An aircraft carrier is evil, but if someone lacks evil...

143
An aircraft carrier is evil, but if someone lacks evil...

Let's count the money in other people's pockets and be a little surprised? More precisely, we will consider aircraft carriers, but who said that they do not cost money? Not even money - SUM. But to begin with, I will allow myself a tiny and (oh miracle!) Not historical retreat.

The other day, a land mine from one of the readers flew to me in a personal. My constant references to history began to infuriate him, which, as he believes, simply lead away from the topic and distract. I totally agree and disagree with this at the same time. Yes, in armory journalism is simply unrealistic not to look back, everything was invented before us. It is very difficult for designers to come up with something new, and if it turns out, it doesn’t matter, the roots are there, in the past. So if this infuriates anyone - sorry, but there's nothing to be done about it.



But we are going to our sheep, that is, aircraft carriers.

Rummaging recently in articles of very ancient times (I was looking for something on the deck aviation Japan), suddenly brought himself back to the present and thought about this: the United States has a fleet of aircraft carriers. 11 pieces, of which 10 are of the Nimitz type and 1 of the Ford type. And this is a huge force, because in the case of any world-scale batch, these are 11 airfields, advanced to an arbitrarily large distance from the US coast. And at each airfield there are 80-100 aircraft capable of solving a variety of tasks. Pretty decent forward outpost, isn't it? 11 outposts.


And then what?

And then the fun begins. Behind the aircraft carrier fleet USA has another fleet. An aircraft carrier, which is twice as large in number.

Well, let's stop on this for now and go ... Yes, as usual, into history.

Now I’ll give you a general seditious thought for overclocking: not aircraft carriers won the war at sea between the United States and Japan.


It’s good that they don’t read us on the other side of the ocean, otherwise the karma of the khan would have come. They cursed, at least, as a maximum, and poked black needles into the chrysalis, as is customary there. Well, indeed, Midway, the Marshall Islands, Okinawa, Yamato ...


Well, let's say, there is no special honor in plugging the Yamato with torpedoes. A hefty ship without air cover was doomed in the same way that the Prince of Wales and Repulse went to the bottom in 1941. I mean, it's just a massacre. Rest…

Okay, let me clarify. Escort aircraft carriers ensured US victory at sea in the war with Japan.


And this is the essence and logic. While these heavyweights, attack aircraft carriers, were exchanging air raids, sinking each other and battleships, escorts quietly conducted convoys, cleared squares of submarines, and supported landings on hundreds of islands captured by the Japanese in the Pacific Ocean.

Routine such everyday work, which, it seems, was not worth distracting these Essexes and Enterprises. But if you look at the map of the Pacific Ocean and think about what territories were captured by Japan, you understand that the Germans only dreamed of such a blitzkrieg. And the coalition liberated these territories until September 1945.

Just numbers: aircraft carriers of the CV class (that is, "normal") and CVL (light type of the same "Independence") in the United States were built from 1927 to 1945 33 units of all projects. And escort aircraft carriers from 1940 to 1945 - 126.


Yes, escort aircraft carriers carried up to 30 aircraft, while normal aircraft carriers carried from 70 to 100 units. And the planes on them were by no means the latest modifications, but such a huge fleet of escorts had time everywhere. And since escort aircraft carriers were not built according to special projects, but were usually rebuilt from more or less suitable ships and vessels, usually bulk carriers, they could carry not only aircraft.

Do you understand what I'm leading to? The class of CVE, escort aircraft carriers, made it possible to move more than just aircraft. Anything could be loaded into the large holds of the former transports. Yes, CVE did not have the speeds of warships, but they gave out 15-18 knots. That is, a slow-moving convoy with troops, artillery, tanks, guns, fuel and ammunition slowly, but inevitably, walked towards its goal. And the convoy had cover planes, which could then take bombs under their wings and process the enemy’s front line of defense.

Well, everyone already understands what I'm getting at. To what exactly from escort aircraft carriers, the UDC class was born - assault landing ships.

And this is normal practice. In the same way, from the "male" and "female" tanks of the First World War, two classes of armored vehicles were born: from the "male", that is, armed with guns, a class of main tanks appeared, and from the "female", that is, armed only with machine guns, a class BMP.

The same thing happened with aircraft carriers. Normal, that is, class CV, were very effective, since one such ship could perform combat missions in a large region. How "Big E" after Pearl Harbor remained the only aircraft carrier in the area and nothing, somehow pulled out everything on the wings of its aircraft.

However, the moment: the Enterprise had a displacement of 25 tons, which in itself made it not a small ship. Speed ​​- 500 knots. Range - 32,5 miles.


Plus, "Big E" had (in 1943) a very impressive armament for a ship of this class:
- 8 universal guns 127 mm;
- 40 barrels of 40-mm "Boforsov" (8 × 2, 6 × 4);
- 50 single-barreled 20-mm Oerlikons.

Plus three elevators, two hydraulic catapults and up to 96 aircraft of various classes.

What does it all say? First of all, about the high cost and the fact that no matter how you get out, they don’t build such ships quickly. As shown, in fact, the statistics. The construction of strike aircraft carriers, even for a country like the United States, turned out to be a slow business. And what about Japan...

And the Navy (this applies to both countries) needed more aircraft carriers than it had. But for many missions, the fleet did not need an attack aircraft carrier. During missions to support amphibious assaults or escort convoys, a smaller amount of air force was sufficient.

Therefore, the US Navy came up with and implemented the idea of ​​escort aircraft carriers, small vessels that could be mass-produced and deployed. He built 126 escort carriers, including 50 Casablanca-class escort carriers, which were a formidable force.

USS Casablanca (CVE-55)


Displacement: 10 tons.
Speed: 19 nodes.
Range: 10 miles.

Armament (actual, not according to the project):
1 gun 127 mm;
8 × 2 anti-aircraft guns "Bofors" 40 mm;
30 × 20 mm Oerlikon anti-aircraft guns.

2 elevators, 1 catapult and up to 27 different aircraft.

The difference is palpable. An escort aircraft carrier is much more modest, but also cheaper. And efficiency ... We use the calculator to the maximum.

33 attack carriers could move (exaggerate) 96 aircraft each. Total - 3 aircraft.

126 escort aircraft carriers could carry 27 aircraft each. Total - 3 aircraft.

That is, these cheap things, which were rebuilt from bulk carriers, could carry as many aircraft as "clean" "real" strike aircraft carriers carried.

What do we have today?


And today, the US Marine Corps is actively using its landing craft. And these ships carry not only manpower, but also equipment, as well as ammunition and much of what is necessary for landing operations. Hospitals, communications, provisions and so on.

Can modern UDCs carry aircraft? Certainly. If it's F-35V. Generally no problem.

Let's take the "old men" of the US Navy, UDC class "Wasp". This is a modified Tarawa class for carrying AV-8B Harrier II VTOL aircraft and landing hovercraft (LCAC).


Just on the left - "Wasp", on the right - "Tarawa"


Landing craft are not of interest to us, but the question of whether Lightning 2 can be used instead of the Harrier does not require much thought. Of course, yes, it can.

And the UDC "Wasp" the Americans have 7 more pieces ...


Interesting ship. With a displacement of 40 tons, the UDC can move at speeds up to 500 knots over a distance of up to 22 miles.

And we will leave its defensive weapons (there is order), and look at the air group:
- 6 F-35B "Lightning II" fighters;
- 4 attack helicopters AH-1W / Z "Super Cobra" / "Viper";
- 12 MV-22B "Osprey" landing support convertoplanes;
- 4 heavy-lift helicopters CH-53E "Super Stallion";
- 3-4 utility helicopters UH-1Y "Venom".

But if you leave only 6 SH-60F anti-submarine helicopters, then the number of F-35B miraculously increases to 20. And this is already more interesting. In fact, this is plus one more Ford-class aircraft carrier.
And among other things, quite impressive UDCs of the "America" ​​type are still being built (according to project 11).

The displacement is even greater, almost 45 tons. The speed is about 000 knots, and the range is at least 20 miles. But the most important thing on our topic is from 10 to 000 F-20B aircraft.

Of course, the construction of the UDC is less costly and troublesome than the construction of an attack aircraft carrier. This is clear to everyone, the question is solely in the country's capabilities. The capabilities of the United States are enough to build not 11, but, say, 20 such ships, there would be a desire and how to equip these UDCs.

What for?

Why do you need an aircraft carrier? This is, first of all, a tool for projecting power into a certain area of ​​the world. This is a big sledgehammer that can strike with its planes where it reaches. Yes, deadly, effective and all that.

And five UDCs, having approximately the same number of aircraft, will be able to simultaneously deliver FIVE strikes at various points. Yes, and to land troops, which the aircraft carrier just cannot.

Of course, if you remember what 6 US aircraft carriers did to Iraq during Operation Desert Storm, then the loss of 40 aircraft against the background of the total number of sorties looks normal. This is just a great example of the competent use of an aircraft carrier sledgehammer.

And if it will be necessary, say, for demonstrative purposes, to capture an island like the same Spratly? Is it worth using a sledgehammer for this, or are a few hammers enough?

American experts themselves say that amphibious warships have very great prospects. They fit perfectly into the Marine Corps Operational Maneuver from the Sea (OMFTS) and Ship to Target Maneuver (STOM) principles. And most importantly - UDCs are able to ensure the fulfillment of the direct tasks of the US Marine Corps, and most importantly, to do this much cheaper than using the terrible shock fists of the AUG.


Indeed, to drive an aircraft carrier, a couple of cruisers and five destroyers to the other side of the world, and 10-12 escort ships to them - well, it’s just burning bundles of dollars in boilers. Or in an aircraft carrier reactor.

The use of UDC as a light aircraft carrier to perform less expensive tasks is not only justified financially, but also contains secondary profits. Rkech is about possible damage to the ship. It's one thing if, for example, a Ford gets a rocket into the holds, and it's a completely different thing if the UDC. It is very beneficial, both morally and financially.

The Marine Corps has experimented with maximizing the number of aircraft it deploys on LHA-type landing craft, and experiments have shown that the 16 F-35B deployed on the Tripoli UDC proved to be quite capable of performing any combat mission. The Tripoli deck crew did a pretty good job of getting the planes into the air and taking them back.

And if, if necessary, use the old docks-helicopter carriers of the Landing type ... Yes, they are really ancient, but they have all the necessary infrastructure for launching and receiving aircraft (albeit designed for the Harrier) and are not much inferior in size to the UDC type LHA.


Meanwhile, it is worth noting that the UDC is slowly and confidently "getting fat". "America" ​​really approaches the Indian aircraft carriers "Vikrant" and "Vikramaditsya" in terms of displacement (total displacement of 45 tons) and even surpasses the French "Charles de Gaulle" with its 000 tons. The Chinese "Liaoning" (full 42 tons), of course, is larger, but still, it falls short of the "Ford" (000 tons).

That is, if we take the American Gerald Ford as a standard, then almost all other aircraft carriers in the world can be safely classified as LHA or LHD type UDCs than as aircraft carriers. Or sign up for an escort. But, unlike the UDC, aircraft carriers do not take or land troops.

The issue of using such weapons as UDC will occupy the thoughts of experts and planners for a long time to come. The answer to the question of which is better, UDC or a full-fledged aircraft carrier will still be located where it will be more profitable to use ships of these classes.


But if the United States suddenly needed to mobilize all aircraft carrier resources, then by calling the LHA and LHD ships into service as assistants, the US aircraft carrier fleet would amount to more than 20 ships. That is more than the rest of the world combined.

That is, if the aircraft carrier is evil, but there is not enough evil, you can take the UDC. It definitely won't get worse. On the whole, this is a small hint that some Israeli-Turkish ships are roaming the Black Sea, and hammers do not knock in Kerch ...
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  1. +12
    5 August 2023 04: 09
    That is, if the aircraft carrier is evil, but there is not enough evil, you can take the UDC.

    Anything is possible if you're careful...
    Today I watched a video of a naval drone attacking our large landing ship in the port ... I scratched my turnips ... why the hell do you need aviation.
    I delivered this device to the attack area by submarine or dry cargo ship and attack the enemy like in a shooting range ... what was done against our warship ... the work of the British is felt ... everything is thought out ... you will have to forget about landing operations for a while.
    The UDC is also vulnerable to attacks from both the sea and the air ... if a whole swarm of surface, underwater, flying drones attack the target from different sides, it will be very difficult to fight back.
    Big changes are coming in the maritime military.
    1. -2
      5 August 2023 04: 35
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      to hell with aviation in general

      Quote: Lech from Android.
      Delivered ... a device to the attack area and attack the enemy like in a shooting range


      Well, why, aviation is quite useful. Coastal, of course, no decks, but with the current range and tasks of our country, this is beyond the eyes. Naturally, a universal land, and not some kind of specialized marine.
      But in general, yes - the "device" now, either by air or by water, or under water, can be launched hundreds and thousands of kilometers away. Right off the coast. So not only are aircraft carriers not needed (until we get ready to "project force" somewhere in South America), but large NKs are also in question.
      1. +3
        5 August 2023 05: 41
        so not only aircraft carriers are not needed (until we get ready to "project force" somewhere in South America), but also large NKs are in question.

        Interestingly, how to take Odessa?
        It is clear that if there is no fleet, then everything is done on the ground. But if in a human way?

        Swarms, of course, are good - both on land and at sea, but for each means of attack, a means of defense is invented.
        At the same time, the basic tasks remain on land and at sea - to deliver soldiers to their destination and support them with fire ...
        1. +3
          5 August 2023 08: 37
          Quote from tsvetahaki
          Interestingly, how to take Odessa?

          Recently there was a series of articles about the capture of Crete by the Germans. Having air supremacy, they captured the island without any fleet and sent a significant part of the English fleet in the Mediterranean to the bottom or to the dock.
          1. +6
            5 August 2023 15: 38
            and this article described WHAT losses the guys of Student suffered ??? ... and how many ''aunts Yu'' were lost .. and yes .. someone today really considers an airborne assault on the scale of Crete possible .. how many IL-76s of us in the ranks and how many will remain after (if) and our Airborne Forces have already been noted in this war (but not in the NWO) when they took the Kiev airfield and that ... blood was shed in vain (yeah THIS is already politics) and we have a pure strategy .. .Oh well..
      2. +6
        5 August 2023 05: 51
        Quote: squid
        So not only aircraft carriers are not needed (until we are going to "project force"

        And how are we going to "project", so "quickly and build" aircraft carriers and destroyers, nuclear submarines and UDC ... The main thing is what? The main thing is "wishfulness and money", and technologies, experience, specialists, they, if anything, materialize immediately, well, not that instantly, after the signing of the decree, of course ... wassat

        To Article:
        The answer to the question of which is better, UDC or a full-fledged aircraft carrier will still be located where it will be more profitable to use ships of these classes.

        That is, if the aircraft carrier is evil, but evil is not enough, you can take UDC

        For the sake of these two obvious phrases, it was not necessary to write an article.
        1. +1
          5 August 2023 11: 41
          And how are we going to "project", so "quickly and build" aircraft carriers and destroyers, nuclear submarines and UDC ... The main thing is what? The main thing is "wishfulness and money", and technologies, experience, specialists, they, if anything, materialize immediately, well, not that instantly, after the signing of the decree, of course ... wassat

          If we continue to trail behind, repeating after the Americans, we will never catch up.
          We must play ahead of the curve, and not repair non-aircraft carriers of past centuries.

