Combat helicopters - the basis for countering the breakthroughs of enemy armored units in the NVO zone

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Combat helicopters - the basis for countering the breakthroughs of enemy armored units in the NVO zone
This photo clearly demonstrates the reasons for the loss of combat helicopters of the RF Armed Forces in the NVO zone


The results of the use of combat helicopters during a special military operation (SVO) in Ukraine are largely contradictory. On the one hand, they talk about the high efficiency of these machines, showing shots of destroyed enemy equipment, on the other hand, the vulnerability of combat helicopters to modern air defense (air defense) systems is quite high.



According to Ukrainian data, the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation (RF Armed Forces) have already lost several dozens of Ka-52 and Mi-28N combat helicopters during the NMD. Of course, these figures are clearly overestimated, but there is no doubt that there are losses of Russian combat helicopters. Cases of defeat of Russian combat helicopters were noted both with the help of portable anti-aircraft missile systems (MANPADS), provided in abundance to the armed forces of Ukraine (APU) by Western countries, and anti-tank systems (ATGM) of the second generation "Stugna-P" developed and manufactured Ukrainian military-industrial complex (OPK).


Shot down in Ukraine Russian combat helicopter Ka-52

The loss of expensive combat vehicles from much cheaper means of destruction can lead to the conclusion that the era of combat helicopters is over, and that their tasks will be solved by other means, for example, unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), but in reality everything is not so simple.

If we talk only about combat helicopters, leaving out reconnaissance, transport, transport-combat and other specialized models, then we can distinguish two main tasks they solve - fire support for ground forces and counteraction to enemy armored vehicles.

Based on this, in the twentieth century, the main specialization of a combat helicopter was formed - an anti-tank combat helicopter or a fire support combat helicopter. At the same time, over time, the difference in the design of an anti-tank combat helicopter and a fire support combat helicopter was increasingly erased, in fact, it began to be determined by the composition of weapons, which can be changed depending on the task.


The Franco-German attack helicopter "Tiger" was produced in versions designed for solving anti-tank missions, and in versions optimized for fire support of ground units

History the creation and development of combat helicopters, as well as their weapons, we have previously considered in the materials A helicopter against the tank. Standoff more than half a century long и Russian military helicopters and their weapons. History, present and future.

Let's look at them in the context of solving the problems of fire support and countering enemy armored vehicles, as well as their impact on the survival of rotary-winged combat vehicles.

Combat helicopters for fire support


The use of helicopters to solve the problems of fire support for ground forces is a natural continuation of the experience of using attack aircraft during the Second World War (WWII).

Unlike aircraft, combat helicopters for fire support could be based in close proximity to the front line or combat zone. The helicopter does not need prepared airfields, a jump airfield is enough - a relatively flat area, fuel tanks and a small ammunition depot.

Proximity to the battlefield allows fire support helicopters to arrive at the battlefield faster than aircraft, which have a much higher speed. The lower speed of the helicopter and the possibility of hovering allows you to better identify targets, reduces the risks of "friendly fire".


Bell AH-1 Cobra ("Cobra") - primarily a combat helicopter for fire support, a narrow silhouette minimizes the likelihood of being hit by enemy oncoming fire during an attack

For the first time, the effectiveness of combat helicopters for fire support was revealed during the US invasion of Vietnam, and then it was confirmed during the entry of a limited contingent of Soviet troops into Afghanistan. The main weapons of combat helicopters for fire support were machine guns, rapid-fire automatic cannons and unguided aviation rockets (NAR).


Mi-24P - Soviet transport and combat helicopter, actually a fire support helicopter with the ability to transport troops - the USSR did not have "clean" fire support helicopters or anti-tank helicopters at that time

Of course, as in the case of WWII attack aircraft, combat helicopters of fire support were subjected to enemy return fire, primarily from small arms weapons and anti-aircraft artillery systems (ZAK). A little later, MANPADS were added to them, which significantly changed the balance of power on the battlefield.

Anti-tank combat helicopters


The anti-tank specialization of combat helicopters originated simultaneously with the advent of anti-tank systems that hit armored targets with anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs).

Since WWII, Soviet armored hordes have terrified Western leaders. Quantity tanks in service with the USSR reached tens of thousands, not counting armored personnel carriers (APCs), infantry fighting vehicles (IFVs), self-propelled artillery mounts (ACS) and other ground combat and auxiliary vehicles. The appearance of anti-tank systems seemed (and became) a very effective asymmetric response to the threat of massive use of armored forces by the enemy.


Production of tanks in the USSR by years

Combat helicopters have become one of the most effective carriers of anti-tank systems. They could move quickly in the combat zone and destroy several enemy tanks in one sortie.


Boeing AH-64 Apache ("Apache") - anti-tank combat helicopter, one of the best of its kind, too expensive and lightly armored to go on it in "frontal" attacks


Mi-28N - Russian counterpart of the American AN-64 Apache, conceptually similar in many respects to it, but much better armored

Of course, every action gives rise to counteraction - in addition to the above-mentioned MANPADS, specialized short-range and short-range anti-aircraft missile systems (SAMs) specially designed to hit low-flying targets, including combat helicopters, began to enter service with the leading countries of the world. Standing apart in this row is the Russian anti-aircraft missile and gun system (ZRPK) "Tunguska", capable of fighting air targets both with the help of two rapid-fire automatic guns, which practically do not have a minimum "dead" zone, and with the help of anti-aircraft guided missiles (SAM) , having a greater firing range than all ATGMs of that time.


ZRPK "Tunguska"

The long range and flight speed of missiles, compared to ATGMs, seemed to tip the scales again in favor of ground forces, however, unlike fire support helicopters, which had to face anti-aircraft artillery and MANPADS in real combat operations, anti-tank helicopters failed to face the latest air defense systems and air defense systems in real combat operations, therefore it was not possible to determine the winner in the duel "combat helicopter against air defense systems".

However, these are problems of future conflicts; for us, the current reality in the NWO format is more important.

Combat helicopters in the NVO zone


The Armed Forces of Ukraine do not have or have very few air defense systems capable of counteracting modern combat helicopters. However, the Armed Forces of Ukraine have more than enough MANPADS, ZAK and small arms capable of attacking combat helicopters at short range.

Moreover, never in the history of mankind has such a concentration of modern, high-tech MANPADS been achieved as in the NVO zone on the territory of Ukraine.

It can be assumed that most of the Russian combat helicopters were lost either during attacks using unguided weapons, or when entering the depth of enemy territory. Based on this, it is possible to significantly reduce the loss of combat helicopters by fulfilling several conditions:

The first is not to use combat helicopters over positions, and preferably over enemy territory in general, which is not under the control of its ground forces.

As an exception, rotorcraft raids at night at low altitude deep into enemy territory to destroy some especially important targets can be considered, however, this is more of a special operation, not a combined arms battle.

Secondly, combat helicopters must operate in the zone of domination, albeit partial, of their aviation.

Helicopters can fight aircraft, but still this is the exception rather than the rule.

The third is a complete rejection of the use of unguided weapons, excluding cases of self-defense using an automatic gun.


Correct ammunition Ka-52

It's completely. Abandoning both suicidal attacks in the style of WWII attack aircraft to directly support troops with unguided weapons, and ineffective, senseless NAR launches from a roll-up "into milk".

Moreover, it is necessary to completely abandon the use of unguided weapons from modern combat aircraft - even during the bombing of bearded terrorists in Syria, ruining the resource of high-tech machines for dropping "cast iron" is just a crime, just look at the cost of a flight hour of modern combat aircraft and helicopters to understand it. To use cheap unguided weapons, equally cheap carriers with a low cost of operation and flight hour are needed.

How then to support ground units?

If we are talking about enemy armored vehicles, then by launching ATGMs from a safe distance, and if we are talking about manpower or fortifications, then with the help of cannon and rocket artillery, as well as kamikaze UAVs.

But after all, artillery can also hit enemy armored vehicles with guided munitions.

Yes, but artillery does not have the same tactical mobility as attack helicopters. Groups of combat helicopters can operate in a zone with a radius of several hundred kilometers, eliminating breakthroughs of enemy armored vehicles, but will it be possible to provide this with artillery?

It was the Ukrainian counter-offensive that showed how effectively combat helicopters can solve anti-tank missions.

Where, then, to put the NAR launchers and the missiles themselves?

Potentially, they can be converted into guided weapons, as BAE Systems did with the Hydra NAR, which we have already discussed in the material The problem of the high cost of precision-guided munitions and ways to solve it.


NAR "Hydra" modified into guided missiles

Most likely, their development and production will take a long time, which we do not have, because the SVO is already underway, so there is another way out - the deployment of NAR launchers (PU) on ground carriers.


MTLB with 22-charge shipborne 140-mm rocket launchers MS-227 of the A-22 Ogon complex

NAR launchers can be mounted in the same way, especially since many armies of the world have such experience. The weight and size characteristics of NAR launchers make it possible to place them on almost any ground carrier, even on motorcycles with a sidecar, including remotely controlled ones. robots.


