On a foreign base: restoration of Ukrainian air defense facilities and its failure

Launchers of American air defense systems transferred to Ukraine in August 2023. In the foreground is the Patriot launcher, behind it is NASAMS. Photo Telegram / "Military informant"

During the first few months of the Special Operation to Protect Donbas, the Russian army destroyed the Kyiv regime's air defense system with targeted strikes. To restore it, starting last fall, foreign partners and patrons began supplying Ukraine with various air defense systems, both modern and obsolete. By now, it has become clear that such measures have not lived up to expectations - Ukraine has not been able to fully restore its Defense and protect themselves from attacks even on key military targets.

Equipment from abroad

The process of restoring the Ukrainian air defense facility actually started in the spring of 2022. After some discussions and consultations, Slovakia agreed to give Ukraine the S-300P system it had. Subsequently, despite all the efforts of the Kyiv regime and its patrons, other countries did not provide Soviet and Russian-made equipment.

In July, the United States and other countries announced the imminent start of deliveries of the NASAMS stationary medium-range air defense system. The first products of this type arrived on Ukrainian territory in early autumn. To date, Kyiv has received at least four batteries of this complex from several foreign countries and now keeps them on combat duty.

Ukrainian crews are working with Patriot. Photo: Thedrive.com

Since last year, Germany has provided several batteries of IRIS-T systems of two modifications with rockets different ranges. After lengthy preparations and resolving various issues, France and Italy jointly assembled and sent one battery of SAMP/T air defense missile systems to Ukraine.

For obvious reasons, the most famous was the delivery of the American Patriot long-range air defense system. Two batteries of such equipment and a significant supply of missiles of various types were transferred. The possibility of shipping additional complexes cannot be ruled out.

Since last year, press publications and statements by officials have regularly mentioned the possibility of transferring other anti-aircraft systems suitable for use in site air defense. For example, hypothetical deliveries of HAWK air defense systems from the USA or other countries were discussed. For one reason or another, things have not come to fruition yet.

Levels of Defense

Anti-aircraft missile systems provided to Ukraine by foreign partners have a different composition, include different means and differ in their tactical and technical characteristics. Using air defense systems of different classes and types, Ukrainian formations could create a kind of layered air defense system with several zones and detection and interception lines. As can be judged from the available data, this is exactly what they tried to do - but without success.

One of the first NASAMS installations delivered to Ukraine. Photo Telegram / "Military informant"

The long-range interception system in such a system should be the American Patriot air defense system. The batteries of such a complex transferred to Ukraine include a towed multifunctional radar with AN/MPQ-65 type phased array. This product monitors a sector 90° wide in azimuth with elevation angles up to +83°. Detection range of large aerodynamic targets - up to 200 km, tactical aviation – no more than 120-130 km, ballistic missile warheads – 70 km. 125 targets are tracked simultaneously; maximum target speed – 2 km/s.

The United States is transferring MIM-104 PAC-2 GEM, MIM-104F PAC-3 and PAC-3 MSE anti-aircraft missiles to Ukraine. The GEM product has a range of 100 km when intercepting aerodynamic targets; ballistic - 20 km. The PAC-3 MSE features an increased interception altitude. The PAC-3 is intended only to combat ballistic targets at a distance of 20 km and altitudes of 20 km.

In the long-range echelon, the Patriots can be supplemented by the Italian-French SAMP/T complex. The transferred complex includes the Arabel airborne surveillance radar. The digital locator with phased array is close in maximum characteristics to the American AN/MPQ-65.

It was reported that Aster 30 type missile defense systems are being sent to Ukraine. In the basic modification, this product has a firing range of 120 km when launched at aerodynamic targets. The modernized version flies 150 km. The possibility of intercepting warheads of operational-tactical missiles has been declared.

Defeat of the Ukrainian S-300 system. Photo by the Russian Ministry of Defense

In the class of medium- and short-range air defense systems, two modifications of the German IRIS-T product can be presented at once. Both of its variants, SLS and SLM, are equipped with a CEAFAR radar with a detection range of at least 50-70 km. It is possible to pair with other stations or work with an external data source.

The IRIS-T SLS complex is equipped with a missile of the same name with a range of 12 km and a strike altitude of 20 km. The medium-range IRIS-T SLM variant should intercept aerodynamic targets from a distance of 40 km and at the same altitudes.

The most widespread foreign air defense system in Ukraine is now the Norwegian-American NASAMS, which belongs to short-range systems. The main modifications of this complex include the AN/MPQ-64F1 detection radar with a detection range of large objects of up to 120 km. In addition, the air defense system has an optical-electronic system for working in the near field. Work on external target designation is provided.

