Much belatedly: the Russian Army switches to wheels

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Much belatedly: the Russian Army switches to wheels
Now KamAZ is thinking about hood technology. The photo shows KamAZ-4385. Photo – Yuri Pasholok


Wheels of progress


The military-technical forum “Army-2023” became a unique reflection of the events in Ukraine. The exhibits of last year's exhibition, by definition, could not meet the challenges of a special operation - the military-industrial complex had too little time to react. Among the many trends of the event, the serious shift of the defense industry towards wheeled platforms stands out. More precisely, the ideas and concepts existed for a long time, but, it seems, they should have remained in prototypes if not for the special operation. Now the chances of gradually replacing expensive and heavy tracked vehicles with wheeled vehicles have increased more than ever.




A belated but important new product is the 152-mm Malva self-propelled gun. Photo - Vitaly Kuzmin

It is no coincidence that the main novelty of Army 2023 is the 152-mm Malva gun. I must admit, the car was late for the Russian Army for 20-25 years. The Swedish Archer has been in service since 2014, the French Caesar since 2003, not to mention the Czechoslovak Dana, which dates back to the 80s of the last century. In fairness, it is worth recalling the late Soviet 2S21 Msta-K, built on a four-axle chassis of a cabover KrAZ. Both the platform and the artillery installation did not appear in the troops. The collapse of the USSR put an end to the promising machine.

We were one of the first to discover all the delights of wheeled vehicles in South Africa. Three-axle 155-mm self-propelled gun G6 Rhino in the local army since 1988. At the moment, in addition to the main tank Olifant, the ground forces of the Republic of South Africa do not have tracked vehicles at all. It is no coincidence that the desire for wheeled vehicles can also be traced among the French, who traditionally consider Africa their zone of interest. The landscapes and conditions of Russia cannot be compared with the south of Africa, but the massive transition to wheeled travel is clearly visible.

Wheels instead of tracks mean mobility, relatively low cost, ease of maintenance, longer service life, low noise effect in motion and resistance to mine explosions. The last bonus, of course, applies only to four-axle vehicles.

A small asset of tracked vehicles has high maneuverability and load capacity. As the special operation showed, the last two factors are important only for main tanks - for all other equipment, tracks are rather superfluous. There are also layout advantages for tracked vehicles. All other things being equal, a vehicle with wheels turns out to be taller than a tracked one - this is due to the large diameter of the wheels and overall suspension.

A rather conditional advantage can be considered the greater resistance of the tracks to shelling. Centralized wheel inflation systems for multi-axle vehicles have long compensated for this advantage.




The special operation also made us remember the well-deserved “Shishiga.” In the photo - GAZ-66 MB. Photo – Yuri Pasholok.

Now about the tactical disadvantages of tracked vehicles in modern applications.

If you look at the map of the front, it is obvious that the configuration of the line of combat contact is unfavorable for the Russian Army. Transferring reserves to the Russians along the eastern part of the arc will a priori take longer than along its western part, controlled by the Ukrainian Armed Forces. Or it’s quite simple - our military has to look for a tank carrier to transport 152-mm self-propelled guns, while the nationalists have NATO wheeled self-propelled guns. Not all of them, of course, and there are only a few of them, but the very fact of their presence makes you think.

This also adds to the low resource of the tracks. In the same stories and the ability to quickly leave combat positions. It’s much easier to do this with wheels. With developed counter-battery warfare, this is now true for all equipment armed with something more powerful than a 14,5 mm machine gun.

Therefore, wheeled chassis are “our everything” for the army. There is no point in descending to the level of South African ground forces, but a new balance must definitely be found.

Wheels for the front


At Army 2023, probably for the first time in many years, it was understood that a cabover arrangement is contraindicated for a truck at the front. First of all, in terms of maintenance and mine resistance.

The new KAMAZ family under the designations 5385P3/4385 and the AMN-BPN 4X4 armored car look symbolic in this regard. For a long time, the main supplier of so-called tactical trucks for the army was the Miass Ural, but, obviously, the plant’s capacity cannot meet the needs. They didn’t allow it before the special operation, and they still don’t allow it now.






Different version of bonnet KamAZ trucks. Photo - Yuri Pasholok.

Cabover KamAZ trucks, in theory, were supposed to work away from the notorious line of combat contact. It looks like the cars from Naberezhnye Chelny intend to compensate for the shortage of Urals.

The fact that the plant in Miass is now not interested in new products (to fulfill the state order) is evidenced by the lack of premieres at Army 2023 and permanent personnel problems on the assembly line. To solve the latter problem, prisoners from nearby colony settlements have been repeatedly brought in.

KamAZ, on the contrary, was full of new products at the exhibition, including variants of traditional cabover vehicles. Only now it has been decided to completely book the cabins and protect them with a net from drones and cumulative ammunition. The range includes mounted armor kits, as well as all-welded structures.

A year and a half of special operations had to pass before manufacturers and customers decided to book military trucks. In some variants it turns out unsightly and little better than what fighters in the northwestern military zone build with their own hands. Moreover, KamAZ is not the best suited for installing armor protection - the age of the cab speaks volumes.

No less long-awaited than the heavy Malva and armored KamAZ trucks are a couple: the 120-mm Phlox self-propelled gun on the Ural chassis and the 82-mm Gorse mortar, which was fitted on the KamAZ-4386.

The Spartak armored cars also became famous, one of which carries the S-60 automatic cannon. In all cases, industrialists are implementing designs that were invented several decades ago. It’s difficult to even calculate how old the “guntruck” concept with an armored cabin is. Now there is AMN-590911 “Spartak”.


Self-propelled mortar "Drok". Photo – Vitaly Kuzmin.

In the variety of wheeled vehicles, which certainly pleases, there is reason for bewilderment. Where is the unification?

The golden days of the Soviet Army, which had a clear line of vehicles, have apparently been forgotten by army planners. The security forces came to the special operation with a wide range of models on staff. This is especially true for domestic MRAPs.

The number of vehicles similar in purpose, but with an almost complete absence of interchangeable components, dazzles the eye: “Patrol”, “Typhoon-K”, “Spartak”, “Typhoon 4x4”, Z-STS, “Federal”.

A few questions.

Was it so important to create a big brother for the Tiger?

We are talking about the two-axle “Typhoon-VDV” and “Typhoon 4x4”. The last two cars turned out to be so expensive and complex that the forced modernization even forced them to change their name to “Titan”. Domestic engineers found another niche and wedged the nine-ton Athlete between the Tiger and Typhoon 4x4.

Such a dispersion of forces and resources looks especially surprising when KamAZ trucks armored with logs and pieces of armor are used in a special operation.






KamAZ cabs can be booked in different ways. Photo – Yuri Pasholok

Why, with such attention to heavy equipment, have they never found a replacement for obsolete UAZs?

The cars are proven and well-deserved, but are completely unsuitable for normal booking. There were a lot of “kids” at Army-2023 – “Sarmat”, “Strela”, and the Nizhny Novgorod “Shvabe” even brought an armored pickup truck. Everything is fine, but its base is not at all military from the Niva, which means it won’t last long with armor.

And we are not yet talking about the duplication of some vehicles on wheeled and tracked bases. For example, at Army-2023, carriers of Kornet ATGMs on the Typhoon 4x4 and Tiger platforms have been demonstrated for several years. Now the tracked BT-3F and Kornet-D1 have been added to the pair. The first is based on the BMP-3, the second is based on the BMD-4. Machines that are completely similar in the tasks they perform.











Why the army needs such a variety of, in general, identical vehicles remains a mystery. Photo – Yuri Pasholok and Vitaly Kuzmin.

It’s gratifying that at least they forgot for a while about the initially flawed idea of ​​​​combat buggies - carts open to all winds. Losses from artillery fire in a special operation are primary, and “military convertibles” have no place here. However, this was clear even before February last year.

Where to grow next?

First of all, it’s worth taking a look at the airborne equipment. For tracked infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers. In pursuit of the unrealistic goal, as it turned out, of creating an infantry fighting vehicle for the “winged guard,” engineers settled on a tracked vehicle. It turned out to be at least very expensive, troublesome in combat and maintenance.

A wheeled platform for promising BMDs can solve many problems. Unless, of course, the military leadership leaves in force the requirements for parachute landing.
143 comments
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  1. +47
    9 September 2023 04: 54
    A small asset of tracked vehicles has high maneuverability and load capacity. As the special operation showed, the last two factors are important only for main tanks - for all other equipment, tracks are rather unnecessary

    Well, those samples that were in the late USSR and passed on to the Russian Federation by right of succession were designed specifically for war with flanking movements, the need to force impassability, to occupy unprepared positions...
    Well, no one, when designing this equipment, did not imagine that in 40-50 years, a military operation called SVO due to political ... leadership would develop into an analogue of WWI with prepared positions and hammering in the forehead.
    1. +24
      9 September 2023 06: 45
      To the point of comment, there was a “direction” in the rapid offensive strategy of the USSR and it is not a fact that there would be enough roads in this direction.
      1. +71
        9 September 2023 07: 33
        Do not scold the author (pianist), he has not yet passed the summer mood, when the roads are dry and give an advantage to the wheel over the caterpillars. The long autumn-winter-spring is coming, and the author's mood will change to the opposite, and we will again receive a lot of articles ridiculing NATO wheeled tanks, etc. lol
        1. +13
          9 September 2023 08: 23
          There was a publication on VO that described Soviet tests of wheeled and tracked vehicles on a snow-covered cylinder. The conclusion from the article, with a link to Soviet specialists, is that in the snow wheeled vehicles weighing up to 30 tons are no worse, and even better than tracked ones, but heavier than 30 tons there is no alternative to tracks hi
          1. +10
            9 September 2023 08: 39
            Quote: Eroma
            There was a publication on VO that described Soviet tests of wheeled and tracked vehicles on a snow-covered cylinder. The conclusion from the article, with a link to Soviet specialists, is that in the snow wheeled vehicles weighing up to 30 tons are no worse, and even better than tracked ones, but heavier than 30 tons there is no alternative to tracks hi

            There have been many publications on this topic, please, if mentioned, provide a link.
            what Snow cover also varies, depending on its height, density, humidity/dryness, etc.
            There are different types of soil, as well as the specific pressure on the ground of equipment (wheeled or tracked)...
            Heavy equipment can also be wheeled; tracked military equipment has a load resource for armoring. BelAZ or MZKT can have a curb weight with a load of more than 30 tons, with large wheels, but you can’t make an analogue of a tank out of them...
            1. +4
              11 September 2023 09: 43
              Now the chances of gradually replacing expensive and heavy tracked vehicles with wheeled vehicles have increased more than ever.

