The Mauser that never became a submachine gun

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The Mauser that never became a submachine gun
Mauser carbine with detachable stock. Left view. Photo by Alain Daubresse


“...then he opened the treasured closet
and pulled out a hefty Mauser -
ten shot monster
born in the Mauserwerk special department,
favorite, famous in civilian life
the war weapon commissars in dusty helmets,
as well as Japanese imperial officers
in overcoats with dog fur collars.
The Mauser was clean, shining blued,
looks completely ready for battle,
but, unfortunately, with a ground striker..."

“Doomed City”, Strugatsky brothers

History weapons. It often and even very often happens that a previously invented design turns out to be in demand in something slightly different than expected. Or, on the contrary, she begins to lack something in the new conditions. This is how it was with the Germans in the First World War, although not only with them: the soldiers fighting in the trenches needed a short and quick-firing weapon, completely different not only from a rifle, but even from a carbine!



And in Germany, already in 1915, a special commission was created that invited weapons manufacturers to think about just such a model. Naturally, it had to shoot with pistol cartridges, since it didn’t require anything else for short-term combat in trenches, and in addition, it had to have an automatic firing mode.

The first design in this situation was the famous “Lugger” with an elongated barrel and a “snail magazine” for 32 rounds. Of course, the “snail” sticking out of the handle of the parabellum was not very convenient, and it was a typical palliative, but we had to put up with this state of affairs, since more advanced designs had not yet arrived at that time.

It has been said, and not without reason, that bad examples are contagious. Apparently, this is why the specialists of the Mauser Arms Factories did approximately the same thing - they took their C96 self-loading pistol and, after a whole year of work (!), issued a commission for testing the “trench carbine mod. 1917”, firing 9x19 mm Parabellum pistol cartridges.

Moreover, the most surprising thing is that the Mauserists already had a commercial long-barreled carbine and produced it in a small series. It was eagerly purchased by travelers and adventurers of all stripes, and it differed from a serial pistol only in its longer barrel and the presence of a fore-end.

In addition, if an ordinary Mauser had an attached holster as its butt, the commercial Mauser had a removable butt. Before installing it, the pistol grip was removed, and the buttstock, which already had a handle, was installed in its place. The new carbine for the army differed from it only in that it had not a removable, but a fixed wooden butt and fore-end, and a sight designed for a distance of up to 500 m.

So it becomes completely unclear what the Mauserwerke engineers have been racking their brains over for a whole year? True, they provided a limiter on the handle that protected the hand from the blows of the trigger when shooting, but that was all the innovations were limited to!


Mauser carbine with detachable stock. Right view. Photo by Alain Daubresse

By the way, a Mauser holster at that time was not a very simple product, requiring both labor and high-quality walnut wood to manufacture. On its front section there was a steel insert with a locking mechanism for attaching to the pistol handle, and its hinged cover rested on the shooter’s shoulder. The holster could be lined with leather on the outside and have pockets for storing accessories for disassembling and cleaning weapons, as well as spare magazines.

The length of the holster-butt was 35,5 cm, the width in the front part was 4,5 cm, and in the rear part it was 10,5 cm. By attaching it to the pistol, it was possible to shoot effectively at 100 m. It is difficult to say whether the all-wood butt was more convenient such a hollow butt-holster, but the commercial model was still equipped with it. It is difficult to say what advantages the butt connected to the handle gave the “assault carbine”. Moreover, it would hardly be possible to use it in hand-to-hand combat!


"Model 712" Schnellfeuer - Mauser model 1932. There are two different shops nearby, equally suitable for it. Photo by Alain Daubresse

The only thing completely new in this carbine was the box magazine for 40 rounds, although smaller capacity magazines could also be inserted into it. But the main requirement of the military was not met: the new carbine was still self-loading, but not automatic, that is, it could not fire in bursts, and without this there was no particular need for a 40-round magazine!


These were the boxes they were sold in! Photo by Alain Daubresse

It is completely incomprehensible why the Mauserwerke engineers could not make the assault Mauser automatic. Or it would be more correct to say that they did it, but for some reason only in 1931. Then a Mauser pistol appeared called “model 712” Schnellfeuer - a Mauser model 1932.

It differed from its predecessors only in that it had a fire switch and could fire both single shots and bursts in automatic mode. At the same time, its rate of fire was not too high for a submachine gun - 850 rounds/min. This made it relatively easy to control the weapon.