Ukrainian NASAMS use AIM-120 missiles, originally created for military aviation. Due to the need to launch from the ground, the launch range was reduced to 20 km, the destruction altitude was 16 km. The developers pointed to the possibility of integrating the AMRAAM-ER missile, which can fly 40 km. NASAMS is also capable of using AIM-9 products with some deterioration in performance compared to the AIM-120.

Radar of the IRIS-T complex in the lens of loitering ammunition, June 2023. Photo Telegram / BMPD

Opportunities and results

Using the received foreign systems and equipment, the Kiev regime could organize a layered air defense system to cover critical areas. Judging by the available information, he took similar measures and tried to protect the main administrative center in the form of Kyiv. At the same time, at a minimum, individual foreign air defense systems were sent directly to the combat zone to organize air defense of troops on the ground.

The results of several months of work of such an air defense facility, built on the basis of foreign technology, are well known. Predictably, the most widely publicized missile attack occurred in May, which destroyed one of the Patriot batteries in Kyiv. In addition, it was reported that other imported air defense systems were hit and destroyed.

According to our Ministry of Defense, Ukrainian air defense has already lost a large number of S-300 systems, incl. funds received from Slovakia. At least one of the IRIS-T SLM air defense systems was hit. The destruction of several NASAMS systems was reported. The only SAMP/T complex and a few IRIS-T SLS products are still in operation, but their prospects are clear and predictable.

There are several reasons for this result. First of all, this is a very limited amount of supplied equipment and other equipment. Because of it, the Kiev regime was able to organize only focal air defense, whereas in the current situation, continuous radar coverage and large fire zones are needed. Even information support from NATO does not help in the formation of such a defense.

Patriot air defense system in Kyiv - the crew fires off ammunition in one gulp. Soon the complex will be hit by a Russian missile. Photo Telegram/Bmpd

The quantity problem was exacerbated by technical limitations. Ukraine was given mainly short- and medium-range systems. Deliveries of long-range systems were limited to just a few batteries, and we are talking about Patriot and SAMP/T products with an interception range of no more than 100-150 km.

An unpleasant surprise for the Ukrainian air defense was the fact that Russian aircraft, UAVs and missiles were ready to counter foreign air defense systems, including the newest ones. To break through and suppress such defenses, a variety of strike systems, means and tactics corresponding to the specific situation are used. Thus, the Kiev Patriot, as far as is known, was hit by a hypersonic Kinzhal missile. A few weeks ago, the IRIS-T complex was demonstrated to be damaged by the Lancet loitering munition. There are regular massive strikes using UAVs, which simply bypass dangerous areas.

Broken plans

Despite all possible assistance from foreign patrons, Ukrainian formations were unable to create full-fledged air defense in key areas. The Russian armed forces continue to strike at designated targets, incl. breaking through the remnants of enemy air defenses. In addition, whenever possible, our military attacks enemy anti-aircraft systems - radars, launchers, etc. The already low effectiveness of Ukrainian air defense is further reduced.

The prospects for the development of such a situation are quite clear. Third countries will continue to supply Ukraine with certain complexes and ammunition for them, but it will not be possible to solve the main problems with their help. Possible volumes of supplies do not meet the needs of the Kyiv regime, and Russia shows a clear advantage in weapons and equipment, which can no longer be reduced at the current stage.

Comments

[alexoff]

The fight against the Ukrainian air defense system is not systematic. Did you demonstratively work like a patriot in the spring, and then decided not to bother? And not only air defense. And after the attacks on Crimea, it seems they decided not to destroy the ports; the geraniums have not flown for two days. Last year in the summer they attacked the railway substations a little, but somehow victory did not come immediately and they decided not to attack them again. They hit the bridge in Zatoka a little, but the front did not collapse; they decided not to hit the bridges anymore. They hit the transformers and stopped. And why does this throwing strategy fail?

[Amateur]

And why does this throwing strategy fail?

Because “We were asked”...

[Negro]

Quote: Amateur

Because “We were asked”...

Well, or I couldn’t.

[bear cub]

Indeed, these actions are not visible, nor the consequences, nor any larger plan. I saw consistency only in attacks on infrastructure that suddenly stopped. What is this connected with? It's hard to understand.

[nickname7]

Indeed, these actions are not visible, nor the consequences

What makes you think there are no consequences? The calibration did not give victory, but it did have consequences, control points were destroyed with some NATO generals, accidents happened - someone fell from a cliff, someone drowned, large scalades were also destroyed, all this, although did not lead to victory, but knocked down the effectiveness of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and saved the lives of Russian soldiers.
To win, as they wrote in the next article, it is necessary to use the experience of “desert storm” by raiding the Saloreikh with at least 500 aircraft that are not there.

