Ways to develop and modernize the ZU-23-2 anti-aircraft gun

100
Ways to develop and modernize the ZU-23-2 anti-aircraft gun
ZU-23-2 on an armored personnel carrier BTR-D. Photo by the Russian Ministry of Defense


In 1960, the towed twin anti-aircraft gun ZU-23-2 entered service with the Soviet army. It was intended to combat low-flying targets, and at the time of its appearance it coped with such tasks. Further development aviation reduced the effectiveness of the zushka, but the army is still in no hurry to abandon it. Moreover, using modern solutions and components, this installation can be modernized and made efficient again weapons.



Basic design


The ZU-23-2 product is a towed anti-aircraft gun for military air defense. The unit weighing less than 1 ton is transported on and off-road using a tractor or placed on a suitable chassis. Before combat duty and shooting, deployment is required, which does not take much time. Installation calculation – 5 people.

The installation is built on a carriage with wheels. Its lower part is made in the form of a platform with supports lowered to the ground; the wheels are raised. A rotating platform-machine with a swinging installation of guns, ammunition boxes, shooter stations, etc. is mounted on it. The design of the carriage provides for circular horizontal guidance and elevation angles from -10° to +90°.


Anti-aircraft installation with additional armor on the Ural vehicle. Photo by the Russian Ministry of Defense

The ZU-23-2 is equipped with two 2A14 automatic cannons of 23 mm caliber. They have a rifled barrel with a length of 87 klb and automation based on gas removal with locking with a wedge bolt. Rate of fire – 1 thousand rounds/min. on the trunk. The initial velocity of the projectile is at least 950 m/s, depending on the type of ammunition. An effective fire range of 2,5 km and an altitude reach of 2 km are provided.

The guns use a 23x152 mm shot. Ammunition is supplied by belts on both sides. In our country and abroad, a fairly wide range of 23-mm projectiles for various purposes with different characteristics has been developed.

To aim the guns, the gunner uses the ZAP-23 artillery sight. Direct aiming control is carried out using flywheels. High guidance speeds are provided, thanks to which the ZU-23-2 can accompany and attack air targets at speeds of up to 300-400 m/s.


Installation of ZU-23/30M1-4 with a modern control system. Photo by PEMZ

Mobility issues


The ZU-23-2 in its basic configuration is towable and requires a tractor. In addition, deployment to a position is required before firing begins. All this to some extent complicates operation and combat use. However, it is not difficult to get rid of such restrictions.

Small dimensions and weight allow the “zushka” to be placed on various self-propelled chassis. Almost any suitable truck can be used as the latter. Also ZU-23-2 were and are being installed on MT-LB, BTR-D, etc. transporters. Due to this placement, the mobility and mobility of the installation is dramatically improved, and it also becomes possible to keep the installation in a combat-ready position without wasting time on deployment.

Radical solutions are also possible. Thus, at the Army-2023 forum, the Kizlyar Electromechanical Plant concern showed a prototype of a self-propelled unit based on the Typhoon-VDV armored car and ZU-23-2. The latter was rebuilt into a full-fledged remote-controlled combat module and placed on the pursuit vehicle without the possibility of removal and use in its original towed form.


ZU-23/30M1-4 with an optical-electronic sight and MANPADS. Photo Vitalykuzmin.net

Management tools


A number of shortcomings of the ZU-23-2, from a modern point of view, are associated with obsolete sighting devices and guidance means. The standard sight can only be used during daylight hours, and also places the bulk of the calculations on the gunner. In turn, manual guidance drives increase the load on a person and reduce the time of his effective work.

Modern technologies can solve both problems. Thus, in recent decades, a number of ZU-23-2 modernization projects have been created in our country, providing for the introduction of electronic control systems. All of them are built on general principles, but new solutions are also proposed.

In such projects for upgrading the gun, the standard sight is replaced with a full-fledged optical-electronic station with day, night and laser rangefinder channels. Such sighting devices are interfaced with digital control systems, including a ballistic computer, automatic target tracking, monitor for issuing video signals and data, etc. A number of projects provide for the possibility of receiving target designation from the outside for immediate shooting at a target.


Automated installation of ZU-23AE (in the foreground). Photo Telegram / "Military informant"

Manual drives are being replaced by electrical systems with remote control. Thanks to this, instead of flywheels, more convenient and ergonomic controls appear at the operator’s seat, and it also becomes possible to automate aiming. In addition, now the carriage with the artillery unit and the operator-gunner's workplace can be separated.

Weapons development


A pair of 23 mm cannons with a total rate of fire of 2 thousand rounds/min. is a serious fire weapon. As practice shows, such weapons are still capable of fighting a wide range of air and ground targets, including protected ones. At the same time, there are ways to further increase firepower and overall combat effectiveness, incl. with new features.

The traditional way to improve the firing characteristics of the ZU-23-2 in recent decades has been the development of new ammunition. For the 23x152 mm shot, projectiles for various purposes with improved characteristics were created, and the bulk of such projects appeared abroad. Apparently, the potential of 23-mm shells has not yet been exhausted, and new fragmentation, armor-piercing, etc. shells can be created. ammunition with higher performance.


Armored car "Typhoon-VDV" with an armored fighting vehicle based on the ZU-23-2. Photo "Concern KEMZ"

The firing characteristics of a zushka can be significantly affected by a projectile with a programmable fuse. With its help, the installation will be able to more effectively attack any “soft” ground and air targets. Such ammunition is of particular interest in the context of combating UAVs. The ability to create a cloud of fragments at a specific point in space will dramatically increase the likelihood of hitting a small and/or maneuvering target. In recent years, the domestic defense industry has repeatedly reported on the development of programmable fuses, incl. for 23 mm shots.

In a number of domestic and foreign modernization projects, the artillery unit of the ZU-23-2 was supplemented with a missile unit. In this case, an additional launcher for portable air defense missiles appeared on the carriage. The use of missiles was ensured by a modernized control system with appropriate instruments. The presence of MANPADS significantly increases the range and height of target destruction.

Potential for modernization


The ZU-23-2 anti-aircraft gun, created more than 60 years ago, is still of interest from the point of view of further development and modernization. A pair of 23-mm guns have fairly high tactical and technical characteristics that can still be used today. At the same time, new targets for them have appeared above the modern battlefield - small and medium-sized UAVs entering the affected area.


