Shooting from tanks from closed positions: it's good when you have a smartphone and a drone

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Shooting from tanks from closed positions: it's good when you have a smartphone and a drone

It is no secret that Tanks, being the main striking force and the “steel fist” of the ground forces, during a special military operation in Ukraine they began to be used en masse to solve tasks that were not entirely typical for themselves. We are talking about shooting from closed firing positions, which was once the domain of exclusively cannon and rocket artillery.

In the distant past, this practice was considered futile, and detailed instructions and provisions for firing outside the “see-and-shoot” zone disappeared from the instructions and rules for tank crews almost fifty years ago.



But times change, and long-forgotten old things become relevant again, especially when you have a smartphone at hand and a drone is flying in the sky.


We didn’t see any prospects before


It is worth noting that the use of heavy combat vehicles of this class for firing from closed firing positions (PDO) cannot be considered some kind of innovation, and even more so the invention of a special military operation in Ukraine. At least, if we talk about the domestic Armed Forces, the large-scale use of tanks in a similar role became quite common even during the Great Patriotic War.

This especially concerned massive fire preparation before an attack on the enemy’s defense in depth, when everything that could send a projectile over a considerable distance was used, from mortars and howitzers to self-propelled guns and tanks. At the same time, the latter acted as a kind of addition, providing primarily a greater density of fire, and not its “spot” effectiveness.

Nevertheless, in the post-war period, the acquired experience of involving tanks in non-standard tasks was treated with interest and even the corresponding teaching aids and instructions were developed, which explained the basic principles and features of firing with PDO. And not in the direction of “wherever God sends” and “if only it doesn’t come our way,” as was the case on the fronts of the war that ended, but like artillery - at the given targets with the highest possible accuracy.

Thus, detailed instructions on this matter were available in the training manual “Firing from tanks and self-propelled artillery from indirect firing positions” from 1958. And then in the “Manual for Fire Control of Ground Artillery” and in the “Rules for Firing Tank (PST-74)” of the seventies.


But no matter how many educational books you write, the main problem - the training of crews and tank commanders in artillery science - cannot be solved by publishing brochures and Talmuds. After all, shooting from closed firing positions is, first of all, shooting on a map, which requires special equipment, as well as certain knowledge and skills in coordinating fire, calculating target coordinates, azimuth, range to it, corrections and everything else.

An azimuth indicator, which is used not only to determine the position of the turret relative to the tank body, but also to aim the gun in the horizontal plane. It is divided into two scales: a coarse scale with a division value of 1-00 (one hundred thousandths) and an arrow made in the form of an outline of a turret and a cannon, and a fine scale with a division value of 0-01 (one thousandths) and a large arrow.
An azimuth indicator, which is used not only to determine the position of the turret relative to the tank body, but also to aim the gun in the horizontal plane. It is divided into two scales: a coarse scale with a division value of 1-00 (one hundred thousandths) and an arrow made in the form of an outline of a turret and a cannon, and a fine scale with a division value of 0-01 (one thousandths) and a large arrow.

Moreover, the data obtained must be correctly interpreted and transferred to the means of aiming the gun of a combat vehicle, which is much less accurate than in artillery, which consists of an azimuth indicator that provides horizontal guidance, and a lateral level - a device for vertical guidance.


A side level installed on a seat on the swinging part of the gun on the gunner’s side. It has a coarse counting scale (semicircular) with a division value of 1-00 (one hundred thousandths), as well as a flywheel with a fine counting scale with a division value of 0-01 (thousandths). For one revolution of the flywheel, the pointer on the coarse scale moves one division. After setting the required parameters, the gunner must move the gun to the required position, guided by the bubble level - the bubble in the ampoule should be in the middle.

A side level installed on a seat on the swinging part of the gun on the gunner’s side. It has a coarse scale (semicircular) with a division value of 1-00 (one hundred thousandths), as well as a flywheel with a fine scale with a division value of 0-01 (thousandths). For one revolution of the flywheel, the pointer on the coarse scale moves one division. After setting the required parameters, the gunner must move the gun to the required position, guided by the bubble level - the bubble in the ampoule should be in the middle.

All these circumstances determined the main condition for such events - artillery specialists had to participate in the preparation of tank crews to hit objects invisible to sight on the spot.

In peacetime, somewhere on training grounds such a practice was still feasible, but in a hypothetical war it was simply impossible to obtain from anywhere a sufficient number of trained artillerymen for tank formations. Therefore, this scenario, when tanks take the place of howitzers, was considered critical - as they say, if there is no fish, then there is no fish. However, ultimately, this topic was generally recognized as unpromising back in the seventies.

