Not morally obsolete: the potential of landing ships pr. 12322 "Zubr"

"Bison" comes ashore. Photo USC

Over the past several decades, as part of the Soviet and Russian naval fleet landing boats and hovercraft serve. The largest representatives of this class are the Project 12322 Zubr small landing ships. They are distinguished by high performance characteristics, capacity and the ability to deliver and land troops on different coasts. The high technical and combat potential of such MDKVPs is used by our fleet, and has also attracted interest from foreign navies.

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Project “12322” or “Bison” has been developed since the late seventies by the Leningrad Central Marine Design Bureau “Almaz”. It is based on developments from previous small landing hovercraft, as well as a number of new ideas and components. The design took several years, and in 1983 construction began on the lead ship of a new type.

“Bison” were planned to be built for the Baltic and Black Sea fleets. The ships for the Red Banner Baltic Fleet were to be assembled by the Primorsky Shipyard (now Almaz, St. Petersburg), and the hulls built at the More shipyard in Feodosia were intended for the KChF. In total, it was planned to put into operation 17 new MDKVP, but Perestroika and the collapse of the USSR led to a serious revision of these plans.

By the time the country collapsed, six ships had been built in Leningrad, and three more were under construction. Two of them were then dismantled on the slipway. Three “Black Sea” ships and unfinished orders for the “Sea” went to Ukraine. Subsequently, attempts were made to complete the construction of the ships and put them into operation. In addition, Ukrainian shipbuilders proposed their own version of the project with a different set of equipment.

The ship is ready for landing: the ramp is down, the A-22 launchers are in firing position. Photo: Wikimedia Commons

As a result of all the events of recent decades, only two Zubrs remained in the Russian Navy - Evgeniy Kocheshkov and Mordovia, accepted into service in 1990-91. In the late nineties, Ukraine began to abandon the existing MDKVP, and disposed of several pennants. At the beginning of the 728s, Greece acquired four ships: three were completed and transferred by Russia, the fourth came from Ukraine. In the tenth years, Ukrainian industry was able to sell two modified Zubrs to China. To date, the PRC has independently built two more similar ships, designated “Type XNUMX”.

Technical features

The Zubr project proposed the construction of a hovercraft capable of transporting and landing personnel, equipment and weapons on the coast. The total length of such a ship is approx. 57 m with a width of 25,6 m. Displacement - 555 tons. Crew includes 27 people.

The hull structures of the Zubr are welded and made of aluminum-magnesium alloy, resistant to corrosion. The hull consists of a lower flat pontoon, on which the air cushion fence is attached, and a superstructure. The superstructure is divided into three longitudinal compartments: the central one performs the functions tank deck and has a bow ramp, and the side ones accommodate the main units and mechanisms. On top of the superstructure are the wheelhouse and propulsion engines in ring channels.

The ship is equipped with five DP71 gas turbine engines with a power of 10 thousand hp each. Two engines drive the NO-10 blower units to create an air cushion. The other three perform the functions of marching ones: they are located in the stern on columns and rotate propellers in ring channels. Electricity is generated by two gas turbine generators of 100 kW each.

View from a different angle. Photo USC

In its original configuration, the Zubr had advanced electronic weapons. On board there were several radars for various purposes, navigation aids, an electronic warfare system, etc. With the help of these systems, the navigation of the ship, the use of weapons, etc. are ensured. In foreign projects, the composition of the electronics changed, but without fundamental restructuring.

To support the landing, MDKVP pr. 12322 has a pair of A-22 multiple launch rocket systems. Each launcher carries 22 140 mm caliber projectiles and is stowed under the deck when in motion. There are also two AK-630 assault rifles. Barrel and missile weapons are controlled remotely. In addition, the crew has several MANPADS at its disposal.

Driving advantages

The high performance and combat characteristics of the Zubr-class ships are due, first of all, to their unusual method of movement. The air cushion allows for high speed and other advantages. In terms of the combination of propulsion parameters and corresponding capabilities, MDKVP Project 12322 is superior to ships of traditional design.

The air cushion lifts the ship above the surface and sharply reduces the resistance of the environment. Thanks to this, the Zubr is capable of reaching speeds of up to 63 knots - twice as fast as ships with a displacement hull. Economic speed is also at a record level - 55 knots. It provides a range of 300 nautical miles.

In the process of unloading. Photo by the Russian Ministry of Defense

Depending on the operating mode of the superchargers, the lower elements of the ship rise above the surface to a height of up to 300-500 mm. This feature gives the MDCV amphibious capabilities. The “bison” can move on water or on ice, as well as climb onto a gentle bank and move along a flat coast. According to the calculations of the project developers, the ship is capable of landing troops on 70% of the coastline of the world's seas and oceans.

High mobility and maneuverability reduces risks for the ship. Thus, when approaching the shore, it can actively maneuver to escape fire. The landing takes no more than a few minutes, after which the ship returns to the water and leaves the danger zone. While on the shore, the MDKVP is capable of moving through trenches and some other obstacles, incl. mines.

Landing potential

MDKVP pr. 12322 is intended for the transportation of personnel, weapons, equipment or other cargo, as well as for their landing directly on an unprepared coast. The technical characteristics and layout of the ship make it possible to effectively solve such problems.

“Zubr” can transport up to 150 tons of cargo inside the hull. There are also cabins for 140 people. The ship's standard loadouts are 3 main tanks; 8 infantry fighting vehicles with crew and troops; 10 armored personnel carriers with people, etc. The tank deck can be used to accommodate and transport personnel. In this case, the ship contains approx. 500 people

Greek ship "Kefalonia", built in St. Petersburg. Photo Militaryrussia.ru

Landing of people and equipment is carried out directly on land. The ship can go ashore and lower the ramp to the ground. The small slope and large ramp width simplify and speed up the descent, allowing personnel to begin combat missions faster and with less risk.

The ship can suppress enemy defenses until the moment of landing and support the landing with fire, for which it carries several cannon and rocket artillery systems. Within a radius of 4,5 km, A-22 MLRS are used. Each installation carries 22 high-explosive fragmentation projectiles and has ammunition for two additional salvos. 30-mm rapid-fire AK-630 guns are also used in the near zone.

The Zubr's weapons allow it to hit manpower, unprotected and lightly armored vehicles. Tanks or fortifications suffer serious damage, including loss of combat effectiveness. With the help of such fire support, the landing force can land, deploy its weapons and independently fight the enemy.

Not obsolete

The project of the small landing hovercraft 12322 "Zubr" was developed 40 years ago, and construction of the lead ship began at the same time. The two pennants of this type remaining in the Russian Navy recently celebrated their 30th anniversary. In general, the Zubr project is not new, but it cannot be called obsolete.

One of the Chinese MDCVs of its own construction. Photo Navalnews.com

Despite their considerable age, the Zubrs retain high tactical and technical characteristics and have all the necessary capabilities. They are capable of quickly delivering troops to the shore and landing them, providing the necessary fire support. At the same time, the air cushion reduces the requirements for the landing area and gives the ship the broadest combat capabilities.

In terms of performance and other characteristics, the MDKVP Project 12322 is superior to landing ships and boats of a number of other classes. They are inferior only to large and versatile landing ships, but only in terms of carrying capacity and due to the lack of the ability to carry a helicopter.

Seeing the potential of the Zubr, the Soviet Navy at one time ordered the construction of almost two dozen such ships for the Baltic and Black Sea fleets. There are currently only two pennants in service, but the reasons for the reduction of such a fleet are not related to the ships themselves. “Bison” have repeatedly shown their best side and have given no reason to doubt their necessity.

