Why the XM25 “Punisher” grenade launcher was not needed by the army

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Why the XM25 “Punisher” grenade launcher was not needed by the army
The first version of the XM25 grenade launcher


In the recent past, a promising XM25 CDTE grenade launcher, also nicknamed Punisher, was developed by order of the US Army. Using a “smart” sight and a programmable grenade, he had to solve complex fire tasks and effectively hit various targets. However, based on the results of lengthy tests and experimental military operation, the grenade launcher was not accepted for service. It had a number of shortcomings, both technical and conceptual.



In the early stages
In the nineties, the Pentagon and its contractors worked on a new generation weapons infantryman. As part of the Objective Individual Combat Weapon (OICW) program, it was planned to create an individual automatic grenade launcher system with wide combat capabilities. One of the program participants was the German company Heckler & Koch, which presented a rifle with an integrated XM29 grenade launcher.

Since the late nineties, the XM29 rifle has been tested, resulting in mixed reviews. The technical part of the project as a whole was considered successful, while the basic concept did not justify itself. In this regard, in 2003, it was decided to divide the integral model into two separate ones - a rifle and a grenade launcher.

The development of the existing grenade launcher continued within the framework of the project with the XM25 index. It provided for the development not of an under-barrel system, but of a full-fledged model in the form factor of a rifle. It was also proposed to increase the caliber, improve the sighting system, etc. To develop a new family of ammunition with broad capabilities, Alliant Techsystems (part of Orbital ATK since 2015) was involved in the project. The XM25 project was included in the military department's Counter Defilade Target Engagement (CDTE) program, which made it possible to count on future contracts.

Redesigning the finished sample did not take much time. Experimental XM25 grenade launchers and ammunition for them were sent for testing as early as 2005. These weapons were not distinguished by the perfection of their design, and over the next few years, factory tests, fine-tuning and inspections continued with the participation of Pentagon representatives. It was possible to complete the main cycle of field tests only at the turn of the decade.


Late execution

Rifle-shaped grenade launcher


The XM25 project proposed the design of a 25 mm self-loading hand grenade launcher with rifle ergonomics. The weapon was equipped with a special electronic sight and had to use specially designed ammunition, incl. with a programmable fuse. Due to this, contact or air detonation was ensured - the latter could dramatically improve the combat qualities of the grenade launcher.

In order to reduce weight, the XM25 grenade launcher was made in a plastic case. Initially, it had a futuristic appearance, but later the design and exterior were simplified and optimized. The product was built according to the “bullpup” scheme. With a total length of approx. 750 mm it received the longest barrel. The mass of the grenade launcher without ammunition reached 6,35 kg, and the layout provided optimal balancing.

The grenade launcher received a 25 mm rifled barrel with a chamber for 25x40 mm ammunition. The weapon's automation worked by removing powder gases; the gas unit was placed on top of the barrel. The gases set in motion a massive bolt that locked the barrel by turning it. The trigger mechanism provided only single fire.

For the XM25, they developed a whole line of grenades in the standard size 25x40 mm. The main one was supposed to be high-explosive fragmentation with a programmable fuse (High-Explosive AirBursting - HEAB). Also offered were thermobaric ammunition, armor-piercing ammunition (up to 50 mm of homogeneous armor), a grenade with ready-made arrow-shaped striking elements, etc. All 25 mm grenades had the same ballistics and an initial velocity of 210 m/s. Five pieces of ammunition were placed in a box magazine.

The most important element of the new weapon was the XM104 sighting system. It was made in a large case and was mounted on top of the grenade launcher. At the same time, its individual elements were located inside the weapon, and the control buttons were located on an enlarged trigger guard in front of the handle.


Ammunition 25x40 mm. Left - practical, right - programmable HEAB

The XM104 device included day and night optics with 2x magnification, a laser rangefinder, a compass, a ballistic computer and a programmer for working with a grenade. The shooter could find and select a target, measure the distance to it and calculate data for shooting with the output of the corresponding aiming network. The sight also provided installation of a HEAB grenade fuse using a programmer inside the grenade launcher. The latter had to count the revolutions of the grenade in flight and detonate it at a given point in the trajectory, increasing the likelihood of hitting the intended target.

According to calculations, the XM25 made it possible to conduct effective fire on single targets at a range of up to 600 m, and on group targets up to 700 m. The maximum firing range was determined to be 1 km, but at the same time the accuracy dropped sharply.

Path to failure


In 2007-2008 The XM25 grenade launcher system reached military testing, and then trial operation, both in units in the United States and abroad. Based on the results of these activities, certain comments were made, and the project was again revised. In 2010, several XM25s were sent to Afghanistan for use in real-life operations. Grenade launchers were used several times in battle, fired a large number of shots and generally showed high efficiency. In addition, among the personnel the weapon received the nickname Punisher - “Punisher”.

The successful completion of these tests allowed the Pentagon to begin developing further plans for mass production and deployment of grenade launchers among the troops. In the medium term, it was planned to purchase more than 10 thousand XM25 products and introduce them into the weapons complex of each infantry squad. For special forces it was planned to have twice as many grenade launchers. By the beginning of 2013, several contracts for the production of weapons and ammunition had been signed.

At the beginning of 2013, one of the “Afghan” grenade launchers exploded in the shooter’s hands during firing practice. As it turned out, there was a double supply of ammunition and one of the charges ignited when the barrel was unlocked. The XM25 was heavily damaged and the grenade launcher was wounded. Fortunately, the grenades did not explode, and there were no more serious consequences. However, this incident had a very serious impact on the entire CDTE development program.


Aerial detonation of a HEAB grenade

It was decided to remove the new grenade launchers from units in Afghanistan and carry out another design modification. After this, further tests took place, following which the product was again sent for fine-tuning. During these activities, some of the newly identified deficiencies were eliminated, and a new version of the XM104 sight was introduced.

