Destruction with confirmation: the use of the Lancet-3 kamikaze UAV from the Orion UAV carriers will defiantly destroy Ukrainian Patriot air defense systems and HIMARS MLRS

UAV "Orion" и UAV "Lancet-3"

Information warfare priorities

In the course of the Russian Special Military Operation (SVO) in Ukraine, the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation (RF Armed Forces) are defeating a wide range of weapons and military equipment (AME) used by the Armed Forces of Ukraine (AFU).

A distinctive feature of the NMD is the wide coverage of hostilities in the media of the warring parties, as well as other countries, both involved and not involved in the conflict. As part of a hot and information war, both sides constantly accuse each other of overstating the number of their victories and underestimating their losses. In turn, this requires a responsible approach to providing evidence of the facts of the destruction of enemy targets.

Moreover, even truthful information, but not clearly conveyed, can be interpreted as a deliberate lie - we all remember the case of a Ka-52 combat helicopter that allegedly destroyed a peaceful Ukrainian combine.

It is quite difficult to identify what exactly was destroyed by such a frame.

It would seem, what is the business of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation? Why on earth should they not fight the enemy, but prove the facts of their victories to the public?

The problem is that information warfare has a direct impact on the course of a real military conflict between Russia and Ukraine, which is backed by Western countries. And the point here is not only the motivation of the population and fighters, their willingness to bear hardships and die on the front lines, but, first of all, the desire and readiness of Western countries to provide Ukraine with everything necessary for combat operations, including the latest weapons.

Colorful pictures of the destruction in Ukraine of the latest models of Western military equipment are unlikely to contribute to its sale in the foreign and domestic markets, and this in turn will push defense concerns to influence their lobbyists in governments and the armed forces: “Why us? Why our weapon should be supplied to the Armed Forces of Ukraine, which will incompetently and publicly (!) burn it during an unsuccessful counteroffensive on the positions of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation?” There is no doubt that such thoughts are present in the minds of shareholders and leaders of Western defense concerns.

A large number of high-quality video materials of the destruction of enemy weapons and military equipment are supplied to the RF Armed Forces by unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) - the Lancet-3 kamikaze, which have become the undoubted stars of the NMD. The problem is that Lancet-3 kamikaze UAVs can operate at a distance of no more than about 40-70 kilometers from the launch point.

But such shots are unlikely to cause a surge of enthusiasm among our opponents - the destruction of the German self-propelled guns PzH 2000 using the Lancet-3 kamikaze UAV

Elusive targets

For example, if the HIMARS MLRS operates with GMLRS ammunition with a maximum range exceeding 70 kilometers, then the range of the Lancet-3 UAV will be enough back to back, while it will not have a cruising range for searching or loitering in anticipation of a target, and speed will not allow shooting in advance the flight of the Lancet and the unpredictability of the point from which HIMARS can start working.

The possibility of hitting the HIMARS MLRS with the Lancet when it operates with GLSBG ammunition with a firing range of 150 kilometers or an ATACMS operational-tactical missile with a firing range of 300 kilometers is out of the question, unless the HMARS MLRS approaches the front line in order to hit targets to the maximum depth of our territory.

That is why we have practically no clear evidence of the destruction of the HIMARS MLRS, and the Armed Forces of Ukraine still declare that all HIMARS launchers are safe and sound.

Footage of the alleged defeat of the MLRS HIMARS

It is even more difficult to hit, and most importantly, to confirm the defeat, Patriot long-range anti-aircraft missile systems (SAMs), which the Armed Forces of Ukraine protect and place at a decent distance from the front line, using them to cover Kiev and, possibly, some other large cities and industrial facilities.

Despite the statements of the RF Armed Forces about the destruction of several Patriot air defense systems by aeroballistic hypersonic missiles of the Kinzhal complex, there is no confirmation of this, which allows the Armed Forces of Ukraine to declare that the complexes are either completely unharmed or received minor damage. (although if the Armed Forces of Ukraine and their curators from the USA are talking about “minor damage”, then there is clearly little left of the air defense system, or they would not say anything at all). Moreover, Ukrainian Armed Forces say they shot down Kinzhal missiles using Patriot air defense system (assuming that they hit the missiles directly with launchers and air defense radars, then this is probably most likely true).

Nevertheless, it is necessary both to solve the problem of increasing the probability of hitting distant and highly maneuverable targets, and to provide reliable confirmation of the facts of destruction.

UAV to UAV

The idea of ​​a UAV, which is the carrier of small UAVs, is in the air and has been discussed for quite a long time, a lot of projects and concepts are being developed as part of solving this issue. The title of the article mentions the Russian Lancet-3 kamikaze UAV and the Orion UAV, which is proposed to be used as a carrier.

Why are these products considered?

If we talk about the Lancet-3 kamikaze UAV, then everything is clear here - a well-developed design, we simply have nothing better. As for the Orion UAV, it is even easier with it - it is the only medium-altitude UAV (MALE class) in Russia with a long flight duration. Since time is one of the most critical factors in the conduct of hostilities, it is best to build a bunch of “UAV to UAV” based on the most mature serial solutions.

UAV "Lancet-3"

The estimated mass of the Lancet-3 kamikaze UAV is 12 kilograms, possibly more. The declared carrying capacity of the export version of the Orion-E UAV is 250 kilograms. At the same time, it must be taken into account that we will need equipment for relaying the control signal and the reverse video signal from the launched kamikaze UAVs.

