Perhaps the most important lesson of the SVO

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Perhaps the most important lesson of the SVO

The SVO has been going on for more than a year and a half. And it is not at all surprising that more and more analytical articles devoted to its lessons are appearing in print. But before we start...

Important Interlude


I would like to especially note: everything that I say below does not in any way affect our valiant Aerospace Forces pilots, who carry out combat missions in the Northern Military District zone with honor and at the risk of their lives. And, of course, officers whose duty is to support and directly control the combat activities of the Aerospace Forces.

The questions that I raise in this article should be addressed to much higher authorities and personalities: those who determined the appearance of the modern aerospace forces of the Russian Federation and formed state weapons programs in accordance with this appearance.

Understanding combat experience


Combat experience is obviously invaluable. But any new knowledge is fully useful only when it is correctly generalized and interpreted. Otherwise, the lessons taught by life will not be fully learned, which will only lead us to new mistakes.

Today, both on VO and in other publications, it is easy to find a lot of analytical materials devoted to the experience of the SVO. Pre-war views on the role and tactics of using both relatively old types of weapons, such as Tanks and artillery, as well as the latest ones, like the Lancet attack UAVs. And it’s impossible to count how many opinions are expressed in comments to such articles.

Unfortunately, many analysts and commentators make one very significant mistake: they view the military operations of the Russian Armed Forces against the Ukrainian Armed Forces as a given, a model of modern war and a prototype of future military conflicts.

But is it?

A bit of history


For a long time, one of the most effective means of achieving victory in war is maneuver. This was the case, for example, during the Napoleonic Wars. There is a known case when a certain courtier undertook to praise the French emperor in his presence for his ability to defeat a many times superior enemy.

However, Napoleon stated that he never did such a thing, and that his victories were always built on numerical superiority: if the enemy army was superior in strength to the French, then Napoleon either beat the enemy piecemeal, or achieved local superiority in key points of the position, and won at the expense of this.

Suvorov also won by maneuver. He appeared where he was not expected, and could easily attack superior enemy forces, relying on surprise and onslaught, which did not leave the enemy time to realize his numerical advantage. The First World War was conceived and started by the parties as a war of maneuver, but turned into a positional hell. But what happened next?

The victorious French made the experience of war absolute and prepared their army specifically for positional warfare and defense. They cooked well and seriously, investing in the construction of the Maginot Line. The losing Germans, on the contrary, looked for a way out of the positional deadlock - and found it. The result of the collision of two concepts is well known: the German bet on maneuver won, the united Anglo-French army was completely defeated and lost its combat effectiveness within a month.

The German blitzkrieg was based on maneuver. Create numerical superiority in the breakthrough areas (there was no need to have it along the entire front), introduce mechanized formations into the breakthrough, encircle the enemy, isolating him from supply and reinforcement routes, and then force him to surrender, or destroy him in fruitless attempts to break out rings are the alpha and omega of martial art of the second half of the XNUMXth century.

But in the Northern Military District we don’t see anything like that. Vice versa! Maneuver warfare has given way to positional warfare, and our special operation is painfully reminiscent of history First World War. Here is the initial attempt to wage a war of maneuver: a strike by the Russian Armed Forces, during which over 20% of the area of ​​Ukraine came under our control, but failed to defeat the main forces of the Ukrainian Armed Forces. Here is the subsequent transition to strategic defense. Here are the desperate attempts of the Ukrainian Armed Forces to break into this defense, which resulted in huge losses with minimal progress.

Does this mean that maneuver warfare has become obsolete? Or was the transition to positional warfare the result of mistakes and miscalculations during the construction of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation? And if so, which ones exactly?

SVO and Desert Storm


If we recall the most recent and comparable military conflict, Desert Storm inevitably comes to mind, during which a coalition of multinational forces (MNF) defeated the Iraqi armed forces. Many parallels can be drawn here.



Firstly, the troops of Saddam Hussein who opposed the MNF had combat experience gained in the Iran-Iraq conflict, which lasted for many years, sometimes became very “hot” but could not give the parties the skills of modern warfare due to the well-known archaism of the armed forces, like Iraq, as well as Iran. The Ukrainian Armed Forces gained similar experience during the fighting in the LPR and DPR.

Secondly, the MNF had quantitative and qualitative superiority in the air. The Russian Aerospace Forces, of course, are much more modest in number than the almost 2 MNF aircraft that took part in Desert Storm, but, undoubtedly, more numerous and newer than the Ukrainian Air Force, despite the fact that Russian pilots are better trained.

Thirdly, Iraq had a highly developed, but to a certain extent outdated air defense system, based on the S-75 and S-125 air defense systems, which in 1990 were clearly no longer at the forefront of technological progress. The same can be said about Ukraine: by 2022, even its newest air defense systems were complexes produced back in Soviet times. While the same S-300 in the Russian Federation was constantly being modernized, there was no money for this in the “Independence”.

And, of course, we should not forget that the RF Armed Forces, starting from 2010, received much more funding, and (at least theoretically) should have been far superior in equipment to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

In general, many parallels can be drawn between NWO and Desert Storm. But “Desert Storm” ended with a convincing victory for the MNF less than a month and a half from its start, and the Russian Armed Forces, after a year and a half of hostilities, are on the strategic defense. Why?

Disarming strike


Seventeenth January 1991 aviation The MNF, with up to 600 combat aircraft, launched a massive attack on the territory of Kuwait and Iraq.


The US Air Force and its allies deployed their full range of capabilities without missing a beat. Where it was justified, helicopters that “sneaked up” at low altitude were used to suppress air defense. The positions of Iraqi air defense systems and radar stations were further reconnaissance by specially formed aviation demonstration groups, which used TALD decoys to simulate missile launches. This, naturally, forced the Iraqi crews to turn on the radar and fight, completely unmasking themselves.

But the Iraqi air defense radars were suppressed by electronic warfare (EW) aircraft, which caused massive interference and used a mass of anti-radar missiles, and the air defense missile systems positions were destroyed by high-precision weapons. The Americans also used Tomahawk cruise missiles, but in relatively small quantities. What is important is that their use was coordinated in time with the actions of the MNF strike aircraft.

The result is that the main Iraqi air defense forces were destroyed during the first strike. First! Undoubtedly, Iraq had a certain number of operational air defense systems until the very end of hostilities; they fought and even shot down MNF aircraft. Iraq's air defense lost, of course, not completely, but still miserably: the Iraqis were unable to protect the ground armed forces and infrastructure from systematic destruction from the air.

Alas, the Russian Aerospace Forces were not only able to destroy, but even seriously failed to scratch the Ukrainian air defense. And to this day they are forced to avoid airspace over the territory controlled by the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

Why?

Question one - intelligence and support


The victory of the MNF air forces over the Iraqi air defense was predetermined long before the start of hostilities. Immediately after Iraq captured Kuwait, the Americans deployed a powerful group of reconnaissance aircraft to the borders of Iraq, which included TR-1, U-2, RC-135 and, of course, the ubiquitous E-3 flying radars. Following them, RF-4C tactical reconnaissance aircraft flew to Saudi Arabia.

And then round-the-clock reconnaissance of the territory of Iraq and Kuwait was organized using all radio equipment available to the Americans and, of course, the US and NATO satellite constellation. During the “research” that lasted almost six months (August 1990 – January 1991), the MNF was able to obtain a fairly clear picture of the deployment of Iraqi armed forces in the conflict zone and, importantly, revealed the location of the air defense.

At the same time, we can say with confidence that in fact the deployment of Iraqi troops was revealed much earlier, because three months before the start of hostilities, the MNF began regular exercises of ground and air forces, working out the details of the upcoming operation. The Americans were not lazy and built imitation Iraqi air defense formations in Kuwait and in Iraq itself at the training grounds at Nellis Air Base (Nevada). Most of the pilots of the US and multinational forces were then “drove” through these training grounds during the Desert Flag exercise.

That is, before the start of hostilities, the pilots of the multinational forces knew exactly who, where and how they would hit, and even practiced this in exercises.

Attention, question. What did the Russian Aerospace Forces do out of all this before the start of the Northern Military District?

In fact, there was more than enough time for preparation, taking into account the fact that it was the Russian side that determined the moment of the start of the SVO. There was also experience that suggested the importance of reconnaissance - the successes of the MNF in Desert Storm were studied and analyzed by our military, and the air operation in Syria hinted at a lot.

Alas, I do not have an answer to the question of how the Russian Aerospace Forces prepared for the SVO - for obvious reasons, the goals, timing and other details of such preparation are not disclosed to the general public. But it’s not difficult to guess - just remember the approximate (exact data is classified) composition of the Russian Aerospace Forces in terms of reconnaissance aviation.

While the Americans used dozens of specialized reconnaissance aircraft for reconnaissance of Iraq, ours could use... what? Four An-30s, the last of which was produced in 1980?


A dozen IL-20s that were produced between 1968 and 1976?

What can be revealed with these flying rarities of a long-gone socialist era?

Well, of course, we also have modern aircraft, such as the Tu-214R. There are either two or as many as four copies, with which even in theory it is impossible to provide round-the-clock reconnaissance...

Things are a little better with airspace control. After all, since 2011, seven A-50Us have been handed over to our troops, but were they all “on the wing” by February 2022? The number of aircraft in the Armed Forces is never equal to the number of aircraft ready to conduct combat operations.

The Americans brought in four dozen AWACS aircraft that were fully operational and modern at that time for Desert Storm. By the way, aircraft of this class with modern radars do a good job of reconnaissance not only of air targets, including low-flying ones, but also of ground targets.

It is quite obvious that ours would destroy the Ukrainian air defense if they had such an opportunity. At the same time, we have quite enough means of fire destruction of air defense systems, whose positions are known. Even without taking into account manned aircraft with their anti-radar missiles, I note that for the same S-300 of the first series, both “Caliber” and “Dagger” are extremely difficult targets.

And again, we can say that the S-300 is an extremely advanced complex for its time. But you need to understand that in principle there is no such thing as an absolute weapon, and we had a great advantage here - the design of the S-300 is well known to us. That is, we could easily adjust the equipment accordingly and select tactics for their destruction.

This suggests an assumption: one of the reasons why the Ukrainian air defense is alive and well is that the space and air reconnaissance means at the disposal of the Aerospace Forces are categorically insufficient to reveal the air defense positions of the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

Question two - covering air operations


It must be said that our opponents (the USA and NATO) have a very rich experience of air warfare in conditions of incomplete, if not completely suppressed, enemy air defense. In this case, the Americans formed special cover groups for attack aircraft. The tasks of such groups included demonstration actions in order to identify the positions of enemy air defense systems, electronic suppression and destruction of the latter. The emphasis was on electronic warfare systems, air target simulators and anti-radar missiles.

At the same time, the United States attached a special role to electronic warfare aircraft: more than 60 such aircraft were deployed in Iraq. We have... several "Choppers".


And, again, it’s not that the Russian Federation is not engaged in electronic warfare. But our emphasis was on hanging containers for multifunctional fighters and bombers. This is an important and necessary matter, but still, from the point of view of efficiency, specialization is usually preferable to universality.

It is unlikely that equal effectiveness can be expected from a pilot of a single-seat fighter, or a bomber crew equipped with electronic warfare containers, and a specialized aircraft designed for electronic warfare missions with a crew trained in all its nuances.

Of course, the capabilities of our and American electronic warfare are not disclosed in the wider press, and one can argue until one is hoarse about which is better, but there is a fact - our air forces avoid in every possible way entering the range of enemy air defense systems, while for the US Air Force and NATO this is Although not the norm, it is quite a working situation. Accordingly, it can be assumed that the tactics of demonstration groups, when specially designated aircraft draw fire on themselves, forcing the enemy’s radar to turn on, cannot be used by the Russian Aerospace Forces due to insufficient support from electronic warfare.

About the advantages that defeating enemy air defenses gives the Air Force


As soon as the Americans established themselves at medium and high altitudes above Iraq (low altitudes have always been and will be dangerous due to MZA and MANPADS, which cannot be completely suppressed), they received the following opportunities and advantages.

The first is the ability to effectively destroy enemy air forces in air battles. It must be said that it is extremely difficult to destroy even a significantly inferior air force on the ground: as is known, the enormous power of the MNF air force could not completely paralyze the work of the Iraqi airfield network.

But how much use did the Iraqis have from the surviving airfields and the fighters based on them? American AWACS aircraft spotted Iraqi planes shortly after they took off and intercepted them with enough force to destroy them. While the Iraqis (and later the Yugoslavs) were forced to fight “blindly”, relying only on the standard equipment of their fighters.

In other words, the confrontation in the air has turned into obviously futile battles of individuals against the system. And it often happened that lone individuals realized that they were under attack only at the moment the rocket that overtook them exploded... Yes, even in such conditions, the Iraqis had effective sorties and success in air combat, but we are talking about any kind of long-term and effective resistance I can’t walk in such conditions.

If the Russian Aerospace Forces had a similar level of control over Ukrainian airspace, then the activities of the Ukrainian Armed Forces would quickly be reduced to zero, and the transfer of all these Storm Shadows and similar long-range air-launched missiles would lose all meaning.

The second is the isolation of the combat area, which means a critical reduction in supplies and replenishment of enemy military groups. On the one hand, this is achieved by destroying infrastructure - railway junctions, bridges, etc. Theoretically, this can be achieved with the help of high-precision weapons - long-range cruise missiles, but practically no missiles can be used for this: it is necessary to use more powerful, but less expensive ammunition, like gliding bombs.

On the other hand, air supremacy provides a dramatic increase in awareness of the location and movement of enemy troops. Modern aerial reconnaissance systems, with their powerful optics, infravision, synthetic aperture radars, which allow obtaining a “picture” similar to aerial photographs, etc., etc., make it extremely difficult to camouflage the movement and deployment of military units. And, of course, the vehicles that try to supply them.

Accordingly, any maneuver, any transfer of reserves for the enemy will be accompanied by significant losses. Because the reaction time for attack aircraft and helicopters on duty in the air or ready for immediate departure is relatively short and allows them to deliver crushing blows to units on the march. All this was quite convincingly demonstrated by the MNF Air Force in Desert Storm.

Now Leopards, Bradleys and other enemy equipment are burning in the minefields of our defensive lines. But they attack, attacking - they fire and before they die, they take the lives of our soldiers. At the same time, if domestic air forces controlled the airspace of Ukraine, then a significant part of the foreign “zoo” simply would not reach the front line.

Third - destruction of personnel and equipment of enemy military groups
Again, this thesis was perfectly demonstrated by the Americans during Desert Storm, by “squandering” individual Iraqi divisions to 50-60% of their regular strength (to be fair, the author does not know the strength of these divisions at the start of hostilities). And even taking into account the double count (AFVs previously knocked out from the air could be knocked out again), we should be talking about hundreds of destroyed tanks, not counting other things.

This is not surprising - having mastered medium and high altitudes, the Americans established quite effective aerial reconnaissance and destroyed the enemy as they were identified. And the carpet bombing of strategic bombers, from which almost 30% of the total amount of aviation ammunition that fell on their heads was “dumped” on the Iraqis, was also a terrible blow to the morale of the Iraqi troops.

Yes, the desert is one thing, but Ukraine is something completely different. Yes, there is excellent experience of the Yugoslav army, which did not suffer significant losses during the NATO air operation. Camouflage is extremely important and extremely necessary. But you need to understand that the Yugoslav ground army lay low and did not conduct combat operations - it was preparing to repel an invasion that never happened. But combat presupposes maneuver, movement, and here the Yugoslavs would be vulnerable.

Even on defense. So, if our aviation dominated the air, then the same counter-battery fight, associated with the need to constantly change artillery positions, would become a terrible headache for the Ukrainian Armed Forces, and the losses of Ukrainian artillery would be much higher than the current ones.

And finally, fourthly, air supremacy ensures army maneuvers. As an example, consider the actions of the US 101st Air Assault Division.

The Americans wanted to cut off the strategic communication highway No. 8 As-Samakh - Basra, through which the Kuwaiti group of troops was supplied, but there was a small problem - the highway was located 200 km from the line of combat contact.

Since air supremacy unconditionally belonged to the MNF, the Americans, during the first day of the ground operation, quite calmly landed a helicopter assault force 80 km behind the front line: 2 soldiers with 000 combat vehicles and 50-mm artillery. And by the morning of the second day, 105 (!) trucks with ammunition and fuel, another 700 bayonets and 2 armored vehicles arrived at the landing location. It seemed like an extremely risky business, but the Americans clearly knew where the defense centers of the Iraqi troops were located. And they walked past them.

As a result of such actions, the 101st Airborne Division was able to deploy a forward operating base (called “Cobra”) behind enemy lines, on which both transport and combat helicopters could be based. And these helicopters immediately began to attack Highway No. 8, with the transport helicopters landing a small (three anti-tank company) assault force directly on this strategically important transport artery.

Further, under the cover of combat helicopters from the Cobra, the landing party was strengthened, first to a battalion, and then to a full-fledged airmobile brigade, which “held” the highway until the end of hostilities.

It is quite obvious that the Cobra base was not at all some kind of impregnable bastion, and could well have been demolished by an attack by something like a tank division. It’s just that the Iraqis were unable to concentrate and move this tank division to the attack lines under the conditions of the dominance of MNF aviation even in their rear.

Today there is a lot of speculation about the landing in Gostomel, but hardly anyone will refute the fact that ours managed to drag a large landing force behind enemy lines through the “eye of the needle” of unsuppressed air defense, and then also led a military column there.


What the Americans did in conditions of complete air supremacy, our soldiers did without this dominance. This operation alone completely refutes the myth of “untrained Russian pilots.”

But valor and preparation are not everything, you need the appropriate equipment. Without suppressing enemy air defense and not being able to operate freely in the Gostomel area, the Aerospace Forces were unable to properly support the forces deployed there and could not suppress the Ukrainian columns advancing to the attack lines with fire.

Aviation – a tank of the XNUMXst century?


At the beginning of the XNUMXth century, during the First World War, a paradoxical situation arose. The armies became truly massive, millions were drafted into them, which is why the enemy’s battle formations extended “from sea to sea” - flanks that could be bypassed ceased to exist. Accordingly, in order to withdraw your troops behind enemy lines, it was necessary to break through his battle formations, which could be done by attacking with infantry or cavalry.

But machine guns and rapid-fire artillery made manpower attacks a form of mass suicide. Attempts to turn the defensive formations of the defenders into a lunar landscape through prolonged exposure to artillery were also doomed to failure - the enemy, realizing that many days of artillery shelling was a prelude to an offensive, pulled up reserves, forming defensive formations behind the positions being shot.

In other words, technically, defense, as a type of combat, won a convincing victory over the offensive.

The way out of the positional impasse was a tank, which, when used correctly (that is, together with infantry, artillery, etc.), was capable of breaking through almost any enemy defense. However, 100 years later, at the beginning of the XNUMXst century, the development of anti-tank weapons led to the fact that the tank lost this ability. This does not mean that the tank is outdated, but only that its functions on the battlefield need correction.

In my opinion, today the role of “defense destroyer” belongs to aviation. At the same time, our pilots have sufficient qualifications and material resources to solve this problem. But - only if there is the necessary intelligence information and support, which all these F-15s, F-16s, etc. had. F/A-18 during Desert Storm. And we, apparently, have a “presence of absence”: because, having created first-class combat aircraft, we did not bother to create tools for obtaining this information and providing support.

Today there is a lot of talk about the fact that the Russian Aerospace Forces do not have sufficient numbers, that few multifunctional fighters, attack aircraft, etc. are being produced. I absolutely agree with this. But, in my opinion, even if we had twice as many Su-35s, Su-30s, Su-34s, etc., this would not radically affect the effectiveness of the Aerospace Forces in Ukraine. Because a systematic approach wins in war, the absence of which cannot be compensated for by outstanding performance characteristics of combat units.

If we liken the Air Force to a spear, then its shaft will be all these reconnaissance aircraft, AWACS, electronic warfare aircraft, tankers, and so on and so forth. Bombers, missile carriers and multirole fighters are the tip of the spear. It is he who will ultimately strike, it is he who will hit the enemy, but without a shaft, with just the tip, you won’t fight much.

Alas, one gets the impression that the Russian Aerospace Forces are pumping up as best they can with combat aircraft and helicopters, but there is no one to ensure their work, because there are practically no modern reconnaissance/AWACS/EW systems in service.

Conclusions


They're scary.

As a result of the fact that the Russian Aerospace Forces do not have the material to destroy the air defense of Ukraine, they cannot dominate the air over territories controlled by the Ukrainian Armed Forces, cannot isolate combat areas, cannot... Yes, almost nothing of what modern weapons should be capable of. air Force.

If they could, then the Ukrainian Armed Forces simply would not have succeeded in last year’s or even the current “counter-offensive”: the concentrating forces would have “explained” it long before it began.


And then there would be no point in organizing a meat grinder in Artemovsk, because the same and even significantly greater losses could be inflicted on the enemy by isolating the locations of the Ukrainian Armed Forces brigades from the air. There is no doubt that the time frame for carrying out the SVO would have been much shorter in this case, and the losses of the Russian Armed Forces, PMCs and volunteers would have been significantly less than the current ones.

Well, with what we have - the Russian army is forced to fight with the Ukrainian Armed Forces “wall to wall”, one systemic force against another. The Americans achieved rapid success during the ground phase of Operation Desert Storm precisely because by the time it began, the combat vehicle of the Iraqi ground forces had been irreparably broken by the efforts of the air force of the multinational force. US ground forces did not defeat the Iraqi army - they only finished it off.

Therefore, in my opinion, the most important lessons of the Northern Military District today are the weakness of the reconnaissance component of our aerospace forces - in space and air, as well as the lack of specialized electronic warfare aircraft. Due to this, the Russian Aerospace Forces today show barely 10–15% of their real potential, and combat operations have reached a positional impasse of the First World War era.
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  1. +48
    15 September 2023 04: 19
    The Russian army is forced to fight the Ukrainian Armed Forces “wall to wall,” one systemic force against another.
    The First World War in all its glory, more than 100 years later! Regression, however...
    1. +36
      15 September 2023 06: 28
      Personally, the SVO reminds me of the Finnish company of 1939-40, both in motives and in the conduct of hostilities, the main thing is that this does not result in a full-scale world war, when the enemy considered Russia to be an “ear of clay”, after all, they carefully watch them and cartoons You won't scare me. There are a lot of analogies, apparently world history is still developing in a spiral.
      1. +61
        15 September 2023 07: 05
        They have already counted. Otherwise they would not have acted so brazenly and demonstratively. Back in 2008 and 2014, our armed forces were feared, but now they are simply training to destroy them.
        1. +68
          15 September 2023 08: 22
          I’m very interested in what our brilliant leadership was counting on when they were preparing for this very operation? How did you want to win? Air defense is not suppressed, communications are not disrupted...
          After all, there must be some kind of plan! What did it consist of? Throw hats?
          What I see is complete carelessness, unrealistic planning. And the desire to pass off one’s helplessness as a great result.
          1. old
            +23
            15 September 2023 09: 05
            What did our brilliant leadership count on when they were preparing for this very operation? How did you want to win?

            Preparations for Desert Storm were carried out by career military personnel, graduates of military academies... who acted in close conjunction with intelligence and the navy... But we have super-effective managers, here.
            1. +2
              15 September 2023 10: 00
              No, we have special services, political instructors and desk workers for wars. The same as the USSR in the 1930s, the same friends in the inner circle.
              An effective manager is distinguished by the fact that he looks for a competent team. Desert Storm is an example of effective management.
              1. +8
                15 September 2023 14: 51
                Quote: Jonny_Su
                No, we have special services, political instructors and desk workers for wars. The same as the USSR in the 1930s, the same friends in the inner circle.
                An effective manager is distinguished by the fact that he looks for a competent team. Desert Storm is an example of effective management.

                So.
                Victory in the War is precisely the victory of effective management over ineffective management.
                Effective management calculates how much more profitable it is to use a WTO before cast iron, taking into account not so much the cost of the projectile, but the cost of destroying the target, taking into account the cost of preparation for production, production itself, storage, costs of security and maintenance, delivery to the battlefield, safety of storage, delivery, etc. d.
                And then one 100K dollar shell comes out many times cheaper than 100 hundred dollar ones, if you take into account all the costs.
                It’s the same with staffing, resource planning, composition of model ranges of equipment and military branches, network-centricity, interaction, interaction protocols and everything that is normal in a large corporation.
                So that the corporation works like a clock. All goods and materials and resources arrived on time and in the required quantities so that the finished products were in demand and sold in full.
                It should be exactly the same in the army.
                Whoever thinks that the army is not a business, believe me, it is a business.
                Just a state one.
                1. +6
                  18 September 2023 06: 07
                  The author collected excellent material and made generally correct conclusions, but did not say the main thing. Napoleon said that a herd of rams under the control of a lion is much stronger than a herd of lions under the control of a ram, and these words perfectly reflect how the SVO is carried out.
                  The reasons why our army and country came to the Northern Military District are the complete incompetence and lack of training of the leadership of the Defense Ministry and the country, the outdated knowledge of even military generals and, most importantly, cowardice and inability to take meaningful actions of the GDP.
                  Neither the GDP itself, nor the Chief of the General Staff, nor the Minister of Defense initially had clear goals for the SVO, so they were unable to determine ways to achieve them, hence the complete lack of preparation of the army for actions of such a scale and with such an enemy as the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

                  If the goal of the SVO was to seize Ukraine, with its subsequent inclusion in the Russian Federation, and this is how most Russians saw the main goal of the SVO after February 24, 2022, then the SVO should have been prepared completely differently from how it was prepared and conducted in a completely different way. And the gesture of goodwill, with the withdrawal of our troops from near Kiev, Sumy, Chernigov and the western part of the Kharkov region, is a crime of the GDP and the oligarchic system against our country and will go down in history as one of the biggest betrayals and betrayals of the country’s leader.
            2. +8
              15 September 2023 14: 39
              Yes, okay, blame it on these “managers”. Were they already in charge of everything during the process? The communications system, the control system, both at the tactical and operational levels, the logistics system - all this is the responsibility of the military, not civilians.
          2. +15
            15 September 2023 09: 44
            I’m very interested in what our brilliant leadership was counting on when they were preparing for this very operation?

            Was it getting ready???
            How did you want to win?

            Did you want to?? Sorry, what did they want? If we win, then during what? There is no war. And it wasn't...
            Actually, this is one of the most interesting questions - what exactly did they want??
            1. +11
              15 September 2023 13: 02
              in Gostomel they got hooked thoroughly and the landing force was unraveled there only after gestures of good will... the Abramovichs didn’t have their thimbles in that storm...
              and landing ships on the Odessa roadstead, how much Sisi crushed ...
              the main difference between the storm and ours is that there were goals, but here we have not yet decided on Kiev... hence all this chaos
            2. +13
              15 September 2023 15: 19
              Quote: frog
              Did you want to?? Sorry, what did they want? If we win, then during what? There is no war. And it wasn't...

