Generation Z ships

53
Generation Z ships

Every generation chuckles
over their fathers
and admires great-grandfathers.

The depths of the sea are conquered by the fourth generation of nuclear submarines. But what is known about modern frigates and destroyers? What generation are they? X, Y or maybe Z?

Unlike submarines, the architecture and layout of surface ships are not subject to a strict set of restrictions. There are various options for placing systems and weapons. And the Navy of each country is guided by its own priorities.



The process of building ships takes many years, which contributes to an even greater variety of sub-series within one project.

And often representatives of one project combine technologies of different times.

In the world there is no clear division into generations among cruisers, destroyers and frigates. It makes sense to talk only about the belonging of the ship to a particular era, judging by the technological solutions in its design.

The first missile-armed ships were the descendants of heroes who fought in two world wars.


But structurally they had nothing in common with their ancestors. Their dimensions turned out to be so small that the traditional classification of the ship's composition has lost its meaning. Frigate, cruiser or destroyer - now the choice of designations depended only on the political course and ambitions.

Common sense forbade rocket ships from growing in size. Their weapon turned out to be compact. And the excessive concentration of weapons on one carrier raised doubts about the effectiveness of large structures overloaded with weapons.

Once, when laying the hull of a rocket ship, drawings of the hull of an artillery cruiser of the Second World War were used. It contained two nuclear reactors, 170 medium and long-range anti-aircraft missiles, a radar complex consisting of 16 antennas and ... a 40-meter wasteland formed in the middle part. In the absence of better ideas, they prepared to place Polaris ballistic missiles there. But the idea with the Polaris was soon recognized as redundant for a surface ship.

The hull belonged to a warrior from another reality. And the missile cruiser "Long Beach" dragged 40 meters of emptiness until the end of its days.


This and other examples were discussed in detail in the article "Scientific and technological revolution in the field of the Navy."

This time we turn to the changes in appearance. fleetpeaked in the late 1980s.

The Roaring Eighties. Detente Crisis in Superpower Relations. The SDI Program, Reagan's "600 Ship Fleet", Maritime Incidents in the Persian Gulf, and the Experience of the Falklands War.

Good enough reason to change the fleet? Alas, things were different.

The changes that will be discussed are rooted in the distant past. Since the middle of the last century, the directions for the growth of combat qualities have been determined, which are followed to this day.

Maximum combat stability - with a minimum number of antenna posts


The appearance of anti-aircraft missiles immediately revealed the weak link in the entire concept of shipborne air defense systems. Insufficient number of tracked and fired targets - with the threat of a massive use of air attack.

The first to answer the question was the Typhon air defense system - the embodiment of the unthinkable. An installation that implements the principles of an active phased antenna, created on the basis of radio tubes and an electronic base of the middle of the XNUMXth century. With dozens of independent radio channels for target illumination and anti-aircraft missile control.

It is not surprising that with such a design, the system turned out to be unviable.

Another alien from the future was the SCANFAR radar system. Despite the futuristic appearance, its fighting qualities, even in theory, were not too different from radars with movable parabolic antennas. Only by 1967 was it possible to combine the functions of detecting and tracking targets. The tasks of controlling the fired missiles were assigned to a group of radars of a different type.

Despite the conflicting results, SCANFAR was of particular interest because of the technical design - completely atypical for the 1950s-1960s. Eight fixed flat antennas (PAR) combined into a single system.

For obvious reasons, SCANFAR has not been widely adopted. The carriers of the experimental radar were the aircraft carrier Enterprise and the previously mentioned Long Beach.


What if you were born at the wrong time? Make this time yours!

The 1957 Zamwalt failed to hit any of the air targets in the presence of President Kennedy. After the incident, the already forgotten 5-inch artillery was urgently returned to the ship - so that the cruiser could at least shoot in the direction of the enemy.

The main thing that the creators of the miracle cruiser were right about was that they guessed the direction of development of naval weapons. How all ships will look after many decades.

The real result of the search was the Aegis system with a multifunctional radar. Four flat phased canvases 4 meters wide took over all the tasks of reviewing the airspace, tracking targets and, in part, controlling fired missiles. But here we are talking about the very end of the 1970s.

The Americans were told about the appearance of the Soviet analogue of Aegis by satellite images of the project 1143.4 aircraft-carrying cruiser Baku under construction.

It is no coincidence that this particular ship was presented in the illustration at the beginning of the article, together with the same type, but so unlike it, the Kiev TAVKR (lead 1143). With the placement of most of the weapons below deck and the presence of a multifunctional radar, the fourth TAVKR of the 1143 series received many signs of a ship of the XNUMXst century.

RLC "Mars-Passat" was supposed to provide detection, classification and tracking of up to 120 targets. We will not focus on the process of birth, the successes achieved and the shortcomings of this complex. The creators of the Mars Passat needed time. How long did it take to bring the SPY-1 radar system of the Aegis system into working condition? The answer is over 10 years.


Along with the advent of multifunctional radars, the principle of organizing combat information and control systems (CICS) has changed. Previously, air defense posts could only receive primary target designation from the ship's surveillance radars. And then they were forced to act independently, using the radar equipment given to them - radar tracking and target illumination.

The new generation CICS made it possible not only to select a priority target, but also to select the most effective weapon in the current situation from the ship's arsenal, prepare data for firing and assign a launcher.

And it was planned to launch missiles from under the deck, directly from the places of ammunition storage


The Mk.41 Vertical Launcher, which was put into service in 1985, became most famous. Eight UVP sections (64 launch cells) had approximately the same mass as the previous Mk.26 installation with two beam guides and a cellar for 64 missiles. UVP did not give noticeable advantages in terms of compactness or increase in ammunition.

In turn, the UVP created previously unthinkable threats. The rocket engine turned on below deck became a source of extreme vibrations, temperatures and created the problem of reactive gases removal. A vertical launch meant the “return” of the rocket to the deck in the event of a failure of the launch booster.


Rocket crash on the deck of the German frigate Sachsen in 2018

The advantages of the UVP were too great to pay attention to such incidents. In the design of the UVP, there was no need for mechanical movement of ammunition before launch. Compared to the beam launcher, the vertical launch installation had 10 times less power consumption and provided (in theory) a five times higher rate of missile launch.

The ability to flexibly change the composition of the ammunition load, as well as ease of use, predetermined the choice of UVP on all modern warships.

It was the line beyond which stood the fleet of a new era


The ship composition of the Western fleets can be clearly divided into what entered service before the end of the 1980s. And everything that was built later.

The first to receive a complete set of modern technologies, became the Bunker Hill missile cruiser. The fifth representative of the Ticonderoga series, which entered service in 1985.

The long service of such cruisers in the status of "first rank" is often presented as an excuse for extending the service of their peers in the Russian Navy. Unfortunately, the Ticonderoga argument doesn't work.

For 40 years of their service in the world, no ships have appeared that have fundamentally different capabilities. The solutions that are used in modern projects have been known since the Cold War.


A Ticonderoga-class cruiser in the wake of a Japanese destroyer (ships have 30 years of age difference)

Modern ships are only getting weaker. Displacement and combat qualities are sacrificed in the struggle to reduce their cost. The balance is shifted towards defensive qualities.

The presence of hundreds of universal UVP allows the Ticonderoga to use any modern means and ammunition. And this does not require any changes to the design. The radar outlived its time and still remains the leader among long-range shipborne radars. The functionality of radar facilities is continuously expanded by updating software versions.

