The development of a new MLRS "Sarma" has begun

82
The development of a new MLRS "Sarma" has begun
The first version of the MLRS "Kama" with a transport and launch container. Photo bmpd.livejournal.com


It became known about new plans in the context of the further development of domestic rocket artillery. The industry began to develop a project with the code "Sarma". Its goal is to create a new multiple launch rocket system in 300 mm caliber, which has a number of advantages over existing serial models. The new project will be based on developments on one of the previously created MLRS.



First mention


The development of a promising MLRS "Sarma" on June 1 was reported by RIA News. Information about the project was received from an unnamed informed source. He spoke about the existence of the project and revealed its main ideas. At the same time, other details of the project and ongoing work, as often happens, were not specified.

According to the source, the Russian military-industrial complex has already begun developing the Sarma project. Which enterprises are engaged in this MLRS is not reported. The new system is called a direct continuation of the Kama project, developed in the distant past.

Some technical features of the future MLRS are named. So, she will use 300 mm caliber rockets, incl. guided precision munitions. The combat vehicle itself will be characterized by increased mobility and security. In addition, she will receive an improved automated fire control system.


Modified version of "Kama" with a launch package. In the background - regular TZM. Photo "Motovilikhinskiye Zavody"

The RIA Novosti source did not say whether the Sarma project is being created by order of the Ministry of Defense or is an initiative development. He also did not specify the current state of the project, the approximate work schedule, etc. In fact, so far only the existence of the project, its “origin” and main features are known. However, new interesting details may appear at any time.

Basic sample


Despite the lack of technical details, RIA Novosti points out a curious feature of the new project. It is alleged that the MLRS "Sarma" will be a direct continuation of the old project "Kama" and will be built on the basis of the same ideas. Such information allows us to imagine what the new multiple launch rocket system could be like, and what its combat capabilities will be.

Recall that since the late eighties, the MLRS 9K58 "Smerch" of 300 mm caliber has been in service with our army. The main element of this system is the 9A52 combat vehicle, built on a special four-axle chassis MZKT-7911 or MZKT-7310. The machine is equipped with a launcher with 12 tubular guides for missiles. When using all types of regular ammunition, 9K58 / 9A52 shows high combat qualities.

In the middle of the 2007s, Motovilikha Plants and related organizations began to look for solutions to improve individual characteristics of the system. The first result of these processes was the Kama project, during which the mobility of the system increased, as well as operational and combat characteristics. A prototype of such a MLRS was first shown at the MAKS-XNUMX exhibition.


MLRS "Uragan-1M" with two TPK under 300-mm shells. Photo by the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation

For "Kama" a new combat vehicle 9A52-4 was developed. It was built on a KamAZ-6350 four-axle truck chassis and equipped with a modified set of special equipment. By replacing the base chassis, the creators of Kama sacrificed the carrying capacity, but received higher driving performance on the highway and off-road. Operational capabilities have also improved - due to higher unification with the existing army fleet.

MLRS "Kama" received a new launcher, devoid of its own guides. It was proposed to put a quick-change transport and launch container 9Ya295 with six missiles on the slewing device. Such a TPK had a length of approx. 7,5 m with a width of 1,1 m and a height of less than 1 m. Gross weight - 6,2 tons. The transport and loading vehicle with a crane-manipulator was supposed to transport and install containers on the launcher.

For a number of reasons, the Kama product in this form did not interest the customer, and a new version of the project was developed. The updated MLRS was shown at the Russia Arms Expo 2009 exhibition. The launcher under the TPK was replaced with a traditional package of six 300-mm pipes. In addition, the original TZM 9T234-4 on the KamAZ chassis was included in the system. She could carry and reload up to six missiles.

According to known data, the MLRS "Kama" in an updated form has reached field tests. For several years, experimental equipment has demonstrated its capabilities and confirmed the calculated characteristics. However, the project did not progress further. Based on the analysis of available capabilities, the Ministry of Defense chose a different path for the development of large-caliber MLRS. It was decided to implement the Tornado-S project, using existing 9A52 combat vehicles.


Serial combat vehicle "Tornado-S". Photo by the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation

It is curious that not all developments on Kama were abandoned. So, the unified TPK 9Ya295 was used in the 9K512 Uragan-1M project. This MLRS could use two types of containers with 220- and 300-mm guides for 15 and 6 rounds, respectively. "Hurricane-1M" passed all the tests and was put into service, but a large series was not produced.

Estimated appearance


It is reported that the promising Sarma MLRS will be developed on the basis of the previous Kama project, which, in turn, was based on the older Smerch. All this allows us to imagine the possible appearance of the new system. In addition, it can be assumed that the developments on the Tornado-S MLRS, including the newest ones, will be used in the new project.

Apparently, the new MLRS will retain the Kama architecture and the basic approach to components. A multi-axle truck chassis "KamAZ" of one of the current models, which has the necessary carrying capacity and driving characteristics, will be used. In this case, you will have to sacrifice the ammunition load and the volume of the volley. So, in the Kama project, the number of guides had to be halved. However, it cannot be ruled out that the authors of "Sarma" will find the opportunity to install up to 10-12 guides on a combat vehicle.