              I have very big doubts about this. Rather, this is an attempt to get away from towed weapons, such as Msta-B (on Malva), “Sleigh” (on Phlox), and “Tray” (on Gorse).
              1. +1
                12 September 2023 11: 48
                Everything that is happening clearly demonstrates the chaos and chaos in the Defense Ministry and the primacy of the interests of respected people who have latched on to military budgets over the interests of the army and the country.

                The Defense Ministry itself must understand what it wants and formulate the requirements for an army jeep to replace the UAZ, light truck, medium truck and heavy truck, as well as all kinds of new classes of wheeled vehicles, and only after that announce a competition for their creation.
                Wheeled self-propelled guns are a more effective replacement for towed artillery, because a wheeled self-propelled gun can move to a position, quickly fire, and leave much faster than towed artillery. But such self-propelled guns should be of the same type and not produce another zoo of different species.
                At the same time, self-propelled guns should also be tracked; changing them to a wheeled one would be a crime.
          2. +1
            9 September 2023 16: 35
            Quote: Eroma
            there is no alternative to caterpillars heavier than 30t

            Or if we rephrase it, with the usual wheel size for armored personnel carriers (meter), with a load above 8 tons per axle, the cross-country ability drops sharply. Therefore, the maximum weight of a 4-axle vehicle is 32 tons, if it is necessary to maintain at least minimal cross-country ability. Or switch to a construction/quarry equipment base, like the Archer self-propelled guns, for example.
            1. +2
              10 September 2023 15: 25
              Wheel is different from wheel. Including the size. As well as the number of axes.
              There was an interesting TV show in the USSR, I don’t remember the name, but the initiator was a youth technology magazine.
              And it was about a wheel that won’t get stuck in the sand. There is such a thing. Elementarily simple. I won’t post pictures so that my enemies don’t steal my secrets.
              And the wheel can be made of steel, but with a spring. He is not afraid of bullets and penetrations. No need to download. Water and dirt are not scary.
              But this requires creative designers and technologists in the military-industrial complex, and not the dominance of old greedy-ineffective or new efficient-greedy managers. Who dug in at the state trough.
              And different tasks require different techniques. The most suitable one at the right moment. On tracks or on wheels depending on conditions.
              1. 0
                10 September 2023 21: 02
                And the wheel can be made of steel, but with a spring. He is not afraid of bullets and penetrations. No need to download. Water and dirt are not scary.
                Yeah, it costs even more than caterpillars.
        2. 0
          11 September 2023 13: 42
          Now the chances of gradually replacing expensive and heavy tracked vehicles with wheeled vehicles have increased more than ever.

          Why the fright? It’s just that the niche for wheeled vehicles was empty! The harp and wheels develop in parallel and together! in this limited theater of military operations or in Syria, wheeled vehicles are more suitable. in a month the gusli will begin to dominate the clay of Ukraine!
    2. +7
      9 September 2023 08: 45
      Quote: spektr9
      A small asset of tracked vehicles has high maneuverability and load capacity. As the special operation showed, the last two factors are important only for main tanks - for all other equipment, tracks are rather unnecessary

      Well, those samples that were in the late USSR and passed on to the Russian Federation by right of succession were designed specifically for war with flanking movements, the need to force impassability, to occupy unprepared positions...
      Well, no one, when designing this equipment, did not imagine that in 40-50 years, a military operation called SVO due to political ... leadership would develop into an analogue of WWI with prepared positions and hammering in the forehead.

      If you have forgotten, in the first month of the Northern Military District our units used deep enveloping strikes: Zaporozhye, Kherson, Lugansk region, they broke through to Kiev and Kharkov, they laid siege to Chernigov and Sumy. Of course, most of the route was covered by roads, but in some places our units bravely bypassed the centers of resistance. So the political leadership fully sanctioned such deep strikes; another thing is that the army, given the limited strength of its forces, was still unable to defeat the enemy in a maneuverable battle.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. +22
          9 September 2023 15: 18
          To be fair, we don’t know what the army would be like with Serdyukov. For the last 11 years before the SVO, it was led by Shoigu and all the merits should be assigned only to him. If I messed something up before, there was time to fix it. I didn’t correct it, which means I liked it. Based on how happy he was in 2021, he liked the state of the army very much. And the well-known Murz has been writing about complete degradation since the second half of the 2010s.
          1. +1
            11 September 2023 01: 06
            Come on, it’s been said a long time ago: “the communists are to blame for all troubles and problems.”

            And they built an economy based on raw materials, and the equipment they got was crooked and vulnerable, and the Army was massive, unprofessional and ineffective.
            1. 0
              13 October 2023 21: 54
              Don't forget about Lenin's galoshes and mines
        2. -4
          9 September 2023 16: 40
          Quote: bayard
          then this is a merit of the courage of the Russian soldier and a junior/mid-level officer ... and a merit of the resilience of the shelled and battle-hardened corps of the Donbass republics

          The credit there goes mainly to the Ukrainian side, which “for these 8 years” was mainly engaged in theft and chatter. Like all other years. Some Yemeni Houthis would not have let anyone leave Kyiv alive.
          1. +5
            9 September 2023 21: 48
            Quote: Negro
            . Some Yemeni Houthis would not have let anyone leave Kyiv alive.

            It was not the Yemeni “Houthis” who were allowed to reach Kyiv at first, although there were 100 thousand of them near Kiev versus 30 thousand.
            We are talking about the balance of forces for almost the entire last year and the impossibility (there is simply nothing or no one) to control the occupied territories.
            1. 0
              9 September 2023 22: 57
              Quote: bayard
              It was not the Yemeni “Houthis” who were allowed to reach Kyiv at first, although there were 100 thousand of them near Kiev versus 30 thousand.

              That's what I say. The opponents turned out to be worthy of each other.
              1. +5
                10 September 2023 01: 13
                Quote: Negro
                The opponents turned out to be worthy of each other.

                I don't think that US and NATO soldiers could have put up more worthy resistance. I don't think at all.
                Moreover, it was NATO generals and officers who were engaged in combat planning and information / intelligence support.
                Quote: Negro
                worthy of each other.

                What to do request genetically, strong-willed qualities, stamina and endurance, unpretentiousness and ingenuity ... we are practically one people. It has always been this way, and NATO thinks the same. That is why they (in NATO) are especially pleased that Russians are killing Russians.
                And yet, all last year, military operations in the NMD went on with a three-, five-, and even seven-fold superiority of the Armed Forces of Ukraine over the grouping of the NVO of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation.
                1. +2
                  10 September 2023 01: 55
                  Quote: bayard
                  I don't think that US and NATO soldiers could have put up more worthy resistance.

                  Yes? Well, maybe we'll live.
                  Quote: bayard
                  It was NATO generals and officers who dealt with information/intelligence support.

                  It's funny that the Soviets have their own pride. They are not ready to admit the superiority of American soldiers, but the superiority of American generals is always welcome.

                  However, for my taste, NATO generals and officers performed exceptionally poorly. “Kyiv will be taken in 72 hours” - this is General Milli from the KNSH. Much has been said over the past year and a half about the work of Russian intelligence (and even worse than it deserved) - but American intelligence gave exactly the same result.
                  Quote: bayard
                  we are practically one people

                  In detail, still yes, but in essence no longer. Strangely enough, many wanted and were ready to forget the “Russian Spring”. SVO will never be forgotten.
                  Quote: bayard
                  the sevenfold superiority of the Armed Forces of Ukraine over the Northern Defense Forces of the Russian Armed Forces.

                  Write more.
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                  2. 0
                    13 October 2023 21: 56
                    The Japs forgot Hiroshima, we forgot Babi Yar and this will be forgotten, especially since all the ideological ones will be killed on both sides
            2. +2
              11 September 2023 08: 58
              Well, any kid knows a simple truth, do not provoke a fight in which you cannot win. Our valiant chiefs apparently thought that everything would be managed by a police operation. We’ll drive in with flashing lights great and powerful, the adversary will immediately run away from fear. But as usual, something went wrong.
          2. +7
            9 September 2023 21: 55
            Quote: Negro
            The credit goes mainly to the Ukrainian side, which for “these 8 years” was mainly engaged in theft and chatter

            Ay-ay-ay... and I know people here who seriously claim that they (from the Ukrainian side) have been doing nothing but diligently preparing for war for 8 years... I need to introduce you to them, IMHO it will be funny Yes
            1. -2
              9 September 2023 23: 17
              Quote: Repellent
              all 8 years did nothing but diligently prepare for war...