Ships of more modern projects are favorably distinguished by the absence of radar for illumination of air targets with mechanical guidance. The active phased antennas of the main radar are now capable of "guiding" missiles, highlighting dozens of targets for them. And the most advanced missiles with active guidance heads do not require any help and support from the carrier ship at all. It is worth noting that the old cruisers, armed with such missiles, are again on the same level with the most modern frigates and destroyers.

But time does not stand still.

In the design of modern ships, there is a lesser degree of use of aluminum alloys. Modularity, adaptive design is applied. Instead of excessively powerful and voracious gas turbines, preference is given to power plants of a combined type. All these are the right decisions that reduce the cost of operation. But they do not affect the increase in real combat qualities too much.

Under such conditions, ships from the 1980s remain out of competition, retaining the status of the most powerful combat units - from birth until the moment they are withdrawn from the fleet. An unprecedented event in the world stories.

They fired a direct-fire laser - to set fire to a rubber boat


Over the past decades, not a single ship with a revolutionary design and capabilities has been laid down in the world. Observed trends in military shipbuilding indicate a crisis of ideas and a complete lack of technology needed to make such a breakthrough.

Lasers and railguns: in truth, at present, no one can explain what the need for such weapons is. In the presence of a wide range of high-precision missiles of any caliber and purpose. At best, the laser is an attempt to look into the distant future.

The loudest of the proposed "innovations" produce a rather comical effect.

The idea of ​​an arsenal ship, a carrier of hundreds of cruise missiles, which arose at the turn of the century, turned out to be meaningless in its essence. At the current cost of precision-guided munitions, it makes sense to spend money on building a full-fledged warship.

The super-destroyer "Zamvolt" was designed by the smartest people, and all their minds were directed to cutting the allocated budget.

Hence the failed return of naval artillery. Hit the enemy with blanks in any weather, not paying attention to air defense, with a minimum reaction time, covering the shore with fiery rain. The advantages of artillery are obvious, but at that time the cost of artillery shells for some reason exceeded the price tags of high-precision missiles.

Another "innovative" idea was to place the launch cells in a row, along the sides. Having equipped each UVP with kick-out panels in case of a fire or other emergency situation with a rocket.

The experience of many years of operation of more than 100 ships with UVP around the world indicates that there is no clear threat from the ammunition load requiring such security measures. All that the creators of Zamvolta achieved was a significant reduction in missile ammunition (by a third), compared with the cruisers of the 1980s.

The French made a breakthrough in the creation of the "new age" ship, hiding anchor windlasses and all deck equipment in the bow in the space below deck. This is how the “stealth frigate” of the Lafayette type appeared, due to the lack of any powerful weapon, capable of only indifferently observing the enemy.

The Danes built a hybrid destroyer and ferry ("Absalon").

Italian architects came up with a new formula for the hull, as if another ship had grown from under the bottom of the frigate! Frigate type PPA - high style. But the ancient Ticonderoga (120 UVP) will be quite surprised to learn that there are only 16 missile cells on a modern frigate, which is only slightly inferior in displacement to the old cruiser.

The Germans built 7 tons of void in an incredible way. Huge toothless frigate F000 "Baden-Württemberg".

The Future of the Royal Navy - The Type 26 Global Battleship is no different in armament from the ships of the last century. Its radio equipment should provide close control over the situation in the near zone (within a radius of 60 nautical miles). The defeat of air targets at long distances or interception in near-Earth orbit are clearly not included in the list of tasks of an ultra-modern ship. What the ships of the Cold War were able to do.


The most modern Chinese cruiser and Japanese destroyer from the early 2000s. Who is who - you will not immediately understand.

Our eastern neighbors - the Japanese, Chinese and Koreans for three decades "copy-pastilized" the ideas and solutions of the American destroyer "Burke" (project 1985). We must pay tribute to Japan - over the past three decades, several projects of "full-size" and "reduced" copies of high quality have appeared there at once, and each sub-series of Japanese destroyers is sharpened for a certain range of tasks.

The Chinese, on the contrary, hit gigantism, inflating the American destroyer to 10 tons. With a dubious result in terms of combat capabilities. In many respects, the latest ships of the Chinese Navy are inferior to ships from the 000s.

Generation Z ships


The long absence of breakthroughs in the field of military shipbuilding, oddly enough, played into the hands of the Russian Navy. Over the past couple of decades, the fleet has been replenished with pennants that combine the most successful solutions inherent in ships of the early XNUMXst century.


Multifunctional radar, UVP, CICS, which turns the ship into a living organism - all the ideas mentioned above were rethought and embodied in the appearance of modern corvettes and frigates.

So, over time, it became clear that the maximum unification of missile cells contains a problem - the dimensions of a standard cell do not allow the deployment of heavy missiles. On Russian ships (as well as on many Western ones), two types of UVP are now used at once - to accommodate strike and anti-aircraft weapons.

The architecture of the superstructure made it possible to implement the most optimal (among the currently known) layout of antenna posts.

The movement is provided by a combined type power plant - two full-speed gas turbines and a pair of economical diesel engines used in other modes. The high speed required for artillery battles is a thing of the past. Now the priorities are the duration of combat patrols, the extension of the life of mechanisms and the reduction of operating costs.

In the design, the influence of stealth technology is noticeable. Inclined surfaces of the sides, combined with the walls of the superstructure. The bow of the deck, hidden behind a huge bulwark. An artillery mount wrapped in a radio-absorbing casing.

At the same time, frigate 22350 turned out to be unexpectedly toothy and armed to the maximum - having a significant advantage over foreign peers.


Now are you ready to look into the near future?

Combat surface ships of the second half of the XXI century


The author considers three main directions possible.

The first and most likely is the improvement of existing designs with the introduction of artificial intelligence systems, which will automate all the tasks of collecting and processing tactical information. Solve issues of combat maneuvering, navigation, use of weapons and remote control of technical means.

Next should be an increase in the overhaul life of all ship mechanisms and systems. Ships and their crews (if any) will be relieved of the need to carry out repairs on the high seas. All maintenance will be carried out in the base - before and after the trip.

The third serious point that has not been paid attention in the past is the automation of the loading of ammunition, food, spare parts and consumables in preparation for the campaign. All - to increase the coefficient of operating voltage. The ship must spend maximum time on the high seas.

Armed with universal missiles (similar to Standard-6), which are capable of hitting surface and air targets. With detachable combat modules - dronescapable of accompanying the ship by air, on water and under water.

Many of the above are being built right now. Meet the new generation of Japanese frigates.


According to published data, the Mogami (30DX) project combines a composite hull, a “transparent” bridge with augmented reality technology and a mast with integrated antenna devices (a well-known global trend).

The level of automation allows the Mogami to manage with a crew of only 90 people - which is two to three times less than on other modern ships of a similar class and purpose.

The spiral movement characteristic of history allows a scenario with the revival of ideas from the recent (or very distant) past at a new technological level. The proof is the example of full electric propulsion, which is used in the projects of the latest European frigates and destroyers - following the example of turbo-electric power plants of battleships of the 1910s.

The last, purely hypothetical moment is connected with the hope for the emergence of technologies that are currently not even the slightest idea: capable of producing a genuine revolution in all areas of technology.

What will the fleet look like in half a century - in 2073?