              They wanted to create external conditions for a coup in Ukraine by forces loyal to Russia. There was no Plan B. In fact, the political leadership of the Russian Federation was deceived by British intelligence, which filled the leadership's ears with confidence in success thanks to the resources and supporters of Medvedchuk... who by that time had been under arrest and under complete control for at least a year.
              Stupidity?
              Overconfidence?
              Cunning Plan?
              ...Too cunning.
              In general, throughout the entire company, the impression is that war, sorry, SVO is needed precisely for war. It is more convenient to rebuild the world under the cover of the smoke of war.
              1. +3
                15 September 2023 18: 23
                Medvedchuk’s supporters were not visible, he was imprisoned and no one came out into the street. Yes, and Medvedchuk continued to sit in prison, I don’t remember that any special forces detachment was sent to rescue him.
                1. +6
                  15 September 2023 20: 09
                  Quote from alexoff
                  Medvedchuk’s supporters were not visible, he was imprisoned and no one came out into the street.

                  He had no intention of taking anyone out onto the streets. If everything had worked out as planned, it would have been an ordinary Ukrainian-style elitist coup. And he had supporters (including the military). But they were neutralized by MI6 and Azov's thugs. On the very first day of the start of the Northern Military District there was a shootout at the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, and the Mariupol group MI-6 and Azov were cleared out of almost or simply the entire command. That is why it was necessary to gather so many officers and generals of NATO and even Israel there. There was no one to command.
                  Quote from alexoff
                  I don’t remember that any special forces detachment was sent to rescue him.

                  At the very moment the SVO began, when the first bombs and missiles whistled, Medvedchuk cut off his guard bracelet and either ran and hid “until the end”, or was immediately taken out by the SBU and MI6... But in the beginning of the SVO, MI6 outright outplayed SVR. They provoked the Russian Federation to start the operation, assuring that the clown would immediately flee the country, and Medvedchuk would ride onto Bankovaya on a “white horse”. And everything will immediately become “like under grandma.”
                  1. +1
                    15 September 2023 21: 46
                    Quote: bayard
                    If everything had worked out as planned, it would have been an ordinary elitist coup in the Ukrainian style

                    What was planned there? What about a coup and automatic sanctions on the whole of Ukraine as on the DPRK?
                    Quote: bayard
                    On the very first day of the start of the Northern Military District there was a shootout at the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, and the Mariupol group MI-6 and Azov were cleared out of almost or simply the entire command. That is why it was necessary to gather so many officers and generals of NATO and even Israel there.

                    Apparently our allies were not given weapons, James Bonds shot everyone
                    Quote: bayard
                    They provoked the Russian Federation to start the operation, assuring that the clown would immediately flee the country, and Medvedchuk would ride onto Bankovaya on a “white horse”. And everything will immediately become “like under grandma”

                    I doubt that Putin expected to feed a second Belarus three times larger. No one made contact with Ukrainian officials
                    1. +6
                      16 September 2023 13: 50
                      Quote from alexoff
                      What was planned there? What about a coup and automatic sanctions on the whole of Ukraine as on the DPRK?

                      And for what exactly? A common Ukrainian practice is the forceful seizure of power. It has been worked out since the first Maidan. If everything had happened quickly enough, then everything would have turned out that way.
                      But this was a trap of the Anglo-Saxons. The towers were deployed like Saddam Huein in Kuwait. Remember?
                      Quote from alexoff
                      Apparently our allies were not given weapons, James Bonds shot everyone

                      In addition to their special forces, the “James Bonds” had fighters from “Azov” and Co. And they had everything under control from the very beginning. It was their trap... and not a trap for them.
                      Quote from alexoff
                      I doubt that Putin expected to feed a second Belarus three times larger.

                      Why feed her? Ukraine was already not poorly fed - on transit flows, agriculture, metallurgy. Without hypertrophied military expenses, she completely supported herself. And would continue to contain it. Plus, restored cooperation ties with Russia would give a good increase to the budget. So no subsidies would be required. And with proper management of the economy, it will feed whoever you want.
                      Quote from alexoff
                      No one made contact with Ukrainian officials

                      More HOW let's go! laughing
                      On the third day. First in Minsk, then in Istanbul.
                      And this despite the fact that the coup never happened and the Clown did not escape.

                      The towers were given guarantees of non-interference in the Northern Military District (unofficially) in an informal setting just before the start. They say we are leaving, you come in, shoot a little for the sake of decency. It's time for us to deal with China.
                      Good bait?
                      Good. Yes
                      So they fell for it.
                      And they were so confident in the agreements that even the Small Army was not properly prepared, nor was it brought up to an acceptable number.
                      And now everything is completely serious. Now the Army will be Big. And as a result of the new redivision of the world, Europe may return to the Dark Ages again... it is already returning.
                      Well, the United States now has two fronts for sure. And maybe more.
                      1. +4
                        18 September 2023 17: 43
                        In general, a classic from the beginning of new eras. Everyone prepared their plans and everyone dealt with them in public.
            3. +11
              15 September 2023 16: 30
              The main task is the demilitarization of Ukraine. The result is the complete rearmament of the Ukrainian army, with modern high-precision artillery and MLRS, modern tanks and other armored vehicles, missiles, etc., as well as the creation of an army and training of personnel. Well, the second task - denazification is possible could only be accomplished by solving the first one,
            4. +8
              16 September 2023 00: 49
              Did you want to?? Sorry, what did they want? If we win, then during what? There is no war. And it wasn't...
              Actually, this is one of the most interesting questions - what exactly did they want??

              At our plant, even ordinary managers at the foreman level were given a form in which they had to indicate whether there was a conflict of interest. The manager is not able to work at full capacity, or will even sabotage the work if he has another business in another company and this business is damaged.
              It is this conflict of interest that explains the indecisiveness of the Russian authorities in relation to the saloreich; some high-ranking officials have relatives and fortunes in NATO countries and are afraid of the arrest of accounts, therefore sabotaging the interests of the country.
              By the way, the British have a law according to which a hired manager is obliged, first of all, to look after the interests of the employer, even if this may cause harm to himself under pain of criminal punishment. The Russian Federation does not have such laws.
              In theory, in Russia it is necessary to nationalize the elites, identify bureaucrats holding fortunes in the West and send them to retirement, adopt a law on the primacy of the country’s interests over the personal interests of bureaucrats and oligarchs, then the goals of the SVO will be more meaningful.
              1. +5
                16 September 2023 06: 10
                in Russia it is necessary to nationalize the elites, identify bureaucrats holding fortunes in the West and send them to retirement, adopt a law on the primacy of the country’s interests over the personal interests of bureaucrats and oligarchs, then the goals of the SVO will be more meaningful.

                Necessary . But then it may turn out that there are no goals. And the guarantor “firmly” assured that there will be no “nationalization”.
            5. +1
              16 September 2023 06: 01
              Actually, this is one of the most interesting questions - what exactly did they want??

              hi
            6. 0
              8 January 2024 10: 02
              Quote: frog
              Sorry, what did they want?

              I assume - the destruction of the central government of the Outskirts. A strike from the north (Chernigov region) and a strike from the south (landing in Gostomel) on Kyiv. The destruction of the central government is chaos in the state, this is a victory. That’s why it’s not war, but SVO. But, the “partners” came to the rescue and therefore - negotiations, and to ensure them - a gesture of goodwill - the withdrawal of troops from the occupied territories.
              And again, for the umpteenth time, our “strategists” were fooled like suckers.
          3. AAK
            +14
            15 September 2023 10: 17
            More than a year and a half has passed since then, but if the soldiers, most of the officers and some of the generals have learned something, or at least are confidently trying to learn, then the top political and military leadership have not learned anything and do not want to learn, which is why we have this situation , which has developed
            1. +3
              16 September 2023 00: 59
              the top political and military leadership learned nothing

              It’s not enough to learn, you must physically have in service at least 20 electronic warfare aircraft, 10 avaccs and 20 RTR of which there are none.
              1. 0
                19 September 2023 21: 25
                Why not compensate for this with satellite reconnaissance? You can order small low-orbit satellites with optical equipment and use them to litter the entire orbit over Ukraine. Yes, it won’t be the same, but it will be fast and at least something.
                1. +3
                  20 September 2023 08: 30
                  Quote: Plate
                  . Yes, it won’t be the same, but it will be fast and at least something.

                  It will be slow and nothing. Because the satellites that you propose are capable of issuing control signals exclusively for stationary objects, and this is what we can do even now
                  1. 0
                    20 September 2023 18: 14
                    I expected that a large number of satellites would make it possible to track changes on the battlefield with a time interval that was short enough for these tasks. It is unlikely that it will be possible to issue the control command in this way, but at least the knowledge of the situation will increase. But by the way... Do you have materials on the topic of satellite reconnaissance, its limitations (including those that must be supplemented by RTR and aerial reconnaissance) and the current state?
          4. +21
            15 September 2023 10: 36
            The Russian leadership apparently hoped to frighten the “bad Ukrainian oligarchs,” which would allow “friendly oligarchs” like Medvedchuk to come to power in Ukraine. Actually, Putin’s speech on February 24.02.2022, XNUMX is exactly about this. However, the oligarchs turned out to be not so friendly. Moreover, according to Klintsevich, Ukrainian figures who received money from the Russian leadership deceived him (surprisingly, right?). Beyond this, no plan is visible. Medvedchuk, however, had to be exchanged for the Azov team so as not to say too much there.
            1. +6
              15 September 2023 16: 51
              And so it was - Putin’s speech is proof of this. It was more likely not even a plan for the SVO, but for the SVD - a “special military demonstration.”
            2. +3
              16 September 2023 01: 07
              apparently, to frighten the “bad Ukrainian oligarchs”, which would allow “friendly oligarchs” to come to power in Ukraine

              In principle, this coup plan is good in the sense that it is possible to do without destroyed cities and millions of casualties, but at the same time a backup plan B must be developed, with the required number of forces, aircraft tanks and mobilization, which was not done. Plan A did not work and the Kremlin was caught by surprise.
          5. +13
            15 September 2023 10: 49
            They counted on the promises of godfather Solntselikogo that if they scared, the Ukrainians would get scared and crawl on their knees. Neither the GRU nor the FSB bothered to double-check. They wanted to grab it, but it didn’t work out..
          6. +17
            15 September 2023 11: 02
            Quote: Stas157
            After all, there must be some kind of plan! What did it consist of? Throw hats?

            "Crimea-2" was a star among SUV drivers; they planned to grab orders and titles.
          7. +9
            15 September 2023 13: 09
            We thought it would be like Georgia or something like that. Let's rush with all our might to the capital. They will get scared and give up. That's all. Hence all the preparation, none at all.
            It turned out they didn’t give up and everything went wrong.
            1. 0
              17 September 2023 08: 28
              In Georgia there was a different balance of forces.
          8. +19
            15 September 2023 14: 03
            Alas, yesterday’s victories in “aviadarts” and “tank” bambintons with “ballets” are not the victories that we are so looking forward to today and not the ones that we need!
            Beautiful aunties in general's uniform and uncles with a stern expression on their faces are not the Father Commanders who are incredibly needed by our army now. There have already been Kuropatkins in our history!
            I remember the lines about how the operation will begin ".... in two minutes the enemy radar screens will go dark, and aircraft engines at the airfields will not start... ALL communication systems and geopositioning equipment will immediately fail, satellites will go blind, missiles will begin to go off course and dejectedly fall anywhere...."
            This is the kind of heresy they fed us and generously poured into the President.
            In fact, EVERYTHING was taken out again and again by the Russian Soldier and his field Commanders! They were the ones who fought without communications and reconnaissance, using old maps in isolation from the rear and, thank God, brilliant instructions with the most valuable advice! It’s difficult and complicated, but they managed, like 70 years ago, to show that we are Wars in essence and in spirit!
            And it’s also very important not to lie to yourself and tell the truth, instead of elegant pictures from “Bambintons” and “ballets” - then we will have the right DLRO planes, reliable satellites, the best rockets and the powerful ships we need!
          9. -16
            15 September 2023 14: 58
            Was there time for preparation - at least six months, like in Iraq? And it seems that they still hoped to reach an agreement and delayed it until the last minute. It is unlikely that much time would have been given after the 24th; the decision was largely forced, and not, like in Iraq, carefully prepared. In addition, it was apparently difficult to especially intensify reconnaissance, and perhaps there was nothing to do.
            There were probably a lot of mistakes, but I think we won’t know all the details soon.
            1. +6
              15 September 2023 21: 30
              Quote from shikin
              Was there time for preparation - at least six months, like in Iraq?

              And all the endless exercises of the western and southern districts, then the gathering of troops to the borders a year before the start of the Northern Military District? I'm not even talking about the endless conversations about the analoguenet, the Khibiny Mountains, 70% of modern technology in recent years, caps up and a complete disregard for reality. As the article correctly noted, the time of the attack was determined by Putin.
            2. +1
              16 September 2023 01: 18
              that they still hoped to reach an agreement, they waited until the last

              Because the bourgeoisie made money on both sides, they didn’t need the war, so they delayed and negotiated, but the war was needed by the United States, which masterfully nurtured Banderaism and pitted our countries against each other. The hegemon has overwhelming capabilities over the raw material appendages in the dollar zone.
            3. +3
              16 September 2023 06: 33
              Was there time for preparation - at least six months, like in Iraq?

              It was at least 8-9 years old. From the moment the decision was made to annex Crimea. From that moment on, the likelihood of a full-scale armed conflict increased hourly. Moreover, “diplomatic moves” only aggravated this possibility. So there was an opportunity and there were even attempts. Moreover, in some areas the training can be called quite “at the level”, but the overall mosaic did not work out. Nevertheless, this indicates that there was a command to prepare, and how it was carried out and why exactly that way.....
            4. -1
              16 September 2023 06: 33
              Was there time for preparation - at least six months, like in Iraq?

              It was at least 8-9 years old. From the moment the decision was made to annex Crimea. From that moment on, the likelihood of a full-scale armed conflict increased hourly. Moreover, “diplomatic moves” only aggravated this possibility. So there was an opportunity and there were even attempts. Moreover, in some areas the training can be called quite “at the level”, but the overall mosaic did not work out. Nevertheless, this indicates that there was a command to prepare, and how it was carried out and why exactly that way.....
            5. +6
              16 September 2023 12: 36
              The decision to conduct a military military operation was in the second half of 2020, the beginning of the concentration of troops was in the spring of 2021, there was time.
              1. 0
                22 September 2023 11: 31
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                The decision to conduct a military military operation was in the second half of 2020, the beginning of the concentration of troops was in the spring of 2021, there was time.

                No one would really allow millions to gather there.
                Otherwise, I would have congratulated everyone under the Christmas tree with a nuclear suitcase for the New Year.
          10. +10
            15 September 2023 16: 09
            To the joyful meeting of often uncovered columns, with waving flags. This is what the Medvedchuk and other nasty things promised, analysts and all kinds of forecasters/experts swore to this.
          11. 0
            15 September 2023 17: 43
            Quote: Stas157
            unrealistic planning

            How do we know what they were planning there?
          12. +1
            16 September 2023 14: 38
            It's simple. The calculation was that the local elites, with whom there was an agreement, as in the Kherson and Zaporozhye regions, would surrender everything without a fight, changing power. But someone, with their reports, convinced too much that everything was fine, the top management. Doing absolutely nothing for years. we did, for their operation in Ukraine to turn it into a battering ram against Russia, they must be presented with their highest awards in the states for life. They outplayed it so much that you're amazed. I understand that our personnel have become smaller, that now there are no Sudoplatovs and others. But, after the blow received and many slaps in the face, the VPR does not realize that now they cannot lose, which means that all nepotism must be removed in order to save, first of all, their own lives. If at the first stage of the Northern Military District the opposing forces of the Ukrainian Armed Forces had been destroyed properly, taking control of the border, key centers, etc., NATO would have fought now, and China would have long ago concluded a military-political alliance. But instead, mediocre marching columns.
          13. 0
            8 October 2023 14: 36
            Our leadership hoped that it would be possible to carry out everything almost bloodlessly, like in Crimea 2014.. (Medvedchuk swore by their mother that there would be flowers and bread and salt)..
            The Supreme Commander-in-Chief, in turn, naively believed intelligence reports...
            Well, I don’t even want to talk about the restrictions “don’t shoot there, there’s a factory and a gas pipeline.”
          14. +1
            13 December 2023 20: 38
            Who said they wanted to win? Money in colossal and most likely uncontrollable flows is sent to the department where SKSH and Co. have already learned to master it by increasing their own capital. Under the sauce of patriotism and the fight against Western agents, laws and control over sensible people are being tightened. Dissent is driven back into the kitchen.
            Thanks to the author for the interesting article, but, as they say, accidents are not accidental. What is happening now is beneficial to the authorities. Otherwise this would not have happened. And women still give birth to humans...
          15. 0
            9 January 2024 10: 13
            So Shoigu and Gerasimov, that says it all!
        2. +16
          15 September 2023 10: 59
          Quote: U. Cheny
          They have already counted. Otherwise they would not have acted so brazenly and demonstratively.

          All this says one thing: if the “galoshes builder” of the USSR had not created a nuclear shield, air force, and air defense, then another “Storm” would have been waiting for us long ago...
          1. +13
            15 September 2023 11: 54
            So she’s already waiting for us, no one really hides it.
            And the enemy believes less and less in the ability of our “leadership” to respond seriously.
        3. 0
          15 September 2023 12: 36
          The author did not cover the topic of unmanned aircraft. To gain air superiority, the Russian Aerospace Forces need the massive use of UAVs, which may well replace reconnaissance by aircraft. It is the drones, which will continuously hover in the air above the LBS and rear areas, that will drive the Ukrainian Armed Forces underground and destroy the artillery and air defense of the near-front cover.
          1. +15
            15 September 2023 12: 44
            Quote: Bearded
            . To gain air superiority, the Russian Aerospace Forces need the massive use of UAVs, which may well replace reconnaissance by aircraft.

            First, UAVs are not necessary to gain air superiority and suppress enemy air defenses. They are useful as an additional tool, but nothing more.
            Secondly, after gaining air supremacy and destroying air defenses, it becomes possible, of course, to use large reconnaissance UAVs, but, again, only as part of the forces involved in this task.
            UAVs are useful, have their own niches of application, but in the foreseeable future they are unable to replace manned aircraft in any of the tasks they solve
            1. +6
              15 September 2023 13: 33
              Author I generally agree with your assessment of Desert Storm. But I categorically disagree that Russia could have done something similar in Ukraine, even if all the preparatory work that you describe had been carried out.
              There are factors that in Ukraine are radically different from the situation in Iraq.
              There is a very important factor - numbers.
              As you yourself wrote, the pro-American coalition had 2000 combat aircraft. How much can Russia allocate to Ukraine? According to the most optimistic estimates, 500 combat aircraft.
              And the difference is simply huge. That is, conditionally, the Americans could allocate, say, 1000 aircraft to combat air defense and 1000 aircraft to work on the ground.
              And we? Shall we allocate 500 aircraft to combat air defense? But even then we will do it twice as badly as the Americans. What about working on the ground? Nothing.

              The second most important factor. The Americans achieved the implementation of the embargo imposed on the supply of weapons to Iraq, and in particular air defense systems. As a result, the Americans could make an exchange. Lose a certain number of aircraft, if only the Iraqi air defense installations were destroyed in response. That is, suffer some losses for a certain period of time, and then Iraq’s air defense would simply end and, accordingly, American losses would stop.
              In Ukraine it is fundamentally different. Air defense systems are supplied to Ukraine. There was an article here at VO that there are literally thousands of slightly outdated air defense systems in NATO warehouses that still pose a threat to any aircraft. That is, instead of one destroyed air defense installation, Ukraine immediately got a new one (or even two). And our planes would suffer losses trying to destroy this endless stream.
              Where would all this lead?
              Officially, the pro-American coalition lost 52 aircraft in 44 days. But in fact, the Americans lost more than 70 aircraft. The large write-off of aircraft immediately after the end of hostilities clearly indicates that many aircraft that returned to base were critically damaged and were not restored.
              This turns out to be 1,59 aircraft for each day of combat. The SVO lasts for about a year and a half. This means that with the same losses as the Americans, our losses would currently amount to 870 aircraft. That is, one and a half times more than we could generally allocate to Ukraine. In fact, the losses would have been much greater, because we could have allocated 4 times fewer aircraft for the operation than the Americans. This means that they could have performed tasks to suppress air defense many times worse and would have suffered much more losses and, most likely, by now, ALL RUSSIA’S COMBAT AVIATION WOULD BE DESTROYED.
              And I repeat this, even though all your wishes for the modernization of our aerospace forces were fulfilled and they would be equal in efficiency to the American Air Force.

              So maybe this would be justified because thanks to this we won the war?
              According to Wiki, Iraq lost 44-10 thousand people in 12 days.
              It’s hard to say how much we would have stuffed, it’s unlikely to be more. Since the Americans could attract at least 1 thousand aircraft for ground strikes, how many could we allocate? Taking into account that most of the aircraft are engaged in air defense, 50-60 aircraft? Really funny.
              How many have Ukraine lost killed to date? Obviously more than 100 thousand. Some estimates speak of 300 thousand. Against this background, an additional 10-12 thousand is clearly not capable of influencing anything.
              But if we were left without aviation, then we would definitely lose the war.
              1. +12
                15 September 2023 14: 01
                Quote: SergeyB
                And the difference is simply huge. That is, conditionally, the Americans could allocate, say, 1000 aircraft to combat air defense and 1000 aircraft to work on the ground.
                And we? Shall we allocate 500 aircraft to combat air defense? But even then we will do it twice as badly as the Americans. What about working on the ground? Nothing.

                The Americans knocked out the air defense in the first strike, which, by the way, also destroyed other targets. And about 600 aircraft took part in the first strike, of which 200 were engaged in suppressing air defense. Moreover, after the first three days, the Americans no longer formed separate echelons of any significant size to combat air defense
                And yes, you can eat an elephant in parts.
                Quote: SergeyB
                This turns out to be 1,59 aircraft for each day of combat. The SVO lasts for about a year and a half. This means that with the same losses as the Americans, our losses would currently amount to 870 aircraft.

                Twenty-five again. If we had gained air supremacy, the war would not have lasted a year and a half. This time. Second. You are building a completely erroneous logical chain, averaging everything. And the Americans, officially, lost 24 vehicles in the second half of January and 22 vehicles in the entire month of February, that is, the average daily losses were decreasing.
                Quote: SergeyB
                So maybe this would be justified because thanks to this we won the war?
                According to Wiki, Iraq lost 44-10 thousand people in 12 days.

                According to the wiki, Iraq lost from 20 to 35 thousand killed and 100 thousand wounded.
                Quote: SergeyB
                Taking into account that most of the aircraft are engaged in air defense, 50-60 aircraft? Really funny

                Considering the fact that you haven’t understood the question at all, it’s a kind of sad laugh.
                1. +4
                  15 September 2023 18: 55
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  The Americans knocked out the air defense in the first strike,

                  Why did American planes fall many days after the first strike? Due to malfunctions? After all, the air defense was knocked out)

                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  You are building a completely erroneous logical chain, averaging everything. And the Americans, officially, lost 24 vehicles in the second half of January and 22 vehicles in the entire month of February, that is, the average daily losses were decreasing.


                  That’s why they went downhill because the air defense installations were destroyed, and there were no new supplies.
                  And what happens when, instead of destroyed installations, new ones appear, the same Americans checked a little earlier.
                  Well, who will say that the Americans fought poorly in Vietnam?
                  And their technology and equipment was the best in the world. And skilled and brave pilots. And electronic warfare and anti-radar missiles. Proactive and skillful leadership at all levels. And excellent intelligence and analytics and communications. And supplies and weapons are simply in gigantic quantities. The Americans had everything and even more to win the air part of this war.
                  And their enemy had unlimited air defense installations. And having lost an indecent number of aircraft, the Americans were blown away.
                  And it would be the same with us in Ukraine.
                  1. +7
                    15 September 2023 20: 10
                    Quote: SergeyB
                    Why did American planes fall many days after the first strike? Due to malfunctions? After all, the air defense was knocked out)

                    Read the article
                    Undoubtedly, Iraq had a certain number of operational air defense systems until the very end of hostilities; they fought and even shot down MNF aircraft. Iraq's air defense lost, of course, not completely, but still miserably: the Iraqis were unable to protect the ground armed forces and infrastructure from systematic destruction from the air.

                    What specific word do you not understand?
                    Quote: SergeyB
                    That’s why they went downhill because the air defense installations were destroyed, and there were no new supplies.

                    Sergey, honestly... maybe that's enough?
                    Quote: SergeyB
                    What happens when, instead of destroyed installations, new ones appear?

                    Our VKS would never have found out. For one simple reason - you have completely forgotten how the supply of military equipment to the Armed Forces of Ukraine developed.
                    No one rushed to transfer military equipment to the Ukrainian Armed Forces at the beginning of the Northern Military District. There, everything progressed - the longer and more indistinctly the NWO dragged on, the more emboldened the United States and its European assistants became. If you look at air defense, they initially only transmitted stingers. They only ripened to IRIS-T in October. And if ours had acted as they should, then most likely it would not have come to the supply of lethal military equipment at all.
                    This is not to mention the fact that no limit is possible there in principle, because NATO is not very good with air defense systems. They relied on the Air Force; their ground-based air defense was a residual one. But for the same Patriots, calculations need to be learned, and for a long time.
                    Quote: SergeyB
                    And their enemy had unlimited air defense installations. And having lost an indecent number of aircraft, the Americans were blown away.

                    In fact, it was the ground-based air defense that ultimately failed. See "Linebacker" and "Linebacker II"
                    1. 0
                      19 September 2023 17: 13
                      Andrey, apparently you don’t quite understand what your opponents are writing about? You cannot compare the MNF in the war with Iraq and the Aerospace Forces in the Northern Military District; the goals and methods (MNF and Aerospace Forces) in these wars are very different. It is correct to compare the MNF and the Aerospace Forces in a direct confrontation, which NATO and the Russian Federation prudently avoid. Tactically, Ukrainian aviation and air defense were practically destroyed in the first days of the Northern Military District. Then the Russian Federation tried to wage a war of maneuver with small forces, counting on an internal Ukrainian conflict. It didn’t work out, due to the factor of passionate Ukraine. Passionaries can be not only bright personalities, but also completely dark ones: criminals, executioners, etc. Unfortunately for Ukraine (and Russia!), the passionaries of Ukraine chose an extreme form of Nazism! What caused the change in the strategy of the Northern Military District of the Russian Federation, is the physical destruction of the passionaries of Ukraine. What they themselves, and the West supporting them, contribute to.
                      1. +4
                        20 September 2023 08: 32
                        Quote: SavranP
                        Tactically, Ukrainian aviation and air defense were practically destroyed in the first days of the Northern Military District.