[Negro]

Quote: nickname7

It did have consequences, control points were destroyed, some NATO generals had accidents, someone fell off a cliff, someone drowned

How interesting.

Did the valiant military officers tell you this, or did Konashenkov immediately?

[Bingo]

Firstly, the West has a global problem with air defense in general - after the collapse of the USSR there were no plans to defend itself, and air defense is in a blatant rut. Only the lazy ones didn’t write about the Patriots’ leakiness, about the near zone. Yes, there is no near zone there!

The most widespread foreign air defense system in Ukraine is now the Norwegian-American NASAMS, which belongs to short-range systems. The main modifications of such a complex include the AN/MPQ-64F1 detection radar

It does not launch upward, like Thor, but into a sector, the Sentinel radar has an elevation angle of 55 degrees, it stands on the ground, that is, it also goes around the terrain of the missile defense system and some kind of ballistics. falling on his head - they will simply stick into the target so that the air defense will not see them.
There is no air defense there at all. And then they also hit fundamentally new targets like Geraniums, against which our air defense, the best in the world, would have worked exactly crookedly

[Mikhail Maslov]

Let’s say you’re right. Then why does our aviation operate only along the front line, not even the “near rear” is considered? It’s the same as “Javelins” are rubbish, only tanks operate from closed positions. Another question is, what or whose air defense can cope with massive and multi-level strikes? All the parameters perfectly written on paper in practice work completely differently. This applies to both our air defense and Western ones. Do not rush to draw conclusions, the volumes of air defense supplied by the Armed Forces of Ukraine are low, not counting MANPADS, and if they set a goal to protect the desired area, and not spread it piece by piece, be sure will do and close the area and not only with the help of air defense

[Vita vko]

Quote: Mikhail Maslov

why does our aviation operate only at the front line, even the “near rear” is not considered

The Ukrainian Armed Forces, in conditions of Russia's air superiority, are using Vietnamese ambush tactics. It's quite an unpleasant thing. The ambush tactics of the air defense cannot save the defense object, but it is quite capable of inflicting unacceptable losses.

[Escariot]

Quote: Vita VKO

Quote: Mikhail Maslov

why does our aviation operate only at the front line, even the “near rear” is not considered

The Ukrainian Armed Forces, in conditions of Russia's air superiority, are using Vietnamese ambush tactics. It's quite an unpleasant thing. The ambush tactics of the air defense cannot save the defense object, but it is quite capable of inflicting unacceptable losses.

Well, first of all, what do you mean by Western tactics? The fact that air defense batteries do not turn on their radar 24/7? Well, it's natural. However, the enemy still takes information about the location of the planes from somewhere in order to try to shoot them down as they retreat. This means that there is some kind of radar coverage all the time, and it gives the approximate search direction for the radar of the air defense battery. And these are clearly not AWACS, because they physically do not reach such a distance. Those. Ukraine still has long-range detection radars, and they are linked into a system with air defense batteries.
Secondly, “ambush tactics” save heaps of objects. Of course, some of the blows pass, but this is not even close to bombarding everything and everyone with cast iron bombs. Accordingly, most of the objects in the rear are in relative safety.
Thirdly, what difference does it make what air defense tactics are used? It seems that our tactics are not ambush, but strikes by enemy missile defense systems and drones occur regularly. Of course, not in the same volume as ours, but this is solely due to the general poverty and lack of material among the enemy Air Force.

[Bingo]

Quote from Escariot

The fact that air defense batteries do not turn on their radar 24/7? Well, it's natural.

Option tell me how air defense/missile defense CAN work without constant scanning of the area? There is only one option - the scan is done by those who cannot be reached, AWACS, with zones, yes. Maybe there’s also a long-range satellite or a satellite... Ninay, I’m not an air defense specialist, like they have now - theoretically - but maybe.
The battery turns on the reviewer rarely and accidentally, for some reason - don’t you think that there must be a reason, it’s not random? Otherwise this battery is BLIND
Did I make a mistake somewhere? Please indicate...

[Escariot]

Quote from Bingo

Quote from Escariot

The fact that air defense batteries do not turn on their radar 24/7? Well, it's natural.

Option tell me how air defense/missile defense CAN work without constant scanning of the area? There is only one option - the scan is done by those who cannot be reached, AWACS, with zones, yes. Maybe there’s also a long-range satellite or a satellite... Ninay, I’m not an air defense specialist, like they have now - theoretically - but maybe.
The battery turns on the reviewer rarely and accidentally, for some reason - don’t you think that there must be a reason, it’s not random? Otherwise this battery is BLIND
Did I make a mistake somewhere? Please indicate...