Future will tell.

53 comments
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  1. 0
    10 August 2023 04: 41
    Thanks to the author for the article. Interestingly, the composite body of the "Japanese" provides a minimum level of protection against fragments and other things?
    1. +10
      10 August 2023 06: 30
      Does the composite body of the "Japanese" provide a minimum level of protection against fragments and other things?

      Minimum - if by this we mean the shocks of the waves, it provides. Not a single frigate has sunk yet

      Otherwise, like all ships of the last 70 years. hull plating is not designed to perform protective functions
      1. +1
        11 August 2023 03: 09
        The future belongs to the swarm under the control of AI and drone carriers, carriers of sea and air drones.
        Autonomous boat 9-12 meters with stealth coating and semi-submersible function, 30mm DUM and long-range ATGM, or torpedoes.
        A swarm of 10 such boats will break any destroyer. The ship has nothing to intercept Spike NLOS ATGMs. It is enough to sneak up on 30 km and take out radars, optical sensors and anti-aircraft artillery. Then, if desired, you can swim up to 1-2 km and stuff a blind carcass with a thousand 30-mm OFS. Or launch 2 × 10 torpedoes from 90 km. And a drone carrier can deploy a couple of hundred small autonomous drones from a distance of 200-300 km, which cannot be stopped by anything other than a laser (which still needs to be brought to mind), half (at least) in today's realities will fly and hit.
        There are hundreds of breakthrough ideas, and most of them are already in development and / or adopted in early (from planned) versions.
        Before declaring that there is no progress, it is worth at least following this very progress, and not publishing articles based on Wikipedia.
        1. 0
          11 August 2023 06: 12
          Quote: And Us Rat
          Autonomous boat 9-12 meters with stealth coating and semi-submersible function

          In the Black Sea, such (but smaller) are already being used to the fullest, but the trouble for them is that they are hit by ordinary heavy machine guns. And all cases of defeat by them are the result of sloppiness and disgusting service on ships. Optical surveillance systems, incl. with a thermal imaging channel and linking them with 30 mm anti-aircraft artillery. caliber, the issue will be resolved.
          Quote: And Us Rat
          30mm DUM and long-range ATGMs, or torpedoes.

          Are you seriously going to send THIS to a real warship?
          Firstly, the size is a fairly large boat, which will be detected both by location and by optical means.
          What to hit?
          Yes, by the same ATGMs, or in our case, LMURs of the "Product-305"\"Product-306" type. The only condition is that the control of the surface space will have to be taken under strict and constant control. This can be done with the help of UAVs, which you can have at least a couple of dozen on the ship, providing round-the-clock patrolling. And if such an UAV is suspended with small ATGMs (like that of the same "Orion"), then it will be able to destroy such boats immediately upon detection. But then the ship will need a normal catapult or helicopter-type UAV.
          Quote: And Us Rat
          It is enough to sneak up on 30 km and take out radars, optical sensors and anti-aircraft artillery.

          It looks futuristic, but let's do it. Crept up 30 km. and launched from behind the horizon a "cloud of arrows" \ ATGMs a \ la "Helfire".
          Quote: And Us Rat
          The ship has nothing to intercept Spike NLOS ATGMs.

          In principle, such missiles / ATGMs can be intercepted by the Pantsir-M air defense missile system, which has already been put into service. And on large ships of the "large frigate" / destroyer type, the same laser systems that are already being installed on the latest series of "Burkov" can be installed. They justified the task of such targets - drones, small anti-ship missiles, ATGMs, strike UAVs. The power, guidance accuracy and target detection by millimeter-wave radar and OLS have already been worked out / are being worked out. It is enough to have two posts with such a laser on the forecastle and stern / waist, and all-round air defense of a large ship from such targets will be provided.
          And of course - control of the surface situation, with the identification of targets in the WWI and surface targets. Flying radar and OLS - to help.
          Quote: And Us Rat
          Or launch 2 × 10 torpedoes from 90 km.

          From extreme distance?
          Group?
          And how will you try to ensure the surprise of such an attack? They will be heard on the floor of the Ocean, and they will swim to the target for 40 minutes, if not an hour.
          But you are now talking about a "war from under the silence" - "crept up, hit" ... and NEXT WHAT?
          What will happen to a country that has dealt such a blow if it is a ship of a nuclear power, and relations are already tense? Do you think someone will "hit unmanned boats in retaliation"? Or straight to the head?
          Such means and methods are good for sabotage, but not as an effective means of a real war. Although ... in war, all means are good, and this is one of them.
          Quote: And Us Rat
          Before declaring that there is no progress, it is worth at least following this very progress, and not publishing articles based on Wikipedia.

          In general, we are talking about surface ships of the main classes - their appearance, composition of weapons and development prospects.
          Until very recently, the United States and the NATO bloc did not have an enemy / combatant left on the planet to keep their Armed Forces, Navy and creative military thought in good shape. So they degraded slowly with relaxed rolls. That's what the article is about.
          And now we are witnessing a new round of military-political confrontation, and now the progress of means of defense and attack will definitely start galloping.
          1. +1
            11 August 2023 17: 03
            Quote: bayard
            In the Black Sea, such (but smaller in size) are already being used to the fullest.

            Plexiglas crafts on the remote control from the Papuans from the Armed Forces of Ukraine have nothing to do with promising robotic boats of the future from the world leaders in the military-industrial complex.

            Quote: bayard
            they are affected by conventional heavy machine guns

            Almost on board. That is, from a distance of even 5 km, planting an ATGM in the wheelhouse or a radar station, even from Ukrainian trash, will not hurt anything.

            Quote: bayard
            Are you seriously going to send THIS to a real warship?

            What's the problem? Religion forbids?
            That is, Maviks with grenades, burning tanks, do not bother you, but here is a break in the template?

            Quote: bayard
            and optical means will be detected

            For 30 km? Oh well. And why, then, are coming out to the junk to the board itself? Out of sports?

            Quote: bayard
            What to hit?
            Yes, by the same ATGMs, or in our case, LMURs of the "Product-305"\"Product-306" type. The only condition is that the control of the surface space will have to be taken under strict and constant control. This can be done with the help of UAVs, which you can have at least a couple of dozen on the ship, providing round-the-clock patrolling.

            This is what I am trying to convey in response to Kaptsov's fabrications about stagnation. Sea battle of the future, it's drone carriers against drone carriers. By the way, MANPADS and electronic warfare from boats can be used against air drones. Another turn in the shield and sword race.

            Quote: bayard
            In principle, such missiles / ATGMs can be intercepted by the Pantsir-M air defense system

            They can't, they're too small. We need qualitatively new air defense systems for such purposes, with more accurate radars and greater computing power. The video from Syria is very clear, in which the Pantsir twice fails to hit an approaching missile. Here, rather, KAZ is needed.


            Quote: bayard
            And on large ships like "big frigate"\destroyer can be installed\us the same laser systems

            Which are constantly ridiculed here, all and sundry. And they really will be needed.

            Quote: bayard
            It is enough to have two posts with such a laser on the forecastle and stern / waist

            And they are already being installed on Western and Chinese ships, but what about the Russian ones?

            Quote: bayard
            What will happen to a country that has dealt such a blow if it is a ship of a nuclear power, and relations are already tense?

            But nothing, I don’t see mushroom clouds over Kiev.

