Give the fleet helicopters!

91
Give the fleet helicopters!

After the publication of an article about maritime problems aviation, which received a very positive response, I suddenly received a two-page letter from an outraged reader. It contained a very well-reasoned statement of the complaint addressed to me, the essence of which was that I did not pay any attention to helicopters in the service naval. I am correcting myself, because the problems that Anton voiced are really quite serious, and I caught them at the very edge.

So, the problems of naval rotary-wing aviation using the example of the Russian Black Sea Fleet, which, in turn, give rise to problems for the entire fleet as a whole.



Why is the already long-suffering KChF taken as an example? Yes, everything is simple: this fleet, in theory, should conduct the most active operations in the Black Sea, because in reality the work there is through the roof. But... activity as such is minimal.

The cancellation of the so-called “grain deal” brought a statement from the Ministry of Defense that from July 20, all ships in the northwestern part of the Black Sea are subject to mandatory inspection. The ships, it is worth clarifying, are traveling TO Ukrainian ports, and not FROM them. It is clear that Ukraine can export whatever it wants from itself, but what can come by sea to Ukrainian ports from its allies raises certain doubts.

That is, according to this statement, Russian sailors will stop all suspicious ships for inspection.

But it is usually much easier said than done.

Unfortunately, the KChF naval personnel capable of performing such tasks at such a distance from their bases is not only limited - it is minimal. Coast Guard ships of the Border Service are not suitable here for reasons of seaworthiness and autonomy; only patrol and patrol ships of the fleet remain. Moreover, precisely those that are capable of patrolling a certain area of ​​the sea for a long time.

Let's try to see which ships are generally suitable for such a service as long-term patrols in the area to detect and inspect ships with potentially unacceptable cargo?


It is clear that these should be seaworthy ships, since they will have to patrol not near the base, fast, because it will be necessary not only to catch up with the ship subject to inspection, but also to quickly go to the area of ​​​​its movement, which will be difficult to do. There is confidence that the courses of such vessels will be adjusted according to the testimony of the constantly present reconnaissance UAVs of the same United States. And the ship must be armed with a helicopter.

Project 1135 patrol ships. 2 pcs. “Okay” and “Inquisitive”


40+ years old, these ships, keeping in mind the incomparable post-repair condition of the cruiser "Moscow", I would not send anywhere. It is unknown whether there will be Ukrainian or American anti-ship missiles there, but it is better not to risk it.

Project 11356R frigates. 3 pcs.


These, of course, will cope, but here the only question is economics: is it worth sending such ships to perform such dubious tasks? Resource, you know, that’s the thing... Well, it’s like driving a Ferrari to the supermarket for shopping. It's possible, but it makes little sense. Still, the purpose of the frigate is somewhat different. Of course, when there is nothing, a heavy cruiser will do just fine to chase pirate boats, but here the situation is still different. Let's leave it, as they say, in reserve.

Project 20380 corvette. 1 pc.


This is just the ship for just such work. Yes, it has low autonomy, but the amount of weapons that our designers managed to cram into 1800 tons of displacement makes the “Guardians” a very difficult target. Unfortunately, there is only one such ship on the Black Sea.

Project 22160 patrol ships. 4 pcs.


These are the most criticized Russian-built ships; only the corvettes of Project 22386 can compete with them. There are practically no weapons, no speed, seaworthiness is very so-so, but there is great autonomy: the ship can patrol the area for up to 60 days. Yes, during the inspection service there is no particular need for weapons, so these sub-corvettes can engage in just such activity.

In general, the Black Sea Fleet has five ships capable of patrol duty and inspection. The rest, alas, are not suitable. And three frigates behind us in reserve.

Not rich, right? But this is not the main problem.

The main problem is that it is not enough to detect the ship and catch up with it. Further, according to the protocol, you should stop and inspect. Stop it - okay, 14,5 mm machine guns work wonders in this regard and sober everyone up. But then... Then the difficulties begin.

As you understand, the days of “And the frigate and I stood side by side” are long gone, and boarding is not in fashion now. Modern ships are quite fragile and expensive to pile on top of each other. All that remains is a boat or a helicopter.


A boat with an inspection team is good, but the trouble is, restrictions are imposed by rough seas. 3 points or more - that’s all, the boat simply may not catch up with the cargo ship, as it already happened once. And waves of decent intensity are far from a gift for those on the boat.

What if there is more anxiety? Then all that remains is the helicopter. Moreover, there is an opinion that it is precisely this weather that will be used by peaceful dry cargo ships heading empty to Ukrainian ports. The nastier, the better. It is clear, based on what considerations.

So a helicopter with an inspection team will remain the only way to carry out this very inspection.


No, of course, there is another option - convoying the ship to the nearest port and there a full inspection. However, this is fraught (especially if nothing is found) with complex claims and penalties. Diplomacy is not our strong point, so dragging it to ports that are located at a decent distance from the “grain corridor” is not worth it.

That’s why, in fact, they missed the incomprehensible container ship “Josef Schulte,” which had been standing under the Hong Kong flag in the Odessa port for quite a long time.


Such a strange container ship, the name is different on the specialized website... However, this is not our headache. There were 2114 containers on board, as the Ukrainian side said, with cargo. This is a dubious provocation; it is not clear what kind of cargo the container ship, which had been standing all the time at oil berth No. 6, could have been carrying. And grain in containers doesn’t look very good. It is quite possible that it was empty, and was used precisely to see the reaction of the Russian military.

Normal reaction, "Josef Schulte" was on OF Ukraine, and therefore, most likely, there was nothing interesting on it.

But another steamer, the Turkish Sükru Okan, sailing under the flag of Palau, was sailing В Ishmael, and therefore he was stopped.


Our ship (the same “Vasil Bykov”) asked to stop and take on board an inspection party. The Turks turned on the “mine is yours don’t understand” mode and increased their speed. Our guys said: “Okay” and hit us with KPVT. "Sükrü Okan" began to stop, and then the Ka-29 helicopter took over. As soon as he left the deck, it turned out that the Turks not only understood the international code of signals, but also knew how to use radio communications. Such is progress.

The inspection team boarded the cargo ship and, after checking it, allowed the captain to continue moving. By the way, there was nothing prohibited or questionable in the cargo, why it was necessary to behave this way is not entirely clear.

And here is the result of the operation: if there had not been a helicopter on board, “Sükrü Okan” would not have been easy to stop. A hit from even a 14,5-mm machine gun is already a reason for worldwide yelling from the “victims.” But the squad of Marines, having landed on the deck, somehow quickly conveyed to the captain who had lost the shore what he should do. Including signing a paper stating that the cargo is intact and there are no complaints. Whether the captain got hit in the teeth in the process or not will now remain a mystery, but it would be worth stopping by for a better understanding.

That is, in addition to seaworthiness, autonomy, speed and weapons, a ship intended for patrol service MUST have a helicopter on deck. It is specifically designed for inspection work, that is, there must be space on board for a landing force of at least 8-10 people and weapons with which the helicopter can support the landing Marines if necessary.

And this is where optimism ends and universal melancholy and sadness begin. No, in the case of “Sükrü Okan” everything ended well; “Vasil Bykov” had the Ka-29 on board, and even in the configuration of an air assault vehicle. By the way - a rarity in our naval aviation.


We will look at the Ka-29 in more detail in one of the following articles; the car is worth it. Today it is enough to say that the helicopter, to put it mildly, is not new: it made its first flight in 1976. The last Ka-29 helicopter was manufactured in Kumertau in 1991. That is, today helicopters that are at least 32 years old serve in the Navy aviation. Minimum.

What we have


In total, 59 Ka-29 helicopters were manufactured during Soviet times. Today there are 27 left. And these are cars that have undergone major repairs with all the ensuing consequences and have been removed from storage.


27 vehicles for 4 fleets - is that a lot or what? As for me - about nothing. If we talk about the KChF, then the number of carriers there is greater than the number of helicopters of this type in principle.

There is also a predecessor, the Ka-27, which is also a veteran in the ranks of the Russian Navy.


The number is larger; out of almost three hundred Ka-1980s manufactured since 27, 63 Ka-27s and 16 Ka-27PSs remain in service, of which 20 helicopters were upgraded to Ka-27M. But these are mainly anti-submarine helicopters, which cannot be assigned the responsibility of landing inspection teams.


The anti-submarine Ka-27PL is not suitable for such use, since its main cargo is submarine search and detection equipment: the AMP-73 magnetic detector, the Ros-V hydroacoustic station, anti-submarine torpedoes or depth charges. There is no place for landing and cannot be.

There is also a strike Ka-52K. But an attack helicopter is just that: an attack helicopter.