However, many decades later, in 2018, they tried to evaluate the capabilities of a company of T-90 tanks and crews not very familiar with artillery at the Prudboy training ground, comparing their work with a battery of Msta-S self-propelled guns.


The tank crews were given three main tasks: hitting individual targets at medium firing distances, suppressing the enemy command post, and conducting barrage fire. They couldn't cope with any of them. Overshoots and undershoots of projectiles reached values ​​of 1 meters, and deviation along the front - up to 100 meters. At the same time, given the weak skills of the commander in adjusting fire, even attempts to make corrections during shooting did not correct the situation.

A full description of the experiment can be found in the article "Firing from tanks from indirect firing positions, pros and cons", a link to which can be found below, in the "Sources of Information" section.

Fire accuracy has increased


A reasonable question may arise here: since the accuracy of indirect fire leaves much to be desired, then what is the point in using tanks in this way?

Just five years ago, this might have seemed like a fantasy, but during a special operation, tankers began to show very acceptable results in hitting targets hidden from the gunner’s eyes. Of course, they are very far from the performance of self-propelled artillery mounts and towed guns, but the fire efficiency was many times higher than the depressing indicators that were demonstrated at the training grounds.

The crews do not study artillery science in depth at training centers and schools, and the tank fire control systems did not receive any accurate sights designed exclusively for shooting with PDO. Everything is much simpler here - life has been simplified Drones and smartphones/tablets.


Unmanned aerial vehicles, even for civilian purposes, have radically changed the course of hostilities in the special operation zone in Ukraine. Dropping various types of explosive devices on the enemy’s heads, defeating armored vehicles with “flying grenades” on FPVdrones, reconnaissance and coordination of unit actions - a very wide range of tasks for remotely controlled “buzzers”. But they also help tankers a lot.

Inspecting the area from a bird's eye view, the drone operator acts not only as a scout, but also as a spotter. Despite the fact that none of these products is equipped with artillery fire control means, the “top view” and the ability to fly close to the object under fire allows us to provide more or less accurate data on the nature of the dispersion of shells in meters.

T-90M fires from a closed firing position
T-90M fires from a closed firing position

In addition, quadcopters, in addition to most FPV drones, have on-board navigation receivers, so when flying directly over a target, the operator can receive the target’s coordinates. So a reconnaissance officer and an artillery observer rolled into one, no less.

Smartphones and tablets are already helping with numbers.

If earlier, in order to aim tank guns from closed positions, one had to struggle with determining the azimuth of the target, resorting to artillery devices such as compasses, calculating the range and other fun, now everything is solved by simply entering data into a specially designed calculator in the form of an application on the phone and using offline kart.

Such software, coupled with an artillery notebook, was widely presented to artillerymen, but today is also available to tank crews. Among them, for example, are “Armor” or “VZHIK”. This, of course, does not exempt you from the mandatory presence of basic skills in using the azimuth indicator and the side level of the gun in tanks, but it completely solves the lion’s share of problems with mathematics and guidance.


In the simplest version, the algorithm of actions in this software consists of entering your own coordinates, the coordinates and height of the target, as well as data on the location of any landmark at which the gun is aimed, and the corresponding indicators of the azimuth indicator in the tank. After which the result is immediately given about how many “thousandths” you need to turn and raise/lower the gun to accurately hit the selected object. And then - an adjustment for the explosions of projectiles from a drone, the numerical expressions of which are also obtained in the application by entering the numbers of the explosion footage in the appropriate fields.

As a result: with the right approach, tank crews are able to destroy any dugout at a distance of more than 8 kilometers with two or three shots, taking into account corrections, and sometimes even on the first try. Therefore, the “tank-UAV” combination, with the presence of software, has become an effective combat weapon in the northwestern military zone. Although it is worth paying tribute to the masters of their craft, who accurately hit targets even without newfangled “calculators” - such gentlemen also exist, honor and respect to them.

So, a lot has changed since Prudboy’s executions.

Conclusions


Of course, a tank is not a replacement for self-propelled artillery units at all.

It does not have artillery sights such as the same panorama, as well as all the necessary sensors for firing conditions found in modern self-propelled guns. Just as there are no variable propellant charges and a wide range of pointing angles in the vertical plane to perform a wide fire maneuver, including range. In addition, the service life of smooth-bore guns, and tanks with them make up the absolute majority, is relatively small, the shells for them do not have ideal accuracy, and they are very expensive.

But in conditions where it is simply impossible to concentrate a sufficient amount of artillery on a huge front, a tank is sometimes forced to become the only means of hitting targets at long distances. And the fact that tankers, with the help of technical means, were able to adapt to these tasks cannot but rejoice.