It is noteworthy that the “12322” project and its variants are still of interest from the point of view of operation and application. Thus, the Russian Navy promptly maintains and repairs its ships. At the beginning of the XNUMXs, Greece acquired several Bisons, and China is right now building such ships for its Navy.

All this shows that in project 12322 “Zubr” the right ideas and solutions were proposed and successfully implemented, which made it possible to obtain the required level of tactical and technical characteristics and operational capabilities. The resulting ships remain relevant and unique even several decades after the project was developed. And it is obvious that the inherent technical and modernization potential has not yet been exhausted and will continue to be used.

Comments

[Amateur]

Another one of the galoshes from the Soviet military-industrial complex.
The text of your comment is too short and in the opinion of the site administration does not carry useful information.

[parusnik]

With your comment, we can end the discussion of the article.

[Saburov_Alexander53]

It’s possible to finish, but I’d like to dream... If at the beginning of the Northern Military District they had focused on the Black Sea coast and landed troops south of Zatoka, before they laid sea mines there and lost almost the entire landing fleet (BDK) under attacks in Berdyansk and the flagship " Moscow", then all of Bessarabia with ports on the Danube would be ours. The supply of Ukraine through Romania and along the Danube from all over Europe would practically be stopped. But they didn’t act this way at the beginning of the Northern Military District, which means there were reasons for this and, most likely, it was precisely the lack of funds for the landing and its support, supplies from the sea. Although on the Ukrainian branch of the Danube, not on the Sulina (Romanian) branch, ships with a draft of no more than 3-4 meters sail, which is enough to deliver weapons to Vilkovo, Kiliya and Izmail with Reni. And then we would unload ships with weapons in Izmail in front of Romania, and they would bite their elbows. I'm not even talking about the grain deal and the launch of sea drones from this coast.
However, our General Staff knew better and we went to Sumy and Chernigov, which we could not hold.

[Doctor]

It’s possible to finish, but I’d like to dream... If at the beginning of the Northern Military District they had focused on the Black Sea coast and landed troops south of Zatoka, before they laid sea mines there and lost almost the entire landing fleet (BDK) under attacks in Berdyansk and the flagship " Moscow", then all of Bessarabia with ports on the Danube would be ours. The supply of Ukraine through Romania and along the Danube from all over Europe would practically be stopped. But they didn’t act this way at the beginning of the Northern Military District, which means there were reasons for this and, most likely, it was precisely the lack of funds for the landing and its support, supplies from the sea. Although on the Ukrainian branch of the Danube, not on the Sulina (Romanian) branch, ships with a draft of no more than 3-4 meters sail, which is enough to deliver weapons to Vilkovo, Kiliya and Izmail with Reni. And then we would unload ships with weapons in Izmail in front of Romania, and they would bite their elbows. I'm not even talking about the grain deal and the launch of sea drones from this coast.
However, our General Staff knew better and we went to Sumy and Chernigov, which we could not hold.

It's like that.
And every war it’s the same thing in the Black Sea Fleet. We need landing ships, small support ships and aircraft.
Instead - cruisers, large landing ships and a floating crane.

But the Karakurt entered service at the Pacific Fleet.

[tlauicol]

They would simply have lost the entire landing force killed and captured in a week, and the entire result.
As for the Bison... Well, yes, it's cool, an air cushion, unusual... That's where the advantages end. Ships should be built for military service, not for fun

[Saburov_Alexander53]

They would have simply lost the entire landing party killed and captured in a week,
Why such confidence? I suggest looking at a map of the area, where all of Bessarabia hangs on one thin thread of the bridge in Zatoka across the estuary, connecting it with the rest of Ukraine. If at the beginning of the Northern Military District our airborne landing force reached Voznesensk on the Yu. Bug much north of Nikolaev, and even blew up one of the bridges over the Yu. Bug there... But this was on the mainland, when Nikolaev and Odessa remained under the enemy in the rear ...Here we really do “We sing a song to the madness of the brave,” but here all the geography would be for us, look at the map!!!! It is unlikely that Moldova allowed the Ukrainian Armed Forces to go through its territory to release the blockade. Bessarabia is a kind of enclave in the Odessa region, cut off by the sea, the estuary and the borders of Moldova.

[tlauicol]

So how is it? How did the landing (tank) on Voznesenka end?
Abandoning amphibious assault in Bessarabia means killing him. And not solving problems

[Saburov_Alexander53]

Now yes, I agree! Especially taking into account the mining of not only coastal waters, but also the entire coast in dangerous zones for landings. And Ukraine was sufficiently armed with missiles to repel such an assault.
But I’m talking about the very beginning of the Northern Military District, when there was nothing like this, and if they were able to land troops in Gostomel, right next to Kiev, then it was easier to create a bridgehead on the remote and sparsely populated coast of Bessarabia. But I won’t insist, the General Staff knew better and they probably studied all the options and something held us back from landing troops in Bessarabia. I understand the futility of such a dispute in hindsight. These were just thoughts on paper, well not snot....

[Non-fighter]

And they would have received a second Gostomel, or, as an option, amphibious landings during the Great Patriotic War in approximately the same area. We landed, completed the task, the ground forces did not arrive, problems with supplies, evacuation “as necessary.”

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Not the fighter

And we would have received a second Gostomel,

Worse. Because the only escape direction would be the sea. And he doesn’t make you look like one of your own.

Quote: Not the fighter

or, as an option, amphibious landings during the Great Patriotic War in approximately the same area.

Sudak landing. At best - Eltigensky.

[Reindeer herder_2]

Quote: Saburov_Alexander53

Why such confidence?

Well, they landed in the country of Budzhak... then what?

It would have turned out worse than with Kherson
Let me remind you that:
1. Since 2016, on Sea Breeze, the “international” has been practicing landing in those places and methods of countering it
Back in 2021, ZSU Marines dug in there on 3 floors and prepared surprises for 5 years
2. To carry out a successful amphibious assault, you need dominance at sea, and for this you need dominance in the Internet, and for this, air defense must be suppressed and decentralized
3. The landing force must be supplied (by sea, of course), but with what? If the Kerch crossing cannot be launched by

[AAK]

Well, landing troops is not a problem at all, the problem is supplying them with missiles, shells and cartridges (unless the landing force has captured enemy warehouses with a suitable range of ammunition), fuel, lubricants, food, water, evacuating the wounded in a timely manner and receiving reinforcements, and most importantly provide the landing force with such weapons and military equipment that will ensure the landing force’s fire invulnerability (i.e. the landing force’s weapons must shoot further and more accurately than the enemy, the landing force must be covered by the main group’s aviation and have its own high-quality air defense) - therefore, our marine corps and coastal defense units include The landing force cannot carry out such a task with the available forces and means...

[Doctor]

. They would simply have lost the entire landing force killed and captured in a week, and the entire result.
As for the Bison... Well, yes, it's cool, an air cushion, unusual... That's where the advantages end. Ships should be built for military service, not for fun

If we organize everything like on Zmeiny, then yes, we will lose. And if there was a normal landing operation, then Odessa would already be ours.

But to do this, you need to correctly understand the tasks of the fleet and correctly formulate the composition of forces and assets. In peacetime.

So that when the time comes, you don’t have to drive an ocean cruiser with an offer of change.

[Serg65]

Quote: Arzt

To do this, you need to correctly understand the tasks of the fleet and correctly formulate the composition of forces and assets.

How nice it is to see competent admirals on the pages of VO!!!

[Doctor]

How nice it is to see competent admirals on the pages of VO!!!

Admirals have their own reasons, sometimes far from combat expediency, why should they create a “mosquito fleet” on the only warm sea?

Baltin told me that when the Commander of the 6th US Fleet went on vacation, he always called him up and said: “Edward, I’ll be at my ranch for a couple of weeks, I want to relax, let’s do it without incident.” And vice versa.

