Requiem for active tank protection systems

99
Requiem for active tank protection systems
Czech active defense complex PAO - Pokročilá Aktivní Ochrana on an armored personnel carrier Pandur II CZ MLU


Not asymmetrical conflict


Complexes of active protection (KAZ) tanks most often associated with the elimination of cumulative munitions, primarily ATGMs and hand grenade launchers. The systems should show themselves especially well in the so-called asymmetric conflicts, when one of the parties is technically superior to the enemy.



For example, the Arab-Israeli confrontation, in which the opponents of the IDF rarely have something stronger than an anti-tank missile. It is the Israelis who are considered the main users of KAZ in the world - at least this is confirmed by rare videos of the real operation of the system. An amazing situation has developed with all the complexes - KAZ is now put on almost every tank, but you won’t meet such tanks in battle.

Even in North Korea, the newest tank with the code name M-2020 has its own active protection. Koreans, for obvious reasons, demonstrate the operation of the system exclusively in polygon conditions. Two KAZs are being honed in Turkey - the short-range Pulat and the long-range Akkor.

They are trained in the manufacture of an active defense system for the state, actually devoid of the tank building industry. For example, the Czechs are developing KAZ with the complex name PAO - Pokročilá Aktivní Ochrana. The system is designed to protect light armored vehicles, in particular, the Pandur II CZ MLU armored personnel carrier.

In general, it is much easier to name countries where active protection for armored vehicles is not being designed.






KAZ increases the dimensions of the tank and weight. Pictured Leopard 2A8 with Trophy

But in the Russian-Ukrainian theater of operations, KAZ was not heard at all. Unfortunately, there are no products on Russian armored vehicles and, fortunately, on enemy vehicles. At the same time, among the suppliers of tanks, infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers for Ukraine there are countries in which KAZ are regularly equipped with armored vehicles. United States, for example. Or Sweden with the CV90 infantry fighting vehicle.

Abroad, many commentators cynically view Ukraine as a weapons testing ground. With all the shortcomings, Javelin anti-tank systems and HIMARS missile systems in various versions have proven themselves well. But the Trophy, famous in narrow circles, is not on either the Leopard or the Abrams. The latter, by the way, has not yet appeared in Ukraine even in a truncated form without uranium armor.

What is the reason for such stinginess of Western sponsors? Is it really not interesting for the developers of KAZ for the rich NATO countries to test the equipment in battle with the Russian "Competitions", "Whirlwinds" and "Chrysaments"?

The developers of KAZ declare a fourfold increase in the survival rate of armored vehicles with active protection systems. To put it simply, the Armed Forces of Ukraine could get a few fewer tanks, but with KAZ. At the same time, without losing the combat power of the units. Tanks would simply die less.

By the way, the heavy losses of Ukrainian tanks in the first stages of the counteroffensive were associated not only with minefields, but also with long-range anti-tank systems of the army aviation. And here the KAZ systems should have been most welcome. To overcome the active protection of the conditional Leopard 2A6, the crew of the Ka-52 would have to launch two missiles one after the other, which would significantly reduce the survivability of helicopters.

In general, it was the summer offensive campaign of the Armed Forces of Ukraine that could become a real finest hour for the Western KAZ. But she didn’t, and dozens of nationalist tanks died under the blows of anti-tank systems.


More or less KAZ Trophy is integrated into the Abrams tank

Among the most common explanations for the greed of Western sponsors is the unwillingness of developers to reveal all the secrets of KAZ. Say, the equipment will fall into the hands of the Russians, and they will simply copy it. But this does not stand up to criticism in comparison with the Javelin ATGM, which, if inferior in complexity to active defense systems, is quite a bit. Nevertheless, "Drotiki" has long been among the trophies of Russian soldiers, and then under the microscopes of the relevant defense institutions.

On closer examination, it turns out that the West is simply not ready to discredit the multi-billion dollar business on the fronts of the special operation.

If in 2019 the global market for various KAZ was worth $11 billion, then by 2028 it will reach $16 billion. The global arms race provoked by the pumping of Ukraine by Western weapons, is expected to increase the KAZ market by another couple of billion. So to speak, they will buy to the heap. For example, the Poles will acquire K2 tanks not only in stock, but also with the mentioned KAZ Trophy.

The unwillingness to risk the reputation of active protection systems speaks of its complete lack of competitiveness. To put it simply, the technique is cumbersome, complex and very expensive. Obviously, it also requires special maintenance, which is excluded in wartime and in conditions of mobilization of the population.

out of trend


The past Army-2023 forum shows very well the directions for the development of military equipment. There are several trends - strengthening the anti-cumulative protection of tanks from all angles, bulletproof armor of everything and everything, disguise from high-tech reconnaissance equipment, as well as the fight against drones on all fronts. Not a word about the active protection of armored vehicles. And the point is not even that in Russia it is not yet possible to mass-produce KAZ of the Afghanit level, but that it is inexpedient.

The special operation showed the premature burial of tanks, but rediscovered the entire arsenal directed against armored vehicles. If earlier they complained about roof-piercing ammunition, against which most of the KAZ are powerless, now an FPV drone can easily send a tank for remelting for several tens of thousands of rubles. It is possible and even cheaper - cumulative grenades from the Great Patriotic War successfully penetrate the thin armor of the roof, arriving from the next DJI rotorcraft.

In Ukraine, they learned at their own risk to disassemble cluster 155-mm anti-tank shells. The goal is to extract a miniature submunition and drop it from a quadrocopter onto the roof of an armored vehicle. The cost of such a blow is calculated in pennies, and it is almost impossible to defend against it. The roof of the tower can still be covered with a platoon grate, and it is still not clear how to close the MTO cover.

KAZ in such cases is completely useless, as it is useless from the F-1, thrown into the open hatch of the car. Do not forget about the price of training an attack drone operator, which is incomparably lower than training an ATGM crew. Anyone who held a game joystick in their hands, on the second day of training, will be able to destroy the tank. And not risking your life too much. Such a rapid reduction in the cost of training weapons operators, perhaps, has not yet been stories.