Plans are reported to introduce an improved fire control and guidance system. The existing MLRS of the Tornado family, including the modernized Smerch, already have similar equipment. It is likely that the new OMS will use a more advanced component base, increase performance, etc. At the same time, the functions should remain the same. The system will have to determine the coordinates of the firing position and calculate the data for pointing guides. In addition, she will have to program rocket autopilots.


Combat work of the MLRS "Tornado-S". Photo by the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation

The Sarma will reportedly use 300mm rockets. Apparently, compatibility with the entire range of serial and developed ammunition will remain. In particular, the new MLRS will have to use the latest missiles developed in recent years for the Tornado-S. With the help of the 9M542 projectile or advanced developments of this class, the Sarma will be able to hit targets with high accuracy at ranges of the order of 100-120 km.

It should be noted that the reduction of the transportable ammunition will have a significant impact on the combat capabilities of the complex as a whole. Because of this, "Sarma" may lose the functions of the multiple launch rocket system. At the same time, new ammunition with enhanced performance will allow it to take an intermediate position between the MLRS and tactical missile systems.

Customer position


In general, the idea of ​​creating a new multiple launch rocket system that combines the experience of past projects and the latest developments is of great interest. Such a MLRS can have a number of important advantages and, at a minimum, complement existing samples with new capabilities and an improvement in the overall potential of rocket artillery.

However, the real prospects of such a project are still in question. Our army already has modernized MLRS "Tornado-S", and they continue to develop through the introduction of new systems and ammunition. Whether there is a need for a completely new multiple launch rocket system for the same range of missiles is unclear. The prospects for such a concept and the further fate of the Sarma project will have to be decided by the Ministry of Defense.
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  1. +19
    6 June 2023 05: 05
    It was proposed to put a quick-change transport and launch container 9Ya295 with six missiles on the slewing device.
    This b-vile "Hymars" could have turned out, it was absolutely impossible to go for it!
    The combat vehicle itself will be characterized by increased mobility and security.

    Well, yes, the absence of at least an armored cabin is archaic even without taking into account the experience of "SVO".
    1. -16
      6 June 2023 05: 28
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      This is a b-nasty "Hymars" could turn out

      That's why they sent the fuck - because of the mere impossibility of reloading and the mandatory packaging of missiles only at the factory, this cut is needed only by the factory and officials, but the fuck is not needed in the troops
      1. +7
        6 June 2023 06: 04
        Quote from Bingo
        due to the mere impossibility of reloading and the mandatory packaging of missiles only at the factory

        The container is in the troops, but right on the car, what prevents reloading - the laws of the universe?
        1. -14
          6 June 2023 06: 26
          Did you study Russian at school?
          Quote from Bingo
          due to the mere impossibility reloading


          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          recharge

          Or tell you where the cartridges in packs have gone, although they were very common a century ago - in the same USA, M1 Garand, or, for example, in Mannlicher?
          1. +4
            6 June 2023 07: 35
            Where the main thing is what will be the target designation of the ammunition used ... everything else is lyrics.
          2. 0
            6 June 2023 08: 22
            Quote from Bingo
            Did you study Russian at school?
            Quote from Bingo
            due to the mere impossibility of reloading

            Oh well, what's stopping you recharge container?

            Quote from Bingo
            Or tell you where the cartridges in packs have gone, although they were very common a century ago - in the same USA, M1 Garand, or, for example, in Mannlicher?

            And who told you that a container and a pack are one and the same? It would be nice for this person to learn some terminology. Even more than me - the Russian language.
            1. -4
              6 June 2023 12: 33
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              Oh, well, what prevents you from recharging the container?

              Impossibility of such action perhaps?
              I always knew that all sectarians are with bells and whistles, but the Church of the Holy Chimera is something ...
              1. 0
                6 June 2023 13: 09
                Quote from Bingo
                I always knew that all sectarians are with bells and whistles, but the Church of the Holy Chimera is something ...

                While you look "with a trinket".

                Quote from Bingo
                Impossibility of such action perhaps?

                WHAT PREVENTS THE CONTAINER WITH GUIDES TO RECHARGE? Are the guides melted? Container led? Where did you get the information about the impossibility of recharging the guides in the container, where did you get it, or is it a matter of faith?
                1. 0
                  6 June 2023 13: 45
                  And yet, why reload a container with only six missiles, if they are not very accurate, and they are not launched individually.
          3. +1
            6 June 2023 09: 54
            Cartridges in packs mutated into loose belts for machine guns. wink Disposable world.
            1. -5
              6 June 2023 12: 44
              Quote: hhurik
              Disposable world.

