Gun with radial guides. Additional justifications of the concept

96
Gun with radial guides. Additional justifications of the concept


1. Preamble


Readers of the Military Review are probably familiar with the two previous articles: “The concept of a pistol. A look from a new perspective "and" Russian arc against stereotypes ", which talk about a conceptually new principle of a pistol device - radial guides (RN) of the shutter, which sets out the technical side of the issue, draws parallels with existing close analogues, confirms the feasibility of the idea, and also discloses a whole list of significant advantages achieved over pistols of the classical scheme.



However, despite the publication of articles and the arguments given in them, disputes over a new concept that offers a very paradoxical breakthrough solution continue, opinions are divided.

A number of reputable gunsmiths at various times supported the idea and showed interest in developing the topic. Among other things, a positive opinion was given by the specialists of ZiD JSC, Kovrov; a specific intention to engage in the development and production of a pistol was expressed by "TEKHKRIM"; “The Kalashnikov Concern in the last conclusion noted “that there are indeed a number of positive aspects in this scheme,” and others.

But, unfortunately, every time attempts to create a prototype of a conceptually new domestic pistol encounter all sorts of obstacles.

On the other hand, even such seemingly experienced specialists as the editor-in-chief of the Kalashnikov magazine Mikhail Degtyarev and his editorial staff, who have an education and work experience in the specialty "small weaponare strongly opposed to this idea.

In this they rely, among other things, on the negative conclusions of TSNIITOCHMASH.

The well-known gunsmith and blogger Konstantin Konev also repeatedly expressed doubts about radial guides, preferring broken guides.

There are also a lot of those who also claim about the supposedly “low-tech manufacturing” of the launch vehicle, which gives them people who are inexperienced in matters of production and are not even familiar with the capabilities of modern CNC technologies. Moreover, many readers are easily led to such “authoritative expert opinions” about the next domestic “no analogues”.

All this led to the need to write an article outlining additional, if possible, exhaustive explanations on the principle of RH.

It should be noted that TSNIITOCHMASH, in its official conclusions, does not question the feasibility of a LV pistol.

Here is an excerpt from the conclusion of 9.08.2022/XNUMX/XNUMX:


Note. These pistols with radial bolt movement (backward and downward) have been discussed in previous articles. Moreover, the radius of movement of the shutter in the Hamilton pistol is more than 10 times steeper than in the proposed pistol - 130 mm versus 1 mm, which leads to increased friction in the system and is significantly inferior to the proposed PH scheme. And yet the Hamilton pistol have worked!

But the obvious advantages of applying the PH principle, even such as reducing the height of weapons 20 mm or more while ensuring a full grip of the handle with all fingers (!); recoil arm 0 mm and "sporty" ergonomics, as well as self-cocking USM striker type and the minimum achievable thickness of the weapon 25 ... 26 mm at gate thickness 23 ... 24 mm – TSNIITOCHMASH does not consider them “of interest” and “with commercial potential”.

That is, the difference in height between the compact versions of the pistol with LV and the Glock-19 pistol is 107 mm versus 128 mm (!), according to experts, insignificant?

Below is their final opinion. Moreover, underlined in blue are claims that are determined only by the ammunition used and are not related to the design of the pistol. The remaining statements are also controversial, and they can be judged, at least only after testing a prototype.


Leaving the reader the right to decide for himself the question of the advantages and objectivity of the expert assessment of Klimov gunsmiths, let's move on to the main goal of the article - we will explain the essence of the principle as simply as possible.

2. Additional explanations
Analysis of a circuit with polygonal guides (LN)


On fig. 1 shows the well-known scheme of the KhRB-88 sports small-caliber pistol with broken guides (there are some conventions and assumptions).



Rice. 1. Gun with broken rails

Despite the fact that the scheme has been tested for decades, when switching to more serious calibers, a number of its serious shortcomings are revealed.


Rice. 2. The appearance of a gap between the frame and the shutter and shock processes during rollback

Let us consider the most realistic variant of the LN, shown in Fig. 1, with rear frame guides made on the butt plate of the handle (Fig. 1 b. and 1 c.).

Firstly, in the scheme with LN, when the shutter rolls back, a gap appears between it and the frame, see Fig. 2. Debris and foreign objects can enter this gap and become pinched, causing jamming and failure.


Rice. 3. The occurrence of misalignment and wedge clearance. Point contact in guides

Secondly, the factor of skew in the guides as the shutter rolls back causes the greatest doubts, see fig. 3, fragment A according to fig. 2 (enlarged).
The dark color here highlights the comb of the guides on the butt plate of the frame, which is included in the groove of the guides on the shutter, indicated in pink.

If we assume that when the shutter is in the forward position, its guides are parallel to the guides of the frame, then when the shutter moves backward, its rear part will rise along the inclined section of the guides, turning at a certain angle, and the parallelism between the guides will be violated.

On fig. 3 it can be seen that the dark rectangle of the ridge of the frame guides at the end of the shutter rollback is noticeably rotated and goes beyond the width of the groove of the guides on the shutter.

The misalignment in the guides makes it necessary to make guide frames either with beveled working surfaces, according to fig. 3, or in the form of a rhombus, "lentil", etc., and short in length. However, the wedge gap that will occur in this case is guaranteed to lead to jamming in conditions of pollution, since the principle of self-cleaning from dirt will be violated.

Also, since significant shock loads will occur in the guides at the time of the shot, in order to compensate for them, it is necessary to increase the section of the guides. And this, in turn, will lead to an increase in the thickness of the shutter, which is at least suboptimal, since it worsens the convenience of concealed carrying of a pistol.

In addition, the survivability of the guides is questionable, since the contact between them as a whole will pinpointrather than over the entire surface.

In the front guides, the picture will be similar.

From the foregoing, the conclusion follows: the geometry of the broken guides is not satisfactory, the reliability of the pistol is not ensured.

An in-depth and lengthy search by the author for constructive solutions to these problems of LN did not give satisfactory results.

3. Scheme with radial guides


From the scheme with broken guides, let's move on to considering radial guides.


Rice. 4. Scheme with radial shutter guides

And here we come to the climax. It suddenly turns out that if we replace the polygonal guides with radial ones, all these problems disappear, as if by magic.

And the mechanics of the reloading process remains the same.

The contact of both the front and rear guides will be carried out over the entire surface, which means that the specific loads in them will decrease, the survivability will increase, shock loads will be eliminated, the gap between the frame and the bolt will disappear during rollback, the principle of self-cleaning from dirt will be observed, which will eliminate the possibility of jamming guides.

As a result, the operation of the guides becomes similar to the rectilinear guides of classic pistols, with the only difference being that the movement occurs along a gentle arc of a circle of large radius with a relatively small movement of the shutter compared to the radius of the arc (45 mm to 1 mm).

In higher mathematics, in engineering calculations, this case is well known, and movement along an arc in this case is equated to movement along a straight line (arc chord) with an accuracy sufficient for engineering calculations (An additional proof of this is the value of the "segment arrow" in paragraph 5 below.)

This statement can be considered theoretically substantiated proof of the validity of the RH principle.

Depending on the design of the designer, various designs of pistols can be created on the basis of the launch vehicle: with separate - front and rear pairs of guides, with the same or different lengths; external or internal coverage; with solid guides for the entire length of the pistol, or with guides from the middle part of the frame to the butt plate - in this respect, the launch vehicles open up new opportunities for creative search and movement forward.

With regard to the manufacturability of PH, radius milling on modern CNC machines does not cause any difficulties and can be performed in one pass and with high accuracy.

4. Approximation of the LN by an arc of radial guides


The optimal, most expedient approximation of broken guides by radial ones is performed according to the scheme according to Fig. 5.


Rice. 5. Optimal approximation of polygonal guides by radial

As you know, three points define a circle.

In our case, three points (marked with a cross in a circle) will be distributed as follows: the first - the front point - coincides, of course, with the front point of the LN on the front end of the frame from above; the second is separated from the first by the distance of the shutter stroke horizontally; the third is the rear point of the broken guides on the butt plate end.

With this scheme, the "segment arrow" (see Fig. 5) has a minimum value of the order of 0,15 ... movement of the front end of the shutter in a straight line.


Rice. 6. Scheme with radial guides. Shutter rollback

5. Scheme with inclined guides (HH)


To complete the picture, we will also include consideration of the principle of inclined guides (hereinafter NN) of the shutter fig. 7. A similar pistol in caliber 9x19 was designed and manufactured by a unique enthusiast from the USA, Randy Neroni, and showed its performance. This has been discussed in previous articles.


Rice. 7. Scheme with inclined shutter guides


Rice. 8. Scheme with inclined guides. The rise of the barrel when the shutter rolls back

In this scheme with HH, two issues are decisive: the constructive solution of the muzzle of the pistol and the supply of a cartridge from the magazine.

In a design variant of the Neroni pistol, the muzzle of the barrel passes through a hole in the front end of the bolt. When the bolt moves back, the barrel rises, as shown in Fig. 8.

Raising the barrel can reduce the reliability of feeding a cartridge into the chamber, which is questionable.

Recall that with radial guides, the reliability of the cartridge feed, on the contrary, increases - an almost direct cartridge feed into the chamber is achieved.

