The American cruisers Ticonderoga are being retired. How to build a new Greater Poland with begging

43
The American cruisers Ticonderoga are being retired. How to build a new Greater Poland with begging

For a long time, the Ticonderoga-class missile cruisers, along with aircraft carriers, embodied the power of the US Navy. Created in the early 80s of the 1th century, they included the latest technical solutions, such as the shipborne multifunctional combat information and control system Aegis (Aegis - Aegis), anti-aircraft guided missiles (SAM) SM-2, SM-XNUMX "Standard ", anti-submarine guided missiles (PLUR) "ASROK", cruise missiles "Tomahawk".


Combat Information Center for Ticonderoga-class cruisers

If the first five cruisers of the Ticonderoga class were equipped with two-beam launchers (PU) Mk (Mark) 26, then the subsequent ones introduced vertical launch installations (UVP) Mk 41. active arrays (PFAR) provided the ability to control space, from the depths of the sea to near space.




Two-beam launcher Mk 26 and UVP Mk 41

In total, 27 Ticonderoga-class URO cruisers were built, of which 16 units are in service, 6 more units are in reserve navy, and 5 ships were scrapped or already disposed of. Debates in Congress and the US Navy about when and how many Ticonderoga-class cruisers should be decommissioned have been going on for a long time.

On the one hand, time does not spare them, on the other hand, the Chinese Navy is advancing on the heels of the US Navy - in the foreseeable future, they can surpass the US Navy. It is unlikely that they will be able to overtake the Chinese Navy in terms of the number of ships of the US Navy, in terms of quality - so far, but the gap will narrow, and the Ticonderoga-class cruisers are very effective combat units capable of using the latest missile weapon and hit targets even in low Earth orbit.


Although from a certain point on, an aging ship will require more and more funds to maintain its combat capability and modernization, hindering the qualitative development of the fleet through the implementation of new promising concepts, for example, building a “hybrid” fleet, including a significant number of unmanned ships.

The latest plans released by the US Navy call for the withdrawal of all remaining Ticonderoga-class cruisers from the fleet in the next five years.

And when I heard about it...

Poles desired cruiser


The impending retirement of the Ticonderoga-class cruisers made a lasting impression on loyal American vassals. It could be assumed that Ukraine will be the first among the beggars, but no, the Polish pans are ahead of.

In particular, the former officer of the Polish Navy, Maximilian Dura, on the pages of the Polish edition Defnce24 suggested that writing off such wonderful cruisers is wasteful. It is much better to transfer them for a "symbolic dollar" to Poland. Trying to cover up their own begging, the United States is invited to transfer the Ticonderoga-class cruisers not only to Poland, but also to other NATO countries, such as Finland, Sweden and Romania - they say, we care about others (although the Poles, most likely, do not were interested).


And also our lover of freebies" Maximilian Dura threatened to attack the Russian Baltic Fleet of the Russian Navy

The Ticonderoga-class cruisers transferred to the United States are supposed to be used as stationary air defense facilities and launchers of Tomahawk cruise missiles. Based on the tasks set, the cruiser's crew will be reduced, and the United States, in addition to the "symbolic dollar", will receive orders for the maintenance of its former ships and the supply of weapons for them.

It would seem that everything is logical?

But in reality, everything is not as rosy as on the flags of some movements banned in Russia.

From an economic point of view


First, let's start with the fact that the Americans will not sell them a cruiser for a dollar. To paraphrase a well-known anecdote, for one dollar, Poles can only join European values ​​in the nearest green spaces.

Even if, for some incredible reason, the United States decides to publicly donate cruisers to the Poles for the aforementioned "symbolic dollar", then in parallel, multi-million, or rather, multi-hundred million, contracts for the repair and maintenance of these time-worn floating suitcases will be signed. For example, the aircraft-carrying cruiser Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov, sold for $1 to India, went up by $2,33 billion in the process of being upgraded to the aircraft carrier Vikramaditya.


“Polish beggary” is centuries-old traditions, it is pride, it is principles

The fleet is not for the rogue. Even a cruiser chained to the pier will require significant funds to maintain its combat readiness, and ammunition for it costs a lot of money. Do not forget that the cruisers will need to be adapted for the Poles - some of the blocks will be dismantled, some will be replaced, the same state identification systems, and this will not be fast and very expensive. Yes, and restoring the technical condition to the minimum required level will require significant costs, otherwise the United States themselves would have continued to operate these cruisers.