Self-propelled gun ZAK-23E with 2A14 guns. Photo Telegram / "Military informant"

Other elements of the ZU-23-2 do not always meet modern requirements. Therefore, the bulk of projects for upgrading the gun gun include replacing certain components and introducing new systems, but while maintaining the guns, carriage elements, etc. Most often we are talking about replacing the standard sight with electronics and a full-fledged fire control system, improving ergonomics, etc.

The potential of the 2A14 guns can be used in other ways. Thus, at Army 2023 they showed the ZAK-23E anti-aircraft self-propelled gun for the first time. It received an original combat module with a pair of 23 mm cannons. To optimize the layout, they were placed in separate casings on the sides of the module, and the ammunition supply system with belts was placed between them.

Thus, the legendary “Zushka”, despite its advanced age, retains its place in the troops and is used to solve various fire missions. In parallel, the industry offers various options for its modernization to obtain new capabilities and improve basic characteristics. Obviously, the process of updating the original design or creating new products based on it will continue, and the ZU-23-2 will be able to remain in service for a long time.
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  1. -2
    9 October 2023 05: 20
    With a programmable projectile, the caliber will get new life!
    The potential of the 2A14 guns can be used in other ways. Thus, at Army 2023 they showed the ZAK-23E anti-aircraft self-propelled gun for the first time.
    A small mistake, the 2A7 gun from the 23-mm quad automatic cannon AZP-23 “Amur” was used, but this is a development of the 2A14.
    1. +1
      9 October 2023 07: 58
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      the 2A7 gun from the 23-mm quad automatic gun AZP-23 “Amur” was used, in

      Or maybe the expression would be more correct: ... from a 23 mm quad automatic art installations ...?
      1. -3
        9 October 2023 08: 16
        Quote: Nikolaevich I
        Or maybe a more correct expression would be: ...from a 23-mm quad automatic artillery mount...?

        The abbreviation "AZP-23" seems to hint that it is not.
        1. +4
          9 October 2023 08: 50
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          The abbreviation "AZP-23" seems to hint that it is not.

          The expression: “quadruple autocannon...” indicates that exam students appeared long before the introduction of the Unified State Exam in schools! But there is also a correct designation..."quad artillery mount..."! That is, an artillery mount consisting of 4 automatic guns...!
          1. -4
            9 October 2023 12: 05
            Quote: Nikolaevich I
            The expression: “quadruple autocannon...” indicates that exam students appeared long before the introduction of the Unified State Exam in schools! But there is also a correct designation..."quad artillery mount..."! That is, an artillery mount consisting of 4 automatic guns...!
            An artillery mount placed on a self-propelled gun is a GUN!
            The "Amur" gun has two cradles, each of which contains two machine guns. The cradles, in turn, are fixed to the frame, one above the other at a distance of 320 mm... ... The gun has two boxes of 1000 rounds of ammunition (of which the top machine gun has 480 rounds, and the lower one - 520 rounds).

            You shouldn’t give hints about the Unified State Exam to a person who is not comfortable with punctuation marks, but puts a lot of ellipses, mostly where they shouldn’t...
            1. +2
              9 October 2023 20: 06
              Do not be a bore ! I take my own “free approach” to punctuation marks, because... sometimes I don’t like to “clog” a line with them...I put ellipses with pleasure, because I like it...I think that with this I can express my inner attitude towards what is written...
      2. +7
        9 October 2023 09: 38
        Or maybe the expression would be more correct: ...from a 23-mm quad automatic artillery mount

        The correct remark.
        1. -6
          9 October 2023 12: 00
          For example, I see the phrase “four-barreled machine gun.”
          Specifically, the quad gun for the Shilka was called Quadruple installation of 2A7 machine guns and was named:
          cannon "Cupid"
          , which had the index AZP-23 and the index GRAU 2A-10.
          1. +7
            9 October 2023 13: 11
            For example, I see the phrase “four-barreled machine gun.”

            Don’t blame me, but this is the case when “we look at the book and see nothing.”
            A four-barreled machine gun means a four-barreled automatic weapon with a rotating block of barrels.
            These include the Soviet four-barreled machine guns YakB (12,7 mm) and GShG (7,62 mm), and the American GAU-13 cannon (30 mm).





            And the AZP-23 “Amur” is a quadruple installation consisting of four single-barreled guns.
    2. +1
      9 October 2023 14: 36
      What is its fragmentation effect on a Mavik-type air target? At what distance must a projectile explode in order to guarantee that the target will be covered with fragments of sufficient mass and speed?
    3. +4
      9 October 2023 15: 05
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      With a programmable projectile, the caliber will get new life!

      There is no point in making 23mm programmable shells. No. Even if our industry is able to organize their production (which I personally doubt), due to the small amount of explosives in the projectile, they will not satisfy the cost-effectiveness criterion. God grant that we manage to organize the production of such 57-mm shells.
      1. -3
        9 October 2023 15: 30
        This makes sense. If a 57 mm cannon requires a heavy chassis, then almost any chassis, such as the Vystrel or Akhmat armored cars, will be suitable for a 23 mm cannon. In addition, if the design of the installation turns out to be successful, then it can be used on mass-produced armored personnel carriers and for upgrading the BMP-1. Because the presence of anti-aircraft capabilities will increase the performance of light equipment. To the point that large numbers of light armored personnel carriers can be equipped with 23 mm anti-aircraft missile and gun mounts.
        1. +1
          9 October 2023 15: 41
          I won’t argue with a specialist, apparently you understand this better than I do.
          1. -3
            9 October 2023 17: 38
            Does a well-versed specialist know that drones have become the main threat? And accordingly, in order to eliminate the threat from the air, as many light equipment as possible, and not only light equipment, should be able to combat these threats.
            Is someone knowledgeable going to install only 57 mm guns on light armored vehicles? Or is the person in the know going to rely solely on electronic warfare systems?
      2. 0
        9 October 2023 20: 24
        Quote: Bongo
        There is no point in making 23mm programmable shells. Due to the small amount of explosives in the projectile, they will not satisfy the cost-effectiveness criterion.