                        tactical aviation and air defense of Ukraine are very much alive, but the Russian Aerospace Forces, after the first attempts to fight over the territory of Ukraine, suffered significant losses and essentially operate either with long-range missiles, or only along the front edge from their own airspace.
              2. +1
                17 September 2023 08: 39
                The ground grouping of troops was also extremely insufficient for a protracted conflict, but a country like Ukraine cannot be captured quickly. It’s big, and it was relatively ready after Donbass and Crimea
              3. 0
                19 September 2023 19: 56
                Quote: SergeyB
                Author I generally agree with your assessment of Desert Storm. But categorically I don’t agree that Russia could do something like that in Ukraine

                absolutely correct conclusion!!! good
                in that situation, a number of much more technically equipped and developed countries, having a colossal superiority (over Iraq), could afford well-coordinated preparation, and a qualitative superiority in reconnaissance assets (including space) had a colossal superiority in aviation used for the operation " Desert Storm...
                in the case of the Russian Federation, there is absolutely no superiority in air and space reconnaissance assets of NATO allies, providing operational information to the enemy, almost in real time...!!!
                hi
                1. +2
                  20 September 2023 08: 54
                  Quote: Vl Nemchinov
                  having colossal superiority (over Iraq),

                  About 2000 aircraft against 700. We had about 1000 against 124 conditionally combat-ready.
                  Quote: Vl Nemchinov
                  could afford well-coordinated training and a qualitative superiority in reconnaissance means (including space)

                  Believe it or not, we could afford all this too. Because it’s a little bit three times the size of Ukraine, and our military budget is three times larger....
                  The potential gap should roughly correspond to Iraq and the MNF. And what does not correspond - questions to those who built the RF Armed Forces
            2. +3
              15 September 2023 18: 37
              First, UAVs are not necessary to gain air superiority and suppress enemy air defenses.

              At the moment, it is a strictly necessary condition in the confrontation between comparable opponents. Otherwise, this is what we now have during the SVO.
              At the beginning of the conflict, the Russian Aerospace Forces had a significant numerical and technological superiority in terms of manned aircraft over the Ukrainian Air Force. What have you achieved?
              after gaining air supremacy and destroying air defenses, it becomes, of course, possible to use large reconnaissance UAVs,

              Why? Air superiority is enough for this. Losses of UAVs are much less painful (provided that we can mass produce them, of course).
              in the foreseeable future are unable to replace manned aviation in any of the tasks it solves

              In the current conflict, they have already replaced attack aircraft by 80 percent. And reconnaissance aircraft at the tactical level, too.
              In the foreseeable future (10-15 years), drones will become the main workhorse of aviation in developed countries in terms of supporting ground forces.
          2. +1
            15 September 2023 18: 19
            Quote: Bearded
            The author did not cover the topic of unmanned aircraft. To gain air superiority, the Russian Aerospace Forces need the massive use of UAVs, which may well replace reconnaissance by aircraft. It is the drones, which will continuously hover in the air above the LBS and rear areas, that will drive the Ukrainian Armed Forces underground and destroy the artillery and air defense of the near-front cover.

            Wrong.
            Given the dominance of enemy aviation, hundreds and thousands of drones are useless in principle.
            Because enemy aircraft will destroy everything, including drone launchers. They are generally very easy to detect and identify for aircraft avionics.
            1. +4
              15 September 2023 18: 42
              Given the dominance of enemy aviation, hundreds and thousands of drones are useless in principle.

              If one of the opponents has thousands of drones (not volunteer drones and Ali drones, although they will play), air supremacy will not happen. Especially if the owner of the drones strikes first. If we had several hundred attack UAVs in February 2022, the entire air defense system would have gone differently.
              1. +1
                18 September 2023 16: 11
                Quote: Ryazanets87
                If we had several hundred attack UAVs in February 2022, the entire air defense system would have gone differently.

                Blessed is he who believes. Amen
        4. +5
          16 September 2023 01: 36
          Please note that in the west there is the Air Force, and we have the Aerospace Forces. In the Russian Federation they really like to rub their glasses in with various ostentatious biathlon things and it looks like they have deceived themselves. They renamed the air force to aerospace forces and decided that the Western air forces were no match for our space forces. But in fact, there is no complete nomenclature, neither modern RTR aircraft nor electronic warfare, AWACS, in mass quantities. And no attention was paid to gliding bombs either.
      2. -10
        15 September 2023 07: 51
        Here we need to remember how this war ended and who won.
        1. +21
          15 September 2023 08: 49
          Quote: Mihail80
          Here we need to remember how this war ended and who won

          The Great Patriotic War ended, because Hitler believed that he would easily crush the USSR
        2. +24
          15 September 2023 09: 46
          Here we need to remember how this war ended and who won.

          Well, what do we do next, but no conclusions have been drawn. In 2008, look at Sladkov’s reports: how commanders tried to control troops using mobile cellular communications (cellular communications, Karl), how they were ambushed at the exit from the Roki tunnel, how their own MANPADS shot down their own due to communication problems and misunderstandings friend or foe. It was 2008, 14 years will pass and civilians will try to control the troops using baofengs. Communication is some kind of scourge of our army, a lesson that the military does not want to learn. And in 2014 they limited themselves to Crimea, and shyly closed their eyes to the southeast, although then they could have been taken with the same success, because the Armed Forces of Ukraine 2014 is not the Armed Forces of Ukraine 2022, which our generals arrogantly ignored. There was an option to take Crimea and the southeast with minimal losses (both in people and in infrastructure) and immediately build a defense, and bypass sanctions in the same way as now, but now we have OUR southwestern regions destroyed, and everyday losses like in people and in technology. And then we will have to restore all this at our expense.
          1. +8
            15 September 2023 10: 07
            Quote: T-100
            In 2008, look at Sladkov’s reports: how commanders use mobile cellular communications (cellular communications, Karl)

            In SVO they managed through Kyivstar and bought SIM cards from locals. Cell phones with telegram application and open communication on Baofengs.
            1. +7
              15 September 2023 10: 26
              In SVO they already managed through Kyivstar

              You shouldn't even be surprised
              1. +5
                16 September 2023 00: 19
                Why be surprised? - If a couple of years ago (I could be a little wrong) there was a scandal with a department of the Ministry of Internal Affairs providing passage for top officials on the highways of the capital - they used an application on their phone to communicate and transmit information... wait - it seems they knocked from below... - I'll go take a look...
          2. +3
            16 September 2023 01: 42
            14 years will pass and they will be civilian baofengs

            They even controlled Kyivstar via cellular communications. But it cannot be said that the Ministry of Defense did not understand the communication problem; it did and allocated money for development, but corruption brought the efforts to naught.
            Alas, the systemic problems of wild capitalism are taking their toll...
          3. 0
            17 September 2023 08: 47
            There was no such option. Capturing Donbass and defending yourself is the path to endless war and defeat. It was possible either not to attack at all or to take all of Ukraine at once in 2014. Personally, I think that a successful military campaign against Ukraine was generally unlikely. The capabilities of the Russian Federation and the army are insufficient for such a purpose.
          4. 0
            19 September 2023 21: 42
            Quote: T-100
            APU 2014 is not APU 2022

            Why is the RF Armed Forces 2014 the same as the RF Armed Forces 2022? 8 years have passed. Well, okay, the role of the UAV was already clarified during the SVO - it is accepted. But where are the satellites? Why weren’t stocks of reconnaissance spacecraft prepared for launch at the beginning of the conflict? Where is the notorious connection? Where are the modern digital radio stations and walkie-talkies? Where are the red dot sights? Where are all these necessary bells and whistles? We had operations in Syria - did special groups really not have practical experience there regarding modern tactical medicine? Why, by the way, did only the Northern Military District think about UMPC? The Americans have done this kind of thing a long time ago. And so on and so forth.
            1. 0
              24 September 2023 18: 18
              Arming the entire army is much more expensive than the SOF in Syria. Russia does not have the opportunity to modernize everything it wants. Very soon, the legacy of the USSR will go away due to obsolescence and resource depletion, and the capitalist Russian Federation will be left with what it can do on its own - that is, what it deserves. Then citizens will have to moderate their expectations.
      3. +7
        15 September 2023 09: 33
        It reminds me more of Iran-Iraq. Also, first advancing into enemy territory, then holding back the counter-offensive and enduring periodic painful attacks from enemy aircraft.
    2. +34
      15 September 2023 07: 30
      The SVO showed the main thing: the command of the Aerospace Forces does not have a doctrine for the use of aviation, hence the lack of infrastructure to support it in battle! am
      What catches your eye is that the main criterion for adopting a system is its commercial success on world markets! bully
      The Aerospace Forces only have Su aircraft, MIG somehow didn’t work out in the world and the Aerospace Forces didn’t need them either, ShakhMat is an international project, we didn’t need such an aircraft either feel But sponsors appeared, and it seemed like we needed them too. It’s good that the S300 and TOP also turned out to be in demand on the world market and were able to develop, and the Pantsir was created by order of the UAE, which paid for its development. Other systems turned out to be not in demand on the world market and we don’t need this whole economy either laughing The war has just begun and we are bare-bottomed! lol
      Even the QMS for bombs, as it turns out, was actually ready 10 years ago, but the world market prefers American kits and the Aerospace Forces before the Northern Military District also did not fuss to purchase them, since without a doctrine it is not clear how many of them are needed and for what fool


      Respect to the author, for a patient with a callus laughing good
      1. +10
        15 September 2023 14: 48
        the command of the Aerospace Forces does not have a doctrine for the use of aviation

        Does the Navy have it? What about the ground forces? The problem is that we, in principle, do not have a real doctrine for the use of armed forces.
        What did we say before - even if not officially? Like, we have a “nuclear power”, so there cannot be large armed conflicts that are not the third world war. Therefore, we are building a “compact” army.
        But then, what the hell is the point of starting operations where the probability of a major armed conflict in the format of a conventional war is much more than 50%?
        1. +7
          15 September 2023 18: 38
          Yes, we don’t have any doctrines at all. Why do we need science? Well, over the hill there are articles and news generated, and we will evaluate science by the number of articles, like athletes by the number of medals. Why do we need space? It is unclear what they are doing there on the ISS. Nobody knows what the country should be like
          1. +7
            16 September 2023 00: 00
            He destroyed science and education - now they have received the consequence of this. After all, it turns out that solving and planning global tasks at the state level is difficult and this requires highly qualified specialists, whom it is EXPENSIVE to create in the country, but NECESSARY.
            Specialists are needed to establish production in the country, to build a steadily growing economy, to feed the entire country, to provide all the necessary technologies, and to understand how to competently use all of the above for your needs.

            How we criticize and criticize the United States or Europeans (from large countries, mainly Great Britain and Germany), saying that everything is bad for them. Yes, they have a lot of problems!!! It is a fact! But no matter what problems they have, they almost NEVER save on education! Because they understand that in the event of a crisis/war/disaster, it will be highly qualified specialists who will restore the country. In the states, you can stumble upon homeless drug addicts in the center of even a large, wealthy metropolis, such as San Francisco or Los Angeles. In Europe, you can come across young ghettos of illegal or semi-legal migrants from the Middle East, who enforce their own laws in their areas.
            But you will almost NEVER read news from them that one or another university or school has closed! You will never find universities there that are NOT provided with everything necessary to educate students. And you will almost NEVER come across news that they have a problem with the migration of university graduates to other countries due to a SHORTAGE of work in OTHER COUNTRIES!!!

            This is the fundamental difference between us and China! There, in the 90s, they did not forget the value of education, and they still remember that “personnel decide everything”!!! And therefore, they used their political openness in the 90s not only to attract foreign capital (which everyone knows and constantly talks about), but also to send their students en masse to study at the best universities in the world or by hiring professors for themselves ( and many people are simply not aware of this or haven’t thought about it)!!!
            And as soon as such a policy brought a sharp increase in the country’s income, one of the first things they did was no, they did not buy foreign currency for the sake of accumulation, did not invest in accounts with various foreign banks and did not spend them on growing billionaires in their own country (Although purely technically, China can afford to have the largest number of billionaires among all other countries in the world)! And they began to invest in infrastructure for education and science in their country, so that they would no longer have to send students abroad. And now China is one of the leading countries in the development of new technologies. According to statistics on the number of patents that are created through the efforts of scientists and engineers from different countries, China has been in first place for several years now and is several times ahead of the nearest countries!

            And all this also applies to military education!
            1. +4
              16 September 2023 01: 06
              We have enough specialists, but no one sets any tasks for the specialists. And since there are no tasks, then what should we give money for? Oil workers and metallurgists do not really need science; the processes are well-established. The state has no idea what to do with scientists. They give money - they say, well, do something for science, report to each other there. The same money could have been given out with the words - the country faces such and such tasks, do what you can. But for such tasks you need to think a lot, the managers themselves need to run around no less than the specialists, and in our country people climb the career ladder not to run around and bother, but on the contrary - to live for their own pleasure, the house is full, endless vacations abroad, and so on.
              1. +4
                17 September 2023 11: 53
                Quote from alexoff
                We have enough specialists

                This was the case 15 years ago, when effective managers easily and naturally threw specialists out into the street at the slightest reduction in orders or dissatisfaction with the meager wages, with the words: “there are a lot of people like you at the entrance, just whistle.” These were Soviet personnel, of whom there were still many, but there were already few enterprises. To become a specialist, for most, it is not enough to undergo specialized training; it was necessary to gain experience under the wing of another specialist. Throughout the 30 years of “democratic” power, few people aspired to become specialists in the field of production, and the old people, taught by bitter experience, eventually stopped passing on their skills to the young ones, so that the young ones would later be replaced. Now those who were 30 at the collapse of the USSR are already over 60 (and they often master all the intricacies of particularly complex experimental productions by the age of 40). Managers are now whistling at the top of their lungs, they are already promising a human salary or even more, but there are no specialists...
      2. +3
        15 September 2023 23: 31
        You have forgotten an important detail - we love parades, and at parades a reconnaissance aircraft does not look very impressive. Krasnopoli and other high points - how to show them at parades? Small drones are not interesting, about nothing. And you don’t need a lot of equipment at parades.
      3. +4
        15 September 2023 23: 39
        Until you wrote this, I didn’t even notice - they really take into service not what is needed or not enough, but what sells well....
        Hence the lack of communications in the troops, low-level UAVs, and medical supplies. support, radio reconnaissance equipment, aircraft for electronic warfare or electronic warfare, etc. (since no one buys it from us, we don’t produce it yet, even for ourselves).
        But they take BMPs and Tunguskas, so we’ll order them for ourselves!
      4. +6
        16 September 2023 00: 23
        there is a doctrine - I believe it contains the doctrine of being in power and financial flows. both themselves and generations
    3. +1
      15 September 2023 08: 40
      Quote from Uncle Lee
      Regression, however...

      Not really. History moves in a spiral. All events are repeated, albeit on a different level. After some time we will again come to tank (or something similar) wedges.
      1. +11
        15 September 2023 13: 10
        Most importantly, we must admit that the Russian Federation has no opportunity to turn the situation in its favor: it has neither the resources nor the necessary weapons, and it is impossible to produce them in the required volume. The Western coalition is simply flooding Ukraine with weapons and Ukrainians only need to master these weapons and learn to use them, which they are successfully doing. And we need much more weapons than the Ukrainians receive. Where are they? They are not in the required volume and the existing capacities are not enough to produce the required volume. This means that we need to produce weapons in the required volume, and this is the creation of capacities, the establishment of production, etc., that is, a distant time with unclear prospects.
        1. +3
          15 September 2023 23: 19
          Yes, in principle, the amount of weapons is sufficient, it is necessary to use them for important purposes, and not in hangars where there are a couple of motorcycles. During the entire period of the North Military District, not a single Ukrainian official was injured, not a single journalist, not a single Ukrainian general. The only Ukrainian refinery is covered with red ribbons, and knocking out the patriot in Kyiv turned out to be a one-time event, although the patriot is standing at the airfield with a Su-24, in the video Zelya himself was hanging out there. But a patriot is not a plane, you can’t overtake it so quickly
  2. +44
    15 September 2023 04: 34
    Everything is to the point. There is no air supremacy. And it won't. And Lend-Lease is gaining and gaining momentum
    1. +30
      15 September 2023 05: 47
      Conclusions: They are scary.

      Serious, well-reasoned article and debriefing. To the author ++!

      Reading VO is boring... and then you look at Rybar for the day’s reports, and clutch at straws “.. repelled the n-attacks...”
      1. +31
        15 September 2023 06: 08
        Well, now at least they have begun to forget how absurd it is at VO, “a medal for the city of Washington,” “we can repeat it.” We can’t, industry, the army and science, defeated in the 9th and finished off later, are in a deplorable state. On the heroism of soldiers in modern warfare victory cannot be achieved.
        1. +15
          15 September 2023 13: 19
          Nobody stopped them from making their industry modern. Until 2014, the entire market was open, we installed French optics, purchased UAV production licenses, etc.

          It was possible to modernize and build dozens of factories. There was a lot of money.

          Maybe stop remembering the 90s. While we are still remembering the 90s and the USSR, China has grown beyond anything we could have ever dreamed of. And we always cry about the past, where are the future?
          1. -8
            15 September 2023 16: 45
            China grew up in an open Western market, which no one opened for the Russian Federation. Asia is home to one of the shadow drug markets and a huge turnover of uncontrolled drugs, but this did not frighten the West. The Russian Federation has always remained alien and unshakable, no matter how it might seem, precisely because it is capable of theoretically giving birth to something different. A glass bead trade program was implemented against the Russian Federation. In other words, even before 14, the West formatted the Russian Federation for itself and made progress. Investing in national defense in such a situation was “why?”
      2. +12
        15 September 2023 08: 50
        Quote: Mikhail Drabkin
        To the author ++!

        Thank you Michael!
      3. +1
        16 September 2023 00: 26
        well, if you read carefully about “recaptured...” - this is not a straw..... it’s better to read “VO”... unfortunately, because the article on VO is letters (albeit based on something) and “recaptured...” - this is no resort at all... to put it mildly
  3. +17
    15 September 2023 04: 37
    It is quite obvious that ours would destroy Ukrainian air defense if they had such an opportunity

    If grandfather was a grandmother...this is from this opera.
    What can I say... what the beginning of the SVO is a whole complex of failed mistakes that on our forum have already been nibbled on from all sides by forum users... now we are trying to change something with a creak.
    The experience of the Wagnerites has shown that in order to successfully fight with the Ukrainian Armed Forces, you need to be one step ahead of them in terms of rapid changes on the battlefield; the speed of making competent decisions by our command is extremely low... you can’t fight like that.
    We are constantly lagging behind the enemy...the initiative is still on his side.
  4. +17
    15 September 2023 05: 03
    I completely agree with Andrey. But even with the remaining aerospace reconnaissance forces, we can fight successfully. Even 50 years ago, our companions could read license plates on cars. Plus, no one has canceled foot sabotage reconnaissance. On the territory of 1000 by 500 km of Ukraine, it is virtually impossible to hide anything. Ukrainians themselves post everything on smartphones and social networks. Our regiments and divisions are fighting to the death, but there is no offensive.
    Why aren't they looking for Suvorov, Kutuzov, Zhukov, Vatutin? Icons sent to the front will not achieve victory. Look at the top, all the colonel generals, right down to the announcer of the central television, Heroes of Russia, all with an academic education, but they do not know modern methods of warfare, they do not understand at all what is happening in the world and what to do. Who can say, like Zhukov did to Stalin, that the logistics of waging war need to be changed?
    As Andrei says, there was enough time to prepare to conduct a lightning war, no worse than Desert Storm. soldier
    1. +14
      15 September 2023 06: 29
      “Look at the top, all the colonel generals, right down to the announcer of central television, Heroes of Russia, all with an academic education, but they do not know modern methods of warfare, they do not understand at all what is happening in the world and what to do.” They don’t have basic knowledge!
    2. +1
      15 September 2023 12: 04
      Why aren't they looking for Suvorov, Kutuzov, Zhukov, Vatutin?
      - but it’s not about outstanding personalities, we mainly need workhorses - technology and those who know how to manage it and organize interaction.
      1. 0
        10 January 2024 21: 36
        that is, instead of inventing and designing a tractor, we need more free cultivators? someone managed to interact with a signal fire, it’s all about the plans, and this needs to be thought through systematically, and don’t scream and give birth as you want, but “bring me snowdrops”
        1. 0
          10 January 2024 22: 49
          You don’t understand: we need mass training of specialists, a conveyor belt, then there will be interchangeability, and relying solely on someone’s genius is a mistake.
          1. 0
            11 January 2024 00: 08
            Unfortunately, these specialists will not help.. they have already written about the lion and rams. they are needed above, not below. Already, modern technology is so complex that to work with it, you need to have several specialized higher educations, and in addition to performing their immediate functions, the operator must be able to set up adjustments and diagnoses. and I can’t even imagine how it’s possible to teach all this, and who even formed the technical requirements and algorithms for people’s work. There was one case where an effective manager arrives, his subordinates report, he can do this and that and generally replaces a bunch of everything. he looked and said there was still such a wunderwaffle missing, and there seemed to be room. and so I wanted to ask, but I should put you there and say come on, here’s the setup data, let’s set it up if you want to use all this, and if it doesn’t set up, you need to understand where the plug happened, at what stage in what mode something was not quite entered . and this is normal, people do not have infinite cognitive capabilities, and even if he had a hundred spans in his forehead, this system would not be effective. since it is not he who builds this system of interaction, but effective managers who themselves are experts according to advertising brochures
    3. +2
      15 September 2023 18: 09
      Quote: V.
      Even 50 years ago, our satellites could read license plates on cars... In the territory of 1000 by 500 km of Ukraine, it is virtually impossible to hide anything.

      This is, to put it mildly, not true. There are what are called nuances.
      1) Those Soviet satellites are almost disposable devices (because they are extremely low-orbit), with photographic film returned to Earth. With a tiny viewing area. In principle, they are not suitable for operational reconnaissance over large areas.
      2) A hypothetical full-fledged orbital constellation of reconnaissance satellites will also be of little help, because it is simply impossible to manually process such an array in real time (it is estimated that half a million images must be analyzed manually, each one sq. km, per minute!!!), and moreover, There will be no continuous surveillance over 1000 km, but only with interruptions (geostationary satellites are not an option), known to the enemy down to the second, which means nothing interferes with the necessary covert maneuvers. And this does not take into account cloudiness, which in certain seasons is almost continuous for many months.
      1. -1
        16 September 2023 05: 57
        One of the commentators noted that modern satellites find the remains of ancient civilizations in deserts and jungles. And in Ukraine they can identify all toilets of the “M and F” type, not to mention the positions of air defense and airfields.
        And then there will always be a person from the headquarters of the Ukrainian Armed Forces or NATO who will sell a map of the location of air defense and, in general, Ukrainian Armed Forces troops in Ukraine for decent money. There are many types of intelligence that double-check and clarify intelligence data. By the way, Putin dealt with this professionally.
        If we don’t have enough troops to go on a full-blooded offensive, then we need to destroy the brains of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and NATO, and any enemy communications. Cut off supplies of fuel, ammunition and equipment.
        The enemy is carrying out sabotage activities throughout the country, the number of fires has increased significantly, partisans are attacking airfields from our territory, gunners are moving in droves across new territories and in Crimea.
        We also need to carry out sabotage in NATO countries, for example, at missile, tank, and aircraft factories, overpasses and tunnels (I’m talking about the English Channel again). soldier
        1. +1
          16 September 2023 21: 39
          By the way, Putin dealt with this professionally.

          When were you the director of a club in the GDR? And what information did he check? Especially during the turbulent period of perestroika?
      2. 0
        19 September 2023 21: 51
        Quote: Passing by
        because it is simply impossible to manually process such an array in real time (it is estimated that half a million images must be analyzed manually, each one sq. km, per minute!!!)

        Develop and train a neural network. What is the problem? It will process this entire array directly in real time. Just give her processors, video cards and RAM...
        1. +2
          20 September 2023 14: 31
          Quote: Plate
          What's the problem?

          Develop and train a neural network. That's exactly it. The AI ​​autopilot for a car can barely cope, although the objects there are standardized and finite, signs, markings, cars, pedestrians, that’s all the variety that needs to be run through the neural network. How can AI recognize all the infinite number of objects in the world that are located behind the road markings? Moreover, you need to qualify objects according to their affiliation and functionality. Like - this truck is carrying ammunition to the trenches, and this truck is carrying collective farmers to the fields, or in the spirit - this bush can hide a camouflaged position, because I would hide it there, because there are entrances and terrain, and it’s convenient to throw excess soil into the river , but there’s definitely nothing here, I can feel it in my gut. Such AI will definitely not be able to handle it for the next few decades, because it will have to run literally the entire world through a neural network.
  5. +29
    15 September 2023 05: 22
    It’s just that after the collapse of the USSR, our army turned from a military one into a decorative institution of the state and an organization for cutting money. This is an army not for war, but for parades, for stamping steps, rattling medals and writing beautiful reports to higher authorities. In it, shoulder straps are earned not based on merit, but based on the ability to remain silent and obey your superiors. Thank you to Comrade Stalin for the fact that, under the protection of his nuclear umbrella, we did not suffer the fate of Iraq and we have the opportunity, making titanic efforts, to somehow restrain the onslaught of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, which we have laughed and joked about all these years.
    PS I recently watched Rybar’s analysis, where he said that the Ukrainian group Marun suffered 867 losses in killed, wounded and missing in just a month of fighting, which, according to him, should indicate their great difficulties. But I remember the words Shoigu said on June 6, that is, on the third day of the counter-offensive, that our losses amounted to 71 killed and 210 wounded, that is, 281 total losses. In 3 days. And we need to make allowances for the fact that Rybar is a pro-Russian blogger and most likely his data on Ukrainians is inflated, while Shoigu’s data on Russians is most likely underestimated. And it’s ours who are sitting on the defensive, where they have the advantage. If I understand something wrong, please correct me.
    1. +14
      15 September 2023 06: 32
      To be fair, the army was going downhill long before the collapse of the USSR.
      1. +4
        16 September 2023 00: 27
        You can roll with a slope of 3 degrees and with a slope of 67 degrees
        1. +2
          16 September 2023 21: 41
          slope of 67 degrees

          75-80. These are the favorite numbers of Shoigu and K
  6. +23
    15 September 2023 05: 27
    As a result of the fact that the Russian Aerospace Forces do not have the material to destroy the air defense of Ukraine, they cannot dominate the air over the territories controlled by the Ukrainian Armed Forces, cannot isolate combat areas, cannot...

    What could be expected from supporters of a liberal (speculative) economy with production completely destroyed?
    Well done, Andrey from Chelyabinsk. There is no need to be embarrassed to say that everyone sees, but is embarrassed to become smarter than their bosses with subsequent personnel changes...
    * * *
    To fight by the standards of modern times is not to look at cartoons and not to puff out one’s cheeks.
    In light of what is happening, the phrase: “We haven’t started yet” sounds simply stupid...
    1. +3
      15 September 2023 14: 54
      What could one expect from supporters of liberal (speculative) economics?

      Where did you see this economy here? I also understand the USA - oh, this is the most militarized state in the world - but we have a state. sector in the economy as a percentage of the private sector will be more than Chinese. And the result? Look at UAC, which they are now trying to “sanitize” through VTB.
      Whichever instrument you choose, the effect will be the same. It's not a matter of liberality.
      1. +9
        15 September 2023 17: 59
        Quote: Plover
        It's not a matter of liberality.

        So how? Not only in her, but also in her, dear.
        Quote: Plover
        but, we have a state sector in the economy as a percentage of the private sector will be more than Chinese.

        You see, property in this case has no relation to liberality. The general economic model is important, and how many enterprises in it live with private property and how many - with state property, this is a tenth matter.
        Quote: Plover
        Look at UAC, which they are now trying to “sanitize” through VTB.