Information sources:
Shooting from tanks from closed positions, pros and cons
Technique for firing a tank with PDO when adjusted by a drone operator
56 comments
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  1. +6
    11 September 2023 06: 18
    Shoot from a tank with a PDO?
    This is not so difficult, especially with the use of modern tools.
    But everywhere you need training...
    In addition, the dispersion of a finned projectile is higher than that of a rifled gun.
    But the experience of the Northern Military District shows what is needed.
    Why do you need to train the crew, one, and probably adapt the tank gun technically, two?
    For example, they can make the elevation angle possible up to 40 degrees, add a compass to the platoon, or GPS can be suppressed, and improve the TVV for shooting at long distances.
  2. +2
    11 September 2023 06: 26
    Of course, they are very far from the performance of self-propelled artillery mounts and towed guns, but the fire efficiency was many times higher than the depressing indicators that were demonstrated at the training grounds.
    That says it all. request And is there a difference between a 120 mm and a 152 mm projectile? request
    1. 0
      7 December 2023 02: 54
      125 mm tank shells.
  3. +4
    11 September 2023 06: 26
    What's wrong with this, it's a transportable protected gun; it's not always possible to get a safe direct shot. Everything that flies at the enemy is good, no matter what or how.
  4. -6
    11 September 2023 06: 46
    But in conditions when it is simply impossible to concentrate a sufficient amount of artillery on a huge front, a tank is sometimes forced to become the only means of hitting targets at long distances.

    It was for this purpose that in the USSR, which Putin and his bourgeois entourage so hate, self-propelled guns were created back during the Second World War...

    Strategists who do not know this, but live by the topic: “Strategic planning for the reproduction of the region’s mineral resource base in the conditions of the formation of market relations: St. Petersburg and Leningrad. region,” forgetting about their allies - the army and navy, and entrusting their leadership to just anyone - are worthy of reproach...
    1. +7
      11 September 2023 11: 26
      Quote: ROSS 42
      It was for this purpose that in the USSR, which Putin and his bourgeois entourage so hate, self-propelled guns were created back during the Second World War...

      Nope. Self-propelled guns in the USSR were created to operate with direct fire from the second line. Therefore, they belonged to the class of assault self-propelled guns (except for the SU-85, SU-100 and partly ISU-122).
      The self-propelled gun units did not have any means of firing from distances exceeding the range of a direct shot - their OShS completely copied the heavy tank regiments. AIR - no. There are no proofreaders. There is no calculation of data for shooting. The supply of ammunition is at the OGVTTP level (everyone remembers the norms for shell consumption for typical targets when firing with PDO). Crew training is tank training. Organizational affiliation - BTV (not GAU).
      In general, the WWII self-propelled guns had one task - to crawl 400-600 m to the target under fire and fire a 76-122-152 mm projectile at it.
    2. +1
      11 September 2023 12: 03
      Those who write off-topic are also worthy of reproach, but we have already gone through political education.
  5. +1
    11 September 2023 07: 21
    What is the service life of a tank gun barrel? God grant 1000 shots with very moderate accuracy, range and effect on the enemy. Such an idea.
    1. +4
      11 September 2023 10: 34
      Quote from Escariot
      What is the service life of a tank gun barrel? God grant 1000 shots with very moderate accuracy, range and effect on the enemy. Such an idea.

      No, you can, of course, save barrel life. Go for direct fire and shoot. On the one hand, the accuracy of fire will be higher. On the other hand, if the tank is on direct fire, then the tank itself will be visible to everyone and everything possible will fly at it.
      In principle, barrel life will be saved, because according to statistics, 90 percent of tanks are damaged/destroyed before they have time to fire 1000 shots in battle. But why such savings if both the barrel and the tank and the crew will be lost.
      Firing from closed positions increases the survivability of a tank on the LBS by tens, maybe hundreds of times. At the same time, the tank continues to effectively fire at the enemy.
      1. 0
        11 September 2023 11: 10
        For shooting from closed positions there are self-propelled guns, they are cheaper. The same 152-mm "Acacia" is 2-3 times cheaper than a tank.
      2. +2
        11 September 2023 12: 01
        Quote: SergeyB
        Shooting from closed positions in tens, and maybe hundreds of times, increases the survivability of the tank

        Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
        For shooting from closed positions there are self-propelled guns, they are cheaper.