Although, for sure, the Poles hope to divorce the United States for free aid and supplies, hiding behind an imaginary Russian threat. There is just one caveat here.

The United States must clearly understand that in the near future Russia is not a competitor in the ocean, but China is completely, as already mentioned above. In the event of a serious conflict in the East, cruisers from the reserve can be restored, and what will be the use of them after they are transferred in a “castrated” form to Poland and other European parasites?

In addition, the United States does not need either the victory or the defeat of Poland. They need a cumulative, continuous weakening, both of Russia and the countries of Europe, and the question arises of what role in this case the Ticonderoga-class cruisers conditionally assigned to Poland will play ...

From a military point of view


And from a military point of view, the Ticonderoga-class cruisers will pose an existential threat to Poland - a chance to repeat the experience of Japan at the end of World War II, an experience for which they now sincerely thank the United States. In other words, Poland will have every chance of getting a nuclear strike on its territory. (maybe the Poles will thank us later).

It's all about Tomahawk cruise missiles, which can potentially carry a nuclear warhead. In the event of a sharp aggravation of the international situation, a conflict between Russia and the United States, Poland may become the first target for a Russian retaliation strike. Or even not a retaliation strike, but a preemptive strike, which obviously will not cause a US retaliatory strike, but is quite capable of cooling their “hot heads”.

Well, let's put nuclear weapons out of the picture - the war is going on with the help of conventional weapons (absurd, why on earth should we stand on ceremony with Poland, then they will say thank you).

Despite all the power of its on-board electronic systems and radar stations, the presence of long-range cruise missiles and missiles, a ship chained to the pier is just a target. The maximum that he will be able to do is to fire one volley of Tomahawks, after which he is guaranteed to be destroyed - mobile ground-based air defense systems and launchers of operational-tactical missiles do not just camouflage, hide in green spaces, change their location.

One may doubt the possibility of detecting and destroying moving ships with ballistic and aeroballistic missiles, but it is unlikely that anyone will doubt the ability of the hypersonic missile of the Kinzhal complex to surgically accurately destroy stationary objects.

The effectiveness and expediency of destroying enemy ships stationed in naval bases was previously considered by the author in the article Goals and objectives of the Russian Navy: destroy half of the enemy fleet. On the way new, hitherto not yet tested in world practice ways to destroy stationary enemy targets, which include ships at berths, using hundreds or even thousands of inexpensive unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) - long-range kamikaze.


A warship moored is an excellent target for long-range precision weapons.

It is characteristic that with the help of a long-range kamikaze UAV, you can not even attack enemy ships, it’s enough that these ships will simply shoot UAVs circling in the air worth tens of thousands of dollars with their missiles worth millions of dollars. A peculiar, rather humiliating way to deplete the enemy’s economy, however, the American military-industrial complex (MIC) may even like it, of course, if the Poles regularly pay for the supply of new missiles (which is unlikely).

Do not forget about crewless boats (BEC) - kamikaze, which in Russia also know how to build - only the need to ensure the protection of cruisers chained to the berths from BEC-kamikaze will take a lot of time and resources from Poland.

And finally, there are radical ways to strike at Polish naval bases with conventional weapons comparable in impact to nuclear weapons – living near Polish naval bases is not recommended.

In general, from a military point of view, Poland will be nothing but trouble from American cruisers.

From a political point of view


There is no sadder story in the world than Poland's attempts to become a great power at the expense of others.

There are many factors that prevent Poland from becoming a great power on its own, neither in the past, nor in the present, nor in the future, because of which Polish politicians have developed centuries of experience in a specific, slightly schizophrenic way of thinking.

On the one hand, Poland has long lacked a military-industrial complex and armed forces capable of ensuring victory for its country over any great power such as Germany, Russia or their allies. At the same time, Poland readily becomes a situational ally for the great powers, hoping to snatch a piece of the territory of its neighbors at someone else's expense and play a little empire.


Be strong - abroad will help us

On the other hand, the centuries-old experience of Poland is the experience of its division by various opponents with the connivance or even participation of former allies. At each historical turn, Poland finds an ally-sponsor/roof, climbs into an adventure with him, gets "tinsel", after which he begins to intensively look for a new overlord-sponsor/roof, while simultaneously putting forward claims/grievances against the previous one. However, after several iterations of national humiliation, the claims are usually forgotten and you can try to “be friends” again.
To enter into an alliance with a stronger state is normal. To receive help from him, including weapons, is understandable. However, it is natural when the received weapon is used for self-defense, for the survival of the state.