UAV "Orion"

Based on the foregoing, it can be assumed that the Orion UAV will be able to carry 6–12 Lancet-3 kamikaze UAVs.

Given the lack of high-speed satellite communication networks in Russia, the control of the Orion UAV and the Lancet-3 kamikaze UAV launched from it will have to be carried out through a repeater, that is, in fact, the Lancet-3 kamikaze UAV will be controlled through two repeaters, one of which the UAV-carrier "Orion" will act. This carries the risk of delays that are unacceptable when controlling sufficiently high-speed aircraft.

A possible solution could be the use of machines made on the basis of an air command post based on Tu-214PU aircraft (control point), Tu-214SUS (aircraft communication center) or similar solutions equipped with the necessary means of communication and workplaces, behind which operators will be located , which control both the Orion carrier UAV and the Lancet-3 kamikaze UAV launched from it. A similar scheme of interaction between manned and unmanned aerial vehicles has already been considered by the author in the article "Russian "Valkyrie": UAV "Thunder".

Tu-214SUS

Even in the case when the UAV-carrier and UAV-kamikaze will be controlled from the aircraft-command post, the capabilities of such a reconnaissance-strike complex will be very high. If Russia has its own network of low-orbit satellites of high-speed communication with low delays, as well as promising UAV carriers with an increased flight range, then their capabilities will become truly limitless (from a geographical point of view).

Application tactics

After receiving primary information about the possible location of potential targets, one or more Orion UAVs with the Lancet-3 UAVs fixed under the wings rise into the air and advance to the effective distance, taking into account the maximum possible loitering time of the kamikaze UAV, with minimal risks to the carrier .

Depending on what types of air defense systems the enemy has in a given area, a high-altitude or low-altitude flight profile can be selected. In the second case, the flight route of the UAV-carrier should pass over a deserted, preferably wooded area. At the same time, the aircraft-command post takes off and, after climbing, takes control of the UAV-carriers.

Upon a signal from the command post, the UAV-carrier launches the kamikaze UAV, after which it continues loitering to ensure the relay of communication signals. Kamikaze UAVs enter the area where the targets are supposed to be and search for them. After detecting the targets, kamikaze UAVs carry out their defeat.

Presumably, the most optimal solution will be a paired attack of targets, when the second kamikaze UAV will fix the blow inflicted by the first kamikaze UAV, thereby confirming the hit of the target, and then minimizing the likelihood of its repair and recovery with a second strike. Eg, the first kamikaze UAV can be equipped with cumulative fragmentation ammunition, and the second with incendiary.

The estimated range of a combination of UAV-carrier + UAV-kamikaze under control from a command post aircraft can exceed 300-350 kilometers. When using the high-altitude flight profile of the carrier UAV, the flight range of the kamikaze UAV will increase, which will increase the total range of the complex as a whole. It should be taken into account that the specified range is limited by means of communication - the Orion UAV itself can cover much greater distances, which will allow you to flexibly build a flight route to bypass enemy air defenses.

In addition to the HIMARS MLRS and Patriot air defense systems mentioned in the title of the article, for example, the Orion carrier UAV and the Lancet-3 kamikaze UAV can be Su-24 aircraft carrying out strikes with long-range high-precision missiles against the RF Armed Forces and the civilian infrastructure of our country. And when the F-16 fighter jets arrive in Ukraine, they will also receive a warm welcome.

Looking into the distance

There is another potentially interesting way to hit high priority targets with confirmation of the fact of their destruction.

In this scenario, the Lancet-3 kamikaze UAVs should lose their warhead in favor of an increased capacity battery to increase the range and duration of the flight. That is, the Lancet turns into a purely reconnaissance UAV. It is possible that a small warhead weighing several hundred grams will remain, primarily so that the UAV does not get to the enemy after using up electricity. In addition, it is quite possible to shy away at some easily vulnerable target at the end of the mission, for example, at a high-ranking officer accidentally discovered or at foreign mercenaries. 

The very number of Lancet reconnaissance UAVs aboard the Orion UAV carrier can also be reduced to increase the range of the complex. In general, this is a matter of priorities - more reconnaissance UAVs - more coverage area, less range of the complex, or vice versa.

The tactics of use are approximately the same - after the UAV-carrier enters the launch area, UAV reconnaissance aircraft move to the area of ​​​​the intended location of the target. But only after the targets are detected, their defeat is carried out not by a kamikaze UAV attack, but by something long-range and high-speed, for example, missiles of operational-tactical missile systems (OTRK) "Iskander", anti-ship missiles (ASM) "Onyx", aeroballistic missiles "Dagger" or Kh-22/32.

The missile of the Kinzhal complex in flight - a bunch of Orion UAV + Lancet UAV, you just need to indicate the exact coordinates of the target and fix the fact of hit

In this scenario, reconnaissance UAVs not only accurately detect the location of targets, but also reliably confirm the fact of their destruction.

Conclusions

The military conflict on the territory of Ukraine inevitably changes the views on how military operations will be conducted in the foreseeable future. Information counteraction during the NMD has reached unthinkable heights, the whole world is watching the course of hostilities, and the war is not only for territories, but also for souls.

Destruction with confirmation of high-priority targets will allow solving two most important tasks at once - inflicting significant damage on the enemy’s armed forces, as well as discrediting his ability to fight and the effectiveness of the latest weapons systems supplied to him by Western countries.

