Good news for young engineers

71
Good news for young engineersOn the domestic labor market, it seems, is forming a new trend. After several years, the former prestige of engineering professions began to slowly but surely recover. Restoration of industry and related industries has directly affected the needs of employers: a good engineer is now, as they say, torn off with his hands. At the same time, the growing demand for designers and designers has a number of not very good "side effects", but first things first.

Large recruitment organizations, including job search / staffing websites, provide remarkable statistics. Over the past five years, the number of engineering jobs, depending on the region, has increased three to five times. But at the beginning of this five-year period, in the 2007 year, all the talk about the need to increase the prestige of engineering specialties looked like conversations and not all took them seriously. As we see, further events put everything in its place and after the “era of economists” a new period of increased demand for designers, mechanics, engineers, etc. began. A direct consequence of the specific views of five years ago was the fact that, at the present time, technical colleges simply cannot meet all the needs of employers. Because of this, commercial organizations have to “lure” potential employees with high wages.

It is worth noting that the size of the salaries offered varies considerably depending on the region and the specific organization. So, often a young professional without work experience can count, at most, on a salary the size of a couple of minimum wages. At the same time, in some ads there are many times large numbers, up to 30-40 thousand rubles per month. The best deals are usually related to design specialties. Unfortunately, the similar order of figures is valid only for some regions, first of all, central ones. In other areas and territories, the salary of a young engineer may not exceed ten thousand rubles. In some ways, the fact that the salaries of engineers in most regions of the country are at the level of average indicators by regions, and in some it exceeds them, looks pleasant.

The main reason for increasing interest in young engineers is their qualifications and ability to adapt to current tasks. Profile forums are simply overwhelmed with complaints about good specialists of senior and retirement age, who, with all their knowledge and skills, can no longer master new design technologies. The youth has no such problems. But the lack of learning difficulties is compensated by other disadvantages. Recruiters say that finding a really good young specialist is not the easiest thing. Often, the announcement with large numbers in the “salary” column does not respond to the people who need the organization. In the best case, the personnel officer will be able to find a good specialist, having considered three or four candidates. There are several reasons for this. First, in the current issues of technical universities, there are often people who are not well versed in their specialty. The low prestige of engineering professions, observed several years ago, sometimes led to the fact that studying for designers, technologists, etc. There were yesterday's school troeters who did not want to join the army. It is not difficult to guess how "good" specialists they will become.

The second reason for the selection of personnel concerns not only professional skills, but also, if I may say so, related ones. The current engineer must have a certain understanding of the procurement of components, accounting and control, as well as, in some cases, be able to negotiate. In addition, a modern engineer, if he expects a high salary, is simply obliged to know foreign languages ​​at a good level. The latter requirement is due to the fact that the most interesting salary offers are usually made by large international companies. It is quite clear that for a full-fledged work with foreign colleagues a young specialist should speak at least English. Thus, to get a job with a good salary, the current engineer is no longer enough just to graduate and just get a diploma.

The current trend with increasing demand for engineers still looks ambiguous. It is too early to draw any serious and far-reaching conclusions. First of all, doubts arise because of the specific appearance of the trend. The fact is that the current young graduates came in those years when the prestige of engineering professions left much to be desired. Now there is every reason to believe that in the near future the situation in the labor market will affect the views of applicants and they will choose engineering specialties. However, the youth who entered this year will begin full-fledged labor activity only by the end of the decade. So far it is impossible to say exactly how the engineering sector of the labor market will look like at this time. It is possible that an increase in the number of applicants for vacancies will affect the proposed salaries in the direction of reducing them, but the opposite development cannot be ruled out.

Anyway, the domestic labor market has finally begun to restructure itself in accordance with the obvious demands of the time. The main thing is that the current trend should continue and there should be no serious failures in the future. Due to the problems of recent years in the set of serious design organizations, including defense ones, the average age of employees has significantly increased. The main reason for this was an insufficient number of young people. A gradual increase in average wages for young designers and designers may well increase the influx of people into the industry, which will have a beneficial effect on the state of the industry. However, for this, those responsible for personnel selection should take their work seriously, otherwise increased attention to young people will not have the desired effect.


On the materials of the sites:
http://lenta.ru/
http://trud.ru/
http://superjob.ru/
http://hh.ru/
http://job.ru/
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  1. Brother Sarych
    +3
    11 December 2012 08: 56
    What is the use of these boring old men, the oversized bridegroom is ridiculous! The whole world for the young and zealous, the whole world for them?
    Well, yes, yes, the old engineers are stubborn and stubborn, they don’t want to learn anything new, they just knock their hooves impatiently in the young and wait for them to free their places ...
    Not the first time we read this ...
    From another song already, but no less relevant:
    He lives in the wilderness of the taiga for two hundred years, but there has been no change of youth, a reliable change of youth!
    Author. take off your pink glasses! Nothing is changing yet, God forbid, to change!
    1. sv-sakh
      +15
      11 December 2012 09: 19
      Well, do not tell me, in the majority of research institutes and research institutes known to me, over the past 10 years the staff has become younger beyond recognition.
      But the tower staff turnover is precisely because the RFP engineer is ridiculously small .. And somehow it doesn’t attract the most prestigious profession :)
      The image of ITR is discredited by kinship in organizations, continuity, low salaries and so far - none of this has changed. The quality of knowledge has fallen dramatically because old cadres have retired, mature cadres have gone into business, and young people gaining experience are leaving faster than this small experience of even newer youth can pass ... This all leads to the fact that cadres are getting younger, but this is even worse than if they were aging.

      What to do? To restore the prestige of engineering, trimming managers and other living boots.
      For example, and for us, for 10 technologists - 25 GUIs, who essentially do nothing, and for objects, for the most part, the leading technological department ... For that matter, he will understand ...
      And how many other quality management services, financially, economically, and planning departments that receive more than those who are directly involved in project activities and who actually earn money from the organization.
      And there would have been at least some kind of exhaust from the work, the objects overlap one another in time or vice versa people are sitting on the ceiling spitting .. here's the planning with management.
      And so everywhere in the country.
      Who wants to realize themselves in such conditions?
      1. +2
        11 December 2012 13: 13
        Quote: sv-sakh
        Well, don’t tell me, in the majority of research institutes and research institutes known to me, over the past 10 years the staff has become younger beyond recognition. But the staff turnover is just because the ZP engineer is ridiculously small .. And somehow it doesn’t attract the most prestigious profession :)

        - just slightly touched this topic on the next branch - where Khazin outlined the trends. There is a chance to dramatically increase production, because in the West it is already dangerous to invest in London real estate and yachts. But Russia itself is not very ready to accept investments in its production - after all, a factory is not only land, buildings and equipment. These are both competent engineering and skilled workers. And we have the Ministry of Education of "effective managers", sales specialists and lawyers with economists spawned - ((((((. It is understandable, in the years of compradorshchina, the foreign companies only needed them to conquer the Russian market, so the Ministry of Education spawned damn, continues to produce them!) them above the roof. The situation has changed, an urgent need to react.
    2. +3
      11 December 2012 09: 33
      Quote: Brother Sarich
      Author. take off your pink glasses! Nothing is changing yet, God forbid, to change!

