Where will we get shells tomorrow? In North Korea?

328
Where will we get shells tomorrow? In North Korea?

I would like to start with the sad news from the city of Engels, Saratov region. The 9th repair plant, for which its former director Colonel Shinkarenko fought, for the commissioning of which for the benefit of our army we and other no less caring media advocated with more than one material - has been sold.

Yes, more than one article in defense of the plant began with this photo, but alas. 9th TsARZ sold.



Sold to very respected people in certain circles from very high circles of power. And there’s nothing that can be done about it; apparently, they need space more than a plant that could repair BMPs and MT-LBs. Indeed, why repair them, old armored bases, if in our factories they are baked at the speed of Zhiguli cars in Soviet times? Sarcasm, of course, if anyone doesn't understand.

In general, it's a pity. The plant turned out to be unnecessary neither to the State Academic Technical University in particular, nor to the Ministry of Defense in general. What will be there now is a separate question, but definitely not a repair plant for military equipment, because everyone who could repair a repair plant was solemnly escorted off to the march “Thank you everyone, everyone is free.”

But perhaps (no sarcasm!) this is for the better.

After all, running a plant so that it works “like the good old days” is very difficult. I will now direct your gaze to such a seemingly inconspicuous detail as the machine base.


It would seem like a machine. Let's take, for example, a lathe where blanks for projectiles are sharpened. I don’t know how to use machines, I honestly admit, and I won’t pretend to be an expert, but even I, with my level, understand that the older and more worn out the machine, the greater the tolerances for the products it produces. And here you begin to understand the criticism from the artillerymen from the Northern Military District, who clearly say that the shells of the 90s are better than modern, pre-war ones. It’s logical that 30 years have passed and the machines have pretty much worn out their service life. Who repaired them and how is the third question.

I think that in the comments we will have a number of people knowledgeable in the topic and they will complement me. Because I will not raise the topic of moral and physical wear and tear, it will remain in the background, and we will talk about a slightly different topic that arises after the topic of wear and tear arises in all its glory.

The topic of equipment replacement



And here we have all the signs of an approaching catastrophe, because today Russian manufacturers have nothing to buy machine tools with...! Moreover, the horror is that there is nothing special to buy with this very thing.

Let's start translating?

Somehow in our country, as usual, amid patriotic bravura marches and optimistic interviews with people from all echelons of power, IMPORT SUBSTITUTION was announced. Such a powerful state program... It started in 2014 and was marked by the allocation of trillions of rubles for this very import substitution, the release of Resolutions, Government Decisions, and the approval of State Programs...

Well, you remember, it all came down to changing stickers from Chinese to Russian.

And already in May 2022, Minister of Economic Development Reshetnikov explained to those in the State Duma who still haven’t understood since 2014 that the term “import substitution”, which means the transition from importing necessary products to their independent production, is outdated, and “import substitution” also means replacing European imports with Chinese or Turkish ones.

So we also need to understand: you don’t have to produce it yourself, you can just buy it where they sell it. China, Turkey, India, Vietnam, Suriname, Ghana, Papua and so on on the list.

But you will have to make shells of your own caliber, 152,4 mm, yourself. Apart from North Korea, hardly anyone else produces them. And for this we need machine tools, because it is quite logical that if the country’s military industry operates in a mode as if the country was at war (and who said that the SVO consumes fewer shells than war?), then shells need to be fired as if in war . So that there are no shell riots caused by a shell famine, or, as it is now commonly called, “restrictions” in artillery shooting.

Logical, right? In order not to have to send people into an attack, backing it up with “artillery preparation” of four fired shells, it is necessary that there were these shells... well, like in 1945 near Konigsberg.

And for this we need machines. More precisely, they are where it is possible to replace imports by importing unauthorized things; there are machines, but they are not very much like machines.

The world leader in the machine tool industry today is, naturally, China. But this is in quantitative terms. That is, China produces the most equipment in the world. But since the base from which the PRC engineers started was by no means the best (Soviet), the result of copying Soviet equipment, multiplied by Chinese quality, gives... That's right, a lot of equipment is of average or lower quality, and also not very resourceful. That is, short-lived.

Everything here is very logical. If the equipment does not have a long service life, then it simply needs to be changed more often.

I encountered this when I worked at a syringe factory. It so happened that we used luxurious German injection molding machines from the company “Demag” (“Hansy”), Chinese Yizumi (“Raisin”) and Khmelnytsky injection molding machines, the nickname of which is now impermissible. But the “neighbors” actually provided half the volume, apparently because, out of their simplicity, they did not know such concepts as “resource” and “maintenance.” And repairing a Ukrainian injection molding machine is like repairing a Zhiguli in a garage. Not very painful and possible with the help of improvised means. The “Hans” themselves counted how many cycles they worked and simply stood up awaiting engineering intervention. It is necessary, it is not necessary - but if you please, change the antifreeze, nozzles, guides, and so on. “Raisins” simply broke down constantly; they had a “trick” in the constantly fluctuating injection pressure. And our engineers couldn’t do anything about it.

Of course, since then the Chinese machine tool industry has moved forward very much, this is indisputable, the Chinese are generally great in this regard, not only have they made copies work almost decently, but they are also beginning to implement their own developments. But ask any production worker, and he will put Chinese machines at the end of the list, preferring anything from Europe.

What happened here?


And the following happened to us: there was nothing to buy and nothing to use.

The Chamber of Commerce and Industry gives the following figures: last year, about 55% of enterprises planning to replace their processing base (machines) would like to buy equipment from European manufacturers.

Yes, it’s difficult to buy through intermediaries, even more difficult to deliver through third parties, but they understood everything and nevertheless wanted to buy decent equipment. So much for patriotism, here is the opportunity to buy “affordable analogues”.

But let me emphasize: those who worked on German equipment will not dream of Indian or Chinese equipment.

In 2023, the share of those wishing to make similar acquisitions fell to 9%. At the same time, the number of people wishing to purchase Russian equipment increased from 45% to 53%. Patriotic? Seems Yes. In fact, it’s not so much patriotism as finances.

To buy a machine through the “back Cyrillic” from Europeans, what do you need? No, not even a connection. Need dollars. Or euro. This is for starters. And the ruble, which has been halved, when converted to dollar/euro, gives you an idea of ​​what a deplorable picture it is. You will need twice as many rubles as before. That is, it simply may not be enough.

Here, of course, banks are drawn. Our herd of bloodsuckers will not miss the opportunity to provide credit to producers. But here’s the problem: in addition to the damaged ruble, which fell down, the key rate increased. Nothing at all, 2,5%, but loans immediately became more expensive. The banks make minor faces and, hiding a smile (hello, Sber!) say with regret that they have nothing to do with it. This is all a government regulator.

In the end, money is evil, but evil is not enough


And contacting domestic equipment manufacturers is also not an easy task. As an example, I can give one of the two manufacturers of agricultural machinery in our city. The queue is already booked three years in advance; they do not have time to produce as many of their units as there are people willing to buy. It used to be more difficult, all sorts of Germans and Dutch got in the way, now it’s just freedom. Among the competitors are Belarusians and Chinese. There is a lot of work, the only thing missing is the production capacity to supply everyone with goods at once.


But it’s good when there are domestic analogues, even after some time of standing in line. But what to do when they are not there? Then all that remains is to look for a suitable one at a price from available equipment manufacturers.

If India were such a producer, it would be great. Billions of these rupees that were hanging there for Russian oil could be turned into machine tools. But alas, the Indians do not shine at all in this regard, and they prefer to trade in dollars. However, the same applies to China.

As a result, the situation is not very good from a financial point of view. The ruble has fallen in price by half, loans have risen in price. The number of people willing to sell necessary equipment to Russian factories has decreased in proportion to the sanctions.

Listen, just recently historical By standards, in 1990, the then Soviet Union held a confident third place in the world after the USA and Germany in the number of machine tools produced. The top three world leaders is strong.

Now some may say that quantity is one thing, but quality is another. Yes, of course, we lagged behind the Germans and Americans, but out of more than 250 metalworking machines that were produced in the USSR in 000, almost 1990 were already numerically controlled.

And our machines, not CNC, and simpler ones, were excellent for export. Yes, not to the G7 countries, but they went.

But literally five years later, by 1995, the share of CNC machines in the assortment of the Russian machine tool industry fell to almost zero. The beginning of the systematic destruction of the radio-electronic industry of the USSR had an effect. But they did not stop producing other machines, even simple ones. And these machines found their consumers, since they were really accurate and repairable, with a huge service life.

However, the bravura process of “getting up from your knees” for some reason finished off the Russian machine tool industry by 2010. More than 50 machine-tool factories were liquidated, and those that survived significantly reduced the range of products they produced. Why, we could buy everything for oil and gas dollars...

And now that’s it. The European shop is closed, and if you can buy something, then in comparison with the near 2020, everything costs more. The ruble, which has fallen in price by 42%, the jumping cost of loans, payment for intermediaries and delivery through the territories of third countries - all this increased the cost of the necessary equipment by 2-3 times.

As a result, there was actually nothing left to buy machines with. It makes no sense to count on help from a state whose money goes to war. But you will still have to change the machine park.


“A massive replacement of machine tools by Russian enterprises is expected in the next three to five years. ... a major change in the market structure and demand for machine tools is not expected due to the preservation of the current technological structure. Lathes, milling and grinding machines will be in demand.”

This is how Evgeniy Balekin, development director of the well-known company RT-Capital (part of Rostec), assessed the prospect.

But shells, missiles and cartridges are still needed. War, you know, doesn’t care about the machine park and its condition. The army needs ammunition. Of course, it is more than a shame to buy ammunition from the rogue countries of Iran and North Korea, but for full dollars and weapons they will share technology.

It is clear that today the remaining military-industrial complex enterprises are tasked with doubling, or better yet tripling, the production of ammunition. Okay, two shifts. The third is doubtful, since the cult “I’m so stupid, I should go to the machine” worked quite magnificently in previous years. Almost no one wants to go to the machine. There is a severe shortage of personnel at all processing plants and where to get them is the question.


And even migration policy will not help. If our people don’t want to stand at the machine, then those who arrived cannot because of their inability.


But the problem of replacing the fleet also remains. Machines operating in the enhanced “Really Necessary” mode will, quite expectedly, begin to break down and require repair and replacement. That is, European and American equipment can already be written off in advance. What remains?

Of course, I really hope that this won’t affect everything aviation industry where precision is very important. But the ammunition production industry is no less important, because this is exactly what the army stands on - on a sufficient (although in war there is never enough) amount of ammunition.

And when the enterprises producing ammunition begin to disrupt the state defense order due to the fact that their machine park is completely worn out, who will be to blame? Of course, plant directors who did not ensure timely replacement and repair of equipment. But not our highly respected bankers and financiers. They do everything absolutely correctly.

Well, let's count on North Korea.


Photos for illustration are taken from the workshops of the Leningrad Mechanical and Ulyanovsk Cartridge Plants
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328 comments
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  1. +45
    13 September 2023
    Yes, that’s right, prices have risen, but the machine tool industry is very segmented, small in volume and unfortunately insufficient
    1. +44
      13 September 2023
      Sad article... Has everything really gone to waste?

      This is what capitalism leads to!

      Machine tool building is needed. Ours, Russian.

      I remember when I was a child, my parents’ friends would come. They gave us beautiful Stankoimport notebooks, which are not inferior in quality to today's printing. The diaries were in English and German - marketing worked then. And there was something to sell abroad.

      And now... Yes, you'll have to buy from the Koreans. Northern.

      The oligarchs must be dispossessed.
      1. +73
        13 September 2023
        You are completely out of touch with what we need.

        12 September:
        “Putin instructed IT companies and authorities to pay attention to e-sports and support it;”

        29 of August:
        “The Prime Minister held a strategic session dedicated to the development of tourism in the country.... The result was achieved both by attracting investors and through state support provided to companies within the framework of the national project “Tourism and Hospitality Industry”. For its implementation in the last two years, from budget allocated over 100 billion rubles."

        100 billion for the "hospitality industry" in a country fighting an "existential battle with the West."
        1. +24
          13 September 2023
          Quote: Boris Sergeev
          You are completely out of touch with what we need.

          That's for sure. And without this it is impossible to appreciate the full breadth of ideas.
          Quote: Boris Sergeev
          12 September:
          “Putin instructed IT companies and authorities to pay attention to e-sports and support it;”

          This topic is very relevant at the moment. One might even say - topical! Victories in cyber championships will ensure an influx of much-needed currency into the country.
          Quote: Boris Sergeev
          29 of August:
          “The Prime Minister held a strategic session dedicated to the development of tourism in the country....

          A trained tourist can carry up to 30-40 kg in his backpack. spare parts and components for imported equipment.
          And the fact that the dollar has risen in price is, it’s a no brainer, a brilliant move by our government to reduce the dependence of our economy on the dollar. We simply cannot afford such an expensive dollar. This, I am not afraid of this word, is a blow to the gut of the US Federal Reserve and all world imperialism.
          1. +7
            13 September 2023
            This topic is very relevant at the moment. One might even say - topical! Victories in cyber championships will ensure an influx of much-needed currency into the country.

            Yes, Putin didn’t care about winning cyber championships.
            90% of the games that are used in these competitions are like counter-strike or other bunkers.
            It's all about the war.
            If you are brainwashed with aggressive games, it is much easier to recruit you into the army.
            Well, like, you still play battlefield or line-up all the time. Do you want to ride in a real tank and kill real frags? Join the ranks of the Russian Armed Forces.
            Exactly the same as the recruiting motto for the US Armed Forces some time ago, “Do you want to see the world? Join the US Armed Forces!”

            Computer games influence fragile minds even more than cinema or television.
            Because the dive is much deeper. Well, then... So you play, for example, in count of duty, you kill strange figures somewhere below with a UAV.
            And then they show you an advertisement “earn 150 thousand + full support as a UAV operator.”
            For many people there will be no difference between the game and real life.
            At least they don't seem to be on LBS yet.

            I want to emphasize that it might seem that I am against this method of brainwashing.
            Not at all. I played computer games since childhood and did not end up in the friendly team of the Russian Armed Forces.
            But I know three people who joined their ranks largely thanks to Tom Clancy's series of games (and books).
            1. +8
              13 September 2023
              Quote: Denis812
              Computer games influence fragile minds even more than cinema or television.
              Because the dive is much deeper.

              That's not why. But because the parents have no time, and they neglected their child by handing him a tablet/laptop. Or they consider him a free person to whom they have no right to dictate anything.
              Previously, the empty place of parents in upbringing was occupied by television with its series "how cool it is to be a bandit"Or"steal, kill, don't forget about the geese". Now The well-being of Russian citizens is growing and strengthening - and the computer took the place of the zombie box.
              1. -1
                13 September 2023
                That is why.
                The place of the TV was taken by a computer and set-top boxes.
                Just like the place of the computer will be taken by VR or something else.
              2. +5
                14 September 2023
                Previously, the empty place of parents in upbringing was occupied by television with its series “how cool it is to be a bandit” or “steal, kill, don’t forget about the geese.”
                *****
                And even earlier, there were cartoons in the 80s.
                And "visiting a fairy tale"
                What is stopping parents?
                And even earlier, just go fishing/hiking with my father. I have selected all options. And cartoons and computer games and a hike. It turned out that son 32, daughter 29 somehow did not become a reflection of the “world about which it is sweet to talk”; they are quite adults and even know that the Sumerian sea was not dug up :)
                You need to pay more attention to your children/grandchildren. Instead of hanging around on sites from morning to morning
                And everything will be orlite :)
                1. +1
                  20 September 2023
                  We need to pay more attention to our children/

                  Must be participation
            2. +2
              13 September 2023
              Quote: Denis812
              Yes, Putin didn’t care about winning cyber championships.

              Have you heard anything about sarcasm and irony?
              1. 0
                13 September 2023

                The text of my comment is, as usual, very short. And he doesn’t report anything to the administration.
            3. 0
              14 September 2023
              Quote: Denis812
              Not at all. I played computer games since childhood and did not end up in the friendly team of the Russian Armed Forces.

              The XNUMXth? Or are you writing from the country of Svidomo?
            4. +1
              17 September 2023
              Denis812, V.V. Putin is a liberal, so nothing is done with mutual responsibility. Now comes the decline. His liberal views do not allow him to act as J.V. STALIN would have acted
          2. +27
            13 September 2023
            Unfortunately, VVP and his team led the country to the current deplorable situation. And there can be no chance that GDP will be able to take our country out of the place where it has taken us.
            The situation can only be saved by a change in the country's leadership, and a complete one. Unfortunately, due to the purge of the GDP of all promising politicians (not Navalny), we still don’t have anyone to change our GDP to. But it definitely needs to change. Russia may not be able to withstand another 14 years of GDP rule.
            1. +2
              14 September 2023
              Quote: ramzay21
              Only a change in the country's leadership can save the situation

              A change of leadership during a war, and even an existential one, is complete idiocy; in 1917 we were lucky that the West was not so consolidated and we managed to recover after a long and bloody civil war, but this time there will be no such chance.
              1. -1
                14 September 2023
                A change of leadership during a war, and even an existential one, is complete idiocy; in 1917 we were lucky that the West was not so consolidated and we managed to recover after a long and bloody civil war, but this time there will be no such chance.

                Unfortunately, you and I will not be able to influence these processes in any way; it is like a force of nature and is beyond our control. But revolutions just happen in countries with a rotten management system or in weakened countries during a period of upheaval, and just like Nicholas II, the GDP led our country to this situation.
                On the other hand, if rebels or revolutionaries seize control of nuclear weapons, then no one will want to flatter us. The presence of a nuclear missile shield sharply distinguishes the current situation from what it was in 1917, so no one will come to us; they will rather be afraid of the uncertainty and wait for developments.
                1. -1
                  16 September 2023
                  Quote: ramzay21
                  if rebels or revolutionaries seize control of nuclear weapons, then no one will want to flatter us.