And so, as it turned out, in 1917 it was impossible to do this, but in 1931 for some reason it was possible. Although it was not such a technically complex design element - this very translator.

In any case, this carbine had many advantages over the Parabellum pistol with a snail magazine. Moreover, despite the presence of fairly large wooden parts, it overall turned out to be lighter than the Lugger. But for all its positive qualities, the new Mauser did not meet the main requirements of the military and could not fire in bursts. And also, like all Mausers, it was tricky to assemble and disassemble and difficult to manufacture. In addition, the new product would require a reduction in the production of mass-produced Mausers.

Therefore, the new model of this weapon was never accepted for service, but they managed to produce about 40 pieces for testing, of which only 4 have survived to this day.

Well, later Hugo Schmeisser presented his MP-18 submachine gun and immediately overshadowed all other developments, since it was he who managed to fulfill all the requirements of the German military as accurately as possible. And it was his machine that became the progenitor of all future submachine guns, but the assault Mauser did not.


This pistol used 7,63mm cartridges. Therefore, a lot of them were placed in the store. Photo by Alain Daubresse

But what would happen if suddenly the Mauserwerke designers thought a little and put the same automatic fire switch, similar to the Schnellfeuer model, on their 1917 carbine?

Let's imagine a little and see what they could come up with.

Let's start with the stock, along with the pistol grip and trigger stop. Well, let them remain that way. The fire switch is also quite in place. The store shaft could be completely redone. That is, simply remove it altogether, leaving only a very small neck for the disk magazine. And this would have to be done, since otherwise a disk magazine with an extremely high neck would be very inconvenient to use.

Such a mount for a heavy disk magazine could not be called rigid and durable. Therefore, a T-shaped groove should be made on the end wall of the trigger guard, and on the outer surface of the magazine, accordingly, a T-shaped protrusion that would fit into it and thereby impart rigidity to the connection of the magazine to the body of the submachine gun.

Such a magazine could have a capacity of 50 or even 100 rounds of ammunition, similar to the Thompson submachine gun, that is, it would be a very solid ammunition load for any assault squad member. Moreover, the use of flat magazines for 20, 30 and 40 rounds would not be ruled out. The only thing is that they would also need to change the mounting method and weld a T-shaped pin.


Mauser C96 device diagram

It would be best to place the barrel of the new Mauser in a perforated casing, and attach another Mauser pistol grip to it from below for a more secure hold. And then (why not?) the German military could well have received a submachine gun already in 1917. Yes - expensive, yes - structurally complex, but... mastered by industry as a whole and familiar to shooters on the battlefield.

However, then for some reason it was not possible to do all this, and why - well, who can answer this question today. In any case, history does not know the subjunctive mood, which is why everything happened the way it happened!
80 comments
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  1. +4
    2 October 2023 04: 18
    a hefty Mauser -
    a ten-shot monster born in the Mauserwerk special department,
    Mauser, there is Mauser! good
    1. +9
      2 October 2023 06: 05
      At the same time, the same Mauser produced an almost perfect rifle. Easy to manufacture and operate, reliable, convenient, lightweight, as far as a bolt action rifle can be. It is not surprising that Hitler, who personally carried such a rifle into the First World War, did not want to hear about replacing it with anything else. And it’s good that this is so, otherwise Gewehr 43 and StG 44 could have appeared several years earlier.
      1. +7
        2 October 2023 07: 42
        Quote: Nagan
        Mauser produced an almost perfect one.

        I had a series of articles on VO. "About Mausers with love." There were 25 materials. Mausers from all over the world!
      2. +1
        2 October 2023 09: 23
        In 1989, as a conscript, in Kushka he took part in the acceptance of the delivery of the division's rifle warehouses.
        There were also Mausers there; the ensign said that they were brought before entering Afghanistan and then they hung up. The year of manufacture was 1920, but I don’t remember exactly. In my opinion there was a thread on the end of the barrel request
        Later he held a trophy Parabellum in his hands.
        It felt like a scalpel in your hand, while a Mauser felt like a razor - one sharply stinging and the second also sharp - but “from left to right”. Apparently due to the length feel
        But in my hand I liked Parabellum better...
        Z.y
        There were several Maxims in the warehouse and some kind of quad, badly worn on a 3-legged machine - something like an MG34, but the holes in the casings were round. Probably imported - but whose?
  2. +1
    2 October 2023 05: 57
    Shpakovsky!!! Forty rounds in a Mauser 712? Are you out of your mind?! Twenty!
    1. +5
      2 October 2023 07: 40
      Quote from Bingo
      Forty rounds

      Forty in the assault. That's what it says...
    2. +5
      2 October 2023 09: 28
      Quote from Bingo
      Shpakovsky!!! Forty cartridges in a Mauser 712? Are you out of your mind?! Twenty!