            Quote: bayard
            And how will you try to ensure the surprise of such an attack? They will be heard on the floor of the Ocean, and they will swim to the target for 40 minutes, if not an hour.

            Today there are very quiet torpedoes that can sneak up at low speed. And at least a day, if necessary to complete the task.

            Quote: bayard
            Such means and methods are good for sabotage, but not as an effective means of a real war.

            For the task of leaving the enemy without ships, they fit perfectly.

            Quote: bayard
            In general, we are talking about surface ships of the main classes - their appearance, composition of weapons and development prospects.

            The main class is a flexible and changeable concept. You don't have to think square.

            Quote: bayard
            Until very recently, the United States and the NATO bloc did not have an enemy / combatant left on the planet to keep their Armed Forces, Navy and creative military thought in good shape. So they degraded slowly with relaxed rolls.

            And they had to burn resources for the sake of .... what? Who needs it, if against weakened opponents and a weakened fleet is quite strong? What is the logic?
            Build super-dreadnoughts, which Kaptsov loves so much, in case of alien invasion?

            Quote: bayard
            now the progress of means of defense and attack will definitely start galloping

            Namely, he is already jumping, but Kaptsov keeps talking about stagnation, purely due to lack of awareness.
        2. 0
          11 August 2023 10: 47
          Quote: And Us Rat
          Or launch 2 × 10 torpedoes from 90 km.

          The torpedo will be as long as a boat. smile
          If we take DM2A4ER, then it has a mass of about 1,7-1,8 tons and a length of 8,5 m.
          1. +3
            11 August 2023 17: 23
            Quote: Alexey RA
            The torpedo will be as long as a boat.

            Yeah, it never happened, and here it is again. lol
    2. +8
      10 August 2023 06: 32
      Quote: Vladimir80
      Thanks to the author for the article. Interestingly, the composite body of the "Japanese" provides a minimum level of protection against fragments and other things?

      The composite hull of the frigate is most likely not polymeric materials, but ship steel with some materials used to coat it. In the March 2022 "Sea Herald" there was an article that mentioned the Mogami-class frigate, and ship steel. Named after the Japanese Mogami River, one of the fast-flowing rivers.
      "From the May showers
      Your fast stream blew up,
      Mogamigawa!"

      /Matsuo Basho/
      The frigate also has an advanced integrated information center (CIC) with an OYQ-1 combat information and control system compatible with the American Link 22. The command post is built with a circular layout according to the open bridge concept. It is equipped with 18 multi-functional displays, 2 tactical tables and ceiling screens that can project a XNUMX-degree view around the ship with augmented reality through sensor fusion technology.


      Six months ago there was an article:
      https://topwar.ru/206946-stroitelstvo-mnogocelevyh-fregatov-tipa-mogami-japonija.html
      1. +4
        10 August 2023 06: 51
        Composite frigate hull - most likely not polymer materials, but ship steel

        Such infa met
        …an integrated mast, a Carbon fiber reinforced plastic (CFRP) hull
        1. +2
          10 August 2023 09: 32
          Quote: Santa Fe
          Composite frigate hull - most likely not polymer materials, but ship steel

          Such infa met
          …an integrated mast, a Carbon fiber reinforced plastic (CFRP) hull

          what Maybe the topic is interesting, I remember in the early 2010s, one entrepreneur in the Far East got the idea to order and build a fishing schooner from the Icelandic manufacturing company Cleopatra, this company specializes in the production of watercraft whose hull is made of polymer reinforced materials.

          On March 11, 2022, one article (out of 4) was published for a special issue on the topic:
          "Boundaries of ships and offshore structures"
          https://www.mdpi.com/2077-1312/10/3/408

          Interestingly, a technical justification was given that the construction of the ship's hull (power sets are still steel) from composite materials with a fiber-reinforced polymer matrix (FRP) more than 100 meters long and with a displacement of over 500-700 tons. currently technically difficult.
          It is noteworthy that the article casually notes: "Russia is claiming the largest monolithic fiberglass hull for the 890-ton, 62-meter Alexandrite-class minesweeper built at the Sredne-Nevsky shipyard in St. Petersburg."
  2. +4
    10 August 2023 05: 32
    SAM "Typhon" - embodiment of the unthinkable. An installation that implements the principles of an active phased antenna, created on the basis of radio tubes and an electronic base of the middle of the XNUMXth century.

    Why "unthinkable"? Please. Active phased antenna on radio tubes for 20 channels. USSR, 1955.
    1. +6
      10 August 2023 06: 16
      Active phased antenna on radio tubes for 20 channels. USSR, 1955.

      Several radars were used as part of the S-25 complex

      Typhon went even further. One multifunctional radar for the entire ship
      Search and illumination
      100 channels

      Looks like a scene from a 1920s silent movie
      1. +3
        10 August 2023 07: 53
        The S-25 complex worked, but the Typhon did not. That's the whole difference.
  3. +1
    10 August 2023 07: 07
    There are no extra rooms on the ship. We simply do not know what the designer put into the design of the ship at the request of the customer. Maybe it provided additional buoyancy, maybe just as a cargo hold for supplying escort ships, or for an increased arsenal for their weapons.
    The composite hull can and does provide minimal protection, but we don't know if combat posts and a weapon and ship control center are booked in the ship, like a tank. soldier
  4. -6
    10 August 2023 09: 48
    Damn, well, who writes like that - "a warship"?))) if a ship, then it is a warship, you don't have to write - butter oil))) and the article is nothing, a listing of long-known facts.
    1. 0
      19 August 2023 11: 52
      Ship - any ship with a crew only from the military under the flag of the Navy.
      What makes it a vessel is the presence on board of civilians who are members of the crews and the flag of the auxiliary fleet.
      Therefore, there are, for example, such concepts as a "ship of the measuring complex" and the like NON-COMBATIVE SHIPS of the Navy.
      And it is quite possible to install weapons on a ship and it will remain a ship at the same time.
      Because see above.

      In general, it's time for you to amputate the brain. The one you have is not working. I gave you a minus.
  5. -1
    10 August 2023 10: 03
    The Japanese, like the Americans and Europeans, went down the line of reducing displacement, increasing automation, and thereby reducing the number of crew. And, if you look at the performance characteristics of the frigate, this is our frigate 22350. The only thing is that it has more advanced and advanced radio electronics, a smaller crew (22350-180 people). We are, as always, behind. But, We have better weapons.
  6. +6
    10 August 2023 10: 28
    Oleg, thanks, very interesting and, as always, readable hi
  7. 0
    10 August 2023 10: 48
    The advantages of artillery are obvious, but at that time the cost of artillery shells for some reason exceeded the price tags of high-precision missiles.

    Interestingly, the author really thinks that readers do not know why, after cutting the number of Zamvolts by fifteen times, the cost of LRLAP for them jumped thirty times - from the planned 35 kilodollars to a million? wink
    1. 0
      10 August 2023 11: 37
      planned 35 kilobucks

      For artillery shell

      This multiplies by zero all the advantages of ship art
      1. 0
        10 August 2023 17: 00
        Quote: Santa Fe
        For artillery shell

        For an active-reactive artillery projectile with a corrected trajectory (INS / SNS).