In August 2016, the Inspector General of the US Department of Defense, having studied the situation with the XM25 project, demanded that a final decision be made on it - to bring the grenade launcher into operation or to close the project. In April of the following year, the Pentagon terminated the contract with Orbital ATK due to failure to fulfill its terms. In addition, Orbital filed a lawsuit against Heckler-Koch due to legal and production delays.

In July 2018, the Pentagon officially stopped work on the XM25 / CDTE topic. Also, the customer and the contractors signed a document on the conditions for terminating development. In accordance with it, all rights to the developments in the closed project remained with the army.

Reasons for failure


Thus, 15 years of active work on the XM25 grenade launcher, not counting the previous XM29 project, did not produce the desired result. The resulting weapon, with all its advantages, did not suit the customer. In addition, the contractors failed to organize its production. As a result, the project, worth several tens of millions of dollars, was closed.

The XM25 project was based on an interesting idea. It was planned to create a hand-held grenade launcher with high firing characteristics and optimal ergonomics. To improve combat qualities, a grenade with a programmable fuse and a “smart” sight for controlling it were added to the complex. The possibility of contact or air detonation, as well as the availability of other types of ammunition, gave the XM25 product the widest possible capabilities.

However, the implementation of this idea was not the most successful. The resulting grenade launcher had a lot of technical shortcomings that had to be corrected over the course of many years. In addition, some of his problems began at the conceptual level, and it was almost impossible to cope with them.


The XM25 grenade launcher had an acceptable length, but was bulky. In addition, it turned out to be too heavy - 6,35 kg without ammunition. The weapon and standard ammunition of 7 magazines weighed approx. 16 kg. Because of this, the average rifleman could only carry and use a grenade launcher. Use as an additional weapon along with a standard rifle was not possible, which could worsen the overall capabilities of the unit.

High requirements and fundamentally new functions have led to a more complex design and the emergence of corresponding technical risks. As a result, the complex came out for testing with a number of shortcomings of various types and scales. During development, the XM25 and its ammunition went through several stages of development, and each time tests showed the need for further refinement. It is unknown whether it would have been possible to bring the grenade launcher into full compliance with the customer’s requirements.

With all this, the XM25 and its grenades turned out to be prohibitively expensive. According to the plans of the mid-tenths, even with large-scale production, the cost of a grenade launcher should have reached 35 thousand dollars. The grenades of the first batches had to be assembled by hand, and each cost approx. $1K Automated gross production was expected to reduce costs.

Negative experience


History The XM25 project shows some of the features and problems of the process of creating fundamentally new weapons systems. Heckler & Koch and Orbital ATK managed to create a new grenade launcher with special capabilities that generally corresponds to the general views and desires of the customer. At the same time, the resulting design had an excessive number of shortcomings and compromises.

During fine-tuning, testing and new stages of refinement, we managed to get rid of some of the shortcomings. However, improving the design risked turning into an endless process without clear prospects and with constant expenses. The Pentagon did not take risks and closed the project due to the lack of the desired results within a reasonable time frame. In addition, as we now know, they decided to abandon the very idea of ​​a hand-held grenade launcher in the form of a rifle using special ammunition. Whether they will ever decide to return to such concepts is unknown.
58 comments
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  1. +7
    2 October 2023 05: 41
    In fact, the concept of the weapon is very interesting, I would say revolutionary. Another thing is that drones have become another competitor to the grenade launcher, and the range of such weapons is limited in any case.
    1. +1
      2 October 2023 06: 04
      He "shoots too fast!!" (c) even for America
    2. 0
      2 October 2023 09: 40
      The concept is purely mattress - let's stuff as much electronics as possible and get a wunderwaffle unattainable for anyone. Over and over again for a hundred years in a row they have been trying to do this. Forgetting the basic principle - mass weapons should, first of all, be simple. And also reliable and cheap. Otherwise, everything will end like the Fuhrer, who also adored all sorts of such things...
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. +1
        2 October 2023 18: 26
        -Führer (you’re talking about the Third Reich, right?), who loved all sorts of things, took the lives of 27 million of our compatriots. And our ancestors defeated the Fuhrer and his vile fascist clique thanks to incredible efforts and help, including from overseas. Your attempt to make him seem harmless looks ridiculous. So there is no need to talk about how you can throw hats at someone. Manufacturability is important. And moods like yours are fraught with bad consequences.
    3. 0
      2 October 2023 20: 03
      Exactly! Drones came and killed similar weapons. With their "civilian" prices and military range. A mini-revolution in weapons took place before our eyes.
    4. +1
      2 October 2023 20: 30
      Quote: Saigava
      Another thing is that drones have become another competitor to the grenade launcher,

      This is how I imagine: the unit must storm and take a position, and the soldiers have Mavikas in their hands.
      After all, the “drone” will not take the enemy’s position. And with a “drone” in your hands you won’t be able to occupy it.
      And the enemy must be suppressed by fire and destroyed. And strengthen yourself.
      /Although I don’t understand anything about it, this is how I see it from the sofa
    5. +2
      6 October 2023 03: 31
      Does it mean that 1 km for a 25mm Vogue is essentially a limited range? Especially with a double scope.
  2. +7
    2 October 2023 07: 29
    I remember they showed about it on Discovery, a grenade flies through the window and explodes, all the mannequins behind the wall are hit, then there is an explosion above the trench, it looked really cool. Based on it, they made another grenade launcher, with the same sight but on a machine and a large box of grenades. But the main feature was that you could change three parts right on the spot in a couple of minutes, and it turned into a machine gun!!! As I understand it, it didn’t work out, because everything was tied to one project, but the idea itself is cool!
    1. 0
      3 October 2023 00: 44
      Quote: Vadim S
      I remember they showed about it on Discovery, a grenade flies through the window and explodes, all the mannequins behind the wall are hit, then there is an explosion above the trench, it looked really cool. Based on it, they made another grenade launcher, with the same sight but on a machine and a large box of grenades. But the main feature was that you could change three parts right on the spot in a couple of minutes, and it turned into a machine gun!!! As I understand it, it didn’t work out, because everything was tied to one project, but the idea itself is cool!