        I once came across this idea...the “master-slave” method! That is, shells are fired in a burst of, for example, 5 shells... the first shell (the “leading”) does not contain explosives, but is equipped, for example, with a non-contact radio fuse (NV)! The remaining 4 projectiles ("slave") are equipped with miniature "radio receivers" and explosives... it is they that are triggered by the "master" NV... Simultaneous detonation of several "slave" projectiles located close to each other and close to the "master" - this is already “something”! (As the Balbes sang in "Prisoner of the Caucasus"!)
        1. -1
          10 October 2023 16: 20
          Quote: Nikolaevich I
          Quote: Bongo
          There is no point in making 23mm programmable shells. Due to the small amount of explosives in the projectile, they will not satisfy the cost-effectiveness criterion.

          I once came across this idea...the “master-slave” method! That is, shells are fired in a burst of, for example, 5 shells... the first shell (the “leading”) does not contain explosives, but is equipped, for example, with a non-contact radio fuse (NV)! The remaining 4 projectiles ("slave") are equipped with miniature "radio receivers" and explosives... it is they that are triggered by the "master" NV... Simultaneous detonation of several "slave" projectiles located close to each other and close to the "master" - this is already “something”! (As the Balbes sang in "Prisoner of the Caucasus"!)

          The projectiles will be too far apart.
          1. 0
            17 December 2023 14: 31
            They don't explode right away. When a signal is received from the leader, the timer is triggered and after the interval has expired, on approach, they explode at one distance from the target. An integrated timer with a receiver costs 0,001 cents.
      3. 0
        10 October 2023 04: 41
        Quote: Bongo
        ...due to the small amount of explosives in the projectile, they will not satisfy the cost-effectiveness criterion

        A small amount of explosives can be compensated for by more powerful explosives...
        however, we must agree:
        Even if our industry is able to organize their production (which I personally doubt)
        1. +1
          10 October 2023 06: 34
          Quote from tsvetahaki
          A small amount of explosives can be compensated for by more powerful explosives...

          All optimal formulations of high explosives suitable for equipping small-caliber projectiles have long been known. It is impossible to come up with anything fundamentally new in this matter.
  2. +1
    9 October 2023 05: 36
    It was right to compare our modernization options with Polish and Finnish ones. These countries have made very good progress in modernizing the ZU-23
    1. +5
      9 October 2023 15: 20
      Quote: Tucan
      It was right to compare our modernization options with Polish and Finnish ones. These countries have made very good progress in modernizing the ZU-23

      At the end of the 1990s, some of the Finnish 23-mm anti-aircraft guns were modernized. They received a ballistic processor, thermal imagers and a laser rangefinder. This allowed the efficiency to more than double. After modernization, the installations became known as 23 ItK 95.

      Modernized 23 mm anti-aircraft gun 23 ItK 95

      Since 2002, ZUR-23-2KG Jodek-G began to arrive in the Polish Army. Unlike the original ZU-23, the Polish installation is equipped with a combined (day/night) passive optoelectronic sight Prexer CKE-2 and two transport and launch containers with Grom anti-aircraft missiles (the Polish version of the Igla MANPADS). Since 2002, ZUR-23-2KG Jodek-G began to arrive in the Polish Army. Unlike the original ZU-23, the Polish installation is equipped with a combined (day/night) passive optoelectronic sight Prexer CKE-2 and two transport and launch containers with Grom anti-aircraft missiles. The improvement of the ZUR-23-2KG Jodek-G did not stop there. In 2007, military testing of an installation with an improved all-day sight, combined with a laser rangefinder, began, and sub-caliber armor-piercing incendiary and armor-piercing incendiary-tracer shells with an increased initial velocity were introduced into the ammunition load, due to which the effective firing range of the guns increased by about 20%. In 2015, existing installations began to be equipped with a new search and targeting thermal imager.

      Jelcz 442.32 trucks with a fast loading and unloading device are used for the transportation of anti-aircraft installations and calculation. If necessary, fire can be fired from the body.
    2. -2
      17 December 2023 14: 36
      Non-combat prototype. Plastic handles are touching.
  3. +4
    9 October 2023 06: 48
    Dancing with a tambourine. The potential of 23 mm has been exhausted. This caliber has no advantages. When shooting at any target, you need a direct hit. The high explosive and fragmentation effect is negligible.
    Cut the green stuff while there is a lot of ammunition in the warehouses. But nothing more.
    1. -3
      9 October 2023 07: 07
      Quote: garri-lin
      Dancing with a tambourine. The potential of 23 mm has been exhausted. This caliber has no advantages. When shooting at any target, you need a direct hit. The high explosive and fragmentation effect is negligible.
      Cut the green stuff while there is a lot of ammunition in the warehouses. But nothing more.

      The caliber is well suited for hitting helicopters and attack aircraft, which have some armor. It’s just that now attack by helicopters and airplanes is becoming a thing of the past, which means that anti-aircraft artillery against them is not really needed.
      1. +3
        9 October 2023 13: 33
        Quote from Escariot
        The caliber is well suited for hitting helicopters and attack aircraft, which have some armor.

        For air defense, the 23-mm caliber was recognized as insufficient back in the 70s: the effective range of fire was too short to combat attack aircraft and helicopters. Even 30 mm was considered not long enough to work alone.
        As a result, the Tunguska appeared, in which the MZA was supplemented with missile defense systems. More precisely, MZA were additions to the missile unit: to close the near dead zone and work on targets that suddenly appeared in the near zone, for which the missile unit did not have time to complete the “detection-capture-launch” cycle.
        1. -3
          9 October 2023 14: 46
          There are options for additional equipment with anti-aircraft missiles, which is clearly stated in the article. In addition, for light platforms, 30mm guns have too high recoil, or accuracy or ballistics are sacrificed. 23 mm installation is easier, and accordingly, the drive can be faster. “Smart” sights and fire control systems have also appeared, which significantly increase the effectiveness of fire compared to inexperienced gunners.
          The BTR-82A, for example, is not capable of fighting drones in its current form, and they currently pose the greatest threat to armored vehicles. But an armored personnel carrier equipped with an anti-aircraft installation will be able to both fight air targets and work against ground targets.
          Much has changed, the situation should be considered specifically, and not rely on a spherical horse in a vacuum, in the form of general idle reasoning fifty years ago. 50 years ago, the BTR-80 was considered a modern vehicle, but in fact it was already outdated at the time of its release.
          1. +1
            9 October 2023 15: 43
            Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
            There are options for additional equipment with anti-aircraft missiles, which is clearly stated in the article.

            SAM from MANPADS. Which in the same way do not reach attack aircraft and helicopters when aviation uses ATGMs.
            Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
            Much has changed, the situation should be considered specifically, and not rely on a spherical horse in a vacuum, in the form of general idle reasoning fifty years ago. 50 years ago, the BTR-80 was considered a modern vehicle, but in fact it was already outdated at the time of its release.