        A serial conventional projectile with a corrected trajectory (of the same caliber) costs from 68 to 112 kilobucks, depending on the year of manufacture.
        1. -1
          10 August 2023 19: 56
          A serial regular projectile with a corrected trajectory (of the same caliber) costs from 68 to 112 kilobucks

          Here is the answer. For some reason, destroyers needed special guns with special-special shells

          The caliber is the same, standard 155 mm, it is clear that the creators did not pursue the goal of increasing power. Then why is it all
          1. +2
            11 August 2023 10: 41
            Quote: Santa Fe
            Here is the answer. For some reason, destroyers needed special guns with special-special shells

            Even taking into account inflation, with a normal series of 29 Zamvolts, the cost of one LRLAP would be one and a half to two times more expensive than Excalibur.
            And with an ultra-small batch of 2000 units ...
            “Manual labor,” Roman said quickly. - Failsafe. Designs by Leo Ben Bezalel. Ben Bezalel collected and debugged it for three hundred years ...

            Quote: Santa Fe
            The caliber is the same, standard 155 mm, it is clear that the creators did not pursue the goal of increasing power. Then why is it all

            Range. The creators of "Zamvolt", unlike the creators of the LCS wink , apparently had no illusions about coastal defense in places of combat use of EM. And therefore, they immediately laid down a range of 140-190 km - in order to exclude all artillery and anti-ship missiles with a range of up to 100 km from coastal opponents.
            Well, then it started: for the range you need an active-rocket projectile, for accuracy at such a range - a correction from the INS / SNS, etc ...
            1. 0
              11 August 2023 12: 34
              And therefore, they immediately laid down a range of 140-190 km - in order to exclude all artillery and anti-ship missiles with a range of up to 100 km from coastal opponents.

              Arta on the ship for other conditions, it is useless for guns to compete in range with missiles

              Cannons have their own strengths when they can become an addition to missile weapons.
  8. +1
    10 August 2023 11: 17
    According to published data, the Mogami (30DX) project combines a composite hull

    Here the author, according to his habit, got carried away a little on the issue of the case material.

    1. +3
      11 August 2023 08: 19
      Oleg is not good at numbers and documents. he doesn't write for that. when I remember his epics about granites in Moscow, it still gives me goosebumps. but the fact is, it's better than Ryabova =)
  9. +2
    10 August 2023 13: 01
    If we talk about trends, and not only about the fleet, but, in general, in military operations, then they are the following - secrecy, a strike from the inaccessible zone and crewlessness. It is according to these trends that the ships are changing, who has enough imagination for how much.
    But, in general, when talking about ships, you need to remember their purpose, that is, the tasks they solve - blocking maritime traffic, protecting their supply lines, strikes at coastal infrastructure. So far, it is more profitable (in the sense, cheaper) to solve these tasks by ships, especially at a great distance from the coast, and whether this will be the case in the future, time will tell.
  10. 0
    10 August 2023 14: 08
    I do not know why the author is skeptical about the capabilities of Chinese warships and even believes that Chinese ships are inferior to ships of the 2010s. However, the United States is concerned about the growing number of Chinese ships, and the US Navy is proposing to expand its fleet. In the future, the US Navy will copy the concept of DDG (x) - 055, which is also a large destroyer with a displacement of 13 tons. Why is the United States afraid, and the authors doubt, that Chinese warships are useless? I think it must be American scammers who are expanding production and making money from the military-industrial complex in order to cheat people with taxes. Perhaps the American experts are really stupid. The author of the article simply defines Chinese ships as garbage, which can really turn the Chinese fleet into garbage. However, American experts had to fight China in the most stupid way. I think that without the invitation of the authors of the articles as employees and consultants, the fleet will be a big loss.
    1. -1
      10 August 2023 20: 18
      I don’t know why the author is skeptical about the capabilities of Chinese warships and even believes that Chinese ships are inferior to ships of the 2010s

      Explained in detail all the arguments, pros and cons.

      https://topwar.ru/193905-kitajskij-flot-v-borbe-za-zvanie-silnejshego.html

      In short:

      1. All ships are pale copies of Western designs
      2. The complete absence of a modern submarine fleet and naval aviation (this is simply shocking, after all, the rest of the Chinese are trying to do at least something)

      3. Zero allies with any noticeable naval forces

      Why is the US afraid

      If they are "afraid" now, when they have absolute superiority in forces and means, then they are paranoid. It all looks fake
      is also a large destroyer with a displacement of 13 tons.

      By the way, full displacement. Ships are compared by the value of the standard I/O, because it gives a more objective view of the design and capabilities. The Chinese are really bigger than the Americans, but that doesn't mean anything.

      Type 055 contains 0 fresh solutions, everything is the same as on Ticonderoga and Eurofrigates, only he took the worst from both. Radar is a piece of garbage

      Previous Chinese "destroyers" were even funnier:



      What kind of squalor, on a ship, supposedly from the 21st century ??
      1. 0
        11 August 2023 08: 12
        All this is just your subjective assumptions. First, the conclusion that Chinese ships are just garbage, and then they find various unreasonable reasons to prove it. It's exactly the same style of language as the western critics I've seen on Twitter that are just as discrediting Russian weapons.
        - -
        The first question is: why are Chinese ships considered copies of American ones? Copies are copies of specific technologies such as South Korean and Japanese destroyers that use the same radar systems. Do you think the United States will provide such a radar system to China? This is clearly impossible. Therefore, China can only develop its system. Therefore, the correct argument should be to study the idea of ​​developing American ships and use the technical means they have for technological breakthroughs.
        But no one in China can fully understand the real situation with radar developments, so they can discredit them with the most vicious comments. It also requires many evil western countries to maliciously assume that China's manufacturing capacity is low in order to restore the face they have lost due to low ship manufacturing capacity.
        Also, you didn't answer me why the United States is building DDG(X) again or expanding destroyer tonnage, just saying "It doesn't make any sense" to avoid it. Instead of turning the American stigma into paranoia, I feel like someone who knows what power is and knows how to prevent the next one who gets stronger.
        - -
        The second problem is that China does not have modern ships, submarines and naval aviation. This is also wrong. Although Chinese submarines are not at the forefront of the world and are second to last among the permanent members, this does not mean that the submarines are poorly equipped, but they are not the best.
        Secondly, China uses many types of naval aviation. Today it is strictly divided into three types: helicopters, fighters and special aircraft.
        In particular, fighters are divided into two types: fighters stationed on the reef of the South Island or at the coastal airfield, using J - 10A, J - 10AS, J - 11B and J - 11BS. These are fourth generation fighters. If you consider them not modern enough, many countries may not meet modern standards. They have an H at the end of the digit, which stands for navy, and they have also modified the radars and avionics associated with maritime operations. In addition, most of the J - 11B and a small part of the J - 10A have already begun to install AESA radars, the level of combat readiness of which has reached the fourth generation semi-fighter. However, due to continued military reform, coastal fighter units have begun to be transferred to the Air Force, but have not yet been transferred to the South Island Air Force. Including J - 15 (the largest number, more than 70 aircraft of the third generation), J - 15S (two-seat version), J - 15T (for catapult modification), J - 15B (AESA, fourth generation of a semi-updated version), as well as J - 15D ( special modification for electronic warfare, similar to the E / A - 18G, but the electronics come from the naval combat modification J - 16D of the Chinese Air Force). After the CV - 18 enters service, its production will be expanded to approximately 200 fourth-generation semi-fighters. In addition, serial production of the carrier-based version of the F - 35 FC - 31, a fifth-generation fighter, has begun.
        Let me mention special aircraft, that is, naval bombers, which were transferred to the bombers of the Air Force. ASW patrol aircraft will be retained and will continue to expand, retaining the original AWACS aircraft and large electronic warfare aircraft.
        1. 0
          13 August 2023 06: 53
          The first question is: why are Chinese ships considered copies of American ones?