              This is Murzik writing all “these 8 years”. If everything had been as Murzik writes, then he himself would not have been alive a long time ago, and patriots would have said that with the loss of Moscow, Russia was not lost.

              In general, among certain patriotic circles it is generally accepted that Zelensky is the new Hitler, Reznikov is the new Speer, and Zaluzhny, respectively, is the new Manstein and von Seeckt rolled into one. While Zelensky is the Ukrainian Bezrukov, Reznikov is the Ukrainian Shoigu, and Zaluzhny is the Ukrainian Gerasimov. Accordingly, the quality of their work corresponds, plus or minus, to the quality on the Russian side.

              With the caveat that the President of Russia is not Bezrukov. Here, yes, the difference is striking.
              1. 0
                9 September 2023 23: 24
                Quote: Negro
                This is Murzik writing all “these 8 years”

                Actually, I had in mind very specific characters from this site. The idea of ​​introducing you is driven by the anticipation of how you and they will become, um, married. IMHO this should be funny winked
              2. +6
                10 September 2023 02: 11
                Quote: Negro
                patriots would say that with the loss of Moscow, Russia was not lost.

                Russia, unlike a used one, fights with its potential - its Army, its weapons, its reserves, its economy, industry, finances, diplomacy. But for second-hand, all this ended last summer. Therefore, now in the theater of operations it is predominantly Western equipment, weapons, and ammunition, with maximum information, intelligence, management, diplomatic and financial support from fifty states.
                And how do you like the result?
                If the goal was maximum losses on both sides, then you should be happy.
                But there is no victory in sight. Even through a telescope.
                Quote: Negro
                It is generally accepted that Zelensky is the new Hitler

                But you must agree fellow Well, there is so much in common. bully
                Hitler began his political career ... in the Circus - performing during intermissions, when clowns usually occupy this time. He gave uplifting speeches there, but at the same time occupied the PLACE and TIME of a clown. wink And he succeeded.
                And Zelensky began with a career as a clown. And at the same time, the 95th quarter always spoke on political topics. This was their strong point and main specialization.
                Both Hitler and Zelensky were financed and directed by both domestic and Western financial circles. Yes
                Well... MENTALITY... IDEOLOGY... SYMBOLISM. fellow Everything is almost identical. And the bet is on revanchism... war to the last German/Ukrainian.
                And swastikas. Yes
                And crosses on armored vehicles. Yes
                And chevrons, flags, rituals, mysticism of Nazi groups. Yes
                It's hard not to see the parallels here.
                Quote: Negro
                Reznikov Ukrainian Shoigu

                lol
                Quote: Negro
                Zaluzhny - Ukrainian Gerasimov.

                Oh yes - student and teacher. lol
                Quote: Negro
                Accordingly, the quality of their work corresponds, plus or minus, to the quality on the Russian side.

                But we can discuss quality.
                Russia is fighting with its own forces and resources, in addition to dealing with issues of internal development... even economic growth has shown... Industry is growing (if you look at industries, and in general). But in the second-hand ones, all this has given way to a long life, even last year. used entirely on the maintenance and financing of its sponsors. Stop these receipts and that’s it. request Both the Ukrainian army and the very possibility of resistance will end. The Ukrainian Armed Forces fight exclusively with their own cannon fodder, with a loss ratio of one to five to one to ten, depending on the circumstances. On average, the loss ratio is approximately one to seven.
                Peremoga?
                And this is with approximately equal quality of human material. People like us are persistent, stubborn, resourceful and inventive, unpretentious. But at the same time, throughout the conflict, losses were almost an order of magnitude higher than those of the Russian Armed Forces.
                What is this talking about?
                With approximate parity in firepower and superiority in reconnaissance and target designation means, communications and combat control means?
                And this speaks of the overall qualitative superiority of the RF Armed Forces over not only the Armed Forces of Ukraine, but also the entire intellectual potential of NATO.
                And this despite all the shortcomings of the RF Ministry of Defense and the quality of its management.

                After all, Russia is not fighting with all its potential, like the Ukrainian Armed Forces. In fact, the combat potential of the Ukrainian Armed Forces has already been destroyed three times in a year and a half.
                When the Ukrainian Armed Forces alone lost more than 500 thousand people killed and died from wounds + at least 300 thousand cripples and disabled people. And these are the minimum numbers of losses (there were much more wounded). This is data from English, American, Polish, French, German and Ukrainian sources. They all come to approximately the same numbers... as the minimum.
                Tell me, with SUCH losses, can we talk about some kind of parity?
                Despite the fact that to this day the RF Armed Forces are fighting with forces smaller than those of the enemy. winked
                1. -5
                  10 September 2023 08: 32
                  Quote: bayard
                  And how do you like the result?

                  If the goal was to delay the SVO, then the result fully corresponds to it.
                  Quote: bayard
                  If the goal was maximum losses on both sides

                  Russians, like Ukrainians, are of no interest to anyone, neither living nor dead. But the European Union and China got a lot of sand in their gears. It's a small thing, but nice. And it sells well in the domestic market.

                  As for losses, Mr. Shoigu spoke about the mobilization resource of the Russian Federation in the region of 20 million people. Plus, in the 22-30 years, a fairly large generation born in the 00s is growing up, roughly 10 million boys. So if we spend all this wisely, then the task of repeating 27 million dead looks completely solvable. If this can be done, then the history of the Russian people is over.

                  But so far, as is easy to see, no one has set such an ambitious task for themselves. One Strelkov demanded a “real war,” but the Russian leadership does not support him (judging by his current status).
                  Quote: bayard
                  Russia, unlike used ones, fights with its potential

                  Quote: bayard
                  used entirely on the maintenance and financing of its sponsors

                  Quote: bayard
                  in the Circus - performing during intermissions, when clowns usually occupy this time

                  Quote: Negro
                  With the caveat that the President of Russia is not Bezrukov. Here, yes, the difference is striking.

                  Ага.

                  As I have already noted, in contrast to the military and economic leadership, the difference between political leaders cannot but be striking. One is begging all over the world and, for better or worse, he begged for about the same amount of money and weapons as his country’s entire budget was before the Northern Military District. As another Ukrainian politician remarked to his colleague in happier times: “Your face is boring! No one will give you money!” So the job is not easy and Zelensky is doing an excellent job.

                  The second political leader is looking for a country where he will not be arrested.
                  And he doesn’t find it.
                  Quote: bayard
                  chevrons, flags, rituals, mysticism of Nazi groups

                  I don't really care. Fascism is not flags, but a unique relationship between a citizen and the state, plus a unique, easily recognizable state rhetoric. National Socialism is even more specific. In some places it was possible to build something like this (fascism, but not National Socialism), but in Ukraine it is unlikely to succeed. The people are not the same.
                  Quote: bayard
                  Reznikov Ukrainian Shoigu

                  Well, so provincial. Shoigu has a beautiful house in the Japanese style, but Ukrainian thieves still accept gold loaves and other African tackiness.
                  Quote: bayard
                  Oh yeah - student and teacher

                  Yes. The Ukrainian army is better than the Russian one, but not in terms of top leadership. Everything is the same there, perhaps even worse (although it’s almost impossible to imagine).
                  Quote: bayard
                  When the Armed Forces of Ukraine alone lost more than 500 thousand people killed and died from wounds + at least 300 thousand cripples and disabled people

                  Oh yeah. The unbridled lies of political instructors show that the Russian army is still the same: it learns almost nothing. This gives Ukraine supporters cautious optimism.
                  1. +3
                    10 September 2023 17: 20
                    Quote: Negro
                    Everything is the same there, perhaps even worse (although it’s almost impossible to imagine).

                    What is impossible? This is now a strong world level. Milly talked about the fall of Kyiv in three days, and Petraeus, on the contrary, drew long blue arrows to the 1991 border before the counterattack. The smartest ones, like Saint-Quentin, simply do not make predictions, only explaining what has already happened.
                    1. 0
                      10 September 2023 17: 42
                      Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
                      This is now a strong world level

                      Yes, there is such a point of view.
                  2. +1
                    10 September 2023 23: 23
                    Quote: Negro
                    Unbridled lies of political officers

                    The funny thing is that these are your political instructors. But since they deeply do not care about the feelings and reactions of Ukrainian society, their assessments of losses are quite correlated with mine.
                    Russia has about 7 times less.
                    Quote: Negro
                    This gives Ukraine supporters cautious optimism.

                    Of course, after all, the goal is to clear the territory of the aborigines, and not “victory second-hand.”
        3. The comment was deleted.
          1. +7
            9 September 2023 17: 14
            Quote: your1970
            if they announced it, it would become clear to even the lowest village idiot that there would be a war...

            The CIA published all the brilliant plans of the North Military District in American newspapers three months before the start.
            1. -1
              9 September 2023 20: 22
              Quote: Negro
              Quote: your1970
              if they announced it, it would become clear to even the lowest village idiot that there would be a war...

              The CIA published all the brilliant plans of the North Military District in American newspapers three months before the start.
              - that is, you understand - what if the CIA printed our real plans 3 months earlier - did it wholesale its agents in our General Staff? Directly with lists of spies?
              1. +1
                9 September 2023 21: 49
                Quote: your1970
                did it hand over its agents wholesale to our General Staff? directly with lists of spies?