I’m also not an expert, but I’ll explain it as I understand it. The division usually contains a three-dimensional radar that provides information about the position of the aircraft in terms of distance, azimuth and altitude. Also, the battery may contain (or may be combined with the first radar) an antenna for controlling the missile, either by transmitting commands to it or using a reflected signal. These radars and antennas have a very powerful and narrow beam of radio radiation (similar to a long-range flashlight that shines into the dark). On an airplane, when irradiated, a light will immediately light up indicating that the airplane has been taken for escort.
However, in addition to these systems located in the battery itself, there are early warning systems (surveillance radars) with a two-coordinate all-round viewing station. This station provides only the approximate direction of the target and the target range without indicating the altitude. The readings from them are approximate, and aircraft warning systems about radio exposure are unlikely to work from such a weak signal. These enemy surveillance radars are constantly working and transmit the approximate coordinates of our aircraft directly to the division command post, which already knows where to look for the aircraft.
In this case, battery radars can replace or enhance the capabilities of surveillance radars, and surveillance radars may well be three-dimensional. In addition to this, there is a “friend or foe” interrogator, and to whom this or that radar is doctrinally subordinate is not at all clear to me personally, but you probably get the gist: surveillance radars in Ukraine work and regularly transmit to the batteries the approximate coordinates of our aircraft, and when the aircraft enter the affected area of ​​the air defense missile system battery, then it turns on its radar. At least this is how the situation looks from my sofa, maybe someone and air defense specialists will write a detailed article about Soviet air defense

[Alexey Lantukh]

Well, that's more or less it. I'd like to add something about the expression "hit the complex", for example, the S-300 or Patriot. That is, they launched a missile and it hit the complex? Oh, no. They could have hit the radar, the launcher, the command post, i.e. one of 5-7 devices and most likely the radar. And the radar was replaced and the complex was back in service. And if they hit the launcher, then there are several more in the division. For example, the Buk anti-aircraft missile division included: a 9S470 mobile command post, a 9S18 Kupol detection and target designation station, two anti-aircraft missile batteries with two 9A310 self-propelled firing units and one 9A39 launcher-loader.

[Negro]

Quote: Alexey Lantukh

e. one of 5-7 devices and most likely a radar

The only known video of the patriot’s “defeat” shows an explosion near the launch pad. That is, at best, it is destroyed. If it stood correctly, that is, in an embankment, it could simply be cut by fragments, and not even a car, but a TPK - something like this was stated by the Ukrainians and Americans.

[Negro]

Quote: Vita VKO

The Ukrainian Armed Forces, in conditions of Russian air superiority, uses Vietnam ambush tactics

Since the Russian Aerospace Forces is very different from the US Air Force (and the US Air Force is not the same as it was just now), there is no need for “ambush tactics”. And the possibilities of such tactics are not the same: planes practically do not fly over Ukraine.

[alexoff]

Our aviation does not work behind the ribbon after departing from Kyiv. For a month they weren’t afraid of air defense, helicopters hit the beech tree directly with direct fire, and then all of a sudden - and the situation changed radically, suddenly air defense became everywhere, it became dangerous to fly, so they stopped flying. This, of course, is not just another agreement, because along the entire front line and the Belarusian border, under every bush there is a dry grass with a stinger, every 10 km there is a beech tree, and behind every third beech there is a S300. And the fact that missiles and geraniums reach Zaporozhye, Sumy, Chernigov and Kharkov without encountering any air defense opposition is such a cunning plan. And the million-dollar question is - if the enemy’s air defenses are disabled, then how do ours know that there is air defense there at all? Maybe everything was taken from there to the front a long time ago and in fact you can safely send the Tu22 to bomb Kharkov with cast iron?

[bk0010]

Quote from Bingo

Firstly, the West has a global problem with air defense in general - after the collapse of the USSR there were no plans to defend itself, and air defense is in a blatant rut.

NATO air defense was entrusted to aviation, air defense systems - just in case. We must not forget that they have the most aircraft, therefore air defense tasks are a priority for everyone else, and not for them.

[Negro]

Quote from Bingo

Firstly, the West has a global problem with air defense in general - after the collapse of the USSR there were no plans to defend itself, and air defense is in the open

The generalized West, neither now nor previously, has had any problem with air defense/missile defense. Well, only the generalized West has naval and strategic air defense/missile defense.

Quote from Bingo

Only the lazy didn’t write about the Patriots’ leakiness, about the near zone

Writing is not moving bags.

Quote from Bingo

Yes, there is no near zone there!

Of course not. This complex does not exist for the near zone.

Quote from Bingo

that is, both the CD that goes around the relief and some kind of ballistics. falling on his head - they will simply stick into the target so that the air defense will not see them.

Ballistics is not for NASAMS, but there are no questions about the Kyrgyz Republic, you don’t need a lot of intelligence here.