      [/ Center]
      Quote: Dekabrist
      Let's move on to the Mauser.
      In 1917, the company received a request for a pistol chambered for 9 mm with a large-capacity magazine and in the same year issued the C96 “Trench Carbine” with store on 40 rounds.

      1. 0
        2 October 2023 15: 19
        Well, nevermind! Amazed... Look at the fir trees!
  3. +4
    2 October 2023 06: 47
    "Model 712" Schnellfeuer - Mauser model 1932

    Under the terms of the Treaty of Versailles, Germany was prohibited from designing and creating new weapons. Automatic - even more so. Were these secret developments?
    1. +1
      2 October 2023 08: 21
      Quote: Luminman
      Under the terms of the Treaty of Versailles, Germany was prohibited from designing and creating new weapons. Automatic - even more so.

      I read the Treaty of Versailles and did not find such an article there. Didn't you read it carefully?
      1. +5
        2 October 2023 08: 48
        Quote: bunta
        Didn't you read it carefully?

        Probably inattentively. The import of weapons is also prohibited there.
        1. +1
          2 October 2023 19: 59
          Quote: Luminman
          Quote: bunta
          Didn't you read it carefully?

          Probably inattentively. The import of weapons is also prohibited there.
          Article 170 talks about this. Both import and export. I'm talking about "the development of something new and even more automatic."
          1. +1
            3 October 2023 04: 52
            Quote: bunta
            I'm talking about "development of new and automatic ones even more so"

            The Reichswehr banned all automatic weapons, including machine guns. And their development - a fortiori. Above, even the user pointed out the limitation on barrel length and caliber - I don’t remember the exact numbers, but something similar. I can’t remember the article, and I’m lazy looking for it. Perhaps this was in some explanations and comments to the main articles of the agreement...
            1. 0
              3 October 2023 07: 29
              Quote: Luminman
              All automatic weapons were prohibited in the Reichswehr
              a link to the document and article of the document (preferably with text) will add credibility to your statement.
      2. +2
        2 October 2023 15: 02
        Quote: bunta
        I read the Treaty of Versailles and did not find such an article there.

        The barrel length for pistols was also limited to no more than 100 mm. There were also restrictions on calibers
        1. +1
          2 October 2023 19: 39
          Quote: Dutchman Michel
          The barrel length for pistols was also limited to no more than 100 mm. There were also restrictions on calibers
          Don't remember the article number of the agreement?
    2. 0
      4 October 2023 12: 58
      Quote: Luminman
      Were these secret developments?

      Sclerosis whispers that automatic Mausers were made not in Germany, but in Spain.
  4. +2
    2 October 2023 07: 18
    A beautiful and, most importantly, lethal pistol with good combat accuracy, especially with a holster-butt attached. I had to shoot with it - I had fun and tried out the weapon I had dreamed of. The only thing is that when you shoot from your hand, you stuff (injure the skin a little) your hand between your thumb and index finger with the disconnector located below the trigger. To be honest, this pistol does not need the ability to fire automatically, but we tried it without getting the expected effect.
    By the way, when creating the Soviet 7,62 x 25 cartridge for TT, PPSh/PPD, the 7,63 x 25 Mauser cartridge was taken as the basis.
    1. +3
      2 October 2023 07: 39
      Quote: rotmistr60
      I had to shoot with it - I had fun and tried out the weapon I had dreamed of.

      I'm jealous!
      1. +4
        2 October 2023 07: 47
        I'm jealous!
        I am sure that you would get great pleasure from a powerful and accurate weapon.
        By the way, the Nagan revolver is also a fairly accurate weapon, unless you shoot it by self-cocking.
        1. +9
          2 October 2023 08: 40
          By the way, the Nagan revolver is also a fairly accurate weapon, unless you shoot it by self-cocking.