        That's right!
        The tank is designed for direct fire, which is why it is protected incomparably with any modern self-propelled gun. But this is a forced measure. In war, not always everything is as in science. And if there is a target that cannot be hit with direct fire, and there is no self-propelled gun, the MBT must be able to hit it.
      3. 0
        12 September 2023 01: 24
        Quote: SergeyB
        Quote from Escariot
        What is the service life of a tank gun barrel? God grant 1000 shots with very moderate accuracy, range and effect on the enemy. Such an idea.

        No, you can, of course, save barrel life. Go for direct fire and shoot. On the one hand, the accuracy of fire will be higher. On the other hand, if the tank is on direct fire, then the tank itself will be visible to everyone and everything possible will fly at it.
        In principle, barrel life will be saved, because according to statistics, 90 percent of tanks are damaged/destroyed before they have time to fire 1000 shots in battle. But why such savings if both the barrel and the tank and the crew will be lost.
        Firing from closed positions increases the survivability of a tank on the LBS by tens, maybe hundreds of times. At the same time, the tank continues to effectively fire at the enemy.

        Do you have endless tank barrels? They have been talking about the problems of barrel wear and the lack of artillery shells since last year, let’s add to this the shortage of barrels and shells for tanks.
        Fire from a tank from a closed position is outright ersatz, and this cannot be explained by anything other than a shortage of artillery.
    2. +2
      11 September 2023 11: 19
      I doubt any tank on the battlefield would have a chance of firing 1000 rounds. Unless it will gain a foothold somewhere in the second line as a support unit.
  6. +3
    11 September 2023 08: 27
    To fire from closed positions, the tank must be upgraded as a whole with maximum accuracy.
    at a minimum, it should have either a quadcopter for adjustments or a telescopic mast with a camera and rangefinder.

    In general, when installing the mast, it is possible to change the launch of the ATGM, since the horizon shifts with the appearance of the 5-8 mast.

    It is advisable to create a projectile for a tank similar to the Geranium guided mine.


    The issue of the vertical angle of the gun would also be resolved. It makes sense to bring the angle to mortar or close to it.
    Well, on old tanks you can use natural tubercles to obtain the desired angle.
    1. +1
      11 September 2023 11: 08
      Using a mast to guide ATGMs is an interesting idea. But guided ammunition for canopy shooting seems superfluous in a tank.
      1. 0
        11 September 2023 19: 51
        Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
        But guided ammunition for canopy shooting seems superfluous in a tank.

        Although the article is ancient, there is something to think about - https://topwar.ru/33754-zarubezhnye-tankovye-upravlyaemye-boepripasy.html

        One way or another, you still have to go this way. Electronics capabilities are evolving every year.
        In addition, adjusted ammunition can carry a larger warhead than a feathered projectile.
        1. 0
          12 September 2023 09: 22
          Still, I suggest not to confuse an ATGM with a projectile.
    2. +4
      11 September 2023 11: 32
      In general, if all these requirements are met, we will get an armored "Carnation" or "Acacia".
      Quote: Old_war
      at a minimum, it should have either a quadcopter for adjustments or a telescopic mast with a camera and rangefinder.

      Plus a set of equipment for generating shooting data. Otherwise, the tank will take aim for a long time and stubbornly.
      Quote: Old_war
      The issue of the vertical angle of the gun would also be resolved. It makes sense to bring the angle to mortar or close to it.

      That is, you will have to abandon the tank. At howitzer firing angles, we will have to raise the trunnions by about a meter - otherwise we will get a rollback straight into the carousel or even the bottom. You'll have to attach a self-propelled gun turret to the tank. smile
      1. +4
        11 September 2023 12: 59
        Quote: Alexey RA
        That is, you will have to abandon the tank. At howitzer firing angles, we will have to raise the trunnions by about a meter - otherwise we will get a rollback straight into the carousel or even the bottom. You'll have to attach a self-propelled gun turret to the tank.