      Perhaps I’ll agree with Brother Sarych. Of course, I don’t know how in other regions, I regularly look at job advertisements in our region. A mechanic for the production of 20 thousand with work experience is good if you live right there, and if from another settlement within the region there is no sense, half you give for housing. The problem is much deeper than it seems. The distortion of the economy, the actual chaos of the private owner, the separation of universities from enterprises in the process of training a specialist, the commercial basis of training.
      1. +1
        11 December 2012 10: 34
        Quote: baltika-18
        Perhaps I agree Brother Sarych.
        Welcome all. We have about half of the youth research institute (I think this from 25 to 35 years). The guys are interested in working, but with earnings, those who rent the designer category on 2 in the middle with a premium receive 35000 rubles. So hold on for now. Although some run to earn money, it is significant that of those who escaped, most of them are asked to return back after a year.
        1. +4
          11 December 2012 11: 36
          Quote: Mechanic
          Greetings to all.

          I also welcome you. Evgeny, judging by the nickname, is a mechanical engineer by qualification. I, too. In 2001, after moving from Siberia to the central region, I looked for work in my specialty for 5 years, it didn’t work. I had to open my own business in a related area, manufacturing and installation metalwork. My specialization is machinery and apparatus for chemical production, to be honest, I miss big chemistry, although it might seem silly to someone.
          1. +1
            11 December 2012 13: 41
            Quote: baltika-18
            Evgeny, judging by the nickname, is a mechanical engineer by qualification. I, too. In 2001, after moving from Siberia to the central region, for 5 for years I looked for work in my specialty, it did not work.
            I am hydraulically educated. And more precisely UPI Teplofak. Physical properties of liquids. To be honest, I only remember the properties of alcohol in different proportions.
            Quote: baltika-18
            . I had to open my own business in the related area, manufacturing and installation of metal structures. My specialization is machinery and apparatus for chemical production, to be honest, I miss big chemistry, although it might seem silly to someone.
            Well, in St. Petersburg, you can’t live without your own business. In Yekaterinburg, everything is a little different.
        2. Piran
          0
          12 December 2012 17: 11
          If it’s no secret what kind of research institute and what kind of region, region? himself from Samara-Tolyatti
      2. +4
        11 December 2012 12: 46
        baltika-18,
        All right, you say Nikolai. The problem, for example, shipyards in St. Petersburg, is familiar to me and very similar to that described. Local young specialists, in such a big city as Peter, do not want to pay for the proposed salary for the plant or design bureau, and whoever gives them the most will have no experience. Nonresident students might agree, and the housing problem immediately puts an end to it. KB is particularly affected.
        1. +3
          11 December 2012 14: 18
          Ross
          Hi colleague.
          The fact that almost all of them are OJSCs, interferes with the problem of shipyards in St. Petersburg. private shops. And the creation of the Shipbuilding Corporation is not a panacea. Big uncles with big salaries are sitting in it. What young specialists are there? The only enterprise that has not lost its potential is the Admiral. And its director Alexandrov. He did not privatize the plant and has always been a state-owned enterprise. But the situation in OAO is as follows: there is no one to work, they don’t pay money, and at the end of the year, the director and the other scum get bonuses of 30 (thirty) million rubles !!! I answer for my words! And where does the program for the development of production, some young engineers, the development of new technology, when so much dough is at stake! Plus kickbacks to the Ministry of Defense in the distribution of orders. Knowledgeable people say that there they take up to 30%!
          And young engineers are hostages of the situation. And the average salary in the industry as the average temperature in the hospital: who has fever and who is already in the morgue - and on average 36.6.
          1. +1
            11 December 2012 14: 24
            Quote: Very smart
            OJSC, i.e. private shops
            Don't you understand that Open Joint-Stock Companies are all private shops? As it does not fit our OJSC Research Institute "Gidropriborov and Automatics" so the state. And so the St. Petersburg shipbuilders have 53% of the shares of the state. Apparently "helluva lot clever" to judge the ownership of the enterprise by abbreviations.
            1. vyatom
              0
              12 December 2012 16: 11
              Is Almaz completely private on Petrogradka?
          2. +1
            11 December 2012 18: 34
            Very smart,
            Greetings! Aleksandrov once sent me to a master. That was a long time ago. It seemed to me that now he seems to be no longer at the helm?
            1. +2
              12 December 2012 17: 01
              Ross
              Now at the helm is his son Aleksandrov Jr. Under my father’s sensitive guidance and with his connections, everything is fine there. And people are happy. And the Admiral is the only enterprise that has retained vocational schools and takes students for scholarships with subsequent employment.