[1 z1]

Ukraine was unable to fully restore its air defense and protect itself from attacks even on key military targets.

Well, yes, the old Kanashenko song, in a new way. That is, there is no air defense in Ukraine, but our aviation cannot operate on these "key objects" either.

[Barmaglot_07]

Quote: 1z1

Well, yes, the old Kanashenko song, in a new way. That is, there is no air defense in Ukraine, but our aviation cannot operate on these "key objects" either.

Slander and discredit! Not “can’t”, but “doesn’t want”, because of an excess of humanism!

[alexoff]

Where does this “cannot” come from? We can similarly say that Russia cannot hit the Kremenchug oil refinery - impenetrable air defense, really. If no one is flying and air defense systems are turned off, then how can you find out that they are even there?

[Bodipancher]

Everyone is right, air defense is focal, but it exists and works from an ambush, so they don’t risk planes unnecessarily.

[Escariot]

Quote: Bodypuncher

Everyone is right, air defense is focal, but it exists and works from an ambush, so they don’t risk planes unnecessarily.

Then this is a failure of intelligence and the organizational structure of the armed forces. An airplane is, of course, very expensive, and pilots are worth their weight in gold, but this is just a tool. One timely sortie (to an enemy command post or to some bridge along which reinforcements are passing to it) can change the course of a ground battle. And even if a plane or even several are lost, it is much better than not attacking at all.
As an operational example, recall the Battle of Reimagen. The Americans then captured the Ludendhoff Bridge and began transporting troops to the right bank of the Rhine. Goering, realizing its significance, immediately organized the bombing of the bridge, fully aware of the advantage of Allied aviation and the fact that the Americans would pull all the air defense of their First Army to the bridge. The bridge was nevertheless filled up, literally strewing the city with the wreckage of Luftwaffe planes, although it was already too late, because the Americans were able to restore the pontoons, but that’s a completely different story. A strategic example is Operation Grand Flogging, when the British carried out a raid against dams on tributaries of the Rhine. They understood very well that not everyone would return from the mission, but the damage from the bombing was such that it outweighed the cost of the planes and crews killed in battle by an order of magnitude.
If we “have no need” for such operations, then this is very, very bad.

[Negro]

Quote from Escariot

If we “have no need” for such operations, then this is very, very bad.

And when the pilots simply refuse to fly, or better yet, take off and relieve the load on Voronezh, then what?

[Escariot]

Quote: Negro

Quote from Escariot

If we “have no need” for such operations, then this is very, very bad.

And when the pilots simply refuse to fly, or better yet, take off and relieve the load on Voronezh, then what?

The Germans flew to bomb Reimagen, although they knew that they were expecting dozens of air defense fighters and a sea of ​​fire from anti-aircraft guns. The Japanese generally flew in one direction, but no one deployed their Oka to Tokyo.
Well, if you think that our pilots can fly to bomb Voronezh without a corresponding order from the commander, then it’s time to wind down the SVO.

[Negro]

Quote from Escariot

The Germans flew to bomb Reimagen, although they knew that they were expecting dozens of air defense fighters and a sea of ​​fire from anti-aircraft guns. The Japanese generally flew in one direction, but no one deployed their Oka to Tokyo.

Your role models are interesting. Characteristic.

However, there is an opinion that the country's leadership is adequate in this regard. Ukraine's industry is invulnerable (because it is not located in Ukraine), the country's leadership is immortal (because any political leadership will do the same thing, plus or minus), so burning down aviation in senseless raids is not productive. Ukraine can receive aviation on any day in any quantity, but Russia does not have such an option.

Well, as I already said, there are personnel issues, so to speak. If you suddenly find a Hero of Russia, the former commander of the Aerospace Forces, Colonel General Surovikin, ask him what and how. By the way, remember the other “heroes of the Northern Military District” in command positions, and find out how much career success the Northern Military District brought them.

Quote from Escariot

our pilots can fly to bomb Voronezh without a corresponding order from the commander, then it’s time to wind down the SVO.

You will not believe...

[max702]

Quote: Negro

Well, as I already said, there are personnel issues, so to speak. If you suddenly find a Hero of Russia, former commander of the Aerospace Forces, Colonel General Surovikin - p

HE is in Algeria as part of the delegation of the Russian Ministry of Defense... And we are taking care of the planes and pilots because it was said "NATO borders 1997..." There is a lot of work ahead.