          And above all - the right plane.
          Why does such an aircraft need a GDP, catapults and a finisher at all? wink



          Classic aircraft carriers are living out the last decades. Yes
          1. +2
            5 August 2023 13: 31
            Quote: Arzt
            Why does such an aircraft need a GDP, catapults and a finisher at all?

            Yeah... request And I do not know - whether ( + ) you put .. or ( - ) ?
            This F 35? in the light of the current hostilities, it turns out to be a really effective thing.
            The more embarrassing for us.
            ------
            put the same ( + ) to balance .. although .. they will downvote .. most likely.
          2. +9
            5 August 2023 18: 32
            Quote: Arzt
            If we continue to trail behind, repeating after the Americans, we will never catch up.
            We must play ahead of the curve, and not repair non-aircraft carriers of past centuries.

            Yes, it is necessary not to copy, not to repeat, but to develop your own concept for the development of the Navy, for the purposes of Russia. Do not copy, but build what our country needs. We need to balance needs with opportunities. Does the Russian Navy need aircraft carriers? Of course needed. Can Russia now build something like Nimitz/Ford? No. So it is necessary to balance needs with opportunities ...
            1. +9
              5 August 2023 22: 57
              Quote: Doccor18
              Yes, it is necessary not to copy, not to repeat, but to develop your own concept for the development of the Navy, for the purposes of Russia. Do not copy, but build what our country needs. We need to balance needs with opportunities.

              Yes
              Let's try to do it together, shall we?
              We roughly know the capabilities and potential of our ship and aircraft industry ... but ... let's just imagine that the country and its Armed Forces are led by ... a competent, responsible and purposeful statesman ... and he has a certain team like-minded people, on which he can rely ... Well, otherwise nothing will work out and we will be sad again.
              So, suppose that in our country for 8 years now ... not just "study", but also the development of that very VTOL aircraft, which cannot be spoken aloud. And the appearance of the Su-75 airframe model is such a ... distracting maneuver and a hint in one compote ... Indeed, how many years have there been rumors that a group of designers of the former Design Bureau named after. Yakovlev has been dragging around with one of the surviving Yak-41s and an engine from the Yak-201 for a long time ... And miraculously a couple of years ago it surfaced that the new R-579V-300 engine was already in development, and a whole family of engines for various purposes is expected on it base...
              In general, let's assume that in a few years the domestic VTOL aircraft can really take to the air. Its engine is more powerful than that of the F-35, and the experience gained and taken into account in creating the F-35 (after all, the Yakovlevites worked on it) will make it possible to avoid those mistakes and weaknesses that have not yet been eliminated in its design.
              In short, let's assume all the best things, that everything will turn out / turn out / turned out in the best possible way, and ... let's turn all our attention to the Concept.

              So, what does our Navy need?
              It is necessary to provide air defense and anti-aircraft defense in the area of ​​​​combat deployment of our SSBNs in the Barents and Okhotsk Seas. And the stability of our surface grouping in the area.
              We have already decided for a long time that for such tasks it will be quite enough AV of an average VI, about 40 - 000 tons.
              Moreover, we even calculated its approximate cost - about 2 - 2,5 billion dollars. , as well as the composition and total number of ships of its escort (4 frigates pr. 22350.1 years old ... in ruble terms, of course). We will have this for comparison with the alternative Concept for building an aircraft carrier fleet for solving the MAIN tasks of the Fleet and the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation as a whole.
              So, let's imagine that the new Concept involves the construction of not 6 classic ABs of medium VI, but ...
              "We now have a VTOL aircraft with the characteristics of a normal MFI, including in terms of range, speed, altitude and composition of weapons. But at the same time, it is 25 or even 30% more expensive to purchase and the same amount to operate. And yes - its life cycle is shorter than that of a classic fighter.
              Already scared?
              Expensive ?
              But nothing that exactly the same can be said about any other carrier-based fighter?
              Well , or about the same .
              These were the disadvantages of the new Concept. And now let's talk (and then count) its advantages. Go ?
              So:
              1) Within the framework of this concept, we already need COMPLETELY different aircraft carriers ... exactly / approximately like modern UDCs that are being built by the USA, China and ... even Russia (although it is difficult to call flour in the Gulf a full-fledged construction). And their cost is very much lower than the classic AB of the same VI. In our case, this is something about 1 billion dollars. ... this is if his VI is just 40 - 000 tons.
              2) On such an AV / UDC, we no longer need, and it is impossible to base an AWACS aircraft. But on the other hand, it is possible to place a group of AWACS HELICOPTERS on it, which are much easier to implement and operate, and also take up much less space in the hangar.
              3) GEM ... Not even like that, in our case it should sound like this - GEM !!! For the motor curse for our God-saved Fatherland remains one of the main scourges and fetters of our Shipbuilding. So, with SUCH AB, everything will be much easier for us. For the first two, a power plant is planned on four M70FRU turbines (4 x 14 l / s = 000 l / s). For UDC VI, either 56, or 000 tons, this is quite enough, but for AV \ UDC VI 28 - 000 tons, something more powerful is needed ... And lo and behold - we have such a "more powerful" , and without any additional expenditure of money and time Yes this is the power plant of the new "large" frigate, pr. bully fellow And how easy it is to solve. In addition - UNIFICATION Yes with GEM escort ships.
              And yet - the cost of the life cycle and the complexity of repairs of such AB \ UDC will be a multiple cheaper than that for classic AB of the same VI.
              Now about the composition and number.
              Of course, we have a new Concept, the cost of its implementation has noticeably decreased ... Therefore, we will not be modest and declare the required number of such ships for the Fleet at ... 10 (ten) units. Based on 4 such AV \ UDC for the Pacific Fleet and 3 of the same AV \ UDC for the Northern Fleet and Black Sea Fleet.
              Sharply bent?
              Let's count.
              The cost of purchasing / building such AB for us will be about 10 billion dollars. (equivalent of course). And according to the previous concept, it was 6 x 2,5 = 15 billion dollars. belay Oops belay And it turns out to be one and a half times cheaper!
              And this is only the cost of the actual ships \ AV \ UDC.
              The fact that in this case we do not need an AWACS aircraft (the revival of the Yak-44 is not required !!), and the new AWACS helicopter will be much cheaper in development, in terms of timing, and in everything else. In short, we already have two VERY serious bonuses from the new Concept.
              Now an air wing.
              The cost of VTOL aircraft is not easy to calculate, but we will try. and at the same time we won’t even look at advertising booklets with the price tag of the Su-75 ... In general, I propose to call this VTOL aircraft simply Yak-75 ... just for convenience.
              So, I do not believe in the Su-57 price tag of 37 million dollars. ... but in 50 million dollars. - I believe completely. therefore, I believe that in SERIAL production, VTOL aircraft will have exactly the same price tag. Experienced and pre-production machines will of course be more expensive. In addition ... we completely lost sight of the NUMBER of such VTOL aircraft that our Navy needs to fill the air wings of TEN AV \ UDC.
              The air wing of each should be approximately 20 - 25 Yak-75. For evenness of the score, let's assume that we each have two squadrons, that is, 24 such VTOL aircraft. For 10 AB, this will amount to 240 cars.
              Well, taking into account the reserve to make up for losses and training units, we will determine the total fleet for the Yak-75 in ... 300 vehicles.
              Now let's calculate the cost of their purchase.
              300 x 50 million = $15 billion what
              A lot of ? lol Well, with the purchase of the rest of the fleet (4 AWACS helicopters, 4 - 6 PLO helicopters, 2 PSS helicopters each), including the reserve, we will assume that the ENTIRE fleet for 10 AV / UDC will cost about 20 billion dollars.
              Respectable amount.
              Let's add another 10 ... no, even 15 billion dollars. for the creation of basic infrastructure, airfields, barracks, headquarters, classrooms, workshops, etc.
              What else is left?
              Escort.
              Here it is more difficult.
              1. +3
                5 August 2023 23: 53
                Let's try to do it together, shall we?

                Quite realistically. Good schedule. Yes

                As for the Sea of ​​Okhotsk - there was an article a couple of years ago. About Japanese UDC, suspiciously similar to AB.
                So, they are already buying 42 F-35В, the first will go this year. Modernized "Kaga" and "Izumo" and have already tested wink .

                1. +2
                  6 August 2023 00: 25
                  Quote: Arzt
                  Quite realistically. Good schedule.

                  You haven't read the sequel yet. request Not included in one post.
              2. +5
                5 August 2023 23: 58
                There are more aircraft carriers! Now they will need more escort ships! angry
                Yes . Yes Ships really need more. 4 frigates for each. One complex supply ship each. By tanker. One sea tug each (and where without it).
                Frigates ... I think that for services in the Barents and Okhotsk Seas, frigates pr. frigates pr. 22350.1M (price approximately up to 550 million dollars each). Suppose that half of all the frigates we need according to the Concept (22350 units in total) will be 750, and the second half 40M.
                20 x 550 million = 11 billion dollars. (for 20 frigates project 22350.1)
                20 x 750 million = $15 billion (for 20 frigates pr. 22350M)
                Total: 11 + 15 = $26 billion for 40 frigates.
                A lot of ?
                Lot . Yes But we have not yet talked about the timing of the implementation of this program.
                In addition, if you count these 26 billion dollars. also the cost of 10 integrated supply ships (ocean-class, by the way), ten tankers (each capable of refueling the entire AUG) and ten sea tugs ... I would throw another 2 - 4 billion dollars.
                The total cost of the entire escort is another 30 billion dollars.
                And now let's sum up the cost of building ten (!) AUGs for our fleet, the full complement of air wings and escorts for them.
                - The cost of 10 AB \ UDC \u10d XNUMX billion dollars.
                - The cost of purchasing 10 air wings for them, taking into account the reserve = 15 billion dollars.
                - The cost of an escort to 10 AB \ UDC = 30 billion dollars.
                - The cost of basic infrastructure for 10 AB / UDC and their air wings = 15 billion dollars.
                The cost of the construction program for 10 AUGs, air wings and basic infrastructure for them:
                10 + 15 + 30 + 15 = $70 billion
                A lot of ?
                Lot ! Yes But! stop We haven't talked about timing yet.
                In the last program, when we built 6 AUGs on aircraft carriers of medium VI, we calculated the program period for 15-17 years. And we got an average annual cost of about 3,5 billion rubles.
                According to the new Concept, we need to build not 6, but 10 AUGs. And although AB according to the new Concept is simpler and cheaper than the classic ones, there is a factor of construction sites and the construction cycle. And even if we build AB data at two shipyards (in the Gulf and at the Far Eastern Zvezda), moreover, using the in-line method (when one is on the slipway, the second is being completed, the third is being tested), then this program will still require no less than 20 years old.
                request Excuse me here.
                But what do we get in the cost of this program for one year? winked
                About a miracle - yes, all the same 3,5 billion dollars. in year !!! fellow laughing
                And let someone say that in terms of finances, such a program is unaffordable for the budget !! Yes, in the past year alone, our budget revenues exceeded the plan by TWO (if not three) times the cost of the ENTIRE program.
                And 3,5 billion dollars. per year Budget even request won't notice.
                But HOW the domestic Sudo-and Aircraft Industry will sparkle with all colors !! How much money will flow into the Economy through this Program, and not just in the industry of High, but in the industry of the Extremely High high-tech. How many new jobs will be created! How competencies will develop in all these and related industries! How many new highly qualified specialists will this Program give birth to!
                Well, and like a cherry on the cake - HOW the power, strength and ability to project force in any corner of the globe will increase in our Navy.

                Here are some thoughts about the Concept.

                I would combine both of these Concepts. winked Well, what is 7 billion dollars. per year for the Great State? But I’m afraid that shipbuilding capacities simply won’t be enough for this ... Although if you think about it what ... Nothing is impossible ... and I could even suggest where such capacities ... can be obtained ... and how to increase it. feel
                but that's a completely different story.
                hi
                1. +4
                  6 August 2023 00: 38
                  10 + 15 + 30 + 15 = $70 billion
                  A lot of ?

                  A lot of? It depends on what you compare it to.
                  If with those 300 that we have hung in Western banks, then not a lot. Even if you throw 100% on corruption - 150 and then a little.

                  Compared to the benefits that we would have.
                  America seems to respect only those countries that have a powerful ocean fleet. Maybe CBO would not be required. Yes
                  1. +2
                    6 August 2023 01: 00
                    Quote: Arzt
                    A lot of? It depends on what you compare it to.
                    If with those 300 that we have hung in Western banks, then not a lot. Even if you throw 100% on corruption - 150 and then a little.

                    The most interesting thing is that in one year such a program will eat only 3,5 billion dollars. , which our Budget may not notice at all. We only have more annual budget income from grain trade (foreign!) If the State Insurance Company of Sea Transportation is established, then its income alone may be enough to build the Fleet. Only all ships of the Shadow Fleet must be brought into domestic jurisdiction and taken (except for other insured events) for ensuring the safety of navigation. And the sea traffic of our exports (and imports, by the way) will cover all the costs of building, developing and maintaining the Navy. Exactly as Admiral Gorshkov bequeathed.
                2. +3
                  6 August 2023 00: 45
                  Quote: bayard
                  The cost of the construction program for 10 AUGs, air wings and basic infrastructure for them:
                  10 + 15 + 30 + 15 = $70 billion

                  Small correction. An error crept into the calculation, and editing large texts on this site is not very convenient ...
                  Of course, the cost of all 10 air wings is estimated at about 20 billion dollars. (15 billion, this is the cost of only 300 Yak-75).
                  Based on this, the total cost of the Program will not be 70, but 75 billion dollars.
                  But at the same time, the terms for the implementation of the program should still be estimated at 20-22 years. feel Still, build 10 AUGs, not play chess.
                  So, as a result, the average expenses for one year of the Program will be the same 3,5 billion dollars.
                  Additional shipbuilding capacities may eventually appear in St. Petersburg (where icebreakers are now being built) and on the Kola Peninsula ... And they are also going to build something like that (a new supershipyard) in Kronstadt.

                  And you thought I was hinting about Nikolaev? lol
                  Not yet .
                  But if this happens in the foreseeable future, then let it be a pleasant surprise.
                  hi
                3. 0
                  7 August 2023 15: 59
                  Ease... of thoughts...
                  The real cost of such a "program" to create (actually - recreate) the Navy will require about half a trillion dollars over 20 years.
                  In addition to the "ships" proper, it will be necessary to invest simply monstrous funds in shipyards, associated production (including special steels), training a huge number of personnel, sailors, and so on ... and so on ...
                  Can you at least roughly imagine the state of Russian shipbuilding now?
                  1. +3
                    7 August 2023 19: 39
                    Quote: A.TOR
                    The real cost of such a "program" to create (actually - recreate) the Navy will require about half a trillion dollars over 20 years.