          The answer is that the layout, architecture, location of combat posts are completely identical to the 6600-ton destroyer Burke (project 1985).

          If you are interested in whether there are other more “fresh” and effective solutions in this regard in the world, the answer is yes. See the British Type45 and European ships starting with the F124 Saxony.

          The Chinese did not invent anything, just repeating the 40-year-old Burke

          By the way, the solutions that were optimal (and often the only possible) for the 6600 ton destroyer of the 80_s are poorly suited for the "cruiser" Type 055 with a displacement of 10 tons. The Chinese copy-paste blindly, transferring all the shortcomings to their project.
          But no one in China can fully understand the real situation with radar developments.

          All that is reliably known allows us to draw conclusions about a significant lag in the development of electronic equipment. Details are in the link in the previous comment.
          Although Chinese submarines are not at the forefront of the world and are second to last among permanent members, this does not mean that submarines are poorly equipped,

          Mutually exclusive paragraphs

          They are noisy, poorly equipped, and for some unknown reason, China pays minimal attention to this direction.
          Also, you didn't tell me why the United States is producing DDG(X) again or expanding destroyer tonnage.

          The project of the new US destroyers is distinguished by a larger tonnage, because those DDG (X) have a different layout and composition of radar facilities than ships developed in the 80s.

          The Chinese, on the other hand, simply “increased” the destroyer of the past in size, which gave few noticeable advantages.
          Secondly, China uses many types of naval aviation.

          The PRC Navy lacks a key one - maritime patrol (anti-submarine) aviation (similar to P-8 Poseidon)

          In total, the fleet is deprived of two components at once - a modern submarine fleet and basic naval aviation

          With the rest of the components - a generation behind. What is the use of the same 50 "frigates" if in terms of armament they are weaker than European and Russian corvettes
          1. 0
            6 September 2023 23: 34
            English达垃圾的?说说你们的舰艇吧,潜艇?095号 096号你知道不?如果是国内允许的话,我都想把各种参数甩你脸上。
      2. 0
        11 August 2023 08: 23
        Quote: Santa Fe
        Radar is a piece of garbage
        etc. Do you have radar data? one hundred percent, no. which means we take into account that this "piece of garbage" works.

        Quote: Santa Fe
        What kind of squalor, on a ship, supposedly from the 21st century ??

        you look for the signs yourself, you set the parameters yourself, you criticize yourself. well done myself.

        give the characteristics, give the results of the shooting, again bring the cost. then call it garbage. Well, not an armored radar, now what?
  11. -1
    10 August 2023 14: 48
    Now the end of the XNUMXth century has come in the military Sor construction. When new concepts began to appear in the construction and use of ships of the fleet, but no one could generalize this in the form of a new ship. There were separate series of ships that were created with the implementation of some advanced solutions, but otherwise they were ships of the past. This flea market went on for several decades, until John "Jackie" Fisher, becoming the first sea lord, put forward a new concept that combined all the advanced solutions of that time in a completely new layout, and therefore built a new ship on it. And so the Dreadnought was born! And as soon as the Undaunted left the slipway, all other ships of all other fleets abruptly turned into useless floating trash.
    Now, there are also many ideas and concepts that appear in the fleet, but there is still no way to build a new system that would allow creating a concise and balanced ship with a qualitatively new increase in productivity and efficiency. after which all the ships currently under construction and in service will sharply become useless.
    Once it seemed that arsenal ships would become such a new "dreadnought". But the understanding came that this is only a scaling of the current ships, in which not only their advantages are scaled, but also their shortcomings.

    What we have at the moment:
    UVP allow you to carry many missiles of various classes on board (the main thing is that they fit into the UVP in size) and potentially provide a small gap between missile launches.
    Now there are universal AFAR panels that conduct both review, target designation, and guidance of all major systems.
    The hulls of modern ships are less radio-opaque than ships of past generations, due to the new shape and new materials.
    It becomes possible to fight in passive mode using only external sources of reconnaissance as sources of target designation (other ships of the formation, aircraft, UAVs and satellites).
    At the same time, the ships have a tendency of minuses that cannot be corrected in any way, namely:
    Missiles are expensive, which means that in the event of a naval war of more or less high intensity, they will quickly exhaust a supply of missiles that will be difficult to restore. And the replenishment of potential "arsenal ships" will generally turn into a logistics nightmare. At the same time, the means of replenishing ammunition are extremely ineffective at this point in time. Loading new ammunition is a very complex and lengthy process, which creates a noticeable time lag, using which you can attack an enemy ship almost without harm to yourself.
    Then comes the real talk of the town - modern ships are flimsy. The threat to modern ships is not even the anti-ship missile itself, but even the wreckage of the padded anti-ship missile. those. the near air defense system can shoot down the anti-ship missiles that went to the ship, and it will fall into the water. But those pieces of debris that recoil from the water and fly further will be able to damage the ship's hull, break through the bridge and can damage the ship's light but necessary antenna equipment. What can we say about a direct hit, even a light anti-ship missile. The layered missile defense and air defense system, of course, makes it possible to stop most of the missiles even before they fly close to the ship. But firstly, this is not a 100% chance, with a salvo attack, 1-2 missiles can reach the ship. And secondly, not every ship group can organize echeloned air defense, and certainly not every single ship. On some modern frigates and corvettes, from air defense systems, in general, only short-range systems are installed. And on some large frigates and destroyers - a couple of short-range defense systems and a long-range air defense system with a limited number of missiles and guidance channels.
    Because of this, modern small groups of ships (from 2-3 ships) remain quite vulnerable to enemy attacks. Why are there already ideas for the return of raiding, in order to "pluck" the enemy fleet by sinking his ships a little bit in small groups, gradually reducing the number of fleet ships until only large ships and a small number of escort ships remain in the fleet not enough to cover large ships. And in combination with the fact that the fleet must control large areas, it will have to disperse again into small groups, and not collect all the remnants of the fleet into one big fist. As a result, even such forces of the enemy fleet can be destroyed again by attacking disparate ship groups in turn.
    Considering the cost of modern ships, it will no longer be possible to build them quickly and a lot during WWI and WWII. And therefore, the loss of each ship for the fleet of a potential enemy will be an intractable problem. At the same time, the number of ships in the fleets of today's countries is still less than 70 years ago.
    From this, it seems to me that the conclusion is that the ship of the future is raider ships in a configuration close to some light cruisers or destroyers (something similar to our buzzard, but with much greater autonomy, seaworthiness, and detection tools). But with more advanced detection systems (a large set of the same UAVs for reconnaissance) and advanced artillery weapons. Such ships, in groups of 2-3 ships, will be dispersed throughout the world's oceans in the regions where enemy ships are most likely to be found (in areas adjacent to narrow straits, in areas not far from their naval bases, in areas not far from shipping channels) and which will with their own means of air detection (mainly UAVs) as well as on a tip from external intelligence sources (reconnaissance destroyers, for example), they will seek out separate groups of enemy warships and attack them, followed by a retreat with escape maneuvers and hiding from satellites.
    While the submarine fleet will perform 2 main tasks. The first is strategic deterrence (literally, what nuclear submarines with nuclear warheads are doing now, so there's a booze of explanations). And his second task is to conduct raiding for enemy convoys and warships. With a simple distribution - if an enemy cargo ship was found in the water area. We sink a cargo ship. If a single warship, sink the ship. And if you find a group of cargo ships with security, then the priority is BATTLE ships, not cargo ships. Again, why - because the loss of a modern ship is more expensive than the loss of a cargo ship, there is no longer a time when shipyards could churn out destroyers and frigates with tens and hundreds of ships in a few years.
    1. -1
      10 August 2023 18: 39
      A fleet without bases is doomed! A fleet built for a raiding strategy has always lost wars to fleets built to win in a "linear battle"! True, the raiders usually died by taking a lot of enemy transports to the bottom, but not warships! hi
      Therefore, the tasks of fleets counting on dominance in the oceans of the world are blocking the enemy fleet in its bases and destroying it along with the bases! soldier
      Perhaps hypersonic missiles will neutralize the power of aircraft carriers if effective means of space control appear in the likeness of non-deck-based AWACS aircraft.
      Submarine cruisers are no longer intended to sink transports, but to demolish bases and cities, imperceptibly reaching the line of attack, or to fight fleets with a battle fleet. And the unmanned kamikaze boats will sink the transports along the way, it is much cheaper and safer than an underwater cruiser! Unmanned transports and missile arsenals with long-range missiles escort battle fleets at a safe distance, while warships will mainly solve air defense and anti-missile and anti-submarine and anti-mine tasks, i.e. a warship will use weapons that require special equipment, a radar or sonar, and containers with smart missiles attacking via satellite will sail on all barges and schooners in automatic mode, such a fantasy awaits us fellow I think bully
  12. +1
    10 August 2023 20: 36
    Common sense forbade rocket ships from growing in size. Their weapons turned out to be compact.
    The states’ rocket weapons turned out to be compact, they didn’t have to sink aircraft carriers and battleships, they didn’t have to break through Aegis. And we had cyclopean rockets (Basalt, Vulcan, Granite) to match the tasks. Just look at 1144 or 1164.
    And the excessive concentration of weapons on one carrier raised doubts about the effectiveness of large structures overloaded with weapons.
    An excessive concentration of weapons could be discussed only at the arsenal ship, the rest - a clear under-armament.
    The appearance of anti-aircraft missiles immediately revealed the weak link in the entire concept of shipborne air defense systems. Insufficient number of tracked and fired targets - with the threat of a massive use of air attack.
    It was a problem with us, not with the states. We have carrier-based aircraft of almost a dozen aircraft carriers as our enemies, and the states have only our MPA, from which the main protection is the same carrier-based aircraft, and not air defense systems.
    And the most advanced missiles with active guidance heads do not require any help and support from the carrier ship at all.
    The fact that missiles with AGSN can be used without a guidance radar does not mean that this is worth doing.
    All that the creators of the Zamvolt achieved was a significant reduction in missile ammunition (by a third), compared to the cruisers of the 1980s.
    There is a new UVP, for large missiles.
    1. 0
      10 August 2023 22: 17
      The state’s rocket weapons turned out to be compact