Despite the difficulties, they are trying to integrate KAZ into domestic tanks. The pictures show patent images of KAZ "Arena" on the T-90M turret. But the technique is not yet visible in metal

As a result, a situation developed in Ukraine when the cost of the projectile fell so much that it actually depreciated the very idea of ​​​​KAZ - it is much more profitable to resolve the issue using the old methods. That is, to build up armor protection, improve its quality, or build a tank EW system, which has already been demonstrated by the Army-2023 exhibition. The resources that are spent on integrating KAZ into existing vehicles are much more reasonable to spend on strengthening armor protection.

For example, Bredley never received active protection - there was simply not enough onboard electricity. The Abrams turret for the Trophy had to be noticeably redesigned - counterweights appeared on the forehead to balance the energy storage units in the rear of the turret.

At the same time, the KAZ system itself is vulnerable even to heavy fragments, which makes it unsuitable in modern combat. In a special operation, both sides suffer the main losses from artillery, and the density of fragmentation fields is unprecedented since 1945. Vulnerable and multimillion-dollar in price (more than 1,3 million dollars per Trophy), KAZ will fail after the very first artillery attack on a tank unit.

This can still be very conditionally reconciled if active defense turned out to be a panacea in battle. But KAZ only protects against cumulative ammunition that approaches the target at strictly defined angles. There is no protection from sub-caliber projectiles, as well as from a wide range of ammunition attacking from the upper projections. Traditional anti-tank weapons are able to cope with various KAZ.

It turns out a little more expensive, but it's definitely worth it. ATGM "Kornet" is able to work on the target with two missiles in one laser beam, which is guaranteed not to allow the enemy to reload after the lead missile is hit. The RPG-30 "Hook" operates in the close range, the imitating grenade of which activates the KAZ counter-projectile, and the closing grenade pierces armor even with dynamic protection.

In general, the story with possible options for counteracting active protection requires separate consideration and is beyond the scope of the review.

At present, KAZ are toys for rich armies, intended purely for conflicts with uniformed natives, who did not hold anything but RPGs in their hands. However, the know-how born on the fields of the special operation will soon reach such.

And this means that the stillborn concept of active protection of tanks is either waiting for a global transformation with cheaper prices, or final oblivion.
99 comments
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  1. +6
    30 August 2023 05: 02
    Due to the transience of technical progress in the field of arms production, the Russian defense industry has recently demonstrated (most often) either the absence of breakthroughs or stillborn concepts ... And in such a case, one must hurry so as not to be completely ...
    I assume that the struggle of a tank with anti-tank weapons will end in the victory of the latter.
    1. +22
      30 August 2023 06: 57
      In fact, KAZ is the future, it will be integrated into all machines. And such articles, about the fact that promising systems are bullshit, because they are expensive and can be destroyed, just throw our army back into the last century! No.
      Yes, in order to stick KAZ into old cars, there are problems, both with energy, and with weight distribution and the general inadequacy of the tank hull, for example, since no one thought about KAZ during its development.
      But in future machines, this must be taken into account immediately. KAZ is primarily a radar, with all its + good if you make the radar area like a trophy in half a tower, then it will probably be demolished by an artillery attack, but if it is broken into small modules, then it is not a fact that the artillery will demolish all the modules. On the other hand, a tank AFAR can search for ground and air targets, work as an artillery reconnaissance radar, as an air defense of a tank, actually shoot down an anti-aircraft gun, aim an anti-aircraft machine gun in automatic mode on a UAV. And the cover from copters with a grenade is solved by the interaction of 2 cars, where the KAZ of one car covers the roof of a friend! soldier
      Mounted KAZ ammunition can shoot down birds, and can be used as anti-personnel grenades in close combat if their control is integrated with all-round cameras good
      KAZ has just begun its development and this topic needs to be downloaded quickly, and not to abandon innovations! What is the armor growth? How to stop the MTO, but just a basket tower with all sorts of rubbish.
      Any system that significantly increases the chances on the battlefield must be implemented! Fragments of artillery do not destroy KAZ, but only damage the radar, perhaps they can be closed for the duration of the shelling with shields, and then opened, as it is implemented in optics. With regards to 2 missiles, their early detection by the KAZ radar will allow you to put an aerosol curtain in advance and at least 10 missiles can go into milk! laughing
      1. -4
        30 August 2023 14: 40
        Quote: Eroma
        small modules


        Quote: Eroma
        Radar, perhaps they can be closed for the duration of the shelling with shields


        Quote: Eroma
        to stop the MTO, but just a basket tower with all sorts of rubbish.


        Zashibis!
        KAZ already costs a lemon of bucks, and weighs a lot.
        And you propose to make it even more expensive and heavier.
        And throw some trash in the back laughing
        Advanced electronics combined with "bulletproof" junk wink

        Or maybe rivet more tanks, without bells and whistles?
        And the trash from the back can also be thrown on the T-80/90.
        What do you think?
        1. -2
          30 August 2023 15: 58
          Or maybe rivet more tanks, without bells and whistles?


          Why no frills? The future belongs to a tank without a crew, with AI on board.
          1. +6
            30 August 2023 18: 06
            Quote from Emperor_Alive
            The future belongs to a tank without a crew

            This future is very distant and foggy.
            Such machines are still at the prototype stage.
            Their reliability is in question.
            Their cost is skyrocketing.
            Their value on the battlefield is questionable.

            And factories win wars with their mass and inexpensive products.
            T 34, not the royal Tiger.
            Katyusha, not FAU 2.

            Heard the news: unmanned taxi Tesla kalymilo without the knowledge of the owner?
            1. -1
              30 August 2023 19: 03
              I do not argue. Now it is. But this is not the last war.
              The future of the military belongs to AI. The president also spoke about this.
              For an AI tank, this is already a very near future.
              And in fact. it's a lot cheaper
              Just a more powerful on-board computer...
              People are infinitely more expensive than this electronics.
              1. +7
                30 August 2023 21: 48
                Quote from Emperor_Alive
                For an AI tank, this is already a very near future.
                And in fact. it's a lot cheaper
                Just a more powerful on-board computer...

