IL-112V: final oblivion

245
IL-112V: final oblivion

The situation actually looks like the old adage about the dead: either good or nothing.

In our case, it is complete silence and oblivion. Prime Minister Mishustin, visiting VASO in January last year, was very optimistic:



“As for providing your plant with orders, you can not even doubt it. So, you have IL 96-300 - 10 cars are ordered. From 2024, in my opinion, two cars a year. IL-114. There is an order - four cars. Then up to twelve a year. This is the aircraft kit you will be supplying. Further, you have just been shown the corresponding sample of IL 96-400. We will look at and shape our approaches to wide-body technology and large orders.

Of course, for nine years, I see that you are fully provided with state orders. And as you develop, as airlines acquire new equipment and operate it, of course, your company will be integrated into all these processes, and I am absolutely sure that your company is the future.”


Many were then surprised not to hear from Mishustin even a word about the Il-112V. Deathly silence, even after the Prime Minister visited the workshop, where there were two completed aircraft. But - what he said, they were happy about that.

Against the background of all these “will be” and “later”, the aircraft plant continues to frankly vegetate and has no prospects. Until 2024, when the golden rivers will spill, many still have to live, and with work and salaries in our peculiar time, everything is getting worse there. The workers, I mean.

In April 2023, an interesting message passed. Not from the Ministry of Defense, not from the KLA, not from the Russian government. From the governor of the Voronezh region Gusev. It is very difficult to say why the governor announced the stoppage of work on the Il-112V, but in social networks they reacted as to the command “Save yourself, who can!”. And my friend, who worked at this plant, is now moving to Kazan.

The question "To be or not to be" clearly leaned towards "Not to be". And there are certain reasons for this.

In general, the TV7-117 engine was named the reason for the stop. The engine is really frankly “not a cake”, it has been hoarded since the 80s of the last century, but so far not very successfully. Either they are just unlucky, or the engine is really so-so, but the Mi-38s were made a little more than a dozen including prototypes, the Il-144 (20 copies were made) was preferred by Pratt and Whitney, and the Il-112V ...

Turn to the story


Il-112V began to be created in the 90s of the last century. Eight years of work did not lead to the first flight and the project was suspended for the first time. Then something was depicted, but in 2011 the Ministry of Defense decided to abandon the long-term construction and stopped funding the ROC altogether. The ministry, apparently, stopped believing that the IL-112V would fly at all, and that the TV7-117 would turn into something meaningful and workable.

As an alternative, the Ukrainian An-140 was considered, which was planned to be assembled in Voronezh or Samara, but in 2014 the issue with the Ukrainian aircraft was closed, as it turned out, forever. But the bitterness of the refusal can be mitigated by the fact that the An-140T did not have a ramp, which is so necessary for a military transport aircraft. And in terms of reliability, the An-140 life is a very so-so aircraft.

As a result, having no alternative options at all, the Ministry of Defense in 2014 again bowed to PJSC "Il" and signed a contract to complete the R&D and build three machines, an experimental one and two flight copies. The cost of work left 7,9 billion rubles.

The fuselage of the first Il-112V was assembled by December 2016.


The fact that the work was going very slowly is evidenced by the fact that the first flight took place only in March 2019, and 1 year and 1 month passed between the first and second flights! All this time was spent on correcting the shortcomings identified in the first flight.

And then the media began to leak information that the Il-112V, to put it mildly, is far from perfect. It became known about the huge congestion of the aircraft and the disturbed centering.

Here it is necessary to say a few words about the conditions under which the Il-112V was literally carried into the sky by hand.

From 2014 to 2020, VASO was led by five people - Yuri Yudin, Sergey Sergeev, Sergey Velmozhkin, Alexei Rogozin and Yuri Grudinin. Grudinin was quickly imprisoned, but not for deeds in Voronezh, but in Taganrog, at his previous place of work.

It is very significant that from 1933 to 2014, that is, for 81 years of work, VASO had THREE (!!!) leaders: Sergei Vladimirovich Ilyushin himself (from 1933 to 1970), his student Genrikh Vasilyevich Novozhilov (from 1970 to 1997) and Viktor Vladimirovich Livanov (from 1997 to 2014).

In the conditions of such a frank leapfrog, a situation developed when reports and assurances were sent to Moscow, and the work frankly stood still.

In general, many VASO experts said that it was easier to close the project and start a new one from scratch, taking into account all the problems of the Il-112V. But time was already really working against it, and the decision was made to "drug" what we had.

A fatal mistake for which the best Ilyushin crew paid with their lives.


Aleksey Rogozin, the son of Dmitry Rogozin, a blogger widely known for his statements, who was previously in public service, was sent to the assault. For a young and novice (34 years old) leader, such work has become like a test on the way to the highest echelons.

You can talk a lot about the work of Rogozin, but the fact is that in two years the bare fuselage turned into a car that could take off. And to Rogozin, perhaps, there were the least complaints compared to other leaders. After him there were three more, one of which also did not work out with a career in terms of landing.

But none of the leaders stood up as much as for Rogozin, when Karaulov accused him of the plane crash in 2021. The logic was, they say, they drove, as usual, to the date / forum, they did it somehow.

In fact, everyone at the plant knew perfectly well what the Il-112V was, but they dragged it because they knew that the army needed this transporter. No one built illusions, but they hoped to bring them to mind.


You can understand the factory workers: VASO has been “on the drain” for many years, the factories of Samara and Kazan openly poach (successfully) specialists who, quite naturally, change jobs in exchange for a decent salary. A guaranteed income is provided by the maintenance of presidential IL-96s, otherwise, we can say that VASO is interrupted by random orders. The last time the aircraft left the workshops was in 2018, it was the An-148. Of course, the "threat" to get an order for 100 Il-112V would be great. Not for one year, as they say, that's why they dragged the plane with all their might.


After the first flight, the aircraft factory people perked up, because the plane took off and landed, and the fact that “childhood illnesses” and all sorts of shortcomings is generally a matter of commonplace. Naturally, the elimination of shortcomings was considered a simple matter.

But alas, things didn't go quite the way everyone would have liked. In general, everything else looks like some kind of intricate detective story.

On April 4, 2019, less than a week after the first flight of the Il-112V, Alexei Rogozin leaves the post of General Director of PJSC Il. Very strange, it seemed, here it is, work, only forward, but no. It took "the need to optimize the management structure of the UAC", as a result of which Rogozin went to command ... the Nagatinskaya transport hub. An institution, let's say, very far from aviation.

Instead of Rogozin, the head of the Taganrog Aviation Scientific and Technical Complex (TANTK) named after Beriev, Yuri Grudinin, was appointed to the post of director of VASO.

Under Grudinin, work on fine-tuning the Il-112V and the continuation of the aircraft test program practically stopped.

On June 19, 2020, three months later, Grudinin was replaced by Sergei Yarkovoy. And on July 22, 2020, there was information that Grudinin was charged with embezzlement of 3,7 million rubles while still working in Taganrog, and there, on August 19, 2022, Grudinin received 2,5 years in prison.

the same year, information appeared in the media that Grudinin was suspected of fraud on the fact of embezzlement of 3,7 million rubles. Subsequently, on August 19, 2022, the Taganrog City Court sentenced Grudinin to 2,5 years in a penal colony ...

Under Yarkov, things got a little shaky, right. That day to day, but two years later, on March 30, 2021, the Il-112V made its second flight. The IL-112V did not fly again, the plane began to prepare for the forum "Army ...".


On August 13, 2021, the aircraft, without completing the flight test program, flew from Voronezh to Zhukovsky near Moscow to participate in the VII Army-2021 International Military-Technical Forum.


On August 17, the plane was taken to a training flight. When the car took off, there was a surge and then a fire on the right engine. The fire melted the aluminum aileron rods, as a result of which the aircraft fell on the right wing, collided with the ground and exploded in the area of ​​the Nikolskoye settlement.

The crew of test pilot Hero of Russia Nikolai Kuimov, test pilot Dmitry Komarov and test flight engineer Nikolai Khludeev died.

The accident during the fourth flight completely stopped all work on the aircraft "until the causes of the disaster were clarified", although it was already clear that the aircraft was not ready for demonstration flights in the least. A wild desire to show at least something resulted in the loss of three testers who could bring this car to mind, if it were not so needed for show.

On February 22, 2022, it was announced that all work on the production of the Il-112V, including work on assembling the second and third prototypes at VASO, was suspended until the investigation of the crash with the first aircraft was completed.

On February 10, 2023, another change of leadership took place: the UAC press service announced that Daniil Brenerman would head VASO instead of Sergey Yarkovy.

Total: for 9 years, 7 general directors managed to work at VASO. The Il-112V has been set aside, and Prime Minister Mishustin did not even mention it in his speeches to the factory workers. But it was good to tell them that everything was fine with them.


The question arises: does it make sense to complete the construction of the second and third copies of the aircraft in order to finalize them (overload of 2 tons has not gone away)?

Answer: in the form in which everything is now - not the slightest. The problems of misalignment have not been solved, the problems of excess weight have not been solved, and moreover, there is no engine for the aircraft. TV7-117 is not powerful enough and absolutely unreliable engine. It could not be brought to condition for more than 30 years, and will not be able to continue.

Does the Russian army need the Il-112V? Yes, it is not only needed, it is necessary. Yesterday. How long can the service life of An-22, An-12 and An-26 be extended? Until the moment when they start to crumble in the air? And besides them, sorry, nothing else. IL-76 and helicopters. And forty-year-old An-72.

At the time of the news about the suspension of all work on the Il-112V, the situation is as follows: there is no engine for a light transporter. And the plane itself is also missing.


Does it make sense to "drag" TV7-117 and Il-112V into the sky? Aviation specialists, who know the true state of affairs with the project, say out loud that no, it’s not worth it. This will simply lead to the waste of billions and some more human lives.

Approaching the issue responsibly, if we really need a military transport aircraft, and not the development of funds by the next managers at VASO (and believe me, gentlemen, the managers live there simply gorgeous, I know personally how delicious it is to work in the commercial department of an enterprise), then about IL-112V is really worth forgetting. As well as about the unsuccessful TV7-177. And start from scratch at an accelerated pace, work on a new aircraft. Under a different engine, which, too, may have to be created.

Of course, it is necessary to work not in the Russian way, but much faster. Work on the Il-112V began in 2002, the first flight - 2019. The second, third and last flight is 2021. Almost 20 years.

For comparison, the An-26, which was planned to replace the Il-112V: development began in 1964, technical documentation was transferred to production in 1968, and already on May 21, 1969, the first flight of the An-26 was successfully carried out. 5 years of work and how many years of service.

There is, you see, something to be equal to.

