Heavy self-propelled ATGMs: the end of history

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Heavy self-propelled ATGMs: the end of history
"Chrysanthemum-S"

The Time of the Universal Soldiers


In the segment of land vehicles, the main heroes of the special operation were universal vehicles, for example, the BMP-3. Tanks, which have been buried since the end of the last century, have also not lost their leading positions, although they have seriously changed their profile of work. Workhorses are also highly valued, capable of taking on a wide range of combat loads and performing an equally wide range of tasks. Such heroes, of course, include MT-LB and the older sister of MT-LBu.

At the same time, highly specialized military equipment finds limited use in the realities of a special operation. These include airborne equipment of the Airborne Forces, traditionally distinguished by high firepower and high mobility, but insufficient armor.



A lot has already been said about the overdue revision of the tactics of using airborne troops and, accordingly, the deep modernization of military equipment. This time we will focus on rather inconspicuous vehicles, which, nevertheless, were talked about a lot before the special military operation.

We are talking about self-propelled anti-tank systems, primarily on tracks.

The technique is predominantly defensive, and therefore could not show itself to the fullest during last year's spring offensive of the Russian army. It would seem that the modern attempts of the Armed Forces of Ukraine should have become a high point for the Russian Shturm-S and Khrizantema-S. But the main killers of NATO equipment in the steppes of Zaporozhye turned out to be helicopters, anti-tank mines and Lancets. As the President of Russia mentioned, they were accompanied by ideal Kornets.

There is a strong impression that there is simply no place for heavy self-propelled anti-tank systems in a special operation.


Mobile ATGM carriers are good for everyone, but when there are no enemy tanks, they find work at the front with great difficulty

The caterpillar carrier of anti-tank missiles is largely a domestic know-how.

With a certain conventionality, "Chrysanthemum" and "Storm" can be called the successors of not the most successful missile tank IT-1. In the days of Nikita Khrushchev, missiles of all classes were held in high esteem, and ATGMs did not escape this fate - a whole T-62 was sent for installation. It turned out to be expensive and very inefficient - IT-1 was removed from service six years after its adoption.

At present, the Russian Army has an impressive arsenal of self-propelled weapons designed primarily to destroy enemy armored vehicles. The heaviest of them is the Khrizantema-S, armed with a 54-kilogram 9M123 rocket capable of penetrating up to 1,25 meters of armor. On paper, the technology should inspire fear and awe in NATO technology. And she really inspires. Only in the special operation is there little evidence of the effective operation of tank destroyers.

"Chrysanthemum-S" does not hunt alone - the battery includes a combat vehicle of the platoon commander and the battery itself. Needless to say, a group of vehicles sharply sharpened to fight tanks requires additional air defense cover and protection from saboteurs?

"Chrysanthemums" are also expensive products: the BMP-3 chassis is one of the most high-tech in the class of light armored vehicles. By the way, the Troika base is used for the Kornet-T self-propelled missile system. The maximum range of work on targets for two ATGMs is 5,5-6 km, but this is a very conditional figure.

Even on the plains of the Kherson and Zaporozhye regions, it is very difficult to find such straight lines, which makes the crews of tracked anti-tank systems approach the tanks at critically close distances. This automatically increases the likelihood of detection by intelligence and destruction. And the enemy, unfortunately, can hit the equipment quite easily. If, of course, it will.

With the younger brother "Shturm-S" on the MT-LB platform, the situation is similar. With the exception of the used Ataka missile, which is paired with aviation ATGM "Whirlwind" gets the enemy at ranges up to 8 km. In fact, the only option for using self-propelled anti-tank missiles in defense is to work from a caponier on a hill.

End of the story?


Heavy tracked anti-tank systems turned out to be “limitedly fit” for a special operation for several reasons.

The competition from the army aviation is unprecedented - the Ka-52 killed more than a dozen tanks and infantry fighting vehicles over the summer. Helicopters with high mobility can be quickly deployed to places where the front is breached and operate outside the zone of return fire. As we have already found out above, neither Chrysanthemum-S nor Shturm-S are capable of this.


The future belongs to relatively inexpensive and resource wheeled ATGM carriers

The second factor is the increase in the release of the Lancet kamikaze, capable of hitting equipment at a distance of several tens of kilometers. Of course, it is impossible to compare the lethal force of the 9M123 rocket with a tandem warhead with 3-4 kilograms of explosives in the Lancet. But the kamikaze operator is free to choose the place of impact on the tank, aiming at the most vulnerable points, and the Chrysanthemum ingenuously strikes from a horizontal position.

Hitting the Lancet and its crew is much more difficult than tracking down the rather big BMP-3 profile, albeit without a turret, at the forefront. At close approaches, cheap by military standards, kamikaze quadrocopters with bolted RPG grenades are effective. For only $500-$1, an operator is able to destroy a multi-million dollar tank. At the same time, working outside the line of sight of the enemy.

Finally, the third factor that calls into question the concept of heavy tank hunters is the widespread use of ATGMs on mobile platforms. Now who just does not have their own anti-tank missile. The Terminator has four Attacks at once, the infantry fighting vehicle with the Berezhok module has four Kornets, the Titan combat vehicle is presented at the Army-2023 forum, in which the light spoke module is supplemented with a pair of Konkursov-M .




Almost all combat vehicles are equipped with anti-tank missiles, which somewhat devalues ​​the importance of heavy platforms

The BT-3F with Kornet-E missiles was demonstrated at the rank of a conceptual model - this is a 17-seat tracked armored personnel carrier that has the ability to destroy enemy tanks and fortifications. A bit of a controversial idea, but it will probably be further developed. For all the presented vehicles, ATGM is an additional means of combat, but they are much more versatile and, in which case, they can stand up for themselves. What can not be said about Chrysanthemum or Sturm.






In the first photo, "Kornet-D1" on the BMD-4M platform, in the lower one - BT-3F with anti-tank systems.

Wheel carriers of anti-tank systems favorably differ in lower cost, greater mobility and resource. This is primarily about the "Cornet-D" on the chassis of the "Tiger".

By the way, the idea of ​​light chassis for anti-tank missiles has not died in the West. The Americans, in particular, mount TOW on HMMWW and Stryker. It seems that this direction will become prevalent in the coming years, and complex and expensive tracked chassis will find a much more important job.

But the Russian military-industrial complex does not calm down - the Kornet-D2023 on the BMD-1M platform is demonstrated at the Army-4 forum. The latter, by the way, is more expensive in production than the BMP-3, primarily due to scarce alloys and complex suspension.

As soon as tanks stopped going on the attack in the manner of the Second World War, the need for expensive and high-tech hunters disappeared. Now the tank, in extreme cases, will not climb on the rampage, and if it climbs, then after a thorough reconnaissance. From which an ambush will not hide even from one "Chrysanthemum" and "Sturm".