        So that's what we're talking about! A modern tank is, first of all, a tank destroyer, and only then a support for infantry (although it was created for this purpose). The author has determined the operating range of a tank with a reserve of 8-10 km and we look at what type of artillery we have working at such distances and we see NONA! It was she who was capable of using 120mm shells and mines at such a distance as well as much closer (In Grozny they threw mines across the 9th floor), there was also a completely new thing “Vienna”, but they decided to be expensive! This is too fatty for the infantry, but now it turns out that it’s kind of necessary and won’t hurt at all. And the question has not been addressed, why tanks and not self-propelled guns? Low in stock? Doubtful .. The answer is most likely that at such a distance the tank survives the enemy’s response much better (and it clearly exists), which is why it is used in this way. And the conclusion from this is that we need a well-armored self-propelled gun with a firing range of 8-10 km.. The simplest solution is to put a gun from NONA in a tank turret, we easily get what we want, and if such a weapon is capable of working with BMD and armored personnel carriers, then even more so with a tank chassis.. But it gives up The military won’t agree to this because how can they spoil a tank like that! We won't allow it! Reminds me of the story with dynamic protection on tanks, doesn’t it? Therefore, we need an argument in favor of accepting such a machine and it is simple, we need to tritely recalculate the NONA gun to 160mm, and just recalculate the ammunition to this 160mm and we will get a weapon close in power to 203mm ammunition (120mm NONA is close to 152mm in power) with a range of the same 8- 10m covered by tank armor.. It will be possible to use 160mm mines, of which there are plenty of them in warehouses, fine, but if not, that’s okay. Plus, we will be able to use the entire line of Kornet ATGMs, launching them through the barrel, which will completely solve the AT problem. And again, we will get a well-armored assault self-propelled gun, especially for battles in urbanized areas, where the larger the caliber and the thicker the armor, the better.. Here they will say that there is no need to produce a variety of different types and introduce a new caliber (is it new?) But in the light of plans to resume production of T tanks -80 this car will be much more relevant.
        1. +7
          11 September 2023 15: 23
          Isn’t it easier not to produce chimeras, but to provide standard artillery with standard UAVs, communications (the same “Excitement”, fully equipped, with portable and transportable stations), devices for fast data output for firing (at least with the same artillery pads - for the first time) and adjustable projectiles? So that this artillery can, instead of sowing fields with land mines in an ellipse, while risking being hit back due to prolonged shooting, simply go to the op point, shoot at the area of ​​a previously reconnoitered target with 3-4 adjustable shells per barrel, and quickly move away from the op point , hasn't arrived yet?
          The difference in the cost of cast iron and an adjustable power supply is compensated by the lower consumption of shells on the target and the lower “consumption” of self-propelled guns from enemy attacks.
          1. +2
            11 September 2023 15: 58
            With 3-4 shells, even high-precision ones, you won’t be able to suppress even a company stronghold, or even a platoon stronghold. Cluster munitions are another matter; yes, 152-mm self-propelled guns actually have an undeniable advantage over smaller 125-mm tank shells.
            But for area targets, such as strong points, dozens of even cluster munitions will still be needed, and the fire will most likely have to be carried out with a change of position.
            1. +1
              11 September 2023 18: 09
              Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
              With 3-4 shells, even high-precision ones, you won’t be able to suppress even a company stronghold, you won’t even be able to suppress a platoon stronghold.

              Quote: Alexey RA
              shoot at the area of ​​a previously scouted target with 3-4 adjustable projectiles on the trunk

              18-24 adjustable shells. Which will not create a lunar landscape like this:
              1. 0
                11 September 2023 22: 24
                Such a landscape is not achieved in one flash. plaque occurs. Typical barrage fire. And the enemy did not get through, although he did not leave any damaged equipment behind. And the wounded and shell-shocked were picked up. So the artillery fired well, the enemy did not get through, all attacks were thwarted. That more ?
            2. -1
              11 September 2023 22: 18
              The strong point is not hit by cluster shells in any way - the targets are entrenched. We need high explosives. Clusters - against attacking and lying infantry. Also against armored vehicles, even light ones - a mosquito bite. So you're right - high precision is also not allowed. It’s not for the public, not at all.
              1. 0
                12 September 2023 01: 27
                Quote: stankow
                The strong point is not hit by cluster shells in any way - the targets are entrenched. We need high explosives. Clusters - against attacking and lying infantry. Also against armored vehicles, even light ones - a mosquito bite. So you're right - high precision is also not allowed. It’s not for the public, not at all.

                Cluster munitions are very dangerous for armored vehicles, because submunitions may well be cumulative
              2. 0
                12 September 2023 10: 20
                Quote: stankow
                So you're right - high precision is also not allowed. It’s not for the public, not at all.

                Instead of a high-precision weapon, you will have to scatter 150 shells per hectare, and only for suppression. Is it better to use adjustable BP to knock out infantry shelters and prepared OTs?
                1. 0
                  13 September 2023 05: 40
                  Maybe better adjustable

                  How do you determine all the firing points of a strong point?
          2. +1
            11 September 2023 16: 40
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Isn't it easier not to breed chimeras?