That is, without computers, 3D-modeling programs, in those days for 5 years they worked out an aircraft, which this year celebrates the 50th anniversary of its labor activity. It is still flying.

What prevents our KLA from doing the same? After all, today it is “We can repeat” on every corner, so let's repeat!

But something says that the Russian military transport aviation will have very troubled and difficult times ahead. But in this stories there is one plus: initially no IL-112V will kill anyone else. I count on it very much.
245 comments
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  1. +29
    28 May 2023 03: 51
    A couple of three death sentences and a dozen sentences for 25 years of special regime would bring clarity and engineering clarity to the project of this mud. The work would have been carried out ahead of schedule and with proper quality. Now this is a huge black hole sucking up budget money and enriching the families of top managers and chief designers
    1. -29
      28 May 2023 06: 08
      1) executions will not help,
      2) solving engineering problems will not help,
      3) here it’s just that the very concept of this aircraft is extremely doubtful, as mentioned above in the Russian Federation, other types of aircraft overlap the tasks of a similar class of VTA, for example:
      3.1) in terms of carrying capacity and range, it overlaps the IL-76 and An-124 from above
      3.2) in terms of maneuverability and low demands on the runway, mi-8 and mi-26 helicopters overlap from below,
      3.3) at the cost of transportation, they block civilian aircraft converted into military-military Tu-134, An-72, An-26 and others

      So it turns out that consumers do not really need it. hi

      ps In general, the topic is extensive, I myself, studying this area a couple of years ago, came to the conclusion that everything will remain as it is, and will change only in two cases, 1) or the development of a fundamentally new multi-mode propulsion engine; 2) or the development of a VTA with a VVPZ capable of covering tasks from mi-8 to "under-IL-76" (transportation of 1 armored combat vehicle, not 2-4); In all other cases, a narrower specialization, like the current situation, will be more profitable.
      1. +26
        28 May 2023 09: 30
        Starting with the fact that the sides are needed not only for military aviation, but also for civilians, ending with the fact that the titanic Soviet legacy is ending, and "ours" like a supersuperjet and other MSs, it is not clear when it will fly in the right quantities, taking into account the peculiarities of import substitution - brilliant ideas. About replacing aircraft with turntables and about, sorry, militarization of the same decrepit heritage that does not exist - generally a masterpiece.
        But the fact that a variety of executions will not help - I agree entirely. Because the same ones who brought the situation to hell and brought it) will shoot. This, by the way, applies to all the sufferers of Stalin's times. Shouting about the mythical order. To these, sorry, rodents, the simple, like a crowbar, idea does not reach that during the incarnation of Koba, now in leather jackets and dusty helmets there will be all the same Rogozins and Chubais. Neither they nor other heavenly angels. They didn't exist in those years. Apparently, "longing for the boot" prevents citizens from sleeping peacefully
      2. -24
        28 May 2023 09: 54
        The problem of IL - 112 is solved in an elementary way, replacing the engine, for example, D - 27. Yes, it is more than two times heavier, but almost four times more powerful. Improvements on the airframe and planes and have a normal military transport airplane.
        1. +18
          28 May 2023 10: 16
          Perfect solution. Where to put the approval plate? How many tens of billions will you master by the 30th year?

          Are you out of your mind at all? Such an increase in mass and power, this is a new wing without options. At the same time, the wing will be much more powerful than the fuselage. Well, that is, it makes sense to drag this fuselage with a wing and engines that will also pull out a cabin for 8-10 tons of useful?

          I am already silent about the nuance, namely, the D-27, even at Ivchenko-Sich, will not be produced under ideal conditions right tomorrow. Engine died 10 years as if that. Well, in general, Ivchenko-Sich, in any case, will not produce anything for the new VTA VKS in the foreseeable future (20-30 years)
          1. -8
            28 May 2023 13: 13
            The plane has a problem with centering, so you still have to lengthen the glider. Naturally. this will pull the processing of the planes. I do not see any particular problems in this, since the aircraft is not mass-produced. The D - 27 engine was produced in the amount of 16 pieces, which is quite enough to work out the technology. It can be produced further, especially since the screw-gear group was made by the plant in Stupino.
            1. 0
              2 June 2023 09: 47
              I have a question: why is TV7-117 unsuccessful for IL-112 and successful for IL-114?
        2. +5
          28 May 2023 12: 22
          The problem of IL - 112 is solved in an elementary way, replacing the engine, for example, D - 27. Yes, it is more than two times heavier, but almost four times more powerful. Improvements on the airframe and planes and have a normal military transport airplane.

          Compare this pregnant wildebeest to An-26.


          In pursuit of fuel economy according to the impossible requirements of the terms of reference, they reduced the wing area by almost half, at the same time, in pursuit of usable volume, they doubled the fuselage. They thought it would slip. I marvel at the courage of the test pilots to get this freak up in the air. The main thing is that the conscience of the designers turned out to be below the plinth, if only they paid a salary, one, in my opinion, was indignant, but he was fired. I would talk to the designers with passion. Of course, I feel sorry for the Ilyushentsev, I remember what state they were in in the 90s, but to make a project that is obviously impossible???
          This was written by the designer.
          1. 0
            31 May 2023 20: 59
            I wrote this in the comments to the thread about the disaster.
            But I have nothing to do with the IL-112, and even with the design of the aircraft. Although I have some specialized knowledge, they are far from the level of a professional aircraft designer.
          2. 0
            2 June 2023 12: 24
            Quote: Konnick
            The problem of IL - 112 is solved in an elementary way, replacing the engine, for example, D - 27. Yes, it is more than two times heavier, but almost four times more powerful. Improvements on the airframe and planes and have a normal military transport airplane.

            Compare this pregnant wildebeest to An-26.


            In pursuit of fuel economy according to the impossible requirements of the terms of reference, they reduced the wing area by almost half, at the same time, in pursuit of usable volume, they doubled the fuselage. They thought it would slip. I marvel at the courage of the test pilots to get this freak up in the air. The main thing is that the conscience of the designers turned out to be below the plinth, if only they paid a salary, one, in my opinion, was indignant, but he was fired. I would talk to the designers with passion. Of course, I feel sorry for the Ilyushentsev, I remember what state they were in in the 90s, but to make a project that is obviously impossible???
            This was written by the designer.

            By the way: similar problems arose when replacing many VTA aircraft produced back in the 1960-1970-hairy years. Read how many programs the Europeans had to replace the S-130. Everything is 3-4 times more expensive in terms of cost compared to the desired replacement boards.
        3. +1
          28 May 2023 21: 48
          Quote: TermNachTER
          The problem of IL - 112 is solved elementarily, replacing the engine, for example, D - 27.

          And why didn’t they immediately offer to stick the GE90-115? it’s even better, and if you make a rotary gundola, you can generally take off vertically))). But seriously, have you tried to stick a diesel engine from a locomotive into the body of a passenger car? And who will produce and sell the D-27 to you? Here GE is more realistic to get, at least they are produced.
          1. 0
            29 May 2023 10: 34
            Firstly, the D - 27 engine has a weight of 1,5 tons, and the one that costs 0,5 tons. That is, no "Zhiguli" and diesel locomotives. Alteration of the airframe is still to be, because it has problems with centering. Accordingly, the alteration of the planes. D - 27 is four times more powerful, respectively, the aircraft will come out with performance characteristics closer to An - 12 than An - 24, 26. But maybe even better. Regarding the receipt of engines - 30 km to Zaporozhye.
            1. +4
              29 May 2023 11: 00
              Quote: TermNachTER
              Alteration of the airframe ....., alteration of the planes .... D - 27 is four times more powerful
              Don't you think that this is all about the construction of a completely new aircraft? It's all very simple for you. In reality, creating a new aircraft is cheaper than finishing it on the scale that you propose and much cheaper, while it is not clear what the result will be. Yes, and no one will be reasonable to do this, this is a new aircraft. In aviation, there was a case when the first version of the Su 27 did not try to finish and finish it, but redesigned it for a new one, only in this case an aircraft corresponding to the TTT was obtained.
            2. +4
              29 May 2023 20: 12
              Comrade, no nonsense. I ask you as an aircraft design engineer
      3. +33
        28 May 2023 12: 16
        Quote: ProkletyiPirat
        other types of aircraft overlap the tasks of a similar class of military aircraft, for example:
        3.1) in terms of carrying capacity and range, it overlaps the IL-76 and An-124 from above

        Do not smack Nonsense, it hurts unbearably.
        The IL-112V is needed and necessary for one reason (the rest are not so significant) - we need a light ramp truck for transporting assembled aircraft engines. In order not to drive a whole Il-76 with one engine for repair. That is why the VTA light aircraft must be LIGHT and certainly ramp.
        The main reason why this cannot take place is the lack of an engine.
        The complete absence of even a prototype or project for a turboshaft engine of the required power.
        If we got Zaporozhye with its Motor Sich in 2022, the problem could be considered solved. But this plant, in fact, no longer exists - its equipment was dismantled and exported ... and Zaporozhye is not ours. Yes, and the goals of such a tower were not set. As well as in general for victory.
        They put on the war.
        They didn’t put it on Aviation either. that's why she doesn't exist.
        And the production of Combat Aviation was almost curtailed a few years before the SVO, having fired a bunch of specialists from enterprises, aircraft factories (for example, in Irkutsk) were going to be completely converted to the production of spare parts.
        The managers mastered the budgets, the towers were financed, the result was not foreseen.
        That is why the production of the Il-76MD90A has not been debugged, not organized, is not being conducted and is not going to be conducted ... so - they indulge in two or three a year. For the task of the Result is not worth it. Task for PR and Imitation.
        Everything else is exactly the same.
        And in combat aviation, incl. - produced 100 plus or minus new aircraft of several types (Su-30 \ 34 \ 35), REJECTED the light fighter as a class, fired the employees of the aircraft plant exactly on the eve of the launch of the Su-57 "series" ... As a result, in the past 2022 ( already military) year, the entire great and mighty KLA produced AJ 27 combat aircraft! Having lost "TOTAL" 33 combat aircraft in battles and flight accidents. This year promises a LOT more.
        Imitation? belay
        Imitation. Yes
        "Everything goes according to plan". bully
        There are still no troops on the border with used ones.
        But the Ukrainian Armed Forces yesterday so diligently ironed the adjacent territory ... stop "It's different!". It is much more useful to see an exhibition of wooden "sculptures" of the brilliant minister of all times and extraordinary events. Or read a book by a brilliant strategist of "hybrid wars" ... And be touched.
        So soon we will defeat everyone.
        A joke ... with a bit of a joke.
        1. +1
          28 May 2023 13: 15
          the plant is working safely, despite certain difficulties.
          1. +2
            29 May 2023 03: 07
            Quote: TermNachTER
            the plant is working safely, despite certain difficulties.