              Such tapes are suitable for war games somewhere out there, across the ocean, small and invariably victorious. And if a war starts, and not an "operation to deliver democracy" - they will start spanking instead of the Thompsons - miserable "oil cans", M3 Greeze Gun, mind you. the need for such came out even when the United States was waging a small war across the ocean ... Because it’s too famous to spend resources like that, producing Thompsons
              1. +1
                7 June 2023 02: 17
                Quote from Bingo
                Quote: hhurik
                Disposable world.

                Such tapes are suitable for war games somewhere out there, across the ocean, small and invariably victorious. And if a war starts, and not an "operation to deliver democracy" - they will start spanking instead of the Thompsons - miserable "oil cans", M3 Greeze Gun, mind you. the need for such came out even when the United States was waging a small war across the ocean ... Because it’s too famous to spend resources like that, producing Thompsons

          4. 0
            6 June 2023 10: 59
            Or tell you where the cartridges in packs have gone, although they were very common a century ago - in the same USA, M1 Garand, or, for example, in Mannlicher?

            But sho, zinc with "seven" for SCS has already been completely canceled? Somehow I overslept this moment...
            1. -1
              6 June 2023 11: 14
              Quote: VIK1711
              But sho, zinc with "seven" for SCS has already been completely canceled? Somehow I overslept this moment...

              A pack and a clip are far from the same thing.
          5. +1
            7 June 2023 02: 13
            Quote from Bingo
            Did you study Russian at school?
            Quote from Bingo
            due to the mere impossibility reloading


            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            recharge

            Or tell you where the cartridges in packs have gone, although they were very common a century ago - in the same USA, M1 Garand, or, for example, in Mannlicher?

    2. 0
      6 June 2023 11: 57
      "Hymars" - made specially lightweight for air delivery and mobility (why there are fewer missiles than in the full version).
      1. 0
        6 June 2023 13: 12
        Quote: Deadush
        "Hymars" - made specially lightweight for air delivery and mobility (why there are fewer missiles than in the full version).

        The value of HMA is in the possibility of launching an operational-tactical missile.
        1. 0
          13 July 2023 22: 48
          And how many have launched?
          ...........................
      2. -7
        6 June 2023 13: 44
        We also developed landing versions. But after all, it wouldn’t occur to any idiot to replace a full-fledged MLRS in the troops with a landing ersatz? But in the USA there are a lot of idiots ... Howitzers on a titanium machine in order to carry them behind a truck now - into the same piggy bank ... But such a piece for sawing broke off for the manufacturer and the Pentagon! And that the firepower went to smoke ... Come on. money is dripping - and the troops will be killed without MLRS at all
        1. 0
          12 June 2023 15: 20
          You have a talent for counting other people's cuts. Which are across the ocean. Did you try to submit an application to the American equivalent of the Federal Tax Service or the PCB under the Senate?
  2. +5
    6 June 2023 05: 43
    So the Motovilikha plant was recently bankrupted and sold. Now the prosecutor's office seems to be engaged. If they don’t recapture, goodbye MLRS hello new LCD
    1. -5
      6 June 2023 07: 05
      I see the Sarma washing powder for sale, there is also the Sarma liquid detergent ... Now it’s a mystery to me in honor of what is the name? So we will reach Dichlorvos against the Polish "Crabs". I heard in the future a new means "Kipatok" is coming with care for the environment, which is so loved in the West. lol
      1. -1
        12 June 2023 15: 22
        Gold is still possible. It also turns out quite eco
    2. +5
      6 June 2023 07: 10
      Quote from Voronezh
      So the Motovilikha plant was recently bankrupted and sold. Now the prosecutor's office seems to be engaged. If they don’t recapture, goodbye MLRS hello new LCD

      You, respected, understand the essence of the issue, and only after that raise a panic! laughing
      "As follows from the announcement of the auction, persons who have a license to work with classified information, as well as the development, production and repair of a number of artillery systems are allowed to participate in them. In addition, they must maintain the intended purpose of the property and fulfill the state defense order. participation in the auction is 20% of the initial cost of the lot."
  3. 0
    6 June 2023 06: 30
    I have only one question: who will produce it? Motovilikha factories jumping from one bankruptcy to another?
    1. 0
      20 July 2023 23: 38
      Bankruptcy is not the liquidation of a plant, but the cancellation of debts.
  4. +9
    6 June 2023 08: 46
    Quote: Saburov_Alexander53
    I see the Sarma washing powder for sale, there is also the Sarma liquid detergent ...