And if Eduard Dmitrievich had a horde of boats under his command, who would talk to him?

[Serg65]

Quote: Arzt

Baltin told me

Oooh, do you know Dmitrich closely? Maybe you know Oksana Ivanovna?

Quote: Arzt

The commander of the 6th US Fleet was going on vacation, he always called up and said

Interesting, interesting... the 6th Fleet, this is the Mediterranean Sea... the admiral became commander of the Black Sea Fleet at the end of 92... are you talking nonsense, my dear?!! In those days, the fleet could barely cope with the evacuations from Abkhazia and Poti, and you were already aiming at the US 6th Fleet!!!

[Doctor]

Oooh, do you know Dmitrich closely? Maybe you know Oksana Ivanovna?

Probably yes, if she was the one visiting him in the hospital.

Interesting, interesting... the 6th Fleet, this is the Mediterranean Sea... the admiral became commander of the Black Sea Fleet at the end of 92... are you talking nonsense, my dear?!! In those days, the fleet could barely cope with the evacuations from Abkhazia and Poti, and you were already aiming at the US 6th Fleet!!!

I bought it for what I sold it for, but I think there were direct contacts, of course. This was the time of “partnership”.

[Serg65]

Quote: Arzt

I think there were direct contacts, of course

You can think whatever you want, but under Baltin the fleet no longer went into combat service, and 5 OpESK fell into oblivion two weeks after Baltin was appointed to the fleet command!

[Senior seaman]

Quote: Serg65

but under Baltin the fleet no longer went into combat service

Is it?
It seems that in 1993 “Azov” and two TFRs ran to the Mediterranean....

[Serg65]

Quote: Senior Sailor

It seems that in 1993 “Azov” and two TFRs ran to the Mediterranean..

This campaign was connected with Yugoslavia, and not with combat service, and could not influence the vacation of the commander of the US 6th Fleet!

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Serg65

the admiral became commander of the Black Sea Fleet at the end of 92....are you talking nonsense, my dear?!! In those days, the fleet could barely cope with the evacuations from Abkhazia and Poti, and you were already aiming at the US 6th Fleet!!!

Giggles...do you remember the description of the evacuation of Chevy from Sukhumi? “Zubr” made its mark there.

Well, what about Maksimov and Kremenchutsky? At the end of autumn of the same 93, they sat in Donuzlav and drank awl. From time to time, the brigade commander took the award that had recently been presented to him and began to laugh:
- Seryoga, this is necessary!.. How many of the “shredders” did we give out then?
- Three thousand shells, comrade captain of the first rank.
- Three thousand, not counting the NURs!.. Was it necessary to think of this, after this, give us a tchotchke with the wording “For participation in a humanitarian action”?!

And there it was about survivability: one 23-mm projectile - and the MDK almost lost speed.

Ninety-third" - FKP. "Shilkas" are shot at point-blank range. I approached the shore at 3 cable lengths. A continuous curtain of fire. The oil line is damaged. There is no connection with the "fifty-five". I'm moving back

[tlauicol]

Yeah... And the Parade in Baltiysk, where even the raptors entered the harbor, but the Bison could not. The wind is headwind)). And this is in front of Himself

[Serg65]

Quote: Alexey RA

Do you remember the description of the evacuation of Chevy from Sukhumi?

I not only remember, but also saw the 93rd MDK at the Lesnaya pier in Novorossiysk! Well, I knew Viktor Vladimirovich not yet as a Ukrainian admiral...

[vadim dok]

“Everyone fancies himself a strategist, seeing the battle from the outside!” Sh. Rustaveli.

[George Sviridov]

Why would they lose the landing force?
There is only one road, or rather a bridge, which could be blown up if necessary. And then the dill would either have to land troops themselves or sail through the waters...
If the coastline is mined, then one brigade of marines there, reinforced by air defense and an engineering battalion, could hold positions as long as necessary, against virtually any large enemy force...
Moreover, if everything were really bad, our troops would always be able to retreat to the PMR.
But the Ukrops would have to put up significant forces against this brigade, which means that they would attack less near Kherson and Kharkov, and most importantly, military assistance would be much slower for them.
And so much slower that perhaps the SVO would have already ended...

[Saburov_Alexander53]

Georgiy Sviridov (Georgiy, I see you also have a good look at the map of this region and completely agree with my arguments. I’m really not so optimistic about the end of the Northern Military District, but cutting off Romania from supplies via the shortest land route and excluding all ports on the Danube... But however, I already said all this above.

[tlauicol]

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2103314.html
Order of forces for the landing of the brigade.
And this is without aviation and fire support ships. And mine sweeping forces. And supplies.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Georgy Sviridov

There is only one road, or rather a bridge, which could be blown up if necessary. And then the dill would either have to land troops themselves or sail through the waters...
If the coastline is mined, then one brigade of marines there, reinforced by air defense and an engineering battalion, could hold positions as long as necessary, against virtually any large enemy force...

How do you plan to supply all this splendor?
How much ammunition and fuel will a reinforced brigade consume in a day of battle? How many wounded will have to be evacuated and how many replacements will have to be brought in? The same questions regarding equipment to replace damaged and destroyed ones. And how to unload supplies if the enemy is shooting through the entire bridgehead?
We are not carrying out WHO against the Zusuls. Remember Berdyansk and the Saratov landing ship?
In general, we get another Snake. Only the enemy will not have problems with the range of the RAV and the placement of firing positions.

And in general, if the enemy is superior, the landing party has only two options - either the army quickly connects with it, or it dies.

[alexoff]

It was impossible to maneuver on Zmeinoy during shelling; the island was too small. But the question is what task was set at all, according to observations, to run where it turns out to run, and then defend, but without much persistence. So, of course, winning is problematic. And if you run in suddenly, burn down ports and power plants, disarm and send enemy soldiers into captivity, blow up bridges and sail back, then there will be few losses. As far as I remember, 30 thousand of us came from Crimea, including Kherson, Energodar, Mariupol, and Nikolaev. To put it mildly, it’s not enough to even reach Bessarabia

[Alexey RA]

Quote from alexoff

It was impossible to maneuver on Zmeinoy during shelling; the island was too small.

On Zmeiny, the main problem was that all suitable ships were discovered in advance. As a result, they were attacked either on the way or while unloading.

Quote from alexoff

And if you run in suddenly, burn down ports and power plants, disarm and send enemy soldiers into captivity, blow up bridges and sail back, then there will be few losses.

So we are having a raid operation? Even better - you also need to evacuate your forces under fire from suitable enemy reserves.
And yes, we should not forget that since 2014, for the marines and armed forces of Ukraine, strengthening the coastal defense and training to repel landings was the only way to stay as far as possible from the ATO. Therefore, in the Odessa area, the coastal defense was, at the very least, maintained in combat readiness.
And most importantly, why use manpower to destroy infrastructure? Since we are not going to occupy the territory, is it possible to get by with UAVs and missile defense systems - fortunately, this is the initial period of the operation and the air defense has not yet refocused on them.

Quote from alexoff

As far as I remember, 30 thousand of us came from Crimea, including Kherson, Energodar, Mariupol, and Nikolaev. To put it mildly, it’s not enough to even reach Bessarabia

And the alternative will be even less. Because the forces for the raid operation will have to be taken from these 30 thousand.

[alexoff]

Quote: Alexey RA

On Zmeiny, the main problem was that all suitable ships were discovered in advance. As a result, they were attacked either on the way or while unloading.

Let's say they were discovered, so what? There was constantly working air defense on Zmeinoy, after a raid in early May, when a couple of boats were hit by a bayraktar, these ships were unloading and loading, the tugboat was sunk near the towers because the air defense crew was asleep.

