Ukraine as a cemetery and attack helicopters, and the concept of application

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Ukraine as a cemetery and attack helicopters, and the concept of application

Today, an epoch-making event for the world of military equipment is taking place in the air over territories with various statuses. In fact, the concept of using an attack helicopter as such is in decline, and the rotorcraft themselves get it from the heart.

It is very difficult to say how many attack helicopters have actually been lost by both sides, objective sources are very cautious on this topic, because ... because this is a war. And, if we count in the reports of both sides, then two numbers of helicopters available at the time of February 24.02.2022, XNUMX on both sides have already been destroyed.



At least back in October 2022, Konashenkov’s department (About destroyed aircraft) announced the destruction of 162 Ukrainian helicopters. The problem is that at the beginning of the NWO, the Armed Forces of Ukraine did not have such a number of helicopters, even taking into account training and prototypes. Alas. Therefore, we will not count the losses, this is a matter for a separate investigation, we will simply take as a starting point what, in general, observers and analysts say that Russia and Ukraine lost a total of about a hundred attack helicopters.


This is a very significant figure, which really makes you wonder how much further the helicopter will be useful at all, since its vulnerabilities multiply, and the combat vehicle may simply become obsolete as a class.

Of course, an attack helicopter - it motivates, and very seriously. The sight of how slowly (unlike airplanes) a car, hung with guns and rockets, takes off from the ground and flies somewhere where it will become hot for those who are against us - this is really impressive.


And whoever saw what kind of "twists" the Ka-52 can make, how he can "reverse", he will understand what I mean. Well, and "dive" before you arrange a branch of hell on a single section of the earth's surface.

However, for a year (a little more), this image has faded somewhat. And the attack helicopter, in order to survive as a class, will have to go through a very significant revision of both itself and the concept of application.

What's the matter? And the point is the development of MANPADS. Today, dashing cavalry attacks by attack helicopters in the style of Soviet Il-2 attack aircraft are a thing of the past. Moreover, in the NMD we saw with our own eyes a “new” technique - NURS bullets from a nose-up “somewhere in the direction of the enemy”. The reception, of course, yes, allows you to save the helicopter without exposing it to enemy air defense systems. It is pointless to ask the question of accuracy here, NAR - it is NAR in Africa, that is, an unguided rocket. She already has in the case of a direct fire launch with accuracy very so-so, therefore it is necessary to release a pack, maybe something will hit, and even more so from a pitch-up ...


A senseless translation of missiles, nothing more.

Perhaps one of the most motivating sights on the modern battlefield is the friendly attack helicopter, bristling with guns, missiles and projectiles, dropping low as it dives forward to inflict death and destruction on the enemy.

But what if a MANPADS fighter can sit in every trench and wait until the corresponding color light comes on on the panel in order to press the rocket launch button?


And when practice showed that an ATGM can be illuminated in such a way that it doesn’t seem enough, it turned out that the entire enemy defense line is simply oversaturated with means capable of dropping a helicopter to the ground. We do not seem to forget about small-caliber anti-aircraft artillery and heavy machine guns.

In general, it doesn't matter how many helicopters Russia has lost, but how many Ukraine has lost. It is clear that Ukraine is smaller, because initially everything was very bad with helicopters there.

The problem for Russian helicopters is the sheer number of short-range surface-to-air missiles that NATO and the West have sent to Ukraine. NATO sent thousands of man-portable air defense systems, including at least 2 FIM-557 Stingers and an unknown number of Piorun, Sungur, Strela-92, Igla and RBS-2 missile systems.


Actually, the Russian "Game" and "Verba" are no worse, but only add their mite to the big picture.

In general, when was the class of attack helicopters born in our country? That's right, during the American-Vietnamese war. The helicopter was generally a very successful means against a weakly armed enemy, until the moment the Stingers appeared.

The US Army made extensive use of helicopters to transport troops to and from the battlefield, and they were often subjected to intense ground fire. After the first modification of transport helicopters to carry missiles and additional machine guns, the army decided that it needed a special armed helicopter capable of escorting transport helicopters and performing the role of flying artillery.


The result was the AH-1 Cobra helicopter, which carried a 20mm cannon and 70mm rockets. After the war, the Army adapted the Cobra for an anti-tank role, equipping it with ATGMs. In the event of World War III and the Soviet invasion of Europe, Cobra helicopters armed with TOW anti-tank missiles could turn quickly to meet and slow down tank hordes of the Soviet army.

Yet despite their clear advantages, there was the nagging question of how vulnerable they were to a modern, well-equipped enemy like the USSR. For a very long time this question remained open, especially after 1991, when the USSR was gone, but the helicopters remained.

Although losses aviation The United States in the Vietnam War of 1957-1975, despite the fact that Vietnam could not boast of either a good air defense system or its own aviation (yes, the USSR did a lot for Vietnam), but the loss in US aircraft officially 3 aircraft of all brands and types , in helicopters - 374 vehicles.


Moreover, (there is no reason not to believe) according to the Americans, most of the helicopters were shot down by small arms weapons and small-caliber anti-aircraft artillery.

World War III never happened in Europe until 1991, and the vulnerability of attack helicopters was never fully tested. Before the war in Ukraine, however, there were signs that the helicopters were in trouble: in 1999, the US Army deployed attack helicopters to Albania to intervene in the civil war in Yugoslavia, but, among other things, the helicopters never went into action due to the threat" fire from small arms, anti-aircraft guns and MANPADS.

In March 2003, during the invasion of Iraq, 32 AH-64 Apache attack helicopters took to the air to attack the Medina Republican Guard Division. One helicopter was shot down and several others were heavily damaged by enemy fire.

Today, the United States operates 819 Apache attack helicopters and 91 AH-1Z attack helicopters, which is quite impressive both militarily and financially.


The investment in security is at a decent level, especially when you consider that the average AN-64 Apache costs about $36 million apiece.

With a crew of two, a helicopter also endangers those two, and as the war in Ukraine has shown, crews of helicopters shot down by MANPADS often do not survive being shot down. Simply because these are helicopters, although statistics on the Ka-52 with its catapults would not hurt here. But it is not, so it remains only to predict.

If an attack helicopter is obsolete, there is a real incentive to quickly decommission it and move on to something else - perhaps armed drones. Exactly the same that both sides use today in the NWO. At the very least, the UAV is capable of hitting a target from a tank to a car without putting the operator's life at risk. This is a given today.

And of course drones-kamikaze. A new weapon that can greatly push the helicopter on the battlefield precisely due to its size and not sacrificing people.

An interesting point.

At the beginning of the NMD, Ukraine (Air Force + Army Aviation) had at its disposal 35-37 Mi-24s of all modifications and about 70 Mi-8s of all types. How many of them were on the move is unknown, but it is clear that not all of them were in flying condition.


For more than a year, Ukraine has lost at least 30 helicopters, the main losses were on the Mi-8.

And, pay attention, the Ukrainians do not ask for helicopters from the allies. Tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, self-propelled guns, air defense systems, tactical missiles, aircraft - but they don’t ask for helicopters. No one. What does it say?

Mark Kansian, senior adviser at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, believes that Ukraine does not ask for a single helicopter, since they (helicopters) could not show their effectiveness in the face of anti-aircraft defense, especially MZA and MANPADS. This mainly indicates a lack of interest based on wartime experience.

Interesting alignment, isn't it?

Ukrainians, who have 70-100 helicopters, have nowhere to use them. What can we say about the United States, which has 10 times more helicopters? What will the founders of the attack helicopter business do tomorrow, when it becomes very crowded over the battlefield?

The US Army is going to introduce the ALE system, which is designed to replace anti-tank missiles with anti-tank kamikaze drones. What is the difference? Application difference. A drone, unlike a missile, can hover over the battlefield outside the range of air defense or outside the detection zone (a height of 200-300 meters is enough) and wait for the operator’s command, which can just be in a helicopter playing the role of a kind of drone mother.

The picture is quite sane: the helicopter hangs at a decent distance from the front line and the operators look at the battlefield through the eyes of copter cameras, which patrol in the sky above the clash. That is, the helicopter plays the role of an air command post and a UAV delivery vehicle to the place of application.

As needed, the UAVs, at the command of the operators, hit the selected targets.

Why a helicopter and not a ground command post? Everything is simple. An antenna raised by 400-500 meters will give a great advantage both in the communication range and in quality. Plus, the helicopter is more mobile, and if electronic warfare equipment appears on the scene, it can easily change position. Plus, the second point in this use of a helicopter is the collection of information about the enemy from drones in real time. And adjusting the actions of the enemy by using a high-explosive fragmentation or cumulative UAV warhead.

True, an armored attack helicopter with weapons is not needed to perform such tasks. Enough transport vehicle.

But it may also happen that attack helicopters will return to the skies over the battlefield ... in their unmanned version. Modern information transmission systems can easily cope with such a task, which can really return the role of a front-line strike machine to the helicopter. With a decrease in size or an increase in the ammunition load due to the life support systems of the crew and human control systems.

Quite an option: either more weapons, or smaller sizes.

Meanwhile, an Air Launched Effects (ALE) drone test has already been conducted from a UH-60 Blackhawk transport helicopter. And it was done successfully. These kamikaze drones have a decent range in terms of control, and therefore can really ensure the safety of carrier helicopters and collect data on the enemy.

Military operations in Ukraine clearly showed the shortcomings of an attack helicopter in modern warfare, in conditions of saturation of the front line with air defense systems, MANPADS and MZA. And I am sure that soon all the military analysts of the leading countries will begin to puzzle over the results obtained from Ukraine. And this is normal, moreover, at one time an attack helicopter was one of the cornerstones on which NATO's anti-tank defense against the USSR was built.

In general, in those days it was believed that the USSR would operate with huge tank wedges, which was generally confirmed by tens of thousands of produced tanks. And it was more than a serious threat. Therefore, in Europe and the United States, designers feverishly worked on ATGMs and achieved success in this. That is why helicopters were built capable of carrying ATGMs and hitting tanks with them. In general, until recently it was believed that the helicopter is the main enemy of the tank.

But it turned out that the helicopter and its enemies are higher than the roof. Especially MZA and MANPADS, inexpensive and simple, and therefore affordable.

So, in principle, it is time to assimilate the information received from Ukraine and sit down to rethink the concept of using attack helicopters up to its abolition as such.

There are reports that work has already begun in China in this direction. The Chinese military is very closely studying the results of hostilities on the territory of Ukraine in order to make appropriate adjustments. After all, to be honest, the PLA was written off from the Soviet army. Accordingly, there are more than enough helicopters in the ground forces of the PLA. About a thousand. And it is possible that the leadership of the Chinese army will easily begin a hard move away from the use of helicopters to the creation of an army of drones along the lines of the American ALE.

Here it is worth saying a thoughtful phrase on the topic that time will put everything in its place. And this will be very logical, because if an attack helicopter, like a weapon, is outdated and can no longer perform its functions (and it is expensive, and the crew is a delicate and piece business), then it should be removed from the battlefield as unnecessary. About the same as the battleships and cruisers were removed.

This, I emphasize, is exclusively about land attack helicopters. Their colleagues (especially anti-submarine ones) can feel calm, because so far no real replacement is foreseen for them.


But what the attack helicopter will turn into tomorrow is still difficult to say. But you can observe all the phases of its transformation or decline, followed by resignation.
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  1. +33
    30 May 2023 04: 21
    Back in October 2022, Konashenkov’s Office (On Destroyed Aviation) announced the destruction of 162 Ukrainian helicopters. The problem is that at the beginning of the NWO, the Armed Forces of Ukraine did not have such a number of helicopters, even taking into account training and prototypes.

    The "problem" arose as a result of the author's suppression of the facts of deliveries of helicopters to Ukraine from abroad.
    For example, Ukraine received fourteen Mi-8 helicopters from Croatia.

    And this is what lies on the surface, you don't even need to "dig". Who knows how many more and where Ukraine received helicopters from?
    1. +23
      30 May 2023 06: 22
      Quote: Comrade
      Who knows how many more helicopters Ukraine received and from where?


      US may buy AH-64A Apache attack helicopters from Israel to transfer them to Ukraine
      First-generation Apache helicopters, which the Israeli military has named Peten, will be transferred to Ukraine through the mediation of the United States in exchange for Echo variant Apache helicopters.
      Mi-24 from North Macedonia. In addition, two units of Mi-35 (export version of Mi-24) were handed over to Ukraine by the Czech Republic, they have not been asked from the French yet, in general, a shirt with a thread-bare shirt from the world.
      In mid-January 2023, Bloomberg published a list of military equipment transferred by the West to Ukraine. According to the publication, since the beginning of the special military operation, Western countries have transferred to Ukraine 4 units of armored vehicles, artillery pieces, aircraft and other weapons systems.
      Aircraft, helicopters and drones: 14 Soviet Su-25 attack aircraft bought by NATO countries in Bulgaria and transferred to Ukraine; four Su-25s from North Macedonia; 20 Russian-made Mi-17 helicopters; 11 Soviet-designed helicopters from the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Latvia; three British helicopters Westland Sea Kings; six Kamov helicopters from Portugal; more than 30 Bayraktar TB2 drones from Turkey and one more each from Lithuania and Poland; hundreds of American kamikaze Switchblade drones; 415 reconnaissance drones.
      And this is only official, but God only knows how much is illegal through arms dealers using murky schemes.
      1. +1
        30 May 2023 09: 59
        Quote: Ascetic
        US may buy AH-64A Apache attack helicopters from Israel to transfer them to Ukraine

        They have plenty of their own.
        Quote: Ascetic
        And this is only official, but how much is illegal through arms dealers using murky schemes

        Combat helicopters follow murky schemes are rare, too noticeable.
        1. 0
          30 May 2023 14: 14
          Quote: Negro
          Quote: Ascetic
          US may buy AH-64A Apache attack helicopters from Israel to transfer them to Ukraine
          They have plenty of their own.


          Israel annually receives more than $1 billion in strictly military-related subsidies from the US (for the purchase of American military equipment and equipment) to continue its military expansion into Palestine, as well as more than $5 billion (not exactly) in non-strictly military subsidies. So here the scheme is simple: buy the old helicopter from the Jews, for example, for 10% of the cost of the new one and immediately sell the new helicopter to the Jews (to drive the Palestinians and not only), and repair the purchased used helicopter and send it for recycling to Ukraine. A double benefit is obtained: both taxpayers' money was saved and the volume of sales (and repairs) of military equipment was increased.
          1. +3
            31 May 2023 08: 57
            The problem is not at all that the helicopter is outdated, but that our tactics for using them are outdated and that our helicopters were not armed with modern missiles. Only during the NMD did the first use and testing of the use of the latest missiles not with laser but with thermal and television guidance begin, and these missiles were not developed at all by order of the Ministry of Defense.
            And if you equip the Ka-52 with TV-guided missiles with a range of 15-20 km, with a warhead sufficient to destroy any tank, if you equip the Ka-52 with advanced electronic warfare systems, plus create a modern and massive space and aviation reconnaissance, including UAVs, as well as a massive information exchange system linking ground troops, aviation, artillery and air defense, then an attack helicopter becomes a modern, formidable and important element of this system, capable of inflicting fast, accurate and massive strikes on exposed targets even in the depths of enemy defenses.
            Although our dumb-headed and untrained generals and their friends embezzlers from the military-industrial complex cannot understand this in principle, give them a modern UAV to control the helicopter, hammering nails with a microscope is the norm for them, most of them do not understand why a tablet is needed.
            1. +2
              3 June 2023 14: 58
              And if you equip the Ka-52 with TV-controlled missiles with a range of 15-20 km,

              You do not argue with the author, you only confirm his idea about a helicopter - a carrier of a kamikaze UAV, and long-range ATGM missiles with television control - in principle, the same FPV drones. Just different speed, price, production.
      2. +6
        31 May 2023 03: 41
        Quote: Ascetic
        US may buy AH-64A Apache attack helicopters from Israel to transfer them to Ukraine

        Can not. Israel has no clean AN-64A left, they were upgraded back in 2017. They have Israeli systems on them, which will have to be removed, and then the Yankees will re-equip them (with what?). It's long, expensive and stupid. The AOI wants to renew the fleet, but this is not a matter of "today or tomorrow", but of several years, and no one will write off old cars until the replacement is in service. A hole in 20 cars (out of 60), this is nonsense.
        So all the speculations on this topic are the fantasies of journalists with reduced social responsibility who do not understand the topic.
    2. +6
      30 May 2023 06: 48
      Part of the equipment was disabled, it is still being restored this equipment
    3. +10
      30 May 2023 07: 01
      Quote: Comrade
      Who knows how many more helicopters Ukraine received and from where?

      The US Khinziram received fresh Afghan Mi-17V-5 aircraft.
      As for our losses in Dzhankoy, a memorial was recently opened to the pilots of the 39th separate helicopter regiment, who died in the line of military duty in the Special Military Operation.
  2. +6
    30 May 2023 04: 29
    CBO is not an indicator. Those MANPADS that the Armed Forces have, scraped together throughout NATO and their sympathetic countries. Scraped stocks to the bottom, so that replenishment at the current rate of production will take years. How many other countries are NATO's favorite concubine? And, let's say, Israel safely and quite successfully nightmares Hamas and other jihadists in Gaza with helicopters. So it's too early to bury attack helicopters as a class. Though there are definitely things to take note of.
    1. +17
      30 May 2023 06: 07
      And, let's say, Israel safely and quite successfully nightmares Hamas and other jihadists in Gaza with helicopters.
      What you write rather confirms the words of the author. These "guys" just don't have MANPADS and MZA. But the black market for weapons is replenished with what is supplied to Ukraine. So, we'll wait and see.
      1. +12
        30 May 2023 09: 57
        Quote: Vladivostok1969
        And, let's say, Israel safely and quite successfully nightmares Hamas and other jihadists in Gaza with helicopters.
        What you write rather confirms the words of the author. These "guys" just don't have MANPADS and MZA. But the black market for weapons is replenished with what is supplied to Ukraine. So, we'll wait and see.