So the Ka-29 is practically the only option for the Navy in this regard. It cannot be said that a helicopter is only about landing. It is quite well armed; the vehicle can carry 4 B8V20A blocks with 80 S-80 unguided rockets of 80 mm caliber. You can take, as an option, 2 incendiary blocks 3B-500, 2 universal cannon containers UPK-23-500, 8 anti-tank missiles "Storm" or bombs with a total mass of 500 kg.

But the main thing is space for 16 paratroopers in full combat gear. It was this option that allowed the crew of “Vasil Bykov” to complete the combat mission.

But I’ll add a fly in the ointment. If you look at the situation realistically, the Ka-29 is clearly too big for such operations. 11 tons of take-off weight, 3 tons on the external sling, 2 tons of troops in the cabin - that's a lot. Well, the Ka-29 consumes fuel, let’s say, according to Soviet standards, when there was no need to save it. After all, this helicopter was not intended for service on corvettes, but on much larger ships.

But the main thing is that the Ka-29s are old, so don’t do anything with them. Fatigue of metal and mechanisms and components will sooner or later lead to accidents and disasters. A patched up helicopter 30+ years old cannot serve like new.


Start restarting production? What about the Tu-160? The option, of course, is so-so, because it is clear that in the three decades since production stopped, much has been lost. The Tu-160s that were assembled in Kazan are from the old Soviet stock, which clearly does not and cannot exist in Kumertau.

But we need a helicopter...


Well, if it is not possible to resume production of the Ka-29, let's think about the options. There is an option, it was even produced in some tiny series. Ka-226TM. A variant of the civilian helicopter Ka-226, which was developed for the Border Service of the FSB of Russia. Precisely for working from PS ships.


The helicopter is small, weighs up to 4 tons, the speed is less than that of the Ka-29 (210 km/h versus 285 km/h), but this is not critical, because anyway, not a single ship will escape. The Ka-226 can carry up to 7 people. This is less than that of the Ka-29, but if we are talking about an ordinary intruder ship, that is, on which there are no armed people, then 7 people are more than enough to inspect it. And you can cover the inspection group with a machine gun from a helicopter in the air. A second crew member can easily handle this.

Considering that corvettes are ships of small displacement, that is, size, such a helicopter, and even with folding blades, is a godsend. It requires less space and can fly much longer distances on the ship's fuel supply. Yes, there is no room for various electronic components, but there are radars and other equipment on the ship.


In general, the fleet really needs such a helicopter. It’s worth emphasizing – a new helicopter. Not morally, but physically. Well, how much longer will we pray for the old Soviet technology? It’s clear that our ancestors did it conscientiously, but you can’t expect service from such a complex machine as a helicopter for half a hundred years? And even in an aggressive sea environment...

Finishing about the Ka-226. A very serious drawback of the car today is considered to be the initial development for imported Rolls-Royce Allison or Safran Arrius 2G1 engines. This is really not good, but back in May of this year, Rostec, through the mouth of the general designer of ODK-Klimov, Vsevolod Eliseev, announced plans to begin mass production of VK-2024V engines suitable for the Ka-650 in 226.

In general, in our navy, no matter what you poke at, we need everything. Where trillions of rubles went is not entirely clear. Have the empty plans for nuclear aircraft carriers with a displacement of 100 tons and nuclear destroyers with a displacement of 000 tons really eaten up new helicopters and torpedoes?
But a patrol helicopter is needed today. And the Katran Ka-52K should also be registered on the decks of our ships. This is the kind of modularity that some of our admirals dreamed of. The corvette goes on an anti-submarine search and takes what will replace (it’s time to replace the veteran) the Ka-27PL. Goes to patrol sea routes in search of violators - Ka-29/Ka-226TM. Covers the landing - Ka-52K. And behind any of these options lies a certain enhancement of the ship’s capabilities. How the Ka-29 enhanced the capabilities of “Vasil Bykov”.

By the way, while we have complete calm in other fleets, why not take such a step as temporarily transferring Ka-29 helicopters belonging to the Baltic and Northern fleets for use by the Black Sea people? Indeed, then it would be possible to easily block all sea routes to Izmail and Odessa.

In addition, even two dozen helicopters will be able to significantly facilitate the patrol service to protect ports from the encroachments of Ukrainian maritime unmanned aerial vehicles, and if we talk about the Crimean Bridge, then it will be a complete benefit.

However, there is one unpleasant thing here. The more these old repaired helicopters work, and they actually have to work, the faster they will need new ones to replace them. And it turns out to be a vicious circle.

But the fleet needs new helicopters. There is no point in hoping that the veterans of the Ka-27 and Ka-29 will accomplish all the tasks on their propellers. Physics vs. We need new rotorcraft.
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  1. +27
    12 September 2023 04: 48
    But the fleet needs new helicopters. There is no point in hoping that the veterans of the Ka-27 and Ka-29 will accomplish all the tasks on their propellers. Physics vs. We need new rotorcraft.

    The ability to create something new in aviation was clearly demonstrated by the epic revival of the An-2.
    Well, there is not enough engineering personnel in Russia that could support the entire industry. Trade is the main type of activity in the new economic formation of the Russian Federation, because only here is guaranteed rapid receipt of income due to the rapid turnover of funds.
    New developments require smart and talented (not cunning or cunning) people with brains, and it is necessary to change something in the system of secondary and higher education. It’s not for nothing that we say:
    No amount of money can buy intelligence!
    Yes
    1. +13
      12 September 2023 05: 57
      Engineering personnel in a society in which the word “authority” means bandits is fantastic.....

      Heh... Heh.. It's funny to read.... Here Yeltsin first betrayed his party to the CPSU, then destroyed the country and shot the All-Russian Congress of People's Deputies.. And at the same time he was the Russian people's favorite.

      Here Prigozhin moved 20 thousand troops to the capital of the country in the rear of the Russian army and became a Russian folk hero....

      Here, in general, everything in the brain is upside down, and you are talking about some kind of engineering personnel...
      1. +7
        12 September 2023 22: 59
        Why is Yeltsin the Russian people's favorite? Is this after the White House shooting? Talk nonsense
    2. +2
      12 September 2023 09: 19
      Quote: ROSS 42
      Something needs to change in the system of secondary and higher education.

      So they change... wassat
    3. +7
      12 September 2023 12: 26
      Just today I read the news about the Duma signing the introduction of paid secondary school education. Checkmate, as they say. No, there will be a minimum set for teaching writing, but that’s all. You can forget about science-intensive areas.
      1. +1
        9 October 2023 22: 01
        Read less. And it’s better to delve into the text. )
    4. +4
      12 September 2023 14: 13
      Quote: ROSS 42
      The ability to create something new in aviation was clearly demonstrated by the epic revival of the An-2. Well, there is not enough engineering personnel in Russia that could support the entire industry.

      Well, there are still engineers, another thing is that they are not needed by the state and state corporations, which must solve problems on a national scale, because the indicator of the effectiveness of effective managers is not in the number of products produced, but in the amount of funds spent.
      What can people do who are not limited by rotten state corporations...

      By the way, this machine is an ideal aerial hunter for light drones outside the front line, and not armored attack vehicles.
      1. +4
        12 September 2023 22: 29
        Great article that raises real issues. As for the shortage of engineers, the problem is not with them, but with the existing oligarchic system with effective managers who can only put on a show and cut budgets.
        For a country to develop, it needs specific goals, long-term plans to achieve goals and financing.

        For example, the situation with a deck helicopter should be resolved this way. The Navy must, based on an analysis of the current state of our fleet and the fleets of potential adversaries, formulate the necessary composition of the fleet and specific requirements for each ship and weapons, including helicopters. Then agree on financing and draw up a specific plan for at least 30 years with the number of helicopters required, then formulate the requirements in this case for a new helicopter and issue technical specifications for its design and development. All this will take a lot of time, of course, but in the end we will get the right helicopter, with the right characteristics and in the right quantities.

        We have a mess and chaos. Instead of real long-term plans, there are momentary wishes of top officials and plugging holes with whatever is at hand. Due to the inability of top officials to carry out long-term planning and build a working system, we have a Black Sea Fleet that is essentially unable to carry out its assigned tasks, which is fully manifested in the Northern Military District. We have nothing with which to blockade a country without a fleet, we could not hold Zmeiny Island, we cannot control oil rigs in the waters, we cannot protect our bases from naval drones, and even the Crimean Bridge is regularly hit from the sea by a country without a fleet.

