Towed decoys for the Geran-2 UAV will reduce the effectiveness of Ukrainian air defense systems by 1,5–2 times

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Towed decoys for the Geran-2 UAV will reduce the effectiveness of Ukrainian air defense systems by 1,5–2 times

High precision weapon long range has always been a very expensive tool for warfare. Let us recall perhaps the most famous long-range precision weapon of its time, the American Tomahawk cruise missiles (CR), launched from surface ships and submarines, costing millions of dollars - a kind of “silver bullets” for hitting particularly important targets.

For quite a long period of time, everything remained the same - long-range precision weapons were still very expensive, regardless of the type of carrier - surface ship, submarine, strategic bomber or ground-based launcher, such as - cruise missile, short-to-medium-range ballistic missile, or aeroballistic missile, regardless of the country of production - USA, Russia or someone else.



However, the Russian Special Military Operation (SVO) in Ukraine has become the ambassador of a new type of long-range precision weapons, the most important characteristic of which is low cost - of course, we are talking about kamikaze unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) of the Geranium-2 type.


UAV-kamikaze "Geran-2"

While inferior to cruise, ballistic and aeroballistic missiles in flight speed and warhead power, the Geranium-2 kamikaze UAVs are comparable to them in terms of range of use and accuracy of hitting the target, and the warhead of a lower power is often sufficient to destroy given targets.

At the same time, low flight speed in some cases is not a disadvantage, but an advantage - just remember the case when a Ukrainian MiG-29 fighter knocked itself out with the debris of a Geranium it shot down - a good exchange, a kamikaze UAV for a fourth-generation fighter, but on in its place there could be an F-22...

Application tactics


Judging by information from open sources, the Geran-2 kamikaze UAV initially flew at a relatively low altitude.

On the one hand, this reduces the detection range of enemy radar stations (radar), on the other hand, it allows you to detect a UAV by the sound of the engine, visually, by optical reconnaissance means, and then attack it with the entire range of weapons, including small arms, rapid-fire small-caliber automatic guns ( including shells with remote detonation) and man-portable air defense systems (MANPADS).

“The American company ABC reports that Australia will transfer 110 Slinger complexes produced by Electro Optic Systems (EOS) to Ukraine in 2023. The Slinger complex includes a gyro-stabilized rapid-firing automatic 30-millimeter M230LF cannon with a rate of fire of up to 200 rounds per minute. The ammunition used is high-explosive fragmentation projectiles with a non-contact target sensor (NDS). Guidance is carried out using a small-sized radar and an optoelectronic complex. Thanks to this equipment, the complex should easily cope with various air targets, including helicopters and UAVs. Ukraine will receive 110 of these air defense systems.”


Slinger complex of the Australian company Electro Optic Systems

In the material “De M-SHORAD air defense laser systems in Ukraine. Will the United States decide to field test the latest weapons in the Northern Military District zone? The author suggested that Skynex anti-aircraft installations from the German concern Rheinmetall, capable of using projectiles with remote detonation on the trajectory, could be sent to Ukraine - at the moment, the delivery of two such systems has already been announced. It is quite possible that the aforementioned DE M-SHORAD laser air defense systems will soon be there, especially since the first samples have already begun to arrive at the US Armed Forces for testing and it is possible that they will still decide to test them in Ukraine.

In May of this year in the material “Gain altitude: new tactics for using the Geranium-2 UAV will allow you to maximally deplete Ukrainian air defense” The author considered the feasibility of increasing the flight altitude of the kamikaze UAV "Geran-2" up to the maximum, which is about 4 meters, possibly more. At such a height, the Geraniums are not dangerous from small arms and small-caliber anti-aircraft artillery; their visual, and most likely acoustic, visibility will also be significantly lower. With a high probability, at an altitude of about 000 meters or more, the Geran-4 UAVs will not be captured by the infrared homing heads (IR homing heads) of MANPADS.

The only threats that will remain are anti-aircraft guided missiles (SAMs) launched by long- and medium-range anti-aircraft missile systems (SAMs). The cost of such missiles is several times, or even several orders of magnitude, higher than the cost of the kamikaze UAV "Geran-2" - it is impossible to give exact figures due to the fact that the author does not know the cost of the kamikaze UAV "Geran-2", according to various estimates, the range is from 20 thousand to 200 thousand US dollars, with most sources leaning towards the first figure.

At the same time, the cost of missiles used by air defense systems produced in Western countries usually starts from 500 thousand dollars and reaches 5 million (!) US dollars. Given this ratio, the tactics proposed in the above-mentioned material “Gain altitude...” of the kamikaze UAV “Geran-2” over enemy targets in order to lure out and dispose of its stockpiles of missile defense systems, and at the same time opening the air defense system, seem to be a completely practical solution.


The cost of missiles for the American long-range Patriot air defense system reaches (or already exceeds?) $5 million

At the final stage, Geraniums must dive with their engine turned off, which will make them an even more difficult target to detect and destroy.

At the beginning of June this year, information came from Russian military correspondents that there were cases of the use of kamikaze UAV "Geran-2" at high altitude, and one of drones circled over the Ukrainian city for more than an hour. A significant number of MANPADS missiles were fired at the Geran-2 kamikaze UAV loitering in the sky, but none of them hit the target, as a result of which the Russian drone completed its mission by destroying the enemy’s ammunition depot.

It is unclear whether this case was episodic or whether the use of the Geran-2 kamikaze UAV at high altitude has become systemic, but this precedent allows us to think about further increasing the effectiveness of the Geran-2 kamikaze UAV in devaluing the Ukrainian air defense system.

Presumably, this can be done by introducing towed decoys into the design of the Geran-2 kamikaze UAV.

"Geranium" with a "tail"


One of the solutions to increase the survivability of aircraft on the battlefield is towed decoys released by the aircraft and accompanying it on a cable combined with power and control cables. In particular, the US Air Force actively uses towed decoys. Such decoy targets include special transponders that simulate the amplified reflected signal of the carrier aircraft to the enemy radar.


The US Air Force and other Western countries actively use towed decoys, for some reason this method of protection has not yet become widespread in our country

In the case of kamikaze UAVs, such decoys are redundant; presumably, everything can be implemented much more simply - the important point here is that kamikaze UAVs of the Geranium-2 type have a small radar signature. Accordingly, corner reflectors or Luneberg lenses can act as the main element of a towed decoy.