        You, like the author, make a strange conclusion ... CONDITIONALLY - from the fact that the flintlock musket is outdated and no longer effective, it is concluded that firearms are, in principle, outdated and should retire ... this is completely wrong ... Ukrainian helicopters, I would not considered - we have superiority in air defense and air force (after all, there is, right?), although it must be admitted that their helicopters show class in such conditions ... but for our many questions - the lack of normal suppression of the air force and air defense of the enemy, the absence of missiles "fired -forgot", the lack of normal communication and target designation systems forces pilots to either take risks (more likely not than yes, they got burned more than enough in 15 months) or shoot "somewhere there", which leads to about 0 efficiency ... the author himself writes - in 2003 32 US helicopters attacked an elite Iraqi Guards division and only one did not return… here is the performance indicator… combat losses were only 3%, 50% were fully ready to take off on the same day… and this was after a frontal attack on an Iraqi elite division dug out…
        1. +1
          30 May 2023 22: 32
          "CONDITIONALLY - from the fact that the flintlock musket is outdated and no longer effective, it is concluded that firearms are, in principle, outdated and should retire" - how difficult it is for you to read what you read. recourse Does the author say that any aircraft should retire? He just says the opposite - "what the attack helicopter will turn into tomorrow is still difficult to say. But you can observe all the phases of its transformation or decline, followed by retirement."
          And by your logic, you'd still be happy to run around with a flintlock musket. Or you clearly did not understand what is written in the article.
      2. +2
        31 May 2023 20: 44
        Quote: Vladivostok1969
        These "guys" just don't have MANPADS

        For a long time they have everything.
    2. +8
      30 May 2023 06: 49
      Closer to reality, in our time, all the tantrums in the media "we have no shells .... no missiles, etc., etc.," in principle, do not need to be believed. I am absolutely sure that they will have enough MANPADS for Taiwan and where else they will need it.
      1. -4
        30 May 2023 19: 07
        Hysteria, you say? You may not believe the media. It’s better to go on an assault with the support of artillery in 3 shells, while the enemy doesn’t spare shells on you, I’ll see how cold-blooded you will be, sofa warrior. Found a sign.
    3. +52
      30 May 2023 08: 27
      It is necessary to bury nurses as a class, not helicopters. Give a helicopter enough high-precision long-range weapons and it will be a battlefield nightmare. It can appear out of nowhere and disappear into nowhere, flying at a height of 5 meters. From a distance of 20 km, he rose from a forest clearing, fired a rocket and sat down on a neighboring one, how will you get him? The same highmars, but moves four times faster in any terrain.
      1. +9
        30 May 2023 18: 44
        Quote: puzoter
        It is necessary to bury nurses as a class, not helicopters. Give a helicopter enough high-precision long-range weapons and it will be a battlefield nightmare. It can appear out of nowhere and disappear into nowhere, flying at a height of 5 meters. From a distance of 20 km, he rose from a forest clearing, fired a rocket and sat down on a neighboring one, how will you get him? The same highmars, but moves four times faster in any terrain.

        Agree! And the NWO is clearly not talking about the weakness of helicopters, but about the weakness of their weapons! Give them modern and long-range weapons and then you will get a flying tank with a damage distance inaccessible to the enemy!
      2. +3
        30 May 2023 20: 38
        Here are the golden words. Free-falling bombs taught to hit more accurately, now it's the turn for the modernization of NURSs. Laying them at random is wasteful.
      3. -3
        30 May 2023 22: 36
        "Give a helicopter enough high-precision long-range weapons and it will be a battlefield nightmare." - well, exactly the same "high-precision and long-range weapons" will be against a helicopter. And everything will remain as it is.
      4. 0
        31 May 2023 00: 47
        For this, armored turntables with guns are not needed, armed transport workers and scouts are enough.
      5. -1
        3 June 2023 13: 39
        Quote: puzoter
        It is necessary to bury nurses as a class, not helicopters.

        A helicopter, or a group of combat helicopters, needs a pair of UAV helicopters with electronic warfare and radar, which fly at a distance from the main group and reveal targets and dangers for the helicopter group and missiles with a range of at least 15 km, the fire-and-forget principle and a TV channel, as well as with A warhead that can destroy both an MBT and a group of manpower within a radius of 20m, such as "hellfire". The Americans with Apache Blok3 implemented something similar. I saw a video of the work of the Whirlwind ATGM (or Shturm, it doesn’t matter) from a combat helicopter in Chechnya against 3 fleeing militants. So they hit the bull's-eye, stuck a meter and a half between the legs of the fleeing terrorists and "worked", godmother into the ground. The militants both ran and fled. Also, 70mm NURSs have long been upgraded from NURSs to URSs with a range of up to 8 km and very high accuracy, which are relatively inexpensive and save more expensive and complex missiles if you need to work up to 8 km. In general, modern combat is the presence of a network-centric combat information system, where motorized rifles and helicopters work together and the speed of reaction and decision-making is as high as possible.
      6. 0
        6 June 2023 01: 55
        Quote: puzoter
        It is necessary to bury nurses as a class, not helicopters. Give a helicopter enough high-precision long-range weapons and it will be a battlefield nightmare. It can appear out of nowhere and disappear into nowhere, flying at a height of 5 meters. From a distance of 20 km, he rose from a forest clearing, fired a rocket and sat down on a neighboring one, how will you get him? The same highmars, but moves four times faster in any terrain.

        NURSs were simply designed for a different tactic of use. Perhaps we just have a large number of them and it is better to apply than not to apply.
        After this war, many charters will be rewritten and technicians will be modernized. By the way, infa slipped that they made some kind of sight for firing from a pitch-up, and the NURSs themselves modernized and increased the warhead. There was info in the Fighterbomber telegram, but there is no data on the application yet.
    4. +15
      30 May 2023 08: 30
      Quote: Nagan
      CBO is not an indicator.

      Israel is successfully and quite successfully terrorizing Hamas and other jihadists in Gaza with helicopters.

      Right. The next question is why? The answer is simple. Our helicopters and weapons on them are outdated by 1-3 generations. Accordingly, the reasoning that obsolete weapons are not effectively logical, but this does not lead to the conclusion that they have no prospects.

      We need mass quantities of high-precision weapons, the latest reconnaissance and detection systems, communication of everyone with everyone.

      The modern role of the helicopter is clear. Ultra-mobile battery of high-precision missiles. In the near future, an augmented UAV.
    5. +6
      30 May 2023 10: 06
      Quote: Nagan
      let's say Israel is successfully and quite successfully blasting Hamas and other jihadists in Gaza with helicopters.

      Just Israel is gradually abandoning helicopters. The decision was made 10 years ago.
    6. +7
      30 May 2023 12: 32
      Well, firstly, the area is absolutely flat, plus or minus rivers and hills, there is nowhere to hide behind the folds of the terrain. Secondly, while helicopters show themselves as they can only in trench warfare from defense, when these same anti-aircraft gunners are sitting in the trenches. There is also such a thing as repelling the offensive of tank wedges, etc., etc. Soon we will probably see how effective the helicopters are there, when the infantry with stingers will be shoved into armored personnel carriers. Well, they’re not suicides, they stomp on foot under the artillery ... There, probably, helicopters will light up, and if they don’t light up, then you really need to replace them with drones or FPV systems of some kind ... Since mountains or dunes are not everywhere to stick out because of them . Or there will be helicopters on electricity so that the thermal head does not steer (although electric motors also produce immeasurable heat), on the other hand, with the development of AI, it will soon begin to steer by video. Fortunately, the intercom distinguishes faces well, and even a smart microcircuit will be able to distinguish a helicopter in the sky
      1. +4
        30 May 2023 13: 39
        Shot and forgot on our helicopters, it’s not like. Therefore, you have to hang and point, being a wonderful target yourself. On Syria’s TV, we saw clear videos of the defeat of pickup trucks by bearded men, but this is because bearded men with MANPADS are not very good.

        Under these conditions, a column of tanks in the steppes of Ukraine can be processed, but only at night, while the MANPADS operators do not see the targets (MANPADS with a teplok already exist, if that)
        1. +4
          31 May 2023 08: 44
          When launching an ATGM, the helicopter does not freeze, but maneuvers at a speed of about 100 km / h, while a supersonic anti-tank missile goes to the target at a speed of about 400 meters per second. That is, it flies 4 km, figuratively speaking, in 10 seconds. This time is absolutely not enough to hit the helicopter with return fire. Anti-aircraft artillery systems, including even 30-mm ones, at distances over two kilometers are practically useless in the fight against attack helicopters. Moans that helicopters with Russian ATGMs are vulnerable during launches are unfounded. Helicopters are vulnerable not when they launch ATGMs, but when they use ambushes on their way to the launch site or return to base. But this is not a question of armament and characteristics of helicopters, but of tactics and some other nuances.
        2. 0
          2 June 2023 14: 23
          Quote from uRRY
          Shot and forgot on our helicopters, it’s not like. Therefore, you have to hang and point, being a wonderful target yourself. On Syria’s TV, we saw clear videos of the defeat of pickup trucks by bearded men, but this is because bearded men with MANPADS are not very good.

          Under these conditions, a column of tanks in the steppes of Ukraine can be processed, but only at night, while the MANPADS operators do not see the targets (MANPADS with a teplok already exist, if that)

          Like in a garden. Now is not the time of the second Indochinese and old ATGMs.
    7. +13
      30 May 2023 14: 32
      Quote: Nagan
      VO is not an indicator. Those MANPADS that the Armed Forces have, scraped together throughout NATO and their sympathetic countries. Scraped stocks to the bottom, so that replenishment at the current rate of production will take years.


      Whoever has not repeated the idea that "NATO has already disarmed" or "NATO has run out of shells" ... well, yes, now you can sleep peacefully ...
      Do you seriously think that the world's first economy in terms of industrial exports (Germany) will not be able to quickly (!) Increase the production of any ammunition? Or, say, Sweden or France cannot do this? Those thirty years that some oligarchs built yachts for themselves in Europe and bought palaces, military science and industry of the NATO countries did not stand still. It is foolish to underestimate the enemy.
      1. +4
        30 May 2023 19: 14
        Quite right. All I hear is that NATO is everything. They ran out of shells and equipment, only now we had to observe the opposite, we are in a deep ... pit with supplies, starting from uniforms, ending with ammo
    8. +4
      31 May 2023 03: 53
      Quote: Nagan
      Though there are definitely things to take note of.

      Lots of solutions. Israel, for example, made a helicopter version of the Spike NLOS. The launch range from a helicopter is 36 km, it’s not like MANPADS, here not every full-fledged short-range air defense system will reach.
      The helicopter is too early to bury.
      1. 0
        2 June 2023 14: 24
        Quote: And Us Rat
        Quote: Nagan
        Though there are definitely things to take note of.

        Lots of solutions. Israel, for example, made a helicopter version of the Spike NLOS. The launch range from a helicopter is 36 km, it’s not like MANPADS, here not every full-fledged short-range air defense system will reach.
        The helicopter is too early to bury.

        as far as I understand, Spike is not an ATGM, but a hybrid with a killer drone.
  3. +7
    30 May 2023 04: 29
    On the one hand, there are more than enough reasons for reflection. On the other hand, it is not in vain that the military has developed powerful conservatism)
    Do not be in a hurry to abandon the technology that has proven itself in the past. Rather, the main problem here is that the parties, for various reasons, cannot engage in a mobile war and have run into a positional "Verdun", and a helicopter is the same means of mobile warfare as tanks and other armored vehicles.
    Again, there is a feeling that our vehicles, most likely, are very much lacking third-generation ATGMs that would expand the capabilities of the vehicle.
    At the same time, of course, the idea of ​​​​an unmanned helicopter as a platform for weapons is worthy of attention (although it will react worse to the environment than a manned vehicle, especially with our connection), and the KP helicopter for kamikaze drones is also worth it. to do (although at the mentioned 400-500 meters, enemy long-range air defense will land such a machine even over our territory).
    However, there are fears that, given the economic crisis and the peculiarities of national work on R & D in the post-Soviet period, we will not see such machines very soon (especially in commercial quantities), so "we have no other equipment for you." Let's continue to use the Soviet legacy.
    1. +6
      30 May 2023 08: 23
      Of course, there are not enough birds. This is one missile for one target, and one with manual guidance. And also keep the car in one place. And so he flew out, spotted a few, made a volley and left. I don't know why it still doesn't exist. After all, the same javelin can be copied.
      1. -3
        30 May 2023 15: 03
        So, even second-generation whirlwinds began to be made in commercial quantities only in 2015, and at 6 million apiece. They were made for all our helicopters, probably ten full salvos, and even then I'm not sure. And the third generation would have come out even more expensive, but there is no money.
      2. +4
        31 May 2023 00: 50
        For a javelin, an element base is needed, but it is not and will not be in such an economy)
      3. +4
        31 May 2023 04: 04
        Quote: Goto
        I don't know why it still doesn't exist.

        Scaling problem. Smaller than the X-25, it is impossible to make a "fire and forget" with an accessible element base, even the advertised "Hermes" turned out to be a hybrid of the "Cornet" and a booster from the MLRS for verification.

        Quote: Goto
        After all, the same javelin can be copied.

        It is forbidden. We need a production chain and an element base for each of several hundred parts.
        The Chinese, with all their research and production power and experience, copied Spike for 10 years to release their Red Arrow.
        1. -1
          2 June 2023 14: 29
          About how dishe they bow before the PRC. Are you aware that Javelin was not developed in the USA? And as before, there were enough combined warheads and "roof-breakers". It is interesting to know where the British Swingfire & Swedish combined Dragon missiles hit the armored vehicles? Let me guess, probably in the bottom of the place there is mechanical water.!
      4. -2
        31 May 2023 08: 50
        The helicopter does not stay in one place during launch. And the battlefield is not full of targets to shoot at them like a machine gun. Each goal has to be discovered scrupulously. 3rd generation ATGMs have a number of disadvantages compared to conventional 2nd generation ATGMs and are not a revolutionary game-changing innovation.
        1. +3
          31 May 2023 20: 16
          Quote: Roma-1977
          3rd generation ATGMs have a number of disadvantages compared to conventional 2nd generation ATGMs and are not a revolutionary game-changing innovation.

          Are. A 2nd generation rocket must be guided by hanging for tens of seconds like a target in a shooting range. And the launch of the 3rd takes a couple of seconds and you can hide. And some can even be launched out of line of sight.
          Armenia will not let you lie.


          Yes, and in ground complexes, the operator of the 2nd generation against a tank with a KAZ of the "Troffy" type is a suicide bomber. A lot of Hamas militants died just like that while they were firing a rocket, the KAZ radar managed to detect the launch site, the CICS to turn the tank turret, and the gunner to make a high-explosive fragmentation shot. As a result, the KAZ did not even work for its intended purpose, because the rocket was buried in the ground when the operator died.
    2. +14
      30 May 2023 09: 54
      By the way, for that matter, a helicopter is primarily an anti-tank weapon, not an anti-personnel one. The use of turntables against infantry, fortified positions, in terms of areas is from the hand-to-hand of commanders and the general course of the war, which turned into a mess without an operational and tactical plan, without understanding what to use where and when and for what. There is a barrel - let it shoot. Tanks are also used not as a means of breakthrough, but as self-propelled guns. Now throw out the tanks?
      1. +3
        30 May 2023 11: 46
        Quote: Evgeny Ivanov_5
        Tanks are also used not as a means of breakthrough, but as self-propelled guns. Now throw out the tanks?

        In all wars, the main means of a breakthrough was artillery - the "God of War". If the tanks go to the non-suppressed anti-tank system, then the success of the breakthrough is unlikely. In the modern realities of the saturation of defense with anti-tank weapons, tanks play an important role as assault support weapons that are part of assault groups. Their task is to suppress enemy firing points not suppressed by artillery. They go either directly in the combat formations of the advancing subunits, or somewhat behind. Throwing them forward, as previously prescribed, is simply suicidal.
  4. +17
    30 May 2023 04: 44
    An interesting article, except for the fact that it is based on a statement sucked out of your finger that helicopters do not use sunset, because MANPADS ... An interesting feature is that if you delve into, for example, videos laid out from SVO, then one video of the use of an aircraft accounts for almost fifty from helicopter pilots. The FB said in general - what to do if ALL the work in the NWO is being dragged by rotorcraft?
    Well, from the same category, the opus that helicopters were shot down twice in Vietnam ... And how many hours of flight do airplanes and helicopters have? Oops. Congratulations, citizen, as Koroviev used to say.
    The United States did not use helicopters in Yugoslavia? Is this a means of direct infantry support? Did Peota fight? Who was there to support? In addition, the author, having said a, forgot to say B - we have an attack helicopter working on targets on the ground, tanks are only one of the targets. and the Hawks were generally sharpened purely for tanks, which is why the first thing they did was screw the radar over the propeller, but we didn’t itch, by the way, because the Mi-24 with an airborne compartment, and Hawk - without, Hawk is a tank hunter, and Mi -24 - armored infantry vehicle, battlefield and close support, along with transport.
    In general, everything is gone, it's time to cancel the helicopters, yeah. Interestingly, the author decided that low-flying drones would not fall in clusters from electronic warfare countermeasures, because they fly low? And high-altitude drones with high-precision weapons - nifiga will not provide mass use, and how will the United States in Afghanistan have to abandon high-precision weapons in favor of old, "dumb" weapons?
    1. +3
      30 May 2023 05: 51
      Right now, the author's adherents will show you how to doubt the above statements. The earliest risers have already started minus.
      Feedback from the rotorcraft themselves? FB reporting? Working on fortifications from a cabriolet and using a working aiming program? What nonsense...
      In general, it is worth judging this or that type of weapon at the end of hostilities, having statistical data in hand.

      When
      1. -2
        30 May 2023 07: 50
        Who gets up at 3 in the morning and starts scribbling comments? Obviously pennies, they are always unhappy with everything
        1. +11
          30 May 2023 08: 20
          Quote: Vadim S
          Who gets up at 3 in the morning and starts scribbling comments? Obviously pennies, they are always unhappy with everything

          I'm a penny. I don't get up at three! And I don't comment. So in vain you roll for pennies! laughing
          And on the merits of the article, it seems to me that it is too early to write off helicopters from the database theater! We've been through different things. And we don't need aviation, we rivet rockets like sausages. (Khrushchev). But it turned out, without aviation anywhere! And quite recently, we don’t need PVs, but now it turns out that we really need PVs, but they don’t exist! And there are dozens of such examples, if not more!
          Basically, I always agree with Roman’s conclusions, but I don’t agree with the conclusions about helicopters!
          Losses? Yes loss! But not a single clash is complete without losses! And there are always losses in any branch of the military!
          1. +1
            30 May 2023 10: 04
            I can even list what, according to experts from VO, we do not need. Tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers, trucks, helicopters, aircraft, towed guns, floating equipment, air and sea landing equipment, large warships, Black Sea Fleet, DKBF, mine clearance systems. Maybe I forgot something else. Remembered! Officers are not needed. We need committees of sailors' and soldiers' deputies and elected commanders.
          2. +6
            30 May 2023 10: 14
            Losses? Yes loss! But not a single clash is complete without losses! And there are always losses in any branch of the military!

            That is the whole point.
            We are in the biggest military conflict since the Great Patriotic War. And it passes directly at our borders.

            Destroyed tanks, planes, helicopters, ships, 200s, 300s, 500s, etc. in large quantities - this is an inevitable and natural consequence.

            In the Second World War, without any ATGMs, UAVs, helicopters, mountains of tanks burned, including t-34s and tigers. The same song with airplanes, etc., just an indecent amount of ILs was lost. Without any MANPADS and BUKs.

            The question is moral readiness for losses, timely replenishment of equipment, weapons and personnel, and, ultimately, the expediency of all this. wink

            Hence the transition from positional tactics, hesitations and delays in offensives, getting out of the arsenals of everything that can move and shoot.
            1. -3
              31 May 2023 08: 54
              In fairness, most of the lost Ils are non-combat losses and write-offs due to wear and tear after intensive use.
              1. 0
                5 June 2023 20: 05
                Quote: Roma-1977
                In fairness, most of the lost Ils are non-combat losses and write-offs due to wear and tear after intensive use.

                In fairness, you would look at the statistics, how long the IL-2 lived in the conditions of Stalingrad and for how many sorties the GSS pilot was assigned.
        2. +12
          30 May 2023 10: 08
          Quote: Vadim S
          Who gets up at 3 in the morning and starts scribbling comments?

          Is there life in the Far East?
          1. +5
            30 May 2023 10: 26
            Who gets up at 3 in the morning and starts scribbling comments?