          If, when comparing a Mauser and a revolver, we take the internal sensations after a shot, then the latter’s recoil is “like a donkey hitting the hand with its hoof.” The Mauser is inconvenient in weight, but the recoil and trigger are softer. About self-recusal shooting from a revolver - that’s another song. Both are better to shoot with two hands. Although classic grips for pistols with a free-running bolt (like PM) are not acceptable for them. You have to get used to it, especially with a revolver. But the handles of both fit comfortably in the hand - better than those of Luger and Margolin; I won’t say anything about the PM at all.
          In terms of lethality, both are hole punchers, but the Naganov bullet tore out pieces from a fifty-fifty board, which was already visually visible. Such a bullet is not only a horse, I think even a bear would not be happy to see it.
          In terms of ease of carrying, a revolver in a holster is unrivaled.
          However, both, along with Luger and Colt, are legends. Although if there is a war, then I would take the last one to the war.
          R.s. The Mauser theme on VO is eternal - thank you Vyacheslav, good day comrades!!
          1. +2
            2 October 2023 09: 25
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            The Mauser theme on VO is eternal

            We had it in the museum. But... it was stolen. One holster left. But I would like to take a closer look at it. Remember what an interesting series of articles there was about Mauser rifles. And yet I held them all in my hands.
      2. 0
        6 October 2023 18: 36
        Personally, I shot at the CSKA shooting range near the Frunzenskaya metro station in Moscow, with a friend, for money. Along with other foreign cars, the most interesting of which was the Colt 1911 from lend-lease deliveries, 1943. Oxidized, he cheerfully fired .45 Lend-Lease cartridges from the same years and made large holes visible from afar - he even collected several cartridges, supposedly, for demonstration to the disbelievers.
        This Mauser is a rare piece of crap in its grip, it tends to peck at the barrel due to the overall layout and the thin, strange handle. I caught myself wanting to shoot from the elbow, like duelists in the evil old days, maybe it would have been better with a butt. The pestle left me feeling sincerely bewildered and disappointed.
      3. 0
        23 January 2024 20: 22
        He is a happy man, how can a normal man not be jealous? am
    2. +1
      2 October 2023 07: 54
      What is the basis there? This is one cartridge, the capsule and core have been changed. ALL.
      1. +4
        2 October 2023 08: 05
        "Take as a basis" means - when creating something, rely on something that already exists (on some concept, idea, image, process, product).
    3. +1
      4 October 2023 07: 16
      The line of sight/barrel is well above the line of the grip, hand and arm holding the Mauser. Therefore, the recoil should force the pistol upward and counterclockwise. The shooter's hand twists up and back. This is true?
      But the gun is like a work of art. Dream. Just like Luger.
  5. +8
    2 October 2023 07: 45
    First, a question to the author - where did you rewrite all this from? It is very interesting who originally sprinkled these revelations.

    And in Germany, already in 1915, a special commission was created that invited weapons manufacturers to think about just such a model. Naturally, it had to shoot with pistol cartridges, since it didn’t require anything else for short-term combat in trenches, and in addition, it had to have an automatic firing mode.

    The first design in this situation was the famous “Lugger” with an elongated barrel and a “snail magazine” for 32 rounds. Of course, the “snail” sticking out of the handle of the parabellum was not very convenient, and it was a typical palliative, but we had to put up with this state of affairs, since more advanced designs had not yet arrived at that time.


    “The famous “Luger” with an extended barrel” - Lange Pistole 08 (artillery), was developed in 1913 on the instructions of Kaiser Wilhelm II and was intended to arm artillerymen and pilots.



    The Trommelmagazin 08 32-round magazine was developed in 1916 based on a similar Blum magazine for the Mondragon rifle. The Lange Pistole 08 did not have an automatic fire mode.
    Was in service with Stoßtruppen until the adoption of the MP-18.
    As for the automatic version of the Luger, which was demonstrated in December 1917 by the Gewehr-Prüfungskommission (which was created back in 1877), there is not even an exact description of it in the literature. Some sources indicate that it only had a bolt from the Luger. The only thing that is known for sure is that in automatic firing mode the dispersion was so great that the development was considered unpromising.
    There are generally accepted sources used by everyone, from writers to collectors, for example

    1. +7
      2 October 2023 07: 56
      Dear Victor! I don't know German. And it’s difficult for me to work with German-language sources. As for my source, it was most likely taken from the same place as the photo. And how to determine what is reliable and what is not?
      Quote: Dekabrist
      First, a question to the author - where did you rewrite all this from? It is very interesting who originally sprinkled these revelations.
      There are generally accepted sources that are used by everyone, from writers to collectors, for example:

      Wonderful, but how do you know which is generally accepted and which is not? I haven't seen these photos anywhere else. Does this mean that their source is not generally accepted? So everything is relative here. But the purpose of the comments is to correct errors, if any, and to point out sources of information to those who are more deeply interested.
      1. +4
        2 October 2023 09: 24
        Wonderful, but how do you know which is generally accepted and which is not?