                Rented to whom?
                1. -1
                  10 September 2023 11: 19
                  Quote: Negro
                  Quote: your1970
                  did it hand over its agents wholesale to our General Staff? directly with lists of spies?

                  Rented to whom?

                  Naturally to my own family
                  Quote: bayard
                  No . This means that it was there that these plans were drawn up.
                  - to remove unnecessary agents from their pay and deprive them of their pensions. Too many of them have been divorced, yeah..
              2. +1
                9 September 2023 22: 16
                Quote: your1970
                if the CIA printed our real plans 3 months earlier, then it wholesale handed over its agents to our General Staff? directly with lists of spies?

                No . This means that it was there that these plans were drawn up.
            2. -3
              9 September 2023 20: 39
              Quote: Negro
              The CIA published all the brilliant plans of the Northern Military District in American newspapers three months before the start

              An Italian Moldovan tried to distribute this same mayya here six months ago. Haven't heard from him for a long time what crying
          2. 0
            9 September 2023 21: 26
            I think that they meant the number of medical personnel involved directly in their (beginning). He wrote everything correctly. All these mediocre planners and analysts should be put up against the wall for the death of our soldiers!
          3. +1
            9 September 2023 22: 14
            Quote: your1970
            If there are 300 in the Russian Guard then

            350 тыс.
            Quote: your1970
            judging by your squeal

            From the bushes he called the Wolf a bastard??
            Quote: your1970
            in our army

            I have no idea what army you represent.
            Quote: your1970
            Was it 225?

            280 thousand - with rear officers, headquarters, clerks and huntsmen. This cannot cover the borders even in peacetime.
            Quote: your1970
            Didn't you fall head first out of your bed?

            Not myself. But I had to drop it.
            Quote: your1970
            yeah, yeah...NATO has only idiots sitting there.

            You know better.
            Quote: your1970
            .they already guessed

            Well, how can you not guess when 150 thousand selected troops of the Ukrainian Armed Forces were driven to Donbass and began regular shelling of all cities and towns of Donbass. It was an invitation.
            Quote: your1970
            what if we announced mobilization

            Well, you announced that a year before the Northern Military District, 100 thousand ATO veterans were mobilized into battalions and brigades of territorial self-defense.
            And it was enough for our general to announce the mobilization of volunteers immediately with the beginning of the Northern Military District. And that would be enough.
            By the way, mobilization in Donbass began a couple of weeks before the start of the Northern Military District. And the number of corps was increased from 30 - 35 thousand to 60 thousand.
            Quote: your1970
            it would become clear that there will be war...

            In January 2022, it was clear that the war would not just happen - it was already underway. When shells and MLRS fly through the cities, women, old people and children are hastily evacuated, and all retirees are urgently called up for service and simply carried out rapid mobilization.
            Just one cunning man whispered to the main European boss in a whisper (but under cameras) “we won’t let you down.”
            And he didn’t disappoint.
      2. +8
        9 September 2023 15: 22
        We remember these operations. There, Lapin Sr. awarded Lapin Jr. an order for victory in the Chernigov region. And where is this Chernigov region?
    3. +8
      9 September 2023 10: 12
      The Amerzas, who are fighting all over the world, are not very eager to use heavy wheeled vehicles. Even the notorious Hymars has a tracked version. M109 is the same on tracks. But the Europeans didn’t plan to go anywhere further than their garden, where they built roads, and this is where wheeled chassis are optimal. With South Africa it’s already clear: no snow, no rain, no swamps.
      1. 0
        9 September 2023 16: 42
        Quote: Xenofont
        The Amerzas, who are fighting all over the world, are not very eager to use heavy wheeled vehicles. Even the notorious Hymars has a tracked version. M109 the same on tracks

        The Americans have three types of brigades: tank, striker (they are now being abandoned) and light. Tank brigades have only tracked vehicles (this is logical), the rest have only wheeled vehicles.
        1. +5
          9 September 2023 19: 37
          What kind of wheeled artillery systems do they have? I haven't heard of these. They had a Stryker with a 105mm cannon, but they removed it from service. Maybe I didn't notice something?
          1. 0
            9 September 2023 21: 50
            Quote: Xenofont
            What kind of wheeled artillery systems do they have? I've never heard of these

            There is none of them. They roll the M777 like Grandfathers. The M109 is only available in tank brigades; the rest of the infantry does not have self-propelled guns at all.
    4. +1
      9 September 2023 15: 40
      It’s just that our generals have been suffering for a hundred years now from a severe form of “acute pathological love for cavalry attacks” In its contagious form and with severe complications in the form of “I want a ton of money”, “I want to look beautiful at the parade”, “I want a lot of tanks” and other “we can” force speech anywhere")))
      1. +4
        9 September 2023 22: 26
        Quote: tchoni
        "I want a shitload of money"

        This principle has been used to select government officials for the last 35 years.
        Quote: tchoni
        "I want to look beautiful at the parade"

        This is what any general wants.
        The same Rokosovsky and Zhukov looked VERY good at the Parade. Much better than cast iron cardboard. And they had real orders.
        Quote: tchoni
        "I want a lot of tanks"

        Shoiga definitely didn’t want this. I wanted money, I wanted to show off, I didn’t want real new and high-quality equipment, weapons and support. It just gets in the way of satisfying Passion #1.
        Quote: tchoni
        "we can force the river anywhere")))

        Funny - "I can take Kyiv with a swoop of thirty thousand by storm. Without providing rears and normal supplies.
        1. 0
          12 September 2023 08: 11
          Quote: tchoni
          "I want a lot of tanks"

          Shoiga definitely didn’t want this.
          How could he not want to? I really wanted it... That’s why I gave birth to the T-72 B3... Quality - I didn’t want it... That’s why all these “black eagles”, “Kurgans”, “Armatians” And other T-95s... How are they? ... 2500 pieces by the 15th (and then by the 20th) year .. But as for the warhead, there is no... And 70% of modern weapons - he reported ...
  2. +8
    9 September 2023 05: 10
    Caterpillars are not always handy for the time being, only for the 1st and 2nd years of the Northeast Military District, and precisely in this theater of operations.
    It’s too early to write them off for our army. And roads are “done” especially quickly during periods of war. And ahead is the Odessa region, where it is not so dry and not so smooth.

    And wait...a drone will appear,
    which, conditionally, will fly in front of the tank, detect mines and “slam” them with lemons (again, conditionally, 100 rubles each), and then a micro-laser will be “attached” to it - for this purpose.
  3. +20
    9 September 2023 05: 22
    Now there are chances of gradual displacement of expensive and heavy tracked vehicles by wheeled vehicles

    In my opinion, the entire course of the SVO speaks of exactly the opposite. Bourgeois vehicles, both wheeled and tracked, simply get stuck in Ukrainian black soils. And the widely advertised “Malva” is a clear victory of “design thought” over common sense and “admiration for the West.” Example - BTR80/90, BMP-2/3 are criticized for weak armor. And she doesn’t have any on her at all.
    Hit off-road rally!
    1. +6
      9 September 2023 05: 53
      So the author talks about the search for the wheel-caterpillar ratio.
      1. +5
        9 September 2023 07: 03
        No, the author is talking about the complete displacement of tracked vehicles. The entire article is an ode to the wheel! Which is in no way suitable for SVO.
        1. +4
          9 September 2023 07: 16
          Quote from Kwasar9000
          The entire article is an ode to the wheel!

          Right ! And Western doesn’t mean better! The goose has not yet outlived its usefulness; it was created as an off-road project.
        2. +3
          9 September 2023 07: 22
          It is not worth sliding down to the level of the ground forces of South Africa, but a new balance must definitely be found.

          Where do you see talk about the complete displacement of tracked vehicles?
          1. +7
            9 September 2023 11: 03
            Quote: Amateur
            And the widely advertised “Malva” is a clear victory of “design thought” over common sense and “admiration for the West.”

            "Malva" is a natural development of towed artillery. In modern conditions, prompt deployment to battle and leaving a position after work is extremely important. And the cross-country ability of the complex cannot be compared, where the weapon is located directly on the all-terrain chassis and where such a weapon is pulled by a tractor.
        3. +14
          9 September 2023 11: 42
          Quote from Kwasar9000
          , the author is talking about the complete displacement of tracked vehicles. The entire article is an ode to the wheel!

          Do not smack Nonsense, it hurts and hurts.
          The article is about the demand for wheeled vehicles, about its advantages in a number of positions. First of all, this is PRICE, ease of maintenance and the ability to quickly move along public roads under your own power.
          But in Rasputitsa, and on our Donetsk/South Russian black soils, there are only goose birds.
          Every good business needs balance - a reasonable ratio of wheeled and tracked self-propelled guns. Moreover, wheeled self-propelled guns are used not INSTEAD of tracked ones, but instead of TOWED guns.
          And now there will be a LOT of these (both tracked and wheeled self-propelled guns).
          And they come with NEW shells, with an increased range even for old guns - Msta and Geotsint will now be able to fire at 40 and 40+ km. active-reactive guided projectile.
          Quote from Kwasar9000
          is in no way suitable for SVO.

          Anything that shoots and causes damage to the enemy is suitable for SVO.
    2. -2
      9 September 2023 07: 34
      Quote: Amateur
      Now there are chances of gradual displacement of expensive and heavy tracked vehicles by wheeled vehicles

      In my opinion, the entire course of the SVO speaks of exactly the opposite. Bourgeois vehicles, both wheeled and tracked, simply get stuck in Ukrainian black soils. And the widely advertised “Malva” is a clear victory of “design thought” over common sense and “admiration for the West.” Example - BTR80/90, BMP-2/3 are criticized for weak armor. And she doesn’t have any on her at all.
      Hit off-road rally!