            If the BTR-80 was considered modern 50 years ago, but in fact is outdated, then what can we say about the 23-mm AZP, which 50 years ago already considered obsolete? wink
            1. -4
              9 October 2023 16: 11
              The BTR-80 was just outdated at the time of release, because they did not install a 23 mm cannon on it, but left the same KPVT in a primitive turret, even without a hatch.
          2. +2
            10 October 2023 15: 48
            50 years ago, the BTR-80 was considered a modern vehicle, but in fact it was already outdated at the time of its release.

            Well, skip ten years. It went into production in 1984.
        2. +3
          9 October 2023 20: 58
          Quote: Alexey RA
          For air defense, the 23-mm caliber was recognized as insufficient back in the 70s
          Will you tell this to the pilots of attack aircraft and vertical aircraft who flew in Afghanistan under fire from the DShK? Choate 12,7 was a very significant threat.
          1. 0
            10 October 2023 10: 17
            Quote: DrVintorez
            Will you tell this to the pilots of attack aircraft and vertical aircraft who flew in Afghanistan under fire from the DShK?

            Don’t confuse the Zusuls’ smoking of cast iron with war. At the 23-mm ETVD they could only observe through the sight the ATGM launches. There, the calculation was based on the "TOU" and the first "Hellfires", for protection against the carriers of which even a 30-mm ZSU was not enough - it was necessary to fence in air defense missile systems.

            And in Afghanistan, MANPADS put an end to classic infantry air support. After them, attack aircraft turned into IBA - work from 6-7 km, one approach to the target, no repeated approaches and consistent defeats FROM the enemy.
      2. -2
        10 October 2023 07: 56
        This caliber became outdated for air defense purposes, in terms of range, about 40 years ago. Both the helicopter and the attack aircraft will cover it without entering the effective fire zone.
        1. 0
          17 December 2023 14: 42
          They'll cover it. And they will shovel it away from the neighbor. How many attack aircraft and helicopters are there in the army and how many of these are there in the army...
          1. 0
            19 December 2023 11: 25
            The helicopter with its gun will dismantle such a setup without entering the effective fire zone of 23 mm. He will sort it out together with his neighbors.
    2. -1
      9 October 2023 20: 31
      Quote: garri-lin
      The potential of 23 mm has been exhausted. This caliber has no advantages. When shooting at any target, you need a direct hit. The high explosive and fragmentation effect is negligible.

      Read this...
      I once came across this idea...the “master-slave” method! That is, shells are fired in a burst of, for example, 5 shells... the first shell (the “leading”) does not contain explosives, but is equipped, for example, with a non-contact radio fuse (NV)! The remaining 4 projectiles ("slave") are equipped with miniature "radio receivers" and explosives... it is they that are triggered by the "master" NV... Simultaneous detonation of several "slave" projectiles located close to each other and close to the "master" - this is already “something”! (As the Balbes sang in "Prisoner of the Caucasus"!)
      1. +1
        10 October 2023 07: 07
        Hospadeee!!! Well, judging by the comments, you seem to be a smart person. But here they wrote complete nonsense. It’s problematic to fit a regular revolution counter into 23 mm. And then NK and communication. For what???? For the sake of hundreds of fragments of 2-3 goamma???? With less energy than a pistol bullet???? And the flight range of the projectile itself is 3 km maximum??? The accuracy is such that these 5 shells of yours will not even provide a general fragmentation field.
        23mm is obsolete.
  4. -3
    9 October 2023 06: 48
    The ZAK-2023E anti-aircraft self-propelled gun was shown for the first time at Army 23


    Outwardly it even looks very modern, and given the technical capabilities of the guns, we can conclude that it will definitely find its use in the army.
    1. -7
      9 October 2023 10: 50
      If the volume occupied by the combat module inside the hull is no more than that of the BTR-82A, then such a vehicle will be even better armed with a 30-mm cannon. Although there are problems with the variety of ammunition. Anti-aircraft 23-mm OFZT are most likely even more expensive due to the presence of a self-liquidator. And without high-explosive fragmentation ammunition, when firing only armor-piercing tracer ammunition, it is practically a large-caliber machine gun.
    2. +3
      9 October 2023 13: 36
      Quote: rotmistr60
      Externally it even looks very modern

      I am tormented by vague doubts... but how will two air defense stations, separated by more than two meters, work against a tactical UAV, which is half the size in scope?
      And what will happen to the rotation mechanism with such a lever?
      1. +1
        9 October 2023 18: 05
        And no wonder. In specialized anti-aircraft guns, where the artillery part is not made for beauty, even then the dispersion parameters when firing at the estimated ranges are far from desirable. And this is when the axis of the bore(s) passes through the axis of rotation of the turret (the barrels are placed in the center), and the system itself is installed on much more rigid tracks/ground/ship. I can imagine how this “sample” will swing slightly towards the side when firing. And if one of the guns fails... Regarding the caliber, I completely agree with the opinion that “not old, but superstar” (at one time, of course, there was fire - yes, let me remind you that these are the same shells from guns IL-2, which were honored to be implemented in air defense only after the war). Somehow you can still understand what this is still living out its life on board helicopters due to design limitations, but to make something new (!) and ground-based (!) for it... when the notorious 30x165 mm is already considered " rather weak” at the maximum 4-5000 m and almost every iron already has (or soon) its own controlled/adjustable means of destruction at such ranges. It is unrealistic to squeeze new external ballistic feats out of a 23 mm missile, and increasing the range of the next missile is a matter of time/financing. It would be more advisable here not to waste scarce electronics to “upgrade” such insignificant air defense, but rather to quickly distribute everything that is functional from warehouses to enhance the capabilities “against soft targets” where required and move on.
        1. -1
          9 October 2023 19: 40
          What are you going to move forward with? At the moment, all equipment is defenseless against enemy drones. It fights back with bars and nets alone.
          How, if it’s not a secret, are you going to fight enemy drones, especially small ones?
          1. +1
            10 October 2023 10: 27
            Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
            What are you going to move forward with?