To eliminate the rise of the barrel, a second version of the design of the muzzle of the pistol is possible. The muzzle of the barrel with a short stroke can move longitudinally in the hole of the bracket, vertically mounted in front of the pistol frame, or be mounted on a swinging vertical earring like a Browning earring. The front end of the shutter is open.

The disadvantages of this option are some bulkiness of the front of the pistol, excessive design complexity and a decrease in the length of the return spring, which can cause difficulties in creating shortened versions of the pistol.

Conclusion: with the same achieved advantages of the gun, radial guides are preferable to inclined ones.

6. Заключение


This article analyzes the broken, inclined and radial guides of the gun, the use of which can provide significant advantages over the pistols of the classical scheme, their distinctive features are shown, and the main disadvantages are noted.

The advantages of radial guides over broken and inclined ones are substantiated.

The logical expediency and advantages of the transition from polygonal guides to radial ones by means of LN approximation are disclosed and a scheme of their optimal approximation is given.

I hope theoretical proof consistency of the principle of radial guides.

PS


Additional information and videos are available in previous articles and on page VK author.
96 comments
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  1. +1
    1 June 2023 08: 53
    Everything is fine. Is there at least one in iron to prove the advantages of the new design?
    1. +7
      1 June 2023 09: 00
      I have been corresponding for 7,5 years now, there are interested organizations.

      But, unfortunately, every time attempts to create a prototype of a conceptually new domestic pistol encounter all sorts of obstacles.
      1. +1
        1 June 2023 10: 55
        There is only one obstacle in our country - the enemies of the people and the merchants who joined them, cowards and the rest of the same public. And so far there is no edge to this due to you know what and with whom.
      2. +1
        1 June 2023 13: 12
        Maybe he will turn to Lobaev? Only he can compete with Kalashnikov.
        1. +1
          2 June 2023 15: 42
          Maybe he will turn to Lobaev? Only he can compete with Kalashnikov.

          if Mr. Lobaev could compete with IMZ, then his "guns" would go through a full cycle of state tests and be adopted by the RF Ministry of Defense
          1. -1
            3 June 2023 19: 14
            Quote from: QuestionsNeudobny
            if Mr. Lobaev could compete with IMZ, then his "guns" would go through a full cycle of state tests and be adopted by the RF Ministry of Defense

            but they took it to the FSO and the MTR ... which means that the GRU also have trunks from this company ...
      3. -2
        2 June 2023 09: 27
        Everything is fine. Is there at least one in iron to prove the advantages of the new design?

        I have been corresponding for 7,5 years now, there are interested organizations.

        But, unfortunately, every time attempts to create a prototype of a conceptually new domestic pistol encounter all sorts of obstacles.

        so is there or not?
        1. The comment was deleted.
      4. 0
        13 June 2023 08: 21
        I also thought about broken rails, but the "lens-shaped" rear rail confused me, so while I hit a dead end, the sports pistol stubbornly does not finish painting. And all the options - as they are drawn, they begin to become more and more like "Alien".
        I wish you to think more objectively about moving from the Russian Federation, if you have money, go. I’m stuck here - my savings have flown away during the “covid restrictions”, the salary is small, in general, I simply don’t have anything to go to, and I can’t get a job in the Czech Republic.
        It is extremely difficult to move to the USA now, but there is Ecuador, which has duty-free trade with the USA, and the dollar as a currency, that is, there is no inflation relative to the USA. But getting a residence permit there is difficult without a lawyer, and this is 2-2,5 thousand dollars, which I don’t have. Of course, gun laws are not American, but the ease of obtaining a license for a pistol (a fee of about $ 25, a certificate that the eyes are intact and the head is in place, they will check their own criminal record in Ecuador) hints that it will be easy to legally make a prototype there.
        In the USA, everything is extremely good - anyone can make a weapon and shoot it himself at the shooting range and hunting. In order not to have problems when transferring to other hands, it is worth sending it for testing and branding for strength. BUT! If you have collected a sample with a factory barrel, then you can safely sell it or donate it. For serial production for sale, you need at least some kind of legal entity, at least a PLC or LLC, which are also simply registered.
        In general, having moved to Texas or Oregon, simply measure the Glock or ChZ-75 barrel bought as a spare part by mail, and make a pistol for it, so that it would be easier to send it to the authors of local gun magazines, for the sake of material in the issue.
        The same text is written well, although there is an error in the first figure - the recoil shoulder must be drawn between the axis of the bore and the axis of the shooter's forearm, but the indicated size of the reduction relative to the "bridge" is also important, necessary and understandable when looking at the pistol.
        Quote: Kerensky
        Army pistol does not require concealed carry

        The experience of geoproctologists (from Africa to Southeast Asia) is the opposite - all enemies shoot at the commander, and it is better to hide the gun. Just like binoculars.
        Quote from cpls22
        in theory, everything depends on the development of a special machine that will sharpen these guides

        Or rather, adaptations to a conventional milling machine, two parts of which will need to be processed once on a carousel.
        Quote: Viktor Shershnev
        "Subcompact" Glock 26 has a height of 106 mm.

        This is a capricious pistol, like all compacts. They must be held very tightly, otherwise, when fired, the pistol rotates around the center of mass with such speed that the upper cartridge from the magazine protrudes under its rest inertia, and the rolling shutter sticks into the cartridge half-protruded from the magazine. This delay at the competition is considered "unacceptable" and does not give the right to perform the exercise again.
        This problem has no cure. You need the mass and length of the gun so that it does not spin like that. And about the secrecy of wearing - it depends on the physique and the holster. If there is a waist, then a holster, in which the barrel is vertically behind the belt, and the handle is on the waist on the left, gives good stealth even to a large sample like the Glock-17
        1. +1
          15 June 2023 11: 31
          I remember you were looking at this diagram:



          Of course, I also thought about her, and for a long time. Forgotten Weapons has a video about this gun (george wilson match 45auto)
          But if it is acceptable for a sports pistol, then for a combat one - perhaps "somehow not very" - the thickness of the pistol and the handle itself are deeply questionable ...
          In the version I proposed, a pistol thickness of 24 ... 26 mm is achievable - this is "overall perfection" (chambered for 9x19 "Parabellum"). Plus "overall perfection" in terms of the height of the weapon with improved ergonomics of the handle (!)

          As for "leaving Russia" - I certainly understand that here I will certainly not be able to make money on the idea - it is unlikely that I will even return my own expenses (for 11 years of work "at my own expense").
          But we don't want "our" idea to leak to the West.

          Although in 7 years of correspondence I received 5 negative opinions from TsNIITOCHMASH, and from the Kalashnikov Concern I drank almost the same ... And with other firms - "not very" ...
          But not all options have been fully explored. I'm trying for now.

          It is a pity, of course, that the level of scientific and technical culture, and the level of patriotism have fallen to such an extent in our time ...
          Moreover, among the people, it is not just units that support it, but "units from units." (((
          1. +1
            17 June 2023 11: 52
            Quote: Victor Shershnev
            george wilson match 45 auto

            Thank you I didn’t see this sample on the Internet, I’m very glad that it exists and the short shutter works this way. But with the "Wilson" an error is immediately visible - the weight of the shutter is concentrated at the top, which I strive to get away from, and there is no shutter strike into the load below the trigger guard. And the store is single-row, which is not very good in our time.
            Quote: Victor Shershnev
            I don't want "our" idea to leak to the West.

            On the contrary - this way the gun will become known as "Shershnev", otherwise someone will invent it anyway. A short shutter is already in this "Wilson" and "Alien", a low barrel too. Radius guides were before you, that is, there is nothing to leak, the only question is who will be the first to launch a pistol into a small series in Texas - you or someone else.
            1. 0
              17 June 2023 15: 22
              Nothing. If my last letter "does not work", I will write to Ramzan Kadyrov. Or Lukashenko to Belarus. )) Maybe at least they will support).

              After all, Anatoly Baryshev was thrown in the Czech Republic - with his "automatic - self-loading rifle - grenade launcher" system. And the system was unique in terms of accuracy and damping of recoil!
              1. +1
                19 June 2023 12: 26
                Quote: Victor Shershnev
                the system was unique in terms of accuracy and recoil damping!

                Baryshev was let down by the fact that he stubbornly rushed around with "technology demonstrators", not constructing a model in a form suitable for military use. A grenade launcher with a clip for five grenades ... well, who needs it? To show the accuracy of one queue at the training ground, the "demonstrator" is suitable, but no one will take this into service. And debugging reliability ... this is the eternal sad song "Izhevsk against alloying." Maybe the Baryshev system could work for a long time if alloyed steels, cyanidation of rubbing surfaces, and other "sinister technologies of the Third Reich" were used, but Izhmash officially announced something like "reducing the hardness of weapon parts to save the life of machine tools" about 15 years ago " ..
  2. +2
    1 June 2023 09: 03
    As a layman, I don’t understand anything: for example, in a drawing (or is it a sketch) with radial guides, the center of the circle is indicated very close to the arc itself; the article’s request is also not clear: for whom is it written, why is it posted on VO, or is it just an appeal to the universe?
    1. +6
      1 June 2023 09: 38
      The purpose of this article is to disseminate information about the new principle in a wide circle of the weapons community - among specialists, connoisseurs, weapons manufacturers, and just people who are passionate about and interested in weapons topics.

      Since the principle is new, and even more so the solution is very paradoxical, on my part, as the author, it is necessary to substantiate the proposed concept and explain the essence of the idea.