            Is there life in the Far East?

            laughing laughing laughing

            This retired midshipman of the Pacific Fleet is torturing Claudia BEFORE SLEEP!
            1. +3
              30 May 2023 12: 52
              Quote: Arzt
              This retired midshipman of the Pacific Fleet is torturing Claudia BEFORE SLEEP!

              Before dinner.
        3. +6
          30 May 2023 12: 37
          Quote: Vadim S
          Who gets up at 3 in the morning and starts scribbling comments? Obviously pennies, they are always unhappy with everything

          Is there no life beyond the Moscow Ring Road? Do you know the time difference between Kaliningrad and Sakhalin?
        4. +3
          30 May 2023 16: 01
          Have you heard about different time zones within our vast Motherland?
        5. GGV
          +1
          30 May 2023 22: 28
          Actually, we have a big country. In Moscow 3:00 and in Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky 12 days
        6. Aag
          -1
          31 May 2023 17: 11
          Quote: Vadim S
          Who gets up at 3 in the morning and starts scribbling comments? Obviously pennies, they are always unhappy with everything

          Well, maybe by retirement you'll find out that there are time zones.
      2. +1
        31 May 2023 11: 26
        In my opinion, if aviation does not work at least in the immediate rear of the enemy, then this is just a flying MLRS. But the latter is much cheaper.
    2. +4
      30 May 2023 10: 44
      Bingo, FB who is Fedor Bordarchuk? Be careful with VO abbreviations and dark people read.
      1. +2
        30 May 2023 16: 12
        Even the latest shpak knows the old man of the flight bomber)
    3. +1
      31 May 2023 04: 18
      Quote from Bingo
      the author decided that low-flying drones would not fall in clusters from electronic warfare

      Something not a single bunch in the last 500 days. Or electronic warfare "of the wrong system"? laughing
      Not embarrassed to repeat propaganda tales that have crashed into reality? wink
      1. +1
        31 May 2023 08: 56
        Here some Americans wrote that Ukraine is losing 10 drones of all types per month. Analysts also talk about the high level of losses of the same notorious Bayraktars.
        1. +1
          31 May 2023 20: 31
          Quote: Roma-1977
          Some Americans wrote here that Ukraine is losing 10 drones of all types per month

          This includes disposable (and homemade) kamikaze drones.

          Quote: Roma-1977
          talk about the high level of losses of the same notorious "Bayraktars"

          There were originally only a few dozen of them, this is an expensive toy. And the electronic warfare had nothing to do with it, their air defense was knocked down.
    4. 0
      31 May 2023 10: 23
      And high-altitude drones with high-precision weapons - nifiga will not provide mass use

      Why?
      If you robotize the production of UAVs, then these UAVs can be baked like hot cakes.
    5. -1
      1 June 2023 01: 24
      Quote from Bingo
      laid out from the NWO, then for one video of the use of the aircraft there are almost fifty from helicopter pilots


      Do not tell me how with the videos not of firing NURSs, but with the defeat of equipment? Planes at least now have planning bombs, and even if a bomb hits 500 kg inaccurately, it will do business.

      If "watch videos", then since the fall, NOT A SINGLE defeat of equipment with the Ka-52, and over the same period, the Lancet filled about 80 targets on video and most of them are more expensive than infantry fighting vehicles or loaves.

      Yes, and in the Loaves and Gazelles of Ukrainians for May, the leaders are the operators of our FPV drones. They stuffed 50 (!) units of light equipment right at the forefront. 2,5 times more Ukrainian FPV in May.

      Let me remind you of the complete failure of the Ka-52 when trying to contain the Kharkov offensive. Hand face. More than 100 attack helicopters were not filled and 5 pieces (!) Ukrainian armored vehicles. On the "videos" there were about 2 units, and more likely a Humvee, of which there are hundreds and this is a consumable.


      Helicopters do not work, we must think what to do with it, and not pretend that there is no problem.
  5. +14
    30 May 2023 04: 53
    Adapt, not remove completely! At a DB in each separate conflict - the features. And it’s not at all a fact that in the event of a hypothetical war with NATO, the database will have exactly the same scenario as in the NWO. Tanks, if anything, also do not play their original role in the NWO - combat vehicles to break through the enemy's defenses. Yes, the tank is capable of solving a large number of tasks, but they were created specifically for the attack. Actually, they were used in 1917 as a strike force.
    So I think it's too early to bury attack helicopters.
  6. +9
    30 May 2023 05: 08
    Well, here one can disagree with the author, the main problem of Russian attack helicopters is the lack of normal means of observation and search, as well as guidance of ATGMs over long distances over 5 kilometers. Russian helicopters have the same drawback, having the most powerful C 24 and C 13 in service, they have a limited firing range of up to 4000 meters, if these shortcomings are eliminated, that is, create NURS and URs with a firing range of over 10 kilometers, then attack helicopters will be able to defeat trenches and equipment of the enemy without entering the zone of destruction of MANPADS.
    1. +3
      30 May 2023 05: 48
      create NURS and URs with a firing range of over 10 kilometers, then attack helicopters will be able to inflict damage on enemy trenches and equipment without entering the MANPADS destruction zone.

      What for? MLRS do an excellent job with fire at such a distance, although it is also not particularly effective in trenches, but the weapon carrier does not cost a billion.
      It is difficult to replace an attack helicopter as a mobile means of destroying a mobile enemy, and not sitting in the trenches.
      The same example of an APU raid in the Belgorod region, the tanks drove back and no one was able to knock them out. If only there were light piston aircraft with low heat generation that negates the capture of the infrared head and high maneuverability against optical tracking, and not these hulking crocodiles flying like in slow motion. Airplanes that are more than two times smaller than helicopters and armed not with a salad of cannons, NARs and missiles with just a pair of ATGMs capable of taking off from an unpaved runway, then the tanks would have been destroyed. Yes, UAVs are good, but they are very slowly looking for a target, and in a situation like with DRGs, it is necessary to have very mobile and operationally used equipment with human control.
      1. +3
        30 May 2023 06: 05
        Quote: Konnick
        But why?

        The helicopter is much more mobile, and does not require roads to move,
        Quote: Konnick
        Now, if there were light piston aircraft with low heat generation, nullifying the capture of the infrared head and high maneuverability against optical

        As they said in a famous movie: "You make unrealistic plans ..." Low heat dissipation - power reduction, high maneuverability - high thrust-to-weight ratio and heat dissipation.
        In that situation, POSSIBLY, the Orion strike UAVs would show themselves well
        1. +2
          30 May 2023 06: 24
          The helicopter is much more mobile, and does not require roads to move,

          I wrote
          It is difficult to replace an attack helicopter as a mobile means of destroying a mobile enemy, and not sitting in the trenches.


          Low heat dissipation - power reduction, high maneuverability - high thrust-to-weight ratio and heat dissipation.

          Light weight, small dimensions, speed is higher than that of a helicopter. Power and weight are 10 times less, and the motor is piston and not gas turbine engine. This means that the heat dissipation is at least 10 times less. And the maneuverability of a light aircraft is better in any case, to reduce the size, you can use the biplane scheme. like this

          Like this, with a carrying capacity of 2-ATGM. It makes little sense to always have and carry a lot of weapons with you. The armament on the plane should be for a specific task, and not just in case and not be returned with full ammunition to the gun and with unused missiles.
          1. +3
            30 May 2023 09: 10
            Quote: Konnick
            Light weight, small dimensions, speed is higher than that of a helicopter. Power and weight are 10 times less, and the motor is piston and not gas turbine engine.

            This is a SPORT aircraft of extreme parameters, as soon as a load is placed on it, then all its indicators immediately sag and sag significantly, since they are created for other tasks.
            Quote: Konnick
            Power and weight are 10 times less, and the motor is piston and not gas turbine engine. This means that the heat dissipation is at least 10 times less.

            It would be interesting to try, but I think you are wrong. A piston engine must have a cooling system, liquid or air, but in any case VERY warm contrast
            1. +3
              30 May 2023 14: 26
              An engine is a device for converting the energy of combustion of fuel into motion. For a gasoline internal combustion engine, the efficiency is up to 30%, for a gas turbine engine up to 35%. That is, the heat dissipation will be almost equal if we consider the control unit of equal power.
              1. +1
                31 May 2023 06: 26
                The piston is always more economical than the gas turbine due to the cyclical action: the working volume allows a high combustion temperature of the working mixture, + contact cooling of the cylinder walls and rings.
                1. 0
                  31 May 2023 10: 19
                  Let me disagree. From replicated data: https://columb-ufa.ru/transport/toplivnaya-effektivnost-samoletov.html
                  The specific consumption of an aviation gasoline ICE is 0,27-0,3 kg / (hp h), for a diesel internal combustion engine 0,15-0,17 kg / (hp h), for a marine gas turbine engine 0,2 -0,26 kg / (hp h) (I did not find such a parameter for aviation gas turbine engines).
                  1. +1
                    1 June 2023 05: 53
                    Quote from shikin
                    (I did not find such a parameter for aviation gas turbine engines).

                    I have a problem too ...
                    Technical characteristics of TV3-117 engines:
                    Engine type: TV3-117V / TV3-117VMA
                    Power in emergency mode: 2200 hp / 2400 hp
                    Takeoff power: 2000 hp / 2200 hp
                    Specific fuel consumption: 0,220 kg/hp h / 0,215 kg/hp h
                    And this is with a large and powerful engine
                    But a less powerful, designed
                    VK-1600V is a promising engine developed by UEC-Klimov
                    Takeoff power -1400 hp, specific fuel consumption - 200 g / hp. per hour, delivery weight - 210 kg.
                    1. +1
                      2 June 2023 11: 13
                      Quote: svp67
                      Quote from shikin
                      (I did not find such a parameter for aviation gas turbine engines).

                      I have a problem too ...
                      Technical characteristics of TV3-117 engines:
                      Engine type: TV3-117V / TV3-117VMA
                      Power in emergency mode: 2200 hp / 2400 hp
                      Takeoff power: 2000 hp / 2200 hp
                      Specific fuel consumption: 0,220 kg/hp h / 0,215 kg/hp h
                      And this is with a large and powerful engine
                      But a less powerful, designed
                      VK-1600V is a promising engine developed by UEC-Klimov
                      Takeoff power -1400 hp, specific fuel consumption - 200 g / hp. per hour, delivery weight - 210 kg.


                      For gas turbine engines (probably also for internal combustion engines), the rule is: for engines of the same type, and the line is usually designed from PD-8 to PD-35, the rule is: the more powerful the engine, the more economical it is. This rule is not only for engines of the same type, but also for engines of the same generation in general. PS-90 is one generation, PD-14 is another, there is a difference in fuel consumption of 0.05 kg / kgf hour. Therefore, aircraft designers replace four-engine aircraft with twin-engine ones. PD-18 on PD-35 (in terms of both). So the greater PLANNED efficiency of an engine one and a half times smaller in power is associated with its more advanced, according to the designers, thermodynamics, and not with the fact that it is less powerful.
          2. 0
            30 May 2023 12: 30
            If my memory serves me right, then the United States during the Vietnam War specially created a piston aircraft. In theory, you can create a fast piston aircraft purely with birds to patrol the border and so on, but their crews will be like suicide bombers, if they rise above they will be shot down and not fly away from anyone.
            1. +2
              30 May 2023 16: 20
              Yeah. OV-10 Bronco seems to be. But there was more emphasis on low speed than low visibility from the IR spectrum. At the time of Nam, there was no such saturation of the MANPADS troops IMHO
        2. +1
          30 May 2023 09: 01
          In that situation, POSSIBLY, the Orion strike UAVs would show themselves well

          They ended like the Bayraktars of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, too large, they are destroyed by air defense systems.
          1. +1
            30 May 2023 09: 14
            Quote: Konnick
            They ended like the Bayraktars of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, too large, they are destroyed by air defense systems.

            Well, I won’t say anything about the “standard-bearer”, although periodically there are reports of similar targets, apparently the Ukrainians use it as a means of observation and reconnaissance, but the “Orions” are definitely still alive with us, although there are very few of them. But besides them, we also have "Outposts" and there are quite a few of these ...
      2. +6
        30 May 2023 07: 46
        I will support the idea. A very light aircraft with a pusher electric motor, a carbon fiber wing, a pair of ATGMs and a female pilot up to 45 kg...
        1. +2
          30 May 2023 09: 00
          I will support the idea. A very light aircraft with a pusher electric motor, a carbon fiber wing, a pair of ATGMs and a female pilot up to 45 kg...

          You can also old pensioners like here

          And this is at a height of up to 20 meters, i.e. inaccessible to the radar. With dimensions two times smaller and with an 300 hp engine. sample of 1957 with upgrades, which is 52 times less than that of the Ka-16, respectively, and the heat release is 16 times less at least. And with dimensions of 6 by 7 meters, 2,5 times smaller than the Ka-52. The speed is up to 450 km / h, one and a half times higher than that of the Ka-52.
          1. +3
            30 May 2023 09: 30
            Here is another pensioner hooligans on an airplane, is it possible in a helicopter, a helicopter is a transport
            1. +2
              30 May 2023 09: 55
              And by the way, we have such an aircraft - Yak-55M and Su-26


              It remains to test his MANPADS for catching and hang an ATGM.
          2. +4
            30 May 2023 10: 13
            Yeah, and the built-in warhead is 50 kilos. And most importantly, do not give the pilot a parachute. I've already seen this somewhere...
            1. 0
              30 May 2023 10: 43
              Yeah, and a 50 kilo built-in warhead.

              The Ataka ATGM has a weight of just 50 kg. Not funny.
      3. +7
        30 May 2023 08: 16
        So, "Super-Tukano" in Brazil is and is quite successfully used as an attack aircraft. But we, as always, have our own path watered with our own blood ...
        1. 0
          30 May 2023 11: 51
          "But we, as always, have our own way watered with our own blood..."
          Here you are wrong, comrade. the path is chosen by some, and others water it with their blood
      4. 0
        30 May 2023 10: 09
        We will revive the U-2 and we will be happy. Well, or I-16
      5. +4
        30 May 2023 12: 07
        Quote: Konnick
        If only there were light piston aircraft with low heat generation that negates the capture of the infrared head and high maneuverability against optical tracking, and not these hulking crocodiles flying like in slow motion.

        The main advantage of helicopters (I'm not talking about the clumsy "Crocodiles") over high-speed aircraft is their ability to fly at extremely low altitude under the cover of the terrain. And then jump out, like the devil out of a snuffbox, from behind the shelter, launch rockets and just as quickly go behind the shelter. But such a regime is possible only with good intelligence, modern means of communication and target designation for helicopters. The helicopters themselves should be armed with modern long-range missiles either with seeker (for armored vehicles), or with GLONASS guidance or with target illumination from other carriers (for stationary objects).
      6. +1
        30 May 2023 17: 12
        have you ever flown an airplane? Doesn't it bother you that not a single piston aircraft of any army in the world is provided for the use of ATGMs or missiles in general where the participation of a pilot is required?
  7. +5
    30 May 2023 05: 09
    Yes, it seems that all front-line manned equipment is a thing of the past. tanks, planes, helicopters - everything should be replaced with something cheap and mass-produced and remotely controlled. and in the foreseeable future, the infantryman will be replaced with something like products from boston dynamics with installed weapons. the final chord will be the transition from remote control to embedded artificial intelligence. total - a revolution in military affairs, before which even the invention of gunpowder is an insignificant detail. By the way, the head of the American General Staff has already spoken about this.
    1. +6
      30 May 2023 07: 05
      It's strange that they downvoted. This is the most likely scenario for the development of the armed forces of any more or less self-sufficient country. And God himself ordered Russia, with its vast territories and scanty population for such an area, to switch to uninhabited self-guided military equipment.
      The only thing that in Russia is unlikely to focus on animatronic and humanoid robots. Our path is caterpillar "Uranus" and unmanned BMPTs. "Fedor" is a blank for cutting, the sense of it is like a goat's milk.
    2. 0
      30 May 2023 07: 52
      I completely agree! Everything goes towards that.
  8. +5
    30 May 2023 05: 14
    At one time they abandoned the development of cannon artillery and lagged behind in order in both missiles and artillery. We must look for and find use for everything that can hurt the enemy.
  9. +2
    30 May 2023 05: 28
    This is the first war in which equal rivals came together with equal weapons, a developed air defense system and a large number of anti-tank weapons.
    At the same time, both sides do not have a clearly defined ultimate goal of this war. Therefore, there is a stupid exchange of artillery strikes in order to destroy enemy personnel. The tasks of Russian missile strikes on Ukrainian targets are completely incomprehensible. Is the transport infrastructure that allows the transfer of heavy Western weapons to the east to the front line destroyed? NO. Is the energy infrastructure that ensures the functioning of the military industry of Ukraine destroyed? NO. And such "NO" can be listed for a long time.
    Therefore, it makes no sense to talk about the usefulness / uselessness of only helicopters. The same can be said about tanks, cruise and operational-tactical missiles, and about aviation.
    When there is no real, achievable goal, the fulfillment of which will make it possible to say: "All tasks are completed, we won," you can fight or pretend that we are fighting, "to the point of carrots." Weapons have nothing to do with it.
    We need a clear political goal.
    1. -4
      30 May 2023 08: 07
      A little from the theory of systems, the theory of the state. Without knowledge of theory, we sculpt nonsense with beautiful sets of phrases that look like smart ones (based on knowledge).
      Everyone loves to talk about goals. However, goals are always in order. The goal is to secure Russia (all spheres) and its people, as well as large masses of Russian and allied nationalities on the territory of border states.
      We do not mix goals and means to achieve.
      We distinguish between goals and will in decision making.
      Ultimately, EVERYTHING comes down to WILL, realized on the basis of possibilities. Opportunities need constant increase (improvement). Etc.
      These are system concepts.
      1. 0
        30 May 2023 10: 25
        Quote: CleanKeys
        Everyone loves to talk about goals. However, goals are always in order. The goal is to secure Russia (all spheres) and its people, as well as large masses of Russian and allied nationalities on the territory of border states.

        What is included in territories of border states?
        LNR and DNR? Then the rest of the territory should be considered by us as an enemy - something like Palestine for Israel.
        All newly acquired territories? So there large masses of Russian and allied nationalities they don't want to see us at all. At best, they will tell us that Russia should restore everything, give money and not interfere. And at worst - if not for the Russians, they would live like in Europe.
        Actually, the "pro-Russian" nature of eastern and central Ukraine can be judged by the territorial composition of the ATO participants:

        And this is without taking into account the fact that the same Kharkov strengthened the power of the Armed Forces of Ukraine with shock work - at the same Malyshev plant, in unheated workshops with salary delays, workers repaired broken armored vehicles.
        1. +5
          30 May 2023 11: 46
          At best, they will tell us that Russia should restore everything, give money and not interfere.

          It strongly resembles the current situation in one small but very proud republic, formally part of the Russian Federation ...
          1. 0
            30 May 2023 17: 21
            Quote from Fenix844
            It strongly resembles the current situation in one small but very proud republic, formally part of the Russian Federation ...

            Or in one "fraternal country", which only a couple of months ago decided on its "vector". wink
            1. -2
              31 May 2023 09: 14
              Quote: Alexey RA
              Or in one "fraternal country", which only a couple of months ago decided on its "vector".