Examples of placement of NAR launchers on various ground carriers

Combat vehicles with NAR launchers can be attached to each company, or even platoon, compensating for the lack of helicopter fire support from the air with ground rocket artillery, especially in combination with UAVs and artillery.

Conclusions


Combat helicopters are one of the most effective means of countering enemy armored vehicles; they can thwart almost any attack by enemy mechanized units, provided that their aircraft dominate the air.

The saturation of the battlefield with air defense systems of all types excludes the operation of a helicopter as a means of fire support for ground units with unguided weapons. It is the anti-tank orientation of combat helicopters that should become the main one, not counting their episodic use for solving special tasks.

Considering the number of short-range air defense systems supplied to Ukraine by Western countries that are present in the NVO zone, and also that despite this, Russian combat helicopters still exist, it can be safely stated that the time of combat helicopters has not yet passed, and that they great future.
118 comments
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  1. +8
    13 June 2023 02: 56
    Recently there was a message that our helicopter survived 18 MANPADS attacks ... so, Mr. author, you are pulling a little owl on the globe claiming that

    The saturation of the battlefield with air defense systems of all types excludes the operation of a helicopter as a means of fire support for ground
    .
    It is necessary to improve the means of protection for turntables ... I hope our military-industrial complex is working on this.
    1. -1
      13 June 2023 04: 26
      the time of combat helicopters is still not over, and that they have a great future.
      And here is the answer!
      1. +4
        13 June 2023 07: 12
        ground fire support

        Here is a problem that should be written about.
        Air defense over the battlefield will only become denser in the future, therefore, cheap air support is needed, which ones, is that a question?
        It is clear that the time of attack aircraft and attack aircraft in this matter has passed, the time of UAVs is coming, but which ones, and with what weapons?
        1. +1
          13 June 2023 23: 01
          Everything is right no matter what. No matter how hard they try to pull the owl on the globe and try to find some kind of application, the next step is something similar to a helicopter only in an unmanned version.
          Trying to make a helicopter that will coordinate a swarm of drones will simply come to a standstill when systems for searching and detecting such a machine appear, followed by the launch of a rocket or the same drone.
          1. +1
            14 June 2023 08: 42
            Nice and correct article. Our helicopters were shot down not at all because the helicopters were outdated, but because our untrained generals from the Moscow Region did not understand modern realities and where progress had gone.
            None of them even read in a magazine that the Americans have long had a missile that the operator does not need to guide before hitting the target, like our still Soviet ATGM Whirlwind, that you can launch a missile and leave, and at times reduce the risks of being shot down for the crew and vehicle. Therefore, none of these generals set tasks for the development of such missiles for our military-industrial complex. Moreover, work on such a missile, now known as object 305 or LMUR, was carried out by the military-industrial complex, but was abandoned back in 2009 and was resumed not at all by the Ministry of Defense but by the FSB, and it is to them that we owe the appearance of such a complex and with completely different characteristics that could to be if this missile was ordered by the Moscow Region.
            In addition, none of the untrained generals from the easy chairs of the Ministry of Defense bothered to set the task of studying new tactics for using helicopters in conditions of saturated enemy air defense, and practicing them in exercises.
            Meanwhile, Ka-52 helicopters, armed ONLY with LMUR anti-tank systems redesigned to the requirements of the army, built into the automatic command and control system and connected by a reliable and closed system of information exchange with aviation and space intelligence, as well as with ground troops, UAV operators and artillery, would multiply its significance and effectiveness on the battlefield and this would avoid those terrible losses due to the stupid actions of the untrained.
            And in the hands of the untrained, all weapons become useless, even tanks and helicopters.
            1. -1
              15 June 2023 00: 58
              Quote: ramzay21
              Meanwhile Ka-52 helicopters armed ONLY with LMUR ATGMs redesigned to the requirements of the army, built into the automatic command and control system and connected by a reliable and closed system of information exchange with aviation and space intelligence, as well as with ground troops, UAV operators and artillery, would multiply their significance and effectiveness on the battlefield and this would allow avoid those terrible losses due to the stupid actions of the untrained.


              I don't think it's real. Product 305 was developed in cooperation with KB Mil. For MI-8 (FSB) and Mi-28NM helicopters. It is integrated into a new generation sighting and navigation system, which is fundamentally different from the Mi-28N PNK. To Kamov machines LMUR can only be screwed. Moreover, as experience with the "Attack" shows, it is screwed with a loss of combat characteristics.

              By the way, why only LMUR? For example, the Mi-28NM carries an external container with a missile from the Chrysanthemum. Big heavy rocket, why is it bad? I agree that the use of the Ka-52 in Ukraine, as it is now, is a disgrace to the Kamov Design Bureau. Why was it worth fencing all this machinery with radars and OLS, if the only means of destruction that the KA-52 can use on a regular basis are packs of NURSs.
              But, I believe that, like strategic aviation aircraft, combat helicopters are only as modern as their weapons are modern. It is necessary to give the Mi-28M a developed complex of guided missile weapons based on the principle of a "flying television camera" and a drone repeater. And combat helicopters will again become a highly effective means of destruction on the battlefield.
              As an alternative, a helicopter version of the Lancet strike UAV.
            2. 0
              16 June 2023 22: 34
              And you, then, understand from the sofa? Unlike generals?
            3. +1
              16 June 2023 22: 36
              "None of them even read in a magazine that the Americans have long had a missile that does not need to be guided by the operator until it hits the target, like our still Soviet ATGM Whirlwind"
              You dumb-headed experts - the same Whirlwind does not need to be accompanied to the end
        2. +1
          14 June 2023 07: 37
          Or maybe it is better to develop means and methods for destroying these air defense forces? Long-range complexes were beaten - they went on the offensive - it is unlikely that anyone will use MANPADS when an enemy tank is knocking at you - this is where a helicopter appears, which actively helps this enemy tank.
          Everything must work together. And if you think about how to act in conditions of very dense air defense, then you need to think through everything in such a way that in this context new applications can be found for all types of weapons. As practice shows, when we are not trying to develop a universal prodigy, but spread tasks over different machines, everything turns out better.
        3. TIR
          0
          31 August 2023 15: 20
          The time for helicopters has not passed. You just need to move away from the concept of just a striking machine. We need a cheap carrier (as a variant of the Mi-8 to remake) anti-tank systems and one guidance UAV. Moreover, an ATGM is needed with a maximum range of 15 km. The concept is very simple and tenacious. Say, in the event of an attack by armored vehicles, they call 2-3 aircraft to the attack area. Not reaching 10-15 km to the area where enemy armored vehicles are concentrated, an aircraft-type UAV suspended from a helicopter takes off and is controlled by a co-pilot from a helicopter. The UAV rises higher, and the helicopter descends in order to hide from missiles, but in such a way as to keep in touch with the UAV. When the drone reaches the attack area, target reconnaissance occurs. Then the target is illuminated by laser guidance, the co-pilot sends an ATGM on the readiness command. He gains altitude and moves towards the UAV, there he finds a highlighted target and hits. Thus, the helicopter will be safe over its territory. Only UAVs are included in the air defense operating zone. After work, both cars return to base. The helicopter returns the first number, the UAV lands the second according to radio commands. MI-8 can be redesigned for such a scheme. He can take more ATGMs and UAVs. At the same time, there is a place to put the UAV operator
      2. TIR
        +2
        13 June 2023 19: 53
        Their time has just come. But the concept of an attack helicopter needs to be changed. From a machine that carries weapons and at the same time detects targets and directs its missiles at them, you just need to create a weapon carrier. Perhaps even one of the vehicles can carry an aircraft-type drone, which will unhook at the right point and move closer to the dangerous area to detect and guide missiles at targets. Helicopters will be at a safe distance and below the radio horizon. Even visually out of sight of the enemy. The UAV is less noticeable and its loss will not be so sensitive. With such a bundle, it will be possible to use cheaper laser-guided missiles, but with a range of 15+ km. Such a bunch, although it looks utopian, is already working in artillery when using the Orlan + Krasnopol UAV. Only in the case of a helicopter + UAV, it will be a very mobile tandem that can close a hundred kilometers of the front and with an almost unlimited range of destruction (depending on the type of missiles)
        1. -2
          13 June 2023 23: 08
          Their time has just come
          Alas, it ends.

          Helicopters will be at a safe distance and below the radio horizon. Even visually out of sight of the enemy.
          And somewhere at a distance of a hundred kilometers, a reconnaissance drone will hang (one such drone has already been filled with kerosene over the Black Sea) and it’s great to see the helicopter and hear it on the air. Most likely, satellite systems will take a step in development too.

          it will be possible to use cheaper laser-guided missiles, but with a range of 15+ km
          Probably, in order to aim at the target along the beam, the helicopter should not twitch strongly and maneuver sharply? And this is for the entire flight time of the rocket for 15 km. Will there always be such a chance?
          1. 0
            14 June 2023 07: 40
            Quote from barbos
            Probably, in order to aim at the target along the beam, the helicopter should not twitch strongly and maneuver sharply? And this is for the entire flight time of the rocket for 15 km. Will there always be such a chance?