                You are very mistaken.
                We still have a problem with digital secure communications.
                What about AI in tanks - more likely Yellowstone will happen in the States.
        2. +7
          30 August 2023 18: 05
          Quote: Mister X
          maybe rivet more tanks, no bells and whistles?

          In winter, there were many videos and photos of the defeat of our tank battalion. 30 tanks were destroyed by artillery and artillery, which was corrected by UAVs, our tanks inflicted zero damage on the enemy, we are doing the same with the tanks of the APU in Zaporozhye.
          Don't you think that tanks worth a few million dollars each just work as targets on the battlefield? bully

          KAZ allows tanks to return to their former strength on the battlefield. angry KAZ is 2 degrees of protection: 1, this is tracking the trajectory of anti-tank guns and calculating the position of anti-tank systems, with automatic aiming of the gun. While the ATGM is flying, the tank manages to send a landmine to the operator am if the operator does not crash, then it is very likely that the dust and smoke from the landmine will knock down the guidance! A single KAZ missile will most likely be shot down. Under Ugoedar, tanks could detect UAVs all over the place and simply shoot them down with automatic anti-aircraft machine guns, depriving artillery of sight! Yes moreover, by tracking the trajectories of the shells, the tanks could give out zu for counter-battery fire and generally shut up the artillery fellow
          Those. thanks to KAZ, attacking a tank is a dangerous adventure for anyone, and the chances of surviving a tank worth several million are much higher good
          1. +4
            30 August 2023 19: 17
            Quote: Eroma
            30 tanks were destroyed by anti-tank guided missiles and artillery, which were corrected by UAVs

            No AI, right?
            Intelligence, planning, coordination, and interaction.
            Satellite connection.

            We should deal with our intellect.
            And then we won’t reach the store without a navigator
            1. +3
              30 August 2023 21: 55
              Quote: Mister X
              We should deal with our intellect.

              100500%
        3. +6
          30 August 2023 20: 25
          Will you also rivet tankers? As? Will we raise the dead? Which Pturs were killed and FPV armor ???
        4. +6
          31 August 2023 14: 32
          Or maybe rivet more tanks, without bells and whistles?
          Well, yes, and at the same time put you there, so that you also feel the absence of bells and whistles. I understand correctly, the safety and survivability of the crew, is this not the main thing for you? The main thing is to shower the enemy with a large amount of metal?
          Who said that the installation of KAZ on tanks will affect the production of the tanks themselves? You? Again, these KAZs are optionally installed on tanks, installation can be done both in peacetime, and consistently, in wartime, there’s nothing you can do about it, where they could install, installed, where not, then no. So I completely agree with the comrade from above ... everything that increases the chances of the crew and vehicle surviving in battle must be installed without fail.
          And not to engage in, like you, dubious savings. In general, it’s surprising how we like to save on what is really important, but the fact that it didn’t work in hell, so please, money down the drain!
          1. 0
            31 August 2023 16: 41
            Quote: Sanguinius
            and at the same time put you there, so that you also feel the absence of bells and whistles

            No rudeness, please.
            I am a resident of Chisinau, from the Bessarabian province.
            We don’t have a lot of tanks at all, but such trickery happens...
            1. +2
              31 August 2023 20: 56
              Yes, maybe I went too far, I apologize, I said on emotions.
              I know that you are from Moldova. If, God forbid, what happens to you, you will not envy. Let's hope everything works out for you
              1. +3
                31 August 2023 21: 52
                Quote: Sanguinius
                sorry

                Accepted!
                Quote: Sanguinius
                Let's hope

                We will wait for Russian tanks that have been scaring us for many years wink
                1. 0
                  31 August 2023 21: 58
                  We will wait for Russian tanks that have been scaring us for many years

                  Hopefully with flowers wink winked
                  1. +6
                    31 August 2023 22: 32
                    Quote: Sanguinius
                    Hope with flowers

                    With the flag of the Russian Federation and St. George's ribbons for sure
                    I don't vouch for others.
                    Even within the same family, close relatives often have opposing views
                    Like a civilian...
                    1. +1
                      1 September 2023 00: 11
                      With the flag of the Russian Federation and St. George's ribbons for sure

                      It's good, calmed down)
                      But apparently this will not happen soon, if at all, there are certain doubts!
                      Even within the same family, close relatives often have opposing views
                      wow, this is also upsetting...truly, so many people, so many opinions!
                      1. +2
                        1 September 2023 07: 54
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        it won't be soon

                        And we are patient.
                        Many remember that Akkerman and Khotin were part of Bessarabia
                        And how the Romanians committed outrages here, unlike the Germans
        5. +1
          5 September 2023 06: 03
          And where do you rivet crews for tanks?
        6. 0
          6 September 2023 09: 31
          Mister X,

          I will say that at the same time they will put you there, so that they also feel the absence of bells and whistles.

          Normul? How much do you value your life? Less than that million bucks or more?

          Tank riveter, damn it.
      2. 0
        30 August 2023 15: 56
        It is quite possible that not one tank is covering another, but specialized drones that are dropped from the tank in the zone of possible enemy actions and accompany the tank. Like in the AUG - there are a lot of specialized ships around the aircraft carrier. This is significantly cheaper than the second tank and gives both a spatial head start against anti-shells and the separation of the radar part of the complex.
        My opinion is that the number of different drones on the battlefield will only increase.
        1. -2
          1 September 2023 20: 49
          The tank no longer exists as a combat unit. But only a tank with a crew. A tank without a crew is quite combat-ready, but it must be very cheap, like a drone.
      3. +19
        30 August 2023 18: 20
        Quote: Eroma
        And such articles, about the fact that promising systems are bullshit, because they are expensive and can be destroyed, just throw our army back into the last century!

        Exactly the same bravura articles wrote about drones, saying that they are children's toys that have no place in a serious war. laughing
        Today we clearly see where the tongues of opponents of drones are stuck.

        Moreover, the author AGAIN did not bother to check his information, and the article came out as an example of ignorance with aplomb:

        Is it really not interesting for the developers of KAZ for the rich NATO countries to test the equipment in battle with the Russian "Competitions", "Whirlwinds" and "Chrysaments"?