              Haven't heard of anyone making a decision. Central Asia, perhaps.
        2. -2
          30 May 2023 19: 02
          Quote: Alexey RA
          All newly acquired territories? So there large masses of Russian and allied nationalities are not at all eager to see us. At best, they will tell us that Russia should restore everything, give money and not interfere. And at worst - if not for the Russians, they would live like in Europe.

          These are former Russians. In my identification, I classify them as "k@tsaps".
          But this does not mean at all that they should not be brought to life. Just like the Germans in the 40s, who also did not wait for us with flowers.
          1. +1
            2 June 2023 12: 08
            Quote: Askold65
            Quote: Alexey RA
            All newly acquired territories? So there large masses of Russian and allied nationalities are not at all eager to see us. At best, they will tell us that Russia should restore everything, give money and not interfere. And at worst - if not for the Russians, they would live like in Europe.

            These are former Russians. In my identification, I classify them as "k@tsaps".
            But this does not mean at all that they should not be brought to life. Just like the Germans in the 40s, who also did not wait for us with flowers.

            Soviet troops brought the Germans to their senses after Germany attacked the USSR, destroyed tens of millions of its inhabitants and turned the city into ruins. And on the territory of Germany itself, mass extermination camps were discovered, where millions of Jews and millions of Soviet prisoners of war died. After that, we brought the people of Germany to their senses with the full support of the allies and, one might say, of the entire world community. So these are not Ukrainians, but you need to be brought to life. Moreover, our president was brought to his senses long ago, and his plans: the defense of Donbass and that's it. He is no longer going to reformat Ukraine. And the propaganda statements of Putin’s inner circle: to go to Lvov, or even Warsaw, or even Berlin, to launch nuclear strikes on Ukraine and almost on Washington, are not addressed to you, dear comrade, but to the West. Putin says to the West: look what terrible extremist radicals are around me, but I am soft and fluffy, ready to make concessions, you need to talk to me, negotiate with me. The fact that this propaganda excites turbo-patriots, giving them unnecessary hopes, is an unpleasant side effect for Putin, which, in his opinion, has to be put up with.
      2. +7
        30 May 2023 20: 57
        The main danger for the Russian Federation is the unsuitable kleptocratic leadership, the rest of the problems are from there. How can he have "order" with goals? Since 1992, in fact, it has done everything for that in one day everything collapsed. There are only disputes about the ratio of fools and enemies in it.
  10. +3
    30 May 2023 06: 05
    Is the author of the shock verticals in a hurry to bury, otherwise it can turn out like with tanks - it’s very inconvenient.
    1. +7
      30 May 2023 07: 09
      Is the author of the shock verticals in a hurry to bury, otherwise it can turn out like with tanks - it’s very inconvenient.

      Yes, it's the same song.
      bulleting by NURSs from a roll-up "somewhere in the direction of the enemy."

      Rolling out on the front line tank and not getting into the enemy dugout from 800 meters with 30 shots is in the order of things. At both sides.
      1. -3
        30 May 2023 07: 22
        Roll out on the front line tank and not get into the enemy dugout from 800 meters with 30 shots

        Have you seen how they smear at a tank biathlon from the same practically distance into a huge target? This is a smoothbore gun, although they have cool SLAs. Criticized T-55s are rifled with much better accuracy, especially at point-blank range.
        1. +11
          30 May 2023 07: 37
          Quote: Konnick
          This is a smoothbore gun, although they have cool SLAs. Criticized T-55s have rifled rifles with much better accuracy, especially at point-blank range

          Fox. Is this really a military review?

          - distance to the "huge target" (tank, target No. 12) along the UKS - 1.5-2 km. More often 1.5. But not 800 meters.
          - smoothbore gun at a distance of 1.5 - 2 km. nothing worse than a cut
          - so that the weapon shoots accurately - weapons must be serviced and shoot, at least occasionally
          - but to chat on topics in which you don’t understand a demon - ninada.

          1. -1
            30 May 2023 07: 57
            but to chat on topics in which you don’t understand a demon is ninada.

            Only modern self-propelled guns have a rifled barrel. And shooting OFS from a rifled one is more accurate. And even if armor-piercing, during the Persian Gulf War, the British Challenger 2 tank knocked out an Iraqi tank at a distance of 5100 m. ninado. And the main task of the tank in the NWO is "needed" by the OFS for the dugout or for the sniper. And for tanks and Sturm enough. Probably retired military.
            1. +2
              30 May 2023 08: 14
              Quote: Konnick
              Sighting range of a 100mm tank gun is more than a kilometer than 125mm smoothbore

              Quote: Repellent
              smooth-bore gun at a distance of 1.5 - 2 km. nothing worse than a cut

              And what about the "sighting range"?

              Quote: Konnick
              Have you seen how they smear at a tank biathlon from the same practically distance into a huge target? This is a smoothbore gun

              That's bullshit. Yes

              Quote: Konnick
              the main task of the tank in the NWO is "necessary" OFS for the dugout or for the sniper

              Well, how do you know what the task is there ... and, by the way - not to hit the second, edge with the third shot at the target - you need to have very crooked hands, or trash a shabby cannon, or to strongly interfere. He himself shot like that, with a mark on the gap, "it turns out great" (c).

              Quote: Konnick
              ninado connoisseur

              Horseman. tongue

              Quote: Konnick
              Probably a military pensioner

              And not a military man, and not yet a pensioner. But I once had a tank platoon. That was a long time ago.
              1. -4
                30 May 2023 08: 23
                That's bullshit

                No, not crazy. A rifled cannon projectile is less susceptible to side wind than a feathered smoothbore cannon projectile. Therefore, they put all sorts of calculators with weather sensors on the T-90, but the wind at a shot distance is rarely uniform and usually still changes direction. They got too carried away with anti-tanks and attack helicopters with weapons for all cases of hostilities, which made the equipment more complicated and heavier like German prodigies.
                1. +3
                  30 May 2023 08: 49
                  Quote: Konnick
                  A rifled cannon projectile is less susceptible to side wind than a feathered smoothbore cannon projectile. Therefore, they put all sorts of calculators with weather sensors on the T-90

                  Past. A ballistic calculator is about automating the calculation and input of corrections for a gun. The smoothbore gun has nothing to do with it, the BV was already installed on the T55M (the Volna control system, the second computer BV-62).

                  It's stupid, I guess. laughing

                  Quote: Konnick
                  the wind at a distance of a shot is rarely uniform and usually changes direction

                  Um. That is, you say that the wind is 2-4 km. from where you stand usually blowing in the opposite direction? Cool.

                  Quote: Konnick
                  No, not bullshit

                  Brad, Brad... Yes
                  1. 0
                    30 May 2023 11: 01
                    Um. That is, you say that the wind is 2-4 km. does it usually blow in the opposite direction from where you are standing? Cool.

                    Not in the return, but depending on the landscape, it especially depends on the cloud shadow, ascending streams under the cloud, descending in the sun, but you can’t understand between them. Ask glider pilots and pilots who look at the wind indicator cone during landing and takeoff, although they are given weather reports.
                  2. -1
                    31 May 2023 18: 14
                    Yeah. In aviation, there is such an unpleasant phenomenon as wind shear.
              2. -4
                30 May 2023 08: 52
                And what about the "sighting range"?

                As a former tanker, you have the choice to hit from a 100mm cannon at the maximum distance and demolish all the modern offal from the tank turret, kill the caterpillar and concuss the crew, or wait for the enemy tank to come closer to a kilometer for your shooting, or rather a stupid duel 50 to 50 out of 125mm smoothbore gun.
                1. +5
                  30 May 2023 11: 28
                  Quote: Konnick
                  As a former tanker, you have a choice

                  First of all, I have brains. Yes

                  Quote: Konnick
                  hit from a 100mm cannon at maximum distance ... or wait for an enemy tank to get closer to a kilometer for a stupid duel 50 to 50 from a 125mm smoothbore gun

                  Let me remind you that initially the conversation was about this:

                  Quote: Arzt
                  Will roll out on the tank forward and not hit an enemy dugout from 800 meters with 30 shots - in the order of things. At both sides

                  Quote: Konnick
                  Have you seen how they smear in tank biathlon from almost the same distance into a huge target? This is a smoothbore gun

                  The range to the biathlon target is 1.5 km. Plus or minus bast shoes. There was no talk of any "limiting distances" and there is no question.

                  The 125-mm tank gun is a wonderful weapon, I speak as a person who knows how to use it. No advantages over her 100-mm rifled (from T55) at such a distance has. And there is nothing to argue about.

                  You said stupidity, stop balking already. Useless. request
                  1. +3
                    30 May 2023 13: 44
                    Moreover, even for the BMP-1, the range of 800 m is standard for the UKS. Almost all of them hit, more than half for sure.
                  2. -1
                    31 May 2023 06: 39
                    Actually, Insect Killer Nikolai is right about the accuracy of the rifled barrel. Of course, 100 mm is a mockery today, but if you take the 120 mm Challenger cannon, then everything is just as he writes. Another thing is that the BOPS speed is higher for a smoothbore gun, but for a rifled gun it has a full-fledged HE. And since it is infantry tanks that are needed now, the rifled barrel with low ballistics, but high power of the HE projectile, in short, 152 mm, is most in demand. And against tanks, he should have a "fire-and-forget" (or "score") vertical-launched ATGM.
            2. 0
              31 May 2023 03: 14
              Quote: Konnick
              Only modern self-propelled guns have a rifled barrel. And shooting OFS from a rifled rifle is more accurate.

              Because a projectile with a belt is much cheaper than a feathered projectile. That's all.
      2. 0
        30 May 2023 10: 18
        You also remember naval artillery where to hit the target with one shell out of 100 is already good. By the way, the usual receiver also works.
  11. 0
    30 May 2023 06: 25
    I somehow watched a video, the helicopter pilot told me that while he was flying 17 times, the system worked that MANPADS were aimed at him, so in order to fly effectively, you need to fly en masse and not 1-2 helicopters
    If they pointed at you, you should automatically shoot from where they pointed it.
    We need an assessment of the situation, and support for aviation, not only infantry but also tanks. Then it will work. Helicopter pilots will work like in a dash
    The inefficiency is that we feel sorry for them, we do not hit the houses where they settled.
    Drones should circle over enemy territories, observation from space
    We have encountered all the weapons of NATO, no other country in the world has so many weapons.
    The question is different in which war people did not die? Any war is the death of people.
    Any military equipment becomes obsolete quickly, for example, in the 90s in the Russian army when I served, everything was old, nothing new and advanced
    1. 0
      30 May 2023 06: 41
      to fly effectively you need to fly en masse and not 1-2 helicopters

      I have already given such an example.
      When will there be less losses during the destruction of the warehouse? When should one bomber out of ten be sent to destroy a warehouse protected by a pair of anti-aircraft guns or send ten aircraft at the same time? When a section 5 km wide, 2 helicopters fly in an attack against 10 MANPADS or 20 at once. Moreover, half is focused on the destruction of MANPADS calculations.
      1. +1
        30 May 2023 07: 13
        I have already given such an example.
        When will there be less losses during the destruction of the warehouse? When should one bomber out of ten be sent to destroy a warehouse protected by a pair of anti-aircraft guns or send ten aircraft at the same time? When a section 5 km wide, 2 helicopters fly in an attack against 10 MANPADS or 20 at once. Moreover, half is focused on the destruction of MANPADS calculations.

        This is generally the MAIN thing that our generals should remember.
        In order to realize the need to concentrate forces on a narrow section of the front, with its further breakthrough and the formation of an encirclement in the Second World War, it took 2 years. And not everyone understood that, the Seelow Heights were stormed head-on. wink

        PS I wonder if they remember the basics of strategy on the other side? We'll find out soon...
        1. +2
          30 May 2023 08: 26
          The Seelow Heights were stormed head-on.

          And not knowing what is beyond the heights. Aviation reconnaissance was inactive due to fogs and low clouds, and the artillery preparation failed, echelons of shells were fired over the squares, as they are now hitting with NARs from a nose-up.
        2. +4
          30 May 2023 10: 38
          Quote: Arzt
          In order to realize the need to concentrate forces on a narrow section of the front, with its further breakthrough and the formation of an encirclement in the Second World War, it took 2 years. And not everyone understood that, the Seelow Heights were stormed head-on.

          Right. Do you remember why? In order to break through the defenses in a tank-accessible direction, introduce two tank armies into the gap, cut off the forces of two German armies from Berlin as quickly as possible, prevent their withdrawal into the city and surround them.
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Of the regular units defending at the approaches to Berlin, only the remnants of the 56th TC managed to retreat directly to the city. To the poor remnants: at the time of the start of battles in the city, there were only 13-15 thousand people in the corps. (from 50 thousand of initials on 16.04.1945/200/500). Moreover, this was the number after replenishment in Berlin - the corps retreated to the city in a much more depleted composition (two of its five divisions totaled XNUMX and XNUMX people).

          The assault on the Seelow Heights is the first stage of the encirclement operation, which ended with the Halb pocket and the ring around Berlin.
          1. +1
            30 May 2023 14: 50
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Right. Do you remember why? To break through the defenses in a tank-accessible direction, introduce two tank armies into the gap


            By the way, one should not forget something else there - Zeelov and Dresden are located at approximately the same distance from London, and the burning of Dresden and the assault on the heights are separated by only a little over a month. It would seem, take it and pour out bombs by aviation on the heights instead of the city, help the Soviet troops ...
            1. +2
              30 May 2023 17: 36
              Quote: ycuce234-san
              It would seem, take it and pour out bombs by aviation on the heights instead of the city, help the Soviet troops ...

              Nafig-nafig! In Operation Cobra, when the four-engined 8th VA decided to help their infantry, they put in a GI battalion, and to boot, the commander of the US Army Ground Forces.
              And these are the Yankees with their Nordens. The limes, who actually burned Dresden, generally loved to bomb the squares, trusting statistics to defeat the target.
              1. -2
                30 May 2023 20: 18
                Too bad they didn't put McNair in sooner. There was no worse enemy than American tanks.
                1. +2
                  31 May 2023 09: 18
                  Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
                  It's a pity McNair was put down not earlier

                  McNair had his pros and cons. Tanks in general were a mess, no one's child.

                  Here it’s more likely not McNair martinet, but Chaffee died at the wrong time.
                  1. -2
                    1 June 2023 23: 12
                    McNair was just not a martinet, unfortunately. The martinet would have stupidly demanded "the largest club in the largest number" (as the authors "about the fallen to Stalin"). And McNair, on the contrary, "according to science" did everything that is now fashionable among connoisseurs: logistics, division of roles, tanks do not fight tanks.
                    1. -1
                      2 June 2023 08: 21
                      Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
                      McNair was just not a martinet, unfortunately

                      In another thread, they discussed the American style of appointing lieutenant colonels to command fronts. So McNair was more of an ensign.

                      McNair's job was to bring meat to the front. He dealt with it pretty well. The rest is not for him.
                      Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
                      would have stupidly demanded "the largest club in the largest number" (as the authors of "about the fallen to Stalin")

                      Luckily, even McNair wasn't as dumb as Stalin's hitters. On the contrary, he facilitated the states as best he could - perhaps even with too much. The "unmanned division" of the staff of the 43rd year is almost 2 times smaller than the pre-war one. But with planes in the state.

                      And other people were engaged in tanks. Devers as administrator and Patton as lead tank practitioner. Questions for them. And my favorite is Eisenhower.

                      Little of. Criticism of McNair is mainly not related to tanks - he did not climb there. And with the decision instead of assault self-propelled guns or infantry tanks, or at least just tanks, to give self-propelled anti-tank guns to reinforce the infantry. Yes, this is a mistake - one could also take an interest in the activities of the Germans in this matter.
              2. 0
                30 May 2023 20: 42
                Quote: Alexey RA
                The limes, who actually burned Dresden, generally loved to bomb the squares, trusting statistics to defeat the target.


                Well, the Wotan Line, was located 15 - 20 km behind the front line. There, even from the stratosphere, it is difficult to confuse who is where. But they could - they could most epicly smash the rear and the last defensive lines there.
                1. The comment was deleted.
            2. +1
              31 May 2023 09: 23
              Quote: ycuce234-san
              It would seem, take it and pour out bombs by aviation on the heights instead of the city, help the Soviet troops ...

              Oh yes, bombing the Soviet troops and disrupting the Berlin operation is a completely feasible idea.

              Your idea of ​​interaction between Allied aviation and Soviet ground forces worked for some time in the Balkans. It led to the well-known incident under (or rather above) Nis. Moreover, the story is widespread, how the mustangs of the escort attacked Kozhedub, knocking down everything that flies. Most likely fiction, but adequately reflects the problem of interaction between the forces of different armies.
              Quote: ycuce234-san
              could most epicly smash the rear and the last defensive lines there

              What is the American interest?
    2. +1
      30 May 2023 07: 16
      All true for "yesterday". Old portable air defense systems ... But they have room to develop - to bring the probability of defeat to almost 100% with improved target selection - electronics is developing rapidly. Homing heads are now being produced using rather primitive development-time technologies ...
      But the protection of the helicopter seems to be close to the limit.
      If they pointed at you, you should automatically shoot from where they pointed it.

      that's good, but exchanging 2 expensive pilots and an expensive helicopter for 1 ... 2 pointers plus 1 missile ... so-so at best ...
      Moreover, the pickup through the optical / thermal channel is not detected ...
      1. +1
        30 May 2023 10: 06
        Moreover, the pickup through the optical / thermal channel is not detected ...

        The "shield-sword" confrontation is endless.

        Absolute weapons do not exist even in science fiction. laughing there is, of course, but it is a double-edged sword ...
    3. -1
      30 May 2023 10: 19
      the helicopter pilot said that while he was flying, the system worked 17 times that he was being targeted by MANPADS

      This pilot is a noble star. Well, or he has such a wonderful device that determines that someone looked at him in a lorgnette.
      1. +1
        30 May 2023 23: 44
        Quote from solar
        This pilot is a noble star. Well, or he has such a wonderful device that determines that someone looked at him in a lorgnette.
        The British have a miserable MANPADS, which is aimed not at heat, but along a laser path. Maybe they reacted to it. And that 17 times - nothing surprising: the operator's hand trembles, the beam goes out, then comes back, etc.
  12. +7
    30 May 2023 06: 26
    Tanks also repeatedly tried to "write off" from the battlefield due to "lack of chances to survive", nevertheless, the tank remains in service. Su-25 attack aircraft have also long been considered obsolete, but in terms of cost-effectiveness, as well as reliability, they are still indispensable and prove it in the SVO. The helicopter is a universal platform. It is strange why the author was carried away by the thought of decommissioning the platform, instead of thinking about increasing its effectiveness by developing new weapons for it. In any case, an unmanned helicopter will be much more expensive and less reliable, but at the same time it is still subject to the same risks of meeting with MANPADS, MZA, etc. I repeat - a helicopter is a universal platform and during assault operations on an LBS saturated with air defense, it is really not effective right now, because. the enemy in a static defense has the ability to set up radar or observation posts, organize air defense ambushes. But there are other ways to use helicopters - free hunting (knocking out armored vehicles with ATGMs from a long distance), attacking an attacking or breaking through enemy (when he can go in columns or groups and he does not have the opportunity to organize high-quality air defense cover). Here, helicopters are effective, and sometimes even indispensable, even with existing weapons. For example, it will not be Su-24s or Su-34s with UMPC bombs that work along coordinates and cannot be used along columns, but Su-25 helicopters and attack aircraft that fly slowly and can work on a visually observed enemy.
    1. +1
      30 May 2023 08: 29
      For example, to stop a major breakthrough during the counteroffensive of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, if it happens, it will not be the Su-24 or Su-34 with bombs from the UMPC, which work along the coordinates and cannot be used along the columns, but the Su-25 helicopters and attack aircraft, which fly slowly and can work on a visually observed enemy.