It looks like it's time to reconsider the prospects for a family of highly specialized vehicles at the front.
102 comments
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  1. +9
    18 August 2023 03: 27
    It turned out to be expensive and very inefficient - IT-1 was removed from service six years after its adoption. Controversial assertion. Since then the rocket was too difficult to operate. And the military did not understand where such a tank should be organizationally attributed.
    1. +22
      18 August 2023 08: 38
      Even now they do not understand where to put the terminator! It’s easier not to strain yourself and leave everything as it is, and let the guys in the trenches piss themselves.
      1. -10
        18 August 2023 19: 17
        Letting tanks behind them will be no worse than terminators.
        Precisely as a support for tanks, and not an independent combat unit.
        Although, of course, one or two shots of ammunition is strange. I believe that there will be craftsmen in the troops to increase the number of "pipes"
        1. +15
          18 August 2023 19: 33
          What pipes? laughing
          Ammunition 15 missiles. And these missiles have 2 control channels: radio and laser. And various warheads: cumulative and thermobaric, and the greatest range and speed among ATGMs. And you can shoot at helicopters, and get into the embrasure of the bunker from 6 km away. Kashki-alligators with almost the same missiles hit well.
          A powerful weapon, cannot be compared with light ATGMs, only with a single-caliber Cornet.
          Of course, not everywhere there is visibility up to 5 - 6 km. Here it is necessary to choose a position, tactics, however. Therefore, since a powerful base is used, it is desirable to have an even more powerful missile with the possibility of homing. To shoot out of line of sight of the target. Type ed. 305.
          1. -18
            18 August 2023 20: 11
            Quote: Alekseev
            Ammunition 15 missiles

            How about reloading?
            Get out on the armor and change under enemy fire? Or drag the tube inside and reload when every second counts?
            Still, it’s better to have tubes ready for firing - point and shoot.
            1. +9
              18 August 2023 22: 37
              Quote: Shurik70
              Quote: Alekseev
              Ammunition 15 missiles

              How about reloading?
              Get out on the armor and change under enemy fire? Or drag the tube inside and reload when every second counts?
              Still, it’s better to have tubes ready for firing - point and shoot.

              Chrysanthemum-S mechanized laying of missiles - they are fed automatically without the participation of the crew. The crew only loads ammunition.
              hi
              1. +3
                19 August 2023 10: 05
                Here is a good video - you can see how the reloading takes place.
                "Just a few MINUTES and the Chrysanthemum is ready to fire" (C)
                Even just opening the hatch and pulling out a fully finished tube takes five seconds, and only then does the operator start aiming
        2. +8
          18 August 2023 21: 14
          Quote: Shurik70
          Letting tanks behind them will be no worse than terminators.

          Another opinion, another couch expert. The Terminator has two 30 mm cannons and two AGS, they thresh the infantry in such a way that my respect ... A platform based on a tank, not an infantry fighting vehicle with a corresponding difference in armor. And in the NWO, in contrast to what is in the article, the BMPTs showed themselves not very badly. But, dear dogs...
          1. -7
            20 August 2023 01: 15
            Quote: Letun
            Another opinion, another couch expert.

            I agree))) you have a noble sofa.
            Quote: Letun
            The Terminator has two 30 mm guns and two AGS, they thresh the infantry in such a way that my respect ..

            So far, all that they have notably threshed is trees into chips, but was there infantry there ...
            Quote: Letun
            And in the NWO, in contrast to what is in the article, the BMPTs showed themselves not very badly. But, dear dogs...

            It's so good that they were mentioned a couple of times in all the time and ... the mentions themselves looked like clumsy advertising from the manufacturer.
            And by the way, there was information, I don’t know how reliable, but given that our equipment is mostly “blind” due to “good” sights, it’s very likely that BMPTs also don’t see tank-dangerous targets and can’t hit them before firing by tanks. Hence their disappearance both from the media and from the front. Expensive, rich, but useless.
        3. 0
          19 August 2023 13: 53
          Quote: Shurik70
          Letting tanks behind them will be no worse than terminators.
          Precisely as a support for tanks, and not an independent combat unit.
          Although, of course, one or two shots of ammunition is strange. I believe that there will be craftsmen in the troops to increase the number of "pipes"

      2. 0
        19 August 2023 17: 07
        The "Terminator" somehow flashed a couple of times on the NWO and disappeared from the media feeds, as if it had never been there. Looks like it "didn't work". Why - should be understood and evaluated in the MO and GRAU. Either they were "ahead of their time", or this is another window dressing for parades like Almaty. And how they advertised it before! How did they promote ... And as a result - zilch?
        1. +3
          19 August 2023 18: 25
          Apparently, you are watching the news diagonally. The last episode was three weeks ago. Again, how many times 6 or 8 vehicles remaining in service will fall on such a long front line. Yes, and about "Did not enter" it is debatable, photos of the assembled chassis at UVZ surfaced.
    2. +2
      18 August 2023 19: 19
      "It turned out to be expensive and very inefficient - IT-1 was removed from service"
      inefficient? IT-1 was guaranteed to hit 11 tanks with 10 missiles. another thing is that the enemy tanks at that time were very primitive, and the dragon was very dear to them. that's why they took it down
    3. +2
      18 August 2023 19: 55
      Quote: Pavel57
      Since then the rocket was too difficult to operate. And the military did not understand where such a tank should be organizationally attributed

      Do you think they understand now? BMPT for how many years has not been able to determine whether to accept it into service or not, what is its purpose and what is its place in the battle order.
  2. +33
    18 August 2023 03: 35
    A battery of chrysanthemums should meet a full-blooded tank regiment, and not a "meat assault of 30 people on two BMP-1s." This is a means of strengthening almost the level of the army.
    1. +5
      18 August 2023 09: 55
      Quote: Sancho_SP
      A battery of chrysanthemums should meet a full-blooded tank regiment, and not a "meat assault of 30 people on two BMP-1s." This is a means of strengthening almost the level of the army.