                  Vasily, at the very moment of such a coup ("revolt" in Latin - revolution), the controllability of the state... will suffer?
                  Will it improve? Will it get worse?
                  Quote: ramzay21
                  The presence of a nuclear missile shield sharply distinguishes the current situation from what it was in 1917

                  And the entire vertical that manages and controls this shield will somehow immediately... submit to the revolutionaries? Who will not lose control over early warning systems even for a day or an hour? Behind the strategic nuclear forces on duty? Who will carry out this management during a crisis? And will the entire vertical control of the strategic nuclear forces and the RF Armed Forces as a whole perceive the leaders of the coup as a legitimate authority that has the right to make decisions and give orders?
                  Think about it carefully. Because the enemy essentially needs only ONE hour of the collapse of the control of our strategic nuclear forces in order to take advantage of this and end us forever.
                  This needs to be VERY well understood, realized and guided by this knowledge by everyone dreaming of a change of power through a revolution/coup.
                  Do you even understand that the ENTIRE vertical of power, from the very top to the lowest official/military/police officer... is essentially a homogeneous monolith?
                  Yes, with such qualities as they are... But now there is a War.
                  Not SVO or “as if war,” but specifically War - with a capital W, and specifically the 3rd World War. For a new redistribution of the world.
                  It’s just that the West doesn’t want Russia (and its government in the first place) to remain on planet Earth in any capacity after this repartition. So this is a war of survival.
                  And the logical conclusion from this situation is the decision that the West is not needed on Earth at all... it’s just superfluous - like a virus in the body... Moreover, it is deadly for life on our Earth.
                  And make the right, appropriate decisions.
                  Because the choice is small - you want to live or die.
                  I vote for life.
            2. 0
              14 September 2023
              "Unfortunately, VVP and his team have led the country to the current deplorable situation."
              Can you remind me where they led from, from what starting point? What was the situation like where they brought you from? Was everything good, better, more reliable?
              1. +10
                14 September 2023
                Can you remind me where they led from, from what starting point? What was the situation like where they brought you from? Was everything good, better, more reliable?

                First of all, stop pointing at the 90s all the time, 23 years have passed, and if VVP and his team had been busy, then our country would have overcome the difficulties created by Yeltsin for 10 years long ago, especially since the country had personnel, technology and ready-made factories, I just had to make it all work. Stalin took over a country completely destroyed by civil war, with a hungry and uneducated population, and during the 20 years of his rule, our country became a superpower.
                Secondly, welfare has improved in all oil-producing countries since 2000 because oil revenues have increased 10-fold. It’s as if your wife started receiving a million a month instead of 100 thousand, your well-being would also improve, although you have nothing to do with it. So, GDP has nothing to do with this, ask the Kazakh people about this, for example, everything was like ours, only the President did not change and the population began to live much better.
                Thirdly, with GDP, almost nothing has changed. As proteges of the State Department, Chubais and his team managed the economy under Yeltsin and continued to do so under GDP. The way the oligarchs ruled the country is how they continue to rule. Only the façade has changed.

                And let's remember the starting point, what happened in 1999. Entirely domestic aircraft accounted for more than 80% of our airlines, and now there are 0 of them. Entirely Russian cars accounted for more than 50%, and now we do not have completely domestic cars. Our country doesn’t even produce nails now, but in 1999 it still did.
                The picture is the same for the number of schools, hospitals, and airports. With GDP, their number has decreased significantly.
                And finally, the SVO showed the real state of our army and it is very different from the image that was shown to us.
                1. 0
                  December 9 2023
                  Why does Russia need to produce nails? Time to produce nuclear reactors? Let Bangladesh produce.
            3. -6
              15 September 2023
              NATO will evict Russians beyond the Urals until 2045.
              1. +1
                16 September 2023
                Quote from: dvv1951
                NATO will evict Russians beyond the Urals until 2045.

                Do you have confidence that NATO will exist at least until 2025?
            4. 0
              18 September 2023
              What does Putin have to do with it? When the country is ruled by a bunch of oligarchs. Even if he wanted to, they won’t let him
              1. 0
                December 9 2023
                Quote: Yura Ivanov_2
                What does Putin have to do with it? When the country is ruled by a bunch of oligarchs. Even if he wanted to, they won’t let him

                Who didn't let Pinochet lead the country?
            5. +1
              19 September 2023
              The situation can only be saved by a change in the country's leadership, and a complete one at that.

              I remember the times when five general secretaries were replaced in one five-year plan. During their change there was practically no sense for the country and its people; the last union was completely ruined.
              There (well, high up there) at least adjust the value system and add responsibility. Otherwise we will again get the tragedy of the commons (a term from mathematical game theory).
            6. 0
              December 9 2023
              Is Navalny promising? For Western curators, it was very laughing
      2. +41
        13 September 2023
        Quote: Ilya-spb
        And now... Yes, you'll have to buy from the Koreans. Northern.

        I remember that during my first term there was one slave in the galleys. The mention of North Korea was only abusive, and the production successes of the neighboring giant were justified by the fact that the Chinese plow for almost nothing. And we looked at them from above.

        And how everything has changed! Now S. Korea is good. They will lend their shoulder to our superpower in a difficult situation! And the Chinese worker has not worked for a plate of rice for a long time. His salary is almost twice as high as that of a Russian. According to the latest data, the average for China is 133 thousand in rubles.
        1. +12
          13 September 2023
          According to the latest data, the average for China is 133 thousand in rubles.

          Alexey Maslov, director of the Institute of Asian and African Countries at Moscow State University named after M.V. Lomonosov, in one of the latest “Eastern Box” programs, said that about $1200 in China and $1700-$1800 in large cities. Chinese vegetables and fruits have become better in quality, but their prices have increased significantly and are more expensive than those from Central Asia.
          1. +23
            13 September 2023
            Salaries (in dollars) in China have been growing steadily and steadily since the 90s. It is clear that the economy is developing. And we had a surge in wage growth in the 90s after the crisis in the 90s (low base effect and recovery after the crisis). And then the growth of wages in dollars stopped. Stagnation. Our GDP is not growing either. And if it grows, then the growth is below the world average. That is, the dashing XNUMXs ended with years of long stagnation. The recovery did not extend into a period of development. It stopped.
            1. 0
              13 September 2023
              I have a split - some kind of two parallel worlds... the official media with experts praise the eastern forum and Volodya’s enthusiastic speeches in Vlad about breakthroughs about sovereignty about how lucky we are... and here at VO again Roman is up for old times - like his comrade major didn't close
              fellow old-timers here criticize caritalism, and the Chinese accepted the rules and bypassed everyone at the turn... it’s not about the system... too much power in one hand and for too long... I’m afraid to imagine the situation in 36
              1. +13
                13 September 2023
                fellow old farts here criticize caritalism and the Chinese accepted the rules and bypassed everyone
                The Chinese did not “accept the rules”, but crushed their perestroika leaders in Tiananmen Square with tanks, and our old-timers were afraid to do this during the State Emergency Committee. That's all.
            2. +8
              13 September 2023
              Our wages are not growing because the ruling class needs cheap workers to export everything. That’s why the ruble is being reduced to round numbers as if on command. China focuses on domestic demand, the more workers are paid, the more they buy Chinese, as a result, everyone is happy and the country will not collapse if they ban the purchase of Chinese mobile phones
          2. -20
            13 September 2023
            No more than 20 percent of hard workers in China have this kind of salary. Propaganda and lies, just like in the Russian Federation, according to statistics, the average for the country is to live from the belly. A Chinese plows for a penny, 12-15 hours a day. Tales of overseers from "K" PK. And if no one forces you in the Russian Federation, you can survive, don’t work in your business, in China your duty is to work for the bourgeoisie.
            1. +10
              13 September 2023
              Quote: Essex62
              And if no one forces you in the Russian Federation, you can survive, it’s not your business to work

              How is that? Can you give me any advice on how to survive without working?
              1. -13
                13 September 2023
                Vegetable garden, fishing, gathering. But that's not what this is about. The Chinese worker has no alternative. Plow or they’ll close you and you’ll plow for some stew. If you start to be indignant, they will dispose of it.
                1. +8
                  13 September 2023
                  Quote: Essex62
                  Plow or they’ll close you and you’ll plow for some stew. If you start to be indignant, they will dispose of it.

                  This is right about us...
                  1. -2
                    13 September 2023
                    Quote: Mordvin 3
                    This is right about us...

                    If this were so, then half of those who are indignant here would have been shot long ago.
                    1. -2
                      14 September 2023
                      Judging by the number of minuses, it’s entirely Chinese hard workers who have a sweet life. Information that the party strictly monitors that no one who is not part of the caste shirks plowing from dawn to dawn and severely punishes draft dodgers first hand. From a Chinese party official.
                      Regarding surviving without working, what is the question and the answer. I didn’t say to live normally, just to survive without working for my uncle.
                    2. +1
                      14 September 2023
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      If this were so, then half of those who are indignant here would have been shot long ago.

                      Well, definitely you. It’s you who have been justifying the “competent” policies of the current government for years. You and a bunch of other paid guards are indirectly to blame for this situation. So be careful about the executions....
                      1. -3
                        14 September 2023
                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        Well, definitely you. It’s you who have been justifying the “competent” policies of the current government for years.

                        So you are saying that the authorities should shoot me because I support them? Original.
                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        You and a bunch of other paid guards

                        How much do you get?
            2. +7
              13 September 2023
              Quote: Essex62
              A Chinese plows for a penny, 12-15 hours a day.

              ABOUT! I know a great many countries where the same thing is true.
              1. 0
                13 September 2023
                And I know that they write that life is sweet for the proletariat in China. negative
      3. -6
        13 September 2023
        Well, of course, because in the USA/China/Germany/South Korea, etc. Socialism has long arrived. It is not capitalism that should be blamed, but the oligarchy, which, together with its president, is sawing down old factories and does not create anything new. How many people were squeezed out of a business that they did not create based on their heritage? Euroset, Magnit, Yukos, Tinkoff.
        1. +8
          13 September 2023
          Socialism does not provide for the presence of a backbone bourgeois, private ownership of the means of production and mineral resources, as well as legalized social inequality.
          1. +2
            14 September 2023
            It was not about this, but about the fact that capitalist countries have both a defense industry and good machine tool manufacturing; this was all not only in the USSR.
          2. +2
            14 September 2023
            Well, for that matter, not every citizen had birch shops and Packards with government dachas.
            1. 0
              14 September 2023
              The government, as if it had worked for its own dacha, no. I knew one deputy minister, so he went home before 22, and never returned from service. And he took the weekend to work hard for the good of the Motherland. There is no need to talk about the birch tree. The fence from the rotten, bourgeois West was fully justified. Those, a few who had authorized contact with currency, came up with this misunderstanding. So what if they could boil the checks there? For example, I didn’t care about this opportunity.
        2. -1
          13 September 2023
          Don't strain yourself, you can't prove anything to your comrades on the Internet. The West, capitalism, and someone else are always interfering with them. Well, if you don’t have the mind to live well, then this won’t happen. Nobody sets such a goal)
        3. +6
          13 September 2023
          Quote from realing
          after all, in the USA/China/Germany/South Korea, etc. Socialism has long arrived

          You know a little about the USA/Germany/South Korea.
          Quote from realing
          How many people were squeezed out of a business that they did not create based on their heritage? Euroset, Magnit, Yukos, Tinkoff.

          Squeezing out business (in various ways) is the calling card of capitalism. And does it matter how and who did it, whether it was the guys with the beats, or a respected banker in an expensive suit, a foreign corporation or a native politician with the tax system............
          1. +1
            13 September 2023
            Quote: FIR FIR
            Squeezing out business (in various ways) is the calling card of capitalism.

            Yes, in America, more than one film has been made on this topic. A couple were definitely shown in Russia.
        4. +1
          14 September 2023
          Quote from realing
          How many people were squeezed out of a business that they did not create based on their heritage? Euroset, Magnit, Yukos, Tinkoff.

          YUKOS is purely based on the Soviet legacy.
        5. 0
          14 September 2023
          Quote from realing
          How many people were squeezed out of a business that they did not create based on their heritage? Euroset, Magnit, Yukos, Tinkoff.

          I can’t say anything about Euroset and Magnit, although the name Euroset itself has some kind of liberal sound, but as for Yukos and Tinkoff, their so-called creators should have been put up against the wall.
          1. 0
            15 September 2023
            There is no difference between those who are with Hodor and his associates and those who have done nothing. Legs grow from the “saints” of the 90s. One group was able to “soak the other in the toilet” and sit down on an oil and gas hole. Everything else was purposefully destroyed at the direction of spiritual mentors and the main beneficiaries of the restoration of capitalism. Both of them built a gas station in Russia, the difference is in the nuances.
      4. +2
        13 September 2023
        Machine tool building is needed. Ours, Russian.

        In a market economy, you need something that is profitable and brings profit to the owners. None of the entrepreneurs and businessmen will purchase, build, or establish anything that is unprofitable and will not bring profit.
        Should we blame bankers and businesses for this? Whatever the rules of life in the state, that’s how we live.
        There are no attractive conditions for production - they will buy abroad or not get involved in it at all. It is better to sell gasoline abroad at a higher price with gas.
        And as you wanted. This is the only way in capitalism!
        And regarding the quality of machine tools, Europe and Japan of ancient times are ahead of us with technology due to the fact that they have a better climate and did not have to defend themselves from Asian savages, such as the Huns and Mongols. We were killed by all and sundry, we were robbed, the population was taken into slavery. What kind of technological development is there, it wouldn’t die in winter.
        1. +4
          13 September 2023
          Socialism has arrived in Europe and Japan, since they produce machine tools?

          It’s generally funny about Asian savages - did they attack us in the 90s and plunder everything? Even this article talks about the heritage and capabilities of the USSR, which appeared much later than the 13th century.

          PS
          Europe was so overwhelmed with blood and wars from “their filthy people”, and the Mongols and Arabs were also on the territory
          1. -4
            13 September 2023
            Europe had a lot of protectionism in the old days, so they went up. What does this have to do with the 90s? They were a third of a century ago, we are talking about past centuries, about the formation of powerful industrial centers in the West.
            Who robbed us in the 90s is a separate issue, there’s no need to dwell on it here.
            There were no Mongols in Europe, they did not reach it. it was the Europeans who fled south and to us
          2. +1
            13 September 2023
            Quote: Russian_Ninja
            Socialism has arrived in Europe and Japan, since they produce machine tools?

            It always makes me laugh wildly when ardent communists begin to compare Russia with some capitalist country and remember communism.
            1. 0
              13 September 2023
              Heh - everything I've been - from a liberal to a communist (only they weren't called a Nazi))) I'm more of a capitalist than vice versa.
              But perhaps you misunderstood me - I don’t think that everything depends on in whose hands the means of production are - everything depends on personnel
              1. +1
                14 September 2023
                Quote: Russian_Ninja
                But perhaps you misunderstood me - I don’t think that everything depends on in whose hands the means of production are - everything depends on personnel

                I don’t argue with this and I understand you perfectly. But the communists really make you laugh a lot at times.
        2. 0
          December 9 2023
          Quote: Reaper
          Europe and Japan of ancient times are ahead of us with technology due to the fact that they have a better climate and did not have to defend themselves from Asian savages, such as the Huns and Mongols

          What kind of technologies were there in Japan before the 1900s? Can you also bring in South Korea? These countries rose after the Second World War thanks to cash injections from the United States and their mentality. Funds must be invested, then the technologies will be there.
      5. -13
        13 September 2023
        And you can find at least one positive article from Skomorokhov. A specialist in all areas from panties to rockets.
        1. +9
          13 September 2023
          Quote: tralmaster
          A specialist in all areas from panties to rockets.

          In highly specialized military topics he is weak, but in topical issues he is strong as a journalist, we must pay tribute.
        2. Alf
          +7
          13 September 2023
          Quote: tralmaster
          And you can find at least one positive article from Skomorokhov.

          Then YOU will write an article about our achievements. Just don’t copy from “made by us”....
          1. -2
            13 September 2023
            Quote: Alf
            Just don’t copy from “made by us”....

            Is he cringing with anger?
            1. Alf
              +8
              13 September 2023
              Quote: Dart2027
              Quote: Alf
              Just don’t copy from “made by us”....

              Is he cringing with anger?

              These joyful reports from the SUN have already been sorted out many times, it turned out to be outright nonsense, either the assembly of someone else’s, or re-glued nameplates, or the launch of something that does not affect anything in the economy.
              As they recently sang praises about the Superjet - Ours is completely import-substituted, hurray, hurray... True, they modestly added at the end - with imported engines. But here we are soon, already soon, already just about... When you do it, then boast.
              1. -3
                13 September 2023
                Quote: Alf
                These joyful reports from the SUN have already been sorted out many times, but they turned out to be outright nonsense

                Yes, they once showed me these “analysis” with pathos, only when I started to analyze them, it turned out that they were nonsense.
                Quote: Alf
                True, they modestly added imported engines at the end.
                In fact, no one has ever hidden the fact that engines are being replaced now.
                Quote: Alf
                When you do it, then boast.