            With wheeled R2D2. smile
            Helicopter GSh-23-2 (it should have better relations in terms of dust and maintenance in field conditions) or 2A38 in one unit with EOS and radar.
            Although, when installed on a chassis, the 2A38 armored personnel carrier is no longer a weapon, but an engine. smile
      2. +2
        9 October 2023 23: 21
        Don’t Cheetahs working successfully on Geraniums and Eagles bother you?
      3. +2
        10 October 2023 06: 36
        Quote: Alexey RA
        I am tormented by vague doubts... but how will two air defense stations, separated by more than two meters, work against a tactical UAV, which is half the size in scope?

        Theoretically, this can be solved by “merging” the trunks, when the trajectories intersect at a given point.
        1. +1
          17 December 2023 14: 47
          In practice, the dispersion of a target is tens of meters, so you don’t even need to study this 2 m. Although they teach, there is a convergence of the trunks at half the max. distances.
  5. 0
    9 October 2023 07: 02
    The ZU-23-2 itself is conceptually outdated. Duty in an open installation without appropriate guidance and automation systems is a thing of the past.
    Modern Western systems involve remote control and centralized guidance.
    1. -1
      9 October 2023 10: 22
      Much more often, both manual guidance and automated drive are required simultaneously. Manual guidance allows you to fire when the drive fails and without starting the engine.
      1. +5
        9 October 2023 12: 54
        Manual guidance for air defense tasks is meaningless in modern realities. If previously there were targets for manual guidance, such as planes attacking a covered point at point-blank range, now, even with the use of unguided means, the range of destruction from the air is several times greater than the range of action of this missile. And for purposes with a certain exchange rate parameter, i.e. flying past the charger, manual guidance generally has about zero effectiveness. Even the completely automated TOR air defense system with guided missiles used to have very big problems with this, let alone aiming “by eye” a line of unguided projectiles.
        IMHO, this memory is conceptually dead, and no amount of automation can revive it. She is even unable to cope with slow-moving drones. With large drones, because they fly too high and far, and with small ones, because it is unable to hit them, even with automated guidance. However, anything can be revived - remote detonation, automated guidance, but it will be an absurd homunculus with a disgusting efficiency/cost parameter. What is needed is a normal automatic gun with a large caliber, not too fast-firing, for example, the one in the Derivation topic, 57 mm, the projectile of which will normally fit bulky domestic electronics, and which can already (necessarily) be made controllable (to hit maneuvering targets and targets with a parameter), and the target consumption of these expensive projectiles (the price of which depends mainly not on the caliber, but on the control module) will be measured in units, not tens.
        1. +2
          9 October 2023 14: 24
          There are many ZU-23-2s and they are relatively easy to upgrade; if remote detonation really exists in the format of a 23-mm projectile, this will be enough against small drones. Shots for derivation only exist in mock-ups (it’s good if), and the machine itself with the module does not appear anywhere at all.
          1. +3
            9 October 2023 15: 22
            .
            Quote: LastPS
            There are many ZU-23-2s and they are relatively easy to upgrade

            In an economic sense, there is no critical difference between a gun from a warehouse and a newly produced one. In the price of the entire complex, the price of the gun itself is somewhere in second to last place. The lion's share will be taken up by the armored chassis, communication, detection, guidance, and control systems, which for both systems will be approximately the same in cost. Plus the expensive shells themselves are fired for the allotted resource, and the less they are spent on the target, the higher the economic efficiency of the system. Unless you don’t have to waste time and resources on producing the gun itself. But these expenses are not wasted (as if there is no difference, why pay more), but are very justifiably necessary both in the economic sense (the cost of hitting a target is lower) and in the combat sense (it is incomparably easier to create a guided projectile).
            Quote: LastPS
            if remote detonation really exists in the 23mm format... Derivation shots only exist in mock-ups (it’s good if)

            It’s not a problem to create, it was announced and shown a long time ago, the problem is to produce. If it were possible to implement this in industrial quantities in the 23 mm nanoformat, then with the overall 57 mm there would be no problems at all, and even less of them are needed for the target, by an order of magnitude. Since neither one nor the other is seen or heard, it means that everything is very bad with production, and if an unexpected breakthrough occurs in their production (the only hope is for Chinese components), then naturally the larger caliber will be a priority, as it is easier to implement and more economical .
            1. -1
              9 October 2023 23: 10
              Quote: Passing by
              then with an overall 57 mm there would be no problems at all

              they wanted to make the projectile for derivation completely controllable in a laser beam, there most likely the price was for a small batch like the anti-tank gun. But you need a lot of them, and you can’t show them at the parade, which is why, apparently, they didn’t buy them. 23 mm purely with detonation could be useful, but it’s better to do 30 mm, for them at least there will be a lot of different carriers with efficient men inside. And from the gunship, a couple of privates will fire shells into an apartment in Moscow in a minute to hit the Mavik and that’s it
          2. +6
            9 October 2023 15: 27
            Quote: LastPS
            if remote detonation really exists in the format of a 23 mm projectile, this will be enough against small drones.

            No, it does not exist. No. Estimate how much explosive will fit into a 23-mm projectile if more than half of it is occupied by a programmable remote or radar fuse. In general, making “smart” shells in a caliber less than 35-40 mm is pointless.
        2. -3
          9 October 2023 14: 50
          Manual guidance is required for security and escort missions. Mainly required for working against ground targets.
        3. +2
          9 October 2023 21: 11
          Do I understand correctly that you consider the derivation, which does not exist in commercial quantities (which is the ZSU 57-2, so) to be more effective than the existing ZSU23 or shilka, which has both a radar and an optical channel in the 4th mid-modification? Maybe a battery of maxims or shkas would be more effective against drones?
          1. -1
            10 October 2023 08: 07
            Quote: DrVintorez
            Maybe a battery of maxims or shkas would be more effective against drones?

            Maxims - maybe. But the trouble is, most of the Maximovs that have survived to this day have worn out ends, and they haven’t made new ones for a long time.
            ShKAS is even worse in this sense. He only needed his own loose belt, equipped with cartridges that only looked similar to the standard 7,62x54R, but in fact were completely different. Mosin or DP will shoot ShKAS cartridges for their dear soul, but ShKAS, if its belt is filled with cartridges made of zinc intended for infantry, will jam in the first burst. So these cartridges were made on a separate line from special components. Most likely, all these lines, both the cartridge line and the one for stamping belt links, have long been scrapped, and even the design documentation for them, if it remains, is only a miracle.
          2. -1
            10 October 2023 10: 31
            Quote: DrVintorez
            Do you think the derivation, which does not exist in commercial quantities (which is the ZSU 57-2, so) is more effective than the existing ZSU23 or shilka, which has both a radar and an optical channel in the 4th midification?