        Vyacheslav Olegovich, you are the author of many books and two dissertations. By definition, you should know the methodology for assessing the authority of a source.
        I don't know German.

        And I practically don’t know. However, you have to get out. Here is my article about Mauser pistols, it is all based on German sources, and the article about Finnish pistols is based on Finnish sources. It’s generally dark there, I had to turn to professional translators, because the Finnish language, unlike German, does not work with any automatic translator.
        1. +4
          2 October 2023 09: 58
          Quote: Dekabrist
          Here is my article about Mauser pistols, it is all based on German sources, and the article about Finnish pistols is based on Finnish sources. It’s generally dark there, I had to turn to professional translators, because the Finnish language, unlike German, does not work with any automatic translator.

          I can only take off my hat to you and say that... I am proud that we have authors like you at VO and that... I have the opportunity to work next to them and learn from them. The latter is never too late, right?
          1. +6
            2 October 2023 13: 58
            I thought about answering personally, but I will answer publicly. Yes, sometimes there are a lot of questions and critical comments about your articles, and sometimes the comments are quite “harsh”. This is on the one hand.
            On the other hand, at the moment you are the only author who is constantly present on the site and covers topics that are really interesting for discussion in terms of history and weapons. Well, don’t consider Samsonov a historian or a “gunsmith” Ryabov or Mitrofanov with their delirium. I must note that sometimes you get carried away into topics that are completely beyond your capabilities or are clearly opportunistic, but this is forgivable.
            Of course, sometimes Vashchenko or Linnik, or Biryukov, who is Victor, are happy. But this is sporadic. Therefore, on the one hand, we will criticize you, but on the other, we will support you!
            And hats are conventions!!!
            1. +4
              2 October 2023 18: 25
              Of course, sometimes Vashchenko or Linnik, or Biryukov, who is Victor, are happy.
              I would also note the wonderful translations from my German colleague Slug BMPD. Well, Sergei Makhov began publishing here.
        2. +3
          2 October 2023 10: 02
          Quote: Dekabrist
          By definition, you should know the methodology for assessing the authority of a source.

          And I know, Victor. But... sometimes I forget when I write material, hoping for the competence of the author of the source. You, Victor, don’t write materials every day. But I need... so that VO has something new in stock every day. Therefore, it happens that you “miss” the source. This is why I will never translate from Finnish or turn to translators from this language. It's easier to find another topic.
        3. +2
          2 October 2023 10: 09
          Quote: Dekabrist
          Here is my article about Mauser pistols

          I looked through all your articles on your profile and didn’t find it...
          1. +3
            2 October 2023 17: 19

            I looked through all your articles on your profile and didn’t find it...

            For a number of reasons, it was published by someone else.
            1. Fat
              +3
              2 October 2023 17: 46
              hi Hello Anton. Yes. https://topwar.ru/199980-jeksperimentalnye-pistolety-mauzera.html and https://topwar.ru/190058-pervye-finskie-pistolety.html
              1. +3
                2 October 2023 18: 18
                Hello, Borisych! That's right. I even took a small part in organizing the first publication. For everything that is prepared must be eaten!
        4. 0
          23 January 2024 20: 26
          Gentlemen, friends, please remain calm. Thanks to everyone who wrote something good here. Not everyone knows German, neither do I, but I’ll be happy to read it in Russian. Once again my many thanks. am fellow
    2. +3
      2 October 2023 08: 18
      Let's move on to the Mauser.
      It has been said, and not without reason, that bad examples are contagious. Apparently, this is why the specialists of the Mauser Arms Factories did approximately the same thing - they took their C96 self-loading pistol and, after a whole year of work (!), issued a commission for testing the “trench carbine mod. 1917”, firing 9x19 mm Parabellum pistol cartridges.