[alexoff]

It seems that our pilots are the most cowardly today, for everyone else it means they can be hit by bullets and shells every day for a year and a half, but if there is a risk for them, then that’s it - we start fighting with our own people, it’s better and safer! They’re not SOF working behind the ribbon, they’re not tank crews, they’re all potential defectors according to your words

[Negro]

Quote from alexoff

It seems our pilots are the most cowardly these days, for everyone else it means they can be hit by bullets and shells every day for a year and a half

I agree with you. I also offered pilots to the infantry and to Artyomovsk, or wherever heroes are needed there now. Frankly speaking, I don’t like pilots.

But the country’s leadership and the Armed Forces still have a different opinion.

[alexoff]

Well, accordingly, the infantry from near Artemovsk should quickly be trained as pilots, and those who say that they won’t fly for a ribbon because it’s dangerous - into the infantry

[Tim666]

You can guess the author quite accurately from the title))) Little, old, useless, failure... But aviation doesn’t risk bombing with cast iron)))

[perm18]

At the moment we can’t do anything with our aviation, we can’t just bomb. And here the author writes that everything is bad for the Ukrainians. We can’t even work in the near zone from heights, not to mention the cities of Ukraine.

[cmax]

In my opinion, this is a crazy article! It doesn't reflect the situation at all. Our aircraft can't fly further than LBS, but everything is fine. Their air defense is increasingly being filled with various air defense systems. It's not for nothing that Madame Berbek suggested that Europe chip in for an "umbrella" for the country. Add NATO reconnaissance aircraft, satellites, and they have full information about the launches of our missiles and Geraniums. If the Defense Ministry announced the real number of Geraniums that reached their targets, you would be unpleasantly surprised. A Polish source writes that the day before yesterday, all Geraniums were shot down during the raid. Although it is possible that these were false targets to determine the strength of the air defense. There have been no raids on ports for the last few days. The Geraniums are very ineffective, and there are apparently not enough missiles.
And subsonic missiles are increasingly becoming victims of air defense. This is the schedule so far. I hope something will change for the better for us. Although the general situation (especially the attacks on Crimea and Sevastopol) does not cause optimism, to say the least.

[Yaroslav Tekkel]

Quote: cmax

For the last few days there have been no raids on the ports.

Quote: cmax

attacks on Crimea, Sevastopol

Is there some connection here? Sunak and Macron were not as kind as Grandpa Joe.

[alexoff]

Do you even count how many air defense systems were handed over to them? Do you think two batteries of patriots and three irises cover the almost disappeared two hundred S300s and a hundred beeches?

[Toucan]

I'm sure if Bongo had written an article on this topic, it would have been much more interesting. But Ryabov's is incompetent and very dull.

[bear cub]

Full agreement. I laughed several times while reading this article. Reality checks the theses from the article, unfortunately negatively.

[alaarsen]

Missiles with a range of 12 km and a height of 20 km - how is that? If a rocket can, roughly speaking, fly up to 20 km, then why is its range almost 2 times less..

[Escariot]

Quote: alaarsen

Missiles with a range of 12 km and a height of 20 km - how is that? If a rocket can, roughly speaking, fly up to 20 km, then why is its range almost 2 times less..

Well, this is the range at maximum altitude. If the target is lower, then the rocket will fly a little further.

[Negro]

Quote: alaarsen

12 km and 20 km altitude - how is that?

These are the characteristics of the same Iris in the air-to-air version.

[bear cub]

I read the first sentences and already know who the author is. Western systems are useless, expensive and implode on their own as a result of failure. Ukraine has already lost twice as many aircraft as it had before the war, and our aircraft dominate the battlefield with complete impunity. I read quite a few articles about the effectiveness of Western technology and in each of them the conclusions were the same. Western anti-aircraft systems are doing very well, and there is only one problem, the need to shoot down simple Geranium targets with expensive missiles.

[Barmaglot_07]

Quote: Little Bear

Ukraine has already lost twice as many aircraft as it had before the war

Your lies! Not twice, but five!

[Bolt cutter]

the need to shoot down Geranium's simple targets with expensive missiles.

We need conveyor production of primitive blank targets. Cheap, made from non-aviation materials and a primitive autopilot from a smartphone.

[Negro]

Quote: Little Bear

the need to shoot down Geranium's simple targets with expensive missiles.

Therefore, they are trying to bring in more barrel artillery. Plus, simplified air defense systems should go, converted NURSs

[2sila]

A good article and respect to the author. Everything is to the point, without political and other snot. The most difficult task has arisen to overcome such a saturated air defense. Probably the first time in military history. At the moment, the air defense of Ukraine will give odds to any army in the world both in experience and in quality and quantity, well, probably except ours), although here too there is something to learn from them. And therefore, overcoming this air defense is a huge success and labor-intensive work. The task is difficult. Everything changes instantly and all the plans that you made for "centuries" or as users here worry about ancient, inflexible "systems" developed 50 years ago do not work! The measures to counter the air defense of the UA described in the article are the result of responding to new inputs that are constantly coming in, and it is the rapid response to these inputs, mobility, flexibility of influence that is the key to success.