      It remains to force the tank regiment to advance exactly where this battery is located. The main problem of Chrysanthemums is the low "range". Turntables can fly anywhere within half an hour, Lancets - a little longer. ATGMs on infantry fighting vehicles / infantry are already in place - what's the point in Chrysanthemum, which will take several hours to get to the breakthrough site?
      And secondly, Chrysanthemum is relevant only in defense, it is useless in attack, which means that most of the time it will just stand idle.
      Too highly specialized.
      1. +11
        18 August 2023 19: 25
        Learn the tactics of the anti-tank division in the offensive. At the beginning, mobile ATGMs are advanced to the place of a possible enemy counterattack, then artillery is pulled up. The beginning of the war was pros ... a "fashionable" hobby for the BTG concept, now divisions are hastily recreated, and when the war comes out of the trench-meat stage, "Chrysanthemums" and "Storms" will show themselves in all their glory.
      2. -5
        19 August 2023 17: 21
        They crossed MTLB with LNG, but as usual, it is purely within laboratory boundaries. In reality, anti-tank artillery (Rapier, etc.), as well as personal infantry equipment (RPGs, LNG and mines), remains relevant from anti-tank weapons, as before in the NWO. Of the novelties, of course, we note shock (disposable) drones, but their number is very small and does not yet play a significant role. In view of the lack of mass use of tanks in the NMD on both sides (a la the Prokhorov battle of the Second World War, etc.), I consider it inappropriate to speak unambiguously about some kind of "tank killer".
    2. +5
      18 August 2023 13: 06
      Exactly. Now there is a defense against an inferior army without air support, the massive use of demining equipment, etc. So it's hard to say unequivocally that a thing is not needed. The fact that in Syria the barmaley was bombed with cast iron also seemed normal. But in the presence of air defense, planning bombs were needed. So it all depends on the opponent. If a hundred Abrams go and in front of them are fifty engineering demining vehicles, and warthogs and f16s fly from above, then it is not known what will be needed. (Yadren bonba probably)
      1. -3
        19 August 2023 17: 37
        It seems that, alas, it is not necessary to wait for linear attacks of tank regiments in the style of the Great Patriotic War on the fields of the Northern Military District, while we are observing single (maximum tank platoon) attacks, and therefore it makes no sense to use highly specialized anti-tank weapons, especially those available to MORF in single " exhibition" copies. Let them continue to sell for export :) I will leave the effectiveness of destroying enemy tanks by helicopters outside the scope, because what leaks into the media is either not identifiable either by place and date, or as a target, and sometimes over time it turns out not to be a tank at all, but a combine. In fact, most of the CONFIRMED defeats of enemy armored vehicles fall exclusively on artillery, less on infantry ATGMs, RPGs, LNGs, and finally mines. Such is the war.
  3. +3
    18 August 2023 03: 40
    Taking into account the fact that ATGMs have now stepped forward noticeably and, given their advantage in cost, it is not surprising that armored vehicles equipped with lower missiles are fading into the background. In addition, it is much more difficult to destroy an ATGM operator than to hit an infantry fighting vehicle.
    1. -5
      18 August 2023 05: 01
      In addition, it is much more difficult to destroy an ATGM operator than to hit an infantry fighting vehicle.

      Debatable. For the operator, a bullet from a light small arms is enough, an infantry fighting vehicle is poorly protected from this.
      Raging behind universal heavily armored vehicles based on tanks. For example - Terminator (UVZ). Everything else is from the evil one.
      1. +3
        18 August 2023 05: 04
        Now is the time for drones, for them BMPs are an easy target.
  4. +16
    18 August 2023 03: 47
    Eugene, heaps of everything are shown at exhibitions, but what is really there from what is shown in the army? And what will it do and when? And with regard to Chrysanthemum, the problem here is that they are trying to "alone" and not to use it as part of units. So your statements are at least controversial.
  5. +13
    18 August 2023 05: 01
    Hm. Alright bullshit. Chrysanthemums and Shturms can be converted instead of ATGM carriers (line-of-sight shooting) into Lancet / Hermes carriers (over-the-horizon shooting)
    1. +10
      18 August 2023 07: 40
      That's it! It is not the concept or platform that is outdated, the rocket is outdated, the self-propelled ATGM should become the carrier of missiles with over-the-horizon launch and homing, such as Hermes! Who should carry these missiles?
      There is an evolution in the development of self-propelled anti-tank artillery: tank destroyers have turned into self-propelled heavy anti-tank systems, it's time to turn into a self-propelled carrier of long-range high-precision missiles.
      The lancet is doing well now, but what if the electronic warfare is more serious? But the rocket has homing and other speeds!
      1. +3
        18 August 2023 19: 24
        "Who should carry these missiles?"
        yes, at least an UAZ, if these are over-the-horizon launch missiles
      2. +3
        19 August 2023 10: 40
        Quote: Eroma
        The lancet is doing well now, but what if the electronic warfare is more serious? But the rocket has homing and other speeds!

        Back in the VOKU in the early 80s, in the ZVO magazine, I read an article about the development by the bourgeoisie of an anti-tank complex with a remote-controlled ATGM, which was fired by a mortar method and controlled through an optical fiber. The base was the M-113. Perhaps we will return to old, albeit alien, projects, but on a new technological basis. Add a reconnaissance drone to such a system, and you get a completely promising system of short-range (up to 8-10 km) range with the ability to work from behind cover or terrain folds. As an option.
        1. -1
          25 August 2023 13: 10
          Optical fiber? Telecontrol? Forgive me, even now it is possible to build a simple neuron into the control unit, which, according to the images fed to it in advance, will identify enemy equipment, there would be primary intelligence
    2. -1
      18 August 2023 10: 41
      If you have over-the-horizon shooting, then this craft should refer to artillery. Accordingly, she needs artillery observers and a reconnaissance complex.
      Well, if the carrier of the Lancets, then in principle he does not need a caterpillar chassis.
      1. +3
        18 August 2023 12: 35
        To artillery, so to artillery, once machine guns belonged to artillery hi
        The main thing is to be used effectively, today, judging by the article, these anti-tank systems cannot work fully due to vulnerability, although they actually have enough targets: guards, hit during rotation, with land mines on clusters, but direct fire and dimensions do not allow to go out to the line of fire. And so from the forest, yes, according to the data of the ktpter or special forces, or fighters from the front line, a nice thing
        1. -1
          18 August 2023 15: 04
          The fact is that self-propelled anti-tank systems are direct fire weapons. Mostly anti-tank. And what you describe is excellent and cannon artillery does, especially if it is armed with Krasnopol or Excalibur.
        2. 0
          18 August 2023 19: 29
          "Today, judging by the article, these anti-tank systems cannot work fully due to vulnerability, although they actually have enough targets: guards, hit during rotation, with land mines on clusters,"
          these anti-tank systems cannot fully work due to the lack of targets. oporniki, and clusters (did I say that right?), this is a target for artillery, not for an anti-tank missile
  6. +20
    18 August 2023 05: 13
    The problem is not in the tracked ATGMs themselves, but in the lack of developed tactics for using them. Especially in conjunction with the UAV. We should not forget about the mobility of the installation and some kind of crew protection, we can’t forget about the use by the enemy of cluster munitions that can mow down infantry with ATGM crews clean.
    The very presence of these heavy anti-tank systems will deter the enemy from the massive use of tanks. And it seems that the system can also work on helicopters.
    The development of the Chrysanthemum does not stand still, they can cross the Chrysanthemum with the Lancet, increase the range and install a homing system for shooting through heights and high-rise buildings, which will be super good. You can’t refuse anything in a war, you just need to think how best to apply This. soldier
  7. -3
    18 August 2023 05: 34
    It is necessary to make sniper complexes on a caterpillar chassis reinforced with anti-tank systems.
    Moreover, sniper systems with 12,7 and 30 mm guns, an aiming system (night vision device, thermal and optical). Drone jammers are also needed.

    And all this in one car.

    That's when the DRG will not be scary
    1. +2
      18 August 2023 09: 59
      A sniper complex the size of a Tank? This is something new.
  8. +26
    18 August 2023 05: 36
    Heavy ATGMs are the end of history - helicopters, tanks and infantry fighting vehicles, well done.
    Other articles on topvar:
    Tanks - the end of history
    BMP-end of history
    Armored vehicles - end of story.
    Helicopters are the end of the story.