            1) You need to add a hundred times more to the existing ZSU23 so that it starts shooting down drones. So there is no significant difference in price between making a normal system from scratch, including the correct gun, and putting it on exactly the same normal system, a meaningless, rusty ZSU23 from warehouses.
            2) An ordinary Shilka will not see a small drone with a radar. And accordingly, it will not determine the range to it (it does not have a laser range finder). And accordingly, in principle, he will not be able to shoot at him. Those. it doesn't matter how many there are in warehouses. All electronic components, including guidance drives, must be thrown out and a new one installed. Such modernization will cost comparable to the production of a normal 57 mm complex from scratch. For example, upgrading to the T-90M costs 2,5 million dollars for our Defense Ministry, export prices for the T-90S are 2,5-4,5 million dollars. Those. There are domestic prices, there are export prices, conditional parity.
            3) The “newest” M4 does not have an optical channel, only the “newest” (projects are fifteen years old) M5 does. Note, optical, but not thermal imaging. Those. there will obviously be big problems with detection. Although there is a laser rangefinder. Those. theoretically it will be able to shoot at small drones. Shoot, but don't shoot down. Due to the low accuracy of the guidance drives (developed in the 60s), due to the huge dispersion of projectiles from high-rate firing from four spaced apart barrels. But all these nuances do not matter - whether M4 or M5, there are exactly ZERO vehicles in service. Those. the project needs to be reworked, then the warehouse stocks must be modernized, and this will cost, see point 2, and what is the point of doing a much worse thing for about the same money?
            Quote: DrVintorez
            Maybe a battery of maxims or shkas would be more effective against drones?

            For proposals like let's shoot down everything with gatlin guns, machine guns, etc., we should put them in prison right away! Joke. What about friendly fire? Lethal range of a bullet per kilometer. Imagine a barrage of hundreds of bullets covering unsuspecting soldiers, for example, peacefully eating in the bushes, relaxing in a truck on the horizon, walking in a column along the side of the road. You have no way of determining where anyone is in a circle with a diameter of two kilometers. And firing blindly at a melting barrel right in the center of your troops is definitely a bad idea. And I’m not saying that the enemy, when he misses a counter, will simply approach the target behind our guys!
            1. -3
              10 October 2023 16: 29
              Quote: Passing by
              Quote: DrVintorez
              Do you think the derivation, which does not exist in commercial quantities (which is the ZSU 57-2, so) is more effective than the existing ZSU23 or shilka, which has both a radar and an optical channel in the 4th midification?

              1) You need to add a hundred times more to the existing ZSU23 so that it starts shooting down drones. So there is no significant difference in price between making a normal system from scratch, including the correct gun, and putting it on exactly the same normal system, a meaningless, rusty ZSU23 from warehouses.
              2) An ordinary Shilka will not see a small drone with a radar. And accordingly, it will not determine the range to it (it does not have a laser range finder). And accordingly, in principle, he will not be able to shoot at him. Those. it doesn't matter how many there are in warehouses. All electronic components, including guidance drives, must be thrown out and a new one installed. Such modernization will cost comparable to the production of a normal 57 mm complex from scratch. For example, upgrading to the T-90M costs 2,5 million dollars for our Defense Ministry, export prices for the T-90S are 2,5-4,5 million dollars. Those. There are domestic prices, there are export prices, conditional parity.
              3) The “newest” M4 does not have an optical channel, only the “newest” (projects are fifteen years old) M5 does. Note, optical, but not thermal imaging. Those. there will obviously be big problems with detection. Although there is a laser rangefinder. Those. theoretically it will be able to shoot at small drones. Shoot, but don't shoot down. Due to the low accuracy of the guidance drives (developed in the 60s), due to the huge dispersion of projectiles from high-rate firing from four spaced apart barrels. But all these nuances do not matter - whether M4 or M5, there are exactly ZERO vehicles in service. Those. the project needs to be reworked, then the warehouse stocks must be modernized, and this will cost, see point 2, and what is the point of doing a much worse thing for about the same money?
              Quote: DrVintorez
              Maybe a battery of maxims or shkas would be more effective against drones?

              For proposals like let's shoot down everything with gatlin guns, machine guns, etc., we should put them in prison right away! Joke. What about friendly fire? Lethal range of a bullet per kilometer. Imagine a barrage of hundreds of bullets covering unsuspecting soldiers, for example, peacefully eating in the bushes, relaxing in a truck on the horizon, walking in a column along the side of the road. You have no way of determining where anyone is in a circle with a diameter of two kilometers. And firing blindly at a melting barrel right in the center of your troops is definitely a bad idea. And I’m not saying that the enemy, when he misses a counter, will simply approach the target behind our guys!

              To be fair, we can remember “Hell Night in Los Angeles,” when a flying weather balloon seemed like an airplane to someone. The Americans, being on their nerves from the attack on Pearl Harbor, began to shoot at nothing in vain from everything they had. We spent thousands of shells, but surprisingly no one on earth died from their fragments.
              1. 0
                10 October 2023 19: 46
                A bullet with perfect aerodynamics (and a high ballistic coefficient) falls freely with an energy of approximately 5 J for a five, and 15 J for a seven rifle. The fragments have very poor aerodynamics, their actual BC is 10-20 times worse than that of an automatic five, most of them have a mass in the range of 1-2g, their energy in free fall is measured in fractions of a joule. Those. that bullets and free-falling fragments are practically not dangerous.
                For comparison, at a distance of a kilometer, an automatic five has 130J, a rifle bullet 450J. The first one may kill, the second one will definitely kill.
              2. 0
                17 December 2023 15: 04
                A shrapnel is not a bullet. She falls to the ground with insignificant kinetic energy, almost vertically, even her clothes stop her, not to mention her helmet. The fragment has no aerodynamics. But the bullet retains its lethality, Comrade correctly noted. passing by
    2. 0
      17 December 2023 14: 49
      Yes, sophisticated Western systems suggest. And they don’t even dare appear on the battlefield. Or they appear without any of these. And they get ripped off by simpler opponents.
  6. The comment was deleted.
  7. +3
    9 October 2023 07: 16
    They did not mention the most popular modification, accessible even to illiterate bearded people in slippers and with diapers on their heads, and carried out by them many times.
    The wheel travel is removed/cut off and the platform is welded/screwed to the cargo bed of a pickup truck, usually a Toyota Hilux.
    Get the Jihad Mobile. As an anti-aircraft gun, it’s nothing, but it’s quite a nightmare for enemy infantry and even light armor.
    1. +2
      9 October 2023 09: 06
      Quote: Nagan
      They did not mention the most popular modification, accessible even to illiterate bearded people in slippers and with diapers on their heads, and carried out by them many times.
      The wheel travel is removed/cut off and the platform is welded/screwed to the cargo bed of a pickup truck, usually a Toyota Hilux.
      Get the Jihad Mobile. As an anti-aircraft gun, it’s nothing, but it’s quite a nightmare for enemy infantry and even light armor.