      In 1917, the company received a request for a pistol chambered for 9 mm with a large-capacity magazine and in the same year issued a C96 “Trench Carbine” with a 40-round magazine.
      Why the author decided that the pistol had been in development for “a whole year” is unknown.



      As for the fact that he did not fire in bursts, there is nothing incomprehensible here - this was not required from the company.

      1. +5
        2 October 2023 08: 22
        Quote: Dekabrist
        This was not required from the company.

        Then why wasn’t it adopted?
        1. +6
          2 October 2023 09: 27
          Then why wasn’t it adopted?

          Manufacturing complexity and production costs. The price/quality criterion in action.
      2. +3
        2 October 2023 08: 51
        Quote: Dekabrist
        In 1917, the company received a request for a pistol chambered for 9 mm with a large-capacity magazine.

        After emptying such a large magazine, the barrel is probably covered in tarnish?
        1. +3
          2 October 2023 09: 10
          After emptying such a large magazine, the barrel is probably covered in tarnish?

          Most likely, additional cooling or a new type of heat-resistant steel would have to be developed. But from the author’s point of view, it’s all just a matter of the translator -
          And so, as it turned out, in 1917 it was impossible to do this, but in 1931 for some reason it was possible. Although it was not such a technically complex design element - this very translator.
          1. +1
            2 October 2023 09: 28
            Quote: Ivan Ivanych Ivanov
            Although it was not such a technically complex design element - this very translator.

            Well, Ivan, isn’t this so?
            1. +2
              2 October 2023 09: 50
              Well, Ivan, isn’t this so?

              “what should we build a house - we’ll draw it - we’ll live” - in technology everything is not so simple. One small detail can lead to several patents and inventions. I already wrote about the heat resistance of the barrel, but similar problems arise at every step during production and each problem requires a solution. And it is often easier to develop a weapon from scratch, but with different principles, than to remake it.
              1. +1
                2 October 2023 10: 04
                Quote: Ivan Ivanych Ivanov
                “what should we build a house - we’ll draw it - we’ll live” - in technology everything is not so simple. One small detail can lead to several patents and inventions. I already wrote about the heat resistance of the barrel, but similar problems arise at every step during production and each problem requires a solution. And it is often easier to develop a weapon from scratch, but with different principles, than to remake it.

                These are all words, Ivan. I know this even without you. What is important in this particular case is what and how it happened. And neither you nor I know this.
                1. +2
                  2 October 2023 11: 26
                  And neither you nor I know this.

                  Agree. But I don't ask such questions
                  So it becomes completely unclear what the Mauserwerke engineers have been racking their brains over for a whole year?
                  . Knowing production from the inside, it is clear that the engineers had something to do - there is capitalism, no one would let them pick their noses for a whole year. And that external changes to weapons are just the tip of the iceberg called production.
    3. 0
      2 October 2023 08: 24
      Quote: Dekabrist
      Was in service with Stoßtruppen until the adoption of the MP-18.

      The MP-18 was never adopted by any Stoßtruppen.
      1. +4
        2 October 2023 09: 15
        The MP-18 was never adopted by any Stoßtruppen.




        1. +4
          2 October 2023 09: 30
          Well, it started - Andrey writes one thing, Victor sends a picture. Both seem to be... knowledgeable people. Two sources of information. Which one is more reliable?
          1. +1
            2 October 2023 11: 04
            Quote: kalibr
            Two sources of information. Which one is more reliable?

            Only an order for adoption into service can be reliable. However. There is no mention of submachine guns at all in any memoirs (Ludendorff, Adam, etc.), fiction (Remarque), or the Treaty of Versailles. However, if you have a head, you can draw surprising conclusions. Finally, read not Popenker, but the military encyclopedia:


            positional weapons to repel enemy attacks from trenches. What does "stormtroopers" have to do with it?
            1. +3
              2 October 2023 14: 30
              Only an order for adoption into service can be reliable.

              Can you reasonably argue, based on work in the archives, that there is none? This is about the presence of a head. Categorical statements are possible only in the presence of irrefutable documentary evidence.
              1. +1
                2 October 2023 20: 12
                Quote: Dekabrist
                categorical statements are possible only in the presence of irrefutable documentary evidence.
                Well, provide documentary evidence of your statement about the existence of an order for adoption. smile And, on occasion, I can play at demagoguery.
            2. +1
              2 October 2023 15: 07
              Quote: bunta
              Not in any memoirs (Ludendorff, Adam, etc.), fiction (Remarque)

              You provided very reliable sources of information. We forgot about jokes wink
          2. The comment was deleted.
          3. +2
            2 October 2023 14: 27
            Which one is more reliable?