            Praise to Ahura Mazda (Lord of Reason) before the closure of the ASZ. Chkalov, it did not reach, and the order for the Su-34, although reluctantly, was extended. But how many forces and nerves it cost. And in Komsomolsk, the production of the Su-57, although not easy, is going on. And the order for the Su-35S was expanded, this year they promise 10-12 units. hand over to the customer. A dozen Su-30SMs. Maybe the Su-34 will overpower up to a dozen.
            There were rumors about the launch of the MiG-35S into the series, and at two factories at once ... but there is no more information about this. But if the factories hadn’t been thrashing for so many years ... after all, they were ready to produce 36 MiG-35S a year - the production lines were ready, they carried out modernization, people were ...
            Now I hope the "eccentricities" are over and the combat aviation will be updated and grow numerically. hi
            1. 0
              18 June 2023 19: 39
              Nobody needs the MiG-35, the concept of a pseudo-light aircraft is outdated.
        2. +2
          28 May 2023 17: 28
          For the first time I hear about reprofiling for the production of spare parts at the Irkutsk plant.
          1. -1
            28 May 2023 18: 06
            I'm actually talking about the plant, which is in Zaporozhye. It was about the D-27 engine.
          2. +1
            28 May 2023 22: 43
            Talk about the Novosibirsk aircraft plant, probably.
            1. +2
              29 May 2023 03: 15
              Quote from Great Mike
              Talk about the Novosibirsk aircraft plant, probably.

              Exactly .
          3. +2
            29 May 2023 03: 13
            Quote: mmaxx
            For the first time I hear about reprofiling for the production of spare parts at the Irkutsk plant.

            Quote from Great Mike
            Talk about the Novosibirsk aircraft plant, probably.

            That's right, a typo on the machine, the text did not check. It's about ASZ them. Chkalov. They wanted to convert it to the production of components for the MS-21. The failure of plans to launch the MS-21 into a series due to a failure in American composites gave a chance to save the production of shock Su-34s and launch its modernized version into a series.
        3. +3
          31 May 2023 21: 13
          Close, but not.
          "Spartan" was the first car from the category "what can be transported by truck - can be transported by plane" (it is clear that taking into account weight). His successor S.295 - developed the concept to the level of "what is brought by truck - will be delivered by plane" (increasing the volume to the volume of a typical truck without increasing the carrying capacity). And this is a very good idea, more than in demand for the military (the ability to use cheap civilian logistics on the main part of the route, connecting aviation only on the "last mile", that is, for the frontline zone), freeing up military trucks to transport ammunition and special equipment.
          The original IL-112 aimed at the Spartan niche without a full understanding of the concept of its application (due to the fact that the USSR did not have to solve such problems). When, finally, an understanding appeared - the aircraft was already decently outdated logistically (although it could be much more efficiently included in the modern logistics chain, unlike the same An-26), but attempts to do everything "cheaply and quickly" (refresh the old man and quickly over-boost the budding engine) - instead of starting the design of a new aircraft and, most importantly, the engine of the required thrust for it - played a role.
      4. +4
        29 May 2023 12: 55
        About "block" - talk nonsense. The IL-112v is designed to carry an UAZ-loaf, an engine of the D30 family and a set of blades for the Mi8. Because of one of these products, driving IL76 is not profitable.
        1. +3
          31 May 2023 21: 39
          The IL-112V is designed to transport what fits in the body of an army KAMAZ (just like the C.27 is designed to transport what fits in the back of a NATO truck like the Iveco M250 - naturally, within the carrying capacity of aircraft).
          Loaves, helicopter blades, etc. he, of course, can transport - but these goods look good in advertising brochures, and the harsh reality of soldiers is much more necessary to eat and dress.
      5. -2
        29 May 2023 17: 41
        Cover while they are in service. It was developed as a new vision of modern transport aviation. But that's it. I wanted to write about executions. Executions in Russia are not a whim and not an extreme measure. This is a severe need. If you want the country to work, you need repressions and executions / stakes / gallows.
        1. +4
          29 May 2023 20: 18
          Yeah, this is not a god that will get into power .... Start with yourself, shoot and hang in front of a mirror.
          1. 0
            14 July 2023 20: 44
            Quote: Adler77
            Yeah, this is not a god that will get into power .... Start with yourself, shoot and hang in front of a mirror.

            Well, at the expense of executions, I don’t know, but the salary of the entire engineer, management, etc., non-workers, must be made dependent on the output. After all, the workers are paid piecework. There are products - there is a salary. The more products, the higher, albeit up to certain limits, the salary. And why is it not so with the engineering and management team?
            [/ quote] (and believe me, gentlemen managers live there simply gorgeous, I know personally how delicious it is to work in the commercial department of an enterprise), [quote]

            I confirm that this is true.
    2. +3
      28 May 2023 09: 56
      Quote from: FoBoss_VM
      A couple of three execution sentences

      We won’t get enough people ... And people, this is a resource that is restored for a very long time, therefore, condemn, with confiscation, so much so that relatives would pay, and work off the rest of the debt for 15 years
      1. +31
        28 May 2023 11: 15
        Quote: svp67
        Quote from: FoBoss_VM
        A couple of three execution sentences

        We won’t get enough people ... And people, this is a resource that is restored for a very long time, therefore, condemn, with confiscation, so much so that relatives would pay, and work off the rest of the debt for 15 years

        Il-112V is like a symbol of modern Russian power - collective irresponsibility. No one is to blame for anything, no one is responsible for anything, "it just sucks." Until we get rid of this irresponsibility, there will be nothing, no planes, no victories at the front ...
        1. +1
          29 May 2023 10: 55
          Quote: Greg Miller

          Il-112V is like a symbol of modern Russian power - collective irresponsibility. No one is to blame for anything, no one is responsible for anything, "it just sucks." Until we get rid of this irresponsibility, there will be nothing, no planes, no victories at the front ...

          Wait a minute, they will say that the engine caught fire as a result of the partial destruction of something there, and they will stick a conditional to the head (master) of some shift.
      2. +2
        29 May 2023 09: 32
        Other people will come. What are you experiencing? It is clear that cadres decide everything. But how long can such "frames" be tolerated?
    3. -1
      28 May 2023 10: 28
      The rest will scatter. But to collect in one sharaga, along with the leadership (first of all) .... Things will go
      1. +3
        28 May 2023 11: 25
        As a result, they will buy something from the Chinese - there are no other options, because. rearranging the beds in the brothel will not change anything, and everyone without exception is afraid of the year XNUMX as the devil incense.
      2. +5
        28 May 2023 12: 54
        If you collect the Rogozins' sharaga - what will happen?
        1. +3
          28 May 2023 20: 45
          Quote: frog
          If you collect the Rogozins' sharaga - what will happen?


          If they gather in a sharaga to work on the result of hitherto responsible persons, then this means at least that in the ideology of Russia's development something has moved the death point in the direction necessary for the country - you must admit, this is a lot. Only no one will do it. Because bees can't resist honey. Yesterday the West was an ally, today it is China. It is easier for those in power to sell resources with kickbacks and buy planes from China with kickbacks.
      3. +2
        29 May 2023 20: 26
        This is how and who are you going to collect in sharagi?
    4. +5
      28 May 2023 13: 31
      Quote from: FoBoss_VM
      Now it is a huge black hole sucking up budget money and enriching the families of top managers and chief designers

      This is the whole reason for this project. In the 90s, the plant even made kirieshki. I think the plant is still either heated or divided.
    5. +9
      28 May 2023 18: 39
      If competencies in the aircraft industry in general are lost,
      and in engine building in particular,
      no shootings and landings will help.
    6. +15
      28 May 2023 22: 04
      A couple of three death sentences and a dozen sentences for 25 years of special regime would bring clarity and engineering clarity to the draft of this mud.

      This is one of the reasons why the Soviet Union perished: there was no good defense against fools.
      Specialists write to you that they leave the factory, the directors do not last more than a year, the pilots died.
      That is a huge staffing problem.
      And you offer to plant and shoot.
      How are you going to lure people then, not to this plant, but to the aircraft industry in general?
      Are you going to chain the designers to the drawing board?
      So the slaves of the aircraft do not know how. am

      For the right people. First hand history. By virtue of my education and places of work, I personally know the best programmers in the country. System programmers capable of solving and solving very serious problems. The same NOS is actually a fairly simple project. So these people do not want to go to work in state offices. They have already earned money before retirement, they will just rest. Prepret will go as consultants or in general to foreign projects. Do you know why? They do not want to see idiots as bosses who have not done a damn thing in their lives, but they think that they know simple solutions (depending on preferences from shooting to getting rich). Here's the real problem.

      So let's first shoot you Vanya. Suddenly everything will get better, but it will not get better, so it’s not a big loss, because he’s not the general designer. belay
      And in general, let's pass the law wrote stupidity - ten years of a stricter. Wrote two relapse - life. Wrote three incorrigible - execution. Kidding.
      1. -2
        29 May 2023 11: 14
        Quote: bk316
        Here's the real problem

        On the one hand, it is, and on the other hand, these super-duper programmers of yours are all straight Nobel Prize winners. They have such a fate that they have achieved something, now they consider everyone to be idiots. So let them try to change something, otherwise they snort, but they act smart, especially since they will not be financially dependent, the only motivation will be to get a result.
        And those who are guilty of committing crimes must be punished, otherwise corruption cannot be eliminated.
        Specialists should not be chained with chains, but with motivation and interesting work. Not everyone is ready to leave for money.
        1. +7
          29 May 2023 11: 21
          They have such a fate that they have achieved something, now they consider everyone to be idiots. So let them try to change something

          They don't think EVERYONE is an idiot. They and I, because I am also a programmer, consider amateurs to be idiots who think they can tell designers how to make planes, programmers how to write programs, and generals how to command armies. And those people are idiots. And in order to change, you need to abandon your profession and go into politics or economics. But programmers, doctors, real designers will not do this because they are creators, and this is addictive.
          1. -4
            30 May 2023 11: 24
            Quote: bk316

            They don't think EVERYONE is an idiot. They and I, because I am also a programmer, consider amateurs to be idiots who think they can tell designers how to make planes, programmers how to write programs, and generals how to command armies. And those people are idiots. And in order to change, you need to abandon your profession and go into politics or economics. But programmers, doctors, real designers will not do this because they are creators, and this is addictive.