              Mechanic
              Private shops! And the state’s share, of course, is. But how are the rights exercised in the execution of the relevant officials - you explain or guess yourself? They are fine.
          3. Piran
            0
            12 December 2012 17: 16
            Yes, no if 36.6. Most likely 22.2 smile
  2. +3
    11 December 2012 09: 01
    Finally, one good news for the morning. It’s good that they realized the common truth that without good engineering personnel, the country is doomed. In my opinion, one material incentive is to achieve nothing, a comprehensive reform is needed, in this area this also applies to housing, the creation of necessary conditions for the creative development of young scientists.
  3. +5
    11 December 2012 09: 02
    Undoubtedly, it is pleasing that there is an interest in engineering personnel ... However, from my own experience I will say that recently there has been a tendency to hire foreign specialists and not with the highest level of proficiency in the specialty and of course with a "foreign" salary. I know companies that hire not the best "foreigners" as heads of design departments and select ours with the lowest salaries for them. Nowadays, few people will go to engineers for a penny ... that's why the appropriate contingent is selected ... Foreigners are not interested in creating strong design collectives in Russia. THEY DO NOT NEED COMPETITION! Therefore, in every possible way, they try to get rid of our guys who really want to learn the business and work. Therefore, in the departments there are mostly "modellers". Those. those who can only make 3-D models with foreign products, but cannot develop them themselves. Thus, even the remaining guys can no longer think constructively, but only copy ... One of the vivid examples is DKS CJSC, which has a production in Tver and an office in Moscow. There, domestic designer specialists with experience were completely ousted and replaced by a foreigner with "modellers ". However, there are plenty of other examples ...
    The state should rely specifically on our specialists and prevent foreigners from ousting Russians from their own jobs. I myself have worked and work with designers as foreigners ... Frankly speaking, there are our guys who foreign designers do not fit into soles. Yes, and we have more ideas ... Yes, they just terribly love to break their hats in front of a foreigner, but in vain ... Apparently they forgot who launched the first person in COSMOS ... and whether we were the first to do this ..
    1. +3
      11 December 2012 09: 25
      rennim,
      Yes, if youth knew, if old age could! what
      Young people want and can sometimes work, but let's say we have 30 thousand for them is no longer money! There are few real creators, and the rest are looking for where they pay more. And this is throwing and lack of experience. Plus, there is a complete lack of any responsibility and respect for workers ! It all depends on the owner of the enterprise and its personnel policy. I think we are starting to learn to walk again!
    2. sv-sakh
      +2
      11 December 2012 09: 46
      I confirm ... We work in Ameri on a number of international projects.
      You look at their PSD and think - "This cannot work !! It is not at ease in the bark !!"
      You look at what they have built and what we have built over the fence according to our correct, workable projects and you think "HOW BL .. !!! HOW CAN THIS BE? !!"

      It’s not enough to design - it’s also necessary to implement ... without cuts it is desirable ...
      So, from my own experience I’ll say that everything in Russia is wonderful, there are still cadres who can come up with an idea .. There are no more cadres who can realize this idea without distorting and stealing the most valuable.

      By the way, after 7 years, on these very projects of the Americans, which even then seemed to me wrong, I already have more than 10 orders in the department for recalculation of structures and technology as a whole .. The old mistakes of Amer were revealed ..
      And who came to us here to guide them? Former bulldozers and immediately to senior positions with royalties of five zeros and not rubles at all ...
  4. +2
    11 December 2012 09: 11
    Why bother with simple truths. I know a lot of former engineers who left production for business, are not going to return to a penny again, and there are almost no production left.
  5. anchonsha
    -1
    11 December 2012 09: 17
    The more industry will be in private hands, the faster Russia will be recreated. Only the right legislative framework is needed for the normal operation of private enterprises. And if the participation of officials in industry is great, and not only here, but also in other industries, then we will not succeed. Officials will crush any undertakings if they don’t have revenues in their pocket. And private production will recreate its cadres. The owner will not steal at home
    1. +4
      11 December 2012 09: 22
      Perhaps ... if only the private owner will be without "foreign capital interference". I repeat ... foreigners do not need smart Russian engineers, they only need assembly production without the possibility of creating design departments ... and engineering centers. They don't need competitors.
      1. +1
        11 December 2012 10: 25
        Young people regularly run away from our research institute to Samsung and lg (just for work by designers and technologists). The salary there is immediately 2-2,5 times higher. Truth and work hard there, without fools.
        Although the reverse trend has been outlined, two have already returned, but already to the places of sector leaders.
        Something like that.
        1. Gavrn
          -1
          11 December 2012 19: 04
          If not a secret, where do you work?
      2. vyatom
        +3
        11 December 2012 12: 20
        It's like that. An engineer doesn't sound proud for a long time. Now they are trying to restore something, but nobody wants it for a penny. And the leaders think like this: if you don't like it, quit. So we have what we have. Some managers are "effective: all around.
    2. +1
      11 December 2012 11: 33
      The private trader doesn’t even want to list for training his staff what the hell is going up, at this stage it’s just faster to feed
  6. webdog
    +8
    11 December 2012 09: 28
    The current engineer must have a certain idea of ​​the procurement of components, accounting and control, as well as, in some cases, and be able to negotiate

    an engineer must first of all have a lot of related knowledge, and not study in the American (one-vector) system and pass exams, not the Unified State Exam ...
    1. FID
      +13
      11 December 2012 09: 46
      Greetings, namesake! The article is written on the research of headliners. Required with knowledge of the language - this is clearly for foreigners. Required with the knowledge of special design tools (meaning computer design) - of course it is important, but the main thing is the idea, and the technician can also translate into drawings. An engineer is a thinking person who knows how to use the materials and knowledge of his predecessors and, based on them, creates something new.
      1. webdog
        +1
        11 December 2012 10: 16
        said to the point. there’s nothing to add to your post (((
        to create new is pleasure ...
        I wonder why civilian cars our engineers do not create and did not create in the heyday of engineering?
        hello to you too!))
        1. FID
          +4
          11 December 2012 10: 41
          Now Japanese people buy these cars for money and remake them into a family minibus!
          1. Piran
            0
            12 December 2012 19: 33
            I live in Togliatti. today finally sold AvtoVAZ.
            http://tlt.ru/articles.php?n=1943872
            Renault-Nissan and Russian Technologies State Corporation have set up a joint venture to own AVTOVAZ shares. They were created in order to own shares, and not to develop the enterprise as needed by our country.
            “Today’s historic agreement is a unique deal that benefits all three brands, Renault, Nissan and LADA, and will be a new stage in successful collaboration,” said Ghosn. - “The joint venture will accelerate our development in Russia and will contribute to the competitiveness of AvtoVAZ, the leader of the Russian automotive industry” ....
            1. Misantrop
              0
              23 December 2012 13: 36
              Well, let's see if we can make a normal car out of a bucket of nuts in private hands. Or indeed, as in the joke, "the damned place" laughing
        2. sq
          +4
          11 December 2012 11: 41
          The question is interesting. When I was studying at the BIMSH (Minsk), a lot was discussed on this subject, we compared agricultural machinery of the USSR and the GDR, and came to interesting conclusions. Discard ergonomics and other bells and whistles. First: materials. In our technology, mainly St3 steel was used, in German - alloyed steels. The difference in mass was several times, the dimensions, respectively. Second: workmanship. I think the comments are superfluous. Third: introducing new models, making qualitative changes to existing ones. This is generally constipation with diarrhea during an attack of hemorrhoids. Who in the subject understands. To this we can add the initiative of manufacturers, bringing the product to something unintelligible (so much that was good and necessary was ruined). Plus the inertia of production. In general, the production of civilian equipment has been put into deliberately losing conditions, both in materials and components, and in indistinct technical tasks for development.
          And in general, to create / design any product - you need to work hard, create something fundamentally new - you need to drain your brains great, and create a new and successful one - you also need to put your soul into it. And when you hear a task of this type: "You go, ask something you need to do," and there they themselves do not know what they want, then the result is clear to everyone.
        3. 0
          12 December 2012 06: 12
          UAZ is a super car, no matter how funny it sounds, especially a loaf. We have the most on deposits. I call her a model designer. What is missing, you can install yourself.
      2. +6
        11 December 2012 10: 56
        Quote: SSI
        they master knowledge of special design tools (meaning computer design) - of course it is important, but the main thing is the idea, and the technician can also translate into drawings. An engineer is a thinking person who knows how to use the materials and knowledge of predecessors and on their basis, creates something new
        Hello, Sergey. He wrote it very correctly. Do you know how, before the borrowed word Engineer, we called them? In Russia, up to the 19 century, they were called rods. These are people who should think and think about how it will work in a complex and how to make it all.
        1. FID
          +3
          11 December 2012 11: 09
          Hello, Zhenya! Your theme at all percentages! Good luck in your work, and let more THOUGHTS come to you!
          1. +2
            11 December 2012 13: 47
            Quote: SSI
            Good luck in your work, and let more THOUGHTS come to you!
            Sergey now comes more artists. Although there are many guys who already know how to think. And I am glad that Dima and Volodya are already starting to think not only about ideas, but also the process of their implementation. in general, for me, Edison was always the standard, a talented man and always thought about how profitable it would be to produce his inventions in 20-50 years, rather than a momentary exhaust. Now we all use this and I always put it as an example to my young people.
  7. +5
    11 December 2012 09: 31
    It is not enough to choose an engineering specialty; one must have a disposition for it, an engineering mentality.
  8. +2
    11 December 2012 09: 39
    An open letter from the head of the portal Superjob.ru, Alexei Zakharov, to the President of the Russian Federation