            Andrey is a very knowledgeable individual. Moreover, he is a professional in the subject. However, as happens with professionals, sometimes he is too categorical in his opinions.
            There is only one recipe - double-check with available sources.
        2. +1
          2 October 2023 10: 52
          The first photo is a modern reconstruction. The second photo says nothing, except that it is a “stormtrooper” with a Luger and a Bergman.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. +3
            2 October 2023 14: 31
            The second photo says nothing, except that it is a “stormtrooper” with a Luger and a Bergman.

            You contradict yourself.
            1. 0
              2 October 2023 20: 14
              I have a photo with a Kalashnikov assault rifle. What is she talking about?
              1. 0
                2 October 2023 22: 46
                I have a photo with a Kalashnikov assault rifle. What is she talking about?

                Well, everything is simple here. If under it is the signature “German attack aircraft with a Kalashnikov assault rifle. France, 1918,” then you fought in the First World War as part of the Stoßtruppen, which were armed with Kalashnikov assault rifles.
                1. 0
                  3 October 2023 07: 37
                  Quote: Dekabrist
                  Well, everything is simple here. If under it is the signature “German attack aircraft with a Kalashnikov assault rifle. France, 1918,” then you fought in the First World War as part of the Stoßtruppen, which were armed with Kalashnikov assault rifles.

                  Well, you see. Everything immediately becomes clear.
  6. +1
    2 October 2023 08: 29
    “I will remove someone else’s trouble with my hands.” The technical infantilism of the author as a developer is no longer amazing; it has become commonplace. But the author’s lack of understanding of elementary production processes is striking.
    1. +2
      2 October 2023 09: 29
      Quote: Ivan Ivanych Ivanov
      But the author’s lack of understanding of elementary production processes is striking.

      And which ones? Clarify please!
      1. 0
        2 October 2023 09: 58
        And which ones? Clarify please!

        There won't be enough commentary here. Read the memoirs of gunsmiths - there are quite a lot of them. Yes, at least EMNIP "notes of the People's Commissar" Vannikov. It talks very clearly about the technical processes in weapons production. How, for example, does the choice of steel grade and its processing technology affect the appearance and quality of the part?
        1. +1
          2 October 2023 15: 24
          Quote: Ivan Ivanych Ivanov
          Read the memoirs of gunsmiths - there are quite a lot of them. Yes, at least EMNIP "notes of the People's Commissar" Vannikov. It talks very clearly about the technical processes in weapons production. How, for example, does the choice of steel grade and its processing technology affect the appearance and quality of the part?

          Still, people are strange creatures. They firmly believe in their infallibility and do not even think that others have read not only what they have read, but also much more. I read both Vannikov and Popov, and even edited the latter’s book. So the advice was late.
          1. 0
            2 October 2023 22: 28
            Still, people are strange creatures. They firmly believe in their infallibility and do not even think that others have read not only what they have read, but also much more.

            Exactly. How can you read and not understand what you are reading? Lack of technical education?
            It’s simply incomprehensible how one can read these books and not understand how weapons production works.
  7. +5
    2 October 2023 09: 53
    Let's imagine a little and see what they could come up with.

    The result would be a Brazilian PASAM submachine gun. On the left is a 1932 model, on the right is a 1970 model. Used to arm the police. True, the Brazilians did not hang a drum magazine on it for obvious reasons.





    Such a magazine could have a capacity of 50 or even 100 rounds, similar to the Thompson submachine gun

    Why would such a weapon have a drum magazine, especially one with 100 rounds of ammunition, which would weigh more than the weapon itself?
    1. +1
      2 October 2023 10: 07
      Quote: Dekabrist
      on xnumx ammo

      How cool! Didn't the gangsters put that kind of money on Thompson? And in the same Colombia... And I wrote about this PP on the pages of VO, only a long time ago.
      1. +3
        2 October 2023 13: 38
        How cool!