                    This is not at all about the cost of the Fleet as a whole, but specifically its aircraft carrier part, with escort ships, the cost of purchasing air wings and creating basic infrastructure.
                    Of course, this does not include funds for the development / modernization of shipyards (actually, this is an investment in the form of loans and I will give this money to the enterprise from the profit during the program), without the cost of equipping all these AUGs, retrofitting, WEAPONS, arsenals of BC (for one air wings these Ammo and equipment on AB and at the arsenals in the bases will require an amount perhaps equal to the aircraft itself), the same applies to escort ships - equipping them with missile and other weapons and forming a stock in the arsenals of the bases will cost quite a lot. But I only considered the cost of building ships, air wings and creating basic infrastructure.
                    And of course without the corruption component.
                    Quote: A.TOR
                    In addition to the "boats" proper, you will have to invest simply monstrous funds in shipyards,

                    Our frigates are being built in St. Petersburg. And since there are no more problems with the power plant, and all other problems have been solved before.
                    This year, contracts were to be concluded for the construction of 6 of the same frigates (22350.1) with the Amur Shipyard, and a contract for the first two "large frigates" pr. 22350M in the new boathouse Admiralteisky.
                    There is the possibility of building the same frigates (both 22350.1 and 22350M) on the Kaliningrad "Yantar" - there are 7 stocks suitable for the size and carrying capacity for the construction of 22350M. And they have not forgotten how to build frigates there - now they are completing two pr. 11356 for India, and under the USSR they built pr. 1155.
                    So, of course, investments will be required, and the recruitment of new workers and engineering personnel, and new equipment ... But these are capital investments in a long program ... these are LOANS (of course, preferential, but loans!) Which will be repaid from the profit from the sale programs (construction and delivery of ships). Of course, with the NORMAL organization of all pricing procedures and advance payments under these contracts.
                    Quote: A.TOR
                    associated production (including special steels)

                    Many productions will simply need to scale up - expand orders. We actually build our ships from our own steel. And the same India until quite recently bought ship steel from us. There are always problems, but they are usually due to DуR@kov, enemies and indifferent people. And also because of the lack of orders. Here, with the latter, in the case of the implementation of the Program), there will be no problems.
                    Quote: A.TOR
                    training a huge number of personnel, sailors and so on ... and so on ...

                    And the pilots??
                    How many pilots are needed !! That's the trouble. And even now there are not enough of them ... and there is only one flight school.
                    If nothing is done, then nothing will be done.
                    And this is not about what will happen, but about what can happen if the decision to build the Ocean Fleet is made.
                    Quote: A.TOR
                    will require about half a trillion dollars over 20 years.

                    Spending on the construction and development of the ENTIRE Fleet may well be, especially if you steal as if not in yourself and include in these costs the cost of maintaining the existing Fleet.
                    And if 500 billion dollars. divided by 20 years, then it will turn out 25 billion dollars. in year . smile You really think this is some sky-high numbers.
                    Before the NMD, the Russian Federation spent about 55-60 billion dollars on defense per year. , excluding closed budget items . Now spent 2+ times.
                    But the US spends about $1 trillion a year. , and they lack ... ships are being built slowly, repaired slowly, the fleet of ships is shrinking and aging ... Trillion. bully
                    And you are some 25 billion (I did not check) dollars. scared.
                    Quote: A.TOR
                    Can you at least roughly imagine the state of Russian shipbuilding now?

                    Only approximately. But I know that it (in its civilian part) is developing. And in the sea, and in the river, and in its ocean component.
                    And in order for the Military Shipbuilding to be developed, for this it is necessary to implement LONG SHIPBUILDING PROGRAMS. And everything will work out.
              3. +3
                6 August 2023 08: 57
                Quote: bayard
                Let's try to do it together

                Your comments are more like articles good
                hi
                Quote: bayard
                within the framework of this concept, we already need COMPLETELY other aircraft carriers ... exactly like modern UDCs that are being built by the USA, China and ... even Russia

                So let's try to figure it out:
                1. The PRC and the United States are really building UDCs, they are actively building them, and will use them as light aircraft carriers, if necessary, but they never thought and did not replace them with classic multi-purpose aircraft carriers.
                2. The maximum speed of the UDC is much less than that of an aircraft carrier. This slow "behemoth" will slow down the entire squadron. Wasp / America gives out a maximum of 22 knots, and the Soviet old man Ivan Rogov generally had cruising 14,5 knots ... A modern AUG should be able to go at least a few hours at a speed of 30-35 knots.
                3. The construction of such an armada of ships (for 80 pennants) will pose serious challenges for the Russian ship repair industry ...
                1. +3
                  6 August 2023 15: 28
                  Quote: Doccor18
                  Your comments are more like articles

                  Thank you . It’s just that the topic is interesting and quite empirical, and also very important, because when starting the construction of the Large Fleet (DM and OZ) and aircraft carriers, it is very important not to make an initial conceptual mistake. For the Fleet is being built for a LONG time, and it is difficult to correct unthought-out mistakes in the course of developing the current program due to the inertia of the entire production, planning and structural process. Therefore, all the pros and cons must be weighed ahead of time and proceed from the dynamics of the process and the actual vital tasks of the Fleet and the Armed Forces as a whole.
                  It was not in vain that I began with the tasks of our Fleet in the Barents and Okhotsk Seas. These are tasks number 1. Based on THESE tasks, I compared the previous Program and the proposed alternative New one. And the main condition for this New Program is the AVAILABILITY or the prospect of an early adoption of VTOL aircraft with the characteristics and combat capabilities of a conventional LFMI. The appearance of the Su-75 airframe (to a lesser extent) and information about the R-579V-300 engine (to a greater and much more significant extent) gives a chance to consider this New Program, based on the fact that we will have such a VTOL aircraft in the foreseeable future . And while the leadership does not have clear clarity and confidence that everything will turn out exactly like this, it is necessary to consider Program No. 0 as a working one, because the MiG-1S already exists, it has a glider from the MiG-35K \ KUB, but new engines, avionics, armament. For a catapult aircraft carrier, this is by far the best option. If you get a Su-29 in a classic look, then nothing prevents you from making a deck version of it, but the only gain will be in the stealth of the glider and in the fact that you will have to service not two, but one engine.
                  Therefore, the New Program (Program No. 2) should not be considered as necessarily desirable, but as more preferable in terms of simplicity and speed of implementation (not completion, but the effect of the start of operation of the first VTOL aircraft).
                  Quote: Doccor18
                  2. The maximum speed of the UDC is much less than that of an aircraft carrier. This slow "behemoth" will slow down the entire squadron. Wasp / America gives out a maximum of 22 knots, and the Soviet old man Ivan Rogov generally had cruising 14,5 knots ... A modern AUG should be able to go at least a few hours at a speed of 30-35 knots.

                  This was relevant for WWII and the Cold War, when a war with an enemy on the high seas was supposed (including), and even then Soviet ABs did not run faster than 30 knots. For VTOL aircraft, the speed of the oncoming flow during takeoff is not so important, and the speed of the ship during landing is not so important. This is important to understand and keep in mind when considering .
                  And for operations in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk and the Barents Sea, high speeds of movement of the AUG are not at all necessary. The very fact of the presence of such ships in the Area and its ability to provide air defense of the Area with carrier-based fighters is important. And if we take into account that the AB data in the Areas will most likely be accompanied by frigates of project 22350.1 with a relatively low economic speed, then in this mode the AUG will move at a speed that is comfortable for both types of ships. It's just that there are already frigates and they continue to be built, for the Pacific Fleet they are planned for today up to 10 pieces. So the power plant from the frigate 22350M will be quite harmonious and economical for such an AV / UDC.
                  Quote: Doccor18
                  3. The construction of such an armada of ships (for 80 pennants) will pose serious challenges for the Russian ship repair industry ...

                  Considering that these ships will be based on 3 fleets, then the SRZ with the corresponding capabilities will need to be built / developed on all three fleets. At the Pacific Fleet, this will certainly be the Zvezda ship repair facilities (they are going to build them), and since. and it is supposed to build the Pacific AB exactly there, then they will have the Banner in their hands. There is a 35th Shipyard in the Northern Fleet, which is modernizing Kuznetsov, a dry dock has appeared there, and soon there will be a corresponding floating dock. Therefore, investments in the modernization of the 35th plant will be required, but the competencies are already there. Well, at the Black Sea Fleet, this is of course Kerch, where part of the AB data will be built, it’s just that the capacities and areas of the “Gulf” need to be expanded. By the way, I watched the shooting of the area, there are opportunities for expansion there.
                  Quote: Doccor18
                  (under 80 pennants)

                  But only 3,5 billion dollars each. per year to build all this wealth.
              4. +2
                6 August 2023 11: 10
                Quote: bayard
                The cost of purchasing / building such AB for us will be about 10 billion dollars. (equivalent of course). And according to the previous concept, it was 6 x 2,5 = 15 billion dollars. Oops . And it turns out to be one and a half times cheaper!

                4. One and a half times cheaper, but also weaker ...
                5. Even with a comparable amount of aviation on one classic (48 cars) and two UDCs (2 × 24), the first one will be able to keep MORE winged cars in the sky, LONGER, send FURTHER, see FURTHER, and so on.
                6. We are not so rich and strong (as we would like), which means that we will almost always face an enemy with a numerical superiority at sea. Under such conditions, we simply need to have the best carrier-based fighter on ships, with outstanding characteristics in terms of ammunition mass and combat radius, and VTOL aircraft will almost always be inferior to a classical fighter.
                7. An aircraft carrier must necessarily have an atomic heart, because dragging slow-moving tankers everywhere is a weak link in the squadron, and not an advantage.
                8. Maintenance of aircraft carriers is not an easy and expensive business. Even space-rich democrats are tired of repairing their 11 mega aircraft carriers, deadlines are constantly missed ... It will also be difficult (if not worse) for our ship repair to provide maintenance for 10 AUGs.
                9. I believe that 6 classic AUGs (6 aircraft carriers and 24 frigates) are the most preferable option for our country than 10 with UDC. Yes, they will come out more expensive, it will take longer and more difficult to build them, but in this case it is simply necessary. Perhaps someday AI will be able to replace an experienced pilot in the cockpit, and UAVs will surpass manned aircraft in all characteristics, then the UDC will sparkle with new colors, like a carrier UAV ...
                1. +2
                  6 August 2023 16: 26
                  Quote: Doccor18
                  4. One and a half times cheaper, but also weaker ...

                  Perhaps you have forgotten the characteristics of those AVs that we considered and calculated in Program No. 1. And these were non-nuclear (!) AVs of medium VI 45 - 000 tons with a catapult and arrester, with the possibility of basing AWACS aircraft of the Hawkeye or Yak-50 class. And it was also planned to base on them 000 carrier-based fighters of the MiG-44K \ KUG class, 24 - 35 Yak-2s (or 4 AWACS helicopters) and 44-4 PLO and PSS helicopters.
                  That is, in terms of the number of combat fighters, the AB data are absolutely identical, and the characteristics of the promising VTOL aircraft (let's call it the Yak-75 for simplicity) are expected to be exactly at the level of the MiG-35S. And in terms of speed (2100 - 2200 km / h), and in terms of thrust-weight ratio (here VTOL aircraft will probably even be better with its 22 kg.s in afterburner and 000 kg.s without it), and in terms of maneuverability, and even in range . For even the Yak-14 had a combat radius at the level of the Hornet - 000 - 41 km. And this is when taking off from the deck with a run, flying to the area, working in the area and returning to AB with a reserve of fuel, and a vertical landing. And for the Yak-840, the combat radius was already planned at the level of 860 - 201 km. And in terms of combat load in the fighter version, they also have approximate parity (if the VTOL aircraft will have missiles on pylons).
                  Quote: Doccor18
                  5. Even with a comparable number of aircraft on one classic (48 cars) and two UDCs (2 × 24)

                  You apparently compare them with "Nimitz" or "Ford" what Well, in principle, yes, two such ABs will be able to produce as many as one Nimitz (with the classic configuration, it has exactly the same squadron (24 pieces) of strikers, a squadron (24 more pieces) of fighters, and everything else - AWACS, transport, ASW, helicopters, convertiplanes ... So yes, you can compare. But a lot will depend on the nuances. And in this case, having two aircraft-carrying platforms would probably be preferable than one. But parity is possible in air battles.
                  In addition, VTOL aircraft need to be prepared for takeoff much less. In case of special need and from a parking space, they can start vertically - on the Krechet for the Yak-41 it was supposed to be for the duty link - without jogging and reaching the starting position, take off straight from the spot - "with checkers on the head."
                  So 6 medium ABs from Program #1 will be able to carry:
                  6 x 24 = 144 fighters.
                  And 10 AB from Program No. 2 will already carry:
                  10 x 24 = 240 fighters.
                  Where more and how better, consider yourself. But the main evaluation criterion is "If we have a VTOL aircraft equal to the characteristics of the LFMI of the MiG-35S level." And if such an aircraft appears in our country and confirms its characteristics, then Program No. 2 looks clearly preferable.
                  But I didn’t stress at the very end for nothing:
                  Quote: bayard
                  I would combine both of these Concepts. Well, what is 7 billion dollars. per year for the Great State? But I'm afraid that there simply won't be enough shipbuilding capacities for this ... Although if you think about it ... Nothing is impossible ... and I could even suggest where such capacities ... can be obtained ... and how to increase it.

                  That is, ideally, some kind of compilation of both of these programs is possible and desirable. But then the Concept of Building the Fleet should be considered for the perspective of 30-40 years, in the dynamics of the development of the State itself and with the condition that there is a close-knit group of like-minded people in power, building the State, the Economy and the Armed Forces, as was done by the best leaders of the USSR (not Khrushchev and Gorbachev) and RI (not Nikola-2, by no means).
                  So this Concept is more like Gymnastics for the Mind ... but also "Program No. 2" - if we still have a VTOL aircraft with such characteristics.

                  if you want more speed for such an AB, then there is nothing easier - four M90FR turbines for two shafts and it will be like the Indian "Vikrant" (it has both the power plant and the VI are the same).
                  Quote: Doccor18
                  6. We are not so rich and strong (as we would like), which means that we will almost always face an enemy with a numerical superiority at sea.

                  For the next 10 years, our main water areas are the Barents and Okhotsk Seas. And there it will be very difficult to get an advantage over us in view of the proximity of bases and the help of base aviation (heavy fighters Su-57, Su-35S, MiG-31 and Su-30SM2) and air defense systems of warrant ships. And in the DM and OZ during the threatened period, our AUG will not be able to go out soon. And to achieve such an opportunity, not only ABs are needed, but also developed surface forces and the Ship Support Fleet in DM and OZ (ocean integrated supply ships, tankers), as well as a sufficient number of MAPLs and SSGNs. And the stake in the development of the Fleet on the latter (SSGN "Borey-K" to strengthen the strike capabilities of the KUG and AUG) will allow increasing such capabilities as quickly and efficiently as possible.
                  Quote: Doccor18
                  7. An aircraft carrier must necessarily have an atomic heart, because dragging slow-moving tankers everywhere is a weak link in the squadron, and not an advantage.

                  Will we build escort ships with nuclear power plants too ?? belay Don't forget that ABs don't walk alone. For our Ulyanovsks, the Orlans were built in pairs (oh, how expensive and difficult it was), and in pairs they had to make ONLY inter-naval and inter-theater transitions. And at the rendezvous points they were obliged to meet and escort the ships of the previously deployed operational squadrons. You must know about this, right?
                  So since the escort ships still need fuel, water, technical fluids, etc. supply, then what's the difference - to drive a medium tanker for an escort, or a large one for the entire AUG.
                  The Americans, on the other hand, began to build their nuclear monsters not at all for the sake of saving fuel, but to provide steam catapults with FERRY, and at full speed (to ensure take-off and landing of aircraft). Ordinary ABs could not provide the desired pace and number of sorties per day - it was necessary to have 200, and they gave out no more than 120 to the maximum, and even then the speed had to be reduced. And the atomic "Interprise" easily issued 200 sorties a day at full speed. This is how the "Nimitzes" appeared ... moreover, with a terrible debate, because the cost of operating a nuclear AB grew 4 times compared to a conventional one. And this is not to mention the technical difficulties and the danger of radioactive contamination in the event of an accident or destruction of anti-ship missiles.
                  The American admirals went for it with great bickering and reluctance. There is enough literature about this, by the way, and it was already discussed at VO several years ago.
                  1. +3
                    6 August 2023 17: 45
                    Quote: bayard
                    we considered and calculated in Program No. 1. And these were non-atomic (!) ABs of medium VI 45 000 - 50 000

                    Non-nuclear ones are unlikely to be optimal for our fleet. The colossal domestic experience in the design and operation of shipboard nuclear reactors makes it possible to build nuclear aircraft carriers, perhaps not even greatly raising the bar for the cost of construction and operation, in comparison with non-nuclear ones, but they will give an undeniable advantage.