      Since this online publication is called "Military Review", where else if not here to talk about new trends in the field of weapons, including short-barreled ones. That is why the article is posted on VO.

      As for the radius - it is repeatedly indicated in the text - about 1500 mm. Everything is simple.
      1. 0
        1 June 2023 11: 19
        Quote: Victor Shershnev
        Since this online publication is called "Military Review", where else if not here to talk about new trends in the field of weapons, including short-barreled ones.
        On a practical shooting forum, you would be more likely to find like-minded people: there is discipline with pistols. The police might also be interested. Soldiers with pistols walk, not fight. They do not care how it is arranged, because it just lies in a holster.
        1. +1
          1 June 2023 15: 08
          About the interest of the competent authorities such as the police / police / gendarmerie - it's funny. wink Article 223 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation so that the client picks up from the floor, yes, boss?
          1. +1
            1 June 2023 16: 36
            Quote: hhurik
            Article 223 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation so that the client picks up from the floor, yes, boss?
            Art. 223 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation is about the manufacture of weapons, design is not prohibited. Otherwise, they would have imprisoned all "practical" ones: their "trunks" are often so modified that they are hardly recognizable.
            1. 0
              1 June 2023 17: 46
              And this question needs to be investigated, since the occasion and reason have appeared wink "Designing" is the same preparation for committing, well, if you look at it from the right angle. So a public inspection of the designer's dwelling by the competent authorities suggests itself, do not go to a fortune teller.
      2. +4
        1 June 2023 14: 08
        Quote: Victor Shershnev
        As for the radius - it is repeatedly indicated in the text - about 1500 mm.

        Really curious ! Offhand .. I calculated and estimated the distribution of the recoil force, and the interaction with the hand, during recoil. With this scheme, you can achieve a strong reduction in the bouncing of the gun after a shot. Maybe even almost to zero.-)) Interesting.
      3. -1
        1 June 2023 16: 27
        The purpose of this article is to disseminate information about the new principle

        Where is the new principle?
  3. +10
    1 June 2023 09: 14
    The author, hell knows why he began to explain obvious things, one picture of a shutter with broken guides when closed and open is enough.
    As I understand it, the only claim of the Central Research Institute Tochmash is manufacturability, but this is precisely what has not been sorted out here.
    It’s clear with the advantages - a gross pistol with ergonomics, in fact, sports ... Yes, there is no point in arguing whether it is needed or not needed. And a comparison with a pistol with broken guides ... Point contact is the killing of a weapon, how such a barrel can fire at least 1000 shots - this is clearly unimaginable, there the angle of the guide will be erased in a moment, and the frame will hang like a horse bolt
    1. 0
      1 June 2023 10: 03
      Pts. I'm glad that you understood everything by design without any problems! Thank you!

      But as an author, I am obliged to explain everything in detail according to the main, critical points!

      Indeed, even Mikhail Degtyarev and his specialists from the Kalashnikov magazine, as well as Konstantin Konev (and Maxim Popenker, by the way, and a number of others ...), these subtleties are not clear!

      Therefore, I dwelled in detail on the picture that arises in broken lines, for example.

      This is och. important to explain the transition from LN to RH.

      As for technology. I can find you a video on YouTube with CNC milling, for example. turbine blades ... (or you can see for yourself)) There the complexity of the surface geometry is 10 times higher ...
      And everything is done on the stream without problems !!

      In my case, the manufacture of radial guides is no more difficult than conventional rectilinear ones. I specifically worked on this issue.
      1. +4
        1 June 2023 10: 21
        Quote: Victor Shershnev
        And everything is done on the stream without problems !!

        Well, I’ll tell you right away that they answered you at the Central Research Institute Tochmash - is it more complicated? More difficult. So it's less technical. Until you give them the figures that it costs the same +/- half a lap and does not require the replacement of equipment at existing enterprises, they will send you. It is necessary to take a specific plant and I don’t know how to break through the production of an experimental batch.
        But how ... Here you have a flag in your hands - I'm not a designer, I don't know this, and close. I don’t understand how you can get into production from the outside. Here the pitchfork, in order to prove, it is necessary to produce, but in order to produce, it is necessary that prototypes be ordered to the plant
        1. +1
          1 June 2023 16: 45
          Quote from Bingo
          Until you give them the figures that it costs the same +/- half a lap and does not require the replacement of equipment at existing enterprises, they will send you.
          It will be sent in any case: for the national economy, pistols are prohibited, and for the military, without the initiative of the military (TK), it is unrealistic to promote something, it simply will not work. Suppose, even if they release a batch of pistols, then what to do with it? Hand over to the military? You go to the PZ for acceptance, their first question is "Where is the TK"? Initiative development? Well done! But in our country all actions are strictly prescribed in GOSTs and instructions (for violation they can be imprisoned lightly, the prosecutor's office often shakes defense enterprises), we cannot accept it without technical specifications. Without signing the PZ, nothing will go to the troops. You won’t sell it to stores either - you can’t have short barrels for normal people. Maybe the police and special forces are somehow different, I don’t know there.
      2. Eug
        +2
        1 June 2023 20: 41
        As far as I understand, PH is not even a double curvature surface with subsequent edge processing. The movement of the cutter turns out to be longer, but the possibility of batch processing is preserved and even the number of simultaneously processed parts increases with the same thickness (height) of the package ... but just order somewhere as a civilian part? There are a lot of machining offices now ...
      3. -1
        2 June 2023 22: 07
        I can find you video on youtube with CNC milling, e.g. turbine blade ... (or you can see for yourself)) There surface geometry complexity is 10 times higher...

        Author! Ruin everything again. Well, you don't need a video about the shoulder blade "10.000 times higher"!
        Just give the executable file to the router, and we'll see for ourselves.
        Well, for "7.5 years of correspondence", you can simulate the process ...
        1. 0
          2 June 2023 22: 34
          Explain in more accessible language!
          Give you a 3D model of the shutter and frame?
    2. +2
      1 June 2023 10: 07
      No one wants to get involved - in the absence of particularly pronounced benefits.
      Too large production and the absence of a small manufacturer - it’s easier for them to stamp Makarov than to start releasing something new with a conditional series of 1000 barrels
      1. +2
        1 June 2023 10: 28
        without any particular benefits.


        You necessarily read the section "Advantages of RNZ. Qualities and consumer properties that are superior to analogues available on the market"
        at the end of the article "Russian arc" against stereotypes.
        https://topwar.ru/200955-pistolet-s-radialnymi-napravljajuschimi-russkaja-duga-protiv-stereotipov-innovacii-i-realnost.html

        There, the advantages are described in detail, and comparative photos of the overall ergonomic layout are presented.
        And think at the same time about the minimum achievable thickness of the pistol - 25 ... 26 mm (bolt 23 ... 24 mm), and the presence of self-cocking (!)

        Compare with the characteristics of the best classic pistols!

        I think you will change your mind from the current one about the "lack of distinct benefits" to "absolute superiority" )))
        1. -1
          2 June 2023 09: 40
          Author, do not be offended!
          There, the advantages are described in detail, and comparative photos of the overall ergonomic layout are presented.
          And think at the same time about the minimum achievable thickness of the pistol - 25 ... 26 mm (bolt 23 ... 24 mm), and the presence of self-cocking (!)

          not the thickness of the gun, but the width.
          I'm a designer and I'm not picky. but you lay out the design material, even if it is a sketch, but the definitions must be handled more carefully.
          1. 0
            2 June 2023 13: 02
            People understand "thickness"!
            And I write for people.

            (Although also a constructor)
            1. 0
              2 June 2023 13: 05
              I do apologize! I am NOT a designer! particle is not printed. not the point.
        2. +1
          2 June 2023 22: 34
          "absolute superiority"

          And think at the same time about the minimum achievable thickness of the gun - 25 ... 26 mm

          Author! The minimum thickness of the pistol does not give superiority.
          1. Army pistol does not require concealed carry.
          2. Police pistol - the stopping effect of a bullet. It directly depends on the energy that the bullet carries in itself. And that from the masses. And the mass is from the caliber (well, you can’t make 11.43 in 10 calibers long - it won’t fly).
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. -2
            2 June 2023 23: 24
            Author! The minimum thickness of the pistol does not give superiority.
            1. Army pistol does not require concealed carry.


            And if, for example, scouts, or Smershev agents, or saboteurs in the deep rear of the enemy need a concealed carry pistol? ... Is such a case possible?
            Or someone, when performing a secret mission, a second pistol in a leg holster (or agents under, I apologize for the details, a skirt)?
            After all, I have a "compact" in height - 107 mm . It's like a "subcompact" Glock - 26 - 106 mm!
            And what, do you propose a new gun to fence?

            And a compact pistol with interchangeable cheeks (even with thin, even with thick custom ones, fitted to the arm to zero, or even with anatomical ones)) and with a butt pad covers all these possible options!
            About the subcompact - read below - there is generally a shine!

            And again - why do you look so narrowed. You're looking at the benefits of a pistol in complex , this is "absolute superiority". I said so!
        3. 0
          4 June 2023 13: 52
          Quote: Viktor Shershnev
          without any particular benefits.