            Everything is like in the old Soviet joke:
            Oh, those Russians! Instead of making good roads (to figure out why a special tool in the form of artillery does not cope with its function and what needs to be done to fix it),
            they made all-terrain vehicles (they sent tanks to fire with PDO and began to be surprised at the very ambiguous results, and passed off infrequent examples of successful use as an achievement).
            Well, I’ll add that now many people want a “crossover” that can drive on asphalt and through mud. They just forget that the sneaker is not a sports car on the asphalt or a jeep in the mud request
          3. +1
            11 September 2023 18: 10
            It’s just that the current power of the 12-152mm projectile is not enough, alas... Before the Second World War, they also believed that the 76mm OFS was enough for all occasions! Life has shown that a minimum of 122mm is needed.. And now, due to the massive use of SIBZ and the availability of engineering forces and means, the power of calibers that were previously considered sufficient has now lost this function.. The NONA projectile was the most technologically advanced of the entire line of products produced by the military-industrial complex, and there are no complaints about accuracy It was therefore 160mm that will have these properties to an even greater extent due to its geometric dimensions. In Mariupol, everyone saw how BMP-3 were used as self-propelled guns for artillery support thanks to the 100mm projectile and possible aiming angles because the armor was better than that of any self-propelled gun but worse than that of a tank, but the ability to work along a mounted trajectory did not leave other options. A self-propelled gun with tank armor and 160mm caliber would be much more effective than the BMP-3 and even more so than a tank (hello Budapest 1954 and Prague 1968 and Grozny 93\94).
            1. +1
              12 September 2023 10: 12
              That is, it is proposed, during the SVO, to create some kind of analogue of the CV90 AMOS mortar, albeit a single-barrel one. Its weight already in the 120-mm caliber version is 44 tons. However, the armor compared to the tank still leaves much to be desired.
              Most likely, it will not be possible to create an analogue in a 160-mm caliber in an acceptable mass.
              On the Armata platform, you will get a monster like Msta-B, still with relatively weak turret armor and small ammunition.
            2. 0
              12 September 2023 10: 26
              Quote: max702
              A self-propelled gun with tank armor and 160mm caliber would be much more effective than the BMP-3 and even more so than a tank

              It is called - back to the Future. Here it is - the self-propelled gun of your dreams. smile

              Quote: max702
              (hello Budapest 1954 and Prague 1968 and Grozny 93\94).

              No amount of armor or weapons can compensate for tactical miscalculations. If you drive armored vehicles into a city without infantry cover, and even with empty DZ boxes (as was the case in Grozny), nothing will save you.
        2. +1
          12 September 2023 11: 11
          Quote: max702
          The simplest solution is to put a gun from NONA into a tank turret, we can easily get what we want, and if such a weapon is capable of working with BMD and armored personnel carriers, then even more so from a tank chassis..

          The solution is not entirely simple. How easy it is for you, he took it, stuck it in and that’s it. Your analytical comment suggests that it is necessary to create a specialized BMPP infantry support fighting vehicle similar to the Terminator BMPT for tanks. The only question is whether they will consider it advisable to develop such a machine there (arrow pointing up).
          1. 0
            18 September 2023 08: 54
            Quote: NIKNN
            Our analytical comment suggests that it is necessary to create a specialized BMPP infantry support fighting vehicle similar to the Terminator BMPT for tanks.

            Yes, the train of thought is correct, but the very concept of the BMPT as a tank defense machine is incorrect, because why is such a tank needed? I repeat, the whole point here is that the tank has become a tank destroyer instead of an infantry support tool! All the tank’s weapons are designed primarily to destroy highly protected armored vehicles, a 125 smoothbore gun with a length of 48 calibers (6000mm) with elevation angles of -5..+15, a crowbar with 1800m/s and cumulative ammunition at 5km, and what does the infantry need from this? Yes, and a tank fire control system is designed for work on armored vehicles, but not for artillery missions. And now let’s look at the characteristics of the gun of the same NONA, length 24.2 calibers (2900mm), angles -4..+80 range 0.5-12 km, including guided, cluster and thermobaric ammunition, and what will the infantry choose? And if you look at the cost of these solutions.. BUT I think that this is an outdated solution because the power of the 120mm caliber today is NOT ENOUGH! Therefore, we recalculate everything to 160mm and install it on a tank chassis, make a turret (quadratish practical) with maximum internal volume and armor against cumulative weapons in the first place. (Tank crowbars will fly into it extremely rarely), on a large projection of the turret in the aft niche it is quite possible install a controlled module under the leadership of the commander (let him look at the battlefield through the module’s sight), with any module from 12.7+AGS to “Epoch” with 57LSHO, radar of the “headlight” type to identify infantry, UAVs with or without a wire, a myriad of equipment options . This concept is much closer to the needs of the infantry today, tanks and other armored vehicles have something to knock out, but the infantry lacks artillery support.
  7. +2
    11 September 2023 10: 50
    The T-62M will do well at the Olympics, even if you hit a small hillock, there are 115 shells a dime a dozen and the barrel is smooth, the lifespan, until it wears down to 125 mm, and there you can launch 125 land mines, you don’t even need to redo the breech laughing
  8. +5
    11 September 2023 11: 03
    I would have done exactly the opposite. Namely, he would retrofit the 152-mm Akatsiya self-propelled guns with powerful ATGMs corresponding to the caliber, to compensate for the shorter direct shot range compared to tanks. And the missile does not have to be anti-tank; it can also have a thermobaric warhead.
    1. 0
      11 September 2023 22: 33
      It will be difficult to train gunners. Either as birders, or as a direct fire operator...
      1. 0
        12 September 2023 09: 27
        It is difficult to train gunners on portable installations with handwheels. Modern sights, like those on tanks and infantry fighting vehicles, do not require additional training.
    2. 0
      12 September 2023 01: 33
      Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
      I would have done exactly the opposite. Namely, he would retrofit the 152-mm Akatsiya self-propelled guns with powerful ATGMs corresponding to the caliber, to compensate for the shorter direct shot range compared to tanks. And the missile does not have to be anti-tank; it can also have a thermobaric warhead.