        You gave an excellent example, only USC, probably. mean. The state has adopted a public procurement policy in terms of state defense orders, which makes government contracts completely unprofitable in the long term. At the same time, the existing system completely destroys any possibility of improving production, say, mastering new technologies in order to reduce costs - they become categorically unprofitable. But you cannot avoid concluding a contract.
        Therefore, Putin’s appeal to the former head of USC: “Why did you conclude unprofitable contracts?” sounded like a mockery.
        1. +2
          16 September 2023 10: 44
          So how? Not only in her, but also in her, dear
          And why is the idea of ​​liberality in itself bad? It is no worse or better than conservatism. In general, if you look at history, much that is now considered conservative was once oh so liberal.
          You see, property in this case has no relation to liberality. The general economic model is important, and how many enterprises in it live with private property and how many - with state property, this is a tenth matter.

          I don't agree. The nature of property is like a derivative of a function. Seeing the derivative of 2x, we understand that the function is x^2. Liberalism, as a socio-political movement, cannot be realized under state ownership, because the state, no matter how liberal it is, cannot allow the realization of rights and freedoms in an organization to the same extent as the private one.
          only USC, probably. mean. The state has adopted such a public procurement policy

          Yes, of course, USC. This is just an example of why we have never had liberalism - state. ownership + non-liberal interaction processes = blatant inefficiency. Or an example from St. Petersburg. WHSD (Western High Speed ​​Diameter - Highway): state. the company took money from the government. bank and built a toll road (o_O). Some people see this as “capitalism-liberalism”. But in fact, there is none of this here, because in the conditions of liberalism, even the idea of ​​construction on the state. the money of the toll road would not pass.
          1. +3
            16 September 2023 21: 44
            And why is the idea of ​​liberality in itself bad?

            Absolutely agree. Nepotism, embezzlement and sycophancy can be put on stream in any system, ideology and religion
          2. 0
            17 September 2023 12: 57
            And why is the idea of ​​liberality in itself bad?

            In theory, all ideas are good, from feudalism to communism. They all describe how wonderful they are and how they should work in their pure form. But they don't work. All wonderful ideas are broken by the human factor, and the success of implementation in each state depends on how successfully the country’s leadership takes this factor into account and makes adjustments for it, and in the right direction, and not in its own direction. It may be that the most effective thing is to combine elements of different ideas in the right combination; fanaticism has always led to decline in the long run.
          3. +5
            17 September 2023 20: 35
            Quote: Plover
            And why is the idea of ​​liberality in itself bad?

            First of all, it is bad because... it does not exist. Simply put, liberalism is a mishmash of ideas that often contradict each other.
            Quote: Plover
            Liberalism, as a socio-political movement, cannot be realized under state ownership

            It can’t (in fact, it’s not true, but I won’t go too far into the wilds). But the whole question is that liberalism implies a market economy: and the types of market economies are like uncut dogs.
            Take, for example, the representative of classical liberalism, read by A. Smith, I. Bentham and B. Konstan. In the field of economics and public administration, he will profess the principle of laissez-faire (non-intervention), that is, the idea of ​​a "minimal state". Its essence is that the state should not interfere in the economy and that the “invisible hand of the market” itself will arrange everything for the better. Accordingly, the supporter of classical liberalism denies the need for state social guarantees: freedom is our everything, taxes are an encroachment by the state on our rights, and the common good will develop by itself as a result of individuals achieving their personal goals. Not that classical liberalism completely denies the role of the state, it is not anarchism, after all, but sees its role as very limited, mainly within the framework of ensuring the safety of its citizens.
            But the representative of the "new liberalism", based on the works of T.Kh. Green, L.T. Hobhouse, J. Dewey, J. Rawls, R. Dvorkin, and, in fact, D.M. Keynes, will argue with the "classic" to the point of blue in the face and prove the advantages of the concept of the "welfare state." In which it is the state that must assume the functions of protecting and developing the economic and social well-being of its citizens. That is, in the opinion of the “new liberal,” the same progressive income tax is not an encroachment on individual rights, but an unconditional benefit that will allow the redistribution of resources between very successful and less entrepreneurial citizens, and thus provide them with equal opportunities in the form of free medicine, education etc.
            So, the Russian economy is completely market and liberal. Alas, in the ugliest form of both.
            Quote: Plover
            Yes, of course, USC. This is just an example of why we have never had liberalism - state. ownership + non-liberal interaction processes = blatant inefficiency.

            I'll tell you one story. I then worked in a geological exploration company, at that time the largest in Russia and the second largest in the world. And this company was on the verge of bankruptcy in the 2008 crisis.
            Quite a market company, 0 government participation. The private owner decided that the best thing that could be done was reform according to Western patterns and hired one of the most successful managers. A foreigner, nothing in Russian. And he came to teach us life.
            But it quickly became clear that according to the customer’s requirements we are obliged to:
            1) Work on European seismic equipment;
            2) Provide European comfort and food for employees on shift (the requirements there were oh-wey)
            3) Ensure European labor productivity
            4) However, Russian contract prices were... About FOUR times lower than European ones.
            The guy left in less than a month. He simply did not understand how we managed to work in such conditions. I went to my native Italy to heal mental traumas :)))))
            Therefore, there is no need to talk about inefficiency. Many domestic enterprises live in conditions in which any of their foreign colleagues would simply lie down, lift their paws up and die.
            You are probably asking yourself now: what if our enterprise is so super-efficient, why aren’t we going to the West and conquering markets?
            The answer is very simple. All the talk about a market economy, free competition, etc. end exactly where the state borders of other states begin. Nobody lets us in there; that’s not why they’ve been tending their plots for decades.
            You see, the market is all great, of course. But it will work only when the state has formed the “rules of the game” for the market. This applies to the state’s monetary policy, as well as its internal economic policy and government procurement rules. In all three positions, Russia is a deafening failure, and even though all state assets can be completely transferred into private hands, there will be no sense.
            It is states, not the market, that set the rules of the game. There are countless examples of this. Let's say investments. Our loans are many times more expensive than abroad. It would seem that global capital should rush to us, flood us with money until there is so much of it that the supply is balanced at the world average level. Is this there? :)))))
            1. 0
              20 September 2023 16: 54
              First of all, it is bad because... it does not exist. Simply put, liberalism is a mishmash of ideas that often contradict each other.

              This can be said about any “concept”. And since it doesn’t exist, why write anything other than the fact that it’s fiction? Liberalism is not a hodgepodge of ideas, it is a set of specific principles that can be implemented in different ways. But is it normal to reject liberalism only on this basis? I repeat, nothing is “monolithic” and unchangeable. Physics “changes” regularly.
              But the whole question is that liberalism implies a market economy: and the types of market economies are like uncut dogs.

              What do you mean by "species"? We have two “poles” of economic life - deciding what, how and how much to produce: the absolute market and the absolute plan. Where and at what point can we say that this is no longer a market economy, but a planned economy? There is probably no universal criterion, since the scale always has many divisions (after all, even the USSR to some extent lived in the “world” market). You always need to look at a specific case
              well-read A. Smith

              a supporter of classical liberalism denies the need for state social guarantees: freedom is our everything, taxes are an encroachment by the state on our rights, and the common good will develop by itself as a result of individuals achieving their personal goals. It’s not that classical liberalism completely denies the role of the state, it is not anarchism after all, but it sees its role as very limited, mainly within the framework of ensuring the security of its citizens

              But the representative of the “new liberalism”, based on the works of T.H. Grina, L.T. Hobhouse, J. Dewey, J. Rawls, R. Dvorkin, and, in fact, D.M. Keynes, will argue with the “classic”

              There are no classical liberals in modern economics, just as there are no Marxist scientists in economics. Your “new liberals” have been like ungodly outdated “old stuff” for about 40 years. You constantly read the identity of liberalism and a market economy, which is not true. Modern economic theory operates with “institutions” and “transaction costs”. Alas, such ideas about liberalism and the market in our country are due to the fact that few people seriously follow the development of economic science. It is necessary for each specific case - a specific society in a certain period of its existence - to choose a place on the “scale” I described above. This is why I say that liberalism is not bad (and not good, by the way). He is. It can be useful in some amounts and harmful in others for different situations. It's good that you read Keynes. But without R. Coase, D. Buchanan - at least - it is no longer possible. Not even now, but already 30-40 years ago.
              I'll tell you a story

              I didn’t understand how your story was supposed to refute my statement that the combination of state. ownership and a minimum level of liberalism lead to inefficiency? What you described is an example of a mistake when differences in institutions are not taken into account. I have encountered this more than once in my work, when an international company in its Russian division wanted to supply an IT system that was deployed in European countries. But instead of “replication”, which was in Europe, there was full-fledged development in Russia. Because we were VERY different in processes, rules, laws. Even more than India. They also made a mistake, thinking that since there is one company (in your case, one industry), then everything should work the same everywhere. But institutional economics says that no, this will not happen.
              if our enterprise is so super-efficient, why aren’t we going to the West and conquering markets?
              Why did you decide that the enterprise is “super efficient”? You have considered only one type of cost - personnel. But there is also a lot of other “good”. And if we take into account all the transaction costs, it turns out that in general - alas - there is no super-efficient one. A certain number of years ago we looked at the example of tractor production here and in Canada, and the comparison was not in our favor. Because in addition to direct costs, there are also indirect ones, which also affect the final cost of the product/service: logistics, security, taxes, assistance/obstacles from the federal/regional authorities, etc., etc. And there is so much that at least somehow you can survive if you “save” on labor and personnel.
              The answer is very simple. All the talk about a market economy, free competition, etc. end exactly where the state borders of other states begin.

              Institutes. They are primary, and in what form they are present in life is not important. This is precisely the task of identifying them, understanding their action and influence, and making decisions based on this, and not on the basis of “ideas” (liberalism or conservatism). Because, if we start from ideas, then they will not “fight” with reality:
              Let's say investments. Our loans are many times more expensive than abroad. It would seem that global capital should rush to us, flood us with money until there is so much of it that the supply is balanced at the world average level. Is this there?

              This is not the case. Because again you are simplifying everything. Why do you think those who could (including companies with significant state participation) always received loans in the West (the answer was “cheaper”)? And in order to “be able”, you had to try so hard in terms of meeting the requirements of the “potential” borrower. What does this mean? And this means that “there” the rules for issuing are different, there are different requirements, and just “take it and come” to Russia, even if it were possible relatively simply (and this was very difficult due to the requirements of the state and laws), then find They wouldn’t have been able to get a “familiar” borrower. This means that they would include risks in the price and the price would be higher than that of local players (who “cook” in our soup and understand what and how). I saw one similar calculation - without unification of standards and laws, as is done between EU countries, European money in Russia was more expensive than Russian money. And this is WITHOUT taking into account such costs as the possibility of losing everything and the inability to return it, which, by the way, happened recently ;)
              1. +1
                21 September 2023 08: 59
                Quote: Plover
                Liberalism is not a hodgepodge of ideas, it is a set of specific principles that can be implemented in different ways.

                You see, if we reduce everything to certain principles, then these will be a commitment to a market economy without specifying its type. Just a market economy and that's it. And yes, there must be private ownership of the means of production, but its scale is not specified.
                Quote: Plover
                We have two “poles” of economic life - deciding what, how and how much to produce: the absolute market and the absolute plan. Where and at what point can we say that this is no longer a market economy, but a planned economy?

                Not at all. Apparently, by planned economy you meant centralized planning of production plans at a fixed price level. But in general, what’s interesting is that a planned economy may well be a market economy :)))
                No. The key differences of a market economy are freedom of enterprise, a variety of forms of ownership (private ownership of the means of production coexists with state ownership), free pricing and competition
                Quote: Plover
                What do you mean by "species"?

                For example, Professor Hall identifies 4 species in Western Europe alone:
                "four types of market economies: Scandinavian coordinated (represented in Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Finland), liberal market (Great Britain and Ireland), continental coordinated (Germany, the Netherlands, Austria, Belgium) and mixed market (Italy, Portugal, Spain). "
                Professor Bloom identifies three general types: liberal, dependent and coordinated. But, for example, Weber’s works mention more than 6 types of market economies :)))
                Quote: Plover
                You always need to look at a specific case

                Well, let’s take the Russian economy as an example, which, from the point of view of compliance, completely fits the definition of a market one.
                Quote: Plover
                I didn’t understand how your story was supposed to refute my statement that the combination of state. ownership and a minimum level of liberalism lead to inefficiency?

                Because in the Russian Federation the level of liberalism is just maximum :)))
                Quote: Plover
                Why did you decide that the enterprise is “super efficient”? You have considered only one type of cost - personnel. But there is also a lot of other “good”. And if we take into account all the transaction costs, it turns out that in general - alas - there is no super-efficient one.

                You didn't read my comment.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                But it quickly became clear that according to the customer’s requirements we are obliged to:
                1) Work on European seismic equipment;
                2) Provide European comfort and food for employees on shift (the requirements there were oh-wey)
                3) Ensure European labor productivity
                4) However, Russian contract prices were... About FOUR times lower than European ones.

                That is, we were required to work on European equipment (equality of investment costs), produce efficiency similar to European companies, but at a price four times lower than European ones. At the same time, the enterprise operated at a profit. If this is not super-efficiency, then I don’t know what is, because if we worked in the West, we would have had many hundreds of percent profitability
                Quote: Plover
                A certain number of years ago we looked at the example of tractor production here and in Canada, and the comparison was not in our favor. Because in addition to direct costs, there are also indirect ones, which also affect the final cost of the product/service: logistics, security, taxes, assistance/obstacles from the federal/regional authorities, etc., etc. And there is so much that at least somehow you can survive if you “save” on labor and personnel.

                I don’t know how you compared it (you can make a trillion mistakes with such a comparison, I see this regularly), but the point is that, according to the results of your comparison, the total cost of a tractor produced in the Russian Federation was higher than in Canada. What does this have to do with my example?
                Quote: Plover
                Institutes. They are primary, and in what form they are present in life is not important

                What does this have to do with institutions? :))) Once again, a market economy implies competition. The idea is that those who are able to satisfy the customer's needs at the lowest cost displace those who are less efficient. So the West at the state level puts obstacles to this very competition. And he does the right thing, by the way.
                Quote: Plover
                Why do you think those who could (including companies with significant state participation) always received loans in the West (the answer was “cheaper”)? And in order to “be able”, you had to try so hard in terms of meeting the requirements of the “potential” borrower. What does this mean?

                I'll tell you what this means :))) At the peak of the IPO, complete bankrupts climbed into it, to whom no one in the Russian Federation had given loans. This was their last chance to attract financing and somehow refinance. Which, quite often, it worked out :))))) Actually, that’s why the first crisis was so disgusting for us - after the collapse of the ruble, the cost of import loans increased exorbitantly, and from the last hope, the IPO turned into the last nail in the coffin.
                Quote: Plover
                And this means that “there” the rules for extradition are different, there are different requirements, and you can simply “take it and come” to Russia, even if it were possible relatively simply (and this was very difficult due to the requirements of the state and laws)

                This was not so difficult because foreigners were very willing to lend to domestic banks. But they were already lending to industry at exorbitant prices. Actually, this is what led to the banking crisis.
                Quote: Plover
                I saw one similar calculation - without unification of standards and laws, as is done between EU countries, European money in Russia was more expensive than Russian

                But in fact they turned out to be cheaper... only the banking system used them and got all the goodies.
                1. The comment was deleted.
                2. The comment was deleted.
                3. +1
                  22 September 2023 17: 45
                  Not at all. Apparently, by planned economy you meant centralized planning of production plans at a fixed price level. But in general, what’s interesting is that a planned economy may well be a market economy :)))
                  No. The key differences of a market economy are freedom of enterprise, a variety of forms of ownership (private ownership of the means of production coexists with state ownership), free pricing and competition

                  That's exactly what it is :)). But I am not precise in the wording - planned in the sense of directive. Let's start with the basics. Why do we need “economics” at all (regardless of “marketization”, etc.)? But we need such a “thing” to solve the problem of the discrepancy between two aspects of life: limited resources and limitless needs. That is, we need to somehow manage resources in order to satisfy our needs to the maximum. There is such a thing as basic questions of economics: what to produce? how to produce? for whom to produce? Now we (modern people) understand that there are two possible “poles” of an answer to this question: a free market (when only economic actors determine the structure of resource distribution) and a directive one (when actors do not decide at all). And there are countless positions between these poles.
                  Directive economics did not appear in the works of Marx in the form of a planned economy. Some tribe to which the shaman told the permitted number of deer for harvesting is also quite a directive economy. As a result of his analysis, Marx developed the idea of ​​directive economics, but did not take into account those factors that were not noticed/considered important in his time, and the Marxist concept of directive economics appeared. Regarding planning, there is more of it now than in the USSR. The key difference is not in the factors you listed - they are precisely the consequence - but in who makes the decision about how resources will be allocated. If this is a free market, then you need to somehow organize the “environment” (institutions) to resolve the issue. This is where freedom of enterprise, market pricing, competition, etc. come into being. But what is primary is that the decision is made by those who participate, and does not receive it from someone/something.
                  For example, Professor Hall identifies 4 species in Western Europe alone:
                  "four types of market economies: Scandinavian coordinated (represented in Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Finland), liberal market (Great Britain and Ireland), continental coordinated (Germany, the Netherlands, Austria, Belgium) and mixed market (Italy, Portugal, Spain). "
                  Professor Bloom identifies three general types: liberal, dependent and coordinated. But, for example, Weber’s works mention more than 6 types of market economies :)))

                  And if we highlight the factors due to which they were so divided? What will it be? :))
                  You didn't read my comment

                  I just read it. I wrote that you only took into account direct costs. But they did not take into account the indirect ones, which can radically increase the cost. For example, if you take two identical enterprises, but in one, in order to send products for export (not oil and gas, metal), you need to go through seven circles of hell before sending and then three more to return the export VAT. But the other one doesn’t. One needs to spend money on security and safety, while the other is content with the state. police services.
                  That is, we were required to work on European equipment (equality of investment costs), produce efficiency similar to European companies, but at a price four times lower than European ones. At the same time, the enterprise operated at a profit. If this is not super-efficiency, then I don’t know what is, because if we worked in the West, we would have had many hundreds of percent profitability

                  Did they just say “European”? Well, then this is “our” European. I have encountered such situations and it was always about specific technical requirements, and who can provide them is no longer important. The required level of yield of suitable products, the required level of service (so that repairs are not delayed), the required service life, etc.
                  “equality of investment costs” - there is no equality. Firstly, we need to supply equipment. Pay duties, clear customs. Train staff. Provide uninterrupted service. Capital costs are much higher than in some European country where there is none of this, or the costs are lower.
                  “produced efficiency similar to European companies” - the “sappers” (those involved in the implementation of SAP) have had this joke since the time of SPIC in the auto industry (Special Investment Contract that established localization requirements). One unnamed German company decided to produce one part in Russia. They found a certain plant that could produce it, installed some equipment, trained staff, and for the final part of the process, where the collection took place, they installed a super-cool device that used lasers to check the part for compliance with accuracy requirements and immediately either rejected it or accepted it - information went online to the information system. And after a short time, some kind of bullshit began: the metering device records suitable products. And from the assembly plant there is information about the defect. They thought it was a problem with the device - no, everything was calibrated. They thought the problem was that they were somehow deceiving, but no - they came to the plant, looked at it all day - everything was ok. We decided that there was some problem in SAP. But they invited not foreigners, but ours. And then - by chance - everything was revealed. It turns out that they really didn’t do everything very well, because by simplifying the process - as it seemed to them slightly and even correctly - they could dramatically increase productivity. And since the task came in less than they could have done, they simply began to work less. But, a certain number of reference parts were produced, which were passed through the “receiver”. Moreover, this quantity was such that the commission arriving at the end of the day would see everything done as it should. There was one tech there. an operation in which it was necessary to perform three (yes, three) measurements of something on a conveyor belt. Ours measured once. But as it turned out, the Germans calculated that due to movement, one measurement was not enough, and if measured three times, then the detection of defects decreased by n%. Therefore, your words about “efficiency similar to Europeans” can only be achieved by importing Europeans, fully automating production, or by radically investing in restructuring the original processes to take into account the “nuances” in the new place. And all these are costs and very considerable ones.
                4. 0
                  22 September 2023 17: 50
                  But it quickly became clear that according to the customer’s requirements we are obliged to:
                  1) Work on European seismic equipment;
                  2) Provide European comfort and food for employees on shift (the requirements there were oh-wey)
                  3) Ensure European labor productivity
                  4) However, Russian contract prices were... About FOUR times lower than European ones.

                  You are probably asking yourself now: what if our enterprise is so super-efficient, why aren’t we going to the West and conquering markets?

                  Points 1-3 are personnel costs. When such a level of costs is “standard” for the national economy of a country, this is reflected in the cost and price level. Therefore, point 4 turns out to be higher. Therefore, to prevent “conditionally slave” (in comparison with the “paradise” European) labor from coming to Europe, they use non-market mechanisms.
                  But again, your example is from geological exploration, i.e. service history. If you wanted to export a service, you would have to consider the realities of the service buyer. This obviously wouldn’t be Europe (where did you want to go to the West with geological exploration)? But in Africa or Asia or South America in the 2000s they clearly did not look at how workers worked.
                  I don’t know how you compared it (you can make a trillion mistakes with such a comparison, I see this regularly), but the point is that, according to the results of your comparison, the total cost of a tractor produced in the Russian Federation was higher than in Canada. What does this have to do with my example?

                  Search online for “Why the tractor plant will remain in Canada” by K. Babkin. I saw two more economic calculations on a similar topic - the organization of production in our country and the definition of competitiveness - everywhere the problem was in the “associated” costs, which destroyed the entire economy and more than covered the “savings” on wages. The relationship to the example is direct - to evaluate effectiveness, you need to take into account many more factors. And from the above example of tractors, you can see that in terms of wages in terms of “out-of-pocket payments” rather than total costs, not everything is so good either. Although, this is a debatable issue - even at that time this issue was the subject of most debate.
                  What does this have to do with institutions? :))) Once again, a market economy implies competition. The idea is that those who are able to satisfy the customer's needs at the lowest cost displace those who are less efficient. So the West at the state level puts obstacles to this very competition. And he’s doing the right thing, by the way.

                  That's just it with everything! It is the nature and quality of institutions that determine the effectiveness of a particular national economy. Competition, it also comes in different forms. Even from the textbook: oligopoly, monopolistic competition. Simply saying that “a market economy implies competition” is not enough.
                  “The idea is that those who are able to satisfy the customer’s needs at the lowest cost displace those who are less efficient.” Read about the “market for lemons” and information asymmetry. Your statement is based on an understanding of economics as it (understanding) was in the 19th and early 20th centuries. When a person participated in the economy as something “coldly rational” and effective. And exclusively maximizing “utility” was considered as a stimulus for action. But, as our economist Auzan correctly noted, in the time of A. Smith there was no political economy as a science. And Smith - being a philosopher - taught along with what shaped political economy, ethics and other areas of philosophy. And there the person was viewed from completely different angles. Only relatively recently (especially in Russia) from a historical perspective, with the development of the institutional approach, classical concepts were revised. Man is an opportunistic being, and the choice of actions is largely random and subject to external factors - the opposite of rationality. The main idea of ​​institutionalism in economics is the need to consider purely economic categories in conjunction with non-economic factors. An example of the failure of the classical approach is Russia. According to the classics, everything should have been good. But without taking into account non-economic factors, everything is stuck, because institutions decide. And this is not an example of the “collapse” of the concepts of liberal or market economics, but of the classical view of economics. It’s as if someone were designing a gas turbine using an “ideal gas” rather than calculation models that are close to reality.
                  I'll tell you what this means :))) At the peak of the IPO, complete bankrupts climbed into it, to whom no one in the Russian Federation had given loans. This was their last chance to attract financing and somehow refinance. Which, quite often, it worked out :))))) Actually, that’s why the first crisis was so disgusting for us - after the collapse of the ruble, the cost of import loans increased exorbitantly, and from the last hope, the IPO turned into the last nail in the coffin.

                  What does this have to do with IPO? Speaking about lending in the West, I meant Gazprom, Rosneft, Lukoil, all metalworking and mining enterprises. They borrowed not on the stock exchange through placement (more precisely, not so much), but through loans and bonds. Which then hit some of them in 2008 (Deripaska, in my opinion, still has not paid in full). These are not complete bankrupts. This is the “color and power” of our economy. And this whole “flower garden” received most of its money there - because, being exporters working in foreign markets, they were “qualified borrowers” ​​there as well.
                  The IPO that our companies did was not a means of development, but a way of monetizing property.
                  This was not so difficult because foreigners were very willing to lend to domestic banks. But they were already lending to industry at exorbitant prices

                  How does a bank differ from another borrower? To come “easy” I meant to open a branch of a bank that operates according to the standards of its country. In our country this was prohibited in principle. The second option is to open a Russian legal entity. faces - was used, but, firstly, the problems with the new legal environment do not go away, because you need to study the legal system of the new country (and keep in mind that we are still going through “shake-downs and shake-ups”, fluctuations in regulation, what can we say about “then”?) – invest in building parallel accounting (so that the parent company understands how things are in those categories in which it operates in traditional markets). But simply “pumping in money” will not work, since loans must either be given in foreign currency with all the additional risks (which were realized in 1998 and 2008), or in rubles (and take additional risks for devaluation) . Therefore, there is no need to wonder why no one came and “flooded” our super-profitable “soil” with rain from “cheap” money. High income and high risk are directly proportional, this has always been the case everywhere - hence the “cost” of money is high, no matter who decides to spend it: our private individuals, foreigners or the state. In the latter case, “cheap” loans would be paid at the market rate by all taxpayers
                  Actually, this is what led to the banking crisis.

                  Which one are you talking about? 1998? The state created a pyramid there. 2008? Exports collapsed there, which dragged everything else along with it, because at that time income from export taxes and customs duties had the largest share. All our crises were a reaction to events outside - due to the weakness of our economy
                  But in fact they turned out to be cheaper... only the banking system used them and got all the goodies

                  Not cheaper. In order for the price of money from a conventional bank in Germany and the same bank in Russia to be the same (provided that the costs of operating activities not related to the actual issuance of loans are the same), it is necessary that the borrowers be of the same “quality”. “Quality” is determined by the predictability of activity (conventionally, the probability that within 10 years of the loan the enterprise will not close, because the management there is crap, or the products are crap). If a fictitious bank in Germany knows that the fictitious client - a manufacturing enterprise - produces products according to DIN standards, its production processes are certified according to a bunch of ISO standards, according to GMP, that it operates in a country that has never taken away property, in which there have been no devaluations and that the EU market is open to this company (since DIN is part of EU standardization) - this is an understandable client. But some enterprise in Russia, which makes similar products, but according to GOST (which is not clear how they are checked and it is not clear by whom), maintains accounting according to RAS, and not IFRS, can only supply to Russia - it is not clear to them. And the cost of the loan for the first and second will vary greatly, since in the second all risks will be transferred to the borrower. Although in reality they both can make hammers of similar or even almost identical quality.
                  That is, even if foreign banks could remove all their risks not related to clients, clients in Russia would still not receive money at the same rate as in a European country. Our certification and compliance processes are unfortunately not the same as in the EU. Our legal system is not so well-established, and the law enforcement system... well, the fact that Russian entrepreneurs often prefer to sue each other in London and Paris speaks volumes. And these are just two factors
  7. +22
    15 September 2023 05: 27
    The main mistake is the reluctance to clean up the upper echelons of command, busy counting losses in their own pockets... And money is still being withdrawn in billions from Russia to this day... How to fight when there are so many holes both in the economy and in the General Staff..
    1. +21
      15 September 2023 07: 03
      The upper echelons of command have been appointed by the political leadership to carry out its instructions, who will clean them up?
    2. +6
      15 September 2023 12: 01
      Quote: Sergey Samkov
      .Yes, and money is being withdrawn in billions from Russia to this day..