          You necessarily read the section "Advantages of RNZ. Qualities and consumer properties that are superior to analogues available on the market"
          at the end of the article "Russian arc" against stereotypes.
          https://topwar.ru/200955-pistolet-s-radialnymi-napravljajuschimi-russkaja-duga-protiv-stereotipov-innovacii-i-realnost.html

          There, the advantages are described in detail, and comparative photos of the overall ergonomic layout are presented.
          And think at the same time about the minimum achievable thickness of the pistol - 25 ... 26 mm (bolt 23 ... 24 mm), and the presence of self-cocking (!)

          Compare with the characteristics of the best classic pistols!

          I think you will change your mind from the current one about the "lack of distinct benefits" to "absolute superiority" )))

          I’m not a weapon designer and I can’t say what’s wrong with you, but I perfectly understand that there is no particular difficulty in your pistol.
          There are 1600 large arms companies in the USA, small workshops generally don’t know how many - it takes them 5 minutes to tear off your idea. And then patent it with a different radius, description, and bend ...
          Moreover, they can release a trial batch of at least 100 barrels
          And they sculpt variations of the M1911, ChZ75, Glock and Beretta
      2. +3
        1 June 2023 12: 23
        In my opinion, there are many reasons for rejection, and one of the main ones is the competitiveness of the design and the unwillingness to produce a competitor. And if you do it yourself, you will have to share money and fame. The technical problems of production are far-fetched. Here, even without CNC, you can handle it.
    3. 0
      1 June 2023 11: 11
      manufacturability, but it’s just that it’s not sorted out here
      - in theory, everything depends on the development of a special machine that will sharpen these guides. Their very radius suggests a solution, such as a carousel-type machine, with the possibility of attaching several workpieces at once.
      1. +1
        1 June 2023 11: 54
        Why is it so difficult

        An ordinary CNC will write you at least in Arabic script. For example:
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CJ7k8AXsAY

        And another laser from above ....
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uI2PgnoeAw

        In order not to waste time - see the result immediately at the end of the videos.

        There are so many videos on the internet! ...)))
    4. The comment was deleted.
    5. +4
      1 June 2023 11: 28
      Quote from Bingo
      manufacturability, but that's just it's not dismantled here.

      Everything is taken apart for us. About manufacturability (from the open spaces of tyrnet):
      Happiness and pride of a young engineer April 25, 2023

      I noticed that despite approximately the same intelligence (the young are smarter, of course, but the old people are much more erudite and experienced), specialists of different levels think significantly differently.

      Novice Engineer - Guided only by technical considerations.

      More experienced - technical and economic.

      Gurus are also technological.

      Chief - takes into account the administrative and bureaucratic aspects.

      Big boss - guided only by administrative and bureaucratic considerations.

      An effective manager only thinks about personal gain.

      As a result, mutual misunderstanding arises, through a step - almost complete. Moreover, all specialists, both from top to bottom and from bottom to top, consider each other to be idiots. And the results of such activities can take the most perverse forms. Especially, taking into account the total lies and fraud, in part of which "effective" unsurpassed masters (in fact, they only know how to do this).

      For example, a new rocket gearbox is needed, and a young engineer is instructed to create the hull:

      Having studied the question, he quite logically develops a structure from a composite material. It turns out to be light, durable and meets all the requirements. Well, so it seems to him.

      His immediate supervisor is an experienced engineer, having studied the price of composite materials, he sighs heavily and decides that the body still needs to be made of titanium by welding.

      The chief designer, as the wisest, recalling his own previous experience, decides: "Well, he nafig, this hemorrhoid with titanium welded seams ... Do it by milling!"

      The chief, having looked at the drawing, thinks that there is no one to work with titanium for a long time and there is nothing, the only experienced milling machine operator died last year, the only suitable machine was ditched by Tajik guest workers, and a new one will either be bought or not, and when? And decisively changes the material to D16.

      The big boss takes the drawing and sees "D16", and this is non-ferrous metal, which, according to the directive of the Corporation, has been ordered to save money. Reflects: "But we have steel in the warehouse - heaps!" - and decisively writes - "St3"!

      Here an effective manager is interested in the progress of work and strictly asks the big boss:

      - Well, why do you need steel here? I sold it all to the Chinese, last year ...

      - No, no, sir. Not all of it, there is not much left at the 53rd warehouse, sir!

      - Your mother! Sell ​​immediately! And sell the warehouse too! Money for me ... Yes, and what do we have there in bulk, but the Chinese don't buy?

      - There is cast iron. By the way, our foundry is idle ...

      - Whoa! You know how to think with your head, sometimes!

      The next day, the head of the Corporation reports to the President of the country: “In order to import substitution, attract investment and introduce innovations, using exclusively domestic nanotechnologies, we are developing a new gearbox for a rocket that has no analogues in world practice!”

      President: "Doesn't it have any analogues?"

      Head of the Corporation: “Exactly! Nobody has such a thing. And it never will! "

      Right there, a friendly chorus of corrupt and ideological bloggers-sycophants picks up in different voices: "It has no analogues!" - "In world practice!" - "The whole world is in dust!" - "But then!"

      A young engineer who has barely regained consciousness after learning that the new gearbox for a space rocket will be in a cast iron housing, reads about his own scientific achievements in the tape and quietly sobs under the table with happiness and pride in his Great Motherland! (WITH)
  4. 0
    1 June 2023 12: 17
    The author does not realize one insurmountable fact - any weapon is created for specific tasks. And if the proposed sample in terms of performing this task does not provide cardinal advantages over mass-produced ones, then this sample will remain at the stage, at best, of a prototype.
    In this case, the proposed pistol does not promise any revolutionary advantages, therefore, taking into account Russian reality, it will never be manufactured.
    In the USA, the author of the idea could easily make a prototype and test it, in case of a positive result, interest one of the many manufacturers.
    In Russia, there is no chance for such a turnaround.
    1. +3
      1 June 2023 13: 05
      I will give you one case.
      Almost two years ago, on Facebook in the Shooting Club group, one "well, oh-oh-very cool expert" from the very beginning, I began to diligently literally “poured mud” on this idea in the comments under my video.

      And then - on the 12th comment in the discussion ( !!! ) suddenly asks Maxim Popenker (by the way, he was also invited, and also diligently "watering" ...):
      "By the way, I still don't understand, why is there something radial?"
      I repeat once again - on the 12th comment in the discussion!

      (Moreover, on the video there is a big red arrow with the caption, and even blinking, points to the radial guides in two places of the video.)
      And this man, by the way, is a tough shooter, everything should be all right with his eyesight?!...
      ........................................................

      Here you are authoritatively and categorically declaring:

      In this case, the proposed gun does not promise any revolutionary advantages, therefore, taking into account Russian reality, it will never be made.


      I would like to ask - did you read the article carefully at all?
      Well, for example:

      But the obvious advantages of applying the PH principle, even such as reducing the height of weapons 20 mm or more when ensuring a full grip of the handle with all fingers of the hand (!); recoil arm 0 mm и "sporty" ergonomicsand self-cocking USM striker type и minimum achievable weapon thickness 25...26 mm with gate thickness 23...24 mm – TSNIITOCHMASH does not consider them “of interest” and “with commercial potential”.

      That is, the difference in height between the compact versions of the pistol with LV and the Glock-19 pistol is 107 mm vs. 128 mm (!), according to experts, insignificant?


      Did you read the section about benefits in my previous article?!

      So. A serious person, before writing such a thing, first carefully reads, thinks and understands the issue!...
      And if you are able to appreciate such an improvement in performance, it is better not to mislead others.

      Vaughn - pistol "Alien" with a low recoil shoulder - became world sensation!
      1. +3
        1 June 2023 14: 06
        I would like to ask - did you read the article carefully at all?

        And I want to ask - did you read my comment? Once again I will repeat.
        All your arguments about the "revolutionary nature" of the system and the "world sensation" are purely theoretical. In such matters, no one anywhere trusts "gentlemen's word". Only practical tests can confirm or refute them. To do this, you need to make a prototype. To do this, in turn, you need to interest the manufacturer. In countries where the arms market is developed and there are many participants in this market, this option is possible. In Russia, where there is no such market and is not expected and the pistol is produced for highly specialized tasks, your "wunderwaffe" has no chance in principle, since the existing samples suit everyone.
        Am I explaining clearly? Or do you want to say that your pistol will hit targets "day and night, in any weather" without the participation of the shooter?
        1. +2
          1 June 2023 16: 30
          Yes, of course, the lack of a short barrel market in Russia is the Main Trouble!

          You speak:

          In Russia, where there is no such market and is not expected, and the pistol is produced for highly specialized tasks


          When studying the principle and working on the layout in the 3D model format, in the first place I kept in front of me the classic definition of a pistol - "compact melee weapon".
          I emphasize the word "compact".

          That is, I strove to achieve "dimensional perfection" (!)
          As a result - thinner than 24 ... 26 mm with a shutter thickness of 23 ... 24 mm under the caliber 9x19 parabellum to make a pistol impossible (!!)
          (The dimensions of the cartridge determine the thickness of the magazine, plus a reasonable thickness of the frame walls - we get the minimum thickness.
          Also for the thickness of the shutter.)

          And if so, then from "mine", smallest possible pistol you can make a gun any task.
          Or even convert for any specific task!

          After all, you can make a big one out of a small pistol. On the other hand, no.)