    The tradition of naming the MLRS in honor of the catastrophic phenomena of atmospheric nature: "Grad", "Hurricane" ...
    Sarma - a strong sudden wind (like a squall) on Lake Baikal, blowing from the shore.
    1. +2
      7 June 2023 08: 54
      Illanatol (Anatoly), thanks and a plus from me for clarifying the name. I just ask you to take into account my style of banter on this forum, where I am inadequate, according to the principle: "Better with a red face than with a red diploma," how we mocked the upstart excellent students at the institute, who fawned over the teachers, trying to seem diligent students for the red diploma. On this forum, I try not to get into senior officers from a major and above, therefore, as soon as I approach, I start banter in the hope of minuses-limiters. And what is Sarma, I previously peeped on the Internet, where there are several more rivers in the country with the same name. Now I have a great hope that our citizens will name newborn girls by this name, and for the boys I leave the name of the Hermes rocket, which is predicted for us by the Air Force. This will be our answer to Bayraktars with Javelins in Ukraine.
  5. +9
    6 June 2023 09: 24
    It is not clear why an installation with a smaller number of rockets was needed ?! Why, for so many years, they did not come to a single automobile base, represented, for example, by BAZ, but only with an armored cab and a multi-caliber TPU with containers loaded with, say, a pair of heavy missiles, 300mm and 220mm caliber rockets.
    If there really is a need for a more mobile launcher, then the approach here should also be based on multi-caliber, say from 122mm, 220mm and 300mm providing flexible versatility to perform various tasks using a wide range of ammunition. But again, in this case, a single armored platform should be chosen, which should have come a long time ago, and not all this diversity!




    1. +7
      6 June 2023 09: 59
      Approximately because of why they came to the USA from MARS on caterpillars uk Himarsu on a 6x6 comm truck. Progress with corr ammo. 6 pieces of corr missiles in 300mm will solve the problem faster than MLRS with an MZKT base.
      And, most likely, it is easier to make 2 Kamaz than 1 piece MZKT. And taking into account the use of 600mm missiles from the comm of a truck, this is generally progress.
      1. 0
        12 June 2023 15: 24
        Plus no hemorrhoids with an oversized platform
    2. +5
      6 June 2023 11: 32
      Quote: Dimon-chik-79
      It is not clear why an installation with a smaller number of rockets was needed ?!

      Because in the 30 years since the end of the Cold War, heavy MLRS have mutated into guided missile launchers. And where earlier it was necessary to release a package of 12 NURS in order to "sprinkle chalk" with an ellipse on the target, now 6 corrected RS are enough.
      Quote: Dimon-chik-79
      Why, for so many years, they did not come to a single automobile base, represented, for example, by BAZ

      Because BAZ almost died at first, and then began to work for air defense. At Almaz-Antey, the S-400 has not yet been completely transplanted to the domestic chassis - where can we give it to the BAZ side.
  6. +4
    6 June 2023 09: 39
    From an engineering point of view, the transport and launch container is not the optimal solution. Perhaps it would be more convenient to charge between the combat vehicle and the TZM "tail to tail", i.e. on any more or less flat area, two cars are set "butt to butt" (it would be nice for the TZM charger to have some degrees of freedom with hydraulic / electric drives) and the pushers perform a quick full recharge. If it is necessary to partially recharge in the old fashioned way, a crane is used.
    1. 0
      6 June 2023 14: 36
      It's different for different calibers. For example, BR on Iskander. It must be stored, its body must meet the requirements of storage and transportation. And this is reflected in the weight of the BR (one way or another, on the weight of the MZKT with its body and mechanization of the roof. And so the Container .... and PU in one bottle. And the 122mm Grad has a different situation.
  7. 0
    6 June 2023 09: 56
    Why not follow the path of Himars and make a launcher with a 600mm missile (with a range of 300-400km) with a conventional BR (relatively cheap) with Glonnas guidance? On Kamaz 1 pc, on MZKT - 2 pcs?
    And the second part of the problem and task here is Intelligence and control and data transfer (fast) to launchers.
    1. 0
      7 June 2023 02: 22
      Quote: Zaurbek
      Why not follow the path of Himars and make a launcher with a 600mm missile (with a range of 300-400km) with a conventional BR (relatively cheap) with Glonnas guidance? On Kamaz 1 pc, on MZKT - 2 pcs?
      And the second part of the problem and task here is Intelligence and control and data transfer (fast) to launchers.

      We have the Iskander OTRK.
      1. +1
        7 June 2023 08: 59
        Compare the Iskander OTRK missile with the MLRS missile. And everything will become clear. In the bottom caliber, not all targets need:
        1. quasi-ballistic trajectory
        2. Sophisticated radar and IR seeker
        3. Stealth cover
        4. Complexes for overcoming missile defense.

        But you need:
        1. 500kg warhead (with different content)
        2. High precision
        3. Low s / b and mass character.
        1. 0
          2 August 2023 05: 13
          Quote: Zaurbek
          Compare the Iskander OTRK missile with the MLRS missile. And everything will become clear. In the bottom caliber, not all targets need:
          1. quasi-ballistic trajectory
          2. Sophisticated radar and IR seeker
          3. Stealth cover
          4. Complexes for overcoming missile defense.

          But you need:
          1. 500kg warhead (with different content)
          2. High precision
          3. Low s / b and mass character.

          Maybe then the KN-25 will suit you?