      The tank is covered with anti-ballistic armor, which means in theory it can still afford to stand still for a few seconds, targeting the enemy to launch a TOUR, but Acacia with her 30mm love armor will die from any sneeze in her direction
      1. 0
        12 September 2023 09: 30
        An ATGM is required where there is not enough range for a direct shot, at long range. That is, where the danger to self-propelled guns or other launchers is relatively small.
  9. +3
    11 September 2023 12: 00
    Tanks of the T-72 and T-64 series are not able to fire from closed firing positions - the elevation angle is insufficient due to AZ and MZ .. It's a shame for other generals ... although there is nothing to be surprised .. This is the prerogative of artillery and, as an exception, was allowed on tanks T-55 and T-62, on which the corresponding devices were installed, shown in the photo in the article...
  10. +1
    11 September 2023 15: 03
    Conclusion: to shoot with PDO, you need a drone, a smartphone with calculation programs, and also a secure digital connection. It’s interesting which of these is now included in the tank’s standard armament.
    1. 0
      11 September 2023 22: 37
      It’s possible without a drone, just any optics will do, and an eye. No smartphone needed. You can do the calculations without software. The connection can be open. It is also possible through a wired telephone.
  11. 0
    11 September 2023 15: 04
    Question for the experts. This article states

    In addition, the service life of smooth-bore guns, and tanks with them make up the absolute majority, is relatively small, the shells for them do not have ideal accuracy, and they are very expensive.


    And in an article on the same site
    https://amp.topwar.ru/151390-o-preimuschestvah-gladkostvolnyh-tankovyh-pushek.html
    It was stated that

    Despite the difference in the exact parameters of different products, it is obvious that a smooth-bore gun has certain advantages over a rifled gun in terms of projectile energy. It spends less energy on friction and accelerates ammunition more efficiently. With the same characteristics of the propellant charge, a smooth barrel increases the initial velocity of the projectile, on which the firing range and armor penetration also depend. Finally, the barrel resource consumption is reduced and the service life is not reduced so much.