        All these are failures of the country’s leadership and the fleet, but not of sailors and officers, and certainly not the result of a lack of engineering personnel. For the last 23 years, the country had both personnel and money and had every opportunity to build for all fleets, including the Black Sea Fleet, a sufficient number of combat-ready corvettes and frigates, as well as to develop and build the required number of necessary helicopters. There was just no decision from above.
        1. osp
          +3
          13 September 2023 00: 24
          As for those GAS that were on the Ka-27PL, they were hopelessly outdated 30 years ago - in the early 90s, because they were made on an old element base.
          Now they are not subject to discussion at all - against modern submarines with water-jet propulsion on an electric ship and a hull made of non-magnetic steel, they are completely useless.
          And even more so against underwater drones.

          So we can say that there are no anti-submarine helicopters in the fleet.
          Those that are listed as such are more likely to be involved in patrolling water areas.
  2. -12
    12 September 2023 05: 10
    I can’t imagine why today the fleet (and not only the fleet) needs an attack helicopter? For modern air defenses, it is just an easy target. As an anti-submarine helicopter - yes. For patrolling the water area, too - yes. But it’s worth thinking about a new engine - the fuel consumption is simply crazy, and the avionics, in the light of the latest technologies, also need to be tweaked...
    1. -1
      12 September 2023 07: 46
      The consumption for a gas turbine engine depends only on the weight of the helicopter. A new engine for the same vehicle weight will not give anything in terms of gain. The efficiency of the gas turbine engine has long since reached its maximum; it cannot be done more economically. It’s like for a car, if you want to save fuel, buy a car weighing less than 400 kg, it will consume 2.5 times less than a one-ton car and 5 times less than a two-ton jeep.
      No, of course, you can be puzzled by cramming a diesel engine with an efficiency 10% higher into a turntable, but such a freak will only carry itself - the diesel with its mass will gobble up the entire carrying capacity
      1. +3
        12 September 2023 07: 48
        Quote from vext-tor
        The consumption for a gas turbine engine depends only on the mass of the helicopter

        And also from the brains of engineers...
      2. +6
        12 September 2023 10: 12
        a RED A226 diesel engine was planned for the Ka-03, but... Someone didn’t want the production of modern diesel engines to appear in Russia, and now its creator has stupidly sat down for five years in Germany As German media reported, the Koblenz District Court in Germany on August 30, 2023 sentenced the founder and former owner of the German company RED Aircraft, Vladimir Raikhlin, to five years in prison for illegal exports to Russia from 2015 to 2021 for military use in circumvention of German sanctions produced by this company diesel aircraft engines RED A03
        .
        1. +2
          12 September 2023 10: 52
          Quote: max702
          for the Ka-226 they planned a RED A03 diesel no.

          EMNIP, the Ka-26 has been a gas turbine engine all its life. It was certified for Allison / Rolls-Royce. The version for India had a Safran engine. Well, for the military and faces, starting in 2020, localization is underway for the Klimovsky VK-650V.
          RED A03 was supposed to go on other military vehicles - the Yak-152 training and attack UAVs.
          1. +4
            12 September 2023 12: 32
            EMNIP, the Ka-26 has been a gas turbine engine all its life.


            No, there were two M-14V-26 PDs there.
            1. +6
              12 September 2023 13: 05
              Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
              No, there were two M-14V-26 PDs there.

              My mistake! crying I wanted to write Ka-226.
              The Ka-26 is, yes, a Cheburashka with piston engines. And then they decided to convert it to a turboshaft engine - and they got the single-engine Ka-126, and then the twin-engine Ka-226.
              1. -3
                12 September 2023 15: 46

                My mistake! crying I wanted to write Ka-226.
                The Ka-26 is, yes, a Cheburashka with piston engines. And then they decided to convert it to a turboshaft engine - and they got the single-engine Ka-126, and then the twin-engine Ka-226.


                But again, what does the same wiki write there:
                Taking into account the great demand of domestic and foreign customers, the Kamov Design Bureau developed a new modification of the helicopter based on the Ka-26 - the Ka-126 with a TV-O-100 gas turbine engine with a power of 720 hp. With.

                The first flight of the prototype was carried out in October 1987 by OKB test pilot G. Isaev. The first flight of the Ka-126 production helicopter took place on October 19, 1988.[2]

                The development of the Ka-126 multi-purpose helicopter began at the N.K. Kamov Design Bureau in 1984. Kamov Design Bureau built three prototype Ka-126s for factory and certification tests. 12 production cars were assembled in Romania. The first 10 production helicopters, designated IAR Ka-126, were built in 1991 at the IAR plant in Brasov.


                In 1981, the OMKB became part of the Soyuz AMSTC. Since 1982, joint development of the TV-0-100 turboshaft engine for the Ka-126 multi-purpose helicopter began.

                Design teams from OMKB and AMNTK Soyuz developed two preliminary designs. For discussion by the joint scientific and technical council, OMKB presented an engine layout with an axial-centrifugal compressor, an annular semi-loop combustion chamber and a rotating nozzle - its traditional elements. AMNTK Soyuz proposed a layout similar to the Turbomeca TM-333 engine. At the insistence of Soyuz, this particular engine design is approved for development. As a result, development of a new 700 hp engine begins. under the code “Product 39” and the name “TV-0-100”. Development of a turboprop version is also beginning - TV-D-100 with a two-stage gearbox and a rated power of 710 hp. (539 kW), designed for the use of propellers of both pulling and pushing types.

                The development of the engine was very difficult - OMKB was faced with a large number of defects that had not previously been encountered in their practice. The reason for this was the engine design, which was unconventional for OMKB. The development and refinement of the engine took a long time.

                In 1988, the Ka-126 helicopter with a TV-0-100 engine made its first flight. The engine was certified in 1989. In total, until 1991, 32 TV-0-100 engines were manufactured at the OMKB pilot production. The total operating time of the engines by the beginning of 1991 was 6000 hours, of which more than 126 hours were used in the Ka-1000 helicopter.

                The engine was supposed to be transferred to Romania for mass production. However, due to the subsequent collapse of the CMEA and the cessation of funding, all work on the TV-0-100 engine was frozen.

                The design work on the engine continued through the OMKB. Thus, a gas generator was developed to increase engine power to 830 hp (619 kW) at a pressure ratio of 10,2. The updated engine was designated “TV-0-100F”, and its turboprop version was designated “TV-D-100F”.

                Currently, the TV-0-100 engine and its modifications are not produced due to lack of orders.


                That is, there is an engine that has already passed a number of tests, but instead of being put into production, the development of another one of the same power and other engine parameters has been launched.
                1. +1
                  13 September 2023 13: 45
                  Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                  That is, there is an engine that has already passed a number of tests, but instead of being put into production, the development of another one of the same power and other engine parameters has been launched.

                  As I understand it, this engine was developed under single engine Ka-126. The military will not take a single-engine helicopter - which means that for import substitution they need an engine in the dimensions of the Allison with the Ka-226.
                  The second problem with TV-0-100 is given in your text:
                  Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                  In total, until 1991, 32 TV-0-100 engines were manufactured at the OMKB pilot production.
                  (...)
                  The engine was supposed to be transferred to Romania for mass production. However, due to the subsequent collapse of the CMEA and the cessation of funding, all work on the TV-0-100 engine was frozen.

                  Keywords: Until 1991 year и in pilot production. That is, with a high degree of probability, most of the units and components (and maybe materials) and their manufacturers are no longer alive. Moreover, there was no factory serial production either - which means there is no technical process, documentation for the equipment and its drawings either. There is a handmade KB toy.
        2. +4
          12 September 2023 12: 30
          for the Ka-226 they planned a RED A03 diesel no.


          It weighs 363 kg, versus 63 kg for the Allison 250.
    2. +8
      12 September 2023 09: 39
      Quote: Luminman
      I can’t imagine why today the fleet (and not only the fleet) needs an attack helicopter?

      Only as support for a naval landing operation from the deck of the UDC... But this is not too much of a problem, since I don’t think that the Ka-52 of the Air Force and the Navy are diametrically different from each other. But the problem of the PLO helicopter and the landing helicopter for the Navy is already a serious challenge. Here you will have to create a car almost from scratch, since the Ka-27/29/31 concept is outdated. But be that as it may, they will have to be created; without them, the Fleet will not be able to fully carry out the entire range of combat missions. Regarding the weight of a deck-based helicopter, there is an opinion that a light vehicle will be of limited suitability (small payload and combat radius), especially for operation in the harsh conditions of the northern and Far Eastern seas. Apparently it should be something around 8-10 tons. It’s clear that you shouldn’t suffer from gigantism either; a helicopter should fit into the hangars of all standard Navy warships. But in the current conditions, creating a mass of highly specialized projects is simply unrealistic, and almost criminal, since it is very expensive.
      1. +8
        12 September 2023 10: 59
        Quote: Doccor18
        Only as support for a naval landing operation from the deck of the UDC...