    Dear Mr. President!
    You set the goal of creating 25 million “good and well-paid” jobs by 2020. This is a wonderful task, and we, as employers, are in favor with both hands.
    But the real human resources policy is that by the year 2020 there will be additional 25 million jobs created for low-skilled migrants. This is in addition to the 10 — 15 millions of jobs that are already created for them.
    As a result of public policies in the coming decades the number of low-skilled migrants attracted from abroad will amount to more than half of the economically active population of the country.
    We, of course, understand that a course has been taken for the innovative development of Russia. What is innovation? This is an increase in competitiveness due to the application of advanced methods of production management, cost reduction, etc. etc. In this sense, attracting a large number of low-paid and low-skilled workforce, working, moreover, for the most part outside the legal field under slave conditions, is an unconditional innovation that allows organizations to reduce costs and become more competitive.
    This is a great solution! But it makes tens of millions of our fellow citizens completely uncompetitive. They already can not compete in the market of low-skilled labor. A Russian citizen cannot and should not compete for a job and a beggarly salary with visitors from Central Asia. Russian citizens are not ready and should not live in bestial conditions for 20 people in a room, getting meager wages for their work. And our citizens do not want.
    But, I emphasize, this does not mean that they do not want to work. They do not want to work for a salary that does not allow to give birth and raise children, eat normally and be treated. Moreover, according to our research, today 18% of our citizens feel real competition with visitors from Central Asia. But this is in general, and among low-skilled Russian youth and low-skilled older people, almost 25% already claim competition! These are terrible numbers, Mr. President!
    What advantages do we have from attracting tens of millions of low-skilled migrants? I see none. We blur the Russian culture (I emphasize, not Russian, but Russian). Uncontrolled migration creates problems not only in Moscow and other “Russian” megalopolises - in our “Muslim” regions the influx of cheap labor from abroad creates the same difficulties.
    Could someone imagine ten years ago that there will be classes in Moscow schools where children do not speak Russian well or do not speak the state language at all? Today it is a reality. If the flow is not stopped, then in a short time schools and areas will appear where it will be difficult to hear Russian speech. Five years ago, the word "Moskvobad" did not exist in Russian. And today it’s not perceived as a joke
    What modern economy and its development can we talk about when using slave labor? What kind of breakthroughs are we talking about if the average person living in Russia will hardly read and speak Russian in twenty years?
    1. +2
      11 December 2012 09: 39
      We plan, through the Ministry of Labor, to spend hundreds of billions of rubles in the coming years on attracting and adapting migrants. If the same money extra send our citizens to education, there is still a chance that in 20 years we still will not forget how to fly into space.
      But just not enough money! It is necessary today (tomorrow it will be too late) to completely close the Russian labor market for unskilled migration from abroad. Totally! No quotas.
      The inability to attract cheap labor will force businesses to invest in those very innovations, to increase labor productivity, create “good” jobs. There is no other way. Either degradation (and its speed is increasing), or tough political decisions.
      The CIS, military bases, geopolitics ... All this is wonderful, just who will need all this in 20 — 30 years?
      I urge you, Mr. President, make tough political decisions aimed at the complete prohibition of the import of cheap labor into the Russian Federation.
      The world will not collapse. And prices will not rise. Salaries of a significant part of Russian citizens will increase. First low-skilled, then those with higher qualifications: everything is interconnected. And this money will remain in the country - it will be spent on the development of the Russian economy. They will create new jobs for citizens of the Russian Federation
      PS
      Why did I decide to write this letter? I’ve been talking about this for several years: newspapers, radio, television, the Internet ... And well, I would be alone. I am discussing this topic with high-ranking federal officials with whom you, Mr. President, are also personally acquainted. Everyone’s hair stands on end from what’s happening. But ... I ask my friends: well, you are power, why are you silent? And in response, I hear: Us THERE (pointedly looking up) do not listen.
      Hear us, Mr. President!
      Head of Superjob.ru portal
      Alexey Zakharov

      December 10 2012

      Superjob.ru is the largest Russian portal for job and staff search. Every year, more than a million people find work using Superjob.ru.
      1. +2
        11 December 2012 09: 59
        Good morning, dear Stanislav!
        There are literally two words about your link.
        The political leadership of Russia, in relation to migrants, is guided by rather political (and) or geopolitical considerations than economic! -This is my opinion.