                    Quote: bayard
                    So 6 medium ABs from Program #1 will be able to carry:
                    6 x 24 = 144 fighters.

                    Why only 24 cars? Even De Gaulle has 36 in the air group ...
                    1. +1
                      6 August 2023 19: 44
                      Quote: Doccor18
                      Non-nuclear ones are unlikely to be optimal for our fleet. The colossal domestic experience in the design and operation of shipboard nuclear reactors makes it possible to build nuclear aircraft carriers, perhaps not even greatly raising the bar for the cost of construction and operation, in comparison with non-nuclear ones, but they will give an undeniable advantage.

                      This is unlikely to be an advantage. in any case, for AV of such VI and purpose. Do not forget that their main services will take place in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk and the Barents Sea, and this is not far from their native bases. Well, maybe when he takes a walk to the Norwegian or Sulfur Sea, or from Primorye to the Sea of ​​Japan or to the Chinese for a rendezvous and joint exercises. Their main task is to serve in the SSBN combat deployment areas, to provide air defense, anti-aircraft defense and the stability of the Fleet's surface forces on theater data. And such a task for them for a long time. So why do they need a reactor?
                      Here is another thing to use along with gas turbines, steam turbines and electric transmission. Here THIS will be SAVING fuel and excess steam for both catapults, and for heating the entire ship, and even for deck heating (from icing). And it's also an EXCESS of electricity on board. Power up at least combat lasers (near air defense without the consumption of ammunition), at least electromagnetic catapults ... And fuel consumption is almost TWO times less than with the same power on gas alone.
                      And you won't want any nuclear reactor.
                      But in the case of a program for the construction of really LARGE aircraft carriers - VI of the order of 80 - 000 tons, a nuclear reactor will be quite relevant. Simply because of the scale of the ship and its energy consumption and task-service in the Ocean Zone, far from its native shores. But such an AB will cost approximately the same as an American one, and we will build such an AB for 90 years !! Only ONE, but for 000 whole years ... And why do we need ONE of him? It is necessary to build a SERIES. Then the unit will come out cheaper, and it will be possible to organize services with a change in operational zones, and the industry will make sense of this canoe.
                      But the fact of the matter is that the time of LARGE aircraft carriers is passing! If one (or two - in case of great need) AV / UDK can provide air defense in the far zone and at low altitudes, and thereby ensure the combat stability of the KUG / AUG, then WHY build a BIG one?
                      Well, judge for yourself - one for 10 million dollars. or TWO for 2 million dollars. If the effect is about the same, then why overpay. And two aircraft carrier platforms are always more stable than one. Well, 10 medium ABs are not enough for you, so build yourself a couple more pieces. Yes And we will be happy. bully
                      The fact is that our industry will be quite able to build a fairly large series of such simplified AVs of medium VI without any special technical and technological problems. maintenance and repair of such ships will also not be difficult. But the construction of more complex, and even more overall ... and even do not bring Ahura Mazda (Lord of Reason) - atomic ... Here we will sit in a puddle. This is just too much for our industry. Remember WHAT labors, deadlines and COSTS it cost the USSR to build only FOUR "Orlans"! This should be a lesson to us.
                      And let our competencies in nuclear power plants remain for the Submarine Fleet. We still have to build a series of Borey-K SSGNs. At least 12 pcs. ! And the MAPL series is smaller and cheaper than Ash. Enough work for everyone.
                      Quote: Doccor18
                      Why only 24 cars? Even De Gaulle has 36 in the air group ...

                      It was an overload for De Gaulle, taking into account a fully loaded deck and a full hangar. Yes, and he walked in the warm Mediterranean Sea.
                      In our case, in case of SPECIAL need, it is also possible to take on board a certain number of additional VTOL aircraft, placing them on the deck with a full hangar. but this is only in the case of transporting these extra ones to a remote home airfield. This is what the Americans did in the 70s and 80s, loading a full deck with aircraft, which, after crossing the Atlantic, flew to British airfields and served there as an active reserve.
                      On our "Kyiv" (Minsk, Novorossiysk), never more than 17 VTOL aircraft were taken on board. But on board there were from 14 to 18 helicopters, of which at least 12 were anti-submarine. But our "Krechety" also carried heavy anti-ship missiles on the tank!
                      In our VTOL aircraft, in addition to 24 fighters, at least 4 AWACS helicopters, at least 6 (up to 8) PLO helicopters and 2 PSS helicopters are provided. So much for 36-40 aircraft on board.
                  2. +2
                    6 August 2023 18: 33
                    Quote: bayard
                    That is, ideally, some compilation of both of these programs is possible and desirable.

                    I absolutely agree.
                    Quote: bayard
                    But then the Concept of Building the Fleet should be considered for the perspective of 30 - 40 years

                    How else is it? Only 30-40 years ahead.
                    Quote: bayard
                    Will we build escort ships with nuclear power plants too ??

                    laughing Yeah, nuclear tug ...
                    The non-combat escort is the weak link of the squadron / formation (because they are defenseless, they require the diversion of forces for defense), therefore, the number of such ships is seen to be reduced to a possible minimum, ideally one high-speed (24-26 knots) complex supply ship per squadron / AUG.
                    Quote: bayard
                    The Americans, on the other hand, began to build their nuclear monsters not at all for the sake of fuel economy ...

                    It's clear. But to cite the Americans as an example is not entirely correct, because their capabilities are incommensurably higher: they possessed and still possess a significant auxiliary fleet, they have a wagon and a small cart of allies and hundreds of bases around the world. We don't have any of that. Be that as it may, in addition to the nuclear power plant, it gives an advantage in the autonomy of the ship.
                    Quote: bayard
                    So since escort ships still need fuel, water, technical fluids, etc. supplies ....

                    The needs of an aircraft carrier and frigates are incommensurable ...
                    Quote: bayard
                    this is not to mention the technical difficulties and the danger of radioactive contamination in the event of an accident or destruction of anti-ship missiles.

                    Yes, there is always a risk, but as American tests with an atomic explosion have shown, it is very difficult to fatally damage a large aircraft carrier.
                    1. +3
                      6 August 2023 20: 55
                      Quote: Doccor18
                      Yeah, nuclear tug ...

                      Neighing. good
                      Quote: Doccor18
                      Non-combat escort is the weak link of the squadron / formation (because they are defenseless, they require the diversion of forces for defense)

                      Well, the same sea tug is needed on long passages and in rare services away from home bases. In addition, in the case of such services, all non-combat support ships can periodically come to the rendezvous point and resupply AUGs, and the rest of the time be in readiness in friendly ports or our bases abroad, resupplying for the next round of supply.
                      After all, where are such services supposed to be?
                      I see such in the Horn of Africa and in the Mallak Straits - to ensure the safety of the navigation of my Merchant Fleet. Sometimes such services can take place in the Indian Ocean near the Persian Gulf (reasons are clear). And absolutely, when we shake our strength and the fighting courage goes - the Caribbean Sea.
                      And note - in all these regions there are countries that are friendly to us, ready to accept our support vessels in their harbors, and indeed the AUG ships (especially if the AB is not nuclear bully ) . There is Vietnam and Cam Ranh in the area of ​​the Mallak Straits, Iran and the United Arab Emirates in the Persian Gulf, we will even have a Fleet MTO base in the Red Sea, and we have even more friends in the Caribbean. fellow
                      There would be a Fleet, but there would be friends. wink
                      Quote: Doccor18
                      ideally - one high-speed (24-26 knots) integrated supply ship per squadron / AUG.

                      Then it will have to be made simply huge and on gas turbines (for the sake of speed). It seems to me that, nevertheless, the tanker and the integrated supply ship should be separate units. This will provide some flexibility, and it will be possible to receive fuel and cargo at the same time by different ships. The tugboat, in general, should be on duty in the port of a friendly state, ready to urgently moor on a call.
                      But we are already talking about the organization of services, there can be a lot of nuances here. So, for example, you can attach a fishing trawler to the AUG (especially if it is reinforced or twinned), which will supply the crews of the AUG with fresh fish ... and concurrently conduct marine and electronic intelligence. But again, these are nuances.
                      Quote: Doccor18
                      But to cite the Americans as an example is not entirely correct, because their capabilities are incommensurably higher: they possessed and still possess a significant auxiliary fleet, they have a wagon and a small cart of allies and hundreds of bases around the world. We don't have any of this. Be that as it may, in addition to the nuclear power plant, it gives an advantage in the autonomy of the ship.

                      The fact is that the United States had a dream to transfer most (and all AUGs) to nuclear propulsion. Therefore, they created not only the Enterprise, but also a nuclear cruiser, a nuclear destroyer, and even a nuclear frigate. The latter fell off immediately, the destroyer followed (monstrously expensive, difficult, inflexible, and NOBODY wanted to let these "hunting Hiroshima" into their port), but the cruisers still served ... but how they suffered with them ... and wrote off with great relief. Do not repeat the experience of the enemy, let his rake be their legacy. We and our "Eagles" had enough.
                      Remember the adventures of our exclusively civilian nuclear "Sevmorput", when on the way to Antarctica it broke off its propeller blade and no one let it into the port for repairs ... But it was Africa !!!
                      Our ships should be greeted with Joy ... I would even say - with glee !!
                      Quote: Doccor18
                      Quote: bayard
                      So since escort ships still need fuel, water, technical fluids, etc. supplies ....

                      The needs of an aircraft carrier and frigates are incommensurable ...

                      On the high seas, you will have to supply the entire composition of the AUG
                      AUG, this is not only AB, but also 4 frigates, in DMZ \ OZ, these are "Large frigates" of VI and combat capabilities like destroyers, plus escort ships (these may not be supplied at the same time, but they will have to be supplied) and at least one submarine (SSGN or MAPL). So it will be a lot.
                      Quote: Doccor18
                      a large aircraft carrier is very difficult to fatally damage.

                      Yes, but the American admirals did not want to test this for themselves at all ... and even keep their flag on such nuclear-powered ABs. Then they got used to it.
                      Quote: Doccor18
                      Quote: bayard
                      That is, ideally, some compilation of both of these programs is possible and desirable.

                      I absolutely agree.

                      I meant that the Shipbuilding Program should develop gradually, but incrementally, as the Industry acquires competencies and readiness.
                      In addition, simpler VTOL aircraft are easier, cheaper and FASTER to build - easier and more convenient for Industry, more profitable for the Navy, more useful for Defense.
                      At the second stage - the construction of a couple of non-nuclear aircraft carriers of medium (45 - 000 tons) VI as training and for services in the Sea of ​​​​Okhotsk and the Barents Sea, but long-distance cruises are also possible.
                      The third stage (if it comes and the desire does not disappear) - a series of atomic VI 80 - 000 tons in the amount of 90 pieces. for Pacific Fleet and Northern Fleet. Exclusively for long trips in areas of preventive / forward deployment.
                      It may not reach the third stage, because if you get a taste for it, install a power plant on gas-steam turbopairs (where the gas turbine plays the role of a boiler burner, its hot gases are utilized in the heat exchanger and feed the steam turbine with steam, as in modern thermal power plants) , then ... but what for the button accordion and rattles? I put four M-90FR gas turbines and four steam engines in pairs, and you have 220 l / s on your shafts. And drive your AB at 000 knots as much as you like ... and there will be enough steam for catapults, and electricity.
                      And if gas turbines will have a capacity of 45 or even 000 l / s each (namely, these are now being adjusted for exactly such ships in the Russian Federation) + steam ones for them? This is from 55 to 000 l / s on the shafts !! belay bully It is clear that there will be less on the propellers - the loss on double conversion, but ... WHAT are the prospects when SUCH power is given out with half the fuel consumption ... and as a bonus - an abundance of steam and HEAT on board. In our northern latitudes, and even in winter ... this is especially pleasant.
                      In general, this Concept can be both expanded and deepened ... It's an exciting thing.
                      But the State Will is needed for implementation. When deciding to bring the monetization of the Russian Economy to global standards (in relation to GDP), through such programs it is possible to VERY effectively pump the Economy with liquidity, passing investments through ALL high-tech sectors of the domestic Economy ... and reviving them. This is exactly what the United States did when coming out of crises before ... at the same time, they did not have a liquidity shortage, they simply rocked the Economy through investments in the military-industrial complex. In our case, the risks are orders of magnitude less. We still have to grow and grow to the global norm.
                      But this is me already about the second ... off-budget ... or even extra-budgetary way of financing the Construction of the Fleet.
                      hi
                2. +2
                  6 August 2023 16: 41
                  Quote: Doccor18
                  8. Maintenance of aircraft carriers is not an easy and expensive business. Even space-rich democrats are tired of repairing their 11 mega aircraft carriers, deadlines are constantly missed ... It will also be difficult (if not worse) for our ship repair to provide maintenance for 10 AUGs.

                  So I’m saying that classic AVs on gas turbines (or gas-steam turbopairs) of medium (!) VI are much easier, cheaper, faster to maintain and repair. Therefore, it is not necessary to invent problems for yourself that we may not be able to cope with in the future.
                  Quote: Doccor18
                  9. I believe that 6 classic AUGs (6 aircraft carriers and 24 frigates) are the most preferable option for our country than 10 with UDC. Yes, they will come out more expensive, it will take longer and more difficult to build them, but in this case it is simply necessary.

                  I also thought and think so, provided that in the near future we do not have a VTOL aircraft with the characteristics of a CONVENTIONAL MFI. But if one can appear in the coming years, then Program No. 2 looks much more interesting, more convenient and more advantageous. We will get / start getting the effect from its implementation faster, for the same money we will be able to build and deploy much more AUGs, and a large (!) Batch of ordered, built and put into service VTOL aircraft (300 units, and this is only for the Navy, and ONLY for one's own) will allow them to be operated, maintained, repaired and upgraded normally ... in general, maintaining SUCH a fleet of special machines will be many times easier, more convenient and cheaper than if their series is limited to a few dozen or even one and a half hundred. The fleet of the same type of aircraft is less than 200 pcs. just unprofitable. That is why I, and many others, advocated so much for the continuation of the production of the Su-34, bringing their fleet to 200 - 240 vehicles. The same applies to the Su-35S, Su-30SM \ SM2, and the Su-57 (talking about the construction of 72 such aircraft ... it's just GAME, INCOMPETENCE and WRECKING).
                  Therefore, the BIGGER the series (of a ship or aircraft), the cheaper the unit, the more mature the technology, the higher the reliability, the easier the repair and supply of spare parts and consumables, the training of the personnel, and ... it is MUCH more convenient for the Industry. therefore, I am in favor of building both aircraft and ships, in fairly large (but reasonably large) series of the same type of pieces of equipment.
            2. +2
              5 August 2023 23: 17
              Can Russia now build something like Nimitz/Ford? No.