                So how did they build communism?
              2. 0
                15 September 2023
                By the way, about “Supercut”, oh the auto-corrector is wrong to type, of course Superjet. There is an anti-Russian channel, they showed a lot about what has no analogues and what we have done, although they like to mix truth with lies, but there are enough fried facts. It is stated that the legs of an airplane grow with Dornier 728JET. The dimensions are very close, many of the technological hatches are the same, etc. I would like to hear comments from experts. Otherwise, after a mine clearance robot (There is a similar analogue from Israel), an armored boat (very similar to the Norwegian one) and a military laptop ( the tag from the German geodesic has been broken) - I’m already silent about walkie-talkies and drones... I’m not interested in anything anymore, it’s sad to just realize that we are a “copy-paste country.”
      6. +8
        13 September 2023
        The oligarchs themselves will dispossess anyone. Everyone writes and says: “The President instructed, the President indicated.” That's what he's the president to point out. But don’t forget that only capitalists are in power and nothing will be done for the future. NOTHING. Until the state forces the capitalist to do something for the future, he will not do anything, because it is not profitable to invest in new things, it is not profitable to invest in modernization for someone who thinks in terms of short-term profit and does not care about what will happen tomorrow. The main thing is that he will make a profit today.
        North Korea is working for the future and therefore its production can do things that the Russian Federation cannot. There are personnel there and a desire to work for tomorrow, for the future. And this despite the terrible raw materials “hunger”.
      7. +11
        13 September 2023
        Quote: Ilya-spb
        The oligarchs must be dispossessed.

        No matter how it sounds, is it the oligarchs? China has the most “oligarchs” in the world, in the sense of dollar billionaires, and does this greatly hinder Chinese industry?
        “In China, VAT is not 20%, as in Russia, but 13%. In China, loans for industrial enterprises are given not at 10-15%, but at 1% per annum. Electricity is cheaper there. Here, the price of metal is determined on the stock exchange in London. It is twice as high as the metal should cost objectively. But China lives differently. There, machine builders get metal much cheaper than in Russia. Therefore, a bulldozer imported from China is sold 30% cheaper than a bulldozer produced in Russia,” emphasizes Konstantin Babkin, head of the Rosspetsmash association.
        1. -2
          13 September 2023
          All this does not matter at all, because the oligarch will put all the profit in his purse, sharing it with the beholder. The effectiveness of China is determined by a lot of criteria, but the main one is that there are many of them and they work like hell.
        2. +1
          13 September 2023
          Therefore, a bulldozer imported from China is sold 30% cheaper than a bulldozer produced in Russia,” emphasizes Konstantin Babkin, head of the Rosspetsmash association.
          This is true. But is there really a reason to put pressure on our own production? On the contrary, it is necessary to give benefits to producers, to ensure that the cost of production is lower. The introduction of new technologies, the abolition of VAT for production, preferential targeted loans (since capitalism). But they don’t do this, because there is no immediate profit and there never will be. In the Russian Federation, the cost will ALWAYS be higher, because the natural conditions are such. All Chinese production is located in the warm coastal zone and there is no need for heating or insulation, which means additional costs. This is also an important factor. And most importantly, in the Russian Federation there is no system left for the reproduction of specialists who can launch any production.
          1. 0
            14 September 2023
            Quote: AKuzenka
            . In the Russian Federation, the cost will ALWAYS be higher, because the natural conditions are such. All Chinese production is located in the warm coastal zone and there is no need for heating or insulation, which means additional costs.

            A friend who worked for a Chinese company in Shandong province said that at Kamaz the cost of trucks is lower than at similar Chinese factories. But Kamaz will not be able to win a tender in another country against a large Chinese company. The Chinese automaker will simply write a letter to a higher authority and be compensated for the difference between the selling price and the cost-effective selling price.
      8. -12
        13 September 2023
        It’s just that at the time of the collapse of the USSR, our machine tool industry was completely outdated, as were the machines. I saw with my own eyes how a person worked as a turner at one time. There, machine tool factories had to be rebuilt from scratch, which cost so much money that it was easier to just buy foreign equipment.
        And now all modern CNC machines require microelectronics, but we don’t produce them.
        1. +9
          13 September 2023
          Narrator, don't write nonsense. We had very good machines. What didn’t you like about 16K20, IT-42? Maybe the 2E450 were lousy? Have you heard about GF (Gorky milling machine)? Odessa drilling machines? To be honest, I didn’t like the drilling machines of Sterlitamak, but they also had very good VTS machines. Turning and rotary, Krasnodar, what can you say bad? If CNC machines were not used for their intended purpose, then it is not the machine’s fault. I myself saw how CNC machines were used as “grinding” machines, although ball screws do not like shock loads.
        2. +1
          13 September 2023
          Quote from Narrator
          Our machine tool industry is completely outdated, as are our machines.

          Yeah... In our camps they made thresholds for the Zhiguli and Volga, and made safes to look like guns...
        3. Alf
          +4
          13 September 2023
          Quote from Narrator
          There, machine tool factories had to be rebuilt from scratch, which cost so much money that it was easier to just buy foreign equipment.

          What familiar words... A certain smacking figure, now deceased, loved to pronounce them...
        4. +3
          14 September 2023
          Quote from Narrator
          And now all modern CNC machines require microelectronics, but we don’t produce them.

          From 1993 to 2000, jewelry machines for cutting diamonds were supplied from Russia to both Belgium and Israel. It’s just that the owners of machine tool factories in Russia don’t want to pay real money for the designer’s work. Now this Russian machine has been copied by a Belgian manufacturer of equipment for cutters.
      9. +11
        13 September 2023
        Quote: Ilya-spb
        Sad article... Has everything really gone to waste?

        Yes unfortunately. Machine tool building is long-term money. This is when more than half a year passes from the first melting of material into statin and the sale of products.
        Tolley business, bought it over the hill, transported it, customs and here’s a real profit for you. 2-3 weeks and you’re in the kings
      10. 0
        13 September 2023
        It would be sad if the best machines were not owned by notorious capitalists. Maybe the point is that we don’t have capitalism?
        1. Alf
          +1
          13 September 2023
          Quote: Plover
          It would be sad if the best machines were not owned by notorious capitalists.

          “Once I was in Switzerland as the head of a working group on relations between the Swiss Mechanical Engineering Association and the USSR Ministry of Machine Industry, which I headed for five years. I was accompanied by the scientific attache of the Swiss Embassy in Moscow, a former Russian, almost from Voronezh.
          At one company that produces heavy high-precision machine tools, and in addition watches, furniture, fuses (this is already ordered by NATO), the market dictated its conditions; one cannot live on the production of one product even in Switzerland, so they went to diversify, which - with Now we too are making it understandable. The president of the company suggested:
          - Would you like me to show you our holy of holies - high-precision production, where they make rulers for counting divisions with an error of 1-1,5 microns?
          We went down underground, where there was a cabin with a dividing machine. The temperature in the cabin is constantly maintained at 20 degrees, plus or minus half a degree. On a ruler with a surface of the fourteenth (!) class of cleanliness, calibration marks are applied - fantastic and nothing more! But I was filled with a sense of pride: the standard products were made on our machine. On ours and where - in Switzerland, famous for its EXCELLENT work!
          The dividing machine was manufactured at our head institute ENIMS. I did not miss the opportunity, I turned to the attache: look, your standard products are famous all over the world, but the accuracy is ensured by Russian machines! And - I drew the attention of the attaché - many other Russian products are also working for the glory of Switzerland, including automatic lines from the Ordzhonikidze plant! The official was unpleasantly surprised, an embarrassment occurred that has no place in the protocol: the Russian minister is boasted of Swiss achievements, but he says that this is the merit of Russian technology, and there is nothing to object to him! It turns out that Russian technology is more standard than Swiss technology - if this reaches the press, an international scandal will break out and the reputation of Swiss companies will suffer!
          When Gorbachev fulfilled his global mission, his destiny and the main goal - the collapse of the USSR, I was urgently invited by the Germans, who were close to panic: they had THIRTY-SIX THOUSAND Soviet-made machine tools. This is only in West German plants. The question arose: who will repair? Together with Stankoim Port, we installed several service stations there; the problem, which seemed insoluble, almost a dead end, to the Germans, was solved.
          So I named the number - 36000 machines - ours! In fact, the metalworking industry of Germany depended on them, so here you have “stagnation”! The Germans themselves believed much more in us, machine tool builders, than in the “best German” Mikhail Sergeevich. This is the merit of several generations of Soviet machine tool builders, including N.S. Chikirev. He spared no effort in organizing metalworking technology, the core of mechanical engineering.
          N.A.PANICHEV,
          Minister of Machine Tool and Tool Industry of the USSR (1986-1991)
          1. 0
            15 September 2023
            At one company that produces heavy high-precision machine tools, as well as watches, furniture, fuses

            I like such memoirs, where there is no name of the company, no time of visit. How to check if it was?
            But the activities of N.A. Pantchev in the collapse of the machine tool industry are waiting for their researcher and, in general, how could ALL metalworking in Germany be saved? If only he hadn’t gone, he wouldn’t have committed this betrayal, and just imagine - the ENTIRE metalworking industry of Germany has turned upside down! Do you really think that the same ghouls were in the management there as we have now in the political leadership and would allow an entire industry to become critically dependent on an unfriendly state?
            And regarding the machines, read also about the “Toshiba-Kongsberg Scandal” and when these machines were supplied to us, Gorbachev was not even at the helm of power yet.
      11. +3
        13 September 2023
        Sad article... Has everything really gone to waste?
        \
        I had the opportunity to communicate with specialists. It's not all that bad actually.

        The machine tool industry was not finished off and it is developing. And in the defense industry - only our own.
        Back in 2011, Russian Government Resolution No. 56 was adopted, which prohibited defense enterprises from purchasing imported machine tools that have analogues made in Russia. And it works.

        Here is the catalog of just one Stan LLC:
        https://www.stan-company.ru/upload/catalog_STAN_2023_web.pdf

        Everything is modern.
        Lathe:


        Milling:


        Grinding:


        And globally, the machine tool industry is tolerable. There are exclusives, but they are needed in small quantities, they were already bought with a reserve.

        They thought several times - there is no point in restoring the Engel plant, it is easier to build a new one. There is production itself near Samara in general. Yes
        1. 0
          13 September 2023
          Did we design these machines ourselves or did we steal the drawings from the West? Do you have your own scientific and technical base for their design? And how many imported components do they contain?
          1. +4
            13 September 2023
            Did we design these machines ourselves or did we steal the drawings from the West? Do you have your own scientific and technical base for their design? And how many imported components do they contain?

            Don't know. But I think they licked it off.
            There is a base, a whole institute called "Stankin".
            From imported, probably microcircuits. Although not a fact. The algorithms there are relatively simple, and perhaps Mikron can handle it.

            The main thing is that the machines are manufactured here and not only by this company. This is a whole industry.
            And the machine is not an iPhone, it has been working quietly for 50 years, just lubricate it. wink
          2. +2
            13 September 2023
            Did we design these machines ourselves or did we steal the drawings from the West?
            - I figured out a complex someone else's product - consider it, I made it from scratch myself. How can you simply “lick the drawings” and even make them according to them? This is already reverse engineering.
            1. 0
              14 September 2023
              Quote: Reklastik
              How can you simply “lick the drawings” and even make them according to them?

              In market conditions, there is no problem in obtaining drawings from a foreign country. For example, the Chinese provided me with lists of elements for their dispensers, which are supplied to leading European pharmaceutical and food production facilities. The owners of Russian factories demand that they be provided with a complete set of electrical equipment at the price of half the components from the list for a similar Chinese dispenser.
          3. 0
            14 September 2023
            Quote: Reaper
            Did we design these machines ourselves or did we steal the drawings from the West? Do you have your own scientific and technical base for their design? And how many imported components do they contain?

            I won't write specifically. One of our offices specializes in the production of machine tools, where the mass of the processed workpiece is 10 tons. It sells machines all over the world. But here’s what’s interesting. All high-speed heads are purchased from Siemens; we have no analogues at all. Here is the result: we can produce machines, but we are still critically dependent
          4. 0
            14 September 2023
            Quote: Reaper
            Did we design these machines ourselves or did we steal the drawings from the West? Do you have your own scientific and technical base for their design? And how many imported components do they contain?

            Read Makarenko. There the punks invented the drilling machine. Better than in the USA.
        2. Alf
          0
          13 September 2023
          Quote: Arzt
          Everything is modern.

          I would be very happy to believe this, but what if these machines were examined “under a magnifying glass”? What's Russian about it?
          1. 0
            13 September 2023
            I would be very happy to believe this, but what if these machines were examined “under a magnifying glass”? What's Russian about it?

            Yes, almost everything.





            1. Alf
              0
              13 September 2023
              Quote: Arzt
              Yes, almost everything.

              I honestly watched all the videos, the capabilities of these machines are indicated everywhere. All this is great, but the question is: whose engine, drives, electronics? There is no answer there.
              1. +1
                14 September 2023
                Quote: Alf
                All this is great, but the question is: whose engine, drives, electronics? There is no answer there.

                A 400 W servomotor with an encoder and converter from China cost 2015 rubles in 14. In 000, a spindle, operator panel, 2023 servos (2 kW spindle and 2 W feed) and a drill head feed mechanism from China will cost 700 rubles.
            2. +1
              14 September 2023
              STAN, hehe... And where is this Vadik 236 from STAN? Made your feet into your hands?
              1. Alf
                0
                15 September 2023
                Quote: mordvin xnumx
                STAN, hehe... And where is this Vadik 236 from STAN? Made your feet into your hands?

                237. They say that the admins banned him for criticizing the SVO, but something seems to me that this reason is just the tip of the iceberg, most likely, from Upper Lars there is no time to write comments on the VO...
      12. TIR
        +4
        13 September 2023
        At the dawn of the USSR, they still understood that if you want a strong economy, you need to produce machine tools yourself. This is exactly what we need: a state plant for the production of the most necessary machine tools. Let it be unprofitable, but yours!
      13. +1
        13 September 2023
        What does capitalism have to do with it? Everything is fine with their machines... They know how to count money... And the most severe punishment is the concealment of taxes... For which we can congratulate our owners of factories and the steamship... They work and live in the wrong place... Here, in Russia, the director of a plant can steal, pay his salary in envelopes and not pay taxes... Or rather, they pay, but just from the white, penny wages of the workers... Why does he need to buy machines? They'll work with files... They'll save him money for a trip abroad, and for a house in Spain or Miami... Of course, they took on these goons, but time was lost...
      14. 0
        14 September 2023
        Nope... What we see here is not even capitalism. Under capitalism such problems would not exist. Capitalism drives industry primarily by commercial interests, in which state interests can also be traced. In our case, this is the notorious Russian “Gaidarism” and the betrayal of the elites. They don’t care that the Russian girl didn’t give up, with her aspirations and problems. And yes, everyone is counting on an agreement.
    2. +1
      13 September 2023
      Yes, there is not a damn thing of it and for a long time, there is no cast iron, they don’t cast the beds, what everyone in China assembles is not there, they don’t cast cast iron, that’s all, ales, cast iron is kaput...
      1. -2
        13 September 2023
        Yes, there is not a damn thing of it and for a long time, there is no cast iron, they don’t cast the beds, what everyone in China assembles is not there, they don’t cast cast iron, that’s all, ales, cast iron is kaput...

        Yeah, we're out of cast iron. laughing

      2. 0
        14 September 2023
        Quote: nerovnayadoroga
        Yes, there is not a damn thing of it and for a long time, there is no cast iron, they don’t cast the beds, what everyone in China assembles is not there, they don’t cast cast iron, that’s all, ales, cast iron is kaput...

        Somehow we decided to cast cast iron at our factory. They just melted the frying pans and dumbbells.
    3. +1
      13 September 2023
      Quote: 123_123
      and its machine tool industry is very segmented, small in volume and unfortunately insufficient

      In order to turn a blank for a projectile, it is desirable, but not necessary, to have a CNC machine. It's just a matter of performance. But making a simple lathe for making a projectile blank is not a problem for our industry. This requires, as they say, political will. And you don't need a lot of money. The question is different - who will work on these machines? After all, the country needed lawyers, managers, etc. Where can you find turners? But even here the issue can be resolved - during the Second World War, the boys sharpened on THOSE machines (!!!), but today there is no need for boys, there are enough men who in 2-3 months can learn turning (a highly specialized one, sharpening blanks for shells) , you just need to financially interest the people.
      1. 0
        14 September 2023
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        In order to turn a blank for a projectile, it is desirable, but not necessary, to have a CNC machine.

        The aircraft industry in Russia is faced with the fact that old Soviet aggregate machines are much more accurate than modern ones purchased in Japan and Europe.
      2. 0
        14 September 2023
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        But even here the issue can be resolved - during the Second World War, the boys sharpened on THOSE machines (!!!), but today there is no need for boys, there are enough men who can learn lathe in 2-3 months (highly specialized, sharpening blanks for shells) , you just need to financially interest the people.

        Automatic lathes have existed (and are widely used) for probably a hundred years. I did my internship at a bearing factory back in the USSR. No one turned bearing rings while standing at the machine; this was done by automatic machines.
    4. SSR
      0
      13 September 2023
      Quote: 123_123
      Yes, that’s right, prices have risen, but the machine tool industry is very segmented, small in volume and unfortunately insufficient

      Domestic factories are loaded with orders until the 4th quarter of 2025 (this is about high-precision machine tools).
      The state does not spare money for machines.
      Sanctioned high-precision machines from Japan, Europe, and Korea have long trodden the path in the Russian Federation, and even state-owned enterprises of some countries are participating in this.
  2. +18
    13 September 2023
    Well, let's count on North Korea.
    Aren't you ashamed, gentlemen!?
    (You were never comrades!) am
    1. -9
      13 September 2023
      All power to the Soviets!

      Quote from Uncle Lee
      Aren't you ashamed, gentlemen!?

      To her? No! "As you call a ship, it will sail."