      And they will be shot down by the same MANPADS and MZO, which will cover the columns.

      free hunting (knocking out armored vehicles with ATGMs from a long distance)

      That's why they came up with shock UAVs that cannot be caught in the sight of the Stinger or the Arrow with the Needle.
      1. 0
        31 May 2023 08: 31
        That's why they came up with shock UAVs that cannot be caught in the sight of the Stinger or the Arrow with the Needle.
        Why did you decide not to? If you are talking about the Mavic-3 with VOG-25, then it’s probably impossible, but if it’s about something more significant, then how else can you do it. The same eagles shoot down from MANPADS.
    2. +4
      30 May 2023 10: 46
      Quote: Slon1978
      For example, to stop a major breakthrough during the counteroffensive of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, if it happens, it will not be the Su-24 or Su-34 with bombs from the UMPC, which work along the coordinates and cannot be used along the columns, but the Su-25 helicopters and attack aircraft, which fly slowly and can work on a visually observed enemy.

      Gorgeous. Attack with aircraft with an effective range of 1-1,5 km of an air defense column operating at least 4-5 km. The experience of Afghanistan and 08.08.08 did not teach anything?
      Visual observation of the enemy means that the enemy is also visually observing you. And the LTC and the "dry cargo carrier" are useless against the same "starstrike".
      1. 0
        31 May 2023 08: 41
        The attacking side, as a rule, has many problems and headaches: the defending side is working on it, but if there is no direct battle at the moment, then artillery can work on you, when the column moves, there is a problem of mining (both anti-tank and anti-personnel mines - according to running around roadsides and fields with MANPADS can be unhealthy), the attacker is also concerned about ambushes on his way, so as not to be left without communication, not to be cut off, not to drive in the wrong direction, etc. A lot of problems and headaches, believe me. The situation does not look like that the advancing enemy stands in silence, turns his head and listens to see if a plane is flying at him. Therefore, there is military air defense - mechanized systems such as Tor or Tunguska, which move in advancing columns and cover them. Why was it necessary to invent them if there are MANPADS? The attacker is always able to solve a bunch of problems at the same time, and when a Su-25 link suddenly comes out from behind a hill and direct fire with NURS destroys half of the column with the very first salvo (believe me, by the way, when firing direct fire, NURS are a very accurate weapon, an experienced operator will easily cover even a single target), then even if the MANPADS operator has not died yet, he is unlikely to have time to cool his head, turn around, aim and fire a volley from his MANPADS. But with military air defense, the Armed Forces of Ukraine have just problems, they expect to move air defense from behind, in the near rear (as artillery battalions usually move behind advancing orders). But they may not have time to cover them.
        1. +2
          31 May 2023 12: 23
          Quote: Slon1978
          Therefore, there is military air defense - mechanized systems such as Tor or Tunguska, which move in advancing columns and cover them. Why was it necessary to invent them if there are MANPADS?

          For air defense of columns and advancing troops in the event that the enemy has ATGM carriers.
          But the Su-25 has no ATGM - it has bare cast iron or URO, which works normally only in conjunction with ground-based aircraft controllers. So even MANPADS are dangerous for him with a BSHU in a column, not to mention other military air defense systems.
          Quote: Slon1978
          The attacker is always able to solve a bunch of problems at the same time, and when a Su-25 unit suddenly comes out from behind a hill and direct fire with NURS destroys half of the column with the very first salvo (believe me, by the way, when firing direct fire, NURS are a very accurate weapon, an experienced operator will easily cover even a single target), then even if the MANPADS operator has not died yet, he is unlikely to have time to cool his head, turn around, aim and fire a volley from his MANPADS.

          The situation you described means only one thing - the air defense system collapsed and the calculations / divisions went offline.
          In a normal situation, the Su-25 going to the convoy is shown on the tablets long before reaching the range of the weapon, and target designation is issued on it. Moreover, when escorted by an air defense column, it does not just go in one formation, but must move in rolls, choosing positions with the best working conditions. So, with a normal organization of the march, at least MANPADS crews with guards should be on the hill.
    3. -3
      30 May 2023 16: 15
      stop a major breakthrough during the counteroffensive of the Armed Forces of Ukraine

      for such purposes, RSSO with an increased range would be suitable, most of the successful breakthroughs of the APU are due to the lack of communications, poor-quality and inefficient management, and backward reconnaissance equipment ...
      ps during the breakthrough of saboteurs in b.o. there was a video of how "dryers" tried to work on them, dropping something somewhere, as I understood, the efficiency was low ...
  13. The comment was deleted.
    1. -3
      30 May 2023 12: 10
      "As soon as the USSR began to supply Vietnam with MANPADS, the entire strategy for using helicopter landings went wrong and the amers quickly ran away."
      and what kind of MANPADS did the USSR have during the Vietnam War? and in Afghanistan it was the Amer stingers that were delivered to our flyers. learn materiel laughing
      1. +1
        30 May 2023 13: 19
        For you, what is not in Hollywood is not in life? :)
        Here are just the official US losses in 1971 from MANPADS. Unofficial above (Strela-2)

        1 May – Forward guidance aircraft O-2 shot down in Quang Tri area, pilot bailed out.
        May 1 - An A-1 ground attack aircraft is hit by a missile in the Quang Tri area while participating in a search and rescue operation. The pilot made it to the Gulf of Tonkin in a wrecked car and ejected.
        May 2 – Two A-1 attack aircraft are shot down in Quang Tri province while participating in a search and rescue operation. Both pilots ejected.
        May 2 - A UH-1 transport helicopter is shot down while participating in a search and rescue operation in Quang Tri Province. 5 people died.
        11 May – AH-1 attack helicopter shot down near Anlok, crew killed.
        May 11 – Two forward targeting O-2 aircraft are shot down near Unlok. It is possible that they were victims of MANPADS, although this has not been definitely established.
        14 May – Forward guidance aircraft O-1 shot down near Unlok, pilot bailed out.
        May 22 - An F-4 fighter-bomber is shot down by anti-aircraft fire or a MANPADS missile after attacking a ground target in Quang Tri province. The crew ejected.
        24 May – A UH-1 transport helicopter is shot down in Hue area. 4 people died.
        24 May – AH-1 attack helicopter shot down near Anlok, crew killed.
        May 25 - An OV-10 forward guidance aircraft is shot down in the Hue region, the crew ejected.
        May 26 - TA-4 attack aircraft hit by a missile in the Hue region and fell into the Gulf of Tonkin on approach to the Danang airfield, the crew ejected.
        June 11 - An OH-6 surveillance helicopter is shot down by an unknown missile in Thua Thien Province. It has not been established for certain what exactly he was struck by. The crew died.
        June 18 - An AC-130 fire support aircraft is shot down in the Aschau Valley area, three of the 15 crew members survived.
        June 20 - AH-1 attack helicopter shot down near Unlok, crew killed.
        June 21 - AH-1 attack helicopter shot down near Unlok, crew survives.
        June 29 - An OV-10 forward-guided aircraft is hit by a missile in the Quang Tri area and makes an emergency landing on the water in the Gulf of Tonkin. The pilot died (posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor), the observer survived.
        July 2 - An O-1 forward guidance aircraft is shot down over Cambodian territory near the border with Vietnam. The pilot apparently survived.
        July 5 - An A-37 attack aircraft was shot down in the Hue region, the pilot ejected.
        July 11 - A CH-53 transport helicopter is hit by a missile during an amphibious landing in the Quang Tri area, crash-lands and burns out. There were 6 Americans and 50 South Vietnamese soldiers on board, 3 Americans and 7 Vietnamese survived.
        October 31 - A CH-47 transport helicopter is shot down in Dinh Tuong Province. 15 people died (according to the list of names; in the sources there are figures up to 22 dead).
        November 23 – O-2 forward guidance aircraft shot down near Unlok, pilot escaped.
        December 3 - AH-1 attack helicopter, crew survived.
        December 19 - An OV-10 forward guidance aircraft is hit by a missile in the Quang Tri area, the pilot tried to reach the Gulf of Tonkin. The crew ejected, one pilot survived, the other died.
        January 8 - A UH-1 transport helicopter is shot down by two missiles in the Quang Tri area. 6 people died.
        January 27 - An OV-10 forward guidance aircraft is shot down in the Dong Ha area while participating in a search and rescue operation. The crew ejected and was shot by North Vietnamese soldiers in the air or already on the ground.

        Officially, ~580 launches were made, ~210 aircraft and helicopters were destroyed. That is, the efficiency is 36%, which is higher than the declared 30%.
      2. +1
        30 May 2023 21: 05
        They write about 5080 Strela-2 (I think we are talking about the number of missiles) delivered to Vietnam since 1971\72 ..
    2. -1
      30 May 2023 20: 25
      Quote: Setavr
      Then, according to the logic of the author of the Russian Ministry of Defense, the pzdt is not only about destroyed foreign helicopters, but also about other foreign equipment: aircraft, self-propelled guns, air defense, tanks, mraps, infantry fighting vehicles, and so on and so forth. After all, this was not in Ukraine until 2022!

      And who is to blame that the RF Ministry of Defense has a boneless tongue.
  14. +1
    30 May 2023 06: 30
    Roman, also already tried to "bury" the tanks, but it was this war that showed the fallacy of such a decision. We need new methods and solutions in protecting helicopters from missiles in the first place, we need systems that suppress the missile guidance head on a helicopter, we need a kind of dynamic protection for helicopters. They, helicopters, will be needed in the army for a long time if they are used correctly, so even a mass of drones in the foreseeable future will not replace a strike helicopter, let alone a transport helicopter.
    1. -1
      30 May 2023 08: 39
      We need new methods and solutions in protecting helicopters from missiles in the first place, we need systems that suppress the missile guidance head on a helicopter, we need a kind of dynamic protection for helicopters.

      To make flying crocodiles even heavier ... It's like with the Il-2 attack aircraft, one of the myths of the Great Patriotic War. They made them heavier with armor so that they became easy prey for fighters, and bulletproof armor did not save them from the main 20mm anti-aircraft guns. While the light, percale I-153 "Chaika" fighter-bombers did not require cover and had much better survival during sorties, including due to air-cooled engines, in contrast to the Il-2 engines with water, where it was one bullet hit in the radiator is enough. Chaika's maneuverability with her turning radius in a defensive battle did not allow her to attack them with Messerschmites. No wonder Air Marshal Khudyakov and Bulganin asked to resume the production of I-16 and I-153. The I-16 could dive vertically with a 250 kg bomb, and Chaika could very accurately hit tanks with eight RSs on suspensions. Twice Hero of the Soviet Union on Chaika, in the first month of the war shot down a Messerschmit with rockets after an attack.
      1. +2
        30 May 2023 12: 50
        Twice Hero of the Soviet Union on Chaika, in the first month of the war shot down a Messerschmit with rockets after an attack.

        Missed - twice Hero of the Soviet Union Rechkalov Grigory Andreevich. He also destroyed the tank on the very first sortie with RSs, which the pilots on the IL-2 called psychological weapons, since it was impossible to fire them accurately on an attack aircraft, and the Chaika fighter-bomber was equipped with a sight for the RS.
  15. The comment was deleted.
  16. -2
    30 May 2023 06: 43
    the problem is that military helicopters were created by brilliant people, military strategists who "sniffed" gunpowder for decades worked out tasks for helicopters in combat zones, constantly learning to overcome the vulnerability of military helicopters and increase their striking power, and a certain author undertook to throw military helicopters into "scrap" such an article. Moreover, he does not even know the number of helicopters lost by the Russian army in Ukraine during the NWO. And I don't know. And if he doesn’t know, then maybe the Russian army, in that case, didn’t lose a single combat helicopter there. Or lost only one or two. And therefore, until you have specific numbers of your own losses, there is nothing to put yourself in the ranks of developing a strategy for modern front-line aviation.
    Military experts and strategists divorced like singers on the stage in the 90s. And not to know the numbers of losses of one’s own weapons, but to argue that these weapons should be abandoned, so reading this is the same as listening to a singer opening his mouth to the soundtrack.
    1. -3
      30 May 2023 20: 28
      Quote: north 2
      And not to know the numbers of losses of their own weapons

      It's one thing not to know, and another thing not to be legally able to name it.
  17. -2
    30 May 2023 06: 50
    As I remember, helicopters should cover any armored group, the helicopter moves at the speed of armored personnel carriers
    From MANPADS, different means of protection are needed, and development must be carried out without stopping.
    The main mistakes of the NWO are not blown up bridges across the Dnieper and one of the reasons for the dam.
    The most important thing is to deprive the enemy of the supply of weapons, or hit on communications, or surround the group, within a month it will be blown away. Breakthroughs are needed here, apparently Ukraine is preparing them.
    How much aviation is needed, i.e. helicopters need sortie statistics, how many targets hit
    The enemy is now scattered, he has no accumulation of funds, a breakthrough of the front is possible only with the support of well-armored vehicles today
    Why did everything go wrong, but because we don’t have normal infantry fighting vehicles, everything that is sewn in the army with heavy machine guns like cardboard. Because the main priority in the development of MO is to float, and not something that helps to move forward. If we have a class of funds for the airborne forces, then we have nothing for motorized rifle units of the MBP 1,2,3, they are obsolete like the BTR-82
    As in 1941, we make mistakes, because then there was also a lot of cardboard equipment in the form of BT-26, then no one thought about the infantry.
    What do we want from helicopters if the infantry is sitting in the trenches and is afraid to get out.
    We need to work on the mistakes and refine the technique in the conditions of our own.
    When the enemy attacks, helicopters, if they take off in time, will be a good means of destruction, thanks to this, only the forces do not attack en masse
    Helicopters are needed as cover, they need to be taken out
  18. +1
    30 May 2023 07: 00
    Most wars since 1945 have been fought by leading nations against opponents of disparate strength. Under this formed strategy, tactics and technology. Naturally, all this in the new conditions requires a serious revision. Both here and in the West.
  19. +5
    30 May 2023 07: 05
    Ukraine has received and continues to receive helicopters on a regular basis, starting with Afghan helicopters transferred by the United States, and there are several dozen. In Europe, too, scratched. They even returned their sides from Africa. Not to mention the fact that all the machines from storage that they can lift into the air. And they shoot down their turntables in batches, only from this they do not stop fighting on them.
  20. +1
    30 May 2023 07: 30
    Their colleagues (especially anti-submarine ones) can feel calm, because so far no real replacement is foreseen for them.


    At sea, an unmanned helicopter can expand the search area for submarines and get by with a smaller number of them, combined with manned ones. I doubt that the pilots of a conventional helicopter will withstand continuous flight over the sea, for example, 18 hours in a row.
  21. +2
    30 May 2023 07: 43
    If an attack helicopter is obsolete, there is a real incentive to quickly decommission it and move on to something else - perhaps armed drones. Exactly the same that both sides use today in the NWO. At the very least, the UAV is capable of hitting a target from a tank to a car without putting the operator's life at risk. This is a given today.


    A bunch of controversial theses: from the obsolescence of a helicopter to the safety of UAV operators, who are now spotted at once and covered with artillery ...

    And modern UAVs are not a replacement for a helicopter, but only an addition to it, because they are not so versatile and carry many times less load.
  22. 0
    30 May 2023 08: 25
    Well, there was also a lot of talk about the tank. which is outdated. And try to fight without it. Roll-up missile launches? So from the fact that there is no long-range missile. It can still be carried out, taking into account the experience of the SVO, both in the use of helicopters in positional warfare and in the development of new types of weapons, and not write off. And I think the helicopter will always have its own niche, taking into account its characteristics.
    1. 0
      30 May 2023 09: 07
      For each type of weapon in modern warfare, you need to invent, invent new ways to use them almost every day. Helicopters are not to blame that people do not know how to use them.
      For example, you can throw smoke tear bombs, smoke screens on the enemy’s territory, and then iron the enemy’s positions, according to GLONASS according to previously reconnoitered data.
      The combat charter is not a dogma, but a guide for taking the initiative. soldier
  23. 0
    30 May 2023 08: 48
    Yes, there you can already talk about the cemetery of aircraft. Given their cost and long production cycle. Nobody wants to lose them in batches, and modern air defense systems are capable of clearing the sky with high quality.
  24. +1
    30 May 2023 09: 11
    The author decided to go on a wave of euphoria from drones, as a new prodigy, supposedly capable of replacing any strike weapon. By the way, a couple of years ago, local experts wrote that a drone is nonsense because one Su-25 is much more effective than a hundred drones. And in general, if you follow the ideas of local "analysts", then it's time to urgently remove tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers, helicopters, aircraft from the battlefield and replace them with something. Armored vehicles with super tanks, super infantry fighting vehicles, MCIs, and all aviation with drones. Only drones also shoot down, jam and so on. And in general, only combined arms combat can show the effectiveness of weapons in exactly the form it should be. What we have at the front now is the bullshit on both sides and the handshake of the command, posed as the new realities of modern war
  25. 0
    30 May 2023 09: 21
    It is strange that neither the author nor in the comments I saw the use of the idea of ​​​​active protection such as a trophy. Helicopter flying tank. A tank on the battlefield is just as not sweet from ATGMs as a helicopter from MANPADS. Active protection systems in the form of a counter-projectile can be used quite well.
  26. 0
    30 May 2023 09: 33
    The article is pretentious and very few specifics. Ukraine does not ask the West for helicopters because there is no one to fly them. If there were pilots, the allies would have "filled up" Banderlog with this rubbish. There are MANPADS, there are also means of dealing with them. Not all helicopters were equipped with them. Or you can not enter the coverage area of ​​MANPADS or BD air defense systems at all, you need to equip the turntables with high-precision missiles with a combat range of 12-15 km.
    1. +1
      30 May 2023 12: 59
      Or you can not enter the coverage area of ​​MANPADS or BD air defense systems at all, you need to equip the turntables with high-precision missiles with a combat range of 12-15 km.

      And to equip cheap Mi-8s, and not one and a half billion turntables with armor.
    2. 0
      30 May 2023 21: 15
      1. In order to arm helicopters with a range of under 15 km (and this still needs to be mastered en masse), you need to have the same helicopters with something capable of detecting targets and aiming missiles at them from 20 km. Apparently the military-industrial complex is simply not ready for such a feat.
      2. Air defense also has medium-range air defense systems.
      3. Relief. If there was a flat surface, it would probably be different, but the European theater of operations does not give your favorite 15 km, but on average about 5, that is, very often helicopters will be fired at unexpectedly and at point-blank range, whether they like it or not.
  27. +2
    30 May 2023 09: 33
    Quote from Alexwar
    I once watched a video, the helicopter pilot told me that while he was flying 17 times, the system worked that MANPADS were aimed at him

    Is this system responsive?
    How did the FIM-92 Stinger irradiate the warning system?
    1. 0
      30 May 2023 10: 49
      Quote: Zufei
      How did the FIM-92 Stinger irradiate the warning system?