          The most interesting gun with radial guides in the class "subcompact"(!).
          "Subcompact" Glock 26 has a height of 106 mm.
          In "my" version, the height of the "subcompact" will be of the order 88 mm (!!)

          And with the help of elongated magicians with such attachments as in the photo, it can be consistently turned into a "compact" (height 107 mm!) And practically into an "army version" or in an enemy way - "duty".


          That is, having "sub" we get "three in one".

          And let's not forget that the pistol is extremely flat in thickness - with such dimensions it is the best for concealed carry. 88 mm is a "world record" both jokingly and seriously)))
          But with interchangeable pads, we can, if necessary, change the ergonomics of the handle.
    2. +3
      1 June 2023 13: 29
      Quote from Frettaskyrandi
      The author does not realize one insurmountable fact - any weapon is created for specific tasks. And if the proposed sample in terms of performing this task does not provide cardinal advantages over mass-produced ones, then this sample will remain at the stage, at best, of a prototype.
      In this case, the proposed pistol does not promise any revolutionary advantages, therefore, taking into account Russian reality, it will never be manufactured.
      In the USA, the author of the idea could easily make a prototype and test it, in case of a positive result, interest one of the many manufacturers.
      In Russia, there is no chance for such a turnaround.

      I agree with you ... any product needs a market ... in our country, the civilian arms market against the background of the American one, for example + - is dead, especially the short-barreled ... to whom the manufacturer will offer this product? ... MO, FSB, police + - there is enough PM for most tasks , and where there is not enough, they will buy a small batch of Glocks or someone else (well, before the SVO it was like that) ... to master mass production, you need an order for tens of thousands of pieces, and this is the rearmament of the police or the Ministry of Defense ... there are no such plans
    3. 0
      1 June 2023 18: 04
      And this is how I think: any more or less revolutionary idea has no market. And for it to appear, this idea needs to be "babied". What market and what specific tasks did the Wright brothers' aircraft have?
      This, of course, is not such a revolutionary idea, but in order to understand its prospects, you need to evaluate working samples.
      And in the history of small arms, as I understand it, there are many examples when authors - designers had to try out some successful solutions at their own expense and almost illegally (if it was a gunsmith designer).
      Maybe the author should try to contact the designers - gunsmiths?
  5. +1
    1 June 2023 14: 13
    The author needs to submit an article for printing in "Young Technician" ...
    The scheme with inclined components is solved by fixing the barrel with a frame and a cutout for rollback.
    All these drawings are cool, of course, but here we need the physics of the process. There is logic, but the reliability of the concept is simply doubtful.
  6. +2
    1 June 2023 15: 55
    Interesting design..
    It's harder than you think to create working configurations.
    its all about trade off's
    1. +2
      1 June 2023 17: 16
      Thanks for your feedback!
      I have been working on this principle for almost 11 years.
      And I know very well how difficult it is to develop a conceptually new pistol! ))
      After all, I also have a completely new locking mechanism, and an SA + DA striker mechanism (!) And something else new ...
  7. +5
    1 June 2023 16: 40
    I wish you to make this gun. And let practice show whether he is good or bad.
    But I want it to be good.
    1. +3
      1 June 2023 17: 06
      Thanks for your support!
      I hope that these publications will nevertheless draw attention to this important issue. That information reaches the right people.
      After all, there is an opportunity to finally surpass the West and bring our domestic short barrel to its rightful place in the world. ))
      (I never thought that we are worse than Western gunsmiths. Quite the contrary!)
  8. +3
    1 June 2023 19: 43
    I liked the article, and not even the article itself, but the conviction and indifference of the author. The idea is not new, and this is indicated in the answer, but no one doubts that a gun with such guides will shoot. Reducing the height is possible in some cases and necessary, but this is only in some cases, and small-sized weapons in the world are a dime a dozen. high accuracy and reliability. In my unenlightened opinion, the game is not worth the candle, but nevertheless I wish the author success.
    1. -2
      1 June 2023 22: 36
      Recently, many novelties have appeared in pistols, for example, in the field of safety of use, such as cocking, automatic fuses, etc., the use of polymers, and so on.
      The author chews on the idea of ​​the beginning of the last century. No wonder it is skeptical.
    2. 0
      2 June 2023 09: 22
      Quote: Uncle_Misha
      In my unenlightened opinion, the game is not worth the candle

      If it were so, they would not go out of their way, achieving millimeters and milligrams of advantage. And I’m not talking about sports pistols, at least look at how they shoot there - to the point that the jackets and shoes are special, that is, the gain is not even in millimeters, but in microns, but also in military weapons - a little easier - already a plus .
      And here the author, for example, has another plus sign offhand. Curvilinear movement means the recoil momentum goes more to friction, frames and guides, the frame rolls like a wheel on a hill, that is, the momentum is stretched, that is, the recoil is reduced, that is, it bounces less. This. Certainly. you can calculate, but without practice it's not a plus, but a theoretical plus. But if so - only for this plus, the scheme should already be allowed at least into an experimental batch, this is a big plus, more than, for example, a composite frame, yeah
      1. +1
        2 June 2023 13: 05
        If it were so, they would not go out of their way, achieving millimeters and milligrams of advantage. And I’m not talking about sports pistols, at least look at how they shoot there - to the point that the jackets and shoes are special, that is, the gain is not even in millimeters, but in microns, but also in military weapons - a little easier - already a plus .


        Thank you for these words! Pts. exactly what you said!!

        (There are NO small things in the gun AT ALL - I was convinced of this a thousand times.)
  9. +2
    1 June 2023 21: 39
    The "ultimate truth" - that is, TSNIITOCHMASH - has become smaller. In general, they gave me a negative conclusion even without materials - I was waiting for instructions to whom to send them, eight (!) People signed under common truths - four D.T.N. and so many candidates. Fantastic! But their "Boa constrictor" is something ... What kind of commercial perspective can we talk about?
    1. 0
      2 June 2023 13: 10
      It's sad to say this, but you're right!
      They had a big scandal there - the former gene. director Albert Bakov stole and sold the property of TSNIITOCHMASH for hundreds of millions !!!...
  10. JPD
    0
    1 June 2023 21: 49
    The idea of ​​the campaign is identical to that implemented in the Finnish Jatimatic ... they made a small batch ... but it didn’t work, there was also a clone from NORINKO.
    1. 0
      2 June 2023 13: 14
      So this is what we are talking about - inclined guides are not in vain given.
      But comparing a pistol and a PP, and even drawing conclusions from this that it "will not take off" is incorrect ...
      Well, how to "fold a cow with a horse"))
  11. +1
    1 June 2023 22: 30
    No wonder they refused.
    A pistol according to this scheme is clearly more technologically complex and less reliable than according to the classical scheme.
    Auto did not take into account that its radial guides will work under load, unlike the classical scheme.
    And this means - 1. The accuracy of the processing of the guides must be significantly increased, which increases the cost of the design.
    2. The reliability of operation will be much lower, since the ingress of dirt between the frame and the shutter will lead to jamming of the shutter, unlike the classical scheme, where this part works without load.
    3. The design of the interaction of the shutter with the barrel in a typical scheme of operation of automation with a short barrel stroke will become more complicated.
    4.
    the minimum achievable thickness of the weapon is 25 ... 26 mm with a shutter thickness of 23 ... 24 mm - TSNIITOCHMASH does not consider it “of interest” and “with commercial potential”

    This is logical. This is achievable with a pistol of conventional design.
    For example, Glock 43 - the thickness of the shutter is 22 mm, along the handle - 28.
    https://us.glock.com/en/pistols/g43
    The thickness of the handle is determined by the convenience of the grip and the type of magazine used - one or two rows.
    If necessary, it will be thin, like Ruger LC9, for example, 23 mm.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruger_LC9
    Walter PPS - 25 mm thick, 1 inch.
    https://waltherarms.com/pps-m2
    Given the fact that no real, and not far-fetched, advantages are seen for most applications of the pistol, it is not surprising that they do not want to take it.
    1. -1
      2 June 2023 08: 03
      Do you even understand what you are writing?
      Do you want to "sell a chicken under the guise of a peacock"?
      Are you pushing pistols with a single-row magazine here, without even understanding elementarily that we are talking about double-row ones?
      (and I have double-row exit of cartridges (!!) as opposed to single row - do you need to explain the difference?)

      A pistol according to this scheme is clearly more technologically complex and less reliable than according to the classical scheme.
      Auto did not take into account that its radial guides would work under load in contrast to the classical scheme.
      And that means 1. The accuracy of processing the guides must be significantly increased, which increases the cost of the design.
      2. The reliability of work will be much lower, since the ingress of dirt between the frame and the shutter will lead to jamming of the shutter, unlike the classical scheme, where this part works without load.
      3. Get harder bolt-to-barrel interaction design in a typical scheme of operation of automation with a short stroke of the barrel.


      But that's all It's impossible to explain in your right mind!

      Would you rather" about the latest production of "Princess Turandot" on the stage of Milan's "La Scala" ...
      Or there ... "about the correspondence between Engels and Kautsky."

      This is clearly not your topic! You only knock people down, you yourself "not a belmes", God forgive me! ...