      The question immediately arises: why a dual installation against infantry and light armored vehicles? A high rate of fire is not needed.
      1. -6
        9 October 2023 10: 18
        It’s simple, on one barrel there is a tape with armor-piercing, on the other there is a tape with high-explosive fragmentation. And the problem with barrel overheating has not yet been resolved using simple methods. Confused mechanics like the 30-mm 2a42 on the BMP-2, with manual belt switching, on a light open installation are unacceptable.
        1. +2
          9 October 2023 15: 49
          Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
          It’s simple, on one barrel there is a tape with armor-piercing, on the other there is a tape with high-explosive fragmentation.

          No need to fantasize. Armor-piercing incendiary tracer (BZT) and high-explosive fragmentation incendiary (HEF) shells are used to fire from the ZU-23 and Shilka. The standard scheme for equipping the belt is: for four OFZ there is one BZT.
          1. -6
            9 October 2023 16: 25
            On the BMP-2, two separate belts are loaded for some reason. They do the same thing with the Terminator BMPT.
            If the installation is automatic, then there are no obstacles to splitting the ammunition into belts and firing, if necessary, from one barrel.
        2. The comment was deleted.
      2. +5
        9 October 2023 13: 54
        Quote from Escariot
        The question immediately arises: why a dual installation against infantry and light armored vehicles?

        Because it already exists - in huge quantities in warehouses.
        1. -5
          9 October 2023 20: 12
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Quote from Escariot
          The question immediately arises: why a dual installation against infantry and light armored vehicles?

          Because it already exists - in huge quantities in warehouses.

          I think somewhere in Siberian warehouses there are still checkers from tsarist times. Maybe we can use it too?
          1. 0
            17 December 2023 15: 07
            If the enemy's cavalry appears, checkers will come in handy. I'm not kidding. Against each weapon, the most effective weapon is the same type and class. Although it would be that the calculations and command better understand and anticipate the behavior and capabilities of the enemy.
  8. -5
    9 October 2023 09: 05
    Explain why it is needed if there is a GSh-30-1 weighing 50 kg (can be carried on the shoulder!) and a much greater high-explosive power of a 30 mm projectile.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. +5
      9 October 2023 10: 39
      However, aircraft guns have their own specifics. And their cartridge is short. The energy of the shot is designed for short-range firing, in short bursts, which are cut off by the aircraft's equipment. Will this gun be able to work on land, where the opposite is true? To build a Jihad mobile - no question. It would be interesting to see. The compactness and weight are impressive.
      But no one ever liked the shower of 23-mm shells.
      1. 0
        10 October 2023 03: 18
        And their cartridge is short

        The same 30x165, only with an electric igniter bushing instead of a primer.
    3. +5
      9 October 2023 14: 05
      Quote: Ambrose
      Explain why it is needed if there is a GSh-30-1 weighing 50 kg (can be carried on the shoulder!) and a much greater high-explosive power of a 30 mm projectile.

      Because the GSh-30-1 is an aircraft cannon. That is, a prima donna, who works in perfectly clean air, shoots only one BC at a time (and 3-4 per day), after which she is serviced by professional specialists.
      Do you want this one? tender violet throw it into the field - with its dust, dirt, fragments, high consumption of shells and maintenance like "what's the regulation - go ahead and shoot".

      The army had a sad experience with the ShVAK-20, which, even after modification at TNSh, gave massive failures in the summer.
      1. +3
        9 October 2023 14: 54
        Nothing to say. In addition, the zushka is MUCH cheaper to produce than the GSh-30.
    4. +1
      9 October 2023 20: 55
      Can you carry an aircraft gun far? and the most interesting thing is, why?
  9. -6
    9 October 2023 10: 39
    To combat small drones, it is advisable to have grapeshot or shrapnel ammunition for such a setup. This, as with controlled detonation ammunition, is still not clear.
    1. 0
      9 October 2023 15: 00
      Let’s immediately forget about the armored vehicle with controlled detonation. Such a shot will cost more than the installation itself. Even if the target is a helicopter, it is cheaper to “mow” it with regular ones.
      1. -7
        9 October 2023 15: 09
        But today, it seems, it’s impossible to live without buckshot. FPV drones and small ones like Mavic are easier to shoot down with buckshot or darts (flechettes).
        There is no need to rush to conclusions about remote detonation. Such ammunition may appear.
      2. -1
        17 December 2023 15: 19
        Andrey77 Why? Three photodiodes and a cheap specialized IC with a receiver and timer, a battery - cost less than old mechanical tubes. This IC is simpler than a modern 8-bit controller, area less than 0.5 sq. mm, price 10 cents. 130 nm technology is mediocre for Russian microelectronics. Already there, see Derivation, although it’s 57 mm
    2. 0
      17 December 2023 15: 15
      Sergey Aleksandrovich , buckshot has a useless range and firing zone in height.
  10. +3
    9 October 2023 10: 45
    To be honest, the modernization potential of this rarity is very, very conditional. About the same as the T-55 hi the fact that they shove it into all sorts of different Urals and motorcycle leagues is more likely from a bad life than from the good quality of the Zushka.. As an anti-aircraft weapon, it has almost exhausted itself.. Even as a means of combating drones.. (Fire density and dispersion indicators are insufficient, to effectively deal with small devices at distances of more than 500 meters).. Purely theoretically, the creation of a projectile with remote detonation could improve the situation... But... I don’t think this is a good solution due to the small caliber. It would be much more practical to create a projectile with remote detonation in the 30x165 format... Moreover, there have been attempts in this direction.
    1. 0
      9 October 2023 11: 27
      Drones need to be killed with something like a Minigun. Maybe even 5,45 mm.
      1. +1
        9 October 2023 16: 13
        The 5.45 has a short range, like other rifle calibers. And a minigun in caliber 12.7 and above will no longer be economically feasible. The consumption of cartridges (expensive, by the way) will be too high for one small copter. So at the moment, a projectile with remote detonation is the best solution. Especially if the original gun is very accurate.. The guys from Rheinmetall manage to shoot a Mavik with one or two shells at a distance of three kilometers.. The same 3U-23, according to my calculations, at a distance of two kilometers it will require more than a hundred shells.. And she much more accurate than a minigun..
    2. -1
      9 October 2023 15: 26
      You are in a truck, in an urban area. How to film my love on the 10th floor?
      1. -2
        9 October 2023 15: 33
        So in the truck? More likely in an armored car like "Akhmat", otherwise in urban conditions it would be quite sad without armor. That is, such installations still need to be installed on light armored vehicles.
      2. -3
        9 October 2023 16: 17
        Your love on the tenth floor will take you down in the building and in the truck without any grenade launcher if you missed it.. Therefore, don’t make things up, but use the standard BMP-2 or armored personnel carrier gun.. And you will be happy.. And if you have more for this gun and the projectile with remote detonation starts - there will be fire. The guys say that such ammunition from crested Bradleys is almost worse than a tank shell.
  11. +6
    9 October 2023 14: 36
    In general, two qualities in this author are surprising: enviable fertility and the supernatural ability to change shoes several times in one jump and the constant readiness to carry nonsense to the masses.
    Therefore, the author has the American M163 VADS, adopted for service in 1968
    in the early nineties, the M163 became completely obsolete morally and physically