    So is a smooth barrel better or worse and does it last longer or shorter? I just realized that rifled barrels are more expensive and more difficult to technology, and smooth ones are simpler and cheaper.
    1. +1
      11 September 2023 16: 02
      Depends on the size of the powder charge. When firing from a tank gun, it is always maximum. Doesn't pick up like howitzers.
  12. +1
    11 September 2023 15: 51
    The service life of the tank gun barrel of the T72 tank is about 300 shots (however, values ​​of about 700 shots came across). How much does it cost to replace a gun barrel or is it only possible by replacing the entire gun? And how many days of battle will this gun last when firing from a closed position?
    1. 0
      11 September 2023 16: 06
      You do not take into account that for tank guns, the resource is probably indicated for reinforced charges when firing BOPS. For land mines and cumulatives or guided missiles, such an initial speed does not need a charge much less likely. I think if you accelerate the bops to 1.5+ km / s in a rifled barrel, the resource there will be even less. You can probably look for the resource of the 120mm Challenger gun when firing bops. Well, progress does not stand still - the materials on modern guns that are installed on the t-90m are probably different from those used in the t-72 - the resource should be larger.
      1. 0
        11 September 2023 20: 59
        Quote: swzero
        You don’t take into account that for tank guns the resource is probably indicated for reinforced charges when firing BOPS. For land mines and cumulative or guided missiles, such an initial speed does not require a much smaller charge, most likely. .
        For tank shells there are one "main" combat propellant charge 4Zh40
        There are other propellant charges that have been developed in modern times - 4ZH63, but they more powerful, for a longer firing range.
        hi
  13. +2
    11 September 2023 15: 59
    I wonder, did the author of the article see the dugout, can he imagine the dimensions of the latter on the LBS? Yes, at a distance of 8 km at such a target and artillery intended for such shooting. the gun will not hit, especially with the first shell. The use of tanks for such shooting is only out of poverty. Well, they have other goals and objectives! All we need to do is bring the artillery to a state close to modern and about tanks in the role of artillery. forget the guns.
    1. 0
      12 September 2023 20: 44
      And no one hits with the first shot... If after shooting the carousel at least one is laid out correctly, it’s already a success. If not - as in that joke about pygmies and coconuts - the wind does not blow - the year is bad. Another thing is that at direct fire the same conditional bunker-dugout is choked by 1-3 shots... But that’s another story. A tank is expensive.. And one’s own life is even more expensive, so a tenfold excess of ammunition and a tenfold increase in logistics loads in this case seem completely justified to both generals and crews..
  14. +3
    11 September 2023 16: 25
    But in conditions where it is simply impossible to concentrate a sufficient amount of artillery on a huge front, a tank is sometimes forced to become the only means of hitting targets at long distances.
    Normal people usually solve this issue by increasing the accuracy of self-propelled gun fire. For example, for the beloved counterpart of our artillery - the “three axes” there is an excellent solution. Unscrew the fuse and screw in another one with the possibility of correction according to ZhyPySy. At full range the deviation is one and a half meters. The target is the first shell... Almost Excalibur, only 10 times cheaper......
    And the firing of our tanks from closed positions is largely due to the fear of catching a response.. (The lazy one didn’t say about 200 kilos of gunpowder in a combustible cartridge case under his butt) So the guys don’t take any more risks. They don’t anger God, so to speak. Moreover, an alternative to shooting “from behind a hill” is the so-called “shuttle”: “jumped out, fired, disappeared”... And it, like the BE, does not really contribute to accuracy. So it turns out that the best option for tankers is to work “from behind the hill.” Especially with adjustments... In the current situation, as a temporary solution - it works...
    ..
  15. +1
    11 September 2023 20: 21
    All this crap with the “tank from a closed position” is due to poverty...
    There is not enough art in the right place and with the right bookmaker, that’s all the bullshit...
    What kind of closed shooting is there at an elevation angle of 72 degrees for the T-16, and 90 degrees for the T-20... - to dig a hole so that you can drive backwards at an angle and raise your nose?
    And the barrel resource of the tank is clearly not artillery ...
    1. 0
      11 September 2023 23: 07
      Shooting with a tank from a kind of PDO is the easiest and safest way to show at least something to a correspondent. It is in ordinary parts, on truly equipped art. positions are not allowed. So it seems that such combat work is often used. Not even.
  16. 0
    13 September 2023 22: 27
    160 mm, and what not 180? Moreover, it was such an experience. Let it be on paper, but they shot at 41 km.
    If we take the Grabin cannon as a basis, then by modern standards its mass of 21 tons fully allows for mechanization, i.e. installation on a self-propelled chassis
  17. 0
    2 November 2023 13: 36
    1. Adjusting fire is quite possible without drones.
    2. Calculating shooting data is quite possible without smartphones.
    3. All tanks and self-propelled guns have rifled guns, and there are also PT-76 and 120 mm guns.
    4. A new fire control system and training tank crews to shoot from the PDO was quite an accessible task both in the past and today if you wanted to do it.
    5. The armor of the tank is better than that of modern self-propelled guns.
    Vivod:
    1. Shooting tanks at long range is the main method of using them today.
    2. For this there was no need for drones and smartphones, but an understanding of the nature of combat operations in modern conditions.
    3. Old tanks T-34, T-54/55, IS-2,3 and 4, and SU-76, 85, 100, ISU122 are better for these purposes than new tanks. Of course, they need to be equipped with modern means of observation, calculators, and so on, and the crews must be trained. Then they will be better and more modern than self-propelled guns.
  18. 0
    7 December 2023 02: 58
    It turns out that we need to revive assault self-propelled artillery in a new way. I can imagine the ISU-152 cabin covered with dynamic protection units not in the T-34 body, but in the T-90.
  19. 0
    7 March 2024 04: 48
    A good way to use tanks and artillery of any age. It is worth considering how to make shells with a long shelf life.