      Such an "expert" will slander any advanced idea!
      We will not get out of the "Middle Ages" ...
      1. +1
        2 June 2023 12: 48
        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_Sauer_P365

        Here you are, super "thin" subcompact, with TWO in-line magazines. But most importantly: a REAL gun, not a figment of the imagination.
        By the way, a little lower, a great idea for the author: get a job in one of the arms factories that so unfairly refuse him, and in practice show arrogant fools and hardened ignoramuses - who is really a GENIUS here !!!
        (Not sarcasm).
  12. +1
    1 June 2023 23: 06
    The only chance for an author to see his creation in hardware is to produce it in the USA. After that, you can already test and try to go somewhere with the test results. In Russia, there are no such chances.
    1. -2
      2 June 2023 09: 25
      The only chance for an author to see his creation in hardware is to produce it in the USA. After that, you can already test and try to go somewhere with the test results. In Russia, there are no such chances.

      a loud statement and you can somehow substantiate it?
    2. 0
      2 June 2023 12: 53
      Two years ago, when I received refusals from everywhere except for the Kovrov "Plant named after Degtyarev" three or four times, I decided to "appeal to the people." And in general, to reveal the idea, so that at least "it does not disappear for humanity."

      I made a video in English (so that everyone could understand)) and posted it incl. on Facebook.

      So in one international arms community it turned out very good. heated discussion - together with Randy Neroni, by the way! )). All the ideas - both mine and his - Pts, LIKE IT! )))

      By the way, then in three days I got 85 likes under the video.
      And oh. favorable comments.

      (And then in two years - Total 15 likes! )))))))
      With 150 thousand readings! ... Well, this is already from my native Russia - mother, from her mysterious Russian soul to use me, the wretched ... Thank you for supporting!)


      So I mean, many Americans, both jokingly and seriously, called to them, and even those who worked in weapons. production offered assistance in the manufacture of parts ??!!

      I was amazed at how quickly they catch on - an unimaginably enterprising people!

      Alas, abs. not what we ... (((
      1. -1
        2 June 2023 13: 07
        you do not confuse discussion in the professional community and discussions on forums and so on.
  13. -1
    2 June 2023 09: 24
    "It was smooth on paper..."
    Dear Author, is there a material prototype? the idea may be great, but as soon as we turn to full-scale tests, everything collapses with terrible force. but sometimes the practical result exceeds the preliminary calculations.
    1. 0
      2 June 2023 13: 21
      No. There is no prototype. This is what we are talking about.
      In the article I talk about this, quote:

      But, unfortunately, every time attempts to create a prototype of a conceptually new domestic pistol encounter all sorts of obstacles.


      That is the problem !
      1. 0
        2 June 2023 15: 40
        That is the problem !

        what, you can’t even print in plastic on a 3D printer? without a USM barrel, so as not to "crouch"
  14. 0
    2 June 2023 09: 36
    Author, you do not be offended, but there are two BUT.
    1. if you can't "get through" (get through) to production - maybe you should consider working there, since it's yours?
    2. Do you have a weapons engineering education? skills of calculations of physical processes, modeling?
  15. 0
    2 June 2023 09: 48
    even the Kalashnikov concern, with its knowledge base, material and production base, and a colossal staff of specialists, even released the AK-12, which received a lot of complaints during practical use on a theater of operations, but it would seem that they can create an assault rifle without complaints. the author does not want to perceive someone else's experience, continuing to claim that no one understands.
    maybe you should listen to the experts?
    Well, if you don't like TsNIITOCHMASH's answer, send your idea to the PLA! somewhere else.
    1. 0
      4 June 2023 22: 59
      If we compare the author’s scheme in Fig. 6 (circular arc) and the American scheme in Fig. 7 (oblique straight line), both schemes should have similar characteristics. The author points to a smaller recoil shoulder when the shutter moves along the arc in Fig. 4, this is probably the only advantage of his scheme , but the scheme of Fig. 7 is simpler to manufacture.
      It would be nice if the author nevertheless marks the centers of mass of the shutter and the pistol on his diagrams, and ideally also draws diagrams of the action of forces on the diagrams
      1. -1
        7 June 2023 18: 04
        In the article, I pointed out the problems of a gun with inclined guides (NN) for a reason. They are in the design solution of the muzzle.

        And as a result, a pistol with a launch vehicle turns out to be more profitable - the muzzle of the barrel does not move vertically.
        And milling the PH along the radius is an abs problem. imaginary (!), and exists only for people who are not familiar with production.

        The center of mass of the shutter, see fig. 1 in the previous article. And the pistol as a whole - beyond the middle of the cn. hook with a full magazine (which is ideal for balancing).
  16. 0
    5 June 2023 09: 39
    But didn’t you just think to bring the General Staff to perfection?
    1. -1
      7 June 2023 17: 49
      I have exceptional respect for the GSh-18.
      It has a number (and considerable) fresh, original, - own (!)and not borrowed ideas!

      And as a result, the gun is more than 100 grams lighter than Glock!
      This is och. seriously!
      Although many compatriots who are not versed in the design of pistols and, alas, humiliatingly reproach before the West, are very fond of watering it with slop for this (and purely for manufacturing flaws) ...

      But even if the GSh is brought to perfection, it will not be able to surpass a pistol with radial guides in terms of the totality of characteristics.
      Moreover, the problem of the lack of self-cocking on it don't decide(!).
      A self-platoon is needed!
  17. -1
    16 June 2023 11: 11
    The task is solved simply and elementarily - by placing a return spring over the barrel. So it was in the 1900 Browning, reincarnated in the Laugo Arms Alien in which the recoil shoulder is even lower. But why? Nobody cares about this other than sports. You can make radius guides on the CNC, but how much will it cost at the end? Obviously more expensive than direct guides.
    And yet, I already pointed out to the authors - an obvious cant in the design with the supply of cartridges. If the magazine is rebuilt, then the shutter mirror will be stuck into the magazine, if the magazine is 2-row without rebuilding, then the shutter mirror will be stuck into the 2nd cartridge. In the video on YouTube, it can be seen that the cartridge stands on the feed line coaxially with the bore, which is technically impossible. If you lower the cartridge supply line lower (raise the barrel higher), then the recoil arm increases. In the same Alien, the task of feeding a cartridge, which at the time of filing is located below the barrel, was solved by making the shutter stepped, and the trigger was placed above the barrel axis.
    And why does the author need all this? In the name of what? Write the name of the author in history along with Browning, Maxim and Kalashnikov? Funny. The design is raw, undeveloped, in the presented form, unworkable.

    PS I do not know how to insert pictures into posts. Support your arguments with pictures.
    1. -1
      16 June 2023 20: 04
      "The problem is solved simple and elementary - by placing a return spring over the barrel.

      A recoil spring above the barrel will increase the headroom by 10mm+. (!!)
      Why is this necessary? Gun - compact melee weapon!
      I have a spring barrel typeShe doesn't take up space.
      And nothing changes in the recoil shoulder!
      Well, how do you reduce the recoil arm to 0 mm with a spring from above, like mine ??

      And here is that RN allow you to raise the butt plate higher - this allows you to reduce the recoil shoulder. It turns out the "sports ergonomics" of the handle (!).
      And in addition, this allows you to reduce the overall height by as much as 20 mm (and for a pistol it is "cosmically a lot"! )

      Next.
      “It is possible to make radius guides on the CNC, but how much will it cost at the end?”


      Answer: it will not be more expensive for me, and possibly cheaper. Question constructively thoroughly thought out! (and I have talked about this many times in articles).

      Your next quote:
      “And yet, I already pointed out to the authors - an obvious cant in the design with the supply of cartridges. If the magazine is rebuilt, then the shutter mirror will be stuck into the magazine, if the magazine is 2-row without rebuilding, then the shutter mirror will be stuck into the 2nd cartridge.


      Answer: Firstly, I have a store with a two-row exit. Why - I hope you know. It's in repeatedly (!!) higher reliability in the event of contamination!
      And this is purely ours, still a Soviet tradition, from the APS - Stechkin.
      Stores with rebuilding in one row i absolutely I do not recognize - they are for me "does not exist"!
      Westerners use them (and our Lebedev copied to shame), because they are too lazy to think - it’s different with the layout big problems!
      Second:
      In the previous article “A gun with radial guides. "Russian arc" against stereotypes. (and in the previous ones, if you read) I specifically explained this issue, a quote from this article:

      “6. High cartridge feed into the chamber. Due to the movement of the ramming lug of the bolt along an arc with some rise upwards, an almost direct supply of the cartridge from the magazine to the chamber is achieved, since the bottom of the upper cartridge in the magazine can be positioned 2 ... 3 mm higher no risk of double feeding, and the front end of the cartridge has an upward slope towards the chamber. The reliability of sending cartridges with any types of bullets increases.


      In fact, even more than 3 mm (!) is achievable there.

      Next.
      “And why does the author need all this? In the name of what? Write the name of the author in history along with Browning, Maxim and Kalashnikov? Funny.»


      It seems that you are more worried about my “glory” (more precisely, so that it does not exist)) than me. Thank you!
      Fame doesn't bother me.

      I am a graduate of "Voenmekh" in 1988. My father also graduated from Voenmekh in 1957 with a degree in design of automatic small arms.
      Serious people who went through the war taught us at Voenmekh patriotism national defense industry. And I believe that our Russian weapons should be the best in the world. This is my conviction!

      And I can’t, that is, “without pain,” watch our short-barrel dragged somewhere in the tail, after the Czech Republic with Slovakia, Croatia, Turkey ... It’s a shame for the current pistols, except for the General Staff.