      The leader of the Kremlin organized crime group himself gave the go-ahead.
      1. -2
        16 September 2023 00: 30
        You think so? How many classes (without corridor) did you complete?
  8. +1
    15 September 2023 05: 55
    Dear! Does anyone know whether the Su-24 and Su-34 fly at supersonic speed during combat missions or, despite the conduct of hostilities, the ban on supersonic flights over their territory continues to apply?
    After all, Sushka, flying at supersonic speed in terrain-following mode, is a very difficult target for air defense
    1. +11
      15 September 2023 07: 15
      Dear Amateur! Drying 24 with suspensions has limited supersonic capabilities at extremely low speeds. Piloting an airplane at Mach numbers around 1 is extremely dangerous, because the air flow is still of a transitional nature from subsonic to supersonic. And the range of 150-200 km is unlikely to please. As for Drying 34, it is even slower hi

    2. +1
      15 September 2023 09: 39
      Is the ban on supersonic flights over your territory still in effect?

      No, it doesn’t work, an acoustic boom is constantly heard over Krasnodar from switching to super sound. Sometimes they are very strong, I don’t know who flies.
      1. +1
        17 September 2023 01: 26
        And every time it's the same...
        The sound heard on the ground is not the sound of a transition to supersonic. It is the sound of an airplane already flying at supersonic. An observer on the ground hears the so-called Mach cone. A wave of disturbed air from an airplane flying at supersonic.
  9. +2
    15 September 2023 05: 57
    Thank you for the article, to summarize - Papuans cannot use the fashionable gadgets of the white gentleman (if they are given new “toys”, it will be in limited quantities), managers should not allow the technical development of the Papuans and any kind of independence, the number of Papuans is still large, the white gentlemen have no use so many natives.
  10. +9
    15 September 2023 06: 00
    The most important lesson we all must learn is our overconfidence. If we didn’t listen to all sorts of skobeevs, kedmi, priests and other so-called. experts - we would correctly assess our capabilities.
    1. +12
      15 September 2023 06: 40
      The Skabeevs do not say anything on their own, but follow the line indicated by the authorities. Our capabilities are such that the Russian Federation supplies the United States with rocket engines, with the help of which satellites are launched into orbit and provide target designation for Russian objects. The article is here on VO.

      https://vsluh.net/2668-rd-180-dvigatel-kotoryj-pomogaet-ssha-shpionit-za-rossiej.html
      1. +3
        15 September 2023 08: 20
        There is no need to worry, the last engines were shipped in 2021. It would be better to ask the question of who needs Russian aerospace technologies in the first place.

        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_V
        1. +1
          15 September 2023 10: 46
          That is, if these technologies were still needed for American spy satellites, would the Russian Federation consider it an honor? And the dominance of the American satellite constellation was achieved, among other things, with the help of Russian rocket engines delivered before 2021. And those who supplied knew where the engines would be used.
      2. +2
        15 September 2023 11: 41
        International cooperation and the supply of rocket space engines, in particular, made it possible to save Russian space from collapse, at least in its current state: number three in terms of launches in the world.
        1. 0
          15 September 2023 13: 33
          In order to survive, Russian space had to assist in the destruction of the cruiser Moscow, and aircraft and military personnel at Russian strategic aviation bases. But we are number 3!
          1. +1
            16 September 2023 00: 10
            Please do not forget that at that time these were our friends in the fight against terrorism, and the NATO logistics point was located in Ulyanovsk. Another time. Now the party's weather vane, of course, has turned powerfully.
        2. +2
          15 September 2023 13: 42
          Oh, how. And in the USSR the space program flourished, we are still flying using those developments. HOW IS THIS?
        3. -1
          15 September 2023 18: 45
          Quote: Jonny_Su
          International cooperation and the supply of rocket space engines, in particular, made it possible to save Russian space from collapse, at least in its current state: number three in terms of launches in the world.

          Aren't you tired of living in a sports coordinate system all the time?
          Are we ahead of the rest in ballet?
          Not tired?
          1. +1
            16 September 2023 00: 04
            This is simply a measure of scale and production capabilities. I think the machines would not have been cut, but for example, some developments would not have been brought to fruition without American revenue. Who would benefit from this? It would be worse for Russia. The Americans would have figured out how to get out, but they probably couldn’t launch anything to Mars.
      3. +2
        15 September 2023 23: 04
        The Americans have managed without our engines for decades, I think they would have come up with something, Musk and NASA have specialists from all over the planet working. Our state, of course, would not compensate Roscosmos for the disappearance of the buyer for ideological reasons. I think Roscosmos would be happy to launch Russian spy satellites with these engines, but somehow the Ministry of Defense is not very itching in this direction.
        But you also forgot that the Russian Federation supplies petroleum products to the Armed Forces of Ukraine and their owners, and also wants to supply ammonia, from which almost all explosives are made. And also uranium, titanium and much more.
    2. +5
      15 September 2023 09: 52
      Excuse me generously, but who listened to them? In fact, sane people had no illusions anyway. Unfortunately. And the fact that all this audience was shaking their hats... was a government order. Besides, when was it different? In 1904? In 1914? In 1939? In 1941? It's always the same. “With little blood, with a mighty blow”, “on his territory” and other propaganda forest noise.... If someone fell for this sound, sorry, “fell for it” - this is its complexity. It's good to go to the doctor...
    3. +4
      15 September 2023 20: 32
      The experts were different, many expressed reasonable opinions. But, alas, human nature is such that he believes what he wants to believe. This applies equally to both the president and the ordinary reader of VO. Everyone wanted to consider themselves invincible supermen, and the enemy - worthless fools.
  11. +8
    15 September 2023 06: 03
    The history of Russia is always an illustration of the famous saying about dancing on a rake...
    First, stupid and corrupt generals and other leaders lead the country into the swamp of strategic defeat, and then they frantically search for nuggets that can save the country from final defeat.
    And in the last 30 years, this is also a story of betrayal of the country’s national interests by the ruling elite
    You can stigmatize Stalin as much as you like, but everything was right in the country with patriotism and punishment of traitors. And therefore we have what we have
    1. -5
      15 September 2023 07: 41
      Quote: Zestrum
      First, stupid and corrupt generals and other leaders lead the country into the swamp of strategic defeat, and then they frantically search for nuggets that can save the country from final defeat.

      First NGSh KA Zhukov GK
      Quote: Zestrum
      leads the country into the swamp of strategic defeat,
      slept through the beginning of the war and then became
      Quote: Zestrum
      a nugget capable of saving the country from final defeat.

      Everything is as always - nothing new..

      Quote: Zestrum
      You can brand Stalin as much as you like, but with patriotism and punishment of traitors everything was right in the country
      - purely by chance - the NKVDeshnik did not finish his work, he cheated - it was a miracle that Rokosovsky and Korolev were not spanked. "Spies and enemies of the people"....
      No one knows how many real enemies were shot and how many people would have brought enormous benefit to the country.
      Bekauri began making its own drones more 100 (!!!!!!) years ago. Where would we have advanced 100 years later - if he had not suddenly turned out to be a “German spy”?
      1. +1
        15 September 2023 08: 06
        Bekauri began making his own drones more than 100 (!!!!!!) years ago. Where would we have advanced 100 years later - if he had not suddenly turned out to be a “German spy”?
        Well, he, of course, was not a German spy, but his “wave control boats” showed complete failure in 1943 in the Kerch Strait. A protege of Tukhachevsky, like Kurchevsky. But Tukhachevsky was precisely connected with the Nazis (see Schellenberg’s memoirs “Labyrinth”, published in Russian in 1990). At that time, good radio stations were needed on every tank and plane, and not expensive radio-controlled toys.
        1. +5
          15 September 2023 13: 42
          (see Schellenberg's memoirs "Labyrinth", published in Russian in 1990)

          Schellenberg's memoirs are another source of information. They claim, for example, that Mueller is a Soviet agent.
          ... The second in the ruling elite, which gravitates towards the Russians, turned out to be Muller. ... Today I see Stalin in a completely different light. He is immeasurably higher than the leaders of Western nations, and if power were in my hands, we would immediately agree with him on everything. This would have been such a blow to the West, saturated from top to bottom with pretense, from which they would never have recovered... he, in his rude Bavarian dialect, began to so vilify the decadent West and our leaders - Goering, Goebbels, Ribbentrop and Ley, that those My ears were probably burning at that time...
          It later became known that at the end of 1943, Müller established contacts with the Russian secret service.
          In 1945 he defected to the communists.

          And this is not one of the jokes about Stirlitz. This is from Schellenberg's memoirs.
          Walter Schellenberg "Hitler's Secret Service".
          1. 0
            15 September 2023 17: 55
            Walter Schellenberg "Hitler's Secret Service".
            He had time to write his memoirs, he sat and wrote.
            It later became known that at the end of 1943, Müller established contacts with the Russian secret service.
            In 1945 he defected to the communists.
            It's a pity that the communists never found out about this. "Labyrinth" was written in 1956, the same year Schellenberg died. When did he write about the communist - I don’t know Müller, and did he write it? But the Labyrith says it right. that the Nazis received information about Tukhachevsky’s opposition with a list of oppositionists. Schelenberg added to the list and, through Masaryk, sold it for cash in the USSR. He immediately noted with regret that he could not use the money, because the agents abandoned in the USSR immediately failed when paying with this money - the numbers were rewritten.
        2. 0
          15 September 2023 18: 49
          Quote: Aviator_
          Bekauri began making his own drones more than 100 (!!!!!!) years ago. Where would we have advanced 100 years later - if he had not suddenly turned out to be a “German spy”?
          Well, he, of course, was not a German spy, but his “wave control boats” showed complete failure in 1943 in the Kerch Strait. A protege of Tukhachevsky, like Kurchevsky. But Tukhachevsky was precisely connected with the Nazis (see Schellenberg’s memoirs “Labyrinth”, published in Russian in 1990). At that time, good radio stations were needed on every tank and plane, and not expensive radio-controlled toys.

          Is Khuzhenetych not connected with the American General Staff (Committee of Chiefs of Staff)? Has he never interacted with them?
          Or Gerasimov?
          Did they live their lives in Altai self-isolation?
          Haven't you seen white light?
          Don’t their children roam abroad 350 days a year?
          Don't have property there?
          Stop considering our military leaders pure and faithful.
          They... aren't... like...
      2. +3
        15 September 2023 08: 34
        Quote: your1970
        Bekauri began making its own drones more than 100 (!!!!!!) years ago.

        Forcing the country to invest in drones at a time when there were not even enough radio tubes for primitive radio stations, and they had never even heard of semiconductors and computers, is pure sabotage.
        Well, remove digital technologies from current drones - what remains? That's right, a body with a warhead and a motor. The Germans (much more technically advanced!) within a decade (and then progress was very good every year) were able to make a kamikaze drone capable of hitting only a target the size of a large city, specifically London. And the first computers were created a decade later in America. How, once upon a time, while studying English, I came across a text for translation from even at that time an antique technical magazine, which read “a modern computer consists of 10000 (perhaps the number is not entirely correct, I’m quoting from memory) electron tubes.” Well, what size drone does it need? And keep in mind that now it’s not just that phones and other children’s toys have orders of magnitude greater computing capabilities, but it’s not easy to make a drone control system out of a children’s toy.
        Perhaps the execution was too drastic a measure, but the times were such that wasteful waste of funds was not tolerated.
        1. +2
          15 September 2023 14: 01
          Well, what size drone does it need?


          During World War II, at the Radioplane Co. aircraft plant. Company employee Norma Doggerty, known as Marilyn Monroe, was busy assembling the Radioplane TDD-2/OQ-3 UAV for the American army, for which she was photographed by a photographer sent by Ronald Reagan, later known as President Reagan.
          1. +4
            15 September 2023 18: 00
            Quote from solar
            Radioplane TDD-2/OQ-3

            The first UAV ordered by the USA. Non-combat, for training anti-aircraft gun crews
            1. +3
              15 September 2023 23: 10
              At that time, combat troops were not needed; aviation was sufficient. However, the Germans have been mass-producing a glide bomb with a rocket accelerator and radio control, rather than a kamikaze UAV, since 1942. And no computers were needed for this.
              An 18-channel Strassburg receiver (FuG-230b) was installed in the instrument compartment, which demodulated signals and generated control commands for the elevator and aileron drives of the Hs 293 radio command line Kehl-Strassburg in the frequency range 48,2 - 49,9 MHz.

              In addition to radio control, there was also a flight stabilization system, everything was like in a UAV
              To ensure constant balancing of the bomb, the speed readings determined by the air pressure receiver (APR) are used in the elevator deflection control channel. To minimize rotational motion relative to the longitudinal axis, a gyroscopic device was additionally included in the aileron control channel, which made it possible to stabilize the bomb.

              The Germans also had classic UAVs, for example Argus_As_292 (it had a version for anti-aircraft gunners, and a version for reconnaissance, it could conduct aerial photography.
              The Japanese had similar developments.
              You don't need a computer for this.
          2. +1
            15 September 2023 22: 02
            Quote from solar
            Radioplane TDD-2/OQ-3

            A simple radio-controlled model used for training anti-aircraft gunners. The range is within line of sight. All feedback is the operator’s vision, so it’s not suitable for observation and reconnaissance, certainly not FPV. Probably, if you tried really hard, it could be adapted to hit visible targets, but a burst from a small-caliber cannon or a projectile from a larger caliber would do the same thing faster, more reliably, and cheaper. And what Bekauri offered were full-size planes and tanks with remote control. The idea is good, but on the wrong element base. In reality, drones have come into use already in this century.
            1. +1
              15 September 2023 23: 18
              The Germans had a similar Argus_As_292, even simpler in design. It could be used as a reconnaissance UAV and carried out aerial photography. The Japanese had developments in controlling aircraft and UAVs.
              In the States there was the TDN-1, an unmanned aircraft armed with torpedoes, tested on the Great Lakes. The more advanced American TDR-1 drone, also equipped with torpedoes, was tested in combat conditions in the Pacific Theater of Operations in 1944.
              I wrote that you don’t need a computer to create a UAV, as stated above.
      3. +7
        15 September 2023 08: 53
        Quote: your1970
        First NGSh KA Zhukov GK
        Quote: Zestrum
        leads the country into the swamp of strategic defeat,

        No need :)))) Sergey, you seem to be completely unfamiliar with pre-war history.
  12. -7
    15 September 2023 06: 03
    The army is a reflection of society and the state. No matter what anyone says, for me personally, our army is the best. No one will give us another army. I hope that the SVO will correct all the mistakes and shortcomings and throw out the “ceremonial walkers in medals.” In civilian life there are also plenty of the same, “steppers and show-offers.”
    1. +11
      15 September 2023 09: 56
      The army is a reflection of society and the state

      Who would argue...
      I hope that the SVO will correct all the mistakes and shortcomings and throw out the “ceremonial walkers in medals.”

      But here it is interesting. And why should she be scared to do this if she is “a reflection of society and the state”? First you need to understand these two components....
    2. +9
      15 September 2023 12: 07
      Society and State we are hanging out on the “vertical of power”, which is structurally designed to block feedback signals. That’s why we punish Strelkov, and not Shoigu and Gerasimov, because the main thing is not to upset the authorities.
      1. 0
        19 September 2023 22: 03
        Strelkov was not punished for a very long time. So long that he got to the point of personal insults... I think after that he was killed.
    3. +2
      15 September 2023 20: 37
      Quote: Andrey Nikolaevich
      No matter what anyone says, for me personally, our army is the best. No one will give us another army.

      A. I now understand that I have everything the best - the best apartment, the best clothes, the best job - no one will give anyone else.
      1. -1
        16 September 2023 04: 50
        Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
        A. I now understand that I have everything the best - the best apartment, the best clothes, the best job - no one will give anyone else.
        A purely dependent attitude to the question - “no one will give.” If you want better clothes, a car, an apartment - go buy it, tea is not from Soviet times, a record for many years on a work certificate from the "triangle" is not required. Oh no money? Don't they pay that much at work? Find another job, a better one. You can not? Then yes, “the best apartment, the best clothes, the best job” - of those that you can have, living the way you live.
  13. -20
    15 September 2023 06: 05
    If we recall the most recent and comparable military conflict, Desert Storm inevitably comes to mind, during which a coalition of multinational forces (MNF) defeated the Iraqi armed forces. Many parallels can be drawn here.

    And don’t we remember the fact that no one stood behind Iraq, and Ukraine is entirely under US control? Seriously, the facts and logic seem to be in order, but the whole article is nonsense. Ukrainian air defense, like the Ukrainian army, would have ended in a month, but in fact we are at war with the United States, albeit not directly.
    1. +27
      15 September 2023 06: 15
      Without any jingoistic cries, let's remember when the United States and its satellites entered the active phase? Was it not after the incomprehensible and frankly treacherous “stoppages of the offensive” in the first days of the Northern Military District, was it not after all the “shake hands and hugs” in Istanbul from the author of a new history textbook, was it not after the signing of papers on Sumy, Chernigov and the Kiev region, which we learned about a year later? with crying that we were fooled again????

      "Oh, who did this"???

      Characters like you at first screamed that time was working for Russia, chicken by the grain and other security nonsense, and now the Americans are to blame...

      “Oh, it’s not difficult to deceive me - I’m happy to deceive myself” ... although against the backdrop of the latest attacks EVEN by Armenians against the Russian Federation, the classic poems are becoming less and less suitable. And the phrase about one gullible simpleton for whom it is fate to be deceived becomes relevant here."
      1. -1
        15 September 2023 18: 31
        Quote: Nikolay310
        Was it not after the incomprehensible and frankly treacherous “stopping of the offensive” in the first days of the Northern Military District

        Initially, it was assumed that the Ukrainian Armed Forces would have little desire to die for US interests. Actually, this was not expected in the USA either. Everything else is a consequence.
        1. +6
          15 September 2023 20: 47
          Such assumptions need to be beaten with a candelabra.
          Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin "initially assumed that the Polish army would have little desire to die for the interests of the landowners and capitalists."
          Hitler and Co. "initially assumed that the Red Army would have no particular desire to die for the interests of the w%-Bolsheviks."
          If there is no mind-reading machine, then to be safe, you need to assume that the army that you attack at 5 in the morning without declaring war will defend itself, and not talk about geopolitics.
          1. -3
            15 September 2023 22: 23
            Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
            If there is no mind-reading machine, then to be safe, you need to assume that the army that you attack at 5 in the morning without declaring war will defend itself, and not talk about geopolitics.

            It is truth too. On the other hand, our leadership had the restraint not to try to restore order in Kyiv with one riot police regiment, as some suggest, and preparations were made for a possible war.
            1. +1
              16 September 2023 04: 57
              Quote: Dart2027
              On the other hand, our leadership had enough restraint not to try to restore order in Kyiv with one OMON regiment, as some suggest

              In 2014, this would have been the establishment of order at the request of the legitimate government, namely Yanukovych. But... they decided to limit themselves to Crimea, although there was a chance to support the people's republics from Odessa to Kharkov and Chernigov. We decided to limit ourselves to half-hearted support for the LDPR. The question "who is to blame?" certainly interesting, but there is no benefit from its solution to anyone, except for “moral satisfaction”, which is an intangible thing and cannot be measured objectively. But the question is “what to do?” We have to decide as information becomes available.
              1. 0
                16 September 2023 06: 27
                Quote: Nagan
                In 2014, this would have been the establishment of order at the request of the legitimate government, namely Yanukovych.

                But when Yanukovych did try to use the army, his orders were simply ignored. The question is - how would events develop if the Russian Armed Forces appeared then? In the same Crimea, the Ukrainian Armed Forces surrendered only because they were almost instantly blocked in their places of deployment. Was Russia ready for war?
        2. +1
          16 September 2023 02: 16
          Initially, it was assumed that the Ukrainian Armed Forces would have little desire to die for US interests.

          If you study the media of the Saloreich, since 14, then they carried out mobilization, which is the first sign that the war had already begun, and they pumped the population with non-news, again so that they would throw themselves in front of the bullets. According to military chronicles, by August 29, 14, the scale of the conflict exceeded the level of the 1st and 2nd Chechen wars, there were cauldrons in which tens of thousands of Ukrainian Armed Forces died, do you think that after this Bandera’s supporters will calm down and disperse?
          In fact, the elite intended to protect their yachts and castles in NATO countries, that’s what they assumed, but they didn’t care about the Russian Federation.
          1. 0
            16 September 2023 06: 28
            Quote: nickname7
            Do you think that after this Bandera will calm down and disperse

            Well, not everyone there can be called ideological.
    2. +17
      15 September 2023 08: 57
      Quote: Dart2027
      And don’t we remember the fact that no one stood behind Iraq, and Ukraine is entirely under US control?

      And how did this help the Ukrainian air defense?
      Quote: Dart2027
      Ukrainian air defense, like the Ukrainian army, would have ended in a month, but in fact we are at war with the United States, albeit not directly.

      That is, in your opinion, we carried out large-scale operations to suppress air defense, carried 100500 Ukrainian Armed Forces air defense systems upside down, but then the United States brought in a bunch of Patriots and so on, and now we can’t do anything?
      Do you even know how to think logically? If we had been able to suppress ground-based air defense, then we would have crushed it - be it Ukrainian or American, whose ground-based air defense has never shone, because they are accustomed to providing air defense for their troops with air supremacy.
      1. -3
        15 September 2023 18: 35
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Do you even know how to think logically? If we knew how to crush ground-based air defense, then we would crush it - be it Ukrainian or American, whose ground-based air defense has never shone

        I don’t remember how many times it was said here that all the work of their air defense is provided by NATO assets. Are you proposing to shoot down US planes and satellites? Without this, it will be impossible to completely suppress their air defense quickly.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        but then the USA imported a bunch of Patriots and so on

        And that too. They brought everything they could find to Ukraine.
        1. +5
          15 September 2023 20: 13
          Quote: Dart2027
          I don’t remember how many times it was said here that all the work of their air defense is provided by NATO assets.

          How? :))))) Well, explain how technically this happens. In all the chilling details.
          1. 0
            15 September 2023 20: 30
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Well, explain how technically this happens.

            Their surveillance equipment monitors the movements of our aircraft and transmits data to the Ukrainian Armed Forces.
            1. +3
              15 September 2023 22: 30
              Quote: Dart2027
              Their surveillance equipment monitors the movements of our aircraft and transmits data to the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

              What? :)))) Tell me, don’t bore me. Why do I have to almost get everything out of you with pincers?
              1. -1
                15 September 2023 22: 59
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                How?:))))

                Airplanes, UAVs, satellites, etc.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                neither in Iraq, nor in Yugoslavia, nor in Libya, etc. The US Air Force no longer suffered serious losses from enemy ground-based air defense systems

                Well, what kind of air defense systems there could cause serious damage to the US Air Force?
                1. +2
                  16 September 2023 07: 40
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  Airplanes, UAVs, satellites, etc.

                  That is, you don’t know. And if you don’t know, then why are you trying to argue?
                  The satellite does not detect the aircraft in flight, and those who can do this cannot quickly transmit information to the ground. UAVs can only detect aircraft at close range, since no American UAV is equipped with a powerful air-survey radar. Accordingly, AWACS remains.
                  Which simply has nowhere to go near the battle formations of the LPR and DPR. That is, AWACS can not shine everywhere and from very, very far away. Wherein:
                  AWACS and Ukrainian air defense systems are incompatible in terms of information exchange. According to AWACS, it is basically impossible to target Ukrainian missiles. Firstly, AWACS can only guide missiles with AGSN, which are not available in Ukraine. Secondly, we need a special data exchange protocol, which also does not exist.
                  Well, thirdly, AWACS is a noticeable thing, and when it works from afar, it is easily suppressed. EW.
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  Well, what kind of air defense systems there could cause serious damage to the US Air Force?

                  available. In the same desert storm, a S-75 was shot down by a Tomcat, a S-125 was shot down by an intruder
                  1. +1
                    16 September 2023 09: 02
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    The satellite does not detect the plane in flight

                    But it perfectly reports that they have taken off and where they are flying.
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    and those who can do this cannot quickly transmit information to the ground

                    Yes. And why did they launch thousands of communication satellites into space? If the task of monitoring aircraft is truly difficult to solve, then transmitting information is of no use.
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Which simply has nowhere to go near the battle formations of the LPR and DPR.

                    Where our aviation works quite well. You want raids to strategic depth.
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    AWACS and Ukrainian air defense systems are incompatible in terms of information exchange. According to AWACS, it is basically impossible to target Ukrainian missiles. Firstly, AWACS can only guide missiles with AGSN, which are not available in Ukraine. Secondly, we need a special data exchange protocol, which also does not exist.

                    Well, NATO is so stupid that in 8 years (at least) they didn’t realize that the systems needed to be combined. They were quite capable of directing the same Soviet-designed UAVs.
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    easily suppressed. EW.

                    Please tell me, what kind of electronic warfare of the Russian Armed Forces is capable of suppressing enemy radars in the Kyiv area?
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    In the same desert storm, a S-75 was shot down by a Tomcat, a S-125 was shot down by an intruder

                    And the Serbs and the C-125 shot down the F-117. But all these were special cases that became possible because the pilots set themselves up. After the downing in Yugoslavia, the NATO Air Force began to operate only from heights to which the Serbian air defense was simply lacking and that’s all.
                    1. 0
                      16 September 2023 12: 12
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      But it perfectly reports that they have taken off and where they are flying.

                      Doesn't detect or report. We learn materiel.
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      Yes. And why did they launch thousands of communication satellites into space? If the task of monitoring aircraft is truly difficult to solve, then transmitting information is of no use.

                      M-yes, how everything is started ...
                      Reconnaissance satellites carry out continuous scanning. The satellite is not able to understand what it sees; it simply and stupidly collects information. This information is then transmitted to the center, where it is analyzed and decrypted. There is a sea of ​​information to be analyzed there, and by the time the information is deciphered (not to mention transmitted somewhere else), the planes will not only return from a combat mission, but will also undergo post-flight maintenance.
                      During Desert Storm, the average availability of satellite intelligence data (from surveying the area to the control center) is 36 hours. Now, I heard, they have reduced it to 12 hours, but this is not certain.
                      And yes, today even terrorists often have information about the flight time of reconnaissance satellites.
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      Where our aviation works quite well.

                      Just like everywhere else - from your own airspace, without entering enemy territory
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      Well, NATO is so stupid that in 8 years (at least) they didn’t realize that the systems needed to be combined.

                      :))) I am disgusted by people who argue about air defense, but do not understand that the PARGSN SAM S-300 requires a special target illumination radar, which AWACS has never had and never will have.
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      They were quite capable of directing the same Soviet-designed UAVs.