        You can forget about DESO and UDC. The navy needs its attack helicopters to support the marines and coastal troops, who traditionally work in the interests of the army. Fortunately, the fleet has now acquired two corps of coastal troops - in the Baltic Fleet and in the USC "North".
        Quote: Doccor18
        Regarding the weight of a deck-based helicopter, there is an opinion that a light vehicle will be of limited suitability (small payload and combat radius), especially for operation in the harsh conditions of the northern and Far Eastern seas.

        Everything is determined by the weight and dimensions of the equipment and “consumables” - RGAB and submarine destruction weapons. The fleet's specifications are known - the helicopter must be able to "at once" search for a submarine and hit it with on-board weapons. Plus fuel for the estimated radius and patrol time. And somehow I doubt that a light car will lift all this.
      2. +2
        12 September 2023 12: 27
        Quote: Doccor18
        But the problem of the PLO helicopter and the landing helicopter for the Navy is already a serious challenge. Here you will have to create a car almost from scratch, since the Ka-27/29/31 concept is outdated.

        As a single base for a deck helicopter, they wanted something like the Ka-90 with a pusher propeller, but there are no engines for it, and the concept is crude - it has not been tested, not worked out, engines require more powerful ones, but they are not there, and how they will show themselves if they appear is unclear . At the same time, I don’t see that the concept (precisely the concept) of the Ka-29 and Ka-27 is outdated. Firstly, they have standard used engines, especially the engines that now power all our helicopters are 10-15% more powerful than the previous ones. Coaxial propellers, retractable landing gear - everything is fine with this... General layout. But this is something we can and should work on.
        What's bad about the Ka-29? Is it heavy? So he carries more armor than the Mi-24. After all, he took part in the same competition with him - a helicopter infantry fighting vehicle. And it just so happened that he had stronger armor, and took twice as many troops, and no less weapons... well, he was a little late and seemed to lose stability when firing with forward-facing machine guns. Well, this can now be corrected, fortunately the Ka-52 turned out great.
        So I think that without wasting any time, it is necessary to begin work on relaunching the Ka-29 series in an updated form, with modern, more powerful engines, better handling and sophisticated weapons. The Navy needs such helicopters both for MPs and for inspection teams in difficult conditions, and in general for the Marine Corps infantry fighting vehicles. Moreover, there is simply no real alternative. The Ka-90 will work or not, it will succeed or fail, whether as a result it will suit the navy or not – it’s written with crooked pitchforks on troubled waters. And relaunching the updated version of the Ka-29 will not pose any critical difficulties or surprises. And you need to order at least 200 pieces at once. , and then how you like it.
        The second option is purely landing, without armor. This is how they wanted to see the Ka-60\62 - exactly for the MP and Mistral-type UDC. But again, there is no engine for it, which is promised “for next year” ... every year for 8 years now - at least. If the engine appears, maybe the helicopter will fire. It is lighter, cheaper to operate, and so beautiful.
        Ka-27 ... The main thing here is the anti-submarine weapons complex, the quality and combat capabilities of the avionics, and as a platform the Ka-27 is quite suitable for itself. Besides the equipment and crew, it also carries torpedoes and/or depth charges... Or maybe anti-ship missiles, say the X-35 - it has its own radar system, so detection, target designation, defeat. The trouble is that there is no one to deal with all these issues. The headquarters were destroyed, armament issues, promising developments and even determining development prospects and issuing technical specifications were dealt with... by the Department of the Logistics Service of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation. wassat angry This game was invented solely for the purpose of absorbing the Budget and blocking development. The thieves . And that means traitors. Suffice it to remember how they failed to equip the unfortunate 300 thousand mobilized a year ago - they stole EVERYTHING!
        If now they have begun to move their loins about real weapons and the construction of the Army and Navy, this vicious practice must be stopped. The rear service (after a thorough purge of thieves, enemies and embezzlers) should leave only issues related to logistics support, RESTORE THE CHIEF OFFICES to the full extent of their responsibilities and powers and begin work. And technical specifications for the development and purchase of new equipment and weapons should be formed and controlled by the Main Command. subordinate exclusively to the commander-in-chief of the military branch. And he is already responsible for this to the Minister of Defense, the General Staff and the Supreme.
        Quote: Doccor18
        Apparently it should be something around 8-10 tons.

        This is the “Kasatka”, only it has a tail boom with a felestron, so in length it will take up even more space than the very compact Ka-27\Ka-29 when based. But for the UDC and for the inspection teams - quite well.
        So I don’t think there is a need to compose something completely new, from scratch, like “Armata” with “Kurganets” and “Boomerang”. We don’t have time for this (for development, testing, fine-tuning and organizing mass production, mastering it in the Troops, organizing technical support. On the basis of previous helicopters, it is quite possible to deploy the latest weapons systems, avionics, improve the lineup, but at the same time not create any stress and difficulties for industry, the troops/Navy, the personnel training system, the system of basing on ships... And while, according to the latest technical specifications, they will assemble and prepare avionics for the updated weights of naval helicopters, we just need to prepare for the restart of their production at our aircraft manufacturing plants.
        Quote: Doccor18
        In the current conditions, creating a mass of highly specialized projects is simply unrealistic, and almost criminal, since it is very expensive.

        In this case, everything will be exactly the opposite - they have one base (propeller-engine group, layout diagram), the unification can be aggravated for the sake of ease of production and ease of maintenance, and they can be built immediately in full series for the entire Fleet, for a complete update of the entire helicopter fleet, and not order in small quantities. Then it will be more fun for the industry, and it will be clearer for designers... that they should not engage in imitation again. hi
    3. +3
      12 September 2023 10: 44
      Quote: Luminman
      I can’t imagine why today the fleet (and not only the fleet) needs an attack helicopter?

      To support Kamov. smile
      Seriously, PMSM took them because they were already in the series that was being prepared for the ill-fated Mistrals.
      1. +2
        12 September 2023 16: 54
        Does he really need support? It seems that according to the current results on the fields of the Northern Military District, K-52 is the champion of champions.
        1. 0
          12 September 2023 23: 46
          Quote: alexmach
          according to the current results on the fields of the SVO K-52 is the champion of champions.

          Finally, the dispute “who is better than the Mi-28 or Ka-52, and who to buy” has been resolved.
          And for the Mistrals they were preparing not only the ship version of the Ka-52, but also the landing Ka-60 “Kasatka”. It’s a pity the engines didn’t work out, it would have been a beautiful helicopter.
          And now, in order not to leave the Navy without helicopters, it is urgent to revive the production of modernized versions of the Ka-27, Ka-29 and Ka-31.
        2. 0
          13 September 2023 13: 50
          Quote: alexmach
          Does he really need support? It seems according to current results on the fields of the SVO K-52 is the champion of champions.

          That's exactly what is current. And they ordered the naval Ka-52 long before the Northern Military District, when the fate of Kamov was uncertain - the Ka-62 never “took off” ©, army aviation orders for the Ka-52 were in question, the Ka-226T was very difficult to put into production.
    4. 0
      13 September 2023 18: 46
      Perhaps you weren’t told that rough seas are caused by the wind. And the wind is because the trees are swaying. And they sway because the helicopter accelerates its blades on takeoff... What engine are we talking about? Do you want all of that?
  3. +4
    12 September 2023 05: 41
    A boat with an inspection team is good, but the trouble is, restrictions are imposed by rough seas. 3 points or more - that’s all, the boat simply may not catch up with the cargo ship, as it already happened once. And waves of decent intensity are far from a gift for those on the boat.

    The inspection team's boat, the same border ships, can be launched and taken on board while moving, not at maximum speed, of course.
    The boat with the inspection team is directed to the inspected vessel only after control of its stop; the boat is not used to catch up with the violator.
    Control/cover of the inspection team is carried out by the ship's gun system.
    For inspection like "Vasily Bykov" there are 1-2 boats and a helicopter on board.
    Well, if it is not possible to resume production of the Ka-29, let's think about the options. There is an option, it was even produced in some tiny series. Ka-226TM. A variant of the civilian helicopter Ka-226, which was developed for the Border Service of the FSB of Russia. Precisely for working from PS ships.

    what Sea waves on the Beaufort scale of 3, if I’m not mistaken, correspond to a wind speed of 3,5 to 5,5 m/sec.
    Are there naval helicopter pilots at the VO or those who service MDUs (offshore drilling rigs)?
    What is the maximum permissible wind for takeoff/landing on a deck/platform, also for hovering?
    Again, if I’m not mistaken, in critical (emergency) cases it is allowed at a wind speed of 20 m/sec.
    1. +7
      12 September 2023 09: 44
      Quote: Lynx2000
      Sea waves on the Beaufort scale of 3, if I’m not mistaken, correspond to a wind speed of 3,5 to 5,5 m/sec.