      And if I accidentally came up with such an idea that allows me to put forward Russian pistols in first place in the world I try my best to promote it.
      It's been 7,5 years of correspondence...

      And further:
      "The design is crude, undeveloped, in the presented form, inoperable."


      But please justify this with arguments!
      I have been working on the idea for 11 years (although I have been fond of studying weapons since childhood). And you - a maximum of one day ... And already rushing like that heavy accusations!
      At the same time, without even delving into the content of the articles.

      And by 80%, many who read your comment will believe just for youand not me!

      PS To insert pictures, click on the 4th icon at the top of the answer field.
      1. 0
        17 June 2023 18: 56
        A recoil spring above the barrel will increase the headroom by 10mm+. (!!)
        For some reason, Aliena did not increase this size, but it has a spring on top.

        “6. High cartridge feed into the chamber. Due to the movement of the ramming lug of the bolt along an arc with some rise upwards, an almost direct supply of the cartridge from the magazine to the chamber is achieved, since the bottom of the upper cartridge in the magazine can be positioned 2 ... 3 mm higher without the risk of double feed, and the front end of the cartridge has an inclination up to the chamber. The reliability of sending cartridges with any types of bullets increases.



        The magazine is 2-row and the upper cartridge miraculously pops up on a direct feed, while changing its angle relative to the second cartridge. In a 2-row magazine, the rows always go with 50% overlap of each other, regardless of whether the shutter moves in a straight line, in an arc or something else.
        And here is how it looks in the APS, there are no questions, everything is clear:


        But please justify this with arguments!
        I have been working on the idea for 11 years (although I have been fond of studying weapons since childhood). And you - a maximum of one day ... And already throwing such grave accusations!
        At the same time, without even delving into the content of the articles.


        At the moment - the main argument with a high cartridge feed - this will not work, the upper cartridge is supported by the lower one, the overlap is 50%, with a case bottom diameter of 10mm - the bolt catches the upper cartridge with a maximum of 5 mm, and the bolt movement trajectory has nothing to do with it.

        I have a barrel type spring - it does not take up space.

        And one more thing - a spring around the barrel, well, one end rests on the shutter casing, and where is the other? judging by the animation - into the chamber of the barrel, while the mechanics of automation - recoil with a short movement of the barrel, which means there must be another spring somewhere - which moves the barrel / Are there too many return springs? And where is this second spring?

        For 11 years, it would be possible to make drawings for a long time, and sensible animation, without pop-up cartridges. A drawing of a section of a weapon in the plane of the rear wall of the magazine at the moment the top cartridge was captured by the bolt would easily remove the question.

        I studied your design for more than one day, at least I read articles and watched YouTube.

        our short barrel drags somewhere in the tail
        - this is because no one really needs it, neither the Ministry of Internal Affairs nor the military, and special forces can be armed with imported ones or with the same GSh-18. Oh, yes, one more joint - I’ll try to cock the same GSh with a wet hand or a slippery hand - not everyone will succeed. It turns out that you can only reload the front part, but in this case, the ejection window of the shells is blocked by the hand and the misfire cartridge by hand can bounce off the hand and fall back into the weapon. Do we need it? In the heat of battle, such a delay is certain death.

        Now, in the days of 3D printers, you can model this device in a week or two, and all questions would disappear by themselves.
        1. 0
          18 June 2023 08: 02
          For some reason, Aliena did not increase this size, but it has a spring on top.





          So much for Browning1900 and Alien.
          Do you need to explain the obvious things that springs above the barrel increase the overall height ?!

          At the moment - the main argument with a high cartridge feed - this will not work, the upper cartridge is supported by the lower one, the overlap is 50%, with a case bottom diameter of 10mm - the bolt catches the upper cartridge with a maximum of 5 mm, and shutter trajectory has nothing to do with it.


          I repeat once again - when moving back, the forwarding protrusion of the shutter at the same time rises up to 3 mm due to its movement along the arc of the guides. Therefore, the bottom of the next sent cartridge can be raised by this amount no risk of "double feeding" - engagement of the underlying cartridge. An almost direct supply of a cartridge from the magazine to the chamber is achieved, which increases the reliability of both the supply of the cartridge and the pistol as a whole.
          Everything is extremely obvious! How can you not understand this?

          so somewhere there must be another spring - which moves the barrel / Are there too many return springs? And where is this second spring?
          For 11 years, it would be possible to make drawings for a long time, and sensible animation, without pop-up cartridges. A drawing of a section of a weapon in the plane of the rear wall of the magazine at the moment the top cartridge was captured by the bolt would easily remove the question.


          That is, you suggest that I post here all my drawings, detailed (not schematic) animation, developments, know-how, calculations and a detailed description?! Yes, even with a similar claim?
          Did you think twice before posting something like this?!

          You here seem to be struggling to prove that the author is a "complete idiot", eh, quote:

          "The design is crude, undeveloped, in the presented form, inoperable."


          Coffin and trample in the dirt in the eyes of people a unique idea that can serve the glory and authority of domestic weapons, and at the same time in elementary things can't figure it out!

          If these are experts we will solve issues (and they decide!) we, Russia, will definitely always at the very bottom!
          1. 0
            18 June 2023 12: 56
            That is, you suggest that I post here all my drawings, detailed (not schematic) animation, developments, know-how, calculations and a detailed description?! Yes, even with a similar claim?
            Did you think twice before posting something like this?!


            Yes, that's right - no one needs a cat in a poke, and slipping a "schematic animation", so to speak, containing implausible movements of parts relative to each other, is disrespectful to viewers and readers, donate us for fools? For 11 years it would be possible to issue patents for all know-how. Here, for example, Aleksey Pshemetsky, developed the machine, made it, shot a detailed video, everything is clear and understandable. Here, guess, it seems that everything should work, but you see the author's know-how, 11 years of know-how. Watch his video and learn how to present your ideas.

            So much for Browning1900 and Alien.
            Do you need to explain the obvious things that the springs above the barrel increase the overall height ?!

            Am I the only one who sees that Aliena has such a height due to the upper location of the trigger, and not because of the return spring?

            "I repeat once again - when moving back, the ramming lug of the bolt simultaneously rises up to 3 mm due to its movement along the arc of the guides. Therefore, the bottom of the next rammed cartridge can be raised by this amount without the risk of "double feed" - engagement of the underlying cartridge. Almost achieved direct supply of a cartridge from the magazine to the chamber, which increases the reliability of both the supply of the cartridge and the pistol as a whole.
            Everything is extremely obvious! How can you not understand it?"
            Not a question - we add another 3 mm to the height relative to the APS store, and you write about 10 mm. 3mm is far from a straight feed.

            unique idea
            There is no uniqueness here. Originality - yes, uniqueness does not even smell.

            This USM has not yet been considered, but it is not clear how it works, there is one drummer in the video and that's it. In the video with the cocking of the drummer, it’s generally a mess - the drummer moves backward faster than the shutter, this is only possible if there is a cocking lever. And judging by the video - it whispered on the shutter - did they borrow the idea and Luger?
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  18. 0
    18 June 2023 16: 14
    In continuation of the post about USM:
    USM state before the shot


    ECV status during shot:


    The state of the trigger after the shot, but here there are already miracles and magic, the sleeve has not yet come out, and the trigger is already fully cocked:


    Is this also unique know-how?
    1. 0
      18 June 2023 16: 25
      You think that you are a cool specialist! And here you want to show the stunning brilliance of your intellect in front of everyone.
      Hype, as they say now. To promote at "someone else's expense" ...
      But as I see it, you don’t understand even the simplest things and elementary truths!
      Well, it takes a whole lecture to explain, and even then I'm not sure of the effect.
      You still need to learn, and you are trying to teach others.
      Yes, it seems, according to your words - also "foreign glory" does not give rest ... ((
      There is a French saying: "It makes no sense to show the cat gold!"
      Do something else. Pistols are not yours!
      1. 0
        19 June 2023 10: 08
        Well, here is the iron argument - "himself" to my well-founded arguments. In addition to your promises how cool and cool everything is "analogue" and so on, so on - there is no intelligible answer to well-founded questions.

        Here's another problem - your shutter goes up while pulling back from the frame, i.e. the frame beats down, which is equivalent to a blow from above on an outstretched arm. According to rough estimates, in the case of using a 9x18PM cartridge and a free shutter, the force of such an impact will be approximately 2,5 kg. We treat one - we cripple another? Or is that also unique.
  19. 0
    19 June 2023 10: 45
    On Zen there is an article by a certain Viktor Shershnev, where the quote is:
    Nevertheless, the result achieved by Neroni indirectly proves that since the "inclined" ones work, the radial ones will work too!
    And here is the result of the work, a screenshot of the shooting:

    The delay in the form of not removing the cartridge case is clearly visible, the cartridge case blocks the supply of the next cartridge and the shutter closes, sending the spent cartridge case:


    I follow your logic - a pistol with radials will behave in exactly the same way. Moreover, having driven the cartridge case into the cartridge chamber, when reloading by the front of the casing, the cartridge case extraction window will be blocked by the palm of your hand, this will make it extremely difficult to eliminate such a delay.

    Yes, I forgot, your cartridge case extraction system is unique, "analogue" so to speak.