      During a battle in an open area, problems will arise with accurately determining the distance to the “target”; the distance to the wall of the room at which they are shooting is much easier to calculate than to an enemy lying on the ground. In addition, a grenade explosion in an enclosed space hits the “target” much more strongly than in the open air.
      The project was closed due to the small caliber, which did not allow a sufficient amount of explosives to be placed in the shot, and the total amount of ammunition in 7 magazines of 5 grenade cartridges = 35 shots - too small for combat.
      hi
    2. 0
      6 October 2023 04: 46
      Quote: Vadim S
      I remember they showed about it on Discovery, a grenade flies through the window and explodes, all the mannequins behind the wall are hit, then there is an explosion above the trench, it looked really cool. Based on it, they made another grenade launcher, with the same sight but on a machine and a large box of grenades. But the main feature was that you could change three parts right on the spot in a couple of minutes, and it turned into a machine gun!!! As I understand it, it didn’t work out, because everything was tied to one project, but the idea itself is cool!

      The XM307 ASCW grenade launcher remained experimental.

  3. +5
    2 October 2023 07: 55
    The main problem is the small caliber and therefore no effect on the target in the SIBZ. To defeat you need a direct hit. If you had initially worked with a 40 mm caliber, you could have gotten ammunition that was at least good for something. And you can’t cram what you need into 25 mm.
    1. +5
      2 October 2023 08: 15
      Right. The main argument is that such a grenade launcher is already in service in the US Army, M32. It is ideal for its tasks.
    2. -4
      2 October 2023 09: 01
      no impact on the target in SIBZ

      Well, the name itself suggests that the concept is designed against naked savages.
      Another interesting thing: the author copied and pasted
      interesting pearl -
      The sight also provided installation of a HEAB grenade fuse using a programmer inside the grenade launcher. The latter was supposed to count the revolutions of the grenade in flight and detonate it at a given point in the trajectory

      - how is this even? Is the connection between the grenade launcher and grenade supported?
      1. +2
        2 October 2023 09: 25
        Naked savages, upon closer inspection, often turn out to be well equipped
        1. 0
          2 October 2023 12: 29
          Perhaps this circumstance was taken into account when further development of such a grenade launcher was stopped.
      2. 0
        2 October 2023 17: 15
        Ha. Four minuses and not a single word.
      3. 0
        2 October 2023 20: 07
        Is the connection between the grenade launcher and grenade supported?

        No, but before each shot it is possible to set the distance individually. Which turned out to be very expensive, difficult and not always necessary for a grenade launcher. And the drone flies further, aims more accurately, and the warhead is more powerful.
        1. +1
          2 October 2023 20: 42
          And the drone flies further, aims more accurately, and the warhead is more powerful.
          - this is undoubtedly, although even a disposable drone is more expensive than a mass-produced small grenade. It is simply incorrect to compare them.
          According to the text of the article, it turns out that the programmer “had to count the revolutions of the grenade in flight and detonate it at a given point in the trajectory.” How will he count revolutions in flight without communication? The translation is obviously incorrect. Most likely he set this amount at the exit from the barrel.
      4. +1
        11 October 2023 14: 44
        The laser rangefinder calculates the distance, then the programmer, knowing how many meters the grenade flies in one revolution of its body (rifled weapons - sets the rotation of the grenade when firing), sets the required number of revolutions, and the grenade simply counts the revolutions and when it reaches the required number, it explodes. It's simple =) Taking readings from the manholes. rangefinder and the shot takes about five seconds at most.
      5. +1
        17 January 2024 00: 29
        The fuse counts the revolutions after firing. Not a programmer!
    3. +2
      2 October 2023 13: 48
      As for the 40mm caliber, our Defense Ministry has been mulling over the adoption of the Balkan for years and there are not even rumors about its appearance.
      1. 0
        4 October 2023 17: 08
        Alas, you are absolutely right. On paper there is a 30mm 40mm rifle and 57 grenade launchers. But in fact, zilch.
  4. 0
    2 October 2023 08: 23
    For shooting in this caliber, you can consider a sniper recoilless weapon, that is, small-caliber but long-range, such as a rifle for sniper tasks. It could have a significantly greater range and accuracy than classic sniper rifles, while also having significantly greater stopping power. Against officers, generals and lightly armored vehicles.

    And in order to have a small and compact grenade launcher along with small arms, it may make sense to consider some kind of mechanical catapult, such as a slingshot, or just a slingshot, which could throw hand grenades more accurately and, if necessary, further than the shooter can throw hand.
    1. 0
      2 October 2023 09: 19
      Quote from Viktior Vinland
      sniper recoilless weapon, that is, small-caliber but long-range, such as a rifle for sniper tasks

      See EXACTO program. It seems that the bullets fly and are controlled, but in general, a programmable detonation is an order of magnitude easier to implement, and even if they haven’t managed to bring it to fruition in 15 years, then controlled bullets will definitely not be relevant for another twenty or thirty years.
      Quote from Viktior Vinland
      perhaps it makes sense to consider some kind of mechanical catapult, such as a slingshot, or just a slingshot,