            Let the rocket be fired from an UAV or even from low-flying satellites. As I understood the comrade above, the helicopter must launch a rocket and dump - now it is not his problem. He just brought her to the right place.
            1. 0
              15 June 2023 00: 45
              Quote: Plate
              Let the rocket be fired from an UAV or even from low-flying satellites.

              UAV? Didn't the experience of using Bayraktors teach you anything?
              Satellites in low orbits cannot hang, they revolve around the earth, and at a high speed. Over the conditional Avdiivka, such a satellite sweeps from horizon to horizon in minutes.
          2. +1
            15 June 2023 00: 43
            Quote from barbos
            Probably, in order to aim at the target along the beam, the helicopter should not twitch strongly and maneuver sharply? And this is for the entire flight time of the rocket for 15 km. Will there always be such a chance?


            You don't even know how wrong you are. The Mi-28N is capable of starting an evasive maneuver immediately after a missile launch, and flying for kilometers in any direction, the target-holding machine will keep the "frame" on the selected area of ​​​​the terrain.
            The concept of a "flying TV camera" does not require at all to keep the target in the lens of the helicopter sighting system. All she needs is a stable communication channel.
            1. 0
              16 June 2023 04: 06
              All she needs is a stable communication channel.

              What methods do not offer - first of all, electronics, an element base are needed. And cheap for a single use. And not weighing ... a kilogram ...
              And the best - theoretical - solution has been known for a long time - fired and forgot.
              But for it to work - and you need electronics, processors for selecting targets and interference, and not "... these technical processes are sufficient for the production of military products (about microcircuits)" - they are sufficient to produce old designs ... It is especially clearly seen from a fast-flying rocket ...
              1. 0
                17 June 2023 02: 19
                Quote from tsvetahaki
                And the best - theoretical - solution has been known for a long time - fired and forgot.


                No. Even theoretically, this is NOT the best solution. Since there are no algorithms in nature that guarantee the correct recognition goals. You can shoot and forget without any electronics - he shot anywhere and dumped. It's not about, but about shooting and hit. And not just where, but where necessary. And to do this, you first need to recognize the goal. And no one on the planet now understands how a person recognizes goals. All the most sophisticated algorithms now implement formal guidance on a white spot in the center of the screen.
          3. TIR
            0
            20 June 2023 16: 30
            The helicopter will hover over its territory below the radio horizon. There is even a possibility in the folds of the terrain. Missiles will be guided by an UAV, which can also hang over enemy territory
    2. +25
      13 June 2023 04: 58
      Flying over enemy positions, especially if there was time to equip them and saturate the air defense, for the turntables is really like a kamikaze mission. But to cut off tank breakthroughs before the enemy had time to pull up air defense, that's it. For some reason, I didn’t notice either “Gepards” or “Shilok” in the pictures of dill armored columns, and NARs were placed on small arms, with very sad consequences for the shooters. Well, to nightmare the retreating is also quite.
      1. +1
        14 June 2023 09: 22
        But to cut off tank breakthroughs before the enemy had time to pull up air defense, that’s it.

        We had such a concept. A mobile obstacle detachment in helicopters. When the enemy broke through, it was planned to set up minefields on the ground in the direction of travel, cover them with artillery, and strike with helicopters. After Serdyukov's reforms, these plans became a thing of the past. Now they will probably revive them.
    3. +12
      13 June 2023 05: 59
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      It is necessary to improve the means of protecting the turntables.

      It is necessary to use sufficiently long-range weapons, which, by the way, is already being done. For the use of helicopters as air anti-tank platforms. It is desirable to increase the range of ATGMs to 12-14 km.
      1. +2
        13 June 2023 20: 01
        and how can a non-stationary target be detected from a low-flying turntable at a distance of 10-12 km (unless it’s a desert, of course) ??? that is, pre-reconnaissance is needed, which means that the UAV in the target area as an option is launching from the side of the turntable a loitering kamikaze drone, but this is a completely different technological level, considering that basically (and this is almost 99%) our turntables use NURS (and usually C50 )..
        py.sy. by the way, there are already ATGMs with a range of ~ 12 km (in the Russian army) this is Chrysanthemum but .. this is a purely ground-based ATGM that prevents it from being hung under a turntable ??
        1. 0
          14 June 2023 00: 07
          Quote: WapentakeLokki
          and how can a non-stationary target be detected from a low-flying turntable at a distance of 10-12 km (unless it’s a desert, of course) ???

          what
          Quote: WapentakeLokki
          we need pre-reconnaissance, which means UAVs in the target area

          Yes Only it should be a conventional reconnaissance UAV with a target designation function. Preferably with laser target designation.
          Not from a helicopter! But preferably from the same airfield / site with him, and with the function of controlling / using the UAV by the navigator of the attack helicopter. It's all very easy to organize. And the same guidance scheme should and must be for guiding Izdeliye-306 missiles launched from helicopters (and attack aircraft!) with a range of 40 km.
          Quote: WapentakeLokki
          ) our turntables use NURS (and usually C50) ..

          Now (right now) our attack helicopters use precisely and predominantly guided missiles.
          Quote: WapentakeLokki
          by the way, there are already ATGMs with a range of ~ 12 km (in the Russian army) this is Chrysanthemum but .. this is a purely ground-based ATGM that prevents it from being hung under a turntable ??

          Actually, the range of "Chrysanthemum" is 10 km. Or do you think that launching from an air carrier will add another 2 km. ? These are equivalent missiles, perhaps even have the same roots.
          I think that to have an ATGM with a range of 10 km for an attack helicopter. and SD with a range of 40 km. can give just wonderful synergy and flexibility in application. It is only necessary to work out their combat use in cooperation with a reconnaissance UAV with a target designation function. Both missiles are new , but I am sure that already in this SVO their use will be worked out and our shock turntables will sparkle with completely new colors on the fields of upcoming battles .
          1. 0
            15 June 2023 01: 15
            Quote: bayard
            I think that to have an ATGM with a range of 10 km for an attack helicopter. and SD with a range of 40 km. can give just wonderful synergy and flexibility in application. It is only necessary to work out their combat use in cooperation with a reconnaissance UAV with a target designation function.

            How are you going to conduct reconnaissance at a distance of 40 km? To simply "pull out" such a distance from the horizon, you need to hover at a minimum height of 150 meters. But at such a distance from such a height, no OLS will work. And the Ka-52 and Mi-28M radars give a target detection and recognition range of 10-15 kilometers. It is necessary to at least double the range of the radar. Yes, not for air targets, but for ground targets, which is many times more difficult.
            UAV reconnaissance, yes it is possible. But they'll be knocked down. Or mute. So, what is next? It turns out that? The actions and, in general, the combat capability of an attack helicopter will depend on whether a cheap plastic drone is knocked out of the sky or not?
            The MI-28N has long had a communication channel for receiving data from the UAV. Like 20 years. But the creators did not just place the means of reconnaissance and guidance on the helicopter itself. People thought.
            Unfortunately, a distance of 40 km for guided missile weapons is not achievable. Not because of the characteristics of the missile, but because of the capabilities of reconnaissance and target recognition systems.
            1. 0
              8 July 2023 21: 44
              Why are you misleading people? There is no "channel of communication with the UAV" on the Mi-28N. He appeared only on the Mi-28NM and Ka-52M.
              About the automatic tracking machine, which allows you to launch missiles and turn away in any direction - generally nonsense. All guidance equipment is in the bow, and with a sharp lapel, the "Attack" will lose its target. At the same time, the Mi-28N is deprived of the opportunity to use anything other than the ancient "Attack", even the Mi-35M is better in this regard.
              That is why the 28th in the SVO is only used by the NAR, and all work on armored vehicles lies with the Kamovs.
              Not to mention the fact that even on the Mi-28NM, the fully equipped BKO did not appear.
              For 40 years they sawed a copy of "Apache", but it turned out to be almost useless.
        2. 0
          14 June 2023 00: 12
          A whirlwind flies for 10 km, a little chtol? True, it costs as much as the salary of a Muscovite for 5 years ...
    4. +1
      13 June 2023 10: 15
      So far, the best defense for attack helicopters is an increase in the range of anti-tank missiles.
    5. 0
      13 June 2023 11: 38
      First, it is necessary to improve reconnaissance measures to identify the positions of air defense systems and MANPADS.
      Secondly, taking into account the first, it is necessary to improve the planning of AA actions, with the goal of performing combat missions and eliminating losses.
      And at this time, in parallel with these events and the use of information from them, the design bureaus should be smart about increasing the combat capabilities of AA, including its defense.