Comments

[alexoff]

The author lost the most important point - determining the direction and time of launching the lancets. Someone needs to detect Hemars launches literally immediately, transfer data to the operator of a large drone. I’m not talking about the Patriots, their RER should be easy to find and this is a fixed target among several installations throughout the country. Here another organizational moment arises - all or almost all of the lancets will definitely fly in one gulp, which means that a dozen lancet operators with rolled up sleeves should sit next to the Orion operator, ready to raid the roads in the launch area in search of a target. That is, this is a rather serious structure for hundreds of operators, which, of course, can solve the problem with due perseverance. And the Russian military command is completely unprepared for such feats, since then very effectively working officers will appear in such new structures (high-priority targets are destroyed, there are no losses, journalists dance round dances), and look, Comrade General will sit up!
And I also note that you can burn American equipment on cameras as much as you like, they will still buy from them, because otherwise they will find corruption and racism, and if anyone has extra money, they will invest in American bonds.

[tihonmarine]

Quote from alexoff

And I’ll also note that you can burn American equipment on cameras as much as you like, they will still buy from them, because otherwise they will find corruption and racism

Everything here is elementary simple - the owner orders, the vassals buy, as with the same "Patriot". South Korea created its own complex, but the United States, shelved and forced to buy a Patriot, but there is no other on the market.

[Yarik]

Our Koreans were helped, so the United States slowed them down.

[Simple]

Quote from alexoff

it means that next to the operator of the orion there should be a dozen operators of lancets with rolled up sleeves,

The problem is being solved by the KI operator, but that's not in this war.
Perhaps the appearance of KI - company, battalion, brigade and "general" subordination, but this is even further.

[bayard]

Quote from alexoff

The author lost the most important point - determining the direction and time of launching the lancets.

Yes, everything is just simple here - the Orion (or another carrier, for example, the twin-engine Sirius) enters the search zone, releases Lancets, while remaining at a safe distance, relaying. Another thing is that you need either a satellite channel (you can borrow from the Chinese if your own satellites are not enough), or a command control aircraft. as the author described.
When hunting for air defense systems (why only "Patriot"), you need to immediately send from 2 to 4 "Lancets", because any air defense system is a radar, a command trailer and launchers of which there are several. The most important target is radar. The second priority is the command trailer / car (but he / she will just be well masked). Well, then already launchers, which should provide quite a spectacular fireworks display.
"Haymars" will have to wait in the air until they leave the shelter, because they are not in the open air for long - only during the shooting exit. But other goals ... for example - hunting for echelons with equipment. First of all, having discovered such a train, one or two "Lancets" hit the locomotive, and immobilizing the train, the rest begins to hit equipment on the platforms, wagons with ammunition and other military equipment. It will also be possible to aim the Iskander at such an immobilized target.
It is possible to arrange a hunt for command personnel with such a tool, for warehouses and equipment in the deep rear ... even in Kyiv you can arrange such a show.
But you need a reliable link: a control center (possibly flying), an UAV carrier / repeater, shock UAVs (let's say the Lancet). It's not as easy as it seems, but not as difficult as it seems.

[alexoff]

Re-read it again - who in your bunch tells where the rockets flew from? Orion? He does not have such a radar, it can be some kind of C300 radar or something of the same level. If you know where the target is, it means the task is solved by 70%, hitting it is a matter of technology

[bayard]

Quote from alexoff

where did the rockets come from? Orion? It doesn't have that kind of radar

He has an OLS, it does not radiate, does not impersonate it and searches with optics. The "Orion" (or "Sirius") takes off to the search area, where, presumably, according to the previous serifs of their radars, there are their air defense systems. In the active search zone, "Lancets" are released and conduct an active search themselves, when they are found, they hit. If they don't find it, they find other targets for themselves. If they find an air defense system with one or two UAVs, they destroy the radar (it is important to destroy it completely), then the command vehicle / trailer (be sure to burn out), the rest - according to the launcher.
But for such bundles of UAVs, there may be other tasks. And there can be a lot of them.
But the author made a mistake in the Orion payload, he has 50 kg. , so one will take no more than 4 "Lancets". But "Sirius" - 450 kg. and this is serious. you can take a powerful and high-quality OLS with a good zoom, a satellite communication station and a fairly large number of Lancets.
Now in the NWO, UAVs are successfully searching with their optics, finding and destroying air defense systems and counter-battery radars. It will be even more effective to do this with a bunch. And by installing RTR equipment with the direction finding of working radars on the Sirius, they will receive target designation of the search zone with optics. And it will be very effective.

[alexoff]

I wrote at the very beginning that it is not difficult to find the positions of the air defense system, for this a small flying wing from the hall is better suited, which, unlike the orion, is almost invisible to radars. Finding an emitting radar is even easier. How to catch hemars? There, time literally goes by for minutes, if you calculate the coordinates at the time of launch, then you can send at least a couple of Mi-35s directly so that they not only smash the hemars with nurses point-blank, but also take a selfie against the background of sunflowers hung on the nearest tree.

[Vasya Vasiliev_3]

They say that artificial intelligence or photo targets were introduced into the lancets, and from the photo it recognizes the target, you can put heat direction finders that work on rocket bursts, the average direction finder can detect a missile launch at a distance of 30 km. For example, ours launch missiles at targets, Ukrainian air defenses turn on, and in at this time, these kamikazes are launched from drones to suppress air defense. It would be better to equip these kamikazes with homing heads for any radars that the Jews made, such kamikazes of the Jews, Azeris knocked out the air defense of Armenians

[yuliatreb]

Well, and one more small but, expensive models of military equipment, which, in principle, are installed permanently, I'm talking about the adversary's air defense systems, are guarded by an equally expensive electronic warfare system and backup air defense systems. One should not underestimate their capabilities, it is easier but more inhumane to use blocking cluster munitions, if any, and do not hesitate to use them, and no one has canceled carpet bombing, the less our military leadership will pretend to be a decent bastard, the more we will save our lives soldiers and officers.