    So far, judging by the articles, the modern Russian army needs only Lancets and bicycles to transport them.
    1. +12
      18 August 2023 06: 10
      no matter how it turned out later Bicycles - the end of the story...... what
      1. +11
        18 August 2023 08: 56
        This will not work, because bicycles are always being invented and will continue to be invented laughing
    2. 0
      18 August 2023 11: 09
      laughing laughing
      ................................... ............... ..
    3. +2
      18 August 2023 17: 41
      I'm still waiting for the infantry to be written - the end of the story. Infantry die more often than tankers! Only lancets remain
    4. 0
      19 August 2023 17: 45
      Add Shahid UAVs + cargo trucks for transportation/launch from containers. It's real while with bicycles strained.
  9. +16
    18 August 2023 06: 40
    From many authors: "The war in Ukraine showed ...." And what did it show? The lack of development of the concept of using the Armed Forces, the unpreparedness of the Armed Forces for new changes on the battlefield. Hence the completely false judgments. universal missiles, to teach how to launch barrage UAVs. As for the BMP base, why are you sure that the Tiger is more effective? Are there any statistics? .And why are all the authors of such statements sure that the next (for the future) wars will be just like that? Africa is on the horizon with no roads and weapons from all over the world.
    1. +3
      18 August 2023 11: 34
      And what will you do with this "Tiger" in the fall, and the Armed Forces of Ukraine, despite the thaw, will be able to continue their offensive attempts.

      Reasonable.
      And there is no need to reinvent the wheel, the same Germans calmly supplement Wiesels with TOU with a new MELLS missile (nee Israeli Spike).


      There is no Spike - then
      teach how to launch barrage UAVs
      .

      And, of course, not to make "an ultra-secure automated control system suitable for all occasions." Just a program for exchanging information "on any smartphone." Plus, finally, something to do with communication, so as not to cosplay a heroic tank that fought without communication with the infantry and which people with a copter could not contact.


      https://youtu.be/_Y84gSg5Zws
  10. +3
    18 August 2023 07: 06
    But to equip them with high-explosive fragmentation missiles - no?
    Therefore, they don’t attack the tanks in a crowd, because they’ll burn nafig, and if there won’t be them, they will attack.
    The machine just needs to be finalized, to make it more versatile.
    How many missiles does she have?
    1. +6
      18 August 2023 08: 07
      Both the assault and the chrysanthemum have a thermobar.
    2. +5
      18 August 2023 08: 13
      Quote: 75Sergey
      But to equip them with high-explosive fragmentation missiles - no?

      Ammunition ATGM "Chrysanthemum-S" consists of two types of ATGMs in the TPK: 9M123 with a supercaliber tandem-cumulative warhead and 9M123F missiles with a high-explosive (thermobaric) warhead.
      There are 15 tpk with rockets in the Chrysanthemum drum.
  11. +8
    18 August 2023 07: 59
    I also do not think that Chrysanthemum C is a useless product that has not revealed its talent. On this theater of operations, Chrysanthemum lost the palm to helicopters. Drones are controversial ammunition that does not guarantee 100% defeat of modern equipment. We have seen more than once that our modern tanks can withstand their hits without any problems. Not the most modern equipment of the enemy is supplied to Ukraine, and it is hit even with the help of conventional RPG shots. In cases of a major war (God forbid, of course), we will deal with the most modern modifications of NATO technology, and the 9M123 missile is guaranteed to hit EVERYTHING that moves. Do not forget about the Chrysanthemum radar, from which you can’t hide not behind smoke, not behind mist. I'll hurry, it's not her theater of operations here, I'm sure Chrysanthemum will show itself.
    1. -2
      18 August 2023 09: 57
      That's just the best NATO equipment covered with active protection, it also won't hit
  12. +5
    18 August 2023 07: 59
    Empty chatter, the Russian Federation is armed with only about a hundred CHRYSANTHEMA ATGMs, and I have not seen a single report about their participation in the NWO.
    1. -1
      19 August 2023 17: 55
      I apologize for the tautology, but as it turned out, Chrysanthemum did not show proper effectiveness against vehicles equipped with AZ, therefore some of them were sent to the border with NATO, north of Ukraine, where AZ is not to be hung on Leopards according to Feng Shui, and the rest on the Asian and eastern borders of Russia along the same reasons.
  13. +4
    18 August 2023 08: 05
    Well, there is little such technology, so there is little information.
    It is clear that the turntable is better ...
    As for whether chrysanthemums and assaults are ptury? Video with birds is enough ...
    I saw at least a video with the commander of the "Shturm", he told there how he fired 5 pieces of equipment at a time ...
    By the way, not only in terms of tanks, but also in terms of fortification with ATGMs, work out the norms ...
    As a means of anti-tank companies, it’s an excellent thing, in light units such as the airborne forces, which have little artillery, and tanks are very much needed ...
    1. 0
      18 August 2023 19: 47
      "About whether the chrysanthemums are chrysanthemums"
      and "pturyat", where is it?
      "to work out the norms for fortification with an ATGM too..."
      to find it first, this fortification
  14. +2
    18 August 2023 08: 11
    This technique was made for a "slightly" different war. A lightly armored "cheap" tank destroyer is needed when there are not enough tanks. Now there is another problem. Now there are not enough crews for armor. And the armor itself at the storage bases tyshi.
  15. +3
    18 August 2023 08: 49
    I agree with many commentators, they don’t keep much equipment at the forefront, because of the art and fvp, so the possibility of using it is rare ...
    In principle, few chrysanthemums have been released, assaults are used where possible ...
    I agree that such machines need 4 generation ATGMs, with remote control, and it would be nice to keep the range of supersonic missiles, that is, roughly speaking, a drum for 15 missiles, of which 3-5 are supersonic, in case of a direct collision and 10-12 LMUR analogues, maybe a little lighter . and on the expansion of striking elements.
  16. -1
    18 August 2023 08: 54
    Song of the Alligator m, and if good air defense is at the level of the front and the F-16 is on the tail. More bottles of gasoline.
  17. +2
    18 August 2023 09: 01
    At close approaches, cheap by military standards, kamikaze quadrocopters with bolted RPG grenades are effective. For only $500-$1, an operator is able to destroy a multi-million dollar tank.