Quote: Alexey RA

Even better - you also need to evacuate your forces under fire from suitable enemy reserves.

But how much did it have to be allocated there? It seems to me that a couple of regiments could cope, just these two bison would be enough.

Quote: Alexey RA

And yes, we should not forget that since 2014, for the marines and armed forces of Ukraine, strengthening the coastal defense and training to repel landings was the only way to stay as far as possible from the ATO. Therefore, in the Odessa area, the coastal defense was, at the very least, maintained in combat readiness.

but I think we should know the locations of these fortifications, it seems that in the Black Sea Fleet most ships have artillery, that would work. Otherwise, it seems that it was not used for anything other than firing at boats. Or they could stupidly swim up to the bridge in Zatoka and smash it to pieces with direct fire. Otherwise, the strategy “what if they shoot at us, let’s better sit out in Novorossiysk” for some reason only works in the navy; other types of troops somehow manage to work under fire.

Quote: Alexey RA

And most importantly, why use manpower to destroy infrastructure? Since we are not going to occupy the territory, is it possible to get by with UAVs and missile defense systems - fortunately, this is the initial period of the operation and the air defense has not yet refocused on them.

But this would raise a big fuss that the enemies were advancing from the west, and would draw away some of the reserves. How do they know that this is a cunning plan, maybe other forces will land there according to Plan B, if successful. No one knew then that we had a combat-ready army of 100 thousand at most.

[Alexey RA]

Quote from alexoff

Let's say they were discovered, so what? There was constantly working air defense on Zmeinoy, after a raid in early May, when a couple of boats were hit by a bayraktar, these ships were unloading and loading, the tugboat was sunk near the towers because the air defense crew was asleep.

And a couple of sunken DKAs right at the pier? Moreover, this was on an island that was at the limit of the range of artillery, which, moreover, could only work from one direction. And on which the same full package of “Smerch” did not arrive.
And in the event of a landing on the mainland, the enemy’s choice of artillery positions is half the horizon. As soon as the ship begins to unload, arrivals will immediately begin.
Counter-battery warfare? Yeah, yeah, if the shells are found. In general, the situation will be like in Sevastopol during the last assault.

Quote from alexoff

But how much did it have to be allocated there? It seems to me that a couple of regiments could cope, just these two bison would be enough.

Well, if you throw everything heavy and grouped at the enemy and hit the l/s like a minibus, then yes. But the last units will run up the ramp already under fire.

Quote from alexoff

but I think we should know the locations of these fortifications, it seems that in the Black Sea Fleet most ships have artillery, that would work.

Yeah... either AK-100 or AK-176. But no, there are also AK-726 and ZIF-31. Against 152 mm 2A65.
Standing evacuation ships will simply be bombarded with shells and missiles from closed firing positions. And the fleet will not be able to do anything about it.

Quote from alexoff

Or they could stupidly swim up to the bridge in Zatoka and smash it to pieces with direct fire. Otherwise, the strategy “what if they shoot at us, let’s better sit out in Novorossiysk” for some reason only works in the navy; other types of troops somehow manage to work under fire.

In relation to ground forces tactics "swim up and shoot" looks like "let's drive up to enemy positions across an open field in an armored personnel carrier and shoot them"We have been observing the results of such tactics since July.

Quote from alexoff

No one knew then that we had a combat-ready army of 100 thousand at most.

Lord... yes, the number of our armed forces has been sucked in since the time of the Serdyukov-Makarov reform, sabotaged and emasculated by the army. How many times have they compared the size of the Ground Forces with the same Russian National Guard, and discussed the degradation of Serdyukov’s contract-based, well-coordinated brigades of constant readiness into an amorphous something filled with conscripts and cadre units. And everyone knows perfectly well that without a declaration of war, conscripts will not go into battle - which means we can safely divide the SV in half.

[alexoff]

Quote: Alexey RA

And a couple of sunken DKAs right at the pier? Moreover, this was on an island that was at the limit of the range of artillery, which, moreover, could only work from one direction.

Are these the ones who knocked out the bayraktars? This is a question for the naval commanders, why they didn’t send normal air defense, but limited themselves to one shell on an island without TZM.

Quote: Alexey RA

And in the event of a landing on the mainland, the enemy’s choice of artillery positions is half the horizon.

did the enemy really know what and where he would land? There on February 22, 2022, how many of this enemy were there and how much artillery and warehouses were available? And we, accordingly, did not know what and where he had?

Quote: Alexey RA

As soon as the ship begins to unload, arrivals will immediately begin.

Surprisingly, the Atlantic Wall was erected in Bukovina!

Quote: Alexey RA

But the last units will run up the ramp already under fire.

Surely the tank brigade was stationed there? Together with a couple of motorized infantry?

Quote: Alexey RA

Yeah... either AK-100 or AK-176. But no, there are also AK-726 and ZIF-31. Against 152 mm 2A65.

were there such howitzers along the shore? Well, that means if you draw up a preliminary plan, you can do something with electronic warfare so that the incredible Ukrainian counter-battery systems, placed under every bush, cannot transmit the coordinates of ships, which seem to have an advantage in rate of fire.

Quote: Alexey RA

Standing evacuation ships will simply be bombarded with shells and missiles from closed firing positions. And the fleet will not be able to do anything about it.

To which drugs, ammunition and guns were previously delivered? Or do you think that they will be exporting there for a couple of weeks?

Quote: Alexey RA

When applied to ground forces, the “swim up and shoot” tactic looks like “let’s drive up to enemy positions across an open field in an armored personnel carrier and shoot them.”

Are there enemy positions on the bridge in Zatoka? Probably there are the ubiquitous harpoons, tornadoes, points, etc.? They are waiting, so to speak, for someone to arrive.

Quote: Alexey RA

We have been seeing the results of this tactic since July.

what are you talking about?

As I understand it, in your understanding, Ukraine is an incredibly militarized besieged fortress, mega-Israel, Atlantic walls along the coast and along all borders, instant transfer of troops and weapons anywhere, satellites simply patrol over it and update the global map every two minutes. Because we have what we have and it’s better to sit and do nothing, otherwise suddenly it will be like in July

[Yaroslav Tekkel]

Quote: Alexey RA

How many times...have we discussed the degradation of Serdyukov's contract-based, well-coordinated brigades of constant readiness into an amorphous something filled with conscripts and cadre units.

This has never been discussed. In any case, at VO. Everyone just remembered how under late Yeltsin/early Putin there were 100500 divisions and higher education institutions more than in the entire NATO and China together, but under the damned furniture maker there was nothing. They don’t like to remember how they scooped up everything from all over the country to Chechnya alone (at that time not excluding conscripts), including the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the Cosmonaut Corps and the Department of Monument Protection.

[Romario_Argo]

I agree about the SVP - we need skeg-type landing ships similar to the MRK pr. 1239 Sivuch
with 8 superchargers, they, like the MDKVP (4 superchargers), will be able to go ashore
in the USSR there was a project 10210 BOD Bison and there was also a preliminary design of a variant of the BDK

[alstr]

However, they also say about airborne assaults that they are useless, because... they will be shot down immediately.
However, at the beginning of the Northern Military District, the landing near Kyiv ended successfully and with minor losses.

The same can be said about landing ships. The main thing here is not the ships themselves, but how they are used (and in general this applies to all equipment). If you calculate and prepare everything correctly, then you can carry out a completely normal landing operation.
Our only problem is that we do not have normal interaction between the army and navy. And unfortunately, this did not start yesterday, but has been going on since the Second World War.

[Yaroslav Tekkel]

Quote: alstr

However, at the beginning of the Northern Military District, the landing near Kyiv ended successfully and with minor losses.

We don’t know the losses; they were specially classified much in advance. If you have data and are not afraid of the article, you can share.