            I understood you. If the leader is not a programmer, not a designer, not a doctor, then he is an idiot. Give your friends and you as leaders only not idiots, otherwise you don’t play like that. And let the rest suffer with such idiotic leaders, because they are not as smart as you and your friends.
            Crown does not press?
            Who argues that it is great if the leader is well versed not only in management methods, financial reporting, microeconomics, labor legislation, in the field of labor protection, knows how to plan, but also has knowledge in the direct activities of subordinates. But alas, this is not always the case.
            So they propose to hold accountable those who do not understand the design of aircraft, but give instructions, or understand, but intentionally harm. To remove idiots and thieves from leadership positions, such as you and your friends to create conditions for creative work. Otherwise, you don’t want executions and terms for anyone, and there’s no other way to remove idiots.
            1. 0
              31 May 2023 09: 37
              Quote: MeVED
              I understood you. If the leader is not a programmer, not a designer, not a doctor, then he is an idiot. Give your friends and you as leaders only not idiots, otherwise you don’t play like that. And let the rest suffer with such idiotic leaders, because they are not as smart as you and your friends.
              Crown does not press?

              There is a nuance here - all these people can be cool specialists in their field, but absolutely no leaders who cannot work with a large team. The leader is primarily an organizer, administrator, for all subordinate specialists.
              1. 0
                31 May 2023 22: 04
                Administrator? I don’t agree, read about the Soviet chief designers, but there were all sorts of things, not only Korolevs, but they weren’t pure administrators and were well versed in materiel.
                1. 0
                  1 June 2023 09: 01
                  Yes, there are good managers among specialists, but this happens 50/50, and I wrote about this. And the right administrator will select knowledgeable performers, even if he himself does not understand the topic, but he must have a flair, and things will go well. The problem is that good leaders are just as scarce as good specialists. There is a saying: A first-class leader surrounds himself with first-class performers, a second-class leader surrounds himself with third-class and lower performers.
              2. +2
                2 June 2023 23: 21
                Quote: ettore

                There is a nuance here - all these people can be cool specialists in their field, but absolutely no leaders who cannot work with a large team. The leader is primarily an organizer, administrator, for all subordinate specialists.

                Here I am about the same. It’s just that comrade bk316 replied to a comment about executions that we already have a personnel shortage. Only the comment about the executions is clearly close to the slogan. Although in the current situation it is not yet known what measures are really worth taking. Plus, some ingrained stereotype about executions, landings, idiot bosses, and so on worked for bk316. He is in no hurry to write himself and his friends as idiots, because they "earned money for themselves before retirement." And he and his friends consider idiots those leaders who "think they can tell designers how to make planes, programmers how to write programs, and generals how to command armies". And also programmers, doctors, real designers - the only creators, and if you are not one of them, then, accordingly, following the logic, an idiot.
                I suggested that he remove the crown, and separate the proposal to punish the perpetrators from the execution of the designers. And I don’t give a damn what position the person responsible for the plane crash and the disruption of production deadlines held. It is only obvious that part of the blame is definitely on the leader. If the main fault is on the chief designer, because he did not master the computer and the corresponding software, and therefore he himself could not control anything and there was no way to control his subordinates, as a result of which gross miscalculations were made, then the designer should sit down, and I don’t give a damn about his experience and regalia if he is guilty. And if the fault of the leader, who was engaged in murky schemes for withdrawing funds over the hill, instead of controlling the increase in the professional knowledge and skills of employees, searching for suppliers of quality materials, then the leader should sit down. If there was an unfortunate combination of circumstances and force majeure, then no one should be punished. But everything points to gouging, which means there are guilty. And here bk316 contradicts himself, because he believes that in the "state offices" (and PJSC "IL", I believe, not far gone) the leaders are idiots, but they cannot be punished, otherwise there are not enough personnel. I'm trying to explain to him that not everyone who can't write programs in machine languages ​​is an idiot, and a good administrator can manage. But it is necessary to punish those responsible for such failures, regardless of knowledge and skills. After all, the article is just about the fact that money is allocated, and instead of the result for many years, the appearance of actions, and at the end - a crash with the death of the crew. Moreover, everyone understands that this happens, but the whole picture as a whole is indicative of the whole country, not only the aircraft industry.
    7. RMT
      +3
      29 May 2023 15: 53
      The survivors and the unplanted will scatter. Who will work?
      1. 0
        2 June 2023 23: 27
        Quote: RMT
        The survivors and the unplanted will scatter. Who will work?

        Who worked, he will be, because with a probability approaching one, the leader is to blame.
    8. 0
      3 June 2023 11: 30
      Well, who will they shoot there - a couple, three small bumps that they won’t be able to give on their paws? And again, alien leaders for what - are they not the master of this apparatus or? What is the task of the government - digitalization - here is the model in the aircraft sim, and okay, no one needs real production
  2. -33
    28 May 2023 03: 58
    To be honest, I'm already tired of Skomorokhov!
    1. +30
      28 May 2023 07: 00
      Quote: non-primary
      To be honest, I'm already tired of Skomorokhov!

      From jingoistic patriots or what? Understand.

      . for 9 years, 7 general directors managed to work at VASO. The Il-112V has been set aside, and Prime Minister Mishustin did not even mention it in his speeches to the factory workers. But it was good to tell them that they are fine.


      Solid positive!
      The current leaders are about success and prosperity. Proven by personal wealth and luxurious living.

      Difficulties and problems are not seen as an integral part of the work process, but as an unnecessary negative for the "winner" and very "successful" person. This negativity must be taken on by subordinates and closed on themselves. And at the top, the subordinates are obliged to give out exclusively positive. Nothing else is expected of them. Planet of the Pink Ponies.
      1. +2
        28 May 2023 07: 28
        Quote: Stas157
        The current leaders are about success and prosperity. Proven by personal wealth and luxurious living.

        You ask this Mr., what are the successes of the billionaire Rotenberg in the construction of the palace near Gelendzhik ... The very one that is not for Putin, but for Rotenberg - the “hero of labor” and his friends ... The memory itself has already been rolled up with asphalt rollers and the fact that these apartments are...
        And they are ... Where can one easily hide a hundred billion? This is not "thimbles" at the station to play. This is where the ball can be snatched for the amusement of accomplices ...
        1. +14
          28 May 2023 08: 41
          Quote: ROSS 42
          You ask this Mr., what are the successes of the billionaire Rotenberg in the construction of a palace near Gelendzhik ...

          It would be interesting to know how the "hotel" is doing there now. I'm sure a lot of people would like to have a rest there!
          According to Rotenberg to a journalist:

          mark my word, I am rarely mistaken, one and a half to two years will pass, and I will invite you. AND you look at this beauty that will be there. Yes, if you want, you can even...

          So I can legally go there?

          “Yes, of course, since you have already entered there illegally, you can count on a discount.

          One and a half to two years have just passed, and the hotel is still not open! No hearing, no spirit. But such grandmas are invested.
          1. +8
            28 May 2023 09: 32
            - Whose leg is this?
            - Who needs a leg!
    2. +35
      28 May 2023 07: 37
      To be honest, I'm already tired of Skomorokhov!

      Dear. You have been on the site for more than 9 years and could not help but notice that the articles of Roman Skomorokhov always arouse interest among visitors to the VO site. Because what Roman writes about is always topical and relevant. Apparently, in your world everything is fine and fine, and around are "jelly banks and milky rivers". What can you say about the content of the article? Write an article. We honor.
      1. 0
        28 May 2023 14: 48
        The novel writes about the important, but his view is not always free from subjectivity. About VASO, yes, the situation is difficult, but the Il-112V can be brought up, only the disaster in August not only slowed down everything, but stopped it altogether. You can scold TV7-117 to the point of insanity, but you need to bring it up. Because there is still an IL-114 and a helicopter version. At one time, the PS-90, crude, abandoned, was so poured with mud, but as a result, hundreds of engines work on the Il76/96 and Tu204/214 and it was nevertheless brought to mind. I’ll tell Roman that the development of a new theater will take 7-10 years to a series with technical risks and R & D in billions of rubles.
        1. +2
          28 May 2023 15: 51
          Completely agree with your opinion. The engine will bring little left. After all, Klimov relatively recently began to make engines, and earlier they did it in Zaporozhye. If it had been installed wisely, including the fire department, then things would have turned out differently. After all, engines burn not for the first time, and even on production aircraft, but pilots land such aircraft. There is no order in KB. For such a design, in theory, you should be put in jail.
          1. +1
            31 May 2023 21: 28
            So, just for information - the "Zaporozhye" TV3 engines were developed and adjusted by the Klimovsk design bureau (including personnel seconded to the plant).
            The original TV7 was a development of this engine, taking into account the Afghan experience and more modern structural materials and calculation methods.
            However, what was installed on the Il-112 is like squeezing out of the Lada Vesta the opportunity to transport a dozen riot policemen in full gear per flight. But no matter how you bring the fret-vesta, it will not become a bus (but this is precisely the task that was set before the Klimovites without the right to do it humanly).
  3. +22
    28 May 2023 04: 26
    It has long been noticed that "effective" managers sent from outside ... often do not even have a specialized education, but "know how to lead", sinking enterprises do not lead to anything good. and this is an axiom for enterprises of any profile. if the team itself cannot "give birth" to the most competent fan of production ... or by the will of fate (not for the intended purpose from above) a genius like Elon Mask does not nail to the sinking ship, stagnation and collapse will inevitably await the manufacturing company.
    Businesses, like people, live for a certain number of years. in oil production there is such a definition "fading field". silt is a fading firm. workers need to get away from it before it's too late.
    1. +10
      28 May 2023 08: 19
      It has long been noticed that "effective" managers sent from outside ... often do not even have a specialized education, but "know how to lead", sinking enterprises do not lead to anything good ...