              He is not needed. UDC is enough. We can.
              But to him - a vertical takeoff and landing aircraft.

              Amers have a lot of UDC. When they completely switch to the F-35B, they will start using them.
              That's how I understood the article, maybe I'm wrong. hi

              They are already training, including at night.

          3. +1
            6 August 2023 15: 02
            I agree,
            the future is for UDC with VTOL aircraft
            our new VTOL TYAZH is on the way with 2 lifting RD-41s for 8 tons and a marching R-579-300 for 22 tons
            vertical takeoff thrust 30 tons, horizontal 15 tons, afterburner 22 tons - power-to-weight ratio is more than 1
            new TYAZH VTOL based on Yak-141 with the introduction of composites up to 30% empty weight 11 tons,
            fuel for 3 hours of flight 5 tons, weapons 4 tons = 20 tons
            Without afterburner speed 1500 km / h, afterburner 2100 km / h, combat radius 1500 km
            for a support fighter KUG 1500 km - just right
            a bomb load of 4 tons is a lot
            4 RVV-SD missiles (700 kg), 4 RMD-2 missiles (450 kg) = 1150 kg
            2 Kh-31AD/PD missiles or 2 Kh-50(Kh-SD) missiles = 1450 kg or 1550 kg
            total: 2,6 / 2,7 tons out of available 4 tons
            we will soon discuss the new Russian IMBA at VO angry
          4. 0
            9 August 2023 17: 12
            The vertical is easier, here, it takes off and sits on the tail in horizontal flight, it flies due to the wings, you can’t imagine a better checkmate
        2. +4
          5 August 2023 21: 36
          Quote: Doccor18
          For the sake of these two obvious phrases, it was not necessary to write an article.

          The author's idea was somewhat different, as it seemed to me. Yes, the states are strong, they only have AVU 11 units, not counting the UDC. But we can build UDC, which is also not very bad. And in the first case, it will fit for solving particular problems. An example of this is China, India, France... Well, this is quite a possible way out. 60-thousanders may well solve the tasks of air defense of the OBK, DesO and others (air support for landing in a landing battle, for example), search for boats in the area, taking on board PLO helicopters, etc.
          And a couple of comments on the article.
          1. The UDC class is not "Attack" (as the author believes), but UNIVERSAL landing ships.
          2. AVU "J.FORD" carries 90 aircraft, it is incorrect to compare it with UDC Wasp. The author apparently wanted to say that ALL UDKs of the UOSP type will make up the Ford-type AVU air wing. But he didn't say that, so it was absurd.
          3. The assertion that an aircraft carrier cannot land troops is incorrect. Maybe, but without heavy weapons. In addition, he has a permanent MP unit, which maintains order and performs the function of military police on the ship.
          Somehow, however. AHA.
    2. +7
      5 August 2023 05: 01
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      to hell with aviation in general

      For combating submarines, for laying minefields, for long-range reconnaissance, for electronic warfare ...
      1. +4
        5 August 2023 08: 27
        Quote: Luminman
        For combating submarines, for laying minefields, for long-range reconnaissance, for electronic warfare ...

        It's all in theory. In practice, our aviation can do nothing. (((We are trying to copy the American model of aviation, but we don’t have that much money ((. As a result, we make several copies of terribly expensive aircraft and are afraid to use them, because they are very expensive.
        And if on the topic, but aircraft carriers of any size are not our topic. We don't have that much money for these ships. The price of a ship should be one of its main characteristics.
        For example, project 22160. Everyone wrote - "dove of peace". And in fact, this is the most demanded project now on the Black Sea. Everything else is either very old or very expensive.
        1. +3
          5 August 2023 12: 12
          For example, project 22160. Everyone wrote - "dove of peace". And in fact, this is the most demanded project now on the Black Sea. Everything else is either very old or very expensive.

          And what can 22160 do that any other ship of the KChF cannot!?)))
          They work only because they are simply in the fleet, why should they stand idle or what? Let them do some good! But all the same, this does not stop making them less flawed and useless ships
          1. +1
            5 August 2023 12: 25
            Quote: Sanguinius
            And what can 22160 do that any other ship of the KChF cannot!?)))

            They just go out to sea. Neither Essen nor Makarov, until the capture of Odessa or the conclusion of a truce, will not go to sea. These are too expensive ships and the risk of losing them outweighs the benefits of them. No one will let them out of Sevastopol. Because everyone understands that when they leave the bay, the Ukrainians will do everything to send them to the bottom or for repairs.
            1. +1
              5 August 2023 12: 40
              That is, in other words, 22160 is not a pity?)
              Although just the same, this project was also not cheap)
              How can they not come out? Come out and out

              Yes, and here they are, your "doves of peace" are both standing, guarding the mooring wall
              1. +2
                5 August 2023 13: 14
                Quote: Sanguinius
                That is, in other words, 22160 is not a pity?)

                Any military equipment is, unfortunately, a consumable. Most of the current tasks of the Black Sea Fleet are routine (escort, surveillance, etc.). For these tasks, the armament of an Admiral Grigorovich-type ship is redundant, and the risk of losing this ship from a missile launched from an aircraft or a naval drone is not at all zero.
                Large universal ships are only good for peacetime parades. Actually, the article is about this, that nondescript small aircraft carriers took the brunt of the war with the Japanese. Unfortunately, the author draws the wrong conclusions from this.
          2. +3
            5 August 2023 21: 49
            Quote: Sanguinius
            from this, it does not stop making them less flawed and useless ships

            You are missing one thing: these are still PATROL ships. Note - patrol. Not missile, not anti-submarine, not frigates / air defense destroyers, like the British Deringi ...
            They will be able to carry the payload in specialized containers. For example, an ELF GAS with a flexible extended towed antenna, or a bunch of drones like Geranium ... They have autonomy for 60 days, who better than them to hang around on the DOZK line ... guarding shipping, controlling communications centers ... For the Black Sea Fleet, with its hemorrhoids from NPA - that will be the most, since there is no other.
            1. 0
              7 August 2023 10: 09
              Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
              You are missing one thing: these are still PATROL ships. Note - patrol. Not missile, not anti-submarine, not frigates / air defense destroyers, like the British Deringi ...

              22160 are border guard ships. They became patrolmen when Chirkov punched through their order for the fleet - and the Navy simply did not find a class in which this miracle could be stuck.
              Well, they don’t have shock capabilities - this is not very necessary for protection. But they also have practically no means of defense. They have no air defense systems, no TA, no RBU, no GAS, no anti-submarine helicopter - nothing. Only one three-inch gun, a couple of machine guns and MANPADS. Oh yeah, and a search and rescue helicopter.
              Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
              They will be able to carry the payload in specialized containers.

              9 years have passed since the order 22160. Where is at least one combat container for them, except for the diving and Minotaur?
              Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
              They have autonomy for as much as 60 days, who better than them to hang around on the DOZK line ... guarding shipping, controlling communication centers ...

              To stick around on the DOZK line, you need at least a self-defense air defense system. Otherwise, it will be a patrol to the first anti-ship missile / ATGM / UAB.
              How are we there at 22160 with air defense systems? Not to offer MANPADS - this is just a way of psychologically reassuring the crew "we have missiles."
              Yes, but what about 22160 with non-radar detection tools? But no way, the GAS at 22160 is purely anti-sabotage, short-range.
        2. +3
          6 August 2023 04: 20
          Quote: ism_ek
          It's all in theory. In practice, our aviation can do nothing.

          Stupidity, especially hysterical and absolutely unprofessional.
          Quote: ism_ek
          We are trying to copy the American model of aviation, but we don't have that much money.

          Again stupidity. How do we "copy" US aviation? Do we have a developed fleet of reconnaissance aircraft? Anti-submarine aviation with the detection of submarines along the water hump by the radar method and with the help of lidars? Or maybe in our combat aviation most of the fleet is represented by LIGHT fighters? Maybe we pay special attention to AWACS aircraft?
          But we definitely cannot spend as much money as they do. And the bet on exceptionally heavy combat vehicles is not from fashion, but from the selfish lobby of Poghosyan and the Sukhoi Design Bureau as a whole. It was they who killed the MiG Design Bureau, prevented the purchase of the latest MiG-35S in the Aerospace Forces ... well, the Manturov gang did their best.
          With a limited budget and only ONE flight school for all VKS (as a result of a lack of pilots), we got a really limited fleet of combat aircraft on extremely heavy vehicles. But at the same time, their potential and combat capabilities are much higher than the fighters of NATO countries, because there is mainly a fleet of light fighters.
          Quote: ism_ek
          we make several copies of terribly expensive aircraft and are afraid to use them, because they are very expensive.

          "Terrible expensive" ??
          This is a Su-34 for 28 million dollars. ??
          Su-30SM for 30 million dollars. ?
          Su-35S for 35 million dollars. ?
          Or maybe the Su-57 for ... 37 billion dollars. ??
          Any of them is even several times cheaper than ANY NATO 4+ generation fighter. Even the ultra-light "Grippen"!
          Quote: ism_ek
          And if on the topic, but aircraft carriers of any size are not our topic. We don't have that much money for these ships. The price of a ship should be one of its main characteristics.

          lol
          You say this to the Country, from which 300+ billion dollars were stolen during the war. reserves, and at the same time she received at least 200 billion dollars in the budget. extra income?
          Look above in the comments, there I calculated the Fleet construction program of as many as 10 (ten) VTOL aircraft carriers with the cost of their construction, the cost of purchasing full air wings for them with a reserve, and a full escort for each of them. And this entire program could cost as little as $75 billion. for 20 - 22 years. On average, 3,5 billion dollars. in year ! The budget of the Russian Federation simply WILL NOT notice such expenses.
          And yes, the price of SUCH a ship (AV \ UDC with a displacement of 40 - 000 tons) will be about 45 billion dollars. in ruble terms. UDCs that are being built in Kerch have a lower price, but they also have slightly less VI.
          Quote: ism_ek
          For example, project 22160. Everyone wrote - "dove of peace". And in fact - this is the most demanded project now on the Black Sea

          Just a patrol. And the control of water areas, the inspection of ships and ensuring the safety of navigation in adjacent water areas, is the task of the patrolmen. Moreover, they have an autonomy of 60 days, so they can hang out at sea for a long time.
          Quote: ism_ek
          Everything else is either very old or very expensive.

          lol in the Black Sea Fleet, of course, there are old ships ... but there are definitely no "expensive" ones. And not a single one. The same frigates, pr. 22356, cost only 17 billion rubles in construction. For comparison, pr. 22160 costs about 10 billion rubles. , but he has almost no weapons and in general he can do almost nothing ... except patrolling.
          1. +2
            6 August 2023 14: 48
            Quote: bayard
            The same frigates, pr. 22356, cost only 17 billion rubles in construction.

            You probably meant 11356.

            Quote: bayard
            For comparison, pr. 22160 costs about 10 billion rubles.

            And that's a lot for a ship that
            Quote: bayard
            almost nothing can...

            We need simple and reliable corvettes, not diamond patrolmen ...
            1. 0
              7 August 2023 01: 02
              Quote: Doccor18
              Quote: bayard
              The same frigates, pr. 22356, cost only 17 billion rubles in construction.

              You probably meant 11356.

              Well, of course - the wrong numbers were printed, but I didn’t check.
              Quote: Doccor18

              Quote: bayard
              For comparison, pr. 22160 costs about 10 billion rubles.

              And that's a lot for a ship that

              Of course, there are many, SO MANY copies of this have been broken and arguments have been given (that it was possible to build 7-8 "Karakurt" with this money - instead of six patrol freaks), that it is simply a sin to repeat.
              But now it has fallen to them to serve the Fatherland, maybe even a tuft of wool from a black sheep ... Or they can (in principle) also work with mine transports. But so far, such tasks are apparently not worth it.
              What is built is what it is.
    3. 0
      5 August 2023 11: 26
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      Delivered this device to the attack area by submarine or dry cargo ship and attack the enemy

      But:
      1. How is this most "delivered"? In an area where there are no restrictions on navigation (as we have now), it was delivered by any civil ship + control (or a repeater there) from it. What if there are restrictions?
      2. What are the statistics? Now only 2 successful (more or less) attacks out of how many?
      3. And most importantly: a torpedo with a huge range will not replace aviation. These are different instruments.
      1. -1
        5 August 2023 12: 14
        Quote: Blackgrifon
        What statistics? Now only 2 successful (more or less) attacks out of how many?

        The result of the attacks is that our fleet is locked in Sevastopol, and does not fulfill the tasks assigned to it.
        1. +2
          5 August 2023 13: 13
          The fleet itself locked itself in Sevastopol even before the boats, and it seems unable to fulfill its tasks. Perhaps the grandiose plan of the General Staff, which was developed over the years, included only receiving flowers from local residents, because the ships did not come up with any plans other than supplying the garrison on Zmeiny
          1. +1
            5 August 2023 14: 25
            If the fleet is locked in Sevastopol, then why is there no Odessa-Bosphorus traffic?)))
          2. +1
            5 August 2023 15: 36
            So we can say that the fleet in the Black Sea is not needed at all, except for border guards. Because:
            1) exit from the World Cup is too easily and simply locked by a NATO member country, an enemy military organization. And this is absolutely normal and logical. The passage is not ours, which means we can't do anything.
            2) Missiles and planes from the Crimea are able to control the entire Black Sea if desired. The more aviation and air defense of Crimea, the better.
            All the same is true for the Baltic Fleet. It is locked by the NATO countries, which, in which case, will tightly mine all the exits.
            But we have the Pacific Fleet, which cannot be compared with the Japanese or Korean fleets. He really misses the ships.
            That is, submarines and ships are only able to exit from the north and east.
            1. 0
              5 August 2023 17: 24
              Turkey has been in NATO almost since the creation of the alliance, and there has always been a Mediterranean squadron, which was recruited mainly at the expense of the KChF, after the collapse of the Union, the presence of Russian ships in the Mediterranean continues.
          3. +2
            5 August 2023 15: 48
            or maybe you can enlighten. what is Russia’s strategy at sea in general .. why do we need a fleet and if we need what kind ??? .. otherwise we only build nuclear submarines and RTOs ... but TAVKR Kuzya is a sufferer for us TARKR Kirov (aka Peter_candidate for scrap metal) is needed, and if so, then it’s clear why .. our glorious (and this is without a bullshit) Black Sea Fleet in the NVO was marked by Caliber launches (everything else, like drifting off the coast of Odessa, a BDK with pasans or an epic with Zmein, nothing but mat not ...) but all this can be done by aviation .. and the fleet is it that .. for the sake of substantiating that abyss of admirals and cap-razes that dug in in Sevastopol ??? ... can you explain once_two ... plizz
            1. +3
              5 August 2023 22: 07
              At this stage, the fleet is entrusted with tasks that it can cope with - to ensure, in a threatened period, an exit from the SSBN bases. However, this is not critical, our strategists can shoot back from the surface position, right from the pier, just the effect will be a little different.
        2. +6
          5 August 2023 21: 59
          Quote: ism_ek
          our fleet is locked in Sevastopol, and does not fulfill the tasks assigned to it.

          Quote from alexoff
          ships did not come up with any plans other than supplying the garrison on Zmein

          then one immodest question: who inflicts ROCKET strikes with Caliber and Onyx on coastal facilities and in the depths of Banderstan?
          Or do you think that since the new Tsushima did not happen, then there is no fleet. Again, the aviation of the Black Sea Fleet is very actively working ...
          1. 0
            7 August 2023 10: 24
            Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
            then one immodest question: who inflicts ROCKET strikes with Caliber and Onyx on coastal facilities and in the depths of Banderstan?