[Sergey39]

Ordinary statistics. Today, the Black Sea Fleet includes 6 BDKs, taking into account the decommissioning of the Saratov BDK, 6 landing boats (not to be confused with Raptors). Plus in the Black Sea there are 6 large landing craft (SF and BF), 5 crocodiles and one 11711 (Petr Morgunov). Of these, two damaged crocodiles are being repaired.

[ramzay21]

However, our General Staff knew better and we went to Sumy and Chernigov, which we could not hold.

The question is not that our army could not hold it, but that at first the General Staff developed an unrealistic plan based on fictitious intelligence, and then our guarantor and the oligarchy committed betrayal, calling it a gesture of goodwill.
Sumy and Chernigov could and should have been taken, and if airborne units including the 45th brigade of the SpnVDV would have been deployed not west of Kiev on Gostomel, but to take on the move first Sumy and then Chernigov and regional centers, while mobilizing and saturating the rear areas with units from the mobilized ones and destroying bridges across the Dnieper, then the NWO would have ended in 2022.

And the amphibious assault could have been successful if at least one frigate 22350, three corvettes 20380/20385 had been transferred to the Black Sea Fleet, reinforced with aviation and RTR aircraft, and the bridge in Zatoka had been immediately destroyed.

[bayard]

Quote: Saburov_Alexander53

But they didn’t act this way at the beginning of the Northern Military District, which means there were reasons for this and, most likely, it was precisely the lack of funds for the landing and its support, supplies from the sea.

There were just enough delivery vehicles; 5 BDKs from the Baltic and 5 BDKs from the Pacific Fleet arrived at the World Cup, totaling about 17 BDKs. This is quite enough to carry out an amphibious operation to land a full-fledged brigade at a time, and then build up forces on the bridgehead. What was missing was precisely the personnel, the total number of troops of the Northern Military District group. And then they swung it like that - from six directions, on a common front of over 2000 km. There is general planning and adventurism in the hope of a quick surrender of the enemy.
And today there are quite enough landing forces for the World Cup. There are no needs or conditions.
Regarding the Zubrov, there were plans to resume their production since 2015 at the Sea Shipyard, but there are problems with the propulsion systems. So maybe they will start building them over time.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: parusnik

With your comment, we can end the discussion of the article.

Well why not? You can take the next paragraph of the same speech by VVP.

We had a defense industry - cool, strong, and we are still proud of it. We are grateful to our grandfathers and our fathers for creating such a defense after the Great Patriotic War.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Amateur

Another one of the galoshes from the Soviet military-industrial complex.

Is it weak to cite the entire quote without taking the phrase out of context? Or does it not fit into the training manual about the anti-Soviet Putin?

Yes, my dear, yes. No need to discuss. The fact is that what we produced (and we don’t have to wave our hands), nobody needed, because nobody bought our galoshes, except for the Africans, who had to walk on the hot sand. That is the whole point.
We had a defense industry - cool, strong, and we are still proud of it. We are grateful to our grandfathers and our fathers for creating such a defense after the Great Patriotic War.
From the audience: ... And the first satellite.
Vladimir Putin: Both the first satellite and the first man in space are our common pride, these are the achievements of the Soviet government, of which we are all proud. These are nationwide achievements.
But consumer goods… Zhirinovsky has already said this. Where were they? There were none. Let's not lie to each other and the people. The people know what was and what was not.

[steelmaker]

“It’s too weak to give the whole quotation,”
You can justify it ad infinitum. The stupidity Putin said will stay with him forever!! And this was said due to lack of education. And even now, those who are friends with education will not speak positively about Chubais’s activities. Or you, like Putin, don’t understand why Chubais left!

[Alexey RA]

Quote: steel maker

You can justify it ad infinitum. The stupidity Putin said will stay with him forever!!

What nonsense? About Soviet consumer goods, the collective image of which became galoshes? So this is not stupidity, but even an embellishment of the situation. No, here and there we sometimes encountered individual samples that were not inferior to Western ones (often licked from them), but in general, mass Soviet consumer goods were waste from the defense complex, collected under the motto “it will do” (for example, a cassette player with the board was soldered with such snot that during assembly they short-circuited to the frame). All the same, the ordinary Soviet person had no choice - so if he buys the products of the Third Damage Factory, he won’t go anywhere. And in general, did the factory fulfill the production plan? Performed. And let the trade have a headache about sales.
It’s not for nothing that the symbol of prosperity in the USSR was to dress in imported clothes and furnish an apartment with imported goods. And the main term of commodity-money relations is “get.” Not buy, namely get it.

And it’s stupid to cut off the quote, transferring the words spoken by VVP about Soviet consumer goods to the entire Soviet industry. However, why they do this is understandable. Well, the words about "don't fit in"our common pride is the achievements of Soviet power, of which we are all proud" into the manual of the "adherents of the holy USSR" - fighters against bourgeoisie, scribbling from cozy bourgeois offices.

[alexoff]

It was not easy with consumer goods, Zenit cameras were made at KMZ, all the defects with scratches and other things went to Soviet stores, everything good was exported.

[KERMET]

training manual about the anti-adviser Putin?

Did I miss something, that Putin suddenly stopped being an anti-Soviet? Started advocating the abolition of private ownership of the means of production?

[Foxmara]

Amateurs like to take phrases out of context without using their brains to process information that exceeds more than a couple of sentences

[Vadim S]

An excellent ship, but as it turns out, we don’t need them. All that remains is to admire what the engineers of the lost country were able to do before.

[Dedok]

Quote: Vadim S

An excellent ship, but as it turns out, we don’t need them. All that remains is to admire what the engineers of the lost country were able to do before.

in today's realities, this is a mass grave for 500 people, but yes, it’s beautiful

[Waterways 672]

They began experimenting with hovercraft before the war; Tukhachevsky supervised this matter. Construction began in the late 60s. Before the Zubrov, there were other ships of this type - in Baltiysk, in the late 70s, the Dzheyrans were based, for example. Speed ​​is the main advantage of these ships; the BDK and KFOR moved at a speed of about 15 knots in total.

[Vladimir80]

Based on today’s realities, I don’t even know where such ships could be used. In case of an emergency, it is probably possible to deliver rescuers and rescue the victims if the coast is flat...

[George Sviridov]

Yes, they can be used everywhere, only 1 launcher needs to be replaced with air defense, such as a sea shell and that’s all.
Moreover, in a large landing, it may not be as good as a full-fledged large landing ship, but it is indispensable for supplying supplies to its landing force. Because you can quickly pick up, unload and leave, and you can always unload in different places, unequipped.
That is, as they hit the dots standing in the port of Berdyansk, it would be virtually impossible to do here.

[Vladimir80]

Yes, they can be used everywhere, only 1 launcher needs to be replaced with air defense, such as a sea shell and that’s all.

well, go and replace it... as if it were so simple and effective...

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Georgy Sviridov

Moreover, it may not be as good as a full-fledged large landing ship in a large landing, but it is indispensable for supplying supplies to its landing force.

And the enemy will sleep, covered with a pillow. And he won’t notice a target the size of two Khrushchevs rushing at 55 knots. And he won’t hear her either.

Quote: Georgy Sviridov

Because you can quickly pick up, unload and leave, and you can always unload in different places, unequipped.

Yes, yes, yes... at the boundary of a liquid vacuum and a half-plane, this may work. But in reality, you need a beach with a road to it, passable for trucks and possibly trawls. Otherwise, we’ll either split our skirt, or we’ll sit on our bellies on a stone, or the DKVP will leave - and the enemy will strike at the unloading site and destroy everything that they didn’t manage to take out due to the lack of a normal entrance.