      In the USSR, many enterprises for the creation and production of military products were headed by Chief Designers.
      Brief excerpts from the statements "on the role of the Chief Designer" of the President of the Association of State Scientific Centers, General Director of the All-Russian Research Institute of Aviation Materials Academician of the Russian Academy of Sciences Evgeny Kablov.
      "... What is the situation now? In most cases, the general designer, figuratively speaking, is separated from money. And often deprived of influence, the general director manages everything. Let him lead, but the general designer should have the main tool - finance. And he, and not who something else, must determine who will work in his team.At the same time, the general designer is obliged to be personally responsible for what he is entrusted with ...
      ...We remember: the general designer was a god and a king, the elite of the engineering and scientific community. He accumulates such an amount of knowledge to unite all those involved in the project. And finances are allocated for it. But not in order to quickly master them. And to organize effective cooperation, debug interaction and get the stated result.
      Without people capable of initiating some, at first, maybe crazy ideas, we will not be able to break into new areas of engineering and technology...
      ... A person must constantly think about the subject where he acts as a general designer. It does not come as an appetite while eating. The formation of a real designer in the vast majority of cases is due to what he already showed interest in as a child, from his school and student years ...
      ...If we take budget classifiers, we will see that fundamental research is carried out without applied research. That is, you got the result, and then do as you like: look at it and rejoice or put it on the shelf. And applied research, if you follow the same guidelines, is carried out without conducting exploratory fundamental research. But we understand that if we do not conduct fundamental research, if we do not gain new knowledge, we will never create new technologies. That is why the chain needs to be restored: knowledge, applied research, R&D, and then implementation in the industry..." https://www.ras.ru/digest/showdnews.aspx?id=d0eae465-c426-4917-808d-64f583fd4d8d
    2. 0
      30 May 2023 23: 41
      if you look like that, then we have any institution - sinking - with someone sent from outside ...
  4. +43
    28 May 2023 04: 31
    How to answer the author's questions? And to whom?
    Here you read a lot of fantastic literature, then the Military Review, and somehow suddenly a conspiracy theory arises.
    Some progressors, or rather regressors from distant cosmic depths, have been introduced into our civilization and successfully hinder its scientific, technical and social development.
    Indeed, during the time of the AN-26, space technology was also created, which also flies to this day. And Zhiguli cars throughout this period were produced the same.
    So what do we practically do?
    For some reason, the rejection of the socialist way of managing did not give impetus to the development of domestic engineering in all its forms.
    Although it would seem, freedom, citizens!
    Create, invent, try!
    And what? The most successful were not engineers, not designers with technologists. And certainly not workers-craftsmen.
    The most successful under the "new regime" we have become financial rogues. Which can stir up a story with the receipt of certain funds for certain projects, then imperceptibly, but quickly bring about a business fog, under the cover of which part of the funds goes into their own pocket, and part is simply sprayed.
    As a result, tricksters have money, engineering and craftsmen are at the minimum wage, and there are simply NO products.
    From the strength of the demonstrators present, in order to somehow justify their wise leadership before ripping off.
    After all, no one will call for accountability before "the party and the people."
    Is that the same "entrepreneurs": who will envy, and who will praise. For entrepreneurial spirit and effective management for the benefit of oneself. And everything again comes to the question of the existing system of ownership of the means of production, the political system, the system of the state idea (an ideology that is prohibited by law).
    Who will philosophically comprehend the situation when, in the presence of democratic freedoms in all spheres, our society is stalling in its development with the complete prosperity of the leaders of this society? Here, even without alien regressors, much has already been stolen and appropriated.
    1. +21
      28 May 2023 05: 14
      Quote: U-58
      So what do we practically do?


      Changing frames because the main problem is up there ... when no one is responsible for anything. I screwed up - I got a new portfolio and another position, they put in a second one, then 3-4-5 and so on ... and this is a problem in all industries. You can, of course, say that the capitalist system is unsuccessful, and you need to return to socialism ... but after all, the USA / Germany / Japan succeeded, but no matter how hard we try, it doesn’t work ... there is no personal responsibility for failures, and there is no effective state machine management, which would ask for the result of the work ...... sad but true.
      1. +3
        28 May 2023 07: 23
        Quote: Aleksandr21
        USA / Germany / Japan succeeded, but no matter how hard we try, it doesn’t work ...

        The same USA, Germany, Japan... will not let you get out. Sanctions will be introduced. A trade war will be declared (like China).
        1. +1
          28 May 2023 14: 57
          Yes, it's not so simple. Here the Japanese wanted to create a regional jet passenger aircraft. We got ready-made mattress engines for it, systems and components from all over the world. Well, just an analogue of Superzhdet, but Mitsubishi. Spent $2 billion on R&D. AND! The project is curtailed, closed. And these are the Japanese + the entire Western world to help. Did not work out. We now have one and a half hundred superjets flying with might and main, and the output is an imported version.
      2. +2
        29 May 2023 00: 13
        I want to talk about the capitalist system. It is different everywhere, because the mentality of the population is different, and the timing of the formation of the capital system is also different. Here are Bulgaria and Estonia. Became both capitalist and members of the EU, but people live very differently. Bulgarians are much poorer. As for capitalism in Russia, it is quite crippled from the word cripple. We do not have a lot of things for its normal functioning.
    2. -5
      28 May 2023 06: 11
      And I would buy a Zhiguli now, a new one, of course, even if it is not as comfortable as modern cars, but the price-quality ratio is many times better. Might as well buy a new one every year... laughing
      1. +15
        28 May 2023 07: 25
        Quote: -Paul-
        And I would buy a Zhiguli now

        A hundred thousand would have cost, and not like now one and a half million - do not understand why.
        1. +8
          28 May 2023 10: 03
          Quote: Stas157
          A hundred thousand would have cost, and not like now one and a half million - do not understand why.


          They would never cost 100.000 rubles, even if they were created from scratch by robots, not people. 300-400 would cost, but not 100.

          Well, if it were manual AvtoVAZ work, such a car would hardly cost less than a million.

          Any production means efficiency and economic profitability. We are really bad at this. The Cathay people have been saying for a long time that it is simply unprofitable to create any kind of production in Russia from scratch. They work very poorly, slowly, with very big problems with quality. But most importantly, there is too much bureaucracy and all sorts of chains, through what should go through, and where you have to pay, including through all the muddy schemes of various cuts. As a result, such products become simply prohibitive in price and have no chance.
      2. +2
        28 May 2023 13: 31
        Yes. In an accident, the chances of fins sticking together are also an order of magnitude higher
      3. 0
        29 May 2023 17: 02
        The same "Niva" continues to be produced with minor changes. But the price for it does not seem low, almost all units are from the same "classics" from the same "Lada".
    3. +2
      28 May 2023 07: 02
      Quote: U-58
      How to answer the author's questions? And to whom?
      Here you read a lot of fantastic literature, then the Military Review, and somehow suddenly a conspiracy theory arises.

      yes, the Fifth Column, purchased by Boeing and European companies, will not let Russia build aircraft. How much has already been written about this, especially on engines.
      1. AUL
        +13
        28 May 2023 09: 08
        Quote: carpenter
        yes, the Fifth Column, purchased by Boeing and European companies, will not let Russia build aircraft.

        And you estimate at what level this "fifth column" operates. These are not some bloggers, and they are not "bulled with the Strudinians", who, apart from making some noise, can do nothing. There are really "big people" in serious positions!
        1. +5
          28 May 2023 09: 36
          This time. And two - in the current state in Russia there is simply no one to do it. No personnel, no design bureaus, no factories. Formally, everything is there, but in fact ..... And how much time and money will it take to at least restore this? Not to mention the fact that much can not be restored. It's easy to break / privatize ....
          1. +2
            29 May 2023 11: 35
            To someone and for nothing. You can do something if there is demand. And in our country, all the money is accumulated by a small part of the population, which takes them over the hill, does not pay taxes, and all the rest not only live on a penny, but also the state supports them from them. That's the whole reason.
    4. +16
      28 May 2023 08: 13
      What does "democratic rights and freedoms" have to do with it? With "democratic rights" Putin rules longer than general secretaries. And Yeltsin would have ruled if his health had allowed it. The choice in favor of curtailing creativity and scientific and technological development is completely conscious. The president's "adviser" voiced it: "Soviet education prepared a human creator, and we need a qualified consumer." Of course, this gray shadow voiced not its own thoughts, but more serious structures, which, back in the 70s, headed for curtailment, since scientific and technological progress deprived them of sources of income, and in the future led to the transfer of power from the hands of the financial oligarchy to the hands of scientifically - technical block. One replacement of the internal combustion engine would lead to a chain of social changes with unpredictable consequences.
      1. +7
        28 May 2023 08: 25
        "Soviet education prepared a human creator, but we need a qualified consumer" - these are the words of a certain Gref ...
        1. +4
          28 May 2023 08: 52
          Fursenko. Jumped out of the cooperative "Lake".
        2. 0
          28 May 2023 13: 34
          In the novels of the Strugatskys, only if - about the world of Half a day
    5. +3
      28 May 2023 09: 01
      Some progressors, or rather regressors from distant cosmic depths, have been introduced into our civilization and successfully hinder its scientific, technical and social development.

      You are not far from the truth. Only these regressors from our planet are called “agents” of influence.” In the 90s, we had enough of them.
      Moreover, they are often used in the dark, for example, by issuing grants for dead-end projects, and when the topic develops, it is competently shown to our leaders and state money begins to be pumped into it.
      An example is hypersound. fellow
      1. +1
        28 May 2023 09: 37
        In the 90s??? They got divorced earlier...
        1. -1
          28 May 2023 10: 53
          There was, for example, such Gvishiani, who headed the State Committee for Science and Technology. Penkovsky worked there...
          1. Eug
            +2
            28 May 2023 11: 52
            Gvishiani was not only deputy chairman. SCNT, but also the head of the Institute for System Analysis in ... Vienna, through which Gaidar, Chubais, Aven and many more passed ... and for all that, Gvishiani was the son-in-law of A.N. Kosygin ...
            1. 0
              28 May 2023 13: 10
              Apparently, that's why he was appointed representative of the USSR in the Club of Rome.
          2. +1
            29 May 2023 13: 40
            There was, for example, such Gvishiani, who headed the State Committee for Science and Technology. Penkovsky worked there...

            And the recently deceased Deputy Minister for Science and Higher Education Kucherenko, who is still a cadre, now with Starovoitova, now with Nemtsov, now with drugs, then ...
            Was there anyone to appoint?
    6. PPD
      +2
      28 May 2023 12: 54
      Maybe for a start it’s worth remembering who the question is,
      What would you change the answer is nothing but PR.
      So do not be surprised that there is nothing but PR.
      Maybe for a start in priorities what to change?
      And the planes will appear there!?
    7. +2
      28 May 2023 17: 32
      Quote: U-58
      political system, system of state idea

      there is a nuance .. have you heard about f16? flew under capitalism - in the amount of several thousand .. is it really about capitalism?
    8. +2
      28 May 2023 20: 08
      As a result, tricksters have money, engineering and craftsmen are at the minimum wage, and there are simply NO products.

      You can get rich quick in resale, you can also get rich in manufacturing, but very slowly.
      We opened up to the West not for cooperation, but as a sales market, a huge market that saved the West from a severe crisis.
  5. 0
    28 May 2023 04: 46
    I saw this disaster in every detail ... a heavy impression was left of the helplessness of the dead pilots ... they could no longer jump with a parachute or land a plane ... this is fate.
    Russia is unlucky with new cargo and passenger aircraft ... no progress. request
    What is it?
  6. +31
    28 May 2023 04: 51
    Quote: non-primary
    To be honest, I'm already tired of Skomorokhov!