The problem is that Poland needs American cruisers not for defense, but for attack - at least to exert psychological pressure on Russia - they say, "that's how cool we are", but at the maximum - to create a threat of a strike by Tomahawk cruise missiles, which could potentially carry a nuclear warhead.

And for such a demand will be at the highest level.

Conclusions


What political goals does Poland pursue in the long run - is there a great secret?

No one attacked Poland and was not going to. After the collapse of the USSR, Poland, the Baltic countries, and other countries of Eastern Europe could have had a wonderful, peaceful life (and even under the USSR they lived well) - tourists from Russia and China, cheap energy from Russia, rising real estate prices and much more. All that was required was to remain neutral and behave decently.

But they chose a different path, where only blood and fires await them. Well, some story teaches nothing.
43 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +5
    26 August 2023 04: 51
    Well, some people learn nothing from history.
    recourse Debatable. History teaches everyone, but some losers do not want to draw a conclusion. request After all, there was turmoil in 1920, and what if the “miracle on the Vistula” happens again? feel
    The imperialists are not finished. angry
    1. 0
      26 August 2023 06: 46
      . But they chose a different path, where only blood and fires await them.

      Oh, yes, with our tolerance for prostitute countries that are spoiling us, to which I, first of all, include Poland and the Baltic states ... "blood and fires of fires" they will wait a long time.
    2. 0
      26 August 2023 09: 00
      Joining the author, I would like to add To the post of prime minister and president, I propose Kisa Vorobyaninov and Panikovsky.
    3. +1
      26 August 2023 15: 52
      "Begging" ... Nonsense. The method is not important, the result is important. Yes
    4. +1
      27 August 2023 21: 13
      Nobody canceled brainwashing, and the desire to bite off (under the patronage of a strong owner) a piece of foreign territory is in the blood of the Poles, and indeed of all Europeans. Only the Poles with their ambition lost the country 3 times, I think that they will also lose 4 times. Well, who needs radioactive wastelands!
  2. +8
    26 August 2023 04: 52
    It is much better to transfer them for a "symbolic dollar" to Poland.

    smile If you want to ruin a banana country, give it an aircraft carrier.
    Poland, having received Ticonderoga ... will jump like a young kid with a big pistol and show everyone what a big trunk he has ... like everyone will be afraid of me.
    1. +5
      26 August 2023 06: 11
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      It is much better to transfer them for a "symbolic dollar" to Poland.

      smile If you want to ruin a banana country, give it an aircraft carrier.
      Poland, having received Ticonderoga ... will jump like a young kid with a big pistol and show everyone what a big trunk he has ... like everyone will be afraid of me.

      So the Poles want to use Ticonderoga as a kind of air defense floating battery, which will cover their port instead of Patriot. Impact capabilities are secondary here.
      1. +3
        26 August 2023 06: 31
        Quote from Escariot
        Impact capabilities are secondary here.

        Who knows...
        Even four cruisers are almost half a thousand cells. Today is air defense, and tomorrow ...

        a ship chained to a pier is just a target. The maximum that he will be capable of is to fire one volley of Tomahawks

        So more is not needed. TLUs of four cruisers can launch 488 missiles. A lot of it? For example, for Belarus a lot ...
        And the worst thing is that we have no influence on this situation. If the Democrats agree, the issue will be resolved. Polish politicians, apparently, do not care about the fate of their people. They are frantically arming themselves with long-term loans (there are great doubts that anyone will pay them at all) in order to sacrifice themselves in a future big war for the strategy of democrats from the hill ...
        1. -1
          27 August 2023 21: 18
          And the worst thing is that we have no influence on this situation. If the Democrats agree, the issue will be resolved. Polish politicians, apparently, do not care about the fate of their people.
          I have always been interested in the question: Why not officially declare "We are for world peace, but if Poland (for example) deploys missile defense missiles on its territory, we will immediately launch a nuclear strike on Washington"! After all, missile defense missiles in Poland are a disarming blow to our global deterrence system. Not announced. So money is more valuable than your own survival?! Very strange.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. 0
            28 August 2023 21: 14
            Vic Vic
            Today, 21: 09
            NEW
            0
            For any significant disorder in the world, in one way or another negatively affecting the security of Russia - hit the stars and stripes. Oh how I wish I could do that bully
            Joking aside, in general, the owner is responsible for the dog's misbehavior. And so, what happens, the United States from its distant "island" whole and unharmed will watch how bitten Russia strangles American mongrels.
    2. +1
      26 August 2023 13: 05
      The original was a cruiser stop An aircraft carrier is a ruin even for a great power. A cruiser is enough for panstvo.
  3. +6
    26 August 2023 05: 18
    The Baltic, after undermining our gas pipelines, has acquired a new status.
    Yes. This status is not official. But in the history of mankind, such people are stronger than officialdom.
    The status of an uncivilized space where everything is possible.
    Denmark, Sweden and Germany, hiding the perpetrators of the undermining, actually gave other countries carte blanche for similar decisions.