[Negro]

Quote: 2sila

Good article and respect to the author. Everything is to the point, without political or other snot

Does Ryabov have a second account?

Quote: 2sila

At this moment, Ukrainian air defense will give odds to any army in the world

Of course not. Well, maybe we have experience, but the equipment, even for Africa, is rather weak.

A year and a half ago, various fighters against Nazism dreamed that the ammunition and resource of the Soviet Ukrainian air defense would run out any day now (and not without reason, the air defense was really on its last legs) and it would be possible to use aviation. Literally a dozen Western systems were enough to close this issue forever. Even I expected that much more effort would be required from the allies.

[Barmaglot_07]

Quote: Negro

Well, maybe we have experience, but the equipment, even for Africa, is rather weak.

Uh ...

Quote: Negro

Literally a dozen Western systems were enough to close this issue forever. Even I expected that much more effort would be required from the allies.

And what does this then say about the decades of construction of the Russian Aerospace Forces, if the materiel, which is rather weak for Africa, is enough to exclude them from the game?

[Negro]

Quote from: Barmaglot_07

what does this say then about the decades of construction of the Russian Aerospace Forces,

Nothing new. Soviet/Russian aviation has always been the second most useless branch of the military after the navy. In certain periods, claiming first place, depending on where a lot of money was poured into.

[Sandy_2]

Well, the USSR was not going to attack anyone, hence the reliance on powerful air defense and ground forces. Aviation is rather an addition to them. It was Putin who for some reason decided that he was smarter than the military leaders who went through the Second World War and who laid down the Soviet defense doctrine, and decided to play soldier. The result is there for everyone to see. That army “capable of solving any problems,” which he supposedly spent 20 years building, ended in six months and required the mobilization of civilians, with the purchase of modern weapons from Iran, North Korea, etc.

[Negro]

Quote: Sandy_2

Well, the USSR was not going to attack anyone

That is, Soviet military thought never reached the doctrine of limited war. Either the whole world is in ruins, or nothing. You can feel it.

The situation is somewhat reminiscent of the Korean War: there MacArthur also proposed to uncover Kuzku’s mother. Not because he was such a drug addict (although he was). But during the period of nuclear euphoria of the late 40s, the KNS simply did not develop any war scenarios other than massing nukes.

[2sila]

After the first point, there was no need to continue with Ryabov’s second ak. Cheaper and that was enough. Either speak to the point, or like you.

[2sila]

P.S. For the slow-witted, just so as not to read beyond the point. Just name who can give the Ukrainian Air Defense a run for its money in terms of "experience, quantity and quality." No empty words or other cheap stuff. Who can give a run for their money even off the top of my head with Wikipedia: about 220 S-300 launchers, 72 Buk, about 200 of all sorts of stuff like Osa, Strela, Thor, Stormers, etc., 24 Nasams, 16 Patriots, 6 Hawks, 3 Irises. Didn't forget anything? I've already read the nonsense about Africa and 10 foreign systems that changed the world). Although why even before all of them, until they brought in AS number 1, Ukrainian Air Defense was called Buk, who knows. A few words about quality, for those who don't understand, everything is too simple. This includes developed Radiotechnical forces and means, developed radar field and developed electronic warfare means. We just need to name the country that will cover these three criteria.

[Negro]

You seem to be worried.

Air defense, in the first approximation, must solve exactly one task. To prevent the enemy Air Force from operating in its space. Ukrainian air defense performed this task last year and is still performing it, despite the undeniable problems with the Soviet equipment. Cool stories from the author

Third countries will continue to supply Ukraine with certain complexes and ammunition for them, but it will not be possible to solve the main problems with their help. Possible volumes of supplies do not meet the needs of the Kyiv regime, and Russia shows a clear advantage in weapons and equipment, which can no longer be reduced at the current stage.

absolutely meaningless.

[2sila]