      If you use AA mindlessly, it will end quickly.
    6. +1
      17 July 2023 23: 52
      Everything needs to be improved. And don't be naive.

      Yes, with luck, the Ka-52 can repel many heat-seeking MANPADS missiles. The old ones are completely useless. New stingers sometimes reach targets, we have lost a lot of turntables.

      But Vitebsk can't deflect BUK missiles or a portable laser Startrick.

      What do you think brought down this bunch of turntables? Part of the shooter of course. But the main MANPADS and beech
  2. +3
    13 June 2023 04: 22
    subject to air supremacy of their aviation

    It's a matter of small... wink
  3. +3
    13 June 2023 05: 19
    MTLB with 22-charge shipborne 140-mm rocket launchers MS-227 of the A-22 Ogon complex
    In my opinion, this is still someone's photo joke. And for a height-length of more than two meters, it is too small, and subsidence of the tracks is not visible, for two tons. Plus unpainted and the only photo.
    1. +6
      13 June 2023 07: 11
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      In my opinion, this is still someone's photo joke.

      Could be... could be! But on many Internet sites this "message" is already firmly established!
      PSA is that also a joke?

      Something too many "jokers" got divorced ... to the heel!
      1. +2
        13 June 2023 08: 25
        Quote: Nikolaevich I
        Could be... could be! But on many Internet sites this "message" is already firmly established!
        On many, yes ... Only one and the same photo.

        Quote: Nikolaevich I
        PSA is that also a joke?
        But this shushpantser is just full of photos and videos. And the installation got up normally, thanks to the motionless barbette. What can not be said about the ship's MLRS at the motorcycle league.
      2. +1
        13 June 2023 12: 32
        There are a lot of jokers in the fleet, as well as everyone in warehouses.
  4. KCA
    +5
    13 June 2023 05: 43
    I like articles of this kind, there are only idiots in the entire General Staff, with at least a higher education and a refresher course, and many graduated from the academy, and here you are, a dirty sock in the face from a super professional
    1. +1
      14 June 2023 09: 26
      there are only idiots in the entire General Staff, with at least a higher education and a refresher course, and many graduated from the academy, and here you are, a dirty sock in the face from a super professional

      And to shave beards in the trenches, to expel wounded soldiers for exercise, to prohibit pilots from flying below 200 meters, to hold parades of standing songs in the warring units, who arranges everything? Not graduates of military academies?
    2. +1
      14 June 2023 22: 01
      Sofas they are ... they can teach everything laughing
    3. 0
      17 July 2023 23: 53
      The first part of your post is absolutely true.

      There such squalor sits parquet-plywood, which is scary.
  5. +9
    13 June 2023 06: 49
    Best regards,
    1. Air supremacy can be challenged, fighters will go to Ukraine.
    2. Everything still rests on intelligence and communications.
    According to the Vremevsky ledge, the main problem is our blindness at a distance of 18 km.
    We begin to see the enemy from 8 km.
    The enemy accumulates in the blind zone, and passes 8 km at speed.
    And here we are brought down by the problem of communication and coordination - the data does not have time to arrive.
    The enemy brings reinforcements in small groups, we are forced to fight in direct contact with the enemy infantry.
    3. It doesn't matter what the defeat is. Armored vehicles ride on the roads. Everyone has cards.
    No real time data.
    Accordingly, the task is to ensure the receipt of these data. (Launch the balloon). We need professional reconnaissance drones for adjusting artillery fire.
    4. This problem rests on production. We need to mass-produce secure communications drones.
    5. We need our own microchips, optics, the ability to complete lines with our own machines.
    We need machine tool building and Mister Engineer. Should they return their civilian uniforms with caps? As with the king. Or not worth it yet, otherwise we will make it easier for the terrorists.
    1. +2
      13 June 2023 08: 45
      Nice analysis! It remains to give an order so that tomorrow we will have machine tools with microcircuits. And the gentlemen of the engineers urgently recruit from the sellers of coffee in cups.
    2. +3
      13 June 2023 10: 27
      I agree.
      8 km of reconnaissance is about all sorts of mavics.
      For a longer range, you need a lot of Orlanov, Zala UAVs. True, I don’t know how far they can fly when countered by electronic warfare and air defense. But there are methods to overcome electronic warfare and air defense. The second way is observation with the help of powerful optics (an example of Bayraktar) for tens of kilometers. carriers can be balloons, medium UAVs (Pacers), light aircraft.
      1. +2
        14 June 2023 00: 20
        In theory, small self-made aircraft, which the dryers have been finding lately, are well suited against air defense - an engine from aliexpress, sticks and plywood, a plastic bottle instead of a gas tank. Well, where does it come from on such a pepelats - an eagle / shell / rocket flies there. And according to electronic warfare, in theory, an anti-radar missile should work, but we have few of them and they are quite impressive in size. There was a variant of the vortex-m with such a GOS, and it seems like the geranium-1 has a passive RLGSN. For missiles with a thermal seeker, there are many countermeasures, the included "Vitebsk" will reject most of them. And so the army needs everything - both planes and helicopters, and they are the same, but unmanned ...
    3. +2
      13 June 2023 10: 53
      Quote from Kuziming
      We need machine tool building and Mister Engineer. Should they return their civilian uniforms with caps? As with the king.
      Why look so far into history? Even under Stalin, the engineer at the plant was a "white bone", and even a novice engineer received noticeably more workers. My grandfather gave my mother for the wedding not a ring or a watch, but a cooperative "kopeck piece". Could afford. Well, he really was not a beginner, but the head of the OGM at not the largest, but not the smallest plant either. Later, under Khrushchev and Brezhnev, the salaries of workers were regularly raised (the revolt of workers in Novocherkassk taught the chiefs something), and engineering salaries remained approximately where they were under Stalin. But people nevertheless became engineers, some by vocation, and some, as one of my relatives said, "to work among people with whom it is not disgusting to communicate." I myself started with 115 rubles a month, when they called on the radio to study as tram and trolleybus drivers "the salary after graduation is 250 rubles and more, housing is provided to those in need."
      1. +7
        13 June 2023 11: 44
        Yes Yes..
        That's why Meyan's dad left the post of head of the tool shop.
        He left for another factory as an apprentice grinder.
        As a result, after a couple of months, his salary was the same as earlier in the head shop, and after 3 months it became 1,5 times more.
        1 month - 150 rubles
        2 month - 250 rubles
        3 months - 350 rubles.
        There is no responsibility, no headache, the salary is higher.
        One problem - he planted his eyes there not weakly.
      2. +3
        13 June 2023 15: 03
        While working at the plant, I talked with one power engineer of the shop who had gone to the electricians in the same shop. "Provide the culture of work, provide the cleaner with a rag, sit at meetings, the fireman came and fined, and the electrician is calmer." I lost a little in salary, but I doubt it.
  6. +3
    13 June 2023 07: 04
    Combat helicopters - the basis for countering the breakthroughs of enemy armored units in the NVO zone
    With all due respect to the rotorcraft and their heroic pilots, they are not the BASIS for counteraction, but only one of its elements. The basis is MINES-EXPLOSIVE BOARDS
  7. -1
    13 June 2023 07: 31
    It is necessary to convert it into an unmanned version of the Ka-50M with AI as a backup for electronic warfare. And the creation of a light BALA helicopter weighing up to 1-2 tons, say Ka-126 or Mi-34 and a diesel engine, it is high time to start, why with a diesel engine, less IR signature and less gearboxes, since the revolutions are less and more torque, ideal for a helicopter. soldier
    1. +1
      13 June 2023 08: 14
      It is necessary to convert it into an unmanned version of the Ka-50M with AI as a backup for electronic warfare.

      This is from the realm of fantasy, artificial intelligence, such an unmanned helicopter will be twice as expensive, and it will shoot down just like a manned one.
      1. +1
        14 June 2023 07: 47
        Come on. It is easy to develop a scheme of behavior in combat - this is found in every first flight simulator. Now, to teach AI to control a helicopter in reality (so that it does not fall down), it will be more difficult. But people are being taught. And the computer will be smarter anyway.
    2. 0
      13 June 2023 08: 18
      And the creation of a light BALA helicopter weighing up to 1-2 tons, say Ka-126 or Mi-34 and a diesel engine, it is high time to start, why with a diesel engine, less IR signature and less gearboxes, since the revolutions are less and more torque, ideal for a helicopter.