Structurally, a towed decoy target can be placed in the upper part of the hull. It is believed that the flight range of the Kamikaze UAV "Geran-2" exceeds 1 kilometers, even if the aerodynamics of the UAV slightly deteriorate and the mass increases slightly, it is unlikely that this will radically reduce the flight range. By the way, at a higher flight altitude the density of the atmosphere is less, therefore, the influence of a towed decoy on the aerodynamics will also be lower.

The design of a towed decoy would presumably include a cable reel, a release mechanism (such as an electromechanical lock), and the decoy itself. In turn, a false target in the simplest case can be three plastic metallized squares, forming eight corner reflectors at the intersection; this entire spherical structure must be placed in a radio-transparent plastic fairing.

Of course, the design of the corner reflectors may be different; the optimal option can only be obtained from the results of full-scale tests; it is possible that the best solution would be to use a Luneberg lens in the design of a towed decoy.


Corner reflector and Luneberg lenses

There is another method that, presumably, will make the signature of a towed decoy even more “attractive” to enemy air defense systems, but we will not discuss it here.

A small but important complication could be the placement of an IR radiation source on a towed decoy target, designed to counter missiles with an IR seeker; of course, it will require a power cable, but this will not significantly affect the dimensions, weight and cost of the towed decoy target, but There is an objective need to counter missiles with infrared seekers.

“The Ukrainian Armed Forces have distributed the first video of the combat use of air defense systems received by Ukraine from Great Britain in early August of this year, using short-range AIM-132 ASRAAM air-to-air missiles with an infrared seeker as missile defense systems. ASRAAM missiles are fired at the Geran-2 kamikaze UAV in the video.


Self-propelled launcher with two AIM-132 ASRAAM missiles with IR seeker based on the SupaCat chassis

An important factor will be the length of the cable holding the decoy target; it should ensure the survival of the UAV carrier when the warhead of the missile defense system is detonated, if it hits the decoy target.

In addition, the distance at which the towed decoy will be from the carrier will influence their perception of the enemy radar - as one target or as several, both have both advantages and disadvantages, however, we will go deeper into this issue neither will we.

And finally, depending on the capabilities of the Geran-2 UAV and the weight and size characteristics of the towed decoys, there can be, for example, two or even three of them, placed sequentially in something like a tube in the upper part of the body and released one after another, like beads on a string.

Even if the use of towed decoys as part of the Geran-2 kamikaze UAV reduces the effectiveness of Ukrainian air defense systems by 1,5–2 times or the enemy’s missile defense consumption increases by the same amount, the effect will be colossal - depletion of missile defense reserves and multi-million dollar losses, both from Ukraine and its Western sponsors.

Exchange of a plastic target worth several hundred thousand rubles for a missile defense system costing hundreds of thousands - millions of US dollars: little can be more effective.


It won't help the enemy


Could the enemy implement the measures proposed in this material in his own kamikaze UAVs designed to attack targets on Russian territory?

Of course, he can, but it will bring him much less benefit, if at all.

The whole problem is that the kamikaze UAVs of the Ukrainian Armed Forces (AFU) are significantly smaller than those of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation (RF Armed Forces), the same is with air defense systems.

Attacks by Ukrainian kamikaze UAVs, especially deep into Russian territory, are based on maximum flight secrecy, which is carried out at the lowest possible altitude. In this case, the towed decoy target will either simply unmask the Ukrainian UAV, or even get caught on some tree or power line.

Will they gain altitude?

Perhaps, but then Russian air defense will spend two missiles on one Ukrainian UAV instead of one, we will incur slightly higher costs, and the enemy will completely lose the chance to strike deep into Russian territory.

Equipped with towed decoys, 50 Ukrainian kamikaze UAVs per month are approximately 100 spent Russian missiles (relatively speaking), and equipped with towed decoys, 50 Russian kamikaze UAVs "Geran-2" per day are about 3 Ukrainian missiles per month. Do they even have that much?

Even if the number of Ukrainian UAVs is multiplied by two, and Russian ones are divided by the same figure, then globally this will not change anything - it is still a one-sided game. The main thing is to maintain the quantity ratio in your favor, with a gap of more than an order of magnitude.

It is worth mentioning one more point - high-tech missiles in Western countries increasingly rely on hit-to-kill - a direct hit on the target, while their warhead (warhead) has minimal power or is absent altogether, while Soviet/Russian missiles are most often used powerful warheads, allowing them to be used even as operational-tactical surface-to-surface missiles, as we have already seen during the SVO. When such warheads are detonated even near a towed decoy target, there is a high probability of destroying the carrier UAV itself.


The tail section of a PAC-3 Cost Reduction Initiative (CRI) interceptor found on a highway in Kyiv, hitting targets with a direct hit, after meeting with an unknown target

Conclusions


The use of towed decoys as part of the Geran-2 kamikaze UAV will make it possible to finally close the issue of Ukrainian air defense, if not by destroying radars and launchers, then at least by the maximum depletion of the missile defense reserves available to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

Reducing the losses of the kamikaze UAV "Geran-2" from the impact of enemy air defense systems by 1,5–2 times is equivalent to a corresponding increase in their production volumes - “saved, counted, earned.” More Geraniums will reach their targets unharmed, more targets on enemy territory will be hit, and fewer kamikaze UAVs will be able to be produced and used against our country.

The use of towed decoys in combination with possible increase in production volumes of kamikaze UAV "Geran-2" will allow for a systematic impact on the enemy, for example, completely disrupt mobilization by destroying all recruitment centers, military registration and enlistment offices and other relevant facilities, or paralyze the Ukrainian economy by destroying cash vaults and shutting down the infrastructure that supports non-cash payments.