      A pointless idea, a heavy grenade from a slingshot (unlike a light ball from a bearing) will fly away at the same distance as when thrown by hand. A mechanical catapult has long been developed, it is called a crossbow, and has such large dimensions that not a single reasonable homo would exchange an extremely compact under-barrel grenade launcher for a monstrous mechanical catapult.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. +5
          2 October 2023 14: 45
          The sling is a smart option, lightweight, compact, it really increases the throwing range of heavy projectiles, but there is a caveat: with a skill of less than 100, the grenade flies strictly past the target.
          1. +1
            11 October 2023 14: 47
            If not under your feet at all))
      2. 0
        3 October 2023 13: 28
        I looked at the Excacto project.
        There is a smaller bullet and caliber. While a 25mm gun can fly further, or rather, carries more explosives and charge, it also has more room for logic, for example: it is not only a controlled explosion, but also a place for a video camera and processor in order to shoot accurately Over the horizon. For example: The drone gives an indication of the target and a photo. This photo is loaded into the gun, a shot is fired, and when the projectile comes into the area where he can already see the target, he recognizes it from the photo loaded into it and corrects his trajectory himself, thus achieving a 16% hit when shooting beyond the horizon and even at a moving target. This is much better than Exacto and easier to implement. And even in terms of weight, there may be an advantage over a standard modern sniper rifle, because it weighs, say, 120 kilograms, approximately the same as an ATGM bassoon, which has a container caliber of 100 mm, respectively, a projectile caliber of about 25 mm, so a XNUMX mm ATGM can weigh several times less. Because having a caliber four times smaller, it can theoretically have sixteen times less weight. But it will be, say, longer, with a longer starting powder charge and with other improvements, nevertheless, it is quite possible to obtain this kind of anti-tank missile easier than a sniper rifle, with a large number of other advantages. And, by the way, such an anti-tank missile could shoot more effectively at drones, because a drone is a moving target and if the projectile corrects itself, tracking the target with its optics, then it will effectively hit it, and the shooter will not be required to accompany it after the shot , such a combination with a small sniper drone today no longer looks exotic, but rather a call of the times. Drone plus anti-tank missile against enemy drones, armored personnel carriers, radars, generals and officers.

        Regarding throwing a grenade over short distances

        Or maybe it makes sense to consider an over-barrel crossbow for an automatic machine? It can be lightweight and folding, attached to the fore-end, for example.
        He could throw a heavy grenade further and more accurately than a shooter.

        Another option is to produce lighter grenades to slingshot?
        1. +1
          3 October 2023 20: 17
          It is possible to make a light, small-caliber guided missile; in fact, the Israelis have one that weighs a couple of kilograms and is anti-sniper. I don't remember what it's called. The problem with your proposal is that a 25 mm rocket has scanty energy; it will not carry even one hundred grams of filling required for your guidance scheme. One hundred grams is roughly half the weight of a smartphone, i.e. minus the screen and battery, plus the steering wheels and their drive. And what to hit the target with? Kinetics? One hundred grams of microcircuits will not penetrate either an armored vehicle or even a WWII helmet. The range of such a racket will also be ridiculous, a hundred or two meters. To carry a really effective warhead weighing 300-600 grams over a distance of kilometers, you need a serious missile weighing kilograms.
          1. 0
            4 October 2023 20: 06
            It is possible to make a light, small-caliber guided missile; in fact, the Israelis have one that weighs a couple of kilograms and is anti-sniper. I don't remember what it's called. The problem with your proposal is that a 25 mm rocket has scanty energy; it will not carry even one hundred grams of filling required for your guidance scheme. One hundred grams is roughly half the weight of a smartphone, i.e. minus the screen and battery, plus the steering wheels and their drive. And what to hit the target with? Kinetics? One hundred grams of microcircuits will not penetrate either an armored vehicle or even a WWII helmet. The range of such a racket will also be ridiculous, a hundred or two meters. To carry a really effective warhead weighing 300-600 grams over a distance of kilometers, you need a serious missile weighing kilograms.


            Hello,
            Thank you for your comments, I think it would be good to involve weapons engineers in this discussion, I am presenting my thoughts at a conceptual level and now I want to give additional arguments.

            Here's the watch I run with, without the strap on the scale, it's 16 grams.
            They have a video camera, measure steps, speed, pulse, blood oxygen saturation and sleep patterns, play music and much more.
            If you remove the weight of the plastic case and screen, you get no more than ten grams.


            The most modern and powerful Intel processor is a piece of a thin silicone plate measuring 2 by 2 centimeters, everything else is a box, contact pins for inserting it into the motherboard and that kind of thing. So the actual weight of the electronics will probably be closer to 10 grams than 100 grams.

            Next, if we look at the characteristics of, for example, MANPADS, then there we have:

            Tactical and technical characteristics of MANPADS "Verba":
            The range of the targets hit is from 500 to 6000 (6500) m.
            The height of the targets hit is from 10 to 3500 (4500) m.
            The speed of the targets hit is up to 400 m / s (on a collision course), to 320 m / s (on a follow up course).
            The diameter of the rocket body - 72 mm.
            Combat weight of the complex - 17,25 kg.
            Type homing head - tracking passive three-spectral.
            Warhead - high-explosive fragmentation.
            The mass of the warhead - 2,5 kg.

            That is, the combat weight is like that of a sniper rifle and it carries 2.5 kg of explosives over 6 kilometers.
            And half a kilogram is enough for us, as in a defensive grenade, both for the kinetic effect and the explosion, this will kill both the general and the drone and the armored personnel carrier. And this despite the fact that with a small caliber we can count on a greater range of such an arrow, air resistance decreases in proportion to the square of the caliber and a caliber three times smaller than that of a MANPADS will lead to a nine-fold decrease in air resistance, that is, nine times five equals forty five, that is, we will need forty-five times less energy to carry such a charge over a distance of six kilometers, and this means, in particular, such a rocket will be many times lighter. And we will need one such missile to hit a general, drone or radar at a distance of six kilometers with a probability close to one hundred percent, so I think that in practice, the range of hitting a target with such a long arrow may be closer to 10 kilometers than 100 meters. Moreover, the weight can also be significantly less and closer to the weight of RPG 7. That is, about five kilograms or even less.

            At the same time, the choice of caliber is not critical; it is important for us to carry the lemon or its analogue over several kilometers. We can vary the caliber, it could be 25 or 35, it doesn’t matter.