      What clung to the helicopters? Helicopters are good as transport; in modern combat use, hovering and vertical takeoff and landing are not particularly required.
    3. +2
      13 June 2023 08: 43
      It is necessary to convert it into an unmanned version of the Ka-50M

      It is necessary to make an UAV for a single Ataka or Whirlwind ATGM with a payload capacity of 50 kg, such an UAV will have a small size that is invisible to the radar, less noise and a low thermal signature that does not allow its MANPADS to be captured. And you again put all your eggs in one big and noticeable basket.
    4. 0
      13 June 2023 10: 45
      And the creation of a light BALA helicopter weighing up to 1-2 tons, say Ka-126 or Mi-34 and diesel is high time to start
      And to create a diesel engine in six months too?
      1. +1
        13 June 2023 23: 23
        There was an article about supercomputers and what they are for. True, later in the comments it was noted that we didn’t give up on Brades’ tables, we’ll calculate quickly and accurately. But it is not exactly.
        So to create and even embody in metal is not such a problem. Another problem is that supercomputers need a program (it’s not a problem to steal source codes along the line of technical intelligence, they didn’t cheat like that) and this program needs good developers and appropriate equipment for production (all sorts of 3D machine tools for metal, high-precision CNC machines and measuring equipment). I don’t know about the equipment, I recently read an interesting vacancy, they are looking for a person to develop in the field of AI to control heavy equipment. So there the requirements for the candidate were like a small development department and a few more managerial responsibilities. Salary for such pleasure as an ordinary developer in the region.
        It is not a problem to create a diesel engine in six months in the current scientific and technical progress. Who will count it?
        1. +1
          14 June 2023 07: 49
          Quote from barbos
          True, later in the comments it was noted that we didn’t give up on Brades’ tables, we’ll calculate quickly and accurately.

          wassat SERIOUSLY? belay Can you find a link if you don't mind?
          1. 0
            14 June 2023 18: 59
            Here is the article
            https://topwar.ru/213155-budem-proryvatsja-rossijskie-superkompjutery.html

            And there begemot20091 comments
    5. +3
      15 June 2023 01: 23
      Quote: air wolf
      It is necessary to convert it into an unmanned version of the Ka-50M with AI


      There is no AI. Moreover, there is not even a reliable algorithm for automatically recognizing targets on the battlefield. Everything that is being shown now and over which they are "drooling" is nothing more than complicated algorithms of technical vision.
  8. +5
    13 June 2023 07: 33
    The conclusion is quite simple - for the successful use of helicopters, first of all, there must be a LOT of them .. They must become an armament comparable to a tank. For while there are few expensive modern cars, the command will inevitably protect them. That negatively affects the effectiveness of support. As for losses - any of our losses are sad and regrettable. But a downed tank with a completely dead crew is perceived as the inevitability of war, and a downed helicopter as unacceptable damage .. Precisely because of their incomparability in price and quantity.

    The conclusion is simple - the armies of all countries began to play in pursuit of more and more advanced technology capabilities. Ignoring its price and mass production aspects. Thus - soon the aircraft will move into the category of the former battleships. Which, for example, the country has only four and which, on such an occasion, are cherished like the apple of an eye. At best - participating in one or two battles during the entire war. And they stand - like a full-blooded tank army each ..
  9. -5
    13 June 2023 07: 34
    Unlike aircraft, combat helicopters for fire support could be based in close proximity to the front line or combat zone. The helicopter does not need prepared airfields, a jump airfield is enough - a relatively flat area, fuel tanks and a small ammunition depot.

    I would like to see a video of how an attack helicopter took off from the ground with a full combat load. Are there any videos from SVO? Loaded Mi-24 takes off only from a running start.

    Proximity to the battlefield allows fire support helicopters to arrive at the battlefield faster than aircraft, which have a much higher speed. The lower speed of the helicopter and the possibility of hovering allows you to better identify targets, reduces the risks of "friendly fire".


    Something during the invasion of the RDK in the Belgorod region, only Mi-8s flew. And hovering allows you to better hit attack helicopters with small-caliber anti-aircraft guns. Moreover, the Mi-24 and Mi-35 cannot hover with a full combat load. I don't know about the Ka-52. And hovering in cover does not allow you to search for a target and monitor the battlefield.
    1. +3
      13 June 2023 12: 11
      Loaded Mi-24 takes off only from a running start.


      This is when the excess of the airfield is more than 1000 meters above sea level, the heat is over 30, full tanks, the entire BC and the cargo compartment are to the eyeballs, then yes, from a running start. We remove one of the factors and it takes off perfectly in a helicopter.

      Moreover, the Mi-24 and Mi-35 cannot hover with a full combat load.


      Why all of a sudden? They can, of course, is another matter - why?
  10. +1
    13 June 2023 07: 58
    Boeing AH-64 Apache ("Apache") - anti-tank combat helicopter, one of the best of its kind, too expensive and lightly armored to go on it in "frontal" attacks


    Mi-28N - Russian counterpart of the American AN-64 Apache, conceptually similar in many respects to it, but much better armored


    Can the Mi-28N be used for frontal attacks?

    If our attack helicopters used their firepower to the fullest, then there would be nothing left of the columns of the Armed Forces of Ukraine that are now advancing. And so, because of the usual opposition, they cannot use their weapons, stuffed into the car. And what kind of attack helicopter is this that cannot work over enemy territory, so there is no need to compare it with WWII attack aircraft. Moreover, since the second half of the war, IL-2s have been used less along the front line, saturated with MZA, and more and more along communications and artillery batteries in the rear.
    1. +1
      13 June 2023 08: 29
      Moreover, since the second half of the war, IL-2s have been used less along the front line, saturated with MZA, and more and more along communications and artillery batteries in the rear.

      Minus, what didn't you like? The use of IL-2 or unnecessary armor on the MI-28N?
      According to the use of IL-2
      This is from the award Georgy Timofeevich Beregovoy


      Attack pilot G.T. Beregovoi acted on communications, but he did not storm the front line, because it was like death. Find other award documents about attacking the front line by other pilots, for which, in principle, the IL-2 was created, but we learned to fight, so the armor on the IL-2 turned out to be an extra burden and it was used differently. Think, and don’t follow the stereotypes and front-line myths, how an attack aircraft pours machine-gun fire on infantry dug into the ground at the forefront and attacks anti-tank artillery, covered by Oerlikons and 20mm machine guns, for which they don’t give a damn about armor or not. All our documents.
    2. 0
      13 June 2023 22: 13
      Let's just say that the similarity of the Mi-28 with the "Apache" is an inept imitation of an outdated concept, supposedly a motionless hovering helicopter will "catch" tanks "from ambush". Of course, it cannot go into the frontal, just like the Su-34 cannot play the role of an attack aircraft. Now it seems that only the Ka-52M can break columns, thanks to the new optics and FCS.
      1. 0
        15 June 2023 01: 32
        Quote: d4rkmesa
        Now it seems that only the Ka-52M can break columns, thanks to the new optics and FCS.


        Yes, what are you saying? And how does he break the columns? Authority?
        The Ka-52 carries exactly the same weapon system as the Mi-28N. And NOTHING can do that the Mi-28N could not, since conceptually it is the Mi-28 on a coaxial scheme. I remind you that neither optics nor SLAs burn tanks. To do this, you need to shoot a rocket or a cannon. The cannon of the Ka-52 is a useless artifact, and the rocket weapon is the same Attack, which, due to inept integration from the Ka-52, works worse. The OLS parameters for both machines are practically the same. And the Kamovites, it seems, could not get the radar into the fire control system.
        You, like many others, are misled by the unbridled PR of the Ka-52, carried out by the Kamov lobby in the upper echelons of the RF Ministry of Defense through all the media. In real life, the facts of the use of guided weapons from the Ka-52 are many times more rare than the facts of the use of NURSs.
  11. -1
    13 June 2023 08: 14
    "... and from inefficient, senseless NAR launches from a nose-up "into milk"" ???
    Probably, the respected author has statistics on such a combat use of NAR .... so share it. And so - it's just another blah blah blah. I would like to note that only serious analytics and system analysis should form the basis for conclusions about the effectiveness of one or another method of combat use not only of combat helicopters, but also of any other type of weapons and military equipment.
  12. +3
    13 June 2023 09: 07
    Quote from Kuziming
    5. We need our own microchips, optics, the ability to complete lines with our own machines.
    We need machine tool

    I've been talking about this for 10 years
    back spoke smile.
    Now, as in the old Russian fun, we are again overcoming what we ourselves destroyed during perestroika and glasnost, our unforgettable helmsman Mikhal Sergeevich.
  13. 0
    13 June 2023 09: 12
    There is not even a mention of the Armored Piercer. NUR with an extended range for using helicopters as a mobile MLRS is quite a promising direction, the Britons from RUSI estimated the effectiveness of unguided munitions (yes, even from a cabriolet) against the enemy deployed in battle formations as very high.
    1. +1
      13 June 2023 10: 30
      Mobile MLRS? And what is the cost of such a departure in comparison with the low accuracy of shooting from a pitch-up? It's worth it? Wouldn't it be easier to work with Grad? As for increasing the firing range of URs, the question arises of increasing the magnification and quality of optics, coupled with the transition to newer thermal imagers.
  14. +1
    13 June 2023 09: 50
    I don't understand. How is it possible, without knowing the topic, to take on the composition of such a narrow-profile article? So in the end it turns out that either the bicycle is reinvented (AA tactics), or it turns out to be outright nonsense.
  15. +3
    13 June 2023 10: 59
    Helicopters so far justify themselves, let's see what happens next.
    I agree with some commentators on the site: we have one very old problem - INTELLIGENCE AND COMMUNICATION !!!
  16. +1
    13 June 2023 11: 15
    Quote from Kuziming
    We need our own microchips, optics, the ability to complete lines with our own machines.
    We need machine tool building and Mister Engineer.