[tlauicol]

Yeah, like in Abkhazia in the 90s. Fast and discreet

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Tlauicol

Yeah, like in Abkhazia in the 90s. Fast and discreet

Slightly stunned by the sudden cannonade, the “half hundred and fifth” hastily taxied back to the tangerines. And from there he began to thoughtfully study the situation. She was funny. In the darkness, the Abkhazians mistook the roar of the MDK engines for a raid by enemy attack aircraft. And in response, they worked hard, firing toward the sea with all the anti-aircraft guns they had.

The quadruple Shilok machine guns were choked with barking. The towed ZUshki crackled dryly. Someone foolishly even fired a MANPADS. We were terribly happy when “Zubr” used rap: “Wah! One was shot down!”

© “If anything happens, write that I’m crazy!..” or naval tale No. 4. Part three.

[Reindeer herder_2]

Quote: Vladimir80

Based on today’s realities, I don’t even know where such ships could be used

Yes. To save stubborn ice fishing lovers in the Baltic, Ladoga and beyond.
-----
In what place to land troops and with what forces at the present time: there is no idea, especially looking at the KChF fighting back in the Sevastopol roadstead

[Maks1995]

It seems they wrote that they stopped making them during the USSR.
Like, they are very expensive themselves, and very expensive to operate.
You don’t drive back and forth like regular ships.

Amer’s similar ones are much smaller - just boats for landing the 1st tank...

[Serg65]

ships remain relevant and unique

Unique yes! And relevant for what?
Do we have a doctrine of amphibious operations? For example, in the 80s of the last century, the KChF included the 39th DMDS, it was intended to capture the Black Sea straits! The 71st BrDC of the Red Banner Baltic Fleet was supposed to, together with the 3rd Army of the Polish Army, capture the Baltic Straits.
What do we want to capture now?

Quote: Saburov_Alexander53

at the beginning of the Northern Military District they focused on the Black Sea coast and landed troops south of Zatoka,

To land such an assault force, there must be at least a mixed assault-bomber aviation division, a fighter air division, and a mixed assault transport helicopter division in Crimea! The Black Sea Fleet must have a division of the NK artillery support for the landing! Well, the cherry on the cake... to strengthen the landing force you will need a combined arms division with all the reinforcements, including a couple of air defense regiments!
Otherwise, your entire landing force will simply die!

[Doctor]

Unique yes! And relevant for what?
Do we have a doctrine of amphibious operations? For example, in the 80s of the last century, the KChF included the 39th DMDS, it was intended to capture the Black Sea straits! The 71st BrDC of the Red Banner Baltic Fleet was supposed to, together with the 3rd Army of the Polish Army, capture the Baltic Straits.
What do we want to capture now?

There is no doctrine, but there are landings. And countering enemy landings. Every war we do this at the Black Sea Fleet, the cruisers are in bases or already at the bottom, and the landing is on anything.

[Serg65]

Quote: Arzt

there are landings

Do you have any idea what a full-fledged tactical amphibious assault is and what kind of force should be allocated for this? Moreover, you announced to capture a city with a population of over a million using a landing party!

Quote: Arzt

This is what we do at the Black Sea Fleet every war.

I don’t know what you’re doing there at the Black Sea Fleet, but you don’t know the history of the issue at all!

[Doctor]

I don’t know what you’re doing there at the Black Sea Fleet, but you don’t know the history of the issue at all!

But I'm trying to find out! I’m always looking for something like this on VO: “Operation of the 2nd aircraft carrier division of the KChF to search for and destroy the battleship Bismarck.”

I open it today, and there again: “Battle for Crimea: Kerch-Feodosia landing operation.”

[Serg65]

Quote: Arzt

Opening today

Open Operation “Jubilee” and compare it with the Kerch-Feodosia operation that you so hated! It will be an instructive comparison! Moreover, both took place in the same year.

[Doctor]

Open Operation “Jubilee” and compare it with the Kerch-Feodosia operation that you so hated! It will be an instructive comparison! Moreover, both took place in the same year.

I read it, compared it, our landing was successful, I think the Anglo-Canadian landing was a failure. It’s not clear why I “hate” Kerch-Feodosia.

I’m not criticizing the sailors; they are just as hostage to the situation as military doctors, for example. First, the optimizers optimized, and now give me the result.

In fact, I probably expressed my thoughts vaguely, I’ll try to clarify.

1. In almost all wars on the Black Sea, Russia has a need to conduct amphibious assaults or counter enemy forces. The same can be said about the Baltic.
2. This is not the only task facing these fleets, but one of the most important, deciding the fate of Crimea several times in 200 years.
3. To accomplish this task, appropriate forces and means must be created in advance, in peacetime, tactics of use must be worked out, in general, as you said, there must be a doctrine of landing operations.
4. Instead of a correct concept of the state of the Black Sea Fleet, corresponding to the theater of military operations, the possible development of the course of the war, confirmed by multiple historical examples, we have a fleet on the Black Sea (or rather, bits of it), created according to Gorshkov’s notes, responding to the opportunistic considerations of individuals, and unable to adequately carry out tasks in a real war.
5. As a result of an erroneous concept, most of the ships of the fleet are defended in bases (and sometimes self-heated), and sailors fight in the trenches along with ordinary infantry.
6. Since no one has canceled the tasks, the fleet is forced to carry them out with the means that are available, such as landing from cruisers in the same Kerch-Feodosia operation. The personnel, as always, show miracles of heroism, paying for the lack of professionalism of the top management. (NOT Navy leadership ).
7. The ship pr.12322 “Bison” is an excellent landing ship for the Black Sea. Not perfect, but great. If the KChF had 2 dozen such ships, in combination with 3 marine brigades, then, with the support of 20 small missile launchers and strategic missile carriers, it would have been quite possible to carry out a full-fledged amphibious landing in the Odessa area with the subsequent development of the operation.
Maybe the entire North Military District would have gone differently.

I understand that this is the reasoning of an amateur, well, at least I’ll amuse the experts.

[Serg65]

Quote: Arzt

I don't criticize sailors

Unfortunately, I don’t know what name your parents gave you, but it will have to be...
Arzt, the whole problem of amateurs is that they consider the fleet to be a separate branch of the military! The fleet has been a continuation of state policy for about 50 years and is being developed in accordance with foreign policy! I’ll try to explain this using the example of the Black Sea Fleet...
I know of only two wars during which the Black Sea Fleet was charged with landing operations. This is the First World War, with its tactical landings on the northern coast of Turkey and preparations for the landing on the Bosphorus and the Second World War with tactical landings in Odessa, Crimea and the North Caucasus. Well, preparations for the 3rd World War with the desire to capture the same Black Sea straits. In accordance with this, the construction of the Black Sea Fleet proceeded. Under the Tsar-Father, Catherine II, Chesma, Sinop and Elpidiphora. Comrade Stalin took a different path, based on the great role of the USSR in the victory over Germany, and demanded a naval base in the Dardanelles Strait and free passage through the Black Sea straits! Thus, an impressive squadron consisting of seven cruisers and two battleships appears in the Black Sea Fleet; the issue of landing in Istanbul was not considered. The man “Rockets, our everything” decided that, in one fell swoop, we would beat everyone, he ordered not only artillery, tanks and planes, but also ships to be turned into metal. He was echoed by the Grand Marshal of Victory, who destroyed the Marine Corps as a branch of the military hostile to the Soviet people! As a result, the cruiser Kutuzov, the cruiser Kuibyshev, the training cruiser Dzerzhinsky and that’s it! Everything would be fine, but in 1964 something unexpected happened, namely...Comrade Khrushchev decided to visit Egypt and he set off for the land of the pyramids on the motor ship Armenia through the Black Sea Straits. While in the Aegean Sea, Nikita Sergeevich indignantly asked Gorshkov... Sergei, NATO warships are rubbing around us, but where are our ships? So they cut them according to your order! From this moment on, the Soviet fleet found a new life! For political and military influence, OpEsK began to be created in the seas and oceans, and ships of the corresponding nature were created for them, taking into account the capabilities of industry. This is how missile semi-destroyers, semi-cruisers and the famous Orlans appeared in the Soviet fleet. The Marine Corps was revived, but its tactics changed...now the Marines carried out combat service far from their homeland and were a good support for state policy in Africa, the Middle East, and Southeast Asia, which is why large-capacity ships were built for them. Under the aging Brezhnev, the duo of Andropov and Ustinov came to power. Under them, there was no longer any policy in the development of not only the fleet but the entire army, the military-industrial complex must work without stopping... and away we go, nuclear cruisers, nuclear aircraft carriers, 1500 projects of nuclear boats, sub-destroyers, sub-BOD, ekranoplanes.... and the same the very Bisons, in general, some go to the forest, some for firewood! The intractable Commander-in-Chief of the Navy was replaced with an accommodating one, and then the northern animal came to visit the USSR! We will modestly skip the 90s. The modern world is globalization, but does globalization have a vulnerable point? It turns out there is, it’s energy! The modern Russian state did not lose, having decided to play on the value of energy! Why should we seize the straits with the help of the fleet if cheap gas and oil can do it perfectly? This policy also influenced the development of the modern fleet - the defense of its borders, ensuring the combat activities of SSBNs, and the protection of international trade sea routes!
Well, something like this...briefly about the principles of construction and use of the fleet!