      Sakhip'zadovna raised the key rate to 12%, but in reality production workers receive loans at 20-25%, i.e. Our production (not just of shells) is becoming unprofitable... By the way, this Friday she is again going to raise the key rate in order to completely kill all production in Russia, leave the people without work and drive them to overthrow Putin. And we have no authority over her... The master himself blessed her from behind a puddle...
      1. -6
        13 September 2023
        As a Frenchman, I see that there is a discussion here, which is good.
        But if Putin falls, things could be worse for us...
        1. -1
          13 September 2023
          Quote from: zorglub bulgroz
          I'm like a Frenchman...
          But if Putin falls, things could be worse for us...

          For the French? laughing
          1. +7
            13 September 2023
            Western “regime change” cuts both ways.
            PS I come to this forum because the level is higher and there are fewer offenses than here :o
            I translate the texts into googletrad and check them with deepl!!!! lol
            1. -12
              13 September 2023
              Quote from: zorglub bulgroz
              Western “regime change” cuts both ways.

              The issue of changing the “regime” in Russia is not a matter of changing the name of the country’s leader. This is the question whether Russia should be a colony of the West (East) or not. This is a question: will we live in the jungle or will we build our own Paradise on our own land on the principles of justice.

              Putin is building an independent, independent state. Nabiulina and others want to continue to serve the owner and it makes no difference to them whether it is Western or Eastern. They don’t know how to do anything other than trade their homeland.
              1. +5
                13 September 2023
                And we are not very dependent. Tell tales about independent politics and Russia’s independence to another audience
                1. -2
                  13 September 2023
                  Quote from Deon59
                  And we are not very dependent

                  The West announced a bunch of all kinds of sanctions to us.
                  The West declared war on us, not Ukraine.
                  And we don’t care about the lamp!
              2. +6
                13 September 2023
                Yeah, he built it. The state is incapable of producing the simplest blanks. You have to buy it from Korea!
                1. -7
                  13 September 2023
                  All power to the Soviets!

                  Quote: AVESSALOM
                  The state is unable to produce the simplest blanks.

                  Read my first post more carefully. We cannot produce blanks in the required quantity, not because we are not capable, but because with loans of 20-25% we cannot produce anything at all.

                  Nabiulina created a problem for us - Putin is solving it.
                  1. +5
                    13 September 2023
                    It was not Nabiulina who organized the problem, but Putin who organized it, in the form of Nabiulina.
                  2. Alf
                    +1
                    13 September 2023
                    Quote: Boris55
                    Nabiulina created a problem for us - Putin is solving it.

                    How are you doing? Will Zagra...DPRK help us?
                  3. +7
                    13 September 2023
                    I can see how Putin is encrypted and forced to meet with oligarchs on all sorts of forums and shake their hands. And then, at night, when everyone is asleep, he derails the oligarchic trains. Fresh legend. The tale of a good king and bad boyars. One thing I don’t understand is where you get this belief in a good king, what makes you think so, there must be a logical explanation?
              3. Alf
                +2
                13 September 2023
                Quote: Boris55
                They don’t know how to do anything other than trade their homeland.

                And he ?
              4. Qas
                0
                17 September 2023
                So why did Pu leave Nabiullina when she wanted to resign? How long have Pu been talking about removing Chubais? Yes, there are a lot of such questions. Pu will not do anything with the oligarchy, which put him on the throne and will not let him go.
        2. +1
          13 September 2023
          Quote from: zorglub bulgroz
          As a Frenchman, I see that there is a discussion here, which is good.
          But if Putin falls, things could be worse for us...

          Rave! Why should Putin suddenly fall?
          1. -12
            13 September 2023
            All power to the Soviets!

            Quote: Katya_Ivanova
            Why should Putin suddenly fall?

            I myself don’t, but Nabiulina and the gang are doing everything possible for this:

            - it was they (through their son Peskov) who stirred up the Wagnerites to march on Moscow, allegedly at Putin’s request;
            - it is they who, by raising the interest rate, want to close all enterprises and drive hungry people out onto the streets;
            - it is they, through the media controlled by them, who will show the people who is to blame for everything.
            1. +1
              14 September 2023
              Quote: Boris55
              All power to the Soviets!

              Quote: Katya_Ivanova
              Why should Putin suddenly fall?

              I myself don’t, but Nabiulina and the gang are doing everything possible for this:

              - it's them....
              God, what a mess negative Do you really believe this? belay
        3. -8
          13 September 2023
          You'll get a donut hole, not Putin. And God save you if he falls. There will be no innocent people left.
      2. 0
        13 September 2023
        she doesn’t care about the economy in the country and what will happen to it, her task is to stop inflation, for this she is in demand. And she acts to achieve this goal.
        And what about business, loans, the situation in the country is secondary for her.
      3. Alf
        +6
        13 September 2023
        Quote: Boris55
        she is again going to raise the key rate in order to completely kill all production in Russia, leave the people without work and drive them to overthrow Putin.

        Wasn’t it Putin who called her the best? Didn't he appoint her? Or according to the standard formula about the boyars and the tsar?
        1. 0
          14 September 2023
          Quote: Alf
          Wasn’t it Putin who called her the best? Didn't he appoint her? Or according to the standard formula about the boyars and the tsar?

          No, the Americans called Naibullina the best in the banking sector.
          1. Alf
            +1
            15 September 2023
            Quote: mordvin xnumx
            Quote: Alf
            Wasn’t it Putin who called her the best? Didn't he appoint her? Or according to the standard formula about the boyars and the tsar?

            No, the Americans called Naibullina the best in the banking sector.

            I wouldn't be so categorical...
      4. Alf
        +2
        13 September 2023
        Quote: Boris55
        And we have no control over it..

        You are absolutely right, since there is no council, it means that it must be headed.
      5. 0
        14 September 2023
        Lord, where do you get this nonsense, in addition to the fact that the head of the Central Bank is elected by the State Duma on the proposal of the president, the FSB checks the candidate not just down to his underpants, but looks into all the holes. In this case, if you don’t follow your conclusion, then the Fed controls the entire State Duma, the President and the FSB.
        1. 0
          14 September 2023
          Quote from realing
          The FSB does not check the candidate's underpants, but looks into all the holes

          Eh, you disgusting kindness and babble... FSB, damn it...
        2. Alf
          0
          15 September 2023
          Quote from realing
          Lord, where do you get this nonsense, in addition to the fact that the head of the Central Bank is elected by the State Duma on the proposal of the president, the FSB checks the candidate not just down to his underpants, but looks into all the holes. In this case, if you don’t follow your conclusion, then the Fed controls the entire State Duma, the President and the FSB.

          Can't the president propose another candidate? One that will work in the interests of the country, and not against it?
          Quote from realing
          The FSB does not check the candidate

          The FSB is generally funny. Who does the office consist of? Of those who dissected on Geliki? Will they be crystal clear?
    2. 0
      13 September 2023
      Quote from Uncle Lee
      Aren't you ashamed, gentlemen!?

      If we have the film "Shirley-Myrli" as a national idea throughout the country, to whom is the appeal? lol
  3. +18
    13 September 2023
    Migrants come to us for a better life, and not to die as a turner or milling machine operator at any factory in the Russian Federation. Prisoners of war will also not give more than half of their shift output in 8 hours, because that is not why they surrendered.
    Good machines in factories are occupied for two hundred years in advance. The only vacant machines are where even alimony workers don’t want to work for more than three months.
    1. +5
      13 September 2023
      Well, why did they go to Kim? They will be given wheat, the technology of which they do not have, and they will supply and produce as many shells as they need, but we live in capitalism.
      1. +17
        13 September 2023
        We live in capitalism.
        It seems that during the transition from socialism to capitalism, Russia got lost
        1. +19
          13 September 2023
          Quote: Gardamir
          We live in capitalism.
          It seems that during the transition from socialism to capitalism, Russia got lost

          No, she didn’t get lost, but took her allotted place in the world capitalist system. Don’t you like this place? So this is your problem..
          1. +1
            13 September 2023
            Quote: Quiet Don
            did not get lost, but took its allotted place in the world capitalist system

            I got lost from the word FORnication. This refers to the behavior of our financial authorities
        2. +19
          13 September 2023
          Russia did not get lost, but purposefully carried out an act of involution, that is, regression. Figuratively speaking, it’s the same as if a cow through involution turned into some kind of Triceratops lizard. At first glance, everything is there, there are horns, there is a tail, there are also four legs. And the fact that milk doesn’t give, well, excuse me, you yourself wanted it, because imported milk tastes better. In general, that’s what they fought for and they ran into it. At one plant, we had a mobilization line of imported machines for the production of engines for infantry fighting vehicles. The former owner ordered all the equipment to be cut with cutters and scrapped, which was done. This owner was a deputy and member of the A Just Russia party. So don’t be surprised, in Russia it’s not even wild, but some kind of cave-predatory capitalism. At the helm are former ardent members of the CPSU.
          1. +11
            13 September 2023
            Quote: 2112vda
            at one plant there was a mobilization line of imported machines for the production of engines for infantry fighting vehicles. The former owner ordered all the equipment to be cut with cutters and scrapped, which was done.

            This is where you remember Comrade Stalin and Comrade Beria. And those many nameless security officers who worked in the execution basements.
            1. +13
              13 September 2023
              A relative was telling an interesting story. He works in an organization located on the territory of a plant that produced struts for fighter aircraft landing gear. It started like SVO. They sit and don’t bother anyone. The general and the colonel are filling up. They ask where they can place an order for the same racks. The guys explain that nowhere, these geniuses of military orders are confused. In their papers, this plant is still operating. Sadly.
          2. +11
            13 September 2023
            Isn’t Medvedev a fiery member? Or Putin, who was looking for an “alternate airfield” in the early 90s? Or Chubais, now “Moshe Izrailevich” in an illegal position? The ardent communists were put to death back in 1993, only the “party members” remained.
            1. 0
              13 September 2023
              Some survived, but what's the point? (I know it’s short, but what should I add here?)
          3. 0
            13 September 2023
            Normal capitalist logic. I saw these mobilization powers when I worked at the factory. Picture: the premises of the site, 20-30% of the work is in full swing, that is, components are being produced. The remaining area is tables with machines under covers. Yes, the machines there were from the 70s, but they worked quite well. And all this eats up utilities, that is, heating/lighting, and the units need to be turned on at least once a year. What kind of shishi? Do you think the state will pay for maintaining mobile capacity?
        3. +5
          13 September 2023
          Quote: Gardamir
          It seems that in the transition from socialism to capitalism Russia has lost its way

          Not at all, I just went back one hundred and twenty years ago - the initial period of capitalism (post-feudalism)
    2. 0
      13 September 2023
      I confirm. I personally know the young man. He went to work at a factory and was tempted by a salary of 80 rubles. He was assigned to the broken-down 000K16. He was never able to “catch the moment” of the switch, and quit after 20 days. “Well, in five years I would probably have adapted to this machine” - I quote verbatim.
    3. 0
      December 9 2023
      Quote: Danila Rastorguev
      Prisoners of war will also not produce more than half of their shift output in 8 hours

      In the Gulag and in the zone, they probably also say: we will not increase the norm. There are simple ways to force a person to work.
  4. +37
    13 September 2023
    Here the other day Shpakovsky denounced the Bolsheviks that, oh horror, they sold 6 thousand tons of one Rembrandt to the bourgeoisie, cheaply, for currency for machine tools. The Bolsheviks are bad and illiterate, of course, but what can we call this current porn?!
    1. -13
      13 September 2023
      Well, actually, the squandering of Russian cultural heritage did not play a significant role in the development of the industrial potential of Soviet Russia. Indeed, the cultural treasures that our ancestors had collected for centuries were sold for next to nothing and were stolen. About twenty years ago I carefully studied this issue. You can find a lot of works on this issue on the internet.
      1. +10
        13 September 2023
        Quote: Alexander Kuksin
        Well, actually, the squandering of Russian cultural heritage did not play a significant role in the development of the industrial potential of Soviet Russia.

        No need, even Shpakovsky’s figures say that the Hermitage helped buy at least two factories on the scale of ChTZ.
        Quote: Alexander Kuksin
        Indeed, the cultural treasures that our ancestors had collected for centuries were sold for next to nothing and were stolen. About twenty years ago I carefully studied this issue.
        About twenty years ago you studied something that thirty years ago was stolen and sold for next to nothing?
        1. -2
          13 September 2023
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          No need, even Shpakovsky’s figures say that the Hermitage helped buy at least two factories on the scale of ChTZ.

          This is like saying that burning one million rubles in small bills helped heat the apartment for a while. smile
          The problem is not the fact of the sale - in fact, museums are the state’s moneybox, into which it can climb on the darkest day. The problem is that if it weren’t for self-dumping on the antiques market and working through intermediaries, we could have ended up with twenty factories. But we only received two.
          Moreover, Torgsin, who worked in parallel, gave the country 14 times more.
          1. -1
            15 September 2023
            Quote: Alexey RA
            This is like saying that burning one million rubles in small bills helped heat the apartment for a while.

            If there is no other fuel and it is impossible to buy it, this is one way out. The other way out is to freeze.
            Quote: Alexey RA
            The problem is that if it weren’t for self-dumping on the antiques market and working through intermediaries, we could have ended up with twenty factories. But we only received two.

            The problem is that it couldn’t have been any other way in those years. The Bolsheviks were not allowed into the Kalash line.

            Quote: Alexey RA
            Moreover, Torgsin, who worked in parallel, gave the country 14 times more.
            It was Torgsin who sold the bulk of the antiques - the notorious 6000 tons of Rembrandt.
            And even a million tons of icons and Rembrandts are worse than one Chelyabinsk tank plant built on time.

            By the way, how did it help the USSR and Russia to preserve the Amber Room from being sold before the war?
      2. +6
        13 September 2023
        Another Liberoid propagandist, who at one time read Ogonyok.
    2. AUL
      +8
      13 September 2023
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      The Bolsheviks are bad and illiterate, of course, but what can we call this current porn?!

      Well, in any case, this is not capitalism. The capitalists used to make good machines (and not only) and sell them to us, and now everything is going well for them in this regard. And what we have now, I don’t know what to call censorship. To put it very roughly, it’s gangster chaos. But it's very soft.
    3. 0
      13 September 2023
      The Bolsheviks are bad and illiterate, of course, but what can we call this current porn?!
      So you already called it the right word. Afterwards there will be catharsis with genocide.
    4. +2
      13 September 2023
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      but what can we call this current porn?!

      You gave it the name yourself Yes
  5. +28
    13 September 2023
    Roman said everything right!
    I have a friend who has a decent workshop with machines. EVERYTHING, without exception, is still Soviet-made! He (an acquaintance) employs 10-12 turners, millers, and grinders. And they spin as best they can on these worn-out machines! But you have to spin. This is the only workshop of its kind in the entire region! Of course, not counting agricultural enterprises (state farms), and railway enterprises. d. transport.
    This is the situation: there are a lot of orders, but there is practically nothing to fulfill! And these specialists are spinning as best they can. They are both turners and mechanics who repair their machine tools!
    Well, buying something for such an enterprise abroad is absolutely fantastic!
    And how many such bloodless enterprises are there in Russia?!
    1. +13
      13 September 2023
      The author said a lot, heartfeltly and correctly, but there is a small clarification - sharpening shell bodies is one thing, however, you need to make a projectile from a blank, and the author did not even mention the release of fuses. The author did not mention that the sn7 round must be equipped with explosives, based on the ammunition. In a word, the whole conversation again boils down to one thing - capitalism, managers who are spectacularly mentally defective and what is sacred to capitalism is profit and or steal without getting caught.
    2. +1
      13 September 2023
      Quote: your vsr 66-67
      I have a friend who has a decent workshop with machines. EVERYTHING, without exception, is still Soviet-made! He (an acquaintance) employs 10-12 turners, millers, and grinders. And they spin as best they can on these worn-out machines! And you have to spin.

      I also have an acquaintance. I spat, but I sold two workshops....
  6. +21
    13 September 2023
    It feels like everything is turned upside down. Parasites are held in high esteem and not those who produce the real product. am
    1. ANB
      +5
      13 September 2023
      . Parasites are held in high esteem and not those who produce the real product.

      So this is the meaning of capitalism. In 1991, those who supported Yeltsin (mostly only Moscow) thought that they would be the big-time parasites.
      1. 0
        13 September 2023
        fog of war . Our propagandists boasted yesterday that we were firing twice as many shells as the Pentos expected. and one and a half thousand tanks.... and all the commentators wrote with boiling water...
        I noticed, cheers, the loudmouths from the news page do not communicate with the wanderers - the scavengers
    2. +2
      13 September 2023
      "Hanging in orbit in the cold distance
      Above the world is an artificial satellite of the Earth,
      A planet floats below - on it
      The cities are blooming with a myriad of lights.

      And so that the cities bloom with lights,
      People of labor descend underground,
      And thanks to their great work,
      Factories turn ore into metal.
      Factories and satellite, cars and home -
      Everything was created with the same hard work.
      And we must never forget
      Words of gratitude to working people.

      But there are also such people,
      Who considers greed and cunning to be labor -
      They don’t plow, they don’t sow, they don’t melt metal,
      They just multiply their capital.

      And so it happens that working people
      They build dams, palaces, cities,
      But all the results of the work of their hands
      Suddenly they become someone else's capital.
      There are no visible edges to this misfortune,
      And working people are invariably poor.
      The profit of scammers is very high,
      And working people only get a piece of bread.

      When the rich have their income at stake,
      They start a war among themselves,
      But in every war they always die
      All the same ordinary working people.