            An additional success factor is the recognition of a target from a photograph using artificial intelligence, which will allow, when aiming from a drone, to hit important moving targets with a probability close to one hundred percent without being accompanied by an operator using the fire-and-forget principle. Since the rocket will correct itself, recognizing the target and changing its course so as to hit it. And the operator can at this time change his position, go into cover or hit another target, depending on the situation.
            1. +1
              5 October 2023 14: 49
              Quote from Viktior Vinland
              Here's the watch I run with, without the strap on the scale, it's 16 grams... So the actual weight of the electronics will probably be closer to 10 grams than 100 grams.

              Your watch is physically unable to recognize the desired object in the video stream in real time. I doubt that even a flagship phone is capable of this. Although it may already be possible. So 100 grams is still very optimistic. After all, you need a battery (both for the electronics and for driving the steering wheels), you need steering wheel drives (2 electric motors), you need power electronics (board) for steering wheel drives, you need two gearboxes for the steering wheels, two steering wheels, tail for stabilization, you need kinematic mechanisms for folding steering wheels and stabilizers at the start, you need a power drive to unfold them, you need a durable case for all this (which will not weigh 10 grams at all). In total, it accumulates under several hundred grams of the pure control unit with all the aerodynamics.
              Quote from Viktior Vinland
              The most modern and powerful Intel processor is a piece of a thin silicone plate measuring 2 by 2 centimeters, everything else is a box, contact pins for inserting it into the motherboard and such things

              How are you going to mount a piece of silicon without packaging into a motherboard? Solder each pin under a microscope? This is the most pure project-making. So the most you can do is remove the metal cover, save 2 grams, will this help you much? Let me remind you that the computer still needs a motherboard, RAM, flash memory for the operating system, a power supply unit, a video camera, optics for it, a stabilizer for the optics. Surely I missed something else. Forget about 10 grams for a productive multitasking computer capable of processing a video stream in real time, recognizing images, and simultaneously controlling a rocket in real time, not in this century.
              Quote from Viktior Vinland
              And half a kilogram is enough for us

              25 mm is too small for a normal warhead; a 30 mm projectile weighs 400 grams, which is closer. 35 mm looks more convincing.
              Quote from Viktior Vinland
              that is, nine multiplied by five equals forty-five

              In principle, you are incorrect in your calculations, firstly, you are taking the weight of the warhead and not the missile as a whole, and secondly, for the sake of understanding, in an extremely simplified manner, I will first outline the basics: the drag force is directly proportional to the drag coefficient, the frontal cross-section, the square of the speed and the friction force sheathing (which is proportional to the sheathing area). The lift depends on the wing parameters and the square of the speed.
              Now let’s calculate: by reducing the diameter by half (Igla MANPADS), to 35 mm, we reduce the volume by eight times (very roughly the same as the available energy), and the drag force by only four times. Those. the available specific energy (per weight of the rocket) will drop by a factor of two (in reality, even more due to the presence of the warhead and control compartment) with the same weight of the warhead. To compensate for the loss, the length of the rocket will have to be doubled. If at the same time we reduce the weight of the warhead by three times, then the length of the rocket can be reduced by a third from the original for Igla (i.e. 2/3). Those. was 1,5 m, will become 1 meter (with a rocket diameter of 35 mm). Compared to a sniper rifle, the dimensions do not improve at all.
              We obtained parameters comparable to Needle in terms of range, using an extremely simplified theory. In reality, it will fly, maybe a little further, due to the smaller contribution of skin friction (due to the lower elongation of the body), or a little less, again due to the elongation, which affects the aerodynamic drag coefficient, this must be specifically taken into account. But there will definitely not be any 10 km. To do this, you will have to sharply increase the elongation in order to accommodate more fuel, and then you need to take into account the increasing weight of the structure (the longer the pipe, the less strength with the same walls), the increasing area of ​​the skin (resistance of the skin), the increasing coefficient. forehead. resistance (non-optimal elongation). In short, the dependence of range on the elongation and volume of the rocket is far from obvious. However, like everything else in airplanes/missiles.
              To be fair, the range parameter can be sharply increased by reducing the rocket speed. But this is a double-edged sword. At subsonic levels, the missile will fly at a distance of 5 km for approximately 20 seconds, during which time the relevance of the digital portrait of the target may be completely lost. So in your proposed scheme you need the fastest possible rocket.
              1. 0
                5 October 2023 22: 49
                Thanks for the detailed answer.

                According to ChatGPT, the weight of a modern Mediatek chipset is generally less than ten grams and everything is already there - a processor, RAM and a graphics card. A AA battery also weighs about ten grams. Smartphones and flagship watches are made heavy for marketing reasons. It is easier for buyers to pay a thousand euros for an item that is still weighty. So we will need to add ten grams and at the same time we can throw out its guidance head from the Needle, because the Drone will send us the coordinates and photograph of the target. We also don’t need a friend-or-foe system.
                In other words, we will greatly lighten the entire system, suppose we left the wings and the mechanics that rotate them, this is an already existing, well-functioning and reliable structural part.

                Quote: Passing by

                We obtained parameters comparable to Needle in terms of range, using an extremely simplified theory.


                And this would already be wonderful, it is significantly superior to Exacto and any other sniper systems, but that’s not all.

                If I correctly understand the performance characteristics of MANPADS, then this is a range of 6500 meters and an altitude of 3500, but in this case, if it is a hypotenuse and a leg, then it means a different leg, the projection onto the ground is about seven kilometers, and at this moment the missile is at the apogee of its trajectory. Then it can fly gliding and adjusting its trajectory on its wings, covering another seven kilometers, having a small supply of fuel for the last maneuver, just in case. In other words, the firing range at a ground target may be closer to 15 kilometers than ten.