        So the appeal of the head of the portal Superjob.ru Alexei Zakharov will remain unanswered.
        1. +1
          11 December 2012 10: 40
          Quote: Apollon
          So the appeal of the head of the portal Superjob.ru Alexei Zakharov will remain unanswered.


          You can’t squeeze a tear from a stone as they say, but water does not flow under a still stone.
          If we keep silent, it will not be better anyway. And our place will be taken by professional destroyers - insurgents from Bolotnaya. I assure you that the authorities are still listening to public opinion, or rather trying to shape it, as you write, out of political and geopolitical considerations. Of course, I am not a prophet, but for example, as soon as I wrote here that the Presidential Council for Human Rights consists of 90% of the hires of the State Department and the fifth column, just a few days later Putin makes a Solomon decision to expand this Council in order to dilute this gadyushnik, which immediately caused the dissatisfied reaction of liberalism. Or the last coincidence, wrote in the comments that we have undeservedly forgotten Heroes of Labor, how Putin immediately decides to introduce this title at the official level (at a meeting of proxies). There were also moments, in particular, on a single governing body of the military-industrial complex and on the state defense order, on the restoration of the institution of military representatives (also not only I spoke about this) - decisions are being made. And the letter will not remain unanswered in any case, or the authorities will begin to solve this problem on their own, or sooner or later the “street” will solve it, then certainly not enough will seem to anyone, including the authorities.
      2. +3
        11 December 2012 10: 08
        It turns out that, on the one hand, the state needs qualified engineers, and on the other hand, there are very few jobs for such specialists, and those that are are absolutely unattractive in terms of income. The problem is not the state, but business is the employer and consumer of engineering personnel And for the business, the main thing is to make a profit at any cost by reducing production costs and cheap labor. Therefore, the business does not need qualified personnel. Why, for example, buy expensive equipment if you can hire a dozen Gaster for ridiculous money and thereby get even more profit without spending money on modernization and innovative technologies. Engineers are needed primarily by the STATE of industry, the military-industrial complex, and large-scale technological production. Our essentially criminalized business and the corruption bureaucracy that has grown together with it, DO NOT NEED engineers, doctors and teachers, it needs cheap labor, storekeepers, security guards and creative office plankton of lawyers and economists. I fully subscribe to the letter of Alexei Zakharov, the problem needs to be solved IMMEDIATELY, otherwise it will be too late.
        I propose to put this letter in a separate topic and hold a discussion and a survey among users of the site and send the results of the survey (and I am sure of the support of the majority) to the President of Russia.
  9. Svarog
    +6
    11 December 2012 09: 42
    The problem with specialists is very big. I speak as heads. specialist. design department. And it's not about salaries, but about the low level of young engineers. But the ambition of the graduates .. They immediately want to receive at least 30 tr. having no experience at all. But as my father used to say; "They become an engineer only after 2 years of work in their specialty, and a good specialist only after 5 years of work" and this on the condition that I really design all this time, and do not deal with small things.
    Now we have managed to put together a good strong group (it took 1.5 years, despite the fact that some of the good specialists were already there). We also need people, I had to take a girl with a non-specialized education, but who has been involved in KMD for several years, she has good potential and has an interest in the matter. And they also took an extramural student, it will take a long time to learn. At the same time, our salaries are not bad, directors are willing to pay 30t.r. if the specialist is normal, with a further increase in wages, indexing 2 times a year, etc.
    This applies to designers. With designers it’s simpler - there are a lot of them and they learn faster - basically mastering 3D programs and general knowledge about materials and their work is already enough for them, they almost do not know how to count, despite the fact that the programs give good tools. We also have a lot of technologists - the specifics of the region and our work are affecting. There are very few architects, almost all are weak - in our region there is no architectural university, only an academy (there are at least 1 department graduating civil engineers). Until recently, he taught at the university what they do there - it's just PPC. The destruction of the entire structure is systematic. This year, a strong university was divided into separate institutions - optimization. But our university was quoted on a par with Novosibirsk and Tomsk.
    We draw conclusions .. No prestige will save if they spend the second wave (after 90) of the destruction of universities. Young teachers are very weak (before I left a lot of them came from the student bench), the elderly are dying in dozens in recent years ...
    1. FID
      +6
      11 December 2012 10: 26
      And imagine what to do in aircraft instrumentation? In a narrower area, in the repair of already designed and made equipment? Young people sometimes do not know what a diode is! The standard answer, usually, is to look on the Internet. And where do you get the Internet at the airport? But give me your salary right away! On the one hand, everything is right, you have to live, but .... Salaries are dozens of times different from the salaries of those who work in banks, in Gazprom, etc. etc. And rents are raised regularly, transportation in vehicles - no less regularly. However, some figures argue that we need to work better .....
    2. sq
      +4
      11 December 2012 11: 43
      It’s good for the designer to first work in production, preferably repair, then he better understands what and how exactly needs to be done.
      1. Svarog
        +2
        11 December 2012 11: 59
        I agree that it is useful for designers to undergo practical training, and it is even better if you design and communicate with those who manufacture, operate, etc., but if you have worked in production, went into design is not the best option. As a rule, the theoretical basis is weak, especially the calculations. Without training, it's not an option at all - a person has a constant excuse for everything: "you don't understand anything about this, but I (hits myself in the chest) ...". We have a very low culture of production (I do not consider high-tech areas here - I simply don’t know how there is, but I can say for the construction and production of equipment) and it will not be possible to design from production. But interesting thoughts are often thrown up.
      2. vyatom
        0
        12 December 2012 16: 16
        Well, first, the manager to work in production, and then go to sales. And then it’s heavier than x ... I did not hold anything in my hands, and the ambition
    3. vyatom