    Such drones are too inert if they pick up speed. As a result, the correction in the process of the attack itself is ineffective and often the drone hits the target not quite where it should be.
  18. +15
    18 August 2023 09: 05
    "that there is simply no place for heavy self-propelled anti-tank systems in a special operation."
    The fact that our commanders are trained to fight according to the 1941 likals, and are not able to use modern weapons, has already been understood by everyone. The last example is with our tank Alyosha. If there was this equipment, at least one, then our tank would not have to risk its life. The range of destruction of anti-tank systems is 5-8 km. Before writing off unique equipment, you can first change the generals. And then one literate also said that they only made galoshes. And now they don’t disdain to get the T-55 tank from the storerooms.
    First, do something worthy and fully supply the army, and then you will write off!
  19. +3
    18 August 2023 09: 48
    Because the front line has been motionless for a year now, and self-propelled anti-tank systems are out of work.
    Plus problems with the command.
  20. +1
    18 August 2023 09: 53
    Based on the BMP 15 on the Armata platform, it would be just right. Booking is no worse than that of a tank.
  21. +12
    18 August 2023 09: 58
    I remember in an article dated May 30, Mr. Skomorokhov successfully buried attack helicopters, but they refused to be buried, and how can we burn them ... Maybe we will give self-propelled anti-tank systems a chance?
    1. -3
      19 August 2023 18: 02
      So far, the air defense and even the infantry of the Armed Forces of Ukraine regularly burn these "attack helicopters". Alas, there is nothing to be proud of - photos and videos of the downed Ka-52 and Mi-24 are regularly published. About the successful use of helicopters of the Russian Aerospace Forces against the adversary, something became very quiet after the embarrassment with the "defeat of the Leopards", which in fact turned out to be combines.
  22. 0
    18 August 2023 10: 33
    Contracts are signed, money is allocated, distributed and stuffed into pockets. So ...
    They will sting. The command economy, like the so-called. "market" has both advantages and disadvantages. But our "hybrid" crying collected all the shortcomings of both. And the dignity ... there just wasn’t enough space for them. "Did not fit into the market" ©
  23. +1
    18 August 2023 11: 02
    Quote: 75Sergey
    But to equip them with high-explosive fragmentation missiles - no?
    Therefore, they don’t attack the tanks in a crowd, because they’ll burn nafig, and if there won’t be them, they will attack.
    The machine just needs to be finalized, to make it more versatile.
    How many missiles does she have?

    The installation has different b / c missiles, including high-explosive and thermobaric b / h. sad
    https://vimpel-v.com/guns/art_comp_uv/848-hrizantema.html
  24. +5
    18 August 2023 11: 38
    It is not Chrysaniema as a carrier that is obsolete. The very concept of ATGM is outdated. Which is essentially a narrow specialist who, however, can do a lot of things.
    You need a "Guided Battlefield Missile".
    A modular system that will cover everything from Bassoon to Hermes.
    Line of engines. BC line. Head line. Collect what you need.
    Chrysanthemum as a carrier of a smart and long-range missile is magnificent.
    1. +2
      19 August 2023 12: 29
      Quote: garri-lin
      You need a "Guided Battlefield Missile".
      A modular system that will cover everything from Bassoon to Hermes.
      Line of engines. BC line. Head line. Collect what you need.


      Where? Where are you going to collect all this? In front-line workshops?
      And why not carefully study the performance characteristics of the 9M123 missile? She already has two warheads - tandem-cumulative and thermobaric. ATGM Attack has 9 modifications with different warheads and "heads".
  25. 0
    18 August 2023 12: 22
    It happens.
    And the concept of vehicles is outdated, and the concept of combined arms combat has changed.
    So everything is described accurately.
  26. -2
    18 August 2023 12: 40
    Bravo to the author. Bold and correct. Yes, the BMP 3 itself, instead of landing, throw a bunch of ATGMs through a 100mm barrel will work like these special vehicles in principle. Let them no longer suffer from nonsense, but make a heavy infantry fighting vehicle with a tower from BMP 3 only naturally upgraded. Not inhabited. So there will be an apparatus for everything except for swimming cases of war, so to speak. Those who can’t leave the BMP3 without swimming.
    1. +1
      18 August 2023 14: 14
      Quote: Observer2014
      Yes, the BMP 3 itself, instead of landing, throw a bunch of ATGMs through a 100mm barrel will work like these special vehicles in principle.

      Will not be. Because an ATGM with a body diameter limited to 100 mm will never have the same armor penetration or power (for HE warheads) as an ATGM with a body diameter of 130-152 mm. Physics won't allow it.
      Therefore, there is nothing to mess with the TOUR on the BMP. If you need a normal ATGM, you need to install an external launcher.
  27. 0
    18 August 2023 13: 35
    Disagree. It's just that this technique is not needed in this war, and even here, if intelligence is normal, it can be used for ambushes in tank-dangerous directions. The fact that they are not shouted about does not mean that they do not destroy the enemy. Here one wrote an article about the failure of the Terminator.
  28. +1
    18 August 2023 14: 07
    With a certain conventionality, "Chrysanthemum" and "Storm" can be called the successors of not the most successful missile tank IT-1.

    With a very big deal. Because the tracked SPTRKs based on MTLB were the successors of the SPTRKs based on "mess" with "babies", "phalanxes", "flutes" and "competitions", the first of which appeared at the very beginning of the 60s.
    IT-1 is a missile танк. And not the bushy SPTRK. smile

    In general, SPTRK was an attempt to ennoble the old OShS with new generation technology. It was necessary to rearm regular anti-tank batteries and divisions from anti-tank vehicles and tank destroyers with insufficient armor penetration to missiles.
    By the way, the idea of ​​light chassis for anti-tank missiles has not died in the West. The Americans, in particular, mount TOW on HMMWW and Stryker.

    M1134 Anti-Tank Guided Missile Vehicle 16,5 t - this light chassis? belay
    Yes, the same "Storm" is four tons lighter!
  29. 0
    18 August 2023 14: 12
    Yes, Chrysanthemum is not flawless. For example. The weight of the ammunition load of the installation is only 4%, while the self-propelled gun Gvozdika, which is 4 tons lighter, carries ammunition by 5,5%, and this is without taking into account propellant charges. And in terms of dimensions, it is much larger than the self-propelled guns and, theoretically, it is much more difficult to cover it at the forefront with a crew of two. Aluminum overall chassis from the BMP-3 with a voracious 500 hp engine. too luxurious for such a setting. I would stuff Chrysanthemum into MTLB. And yet, having an excellent missile, teach it to work on air targets using the IR seeker even from the Igla.
    1. +4
      19 August 2023 12: 24
      Quote: Scharnhorst
      I would stuff Chrysanthemum into MTLB.


      There was an assault on this chassis. Tried - refused. Not efficient.

      Quote: Scharnhorst
      Self-propelled gun Gvozdika, which is 4 tons lighter, carries ammunition by 5,5%, and this is without taking into account propellant charges

      We found something to compare :) Chrysanthemum has TWO reconnaissance-guidance systems. Optical television and radar. Gvozdika has nothing of the sort.

      Quote: Scharnhorst
      Aluminum overall chassis from the BMP-3 with a voracious 500 hp engine. too luxurious for such a setting.


      Once again: when developing the complex, smart guys tried different chassis. And chose according to objective indicators BMP-3 chassis.

      Quote: Scharnhorst
      And yet, having an excellent missile, teach it to work on air targets using the IR seeker even from the Igla.