    Not in this life. The train left. We must think how to do what we can, and not how good it would be to return to the old imperial times.
  17. +1
    13 June 2023 11: 17
    IMHO, just recently they trumpeted all the irons:
    That cast iron is a thing.
    Calibration shooting is cool.

    And suddenly this ....
    Or the author is wrong.
    Or you have to plant. But who will?

    Alas. No choice.
  18. +3
    13 June 2023 11: 31
    And I would also like to answer the question: Why in the Russian Federation are there two, or even three, attack helicopters duplicating each other?
    1. +5
      13 June 2023 11: 48
      Quote: Zaurbek
      And I would also like to answer the question: Why in the Russian Federation are there two, or even three, attack helicopters duplicating each other?

      And therefore, why in the USSR there were three MBTs, and in the Russian Federation - 2 Su-30s. Because our factories are sharpened for design bureaus. And if you order something that factories can produce quickly, then you will have to take cars of two design bureaus. And at the time of the order, helicopters were needed "yesterday".
      The second problem is that despite their long history, at the time of the order, the Mi-28 and Ka-52 were extremely raw machines. So they ordered both - at least one, but they will bring it. And in parallel, the furniture maker also pushed through an order for the Mi-35 - the latest modification of the old Mi-24 base. And it turned out to be 146% right - the 28th and 52nd turned out to be sky-ready even in 2014 (even bison from Torzhok had problems with the work of the NAR and UR), so the old Mi-35s had to work in the Crimea.
      If we take the naval analogy, then the Ka-52 and Mi-28 are 22350, and the Mi-35 is 11356. smile
      1. 0
        14 June 2023 09: 10
        We do not know how to conduct tenders and clearly identify requirements.
        1. 0
          14 June 2023 10: 13
          Quote: Zaurbek
          We do not know how to conduct tenders and clearly identify requirements.

          Rather, the industrial base does not meet the needs.
          In the terms of reference for the tender for helicopters, it was possible to write down a specific drummer (simply indicating a single-rotor or coaxial scheme as a mandatory requirement). And get half the cars. Best case scenario.
          And at worst, the design bureau-monopoly prescribed in the TOR, in the absence of competition, would simply score on the terms for fine-tuning and arrange a helicopter "polyment redoubt". Fortunately, the scheme has been worked out since Soviet times - take what you have, then we'll finish it, there won't be another anyway.
          1. 0
            15 June 2023 10: 29
            According to the mind, it was necessary first to make a tender for aircraft (Mi28 or Ka52) and separately for weapons and avionics.
    2. 0
      17 June 2023 02: 28
      Quote: Zaurbek
      And I would also like to answer the question: Why in the Russian Federation are there two, or even three, attack helicopters duplicating each other?


      So many times already answered and even you, it seems.
      For the Kamov Design Bureau, this is the only chance to maintain the design potential. If the Ka-52 is now removed from the troops, the design bureau will not have a production vehicle at all. Naval models are produced piece by piece, while other models fell victim to the stupidity of developers who relied on imported motors.
      But it is also impossible to leave only the Ka-52, since it will not take place as a combat helicopter, the Kamov Design Bureau had no idea and still has no idea that such an attack helicopter is for the Armed Forces. The Mil Design Bureau has gained vast experience in using the Mi-24 in strike versions. And he implements it in practice, within the framework of his production cooperation. As a result, no matter how the Kamovites puff up in matters of PR, their helicopter is a degraded copy of the Mi-28 on a coaxial scheme. That is, remove the Mi-28 from the troops and the development of attack helicopters in Russia will simply stop.
      Here we pull two cars.
  19. +1
    13 June 2023 11: 43
    Is this the author who wrote about the need to replace helicopters with a sports maize with a pair of Kornets? However, as in VO, opinions are changing. Just like a weathervane.
    1. -1
      13 June 2023 14: 19
      Is this the author who wrote about the need to replace helicopters with a sports maize with a pair of Kornets? However, as in VO, opinions are changing. Just like a weathervane

      No, not that one, I wrote it. And more and more members of the forum are inclined to this decision. Only not "Cornets", but simply ATGMs. You can also "Attack" which weighs about 50 kg with a launch container.

      The same example of an APU raid in the Belgorod region, the tanks drove back and no one was able to knock them out. If only there were light piston aircraft with low heat generation that negates the capture of the infrared head and high maneuverability against optical tracking, and not these hulking crocodiles flying like in slow motion. Airplanes that are more than two times smaller than helicopters and armed not with a salad of cannons, NARs and missiles with just a pair of ATGMs capable of taking off from an unpaved runway, then the tanks would have been destroyed. Yes, UAVs are good, but they are very slowly looking for a target, and in a situation like with DRGs, it is necessary to have very mobile and operationally used equipment with human control.
    2. 0
      14 June 2023 09: 11
      In the West they came to Tucano with weapons. The people are looking for, building ....
  20. +2
    13 June 2023 13: 01
    So, in order of reading the article:

    The loss of expensive combat vehicles from much cheaper weapons may lead to the conclusion that the era of combat helicopters is over,


    A tank can be destroyed with a cheap RPG, are we canceling tanks? But that's not all, a soldier can be killed with just one bullet, should soldiers also be abandoned?


    Based on this, in the twentieth century, the main specialization of a combat helicopter was formed - an anti-tank combat helicopter or a fire support combat helicopter. At the same time, over time, the difference in the design of an anti-tank combat helicopter and a fire support combat helicopter was increasingly erased, in fact, it began to be determined by the composition of weapons, which can be changed depending on the task.


    A combat helicopter and an anti-tank helicopter are two big differences.
    A combat helicopter carries a wide range of weapons and the fight against armored targets is only one of its tasks.
    An anti-tank helicopter, as a rule, is a light vehicle armed with 2 - 4 ATGMs of the "Tou" type. In fact, a dead end branch. Appeared in the "west" due to the sufficient number of manufacturers of light helicopters and the dominance of ATGMs controlled by wire. Everything ended with an experiment with the Mi-1 and the Malyutka ATGM, then the Phalanx went, which carried the Mi-4AV.

    The first is not to use combat helicopters over positions, and preferably over enemy territory in general, which is not under the control of its ground forces.


    Here is the opening. This wisdom was taught at the department of tactics at the school. Actually, combat helicopters were created for this, that aircraft with speed toast lost the opportunity to work along the leading edge.

    Secondly, combat helicopters must operate in the zone of domination, albeit partial, of their aviation.


    Another discovery, the complex use of forces and means.

    The third is a complete rejection of the use of unguided weapons, excluding cases of self-defense using an automatic gun.


    In general, the choice of weapons comes from the upcoming combat mission. As for the NAR, we should not forget that, with all the shortcomings thereof, the reaction time is much less than the ATGM, and the power is higher than that of the SPV.
    Well, the fact that in the NWO the main emphasis on NAR is simply explained, there are not enough expensive ATGMs.

    It's completely. Abandoning both suicidal attacks in the style of WWII attack aircraft to directly support troops with unguided weapons, and ineffective, senseless NAR launches from a roll-up "into milk".


    Suicidal attacks are when, despite the experience gained by the Soviet AA, they try to copy Western tactics by launching ATGMs and hovering modes.

    How then to support ground units?

    If we are talking about enemy armored vehicles, then by launching ATGMs from a safe distance, and if we are talking about manpower or fortifications, then with the help of cannon and rocket artillery, as well as kamikaze UAVs.


    Support everyone that flies through the air and crawls on the ground. But an indispensable condition is the massing of forces and means. And we only have enough equipment for parades.

    The saturation of the battlefield with air defense systems of all types excludes the operation of a helicopter as a means of fire support for ground units with unguided weapons. It is the anti-tank orientation of combat helicopters that should become the main one, not counting their episodic use for solving special tasks.


    Nothing excludes with the competent organization of the battle. And not only do we have few helicopters themselves, so by the end of the nineties all experienced pilots were squeezed out of the army. There was a generation gap and the loss of all developments.
    1. -3
      13 June 2023 13: 51
      Here is the opening. This wisdom was taught at the department of tactics at the school. Actually, combat helicopters were created for this, that aircraft with speed toast lost the opportunity to work along the leading edge.

      And which planes from attack aircraft worked along the front line?
      If this was taught at a military school, then I am not surprised at the current level of officers and generals.
      Read excerpts from Georgy Timofeevich Beregovoy's award lists, where did they get the idea that attack aircraft stormed the front line ???



      "... Beregovoy made 18 successful sorties ... comrade Beregovoy, with his bold assault raids, inflicted fear and huge damage on enemy equipment ...shooting with machine-gun and cannon fire convoys, moving along the roads and repelling fighter attacks."