    Forcing is not our method .. but if Tikanderogs appear in Gdynia ..
    enhance them sleepless nights to protect the sea area is a must.
    Yes, so that every piece of foam on the wave - they dreamed of a problem!

    At the same time, Tikanderogs will become the most obvious target for our underwater drones - of all the border waters of Russia. And in the conditions of the Baltic, underwater drones are perhaps the best solutions for military use. Despite the fact that our bases are much better protected than the Polish naval base.

    Pandora's box (including in the Baltic) was not opened by us.
    And until the perpetrators of the explosion are found, stories for the Poles and the Balts,
    with the Russian "suddenly" - should become a nightly nightmare.
    1. -1
      26 August 2023 05: 47
      Quote: Feodor13
      Pandora's box (including in the Baltic) was not opened by us.

      The Balts are threatening to inspect all ships going through the Gulf of Finland to Kaliningrad from Russia.
      Hehe, the Baltic is easy to block with minefields and sea drones ... such an undertaking will come to them sideways.
    2. +1
      26 August 2023 15: 44
      It turns out we have underwater drones? I haven’t heard of surface drones anywhere either, although maybe I just wasn’t interested ... Can you name what these underwater drones are? Where can you read about them?
  4. +3
    26 August 2023 05: 35
    Despite all the power of its on-board electronic systems and radar stations, the presence of long-range cruise missiles and missiles, a ship chained to the pier is just a target.

    Yes, any stationary system is only a target, and what, stationary systems are now a thing of the past?
    1. 0
      26 August 2023 06: 51
      Quote from Escariot
      Despite all the power of its on-board electronic systems and radar stations, the presence of long-range cruise missiles and missiles, a ship chained to the pier is just a target.

      Yes, any stationary system is only a target, and what, stationary systems are now a thing of the past?

      The targets are standing, only the shooters do not have a command to hit them.
  5. +4
    26 August 2023 06: 18
    But they chose a different path, where only blood and fires await them.
    A small logical error from the author. They didn't choose any path. Since they are not the subject of international politics. De jure, you can say whatever you want, but de facto it is. They are the subject of politics. And therefore they have neither the strength nor the opportunity to choose anything. Just follow the orders of the master.
    Another question is what can be done carelessly and sabotaging. And even arranging small dirty tricks.
    And you can do it with enthusiasm, quietly/loudly squealing with ecstasy and passionately looking into the eyes of the owner in search of approval and a new... uh... forgive the moderators, frictions. And here the choice of these objects of international politics is obvious: their path is just this last one.
    Well, what about the outcome of such political intimate friendship is predictable and never ends with a "magnificent wedding", but with a disability or even a morgue. Understanding such a result, as always, lies beyond the boundaries of the worldview of such countries with reduced political responsibility.
  6. IVZ
    -1
    26 August 2023 06: 35
    In general, from a military point of view, Poland will be nothing but trouble from American cruisers.
    Yes. But only if they do not plan to be the first to launch a massive disarming strike. In general, they are asking for "by snot."
  7. -2
    26 August 2023 06: 35
    Quote from Escariot
    So the Poles want to use Ticonderoga as a kind of air defense floating battery,

    This is unlikely ... wassat
    It will sink like "Moscow" ... with a diagnosis of fire in a casemate with shells. request
    1. -1
      26 August 2023 06: 49
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      Quote from Escariot
      So the Poles want to use Ticonderoga as a kind of air defense floating battery,

      This is unlikely ... wassat
      It will sink like "Moscow" ... with a diagnosis of fire in a casemate with shells. request

      Drowning while in a dry dock is very problematic.
      1. 0
        28 August 2023 11: 15
        Quote from Escariot
        Drowning while in a dry dock is very problematic.