      +2
      11 December 2012 12: 49
      If a graduate has little to pay, he will go into commerce as an effective manager. But you need to pay normally so that it does not work for a bowl of soup. But to ask him so that in six months he would rise to a good level. Otherwise, we will not educate professional engineering personnel.
    4. vyatom
      0
      12 December 2012 16: 14
      There is no state support. Even money is allocated, but it goes into the pocket of effective managers. And techies get out for a penny.
  10. +2
    11 December 2012 10: 14
    Wait and see.
    There would be youth, but political will: we will turn the mountains.
  11. +3
    11 December 2012 10: 46
    In fact, if the demand for engineers is growing, then this is undoubtedly an indicator of Russia's recovery. I don’t know how it grows there or not, but by the growth / decline in the share of engineering specialties in the economy, we can definitely judge the work of our ministers. It is not bad that the President began to take such a factor into account when evaluating the work of a minister.
    1. +1
      11 December 2012 10: 57
      Greetings dear.
      Quote: Magadan
      In fact, if the demand for engineers is growing, then this is undoubtedly an indicator of Russia's recovery. I don’t know how it grows there or not, but by the growth / decline in the share of engineering specialties in the economy, we can definitely judge the work of our ministers. It is not bad that the President began to take such a factor into account when evaluating the work of a minister.
      Demand is growing, but there are very few decent proposals. Well, they want to cut all the easy money.
  12. AlexMH
    +9
    11 December 2012 11: 01
    In fact, everything is not so rosy. Yes, in some areas, the demand for engineers is growing, but in the oil industry it has not dropped. But, firstly, the salaries of engineers and technicians are still lower than in related sectors, in particular, in firms dealing in equipment trade, and it is more profitable for graduates to go there. Secondly, the quality of graduates is declining, and will continue to decline - I speak as a teacher at MSTU. In fact, there are no practitioners at the enterprises, they are not interested in practices. Everyone expects to be given ready-made specialists. Equipment in universities is falling apart from old age, like many teachers. No, they are honest people who devoted their whole lives to students, but they cannot teach something new due to the absence of this new and old age. HR workers at enterprises generally think in salary "positions", they say, we will set a salary of 40 thousand, and 10 good engineers will come, and we will choose the one who has a smarter face. Students do not see a direct connection between the quality of study and the level of subsequent payment, and they do not want to master even what we can teach so far. And also this nonsense with bachelors .. As a result, often design engineers are not the smartest and most energetic graduates, but those who could not get a job in another place where there is more money and less responsibility. The ability to draw in 3D has not made anyone an engineer yet. Beautiful pictures make an excellent impression on employers, but you also need to understand what you are drawing, and young people do not want to learn from old engineers - it's lazy, and so it's a shame that they are paid less than milk suckers, and they hold on to their knowledge and places, do not give them, which is quite natural. As a consequence, technologies are not only not promoted, but not even replicated. Moreover, foreigners hold on with their teeth for their know-how, and do not give away a single gram of unnecessary knowledge. Hence the degradation of industry, which, even at relatively advanced enterprises, such as Sukhoi, is acquiring a systemic and threatening character. We need to change the system, but we have the same stability ... At one unexpected moment, we finally find ourselves suddenly at a broken trough, unable to reproduce our own technologies, which is already happening everywhere and is growing. And the world is moving forward, and at some point the lag will, in principle, become insurmountable, as between Europe and Africa.
    1. FID
      +4
      11 December 2012 11: 20
      As a former teacher, I support fully and completely!
    2. Svarog
      +2
      11 December 2012 12: 09
      I fully support.
      In general, the ubiquitous introduction of 3D has now become openly thrown back. Beginners do not see and cannot read flat drawings. Many mistakes are made, although 3D should significantly reduce them. Now all other departments (mainly designers and technologists) are pressing on our design department to switch to 3-dimensional design, and in our specifics (KM, KZh) it does not give a big advantage, since the development of all nodes and design up to GOSTs all the same in 2D (well, you cannot parameterize everything, even crack). And they need three measures so that they take it and put the finished one in their projects. And we need 3-dimensional schemes only in calculations, in drawings it is faster to distribute 2-dimensional, and it is easier to make changes in the future. And when you say to them that it is they who must build the models first, and we should work with it already - roll our eyes, so they are not happy ..
    3. vyatom
      0
      11 December 2012 12: 50
      And I ask you, why is this happening?
  13. geptilshik
    +6
    11 December 2012 11: 39
    Very correct last post. He went from a technical engineer to a leading design engineer. The designer does not draw pictures, but designs the product, which should subsequently bring to life one or another production. A young specialist leaving the university, by and large, does not understand anything and does not know the technology. (A stone in the garden of many technical universities.) Here, the older generation, which should take patronage over such young specialists, should help just in practice. The leadership immediately wants yesterday's student to be able to do everything and sadly, the heads of the design bureaus want the same. My current boss is not very willing to hire young specialists to work, he says they must be imported, nursed, etc. And in large offices, the designer also does not live very well. For example, my former office, a large international company engaged in the production of oil equipment, seemed to have oil = big salaries, but no, it turned out not, the design engineer there turned out to be the last laborer, working almost for wear and tear, monthly trips to the North in the wells, designing, manufacturing, launching and debugging of the equipment lay on the shoulders of the designer, when the conversation was with the chief engineer, and if there were bonuses or an increase in salary or at least a day off, one answer was heard you didn’t work ..... Of course you say this is the boss and no, the managers are behind the wall for the same projects received prizes, etc. So while the design engineer in our country, although in demand, but at the same time not needed.
    1. vyatom
      +2
      11 December 2012 12: 55
      Managers seem to earn, and engineers only spend. At least this is the opinion.
      1. Igor
        +3
        11 December 2012 13: 34
        Quote: vyatom
        Managers seem to earn, and engineers only spend. At least this is the opinion.