      Malva is not a worship of Western design thought, it is rather an attempt to recapture the loot on a new topic with an old unsuitable base.
      As for armor, self-propelled guns are still not infantry fighting vehicles and should not fall under direct fire, so they should have anti-fragmentation armor. Of course, this has not yet been delivered to Malva, but this can be fixed if the self-propelled guns go into series
      1. +9
        9 September 2023 11: 51
        Quote from Escariot
        Malva is not a worship of Western design thought, it is rather an attempt to recapture the loot on a new topic with an old unsuitable base.

        It was prepared exclusively as an export product. lost the tender and abandoned it. The war/NWO came and they remembered it. And this is much better than just a towed Msta-B.
        Quote from Escariot
        As for armor, self-propelled guns are still not infantry fighting vehicles and should not fall under direct fire, so they should have anti-fragmentation armor. Of course, this has not yet been delivered to Malva, but this can be fixed if the self-propelled guns go into series

        Mallow has already gone into production and will soon come to the troops. And if not right away, then soon she will have an armored cabin.
        And over time, it will be possible to install a more powerful weapon on the same base... say, the same “Coalition”. A multiple cheaper version of the self-propelled gun with record-breaking range characteristics. The base is already there and almost nothing will have to be redone there. And they definitely made a towed version of the Coalition.
        By the way, the wheeled self-propelled gun is also being tested with the Coalition turret. It was prepared for coastal defense. And this will also be a much cheaper and easier to transport along highways, a wheeled version of this wonderful gun.
        1. +5
          9 September 2023 12: 13
          Quote from Escariot
          As for armor, self-propelled guns are still not infantry fighting vehicles and should not fall under direct fire, so they should have anti-fragmentation armor. Of course, this has not yet been delivered to Malva, but this can be fixed if the self-propelled guns go into series
          At "Malva" - the armored cabin was originally
          1. +3
            9 September 2023 13: 44
            Quote: Bad_gr
            At "Malva" - the armored cabin was originally

            And that is great .
    3. 0
      9 September 2023 12: 10
      Somehow it turned out that the Oshkoshes that Hymars drives do not get stuck in the asphalt, and, in fact, they must realize their advantage in mobility, first of all, through the use of roads
      1. +2
        9 September 2023 14: 46
        The Oshkosh armored vehicle is two-axle, and the Hymers is based on a 3-axle FMTV chassis
    4. 0
      11 September 2023 13: 00
      Quote: Amateur
      Now there are chances of gradual displacement of expensive and heavy tracked vehicles by wheeled vehicles

      In my opinion, the entire course of the SVO speaks of exactly the opposite. Bourgeois vehicles, both wheeled and tracked, simply get stuck in Ukrainian black soils. And the widely advertised “Malva” is a clear victory of “design thought” over common sense and “admiration for the West.” Example - BTR80/90, BMP-2/3 are criticized for weak armor. And she doesn’t have any on her at all.

      Where have you seen the BTR-90 among the troops? Unfortunately, it is not there because... it will be more protected than 80.
  4. +3
    9 September 2023 06: 23
    Better late than never. And the variety of exhibits is also good, the technical thought works and the army has plenty to choose from. All that remains is to make a decision and finance it. Moreover, our military budget has already been increased three times. If you have to tighten your belts, then you have to. And so the war has been going on for 3 years. During the Great Patriotic War, the people in the rear were not glamorous compared to us. Everything was for the front - everything was for Victory.
    1. +3
      9 September 2023 17: 45
      Quote from buv59
      The war has been going on for 1.5 years. During the Great Patriotic War, people did not show off in the rear

      I am forced to note that Comrade Stalin did not delay his SVO for a year and a half. I understood that small victorious wars cannot last long. We fight for several months and wind down, regardless of the result.
  5. -5
    9 September 2023 06: 42
    Much belatedly: the Russian Army switches to wheels

    Maybe a public organization will ask the Prosecutor General's Office to delve into the reasons for the large delay?
    Instead of checking films you don't like.
  6. Eug
    0
    9 September 2023 06: 43
    ".... which means he won't live long with armor..."
    And without armor - will he live? In wartime, the characteristics of the product were always prioritized over the service life, the example of the Aerokoba is very indicative - ours operated it at increased engine speeds, reducing its service life to 50 hours, but achieving much better flight characteristics,
    especially in terms of throttle response than in the West, where it “didn’t look good”...
    1. +2
      9 September 2023 17: 39
      Quote: Eug
      reducing its resource to 50 hours, but achieving much better flight characteristics,
      especially in terms of pickup than in the West

      Tales of grandfather Shchukar.

      In cars supplied to the USSR, engine characteristics (mainly boost pressure) were lowered, taking into account the quality of Soviet gasoline. Mechanics achieved a full-fledged "combat mode" at the cost of a sharp decrease in reliability.
  7. Eug
    +1
    9 September 2023 06: 54
    As for the diversity of equipment, the factories are very different technologically, each strives first of all to realize its own capabilities, after all, even during the Great Patriotic War both the Yak and La were produced, and this diversity should not lead to price chaos. IN
    a period of urgent (and in war there is simply no non-urgent) “filling of niches” is not bad - so that the customer has plenty to choose from...
  8. +2
    9 September 2023 07: 14
    Quote: Eug
    ".... which means he won't live long with armor..."
    And without armor - will he live? In wartime, the characteristics of the product were always prioritized over the service life, the example of the Aerokoba is very indicative - ours operated it at increased engine speeds, reducing its service life to 50 hours, but achieving much better flight characteristics,
    especially in terms of throttle response than in the West, where it “didn’t look good”...

    The Airacobra was a medium-altitude fighter aircraft that was prone to stalling into a flat tailspin. And that’s why it “didn’t work” on the Western Front.
    1. -4
      9 September 2023 17: 34
      Quote: Zufei
      therefore "did not enter" on the Western Front.

      On the western front, better machines appeared rather quickly. The Cobra was a mediocre aircraft (like the P-40), but not compared to the background of Soviet squalor.
      1. +2
        9 September 2023 22: 04
        Well, why so categorical!? Cobra had enormous potential, which our craftsmen were able to realize through not so complicated alterations. Comfortable cabin, excellent engine, powerful weapons and very good flight characteristics after modifications..
        1. +1
          9 September 2023 22: 41
          Quote: Xenofont
          Comfortable cabin, excellent engine, powerful weapons and very good flight characteristics after modifications..

          The idea of ​​the Army Air Corps ordering a fighter from the JO without having a modern JO was not a good one from the very beginning. Cobra received the worst American engine and a mediocre airframe, and therefore its characteristics also turned out to be mediocre. In the Pacific Ocean it was supplanted by the Corsair, in Europe it worked in auxiliary roles mainly as information security (the Spit was a pure fighter), and after the transfer of the Thunderbolts to tactical aviation it completely lost its relevance.

          But all this does not apply to the Eastern Front. The Cobra is the only Soviet fighter with a metal glider and, as a result, a dive speed worthy by WWII standards; its engine, compared to the Soviet Spanish-Suise and military-issue Wrights, was not so backward; its weapons were beyond praise (and suited Soviet tactics better than American) (it was even excessively strong, the wing was often removed), excellent survivability, a very long range for a Soviet fighter (and very short for the Americans), ideal communications by Soviet standards, ergo-what’s-its-name-nomics and overall build quality was much better above Soviet wartime standards. In general, the best Soviet fighter until the advent of the P-63 and La-11.
  9. +6
    9 September 2023 07: 25
    The tracks are not superfluous, yes they are more expensive, but there is more versatility. On the ETVD for at least 6 months a year, you can’t get off the road.
    Yes, wheels are cheaper, but that doesn’t mean the goose needs to resign.
  10. -8
    9 September 2023 07: 25
    There's a lot of bullshit in the photo, but there's no point. We were preparing for the SVO...
  11. -2
    9 September 2023 07: 26
    Yes, of course we're late. Well done, the French are so far ahead of us. What kind of wheeled tank was created? Song. It’s true that they’re sitting crap now.. We urgently need to catch up with them.
    1. +9
      9 September 2023 08: 32
      Are you talking about AMX10? This is not a tank, but a reconnaissance vehicle with heavy weapons from the 70s of the last century! It is not intended for the front line at all, their element is flanks and mobile warfare, when he is in the vanguard conducting reconnaissance, and the weapons allow him not to be afraid of a suddenly encountered enemy tank. Although already at that time this was a rather controversial topic, a small-calibre gun and ATGM, in my opinion, were already preferable
  12. +1
    9 September 2023 07: 31
    The number of machines similar in purpose, but with an almost complete absence of interchangeable components, dazzles the eye:

    There was such confusion for two reasons.
    There are many customers: the Ministry of Defense, the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the Russian National Guard, the Ministry of Emergency Situations, and all with their own requests and their own vision of application. Previously, they had little overlap, but now they began to work in the same field.
    Secondly, there is no single manufacturer capable of producing one or two models in large quantities.
  13. +1
    9 September 2023 07: 44
    I must admit, the car was late for the Russian Army for 20-25 years.
    Not really. "Wheels" need roads, and "heavy wheels" need good roads, which we did not have at that time ... Now they have appeared and the need for "heavy wheels" has appeared.
    1. +9
      9 September 2023 08: 03
      Quote: svp67
      I must admit, the car was late for the Russian Army for 20-25 years.
      Not really. "Wheels" need roads, and "heavy wheels" need good roads, which we did not have at that time ... Now they have appeared and the need for "heavy wheels" has appeared.