Unlike “silver bullets” - complex and expensive high-precision long-range cruise, ballistic and aeroballistic missiles designed only to hit particularly important targets, kamikaze UAVs of the Geranium-2 type can play a decisive role in achieving victory over the enemy during military conflicts due to their mass nature, and the use of towed decoys should contribute to this as much as possible.
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  1. +14
    10 October 2023 04: 53
    Just by the title I knew who the author was. wassat
    Before gushing out crazy ideas, it would be a good idea for the author to inquire about what kind of cargo a relatively small drone with an AP can tow, the required cable length, and the engagement zone of the warhead missile defense system. Also very curious, how will the cable at the back of the UAV be combined with the rotating propeller? what
    1. 0
      10 October 2023 05: 58
      Also very curious, how will the cable at the back of the UAV be combined with the rotating propeller?

      https://i.ibb.co/LvjZ871/1231235561seadsradtsdfg.png
      1. +8
        10 October 2023 06: 55
        Quote: Sunrise
        https://i.ibb.co/LvjZ871/1231235561seadsradtsdfg.png


        How will this rod allow you to tow a radar trap on a cable at least several tens of meters long? And how will the UAV be launched from a standard launcher? Also, I would really like to see calculations of how this will affect the weight and flight range of the UAV.
        1. +3
          10 October 2023 07: 12
          I just figured out one of the options to solve the problem with the propeller. If desired, you can attach two more cables to the two edges of the wing, which are therefore connected into one. Attach the reel to the bait, and attach the bait itself from below so that it does not get caught in the cable when being dropped.
          https://i.ibb.co/7jGMw0N/4.png
          1. 0
            10 October 2023 08: 28
            In principle, a “problem with the propeller” is not really a problem; because can be solved in several ways... But there is also a need to have a modified UAV in order to place both the combat load and decoys with greater convenience! By the way, I once proposed a variant of the “Geranium”, equipped, in addition to the warhead, with “self-defense means” (anti-radar small-sized drones) suspended under the wing... you can look for other places! You can also make “specialized” “Geraniums” (!)...: 1. With an anti-radar seeker; 2. "Stuffed" instead of explosives with dipole reflectors or heat traps, dropped by a signal from a radar irradiation detector or by command of the "leading" ("combat") "Geranium"... It is possible that in the "near future" dipole reflectors will be replaced by microdrones ! But “specialized” “Geraniums” may be deprived of a particularly accurate (but also expensive) INS, GPS module, seeker... A simpler (and cheaper) INS and “radio direction finder” of the “leading” “Geranium” are installed... and the corresponding ones sensors, if necessary... That is, a “master-slave” system is used... Slave “geraniums” are oriented towards “masters”, equipped with appropriate equipment!
            1. +1
              10 October 2023 11: 25
              the solution is even simpler, increase the speed of promising Geraniums to 900 km/h and stabilize the flight with a gyroscope
              and it will no longer be a UAV but -
              guided loitering missile with a coaxial impeller
              and simplified control, only by deflecting surfaces like on KABs
              1. +1
                10 October 2023 13: 28
                Quote: Romario_Argo
                the solution is even simpler, increase the speed of promising Geraniums to 900 km/h and stabilize the flight with a gyroscope

                immediately get Doppler selection of targets by speed (now birds and other tripe have been limited to 200 km/h so as not to overload the operator’s brain)
                + immediately the range will drop (with such a plump and Delt wing) by a factor of 5. It will be up to 300 km
                Quote: Romario_Argo
                missile with coaxial impeller

                A projectile is a type of ammunition for firing guns
                A rocket is something receiving thrust from a rocket engine.
                Traction rocket engine is formed made entirely from the fuel carried inside the rocket.
                for an impeller/propeller, the working fluid is the environment (it is not on board)
                no... it won’t be a “missile projectile”
                1. 0
                  11 October 2023 09: 45
                  We are waiting for a more accurate classification of these ammunition from the Ministry of Defense
            2. 0
              10 October 2023 18: 02
              If the master UAV is shot down, this will mean the loss of the slave UAVs. I think for this reason this whole idea of ​​leaders and followers is more harmful than useful.
          2. +1
            10 October 2023 11: 46
            The idea can be developed even further. Make completely false “Geranium crap”, where there is no expensive targeting complex and there is not even a weighting charge for the UAV. We launch in a straight line towards any city and let the enemy spend his air defense systems on this dummy. It will hit you, don’t mind! This is akin to inflatable models of tanks or airplanes on the ground. A swarm of a dozen of the cheapest dummies, and among them a couple of real ones, with a warhead and targeting. The main thing is to keep your distance based on the scattering of fragments of a rocket or air defense projectile.
            It is clear that at a long distance without control, this “blank” will be strongly blown away by the wind from the original direction and it will be necessary to calculate the drift angle. But aren’t there many targets at distances of 50-100 km from the front line, where demolition will not be so critical for bait work? fellow
            1. +2
              10 October 2023 15: 10
              Quote: Saburov_Alexander53
              Make completely false “Geranium crap”, where there is no expensive targeting complex and there is not even a weighting charge for the UAV.

              the guidance complex there is “merely cheap”
              GPS receiver $3/piece for small wholesale even in the Russian Federation
              ANN is much more expensive
              https://technokauf.ru/catalog/sputnikovaya_navigatsiya_i_oem/inertsialnye_navigatsionnye_sistemy/
              Here are the main costs in the price ($35000) of a UAV:

              well the glider is about the same
              Irkutsk police launched a GPS-equipped UAV to detect black lumberjacks...
              As the press service noted, the issue of purchasing its own drones by the Irkutsk police is not yet being considered due to the high cost of such equipment: the cost of one glider is about 4,5 million rubles. Currently, only in two regions of the Russian Federation the police have unmanned gliders to combat illegal logging.
              1. +1
                11 October 2023 07: 57
                Diger (Johannes), thank you!!! I received a truly sensible answer to my fantasies. I trusted too much in the information that Geran-2 has motors from mopeds at a cheap price. But with GPS guidance, I guess everything is not as cheap as you write. Yes, the receiver itself might. and costs from $3, but the control system does not consist of one receiver. It is necessary to somehow convert the captured coordinates into a command for the control rudders, and this is unlikely to be so cheap.
                But I don't completely give up my fantasies. You can make a dummy Geranium with another motor, a really cheap one, just to carry this model aircraft. And then the airframe itself does not have to be made of expensive composite materials, as long as it is enough for one flight. And in this case, on the contrary, it must be made of a material that perfectly reflects the r/waves of the locator - let them see it and happily shoot it down. fellow fellow
                1. +1
                  11 October 2023 10: 39
                  Quote: Saburov_Alexander53
                  but the control system does not consist of a single receiver. It is necessary to somehow convert the captured coordinates into a command for the control rudders, and this is unlikely to be so cheap.