[Thrifty]

I would like to know why there is no unit in priority that had the identification and defeat of long-range artillery and MLRS? Is this such an unsolvable problem? It is necessary to change priorities and create a strike group, including with the participation of aviation, to eliminate long-range cannon artillery and enemy MLRS.

[alexoff]

Yes, even there are no units to destroy enemy artillery! And in general, there is nothing that could be called an "operation" where something cunning would be planned

[Rome]

To conduct a counter-battery fight should have the capabilities and skills of a standard art unit, allocating an outfit of forces as necessary. Our problem, as I understand it, is the lack of a full-time artillery reconnaissance radar, and the bourgeoisie have several of them for each division!
They have one radar to correct their artillery along the routes of their shells, while others are looking for enemy artillery! As I understand it, we have 1 radar per army and the one with the training crew

[alexoff]

I'm talking about the fact that these few radars could be reduced to fire brigades, which would be given the freshest and most modernized Msta-s, which would crush all enemy artillery on an important sector of the front. And when it is small and it is also smeared with a thin layer, then zero sense

[Vasya Vasiliev_3]

we have MLRS with homing elements. Both guided projectiles are equipped with cluster warheads. 9M544 carries 552 cumulative fragmentation warheads weighing 240 g each. Such an element pierces 140 mm of homogeneous armor, and also scatters fragments within a radius of several meters. The warhead of the 9M549 projectile carries 72 larger fragmentation submunitions. Due to such variants of the combat load, both missiles can hit various kinds of area targets - manpower, equipment, incl. armored, artillery in positions, stationary objects, etc.

A new missile part with a more efficient solid-propellant engine has been developed for the shells. With its help, the maximum firing range was increased to 120 km. For comparison, the early Smerch missiles flew only 70 km, and in later projects this parameter was increased to 90 km.

[Simple]

Quote: yuliatreb

it is easier but more inhumane to use barrage cluster munitions, if any, and do not be shy to use them

The Russian army is already using them and (perhaps from the very beginning of the NWO) - no one has any hesitation here.

[Ross xnumx]

The military conflict on the territory of Ukraine inevitably changes views on how military operations will be conducted in the foreseeable future. Information counteraction during the conduct of the NMD has reached unthinkable heights, the whole world is watching the course of hostilities, and The war is not only for territories, but also for souls.

And most importantly, that the results of the conduct of hostilities do not tear the soul with questions: “Why?” and "How long?" And in this process, the moment of effectiveness is also important. And the one who says:

Destruction with confirmation: the use of the Lancet-3 kamikaze UAV from the Orion UAV carriers will defiantly destroy Ukrainian Patriot air defense systems and HIMARS MLRS

Better to see once than hear a hundred times.
And the rest of the technical features for the population are unimportant and, given the shortage in the country of 700 highly qualified technical workers, are of little interest.

[Pete mitchell]

Quote: ROSS 42

the main thing is that the results of the conduct of hostilities do not tear the soul ...

The author raises a burning topic: Information Support actions of the State - for the layman, aka Mr. taxpayer, it suffers - Suslov is turning over in his grave. But when they talk about the priority of slides and beautiful pictures for guidance ... this is generally unacceptable, it is necessary to punish.
Separate sad topic paperwork on LBS - nonsense, the guys complain that they are required from them, while for weeks they cannot provide a bathhouse and wash

[Constantine N]

lancets can’t shoot it all down, but NATO probably has normal drone strikers, and they’ll definitely cover petriots from such large drones.
it's like geraniums. the drone is almost the size of an airplane, and they are trying to shoot it down with small arms, simply because there is nothing. and NATO will have no problem detecting and shooting them down if necessary.

[Luminman]

According to the specifications Lanceta-3, then its avionics uses a set of chips from an American company nVIDIA. It would be interesting to know how and where these microchips are mined under such severe sanctions?

[svp67]

Quote: Luminman

It would be interesting to know how and where these microchips are mined under such severe sanctions?

Well, first you need to understand where they are produced, these chips. Suddenly it turns out that in "one" of the countries of the "Asian-Pacific regton"

[Luminman]

Quote: svp67

Well, first you need to understand where they are produced, these chips

Where they are produced is obvious. However, the company placing the order probably controls all of the products produced, as well as their distribution. The production of microchips, yet not the production of Christmas tree decorations...

[1 z1]

controls all products manufactured

They produce products alone, but hundreds of companies sell it. It is impossible to control all sales and most likely you don’t really want to. The technologies of "parallel import" were developed in the dark, back in those days when you didn’t even dream about CBO. The simplest example is the purchase of original spare parts for cars. Through the online store, a "distant relative" in a neutral country buys spare parts and the most difficult part remains - to transport them to Russia. If we are talking about components in which the state is interested, you should definitely not expect problems with shipping and customs.

[Luminman]

Quote: 1z1

You should definitely not expect problems with shipping and customs

At our customs, there will be no problems for sure. But at the customs of the exporting country, questions will certainly arise. And before getting to customs, the manufacturer will check a thousand times where its products go, and these products, after all, are dual-use ...