        Oil can also be sold without managers. And one more thing, they earn money in America or Europe, and in Russia effective managers only saw money and ruin production.

        Quote: vyatom
        and engineers only spend.


        Bill Gate, Steve Jobs, etc.And of our only know Petrika laughing
    2. Radarik606
      0
      13 December 2012 02: 33
      it’s different everywhere, to operate and design the equipment are completely different things, if the designer has a small sn, it means they took a bad tender or the authorities do not consider it necessary!)

      But what is the company called?
  14. +1
    11 December 2012 11: 40
    So far, only words, such a feeling, only a rating, damn it, again this word, the popularity of clowns is falling, the population is being merged, the big one has time to shed with the loot over the hill
  15. +2
    11 December 2012 11: 45
    it doesn’t really change, I’ll tell you myself, I’m kind of like an engineer, and maybe not the most powerful one, but with experience and knowledge
  16. +3
    11 December 2012 11: 54
    One comrade living in Zhukovsky told me that TsAGI is gaining engineering, but priority is given to those who have Soviet-style diplomas. Trying to collect old frames.
  17. Dios
    +4
    11 December 2012 12: 59
    Quote: AlexMH
    In fact, everything is not so rosy. Yes, in some areas, the demand for engineers is growing, but in the oil industry it has not dropped. But, firstly, the salaries of engineers and technicians are still lower than in related sectors, in particular, in firms dealing in equipment trade, and it is more profitable for graduates to go there. Secondly, the quality of graduates is declining, and will continue to decline - I speak as a teacher at MSTU. In fact, there are no practitioners at the enterprises, they are not interested in practices. Everyone expects to be given ready-made specialists. Equipment in universities is falling apart from old age, like many teachers. No, they are honest people who devoted their whole lives to students, but they cannot teach something new due to the absence of this new and old age. HR workers at enterprises generally think in salary "positions", they say, we will set a salary of 40 thousand, and 10 good engineers will come, and we will choose the one who has a smarter face. Students do not see a direct connection between the quality of study and the level of subsequent payment, and they do not want to master even what we can teach so far. And also this nonsense with bachelors .. As a result, often design engineers are not the smartest and most energetic graduates, but those who could not get a job in another place where there is more money and less responsibility. The ability to draw in 3D has not made anyone an engineer yet. Beautiful pictures make an excellent impression on employers, but you also need to understand what you are drawing, and young people do not want to learn from old engineers - it's lazy, and so it's a shame that they are paid less than milk suckers, and they hold on to their knowledge and places, do not give them, which is quite natural. As a consequence, technologies are not only not promoted, but not even replicated. Moreover, foreigners hold on with their teeth for their know-how, and do not give away a single gram of unnecessary knowledge. Hence the degradation of industry, which, even at relatively advanced enterprises, such as Sukhoi, is acquiring a systemic and threatening character. We need to change the system, but we have the same stability ... At one unexpected moment, we finally find ourselves suddenly at a broken trough, unable to reproduce our own technologies, which is already happening everywhere and is growing. And the world is moving forward, and at some point the lag will, in principle, become insurmountable, as between Europe and Africa.

    I do not agree with you about the responsibility of the designer, but
    I don’t agree with you about the training of young specialists because there are not so many good specialists at the age, and the employer has a tendency to make the project faster. And what kind of training are you talking about? We have orders for mentoring at many enterprises, but this is all on paper, so no one is training young specialists. And students, especially from universities, they can’t deliver roughness (they don’t know which one to put), and they’ll immediately go into battle. Say, get a diploma, let's work it out and all this for 10 thousand rubles (in Moscow and St. Petersburg with salaries, of course, in a different way). And tell me who will tolerate this, and whoever goes to Peter who goes to Moscow.

    PS: In my opinion, what kind of development can we talk about when we have absolutely nothing to do new products (most of the machinery are old, we must not talk about proper quality control and the caliper is ours), because how can we compete with foreigners when we have nobody It doesn’t consider the real costs of manufacturing a unit of production, it’s just corny to add wrapping factors.
    By the way, foreigners of our engineers take and do not complain, and decent salaries are given not only by domestic entrepreneurs.
    1. +3
      11 December 2012 14: 14
      Quote: DiOS
      I do not agree with you about the responsibility of the designer, but
      I don’t agree with you about the training of young specialists because there are not so many good specialists at the age, and the employer has a tendency to make the project faster. And what kind of training are you talking about? We have orders for mentoring at many enterprises, but this is all on paper, so no one is training young specialists. And students, especially from universities, they can’t deliver roughness (they don’t know which one to put), and they’ll immediately go into battle. Say, get a diploma, let's work it out and all this for 10 thousand rubles (in Moscow and St. Petersburg with salaries, of course, in a different way). And tell me who will tolerate this, and whoever goes to Peter who goes to Moscow.
      I kind of understood the cry of the soul. But by and large, with targeted training (by the way, we were given a quota of 2 times more for target specialists for our research institute) all 100% work. And excuse me, for what I need a thieves student who studies for money, if I can just open a ticket for a talented boy (by the way I go to UPI and select those who will go to the target) So this is just the policy of the leader, not the state.
  18. +1
    11 December 2012 14: 54
    Let me put in my 5 cents. IMHO the most objective indicator of the "prestige" of a specialty is a competition for a place for applicants. It would be interesting to compare with other specialties.
  19. 3 points from Ilyich
    +2
    11 December 2012 15: 09
    After a university, it’s not so easy for a young engineer to get a decent job in a specialty (if without connections), although the demand is great for specialists, because few people need you without work experience, but in general over the past 10 years the average age of the project team organization has declined significantly, for example, where I live and work (a small town in central Ukraine), it is about 35 years. But another thing is the salary of a civil engineer in Ukraine is much less than in Russia (except for a few organizations in Kiev), for example, in my office, an engineer of the 2nd category has a salary of 2800 UAH (10000 rubles), plus taxes. Accordingly, our services are cheaper and the customer we have is just the Russian side, so now we are working on a refinery in Komsomolsk-on-Amur
  20. +5
    11 December 2012 15: 30
    I don’t want to brag, but without a higher education, all my life I gravitated towards electronics, development, studied books and technologies, by the age of 20 (now 31) I could already make the simplest device on a texas processor, wrote programs. At the beginning of 2000 there was an abyss in this area and there was nowhere to go, thank God now it has become really in demand and pay normally. 3 years ago, when I was arranged, in this design bureau there was a competition of 8 people for a place. I think I even ask for additional things, since there are a lot of parallel projects. Forward country fellow
    1. vyatom
      0
      12 December 2012 16: 18
      Well done.
  21. Starksa
    +2
    11 December 2012 17: 44
    It is easy to guess how “good” they will become specialists.


    Well, most of the excellent students pursue only grades, they cram, after the exam it turns out they don’t know anything, don’t ask.

    At school, I can say that, roughly speaking, they pulled their ears to be. Upon admission to the university, these Gold and Silver medalists rolled into triples or even completely left ..., a bunch of examples
    1. Gavrn
      0
      11 December 2012 19: 33
      Well, we have only one person who is going to graduate, can at least do something. All the rest are oaks that know less than some of our triplets.
      1. Starksa
        0
        11 December 2012 21: 19
        and which faculty?
  22. +3
    11 December 2012 19: 17
    Really intelligent engineers are being hunted all over the world by all kinds of clintons.
    If the specialist is not hidden behind the iron curtain and not put on the subscription chain, then he needs to imagine the conditions not worse, but better than that of the competitor.
    This I remind for effective managers, and the "thieves" on such conditions and crawl through.
  23. Gavrn
    +4
    11 December 2012 19: 27
    I am finishing the 5th course. There was a preliminary distribution recently (yes, it still happens). About 15-20 people came who "need" young specialists. Who are these people, where do they offer HZ. Everyone kept a deathly silence. So our whole group signed up in advance in the only place where we had practice and about which we know at least something.
    Meanwhile, at the end of last semester came people who really needed new people. They introduced themselves, talked about themselves. I took a chance, went to them. Now I am learning from them, with which they answer any of my questions and explain literally everything.