        It may be cool, but the magazine weighs 2,5 kg on a pistol weighing 1,25 kg. will make the weapon uncontrollable. It won't be a magazine attached to a weapon, but a weapon attached to a magazine. By the way, the military had a very negative attitude towards magazines with 50 and 100 rounds, and the British generally sent them back to the USA.
  8. +1
    2 October 2023 10: 37
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, with all due respect, alternative weapons history is already too much. I can throw in a topic about weapons, which is poorly covered. Animals in military service and equipment for them from different times of peoples. Enough for a cycle of any length you desire.
    1. +3
      2 October 2023 12: 58
      Quote: KVU-NSVD
      Animals in military service and equipment for them from different times of peoples.

      There was an article on this topic in VO. Of course, you can always increase the amount of information. But in this case it is not enough. And then you need to remove the monument in London, and there is a problem with this...
      1. +3
        2 October 2023 14: 36
        And then you need to remove the monument in London, and there is a problem with this...
        I don’t see a problem, ask Alex “Bolt cutter” Sviridov.
        1. +3
          2 October 2023 15: 06
          I don’t see a problem, ask Alex “Bolt cutter” Sviridov.

          Or try harder yourself and use sites that broadcast images from webcams, which in Britain today number in the millions.
  9. The comment was deleted.
  10. +1
    2 October 2023 11: 27
    Quote: kalibr
    Both seem to be... knowledgeable people. Two sources of information. Which one is more reliable?


    Incidentally, I remembered something else:
    https://citatyizfilmov.ru/znatok-ubivat-nado-takih-znatokov-zolotoj-telenok-2148
  11. +1
    2 October 2023 12: 47
    Quote: rotmistr60
    I'm jealous!
    I am sure that you would get great pleasure from a powerful and accurate weapon.
    By the way, the Nagan revolver is also a fairly accurate weapon, unless you shoot it by self-cocking.

    With all due respect to our history, the Nagan was outdated at the time of its creation; inconvenient reloading, tight trigger, weak cartridge. But cheap...
    1. +2
      3 October 2023 07: 38
      Quote: Ezekiel 25-17
      inconvenient recharging,

      But beautiful and comfortable, an infection! So many years have passed, but my hand still remembers.
  12. 0
    3 October 2023 14: 46
    Quote: bunta
    Quote: Ezekiel 25-17
    inconvenient recharging,

    But beautiful and comfortable, an infection! So many years have passed, but my hand still remembers.

    There are many high-status weapons that are valued for being rare, and here I agree with you: the Nagant is one of them, but for real work I would prefer the revolvers: Smit and Wesson model 327 chambered for 357 Magnum, 8-round.
  13. 0
    4 October 2023 15: 54
    Quote: your1970
    - something like MG34 but the holes in the casings are round

    The MG 34 had round holes in the barrel casing; the MG42 had large cutouts for easy barrel replacement.
  14. 0
    4 October 2023 17: 04
    PISTOL MAUSER M96
    At the very beginning of the development of self-loading pistols, the Federlov brothers worked at the Paul Mauser plant in Oberndorf to design these weapons. Having produced a working prototype, they agreed with the owner of the company that they would apply for a patent for this weapon in the name of Mauser for a certain price. The pistol had a mechanism with a short barrel stroke and a locking bolt. The cartridge box for ten (or 6, or 20) rounds was located in front of the trigger guard and was loaded from above with a bandoleer. The large weapon had a folding sight for a range of up to 1000 meters, and the wooden body was placed in the groove of the handle and served as a butt.
    Production of Mauser vz pistols. The year 1896 started quickly, and by then the First World War had begun. the war totaled about 270 pieces. The Italian Navy was the first to use them as vz. 000 in the amount of 1899 pieces, they were also used by armed forces in Asia, but the German army preferred Parabelum pistols. The most widespread is vz. 5000/1896 with new fuse. The German army used 1912 Mauser vz pistols. 150/000 chambered for 1896 Para. After the war, Mauser pistols were produced in a shortened version.
    This pistol was the favorite weapon of General Ludwik Svoboda, commander of the Czechoslovak unit in the Soviet Union. Kept in the War Museum in Prague.

    Based on the book Weapons of the First and Second World Wars. am
  15. 0
    19 November 2023 13: 52
    If a person has the opportunity to try a weapon, he will know its pros and cons. My type was basic, and one might say winning. I couldn’t shoot with a pistol because it’s heavy, but with a rifle it was a powerful and high-quality weapon. They are not.