          Or Golan-1000?
  8. +3
    6 June 2023 10: 59
    New equipment is good, but as the NWO shows, the creation of a modern command and control system is of paramount importance. Starting from satellite constellations of reconnaissance and communications and ending with the presence of mobile radios with encrypted communication channels, at least for platoons. Naturally, we need our own communications satellites of the Maskov type, already mentioned above, to integrate all data into a single system (including data even from any platoon drone). would be in hand." Modern warfare is a battle for time above all else. But of course, for the time being, the absence of the Russian Federation's own electronic base is embarrassing.
  9. 0
    6 June 2023 11: 12
    It should be noted that the reduction of the transportable ammunition will have a significant impact on the combat capabilities of the complex as a whole. Because of this, "Sarma" may lose the functions of the multiple launch rocket system. At the same time, new ammunition with enhanced performance will allow it to take an intermediate position between the MLRS and tactical missile systems.

    Such a relatively inexpensive system (according to GLONASS), with such a caliber for such a range, is needed primarily for delivering "stinging" strikes against enemy rear targets. Such as warehouses, troop deployment points, small but important bridges, etc.
    Somewhere I read an article about new MLRS systems for combating air defense. There is such a principle. From the launcher of the MLRS, a drone is launched for reconnaissance and target designation, and then a MLRS package with separating low-profile planning high-precision bombs flies. For such purposes, a drone delivered by a MLRS rocket is a must. An ordinary drone still needs to fly to the reconnaissance area. And here, a drone with delivery on a MLRS rocket is much more likely to receive information.
    1. +1
      6 June 2023 15: 30
      A certain period of time will pass between the launch of a rocket with a reconnaissance and the actual strike. I'm estimating from 5 to 15 minutes. Until the scout finds the target. And the launch of a rocket with a reconnaissance unmasks the position of the installation.
      So that's not good. While you wait, you can get a return.
      Intelligence must live its own life uninterrupted. And always be there. In two steps / ears.
      And what you described is dangerous.
      1. 0
        13 June 2023 01: 57
        Quote: garri-lin
        And the launch of a rocket with a reconnaissance unmasks the position of the installation.
        So that's not good. While you wait, you can get a return.


        Doesn't necessarily unmask. It all depends on the type of accelerating unit and the acceleration trajectory. If you accelerate the UAV at a height of 30-40 meters from the ground, it will be difficult to detect it. And it will fly off for a couple of kilometers and then at least turn on the powder accelerators, at least raise it to a height.
  10. +3
    6 June 2023 12: 44
    For me, all these systems are of the same type. The whole secret is directly in the guided missile
  11. -1
    6 June 2023 12: 47
    It is necessary to make a new MLRS in the event that a cardinal increase in the firing range is achieved, 300 or more kilometers. And create similar systems in addition to Tornado-S
  12. -2
    6 June 2023 12: 56
    It is not necessary to rivet pipes, but to make long-range missiles! We need work on new gunpowders, we need ranges not a pitiful hundred kilometers, but hundreds! The guidance equipment should be new, that's what needs to be developed, and not wind new trunks on the unfortunate KamAZ!
    1. -1
      6 June 2023 16: 36
      We do not need an uberwaffe based on fantastic technologies with a huge range and a price by weight in gold. This is pure sabotage and sabotage. Ten pieces of Uberwaffe for the parade will not win the war, but rather lose, because they will gobble up the already very modest economic opportunities of the country.
      We need a system that is massive (relatively cheap) and at the same time highly accurate. And the contradiction here is imaginary. Just where it is possible, it is necessary to cut the sturgeon, and where it is impossible, there to rest, dodge, but provide. And HIMARS is a good starting point here. We only make cheap compact chassis, and moderately expensive highly toxic missiles.
      More specifically, at a minimum, we need to ensure the superiority of the MLRS in range over cannon artillery (as the most massive enemy means of fire damage), and parity with the enemy mass MLRS, therefore we limit the sturgeon in range to 70-90 km (like Smerch), and more in in the mass segment we do not wave (an analogue of ATACMS is categorically implied as a long arm for exclusive purposes). We make rockets much shorter than that of Tornado (yes, the elongation is less - aerodynamics are worse, but in terms of overall efficiency it’s better to let it be heavier than longer), we cut the number of rockets in the package (not replaceable, for cheapness) and put it all on an ordinary three-axle URAL or KAMAZ (maybe not armored at all, because we rely on distance, camouflage and mobility). As a result, this shift in emphasis seriously reduces the price of the chassis, the cost of operation and repair, greatly facilitates the passage through all sorts of winding forest primers, and, accordingly, radically facilitates camouflage (You can’t hide a tornado in a coppice, but you can already try URAL). It was something that was cheap, but something that was not quite cheap but very angry - ALL missiles are strictly from GLONAS, but on cheap Chinese chips. The missiles, of course, will not be cheap, perhaps comparable to Tornado, but their consumption on the target will be many times less. And so there is a sharp gap in combat effectiveness per ruble spent compared to Tornado. Yes, and compared to HIMARS too, because the chassis is cheap, and the missiles will obviously be several times cheaper than American ones, because here cheap civilian electronics + domestic prices from the manufacturer for the product, and there expensive military electronics + export prices.
    2. 0
      7 June 2023 02: 31
      Quote: Vadim S
      It is not necessary to rivet pipes, but to make long-range missiles! We need work on new gunpowders, we need ranges not a pitiful hundred kilometers, but hundreds! The guidance equipment should be new, that's what needs to be developed, and not wind new trunks on the unfortunate KamAZ!