      Someday the whip will meet the butt,
      And working people will no longer tolerate
      And they will say sternly: “Come on, gentlemen,
      Give us back the results of your labor!
      Let all your orders die out,
      And creative work reigns in the world!
      And so that no one will ever again
      I didn’t dare profit from working people!”
      People of labor - Andrey Shigin
  7. +13
    13 September 2023
    Good article. But very big. I didn’t finish reading it, but the meaning is clear. If someone doesn’t like the laws adopted by specific people and/or their friends, then why did they choose Edro again almost everywhere? It turns out that everything is fine again
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. +16
      13 September 2023
      Why did almost everyone choose Edro again? It turns out that everything is fine again

      And again they will choose Putin, for the same reason. And the fact that in 20 years of his imprisonment he has achieved everything that they began to achieve when he was a drunk, these are small things, really.
      1. +20
        13 September 2023
        Quote: Dimy4
        And again they will choose Putin

        Don't have any illusions about this. There have been no real elections in the country for a long time
        1. +7
          13 September 2023
          Don't have any illusions about this. There have been no real elections in the country for a long time

          Yes, I’m aware, I just need to call this clownery something, you can’t use swear words, they’ll scold you (but I’d like to be honest).
        2. 0
          13 September 2023
          America opened the same for me, in some country there are “real” elections? Please enlighten me.
          1. 0
            14 September 2023
            In other countries, at least there is competition between elites, when was the last time you didn’t know who would be the president of Russia? At 96? For some reason, no one knows who the next president of the United States will be, not to mention Europe, where elections are much better.
            1. +1
              15 September 2023
              It's an illusion. If you mean the USA, then there are two parties there from the moment of their formation, no one else can get in there, and the change of presidents does not change anything except the presidents themselves. Those upstarts who tried to change something are already far away or under investigation. In England, another “great democracy,” there is not even a constitution, and seats in the upper house of parliament until recently were inherited. Wonderful choice, right? And the king, by the way the supreme commander not only in his own country, but in a dozen others, is generally on the throne for life. Is it really worth breaking wood for such a choice?
            2. 0
              15 September 2023
              In Europe, the State Department says to the Chancellor, are you really up to this?
    3. +7
      13 September 2023
      Quote: AC130 Ganship
      then why did they choose Edro again almost everywhere? It turns out that everything is fine again

      Firstly, they elected not EDRO, but specific people (this is not an election of State Duma deputies).
      Secondly, the opposition parties today do not have those “leaders” for whom it is worth trading for soap.
      Thirdly, (as already noted) when “truth-tellers shoot moose” in an unspecified manner, and popular people (at least Nikolai Bondarenko) move into the background to please the “Volodins”, or receive an outstanding criminal record in order to “not have the right to participate” in the presidential election campaign" (like Nikolai Platoshkin) and no one is fighting for him with all available resources, something is hard to believe in this "communism" with the face of an OLD, VILLAGE PARTNER.
      1. +1
        13 September 2023
        Quote: ROSS 42
        Secondly, the opposition parties today do not have those “leaders” for whom it is worth trading for soap.

        So the opposition is also completely satisfied with the current situation. It’s one thing to sit quietly in the Duma with all the benefits, criticize the authorities without consequences and talk about great development plans New Vasyukov Russia. But it’s another thing to become this power, to hump in the name of fulfilling your plans and decisions and to be responsible for them. Does our opposition need it? The same opposition that demands from the authorities that the authorities should cultivate the opposition! belay
        It’s almost as if Vladimir Ilyich demanded that Nicholas II morally and financially support the RSDLP.
  8. +11
    13 September 2023
    In the title, the second question mark is superfluous... "Where will we get shells tomorrow? In North Korea."

    In general, the problem is known and painful... to solve it, you need the desire of the state first of all, i.e. creation of a program to revive the domestic machine tool industry/allocation of funding and special control by the government and the president.

    After all, you can try to organize the production of, albeit outdated, but your own machines (maybe some factories have not finished everything off, and the technical documentation/production capabilities have been preserved) and at the same time try to create a new generation of machines... but the main thing is that the state has such wish.

    In the same way, the problem with semiconductors and chips, GDP says a lot about technological sovereignty, about the fact that you need to develop your own technologies and not depend on anyone, etc. but somehow import substitution is not particularly active in this area, a point system was invented according to which Chinese goods began to be considered domestic... and Russian industry is not particularly active, it is trying to organize the production of (for example) the same Elbrus processors... albeit at a higher price outdated technical process, but at least our own!

    And in general, there is no visible desire of the GDP and our elite to actively develop precisely such technologies, there is a lot of talk and practically no action... You could put a priority, with the control of the president, on the creation of certain technologies (since in Russia there is no other way) but they don’t do it... on the forums they explain that it is expensive and unprofitable, and we will simply buy the same products in Asia, better) and when the topic concerns the development of Russia as a state, the GDP immediately denies that they will sell the products to us, but no one will share the technology... so It’s probably worth developing technology in Russia and trying to make domestic products (even worse ones), isn’t it?

    Semiconductors/chips/machines - all this can be very expensive and will not pay off in terms of costs, but IMHO the country will have its own technologies, and exchange money from the sale of natural resources for Russian technologies that will remain in the country and which will develop (+ those will provide Russia with technological sovereignty) is worth it.
    1. +12
      13 September 2023
      Yes, he’s a babble... or you haven’t understood in 20 years request
    2. +3
      13 September 2023
      And this is still the same liberal economy imposed on us. With its primitive concept of profitability, when, if you don’t “recoup” your investment the next day, then it’s “unprofitable.” But this can only work in trade, and not in the development of new industries or the reconstruction of existing ones, and, especially, science. I'm not even talking about the fact that even unprofitable production can be vitally necessary for the state as a whole. Like microelectronics, it will never be profitable within the country, and entering foreign markets will require orders of magnitude larger investments.
  9. +15
    13 September 2023
    I won’t speak for all Soviet machine tools, but the Kuibyshev machine tool plant sold CNC machines to Denmark. We love to boast too much to everyone. The pilot landed the plane in a wheat field. He is worthy of all praise. But exploits in peacetime cover up someone’s carelessness. There is silence about this. Now our new machines are appearing. But the prices!!! But before it was an obligation to replace old machines with new ones. Because of this, they gave a bonus. And most importantly, the consumer did not suffer financially from the introduction of the new one. Good article. Necessary.
    1. +5
      13 September 2023
      Quote: Nikolay Malyugin
      But exploits in peacetime cover up someone’s carelessness.

      ...or a deliberately criminal policy of economic development...
    2. +12
      13 September 2023
      I won’t speak for all Soviet machines

      In his younger years, he worked at his native Kirov plant, just on CNC... We had three types of them - completely Mitsubishi, Ivanovo machines with German electronics, and - completely our plants named after. Sverdlova. Yes - bourgeois electronics amazed us with their convenience and beauty, of course we tried to work on them. But - even the simplest parts were produced on Sverdlovsk machines, and I can’t say what happened to them - it was somehow noticeably more hemorrhoids, especially if you adapt to the features of the simple domestic interface. So they knew how to make complex machines, they knew how. Of course, the electronics weren’t great, but not so bad that they were such a failure that they couldn’t be used.
      1. +3
        13 September 2023
        Quote: paul3390
        NC

        I saw lathes, it seems they were made in Ryazan, but with Bulgarian electronics...
        1. +6
          13 September 2023
          Actually, if an extremely convenient portable monitor was unscrewed from the Ivanovo machines, then the only difference in control was that on the German remote control the data was typed on the touch panel, and on the Sverdlovsk ones - with archaic wheels with numbers. Yes, it’s inconvenient, but I didn’t have to do it that often. The essence was the same. I loaded the tape with the program, inserted the instruments according to the technical card into the drum, placed the workpiece on the table, entered the starting commands, and you can go smoke.
          1. -1
            13 September 2023
            Quote: paul3390
            Refilled the tape with the program

            While still at school, I did an internship at the CPC - I brought parts to the machine; the student was not trusted with anything else... But in Soviet times, did machines Mitsubishi we had? It seems like dual-use goods were prohibited for export to the USSR...
            1. +7
              13 September 2023
              Did we really have Mitsubishi machines in Soviet times? It seems like dual-use goods were prohibited for export to the USSR..

              Yes, they were prohibited, but the machines were there, I worked on them myself... wink Moreover, tank production, workshop 480.. laughing

              “The capitalists themselves will sell us the rope with which we will hang them.
              “ — Lenin
            2. 0
              13 September 2023
              While still at school, I did an internship at the CPC - I brought parts to the machine; the student was not trusted with anything else...
              Strange. And we turned on the CPC, quite well. True, they didn’t let us near the CNC, but they worked on regular ones and everyone was released with the 3rd category.
            3. 0
              13 September 2023
              Quote: Luminman
              Did we really have Mitsubishi machines in Soviet times? It seems like dual-use goods were prohibited for export to the USSR...

              In Soviet times, Mitsubishi's "neighbor" - the Toshiba company - with the help of the state arms corporation of Norway (a NATO country!) sold four 9-axis and four 5-axis machining centers to the USSR for the Baltic Plant. The Japanese supplied the hardware, and the Norwegians supplied the brains. Despite the fact that the limit of exports to the USSR was three axes.
              Products with dimensions of 10 meters in height, 22 meters in width and weighing as much as 220 tons went unnoticed across the border, halfway around the world. smile
              It was only the dissatisfaction of one of the intermediaries with the low payment that revealed this scheme. Moreover, when KOKOM members began to dig into the chain, it turned out that the scheme for supplying equipment prohibited for export had been in effect for a long time. The total number of CNC centers supplied was more than 140, and among the recipients were shipbuilders, turbine builders and even the Ministry of Medium Machine Building.
        2. +3
          13 September 2023
          Luminman, as a rule, had Bulgarian drives on their lathes. There were also Soviet ones, but less reliable. On lathes, 16K20 Krasny Proletary, they produced parts with a surface finish of class 14 (I don’t remember the rz value). The racks were NTs-31, NTs-80. NTs-31 had no equal in simplicity and reliability.
          1. 0
            13 September 2023
            Worked with Bulgarian drives. Kemek, kemron that's what they were called
      2. AUL
        0
        13 September 2023
        Well, we also had quite decent CNC stands. Size-2M, 2P22, some others... Even for Ivanovo multi-axis machining centers they sculpted something.
        And one of my friends even figured out a CNC for a moonshine still in his kitchen. I go to work myself, and the process is underway! True, then his neighbors pawned him, and the man suffered greatly.
        1. 0
          13 September 2023
          Quote from AUL
          in my kitchen CNC for a moonshine still

          Nothing complicated - a temperature sensor and a shut-off valve. Purchased from AliEpress. I have the exact same one in my kitchen... wink
          1. +1
            13 September 2023
            Luminman, in the 70-80s of the last century, Ali was not a word at all. They made it themselves! I didn’t see any Mitsubishi machines; there were racks from this company: like panels, screens. The hardware was ours. There were also 2P22 racks, but in small quantities. Mostly NTs-31 or NTs-80. EMNIP NTs-80 was manufactured in Kursk. My friend went there at state expense. He was originally from Kursk, so he went to solve problems, well, to visit his parents.
          2. 0
            14 September 2023
            Just as Gorbachev started an anti-alcohol campaign, moonshine stills appeared in garbage dumps. Both glass and stainless steel... I remember they collected scrap metal, about twenty moonshine stills were collected.
    3. +4
      13 September 2023
      Quote: Nikolay Malyugin
      The pilot landed the plane in a wheat field. He deserves all praise.
      This is just the beginning. It has long been warned that if planes are not properly maintained, they will crash. And branded service, excuse me, is under sanctions. In Iran, for exactly the same reason, the sides regularly fall. Where is import substitution, all those ILs and specifications? But I flew to America with Aeroflot on an Il-86.
      1. +2
        13 September 2023
        Maybe on IL-62?
        The 86th, it seems, will not reach America.
        1. +1
          13 September 2023
          Quote from: ln_ln

          The 86th, it seems, will not reach America.
          I flew with intermediate stops in Shannon and Gander.
  10. +11
    13 September 2023

    And here we have all the signs of an approaching catastrophe, because today Russian manufacturers have nothing to buy machine tools with...! Moreover, the horror is that there is nothing special to buy with this very thing.

    This problem was discussed at VO several years ago...many times.
    Now it has risen with all its urgency before the upcoming trials of our country.
    I was hoping that SKOLKOVO and RUSNANO would give impetus to the development of advanced machine tool manufacturing in Russia... Instead, I hear the president’s speeches that he is surprised by the escape of Chubais and that there is a financial hole in RUSNANO... request...what is it like.
    There is no progress in this area in Russia.
    And modern machines, as I watched a video of their operation, have sky-high capabilities in producing complex parts in a short time... a simple turner and milling machine cannot do this on simple machines.
    1. +13
      13 September 2023
      It turns out you are a naive person. Skolkovo was initially planned as an exhibition and sale of Russian talents abroad. Otherwise, why were there so many representatives of leading companies there? It’s convenient, they gather in one place, hold a casting and take it for yourself. And you can also profit from ideas.
      And about Rusnano it was said long ago that Chubais was put there so that, God forbid, we would not create something serious.
      1. 0
        16 September 2023
        By the way, a relative worked in Skolkovo. First with the Chinese here, then after living with them there for six months, he moved to Londongrad.
    2. +3
      13 September 2023
      Lech, the fact is that you need different machines, CNC and universal ones. There is no point in using CNC to produce one gear. And to cut a 3-start worm, you need a very skilled turner. I don’t know if there are any experienced thermal experts left now who could determine the grade of steel from a spark and harden it accordingly.
      1. +3
        13 September 2023
        Quote: Bumblebee_3
        I don’t know if there are any left now that could determine the grade of steel by a spark

        There's nothing complicated about it. Once upon a time I could do this too...
        1. +1
          13 September 2023
          So the question is, are there such specialists now?
  11. +11
    13 September 2023
    Well, let's count on North Korea.
    Has Russia lifted sanctions against her?
    1. +10
      13 September 2023
      Quote: parusnik
      Has Russia lifted sanctions against her?

      They said no way. They say they will immediately kick you out of the UN! True, they didn’t say who would persecute and why we need this UN.
  12. The comment was deleted.
  13. +13
    13 September 2023
    The author does not listen to the country's leadership at all. They told you in Russian that we will categorically not militarize the economy. Apparently, to develop trade. Here is the answer to all your questions.
    1. +4
      13 September 2023
      The author does not listen to the country's leadership at all. They told you in Russian that we will categorically not militarize the economy.
      good hi
    2. +11
      13 September 2023
      Quote: U. Cheny
      They told you in Russian that we will categorically not militarize the economy.

      Why did they start the SVO then? (((
      1. +6
        13 September 2023
        Quote: Egoza
        Why did they start the SVO then?

        To fight with the West! And for one thing, test yourself for strength in the conditions of hellish sanctions... Well done, President! Knows what to do.
      2. AUL
        +8
        13 September 2023
        Quote: Egoza
        Why did they start the SVO then? (((

        What was needed was a “small victorious war.” But they didn't think it through properly.
      3. 0
        14 September 2023
        Quote: Egoza
        Why did they start the SVO then? (((

        Didn't you get it? Well, look, that’s why they started the first Chechen war.
    3. 0
      13 September 2023
      Quote: U. Cheny
      The author does not listen to the country's leadership at all. They told you in Russian that we will categorically not militarize the economy. Apparently, to develop trade. Here is the answer to all your questions.

      You're wrong here. The fact is that import substitution is taking place on all fronts, and not just through the Ministry of Defense. As a result, our country suddenly began to need much more civilian products of its own production, and the machine park was not designed for this. If we now take away these production capacities from civil engineering, the economy could die completely. As an example, the cars I used used to have German compressors installed (and not just compressors, but a lot of other things). Now it is clear that there are no sanctions and no supplies. Ordered in Chelyabinsk. It seems that they managed to make some kind of ersatz that more or less works - and thank you for that. And you propose militarization, which means redirecting the production capacity of the Chelyabinsk plant to the production of military products. Who will make the compressor for us?
      1. +3
        13 September 2023
        It was said so long ago: whoever does not want to feed his army will feed someone else’s. And during a war with five dozen countries, the question of priority of military or civilian products should not arise.
        1. 0
          13 September 2023
          There is only one priority, whether you can make money or not. For them, military factories make sense if they sell military products. For example, in Ukraine there is a demand for shells
        2. +3
          13 September 2023
          Quote: U. Cheny
          It was said so long ago: whoever does not want to feed his army will feed someone else’s. And during a war with five dozen countries, the question of priority of military or civilian products should not arise.

          The authorities and people of the Russian Federation did not save a single thing on the army. Up to 4% of GDP was allocated for defense, which is 2 times more than required by NATO standards. Another thing is that Russia’s economy is 20 times smaller than that of the West, but here you only have yourself to blame. Take it with you so you don’t fall when walking.
          1. +1
            13 September 2023
            What do NATO standards have to do with it? And what is 4% compared to those billions that were lying in lies in foreign banks (and which were then simply stolen).
  14. +14
    13 September 2023
    Quote: U. Cheny
    The author does not listen to the country's leadership at all. They told you in Russian that we will categorically not militarize the economy. Apparently, to develop trade. Here is the answer to all your questions.

    Well, judging by the statements of Lavrov and Pu, we will develop the Indian economy, where 40 billion dollars have already accumulated, but we cannot withdraw them because of their legislation. They said that someday we will provide you with promising areas of our economy where you can invest. 1 billion greenery is added there every month, so soon we will give another 300 billion, but this time to India.
    1. 0
      13 September 2023
      India's relations with the British are much closer than with anyone else in the world... yet they have never even formally opposed each other in the last decades... and economically India is the second largest source of FDI in the UK, that is The Indian economy is one of the pillars of the English economy and they are very closely connected..
  15. +16
    13 September 2023
    . The banks make minor faces and, hiding a smile (hello, Sber!) speak with regret about the fact that they are here nothing to do with. This is all a government regulator.