[S. Nikolaev]

the manufacturer checks a thousand times

He does not intend to and will not check anything. Because its main task is threshing and grain delivery, that is, making a profit. The State Department needs it, so let it check it. And you can't put an official from the State Department in every shop.

[meandr51]

Back in 1972, a photodetector from the first laser-guided Wollay glide bomb was brought to our institute from Vietnam. Ours then were 2 orders of magnitude worse. It turned out that they can be safely ordered from the Texas Instruments catalog. Which they did.

[Xenofont]

With the appropriate organization of the process in production, it is quite realistic to identify part of the products as defective and send them to the right place through front companies supposedly engaged in the processing of defective products.

[Pete mitchell]

Quote: Luminman

It would be interesting to know how and where ... ?

But it’s not at all interesting: honor called those who provide it. It would be interesting to know what actions are being taken to get rid of addiction. The current conflict 100% clearly demonstrated the inadmissibility depending on in any area. To paraphrase folk wisdom:- whoever pays for a girl dances her

[Mavrikiy]

Destruction with confirmation: the use of the Lancet-3 kamikaze UAV from the Orion UAV carriers will defiantly destroy Ukrainian Patriot air defense systems and HIMARS MLRS

"Well, desires are close to us ...", but the Patriot air defense system may well hit the Orion UAV carrier, then, what to do?

[Arkadich]

This is what is called a war of attrition. Cost, ability to produce and, most importantly, deliver on time. The Patriot rocket is much more expensive than the Orion, even with the Lancets.

[Soldatov V.]

In addition to the Lancet, it is possible to install a rocket from the Chrysanthemum complex on the Orion. And on the Orion itself, the missile detection and control system. Then it is possible to destroy tank accumulations deep behind enemy lines. If you're lucky, then the "Himers" and "Patriots"
In general, this destruction of all gas stations, and regional electrical substations and networks will bring more damage.
When the enemy uses all types of so-called inhumane weapons, such as cluster munitions, then our non-use of cluster munitions is inhumane towards our population and our troops. For example, in Harvest, as I understand it, there is no population, so massively use cluster weapons there.

[Arkadich]

Launching a rocket from Chrysanthemum from Orion will cause damage to Orion, it is not designed for such loads.

[Simple]

It is also an opportunity to once again designate yourself in the sky.

[Vadim S]

Or maybe still put the same Hermes on Orion? If you believe the advertisement, the rocket flies almost a hundred kilometers and at great speed, the warhead is many times more powerful and it’s definitely more difficult to shoot it down than a lancet butterfly. Why is everything quiet about Hermes? Why the complexity with a bunch of control channels, when here's a chic complex for you!

[Simple]

The Hermes does not have a barrage mode and search for a target through an operator.

[maiman61]

I am a tanker and not a specialist in UAVs, but there are stationary targets, such as air defense systems at a range exceeding the radius of destruction of the Lancets. In this case, maybe it is necessary to provide additional discharged batteries to increase the radius of destruction? Like airplanes have jettisonable fuel tanks. The lancet flies to the target, dumps the used batteries and flies further on its batteries.

[bk0010]

Quote: maiman61

In this case, maybe it is necessary to provide additional discharged batteries to increase the radius of destruction? Like airplanes have jettisonable fuel tanks.

Fuel tanks are dumped because they spoil the aerodynamics. Batteries are placed inside. Batteries are expensive, the mass of a charged and discharged battery is the same (well, almost).

[meandr51]

Why does a kamikaze drone need an empty battery?

[solar]

The flight range of a UAV is determined not only by batteries, but also by the capabilities of communication channels, control and transmission of video and telemetry.
If they are designed for 30 km, then no battery at a greater distance will give anything. Unless it will increase the barrage time within the same 30 km.

[Mikhail Maslov]

Why such difficulties.? New UAVs have already been developed and are waiting to be put into series. I don’t know how soon this will happen, but the developer claims there is everything from the mini Mavik type to the strategist with a range of 3000 km (all this was at the Army-2023 exhibition). And the "Lancets" have already been combined into a "network-swarm." A very serious EW issue, experts say the Armed Forces of Ukraine have excellent EWB that quickly changes to suit the needs of the customer. And the most interesting thing is mainly the production of Ukraine. It is clear that the components are from enemies, but the fact the weakness of our electronic warfare in ground deployment, which gives the enemy a high chance of destruction.

[Bear]

Dear author, the scheme of operation of two Orions has long been worked out, one of which is a repeater, so there is no need to use a VZPU or a repeater aircraft. This is the first, and second, the delay in the operation of a satellite channel through a geostationary satellite is on average 0,5 seconds - this delay time is compensated by hardware and software, and 512 kbps is enough to transmit online video, which is not a problem for a long time for satellite communications, even in the C-band, not to mention the Ku-band. And as you know, the Orion is already using a satellite control channel through geostationary communication satellites.

[Arkadich]

You are right, only the author did not mean delays, but periodic loss of communication both due to the appearance of "intermediaries" of repeaters, as well as the lack of a permanent location of our satellites over Ukraine.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Geostationary satellites are stationary because they hang stationary.

[Arkadich]

They do not operate via geostationary satellites. Due to their height, a low-power signal will not reach, and we have few low-orbit ones.

[Anatoly Popov]

now the most important thing is not to say "gop" until you jump over, so that it doesn't turn out like with Luna-25.

[malyvalv]

The key point in all this is the free and long stay of the Orion-class UAV in the depths of enemy territory. For example, Bayraktars did not master such a task of being over our territory thanks to our air defense. Recent footage of the destruction of an echelon with a BP in the depths of enemy territory gives hope that we will succeed.