      New guided 300-mm ammunition 9M544, 9M549 for MLRS "Tornado-S".

  13. +1
    6 June 2023 14: 16
    Quote: Zaurbek
    Why not follow the path of Himars and make a launcher with a 600mm missile (with a range of 300-400km) with a conventional BR (relatively cheap) with Glonnas guidance?


    There is an "Iskander" and it already occupies this niche. By the way, why did you get the idea that a long-range missile for a "chimera" is relatively cheap? Most likely - not very much. Then in what - following the path of the "chimera"?
    What you need is a cheaper analogue of the Iskander with reduced characteristics (in terms of range, warhead power. 250-300 km range, warhead - 300 kg). To solve some problems, the characteristics of the Iskander are clearly redundant. That is, to supplement the Iskander OTRK with a tactical missile system, which can be produced much more massively.
    1. 0
      6 June 2023 15: 31
      "Point U" revive.
      And a little for the number of letters so that the comments are missed.
      1. 0
        6 June 2023 15: 40
        This is the replacement of TochkaU ..... more compact and distant
        1. 0
          6 June 2023 21: 58
          I understand. But the presented system has one drawback. Small warhead. For "hard" purposes, this is bad.
          MLRS with the possibility of using guided munitions is it good? But I would like an inexpensive OTRK with the same range of 150 km but with a large warhead
          And for some reason they don’t want to put everything on one chassis.
    2. +1
      6 June 2023 16: 11
      Quote: Illanatol
      That is, to supplement the Iskander OTRK with a tactical missile system, which can be produced much more massively.

      ... based on a heavy MLRS launcher. smile
      The main advantage of MLRS and its younger brother is its versatility.
      Firstly, unlike specialized launchers, in the case of a universal system, it is very difficult for the enemy to determine what is crawling behind the front line: a multiply charged launcher of NURSs (or rather, light tactical ballistic missiles) or a single / double-shot OTR launcher. Moreover, the enemy will have too many targets to take out all the OTP launchers.
      Secondly, the universal chassis facilitates the supply, maintenance, repair and preparation of aircraft.
      1. 0
        7 June 2023 09: 00
        Create a rocket in caliber 600mm. Simple, like a correspondent MLRS. Bulk. And applicable with MLRS and Iskander.
        1. 0
          13 June 2023 02: 04
          Quote: Zaurbek
          Create a rocket in caliber 600mm. Simple, like a correspondent MLRS. Bulk. And applicable with MLRS and Iskander.

          What about the meaning? Iskander needs not just missiles, but his own missiles. It makes no sense to hang a "simple" missile on it, it will not be able to give its target designation properly, in the same place the launchers are spaced for many kilometers.
          For such a rocket, a much simpler chassis is needed. But how to hope for a reliable reception of global positioning signals? And without it, a cheap rocket will not work.
    3. 0
      6 June 2023 17: 22
      By the way, where did you get the idea that a long-range missile for a "chimera" is relatively cheap?

      GMLRS by the US Army in 2023 is purchased at a price of $167 per unit. It is planned to purchase 956 units.
      ER GMLRS and PrSm are not yet purchased.
      PS In 2022, they bought at a price of 147. Based on the results of the application in Ukraine, advertising did its job, increased the cost.
      1. +1
        6 June 2023 19: 23
        Quote: A vile skeptic
        By the way, where did you get the idea that a long-range missile for a "chimera" is relatively cheap?

        GMLRS by the US Army in 2023 is purchased at a price of $167 per unit. It is planned to purchase 956 units.
        ER GMLRS and PrSm are not yet purchased.
        PS In 2022, they bought at a price of 147. Based on the results of the application in Ukraine, advertising did its job, increased the cost.

        I think it's not so much advertising as inflation. And in the US in 2022, it was almost 10%
    4. 0
      7 June 2023 15: 02
      You can compare the Iskander BR with the same regular BR. And prices...
    5. 0
      2 August 2023 05: 19
      Quote: Illanatol
      Quote: Zaurbek
      Why not follow the path of Himars and make a launcher with a 600mm missile (with a range of 300-400km) with a conventional BR (relatively cheap) with Glonnas guidance?


      There is an "Iskander" and it already occupies this niche. By the way, why did you get the idea that a long-range missile for a "chimera" is relatively cheap? Most likely - not very much. Then in what - following the path of the "chimera"?
      What you need is a cheaper analogue of the Iskander with reduced characteristics (in terms of range, warhead power. 250-300 km range, warhead - 300 kg). To solve some problems, the characteristics of the Iskander are clearly redundant. That is, to supplement the Iskander OTRK with a tactical missile system, which can be produced much more massively.