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Serg65

The man “Rockets, our everything” decided that, in one fell swoop, we would beat everyone, he ordered not only artillery, tanks and planes, but also ships to be turned into metal.

And he was right. Because the order and construction in the late 50s of purely artillery cruisers of a converted pre-war design with air defense at the level of the second half of WWII and even worse (I’m talking about MZA) can only be called sabotage. The picture is the same with destroyers - Project 30-bis, equivalent to the EM of the beginning of WWII, and Project 56 - at the level of the end of WWII.
Moreover, as soon as the 56th project acquired a URO, the claims against it immediately disappeared. But Project 68-bis was killed by the sailors themselves, who spent a couple of years bogging down two projects for rebuilding the artillery cruiser in the Kyrgyz Republic Air Defense in approvals and re-approvals. Moreover, the industrial facilities were ready for work. But the fleet thought that it had time... and waited until after another disagreement with them about the project, a decision was made from above to stop construction.
By the way, it was under the National Agriculture Council that the mass construction of “singing frigates” Project 61 began.
Underwater missile launching also made sense - at that time, submarines were the only means, at least in theory, to bring missiles with SBCs capable of reaching the United States to the launch area. The development of ICBMs was proceeding with difficulty, so the emphasis had to be placed on submarines with SLBMs and SLCMs.

And as for airplanes... who in the late 50s needs purely cannon fighters and bombers with cast iron - especially against the background of the growth of enemy air defense? After the massive deployment of the Nike series air defense systems, strategists had no chance at all to bomb the enemy. So the emphasis was on URO. And those from the design bureau who were able to convert their vehicles to URO continued to produce them. The most striking example is the Tupolev Design Bureau, whose bombers were transformed into carriers of ALCMs and anti-ship missiles and served until the end of the USSR and beyond. But Ilyushin failed in the URO - and the Il-28 was scrapped.

[Serg65]

Quote: Alexey RA

And was right

Oh Alexey, the fleet did not recover from this rightness until the collapse of the USSR!
The same 68th, 30bis, 56th and even 26bis, until the mid-80s, pulled the burden of military service far from their homeland!
The question is not about pity for old ships, the question is about replacing these ships! But there was no replacement... Well, this is not so important, with the ships being scrapped, the personnel were also completely written off, and this led to a decline in professionalism and respect for rank. The result of these reforms came back to haunt the 80s and 90s, Chernavin, Gromov, Kuroyedov, Popov...these are the brightest personalities of that period! And even now a sailor is a rarity in the navy, only navigators!

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Serg65

Oh Alexey, the fleet did not recover from this rightness until the collapse of the USSR!
The same 68th, 30bis, 56th and even 26bis, until the mid-80s, pulled the burden of military service far from their homeland!

Right. Because the comrade admirals held on to their ships until the last - so sometimes, after the next modernization, they went into reserve or even for dismantling.
The fleet, burdened with the weights of ships of the past era, spent forces and resources on maintaining them in service, taking them away from ships that had real combat value. Despite the fact that these relics could only demonstrate the flag and monitor the enemy in peacetime.
However, this is not the first time - just remember the RIF of the early XNUMXth century with its “tail” of semi-armored frigates and armored tower boats of the past era.
There is no need to talk about fire support for landing forces - keeping a dozen cruisers for this, which themselves need cover, is a little irrational.

Quote: Serg65

Well, this is not so important; when ships were scrapped, the personnel were also completely written off, and this led to a decline in professionalism and respect for rank.

And what kind of professionalism did the crews of steam turbine artillery ships have in relation to the same gas turbine BODs with air defense systems or EM URO pr. 58?
And, EMNIP, the main blow of the NSH fell not on the fleet, but on the shipyards - first of all, it freed the stocks from ships of old projects for the construction of a merchant fleet in their place.

[Serg65]

Quote: Alexey RA

fellow admirals held on to their ships until the last

My friend, when did the fleet begin to receive full-fledged guided missile ships? And in what quantity? How many OpEsks did we have? With what kind of MODERN ROCKET ships could the USSR Navy provide combat service in the oceans, for example, at the end of 1979?

Quote: Alexey RA

And what kind of professionalism did the crews of steam turbine artillery ships have in relation to the same gas turbine BODs with air defense systems or EM URO pr. 58?

So are you all about technology? People, that was the real value! Who could you gain experience from...at the turbine? Zhukov, by a strong-willed decision, destroyed the institution of long-term conscripts, how did this affect the maintenance of ship mechanisms? Alexey, you are speaking theoretically, in theory everything is correct, but there is also the daily life of the fleet! Who will teach the commander of a ship not to ram the wall when mooring if the brigade commander himself does not have these skills? At the end of the 80s, on the Black Sea squadron, I knew only two people who could enter the base at full speed and bring the stern to the wall so that all that remained was to throw the ropes over the bollards without going ashore!

Quote: Alexey RA

The fleet, burdened with the weights of ships of the past era, spent forces and resources on maintaining them in service, taking them away from ships that had real combat value

My friend, what will you order to fulfill the ever-growing ambitions of the Soviet leadership in foreign policy? It’s not for nothing that I mentioned 1979 above....the entry of Soviet troops into Afghanistan, who covered their southwestern flank from two AUGs in the Strait of Hormuz? ONE BOD Discreet! One against two AUG! Here you go

EMNIP

I’m not opposed to re-equipping the fleet, but don’t first wave your saber and then think about how to put the severed head back on!

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Serg65

My friend, when did the fleet begin to receive full-fledged guided missile ships?

Under Khrushchev.

Quote: Serg65

And in what quantity?

If Khrushchev had not stopped the construction of old projects, there would have been even fewer new ships. Because our shipbuilding industry is not made of rubber.

Quote: Serg65

With what kind of MODERN ROCKET ships could the USSR Navy provide combat service in the oceans, for example, at the end of 1979?

How could artillery cruisers and destroyers of pre-war projects provide combat service? Serve as targets in order to in which case did the adversary spend some of the missiles on them?

Quote: Serg65

Who will teach the commander of a ship not to ram the wall when mooring if the brigade commander himself does not have these skills?