                  Well, not everything is that cheap.
                  check price by brand (take here)
                  https://energon.pro/komplektujushhie-dlja-upravljaemyh-modelej
                  not difficult
                  ANNs, accelerometers, gyroscopes, etc., etc. from the Chinese (log in with a VPN)

                  Quote: Saburov_Alexander53
                  You can make a dummy Geranium with another motor, a really cheap one, just to carry this model aircraft.

                  Can.
                  But the author, as far as I understand (although I skimmed the article), has an idea: to protect a specific geranium that carries the target load to the target.
                  That’s it, and not to overload the air defense.
                  The bait, of course, should not carry corner reflectors and lenses (geranium radar is not very good at tracking), but should carry an IR source (of the wavelength that I described/calculated below).
                  Released when overcoming an air defense line (previously scouted), or when approaching a protected object, and be detachable. Costs a penny.
                  Even a launch on a geranium 1 (which is unlikely to shoot it down) missiles from the FIM-92 Stinger ($ ~60-70) already justifies the cost of this pepelats.
                  Not a single enemy can survive a salvo launch of 100-200 geraniums.
                  Geraniums need to be produced like matches used to be done under the USSR
                  1. 0
                    12 October 2023 10: 51
                    Diger (Johannes), it’s interesting to be with you! I am pleased to receive information and it makes me go further in search of details at your suggestion. Thank you!
            2. 0
              10 October 2023 22: 25
              balloons inflated with helium with suspended corner reflectors can be released in unlimited quantities in the presence of wind in the desired direction, and let the enemy air defense go crazy.
          3. +2
            10 October 2023 13: 22
            Quote: Sunrise
            If desired, you can attach two more cables to the two edges of the wing

            I'm not good at graphics, but I would do it this way

            Naturally, the “hook” does not rotate with the shaft. Well it's simple
            Quote: Bongo
            And how will the UAV be launched from a standard launcher?

            I would launch an equipped UAV with bait like this (take into account the displacement of the CM, but this is not difficult.
            The size remains virtually unchanged, the reel is in the bait

            Quote: Bongo
            on a cable at least several tens of meters long?

            Why "tens of meters"?
            Radar frequency ranges for weapon control, missile guidance, maritime radar, weather, medium resolution mapping are X. 8-12 GHz. Wavelength 2,5-3,75 cm

            Infrared radiation is invisible radiation with wavelengths from approximately 750 nm to 1 mm.
            Quote: Tucan
            the required cable length and the affected area of ​​the warhead missiles

            Effective radius of destruction of the warhead, m
            the S-300 air defense missile system has -(+/-) 100 m (I doubt that they will be fired at, since launching a missile defense system from this complex for such a target has already justified the cost of this target)
            for the 9M38 missile defense system (and other successors) ~ let it be 25 m
            the rest of the MANPADS have even less.
            With a 90% probability, it can be assumed that at a distance closer than 20 meters from the carrier, the explosion will not cause harm.

            Galvanized steel cable for stretching DIN 3055, 3060, 3068, consists of high-strength wire, galvanized, cross-section diameter ø 1 mm, working load 0,21 kN (21 kg)
            182 meters have a mass of 1 kg
            1*20/182= 101 grams
            if you take Kevlar, then 100 grams can be contained with a coil
            X=ro*Cx*S*V^2/2= resistance force
            C

            ro at these altitudes 0,995 in summer, 1,025 in winter let =1
            S=pi*D^2/4, at 10 cm=0,00785 m^2
            V=180 km/h=50 m/s
            Итого Х= 1*0,38* 0,00785*50^2/2=3,73 recourse Newton
            Check...maybe I made a mistake?
            Well, this is at zero lift, but it is there. Tk K is unknown, let *2
            + cable +~50%
            3,73*2*,15=11-12 Н
            is it a lot or a little?
            MD550 =37kw =50hp
            N(power)= F(thrust ->)*V (speed->)* cos(angle between vectors(->) F and V)
            N (rough traction loss)=12N*50=600 watt=0,816 l/s
            If I haven’t made a mistake anywhere, then these are pennies. So the idea is good.
            In principle, there is nothing overly complicated here, as practice shows


            Grokhovsky's transport air train was supposed to hook up as many as 10 gliders
            1. 0
              10 October 2023 13: 59
              Quote from Digger
              Why "tens of meters"?

              What is the radius of fragmentation of a radar-guided anti-aircraft missile?
              1. 0
                10 October 2023 15: 04
                Quote: zyablik.olga
                What is the radius of fragmentation of a radar-guided anti-aircraft missile?

                How does the radius of dispersion of fragments depend on the wavelength of the electromagnetic (X-ray IR, optics, radio range) used by the guidance system? belay
                what's the connection
                I wrote
                Quote from Digger
                Effective radius of destruction of the warhead, m
                for the S-300 air defense missile system =(+/-) 100 m (I doubt that they will shoot, since the launch of missiles from this complex for such a purpose has already justified the cost of this goal)
                for the 9M38 missile defense system (and other successors) ~ let it be 25 m
                the rest of the MANPADS have even less.
                With a probability of 90% it can be assumed that at a distance closer than 20 meters from The explosion will not harm the carrier.

                No, of course, if you use the V-880N missile defense system with the TA-18 SBC to intercept the Geranium (they are probably all 20kT), but the missile defense system is with
                Quote: zyablik.olga
                radar guidance

                then my thoughts can be thrown into the firebox.
                In this option, the distance and interval in the attack order of the B-52 flight will not help much.
            2. -1
              10 October 2023 16: 57
              Naturally, the “hook” does not rotate with the shaft. Well it's simple

              It's simple, it just requires reworking the engine. A hollow shaft must have a larger diameter to maintain strength. And this will entail a lot of things.
              Why "tens of meters"?