      The KN-25 is suitable for the role of a tactical missile system.


  14. 0
    6 June 2023 22: 41
    Nonsense, of course, dogging 30-cm logs in one gulp over the squares. For such missiles, an individual homing head is simply required. Enough to arrange "lunar landscapes".
  15. 0
    7 June 2023 02: 09
    The most important thing is that the MLRS "Sarma" does not suffer the fate of the MLRS "Kama".
  16. -1
    7 June 2023 02: 51
    I hope that KamAZ-6560M with an armored cab will be taken as a chassis for the Sarma MLRS.

    And it would not be bad if the Sarma MLRS were bicaliber (220, 300 mm) with batch reloading like the Czech RM-70 Modular MV MLRS.



    1. -1
      7 June 2023 15: 50
      No need for bicaliber. Multicaliber. And open the architecture of the LMS. So that algorithms can be added for any new rocket.
      1. 0
        2 August 2023 05: 21
        Quote: garri-lin
        No need for bicaliber. Multicaliber. And open the architecture of the LMS. So that algorithms can be added for any new rocket.

        Agree, it would be nice.
  17. -1
    7 June 2023 08: 36
    Quote: Alexey RA
    ... based on a heavy MLRS launcher. smile
    The main advantage of MLRS and its younger brother is its versatility.
    Firstly, unlike specialized launchers, in the case of a universal system, it is very difficult for the enemy to determine what is crawling behind the front line: a multiply charged launcher of NURSs (or rather, light tactical ballistic missiles) or a single / double-shot OTR launcher. Moreover, the enemy will have too many targets to take out all the OTP launchers.
    Secondly, the universal chassis facilitates the supply, maintenance, repair and preparation of aircraft.


    For what? The chassis can be used similar, and PU - your own. By the way, and for the "chimera", when one more rocket instead of six small ones, you don't have to change the launcher?

    The point is not at all in universality, but in the external similarity of launchers, that's all. What prevents us from making a launcher for the fuel dispenser that looks like the guides of the same "Tornado"? Never mind. And the chassis may well be the same. The weight of such a fuel dispenser will obviously not be more than that of the RS package (which the Tornado has, as it were, more than the Chimera).
  18. 0
    7 June 2023 08: 38
    Quote: garri-lin
    Point U" to revitalize.


    Morally obsolete. It is possible to create a much more perfect fuel dispenser.
    1. 0
      7 June 2023 15: 53
      I mean not to recreate again. I meant something with the capabilities of Tosca at the modern level. It will be cheaper than Iskander and more powerful than MLRS with guided missiles.
      1. 0
        13 June 2023 02: 07
        Quote: garri-lin
        I mean not to recreate again. I meant something with the capabilities of Tosca at the modern level. It will be cheaper than Iskander and more powerful than MLRS with guided missiles.


        It won't work out cheaper. And why do we need pure ballistics with the modern development of air defense / missile defense?
  19. 0
    7 June 2023 08: 43
    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
    GMLRS...


    Is this a long-range missile? This is not a rocket at all, but only a rocket projectile, albeit a guided one and not very long-range (compared to a fuel dispenser).
    It was about ATACMS. How about the local mall. And I strongly suspect that this prodigy is much more expensive, hardly cheaper than an Iskander rocket (when converted at the official rate).
    1. +1
      7 June 2023 11: 22
      Is this a long-range missile?

      Range is a relative concept.
      This is not a rocket at all, but only a rocket projectile, albeit a guided one and not very long-range (compared to a fuel dispenser).
      It was about ATACMS.

      And how, in relation to the products under discussion, does a rocket differ from a rocket projectile? )))
      PS In the country that created these missiles, there are two terms - rocket and missile. So guided rockets are called missiles)))
      It was about ATACMS.

      In the message to which I replied, it was about missiles for the "chimera". Although, formally, that the M39, that the M57 can also be used with the M142 HIMARS, but in reality they are not included in the provision of these machines, in accordance with the accepted structure of the units. They are tormented by MGM140 until 2025. And that's it.
  20. 0
    7 June 2023 14: 24
    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
    Range is a relative concept.


    However, tactical missiles are also distinguished from operational-tactical ones in terms of flight range.

    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
    And how, in relation to the products under discussion, does a rocket differ from a rocket projectile?


    By mass, by warhead power. "Katyusha" (BM-13) fired missiles or RS?
    By the way, at first this installation was called "raisa" (just from the RS).


    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
    In the message to which I replied, it was about missiles for the "chimera". Although, formally, that the M39, that the M57 can also be used with the M142 HIMARS, but in reality they are not included in the provision of these machines, in accordance with the accepted structure of units


    You ukram explain it. They all ask for ATACMS for their "chimeras" laughing
    1. +2
      7 June 2023 15: 04
      However, tactical missiles are also distinguished from operational-tactical ones in terms of flight range.