      Maybe there were Starstreak HVMs.
    2. -1
      31 May 2023 08: 42
      Quote: Zufei
      How did the FIM-92 Stinger irradiate the warning system?

      Theoretically, there may be an optical system that visually sees the rocket. True, this is on a penguin, I have not heard this about Soviet helicopters.
    3. 0
      4 June 2023 23: 50
      No. the system responds to rocket exhaust in the UV range.
  28. 0
    30 May 2023 09: 34
    It is high time to end with rotten rhetoric in style - birds appeared, tanks became obsolete, air defense systems appeared - planes became obsolete, man-portable air defense systems appeared - helicopters became obsolete. This was a hundred years ago - torpedoes appeared, large ships became outdated, machine guns appeared - the infantry was outdated ... The question is not in the types of weapons, but in the correct application. If ours cannot engage in a maneuverable war, the means of which is a helicopter, this does not mean that the helicopter is outdated. In WWI-style positional warfare, an attack helicopter is actually slightly useless, but this does not say anything about the demand for the type of weapon itself.
  29. +1
    30 May 2023 09: 41
    The result was the AH-1 Cobra helicopter, which carried a 20mm cannon and 70mm rockets. After the war, the Army adapted the Cobra for an anti-tank role, equipping it with ATGMs. In the event of World War III and the Soviet invasion of Europe, Cobra helicopters armed with TOW anti-tank missiles could quickly turn around to meet and slow down the tank hordes of the Soviet army.
    Yet despite their clear advantages, there was the nagging question of how vulnerable they were to a modern, well-equipped enemy like the USSR. For a very long time this question remained open, especially after 1991, when the USSR was gone, and helicopters remained

    1. Cobras wore TOU already in Vietnam and used them successfully.
    2. No "painful question" has arisen in NATO.
    The main problem for the Cobras was Shilka and OSA. And - surprise - the range of the Shilka was less than the TOU (those who wish to look for instructions for the pilots of Cobras during the Cold War on their own).
    The "torturous question" - "what to do and who is to blame" arose in one great country, as a result of the use of helicopters with ATGMs, especially against the Arabs. I also came across a story that in the 70-80s, according to the results of the exercises and modeling "helicopter with ATGM against tanks", the idea appeared that "100 tanks with adequate air defense are better than 1000 without air defense." As a result, an active replacement of Shilka with something more long-range began, Tunguska turned out.
    IMHO: it should be noted that the possibility of modernizing Shilok with the "long arm of MANPADS" was missed (well, the SLA, as, for example, the Poles did), the Tunguska is still quite rare. But there are no complaints about Shilka either - when the choice was made not in favor of the Yenisei (although the firing range is 4,5 km versus 2,5 km.), But in favor of Shilka, the efficiency of action at close range was considered more important, and at long range they should have "work" air defense systems.

    Military operations in Ukraine clearly showed the shortcomings of an attack helicopter in modern warfare, in conditions of saturation of the front line with air defense systems, MANPADS and MZA.
    IMHO, military operations have shown that a cannon and NARs are not the best weapon for a helicopter in conditions of unsuppressed air defense (what happens when air defense "suddenly wakes up" - watch "Gostomel"). The best are long-range missiles, and effective OLS and radars.
    A bit of "ATGM" from Ka52 AKA "the best job in the world":

    https://youtu.be/F14BOiAd1rM

    Of course, the longer-range weapons, the better (Hermes, Brimstone), but it’s too early to write off guns with NARs. A helicopter that is capable of not only "delivering blows", but also "holding blows", (especially if it has ejection seats good , as on Ka52) will be an effective weapon for a long time.

    Here it is also necessary to write about the fact that the effectiveness of helicopters depends to a large extent on PANs, but, IMHO, this is of no interest to anyone.

    A little epic video from the British Apaches (for more details - "Apache" and "Hellfire"):

    https://youtu.be/QSEX-c2W2yc
    In general, if you bind wassat attack helicopter wassat , you can do a lot of interesting things soldier !
    1. 0
      30 May 2023 11: 02
      Quote: Wildcat
      As a result, an active replacement of Shilka with something more long-range began, Tunguska turned out.
      IMHO: it should be noted that the possibility of modernizing Shilok with the "long arm of MANPADS" was missed (well, the SLA, as, for example, the Poles did), the Tunguska is still quite rare.

      So modernization could more or less help only from TOU carriers. The problem is that already in the 80s, a potential enemy had Hellfires with a launch range greater than the range of MANPADS. And only ZRPKs with more powerful missiles than those of MANPADS could fight them.

      MANPADS are good when they are portable - then they cannot be seen or heard until the moment of launch, so that the air target does not know about it and can approach the launch range in full confidence that there is no one here. And when MANPADS are put on the chassis and even more so included in the column, then such an air defense system loses the only advantage of invisibility and turns into an easily detectable target that can be hit before entering the radius of its operation.
      1. +2
        30 May 2023 13: 45
        I absolutely agree that Tunguska is better than Shilka.

        IMHO, if it were possible to replace Shilok with Tunguska "1 to 1", then, probably, even writing off Shilok would be reasonable. But such a replacement has not yet happened, and as it turns out, a lot of air defense is needed.
        The lack of modernization of Shilok, IMHO, is a mistake.
        But when the modernization of Shiloks was discussed at VO, the opinion was expressed that the "youngest" Shiloks born in 1982. and over 30-40 years of operation they have developed a resource, it is easier to build new ZSU. So the idea of ​​​​modernizing Shilok and "mid-life-upgrade" would have made sense in the 90s or 00s. And now the modernized Shilka with MANPADS would not hurt for sure.

        when MANPADS are placed on the chassis and even more so included in the column, then such an air defense system loses the only advantage of invisibility and turns into an easily detectable target
        when MANPADS are placed on a chassis, they usually achieve greater efficiency due to the working conditions of the calculation, mobility and information exchange. However, no one forbids having MANPADS in a wearable version.
        1. +2
          30 May 2023 17: 46
          Quote: Wildcat
          So the idea of ​​​​modernizing Shilok and "mid-life-upgrade" would have made sense in the 90s or 00s.

          Technically yes. But then they had no one to fight with, and when it became with someone, they were already physically outdated.
          Quote: Wildcat
          when MANPADS are placed on a chassis, they usually achieve greater efficiency due to the working conditions of the calculation, mobility and information exchange.

          It’s easier to give the calculation of MANPADS wheels and a regular tablet. smile
          A specialized air defense system on a chassis must have a range equal to or greater than that of a mass aviation ATGM. For it is very difficult for him to disguise himself (unlike a foot or portable MANPADS crew), and his only defense is to shoot down the carrier before launch.
        2. +2
          31 May 2023 14: 24
          Quote: Wildcat
          I absolutely agree that Tunguska is better than Shilka.

          In theory ... "Tunguska" in the original version is far from ideal. For example, for firing missiles, it is necessary to accompany the target visually, which is impossible in conditions of poor visibility and at night. The reliability of a very complex hardware complex is very low. Well, a lot of other nuances unknown to the general public.
          Quote: Wildcat
          at VO, the modernization of Shilok was discussed, the opinion was expressed that the "youngest" Shilki born in 1982. and over 30-40 years of operation they have developed a resource, it is easier to build new ZSU. So the idea of ​​​​modernizing Shilok and "mid-life-upgrade" would have made sense in the 90s or 00s.

          And there is... Yes
          Quote: Wildcat
          And now the modernized Shilka with MANPADS would not hurt for sure.

          Nothing would change that. No.
  30. -1
    30 May 2023 10: 12
    A helicopter is a weapon that cannot be immortal, a helicopter is more mobile and more powerful than a UAV, you need to develop tactics, air defense suppression systems, and use anti-radar missiles. Well, as for the helicopters in Ukraine, they were supplied with this stuff in bulk, plus any helicopter is converted into a strike one, the Mi8 will not let you lie ..
  31. +4
    30 May 2023 10: 13
    The author hasn't covered everything yet.

    One of the main problems of helicopters, among others, is basing. Due to their low speed, they must be based relatively close to the LBS. For example, in Chernobaevka.

    A helicopter is better than an airplane with low speed and, accordingly, the possibility of more thoughtful work against the ground. If we consider the helicopter only as a carrier of high-precision weapons, then the aircraft is better in everything. And small, by the type of agricultural aviation and large.
  32. -3
    30 May 2023 10: 30
    I myself am not a pilot, but I studied the issue of using helicopters. The most useful were interviews with attack helicopter pilots.
    My opinion is that helicopters on NWO are effective. Mainly due to the use of Vikhr anti-tank systems from the safe zone (both from MANPADS and from air defense systems). Their goals are equipment, fortifications, uncovered HP groups.
    Many say about NURs that this is a useless weapon. But it is not so . When working with NURs, an onboard aiming system is used, thanks to which they achieve acceptable accuracy of hitting areas. Another question is that HE warheads are not particularly effective against BT and infantry in cover.
    But if the NAR had a cluster warhead with cumulative fragmentation elements (like Tornado-S) and a range of up to 10 km, then the effectiveness of the use of the NAR would increase by an order of magnitude. This is especially true when repelling an offensive.
    1. +1
      30 May 2023 12: 23
      Quote: Alexander
      Many say about NURs that this is a useless weapon. But it is not so . When working with NURs, an onboard aiming system is used, thanks to which they achieve acceptable accuracy of hitting areas.

      Acceptable area accuracy is how? Need to hit an area or a target?
      Quote: Alexander
      But if the NAR had a cluster warhead with cumulative fragmentation elements (like Tornado-S) and a range of up to 10 km, then the effectiveness of the use of the NAR would increase by an order of magnitude.

      If the NAR had a cluster warhead with cumulative fragmentation elements (like Tornado-S), then it would be a missile from Tornado-S, do you propose hanging launchers from MLRS under the pylons?))) But seriously, have you heard the S-13? But there are only 5 of them in the package. So the coverage area with a full package is possibly very different from the C-8, moreover, it is smaller and the efficiency is an order of magnitude - this is from the realm of non-science fiction.
    2. +2
      30 May 2023 12: 50
      When working with NURs, an onboard aiming system is used

      which does not know how to work with NAR in the cabling mode.
  33. 0
    30 May 2023 10: 49
    As already mentioned in the article, the future of attack helicopters is in their unmanned versions. Indeed, by removing the pilots and their life support systems, more attention can be paid to the protection of machines. This means that our famous design bureaus Mil and Kamov (especially) will not be left without work.
  34. -2
    30 May 2023 11: 14
    5 points! Well thought out and well thought out!
  35. -1
    30 May 2023 11: 14
    In 1999, the US Army deployed attack helicopters to Albania to intervene in the civil war in Yugoslavia, but, among other things, the helicopters never entered combat due to the threat of "small arms fire,.....

    There was information that the Yugoslavs bombed the airfield with helicopters.
    1. 0
      30 May 2023 21: 19
      Rather, they decided not to bring the matter to close combat (and the relief there + air defense contributed) and still managed without helicopters.
  36. 0
    30 May 2023 11: 43
    Helicopters are ineffective in positional warfare, as they are now. When there are breakthroughs and throws for tens and hundreds of kilometers, then helicopters are effective. At the beginning of the SVO, there were many videos where exactly helicopters strike at armored vehicles. Maneuverability and speed are the main qualities of a helicopter. When the front is not moving, naturally you can only wait for them to "cabrate by NURSs"
  37. The comment was deleted.
  38. +3
    30 May 2023 12: 00
    This is not a cemetery, this is a collapse. The collapse of the site "military review". For publishing such "analytics" is already the final breaking through of the bottom.
    I could not immediately understand whether it was composed under drugs, or to order. However, the fact that the author "did not notice" the Soviet experience in using helicopters in Afghanistan is more like the second option.
    It is understandable, it is somehow inconvenient to cite the experience of Afghanistan. Although the USSR lost about 333 vehicles there, the specific losses in relation to the raid there were low. Moreover, out of 333 machines, half can be safely attributed to the flight crew. Alas, having felt freedom, we had a break there as best we could. But do not tell relatives that he killed himself. Therefore, most often an English trophy rifle was taken and "evidence" in the form of holes was applied to the wreckage.
    More than once I have heard objections that the saturation of air defense in Afghanistan was less, because there were no catastrophic losses. However, there were so many of the same “stingers”, which was then enough for the benefactors themselves. And besides them, there were other MANPADS, and MZA, and even RPGs, under those conditions, worked quite well.
    Afghanistan was the most difficult in terms of air defense, if only because the safe territory there ended beyond the outer border of the protected area of ​​​​the airfield.
    And low losses were because they worked, accumulated experience, drew conclusions.
    That's just all this experience over the next decades, the leadership of the Russian Federation merged into the toilet along with army aviation. In the USSR, the army had about 7200 helicopters and the group continued to grow. In the Russian Federation, at the beginning of the NWO, there were no more than 1300 cars in total. And where can we allocate a sufficient number of forces and means from these relics?
    But even the meager number that got to the SVO can be quite successfully used if you strictly follow the Soviet tactics of using combat helicopters.
    And to begin with, remember why they are needed at all.
    Of course, the author of the opus is not in the know, therefore I personally explain to him: the main task of combat helicopters is to support the ground forces at the forefront, primarily by destroying armored targets.
    At the same time, acting on WWI and at a distance of 2 km from the line of contact. And helicopters should not destroy any targets in tactical depth, it's like hammering nails with a microscope.
    In Ukraine, there is a front line, therefore, all the conditions are to act according to tactics, without substituting for enemy air defense. If someone is not in the know, then a helicopter with a height of less than 15 m can only be shot down by their MANPADS by accident. And that is if you try really hard. As for the medium-range air defense systems and above, if a helicopter was substituted for them, then this is either a criminal order, or insufficient training of the crew.
    What do we see in Ukraine? I could give fragments of conversations with colleagues, those words that prevail there are unacceptable by the rules of the site.
    In short, the optimization of the army, based on the greed of the oligarchic government, has led to the fact that the leadership of the armed forces is forced to "save". And taking into account the fact that what was the selection of leading personnel during this optimization, this savings turned out to be very bloody.
    Helicopters operate in pairs, or even singly. Such a concept as PSO is forgotten as a class, only imitation remains. There are not enough ATGMs. They put into practice the suicidal tactics of launching ATGMs from the hover mode. Helicopters now and then replace attack aircraft, and even the IBA acting behind the front line. All this was not slow to affect the losses.
    But are combat helicopters to blame? Certainly not. It is necessary to increase the number of these, the production of weapons and, first of all, ATGMs, to return to the tactics developed during the Soviet period.
    But again, it's all very expensive for our "money bags". It is better for them to lose money in foreign banks. Yes, and how to increase the production of combat helicopters, if we have actually failed in the production of engines for them. Despite the fact that the army is equipped according to the residual principle, priority is given to foreign contracts, this is sacred.
    So similar articles come out, where the weakness of the state is masked by the "uselessness of helicopters."
    1. +4
      30 May 2023 13: 02
      At the same time, acting on WWI and at a distance of 2 km from the line of contact.

      This is the death of a helicopter in the conflict in Ukraine.
      If someone is not in the know, then a helicopter with a height of less than 15 m can only be shot down by their MANPADS by accident.

      It is not.
      1. +1
        30 May 2023 13: 50
        This is the death of a helicopter in the conflict in Ukraine.


        Why all of a sudden? How many ZSU will you see in the advanced orders? Like any means of support, they follow behind. With MANPADS, too, not everything is simple with target capture at WWI. In addition, the launch angle is not the most optimal.

        It is not.


        Exactly. The lower limit of the same "stinger" according to various sources is 10-20 meters. But this is in ideal conditions as flat as a table terrain. Irregularities in the terrain, various kinds of obstacles greatly reduce the capabilities of MANPADS. Even if the helicopter makes a short jump, the MANPADS operator simply does not have enough time to react.
        In addition, I repeat, not to fly from the bulldozer, but to think over the routes in advance in relation to the conditions and tactical situation, how to enter, where to turn away, and so on.
        I repeat, war is work both in the air and on the ground. The map is erased a week before the holes.
        And when attacks at random, then this is the result.
        1. +5
          30 May 2023 14: 53
          Why all of a sudden?

          Too many of the weapons available to the Armed Forces of Ukraine have an effective range of destruction in excess of 2 km.
          How many ZSU will you see in the advanced orders? Like any means of support, they follow behind.

          In the areas of responsibility of the oporniks have not gone anywhere. Understand that at an altitude of 15 meters by 2 km, even IFV autocannons will have enough guidance angles and angular rate of turn.
          And when flying at 10 meters, you will have to sacrifice situational awareness, since the brain will be loaded with how not to somersault on something.
          By the way, the program Air Launched Effects (ALE) mentioned in the article is just, first of all, about this, only the author of the article did not understand this. As are the commentators.
          The lower limit of the same "stinger" according to various sources is 10-20 meters.

          MANPADS with IR GOS were tested for the possibility of hitting even ground targets. In practice, there was a case when an inflatable boat of Somali pirates was hit from a Stinger, black rubber heated in the sun turned out to be enough against the background of the sea. For the same MANPADS, the guidance of which is based on other principles (the same laser path), there are no conceptual obstacles to working on the ground at all. As well as for modern missiles, which use an imaging IR seeker instead of an IR seeker. The minimum height figures indicated in the performance characteristics are somewhat crafty - they are always associated with the minimum range figure, the rocket just needs to enter the marching mode. In the case of finding the target at large distances, the boundaries of the minimum height are blurred.
          1. -1
            30 May 2023 17: 21
            Too many of the weapons available to the Armed Forces of Ukraine have an effective range of destruction in excess of 2 km.


            In addition to the range, there is also altitude, so it doesn’t roll.

            In the areas of responsibility of the oporniks have not gone anywhere. Understand that at an altitude of 15 meters by 2 km, even IFV autocannons will have enough guidance angles and angular rate of turn.
            And when flying at 10 meters, you will have to sacrifice situational awareness, since the brain will be loaded with how not to somersault on something.
            By the way, the program Air Launched Effects (ALE) mentioned in the article is just, first of all, about this, only the author of the article did not understand this. As are the commentators.


            Are you having another seizure? Well, it's even funny, you are trying to tell me what I was doing and what you have no idea about.
            Firstly, 2 km is the minimum line and combat contact is not the front line of the enemy. Therefore, those same BMPs will be carried out by ATGMs from a much greater distance.
            Secondly, at 10 meters it’s still quite comfortable, when it’s 2-5, then it’s already a little strained. And do not forget that there are two pilots in the helicopter, while one is busy piloting, the second is just performing navigation and searching for targets.

            MANPADS with IR GOS were tested for the possibility of hitting even ground targets. In practice, there was a case when an inflatable boat of Somali pirates was hit from a Stinger, black rubber heated in the sun turned out to be enough against the background of the sea. For the same MANPADS, the guidance of which is based on other principles (the same laser path), there are no conceptual obstacles to working on the ground at all. As well as for modern missiles, which use an imaging IR seeker instead of an IR seeker. The minimum height figures indicated in the performance characteristics are somewhat crafty - they are always associated with the minimum range figure, the rocket just needs to enter the marching mode. In the case of finding the target at large distances, the boundaries of the minimum height are blurred.


            I said that you need to work in the cockpit, think ahead, cling to the warm slopes, turn towards the sun if possible, do not shine too much in front of the adversary, actively maneuver. De video of the defeat of Russian helicopters, this is usually on an idiotic hover, that is, on a static machine.
            Well, no one canceled massaging, it immediately discourages any desire to counteract.
            1. +2
              30 May 2023 18: 05
              In addition to the range, there is also altitude, so it doesn’t roll.