              Then what
              for the 9M38 missile defense system (and other successors) ~ let it be 25 m
              ...
              With a 90% probability it can be assumed that at a distance closer than 20 meters from the carrier the explosion will not cause harm

              Vice versa. A small, densely packed UAV requires much less damage than aircraft. I’m not talking about “25 from the ceiling.”
              made of high-strength wire, galvanized, section diameter Ø 1 mm, working load 0,21 kN (21 kg)

              forgot about the jerk when releasing the trap
              1. +1
                10 October 2023 17: 44
                Quote from solar
                The hollow shaft must have a larger diameter to maintain strength

                there is a hollow shaft
                this cable is hardly more than 1 mm in diameter; the power cable will also fit into the hole in the shaft and fiber
                Quote from solar
                A small, densely packed UAV requires much less damage than aircraft.

                who is easier to hit with a shot from a shotgun, a hare (even if he is standing) or a cow 25 meters away (and no matter how many pellets a cow takes into its carcass, you may not hit the hare at all). The "density" (surface) of fragments drops to ~ 1/R^2
                Quote from solar
                I’m not talking about “25 from the ceiling.”

                why be shy? enlighten. There recourse there are results of explosions
                Quote from solar
                forgot about the jerk when releasing the trap

                do not make me laugh. give me some numbers about the "jerk".
                nothing will be there: the speed is not the same, the midsection of the dropped trap is not the same
                + there is a cord and a reel for compensation.
                Go for it: a car, what kind of highway, where you can reach 150 km/h in a straight line, the deadest fishing rod/spinning rod, the deadest fishing line and a bottle (plastic) of fermented baked milk (0,5 I think is enough), just don’t fill it with mercury
          4. 0
            10 October 2023 14: 07
            You can install a forward propeller in the nose
    2. 0
      10 October 2023 06: 04
      1. Geraniums don’t care what to drag - fuel, a bomb or other payload, such as a cable with snag. Yes, due to a decrease in range or due to lightening of parts of the structure.
      2. I don’t see any problem in fastening the cable. No one insists that the cable dangles directly BEHIND the pusher :) Place the rack on the body on the fairing above or below the propeller. There you hook a small reel with a cable. You also pack them in a fairing. You can add a timer so that the cable starts at a certain time, which can be calculated based on the flight parameters.
      From an engineering point of view, there is nothing complicated at all.
      1. +1
        10 October 2023 06: 35
        Geraniums no matter what you drag

        Oh, how wrong you are, it’s important how to drag. Anything that is screwed on from the outside impairs streamlining and greatly worsens the performance of any mechanism moving in any environment.
        You can check it personally, when driving a car, stick your hand out of the window, you will feel the resistance, as they say, for yourself, but in fact it turns out that you are carrying your hand in the car anyway, but inside the cabin there is no additional resistance, and it’s warmer laughing
        1. 0
          10 October 2023 15: 46
          Quote: Popandos
          Anything that is screwed on from the outside impairs streamlining and greatly worsens the performance of any mechanism moving in any environment.

          yes nothing like .. they fly and don’t fall

          and even satellites with 11,6 km of debris shot down more than 1 ton in orbit

          For speeds of Geranium of 150 km/h and its D-wing it is not critical. The main thing is not to hang it on top of the wing and maintain alignment
    3. +3
      10 October 2023 08: 12
      There's no point in doing this. This time the author's material is more than reasonable. Moreover, it contains a lot of useful information in terms of combat use and further improvement of this class of UAV...
      And answering your question about towing decoys, I can say the following... A motor hang glider (very aerodynamic, isn’t it?) with an engine with a power comparable to a geranium can help an ordinary hang glider take off and gain a couple of thousand meters of altitude. In the case of a towed target, we are talking about a certain corner reflector made of metal slightly thicker than foil and weighing well if one kilogram... Moreover, on a “cable” in the form of a braided fishing line for spinning... So your fears, alas, are groundless .
      1. +2
        10 October 2023 09: 37
        The most expensive thing about such devices is the guidance unit. The rest can be riveted in any quantities. So who’s stopping you from installing a simple course-keeping system instead, and launching it together with a shock specimen? At a ratio of 10 to 1?
    4. +2
      10 October 2023 09: 01
      Quote: Tucan
      Before gushing out crazy ideas, it would be a good idea for the author to inquire what kind of cargo a relatively small drone with PD can tow

      Let the crazy idea
      You do not chop in a haste.
      Call us soon
      Through the bastard of the head physician!
    5. 0
      10 October 2023 18: 38
      What to tow there - a sheet of foil on a long strong thread.
      1. +1
        11 October 2023 11: 20
        Quote: Roman Efremov
        What to tow there - a sheet of foil on a long strong thread.

        The leaf is small, but a drone is not an airplane, every gram counts. And taking into account aerodynamics, this sheet of foil will reduce the flight range very significantly and this will amount to many kilometers. One should not think that modern air defense electronics will not distinguish a target from a towed target. Everything is immediately clear there that the target is the first of the marks flying at the same speed and making the same maneuvers. The value of small UAVs is their cheapness and mass availability. Any complication is clearly not good for them. This makes sense for large attack drones, but not for small ones.
  2. +1
    10 October 2023 05: 09
    Attaching the cable is an easily solved issue, as is leveling the weight and resistance of the decoy. However, it must be tested.
    1. +2
      10 October 2023 06: 01
      Quote from Voronezh
      Attaching the cable is an easily solved issue, as is leveling the weight and resistance of the decoy. However, it must be tested.

      Come on. Calculations for the studio, do not forget also about the dimensions and weight of the winch for a decoy; launching with a dangling cable is not possible. If this concept is ever implemented, it will obviously not be on the Shahed, but on another, much larger UAV.
      1. +5
        10 October 2023 07: 41
        Quote: Tucan
        If this concept is ever implemented, it will obviously not be at Shahed

        Well, you forget that the “Geranium” itself, without any tugs, can become a false target. Just a lightweight drone that confuses enemy air defenses
      2. 0
        10 October 2023 13: 32
        You seem to have a cable there to pull the car, although in fact you need a fishing line to pull a couple of kilos at most. And nothing will prevent you from installing a spring so that the line rewinds when you pick up speed.
    2. 0
      11 October 2023 11: 24
      Quote from Voronezh
      Attaching the cable is an easily solved issue, as is leveling the weight and resistance of the decoy. However, it must be tested.

      Even if you make the reel and cable weightless, then why make it expensive when something is cheap? While you launch one expensive drone, which is easily recognized as the main target (it doesn’t take much intelligence to rework the target selection algorithm), it’s better to release a dozen cheap ones. Even more than half of them will be shot down, but the rest will fly and do what one with a false target cannot.
  3. +3
    10 October 2023 06: 48
    To put it mildly, the author, who has a surprisingly broad outlook and is constantly gushing with extremely original ideas, sometimes does not understand what he is talking about. Quote:
    With a high probability, at an altitude of about 4 meters or more, the Geran-000 UAVs will not be captured by the infrared homing heads (IR homing heads) of MANPADS.