                Quote: Passing by


                To be fair, the range parameter can be sharply increased by reducing the rocket speed. But this is a double-edged sword. At subsonic levels, the rocket will fly a distance of 5 km for about 20 seconds,


                We are quite satisfied with subsonic speed, because small drones fly slowly, and ground targets move very slowly, slowly, in 20 seconds a car at a speed of 36 km/h will move only 200 meters, and a truck that rushes 72 km/h will drive away from that place , where the Drone saw him at only 400 meters. From a distance of 4 km, this point will be at an angle of six degrees relative to the direction where the missile initially flew according to the drone’s target designation.
                She will be able to taxi with her wings, calculating the advance in speed and direction with her on-board computer and hit a truck, jeep, radar, armored personnel carrier, and even more so an officer who went out to smoke like an old duck.
                So if subsonic speed makes it possible to significantly increase these already 15 kilometers, then how much will it be? Twenty? Thirty kilometers? Moreover, not all targets are so distant; for targets at a distance of 2 to 5 kilometers, this is a XNUMX% hit with no chance of saving the target.
                Perhaps it makes sense to carry out calculations and computer modeling?

                Recognition of an object using trained models occurs very quickly, a modern chipset from a smartphone will do this instantly, and it will still have a lot of time for other useful things, such as reconnaissance and recognition of other targets along the trajectory of its flight and several kilometers to the right and left of this trajectory and informing your shooter and his command by radio and sending their photographs and coordinates, for example. To do this, you would need to add some kind of 5G modem - that's a few more grams, maybe ten more grams.



                What do you think about another proposal, a vertical, second floor above the machine for throwing a half-kilogram cylinder of a defensive grenade?
                I wrote more about this in another response to your comments.
                1. 0
                  7 October 2023 18: 15
                  I looked at the weight of the 5G modem, the fashionable and powerful modem weighs 50 grams, this is already with the box. I think this is not important; in extreme cases, you can launch a separate reconnaissance missile with a modem and a camera, which will photograph everything, analyze it and draw up a report with suggestions on what targets to shoot at, and then a salvo from a sniper platoon.
                2. +2
                  11 October 2023 14: 59
                  Thanks for the post! Rich imagination, coupled with ignorance of hardware, gives rise to uplifting messages!
                  1. 0
                    11 October 2023 20: 28
                    Thank you for your comment.
                    A plus from me for answering. And now I want to give additional arguments:
                    Here we have fruitfully discussed the issue with another participant and, as it seems to me, we have developed a wonderful concept, the implementation of which can radically change the situation on the battlefield.
                    No one is competent in all areas of human knowledge at the same time.
                    For this purpose, there is collegiality of discussion and brainstorming.
                    What specifically, in your opinion, needs to be improved or changed in the proposed concept and, if possible, with illustrations of your additional specific justifications for your proposals, that is, with specific technical details.
                    I understand perfectly well that my knowledge of materiel cannot be compared with the knowledge of many competent people for whom this is their profession and their life’s work. At the same time, if you have found the time to respond to this discussion and you have the necessary knowledge, perhaps you could, within the framework of publicly available information, comment in more detail, note the positive and negative aspects of the proposed small-caliber ATGM for solving sniper tasks.

                    You know that Troy was discovered by the amateur Schliemann. I understood the comments of the participant Mimoprokhodchiy and took them into account at the conceptual level, proposing to use those elements of technical solutions that exist, for example, in MANPADS. If you make additional technical comments, then perhaps the collective analysis of people on this forum will be able to solve new problems. We are doing a common cause.
                  2. 0
                    12 October 2023 03: 45
                    Thanks for the post! Rich imagination, coupled with ignorance of hardware, gives rise to uplifting messages!


                    Regarding the lack of knowledge of materiel, I can also add on my own behalf that Mimopasschiy, for example, mentioned the additional weight of the supposedly necessary mechanical stabilizers for optics. While they are not needed with this approach, because the stabilization of the image on the screen will be carried out by the on-board computer simultaneously with target recognition and the generation of instructions for modifying the missile’s course. And the missile’s course will change so that the target hits the center of the picture on the screen. But this is not scary, he did not know this, because this may not be his area of ​​​​competence, but I, for example, understand this, that is, my competencies are also useful, and his competencies too. But he brought other valuable information, comments and observations to the discussion. So, together, with everyone contributing what they can, we will create. What would you personally like to add based on your competencies? Any specific suggestions for improving the concept and any criticisms?
                    1. +1
                      18 October 2023 15: 38
                      Specifically? The idea is conceptually unrealizable at this stage of development of computing systems. From the word absolutely. In addition, a 25mm tube will not carry enough explosives to the target to thoroughly hit it. In explosives there is such a concept as brisance, as well as another concept, the rate of combustion of explosives. In other words, the shape of an explosive in the form of an elongated nail will not cause enough damage. I hope I explained it in a sufficiently streamlined manner so that it does not fall under the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation.
                      1. 0
                        22 October 2023 08: 59
                        Thanks for the reply.
                        A person passing by has already mentioned the need to increase the caliber to, for example, 35 mm. It is fundamental to us in this matter that for sniper tasks with a large reserve, the amount of explosives and fragments that are, for example, in a defensive grenade, that is, half a kilogram, is enough, and a MANPADS carries 2,5 kilograms, that is, five times more, if we have enough five times less explosive, it would be logical to assume that it will be possible to deliver it much further, and using optical target recognition we will also significantly lighten and reduce the cost of the design. I don’t know, it’s not my competence, maybe it’s good that they increased the caliber, for example. MANPADS technologies have long been studied and developed to perfection - they can rotate the wings of a grenade quickly and skillfully. The explosives business has not been a secret for a long time, I hope that I did not let you down under the article.