                      So for you these are tasks of the same order?
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      Please tell me, what kind of electronic warfare of the Russian Armed Forces is capable of suppressing enemy radars in the Kyiv area?

                      Perhaps the same "Porubshchik", but I'm not sure - its performance characteristics are unknown to me. US electronic warfare aircraft are quite capable of doing this.
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      And the Serbs and the C-125 shot down the F-117. But all these were special cases that became possible because the pilots set themselves up.

                      Yeah. And the F-16 in Yugoslavia, the S-125 was also substituted. And the Predator in Syria. And F-15 with F-16 in Iraq...
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      After the downing in Yugoslavia, the NATO Air Force began to operate only from heights to which the Serbian air defense was simply lacking and that’s all.

                      hand face. Go learn the materiel, to what altitudes the C-125 can reach and at what altitudes combat aircraft fly
                      1. +1
                        16 September 2023 13: 15
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Doesn't detect or report. We learn materiel.
                        Where does it say that US spy satellites will be unable to see planes?
                        There is a sea of ​​information to be analyzed there, and by the time the information is deciphered (not to mention transmitted somewhere else), the planes will not only return from a combat mission, but will also undergo post-flight maintenance.
                        That is, you are saying that NATO does not know which of their satellites are currently transmitting information about our airfields and to find what they need they are digging through everything? Seriously?
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Just like everywhere else - from your own airspace, without entering enemy territory
                        Why, if everything works like that?
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        So for you these are tasks of the same order?
                        That is, we are still solving the issue of connecting systems.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        hand face. Go learn the materiel, to what altitudes the C-125 can reach and at what altitudes combat aircraft fly

                        Weapons that are exported always have lower performance characteristics compared to those that are used by our own.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And the Predator in Syria.
                        Firstly, this is not an airplane, but a UAV, and secondly, do you know who shot it down and with what?
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Yeah. And the F-16 in Yugoslavia, the S-125 was also substituted.
                        As with 117, there was an ambush at a point where the enemy was guaranteed to enter the range of the installation, which had been pre-installed in the right place.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        US electronic warfare aircraft are quite capable of doing this.
                        provided that they know exactly where the enemy station is located. It’s true that it’s easier to launch a rocket then.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        but they don’t understand that the PARGSN S-300 missile system requires a special target illumination radar, which AWACS has never had and never will have
                        I don’t remember how many times it was explained to “experts” that the missile is directed according to coordinates received from NATO, and the radar of the installation itself turns on for a few seconds to fix the target for the missile and immediately turns off. By the way, in Yugoslavia there was something similar - they simply knew where and when enemy planes would fly and the guidance systems worked literally for 20 seconds.
                      2. +1
                        17 September 2023 16: 15
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Where does it say that US spy satellites will be unable to see planes?

                        “Have you been to Berlin? No? Just imagine a certificate that you haven’t been to Berlin” (c)
                        No, dear man, they prove what exists. You claim that aviation can be controlled from a satellite, and you have to prove this.
                        However...Google FlightAware or Flightradar24 The only way to control aircraft flights in real time today. According to data transmitted by the planes themselves :))))))
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        That is, you are saying that NATO does not know which of their satellites are currently transmitting information about our airfields and to find what they need they are digging through everything? Seriously?

                        Do you think airfields are under constant surveillance? :))))))) Kindergarten, Christmas tree group.
                        In short, before you argue, you first at least study in general terms how satellite reconnaissance works. What can low-orbit satellites do, what can geostationary satellites do?
                        You are now simply displaying blatant, phenomenal ignorance. According to you, the satellite is sitting like this, in space, and this one is watching over a specific airfield :)))))))))
          2. +1
            16 September 2023 10: 24
            Andrey, do you really not realize the fact that when our large military aircraft, such as bombers, just take off, the enemy almost immediately finds out about it thanks to NATO funds? In detail: where they took off from and in what direction. To a lesser extent, this applies to fighters that are capable of flying low to the target, but even when approaching the front line they are detected quite early. And if traitors live near our airfields, then the enemy is notified of each flight immediately. Thanks to all this, the enemy has time to prepare and meet our birds if they fly too far. NATO gradually saturated the front line and the largest front-line cities, in which most of the Ukrainian Armed Forces + Kyiv are based, with radars and air defense systems. Not to mention MANPADS, of which there were thousands, if not tens of thousands, in Ukraine from the very beginning of the Northern Military District. In order to successfully knock out air defense, as you put it, you need, firstly, to have better reconnaissance than the enemy, more advanced reconnaissance drones and their number, a larger number of satellite flights over the front line in order to have a more frequently updated picture than the enemy , secondly, to have longer-range and more accurate means of destruction than the enemy, in order to overload and hit the enemy’s air defense from a safe distance. If with the second we are even more or less equal, then with the first (intelligence) we are very much inferior. And this is one of the main advantages of the Ukrainian Armed Forces only thanks to NATO. Moreover, NATO reconnaissance assets (drones, Avaks, rippers), using their immunity, fly where they could easily be shot down by ours if they were Ukrainian vehicles. And an absolutely absurd situation has been created that everyone understands that these avaxes and drones are working for the Armed Forces of Ukraine to defeat our Army, and we cannot do anything about it. So, comparing the Northern Military District, when NATO helps the enemy with everything it can, with the US invasion of Iraq, which no one helped, is absolutely incorrect.
            1. +1
              16 September 2023 12: 15
              Quote: Dron_sk
              Andrey, do you really not realize the fact that when our large military aircraft, such as bombers, just take off, the enemy almost immediately finds out about it thanks to NATO funds?

              Sorry, but:
              1) Non-science fiction on another site
              2) The presence of the means I described (electronic warfare aircraft) resolves the issue of AWACS, in cases where they are used
              1. 0
                17 September 2023 08: 30
                Non-science fiction is your entire article. You do not want to accept the fact that, firstly, the Russian Armed Forces did not have the ability to control the entire territory of Ukraine, and despite all the bravura speeches that all deliveries of Western weapons would be legitimate targets, Russia was unable to stop these deliveries. As a result, these supplies grew and grew, from a trickle to a river. And the Ukrainian Armed Forces received all the Soviet air defense systems and Soviet military aircraft that the countries of Eastern Europe had. In addition, they were given NATO air defense systems: Patriots, Cheetahs, IRIS-T and others. Plus thousands of MANPADS. Plus, radar systems in the regions of Romania and Poland bordering Ukraine are absolutely working in the interests of the Ukrainian Armed Forces. Little by little, they built a normal air defense system out of this hodgepodge and created large flight ban areas for our aviation. If from the very beginning of the Northern Military District our military aircraft flew over 60% of Ukraine, now even over the Russian-controlled part of the DPR, LPR, Kharkov region and Zaporozhye our birds no longer fly everywhere. Indicative in this regard is the case when several months ago, in one day, the Ukrainian Armed Forces, with the assistance of NATO, shot down 3 of our landers and 2 helicopters over the Bryansk region in the border area with Ukraine.
                In order to control the sky over Ukraine, it was necessary initially to carry out more active and massive actions on the ground, as the United States acted in Iraq, and not drag their feet, giving the enemy time to strengthen and mobilize, but to take control of all of Ukraine east of the Dnieper, encircle and isolate the Slavic - Kramatorsk, Avdeevka and Kharkov enemy groups, to stop any possible supplies of weapons and ammunition to these groups. Only this required a 500 thousand group, and not the 120 thousand that were brought into Ukraine at the start of the Northern Military District.
                In the form and number in which the General Staff of the RF Armed Forces began the SVO, it was initially clear to me personally that over time NATO would inevitably saturate itself with weapons and mobilize the Ukrainians, and they would eventually fight back.
                1. 0
                  17 September 2023 16: 00
                  Quote: Dron_sk
                  If from the very beginning of the Northern Military District our military aviation flew over 60% of Ukraine

                  As I already said - fantasy on another site. In our reality, the VKS TRIED to operate over the territory of Ukraine, suffered heavy losses, and stopped this practice in March 2022. The Ukrainian Armed Forces received their first air defense systems in October.
                  Quote: Dron_sk
                  Plus, radar systems in the regions of Romania and Poland bordering Ukraine are absolutely working in the interests of the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

                  I see that you have not only history, but also an alternative geography. Dear man, take a world map and calculate the distance from Poland or Romania to the LPR and DPR
                  1. 0
                    18 September 2023 04: 33
                    Not only do you write one-sided articles, but you absolutely do not know how to conduct a dialogue and hear your opponent, dismissing any criticism and not knowing how to admit your mistakes. We are basically talking about the same thing, but the conclusions are different. You accuse our Aerospace Forces of not having the material ability to suppress enemy air defenses. I’m trying to explain to you that without active and more massive combat operations on the ground, it was impossible to do this without losing 100+ aircraft. There were attempts to achieve air supremacy, but they were not massive and, fearing the first losses, they quickly stopped. And after NATO has filled Ukraine with air defense systems, now such attempts will lead to even more massive losses of aircraft. We have worse reconnaissance means, so in order to suppress enemy air defenses, our only option is to carry this out in conjunction with more active actions on the ground, nothing else. But this does not mean that our Aerospace Forces are completely hopeless in suppressing enemy air defense, but it means that there is a war going on between approximately equal rivals. And the enemy will absolutely not have enough of a few dozen F-16s to suppress our air defense, but will need hundreds, and they will also need to conduct more active ground operations in parallel.
                    You, like many of the authors here at VO, for some reason look at the problem from only one angle and strive to find the cause of failures in one area. When it is obvious that the problem needs to be looked at from different angles and solved with comprehensive measures. That's all! Good luck!
                    1. 0
                      18 September 2023 12: 39
                      Quote: Dron_sk
                      We are basically talking about the same thing, but the conclusions are different.

                      It seems so to you. In fact, we are talking about completely different things.
                      Here it is
                      Quote: Dron_sk
                      Andrey, do you really not realize the fact that when our large military aircraft, such as bombers, just take off, the enemy almost immediately finds out about it thanks to NATO funds?

                      incorrect from the word "absolutely". Your explanations of the survivability of Ukrainian air defense are also incorrect. That is, you initially see the picture of the war in the air completely different from what it really is. You are mistaken both in information support (NATO helps, but it is far from comprehensive), and in your espionage passions
                      Quote: Dron_sk
                      And if traitors live near our airfields, then the enemy is notified of each flight immediately. Thanks to all this, the enemy has time to prepare and meet our birds

                      It’s scary to even imagine how a person on the ground can know where the plane he’s watching take off will fly. Myelophone, no less.
                      You are drawing a completely incorrect conclusion from absolutely incorrect premises.
                      Quote: Dron_sk
                      In order to control the skies over Ukraine, it was necessary to initially conduct more active and massive actions on the ground, as the United States acted in Iraq

                      The Americans acted exactly right - ZERO actions on the ground while the Air Force was working, and when the Air Force finished its work and destroyed Saddam’s ground forces, only then did the American divisions go forward, finishing off what was left.
                      1. 0
                        28 September 2023 18: 21
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        It seems so to you. In fact, we are talking about completely different things.

                        Seems? It really only SEEMS to you that the US invasion of Iraq can be compared with the Northern Military District. Just compare the civilian casualties: how many Iraqi civilians died from US actions in Iraq, and how many civilians died during the SVO. Maybe you will finally understand the fundamental difference. Even according to Wikipedia, whose Russian-language articles are written exclusively by people with a pro-Western point of view, civilian casualties in Iraq ranged from 116 to 000 dead. Considering that this is a pro-Western point of view, we can safely say that at least 1 million civilians died in Iraq from the actions of the Americans. The Americans started right off the bat with powerful bombings, with minimal risk of losing planes, since the Iraqis had tens if not hundreds of times less MANPADS than the Ukrainian Armed Forces. And the Americans, without hesitation, bombed all targets that their intelligence considered even remotely resembling military targets, and even if these targets were in close proximity to civilian targets filled with civilians...
                        PS all the terrorist organizations of the world taken together have not killed as many civilians as civilians have died from the actions of the US Army, which calls itself nothing less than “the main fighter against world terrorism”...
          3. +1
            23 September 2023 21: 10
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            How? :))))) Well, explain how technically this happens. In all the chilling details.


            Method 1. There is information that SBIRS satellites (missile warning satellites with infrared sensors) in a highly elliptical orbit (HEO) can detect and track low-flying aircraft (by engine plume), the aircraft is detected and tracked, then the information is transmitted to Khokhlo- SAM, i.e. The air defense system provides information at what time, from what direction and at what speed the air target will appear,
            The air defense system turns on its detection radar, etc. at the right time.
            Method 2. Two RTR aircraft (one from the Baltic side and the other from Romania) can determine the trajectory of the aircraft (over Ukraine) with a working radar, where each RTR aircraft determines the direction to the source of radiation (the operating radar of the aircraft over Ukraine) and in these two directions are determined coordinates, with a certain accuracy of course, but this accuracy is enough to give target designation to the air defense system. For Method 2, of course, there is a range limitation.
            Method 3. A combination of RTR satellites and SBIRS satellites, where the SBIRS satellite detects an aircraft by the engine plume, and then the RTR satellite examines the desired area in more detail (the RTR satellite switches to the detailed survey mode of the desired area, in the detailed survey mode the resolution is less than one meter) and information transmitted to the air defense missile system.
        2. +1
          15 September 2023 20: 50
          If that were the case, we wouldn't be talking here now.
    3. +9
      15 September 2023 09: 25
      Quote: Dart2027
      And don’t we remember the fact that no one stood behind Iraq, and Ukraine is entirely under US control? Seriously, the facts and logic seem to be in order, but the whole article is nonsense.

      So let's imagine if the United States attacked Ukraine, for example! So the result would be approximately the same as in Iraq. Planting weapons from outside would simply not be allowed - they would disrupt communications and threaten those who wanted it so that the desire would disappear. And finita la comedy.
      1. +2
        15 September 2023 13: 32
        They wouldn’t even have time to throw a weapon. There would have been a parade in Kyiv in the first month and the suppression of the rebels.
      2. 0
        15 September 2023 18: 36
        Quote: Stas157
        Planting weapons from outside would simply not be allowed - they would disrupt communications and threaten those who wanted it so that the desire would disappear.

        Are you proposing to fight directly with NATO?
        Let's remember Afghanistan - how many weapons did the Taliban receive and what could the USSR do about it? The answer is a lot and could not do anything.
    4. +6
      15 September 2023 13: 30
      In the middle of summer last year, VSU wrote that the shells were running out and there was simply nothing to shoot with.
      For one shot of theirs, there were dozens of ours.

      And this has already been 4 months of SVO. If we couldn’t do anything without help, it’s purely our fault.
  14. +13
    15 September 2023 06: 12
    And until recently, our Aerospace Forces was headed by a graduate of the Omsk General Military School... I’m not saying that it’s just this character with “difficult decisions”, but someone put essentially an infantryman in command of the pilots...

    Armageddon for our VKS came not because of Surovikin, but because of crazy Russian capitalism... when ghoul yachts are more important than modern AWACS
    1. -3
      15 September 2023 07: 44
      Quote: Nikolay310
      and", but someone essentially put an infantryman in command of the pilots...

      L.P. Beria led the authorities and the nuclear project, being a builder by training. And such examples - a carriage ...
      1. +6
        15 September 2023 09: 58
        So even now the builder rules our armed forces, why are you dissatisfied?
      2. 0
        15 September 2023 20: 54
        So the Manhattan project was also led by Colonel Groves of the engineering forces, in fact - the same builder, only a military man. Builders are good for such things.
        1. +2
          15 September 2023 23: 41
          While leading the project, Groves was given the rank of brigadier general, and later lieutenant general, and retroactively.
          He studied at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, one of the most prestigious engineering schools in the world, and perhaps the most prestigious, and at West Point. This is not exactly a construction college.
          Oppenheimer, by the way, was an astrophysicist and studied stars and all sorts of black holes.
          Both of them were primarily administrators.
    2. -2
      15 September 2023 14: 26
      By the way, according to AWACS, in addition to the A-50 and A-100 based on the Il-76, you can use the turboprop Il-114
      The Il-114 is already being fitted for a PLO aircraft to replace the Il-38N
      1. +4
        15 September 2023 18: 52
        Quote: Romario_Argo
        By the way, according to AWACS, in addition to the A-50 and A-100 based on the Il-76, you can use the turboprop Il-114
        The Il-114 is already being fitted for a PLO aircraft to replace the Il-38N

        How many times have you destroyed the 6th US fleet with Moscow alone?
        Stop writing already, everything you write is completely unrealistic.
        1. 0
          18 September 2023 10: 36
          in fact, almost everything from my writings comes true, to some extent
          By the way, according to the built-in remote sensing for the roof of the tank turret, outlines of the T-80BVM are already flashing
    3. +4
      15 September 2023 14: 58
      Capitalism in our country has almost the same name. Under-socialist socio-economic relations in Russia were transformed into under-socialist-feudal relations.
  15. +20
    15 September 2023 06: 19
    In fact, it turned out that apart from “Soviet galoshes”, there was nothing special to fight with. The T-80 tank is being launched into production. Will there be a cartoon about this in the upcoming presidential elections?
  16. +12
    15 September 2023 06: 22
    The details can be discussed, but in general..... even sadder. Organization of the database at a near zero level. It seems that only “thunder” and “fried” have any influence on the leadership of the Moscow Region. In the schools, the departments of tactics hammered into the cadets’ heads these, God knows how complex, fundamentals of military affairs. In general, as always, “Personnel decide everything!”
    1. +7
      15 September 2023 08: 58
      Quote: vinschu
      The details can be discussed

      I will be happy to hear constructive comments. hi
  17. +14
    15 September 2023 06: 25
    The questions that I raise in this article should be addressed to much higher authorities and personalities: those who determined the appearance of the modern aerospace forces of the Russian Federation and formed state weapons programs in accordance with this appearance. Yes, these personalities and authorities don’t care about these questions, their “dreams have come true” and don’t care about anything else, especially any questions.
  18. +2
    15 September 2023 06: 37
    Quote: Andrey Nikolaevich
    I hope that SVO will correct all the errors and shortcomings

    Well, there seems to be no progress in this direction yet, unfortunately. But really, a lot could be improved, but the goals of those who “stirred the mess” are different!
  19. +3
    15 September 2023 06: 41
    Quote: Amateur
    After all, Sushka, flying at supersonic speed in terrain-following mode, is a very difficult target for air defense

    This is apparently another analogue from TK Zvezda? laughing (no such option)
    1. +1
      15 September 2023 07: 17
      The Su-24M seems to have this capability. Maximum speed at an altitude of 200 m - 1320 km/h
      1. 0
        19 September 2023 22: 15
        At supersonic speeds, even unmanned vehicles cannot go around the terrain.
  20. +15
    15 September 2023 06: 42
    The article is definitely a plus. Everything is factual. Only one thing is puzzling - why, having before our eyes examples of successful operations, the opportunity to study this for decades, the opportunity to develop and practice the use of equipment, analogues of reconnaissance aircraft and jammers from the enemy - nothing was done? It feels like our everything is tank columns. The first call was in Georgia. And... nothing has changed.
    1. +9
      15 September 2023 12: 17
      Confusing

      No, everything is absolutely predictable. The “management” thinks that it controls something, although its instructions are sabotaged by regularly supplying spirit-lifting fakes, and the performers line their pockets in the hope of leaving in time.
      The finale was visible in 2014, then the gurney moved according to the doctor’s instructions...
    2. +3
      15 September 2023 13: 36
      Showing off and corruption. On papers and on TV everything is clean and beautiful... but we ourselves see the reality. And this is if you start digging everywhere.
  21. +5
    15 September 2023 06: 49
    Quote from Oberon 36
    The first call was in Georgia. And... nothing has changed.

    Because the appearance of sovereignty has been created, with beautiful chatter and external control!
  22. +6
    15 September 2023 06: 51
    In addition to the reconnaissance itself, there is an acute problem of quickly communicating the results of this very reconnaissance, i.e. communications. And also the artificial inhibition of completion by “approvals”.
  23. +11
    15 September 2023 06: 54
    failed to defeat the main forces of the Ukrainian Armed Forces

    There is a feeling that this was not the original purpose of the invasion. Nor is the goal now the lightning defeat of the Ukrovermacht. The real goals are completely different, and no one is going to voice them.
    1. +2
      15 September 2023 13: 38
      Real goals. Whatever will come of it will work out. Plans and goals arise from the situation and moment.
      This is clearly visible from the official statements.
  24. -1
    15 September 2023 06: 56
    The Americans achieved rapid success during the ground phase of Operation Desert Storm precisely because by the time it began, the combat vehicle of the Iraqi ground forces was irreparably broken

    They achieved quick success in a completely different way - by simply buying the military leadership of Iraq. Hence the consequences.
    1. +1
      15 September 2023 07: 33
      simply buying the military leadership of Iraq

      Let me correct you, we bought generals for the second company in 2003.
      1. +1
        15 September 2023 11: 29
        Yes, the first one also had a lot of strange things. Why, say, Saddam sat on his butt for half a year while the coalition brought troops and equipment to the SA, without even twitching to somehow prevent this? Was it obvious what was happening?
    2. +6
      15 September 2023 13: 39
      Was someone stopping us from buying? There was no money?
      1. +1
        21 September 2023 07: 34
        Quote from Narrator
        Was someone stopping us from buying? There was no money?

        There was money, but it was given to the wrong people, and most of it, as usual, was stolen.
    3. +4
      15 September 2023 20: 58
      If I became the new president or at least the minister of defense, I would gather all the generals and colonels in one place and order them to write a short essay about the war in Iraq in an hour. And everyone who mentioned the donkey loaded with gold was fired on the same day without severance pay.
      1. +6
        15 September 2023 23: 47
        I would gather all the generals and colonels in one place and order them to write a short essay in an hour

        To begin with, it would take an hour to explain what an essay is and how it differs from a report.
        In the army, responsibilities are strictly distributed. All up to senior lieutenant
        inclusive must be able to work independently. The captain must be able to organize work. The major must know where everything is being done. A lieutenant colonel must be able to report what is being done where. The colonel must be able to independently find the place in the papers where he is supposed to sign. The general must be able to independently sign where he is shown.
  25. -2
    15 September 2023 06: 57
    in 10 years of war against half of Vietnam, the United States and its allies lost just under 10,000 planes and helicopters. That is more than 950 per year. Israel in 1973 lost 50-60 aircraft in a few weeks...
    and all this is Soviet air defense. A S-300, "Buki", "Wasps" in Ukraine, too.
    1. +13
      15 September 2023 09: 03
      Quote: El Roz
      in 10 years of war against half of Vietnam, the United States and its allies lost just under 10,000 planes and helicopters. That is more than 950 per year

      I won’t argue about the numbers, but the fact is that it was Vietnam that became for the Americans a school for fighting ground-based air defense. The Yankees learned their lessons very well. That is why after Vietnam, neither in Iraq, nor in Yugoslavia, nor in Libya, etc. The US Air Force no longer suffered serious losses from enemy ground-based air defense systems
  26. +4
    15 September 2023 06: 59
    Excellent, competent and understandable article, in my understanding, you need to rely on space reconnaissance, communications and command and control! I heard the teams are being removed. VKS!
  27. +5
    15 September 2023 07: 02
    There is no one to ensure their work, because there are practically no modern reconnaissance/AWACS/EW systems in service.

    I think this is not the question. And in the general crisis of modern weapons. It lies in a simple thing - modern technology has become so expensive and difficult to replace that the loss of a dozen aircraft becomes a national tragedy. If in the Second World War exchanging an air regiment for a strategic bridge was quite an acceptable price, now it is impossible to even imagine. With all the ensuing consequences of use. It’s like battleships in WWII - they were simply fiercely afraid to put them into battle, saving them at bases.
    1. +2
      15 September 2023 08: 21
      Quote: paul3390
      And in the general crisis of modern weapons. Consisting in a simple thing - modern technology has become so expensive and difficult to replace

      This problem cannot be solved in principle - people are already “women” NOT give birth," and mass-produced cheap drones will simply lead to the need to attack nuclear weapons control and decision-making centers.
      It is a CRISIS and WEAPONS DEADLOCK- for example, I don’t see a way out of it
  28. +21
    15 September 2023 07: 07
    The author analyzes based on the wrong premise - the SVO was initially planned as a police operation to change a pro-Western regime to a loyal one, and not as a blitzkrieg, this can be seen from the number of forces involved. +- 200 thousand, of which a considerable part of the Russian Guard, for a country like Ukraine is nothing. That is why, when our troops were already near Kiev, in their rear Zelensky calmly mobilized into the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Apparently something similar was planned Crimea, so to speak Crimea -2. Apparently the calculation was made by some part of the pro-Russian Ukrainian elite that, as a result of its actions or inaction, the Armed Forces of Ukraine would not show serious resistance, except perhaps the national battalions, and Zelensky and his company, scared, would run away, and the population would greet the columns of Russian troops with flowers. Some who, apparently, supplied information pleasant to the ears of the authorities. Oh, it was not for nothing that Naryshkin was nervous and shaking at the meeting, not for nothing..
    1. +5
      15 September 2023 11: 38
      Quote: Quiet Don
      The author analyzes based on the wrong premise - the SVO was originally planned as police операция

      So, in case of failure, there must be a plan B - military operation (that’s what it’s called, by the way).
      1. 0
        16 September 2023 04: 45
        Please tell me which one
        Quote: Stas157
        Quote: Quiet Don
        The author analyzes based on the wrong premise - the SVO was originally planned as police операция

        So, in case of failure, there must be a plan B - military operation (that’s what it’s called, by the way).

        And please tell me what plan B Hitler had when attacking the USSR if the blitzkrieg failed? I haven’t heard of this. Usually Plan B is a situational response, which is what we are now seeing in the Northern Military District.
        1. +3
          17 September 2023 15: 44
          Quote: Quiet Don
          And please tell me what plan B Hitler had when attacking the USSR if the blitzkrieg failed?

          But Hitler didn’t need any Plan B. His Barbarossa was precisely a military operation by all German forces, aimed at achieving a decisive result - the destruction of the Red Army, the capture of the capital and the surrender of the USSR. That is, the Fuhrer played big, investing the entire Wehrmacht in the blow. Limit of escalation.
          If we assume that the SVO was initially planned precisely as a police operation, then it turned out that we did not do this, which means we had to think about a real war if the police did not work
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. +4
      15 September 2023 12: 59
      Moreover, the generals were eager to attend the parade on Khreshchatyk and failed in Kharkov, Sumy and Chernigov (Lapin managed to reward his son for the capture of the region). And only the club-headed Surovikin, in a good sense of the word, took Kherson and ensured the encirclement of Mariupol with the breaking of the front in Berdyansk. And the results of this secondary, unostentatious direction are now all that Russia has.
    4. +3
      15 September 2023 13: 42
      Quote: Quiet Don
      Oh, it’s not for nothing that Naryshkin was nervous and shaking at the meeting

      apparently realized what the misinformation that was supplied to Vova would lead to...
      I don’t understand why this humiliation was shown live
    5. +4
      15 September 2023 13: 45
      Lack of intelligence. Complete absence. Monitoring the mood of Ukrainians, which has accumulated resentment since 2014 and those who were wavering Ukraine/Russia have swung towards Ukraine.
      Examples from the 8 years of conflict in the Donbass, where no one escaped at all, should give rise to thoughts.