    The heat studied by a 50 hp two-stroke piston engine. quite enough to capture modern cooled IR seekers at a real firing range. Moreover, the Geran-2 UAVs do not fly at such an altitude.
    Quote: Tucan
    If this concept is ever implemented, it will obviously not be on the Shahed, but on another, much larger UAV.

    I agree! Yes
    1. +1
      10 October 2023 13: 34
      Quote: Bongo
      The heat studied by a 50 hp two-stroke piston engine. quite enough to capture modern cooled IR seekers at a real firing range.

      This is not a MANPADS, but a medium-range missile. If geraniums catch these, they will pay for themselves twenty times over.
    2. 0
      10 October 2023 14: 49
      Quote: Bongo
      The heat studied by a 50 hp two-stroke piston engine. quite enough to capture modern cooled IR seekers at a real firing range.

      -The thermal efficiency of a two-stroke piston gasoline engine is 20-25%. They have an injection, charge 25%. That is 35,5 kW in heat. 35,5KW/surface area, then through the inverse square law. But it will be completely clumsy.
      Or so:
      -
      exhaust gases emit energy only in certain narrow spectral bands, which in most cases fall within the absorption bands of the atmosphere. Therefore, the radiation from the products of complete combustion is not detected by IR reconnaissance receivers. The emission of gases becomes noticeable when they contain hot unburnt fuel particles (here, of course, it’s not good for a 2-stroke machine)

      Average values ​​of thermal emissivity coefficients (alfa):
      Exhaust pipes and openings 0,7 - 0,8 (even if the internal combustion engine body will have the same)
      Engine hoods 0,2 - 0,45
      Exhaust gases 0,1 or less
      Buildings, structures 0,5 - 0,6
      For two-stroke engine with air. cooling, operating temperature of the cylinder is 180-195 C (273+195=468K)
      The exhaust gas temperature in the engine cylinders of two-stroke gas engines and compressors ranges from 350 to 480 C (273+480=753K)
      Re=alfa*sigma*T4
      sigma (Stefan-Boltzmann constant) = 5,67∙10^-8 W/(m^2 ∙ K^4)
      Exhaust Re=1823 W/m^2
      Engine Re=1904 W/m^2
      Let's remember old Wien and his law of displacement
      lambda(max)= betta*T, betta=2,89 *10^-3 (m*K)
      lambda(max) exhaust = 3,848 µM
      lambda(max) dv=6,192 µM
      the new improved missile defense systems use improved materials for detectors, which ensure a transition from the near-infrared region of the spectrum
      (wavelength 1–2 µm) to medium (3–5 µm), which corresponds to the most powerful thermal signal generated a torch of gases from the engine of an attacked aircraft (AC)
      The engine radiation will be outside the range of the IR seeker
      The exhaust enters the range, the engine crashes.
      What's on the mind of the FIM-92 Stinger?

      I didn't see it let it be 2 times more effectivethan TSOP4856 (Minimum illumination 0.12 mW/m^2). It’s hard to believe, but let it be.
      Chn=0,06 mW/m^2
      Exhaust Re=1823 W/m^2
      Inverse Square Law
      Re exhaust/L^2=0,00006W/m^2
      L~sqrt (1823/0,00006)=5512 m
      taking into account atmospheric interference, radiation patterns, etc., etc.
      It is unlikely that further than 5 km you can escort this moped with a 2-stroke internal combustion engine MANPADS of the FIM-92 Stinger type (what is the last D)?
      request
      because and

      -----------------------------------
      Maybe I'm wrong and messed up somewhere? Please check (if possible)
      But they don’t shoot them down very well
  4. +1
    10 October 2023 08: 39
    At the final stage, Geraniums must dive with their engine turned off, which will make them an even more difficult target to detect and destroy.

    Due to what? No engine sound? The internal combustion engine does not produce much heat...
    1. -1
      10 October 2023 09: 39
      Quote: Bongo
      The heat studied by a 50 hp two-stroke piston engine. quite enough to capture modern cooled IR seekers at real firing ranges. Moreover, the Geran-2 UAVs do not fly at such an altitude.

      Quote: VIK1711
      The internal combustion engine does not produce much heat...
      1. +2
        10 October 2023 12: 48
        Quote: your1970
        The internal combustion engine does not produce much heat...

        Compact UAVs with internal combustion engines successfully shoot down the old Strela-10M2/M3 complexes, not to mention the more modern Igla-S and Verba. Are you going to deny it?
        1. +2
          10 October 2023 14: 39
          Quote: Bongo
          Quote: your1970
          The internal combustion engine does not produce much heat...

          Compact UAVs with internal combustion engines successfully shoot down the old Strela-10M2/M3 complexes, not to mention the more modern Igla-S and Verba. Are you going to deny it?

          fool
          You argue with Vikxnumx - you were given 1+...
          ......and 3 "-" arrived - me
          People TEXT doesn’t read or understand letters at all. Why should I delve into it???
        2. +1
          10 October 2023 15: 13
          Compact UAVs with internal combustion engines successfully shoot down the old Strela-10M2/M3 complexes, not to mention the more modern Igla-S and Verba. Are you going to deny it?

          Those. everyone should observe the massive fall of downed "Geraniums"... Yes, and you can shoot them down with rifle fire. Only for some reason ports, objects in cities,...
          It is clear that there is no full-fledged air defense, thousands of fighters with MANPADS. So why fence the trailer?
          "Geranium" should win by being cheap and widespread. And don’t talk about 100% hits from MANPADS and anti-aircraft missiles!
        3. 0
          10 October 2023 17: 14
          Quote: Bongo
          Compact UAVs with internal combustion engines successfully shoot down old Strela-10M2/M3 complexes

          "Geranium" flies at a speed of 150 km/h, practical ceiling is 7300 m. Let it be 200 m
          FIM-92 Stinger:
          Firing Range: 200-4500 m
          Maximum target height: 3800 m
          This means that this MANPADS can intercept at a range (at a flight level of 200m) up to 5000 m (we will not take into account any cosines of elevation angles up to 3000m