    In the end, I want to note that this year about 25 people graduate from my university at our university. Of these, only about 10 people will go to work either in their specialty or in an area close to our specialty.
    And we still have to finish my studies, quite a lot is needed. We have basic knowledge of electronics, but there are practically no in-depth knowledge in any field. And many employers (especially from not very large companies) need Schaub you came, sat down and began to give out a hill.
  24. +3
    11 December 2012 19: 27
    In the 81st I did a diploma, 1200 light bulbs and on running lights. And the size is 1m by 2m. (Control scheme for the arrows on the railway, d.) Now the boys are running to me to solder at least something out of 10 details. And this is their thesis. And this is in the 21st century.
  25. Den-laden
    +4
    11 December 2012 20: 50
    I am an Engineer, I earn an average of 40-43 sput. CHYADNT? And we have a lot of young guys. The author of the article, wake up! The demand for engineers has been very high for 3 years already. In any case, in the telecom. And it will only grow. The country is developing and modernizing. I know that many "Conscientious" people will be distressed by this. But in the field of communications, we are doing quite well in civilian life, and now we are tightening up the military. So the profession of an Engineer will be in demand now and in the future.
  26. Nirtan
    +4
    11 December 2012 21: 35
    I work at a defense enterprise in the region, an electronic engineer, from the 4th year of university.
    Settled in 2004 at a half-time with a salary of 1.5t.r (yes, one and a half thousand rubles). No crony dating, etc. But there was a great desire to really study, work.
    Now I think that I am a good specialist. Salary rarely drops below 100t.r. I enjoy the work.
    It is obvious to me that if you like your business, you will be happy to deal with it, grow quickly. A good income will appear by itself.
    And if you go and whine that they pay little, everything around the goats, etc., then the earnings will also be appropriate
    1. 0
      11 December 2012 22: 16
      vom Wedmak:

      "It is not enough to choose an engineering specialty, you need to have a disposition for it, an engineering mindset."

      You could say that: An engineer is not a profession, but a way of life.
    2. +2
      11 December 2012 22: 27
      Something implausible ...
      Or very lucky ..
      Where I left from - NIIFI- we "spud" 1.7-3 billion rubles a year (in contracts)
      But the salaries of our specialists were - so modest - I personally received 18-22 thousand rubles a month.

      And at the expense of whining - you can see
      here I accidentally saw one document
      The topic "Diagnostics" costs about 400 million rubles, and according to that document, 233 million are spent in third-party organizations (and we wrote their reports)

      And your post looks like a statement that there is a state place where they just do business and pay for it .. of course, I would like to believe ..
    3. vyatom
      0
      12 December 2012 16: 20
      Well done. Plus
  27. WW3
    WW3
    +4
    11 December 2012 22: 32
    Of course, we can say that all professions are important - all professions are needed ... but nevertheless, if engineers (engineers) are needed, it means that the real sector of the economy is developing, and not the services sector such as lawyers and clerks of all kinds of bureaucrats, and this is good for the state and economics ...
    1. 0
      12 December 2012 06: 18
      WW3 "Of course, we can say that all professions are important - all professions are needed ... but nevertheless, if engineers (engineers) are required, then the real sector of the economy is developing" - Most importantly, there is no long-term perspective. Well, they will set up the military equipment provided for by rearmament until 2020 - then what? There is no country development plan!
  28. Svarog
    +2
    12 December 2012 10: 24
    It is necessary to understand that "engineer" is a very capacious concept (like "manager", the word is only tarnished strongly). The salary varies greatly from specialization. I remember how at the beginning of 2000 we (designers and builders) were jealous of engineers associated with electronics - there was a boom in the installation of cellular networks and towers, and wages. they were transcendental. And we sat almost without work, because we did not build a damn thing. Now the boom has passed, the coverage areas are all done, the competition in the Internet segment is great. And z.p. they fell heavily. But ours is also not rosy - little is being built. Large skew in w.p. from subcontractors (electricians, heating, ventilation, etc.), they simply do not work out their salaries, while they have to pay well - there are very few of them.
    Another problem is that there are a lot of "service personnel" in firms (both private and public). "Service personnel" are those who do not directly earn money (accountant, personnel department, etc., etc.), we generally get an interesting skew - 10 specialists of designers, and already 6 GUIs were accepted ... (here true politics is involved)
  29. Antistaks
    +2
    13 December 2012 21: 55
    I do not share optimism. I could not find a job for one and a half years just because I was a little over 50. My profiles simply did not read after the age columns. And do not give a shit about my participation in the Russian - French space projects. Now I work as the chief technologist for the production of plastic pipes. Salary 15 tr dirty. And don’t jerk - there are shopping centers on the site of the factories.

    Thanks to Putin that even CRANES does not forget and pulls AMPHORA out of the water.
  30. 0
    16 December 2012 19: 50
    In our company, the designer gets 50-80 thousand rubles. But you have to work, and answer for the work. (Projects go straight to the hardware). Often I visit enterprises in different places - those who work (who are in demand) receive.
    Well, if the work is nominal, then the payment is nominal.
  31. Yurgens
    0
    23 December 2012 13: 20
    just words, in fact there is nothing
  32. Dios
    0
    27 December 2012 15: 57
    Quote: homosum20
    In our company, the designer gets 50-80 thousand rubles. But you have to work, and answer for the work. (Projects go straight to the hardware). Often I visit enterprises in different places - those who work (who are in demand) receive.
    Well, if the work is nominal, then the payment is nominal.

    How many hours a day do they work? And the most important question in MOSCOW? Do you finish the projects or immediately without checking the metal? Won't they be raw?
    At our enterprise, the same is a slogan immediately in the metal. As a result, the project has not been finalized (raw). The process of designing a semi-trailer or road equipment is done from the Order and the picture (not to be confused with the outline design) to the RCD in less than 2 months and without any pre-design and similar papers immediately RCD. And for all this, the leading designers, not to mention other engineers, get 15000 rubles dirty with refining and bonuses. How do you like that?