[Ezekiel 25-17]

The idea is good, it is necessary to try. Again, we seem to have or almost ready Hunter; you can try to combine with the Su-57. Well, as an option, it is necessary to increase the scale of the use of Geraniums. Together it will be very unpleasant. I'm not saying that all this can be put on SB like Davy Crockett.

[Nikolaevich I]

Oh, these fairy tales ... Mitrofanova! Oh, this storyteller Mitrofanushka! Honestly, I wanted to read this article in full, but I couldn’t! The article is another example of the excitement of the district of another "newly discovered" prodigy ("miracle weapon")! And the excitement will last until the next "anti-miracle weapon" appears on the battlefield and proves itself! Could this article be of interest? Not excluded! Why didn't I read the entire article? Yes, because in this case I am "not a reader, but a writer"! I myself, not so long ago, sketched out a draft version of an article on the topic: What can be created on the basis of the Lancet. A few points ... I liked it! There is also a draft version of an article on the topic: What can be created on the basis of Geranium-2! I think it's good too! So what is Mitrofanov's article to me?! I'd rather read mine!
PS Oh yes! A dozen such articles will not solve anything ... they will remain "a voice crying in the wilderness" until radical changes take place in the work and structure of the RF Ministry of Defense! Until they understand the need for these transformations at the "very top"! But I have no confidence that such an understanding will "ripen" by 100%!

[Arkadich]

Now what was it? "I haven't read the article, I'd rather have it, though it hasn't been published, it's a draft and hasn't been finalized at all." Were you outdone and offended?
The author collected information, analyzed, drew conclusions, discussion is underway.
And of course, another spit aside, as one put it here, "generals", unfounded, but as traditionally without it.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Arkadich

Now what was it?

You didn't "see" the irony in the comment! Well... it happens... and quite often! And what am I to blame? As the people say: “You can’t put a scarf on every mouth!” ... And a note to my irony is the ending of the comment (PS) ...

[Arkadich]

You next time in a postscript, let's give a tip where to look for your "peculiar and elusive" humor.
But I’m not surprised at all, by the nature of my service, I often heard from people who committed some kind of “byaka”, I usually heard two answers. One of them is "I wanted to joke."

[Sith]

Quote: Luminman

According to the specifications Lanceta-3, then its avionics uses a set of chips from an American company nVIDIA. It would be interesting to know how and where these microchips are mined under such severe sanctions?

Raids on miners are arranged))))

[AdAstra]

Nope, they have already killed chips in their cards, which means there is a high risk that the UAV will turn up before the task is completed.

[Vasya Vasiliev_3]

Class answer, only Russia needs a crypto currency, or better, give each child of the CIS 10 gaming PCs or consoles

[bravo77]

This is the answer to Bayraktar.
Instead of one drone with 2-4 missiles.

Pie of 2 UAVs
do not forget to hang a harp with balalaikas on the wings.

[bravo77]

Quote: Arkadich

This is what is called a war of attrition. Cost, ability to produce and, most importantly, deliver on time. The Patriot rocket is much more expensive than the Orion, even with the Lancets.

Well, yes, but do drones flying to Moscow shoot down from slingshots?

so ukrosponsors have the resources and capacities to supply UAVs
many times, if not ten times more.

get tired of "exhausting" them

[Ezekiel 25-17]

[quote = Luminman] If you believe the technical specifications Lanceta-3, then its avionics uses a set of chips from an American company nVIDIA. It would be interesting to know how and where these microchips are mined under such severe sanctions?
Many knowledge, many sorrows... For you personally: several firms are organized for a short time, registered, say, in countries where customs does not ask unnecessary questions and drives goods from one to another; each transit increases the complexity of detection by an order of magnitude. So, I don't see any problem.

[bravo77]

Quote: Ezekiel 25-17

Many knowledge, many sorrows... For you personally: several firms are organized for a short time, registered, say, in countries where customs does not ask unnecessary questions and drives goods from one to another; each transit increases the complexity of detection by an order of magnitude. So, I don't see any problem.

but I see

simply giving instructions to the supplier under the threat of huge fines
sell products to companies, for example, with a 5-year registration with confirmed commercial activity in these years
and all the smart-ass go through the forest.

[shakespeare58]

Why us? Why should our weapons be supplied to the Armed Forces of Ukraine, which will mediocrely and publicly (!) burn them during an unsuccessful counteroffensive on the positions of the RF Armed Forces?

They already had to dispose of obsolete models of equipment, but the fact that they were burned - well, they are outdated, the protection does not correspond to modern conditions, so the image costs are small.

[Mikhail Zhuravlev]

The article contains a number of rather interesting technical solutions. In my opinion, the integration of kamikaze UAVs and Lancet-based reconnaissance UAVs into the armament complex of Ka-52 and Mi-28 helicopters would allow: a) to attack armored vehicles without entering the enemy’s air defense zone; due to the much smaller mass of the Lancet compared to the ATGM Attack or Whirlwind. In addition, integration with helicopters will be much easier due to the presence of a radar station and a weapons operator on board to aim drones at a target.

[cold wind]

It is in this direction that military thought is moving. The launch of a kamikaze drone from Apache and their interaction have already been worked out.