                        Regarding the power of computing systems, I do not agree with your statement. Let me write in more detail:
                        Image recognition today has long been, by the standards of computer science, a studied and trivial task. This requires very little computing power. Approximately how long it takes one fast Fourier transform on a fairly small number of points. For modern processors and graphics cards, this is child’s play, thousandths of a second, but if you put pictures into the Pipeline of some ASIC, you can get one FFT in one clock cycle. That is, these are millions of pictures per second on a chipset weighing several tens of grams running on a AA battery. And on larger and more powerful equipment, for example, you can easily analyze billions of images per second, but this is for larger rockets. You don't need that much for a grenade launcher. Even if the speed of a grenade is 300 meters per second, for example, then processing thousands of images per second will allow you to receive a new direction to the target every 33 centimeters of the missile’s flight, calculate the speed and direction of the target’s movement, and make adjustments to the flight path. That is, you can reliably hit even very fast moving targets.

                        I have a question about range, I hope that this does not cross the boundaries of secrecy, these are general issues of aerodynamics. Did I understand the performance characteristics of MANPADS correctly when I wrote that this is a hypotenuse of 6000 meters at a leg altitude of 3000 and that from this point the grenade could well glide even further, confidently and accurately hitting targets at an even greater distance and how much the range can be increased if you abandon supersonic speed , for this kind of sniper grenade launcher, we apparently can safely abandon supersonic speeds if this brings a significant increase in the grenade’s flight range.
      3. 0
        3 October 2023 15: 59
        A pointless idea, a heavy grenade from a slingshot (unlike a light ball from a bearing) will fly away at the same distance as when thrown by hand. A mechanical catapult has long been developed, it is called a crossbow, and has such large dimensions that not a single reasonable homo would exchange an extremely compact under-barrel grenade launcher for a monstrous mechanical catapult.


        What if we consider a potato cannon? Like the second floor above the machine, turning it into a vertical one.
        For example, on a butane-air mixture, pneumatics.
        Length (mm):
        OK. 1000 - 1500 mm
        Sighting range (m):
        Until 300 m
        A potato weighs 100 grams, a grenade f1 - 600

        If the recoil is too high, then in the form of a recoilless rifle and with a powder starting charge, and not with pneumatics or Butane, it can also be folded, you will get a very light and accurate throwing design.
        1. +1
          3 October 2023 20: 21
          Quote from Viktior Vinland
          What if we consider a potato cannon? Like the second floor above the machine, turning it into a vertical one.
          For example, on a butane-air mixture, pneumatics.
          Length (mm):
          OK. 1000 - 1500 mm

          Why do you need a meter-long unit weighing tens of kg, and even with a butane-air mixture cylinder, when an under-barrel grenade launcher weighs 1 kg and is 30 cm long?
          1. 0
            4 October 2023 21: 15
            Why do you need a meter-long unit weighing tens of kg, and even with a butane-air mixture cylinder, when an under-barrel grenade launcher weighs 1 kg and is 30 cm long?


            Then a collapsible light pipe like a recoilless rifle, we just need to accurately throw the lemon a couple of hundred meters or throw it through a window on the ninth floor in a house on the next street.

            The Mukha grenade launcher, RPG 18, weighs 2.6 kg, the grenade weighs about 1,5 kg with a speed of 114 m/sec. An experienced shooter could hit an object at a distance of more than 100 meters with a probability close to 130%.
            But it would be enough for us to throw a half-kilogram lemon over a couple of hundred meters, it could be a light pipe, even lighter than a fly, with a fly length of 705 mm, we could make it folding and reusable with a bolt, into which we could quickly roll a core like an RGO grenade or throw this cannonball with your hand if necessary. It can be expected that this kind of second floor could be lighter than one kilogram.

            At the same time, if we compare with the characteristics of the GP-30M under-barrel grenade launcher:

            Weight - kg 1,3 without a grenade and kg 1,6 with a grenade.
            Overall dimensions: in the stowed position - 280х69х130 mm,
            in a combat position - 280х69х192 mm.
            The maximum firing range is 400 meters.
            Rate of Fire - 10-12 rds / min.
            Type of shot - 40-mm VOG-25.

            We will see that the GP-30M is heavier, the grenade is smaller, and most importantly it has strong recoil and is often fired pointing at the ground or the knee, and this means less accuracy. And you can shoot accurately from such a pipe if you make it the second vertical barrel in a machine gun with a familiar and comfortable butt and without recoil. A grenade would be more universal, a kind of core or maybe better a cylinder, which can be either thrown by hand or fired from the upper barrel of a machine gun.
            1. 0
              11 October 2023 15: 03
              I’ll also throw in an idea, much easier to implement, to add a barrel to the grenade launcher in front, and instead of a chamber in front of the breech, put a drum with six chambers =) We’ll get a good grenade launcher with calculated characteristics and a much higher rate of fire without square bicycle wheels =)
              1. 0
                11 October 2023 20: 41
                And weight? What about the return?
                A light second floor for throwing half a kilogram can actually weigh less than a kilogram, shoot far and accurately with those grenades that you can throw with your hand if something happens. That is, one barrel for such a vertical is one kilogram. Two or three propelling powder charges. I don’t know what weight, if for example a powder charge of 300 grams is enough to throw it 100 or two hundred meters?
                If so, then this is quite acceptable - one kilogram of additional weight on the machine gun from the vertical upper barrel, another kilogram of three powder propellant charges, and for example five grenades in a new universal format, like a cylinder. Such grenades could be fired from the upper barrel of a machine gun or thrown. And this would be powerful small artillery in the hands of a shooter. Right?