      All this could be seen without reconnaissance. What did our structures do?
    6. +1
      15 September 2023 21: 04
      Quote: Quiet Don
      + - 200 thousand, of which a considerable part of the National Guard, for a country like Ukraine is nothing.


      Still, there were more than 200 thousand there. And if these thousands consisted of truly professional military men (fighters, and especially commanders), were adequately equipped and had the kind of air support that the author dreams of, then everything would work out.
      1. 0
        16 September 2023 07: 35
        Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
        Quote: Quiet Don
        + - 200 thousand, of which a considerable part of the National Guard, for a country like Ukraine is nothing.


        Still, there were more than 200 thousand there. And if these thousands consisted of truly professional military men (fighters, and especially commanders), were adequately equipped and had the kind of air support that the author dreams of, then everything would work out.

        How much? 220 thousand? 250? Well, yes, well, yes, this changes things a lot. If now, after the mobilization of 300 thousand, the group is estimated at 500-600 thousand, then 200 at the beginning of the Northern Military District is a very real figure. And even these 600 at the moment are barely enough for defense, there is practically no rotation no, those called up last fall have been sitting in the trenches for almost a year and are tired mentally and physically.
  29. +10
    15 September 2023 07: 09
    The low professionalism of our generals, as a consequence of the ossified personnel training system, all this affected the development of our army and the quality of the military training. The Minister of Defense plays a key role in this, creating conditions for the formation of a team of modern professionals capable of solving problems at the proper level. It seems that a large number of seductive female generals surrounded by the minister interfered with his performance of his direct duties.
  30. +19
    15 September 2023 07: 11
    In fact, the problem is much simpler and worse.

    There is a shortage of not only reconnaissance equipment, but also a terrible staff shortagecapable of planning and implementing the plan to conduct an offensive air operation (hello to the reformers of the Russian Armed Forces!).

    But it is much worse that there is no task set for carrying out such an operation. I don’t know who should stage it - the political or military leadership. But there is no such task.

    Even the available forces and means are enough to suppress enemy air defense in one area and wipe out all objects there. Instead, a year and a half of blows with outstretched fingers with no visible results.

    The VKS are not to blame here. This is the fault of those who plan.
  31. +7
    15 September 2023 07: 23
    Yes, we have a huge failure, both in the Navy and in the Air Force. How many planes have been cut down, how many military flight institutes have been optimized, and pilots are leaving for civilian life due to higher salaries. Everyone thought there would be no war, but now rebirth must come, the war has revealed all this rot, I hope they will draw conclusions!
  32. +8
    15 September 2023 07: 33
    Thank you, Andrey, for your honest debriefing.
    Let me make a small (seemingly) abstract remark:
    “Theory without practice is dead, practice without theory is fruitless.”
    As for practice, everything you described takes place.
    But the root of our possible defeat (and even failure to achieve the goals of the SVO is defeat) is not at all in the incorrect formation and combat use of the Aerospace Forces. The root is the absence of a theory of modern war at a specific level.
    It is not true that the preparation of the Ukrainian campaign was not given enough attention. The experience of modern local conflicts was analyzed; in order to gain experience in conducting modern combat operations and remotely defeating the enemy, Russia got involved in the Middle East conflict on the side of Syria. A series of surprise inspections and exercises were carried out. It would seem that...
    But the course of this SVO clearly showed that the established modern practices based on the theory of half a century ago no longer work. Thus, in a high-intensity conflict such as Desert Storm, the main condition for victory is not air supremacy (this is only a tool), but the complete disorganization of the enemy and the suppression of his will to resist.
    And nothing was actually done for this. To disorganize and cause panic in the ranks of the enemy, a crushing blow was needed, bringing down the energy, logistics, life support and control systems. In this case, there would be no need to break through any organized defense. And, importantly, it was necessary to scare the “respected partners” to death with the possibility of taking the most drastic measures against them. This came from the president’s lips, but was not supported by a clear example.
    To develop success, it was necessary to rapidly advance mobile units to capture transport hubs and suppress disorganized resistance, which means the transfer of ALL combat-ready units and formations to the theater of operations. This question, by the way, was worked out many times during exercises.
    To replace the troops involved in the Northern Military District, permanent mobilization was necessary. The same mobilization was supposed to saturate the troops needed to occupy and clear enemy territory.
    None of this was even planned. A military expedition was planned to the neighboring Bantustan with the cursed myth of the “brotherly people”. As if the examples of 1920, 1939, 1941, 1956, 1968 were not enough!
    So the failure of our videoconferencing systems is complex and has a theoretical basis. But in analyzing specific failures, you are absolutely right - attacking quickly means moving through the air, instantly reacting to changes in the situation on the battlefield - strike aircraft. But reconnaissance, combating air defense and electronic warfare is still the destiny of UAVs for the appropriate purpose.
    1. -5
      15 September 2023 09: 23
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      but the complete disorganization of the enemy and the suppression of his will to resist.

      To do this, you need to launch a nuclear missile strike on Washington and London. Do you think it's time? In any other case, any events aimed at Ukrainians will be trivially and completely invincibly flooded with money. Loot defeats evil, loot defeats us...
      1. +4
        15 September 2023 17: 14
        To do this, you need to launch a nuclear missile strike on Washington and London.

        Not necessary. It sounds cynical, but Hiroshima’s jab and Nagasaki’s hook completely reached the addressee - J.V. Stalin.
        Victor Leningradets:
        To disorganize and cause panic in the ranks of the enemy, a crushing blow was needed, bringing down the energy, logistics, life support and control systems. In this case, there would be no need to break through any organized defense. And, importantly, it was necessary to scare the “respected partners” to death with the possibility of taking the most drastic measures against them. This came from the president’s lips, but was not supported by a clear example.
        1. 0
          15 September 2023 19: 04
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          It sounds cynical, but Hiroshima’s jab and Nagasaki’s hook completely reached the addressee - J.V. Stalin.

          Did he have atomic weapons then?
    2. +4
      15 September 2023 11: 46
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      But the root of our possible defeat (and even failure to achieve the goals of the SVO is defeat) is not at all in the incorrect formation and combat use of the Aerospace Forces. The root is the absence of a theory of modern war at a specific level.

      I can not disagree. hi
  33. -9
    15 September 2023 07: 38
    We need unmanned aircraft, maybe made of wood and cardboard, similar to the U-24, Su-34, maybe even smaller in size, they still won’t notice the size in the sky, you could put controls on the same Su-24, and send them to the zone, and then watch where the air defense fires from, finish off the air defense. Next, an air raid with bombs will finish off the enemy in the trenches. And then an airborne landing to finish everyone off
    1. -1
      15 September 2023 08: 28
      Quote from Alexwar
      We need unmanned aircraft, maybe made of wood and cardboard, similar to the U-24, Su-34, maybe even smaller in size

      it's called a UAV
  34. +9
    15 September 2023 07: 38
    Finally, on this site they stopped beating their heels on the chest.
    Personally, I spoke alarmistically 10 years ago, and in response I was only banned from the same site.
    1. +4
      15 September 2023 10: 04
      Personally, I spoke alarmistly 10 years ago

      This could have been done 20, 30, 40, and 50 years ago. And they would have been banned in exactly the same way.... And nothing has changed.... Except....beneficiaries....
  35. +9
    15 September 2023 07: 41
    And if you think about the reasons for all this, then it’s worth remembering that the same people and structures that fell in love with Ukraine in 2014 command and lead, the same ones that gave the enemy eight years to strengthen and prepare.
    1. +1
      15 September 2023 12: 29
      Quote: Alt22
      the same ones that gave the enemy eight years to strengthen and prepare.

      convincing everyone and convincing myself that..."at once" and "with one left"
  36. -21
    15 September 2023 07: 44
    Is the author seriously comparing the first army of the world + coalition and the Russian army of the 22 model? Is the author seriously comparing the Middle Eastern theater of war and the Eastern European one? Sand and rocks with forests and black soil? Is the author seriously comparing the former republic of the most militarized country in the world and the Middle Eastern shalman of yesterday's Bedouins? Is the author seriously comparing a country with adobe houses and buildings made of hollow bricks with a country made of reinforced concrete? Author, is this a humorous article? Never write again and better stop thinking, it’s not yours.
    1. 0
      15 September 2023 08: 30
      The author also forgot that as a result of the victorious war against small Iraq, which no one supported, Saddam Hussein retained power. I will add that the Americans were never able to suppress Iraqi air defense. This is written even in the pro-American Wikipedia. Andrey clearly wrote the article using American propaganda materials.
    2. -8
      15 September 2023 08: 48
      That’s right, I’ll add on my own behalf, also the area of ​​the territories of Iraq and Ukraine. The heavy weapons of the Armed Forces of Ukraine have been practically destroyed, supplies are coming from partners, including air defense systems.
      1. +10
        15 September 2023 09: 27
        Quote: huntsman650
        also the area of ​​the territories of Iraq and Ukraine.

        I’m embarrassed to ask, but what does the recommended area have to do with what is described in the article? Don’t you understand that we are talking about isolating combat areas, which in both Iraq and Ukraine are slightly less than the total area? Or do you think the Armed Forces of Ukraine and the Iraqi ground army were spread like butter on a sandwich throughout the entire area of ​​the country? :)))
        Question two - what prevented you from conducting an air operation over a particular region, as I understand it, did not occur to you?
    3. +4
      15 September 2023 09: 18
      What a surprise! Archaeologists around the world are using lidars attached to airplanes and UAVs to discover 10-year-old structures and farmland hidden not in forests but in jungles. The Armed Forces of Ukraine are located mainly in forest plantations and continue to fight very well and not just fight, but attack and advance. Yes, with heavy losses, but they are advancing, which means our soldiers are dying. But they are also shelling Moscow, not to mention other regions.
    4. +14
      15 September 2023 09: 20
      Quote: Vincent Price
      Is the author seriously comparing the former republic of the most militarized country in the world and the Middle Eastern shalman of yesterday's Bedouins?

      Is it okay that the “Middle Eastern scoundrel” outnumbered the Ukrainian Armed Forces several times in terms of aviation numbers? And also had a significant superiority in the number of tanks and artillery?
      Quote: Vincent Price
      Never write again and better stop thinking, it’s not yours.

      Yeah :))) Funny :)))))
      1. +6
        15 September 2023 10: 09
        And you, dear sir, write nasty things)). And nasty things upset us, interfere with after-dinner digestion and generally....corrupt our youth. Which, as you know, is “our hope and stronghold.”...
        And who likes to read this?? These...fans of...kvass? So they are in grief, their earflaps are gone.....
        This has happened before, as you know). Only then, naturally, the whole country was “in one impulse” for four years..... And now the impulse is only on the forums.....
        1. +3
          15 September 2023 11: 47
          Quote: frog
          And you, dear sir, write nasty things)).

          Greetings, dear Dmitry! Yes, I can do that :))))))
      2. -8
        15 September 2023 10: 52
        Even in prosperous Europe, a significant part of the equipment turned out to be not only not combat-ready, but practically rotten. What was the condition of the military equipment in Iraq? I am especially interested in the condition of the planes buried in the sand.
        And it's not just a matter of quantity. There are many times more military facilities on the territory of Ukraine; the majority of the male population went through the conscription army. Not to mention what kind of warriors the Arabs are. Moreover, the Russian Federation did not have technical superiority over the Armed Forces. In terms of intelligence, we are generally at the level of, God willing, the mid-eighties. The comparison of these two conflicts is so absurd that it is difficult to even discuss without Homeric laughter. Let me give you another example.
        Let's talk about infrastructure. Remember the strikes by the Aerospace Forces and Israel in Syria? How wonderful were the buildings built using the dendrofecal method? Now let’s remember Bakhmut or Mariupol. Both cities were shelled for half a year. And they were still fit to be held.
        1. +7
          15 September 2023 11: 32
          Quote: Vincent Price
          What was the condition of the military equipment in Iraq? I am especially interested in the condition of the planes buried in the sand.

          Who is stopping you from studying the issue? I understand that gnawing on materiel is not writing comments on articles, but the brain still has to strain a little. But I’ll give you a hint - the sheer number of Iraqi planes shot down in air battles + the number of those that flew to Iran is already greater than the Ukrainian Armed Forces had at the beginning of 2022. Let’s take into account that a number of combat-ready ones were destroyed at the airfields. At the same time, can you count the number of tanks lost by the Iraqis in Kuwait (or, in your opinion, were they transporting scrap metal there on trailers?)
          But then, when you figure all this out, finally be puzzled by the real technical state of the APU equipment.
          Quote: Vincent Price
          In terms of intelligence, we are generally at the level of, God willing, the mid-eighties.

          That is, you first write to the author “thinking is not your thing,” and then repeat his conclusions? :) It’s a pity that I don’t know any psychiatrists; I can’t recommend them.
          Quote: Vincent Price
          Let's talk about infrastructure.

          Let's. Just start by finding out what infrastructure is and what it consists of. Then figure out which infrastructure facilities should be destroyed to isolate combat areas. If so, there is a hint in the article.
          On the one hand, this is achieved by destroying infrastructure - railway junctions, bridges, etc.
          1. -6
            15 September 2023 15: 03
            I understand, but you don’t. Perhaps you write such opuses because you don’t know a psychiatrist. I repeat once again, you are comparing 2 conflicts that cannot be compared. The military capabilities of the Russian Federation are comparable to those of Ukraine. Yes, more, and more modern, but they are comparable. The military capabilities of Iraq and the coalition are in no way comparable. Due to the technological gap, due to the level of training of l/s. Moreover, the superiority of the coalition was easily realized due to the theater of operations. Ukraine has the most complex theater. I understand that it’s difficult to admit that you wrote nonsense comparing the finger and the MPH. But don't continue to be zealous in the comments.
            1. +4
              15 September 2023 18: 08
              Quote: Vincent Price
              I understand, but you don’t.

              I'm sure you are sure of this. Alas, so far your argumentation... I would say that it is lame on all four, but I can’t. You simply don't have it.
              Quote: Vincent Price
              I repeat once again, you are comparing 2 conflicts that cannot be compared.

              At least repeat yourself. White noise.
              Quote: Vincent Price
              The military capabilities of Iraq and the coalition are in no way comparable. Due to the technological gap, due to the level of training of l/s.

              Translate your chatter into something less unfounded. Air Force? We have deliveries of new 4++ aircraft, new helicopters, new radars, new airborne attack systems, etc. Pilot flying hours? Incomparable, again, not in favor of the Ukrainian Armed Forces. Rockets? We have thousands of new cruise missiles. The Ukrainian Armed Forces... have a fleet? Not funny at all. And so on.
              Quote: Vincent Price
              I understand that it’s difficult to admit that you wrote nonsense comparing the finger and the MPH.

              Yes, you don’t understand anything. Go and learn the materiel, then you’ll tell tales about
              Quote: Vincent Price
              the republic of the most militarized country in the world
          2. -4
            15 September 2023 15: 04
            Let me add: draw another analogy with Vietnam. It turns out that Ukraine has every chance of winning, right? Or does it only work in the direction convenient for you?))))
    5. +4
      15 September 2023 12: 34
      Writing comments is also not your thing.
    6. +2
      15 September 2023 13: 50
      Where is our coalition of CSTO countries? Our diplomats are simply busy with villas and children in Europe, and not with work.
      1. +3
        15 September 2023 21: 15
        The CSTO is a defensive bloc. The participating states are not obliged to help “show real decommunization, hehe”; moreover, this would be a crime against their peoples. So Lukashenko got involved, did this make Belarusians feel good?
  37. +14
    15 September 2023 07: 46
    A year and a half, a fairly long period of time, which allowed even people not most knowledgeable in military affairs to notice obvious inconsistencies in the development of the situation and its information support. However, the main reason, in my opinion, is lies. Lies at all levels, one might say - systemic lies. And the higher the level this happens, the sadder the consequences even in the medium term. And we will begin to win when we stop lying to ourselves, first of all, and get down to real work, without cheap, and sometimes not at all cheap, “shots at the chandelier.” Telling the truth is difficult and painful, sometimes to the point of gnashing teeth, but not telling it is more than a crime, especially since in most cases, hiding a lie is more expensive than telling the truth.
  38. +2
    15 September 2023 08: 11
    When the VKS was commanded by a tanker, this was the result ((((
  39. -8
    15 September 2023 08: 15
    There is no need to compare the air defense of Iraq and Ukraine, bulky stationary systems and mobile mobile ones!
    1. +2
      15 September 2023 21: 17
      Let's talk about bulky stationary ones. The Ukrainians have now started firing converted S-200 missiles at ground targets. You can’t think of anything more cumbersome and stationary, but they lasted the entire NVO and are still standing.
      1. 0
        18 September 2023 18: 09
        Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
        The Ukrainians have now started firing converted S-200 missiles at ground targets. You can’t think of anything more cumbersome and stationary, but they lasted the entire NVO and are still standing.

        S-200s are not stationary. Transportable. I don’t know whether they are worth it now or not, but for such use you only need a launcher. Perhaps the Ukrainians even designed something simpler for launch than a standard installation, which could spin the rocket 360 degrees. The standard one, by the way, was once made in Ukraine; all the equipment for manufacturing is probably still alive.
  40. 0
    15 September 2023 08: 16
    Author! You wrote everything correctly... I just want to add one thing. Even taking into account the problems you mentioned, a quick victory would have been possible if we had fought with sufficient forces and if all the “wooden” generals had not been around when planning and conducting military operations!
    1. +2
      15 September 2023 17: 20
      Even taking into account the problems you mentioned, a quick victory would have been possible if we had fought with sufficient forces and if all the “wooden” generals had not been around when planning and conducting military operations!

      Sergey, I’ll answer this with a quote from one great man:
      You demand that we replace Kozlov with someone like Hindenburg. But you cannot but know that we do not have the Hindenburgs in reserve.
  41. +7
    15 September 2023 08: 28
    Quote: Vadim S
    we have a huge failure in both the navy and the air force

    Where do we fail?
    1. +8
      15 September 2023 08: 42
      No failures on TV!!! Those who read the Internet, don’t you watch TV!
    2. +2
      15 September 2023 10: 10
      So in innovation, they showed smartphones in Skolkovo fellow
  42. +2
    15 September 2023 08: 33
    It is worth paying attention to aviation weapons and sighting systems that allow you to detect the enemy and inflict defeat without entering the destruction zone of the enemy’s short-range anti-aircraft systems: MANPADS, Strela-10, Osa.
    The practice of NAR aircraft launching from a nose-up indicates that there were problems with this.
  43. +4
    15 September 2023 08: 34
    Quote: Quiet Don
    Some people, apparently, supplied information that was pleasant to the ears of their superiors. Oh, it was not for nothing that Naryshkin was nervous and shaking at the meeting, it was not for nothing..

    Perhaps, although it sounds like shielding someone from making a mess. And taking into account the lack of resignations even after the Prigozhin putsch, the cardboard appearance of the towers behind which dangles threads leading overseas is obvious...
  44. +8
    15 September 2023 08: 45
    Bravo! Perhaps everything is spot on, 10 points out of 10. Quite rightly, the Western media dubbed the Northern Military District a repetition of the First World War. Perhaps there is some great, insidious meaning behind this, but it is too bloody. Or it looks like this from the sofa, but in reality everything is completely different.
  45. -9
    15 September 2023 09: 08
    Andrey, you forgot about political restrictions; if tactical nuclear weapons had been used to hack resistance nodes, destroy central control centers and logistics junctions, nothing that is happening now would not have happened. Further: the Russian army was preparing for a clash with the armies of the aggressive NATO bloc, and this was the use of nuclear weapons in the first hours of hostilities, or for a counter-terrorism operation (Syria), but not for the Rubilov of World War I. The absence of AWACS and electronic warfare aircraft (in sufficient quantities) in the Aerospace Forces can be associated with the eternal problem of insufficient funding. With respect to you: Ezekiel 25_17.
    1. +5
      15 September 2023 12: 37
      Quote: Ezekiel 25-17
      Next: the Russian army was preparing for a clash with the armies of the aggressive NATO bloc

      That is, you weren’t preparing to fight with Ukraine? Even after 2014? Then why did you go there?
  46. +1
    15 September 2023 09: 16
    What is modern war? Modern war is maneuvering with energy. Energy is packaged in ammunition. This energy must be delivered to a place where it will destroy enemy energy chains, that is, enemy delivery vehicles, enemy fuel for these delivery vehicles, enemy food for manpower, that is, enemy energy.
    How did the Germans manage to dominate 41? Thanks to more efficient organization of energy delivery. The sky was in their will, thanks to the suppression of our delivery vehicles, they quickly delivered their ammunition to influence our army. On the ground, thanks to Guderian’s work on synchronizing marching speeds, the Germans operated their energy structure much faster and more harmoniously. We defeated them when we surpassed them in all this. And our fighters operated with their energy capabilities much better than the Germans, thanks to mass heroism, a phenomenon the world had never seen before.
    What has changed now? Missiles and very long-range artillery appeared on an unprecedented scale. Thanks to missiles, there is no need to carry the entire mass of troops from place to place; you can cover the enemy simply by launching a massive missile strike. Artillery should be viewed in the same way.
    What happens? As soon as the enemy begins a maneuver, immediately, thanks to satellite and aerial reconnaissance, the command of the attacked formation can organize the destruction of the attackers. An attack today is a kind of suicide.
    Our command did not count on any serious military operation at all. This is absolutely clear to anyone who even superficially follows what is happening. The global failure of pre-war measures is beyond the scope of the topic under consideration, but it happened. However, our command quickly applied the best tactics that could be invented at that time.
    What's happening now? Now NATO strategists are exchanging Ukrainians for our ammunition. A global “meat demining” is underway. The expectation is that we will have a collapse or a serious drop in the production of ammunition and weapons. When we have radically less of all this (they don’t care at all that to achieve such a result they will have to sacrifice at least all the millions of Ukrainians who are not smart enough to escape), the well-equipped Europeans will fall on us and destroy us.
    That's why I regularly write that we need to win, time is not on our side!!
    How far the enemy succeeds is in the will of our leadership...
  47. ban
    +6
    15 September 2023 09: 19
    Andrey, welcome!
    Everything is written absolutely correctly.
    Only one extremely important aspect has not been touched upon - the bureaucratic organization of our Armed Forces. Will, for example, a company commander or a battalion commander from the front line be able to call an airstrike here and now?
    1. +2
      15 September 2023 10: 02
      Quote: ban
      Will, for example, a company commander or a battalion commander from the front line be able to call an airstrike here and now?

      If the enemy’s air defense is not suppressed, I think even the division commander will not be able to. And the point here is not in bureaucracy, but in the senselessness of this idea, because... planes will be shot down even before reaching the line of use, if they are not long-range, high-precision aviation weapons. But, as always, there are very, very few of them.
      1. ban
        +2
        15 September 2023 10: 38
        What if the air defense is suppressed? Yes, just a NAR from pitching up, at worst?
      2. 0
        15 September 2023 21: 45
        But, as always, there are very, very few of them.


        Who prevented the enemy from flooding the front-line zone with hundreds of DRGs and clearing out, step by step, air defense, HIMERS and other long-range complexes of the Ukrainian Armed Forces.
        If you weren’t able to fight “from the sky”, fight with your feet, that’s why they created 4 airborne divisions and 8 army special forces brigades so that they would not sit in the trenches instead of the infantry, but “work” behind the front line.....
    2. +3
      15 September 2023 11: 50
      Quote: ban
      Everything is written absolutely correctly.

      Thank you, Yuri!
      Quote: ban
      Only one extremely important aspect is not touched upon

      In fact, I think I haven’t touched on a million important aspects, but... As for me, intelligence is a fundamental issue, without which other important aspects will not have an acceptable solution.
      1. ban
        +4
        15 September 2023 12: 39
        I agree.
        But on the other hand, even good reconnaissance will not help if the decision to strike goes through long chains of headquarters.
        After all, with the Americans, even a sergeant can call for an airstrike or missile defense.

        And with reconnaissance - for how many years have we been launching bourgeois satellites instead of our own, building expensive boards on which we sawed a lot, and which we are afraid of losing, instead of simple and massive information security, the list can be endless, you are right
        1. +8
          15 September 2023 12: 47
          Quote: ban
          But on the other hand, even good reconnaissance will not help if the decision to strike goes through long chains of headquarters.

          This is undoubtedly true. Intelligence is not a guarantee of victory, but only one of the necessary components of success. Without it, there will be no success, but if it exists, then it is, of course, very possible to ruin the opportunities that it provides by negligence in other matters.
  48. +6
    15 September 2023 09: 31
    Quote: Ezekiel 25-17
    The absence of AWACS and electronic warfare aircraft in the Aerospace Forces (in the required quantity) can be associated with the eternal problem of insufficient funding

    how easy it is to blame everything on lack of funding, and who spoke about 70% of modern weapons and those that have no analogues???? That’s it, we need to start small - at least stop lying, and then we can talk about the rest....
  49. +7
    15 September 2023 09: 52
    Or maybe the goal of the SVO is completely different, and not the one they tell us. Everyone in the Kremlin can’t be stupid.
    1. -1
      15 September 2023 11: 02
      The smartest in the Kremlin is V.V. Putin, and number two was now considered the summer resident, and in general the politician, writer and poet V. Surkov.
      V. Surkov clearly outlined the need for “utilization of entropy outside the Russian Federation/contact diplomacy” - read his articles of 2021/2022, everything is clear there.
    2. +3
      15 September 2023 17: 10
      They are not stupid, but their goal setting is completely different from ours. For them there are no sanctions, for them there is no loss of loved ones, for them there is no drop in living standards. They are smart and tried to solve the problem with few resources, but it didn’t work out. Now it is being solved with more resources. Mobilized are the same resource as diesel fuel and shells. They will never find themselves in the trenches as long as they have yao. Look at the problem through this prism and everything will be clear.
  50. +11
    15 September 2023 09: 54
    “Therefore, in my opinion, the most important lessons of the Northern Military District today are the weakness of the reconnaissance component of our aerospace forces - in space and air, as well as the lack of specialized electronic warfare aircraft. Due to this, the Russian Aerospace Forces today show barely 10-15% of their real potential , and the fighting reached a positional stalemate of the First World War era."

    After reading this last paragraph, I just want to ask: “ah-ah-ah, who did this?” (c). In the sense that who hasn’t been concerned and “didn’t lift a finger” in terms of the reconnaissance component of our Aerospace Forces and at the same time intensively launched satellites of NATO countries into space with the help of our launch vehicles? There are probably some full names and positions?
    1. +8
      15 September 2023 14: 04
      Quote from AdAstra
      After reading this last paragraph, I just want to ask: “ah-ah-ah, who did this?” (c).

      "Note, I did not suggest it!" (from)
    2. +6
      15 September 2023 15: 00
      After reading this last paragraph, I just want to ask: “ah-ah-ah, who did this?” (c). There are probably some full names and positions?