      ??? For what? It is visually guided along the "frame". If an air target is in the affected area, what prevents a missile from being aimed at it?
  30. -1
    18 August 2023 15: 58
    The problem is not in the Chrysanthemum, but in the fact that there is no clear concept for the use of lancets. And the stock of missiles on board is mainly geared towards countering armored vehicles.
    As a result, it turns out that it is highly specialized, but even its specialization is not able to perform effectively due to an indistinct concept.
    What if you approach the project not as a "rocket tank" or, as they say less often, "anti-tank missile self-propelled guns".
    And to approach the questions from the position that this should be a secure and mobile missile launcher. What's the difference? And the fact that the machine in a new concept is only a carrier and control center for missiles for various purposes. What if we develop a unified series of transport and launch containers that are compatible with the new machine (you can put several dozen pieces into one machine). In this case, the containers themselves will contain:
    1.ATGM
    2. UAV reconnaissance and target designation
    3.UAV reconnaissance and signal relay
    4.Small cruise guided missiles with GPS guidance and target designation
    5. Double anti-tank systems, when in addition to the main missile, the container also contains a small missile to lure out dynamic protection, which starts a fraction of a second earlier than the main one.
    6. High-explosive fragmentation rockets
    7. Anti-aircraft missiles against aircraft and helicopters
    8. Lightweight anti-aircraft missiles against drones and UAVs
    9. Projectiles for remote mining
    10. Various engineering shells (for creating smoke screens or with lighting rockets)
    etc.
    The new vehicle itself will be equipped with all the necessary equipment to use all types of projectiles/missiles/drones. Depending on the theater of operations or role in the operation, the vehicle will be equipped with a different set of containers with different ratios of projectile types. So, for battles like those that are currently taking place on the territory of Ukraine, you can offer a set with a reduced number of anti-tank missiles and air defense missiles. But with an increased number of drones and high-explosive fragmentation missiles.

    The machine can be made in human or wheeled version. However, it must be well protected. Since in some versions (depending on the set of containers and the mission of the crew) it acts at the forefront, but immediately behind the tanks (because their security is still higher)
  31. The comment was deleted.
  32. +3
    18 August 2023 20: 03
    We need a target designator, let's say a drone that highlights the target, and the corresponding missile, which was fired from the maximum range, and it itself detects and destroys this highlighted target am
    1. 0
      19 August 2023 18: 05
      You have seen enough of fiction (read). Maybe by the year 2135 something similar will appear, if we live.
      1. 0
        20 August 2023 00: 58
        Quote: Boris Manzhela
        You have seen enough of fiction (read). Maybe by the year 2135 something similar will appear, if we live.


        The RF Armed Forces already have a UAV-based reconnaissance and target illumination complex. For the first time, he lit up, EMNIP, in 2019 - in Syria.
        This is the "Orlan-30" with an LDC, which provides the determination of the coordinates of the target and its illumination for guided artillery shells. There are few of these UAVs, but they are "in hardware".
        For ATGMs, the system may be similar.

        There is another option - optical guidance. The target is detected by the UAV or the ATGM is simply released into the area where the target is likely to be, after which the operator searches and captures with the help of the OES installed on the ATGM (with the possibility of recapturing the target if a more important object is detected). In general, it is somewhat similar to the Lancet, but with the ability to capture and automatically target the target. The Israeli diaspora on the site can even name such an ATGM. smile
        1. 0
          22 August 2023 10: 45
          By the way, how do you evaluate the concept of guidance through a rocket? Start from a closed position in the direction of the target with control through the UAV repeater. The launcher communicates with the repeater using a directional signal (the launcher does not see the enemy's RTR). The UAV is on its territory and it is difficult to suppress it because the power of the interference signal will be lower than the power of the useful signal.
          It’s also interesting, can there be an ATGM with a vertical launch device, like on ships, based on a wheeled chassis?
  33. -1
    18 August 2023 22: 32
    As practice has shown, the fight against UAVs and UAVs will be a more necessary task, in this regard, something like panzers is needed, but without radars, with the ability to receive tsu from different places, including reconnaissance aircraft, ground-based radars or even individual infantrymen. Missiles must be with AI. For the most part, the destruction of air and ground targets within a radius of up to 100 km should be easy and fast. In the future, the combat type will move towards faster short attacks. We need vehicles that will, on a par with UAVs, create a numerical advantage on the front, tanks and infantry fighting vehicles are too slow for this.
  34. +4
    19 August 2023 07: 53
    As soon as we realized that tracked anti-tank systems were of little use in the steppes of Ukraine, it means that we urgently need to get rid of them. There will be no more theaters and no more weather.
    Well, the white master must be licked!
    Striker-like is now our everything!
    They also fly through any mud, and through snow, and any water barrier.
    Blue screen experts.
  35. 0
    19 August 2023 12: 12
    The tubes must be inserted into the revolver-type drum, then the ammunition can be made up to 30 pieces. And the rate of fire will increase.
  36. +5
    19 August 2023 12: 12
    Obviously, the author began to criticize heavy tracked ATGMs without bothering to really figure out what it is.

    Firstly. These are NOT cutting edge machines. At all. Therefore the phrase
    track down at the forefront a rather big profile of the BMP-3, albeit without a tower.

    is simply meaningless. Chrysanthemums were never designed for direct combat with chest-to-chest tanks. Their main advantage is an all-weather detection system combining radar and OLS. This allows the Chrysanthemum to see the tank before being detected by itself. This is an ambush and firing machine from prepared positions. And they don't go alone. At least a platoon of three vehicles. Now, a platoon commander's car has been made for these three vehicles, and a battalion commander's vehicle has been made for the battery, in which the detection range is even higher.


    The chassis for the car was chosen for a reason. This is a unified base of the land army, passable and floating. And not just like that, one of the tasks of the complex is to eliminate tank breakthroughs, for this the vehicles must be as independent as possible, capable of long marches and overcoming water barriers. Therefore, all fantasies about wheeled chassis can be immediately sent to the furnace. These vehicles are for serious tasks and very difficult situations, a platoon of such ATGMs can stop the attack of a company of tanks. But they have no place in the infantry formations at the forefront, they were not created for that. But as support vehicles have shown themselves very well. In Chechnya, crews of prototypes fired thermobaric ammunition into the emrazures of pillboxes and windows of houses almost from the horizon.

    The maximum range of work on targets for two ATGMs is 5,5-6 km, but this is a very conditional figure.


    First, the maximum the range of the Chrysanthemum is up to 8 km. 6 -- range of confident managed rocket flight if the car is at sea level.
    Secondly, if the figure is conditional, why give it?
    Let me explain, the 9M123 rocket flies both 7 and 8 kilometers. But having flown away from the car by 5-6, it disappears over the horizon, the operator loses sight of the optical guidance system, and the radio horizon interrupts communication over the radio channel. But for a real battle, you don’t need either 6 or 10, much less 100 kilometers, as some people here sometimes dream of. The tank also sees nothing further than 5 kilometers. And if we are talking about NATO tanks, then even in some incomprehensible way he sees Chrysanthemum from 5 km, he will have to go at least a couple of kilometers more to reach the effective distance. Having received during this time from 2 to 4 ATGMs.
    According to rumors, the horizon problem is being solved by the control and communication machine. But these are just rumors.