      "Since September 1, 1943, on the Voronezh Front in the Kharkov and Kiev directions, the pilots of the squadron made 130 sorties. During this period, the pilots destroyed: 118 vehicles ... 17 tanks, pr-ka, 4 artillery batteries ... destroyed 8 railroads .cars with ammunition and up to 300 manpower of the enemy ... On September 18, 1943, Comrade Beregovoy led a group with IL-2 and, with his skillful and proactive technique, struck at the retreating motorized units and manpower of the pr-ka at the Priluki point -RUDOVKA, destroyed up to 10 wagons with ammunition and up to a platoon of manpower.
      September 20, 1943 comrade Beregovoy led five Il-s to destroy the motor-mechanical part on the way to KOCHARLIK-RZHISHCHEV and from a height of 1000 (possibly a typo -100 meters) -300 meters with his persistent and skillful skill inflicted severe damage ... "

      Attack aircraft did not work along the front line. Artillery hit stationary targets at the forefront and bombers bombed. And attack aircraft attacked moving targets on the roads and in marching columns, as well as artillery batteries in the course of operational counter-battery combat, and all behind the front line. The then officers and generals were smarter than the current ones, so it turns out?
      So which planes stopped working along the front line due to speed and were replaced by helicopters? What kind of noodles did they hang on your ears at the school? We also had such a colonel in military history who, talking about the Battle on the Ice, waved his arms so much that Alexander Nevsky himself would envy his skill.
      Read the documents on the Great Patriotic War, the more they became available, although under Shoigu they began to impose restrictions due to the fact that many myths began to crumble, such as about fines, for example, in which he believed.
      1. +1
        13 June 2023 15: 20
        And which planes from attack aircraft worked along the front line?


        First, I talked about airplanes.
        Secondly, maybe in your parallel reality the IL-2 did not attack the front line, but in ours they had to do this, although this is one of the most difficult tasks.

        If this was taught at a military school, then I am not surprised at the current level of officers and generals.


        Wow, you just undertook to evaluate the quality of the programs of Soviet military schools. wassat Missed a pill?

        Read excerpts from Georgy Timofeevich Beregovoy's award lists, where did they get the idea that attack aircraft stormed the front line ???


        Based on several award lists, you evaluate the work of all attack aircraft.
        Do you have any idea how award lists are filled out?

        Attack aircraft did not work along the front line. Artillery hit stationary targets at the forefront and bombers bombed.


        This is generally a fairy tale. Your bombers are on the front line, which means they can work, and you deny this right to lighter attack aircraft. By the way, cutting edge, not only stationary targets.

        The then officers and generals were smarter than the current ones, so it turns out?


        It was the people who taught me then. The same tactics textbook edited by Skomorokhov. Yes

        So which planes stopped working along the front line due to speed and were replaced by helicopters? What kind of noodles did they hang on your ears at the school?


        Can you still call the orderly, huh? It's summer, it's hot...

        We also had such a colonel in military history who, talking about the Battle on the Ice, waved his arms so much that Alexander Nevsky himself would envy his skill.


        I don’t know what you had there, I graduated from a normal school. request

        Read the documents on the Great Patriotic War, the more they became available, although under Shoigu they began to impose restrictions due to the fact that many myths began to crumble, such as about fines, for example, in which he believed.


        Something tells me that I know the tactics of the SHA during the Second World War much better than you. lol
        1. 0
          13 June 2023 15: 46
          And which planes from attack aircraft worked along the front line?


          First, I talked about airplanes.
          Secondly, maybe in your parallel reality the IL-2 did not attack the front line, but in ours they had to do this, although this is one of the most difficult tasks.


          What am I talking about, tanks?
          And how can you prove that the IL-2 worked at the forefront, only a request for documents. I showed awards on Beregovoy.
          1. 0
            13 June 2023 15: 49
            First, I talked about airplanes.
            Secondly, maybe in your parallel reality the IL-2 did not attack the front line, but in ours they had to do this, although this is one of the most difficult tasks.


            Whose words are these?

            Actually, combat helicopters were created for this, that aircraft with speed toast lost the opportunity to work along the leading edge.
            1. -2
              13 June 2023 15: 59
              It was the people who taught me then. The same tactics textbook edited by Skomorokhov.

              Please quote from the textbook of an air marshal, a former fighter about attacking the front line.
              I will help you.
              I will quote

              The main objects of action of attack aircraft on the battlefield were enemy tanks in pre-battle and combat formations and artillery in firing positions.

              Troops in trenches and communication passages were hit mainly by small fragmentation bombs, as well as cannon and machine-gun fire, strong points - by targeted dropping of single high-explosive bombs from a height of 500 - 600 m.

              Regarding the second quote. How is it possible to hit infantry in trenches from a gentle dive from machine guns and small-caliber cannons? The IL-2 did not possess aimed bombing at all. Skomorokhov was a fighter pilot.

              The main losses of attack aircraft were over the front line, therefore, from the 43rd year, they practically abandoned the stupid tactics of attacking infantry dug into the ground under the influence of MZA.
              I even specially posted a description from the award goals for the attack squadron of the Il-2 G.T. Coastal.
              1. 0
                13 June 2023 16: 02
                I don’t know what you had there, I graduated from a normal school.

                I got it. Got the templates in my head. Good schools also teach you to think.
                1. 0
                  13 June 2023 16: 28
                  The then officers and generals were smarter than the current ones, so it turns out?



                  It was the people who taught me then. The same tactics textbook edited by Skomorokhov


                  During the war they were privates, sergeants and lieutenants. Maximum
                  captains like Skomorokhov.
                  1. 0
                    13 June 2023 16: 33
                    Based on several award lists, you evaluate the work of all attack aircraft.
                    Do you have any idea how award lists are filled out?


                    Find other awards. And I know how photofixation was organized for attack aircraft pilots, the bonus depended on this, but you don’t seem to know how pedantically the awards were written and the railway data was filled.
                    1. -1
                      14 June 2023 00: 06
                      Find other awards. And I know how photofixation was organized for attack aircraft pilots, the bonus depended on this, but you don’t seem to know how pedantically the awards were written and the railway data was filled.

                      You do not know the features of filling out flight documentation just you. Because it has never been done.
                      The same applies to awards, they do not always correspond to reality. For there is such a factor as the combat department, which has its own logic.
                      It will be necessary to somehow get to the military registration and enlistment office, to screen their awards. lol
                  2. 0
                    14 June 2023 00: 07
                    During the war they were privates, sergeants and lieutenants. Maximum
                    captains like Skomorokhov.


                    And what, you want to say that they turned out to be bad generals?
                2. 0
                  13 June 2023 23: 59
                  I got it. Got the templates in my head. Good schools also teach you to think.


                  This is clearly not for you to judge, in the field of aviation you have only been honored with nonsense.
              2. 0
                13 June 2023 23: 58
                Please quote from the textbook of an air marshal, a former fighter about attacking the front line.
                I will help you.
                I will quote


                Give a link to the source. For there is an opinion that you stupidly cheat. Nevertheless.

                enemy tanks in pre-battle and fighting orders


                Troops in trenches and communications were hit mainly by small fragmentation bombs, as well as cannon and machine-gun fire, strong points - targeted dropping of single high-explosive bombs from a height of 500 - 600 m.


                Isn't that cutting edge for you? Are you an hour not a non-commissioned officer's widow, since you flogged yourself like that? lol

                Regarding the second quote. How is it possible to hit infantry in trenches from a gentle dive from machine guns and small-caliber cannons?


                Elementary, gentle dive, it is up to 30 degrees. Plus, the attack is not on the forehead, but at an angle to the trench. And if along, then you can’t hide at the bottom at all.
                You would not climb into topics where you have no idea at all.

                The IL-2 did not possess aimed bombing at all.


                Stop raving. IL-2 did not have a bomber sight for medium and high altitudes. On small and extremely small ones, a sight for the SPV is enough. Actually, from 500 meters, but with a canopy of a dive and a "boot", you can definitely bomb it. I know this for sure, unlike you. lol

                Skomorokhov was a fighter pilot.


                And what, is it news for you that one of the tasks of the IA is to work on the NC?

                The main losses of attack aircraft were over the front line, therefore, from the 43rd year, they practically abandoned the stupid tactics of attacking infantry dug into the ground under the influence of MZA.


                Again you are past.
                Firstly, MZA is not a cutting edge, but a close tactical depth and beyond.
                Secondly, they abandoned ground attack at extremely low altitudes, which reduced losses from small arms fire. The IA had already recovered and could provide cover.

                I even specially posted a description from the award goals for the attack squadron of the Il-2 G.T. Coastal.


                Which is not enough to evaluate the work of SA.
            2. 0
              13 June 2023 23: 36
              Whose words are these?