Will the skills acquired on a ship with a rather inertial power plant help control a ship with a gas turbine?

Quote: Serg65

It’s not for nothing that I mentioned 1979 above....the entry of Soviet troops into Afghanistan, who covered their southwestern flank from two AUGs in the Strait of Hormuz? ONE BOD Discreet!

Well, an uncut pair of artillery ships would join it - so what? The Yankees would just laugh.
The admirals had a chance to turn Project 68-bis into an air defense cruiser. Yes, the M-2 "Volkhov" was not sugar - but against the background of KSShch and liquid-propelled SLBMs with surface launch, it did not particularly stand out. And then the M-11 “Storm” would have arrived in time.
And the SME was ready to start work. But the navy drowned everything in approvals - and lost 7 new air defense missile systems and the chance to modernize 10-12 old air defense missile systems into something more suitable for the new realities of war at sea.

Quote: Serg65

I’m not opposed to re-equipping the fleet, but don’t first wave your saber and then think about how to put the severed head back on!

So they thought - since 1959, the series pr. 61. Plus 57 bis began. And then - pr. 1123 and 1134.

[Serg65]

Quote: Alexey RA

How could artillery cruisers and destroyers of pre-war projects provide combat service?

The funny thing is that it was these old galoshes that were the backbone of the USSR Navy until the mid-70s! Regarding Project 61, Project 57 bis, Project 1123 and Project 1134...34 ships on the 4th theater of operations, and the last three are based on the principle...what we do is what we get, because there’s no point in messing around!!! Especially 57 bis! The charge was fired as much as 10 km further than the B-38 and at whose expense is such a banquet?
Once again, Alexey...the fact that the army needs to be rearmed and reformed is not discussed! The question is how to reform? Is the industry ready for this reform? What do we generally want to see as a result of reforms? Or is the main thing to start? Here you are again writing about cruisers, hating admirals.... but here 10 difficult-to-maintain Soviet missiles came together, 144 Terriers on Boston alone and the S-125, which was put into service 3 years after the start of work on the M- 2!

Quote: Alexey RA

Will the skills acquired on a ship with a rather inertial power plant help control a ship with a gas turbine?

Those two officers about whom I spoke above, before being appointed commander and first officer at the RKR Slava and the BOD Ochakov, both served on destroyers... Moskalenko on 30 bis, Ryzhenko on 56! An experience is when a sleepy person, slightly opening one eye, will give out the exact parameters of wind speed, sea waves and the speed of the ship!

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Arzt

I open it today, and there again: “Battle for Crimea: Kerch-Feodosia landing operation.”

This is exactly what we will succeed with the Sudak landing force, landed to support the Kerch-Feodosia MDO.

[Doctor]

Quote: Arzt
I open it today, and there again: “Battle for Crimea: Kerch-Feodosia landing operation.”

This is exactly what we will succeed with the Sudak landing force, landed to support the Kerch-Feodosia MDO. sad

It worked, yes. But we’re talking about landing craft and operations, right?
For which, those who were preparing, are still not preparing.

...In the Kerch area, the landing was much more complicated: the infantry landed directly into the icy sea and walked to the shore in chest-deep water. Hypothermia caused great losses...

...The cruiser "Red Caucasus", which landed paratroopers and artillery on the pier of the Feodosia port, received heavy damage from enemy fire and barely reached Novorossiysk. 23 people in the crew died, 5 died from wounds and 76 were wounded...

....air defense systems were not delivered to the port of Feodosia in a timely manner. As a result, until January 4, 5 transports were killed by enemy aircraft: “Krasnogvardeets”, “Zyryanin” and others...

[Doctor]

To land such an assault force, there must be at least a mixed assault-bomber aviation division, a fighter air division, and a mixed assault transport helicopter division in Crimea! The Black Sea Fleet must have a division of the NK artillery support for the landing! Well, the cherry on the cake... to strengthen the landing force you will need a combined arms division with all the reinforcements, including a couple of air defense regiments!
Otherwise, your entire landing force will simply die!

At present times: in depth - missile-carrying strategists, the coast of the landing zone - MRKs and corvettes, in the first echelon - 10-15 MP battalions on Zubrs, then the main forces on transport vehicles.

[Serg65]

Quote: Arzt

For the present

Thank God that you are just an armchair admiral, with this you saved thousands of lives of Russian military personnel!

[Doctor]

Thank God that you are just an armchair admiral, with this you saved thousands of lives of Russian military personnel!

Definitely. According to principle:
- You are strong, you can handle it!
- I’m smart, I won’t even take it...

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Serg65

Well, the cherry on the cake... to strengthen the landing force you will need a combined arms division with all the reinforcements, including a couple of air defense regiments!
Otherwise, your entire landing force will simply die!

Supply issues were not considered when planning the operation due to their obvious impracticability.

[Serg65]

Quote: Alexey RA

Supply issues were not considered when planning the operation.

What for? We are on a dashing horse on water, yaks on dry land....one, one, and kings!!!

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Serg65

What for? We are on a dashing horse on water, yaks on dry land....one, one, and kings!!!

Hmmm... this is an idea: build a dam from Crimea to Odessa - and advance along it!
Much more realistic and less expensive than the MDO performed by the KChF.

[Sergey39]

DCVP have their own peculiarities in application. They cannot move in a general order due to their speed. They have a cruising range of 300 miles.

DKVP under repair Yantar, before Navy Day 2023.

[South Ukrainian]

Quote: Georgy Sviridov

there, one brigade of Marines, reinforced by air defense and engineering battalions, could hold positions as long as necessary,

In the case you describe, the enemy would be on the northern bank of the Dniester estuary. Its length is 40 km. width 12-4 km. This means that for passive defense along the shore of the estuary, taking into account the width and difficult places for landing, at least several divisions are needed. And they would have to be supplied by sea. Yes, and if you knew where you would fall, you could lay down straws....

[Alekc]

While they are arguing that our landing would be doomed, the Ukrainians are going to carry out their own to the Crimea
Everything would have been normal; the landing on Melitopol confirmed this. It was necessary to take Odessa, it was necessary. But there were other plans.

[bone1]

How can something that still has no analogues become morally obsolete?

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Bone1

How can something that still has no analogues become morally obsolete?

In the same way that attack ekranoplanes became outdated - after it was explained to the admirals that enemy naval formations always operate in cooperation with aviation, for which the radio visibility of targets in WWII is measured in hundreds of kilometers from the order.

[Vashek]

I remember how in the 90s two Bison corps lay for a long time on the Malaya Neva opposite the Almaz, sparkling with aluminum. Then they disappeared.

[JD1979]

Yes, the boat looks very interesting. From an engineering point of view, everything is great, but from a practical point of view... it’s useless.
1. The ships are rigidly tied to the bases. And they can only be used in a few places - the Black and Baltic seas. Compare them with BDK or UDC...
2. Absolutely unviable with adequate defense or at least the presence of ATGMs or mortars from the enemy at the time of landing on the shore. It can only be used in places where there is really no one waiting, or transfer to an already occupied shore. In reality, there will be neither the first nor the second.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: JD1979

2. Absolutely unviable with adequate defense or at least the presence of ATGMs or mortars from the enemy at the time of landing on the shore.

Or any automatic guns. The "Zubr" near Sukhumi almost lost its speed due to one successful hit by a 23-mm BZT projectile.

[barbos]

Does he have air defense systems? To chase helicopters, although it is better to shoot them down and drones too. Now the allies are doing their best with reconnaissance; they won’t just let anyone approach the shore undetected. And if the ground forces do not have time to pull up, then sending a UAV will not be a particular problem.

[Major Kosukhin]

Dumb compilation of a couple of articles and no arguments

[Russian Patriot]

The legacy of a lost highly developed civilization