        Developers may be interested, but they simply do not have ready-made systems suitable for use "in the field" - they have nothing to check.
        The only combat KAZ is Israeli, but Israel forbade buyers of its weapons from transferring them to Ukraine.
        This is the real and only reason for the absence of KAZ in the Armed Forces of Ukraine, and not the Hottentot conjectures of the author.

        The unwillingness to risk the reputation of active protection systems speaks of its complete lack of competitiveness. To put it simply, the technique is cumbersome, complex and very expensive. Obviously, it also requires special maintenance, which is excluded in wartime and in conditions of mobilization of the population.

        Uncompetitive with what or with whom? He blurted out a stamp, but forgot to logically attach it to the meaning.
        The equipment is not cumbersome, an amateur on the move will not distinguish a tank with a KAZ. Against the background of the tank, the bird's weight is 900 kg. No "special" maintenance, changed the damaged module as in "Lego" and that's it, no more complicated than a walkie-talkie. The price for any is lower than a tank and 3-4 lives. About the conditions for mobilization is generally nonsense, even if you need to teach tankers from scratch, then they need to know only one thing about KAZ - where is the "on / off" button.

        and drop it from the quadcopter onto the roof of the armored vehicle. KAZ in such cases is completely useless, as it is useless from the F-1, thrown into the open hatch of the car.

        KAZ will not help from a bottle of gasoline, but the quadric, the KAZ Trophy radar sees perfectly and can suppress its communication signal, since its AFAR has the "soft kill" electronic warfare function just FOR SUPPRESSION OF SMALL DRONES.
        And modern tanks do not need to drive with open hatches. And if they let the enemy in at a distance of throwing a grenade into the hatch, then such a crew has a place on a collective farm tractor, and not on a tank.

        the price of training an operator of a strike drone, which is incomparably lower than training an ATGM calculation

        Exactly the opposite. For the sake of an example: The course for the operator of the ATGM "Spike" in the AOI is about 20 hours, the course for the operator of an infantry drone is 70-90 hours.

        At the same time, the KAZ system itself is vulnerable even to heavy fragments, which makes it unsuitable in modern combat.

        The board of lightly armored vehicles, such as BMD-4 or "Tiger" is also vulnerable to heavy fragments, so they are also useless in modern combat? Damaged logic.

        The Abrams turret for the Trophy had to be noticeably redesigned - counterweights appeared on the forehead to balance the energy storage units in the rear of the turret.

        The author only proved his amateurism in the topic under discussion. These are not "counterweights", but an armored box with a front hemisphere radar, which is installed this way, since the towers of these tanks did not imply a place under the KAZ in the era of their design.

        KAZ will fail after the first artillery attack on a tank unit.

        Like 90 percent of any other equipment, such as air defense systems, self-propelled guns, radars, mobile gearboxes, etc. So now we need to abandon the "Shell" or "Krasukh"? And then they will fall under the artillery attack. If reconnaissance and counter-batteries are sleeping, then the concrete bunker will not save, they will open it up.

        Traditional anti-tank weapons are able to cope with various KAZ.

        They do not know how, there is not a single case yet. To get around KAZ, complex "dances with tambourines" are needed, which are practically impossible in combat conditions. Well, except for the option when the crew consists of idiots who did everything possible for this, for example, they drove alone behind enemy lines, drove into an open field and fell asleep, waiting to be surrounded and coordinated by a simultaneous strike from all sides.

        "Kornet" is able to work on the target with two missiles in one laser beam, which is guaranteed not to allow the enemy to reload after the lead missile is hit.

        Only on the basis of "Kornet-D1", which still needs to manage to get close to the tanks at a launch distance before it is covered from the air or by artillery. What is possible in battle except against mediocre armies, such as the Georgian one. But mediocre armies and KAZ cannot afford.
        In addition, this will not help against Iron Fist, there is initially a double-barreled system, just for such cases, so a doublet is not enough.

        RPG-30 "Hook" works in the near radius, the imitator grenade of which activates the KAZ anti-projectile

        It has long been decided by the selection of targets, it will only work against some kind of handicraft from a manufacturer with a backward technological school.

        Currently, KAZ is a toy for rich armies.

        And the subject of abundant salivation in those who do not have it.

        soon the know-how born on the fields of a special operation will reach such

        What know-how "from the fields" on which there is NO KAZ ??? fool
        Journalism on the exam. I have no other explanation. sad
        1. 0
          30 August 2023 20: 29
          Thank you, all well written. In general, the quality of the articles has declined points, strongly on the resource. It is a pity that such a klutz as the author is allowed to publish articles here.
        2. +1
          30 August 2023 21: 18
          On the one hand, yes.
          On the other hand, technology with a radar unmasks itself.
          Radar-guided missiles may appear.
          The drone, theoretically, can highlight the target on a radar signal for Krasnopol.
          And now the expensive prodigy is destroyed with one shot for tens of kilometers.
          1. +5
            30 August 2023 21: 34
            Quote from Emperor_Alive
            On the other hand, technology with a radar unmasks itself.

            There is such a thing, but this is already a matter of a more strategic level and overall dominance on the battlefield. The task of the entire military machine is to ensure maximum freedom of action and maneuver for itself and to limit that of the enemy.

            Quote from Emperor_Alive
            Radar-guided missiles may appear.

            1. They are, only against air defense and electronic warfare, they will not be spent on a tank.
            2. And what is KAZ for? That's right - to intercept incoming missiles. fellow

            Quote from Emperor_Alive
            The drone, theoretically, can highlight the target on a radar signal for Krasnopol.

            Maybe. But the task of the rest of the military branches is not to allow him to do this. The tank does not fight on its own.

            Quote from Emperor_Alive
            And now the expensive prodigy is destroyed with one shot for tens of kilometers.