              Mine of course. It's just that you, due to your limited horizons, did not understand them.
          2. 0
            13 June 2023 23: 35
            What am I talking about, tanks?


            And the fact that planes are not only IL-2 is your mind not enough to understand?

            And how can you prove that the IL-2 worked at the forefront, only a request for documents.


            And how can you prove that the IL-2 worked at the forefront, only a request for documents.


            No, sick, the work of the IL-2 at the forefront, this is a well-known fact. It is you who declare that this did not happen, and here you are proving it. lol

            I showed awards on Beregovoy.


            You brought fragments of awards, only one pilot. And based on this, you draw a conclusion about the work of the entire attack aviation.
            In this case, bring the premium (full) of all attack aircraft pilots. lol
    2. 0
      14 June 2023 09: 59
      With a tank is not a good analogy, in my opinion.
  21. -1
    13 June 2023 15: 04
    Moreover, it is necessary to completely abandon the use of unguided weapons from modern combat aircraft - even when bombing bearded terrorists in Syria

    ---------------------

    The author went completely wrong somewhere. To bomb barmaley with cast iron over the affected area of ​​MANPADS - in terms of price-quality ratio, it can’t be better. The accuracy of cast iron with modern sights is no worse than that of the notorious and useless calibers.
    1. 0
      13 June 2023 22: 21
      Again, these tales of cast iron and barmaley. "Modern" sights of this type have been used for about 40 years, the Ministry of Defense promoted the "Hephaestus" when it became possible for them to cover causal places due to the failure of the modernization of the Su-24. Regarding the comparison with the "Caliber" - this only says that no one drew conclusions from the "Syrian" firing, and therefore they turned out to be useless.
  22. +1
    13 June 2023 16: 23
    nothing is said about target designation for helicopters, about the time (how many instances "approval" must go through) spent on providing support or destroying armored vehicles ...
    namely, on-line target designation will provide not only a "picture" for the media, but also the results of using rotorcraft!
  23. 0
    13 June 2023 16: 38
    Firstly, where did the author get the idea that the NARs go into milk from the cabling? If this were so, no one would send turntables with them. I have read comments from pilots who say they are now putting the package in a 50 m long ellipse at 6 km distance. LMS allows this.
    Secondly, the massive appearance of MANPADS is a signal for a massive reduction in their targets, down to drones. Now the role of helicopters should gradually move to automatic drones. Both kamikaze and reusable, but small. Large drones or helicopters can serve as queens for small ones. In this way, holes in the defense can be closed quickly.
    1. +2
      13 June 2023 17: 32
      who say they are now putting the package in an ellipse 50 m long at 6 km distance. LMS allows this.

      Tales of the Vienna Woods.
      1. +1
        14 June 2023 00: 10
        Tales of the Vienna Woods.


        That's for sure, such a spread when shooting in a series and from 2000 meters is obtained. And it’s not about sights, this is the property of NAR.
  24. 0
    13 June 2023 17: 48
    Helicopters can dodge missile attacks, the missile flies fast and often cannot turn quickly, this should be used
    Helicopters must be used with drones, then there will be an effect. When the drone strikes armored vehicles, all air defenses will immediately be quickly detected. Just counting where it came from
    It is necessary to use a swarm, then it will be difficult to hit an airplane or helicopter
    The most effective swarm of drones is to start using helicopters. In a helicopter, the pilot can specify strike squares
    We have a huge aviation industry, only completely different people rushed to build drones.
    All this is a Western-controlled army. She must be defeated. The West of the Armed Forces of Ukraine supplied funds against aviation, so the operation failed
    The operation is underway, and our army is not sending everything new to the SVO, I recently read that not all T-90 breakthrough tanks went to their own, military units are sending the old T-72
    Helicopters can quite easily inflict troops on attacking formations, they will not have time for air defense there
    1. 0
      13 June 2023 22: 26
      Helicopters have their own advantages - yes, outdated missiles are often smeared on them. Target capture against the background of the surface is difficult, less EPR. I read a report for the US Congress - Apaches are many times cheaper to maintain (less man-hours are spent) than any fighters, and reliability is higher. So they will have their own niche.
  25. +3
    13 June 2023 18: 44
    Quote: A vile skeptic
    who say they are now putting the package in an ellipse 50 m long at 6 km distance. LMS allows this.

    Tales of the Vienna Woods.

    In the second chapter of the collection of fairy tales - a message about 18 unsuccessful launches of MANPADS on a helicopter.
  26. 0
    13 June 2023 20: 32
    Why did the author take that bunks from cabriolet work into milk? Another thing is that 80mm bunks are simply too weak to defeat a dug-in enemy ...
    At the same time, there are a lot of when bunks are effective. For example, to cover columns on the march from enemy ambushes. There is no serious field fortification in this case. To intercept columns on the march, bunks also work great ....
    Another thing is that it is clear to a fool that gradually, with the development of technology, impact turntables will gradually be replaced by UAVs.
  27. 0
    13 June 2023 21: 00
    Helicopters are a great solution for destroying tanks, but this is yesterday, UAVs are not yet developed as they should. Development of technologies in the process.
  28. 0
    13 June 2023 21: 08
    Here I watched a review by the author of Hackmyth about Ka 52
    Interestingly, the opinion of experts, is it true, as he says?
    Cabin reservation - absent. Side windows are not armored, etc...
  29. +1
    13 June 2023 21: 47
    The tanks have "anti-missiles" - KAZ - an active protection complex.
    And for helicopters, is it possible something like this
    "to swindle" ?? ))
    1. 0
      13 June 2023 22: 04
      Do you remember the beautiful videos of KRET about missiles that go around a helicopter? I keep looking and waiting, when will they appear?
    2. -1
      14 June 2023 00: 23
      The tanks have "anti-missiles" - KAZ - an active protection complex.
      And for helicopters, is it possible something like this
      "to swindle" ?? ))


      Systems that hit a rocket with shrapnel are definitely not suitable. It is necessary to fence some kind of mini anti-aircraft installation based on the same GSHG with radar detection and automatic guidance. In the era of the same Tu-16, such an option was considered as the shooting of anti-aircraft missiles by airborne installations. But it all rested that the shooter simply could not have time to react.
  30. 0
    14 June 2023 10: 25
    The message of the article completely contradicts what Roman Skomorokhov wrote about combat helicopters. The funny thing is that Skomorokhov wrote an article about the low efficiency of combat helicopters the day before the onset of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Although even before that there were many videos only from the Ka-52, on which it was possible to see the destruction of all kinds of equipment by missiles. Now, according to Lostarmour, about 50 Ka-52 guided missile attacks on Ukrainian armored vehicles have been published in the last few days alone.
    1. +2
      16 June 2023 22: 32
      The buffoon is still a generalist with a narrow grip
  31. +1
    16 June 2023 22: 31
    The article is VERY, VERY weak.
    "complete rejection of the use of unguided weapons" - WHY IS A FUCK???????
    Dear, if you want to hear a REALLY ADEQUATE opinion - listen to the streams on the channel of Kirill Fedorov with one of the KA-52 pilots. And among other things, you will find out - NURs lay down very tightly and accurately
  32. 0
    24 July 2023 20: 52
    Judging by the statement of the author of the article that "combat helicopters are one of the most effective means to counter enemy armored vehicles", apparently, it is necessary to improve the means of electronic warfare and electronic warfare for a specific aircraft and create an aircraft of "combat cover" for assault and landing helicopters on the battlefield with parallel work on the tactics of using helicopters on the battlefield ... And we will be happy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  33. 0
    26 July 2023 17: 30
    On the directions of the main attack of the armored forces, one can expect the presence of enemy helicopters with anti-tank weapons on board. It is relatively easy to stop: in such directions, it is necessary to launch kamikaze drones in front of the tank forces, which will attack such helicopters. This is a small operational depth, up to 10 km. That's it, the helicopters have arrived. Attack helicopters have no means of anti-drone warfare, and special electronic warfare boards are not found at every turn. Just like hell to aspic.
  34. 0
    2 September 2023 21: 06
    I myself flew on the mi28 back in Syria - in my opinion, the mi28 night hunter was inferior in terms of performance to the Apache longbow, I will tell you something - firstly, the missile attack has a range of 6 km and the target must be held visually while being in the enemy air defense zone all this time. The Apache hits from 16 km based on the fire-and-forget principle. secondly, the 30mm cannon stands on the hunter stupidly from the BMP 2 and with each shot the helicopter shifts by 1 degree and it must be brought back. the Americans specially developed a cannon for a helicopter with lightweight aluminum cartridge cases and their ammunition load is many times larger. further helmet at night firing backlight as welding blinds the eyes during shots, I remember the developers promised to finalize but xs. whether they did it or not, there were also little things, but these are the main ones .. for this, let me bow out.
    1. 0
      3 September 2023 23: 12
      Are you a MI-28 pilot? Can I ask your opinion about this helicopter? In the West, I always read reviews about Kamov. However, I also accept your assessment of this other helicopter. Thanks l.