      The guys told how on the 27th and even the 25th Kamov they took off from the deck in such conditions that “the designers could have had a heart attack.” winked (again, can a light machine work in such conditions..?)
      1. 0
        12 September 2023 21: 12
        The Ka-27 operates normally up to a wave of 5 points
      2. 0
        13 September 2023 18: 49
        Didn’t the guys tell you that when the surface wind speed is more than 25 ms, even launching an OTR is prohibited? Are you talking about the helicopter?
    2. +3
      12 September 2023 11: 02
      Quote: Lynx2000
      For inspection like "Vasily Bykov" there are 1-2 boats and a helicopter on board.

      Three boats. Two “zodiacs” on the superstructure and a DShL in the stern. True, the DSL can only be used in calm weather - the height of the lapport is too small.
    3. +6
      12 September 2023 11: 02
      Quote: Lynx2000
      For inspection like "Vasily Bykov" there are 1-2 boats on board.....
      Quote: Lynx2000
      Sea waves on the Beaufort scale of 3, if I’m not mistaken, correspond to a wind speed of 3,5 to 5,5 m/sec.

      I’m wondering, will this “Vasily Bykov”, with 3 points, be able to launch the boat?
      1. +6
        12 September 2023 12: 00
        Well, I put a minus, but what I don’t agree with, I wasn’t smart enough to explain?
        Look at the photo: in a calm calm the boat enters the ship's hangar, almost touching the hangar ceiling. How will he get out (or get in) when the sea is rough?
        1. +3
          12 September 2023 13: 46
          Quote: Bad_gr
          Well, I put a minus, but what I don’t agree with, I wasn’t smart enough to explain?
          Look at the photo: in a calm calm the boat enters the ship's hangar, almost touching the hangar ceiling. How will he get out (or get in) when the sea is rough?

          belay Honestly, honestly, not me!!! On the contrary, above I gave out pluses to everyone for their comments on the case. Yes
          If the boat’s seaworthiness is limited to 3 points, then it is logical that the ship’s commander, with such swell (swell), will not allow its withdrawal.
          1. +2
            12 September 2023 14: 03
            Quote: Lynx2000
            Honestly, honestly, not me!!!
            Yes, I’m not against minuses, but when there are no arguments, it’s annoying.
            Quote: Lynx2000
            If the boat's seaworthiness is limited to 3 points.....
            I'm talking about something else, how to unload it when nervous? Look at the size and height of the hangar gate where this boat is supposed to leave. After all, in case of excitement, he will not get out of there (and will not get in), except perhaps with damage to the roof and the equipment that stands on it, the boat itself.
            1. 0
              13 September 2023 13: 57
              Quote: Bad_gr
              I'm talking about something else, how to unload it when nervous? Look at the size and height of the hangar gate where this boat is supposed to leave. After all, in case of excitement, he will not get out of there (and will not get in), except perhaps with damage to the roof and the equipment that stands on it, the boat itself.

              He-he-he... the well-known Klimov has DShL and the impossibility of receiving it in rough seas was one of the standard arguments against 22160. The areas and volumes in the stern were eaten up - and the equipment installed there can only be used in calm conditions.
              And it is impossible to increase the height of the lapport from the overhead line - above its upper edge, the structures of the reinforced deck for container modules begin. smile
              Honestly, it would be better if they put BUGAS instead of DSL.
  4. +5
    12 September 2023 05: 43
    Why only helicopters?

    What we have we do not store
    Having lost, we cry
    (Folk wisdom)

    And yet the followers of the “bad boy” are still in power in Russia.
    1. -1
      12 September 2023 06: 05
      Quote: Amateur
      Why only helicopters?

      What we have we do not store
      Having lost, we cry
      (Folk wisdom)

      And yet the followers of the “bad boy” are still in power in Russia.

      Well, it depends on what you need. If you are going to be a semi-colony of the West with access to all Western benefits, then yes, machines are not particularly needed, but if you are going to build an Empire that will oppose the West, then machines are very necessary, and for the widest possible range of products.
      1. +7
        12 September 2023 07: 06
        Well, it depends on what you need. If you're going to be a semi-colony

        Dear! I recommend that before you write anything, you first learn to read. Then your appeal to your opponent will not look like ordinary stupidity. drinks
  5. +4
    12 September 2023 06: 28
    If the Navy urgently, urgently needs helicopters, then you can simply resume production of the Ka-29.
    Of course, it’s more difficult with new helicopters. But everything can also be solved. Who is stopping you from creating a group of designers and technologists to design helicopters for the fleet, from modern materials and modern equipment. The problem is where to find Kamov and Mil. Engineers from God, not sociologists, economists and journalists. soldier
    1. +4
      12 September 2023 06: 44
      You just need to resume....it just won't work. Many technologies have been lost (as the most famous case: Energia-Buran), there are no engineers/technologists, there are no workers in the required number...
      1. +1
        12 September 2023 14: 00
        Not everything is so scary and lost. Everything that was once put into service and is still standing, all the drawings and technical processes are preserved, and not in one copy. Peter the Great ordered this by decree. Here we can modernize. It is possible and necessary to get the drawings and make a Ka-29 or another Ka number if it satisfies the performance characteristics of our time.
        I will repeat once again on this site, what kind of leader are you if you cannot organize, even from scratch, even from existing drawings and technologies, the production of the necessary machines and mechanisms. soldier
    2. +4
      12 September 2023 12: 39
      yeah, just resume - they threatened to resume production of the MI-14 five years ago or even more, and where are they? But no.... hi
  6. +4
    12 September 2023 08: 23
    This is what the vacillation in our heads led to. Ka 60 and Ka 62 were needed. But the military transporter had to be made on the basis of the Ka 50. Engines plus transmission. And now there would be a normal helicopter.
  7. -7
    12 September 2023 09: 49
    The Ka-226 is a further development of the Ka-26, and even with foreign engines.
    As an ersatz in the conditions of the KChF, you can replenish the Mi-8, the range is enough, but we don’t have enough helicopters in the army, what can we say about the fleet.
  8. 0
    12 September 2023 10: 07
    Why does Russia even need the Black Sea Fleet from the point of view of state interests? Back in Soviet times, the Black Sea Fleet was deciphered as “what is the fleet, what is not the fleet”
    The Black Sea is a closed water area in which ships are locked in the event of any conflict. In 1915, the world's most powerful British fleet was unable to pass through the Dardanelles.
    Ships of the Northern and Pacific Fleets can be transferred to any point in the world, while it is more difficult for the Baltic Fleet to enter the world's oceans, and almost impossible for the Black Sea Fleet.
    Russia has owned an “unsinkable aircraft carrier” since 2014. The Bastion coastal complex with Onyx-M missiles, located in Crimea, will reach the farthest reaches of the Black Sea; in the near future they promise to adopt a ground-based version of the Zircon anti-ship missile; if this is not enough, there is also aviation with anti-ship missiles.

    The missile ships and marines of the Black Sea Fleet are a consequence of the inertia of thinking of an elderly leader who loves to host naval parades and seamen are much more comfortable serving in Crimea and Novorossiysk than in Severomorsk, but what is the benefit for the state from satisfying these ambitions? The SVO showed the flawed nature of the very concept of large ships being in close waters.
    Of course, patrol boats, minesweepers, etc. are needed, but this is not a fleet, but a flotilla, like the Caspian flotilla.
    1. +5
      12 September 2023 11: 18
      The Black Sea Fleet is needed at a minimum because it is the only one that can quickly move into the Mediterranean Sea. Yes, entry into the Mediterranean Sea may be restricted to Turkey. But other fleets, in order to get into the Mediterranean Sea, will need to achieve such results that SEVERAL countries would not interfere with them. While the Black Sea Fleet only needs to negotiate with Turkey. And I’m not even talking about the distances to the Mediterranean Sea from the Black Sea and from the regions of other fleets.

      At the same time, the Mediterranean Sea itself is necessary. At least there are several countries that are not yet our allies, but at least friendly. And we should seek the security of these countries for our strategic and economic benefits. This is Egypt, which is one of our largest buyers of our goods (though mostly weapons), and this is also a country where many of our people vacation. And most importantly, Egypt owns the Suez Canal, an important transport artery of the world.
      The second Syria, at this point in time, does not bring any benefit to the country, but if ours seriously take up the restoration of peace (now Syria is mainly a training ground for the Aerospace Forces and a place for pumping oil to our PMCs), then as a result we will get a friendly government that provides us with a port for ships of the Black Sea Fleet (and in the future the construction of a full-fledged naval base), with the borders of countries such as Israel, Turkey, Jordan, Iraq and Iran. At the same time, Syria for us, if a stable life is restored, will begin to recover. And this is an opportunity for our economy to grow through active trade with Syria. This is the opportunity to sell large quantities of construction equipment, sell vehicles, sell construction raw materials, build various infrastructure facilities, sell textile products, etc. Syria gets a source of resources for restoration and growth, and we get a market for our own goods for the growth of our economy (unless again most of the profits are pocketed).