    Write a better article... hi let's appreciate ... I don’t have the talent of a writer, otherwise I would fill up VO with my articles like Samsonov and Skomorokhov.
    And Skomorokhov does the right thing by writing on burning topics ... let him sometimes write controversially ... but he does the job, and is not silent.
    1. -2
      28 May 2023 17: 12
      let him sometimes write controversially ... but he does the job, and is not silent.
      - so you can do it, no talent is needed for this. Write!
      1. Alf
        +2
        28 May 2023 19: 50
        Quote: Reklastik
        no talent is needed for this. Write!

        And you get a meaningless set of words. You can write ? There are no problems.
  7. +13
    28 May 2023 05: 19
    In general, there is always a way out, but so far there is no desire from either mo or towers to find it as soon as possible (including in aircraft construction). At the same time, a parallel reality is being built with beautiful slogans and promises of those involved in the collapse to do something by 2025 (when none of them will be in the country, most likely).
  8. +14
    28 May 2023 05: 20
    There is a story with the SU-27. The first prototype flew and its characteristics were recognized as poor. Made another in a short time and now it flies great. There is another example with the TU-22 and TU-22M Why not do the same with the IL-112v?
    The conclusion from the article turns out the whole thing is in the brains and incompetence. And yet, everyone is engaged in aviation, or not at all.
    The design of the aircraft is not breakthrough, the characteristics of the aircraft are average, in principle, any average aircraft designer with an average technologist can bring the aircraft to mind, since there are no talents and geniuses.
    Weight can also be dealt with using titanium alloys and composite materials.
    And why not modify the old engine with the AN-26? if the new one does not want to fly into any. 30 years of working on it is cool. Reminds me of the carriage maker from the "Formula of Love".
    The thing must be done, gentlemen, and not an imitation of activity. soldier
    1. +2
      28 May 2023 18: 18
      What I would like to add. The characteristics of IL-112V and An-26 are the same. Differences: a different arrangement of the chassis and the wing area of ​​the IL is less than 10 square meters. meters. The engines are about the same in terms of power. The IL-112V, as I understand it, was made simply to spite Ukraine, although they understood that the country needed such an aircraft, of this type, simple and economical.
      There is such a western transport aircraft "Spartan" it differs from the IL-112V a little in size by a little more than five percent, so I would copy it. The carrying capacity is 10 tons, the speed is approximately the same as that of the IL and AN-26, the range is twice as long. Reminds AN-8.
      Such a modern aircraft would suit everyone, both military and civilian. soldier
  9. +7
    28 May 2023 05: 27
    As a person who is far from aviation, I personally am most interested in the following question: what is the problem with creating an engine? Well, let not the best on the planet, but it is quite working and in the given parameters? Tea is not the ISS, where everything is still unknown, gas turbine engines are already being built for a century, the technologies are generally understandable, and you can do without ruffles and buns until you learn how to do it. What is the problem with making GTD? There are no people, brains, hands from well. Or the Moon in the second house? I really don’t understand, well, it’s like unlearning how to make sandwiches. Yesterday I knew how, today I forgot, and ask a neighbor for a break
    1. +6
      28 May 2023 05: 47
      yes, because no one who sits in high offices needs it ... so it becomes another "pulling the blanket" - this is a great topic to beg for endless subsidies "for re-equipment", "redesign" ("AvtoVAZ" has been like that for 20 years exists, quite successfully for top management, so similar scenarios can be turned in the aircraft industry)
      ps we are waiting for two more similar series - ms21, ssd100, God forbid, so that without human casualties ...
      1. -5
        28 May 2023 13: 50
        AvtoVAZ products for the poor population in terms of price / quality combination - what the doctor ordered
    2. +14
      28 May 2023 05: 57
      In the aerospace industry, forgetting is a harsh reality, and an everyday one at that. Look, the Americans ditched the documentation for their F-1 for Saturn. And that's it. And it's not because they're stupid. The technique is complex and much lies not in the drawings and descriptions, but in the minds of people.
      I see several problems with the engine development: The development was not particularly forced or financed. And now there is a demand, but there is no money. New funds still need to be somehow knocked out (in the sense of substantiating).
      And manufacturers, too, as a rule, are technologically under-equipped. What's in the shops, what's on the stands.
      The system of Soviet engine building is broken. I remember well how cooperation between enterprises worked in those days. Including quite often, informal cooperation, when the aircraft factory directly turned to the engine engineers with a request to do or test something. And everything was done by call from director to director.
      And now for such things you need to lime 500 kg of paper, 6 months of time and an immeasurable amount of nervous energy.
      That's where everything is in place. With, of course, peppy reports to the top
    3. +18
      28 May 2023 06: 06
      What is the problem with making GTD? There are no people, brains, hands from well. Or the Moon in the second house? I really don’t understand, well, it’s like unlearning how to make sandwiches. Yesterday I knew how, today I forgot, and ask a neighbor for a break

      The problem is not with the engine, although that is part of the problem. The commission has not yet published conclusions about the causes of the disaster, and therefore no work is underway on this aircraft, reminiscent of a cat from Voronezh, with
      streets of Lizyukov, who turned into a hippopotamus.
      Fulfilling all the wishes of the customer in the face of the Moscow Region, the designers, not wanting to be left without work, took up this obviously unfeasible project.

      The launch of the An-26, the main transport aircraft of the Moscow Region, from the beginning of design to the launch in production in 1968, took 4 years. As the author correctly noted, without computers and 3D modeling. But computer simulation played a bad joke on the fate of the Il-112V aircraft. In an effort to save on design, they managed with computer simulation, and not full-scale for testing and verification in a wind tunnel. And the main thing that is checked is the acrodynamic quality of the aircraft. Those. the ability to fly.

      The quality of the aircraft shows how far the aircraft will be able to fly (glide) with the failure of all engines from a height of 1 km. For modern aircraft, the maximum quality is approximately 12 to 18 units.

      This is the ratio of drag to lift.
      An-26 air. the quality is 17.
      The Il-112V, with its hippo fuselage and wings smaller than those of the An26, had a record number of 21 air quality ... but this number was obtained using computer modeling, and not in a wind tunnel and was not tested for real at TsAGI. . This aircraft simply could not physically have such a quality, and, accordingly, plan normally. And leave the tales about the melting of aluminum rods for the press. Therefore, even when empty, but having lost the thrust of one of the engines, it simply fell down, even with a feathered propeller, as the investigation showed.
    4. -1
      28 May 2023 06: 11
      We need industrial espionage. The main problem is no resourceful, erudite designers.
      1. +1
        28 May 2023 08: 21
        Quote: Konstantin Shevchenko
        We need industrial espionage. The main problem is no resourceful, erudite designers.


        In the Soviet years, they were intensively engaged in this - both in the military commissar and in civilian life. Only it was of little use, if not to say that he was at all.

        My childhood friend worked in the design department of ZIL, where Soviet member carriers were created. They completely dismantled American limousines and British Rolls-Royces there, tried to copy. Something was possible like suspensions, but it was not possible to copy the mechanics. Even now, the Chinese, with their industriousness and craftiness, cannot completely copy the complex automotive mechanics.
        1. +7
          28 May 2023 09: 08
          Something was possible like suspensions, but it was not possible to copy the mechanics.

          It seems simple to everyone, take it, copy it, make a drawing ... but in fact, you can copy complex mechanics and make an appropriate drawing. But ...
          About two years ago they called me and asked if I knew anyone who could make one machine for machining in Moscow? And at our previous job we made three or four such installations for them, they were sold to Belgium, Poland and Chelyabinsk. But the plant was resold, and the people were dispersed, and it turned out that no one could make a workable installation. This company, which ordered from us, developed the documentation, and we adapted the drawings for our production, shamanized a little and did it. It is not enough to have blueprints, you must have equipment, materials, and, above all, qualified personnel from a constructor to a painter. We still laughed, they will let the rocket be made, we will do it, it will take off, but where it hits is none of our business.
        2. +1
          28 May 2023 09: 34
          I agree, it is difficult to make details without special equipment, and most importantly, formulas: physical, mathematical, chemical, technical. Industrial espionage is necessary, it allows you to avoid many mistakes, to be more precise, to learn from the mistakes of others, to have at least some conclusions. Western capitalists do not disdain espionage.
          1. +5
            28 May 2023 10: 54
            the most important formulas: physical, mathematical, chemical, technical.

            What are the formulas? What are you about?
            So that the gears in the boxes do not buzz on the Frets, formulas are not needed. It was just necessary not to change top managers, but to change the technology and make equipment for gearing, and not shaving gear teeth as in the middle of the 20th century.
            Il-112V just tried to calculate all the aerodynamics using formulas, without resorting to full-scale tests. It's like in Formula 1, all teams have special programs for calculating and modeling aerodynamics, but those teams that have wind tunnels win. And even during the races, the design is adjusted. And the rules limit the time of work in the wind tunnel.
            1. -2
              28 May 2023 11: 26
              You yourself write you need to change the technology
              to change the technology and make equipment for gear rolling,
              Did you come up with this yourself or did you get it from somewhere? Before you do something, you need a calculation, otherwise who will give you money for experiments? There is a wind tunnel in Russia, but the problem again rested on the gas turbine engine. Write a letter to the company offering your service to improve TV7-177 without any formulas, all you need is....
              1. +7
                28 May 2023 11: 55
                Did you come up with this yourself or did you get it from somewhere?

                This was the topic of my thesis.
                And nothing rested in the GTD. It rested on something else, in the fact that the aircraft industry fell into private ownership. And also the fact that the graduate of the Faculty of GTD, who came to me for an interview, had no idea about threads other than metric.

                Write a letter to the company offering your service to improve TV7-177 without any formulas, all you need is....

                What for? Bread doesn't go in your belly. Recently, I was asked for advice on how to precisely control the temperature of the blade when testing at extreme conditions. And so everything was invented a long time ago, the problem is in the materials and, accordingly, in the resource, and this is checked only by tests, and not by formulas ... These theorists with formulas would go to hell, the paper will endure everything, try to do it.
            2. Eug
              0
              28 May 2023 12: 46
              Interestingly, do you have to pay TsAGI for purging a pipe in the AD, or does VASO have its own?
              1. +6
                28 May 2023 13: 18
                The problem is not in the pipe, but in the heads. Perhaps someone doubted the performance characteristics of the aircraft, and they told him about quality 21, like an average glider.
                Maybe they got screwed

                Well, I don’t trust such people, on the left is an agronomist, on the right is a specialist in Roman law
      2. +1
        28 May 2023 09: 15
        We need industrial espionage. The main problem is no resourceful, erudite designers.

        Do you think you created IL-112 from scratch? Unsuccessful CASA C-295 clone.
        1. +6
          28 May 2023 11: 02
          Do you think you created IL-112 from scratch? Unsuccessful CASA C-295 clone.