      All oilfield equipment is wheeled and heavy.
      Goose there once or twice and miscalculated.
      But 99,99% of all work, all deliveries are done on wheels.
      And in Yamal.
      And on Yarakta, Kovykta, etc.
      And there the road conditions are much worse than Ukrainian ones.
      1. +2
        9 September 2023 15: 00
        Quote: SovAr238A
        And there the road conditions are much worse than Ukrainian ones.

        Yes, but at what speed? And how often do they come under attack from aviation, artillery and DRGs there?
        A couple of column routes can be done even in the North, even in Ukraine, on the Moon or Mars. But to have hundreds or thousands of them, and also a bunch of branches where you can maneuver at good speeds... such road networks have been created for decades
      2. +1
        9 September 2023 19: 19
        Quote: SovAr238A
        All oilfield equipment is wheeled and heavy.

        ??????? Are you sure?

        Oilfield equipment is a set of equipment that is used in the oil and gas industry. This includes equipment for well repair, equipment for drilling, geological work, and transportation of raw materials. Oil and gas equipment also includes pipes, road construction equipment, electrical products, and auxiliary materials.

  14. +12
    9 September 2023 07: 45
    Why, with such attention to heavy equipment, have they never found a replacement for obsolete UAZs?
    Because there is no suitable ICE .. YaMZ-534 is too heavy, the remaining ones are low-powered for equipment of this class even without armor ..
    About the problems of URAL production, people need to pay! And you need to invest money in production, and that’s the solution to problems, they didn’t want to massively buy Tornado-U after 2015, it’s expensive for the infantry! Here are the logs on Kamaz trucks...
    1. 0
      9 September 2023 08: 05
      Quote: max702
      Why, with such attention to heavy equipment, have they never found a replacement for obsolete UAZs?
      Because there is no suitable ICE .. YaMZ-534 is too heavy, the remaining ones are low-powered for equipment of this class even without armor ..
      About the problems of URAL production, people need to pay! And you need to invest money in production, and that’s the solution to problems, they didn’t want to massively buy Tornado-U after 2015, it’s expensive for the infantry! Here are the logs on Kamaz trucks...

      Oh, come on.
      ZMZ-51432, when finalized, will perfectly take out UAZ and others like them ...
      And a reliable engine.
      1. 0
        9 September 2023 15: 13
        Looking at how different tuning studios install turbo engines at ZMZ, I don’t understand the problems with low power at all.
      2. 0
        11 September 2023 10: 11
        The problem with UAZ is not only and not so much in the engine. The plant is not involved in improving the car. They could at least remove the “goat” or reduce it by installing additional shock absorbers, but they don’t do that.
      3. -1
        11 September 2023 17: 49
        What kind of ZMZ and engine are nonsense .. Are you serious about this? A meager resource, no reliability, disgusting efficiency, zero dynamic capabilities, did I miss anything?
  15. +4
    9 September 2023 08: 01
    I came up with a saying, looking at the cars that we have been buying for the last year and a half: "The fleet is turning into a zoo."
  16. +6
    9 September 2023 08: 48
    Where the harp passes, a wheeled self-propelled gun will not pass. All wheeled vehicles must be unified in terms of units. The same goes for tracked vehicles. And focusing on one topic has never led to any good. There are different techniques for different tasks.
  17. +5
    9 September 2023 09: 17
    The trouble is that after developing a sample, usually instead of launching it into production with simultaneous finishing, the next development is launched. Not together, but instead.
    As in the famous fairy tale, where a furrier, instead of one ordinary hat, made seven excellent hats from a sheep. True, they didn’t fit on my head.
  18. +1
    9 September 2023 10: 16
    Until 2014, the war in the European theater was perceived as a nightmare from the past .. So they did not produce artillery for “asphalt” .. So it’s not a “belated reaction” but a quick response to the changed conditions of military operations
  19. 52
    +7
    9 September 2023 10: 20
    The most important call in the article is the lack of unification. Indeed, this headache came from the USSR, both in tanks and in other vehicles. Apparently, the problems of deputies and logistics are the last thing our Ministry of Defense cares about. And yes, the Author is right - what will be the replacement for the crazy UAZ, is there at least some progress in the field of a light armored logistics vehicle?
    1. +4
      9 September 2023 11: 11
      Quote: 52gim
      The most important call in the article is the lack of unification.
      Why unification at the exhibition? Factories offer various options for their products, and what will be purchased is chosen by the consumer.
  20. +2
    9 September 2023 10: 58
    The author first needs to divide the equipment into at least two directions. The first is artillery and the second is support and rear equipment. This is important, this is where the conversation begins. In the first direction, wheeled artillery should not be a replacement, but an addition to the tracked base ( with mortars, there may not be a large superiority of wheeled chassis) All other “theories” are unfounded and even dangerous. About the second direction, I think everything has long been clear, the more unified, protected transport (and even better for the rear, also armed) the better.
  21. +4
    9 September 2023 10: 59
    Why the army needs such a variety of, in general, identical vehicles remains a mystery.
    Of course, every manufacturer talks about the unique capabilities of their vehicle, and how it is superior to other models... As a result, the “single tank” in the USSR was produced at different factories and it was called T-64, as well as T-72, and of course T-80. And you ask why there is such diversity...
  22. +3
    9 September 2023 11: 01
    So the same Malva - it is not instead of Msta-S and Hyacinth, it should go instead of D-20/30. Nobody refuses caterpillars.
    1. +2
      9 September 2023 15: 09
      Quote: Sancho_SP
      So the same Malva - it’s not instead of Msta-S and Hyacinth,

      So, instead of Msta-B
      Quote: Sancho_SP
      it should go instead of D-20/30.

      Well, I still agree with the D-20, but instead of the D-30 and its self-propelled version 2S1 "Gvozdika", "PAT" are promoting

  23. +3
    9 September 2023 11: 19
    Quote: SovAr238A
    Quote: svp67
    I must admit, the car was late for the Russian Army for 20-25 years.
    Not really. "Wheels" need roads, and "heavy wheels" need good roads, which we did not have at that time ... Now they have appeared and the need for "heavy wheels" has appeared.

    All oilfield equipment is wheeled and heavy.
    Goose there once or twice and miscalculated.
    But 99,99% of all work, all deliveries are done on wheels.
    And in Yamal.
    And on Yarakta, Kovykta, etc.
    And there the road conditions are much worse than Ukrainian ones.


    90% of tractors are also wheeled. Tracked vehicles are needed where the conditions are very, very difficult, you need to drive a little and only off-road - the tracks break the asphalt and the asphalt spoils the tracks.
    The resource differs by an order of magnitude. As far as I remember, according to Ministry of Defense regulations, 60% of tracked vehicles in a unit should have a service life of one thousand kilometers, and wheeled vehicles - 10 thousand kilometers before major repairs.
  24. +6
    9 September 2023 11: 24
    I don’t think there should be a roll in any direction (there is also a third side - half-track vehicles, or even with driving skis).
    The same 70-year-old tracked type ATS-59, GTT, GTSM with an engine from the 66th were quite exploited in the north already in the late Soviet and post-Soviet times.
    MT-LB - as a platform continues to amaze with its variety of functions, including homemade products. This was not included in it, but universalism was included, cost and some efficiency compared to its peers. As a result, in the battles of the 21st century (who would have thought?) it is one of the favorite platforms for homemade ones: ZU-23, 120 mortar, all sorts of air defense pipes or ATGMs, small MLRS or a carrier of helicopter cassettes for NURS, small drones, ambulance evacuation, LNG-9 - an incomplete list of what was attached to it.
    This is who needs to be modernized, and not for fantastic money.
  25. +2
    9 September 2023 12: 24
    How dumb is the current generation? Instead of developing and accumulating the experience of previous generations, they break everything and go their own way. The path of idiots
  26. +10
    9 September 2023 13: 01
    I don’t really understand how “the special operation showed that cross-country ability is important only for MBTs,” when it showed precisely that “bushes get in the way” of wheeled vehicles! It just showed the inapplicability of wheeled vehicles - completely! - half a meter from the asphalt, if your surroundings are not desert.
    Again, South Africa has not fallen into our hands at all, and with Europe, which is completely buried in roads, we also don’t have to race, there’s simply no need.
    Thus, you can remember that all over Europe people ride bicycles in cities - and in winter in Norilsk, distribute bicycles to everyone
  27. +4
    9 September 2023 13: 35
    Nonsense, nonsense and more nonsense. Wheeled vehicles are good on dry, rolled roads and on hard surfaces. Try driving on wheels in mud, sand, snow. Centralized pumping is good when you have 3-5-10 bullet holes, and when you don’t piece of wheel, what kind of pumping can we talk about? Load capacity, maneuverability, resistance to small arms and small artillery - the gusla rules. And forced marches of 1000 km should not be part of daily tasks. Wheeled vehicles for fighting partisans - no armor, no maintainability, if they knocked out, then they abandoned the equipment and dumped it on foot, the same Humvee for the Americans is a consumable. Artillery on wheels is good, but in our realities it’s stupid, especially about mobility and maintainability, in which trailer will you carry spare 8 wheels? And a spare suspension? Or Is it going to ride on your rock roads and shoot from the asphalt?
    1. +4
      9 September 2023 15: 15
      Quote: kot-begemot
      or it will ride on your roller coasters

      That's exactly what they will do. Since it is the rockades that are created for this purpose, to facilitate maneuvering in the rear, between the flanks.
      Do not confuse those road roads that must be CREATED by engineering units in the rear of defense and those that are now available in the civilian road network

      To ensure troop maneuver, transportation and evacuation, the following are prepared and maintained:

      - 1-2 frontal regimental tracks from divisional rockads to regimental rockade
      - along 1 frontal path to the first echelon battalion from regimental rockade to WMO locations;
      - regimental rockade on the line of the main artillery positions and the second echelon;
      - routes of maneuver during the battle by the second echelon and reserve at the rate of 1-2 routes per battalion using frontal routes and regimental rockade;
      - access roads to areas of launcher deployment and logistics support.