      Everyone has

      Cruiser Grozny - originally a destroyer pr. 58, about 4000 tons standard military equipment

      Rocket weapons turned out to be so easy

      1144 - everything that was available was put on the ship, everything in a row, everything fit
      It was a problem with us, not with the states.

      So just like that, dozens of air defense cruisers were built
      Wh 9 nuclear

      The fact that missiles with AGSN can be used without a guidance radar

      "No radar" is an exaggeration
      SPY-1 corrects the flight of up to 18 missiles at the same time, like the radars of more modern ships

      It just cannot highlight the target, but
      In principle, this is not required by modern missiles with ARGSN

      The missile itself highlights its target and this removes from the agenda the main problem of the cruiser, which could not be solved in the 80s
      There is a new UVP, for large missiles.

      So the destroyer itself is twice as large
      And as a result, the ammunition load was greatly reduced, they played out in innovation
      1. 0
        10 August 2023 22: 37
        Quote: Santa Fe
        Cruiser Grozny - originally a destroyer pr. 58, about 4000 tons standard military equipment
        Didn't understand the argument.
        Quote: Santa Fe
        Rocket weapons turned out to be so easy
        Granite - 7 tons each rocket, very light.
        Quote: Santa Fe
        1144 - everything that was available was put on the ship, everything in a row, everything fit
        Well, you are far from all. They cut a lot of things, including the real armor (left only the local one, near the reactor and the main caliber).
        Quote: Santa Fe
        Wh 9 nuclear
        Take a look at your picture:
        -Cap, 3 Tu-22M squadrons are flying at us!
        -Prepare the rocket! Both!!
        Quote: Santa Fe
        Just like that, dozens of air defense cruisers were built
        These are not air defense cruisers, these are URO cruisers, just cruisers. Here is Worcester - this is an air defense cruiser.
        Quote: Santa Fe
        It just cannot highlight the target, but
        In principle, this is not required by modern missiles with ARGSN
        SAM is not required, but for those who let them in, it is highly desirable. Greatly expands the possibilities.
        1. +1
          10 August 2023 23: 16
          Didn't understand the argument.

          The 1950s missile cruiser is three times smaller than the 1940s artillery cruiser

          The states are the same. I had to invent clearly the leader of the URO destroyers, they did not dare to call the cruiser 5500 tons of Legi for a long time
          Granite - 7 tons each rocket, very light.

          For a ship, any rocket is a feather. This is not a 200 ton artillery turret (modest caliber, 152 mm)

          Therefore, 50 such missiles were placed on converted WWII missile cruisers - a seven-meter Talos 3,5 tons. And another hundred slightly lighter Terriers. And all the same, there was a cloud of space and load reserves

          Get your rocket ready! Both!!

          4
          With a 10 second reload rate

          This is generally a converted WWII artillery cruiser
          These are not air defense cruisers, these are URO cruisers

          All they did was air defense. Their entire design for these tasks
          SAM is not required, but for those who let them in, it is highly desirable

          Do you have information about this

          Or hitting air targets over the horizon - the target is out of sight of the ship itself
          1. 0
            10 August 2023 23: 37
            Quote: Santa Fe
            The 1950s missile cruiser is three times smaller than the 1940s artillery cruiser
            Not an indicator: New Orleans (9950 tons) - Baltimore (13 tons) - Des Moines (880 tons). Armament everywhere is 17 × 532 - 3 mm, the displacement has doubled.
            Quote: Santa Fe
            Do you have information about this
            ... Timokhin wrote that this is sorely lacking for 22350.
            1. 0
              11 August 2023 00: 11
              New Orleans (9950 tons) - Baltimore (13 tons) - Des Moines (880 tons). Armament everywhere is 17 × 532 - 3 mm, the displacement has doubled.

              You are in the topic about the fleet

              Do not pretend that you do not know how the contract cruisers differed from those laid down during / after the war. And why Des Moines, the most advanced, turned out to be especially difficult

              If we take a minimum - a Washingtonian of 10 tons, then it was 000 times larger than the missile cruisers of the 2-50s.

              Baltimore - already at 3.