    Bloodsucking banks nothing to do with it, since the key rate has increased and they are forced to charge extortionate interest rates.
    Central Bank even more so nothing to do with, since inflation has risen and the ruble has collapsed, Nabiullina is simply forced (in her words) to raise the key rate...
    Everything with us nothing to do with in our bleak situation. And Putin just passed by. Yesterday (on the forum) I simply radiated well-being. He gave me hope for a bright future, which I have been waiting for since the May Decrees.
  16. +21
    13 September 2023
    .
    ...who will be to blame?


    Everything described in the article is objective reality. People in power make decisions that are appropriate for them at a given time. What can you do, this is how they see reality.
    I listened to the President yesterday. General message. Everything is fine. The government and the Central Bank act professionally. The country is going...(I don’t even know where it’s going. Maybe towards capitalism with a human face. I didn’t put quotation marks because some people think that this will happen. They’ve already hinted at compulsory insurance for citizens of their homes in the near future.)

    After reading the article there were no emotions, everything had already burned out. Who is worried about the destroyed industry? Only those who lived in the USSR, only those who built these factories. Only those who worked for them mourn the destruction of industrial enterprises. Today's youth are not worried. They don’t even know that on the site of the Trade Center there was once a powerful modern enterprise producing one or another product. My generation's time is running out. The other day, another classmate was buried. 60 years. Didn't live to see retirement. Sadly.
    1. +2
      13 September 2023
      Even though I haven’t worked, I’m worried. hi "" "" ""
  17. +4
    13 September 2023
    But not our highly respected bankers and financiers. They do everything absolutely correctly.

    Well, let's count on North Korea
    Big Russia can’t, there’s wild capitalism there, but little Korea can, even though they’re hungry, but they’re socialism. Everything is leading to the fact that the sacrifices and efforts of the people are in vain, and it is not profitable for the capitalist.
    1. +2
      13 September 2023
      Quote: carpenter
      But not our highly respected bankers and financiers. They do everything absolutely correctly.

      Well, let's count on North Korea
      Big Russia can’t, there’s wild capitalism there, but little Korea can, even though they’re hungry, but they’re socialism. Everything is leading to the fact that the sacrifices and efforts of the people are in vain, and it is not profitable for the capitalist.

      We do not know the real numbers for the production of shells in Server Korea and the Russian Federation. Most likely, production in the DPRK is very small. But in its reserves there are a couple of million shells produced in the 60s (possibly even from the USSR), which the DPRK will dispose of by supplying our army, and will also make good money on this.
      1. 0
        13 September 2023
        Quote from Escariot
        We do not know the real numbers for the production of shells in Server Korea and the Russian Federation. Most likely, production in the DPRK is very small.

        Perhaps not big. But taking into account the UN sanctions, to which we also had a hand, and the lawyers in the leadership of our country (they know about the evidence), we need shells with either Soviet or Russian markings.
        But you can also decide differently, buy (rent) machines along with the workers, either on Korean or on our territory. Also, of course, a violation of sanctions, but the material evidence will not get to the Ukrainians.
    2. +1
      13 September 2023
      Quote: carpenter
      But not our highly respected bankers and financiers. They do everything absolutely correctly.

      Well, let's count on North Korea
      Big Russia can’t, there’s wild capitalism there, but little Korea can, even though they’re hungry, but they’re socialism. Everything is leading to the fact that the sacrifices and efforts of the people are in vain, and it is not profitable for the capitalist.

      They haven't been hungry for a long time. These are ideas about S. Korea in the eighties and nineties.
  18. +9
    13 September 2023
    To buy a machine through the “back Cyrillic” from Europeans, what do you need?

    Get the hell out of the defective “commodity experts” and “accountants”, and figure out on what basis the country’s resources are enriched by THIEVES and why and on what basis these THIEVES raise prices on tariffs (electricity, fuel)...
    1. +8
      13 September 2023
      Write your conclusions right away - Soviet power urgently needs to be returned. Because with THESE, nothing good is clearly visible ahead for the country and people...
    2. +6
      13 September 2023
      ...why and on what basis do these THIEVES raise tariff prices (electricity, fuel)

      Solarium for 64 rubles, a nightmare! Hello, as they say, collective farms (for example), those that are still alive will soon die! The government will take care of this.
      1. +4
        13 September 2023
        Because any capitalist is only interested in PROFIT. And nothing more. It doesn’t matter how it was obtained and what the consequences of receiving it are. This is the very essence of capitalism.
        1. -2
          13 September 2023
          Quote: paul3390
          Because any capitalist is only interested in PROFIT. And nothing more. It doesn’t matter how it was obtained and what the consequences of receiving it are. This is the very essence of capitalism.

          Greed is a biological feature inherent in all living organisms, but profit is only a way to satisfy this need.
          1. +5
            13 September 2023
            Well, I don’t know... Let’s say I have a cat - it comes to the bowl, eats as much as it wants and leaves. He doesn’t choke, trying to gobble up the whole heap of food, like our capitalists... Because, unlike them, he is a rational being, he understands that gluttony will not lead to good. Kharya will crack. Well, or people will stop feeding such unnecessary food.
            1. 0
              13 September 2023
              This is yes.
              On the other hand, I can understand a little the “bourgeoisie of small-scale tailoring” - those who open another pharmacy and try to squeeze out 150% of the profit - perhaps he is afraid that the “owner” will not want or will completely forget about the “bowl”, but he just wants money and “to Yalta”, because suddenly it won’t be possible to stretch the business for years due to 1000+ factors

              It’s a pity that because of this, workers who are paid meagerly suffer, because they are “consumables” for our bourgeois cat
  19. 0
    13 September 2023
    as an artilleryman said in WWII, there were enough shells after May 9, 1945
    1. +2
      13 September 2023
      With all due respect, my father fought in the artillery. Since the summer of 1943, the shell hunger has turned upside down: we spent and could not spend, the Germans saved and did not have enough.
  20. +2
    13 September 2023
    Our blessed society sat waiting for the coming of the “good Master”...
    And it looks like it will wait. He will come! As they say, “It’s coming!...”

    Just not from the West, but from the East.
  21. +4
    13 September 2023
    The production of capital goods, the former Group A industry, has been in our corner for decades.
  22. +5
    13 September 2023
    These factories were to be managed by the Ministry of Defense, under their leadership. Apparently the problem comes from the Ministry of Defense. Why were these factories handed over to someone else for plunder? As soon as the war began, equipment repairs were required. Everything is obvious here. That such factories should be preserved for the duration of peaceful life.
    They said about the T-80 that it consumes a lot of aviation fuel and stopped producing it, but in fact, it turned out that maneuverability is better due to the engine. tank Alyosha knocked out 8 enemy vehicles due to its maneuverability. Again, shortcomings of the Ministry of Defense, including with regard to infantry fighting vehicles, which they believed that they did not need armored ones, that they would drop everything from landing planes, but they needed them to float. As a result, show where they are needed as a floating device? And why aren't pantones better?
    The factories accumulated debts and were closed due to bankruptcy; all the machines were sold like this all over Russia now.
  23. +4
    13 September 2023
    Savelovsky machine-tool plant Ukhandokali, now in its place is a “technopark”.
  24. +1
    13 September 2023
    To avoid having to send people into an attack, backing it up with “artillery preparation” of four fired shells, it is necessary

    You say this as if it worries those who then write beautiful reports, that everything is there, everything is in full stock, etc., so that those who read them, in turn, would write the same results, and the check that arrived would confirm the correctness of what was written.
  25. +1
    13 September 2023
    It was said long ago: nothing good can happen to us with “them.”
    Oh, it's a pity, because we could...
  26. Eug
    +7
    13 September 2023
    Good article. A friend of mine has been working for quite a long time restoring and modernizing Soviet EXPORT machines, importing them from abroad. In his words, there is always a strong demand for a finished machine. But he no longer focuses on metalworking, but on precision casting with minimal modifications, sometimes without them at all, and on sintering powders. I would call this a “short” (for several operations) robotic line, as for me, it is for shells (without fuses, this is a separate topic) that they are very good. Technically, they are quite simple; when making equipment for them, a not very long chain of precise operations is needed. I don't see any problems in creating something like this. But - a lot of what is happening now in Russia smacks, and quite badly, of imitation of activity... and banks work not to create national wealth, but to facilitate the robbery of most of the
    people...
  27. +12
    13 September 2023
    One question: under whose leadership was the machine tool industry, mechanical engineering, medicine, education, processing industry, etc., destroyed in the country? Who will be responsible for this and when? Or are the people unable to ask anyone, capable only of singing praises to the great leader and calmly expressing 182% support?
  28. +4
    13 September 2023
    Artillery shells, by their nature, are not ultra-precise manufactured products, and their design is quite simple. To manufacture them, it is enough to connect any factories with conventional machines. Remember the military footage of women and teenagers making shells.
    Another way out, if there is not enough domestic production, is to buy, for example, a shell factory in the DPRK into Russian ownership, and produce ammunition there. And the Koreans are clean in the supply of shells and they benefit us. By the way, Ukraine does this; it even sends its specialists and workers to production in the West. soldier
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. +1
      13 September 2023
      Quote: V.
      Artillery shells, by their nature, are not ultra-precise manufactured products, and their design is quite simple. To manufacture them, it is enough to connect any factories with conventional machines. Remember the military footage of women and teenagers making shells.
      Another way out, if there is not enough domestic production, is to buy, for example, a shell factory in the DPRK into Russian ownership, and produce ammunition there. And the Koreans are clean in the supply of shells and they benefit us. By the way, Ukraine does this; it even sends its specialists and workers to production in the West. soldier

      American shells are accurate because they have an M1156 course corrector. And this course corrector costs 20 times more than the projectile itself.
      And of course, North Korea will not give you anything to buy back. We cannot cope with the purchase of real estate and land in Abkhazia, but here is a strategic enterprise of the sovereign DPRK. But selling us old Soviet shells for crisp currency is welcome.
      1. 0
        13 September 2023
        You Jews know everything better from Israel. Maybe you are right. Did you supply Ukraine with 155 artillery shells for crisp currency? Or free of charge out of hatred for Russia?
        But somehow we will decide everything ourselves with the Koreans.. hi
    3. AUL
      -1
      13 September 2023
      Quote: V.
      Artillery shells, by their nature, are not ultra-precise manufactured products, and their design is quite simple.
      But each (except for the “crowbar”) shell has a fuse attached. It is not a product of God knows how complex, but it requires the highest reliability, which is quite difficult to achieve with mass production (millions of pieces).
  29. +3
    13 September 2023
    They fell in love with everything they could. But Svetloliky is a genius and there is no alternative to him. And at the top they know what to do, right, security?
  30. +4
    13 September 2023
    The author is wrong about Chinese machines. They have machines that can compete well with American and European ones. The Soviet base was more than 30 years ago; they have long stepped into the new century. But in our machine tool industry, unfortunately, everything is the same. I don’t know, maybe there is something left somewhere, but most of them re-stick tags or assemble and install finished equipment under a license.
    1. +2
      13 September 2023
      Yes, but Chinese quality has a German price!
    2. +2
      13 September 2023
      Quote: Black cat
      They have machines that can compete well with American and European ones.

      Well I do not know. Our people are now trying to buy from China, it seems to be the same factory as Gavrik’s, but the chimney is lower and the smoke is noticeable. In general, China is more complicated in operation and does not apply for passports
  31. 0
    13 September 2023
    Well, it’s really sad, the only thing I hope for is that now the development of domestic industry will really begin, and demand will help, this is my only hope, it seems that with the same airplanes it gradually came, but with microchips, machines, etc.
    1. +1
      13 September 2023
      Quote: Rumit
      the only thing I hope for is that now the development of domestic industry will really begin

      War always pushes us towards this. I hope so too...
  32. +9
    13 September 2023
    Comments on VO as a separate art form:
    - because of damned capitalism we don’t have machines!!1
    Meanwhile, capitalists in the USA, Germany, etc. they simply produce the best machines in the world.

    What's on people's minds? When two or more opposing ideas coexist in thoughts without any contradictions (I’m healthy, but let’s go to the hospital), this is a fairly reliable sign of schizophrenia. But to go crazy, you need to have this mind first. But it doesn’t look like it here, to be honest.
    1. +11
      13 September 2023
      Quote from kenpachi
      What's on people's minds? When two or more opposing ideas coexist in thoughts without any contradictions (I’m healthy, but let’s go to the hospital), this is a fairly reliable sign of schizophrenia.

      Or maybe, instead of making diagnoses, we should first figure out what people, when talking about capitalism, mean its Russian “incarnation”? Or do you think that capitalism is a universal concept for any country? And what if in the USA, Germany there is capitalism, and we have capitalism, and it creates the same conditions? :))))
      1. -5
        13 September 2023
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Quote from kenpachi
        What's on people's minds? When two or more opposing ideas coexist in thoughts without any contradictions (I’m healthy, but let’s go to the hospital), this is a fairly reliable sign of schizophrenia.

        Or maybe, instead of making diagnoses, we should first figure out what people, when talking about capitalism, mean its Russian “incarnation”? Or do you think that capitalism is a universal concept for any country? And what if in the USA, Germany there is capitalism, and we have capitalism, and it creates the same conditions? :))))

        Those. The problem is not in the social system, but in the Russians, who perverted it? Aren’t you a Russophobe yourself?
        1. +7
          13 September 2023
          Quote from Escariot
          Those. The problem is not in the social system, but in the Russians, who perverted it?

          The problem is that you don’t know the hardware even at the terminology level.
          Social system - (social structure), in the theory of constitutional law, a system of social relations in the state. In one version or another (the fundamentals of the legal system, the principles of the legal system, the social and political system, etc.) it is used in many constitutions of foreign countries. And although the content of this term in the law is different. countries are different, in the broadest sense of O. s. includes economical system of society, social and political. system, foundations of spiritual life (TSL)
          But capitalism is a socio-economic system characterized by the dominance of private property, the free market and competition as the main mechanisms for distributing resources and coordinating economic activity, hiring labor on the basis of its purchase and sale, profit as the driving motive and goal of production . (still the same TSB)
          That is, capitalism is a much narrower concept than the social system.
          However, there are different types of capitalism. Even Western economists cannot agree among themselves about how many of these species there are. For example, Professor Hall in Western Europe alone identifies 4 types of capitalism:
          "four types of market economies: Scandinavian coordinated (represented in Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Finland), liberal market (Great Britain and Ireland), continental coordinated (Germany, the Netherlands, Austria, Belgium) and mixed market (Italy, Portugal, Spain). "
          Professor Bloom identifies three general types: liberal, dependent and coordinated. But, for example, in Weber’s works more than 6 types of capitalism are mentioned :)))
          But in general, the number of different typologies of capitalism is almost equal to the number of learned economists :))))
          As for Russian capitalism, yes, it has indeed absorbed many of the worst features of various models of foreign capitalism (what is good in Russian capitalism is the legacy of the Soviet era, which could not be destroyed) and it is extremely ineffective as an economic system of the state in in general. I gave detailed explanations of this in my articles.
          Quote from Escariot
          Aren’t you a Russophobe yourself?

          If stating the complete ineffectiveness of the economic policy of the Russian Federation and its economic institutions is Russophobia, then yes, consider me a Russophobe.
    2. -3
      13 September 2023
      Yes it is, because a drunk man hits the first person, his wife, she is weaker and will not give back. So are ours, all the troubles are blamed on capitalism and not on the crooked people in power, capitalism will remain silent... and the authorities will thrash
      1. +1
        13 September 2023
        Quote: alebdun2000
        Yes it is, because a drunk man hits the first person, his wife, she is weaker and will not give back. So are ours, all the troubles are blamed on capitalism and not on the crooked people in power, capitalism will remain silent... and the authorities will thrash

        So maybe this means that alcohol is contraindicated for some men, just like capitalism is contraindicated in Russia.

        So your example is only an argument against capitalism!
  33. +2
    13 September 2023
    Quote: U. Cheny
    Chubais was put there so that, God forbid, we would not create something serious.

    Well, he created...a financial hole...now he demands repentance from Russian citizens to the West...the cynicism of this man is simply off the charts.
  34. +1
    13 September 2023
    It’s amazing why no one wants to go to the machine?
  35. +9
    13 September 2023
    I'll ask a question! Tell me, who knows how many grain growers, miners, workers, steelworkers and all those working people who feed and clothe us vacationers on vacation in the Maldives, Dubai, who have mansions in Italy or Spain? Where do media and bureaucratic leaders of the working people rest? And we wonder where the turners and mechanics have gone! When our institutes begin to produce CNC workers in the first three years, and then another three years of operating engineers and another three years of engineers with a scientific mindset, then we can talk about something. And the media backbones will be placed in conditions in which the most talented will survive, and not just any idiots. And today it’s difficult to find a simple turner in the city... there are only troubodours all around!
  36. 0
    13 September 2023
    If this is a problem, why wasn’t it addressed before the start? If there was no such problem before and then it appeared, then it has a first and last name and then you need to name them in the article. This is not a flood/earthquake; no one in particular is responsible for this.
    1. +1
      13 September 2023
      Quote: Igor1915
      If this is a problem, why wasn’t it addressed before the start? If there was no such problem before and then it appeared, then it has a first and last name and then you need to name them in the article. This is not a flood/earthquake; no one in particular is responsible for this.

      Well, you give it. Most readers of this portal are well aware of the problems in industry, defense, economics and politics of the country and at the same time were very happy about the start of the SVO, despite all these seemingly obvious problems. It doesn’t even occur to people that the SVO should have started only AFTER all these problems were solved, and not before. The country's leadership is also people and can also make mistakes.
      1. +9
        13 September 2023
        Quote from Escariot
        The country's leadership is also people and can also make mistakes.