          The designers did not clone this aircraft, it was just that the generals from infatheria wanted to have the same one and they simply copied its performance characteristics into the terms of reference so as not to rack their brains. Such fashion was all foreign better.
          1. -6
            28 May 2023 11: 23
            Quote: Konnick
            it’s just that the generals from infatheria wanted to have the same one and they simply copied its performance characteristics into the terms of reference


            In this case, the generals have absolutely nothing to do with it. They only set the task for the designers, what kind of aircraft they need, with what characteristics and performance characteristics. Well, they don’t really care how the designer will fulfill this tender
          2. -3
            28 May 2023 21: 06
            So the plane is really good. By the way, such a "fashion" was under Stalin. Li-2 or PS-84 is an American Douglas.
            1. +1
              28 May 2023 23: 39
              Li-2, this is not a copy, but a licensed Douglas DC-3.
              An example of copying is the Tu-4, an almost complete copy of the American B-29.
    5. +3
      28 May 2023 08: 33
      Once, on an excursion in a scientific center, we were told that the gas turbine engine is an integral indicator of the technical development of the country.
    6. 0
      28 May 2023 13: 36
      If it's so simple, why the number of countries that are so powerful can be counted on the fingers. And you don't have to take off your shoes to do it.
    7. +4
      28 May 2023 17: 20
      As a person who is far from aviation, I personally am most interested in the following question: what is the problem with creating an engine?
      - and for a passenger car, what is the problem to create? Only 4 wheels to turn! laughing
  10. +3
    28 May 2023 05: 51
    The author's attack on the IL-112 is understandable. Ilyushin really lost his competence in design. It is obvious. But hitting TV7-177 surprises. They put it on the serial Mi-38, they use it on TVRS-44 and Il-114. It's too late to change it.
    1. +10
      28 May 2023 06: 12
      as far as I understand, the original version of TV38 is on the mi7, and not modified like on an airplane ... besides, the operating modes of the engines of a helicopter and an airplane are distributed "a little" differently
      ps and you can’t call a large series of mi38
    2. +7
      28 May 2023 08: 27
      Such a decision (on the choice of engine) was made by the design team and directly by the chief designer, perhaps it was even before Rogozin, and for many years before him salaries in aviation were cheap, so it seems that the project was doomed from the very beginning, it was necessary to prepare a design school , which we have already forgotten how to do, one desire is not enough, you also need to have qualifications. We have everything as always, no matter where you throw it, there is a wedge everywhere, without an engine there is no aircraft, we must start with the engine. I remember I specifically went to the website of the design bureau that develops engines and looked at how much they offer engineers there, something at the level of 45 tr. Well, what kind of salary is this and the engine.
    3. +1
      28 May 2023 19: 29
      The "serial" Mi-38 is not viable with this engine, only with the promising PDV-4000 there are more or less chances.
    4. +3
      28 May 2023 21: 10
      The Mi-38 has a smaller series than the Nimitz-class aircraft carriers.
    5. 0
      29 May 2023 13: 56
      But hitting TV7-177 surprises.

      TV7-117ST
      The Voronezh and Ilyushin Design Bureau tried to switch the arrows to the Klimov, but it did not work out.
  11. +13
    28 May 2023 05: 57
    Quote from Bingo
    There are no people, brains, hands from well. Or the Moon in the second house?

    You totally guessed...
    The old school of aircraft designers died with them ... the new ones have bucks in their heads instead of brains, and when the sensors are hammered into the rocket with their hands from the priests ... you involuntarily think ... it would be better if these imitators of vigorous activity got under the tram on Anushkin oil.
    1. +3
      28 May 2023 17: 00
      Sensors used to be hammered in under the Union. Only then did the military acceptance, which Serdyukov ruined, work normally.
  12. +9
    28 May 2023 06: 01
    It is very significant that from 1933 to 2014, that is, for 81 years of work, VASO had THREE (!!!) leaders: Sergei Vladimirovich Ilyushin himself (from 1933 to 1970), his student Genrikh Vasilyevich Novozhilov (from 1970 to 1997) and Viktor Vladimirovich Livanov (from 1997 to 2014).

    Actually, this is a list of the leaders of the Central Design Bureau (now the Aviation Complex named after S. V. Ilyushin (PJSC Il)).
    And here is the list of directors of the Voronezh Aviation Plant (there are not 3 (THREE) of them at all)
    Directors of the Voronezh Aviation Plant:
    Lyakhovsky K.S. (1930-1933);
    Medvedev M.D. (1933);
    Klevtsov P.A. (1933-1934);
    Chernyshov V.N. (1934-1937);
    Shabashvili S.M. (1937);
    Shenkman M.B. (1938-1942);
    Serdyuk V.K. (1943-1944);
    Smirnov V.N. (1944-1955);
    Belyak K.N. (1955-1957);
    Belyavsky G.A. (1957-1965);
    Danilov B.M. (1965-1975);
    Shumeiko A.G. (1975-1976);
    Mikhailov A.G. (1976-1998);
    Salikov V.A. (1998-2005);
    Shushpanov M.N. (2006-2008);
    Zubarev V.Yu. (since 2008).
    (https://vrnbiz.ru/biznes-voronezhskogo-aviastroeniya)
  13. +10
    28 May 2023 06: 07
    As a person far from aviation, he could never understand why it is impossible to produce, albeit morally obsolete, but new aircraft of the old model to replace physically obsolete flight copies ?! If there is a need for them, make the old model, slightly modernize and do it.
    With ships, tanks, missiles and other things, it rolls?!
    1. +4
      28 May 2023 06: 15
      here is the financial side of the issue - you won’t earn much to restore old documentation and put into production an obsolete aircraft, and even changing the name will not help much here (armored vehicles and howitzers are an example for us)
      1. Eug
        +3
        28 May 2023 12: 52
        100%, do not compare how much you can "master" on the development of a new one, especially "unparalleled in the world" or "import substitution".
      2. +4
        28 May 2023 13: 38
        Not all components are made by the factory itself. That is, it is necessary to restore the production of subcontractors.
    2. +3
      28 May 2023 07: 58
      Quote: -Paul-
      why, to replace physically obsolete flight specimens, it is impossible to produce, albeit obsolete, but new aircraft of the old model ?!

      An-140 did the same.
      1. Eug
        +4
        28 May 2023 12: 56
        The same problems - with the same TV7-117 engine, centering and, as a result, a very short daily operating time. The director of the Kharkov aircraft plant has been seeking improvements from the Antonov ASTC for more than one year, but he has not achieved it. Uninteresting for senior management...
    3. +7
      28 May 2023 13: 47
      There was some kind of wild srach on the network on this topic - regarding the possibility of the United States to resume production of the "lunar" Saturn V launch vehicle. Like, if they can’t restore it, then they didn’t produce it and didn’t fly to the moon. Such is the variety of moonsrach. As I understood from the answers of a few adequate participants in the discussion, it is, in principle, possible to restore production. Only it will be an order of magnitude more expensive than a new one to develop and produce. Because the entire production chain will have to be restored, along with subcontractors, many of which are no longer there, while others have long been converted into production. And together with materials that are no longer produced today. And the standards for the production of old materials are sharpened for old measuring instruments, which also no longer exist.
    4. +2
      29 May 2023 11: 48
      Quote: -Paul-
      As a person far from aviation, he could never understand why it is impossible to produce, albeit morally obsolete, but new aircraft of the old model to replace physically obsolete flight copies ?!

      Because they were made in the USSR with its internal cooperation. Do you want to make An-26/32? OK, where can I get a domestic engine - did the original one remain in Ukraine?
      In general, aircraft engines have been the Achilles' heel of the domestic aircraft industry all their lives - since the days of "damned tsarism."
  14. +2
    28 May 2023 06: 28
    we stopped making engines? Missing Lyulka Kuznetsov Mikulin?
  15. The comment was deleted.
  16. +14
    28 May 2023 06: 30
    To build an airplane, you need a different way of thinking. And so that we are not told about import substitution, the current government is only capable of "trading the Motherland". It's a shame, it's a shame, but we can't do anything anymore. Mediocrity, just like that, power will not be given away!
  17. +3
    28 May 2023 06: 44
    For comparison, the An-26, which was planned to replace the Il-112V: development began in 1964, technical documentation was transferred to production in 1968, and already on May 21, 1969, the first flight of the An-26 was successfully carried out. 5 years of work and how many years of service.

    In fact, it began to be exploited in 1973. And the engine with which it was equipped was already developed.
  18. +6
    28 May 2023 06: 54
    with the current Kremlin leadership, there will be nothing but parades and noodles on the ears, the wedding general only knows how to talk about #unparalleled in the world#
  19. +16
    28 May 2023 07: 18
    But something says that the Russian military transport aviation will have very troubled and difficult times ahead.


    Novel! I'll tell you more! Troubled times are coming in almost everything!!!
    Creation was replaced by speculation ... Today in Russia they skillfully steal, and even stipulate this theft by laws. Some fight, others line their pockets...
    They turned the working man into a laughingstock and amuse themselves with foreign agents, bloggers and other clowns.
    Today in the country flatterers and saints are honored. Nepotism and family ties entwined all spheres of life.
    Moscow property owners in Kemerovo raise rental prices so that 9 sq. meters of retail space cost the price of paying for four three-room apartments ... From whom, one wonders, will the entrepreneur get these more than 20 thousand? It is clear from whom - from the buyer ...
    * * *
    One thing is joyful that there are (still left) people in the country who care about where the budget funds go. At least that's how the questions are raised. At least they stir up this swamp of indifference...
    * * *
    Just a disgraceful situation!
    Thieves are not capable of creation, and their minions can do nothing but knock out profit in any way ...
    * * *
    That's what drives them into a frenzy with the thought of socialism, Soviet power and an exceptional measure of punishment for outright sabotage ... It would be more correct to call such ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE.
    There are enemies, because the people in their reign wither away and are no longer capable of reproduction ...
  20. -3
    28 May 2023 07: 26
    Is there any sense to "drag" into the sky TV7-117
    There is, definitely. And they've already taken it. TV7-117ST-01(2), 01 - for IL-114, and 02 - for Ladoga TVRS-44. In January of this year, Rosaviatsia certified this engine with "full digital control."
  21. +8
    28 May 2023 07: 47
    Need...need...need...need....need

    Yes, it is useless to reanimate a long-dead Soviet dead man. And this concerns not only the aviation industry, but even, for example, the revival of the production of Soviet cars - the task for the current technical level is simply unbearable. All these industries were created exclusively for the Soviet planned economy and therefore will not physically work in the current environment of state capitalism. We had every chance for a smooth transition to the capitalism of these enterprises, but left everything as it is, so now all the top management of all high-tech enterprises is frankly cutting state billions into mirages of promises and profanation of vigorous activity.