              With the advent of rockets, no one else built such large ships. Long Beach and 1144 are unique, they loaded all the weapons and systems available in the fleet. Everything they could think of, a place is reserved on the scourge under the Polaris SLBM
              1. 0
                11 August 2023 09: 24
                Quote: Santa Fe
                Do not pretend that you do not know how the contract cruisers differed from those laid down during / after the war. And why Des Moines, the most advanced, turned out to be especially difficult
                That's it. I show that the displacement is determined not only and not so much by weapons, one fool (Washington agreement) is enough for it to decrease sharply.
                1. 0
                  13 August 2023 00: 47
                  I show that the displacement is determined not only

                  You argue with yourself, in this case

                  Ships are different, for different reasons.

                  That reduction in the size of the entire ship composition, observed since the late 1950s, was caused by the transition to missile weapons

                  In order to “throw” a couple of hundred kg of warheads over a distance of 300 cables (30 nautical miles), a 100 ton gun in a 1000 ton turret was no longer required. That's the whole story
          2. +1
            11 August 2023 10: 59
            Quote: Santa Fe
            The 1950s missile cruiser is three times smaller than the 1940s artillery cruiser

            Because Project 58 is not a cruiser. This is an overfed EM - an eggshell armed with a blacksmith's hammer. A case stuffed with weapons and electronics without any protection.
            With the same success, you can consider cruisers EM type 1936A - and compare them with the British KRL type C. smile
            Quote: Santa Fe
            For a ship, any rocket is a feather. This is not a 200 ton artillery turret (modest caliber, 152 mm)

            Do you remember Kuzin's description of the design process of Project 1164?
            Thus, the dimensions of the missiles again directly "crawled out" through the ship. The “armed men” did not understand this at all: “Just think, added "only" (!) less than a meter of length and less than a ton (!) of weight " (meaning a new rocket). Looking ahead, we note that these "only" cost the ship an additional 13 m in length, 2,3 m in width and 2700 tons of displacement.

            © Cousin
            1. 0
              13 August 2023 02: 37
              Do you remember Kuzin's description of the design process of Project 1164?

              Alexey, given your knowledge, you gave this example for the sake of humor

              Rocket weapons are lighter than guns and this is a well-known fact, there is nothing to argue about

              Yes, if you put 10-meter rockets on the upper deck, at a height of 10 meters above the water, then it turns out (surprise surprise) they will not fit on a ship with a standard military capacity of 7,5 thousand tons, this will require a ship with a displacement almost like "Washington" cruiser of the 1920s. 10 tons, which previously seemed like a difficult limitation, in the 000s was enough for 1970-meter rockets and for the entire range of weapons and means that a surface ship of the 10st rank could have

              Rocket armament weighs negligible compared to 8” artillery systems
              Because Project 58 is not a cruiser

              The main warship of our days (Berck & Co) has a standard weight of 6600 tons

              100 rocket launchers
              1. 0
                14 August 2023 15: 54
                You seem to be a storyteller, because: the armament of the Arleigh Burke destroyers of different sub-series is quite different. The main weapons of all 53 active ships of this type are 2 vertical launch units (VLR) Mark 41 VLS. The standard set of weapons for the destroyers of the first two sub-series of UVP consists of 74 RIM-66 SM-2 anti-aircraft missiles, 8 BGM-109 Tomahawk cruise missiles and 8 RUM-139 VL-Asroc anti-submarine missiles in a multi-purpose version or 56 BGM-109 Tomahawk cruise missiles and 34 RIM-66 SM-2 and RUM-139 VL-Asroc missiles in strike version. On destroyers of the IIA series, the total number of missiles carried by the ship increased from 90 to 96. The standard set of weapons for the destroyers of the third series of destroyers consists of 74 RIM-66 SM-2 missiles, 24 RIM-7 Sea Sparrow missiles (four per cell), 8 cruise missiles BGM-109 Tomahawk and 8 anti-submarine guided missiles RUM-139 VL-Asroc. 100 does not work, and perhaps missiles, not rocket launchers, by installations, I suppose one should understand 2 "UVP", with the above number of missiles for various purposes. Other here https://vpk.name/library/f/arleigh-burke.html
                1. 0
                  14 August 2023 17: 48
                  You seem to be a storyteller, because: the armament of the Arleigh Burke destroyers of different sub-series is quite different.

                  Missile armament for all sub-series - 90 or 96 missile launchers, minuscule differences
                  under the settings, I think it is necessary to understand 2 "UVP"

                  90+ launchers, grouped into two groups. bow and stern

                  Each square is a rocket launcher cover

                  An additional 4-8 launchers with missiles can be additionally installed on the deck
              2. 0
                14 August 2023 15: 59
                For comparison, the Korean modified clones of the Arleigh Burke destroyers. KDX-III type destroyers Sechong Taewanggup Kuchukham (King Sejong the Great, Sejong Daewang-geup Guchukham). Missile armament - 4 x 4 SSM-700K Hae Sung + 80 SAM SM-2, 1 x 21 RAM; Anti-submarine weapons - 16 x ASROC PLUR. (By the way, they stuffed all this into 3 UVP) Subr. here https://vpk.name/library/f/kdx-iii.html
  13. -1
    11 August 2023 17: 00
    Quote: Conjurer
    If we talk about trends, and not only about the fleet, but, in general, in military operations, then they are the following - secrecy, a strike from the inaccessible zone and crewlessness.

    I completely agree that unmanned ships are the ships of the future. Surface drones worth a penny are really a nightmare for the Russian Black Sea Fleet. and only the fact that these drones do little to save the photo from destruction. If there were a couple of hundred of them, all the ships would have sunk
  14. 0
    12 August 2023 20: 56
    (C) The spiral movement characteristic of history allows a scenario with the revival of ideas from the recent (or very distant) past at a new technological level.

    Agree. The first time I read about the "Glass Cockpit" was in the science fiction novel "Callisto" by Martynova.G.
  15. 0
    14 August 2023 05: 18
    In fairness, I should note that the German void is a project designed for long-term operation far from home bases with double or triple reliability of all systems and duplication of everything. This was the first, now the second: of course, it is possible to cram everything into one shell and even sometimes it turns out, but this does not add to the survival of the ship. There are also questions on automation issues - the proposed set of frigates, due to replace Peter the Great, suddenly has the worst displacement-to-crew ratio and is also inferior in terms of dynamic characteristics.
  16. 0
    15 August 2023 19: 24
    In discussions about excess tonnage and "emptiness" on some ships, the author completely lost sight of one important point - the survivability of the ship. Tonnage and cubic meters, not filled with missiles, guns and radars, can be filled with structural protection, redundant and layered fire extinguishing systems, compartment flooding and water pumping, double armored fire bulkheads and empty compartments around the cellars with missiles and fuel tanks can be left. You can simply leave more empty space in the compartments, where emergency teams could deploy in the event of a fire or water ingress.

    Let's remember how many hits the battleships received in the Tsushima battle and continued to fight. How many hits received in artillery duels battleships and cruisers of the First World War and again remained in service. And remember the cruiser "Moscow". Two hits - and the crew could not cope with the fire and smoke, they had to leave the ship. Although this is not only the fault of the ship, but also the crew.
  17. 0
    15 August 2023 20: 55
    Perhaps the future belongs to diving ships! Drones and missiles are already a big problem for the fleet. I am glad that the Russian Federation understands this!