        So that the country's leadership does not make mistakes, thousands of various intelligence officers, hundreds of analysts, dozens of institutes and advisers and several departments work for it, and receive billions from the budget for this.
        If after all this the leadership is mistaken, it should be driven out with pissing rags along with the heads of these departments, intelligence services and analytical bureaus. This is a worldwide practice, if anything bully
      2. 0
        13 September 2023
        Why doesn't he come? - any unresolved problem is human lives, you ask on the front line whether it was worth starting before solving the problems or not
  37. +2
    13 September 2023
    Quote: AA17
    The other day, another classmate was buried. 60 years. Didn't live to see retirement. Sadly

    I believe that with the raising of the retirement age of future pensioners, few will live to see it... request
    It’s sad and sad to look at all this... what kind of future awaits our youth... recourse
  38. 0
    13 September 2023
    In the early 90s, the Germans missed all over Russia the machines they had taken after the war to return back. I remember one thing. They said that the older the frame, the better.
  39. 0
    13 September 2023
    Everything is like in the song “to the ground and then, we are ours, etc., no matter how cynical it sounds, soon there will be no one to work (some are at war, others are on the run, others are office plankton) and yet we will still win! Yes
  40. The comment was deleted.
  41. +3
    13 September 2023
    And the following happened to us: there was nothing to buy and nothing to use.

    The reason for all this lies in the Kremlin.
    People would carry him in their arms if he did at least something good for Russia, and not for his homies.
  42. +3
    13 September 2023
    It’s more reasonable to buy in Korea for a conflict of 3 years than to start up the capacity with demand for 2,5 years of conflict, and then close it a year later...
  43. 0
    13 September 2023
    Quote: Russian quilted jacket
    A relative was telling an interesting story. He works in an organization located on the territory of a plant that produced struts for fighter aircraft landing gear. It started like SVO. They sit and don’t bother anyone. The general and the colonel are filling up. They ask where they can place an order for the same racks. The guys explain that nowhere, these geniuses of military orders are confused. In their papers, this plant is still operating. Sadly.

    Are the general and the colonel failing? The story will go well with a bottle or two. But why organize a booth here?
  44. -4
    13 September 2023
    North Korean ammunition is old and unreliable! Ukraine has already been given a batch of shells for the GRAD MLRS from the DPRK (which was intercepted by the Americans)! In the end, these turned out to be old shells from the 80s! The North Koreans simply don’t have any others!
  45. 0
    13 September 2023
    But Medvedev and others said exactly the opposite.
    Output is growing, there is something to produce and from what.

    Well, and the machines... Yes, China and Korea will help
  46. +3
    13 September 2023
    Although I have known about the trouble with the machine tool industry since the mid-90s, nothing but a curse comes to my heart towards the irremovable. It will burn forever!
  47. +4
    13 September 2023
    So you, dear author, ask the question who will be to blame for the failure of the State Defense Order and you yourself answer: “Of course, the directors of the factories who did not ensure timely replacement and repair of the equipment fleet...”. And you know, I will say that this is the correct answer! Who didn’t take care of replacing equipment during the “fat years”? Who is not concerned about the availability of spare parts for equipment for repair and maintenance? Who wrote out fabulous bonuses for themselves and their hangers-on? Who incredibly inflated the staff by recruiting their relatives and acquaintances for fictitious positions with a hefty salary? Who removed all the specialists from leadership positions, replacing them with sycophants? Apparently all this was done by these same “...super-respected bankers and financiers.” In no way do I want to whitewash our bloodsucking bankers, but it’s also wrong to say that the directors are such poor unfortunates that nothing depends on them! A mess in production is the responsibility of the director!
    1. +4
      13 September 2023
      Here they sat without orders, what kind of shit to renew the park with? You can’t keep specialists small, and the customer, for example, is only the Moscow Region, and they make very specialized products there that the citizen does not need, so I know an example for the citizen, they only developed a bakery, and even then they don’t really buy it, it’s easier to take it from specialized manufacturers. So, what was he supposed to use to renew his fleet of means of production? and now orders have come for volumes that they have never made, and it’s all over, it would be possible to scale up, if not for the sanctions, and even if there are manufacturers of their own, then, as they say, a queue suddenly formed for a couple of years
    2. +4
      13 September 2023
      Quote: Ilya22558
      Who didn’t take care of replacing equipment during the “fat years”?

      Ilya, please clarify when our industry had “fat years”. And if you don’t remember, it’s easy to remind me. There were more or less adequate conditions in the period 2005-2007, but they did not capture the enterprises that made the main products under the state defense order. Because money began to flow into the state defense order around 2009, and not a lot at once.
      And in 2008, a financial crisis struck so powerfully that enterprises went down en masse, barely surviving. The state defense order was manna from heaven at that time, because it made it possible to protect enterprises from bankruptcy. Naturally, the bast shoes could not ring about any developments then - only about survival.
      Somehow we recovered from 2008 - 2014 hit, and again everyone got on board, the crisis of 2014-15 became the hardest test for the industry. Somehow they returned to the pre-crisis level in 2018, and not everywhere. I repeat, this was not about development, but at least preserving what we have. And by 2020, there was a collapse in working specialties, because personnel from the Soviet era began to retire en masse, and no one really trained new ones. Enterprises were forced to take this on themselves. At the same time, by 2020, the State Defense Order has turned into a burden for many enterprises, which no longer brings in any money, just to recoup costs. Against this background, Putin’s reproaches to the head of USC looked very funny - “Why did you conclude unprofitable contracts?” So try not to make a deal, the state is not to be trifled with.
      Quote: Ilya22558
      Who is not concerned about the availability of spare parts for equipment for repair and maintenance? Who wrote out fabulous bonuses for themselves and their hangers-on? Who incredibly inflated the staff by recruiting their relatives and acquaintances for fictitious positions with a hefty salary? Who removed all the specialists from leadership positions, replacing them with sycophants?

      This, of course, also happened. But for the most part, the scenarios were completely different.
      Let's say a crisis came, and in order to survive, the company had to drastically cut down on equipment repairs. Because there is no money, no one is paying, it would be better to raise wages for workers, but for raw materials. The next year the money seemed to appear, but the military representative said, “You’re being naughty! If you got by last year, you’ll get by this year too,” and won’t let you include normal amounts for repairs in the cost of production. And spin however you want. a very simplified example, of course, but...
      1. +2
        13 September 2023
        Andrey, let's be honest, but a metalworking enterprise cannot sit without orders. The services of lathe operators, milling operators, and heat treatment specialists will always be needed. Lack of desire to look for these orders, lack of “resourceful” people in sales who will bring orders and will not deprive themselves. And the cost and quality of the manufactured spare parts will be many times better and cheaper than imported ones. Yes, you need control, you need to comply with production standards, you need to match the ordered raw materials, but the result will pay for these costs. What prevents you from producing spare parts for equipment? The same gears, shafts, etc.? My friend works in metal processing; at one time (2012-2016), he gored the leadership of the rac with proposals to do one thing or another. So management didn’t need it. And they were doing hackwork on their site, heating the shafts, so orders were scheduled for 3 months in advance. And somewhere they found customers, and with whom they needed to share, and they themselves were not at a loss. So it’s still possible? It would just be a desire. I won’t say that this would work at defense enterprises; perhaps the control there is different and you can’t sneeze without a military representative, but...
        As for specialists, here you are absolutely right, there are none, young people are not coming, there is no one and nowhere to teach them...
        1. +3
          13 September 2023
          Quote: Ilya22558
          Andrey, let's be honest, but a metalworking enterprise cannot sit without orders.

          The question is the number of these orders.
          Quote: Ilya22558
          The services of lathe operators, milling operators, and heat treatment specialists will always be needed. Lack of desire to look for these orders, lack of “resourceful” people in sales who will bring orders and will not deprive themselves.

          This is some kind of theory that is not entirely clear to me. But in practice, take one Chelyabinsk enterprise engaged in the production of trailers. A bunch of these trailers were purchased as part of the investment programs of the same subsoil user enterprises; they need to transport heavy equipment on them.
          The crisis struck, so what? Naturally, all customers' investment programs were the first to go under the knife. Everything that is not absolutely necessary was postponed until a brighter future. In total, the company’s order portfolio for the coming year decreased by 40%.
          And this is not a question of resourceful salesmen. If the demand for products across the country falls, then “we divided the orange, there are many of us, and there is only one” it turns out. One company may be able to miraculously maintain sales volumes, but this means that for others they will fall even more.
          Well, the production program fell, and the dollar rose. This means that Nabiullina, who is in hell for absenteeism, will again increase the interest rate. This means that all loans that the company is using at that time will become significantly more expensive.
          That is, my income is falling, but my expenses are rising. And in order to survive this crisis, I have no choice but to reduce staff to the current volume. It’s clear that you try to keep workers until the last minute (in a couple of years, when everything returns to normal, you won’t find them during the day), but there are simply no options, you have to cut them too.
          And all these discussions on the topic of changing the profile... Yes, theoretically, you can try to master the production of some other product in order to retain people. Even if you don’t earn anything at all from this, you can even make a small loss, because people are more valuable. But in fact, the market has long been divided, and in order to compete with someone, you need to invest in the development of new production. And for this you need money, which you don’t have... And it turns out to be a vicious circle.
          That is why the squeals of our would-be government economists that the low exchange rate of the ruble is opening a window for import substitution, because everything imported is starting to become much more expensive, evokes unkind laughter. It’s getting more expensive, but where will an enterprise in a crisis get money to develop production capacity and develop new technologies? In the bank? So, in a crisis, they begin to tear up three-dollar money, and they only give money to replenish the turnover; investment loans are immediately covered with a copper basin.
          Oh, yes, there are also support programs from the state. But they are built in such a way that only an enterprise that has no debts on taxes, wages, etc. can use them, and there are only a few of them in a crisis.
    3. The comment was deleted.
  48. +1
    13 September 2023
    But we got up from our knees, straightened our shoulders, our muscles filled with strength, and so
    Well, let's count on North Korea
  49. +5
    13 September 2023
    What's wrong with asking North Korea for help? Or does anyone really think that we should fight alone against the entire “civilized” world? There are less than 150 million of us, and there are a billion of them! We already lost to them in the Cold War alone. Comrade Stalin also did not fight alone. The USSR had allies in WWII and had Lend-Lease.
    1. +11
      13 September 2023
      Quote: Katya_Ivanova
      Or does anyone really think that we should fight alone against the entire “civilized” world?

      This is how we fight against Ukraine. This is not “the entire civilized world”, not even close. Yes, the Ukrainian Armed Forces are helping. But what they were given is much less than what, for example, the Turkish armed forces have. That is, under any stretch of the imagination, we can say that we are at war with one of the NATO countries, at most.
      1. 0
        13 September 2023
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Yes, the Ukrainian Armed Forces are helping.

        So they will help us. Then it will be fair.
        1. +6
          13 September 2023
          Quote: Katya_Ivanova
          So they will help us. Then it will be fair.

          It is very difficult to understand what is “fair” in your understanding. Ukraine itself is 3,5 times smaller than the Russian Federation in terms of population, and its federal budget is not formed by 40% of the sale of oil and gas, like ours. Before the SVO, our military budget was approximately three times larger than the Ukrainian one. And in theory, we should be much, much stronger than Ukraine. And the help they received does not even out their situation.
          I am generally not inclined to operate “honestly”/“dishonestly” in such matters, but objectively the RF Armed Forces should be significantly superior to the Armed Forces of Ukraine even with the available assistance from Western countries
          1. -1
            13 September 2023
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Ukraine itself is 3,5 times smaller than the Russian Federation in terms of population, and its federal budget is not formed by 40% of the sale of oil and gas, like ours. Before the North Military District, our military budget was approximately three times larger than the Ukrainian one

            So it was necessary to be fruitful and multiply. Who forbade them? And for the army budget it was necessary to steal less! Their government and oligarchs live richer than the oil sheikhs, even though they have no oil or gas! Paradox.
            1. +5
              13 September 2023
              Quote: Katya_Ivanova
              So it was necessary to be fruitful and multiply. Who forbade them?

              Probably the same ones who forbade us. We had a flood of migrants, and ethnic Russians from neighboring countries returned en masse, and Crimea was annexed, but, disgustingly, we never returned the number of the RSFSR in 1991. Today it is 2 million lower than it was in 1991.
              Quote: Katya_Ivanova
              And for the army budget it was necessary to steal less!

              Katya, taking into account the fact that their numbers are three and a half times smaller, and their military budget is three times smaller, it turns out that spending on the military budget per Ukrainian is more than ours. Only we have oil and gas, but they don’t. So, by your logic, it turns out that they steal more from us than from them :))
              1. -2
                13 September 2023
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                but, disgustingly, we never returned the number of the RSFSR in 1991. Today it is 2 million lower than it was in 1991.

                Imagine how much smaller our numbers would be if the Polish gentry would generously allow us to scrub their shovels or work as laborers on their plantations, as they allowed the Ukrainians.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Only we have oil and gas, but they don’t.

                But they dug up the Black Sea, painted the Red Sea and killed the Dead Sea. I don’t understand why such a brilliant people have not yet found oil and gas deposits...
                1. +1
                  14 September 2023
                  Quote: Katya_Ivanova
                  Imagine how much smaller our numbers would be if the Polish gentlemen would generously allow us to scrub their tremors

                  So they didn’t prohibit it - until the Northern Military District. I’ll give you the up-to-date figures :)))
  50. +2
    13 September 2023
    “The achieved level of metalworking is a national treasure.” A HUGE banner at the exhibition "Metalworking-89" on Krasnaya Presnya. I remember this exhibition very well, although so many years have passed. It was SOMETHING.
    And in Soviet times, not everything was rosy with the machine tool industry. In particular with CNC systems.
    Excellent machining centers were made in the country, but, alas, on imported systems and drives.
    I remember an interview with the head of the Ivanovo machine tool shop Kabaidze to the Izvestia newspaper in the late 80s (I won’t give the exact quote, but I can vouch for the meaning): "... they suggested that I use domestic analogues of CNC systems instead of imported ones to save currency. I ask: "What about reliability?" They answer: "Reliability is still lower." I had to refuse: "When the reliability is at the level, then offer it!"

    I was on a business trip to the Lvov Milling Machines Plant. The incoming factory control of the received CNC systems (2S85) from St. Petersburg (LEVZ) rejected 80 (eighty percent!!!) of what was received. The LEVZ representative still lived at the plant, correcting the defects of his native office. And then there were problems with these 2S85 systems until they got used to them.

    I also remember the sad face at one of the exhibitions of a comrade from “Red Proletary” near my center and the dialogue with him: “- What about reliability? - Yeah, IMS was selected for the “war”, then for the nuclear industry they were selected, then they were selected for “medicine” "What's left is for us. Should we continue, or will you guess it yourself?"

    Incl. and in Soviet times there were enough problems with stabilization. The hardware was often very good, but the electronics were a problem.
    1. 0
      16 September 2023
      Quote: tolancop
      I also remember the sad face at one of the exhibitions of a comrade from “Red Proletary” near my center and the dialogue with him: “- What about reliability? - Yeah, IMS was selected for the “war”, then for the nuclear industry they were selected, then they were selected for “medicine” What's left is for us.
      That is, there really was a problem in allocating high-quality radioelements that had passed military approval for those important for industry and, by the standards of the scale of production, for single machines? There were quite a few of them, do they seem to still be accepted in kilograms for radio scrap?
      1. +1
        20 September 2023
        Quote: Expert
        That is, there really was a problem in allocating high-quality radioelements that had passed military approval for those important for industry and, by the standards of the scale of production, for individual machines

        Apparently there was a problem. And I have already mentioned the priorities of the industries.
  51. +7
    13 September 2023
    Of course, you can cry, but first you just need to lift the sanctions from the DPRK. Yes, we still haven't done it. Why? There is no reason to explain this, except two:
    1. Cowardice
    2. Betrayal
    By lifting the sanctions, we will receive weapons and ammunition from them, and we will give them grain and oil. Barter. This, of course, cannot replace the shortage of machine tools, but the possible and probable shortage of shells - yes! Everything is simple and mutually beneficial. And the striped ones will begin to get nervous about the possible transfer of critical military technologies to the Russian Federation to the DPRK.
    1. 0
      16 September 2023
      Quote: Glagol1
      And the striped ones will begin to get nervous about the possible transfer of critical military technologies to the Russian Federation to the DPRK.
      Yes, and I'm nervous about it.
      Secret military technologies do not lie on the road, and you cannot pick them out of your nose or smear them on a plate! - They take years, sometimes decades, to be created through the sweat and labor of thousands of people, and cost billions of dollars! And I, a citizen of our country, would not like to exchange Manhattan for beads just because someone planned such a plan that during the 9 years of the developing conflict, they did not bother to restore or increase the required volumes of production of shells in the country! (If, of course, all sorts of statements and rumors about shell savings at different times, or about any need for the supply of shells from other countries are true?)
  52. +7
    13 September 2023
    Quote: Ilya22558
    So you, dear author, ask the question who will be to blame for the failure of the State Defense Order and you yourself answer: “Of course, the directors of the factories who did not ensure timely replacement and repair of the equipment fleet...”. And you know, I will say that this is the correct answer! Who didn’t take care of replacing equipment during the “fat years”? Who is not concerned about the availability of spare parts for equipment for repair and maintenance?