      Libya was once friendly and neutral to us. But in the absence of a political solution and the presence of sufficient force in the Mediterranean, there is no Libya there. Now, in fact, it is worth recognizing that Libya is now 2 different countries, irreconcilable with each other. But everything could have been different
      1. +4
        12 September 2023 13: 26
        Quote: Mustachioed Kok
        Yes, entry into the Mediterranean Sea may be restricted to Turkey. But other fleets, in order to get into the Mediterranean Sea, will need to achieve such results that SEVERAL countries would not interfere with them. While the Black Sea Fleet only needs to negotiate with Turkey.

        What kind several countries? Passage through Gibraltar is free. But the regime of the Straits is regulated by the well-known Montreux Convention with strict conditions that close them to warships of the warring parties, even if Turkey itself is not at war.
        However, the warships of any belligerent Power shall not have the right to pass through the Straits, except in cases falling under the application of Article 25 of this Convention, and also in the case of assistance provided to a State that has been the victim of an attack, by virtue of a mutual assistance treaty binding Turkey, concluded within the framework of the Statute of the League of Nations, registered and published under the provisions of Article 18 of the said Statute.

        Despite the prohibition of passage established in paragraph 2 above, warships of belligerent powers, coastal or non-coastal to the Black Sea, separated from the ports of their main parking lot, may return to these ports.

        That is, in the event of any conflict between states, the Straits will be closed.
      2. +1
        12 September 2023 20: 35
        Quote: Mustachioed Kok
        But other fleets, in order to get into the Mediterranean Sea, will need to achieve such results that SEVERAL countries would not interfere with them. While the Black Sea Fleet needs only Turkey
        Under the USSR, no one was going to come to an agreement: Turkey is a NATO member, so they would have walked through boiling water. By the way, for this purpose, the Black Sea Fleet developed landing forces and means, so that if in the ruins of Istanbul someone interferes with the passage of the fleet, then there would be someone to resolve the issue.
    2. +2
      12 September 2023 20: 34
      Quote: Ivan Seversky
      The SVO showed the flawed nature of the very concept of large ships being in close waters.

      What does "big" mean? Cruisers and destroyers? Or are frigates also big?
      Quote: Ivan Seversky
      Of course, patrol boats, minesweepers, etc. needed

      For what? A couple of destroyers of the adversary will drown them like kittens.
      Quote: Ivan Seversky
      there are also aircraft with anti-ship missiles

      Will aviation be able to operate in any weather?
      Quote: Ivan Seversky
      The Bastion coastal complex with Onyx-M missiles, located in Crimea, will reach the farthest reaches of the Black Sea

      What about enemy submarines?
      Quote: Ivan Seversky
      In 1915, the world's most powerful British fleet was unable to pass through the Dardanelles.

      What about the Turkish fleet (a NATO member, by the way)?
      Quote: Ivan Seversky
      SVO showed

      The Northern Military District has not yet shown anything new in the field of the navy, everything is the same: the fleet must be balanced (a combination of combat-ready surface and submarine forces, reconnaissance and aviation, an experienced headquarters and excellent communications). As for the emergence of new methods of warfare (underwater, surface and air strike and reconnaissance drones), they did not completely change the basic postulate of naval strategy: there is no supremacy at sea without a strong fleet.
  9. +4
    12 September 2023 10: 09
    The problem I see here is not with helicopters, but a problem with the lack of engineers who will design them, and the lack of qualified personnel who will produce them. You must solve problems at their roots and not wonder why the other end of the stick is crooked.
    1. +1
      12 September 2023 16: 13
      Well, here it is as always. The shortage of helicopters and their quality is a consequence problem. And the causal problem is education and the economy!
  10. +4
    12 September 2023 10: 13
    A prototype of the 252 helicopter took off on August 8, 1973. The development of a helicopter to replace the Ka-25 began at the Kamov Design Bureau back in 1968 under the designation “252”, that is, 5 years from board to takeoff - Without computers and other newfangled things. Lamprey project to replace the Ka 27, PL and other modifications. The first information about the development of a new multi-purpose helicopter appeared in 2015. By 2023, the result was only a mock-up. The merchant will not develop a new product with a return period for costs and benefits exceeding 1 year.
    Brezhnev saw the Ka 50 at an exhibition in the form of a model.
  11. +5
    12 September 2023 10: 17
    Oh. There are two frigates 11356 in the Black Sea Fleet, not three, one is stuck in the Mediterranean (Motreux, have you heard)?
    20380 - none (since the corvette for the World Cup was built after the start of the Northern Military District and cannot get there by rivers due to its displacement, and through the Bosphorus due to Montreux).
    So all patrols (oddly enough!) are carried out by patrol ships. They were scolded and scolded, but they turned out to be in great demand, almost irreplaceable.
    1. +9
      12 September 2023 13: 45
      Quote: keleg
      So all patrols (oddly enough!) are carried out by patrol ships. They were scolded and scolded, but they turned out to be in great demand, almost irreplaceable.

      Well, yes. That is, when the remnants of the Japanese garrison on Iwo Jima attacked American tanks with bamboo spears, it was not because they ran out of cartridges and their tanks were knocked out, but because bamboo spears during WWII “turned out to be in great demand, almost irreplaceable.”
      1. 0
        17 September 2023 15: 14
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Quote: keleg
        So all patrols (oddly enough!) are carried out by patrol ships. They were scolded and scolded, but they turned out to be in great demand, almost irreplaceable.

        Well, yes. That is, when the remnants of the Japanese garrison on Iwo Jima attacked American tanks with bamboo spears, it was not because they ran out of cartridges and their tanks were knocked out, but because bamboo spears during WWII “turned out to be in great demand, almost irreplaceable.”

        Andryushka, where is your aircraft?))) And what is the contribution of the fleet to this war besides the fact that it is huddled at its bases? And in fact, it can only play into the hands of the enemy in an information war, when ships are attacked by drones. In short, everything is as I told your brotherhood of flotophiles in my articles.
  12. -2
    12 September 2023 10: 18
    In comparative tests, the KA-29 trashed the MI-24, but the troops went with the MI-24 because MIL.. A similar picture was with the Ka-50, who turned out to be right, we now see.. Therefore, it is now necessary to start producing the KA-29 with taking into account improvements over the past years. http://www.airwar.ru/enc/sh/ka29.html
    1. -3
      12 September 2023 10: 28
      During comparative tests, the KA-29 trashed the MI-24, but the troops went with the MI-24 because Mil..


      Young man, do you even know that the Mi-24 began operation in 1972, while the Ka-29 made its first flight in 1976? lol
      1. +3
        12 September 2023 11: 17
        Indeed, the Mi-24 began its life in the army before the Ka-29. But look on the “web” and you will find that a comparison was made and the testers came to conclusions not in favor of the Mi-24. But unfortunately for the Kamovites it turned out the way it is.
        1. -4
          12 September 2023 12: 18
          Indeed, the Mi-24 began its life in the army before the Ka-29. But look on the “web” and you will find that a comparison was made and the testers came to conclusions not in favor of the Mi-24. But unfortunately for the Kamovites it turned out the way it is.


          I don’t need to look for anything in the “web”, because armchair pilots can’t tell me anything new.
          The only thing in which the Ka-29 is superior to the Mi-24 is the static ceiling. Despite the fact that this advantage is not critical even for the conditions of Afghanistan. In other respects, the Kamov car is inferior.
          Actually, this is the Kamov version of the Mi-4AV, Mi-8TV, Mi-8AMTSh line, that is, an armed multi-purpose vehicle, which, like any ersatz, cannot completely replace a combat helicopter.
          1. 0
            12 September 2023 20: 12
            There at the end there is a link to the “Corner of the Sky” .. Mil is following in the footsteps of the office with bright faces and the right genes. A moment and the result will be the same .. The Ka-52 in the Northern Military District proved everything to everyone, and how many lives in Afghanistan the spacecraft would have saved -29 instead of the disabled MI-24, but there was no corruption in the USSR.. Yeah...
            1. +2
              12 September 2023 22: 10
              There at the end there is a link to "Corner of the Sky" I would like to read... Mil is following in the footsteps of the office with bright faces and the right genes. Blink and the result will be the same.. The Ka-52 in the Northern Military District proved everything to everyone, and how many lives in Afghanistan would have been saved by the KA-29 instead of the disabled MI-24, but there was no corruption in the USSR .. Yeah...


              Young man, I don’t need links to opuses written by scholars like you. I flew through both Afghanistan and Chechnya on the Mi-24.