                At the same time, the total additional weight, excluding the weight of grenades, is only two kilograms, and you have to take grenades with you anyway.
    2. 0
      2 November 2023 12: 50
      Is the M79 not compact enough? smile
  5. +1
    2 October 2023 08: 28
    Maybe it should have been made on the basis of a smooth-bore repeating shotgun? There the design is polished from top to bottom. The more novelty, the harder the implementation.
    1. 0
      2 October 2023 09: 38
      I bet that the program was not closed due to problems with the mechanical part. The US Army does not particularly care about the absolute reliability and unpretentiousness of weapons, unlike our adherents of the AK sect. For them, the main factor is the effectiveness of hitting the target. And here reliability plays a purely secondary role. Therefore, I suppose the main problem is the grenade’s weakness in high-explosive and fragmentation action, because at the time of its development, SIBZ were not very common among America’s opponents, but now this has become the norm, and in the future their armor protection will only increase. Therefore, it would be possible to bring this topic to mind, but every year there is less and less sense in this.
    2. 0
      2 November 2023 12: 53
      There is one... Cina Lake does.
  6. +4
    2 October 2023 08: 48
    An excellent anti-drone weapon - there are even ammunition with ready-made submunitions. Excellent optics, high rate of fire, remote detonation, relatively high initial speed. However, it is useless for parades, biathlons and ceremonial prayers.
  7. +1
    2 October 2023 08: 50
    Quote from cold wind
    Right. The main argument is that such a grenade launcher is already in service in the US Army, M32. It is ideal for its tasks.

    The M32 has a low range and accuracy; the XM25 was apparently intended for other tasks.
  8. +1
    2 October 2023 08: 52
    Quote: garri-lin
    The main problem is the small caliber and therefore no effect on the target in the SIBZ.

    With a large caliber you will not get the required range and accuracy for a wearable version.
    1. 0
      2 October 2023 09: 24
      China seems to have a similar concept in 40 mm caliber. But also a concept.
  9. 0
    2 October 2023 10: 42
    Expensive? Everything in the American military-industrial complex is expensive. Not an argument. Heavy? So the first “maxims” rode on wheels from cannons and were installed on ships as small-caliber artillery. Not an argument. Make grenadier companies and give them to regiments, for example. And so on.
  10. +2
    2 October 2023 11: 42
    You can look at three things forever: flowing water, burning fire, and American programs to create individual small arms to replace the M-16 and its clones. smile
    SPIW - ACR - OICW...
  11. Lad
    +1
    2 October 2023 11: 45
    The small caliber of the grenade launcher is on the one hand a disadvantage, and on the other an advantage. Only it allows you to make a weapon mobile. As they already wrote in the article, even with this caliber the weapon weighs so much that a soldier can no longer carry a rifle. In this regard, we must remember the ancient dream (concept) of the military to get rid of bullet weapons altogether. Switch from it to grenades. In general, the effectiveness of a grenade is higher than that of a bullet. But this “paradigm” has a couple of drawbacks. ))) For example, you can shoot with a bullet weapon even at point-blank range, but for a grenade there is some minimum range of use. Plus, the amount of ammunition carried drops sharply. Plus the mass is growing sharply. Plus, the ballistics are deteriorating, although with today’s powerful electronic sights this can somehow be solved. But these disadvantages decrease somewhat as the caliber decreases. True, at the same time, the difficulty of achieving the effectiveness of ammunition increases. A small-caliber grenade has less power. So the designers are torn (as always, however) “between Scylla and Charybdis” (or whatever their name is?).
  12. +2
    2 October 2023 16: 31
    The question "why" has a simple answer. That’s why almost all Pentagon projects started after the collapse of the USSR failed. Because of the initially poor and flawed concept. All of them were created as part of an attempt to gain OVERWHELMING TECHNOLOGICAL superiority on the battlefield. And all of them were faced with the fact that the United States does not have any truly breakthrough technologies. Yes, weapons can be made very expensive, but also look futuristic and combine some previously incompatible factors. You can stuff electronics in there. But in real use, it still turns out that it’s all the same thing, but it’s heavier, more expensive and many times more difficult to produce, and doesn’t provide any real advantage. In addition, one must take into account Lohokid Martin's generic disease - a pathological tendency to lie, inflate the characteristics of his crafts and extort funds from the budget.
    The idea of ​​this complex was not born on its own, but within the framework of the “soldier of the future” concept, where it was supposed to create a full-fledged “equipment” for the infantryman, making him almost a terminator or a universal soldier dominating the battlefield over crowds of “poorly trained conscripts.” The shooting complex was its integral part. And it was the entire project that failed, it was just that the grenade launcher lasted the longest. They also promised to equip the rifle with guided bullets.
    The same fate awaited the project of a new infantry fighting vehicle, a stealth helicopter, a new self-propelled gun, a laser Boeing, a belly-up destroyer, littoral modular ships, and a rail gun. The “cheap stealth fighter” is on the verge of failure. There is also a project for a hypersonic missile. All these are the brainchild of one concept.
  13. +1
    2 October 2023 23: 15
    As for me, it is an almost ideal weapon for an infantryman in defense. Doubles the effective firing range compared to Kalash...
    Remove automatics and increase caliber. You can also reload using the bolt handle. However, if you make similar sights and ammunition for RPGs, it will turn out no worse.
  14. 0
    3 October 2023 06: 29
    Quote: Reindeer herder_2

    This is how I imagine: the unit must storm and take a position, and the soldiers have Mavikas in their hands.
    After all, the “drone” will not take the enemy’s position. And with a “drone” in your hands you won’t be able to occupy it.
    And the enemy must be suppressed by fire and destroyed. And strengthen yourself.
    /Although I don’t understand anything about it, this is how I see it from the sofa


    I meant that instead of 16 kg of mass (weapon 35 grenades), you can take 5 drones of 3 kg each and with these drones you can quite successfully hit an entrenched enemy.

    This weapon is needed to smoke out the enemy, as for me, drones have much greater potential for smoking out. Instead of 1 grenade launcher, you can take one specialist with drones; most likely, in the units of the future, a specialist with drones will be a replacement for the grenade launcher.
  15. +1
    15 December 2023 17: 18
    I didn’t read the article, because that’s why, but in movies and computer games XM even showed himself very well
  16. 0
    15 December 2023 17: 21
    I didn’t read the article, because that’s why, but in movies and computer games XM even showed himself very well