        Somewhere the destroyers Kessin, Downs, and Shaw sighed sadly. wink

        By the way, there was an enchanting story - the first couple of EMs were put into a dry dock for a fairly serious repair (replacing the skin, repairing the shaft lines) without unloading the main battery ammunition and torpedoes. Near LK "Pennsylvania". belay
    2. +2
      26 August 2023 15: 48
      You are just like the TV star Simonyan, threatening the American military from TV screens, promising them to arrange air transport crashes around the world ....
  8. IVZ
    -1
    26 August 2023 06: 40
    All that was required was to remain neutral and behave decently.
    And the government of which country, which is in the zone of influence of the Anglo-Saxons, "behaves decently"? In my opinion, major claims all the same, not only and not so much to Poland.
  9. +2
    26 August 2023 07: 18
    Comedian Ze knows how to build "greatness" with the help of begging. It looks like he shared his experience with the psheks.
  10. +9
    26 August 2023 08: 43
    In reality, the question does not look at all like in the next portion of Mitrofanovism.
    To begin with, you should not drag an owl to the globe and pass off the private opinion of a "former officer" as something state. The Defnce24 website, edited by Dura, is the Polish version of the Military Review website. Here, too, local authors do not write anything.
    And secondly, American "cruisers" in Europe began to be deployed in Europe since 2016 in the form of a ground-based version of the Aegis Aegis Ashore missile defense system.



    This is Romania, the NATO missile defense base in Deveselu.



    And this is a similar base in Poland, in Redzikowo.

    Aegis Ashore is an Aegis ship system permanently installed on land. The Pole proposes the option of expanding the European missile defense system by using the weapons of decommissioned American cruisers. There is logic in such a proposal and it should be taken quite seriously, because the number of NATO missile defense bases in Europe can very quickly increase many times over.
    1. 0
      27 August 2023 22: 42
      In addition, unlike land-based stationary installations, marine ones can be moved using tugs or auxiliary engines of low power.
  11. +3
    26 August 2023 09: 15
    In general, the reasoning that white is black.
    If good boats are written off somewhere, then why not buy them if they don’t have them themselves.? Question you price.
    How India and China bought ships from us.

    Again, a couple of ships will not make the weather, but for stability in the aircraft - perhaps yes.
    And then: either rockets fall on Poland from somewhere, then the Old Man fires endlessly at the border, then he pushes bearded migrants, then the NMD is not far away, and the well-known Medvedev threatens nuclear weapons to everyone for already their theoretical NMD in Ukraine .....