          Those. one shooter must be no further than 5 km (perpendicular) from the Geranium flight path (actually no further than 3000m)
          1 shooter covers 10 m and an area of ​​000 sq. km.
          LBS line
          2022 Gerasimov belay stated that the length of the line of combat contact in Ukraine stretches for 815 km

          the length of the border between Ukraine and Russia is 2295 km (well, if we take Belarus + 1084 km)
          2295/10=230 shooters with MANPADS must be on duty
          But they have a problem

          mathematical expectation of detection range and standard deviation of detection range
          Due to the fact that the Strela 10M2 air defense system can only launch a missile
          after capturing a target, taking it for tracking (tracking seeker), and also taking into account the fact that
          that the target should be in the launch zone at this moment, and taking into account the firing cycle, etc., etc., it turns out (the picture is bad)

          + this

          you must have at least 5 times more "shooters"
          i.e. under 1000 positions and under 3000 “shooters” (they need to sleep, eat, etc.) + the same number of assistants (need to be carried, viewing angle, need to be covered from the DRG).
          and if it “slipped through”: a second echelon of defense is needed.
          There is no point in blocking the “front line”.
          Means to overlap/cover objects
          Everything seems simple. The area of ​​Kiev is 839 sq. km (and 110 km in circumference if it were round) and only 10-11 MANPADS (with arrows, of course) are enough to completely cover the sky of the “mother of Russian cities” .... from Geraniums. ....
          From one geranium... which can fly from nowhere. And if there are 100 of them
          But it's not like that.
          And how many Kievs, and other “real estate objects”
          I will assume that Ukrainian MANPADS are effective against “geraniums” only in the reports of the Zbroin forces of the former Ukrainian SSR. Look, they are as fast as they can be in a cart (they only get confused in the readings)

          They learned something similar from the famous lieutenant general.
          It only seems to me that the S-125 is being operated (I’m not an expert) by the air force command of the Pivden in the Odessa and Mykolayiv regions
          [media=https://youtube.com/shorts/Sc8ddhMaWGQ?si=YmLD_d54tDNDxLbF]
          not?
          (The USA supplied 1400 Stingers, Germany about 1500, + some other little things..)
  5. 0
    10 October 2023 08: 42
    Remove 5 kg from the combat load and load with cut foil. As soon as they enter the affected area, they drop one pack at a time
    1. +6
      10 October 2023 10: 47
      Quote: APASUS
      Remove 5 kg from the combat load and load with cut foil. As soon as they enter the affected area, they drop one pack at a time

      Air defense has long learned to combat passive interference: the SDC is a system for selecting moving targets based on the Doppler effect. It was even on my ancient S-125.
      1. 0
        10 October 2023 13: 00
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Air defense has long learned to deal with passive interference:

        A relative of mine studies at the department on the topic of electronic warfare, and so he claims that no. I won’t argue, the topic is not really mine
      2. 0
        13 October 2023 01: 09
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Air defense has long learned to combat passive interference: the SDC is a system for selecting moving targets based on the Doppler effect. It was even on my ancient S-125.

        Approximate values ​​of the passive interference suppression coefficient:
        - pulse radar (external coherence) - 30-40 dB;
        - coherent-pulse radar (internal coherence) - 40-50 dB;
        - pulse-Doppler radar - 80-90 dB;
        - continuous radar - 90-100 dB.
        This is without active interference (illumination of the dipole cloud). And DRFM allows you to suppress SDC.
    2. 0
      10 October 2023 15: 28
      Quote: APASUS
      Remove 5 kg from the combat load and load with cut foil.

      Yes, they are not sighted by radar.
      such low-speed targets are immediately cut off by the echo of old Doppler: Point interference - reflections from birds, wind generator blades, individual tall buildings, and the like. Moving point passive clutter is sometimes called "angels". Flocks of birds or swarms of insects can generate interference, which can be difficult to select due to their similarity, in some respects, to aircraft.


      otherwise there would be porridge with milk on the operator’s screen
      foil won't help.
      Moreover, the speed of it (the foil) will decrease with the shooting time ~ 41 m/s- (0,2-0,4)*t*41 m/s.
      after a time = 5-3 seconds it will become horizontal zero and crumble to the ground
  6. -1
    10 October 2023 08: 43
    . the cost of the kamikaze UAV "Geran-2", according to various estimates, ranges from 20 thousand to 200 thousand dollars

    And it depends where this Geranium was released. If abroad, then one price. And if we have it, then it’s completely different.
    1. 0
      10 October 2023 15: 50
      Quote: Stas157
      And if we have it, then it’s completely different.

      Is it more expensive in Russia?
      Taking into account:
      - loading/unloading
      -transport shoulder
      -customs clearance
      -cost of assembly site
      - labor costs
      -you need to purchase a setup station (it already paid for itself there 5 years ago in the co-ve), but in the Russian Federation it will have to
      - in the assembly kit one block is defective -> again, new logistics, and the product just sits there, takes up space, wastes resources.
  7. +1
    10 October 2023 08: 49
    My amateurish-sofa opinion is that for such purposes you need a completely new drone, without a battery. With cameras, radar sensors and decoys, with very fast feedback from combat assets. (can be made returnable) Flies out, opens, hands over and dumps into the sunset.
  8. +2
    10 October 2023 09: 14
    This is the best cockroach trap I have ever seen. Mitrofanov - bravo! I haven’t seen such a number of coming outs on VO for a long time. The discussion is led by a separate division of ordinary people in saucepans on their cozy seats. And all these people “do not see problems” not only in aerodynamics and radar, their everyday experience is enough to submit an application to the presidium without waking up from a coma. And Mitrofanov with the holy banners of the acolyte level 80 reveals to mortals the secrets of levitation in 5 lessons.
  9. -1
    10 October 2023 10: 30
    There is another option, to release some of the Geraniums as bait for air defense, i.e. the most simplified configuration: without a warhead and with an extremely simplified guidance system (a compass is quite suitable :)) attacks launched en masse in the first wave to open and overload the air defense, but in the second wave it’s already...
  10. 0
    10 October 2023 11: 08
    The proposal is interesting, but a number of emerging issues are not addressed:
    1. How to set the dive moment?
    When flying at a minimum altitude, seconds pass between the moment the engine turns off upon reaching the specified coordinates and the collision with the target, and if the dive is made from a kilometer altitude? Where will the device go? Hell knows.
    2. When should a towed decoy be activated? When irradiated by radar? What if there is a long time interval between irradiation and rocket launch? How far will the device fly? And with a target crumpled by a rocket explosion?
    These are management issues, the solution of which can turn a penny device into a ruble device, depriving it of its main advantages.
    Although the idea of ​​​​shooting traps is very tempting - you can even consider the option of “skin shedding”, when a thin shell is shot off, repeating the shape of the fuselage or head fairing, made of fine-mesh material that reflects radio waves. This can be aluminum foil, embossed with corner shapes, and covered with a light radio-transparent layer that smoothes out the aerodynamic resistance of these corners. The main question is when to do it.
    Diving from a high altitude can also be refined by issuing a command for it ahead of the given coordinates, but the accuracy will still suffer.
  11. +4
    10 October 2023 12: 48
    Well, what kind of stupidity is it for a combat strike UAV to drag a target projectile behind it? That's not what it's intended for. Lamers-Mitrofanushki filled the media and the Internet.
  12. 0
    10 October 2023 13: 00
    Quote: VIK1711
    The internal combustion engine does not produce much heat...