You are appealing to me not in essence, with some kind of incomprehensible, unsubstantial subjectivity. If it’s not the same, then you’re worried about me. Without these unprofessional lyrics you can’t cope at all? Why is this?
Although in essence it’s somehow not the same. Some kind of confusion. It’s good that we’ve already sorted out “experience, quantity, quality,” etc.
I don't see anything senseless or cold in your quotation of the author. Just a statement of the situation. All of Europe is looking for additional air defense systems for Ukraine, and the latter constantly demands additional supplies of BC for foreign air defense, which is exactly what the author notes. They definitely don't have enough and there is no supply system. They collect what they were given. Ukraine has one of the strongest air defense and missile defense systems at the moment, but even before any foreign assistance it was quite capable of coping with the threat of our Aerospace Forces, but IMHO it is not entirely correct to separate air defense and missile defense here. Again, the Aerospace Forces strategists fire missiles normally or, for example, their air defense and missile defense cannot prevent the use of UMPK against them at all. This is also the work of the Aerospace Forces. Yes, the specifics have changed and in such a war with developed air defense and missile defense systems, air planes will have to look for new methods and techniques without going there, look for different holes in the defense, which is what we are seeing. I will probably say something seditious, but here in the classic form of using the Air Force, anyone will get it from the same Ukraine or from us. Which we again see in the pale use of Ukraine's Air Force on LBS. They are also looking for holes and new techniques. For example, shooting down civilian and paramilitary UAVs. Or accepting our barely crawling Gerani. Well, as for their calibration, the arrival of all sorts of X's, etc., there is no point in denying it. Yes, it is difficult for us to check their effectiveness, but at least it is blazing legally.

[runway-1]

Quote: Little Bear

I read the first sentences and already know who the author is. Western systems are useless, expensive and implode on their own as a result of failure. Ukraine has already lost twice as many aircraft as it had before the war, and our aircraft dominate the battlefield with complete impunity. I read quite a few articles about the effectiveness of Western technology and in each of them the conclusions were the same. Western anti-aircraft systems are doing very well, and there is only one problem, the need to shoot down simple Geranium targets with expensive missiles.

That's right, only Cheetahs, for example, with a low consumption of shells, even shoot down Geraniums...

[Repellent]

Quote: WFP-1

Cheetahs, for example, with a low consumption of shells, even shoot down Geraniums...

Any confirmation?

[exo]

Life shows the complete opposite of what is written in the article. But the defeat of our air defense systems by Ukrainian strike weapons is alarming. In the same row there is a damaged landing craft and a submarine in the dock. At least in the information field, their blows look more significant.

[Radical]

Kirill, why twist the tail of an ox? The Russian Aerospace Forces not only can't, they are afraid to enter the entire territory of Ukraine, because they are afraid of the air defense, which is not suppressed, and that's not even the point. The air defense at different times had and, accordingly, different capabilities, but I want to note one important thought, in my opinion, which will seem pompous and declarative to someone, nevertheless, our pilots during the Great Patriotic War broke through the fascist air defense over their cities, successfully bombed, worked. Not all of them returned, but they worked, fought. There is no talk at all about attack aircraft - they worked "over the heads", as my namesake and fellow countryman, twice Hero of the Soviet Union, attack pilot, once said. And they worked to the entire depth of enemy territory, as far as the refueling allowed.
What's here? Attack from a pitching position, “leaky” fields, in craters... and most likely zero point one percent of hits on the objects of use. And we’ll also bazaar, we can kind of repeat it... . If they could... but what can I say... .

[gsev]

Quote: Radikal

nevertheless, during the Second World War, our pilots broke through fascist air defense over their cities, successfully bombed, practiced

From about mid-1943, the Red Army Air Force and the ADD tried to strike close to the front line, avoiding flying deep behind the front line. At least that’s what Golovanov claimed in his memoirs, “Long-Range Bomber.” Already, raids on German airfields were catastrophically costly for Soviet aviation. The Luftwaffe neutralized the actions of Allied aviation on the Western Front until the end of 1942 with extremely insignificant forces.

[Negro]

Quote: gsev

extremely insignificant forces.

The preponderance of the Eastern Front over the rest in terms of Luftwaffe forces was noticeable only during Barbarossa. In 42 it evened out and by the end of the year it was 50/50 if I remember correctly. After 42 the West, including the Reich Air Defense, was always bigger and much bigger.

But yes, long-range strategic aviation was an extremely complex, extremely expensive and questionable undertaking in terms of its benefits.

[Sandy_2]

Do you compare the cost, quantity, ease of production and repair of then and current aircraft? Now there are a couple of air defense “breakthroughs” to Kyiv and that’s it, the Aerospace Forces have nothing to fly for a couple of years....

[Repellent]

Quote: Sandy_2

Do you compare the cost, quantity, ease of production and repair of then and current aircraft?

No, but why should they? They’re here purely for the thrill, they live for the joy of it all. And they don’t need to think

[Sandy_2]

The author is burning. The Nazis' air defense doesn't work... Our aviation flies over Kiev, Lev, Kheroson like at the beginning of the Northern Military District? No. So the air defense is working. But shooting down drones and missiles is more like missile defense. We are not capable of completely knocking this down. The Nazis have already gouged out 2 airfields for us. I’m not talking about constant flights to Moscow. It’s good that missile defense has been deployed around the capital since Soviet times. They shoot down.