              And I know the capabilities of this machine much better than those mentally disabled people who write opuses about the superiority of the Ka-29 over the Mi-24.
              However, I am waiting for facts from you where the Mi-24 could not cope in Afghanistan and where the Ka-29 would have surpassed it, namely regarding lives not saved. I'm already tired of your empty chatter.
              1. -1
                14 September 2023 07: 50
                On the Internet, my friend, everyone is equal .. And boasting about “achievements” is bad manners .. In one word, “You say that too!”
                1. 0
                  14 September 2023 10: 07
                  No, young man, they are not equal. I don't hide behind anonymity.
                  And don't shy away from the question:
                  However, I am waiting for facts from you where the Mi-24 could not cope in Afghanistan and where the Ka-29 would have surpassed it, namely regarding lives not saved. I'm already tired of your empty chatter.
  13. +5
    12 September 2023 10: 41
    Coast Guard ships of the Border Guard Service are not suitable here for reasons of seaworthiness and autonomy

    Seriously?
    The FSB on the Black Sea has 6 PSKR pr. 22460 (one of the representatives of this project is the well-known “Emerald”). Cruising range - 3500 miles. Autonomy - 30 days. Declared seaworthiness - the ship will be able to serve in sea conditions of 6 points, while maneuvering freely.
    There are practically no weapons, no speed, seaworthiness is very so-so, but there is great autonomy: the ship can patrol the area for up to 60 days. Yes, during the inspection service there is no particular need for weapons, so these sub-corvettes can engage in just such activity.

    That is, unarmed 22160 can be sent for inspection. But armed 1135 is not possible, because:
    It is unknown whether there will be Ukrainian or American anti-ship missiles there, but it is better not to risk it.

    Interesting logic. smile

    The main problem of 22160 is that any increase in the patrol’s air defense puts an end to inspection activities. Because the only place to place air defense reinforcements is a helipad.
    1. +5
      12 September 2023 11: 55
      Quote: Alexey RA
      That is, unarmed 22160 can be sent for inspection. But armed 1135 is impossible

      what 1135.....here we have 4 Buyans and 2 Karakurts missing somewhere.....but then a new Guardian appeared from somewhere??? And the Albatrosses completely hid!!!
      1. +4
        12 September 2023 13: 55
        Quote: Serg65
        here we have 4 Buyans and 2 Karakurts missing somewhere.....but then a new Guardian appeared from somewhere???

        Well, sending “Buyans” for inspection is sadism. Autumn in the Black Sea is not for river missile carriers. smile
        "Karakurt" does not have a helicopter - only a boat.
        But we know where the corvette came from - this is the well-known "Zealant Mercury" wink . On 13.05.2023/XNUMX/XNUMX it became part of the Black Sea Fleet. He was handed over to the fleet... but I haven’t seen any messages about his transfer yet.
        Quote: Serg65
        And the Albatrosses completely hid!!!

        Why are you torturing pensioners? They all already over thirty, they are not just a reserve, but cutting has been waiting for a long time. This is 61 and 1135 good - they had few exits. And 1124 ran to the OVR regularly.
        1. +2
          12 September 2023 14: 33
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Autumn in the Black Sea is not for river missile carriers.

          Until the end of October they are the kings of the sea! wink
          Quote: Alexey RA
          "Karakurt" does not have a helicopter - only a boat.

          Does this prevent them from patrolling the surface of the sea? 40 years ago, Black Sea minesweepers in the Persian and Aden Gulfs somehow didn’t bother with this...
          Quote: Alexey RA
          "Zealant Mercury"

          I am aware of his documentary entry! bully
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Why are you torturing pensioners?

          An old horse doesn’t spoil a furrow, the SKR-6 is a great example of this! The homeland is in danger, Inkerman will wait for now!
          Quote: Alexey RA
          61 and 1135 are good - they had few exits

          How to say! In the old days, both singing frigates and Petrels were rare guests in the Sevastopol bays! And for the Black Sea Albatrosses, tension was mainly with the arrival of newly built first-rankers to the outer roadstead, and, of course, commercial flights to Tartus!
          1. 0
            13 September 2023 14: 00
            Quote: Serg65
            Does this prevent them from patrolling the surface of the sea? 40 years ago, Black Sea minesweepers in the Persian and Aden Gulfs somehow didn’t bother with this...

            It doesn't hurt to patrol. But carrying out a mandatory inspection of a stopped vessel is a very good idea.
  14. +2
    12 September 2023 10: 46
    Well, normal, full-fledged K-29s should also be put into production, along with light ones.
    Naturally, not an old project, but a new one, updating the avionics, adding lightweight composite parts to the body.
    And 29 and 27 and 31 need to be put into production, naturally according to updated designs.
    Moreover, the series should be decent, at least a couple of pieces per year for each fleet, and at least 1 (possibly without anti-submarine ones) for the Caspian flotilla. That is, at least 26 turntables a year, it’s clear that they won’t be able to handle that much right away, but in 2-3 years you can reach this pace and maintain it for 10 years and then a decrease in these orders (well, work only for the larger northern fleet, and maybe more Pacific Fleet. 350-400 helicopters (all types 27/29/31(m)) would, in principle, cover basic needs, and most importantly, due to drilling helicopters, the fleet would receive decent awareness. And we need a lot of such helicopters...
  15. +2
    12 September 2023 11: 43
    I agree about the Ka-226, for ships of ranks 2 and 3 it is what you need. 7 landing personnel is enough. But the VK-650 engine has not been completed, I think this is the problem. The plant in Kumertau can produce Ka-226 at a rate of 3 units per month; fine-tuning the VK-650 is also important for Ansat. Not in the series yet...
  16. -1
    12 September 2023 12: 15
    Quote: Mustache Cock
    The Black Sea Fleet is needed at a minimum because it is the only one that can quickly move into the Mediterranean Sea. Yes, entry into the Mediterranean Sea may be restricted to Turkey.


    Practice is the criterion of truth. With the beginning of the Northern Military District, Turkey closed the Bosporus to us and permanent operational connections in the Mediterranean Sea are ensured by the Northern and Baltic fleets. According to international law, Gibraltar cannot be blocked, unlike the Bosporus.

    As for the “allies”: I see Russia has only one ally - Belarus. Syria: a freeloading parasite that has nothing but Islamists and synthetic drugs. African countries and Central Asia also basically want to grab something for free from us. You can and should trade with them, but only for currency, and not as a non-repayable loan, and especially not to help anyone recover; we ourselves have plenty of what needs to be restored within the country.
  17. +1
    12 September 2023 12: 20
    Roman, all this rubbish can easily be stopped by the withdrawal of the submarines of the Black Sea Fleet to the sea, with the order to act according to the “right of unlimited submarine warfare.” But helicopters are needed: You are right.
  18. +4
    12 September 2023 13: 18
    The horror of the situation is that conditions have been lost in absolutely everything you touch. There are no engines, gearboxes, machines, nothing. Even the cast iron valves are Chinese. Complete deindustrialization. That’s why everything is needed, and the Soviet legacy will not last forever....
  19. +1
    12 September 2023 14: 48
    Where is the obeschen Lamprey?!
    TTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
    1. +2
      12 September 2023 20: 51
      The Ka-27 was put into service 13 years after the start of development. And this is in the powerful industrial Soviet Union. The start of work on Lamprey, according to various sources, dates back to 2014-15. Now we can estimate the timing, adjusted for modern reality, of course.
  20. +4
    12 September 2023 15: 52
    It’s strange that the USSR, which, according to Solntsiky, only knew how to make galoshes, had everything, and so much that they still haven’t worn it out, but in Russia, which has risen from its knees, there is nothing missing.
  21. +3
    12 September 2023 20: 09
    The Kama remnants will continue to fly until they begin to fall apart in the air, like Mig29 did in its time.
    Of course, nothing will be transferred from the Baltic and Northern Fleet. Simply because the grain deal is a temporary issue. Like Thekla’s relationship with Vasily. Today I won’t give it. And tomorrow, if you take me to the cinema and to dance, then maybe I’ll give you some.
  22. +3
    12 September 2023 21: 13
    The Navy needs a Navy.
    The body will not work on one organ.
    1. 0
      13 September 2023 18: 43
      The fleet must first understand why it is needed and what it needs for this. And prove this concept of development to those who make decisions and allocate money. And all we see is uncontrollable throwing from side to side.
      Down with the OVR ships... ahh!!! everything is gone, OVR ships are urgently needed.
      We need to modernize anti-submarine aviation as the basis of anti-submarine warfare... we are finishing the program after 8 aircraft.
      Let's consistently develop the corvettes 20380-20385-20386... fraction of the program, unstick the dumplings, smoke into the chimney, firewood into the original, we order 20380, but no, we order 20385 again.
      We are completing 11356 - we are not completing 11356 - we are completing 11356 - we are not completing 11356.
      The new SSBNs must be covered by the new SSBNs... okay, let’s build strategists, and then provide cover later.
      We are modernizing the “loaves”... not modernizing the “loaves”.
      We drag the nuclear submarine along the Northern Sea Route from Kamchatka to Severodvinsk... and write it off there.
      Let's build modular patrol officers... and don't order modules for them. Let's set the patrol officers the task of fighting piracy... and send 1155 to the shores of Africa, and the patrol officers practically never show themselves further than Tartus.