            Or maybe not destroyed. War is generally a chaos of probabilities, and all a person can do is try to correct them.
            If you start from the logic of "what if they kill you" - then you don’t need to fight at all, but immediately surrender to the mercy of any aggressor. request
        3. +3
          30 August 2023 23: 49
          Quote: And Us Rat
          The only combatant KAZ is Israeli, but Israel forbade buyers of its weapons from transferring them to Ukraine

          In fact, those who handed over tanks to the Armed Forces of Ukraine do not have KAZ available. Abrams have not even been brought yet, everything that is possible is twisted from them. So far, no one in Europe has anything in service, there is nothing to supply.
          Quote: And Us Rat
          They do not know how, there is not a single case yet

          Yes, there are very few cases of active work, for the last 15 years this is when a couple of Israeli battalions catch three daredevils with RPG-7, and the rest are hiding somewhere. The lancet has a remote detonation, the cumulative jet flies far and KAZ can no longer cope with it. No one will say how it is there in a real battle.
          But of course, it is better to have KAZ than not to have it, since the chances of surviving are 4 times greater, which is good. It is better to have boathouses over aircraft than not to have them, although they will not save you from a tomahawk. It is better to have a bulletproof vest than not to have it, although it will not help against a mine
          1. +6
            1 September 2023 18: 26
            Quote from alexoff
            The lancet over there has a remote detonation

            The lancet is controlled via a radio channel, and therefore vulnerable to jamming of the communication channel. After all, KAZ is not only about knocking down iron, it is also electronic warfare, but for some reason no one remembers this in verbal battles.
            And KAZ starts shooting only if non-contact suppression fails.


            In addition, the Lancet is much slower than an ATGM and is vulnerable to automated rocket launchers. Yes, and the effective distance of the cumulative jet is limited to a few meters, this is in the KAZ work area.

            But these are all extreme measures, to prevent the arrival of such drones is the task of military electronic warfare.
            1. 0
              8 September 2023 20: 23
              The Lancet has a pretty good internal computer and, according to the developers, can itself hold a target. New systems that are starting to be tested now supposedly know how to find a target themselves. It will not be easy to shoot it down from a dive from a height of a couple of kilometers; Western tanks are quite vulnerable from above. So I would not be so confident in the victory of KAZ over the lancet of the near future
          2. 0
            17 October 2023 13: 03
            A cumulative jet cannot fly far. The impact core flies far, so its armor penetration is an order of magnitude lower.
        4. +2
          1 September 2023 22: 23
          A few months ago, I wrote about KAZ and tanks, and I myself fought on them and then served them, but here the experts are of a very high level, I am no match for them.
          An excellent answer to the author, who is patriotic in his articles and rosy fantasies, I really liked it, thanks.
          1. 0
            8 September 2023 11: 54
            Where can I read your article? Profile has no articles on this forum
    2. +1
      30 August 2023 10: 10
      An article from the ETERNAL struggle between the shield and the sword.
      1. -1
        30 August 2023 14: 18
        if you put everything together - the Shield generally wins
        built-in remote sensing, on top of it is a hinged remote sensing, on top of it are packages with ceramic filler
        still on top anti-cumulative grilles
        + built-in remote control on the roof of the tower, crew hatches and on the fenders
        KAZ Arena-M with protection against attacks from above,
        protection along the horizon KAZ Afganit,
        protection of weak spots KAZ Cactus
        + camouflage system in various ranges
        + checkers with aerosols against ATGM guidance in various ranges
        + mine protection system with their remote detonation
        + tank trawl
        + for quick digging in the tank blade
        1. +1
          3 September 2023 13: 24
          ))) "Now buckle up, we'll try to lift THIS into the air!" (c)
          It remains in the underground caponier, for reliability. And set up an external power supply ...
      2. +5
        30 August 2023 20: 01
        It’s funny to read about the captured Javelins under a microscope. To copy, you need to have at least the same electronics. Yes, and it will cost accordingly.
        1. +2
          31 August 2023 09: 45
          Electronics of a Javelin from the 80s. And Russia has had such electronics and much more powerful ones for a long time. Its.
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. +4
      30 August 2023 12: 08
      And at what point in history were tanks invulnerable? Before the birds, anti-tank rifles fired at them from the bushes, before the drones they were bombed by pilots. Now there is simply not enough of everything, especially tankers, and high sensitivity to losses. Well, unmanned tanks can also be cheap and numerous.
    5. 0
      30 August 2023 12: 52
      I assume that the struggle of a tank with anti-tank weapons will end in the victory of the latter

      disagree,
      KAZ Arena-M is already testing protective ammunition protecting the upper hemisphere of the tank
      those. with an upward explosion and the fired ammunition is placed at a different large angle
      on the T-72B3M tank with KAZ Arena-M, this can be seen on single charges
  2. +10
    30 August 2023 05: 37
    Well, too lazy to comment on the entire article, but the fact that Trophy costs the customer $ 200 thousand has been known since 2021.
    1. -4
      30 August 2023 12: 09
      Why then is a leopard with a trophy worth 30 million bucks?
      1. +7
        30 August 2023 18: 29
        Quote from alexoff
        Why then is a leopard with a trophy worth 30 million bucks?

        belay
        Are you confused with a fighter? The newest Leo costs 8-9 million.
        1. -2
          30 August 2023 18: 42
          Norway bought 50 trophy leopards for 2 lard bucks in winter, it seems someone somewhere is cheating. I suspect that someone is selling a very cunning trophy for nothing
          1. +10
            30 August 2023 19: 58
            Quote from alexoff
            Norway bought 50 trophy leopards for 2 lard bucks in winter, it seems someone somewhere is cheating. I suspect that someone is selling a very cunning trophy for nothing

            Everything is bought in a package. Training, maintenance, exercise equipment spare parts.
            1. 0
              30 August 2023 23: 36
              And how much then does a leopard cost with a training package? 29 million?
          2. +5
            30 August 2023 21: 45
            Quote from alexoff
            Norway bought 50 trophy leopards for 2 lard bucks

            Have you taken into account what is included in the contract amount in addition to the tanks themselves? Today, systems are sold with a service and support plan for years to come. Training, simulators, ammunition, repairs, spare parts, consumables, etc.
            1. -1
              30 August 2023 23: 37
              So a fighter for 30 million will actually cost a hundred in a package? And the Norwegians probably don’t have ammunition for leopards?
              1. -1
                2 September 2023 13: 43
                Quote from alexoff
                So, in fact, a fighter for 30 million in the package will cost a hundred?