    Helicopters with high mobility can be quickly transferred to the places of front breakthrough and work out of the return fire zone.


    NO. Can not. The range from which the Mi-28N operator can confidently identify the target does not exceed 7 km. And the search for the target is carried out at a shorter distance. The Ka-52 has the same, if not less. From this distance, army air defense systems, such as Thor, get it.

    Defeat the Lancet and his calculation much more difficult

    ??? Why all of a sudden? The lancet is a slow device, in theory, MANPADS with an OLS of the Gibka-S type can easily cope with it. But with supersonic to cope with a heavy ATGM missile is a task of a completely different level.

    By the way, the idea of ​​light chassis for anti-tank missiles has not died in the West. The Americans, in particular, mount TOW on HMMWW and Stryker.


    In my opinion, it's time to understand that the phrases "the Americans are mounting" something somewhere, no longer prove the thesis so much as discredit the author. The Statesmen have repeatedly proved that their military-industrial complex, in pursuit of profit, is implementing the most ridiculous and senseless projects, which the US Army then writes off as unnecessary, having barely adopted it. Moreover, it would be time to understand that the US army is an army of "wars with bearded men in slippers" waged with overwhelming technological superiority and air supremacy, with the guarantee of the impossibility of being hit on its territory. That is, categorically not suitable for a normal army.

    1. -1
      20 August 2023 02: 12
      Quote: abc_alex
      Moreover, it would be time to understand that the US army is an army of "wars with bearded men in slippers" waged with overwhelming technological superiority and air supremacy, with the guarantee of the impossibility of being hit on its territory. That is, categorically not suitable for a normal army.

      It would be high time to understand, but "this is given not only to everyone" ... We recall the US doctrine and who, according to it, is their main opponent, and ... suddenly it ... never "bearded in slippers." But it's too hard to add 2+2 as it turns out. And what does the bearded ones have to do with it, and despite how it was said in one film with the name in the form of a special operation))) - TRAIN ON CATS. Here's 4 for you.
      They are stupid, yes, they came up with their own Planning ABs))) and our "smart" ones have their own Hephaestus) And who turned out to be stupid in the end? Smart hephaestus turned out to be good only against bearded boys, and stupid planning bombs (which the United States worked out to the point of being on "cats))) suddenly sharply as quickly as possible and most importantly with silence in the press (but because they understand that they crap, but the network remembers everything) began apply in SVO.
      Quote: abc_alex
      The Statesmen have repeatedly proved that their military-industrial complex, in pursuit of profit, is implementing the most ridiculous and senseless projects, which the US Army then writes off as unnecessary, having barely adopted

      Well, we also have a dozen and a half samples, following the results of the Syrian company, sent for scrap, this is what Shoigu voiced at 21, and what is still unknown))
      Where did all the ground drones suddenly disappear, especially this miracle with Pturs and a 30mm cannon? Only the minesweeper remained.
      Where dragged a bunch of years on exhibitions Derivation?
      How do you like 22160, which cannot catch up with the barge?))
      Where is the IL-112B?
      Ansat - which cannot lift 4 people))) shakes like a fit and flies 2 times less than competitors?
      Where are a bunch of cars of the Boomerang, Kurganets family?
      Before you repeat like a parrot about cuts in the USA, look at what's going on in your country, I think this is more important)) And let them worry about the USA themselves.
      1. 0
        24 August 2023 02: 48
        Quote: JD1979
        We recall the doctrine of the United States and who, according to it, is their main opponent, and ... all of a sudden it ... never "bearded in slippers."

        For what year should the doctrine be remembered? It changes with every president. :)
        And before making out high-browed, they would have figured out first WHAT KIND OF TROOPS the United States has what task is entrusted with.
        Well, if you give me at least one example when the United States would have fought with its main doctrinal enemy, I admit that I was wrong. In the meantime, I repeat, no matter how it hurts you, but the US Army is an army of war with bearded men in slippers, that is, an army of war with a deliberately many times weaker, technologically backward enemy, inferior numerically and technically. ALL US wars over the past half century have been like this.

        Quote: JD1979
        And what's with the bearded ones?

        And "beards in slippers" is a general expression. I deciphered it above.

        Quote: JD1979
        They are stupid, yes, they came up with their own Planning ABs

        Not them, but the Germans. Between 1939 and 1940.

        Quote: JD1979
        and our "smart" their Hephaestus

        What do you have against increasing the accuracy of bombing?

        Quote: JD1979
        And who ended up being stupid?

        Those who do not understand the meaning of this phrase, which Zadornov laid in it, repeat it to the point and out of place. :)
        Both systems are used where needed.

        Quote: JD1979
        Clever Hephaestus turned out to be good only against bearded ones мальчиков

        Boys? :) :) :) Something you somehow went inappropriately :)

        Quote: JD1979
        suddenly, as quickly as possible and most importantly with silence in the press (but because they understand that they crap, and the network remembers everything) they began to use it in the NWO.


        And without bydlovity in writing, you can’t express thoughts? I don’t know what you thought up for yourself there, but, for example, UPAB-1500 is a 2005 development. KAB-500 has been demonstrated since 2003. They began to be used, as I understand it, after aviation had the opportunity to fly relatively freely over long distances over the territory of Ukraine. At the very beginning of the NMD, Ukraine had a huge arsenal of Soviet air defense systems of various ranges. Therefore, rocket strikes were mainly used.

        Quote: JD1979
        Where did all the ground drones suddenly disappear, especially this miracle with Pturs and a 30mm cannon?


        And they were adopted and mass-produced? Or were they still prototypes, which, following the results of their use in real combat, were sent for revision? :)

        Quote: JD1979
        Where dragged a bunch of years on exhibitions Derivation?

        "Bunch" is how much? It was shown for the first time in 2017. :)


        Quote: JD1979
        How do you like 22160, which cannot catch up with the barge?

        To me? No way. I would have pulled out my legs and inserted them into the ears of those who designed their propulsion system.

        Quote: JD1979
        Where is the IL-112B?

        Where?

        Quote: JD1979
        Ansat - which cannot lift 4 people))) shakes like a fit and flies 2 times less than competitors?

        And what does Ansat have to do with the Armed Forces?

        Quote: JD1979
        Where are a bunch of cars of the Boomerang, Kurganets family?

        Where?

        Quote: JD1979
        Before you repeat like a parrot about cuts in the USA, look at what's going on in your country, I think this is more important)) And let them worry about the USA themselves.

        I didn’t talk about cuts, don’t misinterpret me. And I think first of all about myself. Therefore, I repeat: the experience of the US military-industrial complex should not be repeated. With a budget of $700+ billion, the US can afford to spend money recklessly on the most ridiculous projects. Our military-industrial complex needs to think about the needs of our army and solve emerging problems based on the experience of our defense complex, and not copy what overseas businessmen from the defense industry get into their heads. They are sawing money there, but we need to think about defense.
  37. +2
    19 August 2023 12: 46
    this fate did not pass and ATGM - a whole T-62 was sent for installation. It turned out to be expensive and very inefficient - IT-1 was removed from service six years after its adoption.