[abc_alex]

Quote: Mikhail Zhuravlev

integration of kamikaze UAVs and reconnaissance UAVs based on the Lancet into the armament complex of Ka-52 and Mi-28 helicopters

For this there is a "Product 305". Helicopter weapons must be fast, low-speed UAVs will unmask the car and increase the likelihood of damage. A helicopter is not the type of combat vehicle that can provide the Lancet with long loitering over the battlefield or in the rear. They will shoot down.
Helicopters need a reconnaissance UAV and a missile with a combined control mode.

[locks]

To launch such a large apparatus as Orion into the depths of defense means to lose it. Here it is rather important to have a lot of small reconnaissance UAVs with a target designator and the necessary flight duration. And launch a high-speed rocket from wheeled carriers in the rear.

[Simple]

Given the lack of high-speed satellite communication networks in Russia, ...

So far, only three satellites.

[Simple]

Is dissatisfaction expressed for a meager amount or for a posted photo?

So it's not for me.

[Dmitriy22]

Do you really need an operator for the Lancet dropped from Orion? Teplak and a simple program for aiming at a contrasting target will solve the issue better than a person. You just need to point your finger at the adversary.

[Simple]

Not so simple.
Firstly, due to the undeveloped technique of automatic target recognition.
Secondly, if the technique was shot and target designation occurred at the shooting point through Orion to the still undropped "Lancet", then the desired one may be able to catch up, but the second object will be missed.
It's like hunting for two birds with one stone. Therefore, in a possible search area, a pair of conditional "Lancets" should already be loitering.
And the whole bunch of "Orion" and a pair of "Lancets" should have developed autonomy (that is, CI), and not be limited to the reaction of their operators.

[runway-1]

The article is a stream of (very) badly connected to reality and (very) loose discussions on the stated topic, but very inspired ...

[Simple]

We powder the brains of the enemy as best we can!

[Pechorsky]

It is urgent to revise GOSTs RV. In our time, they are pulling back all innovations. It is necessary to create a single corporation that would manufacture everything that is needed in the interests of the Moscow Region (for example, from switches, pumps, electronics, etc.) with integration into the civil sphere. Let it be with the involvement of China, with adaptation to our systems, I mean special checks. But this will significantly reduce the time for introducing new technologies into our weapons.

[Victor Murashev_2]

And why not use Geraniums as carriers for Lancets? She can fly at least 1000 km and can first deliver the Lancet to the intended locations of the air defense systems, MLRS, and long-range artillery installations transmitted by intelligence, and after launching the Lancet, continue flying to the main target.
In this case, even 300 km or more from the front, not a single MLRS or air defense system will feel safe. :)

[Eleazar bin Shaul]

Dreams, dreams, where is your sweetness?
If Shoigu wrote an article, it's another matter

[DWG1905]

A large UAV with a piston engine is not a tenant, this is an air defense dream. We need a high-altitude UAV as a repeater and target indicator, by eye a flight of 30 km. Not every complex will get it. But this is not feasible, there is no engine. A UAV - a pseudo-satellite, with electric motors and solar panels at an altitude of 50 km, cannot be done quickly either, if the capitalists could have already done it. So, let's push it back. It is very difficult to catch MLRS launchers, it is difficult to silicate against the background of other targets (objects). They quickly fired back and hid.
It is necessary to crush the enemy's air defense, which will increase the effectiveness of the air force. It is necessary to proceed from the available technical capabilities and possible tactics of application and a phased plan of action. It is necessary to destroy the enemy radar to the maximum, to blind the air defense. Of course, this is not all, there are complexes operating in the optical range, but these are the lesser of evils. It is necessary to force the enemy to transfer the antennas of the air defense systems to the standby state, it is not necessary to turn on the radiation. We create the threat of a complex raid or a raid by UAVs and KR. At this moment, an aircraft with a locator (Tu-214 and A-50 can be used) is in the air 150 km from the front line outside the air defense. Antennas of air defense systems will give a stunning reflected signal, then it's a matter of processing speed and a communication channel with strike assets. The enemy will naturally figure it out, but then he will be forced to hide the complexes (which is also good) or suffer losses. Impact UAVs aimed at a source of electromagnetic radiation will also not interfere. Something like this, you need to create continuous radar tracking of the enemy. For this, only the will is needed, technically everything is realizable.

[steelmaker]

Here and on the Reporter, a lot of good suggestions are made. And you know how the Zaputins answer - "The giraffe is big, he knows better", "and if he is so smart, why not in the trenches." Therefore, everything is possible! The main thing is political will. And you know what I noticed? Those who at least once said about this political will, they are no longer on any talk shows. And no one else stutters about this "will". Everyone says that everything is chiki-farts.

[Alexandre]

Why not order satellites similar to Starlink satellites in China?

[Vasya Vasiliev_3]

Before the war, China asked Putin to make an anti-missile system for China. The entire space program of China and India is made by Russian hands. China and India now have a lot of satellites in orbit that could help us with information on Ukraine, and to whom we just didn’t help, even launched some kind of Congo satellite. If we could rent the information of Indian and Chinese satellites in UKRAINE, then there was no need to launch satellites, these satellites were enough

[Rome]

The air command post is useful in principle.
But the described tactics are not clear, if Orion has to detect the target and launch the Lancet, then why fence the garden? You can just send the Pacer to hunt, he will detect and hit the target with an ATGM himself, fewer people are needed to complete the task
Orion can simply be used as a "bomber" for borading in the area and the operational use of the Lancet, and as an option, it is also possible to increase the range of the Lancet, but the targets are looking for other Orions, or someone else in principle (special forces, satellite, Su57).
In principle, the idea is probably working, and only the concept needs to be thought out exactly

[abc_alex]

Quote: Eroma

if Orion should locate the target and launch the Lancet

Here you have a system error. Orion can't detect anything on its own. Only an operator who receives an online image from Orion's cameras can detect it. And even more so to recognize. And then it gets even weirder. For some reason, the authors of such schemes forget that each The lancet is a separate communication channel to the human operator in the rear. That is, the system must support at least two broadband channels. After all, Orion itself must also be controlled all the time.