                And so it is - look at the contract amounts.
  3. +12
    30 August 2023 06: 04
    Requiem for active defense complexes

    well, yes, only I would add - a Requiem for active defense complexes in the Papuan wars, and in rich countries where the life of every soldier is valued, "everything is just beginning" ...
  4. +8
    30 August 2023 06: 19
    Requiem for active tank protection systems
    . Today is the morning of "requiems and swan songs" or what?!
    The only thing that this conflict UNCONDITIONALLY SHOWED is that on the battlefield the soldier, as he was, remains the main force !!!
    Additionally ... a soldier must be well trained, equipped, equipped with various combat, protective and other systems to the very top, at the required level !!!
    And the technique ... now is like that, tomorrow it will be different, and the day after tomorrow ... but who knows what will happen the day after tomorrow !!!
    1. +1
      30 August 2023 13: 40
      We are waiting for new equipment with an exoskeleton and protection to the very top

      the exoskeleton itself already protects the legs, arms, but armor panels can also be hung on it and in circular protection against fragments 82 and 120 min
      1. 0
        30 August 2023 14: 51
        Does it protect against petals? If not, then it doesn't count.
    2. +5
      30 August 2023 18: 34
      Quote: rocket757
      Yes, FIG knows what will happen the day after tomorrow!

  5. -3
    30 August 2023 06: 34
    Quote: rocket757
    And the technique ... now is like that, tomorrow it will be different, and the day after tomorrow ... but who knows what will happen the day after tomorrow !!!

    how true! who knows, wait and see!
  6. +3
    30 August 2023 06: 55
    The era of confrontation between shells and armor is ending. The era of confrontation between the drone and electronic warfare has begun.
  7. +8
    30 August 2023 07: 30
    It's only begining. Even if KAZ can protect against RPGs and partially against ATGMs like "Tou", "Kornet" and "Whirlwind", then "the game is worth the candle." Where the lives of soldiers (tankers) are valued, KAZ will be purchased and improved
  8. +2
    30 August 2023 07: 38
    As for FPV drones, not everything is so rosy, normal training takes 2-3 months and several broken devices, the operating range is up to 3 km in the field and up to 2 km in buildings, for a number of reasons the operator works outside a serious shelter and can be detected (drone radiation - remote controller). As a result, there will be an exchange of an infantryman (damage to a piece of equipment) for a trained operator.
    1. +10
      30 August 2023 08: 43
      What prevents you from making a remote antenna on wires and putting an operator 150 meters away in a fortified dugout? And to trace on wires with a weak current is an unrealizable task.
      1. +1
        30 August 2023 13: 14
        What prevents you from hanging a repeater on a larger drone 10 km away, which would send a signal to some concrete bunker? A million options
    2. +3
      30 August 2023 23: 52
      Controlling an FPV drone is no different from controlling an ATGM first generation - Baby. No target coordinator, no automatic beam hold. All by eye and fingers. Training is not easy. Launched and scored? yeah wink Returned 70 years ago.
  9. +1
    30 August 2023 07: 39
    In fact, now there should be a platform that monitors any threats at a short distance from tanks and eliminates them, and if the tank is weighed down by everyone, then everyone will become unrealistically heavy literally and financially
    1. +5
      30 August 2023 09: 46
      Yes, sometimes it’s even strange that no one traces the analogy with the fleet. After all, all this has already happened: tanks - battleships / aircraft carriers, anti-tank systems - anti-ship missiles, kamikaze drones - torpedoes ... They tried to build up armor on ships, and MZA bumped a huge amount, but in the end they came to active opposition through early detection of threats (powerful radar/sonar systems) and destruction by guided weapons (missiles/torpedoes). And it's better with specialized units, rather than trying to establish protection from everything everywhere. Although the more familiar methods have not been completely abandoned either. Something similar awaits tanks. Now they are already so overcomplicated and vulnerable that in their current form they are buried as a class by all and sundry. They've been buried for a long time. There is a conceptual impasse: the most protected unit... does not protect! It is not possible to solve such complex protection problems within a single machine. Ultimately, you will probably have to build some kind of "land warrant" with your own radar / air defense / missile defense / UAVs for various purposes / transport, etc. So. KAZ will not disappear, but will "grow" to a separate "surrounding space control" machine capable of detecting, classifying and responding to any flying objects in accordance with the threat they pose to the covered area (dangerous - shoot down automatically). Well, all this, of course, will not happen soon...
      1. +6
        30 August 2023 18: 40
        Quote: CouchExpert
        KAZ will not disappear, but will "grow" to a separate "surrounding space control" machine capable of detecting, classifying and responding to any flying objects in accordance with the threat they pose to the covered area (dangerous - shoot down automatically). Well, that's all, of course, not soon ...

        Yes, there are still a couple of years left. Yes
        Israeli manufacturers of KAZ are already working hard on a similar solution.
  10. +3
    30 August 2023 08: 47
    Fable about "green grapes".

    For advanced KAZ, an advanced electronic industry is needed. And we have a BIG problem with that.
    1. +5
      30 August 2023 11: 19
      In general, everything is fine with discrete microwave elements and microassemblies, the problem is with medium and high-capacity FPGAs. Purely domestic ones are not enough for 1K LE.
  11. +3
    30 August 2023 10: 17
    I would like to ask the author: are tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers and other armored vehicles needed?
  12. -10
    30 August 2023 12: 03
    An expensive toy that allows you to steal big money from the budget. KAZ will only help in the fight against savages firing single missiles.
    1. +2
      30 August 2023 21: 13
      What is the problem for Kaz to hit more than single missiles? Someone somewhere once shot not single shots??? Examples?
  13. +1
    30 August 2023 13: 05
    Did the Americans not even equip their armored vehicles with enough trophy so that they could still sell to the Ukrainians? The same goes for Germans and Poles. And it protects not only from anti-tank systems, by the way. It has completely proven its worth, otherwise it would not have been purchased
  14. 0
    30 August 2023 13: 50
    Active KAZ glows. RTR is easily detected, and the radiation can also catch an anti-radar missile :(
    1. 0
      14 November 2023 23: 05
      an anti-radar missile can also be shot down by KAZ
  15. -2
    30 August 2023 13: 54
    Quote: Rabioso
    It has completely proven its worth, otherwise it would not have been purchased