      Along all these paths + more, what they can create or use from civilian heritage and wheeled self-propelled guns will maneuver
    2. +3
      9 September 2023 19: 37
      Cross-country ability is important, but is now fading into the background; now the mobility and life of the chassis are of greater importance. What's the point of driving into a shithole and shooting at the enemy from there if it comes back from the enemy after the third salvo? Therefore, yes, they fired a salvo, moved along the road for a kilometer, fired another salvo, moved again, and so on.
  28. +4
    9 September 2023 15: 10
    What's the problem with obsolete UAZ cars? Only that there are catastrophically few of them? I don't understand why there isn't an order for thousands of Patriots a year. The military equipment of the Patriot with a winch, a turbocharged engine and minimal lining and tinting around from fragments will be a huge help.
    1. +3
      9 September 2023 19: 24
      This is basically NOT possible to do. Because all that was left of the patriot was tin for the body. Everything else for the car to drive and fight is imported. Theirs was destroyed a long time ago.
      1. +2
        9 September 2023 23: 32
        They rolled back to domestic components. The engine is the same ZMZ-409, the MT gearbox is yes, Chinese, the transfer case is UAZ. It is necessary to localize the production of gearboxes. Well, learn how to install a turbine.
  29. +3
    9 September 2023 17: 33
    Every time after another war (or during) the topic of the need to reserve at least the cabins of army trucks arises. In 2006, I witnessed a speech by guys from the Ryazan Military Automotive Institute with numbers in their hands, proving this necessity. I don’t remember the specific numbers, but it was promised to reduce personnel losses significantly. As well as all other indicators too.
  30. 0
    9 September 2023 19: 21
    The article is an outright opportunistic order and an outright LIE. Purely an armchair expert. Wheels are needed, no doubt, but they are in support of the main goosenecks and not in such quantity as to put an end to the goosenecks.
  31. +1
    9 September 2023 19: 29
    Diversity at the moment is good. We need to give this zoo to the army and let it test it and choose what suits it best, and when this happens, put the best sample into a large series.
  32. 0
    9 September 2023 19: 53
    The main thing is not to get too carried away by this very wheel theme. For us, given our geography, terrain and “developed” highways, tracked chassis are more important. Wheeled ones are just a help! As for the USSR, even then there were motorized rifle units, i.e. "wheeled divisions" ...
    1. +1
      11 September 2023 08: 36
      So the BMP and MT-LB were also in service with motorized rifle units. There were, for example, motorized rifle regiments on armored personnel carriers and motorized rifle regiments on infantry fighting vehicles.
  33. -2
    9 September 2023 19: 55
    In an attack, tracked vehicles obviously have an advantage over wheeled vehicles. In defense, cheaper wheeled vehicles successfully compete with tracked vehicles.
  34. 0
    9 September 2023 20: 41
    It’s a pity that all this is not in the troops (((
  35. +2
    9 September 2023 20: 43
    Under no circumstances should you cut anything, it will work. You need both wheels and tracks, but IMHO on the forehead and adjacent areas there are only tracks, and the closer to the forehead, the thicker the tracks. This conflict showed this and that the events preceding it were more studied. As an example, I will cite the battle at Zenit in 2015, when people in three columns drove in the wrong direction in confusion. I came under attack several times, when I had almost broken through to my remaining troops on the move and had to go back through Zenit in a circle. Wheeled vehicles - armored personnel carriers, trucks, artillery pieces - were all lost. All the infantry fighting vehicles were lost, and all the motorcycles were lost except one, which left with the wounded west of Zenit. Only three tanks remained on the move. Moreover, when they bypassed Zenit from the West and returned almost to the quarry, the order came - ... Go back! We loaded the remaining soldiers onto the armor and drove back with Zenit on the right, went out to the roundabout on the right, followed it, then turned right along the bridge, past the freaking Ukrainian tank and again past Zenit on the right, all the way under fire and towards Spartak. The guys who were on the armor were just in ah, how can he not be cursed. Now the situation has become even more complicated by the presence of loitering ammunition and FPV drones. Only tracks, only maximum armor, protection and, of course, grilles and barbecues.
  36. -2
    9 September 2023 22: 00
    Malva is a long-range howitzer. No sudden change in guidance azimuths is expected. Why does she need a rotating carriage? It is quite possible to change azimuths by turning the machine, which will significantly simplify the design. A howitzer gun along the length of the body (TRAILER), oriented rearward and with a charging compartment near the cabin. It is likely that it will be possible to do without additional supports or with supports in the form of all-metal wheels that do not interfere with the start of movement after firing...
    It is even possible to have a truck tractor with a camouflaged gun in a civilian body.
    1. +1
      9 September 2023 22: 08
      Quote: also a doctor
      Malva is a long-range howitzer. No sudden change in guidance azimuths is expected. Why does she need a rotating carriage? It is quite possible to change azimuths by turning the machine, which will significantly simplify the design

      The flag is accurately aimed horizontally in your hands by “turning the car.” Especially in the field, and not on the asphalt Yes
  37. 0
    9 September 2023 22: 02
    One scrap metal and cut. A lot of equipment for the rear and national punitive forces. Where is the main vehicle for motorized infantry? BTR-82 foreign?
  38. +1
    9 September 2023 22: 10
    The artillery is moving increasingly to 152 mm. Maybe it's time to think about the 160mm mortar?
  39. +2
    9 September 2023 23: 40
    And in winter you can only drive through deep snow on tracks. I think there should be an approximately equal ratio of wheeled and tracked platforms
  40. +1
    10 September 2023 11: 27
    I wonder how we are
    with the production of tires that are NORMAL in quality and quantity required?
  41. 0
    10 September 2023 11: 27
    were these wheeled wunderwaffes created for South Africa or Australia?
    I just don’t understand why all this is needed in the Russian army, where the lightest chassis is the two-axle 82mm gorse mortar, which is only a ton lighter than the four-axle BTR-82a...
    no matter how miserable and terrible the BTR-82m/BTR-22 is, there are at least 20 tons for 8 wheels

    you can immediately forget about the cross-country ability of the BTR-82a, the advantages of wheeled vehicles only work with low weight, and when this is not the case, we immediately get increased tire wear, limited driving time at high speeds, the high cost of the tires themselves, and, of course, less reliability of the transmission , will crumble