      They say Obama is to blame, or the Englishwoman is doing shit, there are few options bully
    3. +1
      17 September 2023 15: 26
      Well, at least they earned money... which they put in Western banks, which were then stolen by the same West. Apparently someone in the government is not right in the head. Look, it’s indicative of the rupees, we collected a huge amount of them there, and now we can’t do anything with them))) It’s not crazy to do such things. I think that after such failures, some officials should be kicked out due to official inconsistency.
  51. +9
    15 September 2023 09: 58
    A very good study and comparative analysis with Desert Storm.
    From the very beginning, the SVO was amazed at why there was no massive use of aerospace forces, at least in the first week of the operation, when our planes had not yet been shot down by enemy air defense forces? Now it became clear.
    Thanks to the author! hi
    1. +1
      17 September 2023 15: 27
      To all this, one could add that before the war, the Ukrainian Armed Forces actively placed decoys on which expensive missiles were spent. There is complete lack of knowledge of the future theater of military operations.
  52. 0
    15 September 2023 10: 15
    In reality, air superiority can be achieved in 2 ways in the air defense system. 1. Creation of the necessary technical means. Aviation electronic warfare, loitering anti-aircraft missiles, decoys, etc. What we have now is either insufficient or ineffective (Khibiny). But it's a long way. 2. Through total aerial reconnaissance, at least in the active combat zone.
  53. +4
    15 September 2023 10: 23
    Or maybe it’s simpler: from the beginning, the influence of party leaders on the armed forces was visible... isn’t it time to appoint professionals to positions? and not award titles and positions for holding tank biathlons and Kronstadt attractions?
    Regarding the latest raid on Sevastopol: I would like to understand the role of the fleet in covering the area... they listed who shot down the missiles, but for some reason the fleet does not have an air defense system... is it possible that the fleet does not participate in air defense duty or someone did not read the combat regulations , did you learn from comics?
    1. +1
      17 September 2023 15: 38
      yes, because at one time many small air defense systems were dismantled from the fleet and sold due to debts in the 90s and 630s. Now, if the cruiser Moscow had an AK-XNUMX system, with proper watch, they could cut off approaching anti-ship missiles or drones that were spinning around it. But the installation was dismantled from the cruiser and it became defenseless. Therefore, a little later, Shells or TORs began to be placed on ships in the area of ​​the helipad. As soon as I saw it, I realized that the Black Sea Fleet was in trouble. The stupidity of the naval commanders, who don’t understand a damn thing about combat operations, what means should be used and when, and even the watches were poorly organized.
  54. 0
    15 September 2023 10: 29
    Well, with what we have - the Russian army is forced to fight with the Ukrainian Armed Forces “wall to wall”, one systemic force against another. The Americans achieved rapid success during the ground phase of Operation Desert Storm precisely because by the time it began, the combat vehicle of the Iraqi ground forces had been irreparably broken by the efforts of the air force of the multinational force. US ground forces did not defeat the Iraqi army - they only finished it off.

    Name me a coalition of countries (across a common border with Iraq) that:
    - I would fly around the US group on AWACS and provide a control center for the air defense and tactical missile systems of Iraq
    - Would carry out electronic reconnaissance against the coalition
    - would supply the Iraqi Army with the most modern equipment and communications
    - send mercenaries
    - It would provide modern missile launchers and control centers for launches against US ships and headquarters in the region.
    - would pay salaries to the entire leadership of Iraq.



    And give a forecast, given all the already known data, how long 404 would last without support (only the USA, at least)
    1. +4
      15 September 2023 11: 35
      Quote: Zaurbek
      Name me a coalition of countries (across a common border with Iraq) that:
      - I would fly around the US group on AWACS and provide a control center for the air defense and tactical missile systems of Iraq
      - Would carry out electronic reconnaissance against the coalition
      - would supply the Iraqi Army with the most modern equipment and communications
      - send mercenaries
      - It would provide modern missile launchers and control centers for launches against US ships and headquarters in the region.
      - would pay salaries to the entire leadership of Iraq.


      all this seems logical, but supplies and support began, which had some impact 3-4 months after the start of the SVO... what about the first 3-4 months? The Armed Forces of Ukraine had Soviet air defense from 30-40 years ago at that time... and we have modern aircraft weapons... during this time, all the old air defense of the Armed Forces of Ukraine could have been rolled out to hell... and even now, no short-range complexes have been delivered so many and the majority - Kyiv is guarded ..
      1. -1
        15 September 2023 19: 08
        Quote: Level 2 Advisor
        but supplies and support began, which had some impact 3-4 months after the start of the SVO

        Ukraine, 8 years before the Northeast Military District, became completely controlled by the United States.
    2. +3
      15 September 2023 11: 51
      Quote: Zaurbek
      no matter how much lasted 404 without support (US only

      But previously it was completely unknown that the West already supports Ukraine and will only do so more!!

      Did you count on the “reliable” red lines to hold? Nevertheless, it was possible to prevent the West from supplying the Ukrainian Reich with weapons by at least disrupting communications. But nothing, I repeat, nothing was done. Except for the childish arts with red paint.
    3. +6
      15 September 2023 11: 51
      Quote: Zaurbek
      - I would fly around the US group on AWACS and provide a control center for the air defense and tactical missile systems of Iraq
      - Would carry out electronic reconnaissance against the coalition

      This would not in any way prevent the destruction of air defense if we could do it. AWACS in the distance is jammed by electronic warfare in the same way as the air defense missile system radar.
      1. -1
        15 September 2023 13: 35
        This would affect the attacker's losses in aviation, warehouses, ships, headquarters....
        1. +4
          15 September 2023 14: 04
          Quote: Zaurbek
          This would affect the attacker's losses in aviation, warehouses, ships, headquarters....

          How? A little more detail please
    4. +2
      15 September 2023 12: 45
      Quote: Zaurbek
      Name me a coalition of countries (across a common border with Iraq) that:

      What gave you reason to think that it would be different? It was obvious to anyone who was even slightly interested in the international situation and the topic of Ukraine that it would be exactly as it was. Well, if you don't deceive yourself, of course.
      1. 0
        15 September 2023 13: 34
        If a country has developed economically (along the Western path) like an ordinary capital country, it (the Russian Federation) has a certain percentage of GDP spent on defense. Events in 404 showed that the direction was not correct.
    5. +2
      15 September 2023 14: 25
      And give a forecast, given all the data already known, how long 404 would last without support


      404 held out until real NATO support began 2 month.
      It all started on February 24, 2022.
      And NATO’s decision to help Ukraine was made on April 26, 2022.
      1. 0
        16 September 2023 09: 32
        Help plays an important role, but you underestimate everything. As for the suppression of Ukrainian air defense, we considered this issue in 2014 and came to the conclusion that this is impossible. Losses will be at an unacceptable level. And this does not take into account the assistance of NATO countries.
  55. +4
    15 September 2023 10: 44
    The result is that the main Iraqi air defense forces were destroyed during the first strike. First!


    And this first blow was delivered by Stealth - Lockheed F-117 Nighthawk. At 3 am they brought out air defense comparable to the Moscow zone.

    This is the main lesson. wink
    1. +1
      19 September 2023 15: 07
      Quote: Arzt
      And this first blow was delivered by the Stealth aircraft - the Lockheed F-117 Nighthawk.

      Not only and not so much. The two main surveillance radars of the Iraqis were completely removed by helicopters
  56. -5
    15 September 2023 10: 56
    hi
    Very strange article.
    If I understand correctly, the author wants to show the “correct version of SVO” using the example of Desert Storm.

    Firstly, if we compare Iraq and the Coalition Armed Forces, then we also need to compare Ukraine (+ Ramstein Coalition) and the Russian Armed Forces. If you try to start comparing the numbers, it is clear that no “Desert Storm” in/in Ukraine in 2022 was possible.
    IMHO, but apparently no one cosplayed Desert Storm, “Ukraine 2022” was supposed to be a version of “Kazakhstan 2022”. For some reason, no one wants to remember the successful military decision in 2022 in Kazakhstan - and the analogies are obvious.

    Secondly, if we are to compare quantitatively and qualitatively the equipment of the parties, then we would need to return again at least to the number of air defense systems and their quality, which the Armed Forces of Ukraine had not “S75 and S125”, but S300, Buki, Osa and Strela (and yes, there were also C125 somewhere).
    And how to compare the Air Force, which trained and fought with “at the very least,” but armies with air defense systems and aviation; and the Air Force, which for the last 50 years has been fighting with paramilitaris, which had rare MANPADS and anti-aircraft missiles from its air defense?
    It’s not funny at all about “isolating the battlefield” - let’s look at who Ukraine borders with and a map of the railway and highway roads of Ukraine. Even the question “why are there bridges on the Dnieper” has been discussed more than once - IMHO, even the “Coalition of 1991” would not have been able to stop the movement across the Dnieper, and in 2023 this task under current conditions cannot be solved with conventional weapons.
    It’s good that the author stopped praising the Hephaestus sight and the practice of its use!

    PS. The article itself is not bad - it asks a question about possible military issues in the Northern Military District. Well, the fact that the solutions are not particularly visible in the article - who has them, these solutions?!
    1. +10
      15 September 2023 11: 44
      Quote: Wildcat
      Secondly, if we are to compare quantitatively and qualitatively the equipment of the parties, then we would need to return again at least to the number of air defense systems and their quality, which the Armed Forces of Ukraine had not “S75 and S125”, but S300, Buki, Osa and Strela (and yes, there were also C125 somewhere).

      Only the SVO began not in 1991, but a little bit 31 years later. By 1991, the same S-125 had been in service for 30 years; by the beginning of the Northern Military District, the first S-300s had been in service... oh wow, they were 75 years old, 47 years old, it turns out. And, what is very important, the complexes were OURS, that is, we knew everything about them.
      Quote: Wildcat
      And how to compare the Air Force, which trained and fought with “at the very least,” but armies with air defense systems and aviation; and the Air Force, which for the last 50 years has been fighting with paramilitaris, which had rare MANPADS and anti-aircraft missiles from its air defense?

      Based on the experience of others, of course.
      Quote: Wildcat
      It’s not funny at all about “isolating the battlefield” - let’s look at who Ukraine borders with and a map of the railway and highway roads of Ukraine.

      And what did you see there that confused you?
      Quote: Wildcat
      It’s good that the author stopped praising the Hephaestus sight and the practice of its use!

      The author did not glorify Hephaestus, but wrote that he was quite useful in certain situations. The Americans, for example, seeded Iraq with carpet bombing from stratobombers; Hephaestus would have allowed them to achieve the desired effect with much less bomb consumption. Another question is that you must first ensure air supremacy in order to use stratobombers or Hephaestus. Did I somewhere describe Hephaestus as a means of gaining air supremacy? :))))) Please give me the link, I’ll read it with pleasure :)))
      1. 0
        15 September 2023 12: 51
        Hmm, let’s first “in general”, to the “particulars” (why Desert Storm in/in Ukraine is impossible in 2022) later, if I may.

        So, "in general".
        NWO is not Desert Storm, because “the liberation of the brotherly people from the power of Nazis and drug addicts and the people are waiting for us” is not the same as “the use of force to liberate Kuwait from occupation.”
        Therefore, not a multi-day air operation “Based on the experience of others, of course,” but immediately the direction of columns of equipment with the Russian Guard. And such a decision could look quite reasonable - remember 2014 and the effective blocking of the Ukrainian Armed Forces in Crimea. From the point of view of “after-knowledge” this may not be the case, but in Crimea 2014 (and Kazakhstan 2022, most recently) it worked, so IMHO the expectations for a rather “police and special forces” operation were largely justified.
        Accordingly, why do we need Desert Storm when we have our own positive examples? And different “situations” require different “tools”.

        We look at who Ukraine borders with and a map of railway and highway roads of Ukraine.
        And what did you see there that confused you?
        I was confused by a more developed road and rail network than Iraq, to ​​begin with.

        The author did not glorify Hephaestus, but wrote that he was quite useful in certain situations. The Americans, for example, seeded Iraq with carpet bombing from stratobombers,
        OMG wassat

        Did I somewhere describe Hephaestus as a means of gaining air supremacy? :)))))
        Do you consider this an achievement?

        PS. My IMHO “from the couch” has not changed since 2021:
        If the “minimum program” - the “pitting” of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the LDPR zone had been done, then it would have been possible to transfer the actions to the right bank of the Dnieper, towards the “PMR side”. However, the political goal of “changing power in Kyiv” did not work out for various reasons, hence the somewhat unexpected consequences (in contrast to the successful, I emphasize, operation in Kazakhstan in the same 2022).

        The option “Desert Storm for Ukraine in 2022” IMHO is impossible at all, for this it would be necessary to prepare completely different armed forces for many years, "Based on the experience of others, of course.".
        And the Armed Forces were preparing for what happened over the last 50 years - Afghanistan, Chechnya, Georgia, Syria - paramilitaris/weak armies with weak air defense/air force, simply because “Based on the experience of others, of course” it is generally impossible to live, especially if you don’t expect that this experience will be useful at all.
        1. +7
          15 September 2023 13: 29
          Quote: Wildcat
          Therefore, not a multi-day air operation “Based on the experience of others, of course,” but immediately the direction of columns of equipment with the Russian Guard.

          Everything is fine, but there is a nuance - one does not interfere with the other at all.
          Quote: Wildcat
          Accordingly, why do we need Desert Storm when we have our own positive examples? And different “situations” require different “tools”.

          And certainly no one stopped us from organizing Desert Storm when it became clear that the North Military District did not go as planned. It would be something to arrange.
          Quote: Wildcat
          I was confused by a more developed road and rail network than Iraq, to ​​begin with.

          Isolation of a combat area does not imply the elimination of the entire road transport network. This is even theoretically impossible. But it is quite possible to destroy the main transport hubs and junctions, such as railway junctions and bridges, but not throughout Ukraine, namely those that lead to specific areas where enemy brigades are located.
          Quote: Wildcat
          OMG

          Is it news to you that stratobombers dropped 30% of the total mass of aerial ammunition that the MNF Air Force used in that war on the Iraqis?
          Quote: Wildcat
          Do you consider this an achievement?

          I believe that you are now, for lack of substantive objections, inventing reasons for criticism.
          Quote: Wildcat
          The option “Desert Storm for Ukraine in 2022” IMHO is impossible at all, for this it would be necessary to prepare completely different aircraft for many years, “Based on the experience of others, of course.”

          It was necessary to. Who interfered?
          Quote: Wildcat
          And the Armed Forces were preparing for what happened over the last 50 years - Afghanistan, Chechnya, Georgia, Syria - paramilitaris/weak armies with weak air defense/air force

          Sorry, but this statement is somehow completely at odds with the goals that were voiced for the construction of the aircraft. And there the ability to fight a strong, including technologically, enemy was declared.
    2. +4
      15 September 2023 12: 41
      “..even the “Coalition of 1991” would not have been able to stop the movement across the Dnieper, and in 2023 this task, under current conditions, cannot be solved with conventional weapons.” It’s a strange thesis; the Ukrainians with the Crimean Bridge have fully proven that such problems can be solved.
      "..who has them, these solutions?!" Why the hell are we keeping all this horde of lampoons and Kremlin people? They have a lot of money and benefits in order to provide solutions.
      1. -4
        15 September 2023 13: 24
        “..even the “Coalition of 1991” would not have been able to stop the movement across the Dnieper, and in 2023 this task, under current conditions, cannot be solved with conventional weapons.” It’s a strange thesis; the Ukrainians with the Crimean Bridge have fully proven that such problems can be solved.

        1. If you don’t know, the Crimean bridge is working.
        2. The question of “bridges across the Dnieper” is very complex, some of them are actually dams, how to “pick” them?!
        3. 'To date, not a single serious bridge beyond the Northern Military District has been destroyed by high-precision air-launched weapons. Damaged, yes, hit, too, yes, incapacitated again, yes. Destroyed no. All bridges were destroyed either by sappers, or by ordinary, Orthodox cast iron. FABs. A lot. And it was precisely the knowledge of this nuance that forced me to explain again and again to my mother’s specialists in bombing bridges that they would go ///// (like the administrator of BelVPO) with their dissatisfaction with the lack of bombing of bridges by aircraft.
        Because bombing with effective cast iron is a passage over the bridge. That is, above the goal and also /// knows how much for it, i.e. coming under attack from all enemy air defense systems.
        And I thank the higher powers that stopped our command from following the advice of all these numerous mothers ////// and we were left with aviation, and /////// with bridges.
        " t.me/s/fighter_bomber

        "..who has them, these solutions?!" Why the hell are we keeping all this horde of lampoons and Kremlin people? They have a lot of money and benefits in order to provide solutions.
        Let Andrey from Chelyabinsk explain this to you.
        1. +8
          15 September 2023 13: 45
          Quote: Wildcat
          . The question of “bridges across the Dnieper” is very complex, some of them are actually dams, how to “pick” them?!

          You write and immediately provide the correct answer
          Quote: Wildcat
          All bridges were destroyed either by sappers, or by ordinary, Orthodox cast iron. FABs. A lot.

          What's so incomprehensible?
          Quote: Wildcat
          And it was precisely the knowledge of this nuance that forced me to explain again and again to my mother’s specialists in bombing bridges that they would go ///// (like the administrator of BelVPO) with their dissatisfaction with the lack of bombing of bridges by aircraft.
          Because bombing with effective cast iron is a passage over the bridge. That is, over the target and also /// knows how much for it, those. coming under attack from all enemy air defense systems.

          That is why, in order not to fall under the attack of this air defense, you must first defeat this air defense. And what was needed for this is what is written in the article.
          1. -2
            15 September 2023 13: 59
            belay
            I'll answer you in the evening, okay?

            For now, for the benefit of the economy “in general” and financiers “in particular”, something needs to be eliminated (in the good sense of the word).
        2. The comment was deleted.
          1. The comment was deleted.
    3. +1
      16 September 2023 13: 06
      Ukraine 2022" was supposed to be a version of "Kazakhstan 2022". For some reason, no one wants to remember the successful military decision in 2022 in Kazakhstan - and the analogies are obvious.


      It was only in the flawed minds of the Kremlin advisers that Ukraine in 22 could have been “pacified” according to the Kazakh scenario.
      This chance was foolishly and cowardly missed in 2014, when the forces of special forces and the Airborne Forces could have eliminated several thousand Maidan Nazis in Kyiv and other large cities of Ukraine, and to top it all off, the Kremlin also officially recognized the “Maidan power”....
      Eight years of war in Donbass created a fundamentally different fascist Ukraine, and all this happened before the eyes and with the complete inaction of the Russian authorities.
  57. +6
    15 September 2023 10: 59
    Air dominance is everything. This is victory. But the Russian Federation has given up on aviation. Since 400, they have spent about 2007 trillion rubles on the S-2 alone; for comparison, about 2007 billion rubles have been spent on all front-line aviation since the same 900... and that’s just the S-400. How much rubbish they bought for the fleet, how many other air defense systems. How much was stolen at construction sites? If the Russian Federation had relied on aviation since the mid-1500s, it could easily have 2000-50 fighters, 70-XNUMX drills, a couple of hundred tankers, electronic warfare aircraft, and reconnaissance UAVs. Such aircraft would bring victory over Ukraine in a couple of weeks.
  58. +16
    15 September 2023 11: 44
    Perhaps the best article on VO in several months, Thank you!
    1. +6
      15 September 2023 11: 52
      Extremely highly appreciated. Thank you for your kind words, Mikhail!
  59. The comment was deleted.
  60. +4
    15 September 2023 13: 01
    Good article. I always cite “Desert Storm” as how such operations should be carried out, and not all this.
  61. -3
    15 September 2023 13: 13
    Everything is correct and the simplest solution remains, the massive use of Geraniums with a combined guidance system, this includes coordinates, radars, inertial and optical with AI.
    And a daily launch of up to 100 units and in a month can bring Bandera’s air defense to zero!
  62. The comment was deleted.
  63. +5
    15 September 2023 13: 27
    Fraud is the bond of all institutions of our state.
    All the experience gained (including negative ones) is distorted to the point of disgrace in reports to the top.
    Therefore, everything will be decided “at random”, relying on chance, with great losses.
  64. +1
    15 September 2023 13: 35
    I think there is still a plan, and almost everything happens - everything is according to the plan. it’s just that it wasn’t voiced to us or it was voiced at all differently than in the plan... - that’s why it seems to us that we are being led in the wrong direction where logic is pointing.
  65. +2
    15 September 2023 13: 37
    author, we initially have a losing position. It makes no sense at all to fight against NATO's capabilities in a conventional war. Why they didn’t take into account that NATO would get involved in the Ukrainian conflict is not clear at all.
    And since they couldn’t calculate this, it means there is no strategic thinking in the Kremlin and they have no idea what to do next. we just go with the flow. in the end there will be two options - either share the fate of the Indians, or... But there are no more options, it’s useless, thanks to the strategists in the Kremlin.
    1. +3
      15 September 2023 14: 12
      Why they didn’t take into account that NATO would get involved in the Ukrainian conflict is not clear at all.


      This is perfectly understandable.
      Generals always prepare for the past war.

      After all, NATO did not intervene in Crimea in 2014 at all.
      And during the fighting in the LDPR in 2014-2015, NATO also did not interfere in any way, did not supply Ukraine with any weapons and did not help at all.

      So there was an expectation that this time everything would go the same way.
    2. -3
      15 September 2023 17: 35
      But there are no other options, it’s useless, thanks to the strategists in the Kremlin.

      It is with the help of strategic nuclear weapons that it is still possible to win the Ukrainian campaign, but the window of opportunity is shrinking like shagreen leather.
  66. +5
    15 September 2023 13: 42
    Otherwise, how can we understand - you write here that everything is not very rosy in the future - and in Moscow there are plans for gas carriers. Arctic routes, high-speed highways and railways... and a bunch of other plans... - mining and logistics are a priority, not the production of machine tools, aircraft and mechanical engineering
  67. +2
    15 September 2023 13: 55
    Is it just problems with aviation? Ours are sitting, repelling attacks, and the artillery is silent, afraid of counter-battery combat. While our infantry is being mowed down by the Ukrainians, the artists are sitting outside the reach of their art, silent, not revealing themselves. So there is no aviation, no art. Excellent support, fight Ivan!!!
  68. +3
    15 September 2023 14: 01
    Quote: RondelR
    50-70 pieces of drill, a couple of hundred tankers, electronic warfare aircraft, reconnaissance UAVs

    dreams dreams... I’ll assume that we wouldn’t be allowed to do any of the above - our technologies are either outdated or lost, they won’t sell us anything new in this area (they wouldn’t sell them)... as confirmation of the current situation with civil aviation.. .. i.e. colonies (!) are not allowed to develop promising or simply critical industries, only raw materials, only consumer goods (such as construction)
  69. +4
    15 September 2023 14: 04
    Here is the initial attempt to wage a war of maneuver: a strike by the Russian Armed Forces, during which over 20% of the area of ​​Ukraine came under our control, but failed to defeat the main forces of the Ukrainian Armed Forces.


    Exactly!
    At the very beginning we tried to organize a German-style blitzkrieg (beginning of WW2 in the European theater). There was even a landing in the deepest rear of the enemy, on an airfield near Kiev. There was a swift rush from Belarus to the enemy’s capital, and they even reached the very outskirts.

    And what did this lead to, what was the result of this “war of maneuver”?
  70. +3
    15 September 2023 14: 06
    The further into the forest, the less the expression “theater of military operations” remains allegorical....
    1. +4
      15 September 2023 16: 35
      This is already a circus with horses. It’s sad and scary. The prospects are deplorable
  71. 0
    15 September 2023 14: 24
    Our Aerospace Forces did not seem to have an order to destroy the remnants of the air defense after the first strike. In general, the war is being waged in a very strange way.
  72. +4
    15 September 2023 14: 34
    What happened? The process is proceeding as it went.......

    Everything is going the same way as it has been going for the last three decades.
    The only difference is that then we were robbed, and now it’s a matter of murder.

    The habit was given to us from above. Once we get used to one thing, we get used to the other. What previously seemed like fantastic nonsense now seems like “lessons”.........

    I used to think that people didn’t understand something, but now I realized that they understand everything absolutely, but there is no SKILL for collective action in society.

    Society resembles a paralytic who understands everything and understands the lessons, but to no avail. Why the hell should he have “lessons”?

    Our history and we ourselves are a lesson for all peoples.......... For to gouge your country in peacetime, and then “learn military lessons” like the current ones is so cool that no one has ever done this before reached.

    “Removing them” means combing the head, removed from the shoulders: “Ay.. Ay... Let’s trim the forelock...”
    Ugh........ am
    1. -1
      15 September 2023 23: 03
      Quote: ivan2022
      Because to ruin your country in peacetime
      The communists were the first.
  73. +2
    15 September 2023 14: 40
    Well, the article focuses on aviation, but the main thing is still on the ground. And, by the way, Ukrainian aviation also does not fly in our rear areas, and it is not very visible at the front. So 1:1. As for air defense, it is hardly possible to completely suppress it with the means that our troops have, which the article confirms. Ukrainian air defense forces are not as stupid as many people think, especially since NATO has joined in the target designation. As for finances:
    And, of course, we should not forget that the RF Armed Forces, starting from 2010, received much more funding, and (at least theoretically) should have been far superior in equipment to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

    When it comes to finances, things are not so simple. It was possible to pour money into VKS from 2010, but what could they buy at that time? Only what our military-industrial complex produces. But he produced little. As a result, part of the big money would simply be stolen. And in order for the military-industrial complex to produce, it should have not lost talented designers and given a lot of money for development and experimental design work 30 years before the Northern Military District. So everything is not simple with SVO. And the unforgivable miscalculations of the authorities and the Moscow Region did not allow victory to be achieved in 2022, although there was such a theoretical possibility.
  74. +5
    15 September 2023 14: 42
    Andrey! This is a very good article!
    Bravo!
  75. +1
    15 September 2023 14: 57
    Quote: vinschu
    Look at the top of all the colonel generals, right down to the announcer of the central television

    That's a great thing about the announcer! lol
    1. +3
      15 September 2023 16: 05
      Konashenkov is still a lieutenant general.
  76. +3
    15 September 2023 15: 07
    In my opinion, the analysis should begin not with the military, but with the political component.
    If we consider the “police blitzkrieg” at the beginning of the Northern Military District, it is obvious that it failed due to a gross error in the political assessment of the situation in Ukraine.
    Who is to blame - Medvedchuk or intelligence, and what exactly is to blame is a separate topic, there are many questions there.
    But as for military operations, the first thing should have been the question of allies, political justifications and clarity of goals and objectives.
    If we compare it with Desert Storm, there were clear goals - the liberation of Kuwait and Iraq’s fulfillment of a set of demands set by the UN when recognizing Iraq as an aggressor state.
    There was an international UN coalition (and complete political isolation of Iraq), although the United States could well have achieved the same only with its troops; they made a lot of efforts to ensure that there was a coalition, and not a war between Iraq and the United States.
    That is, a military operation should begin in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and not in the Ministry of Defense and the General Staff.
    None of this happened in the case of Ukraine. Quite the opposite: Russia was recognized as an aggressor at the UN, and Ukraine acquired many allies, despite Russia’s almost complete absence of them. I’m not even talking about the vagueness of goals and objectives in the Northern Military District:((
    And this is another moment that radically changes the situation. Taking into account the fact that assistance to Ukraine is provided in such a way that the parties do not have a noticeable advantage, there is no guarantee that if Ukraine’s air defense were completely suppressed, then NATO would not have introduced, for example, a no-fly zone over Ukraine under the pretext of humanitarian