    Lord ... Well, why write such garbage? The problem of the project "IT-1" object 150 ""was exactly what the TANK did. That is the front end machine. And not just a tank, but an IT tank - a tank destroyer. And for the front line then it was already required not just a powerful weapon, but a UNIVERSAL weapon. The developers were well aware of all the problems of their product. But Khrushchev powerfully promoted the project and the Nudelman Design Bureau used the theme to improve the design of the SD. And the next design bureau took into account the shortcomings of IT-1. They became the "Cobra" complex, which implements the launch of ATGMs through the barrel, usually the guns of the T-64 tank.
    Simply put, those who made the tank made the tank. IT-1 is a project of a completely different concept and this project was successfully implemented, all domestic tanks received guided missile weapons.

    And mobile heavy ATGMs are vehicles of a different class.
  38. +2
    19 August 2023 13: 08
    NWO, this is a war. A very strange war. Each type of weapon for its own war. For NWO, these are drones, mines, loitering ammunition and planning bombs. And decommissioned by the "civilized west" art.
  39. 0
    19 August 2023 17: 33
    Here in the magazine "Military Thought" of the Ministry of Defense it was written in black and white. What to use "Chrysanthemum", or rather its release, repair and maintenance are difficult due to the imposition of sanctions. Since there were a lot of Western components and there were difficulties with their import substitution.
    Personally, I saw videos with Chrysanthemums hitting Ukrainian armored vehicles in 2022. But I didn’t see them in 2023.
  40. 0
    19 August 2023 21: 14
    Berezhok with 4 pieces of Cornet, it completely replaces such a machine. The main issue is the unification of anti-tank systems. Vortex or Cornet
    1. -1
      20 August 2023 01: 03
      The main issue is price.
      Unification, homing, tactical range and barrage are for the rich.
      For Ros. The military-industrial complex is the only open way to do it cheaply.
      And that's the only way to win in the long run
      Chrysanthemum's rocket should become a consumable. Then the Chrysanthemum will bloom.
    2. 0
      16 October 2023 13: 46
      If the Ukrainians had all their equipment equipped with laser irradiation sensors with automatic jammers, then the Cornets would have sharply reduced their effectiveness.
  41. 0
    20 August 2023 01: 31
    C'mon, just don't write something like that in the field of aviation - "they will eat it with ..."))) There they are firmly convinced of the need for highly specialized machines))) only they cannot answer the same simple question: why do only station wagons work?) ))

    Well, the chrysanthemum and the like are simply outdated because of the old missiles that can only fly direct fire. I also asked more than once - how quickly can you find an open space more than 1 km? not to mention 5 or 10. Terrain, buildings, plantations along roads and just plantations. As a result, we either sit in some unique place and wait, what if the enemy decides to pass here, or we climb point-blank and most likely we burn beautifully.

    But, if someone were normally engaged in import substitution and not labeling nameplates and would do exactly 2 things, albeit complex ones - GOS and turbojet engines for a rocket weighing up to 100 kg, then now there would be rockets in the same dimensions on the same base, but with a range of up to 30-40 km and a trajectory a la Javelin. And this is a completely different song and a completely different area in terms of area, which such a machine can cover.
  42. -2
    21 August 2023 10: 20
    Rather, yes, the time for self-propelled anti-tank systems has come to an end. Drones have a significant advantage.
    1. +1
      21 August 2023 10: 41
      Drone is a type of ammunition. And under them they begin to make self-propelled launchers. Both China and Israel have them. And ATGMs are at the forefront of the attack. Drones attack until BT columns turn to Attack.
  43. -2
    21 August 2023 12: 28
    Golden quote - Generals are always preparing for the last war (c) has not been canceled. We were also preparing for the destruction of the Donbass following the results of Iraq, Iran and Syria. And it's like that. And where for police operations such as the execution of civilians, NATO equipment is above all praise, then alas, on the battlefield. The main result of the wars of the 20th century is the ability to remove peacetime generals from command in time. Especially from the rear command. Who could, he won. The Germans in WWII sculpted anti-tank guns on any ratchet, which achieved unprecedented mobility and efficiency in destroying armored vehicles. Well, what can you do, after 70 years, peacetime Russian generals didn’t come up with anything better than how to sculpt an anti-tank system on any ratchet, apparently expecting new Kursk arcs and prokhorovkas.
  44. -2
    22 August 2023 00: 14
    Thank you for the article. It's nice to read analytics without having to do it yourself.
  45. 0
    22 August 2023 12: 29
    You should not make hasty conclusions about the decommissioning of "Heavy self-propelled ATGMs" is not the end of the story, it's just the beginning. After all, everything new is well-forgotten old, time will tell, all the more it is necessary to take into account the nature of hostilities in the conditions of "NOR". soldier
  46. 0
    26 August 2023 22: 29
    An armored personnel carrier with a pair of anti-tank systems is unsuitable against infantry? Naturally. Dozens of missiles are needed against infantry, so that each ukrovoyak has a personal one on his head. Those. against infantry, a hail-type installation is needed, but with individual missile guidance, a range reduced to 5-10 km and increased to fifty kg or more of a warhead.
  47. 0
    27 August 2023 13: 49
    We have thousands of T-55s in our stores, you don’t even have to throw off the turret, threw off the gun, put the PKTM 2-23 turret on the commander’s hatch, and on the second AGS hatch on the turrets, on the sides two blocks from the S-7,62 helicopter, 54 pcs. Here's a real BMPT for a penny soldier
    Well, instead of S-8 blocks, you can put 2 by 2 pieces of Sturm, although I don’t see the point in them.
    Dynamic armor from all sides is a must!
    1. 0
      29 August 2023 12: 06
      Sometimes you read the comments and wonder. Remove a cannon capable of hitting further than any mortar from a combat unit and put it there instead of an AGS. Well, damn it, I would understand all this hodgepodge if it went to the tower with an additional boost, and not in return.
  48. 0
    27 August 2023 17: 34
    This equipment needs to be upgraded. Reconnaissance drones and a couple of the same "Lancets" in addition to missiles. Then you can not wait for the enemy tank to approach the ambush site and be within sight, but actively track down and hit it at the maximum distance. The Germans are already equipping their new "Leopards" with drones. .
  49. 0
    5 October 2023 11: 26
    Modern warfare is mobile and dynamic.
    How to cover the flank if it is cut off by a river and the bridge is destroyed? And it started to rain? Send the ATGM battery to MTLB and the issue will largely be closed. But the wheeled ones will sit in the dugout and smoke bamboo.
  50. 0
    16 October 2023 13: 42
    The success of helicopters as tank destroyers is due, not least of all, to the weak military air defense of the Ukrainians. If Ukrainians had dozens of Torahs, their view of the need for Chrysanthemums would be completely different.