            In general, the fleet decided once again to reclassify the ships into gunboats.
            But here's the thing - it used to be that in order to process the coast outside 20 km from the front line, it was necessary to put a cannon on the ship and bring it to the shore. Now the same tasks can be solved without ships - RBR with universal BR/KR launchers will cost less, and the radius will be larger (taking into account the possibility of basing along the entire front line).
            Therefore, the question arises - is it necessary to build ships, the tasks of which are solved by the RBR from somewhere on the coast of the Karkinitsky Gulf?
        3. 0
          10 August 2023 16: 57
          Quote: ism_ek
          The result of the attacks is that our fleet is locked in Sevastopol, and does not fulfill the tasks assigned to it.

          And where did he lock himself up?
          Does not comply - did Shoigu personally report this to you?
          And what then, constantly launches Onyxes and Calibers of the Black Sea Fleet? The corvettes that patrol there don't exist either? Strange, but for some reason the Khinzirs are trying to attack them.
      2. -6
        5 August 2023 13: 00
        Quote: Blackgrifon
        But:
        1. How is this most "delivered"? In an area where there are no restrictions for shipping (as we have now), it was delivered by any

        etc.
        Yes, crap all that you wrote in your counterarguments. Except that they probably (?) play a role purely in the ship / ship vs ship / ship battle. And what prevents under the flag of Africa, but at least green / pink / purple crap to send container ships with KUBs and stupidly put such a galosh as AB to the bottom or a little less? Have you thought about this question? Or are our eggheads a priori dumber than the whole world and cannot shove a semblance of zircon into the KUB, from which, by the way, mattresses still change diapers periodically?
        1. 0
          10 August 2023 17: 04
          Quote: kot423
          Yes, crap all that you wrote in your counterarguments. Except that they probably (?) play a role purely in the ship / ship vs ship / ship battle. And what prevents under the flag of Africa, but at least green / pink / purple crap to send container ships with KUBs and stupidly put such a galosh as AB to the bottom or a little less?

          There is such a thing as a warrant. And there is another such thing as missile defense.

          Quote: kot423
          is it stupid to put such a galosh as AB to the bottom, or a little less?

          After all, there were fools and expected that against one AUG with AB it was necessary to throw up to the regiment of missile carriers with other vehicles. But they could have sunk AB with one auxiliary container cruiser. If that's sarcasm.

          AB does NOT walk alone, other ships cover it, forming a warrant with a powerful missile defense system. More or less chances for a sudden fatal blow are given either by Zircons (now, with target designation) or an artillery cruiser, which almost point-blank tried to accompany the AUGs (despite the fact that if it started, the cruiser might have poked the AB deck, but he would have died.
        2. 0
          10 August 2023 21: 12
          Quote: kot423
          counterarguments

          In fairness, but there are examples when an auxiliary cruiser under a false flag entered into battle with a full-fledged cruiser - the Australians will not let you lie.
          But this is exactly what a 1 on 1 fight.

          In addition, since tsarist times (and in the Soviet years too), we have had the idea of ​​​​acting under a false flag or stopping for inspection of a neutral - this is TABOO (in the first case) and an emergency (in the second).

          But the Anglo-Saxons, after the first information (even if false) about the creation of an auxiliary cruiser for raiding or missile attacks on the AUG, will slow down any oncoming ship by any means.

          And so, as a person with land-based thinking, I don’t see a problem for the fleet to take on a high-speed tanker project, put modern radars on it, Pantsir or Tor air defense systems, a pair of twin 630 and container launchers for 100 geraniums. But such a ship, in order to be effective, must operate as part of a group of full-fledged ships - corvettes or frigates.
    4. 0
      5 August 2023 13: 10
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      The UDC is also vulnerable to attacks from both the sea and the air ... if a whole swarm of surface, underwater, flying drones attack the target from different sides, it will be very difficult to fight back.

      This is if the team is sleeping, and the command of the fleet is insane and untrained. Aviation will notice all these naval drones 50 km away and shoot them with air cannons at distant lines, or at least they will give an alarm so that the team gets up to anti-aircraft artillery.
      1. 0
        5 August 2023 17: 25
        If everything was so simple, but there are many but)))
  2. Eug
    +5
    5 August 2023 04: 56
    As for drones, I suspect that they are so effective in relatively peacetime due to the normal functioning of GPS and the like, without this everything will be much more modest. In general, the author was surprised - why oppose UDC and "large" aircraft carriers? It is much better to unite .. for some tasks, the UDC is more effective, for others, the presence of a "big brother" is necessary .. but jointly in general .. it would be interesting to read how China is doing with the landing fleet.
    1. +3
      5 August 2023 14: 54
      Quote: Eug
      On drones - I suspect that they are so effective in relatively peacetime
      Our SVO is hardly a criterion for a correct assessment of the effectiveness of drones, the need or uselessness of aviation itself, especially the role of the fleet (aircraft carriers).
      It is not in vain that the SVO suggests itself in decoding as a "strange military operation", behind which are the selfish interests of the oligarchs, the need to raise the sagging rating of power. To this, under loud words, the arsenals of Russia are being devastated, the country is being bled to death by a protracted war.
      Well, you can’t get stronger from this, and it’s hard to understand, waging costly hostilities, how unemployment can be reduced, welfare increased, and the well-being of the country as a whole can grow. Ammunition per day leaves by trains, and despite the fact that there are "one and a half" plants left for their reproduction, the conclusion involuntarily suggests itself that the remaining Soviet potential, the Soviet margin of safety, is being destroyed here. How is it even possible that they wipe their feet on a nuclear power, endlessly deceive the president, encircling Russia from all sides, and the country that is the only one in the world that can guarantee the destruction of the United States has been at war with Ukraine for more than a year, and cannot do anything radically!... It is not surprising that behind all this "war" there are agreements, the interests of moneybags.
      All the successes of drones, this is a consequence of an artificially created positional impasse, in a real large-scale war, the role of quadcopter toys will be much less, and the role of large aircraft will be much greater. The same can be said about the role of the fleet, and the role of aircraft carriers, which are primarily carriers of aviation, as one of the most effective weapons, for any part of the oceans. Unfortunately, the persecution that the aircraft carrier fleet underwent after the collapse of the USSR largely characterizes who ordered this "music" in the media, and who zealously feared the strengthening of the Russian fleet.
      A full-fledged fleet is unthinkable without aviation at sea, not only basic, but also deck, for which aircraft carriers are needed. Otherwise, all criticism of the aircraft carrier is from the category of Krylov's fable about the fox and grapes, and the corrupt stupidity of those who call Russia a "land country", for which the fleet of the littoral zone is sufficient.
  3. +6
    5 August 2023 04: 58
    Now, for dispersal, I will give you a seditious thought in general: it was not aircraft carriers who won the war at sea for the United States and Japan

    The idea is actually seditious. It was thanks to aircraft carriers that the turning point in the war began in favor of the Americans. It was thanks to aircraft carriers that the Americans controlled the vast territory of the Pacific Ocean, preventing the Japanese from even sticking their nose out. Without aircraft carriers, there would have been no successful landing operations on the islands.

    Another thing is whether aircraft carriers are needed in our time - the time of cruise missiles and actively developing drones?
    1. +6
      5 August 2023 06: 00
      Quote: Luminman
      Another thing is whether aircraft carriers are needed in our time - the time of cruise missiles and actively developing drones?

      And where will we launch the KR / UAV from?
      1. Only from the shore? So we will hand over the initiative in the seas / oceans to the enemy who has a Fleet.
      2. From ships? So you need to build carriers of the KR / UAVs and an escort, and the result will be ... the same AUG.
      1. -3
        5 August 2023 06: 37
        Quote: Doccor18
        And where will we launch the KR / UAV from?

        From ordinary already existing surface ships

        Quote: Doccor18
        and the result will be ... the same AUG.

        It will turn out much cheaper and will not be such a big and attractive target as the AUG ...
    2. +4
      5 August 2023 13: 17
      Quote: Luminman
      Another thing is whether aircraft carriers are needed in our time - the time of cruise missiles and actively developing drones?

      Cruise missiles are clearly visible from fighters covering aircraft carriers and AWACS aircraft, for 300 kilometers they can be seen and shot down. And then send your aircraft to look for who is so brave there. You can put so many CRs in the AUG that not a single Nakhimov could even dream of.
      1. +1
        5 August 2023 22: 29
        Quote from alexoff
        Cruise missiles are clearly visible from fighters covering aircraft carriers and AWACS aircraft,

        So it is so ... Yes, but there are different CRs: there are, for example, subtle ones, there are hypersonic ones. And then there is electronic warfare and targeted interference with detection equipment and firing stations.
        So, not all that glitters is gold. Just as not all missiles can be detected and shot down by shipborne AIAs in a timely manner.
    3. +2
      5 August 2023 22: 09
      This idea is not at all seditious, many believe that the war was won by American designers - engineers, highly skilled workers and construction battalions of the fleet)))
      1. +1
        7 August 2023 10: 35
        Quote: TermNachTER
        This idea is not at all seditious, many believe that the war was won by American designers - engineers, highly skilled workers and construction battalions of the fleet)))

        Roughly speaking, American industry won the war. The "strategy of attrition" in all its glory: the peacetime armed forces, burning down, gain time to mobilize the military industry, and then it throws iron at the enemy. smile
        In general, the war in the Pacific is a classic example of how seemingly peaceful decisions for the rear could change the entire course of hostilities.
        Let me explain: bases are needed for a war in the ocean. But not just bases, but equipped ones - with airfields, warehouses, docks, mooring walls, etc. For before the war, all that ships outside the base could get was fuel. Even the loading of ammunition had to be carried out at the base.
        Therefore, before the war, all participants strengthened their bases as much as possible, assuming that the main databases would be deployed for them - there is no offensive without supplies. And then the American industry pulled itself up - and issued a modular advanced base. And in pair with her, the ship industry issued a set of ships of the floating rear. And that's it, the Americans no longer needed to fight head-on in the fortifications of the same Rabaul or Truk - after all, now a full-fledged forward base could be equipped in any suitable harbor. And no one had to cover all the potential places of basing forces. As a result, the US offensive on TO was reduced to knocking out secondary garrisons from unequipped atolls with good harbors. And the pre-war fortified IJN bases were cleared from the air and blocked by small forces, turning into "armed prisoner of war camps."
        1. 0
          7 August 2023 11: 39
          Quote: Alexey RA
          And that's it, the Americans no longer needed to beat their foreheads in fortifications

          Yes, the genius of Nimitz and the navy in general - they found a way to translate industrial power into military power. Which is not so easy, even if the industrial power is available. The aviators' research on this topic ended in what is known, yesterday was just an anniversary. The surveys of the land explorers did not end and did not even begin very well.
        2. 0
          7 August 2023 18: 21
          I agree with you about what happened then, but now the United States does not have that industry, in the equivalent - of course.
  4. +4
    5 August 2023 05: 25
    In the new approach of the author, he saw confirmation of his convictions: the fleet, like the army, needs a wide range of technical tools (taking into account rationality in the economy).
    However, through the prism of the native military-industrial complex and fleet, one sees:
    1. With the defensive doctrine of the Russian Federation, this set of tools for the Russian navy in any case should be narrower than for the hegemon of the ocean.
    2. The tools of the de facto defensive doctrine (RF) should more complex the technology of the fleet, air force and air defense than with a conditionally defensive one (NATO).
    3. With all my personal rejection of the presence of an airborne - 063 in the fleet, after reading the article, I’m still inclined .. that he also has a place in the medium term future, for example, as a technology demonstrator (when using UAVs), a conscious focuser of someone else’s intelligence, etc.

    The "seditious" view of the author is not sedition, it is history + a new campaign and foresight. Good!
  5. -1
    5 August 2023 05: 26
    That is, if the aircraft carrier is evil, but there is not enough evil, you can take the UDC. It definitely won't get worse.

    But it won't get better either.
    We again analyze the problem about the elephant and the whale. And the concepts of UAV carriers for various purposes are already being developed, and any carrier approaching the coast (or standing in neutral waters) capable of releasing several hundred (thousand) kamikaze drones can be much more dangerous.
    In addition, back in the days of the USSR, means of destroying aircraft carriers were developed along with an escort group. So, easily, in the open ocean ... And hypersonic weapons make the existence of all these super-duper carriers very problematic.
    On the whole, this is a small hint that some Israeli-Turkish ships are roaming the Black Sea, and hammers do not knock in Kerch ...

    And in Kerch or somewhere else they will not knock hammers, because private owners are not provided with benefits, and only Soviet people worked for free on Subbotniks, Sundays and on their own initiative.
    * * *
    But what a parade in honor of Navy Day was held in different cities (in St. Petersburg in particular) ... They showed the world how dust flies in the eyes ...
    1. -5
      5 August 2023 06: 19
      Showed the world how dust flies in the eyes ...

      And five days later they received a flick on the nose from a "street hooligan"... That's the whole point of "Papuan" geopolitics...
  6. -3
    5 August 2023 05: 32
    Explanatory article. But one must understand that China has developed and produced ballistic missiles with guidance in the final phase of the flight at a moving target such as an aircraft carrier. And in the Soviet Union there was such a missile, but it was not adopted for service. In past exercises, China could have demonstrated this missile by sinking some old dry cargo ship on the move. And then let the Americans scratch their turnips looking at their aircraft carriers. soldier
    1. +4
      5 August 2023 08: 35
      Quote: V.
      Explanatory article. But one must understand that China has developed and produced ballistic missiles with guidance in the final phase of the flight at a moving target such as an aircraft carrier. And in the Soviet Union there was such a missile, but it was not adopted for service. In past exercises, China could have demonstrated this missile by sinking some old dry cargo ship on the move. And then let the Americans scratch their turnips looking at their aircraft carriers. soldier

      If China could demonstrate the defeat of moving ships with "ballistics", it would demonstrate it.
    2. +5
      5 August 2023 11: 04
      And why are they scratching their turnips? In your opinion, in the event of a hypothetical anti-ship missile attack on an American aircraft carrier / UDC, its crew will do .... nothing ???
      Or do you think a set of measures to prevent anti-ship missiles from entering the Ship was invented only by us?
  7. -4
    5 August 2023 05: 49
    Aircraft carriers and udk are for sovereign and wealthy countries (there are 3 of them in total), but we need to "rivet" marine drones, but apparently you can't cut billions on them and you can't fit an admiral's cabin ...
  8. KCA
    -4
    5 August 2023 06: 24
    Here, specifically, where can AUGs threaten Russia? Only in the Pacific Ocean, what is the combat radius of carrier-based aircraft? 600km? Well, they just fall under the Ball missile defense system, it’s clear that the Onyx and even the Zircon won’t drown an aircraft carrier with one hit, but they may well disrupt aircraft flights, or even force them to stop the course, but everything that’s standing will fly, what is, accompanying destroyers from the CD are more dangerous
    1. +5
      5 August 2023 07: 09
      And where will you shoot anti-ship missiles? The aircraft carrier is certainly large, but how do you determine its location?
      1. KCA
        -10
        5 August 2023 08: 40
        The exit of the AUG from the place of deployment cannot be determined in any way? This is not a motor boat to send for fishing, we may not have many tracking satellites, although who will tell, all satellites have a dual purpose, but a dozen ships with AB at the head can only sleep or drink, we also have MAPL, but what they see and hear no one to anyone either, and the submariners have enough surprises, for example, when the nuclear submarine surfaced in the US territorial waters, it’s so simple, for the sake of courage
        1. +5
          5 August 2023 11: 37
          Quote: KCA
          The exit of the AUG from the place of deployment cannot be determined in any way?
          In the 80s (still under the USSR), they slept through the testing of AUG strikes in our Far East. And then everything was there: the ships, and the Tu-95RTs and so on.
        2. +1
          7 August 2023 10: 46
          Quote: KCA
          The exit of the AUG from the place of deployment cannot be determined in any way? This is not a motor boat to send for fishing, we may not have many tracking satellites, although who will tell, all satellites have a dual purpose, but a dozen ships with AB at the head can only sleep or drink

          Hehehehe ... that's just about the Pacific Ocean is better not to remember. In 1982, at the peak of the Cold War, during the Flitex-82 exercise (that is, when our forces should have been at full readiness), the USSR with all its satellites, reconnaissance and patrol aircraft, Charlie-Charlie-Bravo , coastal posts of the RTR and others discovered the aircraft carrier "Midway" only when it reached the strike range at Vilyuchinsk - the base of the Pacific Fleet SSBN.
          The results of radio direction showed that the newly formed aircraft carrier strike force (Enterprise and Midway), consisting of more than 30 ships, maneuvers 300 miles southeast of Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky and conducts carrier-based aircraft flights at a distance of 150 km from our coast.