              You indicated "altitude" - 15 meters. So "rolls".
              Are you having another seizure? Well, it's even funny, you are trying to tell me what I was doing and what you have no idea about.

              Well, you can't have a normal conversation.
              What exactly are you claiming? In addition, at 2 km and a height of 15 meters you will be in the zone of destruction of BMP autocannons?
              Firstly, 2 km is the minimum line and combat contact is not the front line of the enemy.

              I repel only from your words - "support for ground forces on the front line, primarily by destroying armored targets ... At the same time, acting on WWI and at a distance of 2 km from the line of contact."
              Therefore, those same BMPs will be carried out by ATGMs from a much greater distance.

              The reverse medal of "a much greater distance" is that you have to rise above 10 meters, for 10 km of Whirlwind (the limit of our ATGMs, and from a greater height) exactly 10 times. With all the consequences. Since even low hills are 10 meters high, buildings and trees planted along the roads form giant dead zones.
              From a "much greater distance" other wearable weapons, whose range exceeds 5 km, will not go anywhere.
              in the cockpit you need to work, think ahead, cling to the warm slopes, turn towards the sun if possible, do not shine too much in front of the adversary, actively maneuver.

              1) You will not understand in any way the moment that the helicopter weapon systems that we have are applicable ONLY in conditions of line of sight of the target (LoS - line of site) and until the moment of defeat. That is, if you see the enemy, then the enemy sees you. What is fraught with you guess? This is the root of all troubles. No matter how much you "think ahead", this will not cancel it in any way.
              2) Leave "warm slopes, lapels towards the sun" and other army tales in the 80s. MANPADS have long ignored these "tricks".
              1. -1
                31 May 2023 00: 17
                You indicated "altitude" - 15 meters. So "rolls".


                You, as always, did not understand what it was about.

                Well, you can't have a normal conversation.
                What exactly are you claiming? In addition, at 2 km and a height of 15 meters you will be in the zone of destruction of BMP autocannons?


                And how do you perceive a hedgehog when you tell me for more than one hour on this same WWI, what is it like there? lol
                You didn’t even understand that it was about not getting closer than 2 km and not rising above 15 m to the line of contact. And this is far from the same thing as the advanced formations of the enemy. And who said that the distance of 2 km and the height will be exactly 15 m?

                The reverse medal of "a much greater distance" is that you have to rise above 10 meters, for 10 km of Whirlwind (the limit of our ATGMs, and from a greater height) exactly 10 times. With all the consequences. Since even low hills are 10 meters high, buildings and trees planted along the roads form giant dead zones.
                From a "much greater distance" other wearable weapons, whose range exceeds 5 km, will not go anywhere.


                You are again let down by the lack of experience in real flights. Why rise above 10 meters if you can correctly use the terrain and at the same time even have a lower true height.

                1) You will not understand in any way the moment that the helicopter weapon systems that we have are applicable ONLY in conditions of line of sight of the target (LoS - line of site) and until the moment of defeat. That is, if you see the enemy, then the enemy sees you. What is fraught with you guess? This is the root of all troubles. No matter how much you "think ahead", this will not cancel it in any way.


                It’s not enough to see (although you still need to manage to notice a helicopter in WWI), you also need to get it. And I repeat, the targets of the helicopter are in advanced combat formations, and there, with a special variety of air defense systems, there is not a lot.

                2) Leave "warm slopes, lapels towards the sun" and other army tales in the 80s. MANPADS have long ignored these "tricks".


                Leave stories about super smart MANPADS for sofa gatherings, where they belong.
                No offense, no matter how much you read the Internet, you will not become a helicopter specialist. You will never be able to get out of the concept of a flat earth in the sterile conditions of the training ground.
              2. -2
                31 May 2023 23: 38
                Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                Leave "warm slopes, lapels towards the sun" and other army tales in the 80s. MANPADS have long ignored these "tricks".


                You also exaggerate the effectiveness of MANPADS. And in terms of leaks and supply volumes of Stingers, they are launched by our helicopters about 340 (!) Pieces per month. At the same time, an average of 2 helicopters per month are shot down from MANPADS. If we add OS launches (60 missiles / month), then the probability of hitting the Stinger is below 0,3%. This is due to the factors of the very high effectiveness of Vitebsk against MANPADS, as well as the fact that defective expired Stingers were transferred to the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Cryogenic IR seekers are usually designed for storage for 10 years, and then their efficiency drops sharply due to leakage. No one did the current repair of the Stingers and their production has long been discontinued.

                The main problem now is not at all in MANPADS and a close air defense system, their effectiveness, if you do not drive tales of the 2020s, is ridiculous. The problem is completely different. The helicopter, in fact, does not compete in terms of price and quality with the ZALA + Lancet reconnaissance aircraft. The cost of the Lancet is much lower than the Vortex, and the arms are much longer (50-70 km) and he usually does not deal with nonsense like BMPs, not because the head is weak, but because the M777 or radar is much more expensive than the Deshman BMP both in price and in tactical value. Electronic warfare on modern drones on artificial intelligence on convolutional neural networks has practically no effect from the word at all. The Lancet flies visually without GPS and also visually locks onto a target with Nvidia Jetson. Similarly, the ZALA scout is much better at looking for targets with a neural network than a person and flies out of the electronic warfare zone only to report that he has found a snack.

                In this regard, the helicopter as a means of reconnaissance of targets is slightly less than completely outdated. Helicopter weapons are more expensive than kamikaze drones and much worse.

                Indeed, it is possible to equip a helicopter with a reconnaissance drone, and launch Lancets from the helicopter itself. It almost is. Low losses from MANPADS are also because ZALA and Albatross really reconnoiter targets, the guards fly only to launch Whirlwinds. However, it is even more effective to simply make the Orion UAV the carrier of the Lancets. It can hang for 24 hours, it costs 2 times cheaper than the Ka-52 even with the same radar as in the Ka-52M
                1. -1
                  1 June 2023 13: 15
                  On this site, I try not to waste my time talking to children (overage infantiles also fall under this category).
                  PS The main problems with MANPADS are not with the Stinger, but with the Polish Lightning.
  39. +2
    30 May 2023 12: 09
    Um ... The topic is relevant, but the logic and presentation are lame on both or four broken legs. It seems that the author himself does not understand what he writes and what he writes about, but he understands that something is wrong here))) somewhere we are being harassed).
    My IMHO - helicopters like aircraft are not outdated, but:
    1. The old farts who develop managerial decisions on the development of this technique and the tactics of its use are outdated, but everything can be seen there will change only with the removal of bodies, and replacement with less shabby ones, but how much it will change is a big question.
    2. Helicopters should be considered as a SYSTEM: the carrier / platform is a weapon / means of destruction, and in this context it is already more clearly seen that the king is not completely naked)) but he does not have modern weapons at all, and that’s where everything these launches are from a pitch-up, and not because helicopters are everything.
    3. Carriers (helicopters) have both their own specific problems (obsolescence of individual systems or their absence), global ones (tied to the impotence of the industrial base) and inherent in principle to all Russian technology and, I don’t know how to say for sure, the problems of specific models as a set of extremely unsuccessful decisions when it is easier to bury than to redo.
    4. It’s better to keep silent about weapons as if they were dead, they don’t exist, otherwise what is there can be compared with stone axes and it is in it that the main problem is at the moment.
  40. +1
    30 May 2023 12: 15
    The topic was raised correctly, but the author does not know how much equipment and Bandera troops were destroyed by our helicopters, the question of survival, but very difficult, in Afghanistan more than 300 aircraft were shot down in ten years, and in fact a hundred in a year, the question is different, that the modernization of helicopters cannot be avoided , but where is the technical task? Armor does not save from the stinger, my opinion as a pilot of the Mi-8, Ka-26, Ka-27, the future belongs to the Ka-50 with maximum modernization and artificial intelligence, and one pilot is not two 200x, and the AWACS Ka-31 helicopter is a must in conjunction and an evacuation helicopter with a dshg and everything will be a bunch soldier
    And there is protection from the stinger, this is a PMV of 2-5 meters no more, more than 15 meters is death, well, complexes like the President, we had Lipa, etc. limit, firing from everything that is and not less than a link, but bunks from framing, which is in a finger in the sky ...
  41. +2
    30 May 2023 12: 19
    Not only helicopters, but also Armenian aviation as a class are becoming a thing of the past with the advent of drones.
    The concept that the helicopter is a drone mother is also crazy, the author says that the antenna is 500 meters better than 0. Yes, it is. But why use an expensive large vulnerable helicopter when you can make a cheap small repeater drone?
    1. -2
      30 May 2023 20: 40
      Yes, you said it well. Aptly. You can't call the existing disgrace otherwise than Armenian aviation.
  42. +1
    30 May 2023 12: 40
    Abstract of the article:
    If the enemy is weak or has no protection from this particular weapon, then he can be hit with anything: attack helicopters, tanks, drones, and even a mop handle.
    If he is strong and has protection from this weapon, then you won’t succeed.
  43. -1
    30 May 2023 12: 47
    Well, he didn't disappoint. :)
    Well, for starters. There are not so many serial percussion helicopters. In fact, they are threeAppach, Mi-28 and Ka-52. The rest, either alterations of non-core machines, or both Japanese and European versions, are produced in small series and rather as a tribute to fashion, and not an implementation of a concept proven in battle.
    Mi-24 refers to the "alterations". Its shock versions were made in single copies and did not cancel the fact that it was first landing, and only then assault. His task is to carry the infantry and support it in battle. The task of attack helicopters is to INDEPENDENTLY fight.

    At least back in October 2022, Konashenkov’s department (On Destroyed Aviation) announced the destruction of 162 Ukrainian helicopters. The problem is that at the beginning of the NWO, the Armed Forces of Ukraine did not have such a number of helicopters, even taking into account training and prototypes. Alas. Therefore, we will not count the losses, this is a matter for a separate investigation, we will simply take as a starting point what, in general, observers and analysts say that Russia and Ukraine lost a total of about a hundred attack helicopters.


    I don’t understand at all why Skomorokhov sprinkled this? Apparently he really wanted to show what kind of "mother's oppositionist" he is. But on the other hand, he clearly showed what scale an error can result from a banal neglect of definitions. After all, if you follow the classification, then at the beginning of the database, Ukraine did not have attack helicopters at all. Destroyed 162 boards are any kind of machine, but definitely not shock. Is it possible that this is the Mi-8 or Mi-24, which the inquisitive Bandera cerebellum, in a fit of extreme puffiness, proclaimed shock?

    What follows is a couple of mocking paragraphs about our percussion machines and what, as I understand it, the article was started for. Another demonstration of buffoon pride in the US military-industrial complex and their knowledge of it. Again, I don’t understand why this demonstration of the author’s public knowledge was needed, but apparently a volume was needed.

    Only in the last third of the article do we get what should be at the beginning - arguments. Here is an example of a strange argument:
    An interesting point.
    At the beginning of the NMD, Ukraine (Air Force + Army Aviation) had at its disposal 35-37 Mi-24s of all modifications and about 70 Mi-8s of all types. How many of them were on the move is unknown, but it is clear that not all of them were in flying condition.

    I don't understand what's so interesting? And most importantly, what does this have to do with the issue of attack helicopters? But apparently the word had to.

    And, pay attention, the Ukrainians do not ask for helicopters from the allies. Tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, self-propelled guns, air defense systems, tactical missiles, aircraft - but they don’t ask for helicopters. No one. What does it say?


    About what? About the fact that the author is simply not aware of the requests? Or that the requests for helicopters are not covered in the media? Or that they do not expect to receive them, since all of Europe those "Tigers"
    Spain - 24 of which: 6 Tiger HAP-E and 18 Tiger HAD-E, as of 2021
    Germany - 51 Tiger, as of 2021
    France - 67, of which: 29 Tiger HAP and 38 Tiger HAD, as of 2021
    And many more tanks?
    Or maybe that they ask for what they need in the FIRST of all? Or maybe that they are asking for exactly what the shtatovites indicate to them in their desire to subordinate Lohokida Martin to the military-industrial complex of Europe? And modet because ANY Ukrainian attempts to fly sadly end? Why would the author not reveal his thought explicitly? :)

    Mark Kansian, Senior Advisor, Center for Strategic and International Studies

    Who is this and why should his opinion be of interest to me, and even more important to someone?

    This is followed by an advertising campaign for another US wunderwaffle for the "war with the monkeys." The author apparently forgot that having risen by 400-500 meters, the helicopter will fall into the coverage area of ​​ALL currently existing air defense systems on the battlefield. And he will hang controlling low-speed, and even more so loitering UAVs, exactly as long as it takes from the moment his mark appears on the radar until the arrival of the missile defense system.

    The author, obviously from the sect of "Witnesses of Lohokid Martin", that is, he is so fascinated by the US military-industrial complex that he sees ANY movement of his strange thought as at least a REVELATION. Otherwise, it’s hard for me to understand what new and breakthrough he saw in an attempt to replace the UR with a strike UAV? Apparently, the author did not know and does not know, since PopMech could not write to him about this, but when developing the Mi-28, two concepts of guided weapons were initially discussed. The second was... a flying TV camera. What is now implemented in the "product 305". Well, now explain Skomorokhov to me, how does the "flying camera" of "Product 305" differ, in addition to the type of engine and speed, from the US kamikaze drone that you joyfully advertise?


    In general, in those days it was believed that the USSR would operate with huge tank wedges, which was generally confirmed by tens of thousands of produced tanks.


    The author forgot to say WHO was considered. And NATO strategists thought so. In the USSR, such nonsense was not traded.

    Well, on business.
    The use of attack helicopters in general is a difficult question, their creators understood EXCELLENTLY that this weapon is niche and there are a lot of dangers for it on the battlefield. For reference: the same design bureau is engaged in the armament of the Mi-28 and the development of MANPADS. People there are well aware of how to fight with an attack helicopter and how to shoot it down. That is why all sorts of slanderous concepts such as hovering at a height of half a kilometer and controlling low-speed UAVs cause them (depending on temperament) to either fur or move a finger at the temple. That is why the UR Attack is supersonic, which is why the automatic target tracking allows the Mi-28 to start an evasive maneuver IMMEDIATELY after the missile is launched.
    Talking about the "decline" of attack helicopters without even a rough idea of ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXbthe concept of their use is a typical Skomorokhov. :)
    And yet, in Ukraine, attack helicopters are practically not used. What they love to show to the media at the suggestion of the Kamov lobby is a profanation of the concept of an attack helicopter. When a Ka-52 stuffed with electronics and equipped with a radar is engaged in shooting a pack of NURS - this is a mockery, this is nonsense, this is a clear declaration of the inability of the design bureau-developer to make an attack helicopter. The Mi-28N and Mi-28NM stood in the hangars for a year, primarily because the next "enerel" discovered another "blinding pilot glasses". Only this time in the electronic security system. And after NATO helped deploy the Soviet air defense system in Ukraine, planes stopped flying there too. It was only recently that data began to come in about the beginning of the use of bombs from aircraft.
    1. +2
      30 May 2023 13: 15
      There are not so many serial attack helicopters in the world. In fact, they are threeAppach, Mi-28 and Ka-52.

      No
      climbing 400-500 meters helicopter will fall within the coverage area of ​​ALL currently existing air defense systems on the battlefield. And hang while driving low-speed, and even more loitering UAVs

      No.
      Well, now explain Skomorokhov to me, how does the "flying camera" of "Product 305" differ, in addition to the type of engine and speed, from the US kamikaze drone that you joyfully advertise?

      At least the flight range.
      That is why all sorts of false concepts such as hovering at a height of half a kilometer and controlling low-speed UAVs

      There is no such concept.
      UR Attack is supersonic, which is why the automatic target tracking allows the Mi-28 to start an evasive maneuver IMMEDIATELY after the missile is launched.

      At the same time, just voice the restrictions on the maneuver first.
    2. +3
      30 May 2023 13: 23
      Mi-24 refers to the "alterations". Its shock versions were made in single copies and did not cancel the fact that it was first landing, and only then assault. His task is to carry the infantry and support it in battle.


      Are you composing from the world of dreams? Write down on your forehead, the main function of the Mi-24 is shock, the transportation of people and goods is an auxiliary function. And then it appeared only because, as a result of the layout work, a certain free space was formed, which was later allocated to a rudimentary cargo compartment. The Mi-2 has even more.
      And although the possibility of transporting and landing troops is spelled out in the instructions of the crew, in practice no one did this. Moreover, I served in the 11th ODShBr. So, the entire personnel of the battalions was assigned to the Mi-6 and Mi-8 helicopters. There was no provision for assigning units to the Mi-24 in the state.
      And as practice has shown, the absence of even a hint of a cargo compartment in the Ka-52 (there is something similar on the Mi-28) greatly reduces the autonomy of the machine.


      The task of attack helicopters is to INDEPENDENTLY fight.


      Bullshit. Combat helicopters work in the interests of the ground forces.
    3. 0
      30 May 2023 15: 40
      No, in principle, like Skomorokhov’s, it’s long and in some places on the topic, only in a fit of passion you messed up a little like him))), especially at the end, the soul of an adept or employee at the RFP from KB Mil could not stand it))) burned, yes) ))
      Quote: abc_alex
      Apparently, the author did not know and does not know, since PopMech could not write to him about this, but when developing the Mi-28, two concepts of guided weapons were initially discussed. The second was... a flying TV camera.

      Apparently the author did not know that in addition to the Mil design bureau, there is another design bureau, or he stubbornly refuses to recognize it))), and the application concepts are not developed at all by design bureaus))) and they are, in principle, common to everyone)
      Quote: abc_alex
      The second was... a flying TV camera. What is now implemented in the "product 305". Well, now explain Skomorokhov to me, how does the "flying camera" of "Product 305" differ, in addition to the type of engine and speed, from the US kamikaze drone that you joyfully advertise?

      Well, TV GSN was not born yesterday, although for you it may be America again open) Well, I don’t even want to comment further. The differences are at least that helicopters are not needed for drones, and the range of destruction, unlike this miscarriage and-305, reaches four-digit numbers at a lower cost.
      Well, the sweetest
      Quote: abc_alex
      What they love to show to the media at the suggestion of the Kamov lobby is a profanation of the concept of an attack helicopter.

      Well, why do you want to burn like that))) Kamov's lobby))) It's just that if you raise the history of the lobby just at Mil's, it's not weak, it's so bad in terms of the development of helicopters in Russia. And yes, these magic words of a smart person "the concept of an attack helicopter"))) But can you share the concept from the temple of true faith - KB Mil?
      Quote: abc_alex
      When a Ka-52 stuffed with electronics and equipped with a radar is engaged in shooting a pack of NURS - this is a mockery, this is nonsense, this is a clear declaration of the inability of the design bureau-developer to make an attack helicopter.

      Well, then frankly lies and throwing shit at the competitor, just in the spirit of Mil))) Only you didn’t have enough brains to understand that you yourself shit on your head))) Because Oops! Both spacecraft and MI use the SAME weapons U-unification))). And this is not the inability of the Kamovtsy to make a helicopter))) because then you couldn’t become a drummer either))) If you are already engaged in the substitution of concepts, then ask smart people how to do it correctly) This is the LACK of NORMAL weapons for helicopters, for which completely different design bureaus are responsible.
      Quote: abc_alex
      The Mi-28N and Mi-28NM stood in the hangars for a year, primarily because the next "enerel" discovered another "blinding pilot glasses". Only this time in the electronic security system.