      And all this time, 40% of strategic security units remain in bases and go to sea with virtually no support or cover. Because the MPKs are dead, there are new technical units “in trace quantities”, the Pacific Fleet has one or two live SSBNs on 5 SSBNs, and even the Kuril Straits cannot be blocked by the existing surface forces.
  23. +1
    12 September 2023 21: 51
    "Give the fleet helicopters!" - the voice of one crying in the wilderness. And so with everything, in all industries and directions.
    1. 0
      14 September 2023 00: 29
      Dear Ivan F! And what did you want in a country of clan-capitalist capitalism, where everything and everyone is “sharpened” for “grandmas”, at any cost... And only wholesale and retail trade and, above all, energy resources can provide a lot at once... And Are you talking about “helicopters for the fleet”... The aviation industry has been ruined with the addition of the word “actually”. If it weren’t for the SVO, they would never have remembered about airplanes and helicopters... They would have bought Airbuses, Boeings, Robinsons, Bells for petrodollars... And the Aerospace Forces and the Navy would have continued to fly " "upgrade" of the USSR aviation industry... Why are we indignant? In order to fill the budget without really “stressing” over the revival of economies (the launch of new production in industry and agriculture), we simply “raise” the exchange rate of the dollar and the euro... And “woo-a-la” - Min. Finn reports that the budget is again in surplus... For the war, in Ukraine - money - as much as you want. You don’t even need to turn on the machine... But the prices in stores are “flying” with the prospect that they will “fly away” even higher... That’s how we live... Who needs these helicopters! Everyone in the Government is happy... But the creation of helicopters is yet another “challenge” with unclear deadlines, with an unclear result... We must wait... And who should we entrust?
  24. +1
    12 September 2023 22: 20
    I am pleased with the comments of those who served in the Navy of the USSR and the Russian Federation. Everything is substantive and well-arranged. The rest of the comments can be thrown into the “captain’s scupper”.
  25. 0
    12 September 2023 23: 31
    give...who from where? and who will tell you where the allocated money disappeared? Ours is already ashamed to even watch how his mouth opens and carries a blizzard, and a wild one at that. It would be better as usual... somewhere from a bunker, I allow it, I launch it. for more unfortunately
  26. 0
    13 September 2023 23: 55
    The problem raised in the article by Mr. Skomorokhov is as old as the world, but it is very good that it is being voiced and voiced.... The problem is serious, pressing, both within the framework of naval aviation and within the framework of the creation of new types of military and civil aircraft . What appears in the domestic sky in recent years is, at best, an “upgrade” of flying models, with rare exceptions, or the implementation of developments and pilot projects of the socialist aviation industry.... One gets the impression that the design schools of Mil, Kamov, Ilyushin , Tupolev, Yakovlev, during the years of capitalist “formation” of Russia, they lost personnel, qualifications, scientific and production bases, and, most importantly, the desire to create something fundamentally new... During the times of the socialist aviation industry, each battery had in its “portfolio” projects, development of aircraft devices carried out on an initiative basis, some of which were even embodied in “bronze and marble” and passed the first stage of testing, which allowed the battery to be constantly in good “sports shape” and quickly “put young designers and engineers on the wing” and in the state orders to implement these projects in whole or in part, which made it possible to achieve impressive results.... Judging by the current times, where everything is “tailored” to the dollar (euro) and where the head of the JSCB is “ruled” by accountants or managers from banks or “appointees” from famous Russian families, our aviation industry looks very “modest”, seeming to be in a position of “rising from its knees”... This problem is systemic, which must be solved in an expedited manner... In my opinion, the first and most important question is frames. Without reviving design schools, attracting young and talented personnel to the industry, creating material and moral incentives for them, Russia will continue to “upgrade” the socialist Air Force and Civil Air Fleet of the USSR or smear “snot and tears”, as with the IL-112... And the spacecraft -65 is promised by 2025 - everyone needs new domestic avionics, acoustics, electronic warfare, on-board reconnaissance and target designation equipment - on a domestic element base....
  27. +1
    14 September 2023 03: 00
    I risk bringing down the wrath of the waterfowl community of the forum, but I will say it. The fleet will not have ANY helicopter. And the call in the title is the voice of one crying in the toilet.
    And it’s not even about the technical school and the number of engineers. And not even the absence of engines. Even though this is all important.
    The main problem of the naval helicopter is a problem that the Kamov Design Bureau encountered back in the USSR period, and which it was never able to solve - a POOR series. Even in the USSR with its planned economy, the Kamovites had a problem finding related organizations and serial manufacturers for their helicopters. NO ONE needs complex products in a series of a couple of dozen pieces.
    And this is under the USSR. What can we say about the modern Russian fleet? Who will undertake to create equipment for the production of helicopters, which are needed 1-3 per year? Who will do something for them, some systems, components? Nobody needs such a product. I have said this several times in the topic about marine diesel engines, and I will repeat it now - the modern Russian fleet is a hopeless customer. Contacting him is not profitable and is simply dangerous for business. No one knows which way their naval snobbery will take the admirals at the next turn. After they expected to equip warships with engines produced by NATO countries, one can expect anything from them.
    The fleet almost dragged Kamov's design bureau to the bottom. It’s good that the Kamovites managed to get involved in the competition for an attack helicopter. True, they failed, but at least they survived. Otherwise, most likely there wouldn’t be a design bureau now. The fleet, like an anchor, pulls those who contact it to the bottom.

    If the fleet has a chance to get a new helicopter, it will only be if the Kamov Design Bureau (and there is no doubt that the fleet needs a coaxial helicopter) receives an order from the army. It is from the ARMY, and a deep by-product of this order could be a deck helicopter. The Lamprey project, I think, will not leave the design stage. At the pace of delivery of new ships that the admirals took with their jumps on projects, no one will make any new vehicles for them. There are 25 helicopters left, they will be used until the last one falls into the sea. And as soon as it falls, the admirals will jump up and down with a crazy gleam in their eyes, demanding “YESSS!”

    There is an exit? Of course have. First of all, it is necessary to shake off the hands of all those involved in expanding the lists of NK projects. To knock it back a lot, for about 8 years. Create a single project for each class of ships, maximally suitable for implementation now. And start building. And at the same time, start knocking on the thresholds of ministries and departments with a project for a universal transport helicopter of a coaxial design for the army and navy, in the hope of catching its tail. It will be a miracle if the project succeeds, since the army does not have an empty niche for a new helicopter. But suddenly. Then, under an extremely fortunate combination of circumstances, in which the current management of the Kamov Design Bureau does not screw the canopy towards the next “project for the foreign market”, the fleet will receive a new helicopter in 10 years.

    And without this nothing will happen. Well, unless the Ka-226 happens, but again, it is not at all clear who will become the main customer of this machine. Because the customer is from the fleet, like a bullet from snot.

    Alas.
  28. 0
    17 September 2023 07: 31
    Ka-226, hang at least one container with GSh-23 and a unit with NAR S-5, otherwise who will sink the drones hi
  29. 0
    20 September 2023 14: 02
    Forget about helicopters. Demand drones and means of combating them.
  30. 0
    16 November 2023 13: 40
    Let's master and modernize the old; at this stage, the weapons and electronics are quite new.
  31. 0
    5 December 2023 21: 44
    It is clear that Ukraine can export whatever it wants from itself,

    This is what is not clear. If there are hostilities, in fact a war, then why do we allow the enemy to export anything at all, much less bring it into their ports. This is some kind of nonsense. How are we going to defeat the Nazis then? If we made a big mistake and did not occupy Odessa, Nikolaev, Ochakov and Izmail in due time, then at least we blocked or destroyed their entire port infrastructure in these cities. Why do we stand on ceremony with these fascists and do not block their entire Black Sea coast by installing minefields and total control of all incoming and outgoing ships. This is what our Black Sea Fleet should be doing, and not pointlessly standing at bases and bays. Otherwise, why would it be needed at all? To hold parades and passively wait for something to arrive on his ships again? If the Banderaites had their own fleet, they would not hesitate to organize a blockade and continuous shelling of the Crimea and our entire Black Sea coast. It’s strange, after all, we Russians behave and fight. We are always afraid of something.