    Those who want to check out the work of the Neroni pistol
    There, the delay delay delay drives.
    1. 0
      20 June 2023 09: 26
      Here you go! Again you are trying to seem the smartest, but on the contrary, you expose your ignorance of elementary truths.
      I explain to you, if you do not understand - this is experimental prototype , the world's first (!) pistol with inclined rails! It requires lengthy testing and debugging - thousands of shots must be fired, making resp. changes!
      And you don’t even understand these elementary things, and you are already drawing generalizing conclusions!
      Misleading people!
      I'm telling you - you should learn! Even, as I see it, you don’t have a higher education - this is noticeable. Are you already teaching others?

      Watch the following videos! Neroni then made a new extractor and his failures were eliminated.
  20. 0
    19 June 2023 11: 13
    I guess it's not much longer to wait for the full disclosure of uniqueness:

    The patent ends today.
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      1. 0
        19 June 2023 17: 26
        I finally figured out who I'm dealing with!
        You are an elementary HAYTER!, in the classic form.
        You seem to be tormented in your soul by "a sense of your own greatness."
        But it sharply conflicts with the understanding of one's own mediocrity, but rather insignificance.
        And here comes the personal...

        They themselves, apparently, are not capable of anything, but due to such a pouring of mud on someone else's UNIQUE (!) ideas - "you grow in your own eyes"))))

        No one watered anything - I pointed to the obvious non-bottles, which are covered with a "veil of tannicity".
        Professionals answered you - there is no uniqueness in your invention and there never was. You have the answers, read them again.

        But for the photos with the gun Randy Neroni - "thank you very much"! ))
        You don't even understand (!) that they, on the contrary, confirm the correctness and feasibility of my principle!
        And not performance.

        And to compare the extraction system of Neroni and mine is another proof of your impenetrable denseness (((.

        We saw Neroni's extraction system, but where is yours? We didn't see her. Everything is covered with a mark of tannicity and uniqueness:


        You will continue to hate and troll, and splash here with your poisonous and shameful envy - I will just ask you to be banned!

        And here are the threats. Apparently there are no reasonable arguments, only emotions and threats.
  21. 0
    19 June 2023 17: 52
    Separately, let's go through Neroni, here is his patent already from 2011, it is noteworthy that he did not renew it - the payment was overdue. In addition to a poorly shooting prototype for 12 years, there is nothing.

    Practice shows that in the US, nobody needs him. Since the author of the "Russian Arc" draws analogies of his invention with Neroni's pistol, the conclusions suggest themselves.
  22. 0
    19 June 2023 18: 08
    We continue the conversation ....

    Now about the recoil shoulder, here is how the author imagines it:


    But everyone knows that the emphasis during recoil is carried out in this place:


    There is either a deception (the author takes us for fools) or a lack of understanding of the principles of mechanics.
    1. -1
      20 June 2023 07: 50
      I gave exhaustive explanations on the recoil shoulder in paragraph 2 of the second part of the previous article. So I propose again, but already carefully read the suggested item.
      On my sketch I gave ABSOLUTELY correct interpretation of the recoil shoulder in the generally accepted interpretation.
      I'm sorry that you and this you don’t know an elementary concept, again misleading people with your incompetence!

      By the way, are you from Ukraine? Your stupidity and envy, as well as hatred of the Russian, are pushing for such a "conclusion."
      And then they hid behind a nickname, and sprinkle your "intellectual excrement" here ...

      I see, my dear, trying to explain something to you from the point of view of common sense is a matter of abs. useless! (((
      Therefore, I sent the editor a request to remove your illiterate comments.
      1. +1
        20 June 2023 10: 00
        On my sketch, I gave the ABSOLUTELY correct interpretation of the recoil shoulder in the generally accepted interpretation.
        ABSOLUTELY WRONG. THIS IS CORRECT:





        I gave exhaustive explanations on the recoil shoulder in paragraph 2 of the second part of the previous article
        - which contradicts the sketch, you are confused in the testimony, one thing in the text, another in the figure. Then why are you misleading people with your drawing?
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  25. 0
    13 January 2024 15: 36
    I have a couple of questions:
    What barrel clutch system? (Movable barrel or blowback action?)
    Why is the height and width reduced? Width taking into account a two-row magazine?
    What is the recoil vector? Now it goes straight to the hand and is extinguished by the shoulder
    1. 0
      14 January 2024 01: 37
      The barrel is movable. Locking - blue larva under the barrel in the video.
      The height reduction is achieved due to the fact that, thanks to the radial guides, the butt plate of the handle is raised (in this main meaning!), plus a deep depression in the trigger guard, like a revolver (so to speak, “semi-revolver” ergonomics of the sports-type handle) reduction in width - due to the rational layout of a specially designed compact striker-type trigger.
      The recoil vector lasts 0,0005 seconds - the time the bullet moves along the barrel. The value is about 400 kg (depending on the power of the cartridge). During this time, the barrel coupled with the bolt moves approx. by 3 mm.
      Next - the remaining approx. 45 mm shutter recoil - movement purely by inertia.
      In addition, at the moment of the shot there is an additional effect. impulse of centrifugal force (CSF) in the central part of the gun, - approx. 12 kg down and a little back. Also, the bolt, due to its height above the axis of the barrel, is approx. by 6 mm the CM (center of mass) is a little, approx. 15 kg in 0.0005 seconds “pecks” the front part down, slightly preventing the toss and reducing the pressure on the rear guides to a minimum.
      When the shutter is rolled back, the central circulatory system disappears - a “sweep” of the rad circle occurs. guides, because shutter rotation angle during recoil approx. 2 degrees, and the throwing angle of the pistol is approx. 5...10 degrees (depending, among other things, on the rigidity of holding the pistol). But we must take into account that the sighting devices. to the top. During recoil, parts of the bolt will rotate in the direction opposite to the throw, and the angle of their throw will be 2 degrees less than the angle of the muzzle, which is “good”.
      1. 0
        14 January 2024 22: 30
        So reducing the height and width of the gun is not affected by your radial motion system? So offer your USM and “width” for conventional systems. Maybe start with this?
        Another question, I’m used to the fact that when the front sight lifts up after a shot, I still see it and quickly return it to the line of fire. What will happen if the front sight is not visible and the rear sight is lifted up? I'm trying to imagine it, but it's kind of difficult. It seems to me that for people who often shoot with different pistols, the transition to such a system will be very difficult.
        Regarding magazines, I shoot a lot (I don’t live in Russia) and from different pistols. There have never been any delays caused by the store. To be honest, I’ve never equipped a magazine with a double-row exit, but everything I’ve read and watched on YouTube says that it’s just hell to cram in the last rounds of ammunition.
        1. 0
          15 January 2024 02: 44
          By raising the buttplate due to the R.N. we get “more space” on the back of the grip for palm coverage, so a significant reduction in the height of the pistol is achieved.
          This is not possible with conventional pistols. I now have a height of 104 mm, and the Glock-19 has 128. (With the same size of the handle - 65 mm under the joint bracket - a full grip). Even the subcompact Glock - 26 is inferior - it has 106.
          For sporting (and partly military) pistols this is not important - yes.
          But overall, "Pistol - compact melee weapon", and its compactness makes it easy to carry and concealable. This property is very much in demand among clients, and this is obvious.
          Dimensional perfection is one of the most important (!) problems that I have always strived to solve in every possible way. Making a small gun into a big one is not a problem. High-capacity magic, replaceable handle pads, extension. trunk, etc... But vice versa - alas, it’s impossible))

          Further. The fly will still be tossed. Just maybe less. After all, the “true” recoil shoulder, as I wrote in the previous one. article - rel. middle of the wrist joint.
          Of course, you are right - you will need to get used to this pistol and relearn it. The model I made in metal shows that the significantly lower center of gravity of the pistol is very noticeable. Pleasant feeling, noticeably better than the classic ones! )) Athletes specially hang weights to lower it... After all, ideally the center of gravity of the pistol should be on the SC (!!) For me, it’s a little behind it, but this is easily fixable, and even with the consumption of cartridges it will inevitably “drift” forward ...
          The low sighting line is also very good for me. I like it - the target is immediately caught, it seems to me that this can somewhat reduce the time it takes to fire the first shot. But... time will tell, let's not get ahead of ourselves))
          When shopping - even in the United Arab Emirates, the Glock magician did not pass the sand test - it was recommended to keep them .... in condoms)
          Well, in sports everything is clean, the weapons are monitored...
          1. 0
            16 January 2024 07: 29
            In Russia, it is clear that there is no civilian market for pistols, there is only the army and the security forces. But global success can only be achieved in the civilian arms market, and there the equipment of the magazine is more important than possible contamination.
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    2. 0
      14 January 2024 02: 18
      I didn’t have time to add (they don’t give me enough time to edit) - the magazine is double-row, with a double-row exit of cartridges without changing into one row. Its standard thickness is 20.8 mm.
      At the same time, my pistol frame thickness is 25...26 mm. (for a “subcompact” 24 mm is possible).
      Stores with rearrangements in one row actually “don’t exist” for me.
      They several times(!) less reliable when dirty! And bring reliability sacrificing “convenience of layout” is not in my rules! Let others do this, in the West... And they “fool” customers who are gullible and “close-minded” in fundamentally important weapons issues with bright advertising.
      I would like to see how it would show itself in the trench mud!... (Although I already know...).