      How pathetic you are, and this is not an insult, this is a statement of fact. I would not write such a thing at all, but again you have no intelligence. Your non-helicopters were laid up because you couldn’t be a drummer, unlike the Kamovites, and someone at the top had the conscience and brains to make a decision and not send the pilots to certain death. That is why your non-helicopters, unlike the Ka-52, DO NOT HAVE ANY PROTECTION from MANPADS, which was captured on video, and there is also no chance of surviving after the defeat. But you cowardly preferred to hide this fact behind the phrase:
      another "enerel" discovered another "glasses blinding pilots". Only this time in the electronic security system.

      Behind which is the absence of the Mi-28 KBO from MANPADS, which the Ka-52 has
      Do not disgrace the unknown employee of the Mil Design Bureau.
    4. -1
      30 May 2023 20: 53
      Quote: abc_alex
      There are not so many serial attack helicopters in the world. In fact, they are threeAppach, Mi-28 and Ka-52. The rest, either alterations of non-core machines, or both Japanese and European versions, are produced in small series and rather as a tribute to fashion, and not an implementation of a concept proven in battle.


      "Tiger", Z-19 and "Viper" were produced in a larger series than the Mi-28, and on a par with the Ka-52 (about 200 pieces each).
  44. +3
    30 May 2023 13: 01
    Do not confuse warm with soft.
    If the Amers AN-64 is sharpened to fight tanks, this does not mean that it cannot solve other problems.
    And why don’t they transfer the AN-64 to Khokhls - they don’t have pilots.
    AN-64 is not a hang glider for you to learn on it in a couple of hours.
    AN-64 is a complex thing.
    And in general, piloting an attack helicopter is years of study. This is much more difficult than on the F-16.
    So it is with us - attack helicopters require special skills, knowledge and skills.
    And we had no experience in using the Mi-28 and Ka-52 (well, if the current is a bit Syrian). And right now, the experience is slowly accumulating. We learn, we think.
    Let them shoot with NURs .. let them.
    If there are no targets for ATGMs, then NURs will help.
    So they are popular, they accumulate statistics, they will make adjustments to the combat use and to the design of NURs and helicopters.
    Attack helicopters have not gone away. They just do the tasks that are put in front of them.
  45. +1
    30 May 2023 13: 06
    What a strange article. Nothing to be honest...
    Well, there were quite a few planes and tanks on both sides. And the same Su-34 and Su-35 are also on the list. But as soon as UMPCs began to arrive en masse at the FABs, our aircraft practically ceased to be shot down by the enemy. So it is with turntables, the point is not at all in the carrier itself, but in what it can shoot, at what distance, and with what accuracy. Put ATGMs on the Ka-52 with an effective range of 15 km, and they will not be afraid of any MANPADS and anti-aircraft artillery.
    PS: with the advent of anti-tank systems and RPGs, tanks were also written off by many theorists. Yes, and now they do not stop doing it))))
  46. +2
    30 May 2023 13: 21
    The author did not ask the question, how many of these unguided rockets are in the warehouses of Russia? Like FAB-250,500 etc. Who are now effectively bringing down the Natsiks. Let it pitch up, but the car and, first of all, the crew is alive. Taking into account the experience of the SVO, they will develop a system.
  47. 0
    30 May 2023 13: 22
    There is no Sungur MANPADS in Ukraine. Sungur is a Turkish MANPADS that has not yet entered the mass production phase. Most of the article is based on an article from "popularmechanics.com". This was the source of this incorrect information.
  48. +1
    30 May 2023 13: 51
    Quote: Zoer
    Put ATGMs on the Ka-52 with an effective range of 15 km, and they will not be afraid of any MANPADS and anti-aircraft artillery.


    And what, at a distance of less than 15 km, MANPADS and MZA are already becoming effective? And I naively believed that they can only work up to 5-6 km, and even then, if the terrain and weather conditions allow.
  49. 0
    30 May 2023 14: 00
    Quote: Konnick
    To make flying crocodiles even heavier ... It's like with the Il-2 attack aircraft, one of the myths of the Great Patriotic War. They made them heavier with armor so that they became easy prey for fighters, and bulletproof armor did not save them from the main 20mm anti-aircraft guns.


    It was just necessary to apply it tactically competently, to provide fighter cover.
    The aircraft as a whole was not saved by the reservation, but the pilots were saved, and often. And the IL-2 was simple and cheap to manufacture, it is no coincidence that they were riveted in such quantities.
    1. -1
      30 May 2023 15: 48
      And the IL-2 was simple and cheap to manufacture, it is no coincidence that they were riveted in such quantities.

      The most complex and expensive of our single-engine aircraft.
  50. +2
    30 May 2023 14: 18
    Some nonsense. The helicopter is the weapon of the future. Taking into account the fact that ALL military equipment is smoothly moving towards "unmanned" control, it is the same here. A pair of helicopters calmly strikes a company stronghold, a company on the march, and stops the advance of the same company. A MANPADS gunner doesn't sit in every trench, make no mistake. Moreover, the helicopter can easily sneak up to its target, taking advantage of the folds of the terrain. As with tanks, some kind of armor capsules will most likely be developed, and ejection can be considered as a capsule. The whole point is that there should be a lot of helicopters, even a lot. A hanging link or pair over the battlefield should not be an event, but 24\7\365 changing each other. It is necessary to ensure that the combined-arms commander does not "CALL" aviation, but "SETS A FIRE OBJECTIVE" !!!
    1. 0
      31 May 2023 09: 50
      Moreover, the helicopter can easily sneak up to its target, taking advantage of the folds of the terrain.

      Creep up??? Well, if only the enemy is wearing headphones with noise reduction, even then it is doubtful. Have you flown in a helicopter? There is such a roar and whistle worth ... sneaking up laughing You can hear it from 5 kilometers away. Planes are quieter.
      Hovering and vertical landing and takeoff are not particularly needed by strike aircraft, this is the prerogative of transport, sanitary, etc. These helicopters are too complicated, and they were stuffed with weapons ... at one time they installed everything in a row on the Ka-50, then they began to scratch their turnips how to manage all this, I had to make another helicopter with a crew of two, since the helicopter pilot must not be distracted from control.
      1. 0
        12 October 2023 00: 09
        since the helicopter pilot cannot be distracted from control.

        But for some reason the pilot of the Su-25 attack aircraft can be distracted.
  51. -1
    30 May 2023 16: 27
    The impression of the article is mixed. Toli Piatachek wrote, felts from a resident of the countries of the enemy bloc with access to our media space. Some numbers from the ceiling, the only conclusion to the topic is about "cabration". The rest is far-fetched .. And not a word about the work of ATGMs.
  52. +1
    30 May 2023 19: 31
    Here it is appropriate to recall the story when Khrushchev cut down airplanes, believing that rockets would replace everything. an attack helicopter has its advantages in theaters and one cannot treat it so categorically.
    1. -1
      31 May 2023 09: 54
      here it is appropriate to recall the story when Khrushchev cut down the planes

      So he turned out to be right
  53. 0
    30 May 2023 19: 37
    In general, it doesn't matter how many helicopters Russia has lost, but how many Ukraine has lost. It is clear that Ukraine is smaller, because initially everything was very bad with helicopters there.
    The author does not know that Ukraine is being armed with everything that can be found in Europe.
    Well, as for the fact that “their time has passed,” the tanks were also buried. One of those who thought so (Andrey Kochergin) even apologized in one of the video messages.
  54. 0
    30 May 2023 19: 59
    The problem is that quite recently, and even now, the Russian Ministry of Defense wrote exactly the opposite.
    From the pitch up - it's cool, cast iron - cool, give me more. helicopters are cool.

    Therefore the options are:
    1) The RF Ministry of Defense is right, the author is wrong, everything is fine. Armageddon generals are the best.

    2) The author is right, the RF Ministry of Defense .... is telling a lie (politely). Then someone has been deceiving the whole country for quite a long time. Fraud on an especially large scale, with the creation of an organized crime group.
    You can sit down for your full name, but everyone understands everything

    3) black is white and everyone pretends that it is so. And they nod where they need to when they need to, but behind their back they sleep or laugh (as in the Kremlin at the speeches of MOST).
    Or they swear when they see a receipt for rent.
  55. +1
    30 May 2023 22: 01
    The “experts” first buried the tank, but it didn’t work. Now an attempt to bury the helicopter. All air defense systems used in the air defense existed during Vietnam, the Americans lost not a hundred, but more than 5,5 thousand helicopters, and it never occurred to anyone to conclude that the helicopters were outdated. But our “experts” are no match for them...
    1. 0
      31 May 2023 06: 38
      We were talking about attack helicopters, and as for US losses, the main losses of helicopters concerned transport and evacuation vehicles, since this was practically the only transport for the delivery and evacuation of military personnel.
  56. 0
    30 May 2023 23: 27
    We remember how helicopters flew into the surrounded Azovstal and understand that the time of helicopters is not over yet.
    Well, the future belongs to unmanned aerial vehicles is clear to anyone and all manned vehicles, with the exception of maybe strategic bombers, will be decommissioned soon enough, this is clear
  57. 0
    30 May 2023 23: 29
    Quote: Maximus19
    And not a word about working with ATGMs.

    Because for one job with birds there are hundreds of flights with nurses.
    Well, writing like that about a fairly well-known author here, I’m sorry, doesn’t add weight to your comment
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  59. 0
    31 May 2023 04: 57
    Why drones are good: you can put both a pensioner and a disabled person unfit for military service behind the control panel.
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  61. +2
    31 May 2023 07: 49
    Quote: Konnick
    The most complex and expensive of our single-engine aircraft.


    Terribly expensive and terribly complex... which was riveted in quantities of almost 36 thousand.
    The cost of production of which during the war decreased from 700 thousand rubles to 250 thousand rubles due to mass production. However, some sources indicate a lower price.

    If you recalculate at the real (not official) exchange rate for Reichsmarks - 25 thousand.
    Yu-87 cost approximately 130 thousand Reichsmarks.

    If we convert to modern money, the price of the IL-2 is approximately 3.5 million rubles. The cost of a mid-range car.

    However, counting money, especially during war, is a so-so indicator. It is better to calculate in man-hours required to produce (adjusted for the qualifications and cost of labor) units of production. Here the Soviet attack aircraft also finds itself in an advantageous position. Cheaper and simpler and does not require complex and expensive technologies.
  62. +2
    31 May 2023 08: 19
    From the article and comments we can draw conclusions: helicopters, tanks, artillery, planes, etc. are wildly outdated, there are no shells..., no uniforms, no provisions, the last reserve remains, these are bloggers, article authors and commentators, VG and GSH are urgently needed form a combined assault detachment from the above characters and send them to break through the defense of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, having previously lined them up in a “pig” type battle formation, to save money, do not carry out supplies, there is nothing....
  63. 0
    31 May 2023 08: 34
    This “wonderful” thought came to me: shouldn’t I make a UAV interceptor out of a “vertical” one? UAVs like the “Moscow” ones may well “click”!
    1. 0
      31 May 2023 21: 23
      This “wonderful” thought came to me: shouldn’t I make a UAV interceptor out of a “vertical” one? UAVs like the “Moscow” ones may well “click”!


      You haven't come up with anything new. At one time, I had enough of the database in the air defense system for low-speed, low-flying aircraft.
      The only problem is that there is no one to intercept. Everything was shortened.
      https://maps.aopa.ru/#lon/39.014188/lat/54.544595/z/7/ll/a/bl/gm/p/9199
  64. 0
    31 May 2023 09: 30
    They also said the same thing about tanks after Chechnya. The topic is now closed. If there is a weapon or type of troops, it is not canceled but modernized and adapted. Name the type of troops that was cancelled.
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  66. +3
    31 May 2023 13: 53
    Quote: marc75
    From the article and comments we can draw conclusions: helicopters, tanks, artillery, airplanes, etc. are wildly outdated, there are no shells...., no uniforms, no provisions, the last reserve remains,


    Autobots with Decepticons and other OCBR. Well, there are also imperial elephant-like armored vehicles ("The Empire Strikes Back").

    The author should think about why the oldest branch of the military: the infantry, has not yet become morally obsolete. You'll be tired of listing what you can do to kill an infantryman, but without infantry you'll get nowhere, just like in the days of Sargon the Great.
  67. 0
    1 June 2023 02: 15
    Well, the IL-2 with the RS-82 under the wings wasn’t very accurate. From memory
    from Artyom Drabkin's collection "I Fought on the Il-2". And their losses were considerable.
    And from MKZA, and from fighters. However, the Germans have the nickname “schwarze tod”
    entrenched.
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    1. 0
      1 June 2023 08: 47
      Of course, there is a nuance associated with the duration of helicopter flights, but it can be partially solved by PTB, partially by modernization, and partially by changing the concept of use, which will be a priori in such conditions. This, of course, will limit the range of use of MALE with leaders, but in many cases it may be justified.
  69. +1
    2 June 2023 06: 36
    The author's arguments are strange. You can write a similar article about ANY weapon. Any weapon must have an effective counter-weapon and must have experience of illiterate use. And these are not arguments for abandoning it. Information about the supply of helicopters (supplies) that do not exist (but in fact exist) caused confusion. Well, the idea about the need to abandon attack helicopters is top! You need to work in mountainous areas, what if there are Stingers there? No, are we better off on foot?
  70. 0
    2 June 2023 13: 14
    Many people write about the problems helicopters have due to the presence of MANPADS in the trenches, but they forget that landing a helicopter is not such a trivial task. In fact, problems with the presence of MANPADS in the trenches begin on the second approach
    1. 0
      2 June 2023 14: 45
      The question is in combat tactics. It needs to be improved. Still, there is a place for helicopters at the front, especially the transport type. For example, the delivery of rapid response teams to emerging threats. And firing NURS from a nose-up position is hardly an effective fire task. It’s easier to fire high-precision missiles at previously scouted targets.
  71. 0
    2 June 2023 21: 17
    Dear author, three times while reading the article I tried to start writing an angry comment, but this is more a question for the VO editor. Authority is simply torn apart, crushed and trampled
  72. -1
    3 June 2023 10: 56
    Ten years ago, we positioned a breakthrough technology and a new type of propulsion for helicopters. This will increase payload, speed, maneuverability and flight duration. But apparently strategists see the algorithms for the development of events in the world better than us.
  73. +1
    3 June 2023 14: 40
    >The problem is that at the beginning of the Northern Military District, the Ukrainian Armed Forces did not have such a number of helicopters, even taking into account training and prototypes.

    Before the start of the SVO and Patriot complexes there were no in Ukraine, but there were over 50 S-300 divisions... the enemies had already stolen to Ukraine from all over the post-Soviet space everything that the long arms of the CIA and NATO could get their hands on.
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  75. +1
    4 June 2023 08: 49
    I have a question for the editor: is this Roman Skomorokhov a real person? Or is it a common pseudonym for a team of several people? For how can one person be a real expert in many matters, so to speak, a “master of sports in all sports”? Because he can talk about the foreign policy pursued by the governments of many countries, and about the shortcomings of military planning, and about the prospects, as in this article, of attack aircraft in the form of helicopters. As practice shows, such a broad outlook is usually found in people who do not understand anything at all about this topic. Either in one article he admires our wise leadership in the person of the Supreme Commander-in-Chief and the Minister of Defense, then in another article he criticizes them for what he admired in the previous one. So many questions and so few answers...
  76. +1
    4 June 2023 11: 40
    In general, it doesn't matter how many helicopters Russia has lost, but how many Ukraine has lost. It is clear that Ukraine is smaller, because initially everything was very bad with helicopters there.
    Yeah, that's the conclusion...
    And, please note, the Ukrainians are not asking for helicopters from their allies. Tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, self-propelled guns, air defense systems, tactical missiles, airplanes - but they don’t ask for helicopters.
    I think they are unlikely to give truthful information about who is asking for what and to whom they are giving what...
  77. +2
    4 June 2023 23: 48
    The article is complete nonsense.

    1. bko Vitebsk is simply a nullifier for thermal MANPADS. there are many videos where rockets fly past the helicopter in a continuous stream.
    2. Mi helicopters are being supplied to Ukraine from wherever possible. the same Afghan ones - all transferred. Croatian and many others.
    3. author, the materiel needs to be learned.
  78. 0
    6 June 2023 01: 57
    There is something to agree with. If, for example, you arm the Ka-52 with Lancet-type drones, you will get a good symbiosis. Firstly, the helicopter, as a means of anti-tank warfare and combating equipment in general, can quickly stop any breakthrough by arriving at the desired location. There will be no need to hold artillery barrels while maintaining the required density on LBS and infantry. The same applies to breaking through the front line in the desired area. And in general, if you tweak the suspension, then the number of drones (the same Lancets) that a helicopter can carry is not comparable with other means.

    But for this it is necessary to create a new class of weapons. Adapt kamikaze UAV technologies for use from helicopters. For example, the co-pilot can act as a UAV operator and guide it to the target. The ideal solution would be to introduce a neural network that, by recognizing the resulting image, will be able to select targets and hit the equipment.

    Let’s say there are reports about the movement of enemy equipment in a certain area, 2-3 helicopters flew to the location, launched packages of Lancets and went back. The lancets themselves recognized the targets and hit them. Operators in helicopters receive the latest footage from the UAV as video control of the destruction or at least destruction of enemy equipment. A very cool idea. An ideal symbiosis for me. But there is no need to wait for this.
  79. 0
    6 June 2023 21: 17
    curiosamente, no se menciona el impacto de los MANPADS en la guerra de Afganistan en tiempos de la URSS.
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  82. 0
    10 June 2023 13: 45
    Another fake article put together by IPSO padawans on a knee made of clay and sticks, like Gilgamesh among the Sumerians.
    1. Well, where are all these bright-faced citizens of Ashkelon and Haifa (all these Warriors Ukha and other stardom) who promised an armada of Bell AH-1G Hui Super Cobra in the sky of the border regions of the Russian Federation, scorching hated Russian outdated tanks?
    2. Where are all these bright hordes of squadrons of junk F-14\F-111\Fb-111\ F-5\F-16\F-15 from landfills in Nevada and Palm Dale, beautiful photos of former fuselages that some people love to post? Is it a contingent from libertarian publics and schizoid alternativeists to the history of military equipment from information dumps? Why was a certain “VO” user with the nickname Prokhvessor sulking at the discussion, furiously foaming at the mouth for drowning USAF & OTAN necroaviation?!
    3. Isn’t it these rubbish outdated Mi-28N and Ka-52, Mi-35S that set up a pig farm for armored vehicles and SMEs of the Armed Forces of Ukraine near Vradievka and Pologi? Well, the Leopard divers and their bosses won’t be able to give an interview about their opinion about the raid?
  83. 0
    18 July 2023 12: 55
    I remember a year before the start of the Northern Military District, Skomorokhov published an article on Military Military District about the uselessness and inferiority of UAVs at the front. Now the wind has changed and it is producing devastating articles on all types of weapons. I can only treat this “expert” as a veil and nothing more. And, I remember there were also a bunch of articles about how he personally entered into confrontation with Chemezov and Shoigu and almost defeated them.
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