    There is truth in your statement, but not all of it.
    I had to talk with one of the managers in the late 90s. He inherited a good factory. With all the accompanying junk. It was impossible to fully load the factory; there were simply no orders, since such factories were a dime a dozen. It was not possible to get rid of outright junk and excess space to reduce the cost of production and increase competition. The state did not allow it because “mobil reserves were decreasing.” Like this. The state needs the mobile reserve; the state refused to load it, but the costs of maintaining it were borne by enterprises. The state even often did not pay for products produced and delivered under state orders, while demanding regular payments of taxes and other payments to itself. In such conditions, the owners are enthusiastic about updating, etc. there was no need to wait.
    1. -4
      13 September 2023
      Why then did they grab the plant? Was it bad?
      1. +1
        13 September 2023
        Quote: Process Engineer
        Why then did they grab the plant? Was it bad?

        Was it necessary to close it and cut everything into scrap metal?
  53. +3
    13 September 2023
    Everything is a little different from what dear Roman wrote. The Ministry of Industry and Trade allocates money for updating the machine fleet to defense industry enterprises on a free and interest-free basis. The roasted rooster pecked at the hollow, his eyes bulged and he took off. But everything is as usual unsystematic, chaotic in the mode of plugging holes. With personnel, everything is much worse. If a machine operator can be trained in 3-5 years, unfortunately there is no head of the serial design department or an adequate technologist. The system of succession of generations is broken. There is no coherent industrial policy aimed at systemically improving the economy and gaining at least some real sovereignty for it, and there will not be any because no one needs it. the whole calculation is based on the prospect of measuring and lifting sanctions. Our bosses don’t want to play the long game for one simple reason. Playing the long game and playing for sovereignty requires a change in the socio-economic model of the state, a redistribution of resource flows from private enrichment to the development of the necessary sectors of the economy (public above personal) with the issuance of specific tasks to specific bureaucrats in specific terms and real RESPONSIBILITY, the introduction of a clear and acceptable for the greater mass fellow citizens of the ideology “Everything for the front, everything for victory” and “From each according to his ability and to each according to his work” instead of “thanks to grandfather for the victory” and the cult of consumption, and many other accompanying things (education, medicine, social services, culture), although these accompanying perhaps are basic. That is, a complete restructuring of the state and its governing bodies. But unfortunately, there are no people capable of setting and solving such problems in modern Russia. They were harassed as a class. And modern managers at all levels are petty, pathetic, greedy and stupid...
    1. 0
      14 September 2023
      If we fail to rebuild, there will be no country. This is exactly what the West is trying to do. Our liberals from power have long been in suitcases - real estate over the hill, relatives. If anything happens, they went up there too. This people will disappear, and this. They will live and enjoy life. We need to think and worry about our children and grandchildren and their future. The authorities will soon tell us - they couldn’t......
  54. +2
    13 September 2023
    In any Soviet university and even technical school, future leaders were explained that money is the lifeblood of the economy. Socialist or triple capitalist, it doesn’t matter. And when this money was taken out, the factories were looted, people were kicked out, but there was no money, because... They are disproportionately expensive, then the question is: how can the economy be “lifted from its knees”? Despite the fact that the machine tool industry is a strategic industry, because... machines produce everything that the economy produces. And for the production of machine tools, we need engineers who can design machines and control their production, engineers who provide guidance to workers and highly qualified workers who can understand what and how to produce. And all this requires money.
    But as one funny Dimon said, there is no money for this, and therefore he suggested holding on.
  55. The comment was deleted.
  56. 0
    13 September 2023
    How sad to read! but it's true! When will all our processes be managed not by officials, but by business executives!?
    1. -1
      13 September 2023
      When will all our processes be managed not by officials, but by business executives!?
      Potanin, Abramovich? smile
  57. The comment was deleted.
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  59. 0
    13 September 2023
    1. Skomorokhov, is he a liberal? The DPRK is not a rogue country, but a highly developed socialist country.
    2. Before you say anything, you need to understand the problem. Skomorokhov, as an armchair expert, of course, is embarrassed by this. Note to this charlatan. In the 1980s, the USSR no longer produced CNC machines; they had already been produced for decades by that time, but industrial robots. And Soviet machines were exported, including, for example, to Germany. Internet trash with armchair experts like Skomorokhov.
  60. +3
    13 September 2023
    In principle, everything is correct, but sometimes the author contradicts himself. First, he scolds Soviet machine tools, saying that because of their low level, the Chinese had a low base for the development of machine tool industry. And then he praises: the machines were being exported with all their might. In such cases, it is advised to make a decision: either take off the cross or put on panties.
  61. The comment was deleted.
  62. -1
    13 September 2023
    Those who have been talking about the “post-industrial economy” for 20 years are now causing panic.
    There is access to machine tools in the Russian Federation, China, Turkey, Korea... for the production of tanks, cars - that’s enough.
  63. +4
    13 September 2023
    Quote: Process Engineer
    Why then did they grab the plant? Was it bad?

    What if this little factory gives away a third of its life? And there was responsibility for the team (people), isn’t it funny? Don't you allow it? Walking away might be the easiest thing to do, and perhaps even more profitable. But there were LEADERS who pulled their enterprises out of the hole on their backs.
  64. 0
    13 September 2023
    Quote: Trofim
    With personnel, everything is much worse. If a machine operator can be trained in 3-5 years, unfortunately there is no head of the serial design department or an adequate technologist. The system of succession of generations is broken

    Continuity of generations is also necessary for the worker. So that there is someone to show the TECHNIQUES of work that you will not find in any textbook. Correct errors, etc. In Soviet times, to train workers there was an institute of factory apprenticeship (my way) and vocational schools. Where are they now?
    I agree about the timing of training an adequate technologist. And largely because, from my point of view, a good technologist first had to spend a couple of years at the machine (workbench), incl. deadlines add up.
  65. +6
    13 September 2023
    I'll tell you my story from the plow, so to speak. When I started, the engineers of the company where I worked began to frantically search for someone in the Russian Federation that would be able to produce a number of consumables for agricultural attachments, imported. In particular, pulls are metal sticks without any mechanics. So: Rostov could not provide the necessary strength characteristics, Kirov (St. Petersburg) residents could not, Voronezh could not, and some Muscovites could not. And the only one who could is a man in Kazan, whose workshop is several garages in the city building.
    What I mean by this is that the fact that giant factories cannot do something properly does not mean that no one in the country can. Most likely, they are sitting in the defense industry, which they can only saw.
  66. +1
    13 September 2023
    I can imagine a similar sale of a plant under Stalin and its consequences.
  67. The comment was deleted.
  68. +2
    13 September 2023
    Here they are, the results of the policy of the last 10 years
    A country from the Big 20 list orders shells from a country that has been under a blockade for the last 40 years with a complete ban on trade on the international market, simply because it is a “poor” country that has production. And in the Great and Mighty, they don’t even produce their own machines.
  69. +1
    13 September 2023
    The author invented a problem - in my city there is the largest ammunition supply plant in the country - the way it worked before is the same way now
    1. 0
      16 September 2023
      What are you talking about? Why then did a tourist from the DPRK come - just to admire the exhibition?
  70. The comment was deleted.
  71. The comment was deleted.
  72. +1
    13 September 2023
    The bankers are to blame again. Yes, if you want to know, it’s not about the bankers, but the government must show itself here. In our area, the poultry industry grew on bank loans when the interest rate was even higher. However, the state subsidized the interest rate and loans for the poultry industry were essentially free. No one is stopping us from doing this for the defense industry.
  73. The comment was deleted.
  74. 0
    13 September 2023
    What you need to know about the conversations, promises, slogans of governments and presidents, about import substitution and everything else

    Find a performance by the KVN team from St. Petersburg, the song “about cup holders”, and listen to how it ends
  75. +1
    13 September 2023
    There is a global plan, the so-called agenda, injection, digitalization, decarbonization, depopulation, deindustrialization, defermerization..., and the Russian Federation is involved in it, in terms of almost everything
  76. -2
    13 September 2023
    I see 99% of the comments.
    TsIPSA is already ready for elections in the Russian Federation.
    And every pig calls itself a “Russian patriot.”
  77. +1
    13 September 2023
    Any machine tool building starts with people and bearings. redirect cash flows here, as in IT technologies, and the process will begin. in the meantime.... in my old 1a62, manufactured in 1950, manufactured by the Moscow "Red Proletarian" plant, and lovingly restored, I will provide metal services to the local population. Nowadays there are no fools to stand in a factory “stall” for 50 - 80 rubles, for decades standing motionless on their feet for 8 - 10 hours, earning tramplebitis of the veins for pennies.
  78. The comment was deleted.
  79. -1
    14 September 2023
    Big brother, for information written for the article, the production of Soviet machine tools in the 1990s could not even get into the top 10, and in 1986 Japan sold several five-axis machine tools to the USSR
    1. +1
      14 September 2023
      But after the 80s, everything that could be sold anywhere... And, I guess, not even at high prices. For the purpose of the sale was to make personal fortunes with subsequent departure to the West.
  80. -1
    14 September 2023
    Everything is lost, we will all die, billions of rupees are frozen in India. Nonsense, but it was written diligently. Especially about rupees, about which the Indians themselves said, “you’re healthy, what are you talking about?”
  81. +1
    14 September 2023
    Of course, plant directors who did not ensure timely replacement and repair of equipment. But not our highly respected bankers and financiers.
    Why not a government led by a president?
  82. +1
    14 September 2023
    There is no longer any mental strength to endure all this chaos. The Americans are driving Russia like a herd of cows to slaughter, and at the same time we smile stupidly and wave, as if everything is going according to plan. The country can only be saved by strict discipline imposed with a firm hand and a clear action plan according to the principle - everything for the front, everything for victory. But apparently, this time it was not fate. Russia ended 70 years ago. With the death of Stalin, great turmoil came to Russia, which, in the era of high technology, cannot be overcome by folk heroism alone.

    Yesterday, Defense Minister Shoigu was asked by TV presenter Popov - will we win or not? - He threw up his hands and said that there were no other options. It sounded kind of optimistic. But it seemed to me that it was somehow evasive and uncertain. Alas...
  83. 0
    14 September 2023
    It takes a very long time to bring BC from Korea, there is no point, and our factories can still cope, albeit with a stretch
  84. 0
    14 September 2023
    The author is alarmist!! New machines from the late 80s are lying around in warehouses. But no one needs them!!! Why do I need a new machine for 5 million or more, when the same one from the 60s copes with its duties for the price of scrap metal!!! Only a normal tuner is needed and a turner is needed!!!!
    1. 0
      20 September 2023
      Agree. Late Soviet machines are crap. I say this as a person who worked as a repairman for two years.
  85. 0
    14 September 2023
    Great article, Roman!!!! Right about our factory!
  86. +1
    14 September 2023
    Quote: Ilya-spb
    This is what capitalism leads to!

    It’s the same in Germany, the USA and TD, where capitalism is produced, and machines and equipment are produced and we have no way of reaching them.
    And we, besides calling them stupid pips and lace panties, do nothing. We sell resources, and buy everything from China, even bolts and nuts from us, China
  87. +2
    14 September 2023
    Quote: klkang__
    Big brother, for information written for the article, the production of Soviet machine tools in the 1990s could not even get into the top 10, and in 1986 Japan sold several five-axis machine tools to the USSR

    1. For information, could you please explain who formed this top 10? By what parameters? And is it really necessary to get into this “top 10”?
    2. Japan's sale of several machining centers (with the subsequent scandal that erupted) is not an indicator. The equipment is very specific, not cheap and not widely available. It was cheaper and faster to buy than to develop and manufacture your own similar one. And they bought forging equipment from the Austrians. The USSR bought a lot of things. But he also sold a lot.
    And it is not so important that the Soviet machine tool industry was not at world heights with unique equipment.. It is much more important that it could saturate Soviet enterprises with MASSIVE products.
  88. -1
    14 September 2023
    I can’t help but remember Stalin - the Motherland is in danger! Everything for the front!
    You need to stand at the machine, which means you need to give instructions, for example, after finishing school, give the kids... raise their salaries, provide some benefits. Machine tool production must be revived while the grandfathers are still alive. Only in our city there was a huge machine-building plant with its own machine-tool production. The Central Bank will be subordinated to the Government and there will be money.
    Otherwise, our government wants to win and maintain relations with the West........
  89. The comment was deleted.
  90. 0
    15 September 2023
    Quote: tolancop
    “The achieved level of metalworking is a national treasure.” A HUGE banner at the exhibition "Metalworking-89" on Krasnaya Presnya. I remember this exhibition very well, although so many years have passed. It was SOMETHING.
    And in Soviet times, not everything was rosy with the machine tool industry. In particular with CNC systems.
    Excellent machining centers were made in the country, but, alas, on imported systems and drives.
    I remember an interview with the head of the Ivanovo machine tool shop Kabaidze to the Izvestia newspaper in the late 80s (I won’t give the exact quote, but I can vouch for the meaning): "... they suggested that I use domestic analogues of CNC systems instead of imported ones to save currency. I ask: "What about reliability?" They answer: "Reliability is still lower." I had to refuse: "When the reliability is at the level, then offer it!"

    I was on a business trip to the Lvov Milling Machines Plant. The incoming factory control of the received CNC systems (2S85) from St. Petersburg (LEVZ) rejected 80 (eighty percent!!!) of what was received. The LEVZ representative still lived at the plant, correcting the defects of his native office. And then there were problems with these 2S85 systems until they got used to them.

    I also remember the sad face at one of the exhibitions of a comrade from “Red Proletary” near my center and the dialogue with him: “- What about reliability? - Yeah, IMS was selected for the “war”, then for the nuclear industry they were selected, then they were selected for “medicine” "What's left is for us. Should we continue, or will you guess it yourself?"

    Incl. and in Soviet times there were enough problems with stabilization. The hardware was often very good, but the electronics were a problem.

    Alas, this was the case for civilian equipment. Observance of technological discipline was lame on both legs. “And so it will do...”, “Where will they go, they don’t have the right to refuse our bullshit...”, “But they’ll take it anyway, there’s no one else to take from, we’re monopolists...”. Alas, these costs of a planned economy - the lack of the right to refuse low-quality products - were very harmful.
  91. The comment was deleted.
  92. 0
    16 September 2023
    I do remember. In 85-87 I had a 63-year-old machine. Oh, and I swore. But it turns out he’s not old yet. In 86, a CNC machine from the Odessa plant was installed. New. Everyone here was already swearing. Milling operator, adjusters, foreman, foreman, site manager. Most likely, the higher authorities also swore, but I didn’t hear that anymore. This device stood for almost a year and a half, of which a year and four months literally. Then I joined the army and left completely, so I don’t know how it ended, but I don’t think it turned out well.
  93. +1
    16 September 2023
    It makes no sense to count on help from a state whose money goes to war.
    Is it possible to provide official data for this and last year on the percentage of costs for water and waste water treatment systems from the total amount of the country's budget? And then, to put it mildly, it is very doubtful that “all the money goes to the war.”
    But the problem of replacing the fleet also remains. Machines operating in the enhanced “Really Necessary” mode will, quite expectedly, begin to break down and require repair and replacement. That is, European and American equipment can already be written off in advance. What remains?
    And when the enterprises producing ammunition begin to disrupt the state defense order due to the fact that their machine park is completely worn out, who will be to blame?
    And Volodya has nothing to do with it?
  94. -1
    16 September 2023
    Well, our very responsible people nod at the times of N2 and the crunch of French bread, saying that if it weren’t for the curses of the Bolsheviks/commissars, everything would be wonderful with us. True, in those days, as now, the subsoil was mined by foreign companies under concessions, but there was no industry of its own with machine tools.
    1. +1
      16 September 2023
      Another stupidity. You will also say that we didn’t have smartphones then! And of course, you’ve never heard of factories like Russo-Balt and the number of steam locomotives produced in 1914-1917? Did the aliens supply rifles, cannons, gunpowder?
  95. The comment was deleted.
  96. -1
    20 September 2023
    You didn’t see the late USSR, but I did. I remember those late Soviet CNC machines. They were standing and broken machines from the 60s and 70s were working.
  97. The comment was deleted.
  98. +2
    20 September 2023
    Quote: Tank DestroyerSU-100
    Alas, this was the case for civilian equipment. Observance of technological discipline was lame on both legs. "And so it will do...",

    Objectively speaking, the problems were not only with the quality of electrical radio elements. There were also plenty of design mistakes. In the 2S85 CNC system I mentioned, I replaced the power transistors in the drives by the handful until I installed filters to power the system. In laboratory conditions there were no problems with power supply, but in a real workshop there was a lot of stuff floating around the network. Or the argon arc welding control unit got repaired and the thyristor went out with a bang. After the second repair I began to look into it in more detail. It turned out that between adjacent tracks on the board (one goes to the thyristor UE) the potential is about 600 volts. It worked in the laboratory, but in the workshop, where there was increased dust, humidity and other pleasures, the gap between the tracks simply broke through and the thyristor died. And the fee wasn't even paid! An obvious design flaw. I simply cut off one track, replacing it with a PVC-insulated wire, and the unit was never returned for repair.
  99. +1
    20 September 2023
    Quote: chingachguc
    You didn’t see the late USSR, but I did. I remember those late Soviet CNC machines. They were standing and broken machines from the 60s and 70s were working.

    And I saw the late USSR. And Soviet CNC machines worked. True, a lot of effort had to be put into starting them up and maintaining their functionality until the period of running-in failures passed.
    Then it was much easier. But at my factory there was a special person (I, a great sinner), who looked after them (maintenance, regulations, not too complicated repairs, etc.).
  100. +1
    20 September 2023
    the article is funny; in order to make a projectile, a Chinese machine is enough
    1. 0
      December 9 2023
      Moreover, without any CNC
      1. 0
        February 4 2024
        You can dig a hole with a shovel, or you can use an excavator.

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