    But yes, as it turned out, the use of stationary, mobile and portable MANPADS with an infrared seeker turned out to be not as effective and economically justified against the Shahed-136 as the use of banal radar equipment in combination with anti-aircraft artillery (including large-caliber machine guns of the “Gepard” type).
    1. 0
      10 October 2023 13: 37
      What about cheetahs? There are quite a few videos of the downing, but for some reason the numerous cheetahs are not able to protect the few ports.
  13. 0
    10 October 2023 14: 13
    The article is some kind of nonsense. The author does not have even the slightest idea about aerodynamics. Any towed load on the cable will create turbulence incompatible with flight. There's not even anything to discuss here. Reducing the visibility of geraniums is only possible through the use of a quieter and more economical engine, as well as lighter radio-absorbing materials for the body structure. It is also possible to provide for the installation of several heat traps.
    1. +1
      10 October 2023 16: 02
      Quote from Alorg
      The article is some kind of nonsense. The author does not have even the slightest idea about aerodynamics. Any towed load on the cable will create turbulence incompatible with flight

      Yes Yes


      here's a typhoon

      towed by ALE-50

      100m carbon cable, including fiber optic and power cable
      BAE Ariel that is deployed using a 100m kevlar line that contains a fiber optic and power cables.
    2. +1
      11 October 2023 11: 28
      As if you have! Anyone can swear, you suggest!
  14. -1
    10 October 2023 17: 04
    Kamikaze UAV "Geran-2" is comparable to them in terms of range of use and accuracy of hitting the target

    There are big questions regarding the accuracy of hitting the target for UAVs. The design of the UAV is optimized for long-distance straight flights with minimal maneuvering, so it will be very difficult for it to dive from 4000 m precisely on the target.
    As for the trap, there is a pilot sitting on the plane who drops them at the right moment. If you drop them at random, or worse, after the launch, this will only improve the detection of the UAV and significantly worsen the aerodynamics. on an airplane this is overcome by a powerful engine, but on a UAV this is not the case. This means a decrease in speed and range.
    As for the IR bait, MANPADS, in addition to the IR heads, have a UV channel.
    If we are talking about more serious air defense systems, there is a matrix seeker; you cannot fool it with a cheap point trap.
  15. 0
    11 October 2023 00: 05
    Wouldn't it be easier to double the number of geraniums and have backup targets along the flight route in case of being shot down?
    .
    Hamas in Israel has shown that in order to neutralize air defense it is more important to deplete it with a large number of cheap and simple missiles and UAVs than to be clever with expensive electronic warfare systems and ultra-modern missiles. 5 thousand geraniums are cheaper than one dagger...
    .
    In general, on the topic of the article. It's nice that design thought is moving in the right direction. The shortcomings of a particular idea are obvious; the author can see for himself how to correct them after ten minutes of reflection, provided he is familiar with modern communications and ballistics.
    1. +1
      13 October 2023 01: 00
      Quote: also a doctor
      Isn't it easier to double the number of geraniums...

      Easier. But then, what should I write an article about in VO?
  16. -2
    11 October 2023 16: 22
    What nonsense? Sometimes it would be nice for the author to have a snack before writing something like this!

    While inferior to cruise, ballistic and aeroballistic missiles in flight speed and warhead power, the Geranium-2 kamikaze UAVs are comparable to them in terms of range of use and accuracy of hitting the target, and the warhead of a lower power is often sufficient to destroy given targets.


    1) Geranium carries only 50 kilograms of explosives, while modern cruise missiles carry 500 kilograms of explosives! Do you feel the difference?
    2) Most Geraniums are found in the depths of Ukraine!
  17. 0
    12 October 2023 04: 13
    It’s better to go into mass production - 10000 pieces per month must be produced at a high-pressure plant like Ukraine. And for this it is necessary to reduce the cost and establish a container production of both the geraniums themselves and the motors for them
  18. 0
    12 October 2023 13: 49
    Yes, no one will do anything listed in the article. We don't like to bother. When the geraniums become 80-90% stray, they will begin to itch.
  19. 0
    13 October 2023 18: 29
    Quote from Digger
    Yes Yes


    Now show us the same picture, but when the towed sheet is broken in several places by anti-aircraft explosions. Powerful turbulence will be provided to you
  20. +1
    2 November 2023 15: 07
    Anti-aircraft missile systems are designed to destroy high-speed maneuvering targets.
    UAVs are not such targets.
    In other words, for air defense, a UAV is “firewood”.
    That is, if there is a need to counter UAVs, you need to make the appropriate equipment, and technically this is not a problem.
    The problem is the suckers running the military-industrial complex, both in the West and here.
    According to various sources, an “iron dome” missile costs from 20 to 40 thousand dollars with a destruction range of 70 km.
    In the case of a UAV, significant ammunition is not required to defeat it, which means that the range of even MANPADS for UAVs can be increased significantly and the cost too.
    1. 0
      2 November 2023 15: 12
      The cost will naturally be reduced
      1. 0
        2 November 2023 15: 20
        And the guidance system needed for a UAV is completely different from that for aviation; it is cheaper.
  21. 0
    11 December 2023 04: 14
    Hmmm. “Good night, kids” - they are resting. Now - Aunt Valya and her “Come, Fairy Tale” (for those who remember it)
  22. The comment was deleted.