    A link would be desirable - to the evidence. If she proved her worth to Islamic terrorists, then they are bought against them. And against an army of a similar level, it DID NOT PROVE ANYTHING TO ANYONE. That’s why we won’t see it, this KAZ, on the outskirts.
    1. +5
      30 August 2023 14: 18
      I wonder what is the fundamental difference between a "cornet" or "mestizo" in the hands of terrorists, from the same "cornet" or "mestizo" in the hands of conscripts or mobilized?
    2. +5
      30 August 2023 14: 32
      I have already posted links more than once. Since the system was installed on Israeli tanks, not a single tank has been hit by gas. And there they also use cornets.
    3. +1
      30 August 2023 19: 12
      And against an army of a similar level, it DID NOT PROVE ANYTHING TO ANYONE.
      So it will still prove it. It’s not for nothing that all developed armies rushed to buy tanks from the Trophy: USA, Germany, Norway, Britain, who did I forget?
  16. +4
    30 August 2023 14: 21
    ... the stillborn concept of active protection .....

    Actually, air defense is also an active defense concept (as opposed to armor, which is passive defense). What, air defense is also in a landfill?
    The author distorts in his assessments, clearly confusing the essence of what is happening.
    KAZ was intended to protect against missiles - that is, easily damaged and relatively slow targets flying from the front hemisphere. Armor protects from the same side, only against fast-moving and hard-to-damage targets. Simply because the enemy is usually on the other side. The use of dynamic protection has shown that it is easily bypassed by some complication of missiles, therefore, it is necessary to make sure that missiles do not reach the armor at all, that is, you definitely cannot do without KAZ.
    Why so much attention to rockets? Yes, because they are in the hands of the infantry, that is, en masse, in the guise of shells, respectively, represent the greatest danger. This is what the SVO showed - tanks cannot approach the line of contact at all, they hit from closed positions, like self-propelled guns.
    As for drones, this is a new type of weapons, for protection against which tanks were not intended before due to the lack of it as such. Therefore, they have yet to develop adequate protection, and, in principle, it is clear that it will also be active. Simply because drones, like missiles, need to be shot down on approach, preventing them from reaching armor.
    There will be KAZ on tanks, as well as protection from drones. Just a matter of time.
    1. -1
      31 August 2023 10: 27
      What is the conclusion? A special operation in Ukraine showed that it is necessary to create impenetrable armor from new materials! Tanks must remain a means of breakthrough on the battlefield!
  17. +5
    30 August 2023 18: 21
    KAZs are being improved in accordance with new threats.
    From a kamikaze drone, for example, Trophy on Merkava-4 will protect in 90% of cases. This is just a software upgrade without changing the hardware. The radar was taught to recognize the drone.
    With a strictly vertical attack on the tower, a dead zone is possible.
    You will probably have to add a 5th radar looking up.
    Protected from cumm. attacks and from kamikadze drones - this is already a lot.
  18. +5
    30 August 2023 18: 56
    Incredible sofa expert nonsense! There is no KAZ on our equipment solely because of the inefficiency and short-sightedness of our leadership, which, reveling in its own prosperity, did not give a damn about the armed forces and turned the army into amusing regiments. As for the real effectiveness of this type of protection, it can and should be tested only by supplying it with several units located on the front line. That's when there will be something to talk about. And you can refine it ad infinitum. Any way to protect the crew of our aircraft must be used 100 percent!
  19. +3
    30 August 2023 20: 39
    The author, of course, is a complete layman and did not even bother to understand the issue.

    1. KAZ is the future. And after its own and the work of fpv drones, it generally became inevitable.

    2. Kaz trophy Israeli. Israel does not supply weapons to Ukraine.

    2. Afghanite knocks down crowbars.

    3. Afghanite puts smoke above the roof against the javelins.

    4. Surely you can make a shotgun mortar to bring down FPV.

    5. The Afghan radar perfectly sees drones, grenades falling from above and everything else.

    6. Afghanite radar is able to select targets.

    7. Afghanite ammunition does not need to be reloaded. They are always charged and will hit two missiles in a row. They will hit the leading decoy and the main grenade.

    There is a lot more that can be written that the author does not understand. But this is enough.
  20. +4
    30 August 2023 22: 27
    There is exactly one serial KAZ in the world now - "Trophy". Everything else is at best prototypes, at worst - "and you tell." Even the Germans and Americans are buying Trophy. But Israel forbade transferring it (and any other weapons) to Ukrainians. However, this has already been said.

    Refusal of any means of protection on the grounds that it does not protect against everything in the world is stupidity or sabotage. So the Soviet infantry loved to run without helmets during the war, because "well, it doesn’t save you from 7,92 in the forehead." It's scary to imagine how many lives have been lost because of this.

    The task of tanks is not to stand like a pillar in an open field, stoically withstanding any number of hits from various weapons, but to fight and win in it. An extra survived shot of the enemy is an extra return shot that the enemy may not survive. Extra (no) chance to win.

    Even now, when the parties have to gnaw through each other's fortified defenses through mines and under artillery fire, with competent successful actions, in the end it still comes to a situation where the infantry is forced to fight back with their anti-tank systems and RPGs. There are many such videos. And here the presence of KAZ is already a matter not just of life and death for tankers, but of victory or defeat.

    At the beginning of the NMD, when a maneuver war was going on, the massive installation of KAZ on Russian armored vehicles could have affected the entire course of this very NMD. Instead, the Armed Forces of Ukraine filmed gigabytes of beautiful videos of the work of Stugn, NLAW and Javelins. And even simple RPGs have reaped their harvest.