          And after that, the AUG was again lost - and the hastily organized demonstrative flight of the MRA fell into the void.
    2. +2
      5 August 2023 12: 00
      And what is the range of aircraft carriers, in addition to their carrier-based aircraft? Or are you going to use aircraft carriers along the coast and nothing else?
      1. KCA
        0
        6 August 2023 08: 10
        The range is not the range of use, the course can be 20 km or more, but the use of aircraft or air defense systems is just 000 km for everything?
        1. +3
          6 August 2023 10: 47
          So this is the essence of an aircraft carrier. He can move the defense lines away from his shores and the same carrier-based aircraft with these same Onyxes under the wing, with a conditional combat radius of 600 km, can operate somewhere 1000 km from the Kuril ridge in the Pacific Ocean
        2. +2
          6 August 2023 15: 02
          Quote: KCA
          The range is not the range of use, the course can be 20 km or more, but the use of aircraft or air defense systems is just 000 km for everything?

          The combat radius of a modern carrier-based fighter is from 750 to 1200 km., Let's also add the flight range of the air-based missile launcher and get from a thousand to two thousand km. - this is the long arm of an aircraft carrier. To hit a moving ship at such a distance (even with the modern development of satellite technology) is an extremely difficult task ...
  9. +3
    5 August 2023 06: 41
    Any weapon, incl. and aircraft carriers with UDC are needed to solve specific military tasks. The US needs them to demonstrate power around the world.
    France has overseas territories, for the protection of which their "De Gaulle" may be needed (if, of course, it sails to there)
    The Chinese need aircraft carriers for Taiwan and the disputed islands.
    The Spaniards need their UDC only as an advertisement for their shipbuilding industry.
    Do I need an aircraft carrier and UDC of Russia - I don’t know. I do not know the tasks that they must solve, except for the "flag demonstration"
    1. +9
      5 August 2023 07: 40
      And I will add. A full-fledged footage is needed to ensure the navigation of your country. The same can be seen in maritime countries. They depend on merchant and fishing fleets. We have such a fleet of minuscule. Therefore, the Navy has always been in the pen. There were no real challenges. Only counteraction to foreign fleets. That is, immediately flawed defensive position. And often our fleet came to naught precisely for this reason - no one could justify its existence by the presence of tasks.
      Therefore, one can argue until hoarse about aircraft carriers, UDC ... But there are tasks for them ... today there are, tomorrow there are none.
      1. +3
        5 August 2023 13: 22
        Well, in general, almost half of our exports and imports go by sea. But here the question immediately arises - with whom will we trade in the event of a war with the United States, if now we trade mainly with their allies?
  10. +3
    5 August 2023 07: 35
    For me, it's far-fetched. UDC is not an analogue of an escort.
    And the fleet did not order escort aircraft carriers. They were offered by the industry. And Roosevelt agreed and then simply ordered the Navy to take them. In this case, he turned out to be much more far-sighted than the military.
  11. -3
    5 August 2023 08: 06
    They have air bases, well, if you close the sky, then no one will fly there. The real war with US aviation is air defense systems, in Russia they need to be developed, for example, even scattering them around our country in large numbers, when kneading, simply moving these air defenses to the territory of hostilities.
    In the USSR, the army was 5 million people and was always on alert, two years of service under the contract and these are only young fighters. And now there are no young and trained, old men under contract go into battle
    We need an army of up to 5 million people, and so that they don’t do nonsense, what kind of wool, but actually undergo training or test weapons and accuracy.
    We need parts in which the preparation of military equipment would go. It is working directly with customers.
    The army in peacetime must be developed from institutes for the development of combat equipment.
    1. KCA
      +5
      5 August 2023 08: 48
      There was no contract service in the USSR, there were over-conscripts, contracts were introduced after the collapse of the Union, and there are those who are trained and fight, but eat meat, like hlov, in a year and a half, usually, a soldier begins to understand what and how, but before this go dig out of here and before lunch
      1. +4
        5 August 2023 19: 01
        Well, in general, the soldier is the same person as everywhere else. If he is engaged in combat training, then in half a year he will be good, and in a year everything will be super. And if, he digs, cleans and stands in outfits, then there will be zero sense for 2. Unless he becomes evil as hell, which, in general, is also not bad. He will also be able to run, etc. It's war now, and no one has a year to prepare.
  12. -1
    5 August 2023 08: 18
    Again a theory and a set of good wishes))) firstly, mattress covers have less UDC than they want. And if Congress allows it to be written off, those old "icelands" that the ILC wants to write off will become even smaller. Secondly, a "penguin" without a catapult or springboard carries a very small combat load, because the fuel consumption is very high while hovering. That is, even the UDP air group increased to 20 "penguins", even approximately cannot replace a normal air group, a normal aircraft carrier)))
    1. +3
      5 August 2023 11: 51
      Quote: TermNachTER
      Again a theory and a set of good wishes))) firstly, mattress covers have less UDC than they want. And if Congress allows it to be written off, those old "icelands" that the ILC wants to write off will become even smaller. Secondly, a "penguin" without a catapult or springboard carries a very small combat load, because the fuel consumption is very high while hovering. That is, even the UDP air group increased to 20 "penguins", even approximately cannot replace a normal air group, a normal aircraft carrier)))

      It carries very little during vertical takeoff, and there on the UDC it has more than two hundred meters for a takeoff run.
      1. 0
        5 August 2023 14: 26
        Go to Wikipedia and read how much run and run the "penguin" has.
        1. 0
          5 August 2023 16: 55
          Quote: TermNachTER
          Go to Wikipedia and read how much run and run the "penguin" has.

          From zero. winked
          1. 0
            5 August 2023 17: 29
            Well, if I’m too lazy to explain to you on my fingers))) for a horizontal take-off, the “penguin” needs a catapult, even the length of the “Ford” is not enough, there is not even a question about the “stub” of the UDC. For landing you need an aerofinisher. There is neither one nor the other at UDC and never will be.
            1. 0
              6 August 2023 08: 43
              Quote: TermNachTER
              Well, if I’m too lazy to explain to you on my fingers))) for a horizontal take-off, the “penguin” needs a catapult, even the length of the “Ford” is not enough, there is not even a question about the “stub” of the UDC. For landing you need an aerofinisher. There is neither one nor the other at UDC and never will be.

              You just don't get it. There is no choice either full vertical or full horizontal. The aircraft can choose any takeoff run distance from zero to full. The longer the length, the greater the maximum takeoff weight. It's simple
              1. 0
                7 August 2023 18: 24
                Simple, but not very))) with a vertical take-off, the "penguin" will take a maximum of four missiles and that's it, that is, nothing. However, this problem has been known since the time of the Yak-38 and the Harrier, and why they again decided to step on the same rake is absolutely incomprehensible. But you can wish their creative Uzbeks))
    2. +4
      5 August 2023 12: 05
      So the point is not to "replace" a normal air group and a normal aircraft carrier, but only to supplement and increase the number of aircraft carriers in the fleet. At sea, it is much better to have at least some kind of aviation than not to have it at all, since the fact that the F-35B is not as squalid as the Yak-38 was in its time is already good ... good for the Americans.
      1. -1
        5 August 2023 14: 28
        Between Yak - 38 and F - 35, forty years of design development and technology improvement. Harier you do not consider squalor? What are the differences between them?
        1. +1
          5 August 2023 22: 06
          From the fact that there is a forty-year difference between Yakovlev's car and the "penguin", does the Yak-38 cease to be squalor because of this fact?
          Why do I need this Harier, if I compare the F-35 with the Yak, with the only serial domestic VTOL development?
          1. 0
            6 August 2023 08: 13
            Because the Yak - 38 and Harrier are the same age, and the F - 35 is a much later and very expensive product. It is still too early to talk about any high efficiency of the "penguin", since he did not participate in any serious battles.
            1. 0
              6 August 2023 11: 00
              So I'm not saying that the F-35 is some kind of "ubermega-efficient" aircraft. Why didn't you participate? And Israel was based on its F-35Is, which are periodically bombed by the SAR? Yes, I know you will say in response that this is not a high-intensity conflict like the war in Ukraine, BUT if you judge, because in fact now the airstrike is launched from outside the air defense umbrella after careful reconnaissance of targets. And that's what the penguin does well, that's what it was made for. So in terms of VTOL aircraft, this is the best there is, and the fact that it can deliver air strikes, with the entire range of ASPs against enemy targets, is worth a lot!
              In a dialogue with BlackMokona, you said that the penguin needs a catapult for horizontal takeoff ... but sorry, above the user posted a video of the US nighttime exercises with the F-35B horizontal takeoff from the Amer UDC, so what's wrong?
              1. 0
                7 August 2023 18: 27
                I have already said a million and once that Israel is not an indicator. The flight of one "penguin" is provided by a bunch of aircraft, ground-based radars, RER, EW + satellite and undercover intelligence and much more. In a real war - this is not real)))
    3. +1
      6 August 2023 15: 08
      Quote: TermNachTER
      penguin" without a catapult or springboard, carries a very small combat load, because the "hover" fuel consumption is very high. That is, even the UDP air group increased to 20 "penguins", even approximately cannot replace a normal air group, a normal aircraft carrier)) )

      Commentary-memo for all fans to try to solve the tasks of an aircraft carrier by other means ...
      1. 0
        7 August 2023 10: 58
        Quote: Doccor18
        Commentary-memo for all fans to try to solve the tasks of an aircraft carrier by other means ...

        There should be one more reminder: there is no AWACS aircraft without a catapult. And without AWACS, an aircraft carrier is a target.
        An attempt to replace the carrier-based AWACS aircraft with helicopters, taking into account the need to carry out round-the-clock duty (on USN AB is provided by 4 "Hokays"), will lead to the fact that half of the AB air group will be from AWACS helicopters. smile
      2. 0
        7 August 2023 18: 28
        This memo, godochkov, is already 50 years old))) but there are creative individuals with a fruitful idea - to jump on an old rake)))
  13. The comment was deleted.
  14. +3
    5 August 2023 08: 59
    The author does not understand the very concept of high-speed aircraft carrier formations. The main thing in them is mobility and concentration. Having excellent tactical and strategic mobility, high-speed aircraft carrier formations could impose their initiative on the enemy by stretching his forces with strikes in different places. And it doesn't matter how many of your aircraft carriers carry planes if they don't make it to the battlefield in time.
  15. -18
    5 August 2023 09: 03
    All power to the Soviets!

    Quote: R. Skomorokhov
    The US has more aircraft carriers than you think. ..

    As usual. If not nasty things about Russia and our army, then praising our enemies ...
    Fuck you, one more time.

    Quote: R. Skomorokhov
    the US carrier fleet would be over 20 ships.

    If yes, if only. I assure you, we have enough daggers for everyone and more.

    From all this rusty iron, on the move, another pair will pick up on the strength, and taking into account the problems with the printing press, the remaining ones will very soon be attached to the wall.
    1. +4
      5 August 2023 19: 03
      It’s like a joke here: “Russia is never as strong as it seems from the inside, and it is never as weak as it seems from the outside” (C). Who said I don't remember. You can laugh at your enemies as much as you like, but hatred has brought us and is bringing great troubles.
  16. +5
    5 August 2023 09: 04
    In the first place, the cost of construction, it depends on labor productivity. During WWII, US shipbuilders produced one Liberty-class vessel per day. If you build it like that, then it makes sense in auxiliary aircraft carriers.
  17. 0
    5 August 2023 09: 42
    Paper is patient. But the welders from Nikolaev (those who assembled all the aircraft carriers of the USSR) left the Sevmash enterprise a long time ago and dumped them in the USA, where a new fleet building program is being implemented.
    And in the Gulf in Kerch, it is necessary to sculpt not bad all-purpose ships at the behest of the Tatar "Ak Bars", but universal ships designed by the Rybinsk design bureau "Vympel" - bulk carriers, tankers, killers ... Otherwise, Syria is supplied on old purchased Turkish steamships.
    1. 0
      5 August 2023 17: 31
      Those Nikolaev welders who assembled TAVKR are already retired))) you know, their work is harmful, and the "grid" is hot)))
  18. 0
    5 August 2023 10: 11
    This unit is evil for those who do not have it, but it's just expensive and from which side to look.
  19. +6
    5 August 2023 11: 27
    A good article that competently and intelligibly reminded people that the Americans did not have 11 aircraft carriers.
    But I want to add the author! Not only do they have a lot of UDCs that, if necessary, will be able to perform the tasks of an escort aircraft carrier. Also, as we know, the Americans do not prefer to fight alone, they like to organize coalitions (and without any irony, this is a sound strategic approach).
    And if necessary, in addition to their fleet, they can invite the Allied fleet. And they also have both aircraft carriers and UDC. Namely:
    Japan - 4 destroyer helicopter carriers (which, due to the length and width of their deck, are capable of receiving F-35)
    United Kingdom - 2 aircraft carriers
    Australia - 3 UDC
    Italy - 2 aircraft carriers and 3 helicopter landing ships
    Spain - 1 UDC
    Türkiye - 1 UDC (1 more is planned)
    France - 1 aircraft carrier and 3 UDC "Mistral"
    Germany - there are no aircraft carriers and UDC, but at the same time, their fleet has many large tankers, support vessels of the Berlin, Elbe and Rhön types, from which light ersatz aircraft carriers can quickly be made
    In general - in which case they can afford to organize a huge aviation fleet.
    1. +3
      5 August 2023 11: 51
      The ability to sit on deck and take off is not yet an aircraft carrier))) there are a lot of small details - in which the devil is hiding)) the British understood this and instead of "invincibles", they built almost normal aircraft carriers)))
  20. +1
    5 August 2023 11: 49
    in the case of any world-scale batch, these are 11 airfields, advanced to an arbitrarily large distance from the US coast
    If the batch is not organized by them, then you will be lucky if at least 4 aviks can go somewhere.
    That is, these cheap things, which were rebuilt from bulk carriers, could carry as many aircraft as "clean" "real" strike aircraft carriers carried.
    They could carry it, but it's unlikely to convey it. Their survivability under bombs is incomparably lower. The composition of the air group is imprisoned for the fight against submarines. There is not enough fuel for constant duty in the air of fighter cover, etc. No wonder all this trifle was written off immediately after the war, and heavy aircraft carriers were on duty almost until the 70s.
    But if only 6 SH-60F anti-submarine helicopters are left, then the number of F-35B miraculously increases to 20.
    Well, that's not a fact at all. The place will be vacated - yes.
    And five UDCs, having approximately the same number of aircraft, will be able to simultaneously deliver FIVE strikes at various points.
    5 UDCs will be raked at 5 different points. And that's it. Their air group does not include reconnaissance aircraft, AWACS aircraft, PLO aircraft, etc. Part of the functions can be performed by helicopters, but with a corresponding decrease in efficiency. There is also no fuel for the duty of fighters in the air. The ascent speed of the air group is an interesting question: with a vertical take-off, the F-35B will have neither fuel nor missiles, no catapults, and only one take-off corridor. There are few planes, not the fact that there will be enough for a demonstration group, an electronic warfare group and a strike group, as the Americans like it. In general, as an addition to an aircraft carrier’s air group, it’s good, but by itself it won’t live to see the battle.
    Meanwhile, it is worth noting that the UDC is slowly and confidently "getting fat".
    And this "w-w-w" is not without reason.
    1. +3
      5 August 2023 20: 51
      What are the downsides? What's wrong?
      And this is the text to pass through the moronic message about the length of the comment.
    2. 0
      7 August 2023 11: 06
      Quote: bk0010
      They could carry it, but it's unlikely to convey it. Their survivability under bombs is incomparably lower. The composition of the air group is imprisoned for the fight against submarines.