[Rome]

It is clear that operators control everything and it is they who are looking for targets with on-board cameras. What is the actual problem of organizing additional communication channels from Orion? Did you hang up the container with the necessary equipment and go into battle, or not?

[Ezekiel 25-17]

Quote from: bravo77

Quote: Ezekiel 25-17

Many knowledge, many sorrows... For you personally: several firms are organized for a short time, registered, say, in countries where customs does not ask unnecessary questions and drives goods from one to another; each transit increases the complexity of detection by an order of magnitude. So, I don't see any problem.

but I see

simply giving instructions to the supplier under the threat of huge fines
sell products to companies, for example, with a 5-year registration with confirmed commercial activity in these years
and all the smart-ass go through the forest.

Ukraine will go through the forest: and the sale in this case is carried out by intermediary firms; it is very difficult to track it. What is there to talk about, if in the 90s Russia bought a super computer in the USA for simulating nuclear explosions, naturally prohibited for sale. So respected by the forest.

[Alekandr]

The most realistic option is to detect the launch of Hymers missiles using radar, and instantly hit the calculated launch area with Tornado - C or OPEN Point U cluster shells.

[Vasya Vasiliev_3]

Everything is there, but our bosses are afraid, they are afraid that the United States will kill them like Prigozhin

[Conjurer]

The idea of ​​a UAV being the carrier of small UAVs...

.
Yes, immediately after the revolution in Russia there were many such experiments. What they didn’t put on the plane to convey and release there - tanks, planes, gliders .... After a while, they let go. Now, again, an attack - hang another on one UAV. And for what? To record, video, how small will hit the target.
You brought the ammunition almost to the target, it remains to release it and hit the target. No, you attach a video camera and a transmitter to it to record how it kicks, and you also plant the operator so that he leads him to the target, and attach a repeater to a large UAV so that the operator can have fun with it from a distance.
And this game is definitely worth all these candles? Isn’t it easier to destroy the target with homing missiles from a large UAV, and then shoot the result of the hit with a reconnaissance drone, if documentary evidence is really needed? Why spend money on this whole garden?

[AlOrg]

The goal is to penetrate the enemy tactical depth of 100 km in order to fight the Khimars and long-range artillery of the Ukrainians. Orion will be able to operate 50 km from the front line deep into enemy territory, plus lancets launched from Orion will overcome another 50 km. Thus, they will be able to knock out Ukrainian equipment within 100 km from the front line. Now lancets can hit a maximum depth of 50 km

[chingachguc]

The author wrote a lot of letters, but how is he going to provide target designation? Six Lancets on board - they also need to find six targets in one sortie. And in general, why Lancets, if you can take the CAB on board? They do the same thing, only cheaper.

[AlOrg]

Lancets choose their own targets. It is enough to launch them into the area where enemy equipment is located

[AlOrg]

A very sound idea. 4 lancets are hung under the orion's wings. You can hang a new product 53 with folding wings. Orion with radar for a long time barrages along the front line and tracks down the accumulation of enemy equipment. When finding a cluster of vehicles, it launches lancets at them. All that is needed now is to pair the optoelectronic system of Orion with the lancets. By the way, instead of lancets under the wings of Orion, you can hang two products 305

[Krilion]

it’s good that something is being done at all.. although for me, to put it mildly, it’s surprising HOW our Defense Ministry could sit on its butt for so many years and not deal with the issues of UAVs and ammunition for them, while the same Americans for many years clearly demonstrated the advantages of using such types of weapons, causing a nightmare to the people both in Iraq and Afghanistan... how could one calmly look at the presence of STRATEGIC drones in the enemy’s possession and not draw any conclusions... now the collective farms are feverishly collecting lancets for Orion, while the corresponding types should have been developed long ago ammunition for drones.. it’s a shame for the country...

[the same doctor]

Stop demonstrating and scaring. Nobody is scared anymore. Start fighting!
.
As for the new version of the lancet, the mountain gave birth to a mouse. The control electronics are almost the same for a missile with 3 kg of explosives and with three tons.
Give money to the developers, provide a clear order and protection from colonels from the Ministry of Defense. In a month you will have the entire range of UAV calibers...

[wladimirjankov]

It’s some kind of Manilovism to launch lancets from Orions for reconnaissance and search for targets. Lancets are used when the target has already been detected or its coordinates are known. Launching a lancet from Orion at a target that has not yet been discovered is simply stupid and unproductive. And sending Orion with a whole package of lancets to the far or near rear of the enemy, with his air defense not suppressed, is a big risk of losing not only the carrier of the lancets, but also them themselves. The scheme and tactics for using lancets have already been worked out and there is no need to come up with options that are not feasible. Orion also has its purpose. This is reconnaissance and destruction of detected targets using the weapons on board. This is the weapon that needs to be improved or new models created for it. Using small unguided bombs or Kornet ATGMs is clearly not enough for such a UAV. It needs new small-sized missiles, gliding and adjustable bombs, a radar capable of detecting targets at 15-30 km, and a good optical-electronic station. Orion must quickly detect targets and hit them without any delay.