      Distinguish. We have. In the country that created the products under discussion, there is no operational level, this is the know-how of the USSR. Therefore, they have the M57 ATACMS - this is the same tactical missile (TBM by classification) as the M31 GMLRS.
      Even Wikipedia didn't blunder in this regard.
      Quote: Wikipedia about OTRK
      The term was used mainly in Soviet and Russian military literature, as well as in countries where Soviet military equipment was supplied. In the United States and NATO countries, the term artillery rockets has traditionally been used (English artillery rocket in relation to ballistic missiles and artillery missile to missiles equipped with INS with a corrected flight path).

      By mass, by warhead power.

      )))
      And what is the limit in terms of mass and power of warheads between rockets and missiles?
      "Katyusha" (BM-13) fired missiles or RS?

      You do not understand that a difference in the accepted classification is not equivalent to a difference in the principle of operation.
      Rocket - our classification for unguided missiles in a specific period of time. After all, what we, for example, used to refer to in aviation as NURSs (reactive), later transformed into NARs (missiles). While only the name has changed.
      And if you look at how BM-13 ammunition is called in English-speaking countries, you will see that the word "rocket" is used for this - a rocket, not a reactive shell.
      You ukram explain it. They all ask for ATACMS for their "chimeras"

      Why should I explain to them. They themselves know it is reckless to consider the enemy stupid. Why did you decide that you are asking for "chimeras" and not for MLRS?
      1. 0
        9 June 2023 09: 06
        What starts from the iskander vertically upwards, and then lays down on a course, is a rocket. Like the caliber. And what is directed to the side and aims by turning the guides is a rocket projectile.
        But if the rocket is guided with flight correction, then it can be called a rocket.
  21. 0
    8 June 2023 09: 28
    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
    And what is the limit in terms of mass and power of warheads between rockets and missiles?


    A rocket projectile is therefore a projectile, which corresponds to an artillery shell in caliber, even the largest. We have for RS MLRS and indicate the caliber, as for a projectile (for example, 125 mm or 305 mm). And a rocket is something that already goes beyond these limits. For the Iskander rocket, the caliber is no longer indicated.
    1. -1
      8 June 2023 12: 02
      A rocket projectile is therefore a projectile, which corresponds to an artillery shell in caliber, even the largest. We have for RS MLRS and indicate the caliber, as for a projectile (for example, 125 mm or 305 mm). And a rocket is something that already goes beyond these limits. For the Iskander rocket, the caliber is no longer indicated.

      This is your personal definition, which has nothing to do with military terminology. This is the first.
      Second. Even within your definition, the given conditions are not met. AGM-65 with its 305 mm or AIM-120, AGM-114 with its 180 mm correspond to the calibers of artillery shells. Does that make them rockets according to your "classification"? "Even the largest" artillery shell had a caliber of 914 mm. Will you insist that there are no missiles smaller than this diameter?
  22. -1
    12 June 2023 06: 50
    How late this car would have been, it was 10 years late, but it’s a pity how many lives of civilians in the Donbas could be saved!
  23. 0
    7 July 2023 13: 55
    I wonder when the final bet will be made on high-precision munitions instead of plowing the fields with echelons of ammunition ... this is not yet visible in the article .. and it’s time to start miniaturizing weapons ... the cyclopean dimensions of the gun mounts are already only bewildering ..
  24. 0
    16 August 2023 08: 06
    Better make Grad smart. With the ability to give
    smart missiles target designation on the battlefield. Directly to the squad leader. so that before the battle such a package would be ten kilometers behind. And during the battle, if necessary, it was possible to direct missiles from the package at certain targets of the enemy from the battle formations. That would be the thing.
    1. 0
      30 November 2023 21: 44
      That's right!
      I hope they will cut more high-precision projectiles for the Tornado-G...
  25. -1
    16 August 2023 21: 51
    Again, our sawers come up with how to cut more.
    Well, practice has already shown that we need universal MLRS, with modular packages with calibers from 122 to 600mm in the package.
    With independent mechanisms for replacing packages.
    So that no TZM, in principle, was in the composition of combat units.
    Yes, the MLRS idea is indeed the ideal combat MLRS. And her younger brother HIMARS.
    This is the best in combat conditions of use, and not a comparison of polygon numbers.

    Kama, Sarma - designers on trial. For the deliberate deterioration of the combat characteristics of future weapons.
    And up to the 7th knee, burn out all their design.
    Sawmillers.
  26. +1
    22 October 2023 13: 17
    Sorry, but China, Belarus, and America have a destruction range of 300 km, and why are we worse?
    1. 0
      23 October 2023 09: 19
      I'm thinking about this myself. Perhaps someone in the subject can clarify?
  27. 0
    25 November 2023 21: 15
    In my opinion, this would be good, at least from the point of view of safety and secrecy of movement of the MLRS, since the oversized MZKT chassis is easily selected by reconnaissance means, as, say, something out of the ordinary and definitely become primary targets for enemy weapons. The basic KamAZ will allow the launcher to “get lost” in a number of transport and other vehicles.