      Well, AVE worked as a second echelon, providing PLO DESO and air support for the landing until the capture of coastal airfields.
      Only "Taffy" Sprague excelled, breaking away in the style of "Mercury" at 19 knots from 30-knot SRTs and high-speed LK Kurita (led by "Yamato"). laughing Yes, and with the help of "Tuffy" Stampa pretty battered the Japanese SRT.
      And the author is completely right that UDC are the heirs of AVE. But not all, but only those from which the ILC aircraft flew. For the ILC since the time of Guadalcanal does not trust the "big" AB, which at any moment can dissolve into the blue distance, leaving the landing one on one with the enemy. Therefore, after the decommissioning of the AVE, the Marines needed their own aircraft carrier for the aircraft of the Corps, which could support the Marines in the first phase of the landing, regardless of the naval plans.
  21. 0
    5 August 2023 12: 40
    Question: how many F-35 sorties with its own reserves can "Vasp" provide? And how difficult is the resupply operation from a transport ship?
    And again, what about aircraft maintenance? Are there technical positions and personnel for a full and FAST inter-flight maintenance?
    I mean strange things happen. An aircraft carrier is only the base of an air group and rudimentary air defense. ALL!!! And in the UDC, the above + troops are magically stuffed with their cargo, equipment, hospital, headquarters and a casino with a backjack and whores.
    1. +1
      5 August 2023 14: 30
      Here - here, the ship was originally designed for turntables, and the "penguin" has an appetite "be healthy", not to mention everything else.
    2. +2
      5 August 2023 19: 04
      In fact, the dimensions of the UDC be healthy. The air group is smaller.
      1. 0
        5 August 2023 22: 13
        Yeah, only the UDC, in addition to the air group, also has a small flooded chamber in the stern, and boats for landing troops, and a hangar for Marine armored vehicles, and rooms for the Marines themselves. Total - for the air group remains, quite a bit)))
  22. +1
    5 August 2023 13: 26
    from escort aircraft carriers, the UDC class was born - assault landing ships

    The postulate is absolutely unproven and cannot be accepted as an axiom.
    Wikipedia interprets the UDC as a universal landing ship. The author absolutely ignores the problem of UDC air defense at sea, regardless of the composition of his air group. Without an air defense umbrella from the "big brother" UDC, neither one by one, nor a piglet will not rock anywhere. "That's why you have no methods against Kostya Saprykin." lol
    1. +3
      5 August 2023 14: 31
      This is why escort aircraft carriers were so effective in 1943-45, because normal aircraft carriers provided them with freedom of action.
    2. 0
      7 August 2023 11: 13
      Quote: Scharnhorst
      The postulate is absolutely unproven and cannot be accepted as an axiom.

      The postulate is correct. The UDC was born from the desire of the ILC to have its own offshore platform for the Corps aircraft, which could support the landing force until it captures coastal airfields. The ILC had no hope for its squadrons on "large" ABs - these ABs solved purely naval tasks and could leave at any moment (as on Guadalcanal).
      In WWII, the tasks of the UDC for the air support of the landing force were carried out just by the AVE with the Marine air groups.
  23. +2
    5 August 2023 14: 58
    Dreaming is not bad! You can build as many aircraft carriers, aircraft carriers as you want, but they will all be easy prey. For the functioning of aircraft carriers and any ships, a space constellation is required to ensure continuous monitoring of the operational space. It is also necessary to have large UAVs that can stay in the air for days and have enough of them to check the data of the space constellation at the time necessary to make a decision. All this should fly, look, see (namely, see everything, everywhere and always, in any conditions) and not break. Most importantly, an interface is needed to ensure timely processing and transmission of data between the space constellation and up to the means of destruction. Only in the presence of the above can one dream of an aircraft carrier fleet and release large ships from ports.
  24. +3
    5 August 2023 16: 14
    I express my doubts about the adequacy of the naval headquarters in building the country's naval defense system. If admirals send a ship of the first rank to the clash zone to establish an air defense umbrella to cover from air strikes, this is either the height of incompetence or sabotage
  25. +3
    5 August 2023 16: 28
    Quote from Eugene Zaboy
    Dreaming is not bad! You can build as many aircraft carriers, aircraft carriers as you want, but they will all be easy prey.

    Ukraine does not have boats in the Black Sea, but the coastline is a couple of hundred kilometers, and what helps us greatly with our Black Sea Fleet and all the satellites? In the event of a kneading, the Gulf of Finland will be immediately locked up and no one will twitch anywhere. In Vladik, japanese and what are we going to do? Roll pennants along the NSR with the help of icebreakers?
    1. +1
      5 August 2023 23: 13
      Today, at least 500 satellites are used in the interests of Ukraine, but how many of us are working on Ukraine? For high-quality reconnaissance, continuous observation is necessary, and not just one snapshot, a maximum of 2 per day. There should be a long-range reconnaissance UAV between the satellite and the surface, where are they? In order to track all the movements of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in Ukraine and the launch sites of marine UAVs, especially their interception, the surface must be monitored in real time, continuously. And it costs more than one aircraft carrier. Therefore, the US economy is bursting at the seams. So after all, they are cracking collectively, together with the EU and Japan, but we need it? On the one hand, in order to win, you need to make satellites and aircraft carriers like them, on the other hand, if you follow this path, you will go bankrupt like them. Something like this!
  26. 0
    5 August 2023 17: 01
    Even if we discuss the theoretical views and conclusions of the author with which I disagree in many ways, but it will be polemic for five similar articles of the text. A little about the specifics in which the author is wrong.
    1. "UDK - assault landing ships" - in fact, a UNIVERSAL landing ship, the meaning is completely different, the design, armament, and principle of use, etc. are completely different.
    2. “in the case of any world-scale batch, these are 11 airfields advanced to an arbitrarily long distance from the US coast” - never, under no circumstances, will the Americans be able to do this, because a third of this number is always under repair. These are the basics, the author cannot not know this, but if he does not know ...
    3. “But the most important thing on our topic is from 20 to 25 F-35B aircraft” - of course, you can stuff this air group into the UDC, but you won’t be able to use it. First, where do you get the required F-35s? With all the wealth of the United States, there are no placers of free unused aircraft there. We'll have to wait a year or two for them to be done. Where to get people for their exploitation? With this, it is somewhat easier, but also strained. The planes, the ship and the attendants assembled in one heap are not yet a combat unit, months of preparation are required so that they can be sent to combat service. It will not be possible to place aircraft with an ejection launch on the UDC, therefore it will be left without AWACS aircraft and will be able to fully fight only in conjunction with a classic aircraft carrier.
    4. No matter how much the F-35 is praised, but any aircraft with a short / vertical takeoff / landing will always lose to an aircraft of the classical scheme, therefore, the UDC air group will always be weaker than a similar number of classic aircraft.
    5. Regarding the number of aircraft on an aircraft carrier and UDC. On an aircraft carrier of the classical scheme, no more than half of the aircraft can be allocated for strike operations. The second half will always be busy providing air defense and anti-aircraft defense of the ship / formation, being under repair, for maintenance. And the number of aircraft allocated for air defense and anti-aircraft defense cannot be less than the minimum order. At the limit, this squad will be busy only with ensuring the safety of the ship. For the UDC, this means that you either have to give a damn about the ship's security, or drastically reduce the strike component of the air group.
    6. It is much easier and cheaper to deploy short/vertical takeoff and landing aircraft on converted container ships, as the British did forty years ago. By the way, the American escorts of the WWII period are deeply converted civilian ships.
  27. 0
    5 August 2023 17: 07
    The author forgets one thing that since WWII, the aircraft has grown in size by 4 and in weight by six times, and fuel consumption has increased by almost ten times. I generally keep quiet about the cost of both ships and aircraft. In the presence of good air defense, all air mass is trash.
  28. +1
    5 August 2023 21: 11
    The carrier fleet is the imperial fleet. To build and maintain it, you need to collect tribute from vassals and donors.
    The Russian Federation does not do this, and therefore aircraft carriers are not needed. But means of their containment (defeat) are necessary and they are.
    Somehow, a long time ago, a military specialist explained that in military affairs, as a rule, there is no goal to destroy. For example, they say that an aircraft carrier can only be sunk by nuclear weapons. Why burn it? The goal is to incapacitate him so he can perform his tasks. As life has shown, any serious accident (damage) disables an aircraft carrier for many months.
  29. 0
    5 August 2023 23: 17
    An expert on all technology on the planet Skomorokhov after the Su-34 decided to switch to aircraft carriers))) Rum, maybe you mastered ChatGPT?))) and now it composes for you?
  30. 0
    6 August 2023 00: 09
    Roman drowns for aircraft carriers?! This is something new!
  31. 0
    6 August 2023 00: 30
    On the way, a small UAV swam up and fired a torpedo. The toothlessness of our government is explained by the fact that THEM loot THERE. In three counts they would have forced peace. BUT WHERE are the support yards REQUESTED by the government. Well, our WHICH HEX has a lot of dough there.
  32. 0
    6 August 2023 11: 15
    All this is casuistry, IMHO.
    The main thing is that the Aircraft Carrier, that the UDC is a warehouse + an airfield, and a mobile one.
    You can transfer aircraft, cargo, etc.
    + "long arm" + highly trained technical staff at hand.

    A large airfield, small - it's not so important. The main thing is there, and it can let aviation, equipment, cargo through itself and create a threat.

    And the rest is a matter of trained brains - how to manage it ....
  33. -2
    6 August 2023 13: 57
    Aircraft carriers were once a formidable force, but that is no longer the case. Now aircraft carriers are good in wars against the Papuans, where they can be successfully used as floating airfields. In a war against a serious enemy, they can be quickly destroyed. The same ten Nimitz-class aircraft carriers can be destroyed by a dozen of our "daggers" (apparently, the same can be said about Chinese hypersonic missiles). Hypersonic missiles flying at speeds up to 10M will simply tear the aircraft carrier to shreds, it is impossible to repel their attack, because the speed of the most modern American air defense missiles does not exceed 3M. As a result, the enemy will lose more than 30 thousand people at once. All this also applies to the latest nuclear aircraft carriers of the "Ford" type and UDC of the "Tarawa" type. So it’s better for American aircraft carriers not to appear off our coasts, this is in their own interests.

    Something else is curious: the widespread use by the Americans during the WWII of escort aircraft carriers. Why don't we use the American and our own experience during the Second World War, when we converted the seiners into patrol ships and minesweepers. Now mobilized civilian ships armed with automatic guns and command posts could help protect ports and convoys (of course, along with regular ships of the Black Sea Fleet), especially since the need for such ships should increase dramatically. In addition, ships anchored at the entrance to the harbor or in the Kerch Strait, armed with automatic guns and CPVs, could radically strengthen the defense against naval drones. Something similar was done during the Second World War during the defense of Sevastopol, then a floating coastal battery was placed at the entrance to the harbor and it operated effectively.
    1. 0
      6 August 2023 21: 30
      Quote: Andrey A
      The same ten Nimitz-class aircraft carriers can be destroyed by a dozen of our "daggers"
      The dagger only works on stationary targets.
      Quote: Andrey A
      it is impossible to repel their attack, because the speed of the most modern American air defense missiles does not exceed 3M
      Actually, they even intercepted warheads of ICBMs.
      Quote: Andrey A
      So it’s better for American aircraft carriers not to appear off our coasts, this is in their own interests.
      The range of carrier-based aviation and aviation weapons will allow
      spoil us without appearing on our shores.
      1. -2
        8 August 2023 16: 55
        9-A-7660 "Kinzhal" [1] (in a number of sources X-47M2 "Kinzhal" [2] [3]) is a Russian hypersonic aviation missile system. Hypersonic missiles 9-S-7760 [4] (about 10 M) of the complex are capable of hitting both stationary objects and surface ships: aircraft carriers, cruisers, destroyers and frigates [5]


        Thus, "daggers" can hit not only stationary, but also surface targets, including, presumably, aircraft carriers.
        As for the fact that the Americans also intercepted ICBM units, they do not have many anti-missiles, they are located mainly in the United States, while the "dagger" can also maneuver, which practically excludes the possibility of interception.
        If we talk about the range of US naval aviation, then for the F-18 it is 720 km + approx. 500-1000 km - the range of explosive missiles. Total: up to 1700 km. Range of "daggers":
        Maximum range of damage to the complex:
        MiG-31K - 2000 km according to the press conference of the Supreme Commander.[52] For MiG-31K[53][54] (without carrier combat radius).
        Tu-22M3 - more than 3000 km [55]

        Conclusion: we can sink the "Nimitz" long before they can use their aircraft.
  34. 0
    14 August 2023 08: 18
    There is one "BUT", both the aircraft carrier (AVN) and the universal landing ship (UDC) are good precisely against Iraq. But what if it is Russia, North Korea or China with thousands of anti-ship missiles (winged and aeroballistic), from which not a single air defense / missile defense system can fight off? And the question arises: how many AVN and UDC will survive after a massive retaliatory strike? And what will be the price paid by the same UDC for strikes on the coast?
    1. 0
      15 August 2023 13: 40
      Fans of aircraft carriers should remember that an aircraft carrier is a large object in the ocean and is clearly visible from space, while it has very limited maneuverability and getting into it with a homing rod striking element launched by a ballistic missile thousands of kilometers from the depths of the continent is a completely solvable task today, otherwise that when the warhead enters the dense layers of the atmosphere, the guidance system stops working, it doesn’t matter, for those tens of seconds of being in them, the aircraft carrier will not be able to either turn off or slow down. By the way, if there is not one large rod, but several small ones, this will increase the likelihood of a hit, even an ordinary scrap that fell on the flight deck at a speed of 4 km / s will go deep into the ship's hull.