    HPP in action - arm yourself as best you can, if you discard the black PR from the article ...
  12. -1
    26 August 2023 09: 22
    It doesn’t smell like a freebie))) because they are written off because the content becomes unbearable. It would have been written off a long time ago, but Congress does not allow it.
    1. +1
      27 August 2023 04: 35
      It would have been written off a long time ago, but Congress does not allow it.
      It's not Congress that's stopping them. Congress that drawbar - where it turned, it went there. The PLA Navy is interfering with them. Which are already numerically superior to the Amer fleet, and continue to increase the difference.
  13. +1
    26 August 2023 09: 49
    Poland could build its own cruiser. Let them call Walesa, he will restore the Gdansk shipyard, and then even a cruiser, even an aircraft carrier Greater Poland - they will succeed))). In extreme cases, the Koreans will be ordered - there is already experience)
    1. +1
      26 August 2023 18: 27
      There used to be excellent shipyards, some of the best in Central Europe.
      But now it makes no sense to restore them in full - terrible money will be spent, but the return will be minimal. Now in Europe the main local shipbuilder is Italy. And the main ones in principle for orders for Europe are South Korea, Japan and a little China. Orders and contracts are planned with them for many decades to come - so Poland, in the event of the restoration of the Gdansk shipyards, will still have to fight to get at least some order at all
      1. 0
        27 August 2023 21: 26
        There used to be excellent shipyards, some of the best in Central Europe.
        They didn't destroy it in order to restore it.
        1. +1
          1 September 2023 13: 36
          Well, they destroyed it at a time when it was profitable. Now maybe they would not mind restoring, but as I wrote, there will be much less benefit than how much they will spend on restoration
  14. 0
    26 August 2023 10: 23
    Don't always trust Google translation. The expression “under the auspices” that is well-established in Russian means “to act under the guidance, under patronage”, which clearly has nothing to do with the defense system, but what it does:
    Aegis (dr. -Greek αἰγίς) - mythical goat-skin cape that belonged to Zeus and possessed magical protective properties.
  15. +4
    26 August 2023 11: 55
    Militant and hatred article; history clearly teaches nothing not only to some politicians, but also to authors ...
  16. +6
    26 August 2023 12: 48
    Oh, how many epithets "Beggars", "beggars", "poor", etc.
    And in fact, what are we talking about - that Poland wants to strengthen its fleet! And this is far from good news. So Sweden and Finland have ceased to be neutral, which means that their fleets are now part of the general naval force in the Baltic of a potential enemy. So also Poland, if it can agree to get 1-2 cruisers at its disposal, even in a slightly truncated form, will noticeably strengthen its fleet in terms of the number of sea carriers of cruise missiles and anti-ship missiles. In addition, an air defense system will also be clearly located on board. This means that the protection of the Polish fleet will increase. The cruisers are quite large, and therefore are equipped with a hangar for a helicopter. By rebuilding the hangar, it can be expanded so that, in addition to a helicopter, 1-2 marine drones would fit into it for additional reconnaissance and target designation in the patrol zone.
    Although it is clear that the audience for which this article is intended will make a good impression! After all, she is so patriotic, the Poles are bashful fools, and we are smart and well done
  17. -2
    26 August 2023 23: 01
    How things change. With me, Ticonderoga was a landing craft.
  18. 0
    28 August 2023 10: 34
    Sign: if Poland is actively arming, this is a section Yes
  19. 0
    29 August 2023 18: 24
    There was already an excellent article on V.O. about the path of Poland and others already in 2018. "When the answer goes into the sand." I re-read it recently - it reads chic from 2023!
  20. +3
    29 August 2023 22: 20
    author, where did you get THIS heresy from? The aircraft-carrying cruiser Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov sold for 1 Indian dollar in the process of being finalized to the aircraft carrier Vikramaditya has risen in price by $2,33 billion.

    firstly, not ON, but UP TO 2.33 billion ..... because when selling the cruiser, the price of the contract was $ 1,6 billion, including, in addition to the cruiser itself, the supply of 16 MiG-29K / KUB carrier-based fighters to it. And for the repair and re-equipment of the Gorshkov itself into a completely DIFFERENT project .... in addition to THIS amount, another $ 875 million was allocated. What are you talking about which cruiser for one dollar? the re-equipment was so expensive because, in fact, the ship was dismantled and assembled AGAIN .. according to a completely DIFFERENT project ... TAVKR Gorshkov was a 1143.4 project. and Vikramaditya sistership of our Kuzi - 1143.5 is a COMPLETELY different ship.
  21. AVP
    0
    1 September 2023 17: 40
    Poland is actively preparing for something. Insane in terms of purchases of military equipment - tanks, self-propelled guns, a few aircraft. Moreover, purchases exceed the military budget of subsidized Poland. Attention to the question, but against whom is all this? I would venture to suggest that the threat of the Russian Federation is a front. Poland is scared and has nothing to fight with the Russian Federation, because it will be left alone with the Russian bear, which will not treat this schizophrenia, but simply level the Polish landscape, because our people are not there. But if we exclude the Russian Federation, then what is all this for? Return Lemberg - so much is not needed. And if, to assume that the Germans must pay reparations but for some reason do not want to. After the execution of contracts with the South Caucasus, Poland will have an advantage in heavy equipment with Germany. And who will fit in for Germany in the event of such a conflict? Yes, no one. In Germany itself, this problem is not seen point-blank. Well, herbivorous liver sausages can only "whatever you want." They swallowed the streams, and blew up their own there (according to NATO). The version about Ukrainians, who seem to be in business, but it seems like how to supply them with leopards - these are obvious mutually exclusive parameters, but who will notice this shiz. So soon someone will be divided. And we will see it in the front row.
  22. 0
    2 September 2023 09: 52
    There will be no preemptive strike. For the towers, it's like doing hara-kiri to yourself. Shake a loaf on partners? Unthinkable. The interests of the lads and the interests of the people of the Russian Federation, to put it mildly, are very far away. This is to the fact that axes on cruisers will suddenly end up in Poland.
  23. 0
    3 September 2023 12: 53
    IMHO: the problem of Poland, as well as other countries, is that the interests of the Polish political elite do not coincide with the interests of the population, but coincide with the interests of the American political elite.