    And yes, you need to understand that an FPV drone strike, a grenade from a copter, a close explosion of a six-inch projectile, a Lancet, and even a collision with a mine do not always lead not only to the death of a tank with a crew, but even to a complete loss of combat capability. But ATGMs are on average much more deadly.
    1. +2
      30 August 2023 23: 55
      The Germans don't buy trophies, they offer trophy leopards for export. Why should they fight if their stupid eastern neighbors do it for them?
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. -1
      31 August 2023 10: 27
      What is the conclusion? A special operation in Ukraine showed that it is necessary to create impenetrable armor from new materials! Tanks must remain a means of breakthrough on the battlefield!
    4. +4
      31 August 2023 18: 43
      Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
      At the beginning of the SVO, when a maneuver war was going on, the mass installation of KAZ on Russian armored vehicles could have influenced the entire course of this very SVO.

      I couldn't. There were too many other more significant negatives. From the crappy planning of the operation, to the crappy provision of the army with communications and military equipment. Plus political decisions that nullified the initial successes. Although, yes, it would seriously reduce the loss of armored vehicles.
  21. +1
    30 August 2023 23: 44
    On the one hand, the author's proposal to improve the types of booking is correct. Nevertheless, the observed tanks, in particular Abrams and Leopards, in individual models with a very serious level and quality of armor, which led to excessive weighting. Therefore, the improvement and further development of KAZ is inevitable. Against the backdrop of the rapid development of UAVs, under the requests and needs of the NWO, a conclusion suggests itself. The only solution for the further development of MBT, as strange as it sounds, is a remotely controlled tank. Moreover, the decision must be extremely radical, completely excluding the crew. Only such a solution allows you to find the right ratio of size, weight and armor of the tank. Whoever understands this faster and finds the right solution wins. Perhaps the appearance of pairs in the form of an MBT with a crew and an assault - a kamikaze without a crew, walking in front of the MBT. The same is true for aviation. The line of combat contact suggests a similar development of events.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. -2
      31 August 2023 10: 26
      What is the conclusion? A special operation in Ukraine showed that it is necessary to create impenetrable armor from new materials! Tanks must remain a means of breakthrough on the battlefield!
  22. +1
    31 August 2023 09: 41
    It's high time to install infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers on tanks...
  23. The comment was deleted.
  24. -2
    31 August 2023 10: 26
    What is the conclusion? A special operation in Ukraine showed that it is necessary to create impenetrable armor from new materials! Tanks must remain a means of breakthrough on the battlefield!
    1. 0
      6 September 2023 06: 55
      Quote from: m4rtin.frost
      What is the conclusion? A special operation in Ukraine showed that it is necessary to create impenetrable armor from new materials! Tanks must remain a means of breakthrough on the battlefield!


      And we even know from what materials! There are, there are unrecognized geniuses in the vastness of Russia!

  25. +2
    31 August 2023 23: 06
    we all read similar publications 20-30 years ago about UAVs. Like, all these drones are pranks and toys, and there is no need for them for our legendary and invincible army with nuclear weapons. Now, when we are totally behind the whole world in terms of drones, an epiphany has finally come to the radiant heads of our generals with stripes that it turns out that it is impossible to fight without UAVs. They have been trying the same thing for 20 years about KAZ. What a deja vu. Although, in the course of the SVO, it turned out that a tank without a KAZ was doomed to the front line, since it was saturated with anti-tank weapons, primarily ATGMs, so it was forced to work from closed positions as self-propelled guns. If we had our KAZ tanks, they would continue to be a shock fist and would not have such large losses. Waiting for all the armies of the world to have tanks with KAZ is short-sighted. The story of the UAV may repeat itself and again we will have to "pull up our pants" to catch up with our enemies.
  26. -4
    2 September 2023 03: 50
    The idea of ​​armoring a tank has exhausted itself in about 50 years, if not 70.
    The United States already has prototypes of unmanned tanks.
    But it is not clear why and why a tank should be armored if there is no one in it?
    That is, an unmanned tank does not need to be armored - this is a solution to the problem.
    1. 0
      8 September 2023 12: 17
      But don’t fuel, guns, control systems, ammunition, engine, transmission need to be protected? Well, they farted it into a puddle - loudly and irresponsibly hi
  27. 0
    4 September 2023 09: 59
    Awesome explanation. The active protection complex was not used in the combat zone, but it is already clear to the author that it is not useless.
    In fact, almost a year passed before the mass appearance of all these Drones. When other anti-tank weapons were more dangerous, nevertheless, for some reason, there were no active protection systems on our tanks.
  28. 0
    5 September 2023 17: 51
    Rumors about the death of KAZ are somewhat exaggerated. It must be modernized to expand its capabilities to destroy drones. And not to promise either a bright future or dark oblivion. If the development of KAZ proceeded incrementally and in series, and were not limited to exhibition samples and models, now the problem of drones and other "javelins" would not be so acute.
  29. 0
    5 September 2023 21: 07
    And this means that the stillborn concept of active protection of tanks is either waiting for a global transformation with cheaper prices, or final oblivion.

    And this means that the author fool
    The future is definitely for KAZ!
  30. 0
    6 September 2023 09: 29
    Quote from Mister x


    Or maybe rivet more tanks, without bells and whistles?
    And the trash from the back can also be thrown on the T-80/90.
    What do you think?


    I will say that at the same time they will put you there, so that they also feel the absence of bells and whistles.

    Normul? How much do you value your life? Less than that million bucks or more?
  31. 0
    7 September 2023 21: 02
    Observations show that the “limit parameters technique” is good when it is located in the near rear.
  32. 0
    14 November 2023 22: 46
    Currently, KAZs are toys for rich armies, intended purely for conflicts with the standard natives, who have never held anything but RPGs in their hands.

    At one time, our generals also talked about UAVs and did nothing to develop these weapons. .And now, when the pressure is on, the whole country is going around buying drones from China and Iran in order to somehow level out our shameful lag and their shortage in the army. The same can happen with KAZ if we continue to consider it a toy and pampering. Now we need to put what we have on our tanks, look at it in combat conditions of the SVO, improve it, bring it to mind, but make sure that the tanks become tanks on the battlefield, and not self-propelled guns operating from closed positions. Well, KAZ is not working in the upper sphere yet, but what is preventing it from being done? There are no limits to perfection. The main thing is that the tank crew is reliably protected and confidently performs its tasks. And without KAZ, vision of the battlefield and artillery cover, it is impossible to do this in modern conditions. KAZ has no alternative.