    putting the airborne forces on wheels so that the paratroopers are left without equipment, which has repeatedly perforated all the rubber, or it is stupidly stuck in the mud, this is an interesting solution
    so to speak, to force the paratroopers not to rely on their own equipment, but to constantly trophy something
  42. +1
    10 September 2023 12: 17
    instead of unifying the chassis, they again produce a “vinaigrette” ... this is some kind of sabotage ... for this you need to be fired and judged ... and as for the wheel drive, the main thing is not to go to extremes ... otherwise the economy will immediately go down the drain in wartime ... any fall mines of even a small caliber can leave wheeled vehicles motionless.. but here we need an analysis of operation based on the results of the SVO..
  43. 0
    10 September 2023 14: 01
    Wheeled vehicles are very useful, especially in modern conditions, but the main thing is that there are no problems with tires and spare parts, now the SVO is simply stellar with this, there is not enough everything, even the most basic spare parts, so it is very important that the equipment has interchangeable elements, so that The industry has the opportunity to mass produce components for this equipment, otherwise it will be as it is now, at best not fully operational, or altered, at worst it will not be operational and not combat-ready. My friends who are now in the Northern Military District are really looking forward to new, and most importantly, at least some kind of armored wheeled vehicles, and of course it is desirable that their service life and maintainability remain at the level of Soviet equipment, and preferably it would be better, as I was told, so that it would be possible to quickly troubleshoot the existing ones itself as a tool, and so that spare parts are distributed, for example, even on other equipment, even at the expense of service life and characteristics, they say it will break anyway and then cannot be repaired in any way, well, so that it is not too complicated, something like that.
  44. +2
    10 September 2023 15: 49
    Well, if Russia decided to take over Africa or all of Europe at once, then yes, wheeled vehicles of our Army are simply necessary. In the meantime, our army needs long-range guns. And it doesn’t matter what kind of equipment it will be based on - wheeled or tracked.
  45. -2
    10 September 2023 20: 58
    Is everything shown at the exhibition already available at the front?
  46. +3
    10 September 2023 22: 17
    Don't create an idol for yourself! From the wheel!
    The wheel is a brilliant invention of mankind, but only those who sat in the mud and snow, dragging a self-pulling log with their own hands, will never give up the tracks.
    Have a wheel. Not bad. But balance is needed everywhere! How will the wheel behave in Karelian (Finland) snow and stones?
    So, then Karelia and Norway “are not the Ukrainian steppe”!
    And there is no need for apologetics.
  47. +1
    11 September 2023 02: 40
    What side of the conflict are the “nationalists”? The term “nationalist” requires at least clarification of the nation (Ukrainian, Russian, Belarusian, Kazakh, French, etc.) And calling the entire army of the Armed Forces of Ukraine nationalists, well, that’s a so-so idea, it’s like calling US Army soldiers democrats, calling Soviet soldiers without exception communists, and Colombian army soldiers are drug traffickers.
  48. 0
    11 September 2023 04: 46
    Initially, the tank was intended to break through long-term defenses.
  49. +1
    11 September 2023 11: 32
    For which we will pay. After all, the time will come soon, and we will have to clash with China. Unless, of course, we change this regime. And then in the theater of operations in Siberia and the Far East, all this will turn into rubbish after the first forced march... I understand that it’s all because of the hopelessness and short-sightedness of the country’s leadership...and the people are afraid to touch the bourgeoisie too...after all, protest sentiments are growing...And why they are removing air defense systems and slowly driving them to the West...that’s right...Why to them this Far East...
  50. 0
    11 September 2023 19: 32
    The saddest thing is that, again, in terms of providing the troops with automotive equipment, some of us go to the forest for firewood, why do the troops have so many models of automobile equipment, the ruin of the state budget, and most importantly in all this fuss, who will service it and with what.. For reference everyone, in Russia all automobile schools have been destroyed, why, you need to ask Serdyukov and Makarov, and there were three of them: Ryazan, Chelyabinsk, Ussuriysk. Our Ministry of Defense has a strange position, as if in our army military personnel ride camels and donkeys, it’s time again open automobile schools, train officers - specialists in the use, maintenance and operation of automotive equipment in combat conditions, which is the most important thing. Otherwise, we have a lot of equipment, but there is no one to maintain and properly use it in combat conditions. It’s a paradox.
  51. 0
    11 September 2023 19: 46
    Thank you for the article and opinion. They wrote very interesting comments. One of the problems in discussing wheeled/tracked self-propelled guns in order to assess their economic benefits and maneuverability on different soils is the lack of simple data:
    1. Cost of design/production/operation of tracked self-propelled guns/wheeled self-propelled guns with the same performance characteristics.
    2. Share in the costs of operating a wheeled or tracked chassis. Guaranteed service life of wheels (and suspension) and tracked vehicles (for tanks, back in the USSR they reached a service life of 10000 km for tracks).
    3. The key thing that is compared behind the scenes is usually comparing incomparable self-propelled guns - conditionally, the Coalition SV (tracked) with full automation and robotization and bolted on something based on the Ural D-30 so that you can throw it on and run away, or they made a 4-axle based on the 2A64M gun from Msta. If from the wheeled version we make not an ersatz, but a full-fledged self-propelled gun, then this is a new complex that, in addition to a vehicle with a gun, includes 7-8 vehicles around it and issues of camouflage and countering UAVs, reconnaissance, target designation and much more.
    4. In terms of cross-country ability, there are 2 main parameters: ground pressure and geometric cross-country ability (on virgin soil, on deep snow, on clay, on sand with vertical and lateral slopes)
  52. 0
    11 September 2023 20: 03
    The lack of unification is possible and not bad at the demo stage. After all, many did R&D for their own money and not even according to the specifications of the Ministry of Defense. In general, the desire for unification is largely due to the fact that the logistics agencies of the Ministry of Defense cope with both the provision of spare parts and the organization of repairs of equipment, including through the training of personnel both in terms of proper operation and in terms of carrying out routine repairs in the field. excellent as desired in parts. Yes, there is a separate issue of mobilization so that it is possible to increase the production of, say, in peacetime, 100 cars per year; in our realities, let’s say 100 times more. To do this, everything in the car, from bolts to electronics, must be such that it can be produced at many enterprises of the Russian Federation or can be produced without radical restructuring. But this is a very small type of such machines, and in the Russian Federation there is a choice between what and what? KAMAZ and URAL, everything else is small and highly specialized.
    In general, military economics is an extremely interesting thing. Just for fun, calculate the cost of purchasing some 10000 regular KAMAZ/URAL type trucks to carry shells... The numbers are terrible - I’m talking about absolute values. And they need to be purchased in such quantities annually. Plus, equipment ages, breaks down, and in a war it will also be actively destroyed...
    War is an expensive thing and feasible for a strong economy.
    We can only get through with competent planning: bring 80% of the vehicles for the deep rear and 15% to the regimental warehouse. 5% are the same MRAPs for police operations and for delivery to the front line of contact with the enemy as a replacement for armored personnel carriers.
  53. 0
    11 September 2023 23: 01
    The lack of a unified line is evident, as I see it, in all areas of technology. And here it’s either bungling or...
  54. 0
    11 September 2023 23: 17
    Quote: Eroma
    Soviet tests of wheeled and tracked vehicles, on a snow-covered cylinder.

    wassat

    Led to the creation of: GAZ-71, GTT, Ural-5920, Tyumen, Yamal, DT-10, DT-30.
    All army vehicles, including tracked ones, have very mediocre maneuverability. With the exception of "Vityaz". More or less passable - a “broom” on wide geese, and even then they only need to be led in pairs.
    Of the wheeled ones - only an ultra-light lightweight one with ultra-low pressure air. Like "karakats" and "Trackols". The heaviest of which are “Trom” and “Rusak” with a carrying capacity of a couple of tons...
  55. 0
    11 September 2023 23: 44
    permanent personnel problems on the assembly line. To solve the latter problem, prisoners from nearby colony settlements have been repeatedly brought in.
    Here is an explanation of the problem with personnel from defective managers. It’s better to be a prisoner who works for a father... It’s a waste of time, but for free. Why pay normal money to a normal worker instead of putting it in your pocket. Your pocket is more important. And the prisoners, well, they’ll do something. And so it is everywhere. First the pocket, and the rest, well, as it turns out.
  56. 0
    11 September 2023 23: 47
    Quote: gromovanton
    4. In terms of cross-country ability, there are 2 main parameters: ground pressure and geometric cross-country ability (on virgin soil, on deep snow, on clay, on sand with vertical and lateral slopes)


    In fact, there is only one “rogue” in uniform - Vityaz.
    MT-LB is very conditional and only on wide geese. And I’ve never seen swampers attacking him with an RMS, and a “mountain” goose is not needed for nothing! Although it cost 300 kilorupiah before the SVO... At the slightest maneuvering error, it cuts the carpet and the broom falls on the left side...
    The lateral stability of the MT-LB on ice, without spurs screwed into the tapes, is mediocre.
    Of the tank chassis, only the T-80 can do at least something, on soils of average bearing capacity... Chassis 64 is better than 72 on rich black soil and clay.
  57. 0
    12 September 2023 00: 37
    permanent personnel problems on the assembly line. To solve the latter problem, prisoners from nearby colony settlements have been repeatedly brought in.
    Here is an explanation of the problem with personnel from defective managers. It’s better to be a prisoner who works for a father... It’s a waste of time, but for free. Why pay normal money to a normal worker instead of putting it in your pocket. Your pocket is more important. And the prisoners, well, they’ll do something.
  58. 0
    14 September 2023 17: 37
    Of course, everything was thrown at the author, and correcting it would only spoil it.
    But wheeled vehicles are still very niche and now there is no point in referring to the research conducted in the USSR in the 60s, a different technological base, different capabilities and requirements. Both areas can and should be improved. Conventional tracks made of the same Kevlar or airless tires and so on, here it is important to choose a direction and conduct new research, and not chase after everyone, there are also plenty of stupid solutions.
  59. 0
    16 September 2023 20: 06
    Of course, it’s high time to give a wide niche to fast and maneuverable 2-axle vehicles, but we shouldn’t forget that in the event of a mine explosion, a 4-axle armored personnel carrier has a better chance of returning under its own power.
  60. 0
    18 September 2023 19: 09
    What's happened? Have all the donkeys been eaten? Then you need to switch to donkeys, or some other game.
  61. 0
    20 September 2023 01: 04
    But you need to think about walking technology. I know, I know, poop is about to fly. Only the same 10-15 years ago they zealously smeared with litter for mentioning UAVs and for the use of civilian equipment like telephones or navigators, they received full workdays.
    All that remains is to stock up on popcorn until the enemy once again throws in a high-tech surprise, which everyone from the general to the orderly has spoiled and how the next urgently swooning modernization program for the next 10-15 years will be adopted.
  62. The comment was deleted.
  63. 0
    13 October 2023 17: 52
    In thirty years, we will read articles about how the BMP 3 is removed from storage and how good it is that the grandfathers riveted enough tracked vehicles. In nuclear wastelands it is more convenient
  64. The comment was deleted.
  65. +1
    5 December 2023 15: 50
    Wheel travel is not an alternative to tracks. It’s just that conflicts have changed since Soviet times. Previously, we didn’t have a MRAP, we didn’t armor our trucks, and neither did our UAZs. There were no analogues to Hammer. This is due to poverty.
  66. 0
    5 December 2023 16: 21
    Quote: Zaurbek
    Wheel travel is not an alternative to tracks. It’s just that conflicts have changed since Soviet times. Previously, we didn’t have a MRAP, we didn’t armor our trucks, and neither did our UAZs. There were no analogues to Hammer. This is due to poverty.


    and they forgot about Afghanistan