    and ZU-23-2, adopted for service in 1960,
    despite its advanced age, it retains its place in the troops and is used to solve various fire missions
    1. +2
      9 October 2023 15: 28
      Quote from Frettaskyrandi
      and constant readiness to carry nonsense to the masses.

      Let's face it, he's not the only one...
      1. +3
        9 October 2023 16: 12
        he's not the only one...


        nomen illis legio
    2. +2
      10 October 2023 10: 39
      Quote from Frettaskyrandi
      Therefore, the author has the American M163 VADS, adopted for service in 1968
      in the early nineties, the M163 became completely obsolete morally and physically

      and ZU-23-2, adopted for service in 1960,
      despite its advanced age, it retains its place in the troops and is used to solve various fire missions

      Spawn this did not happen, and again the same. smile

      The funniest thing is when the author comes across two products that have a common ancestor. And then you get such examples of doublethink that you could at least send them to the Chamber of Weights and Measures:
      Quote: Alexey RA
      "Neptune" is an obsolete, modified version of the old Soviet-designed X-35 anti-ship missile system. Which, as the author wrote to us a year and a half ago, is one of the best domestic developments in its class, and maybe one of the best in the world.
  12. +2
    9 October 2023 17: 24
    "In recent years, the domestic defense industry has repeatedly reported on the development of programmable fuses, including for 23-mm rounds." It’s just that things don’t seem to have moved beyond “reports of development”! fool negative But such shells were needed “yesterday”, and in different calibers! stop hi
  13. +4
    9 October 2023 20: 53
    please write the author at the beginning of the article. No one needs this information junk. The comments here are more interesting than the article.
  14. 0
    10 October 2023 11: 14
    In the realities of SVO, the 57 mm caliber is more relevant for ZA. But not Derivation, the designers of which followed the path of the Germans with an induction programming sensor; in fact, due to the excessive complication of this ZAK, it is still not in the army. A 57 mm shrapnel warhead can have a significant damage zone (up to 300 meters in depth and 6 meters in diameter) in order to have some error in the detonation distance. That is There is no need to measure the speed of the projectile, but take the statistical average. Therefore, it is possible to automatically set the distance for detonating a projectile before feeding the breech of the gun. Which is simple and cheap.
    1. -1
      10 October 2023 16: 36
      Quote: Alexander
      In the realities of SVO, the 57 mm caliber is more relevant for ZA. But not Derivation, the designers of which followed the path of the Germans with an induction programming sensor; in fact, due to the excessive complication of this ZAK, it is still not in the army. A 57 mm shrapnel warhead can have a significant damage zone (up to 300 meters in depth and 6 meters in diameter) in order to have some error in the detonation distance. That is There is no need to measure the speed of the projectile, but take the statistical average. Therefore, it is possible to automatically set the distance for detonating a projectile before feeding the breech of the gun. Which is simple and cheap.

      Shrapnel charges will produce not a cloud of fragments, but a narrow beam. To hit a moving single target with such a beam is another task.
  15. 0
    10 October 2023 16: 19
    A good thing, but there are always few cartridges.
  16. -2
    10 October 2023 16: 21
    Quote: Alexander
    In the realities of SVO, the 57 mm caliber is more relevant for ZA.

    The most relevant caliber is 88 (Akht-Akht) - universal both against tanks and as anti-aircraft and against armored personnel carriers of motorized infantry.
    1. +1
      17 December 2023 15: 30
      Whoa, there are no longer tanks that can be hit by an 88 mm gun. It's been a long time, about 50 years wink
  17. -1
    11 October 2023 15: 56
    In recent years, the domestic defense industry has repeatedly reported on the development of programmable fuses, incl. for 23 mm shots.

    We can chat...
    Don't do this...
  18. 0
    11 December 2023 22: 57
    my deep couch opinion.
    If the issue of detecting air targets such as Mavik and the like is qualitatively resolved, then using the technology of the Kizlyar plant, it is possible to install a modernized anti-aircraft gun on the BMP 1 during repairs/removal from storage.
  19. 0
    28 December 2023 21: 14
    While there is a stock of 23x152 mm ammunition in warehouses, the ZU-23 needs to be modernized. To effectively “use” the ammunition in stock.
    In general, in my opinion, 23x152 mm ammunition is already obsolete. Now even 30 mm ammunition is ineffective in some cases.
  20. 0
    3 January 2024 17: 18
    Quote: stankow
    They don't explode right away. When a signal is received from the leader, the timer is triggered and after the interval has expired, on approach, they explode at one distance from the target. An integrated timer with a receiver costs 0,001 cents.

    On ALI it’s cheaper than 5 rubles/pcs. This is the cheapest timer. But you probably make them yourself and sell them to the Chinese at exorbitant prices? Or are you just chasing a snowstorm?