    And it's time to come to terms with the bitter truth that our level is to sell raw materials exclusively. The era when we were a scientific and technological power, we successfully pissed off without any chance of revival.

    ps And this is the key to the answer: why aren’t we [Russia] considered not only a superpower, but in general an authoritative country that has the right to talk about its world ambitions and generally demand some special respect for itself as an authority teaching others ...

    pps If over the past 15 years we have only been talking in the media about all our sores and other problems, then we would have a pretty good chance to change something for the better. But over the past 15 years, only 2 topics have prevailed in all our media: "How cool everything is in chocolate" and "Bad West". And to raise sore topics that all our enterprises saw billions without any return and where the state funds allocated for development go - this was not discussed in our media. The background was artificially created that under the leadership of the wise tsar-father everything is going well and in general we are developing in the right vector
    1. +8
      28 May 2023 08: 13
      Sad to know that you are absolutely right.
      The state will be self-sufficient only when all spheres of the economy are harmoniously developed in it (in any era).
      The same Hanseatic League flourished not only from well-developed trade, but, first of all, from the fact that material production was rapidly developing in the German lands.
      And if the merchants had not invested in it, things would not have gone further than a pottery shop from the word at all.
      And in our realities, traders who have grown to the state of an oligarchy and write laws exclusively for themselves, keep the level of production in the paradigm of that very shop.
      The increase in capital was due to access to "muddy water" - the world trade market, to which they issued a one-sided product - oil, gas, coal.
      And as isolation broke out (the reasons are known to us), this scheme falls into turmoil with a bang.
      And none of "these" will even lift a finger.
      300 dead presidents arrested but not invested in their country.
      Well, joke with her! The comrades are personally packed with money so that their great-grandchildren will have something to leave for their great-great-grandchildren.
      And the country, the people - for them everything is an ephemeral substance. If the country dies, then it will die anyway, if it survives, then it will survive anyway. Great Gogol looked at the centuries ahead
  22. +6
    28 May 2023 08: 19
    Alyoshenka is not to blame... but who stood up for him? In part, those who were arranged for his father in Roskosmos (nepotism) and those who themselves arranged a karachun for this plane. Let's remember the story of the purchase of an Audi for 8 lyam, with which Alexei Rogozin began work in IL, for the same money, which was canceled only due to public outcry. Karaulov wrote everything well and somewhere in the comments they wrote that the engineering personnel, having looked at all this, went to another corporation, the "newcomers" began to design the aircraft. So we completed the design ... When a leader begins his work with arranging a luxurious life, it is difficult to expect that it will end in something good in technical terms
    The Il company headed by Rogozin announced a tender for the purchase of an Audi A8 car on lease for 8,5 million rubles. It is reported by "The Rambler". Further: https://news.rambler.ru/other/40076211/?utm_content=news_media&utm_medium=read_more&utm_source=copylink
  23. +5
    28 May 2023 08: 21
    The whole problem is in the ugly social and economic system that we now have in our homeland, where money replaces everything, from mother to motherland! Please tell me where to get specialists, if children go to study not by vocation, but for those specialties that will be highly paid in the future! How can you create a good technological thing without the creative inspiration of an engineer, but just for money!? Yes, and good money at such enterprises is received only by effective managers, while workers and simple engineers are sitting on the drain! Problems, as we see not only this one enterprise! The Il enterprise is a mirror of the entire aircraft industry, mechanical engineering and machine tool building in Russia! Yes, just take it and look at the construction of the Vostochny cosmodrome, the pride of Russia, it seems that special attention should be paid to it, but no! How many marriages, embezzlements were revealed, how many persons were brought to criminal responsibility, but the pace of its construction and quality does not change! It is necessary to change the approach of those in power to this life or themselves, then everything will begin to change! Without building a socially just society, the pace of development of the country in all areas of industry, education and culture at an advanced pace is simply impossible - this is an axiom and whoever does not understand this is doomed to lose in the global championship of world powers!
    1. +9
      28 May 2023 08: 33
      Yes Yes. The American dream we chased in 1992 was not for everyone. And for the chosen few, who have chosen themselves for a better life.
      Accordingly, we have not built "our" America for ourselves. We have developed a wild-Asian construction similar to the Horde, where the khan and his viziers are in chocolate.
      So we got what we have.
      1. -1
        29 May 2023 13: 59
        Yes Yes. The American dream we chased in 1992 was not for everyone. And for the chosen few, who have chosen themselves for a better life.
        Accordingly, we have not built "our" America for ourselves. We have developed a wild-Asian construction similar to the Horde, where the khan and his viziers are in chocolate.
        So we got what we have.

        The rich must have servants. Everyone can't live well under capitalism.
  24. +2
    28 May 2023 08: 30
    By the way, no one paid attention to the fact that the wing area of ​​the Il-112v is rather imperfect, therefore, it is obvious that the gliding qualities of the aircraft are deteriorating. The project itself needs to be finalized, the construction of new samples and tests
  25. +2
    28 May 2023 08: 31
    The thick fuselage and narrow wing look somehow awkward. Probably because of this, it flies badly :)
    1. Eug
      +3
      28 May 2023 13: 05
      A narrow wing has a low inductive drag, with an equal area and a similar profile and twist, a narrow wing outperforms a wide wing in terms of aerodynamics (but not strength).
      1. +1
        28 May 2023 21: 06
        This is understandable, but it is not only narrow, but also the span is small, therefore, problems with lift and roll stability. You can compensate by increasing the power of the engines, but as it turned out, judging by the comments, there are problems with the engines.
        1. +1
          29 May 2023 14: 03
          You can compensate by increasing the power of the engines, but as it turned out, judging by the comments, there are problems with the engines.

          It turned out that if one of the two engines failed, this behemoth could not fly. With a far-fetched aerodynamic quality as much as 21 units, like an ordinary glider without an engine.
          Here is Voyager with quality 20
  26. +10
    28 May 2023 08: 36
    Quote: Oberst_71
    we stopped making engines? Missing Lyulka Kuznetsov Mikulin?

    Well, for a salary of $ 700 (in the USA this is how much a barista receives part-time), there are not very many engine builders who need to study for 5-8 years along with graduate school.
    https://hh.ru/vacancy/77283950?from=vacancy_search_list
    from 36 tr. before taxes...
    1. +5
      28 May 2023 09: 21
      Quote: Patriot228
      Well, for a salary of $ 700 (in the USA, this is how much a barista receives part-time) there are not very many engine builders for which you need to study for 5-8 years along with graduate school


      This was all relevant around the 90s, when everything was completely falling apart, but there were many qualified specialists.
      Now you can pay engineers a salary of at least $10.000 a month, it won't solve anything at all. We simply have nothing to take such qualified specialists from. Saudi Arabia and the Emirates are simply buying up scientific and technical brains for huge salaries. We, in our market for training specialists, simply have nothing to buy.
      1. +7
        28 May 2023 13: 32
        Well yes...
        I'm a 1997 graduate.
        Six years of study! Control systems for rocket and space objects and complexes of aircraft - this is what my specialty was called in 1991 at the time of admission ..
        Six years later .... Master of Engineering and Technology "System Analysis and Management".
        But the bottom line is that we, as specialists, were kind of needed back in 1997 by our factories, but the factories could no longer offer competitive salaries and the prospects were rotten.
        Comrades from the Rocket Center came to us in the 4th year, like let's come to us now for practice and then to work after college .... they offered a salary that was 10% more than my increased scholarship .. Well, why do I need it was this Rocket Center???
        They were optimized to the point that then they began to take girls to work from the pedagogical institute.
        No one else went to their salary.
        So think - what can a graduate of a pedagogue come up with, and not a specialist who has been trained for 6 years in specialized subjects, including secret ones.
        So right now, financing in our science is like a jar of spiders !! Everyone is fighting for funding. And then the reports are riveted.
        1. -1
          29 May 2023 14: 17
          Control systems for rocket and space objects and complexes of aircraft - this was the name of my specialty in 1991 at the time of admission.

          To what such narrow experts. It is necessary to prepare a good engineer, thinking and inventive, well-versed in materials science, theoretical mechanics, electrical engineering, strength of materials. It is the exact sciences that contribute to the development of neural connections in the brain. And you need to acquire specialization already at work, since former students teach at most institutes. During my working life as a designer, chief designer, I worked in several industries and was able to apply the knowledge gained, for example, in the foundry industry in bridge building.
          I can also give an example of how recruiters from banking structures come to the Faculty of Mechanics and Mathematics and Physics of Moscow State University for brains. My son has two former classmates working as analysts in banks, mine went into science, a fanatic. Recruiters said - we need smart ones, and debit and credit can be taught even to a monkey, and only people with brains can graduate from the mechanics and physics of Moscow State University.
  27. +5
    28 May 2023 08: 50
    Personally, I do not see any prospects and chances for the domestic aviation industry at all. And not only in the civilian, but also in the military. To give birth in the hardest agony of some kind of civil aircraft with an astronomical cost and a production rate of 3 pieces per year (if you're still lucky) is still a pleasure. But most importantly. no answer to the question: and why do we need it at all, if it is stillborn in advance? Of course, they will immediately answer me: "but this is ours, not subject to sanctions!"
    So maybe it was necessary to slightly reduce the ambitions of the phantom pains of the USSR and not bring Russia to sanctions?

    ________
    You can watch YouTube videos of how modern Airbuses and Boeings are produced - how much high-tech robotics is there, working with jewelry precision and replacing human hands. And then look with bitterness at the production of domestic aircraft, where, like 70 years ago, everything is done by hand.
    1. -7
      28 May 2023 10: 48
      Quote from iran
      You can watch YouTube videos of how modern Airbuses and Boeings are produced - how much high-tech robotics is there, working with jewelry precision and replacing human hands.

      Wow ... That's about Boeing, you are VERY in vain. For general development, from a person who understands this issue professionally:
      https://afirsov.livejournal.com/tag/Боинг
      For example
      And when (with pomp, as expected) the first assembled Dreamliner was rolled out, it lacked not only equipment, but even hatches and the same bolts - there were holes in the skin. The journalists called the roll-out “Potemkinskaya”, once again offending the Serene Highness. The production left a special impression on the press: “... all the free space was filled with equipment and tooling, which was more reminiscent of the assembly lines of the 1960s than the “lean production of the XNUMXst century” planned by Boeing.

      https://afirsov.livejournal.com/450216.html
      ...What You Wanted to Know About Lean Manufacturing but Were Afraid to Ask

      Here Boeing is just the standard of hand-to-hand, multiplied by denseness. About Airbus is also somewhere there, ask how they delivered liners with holes in the coating to Qatar for the World Cup, and massively
      1. +5
        28 May 2023 14: 54
        Quote from Bingo
        Here is Boeing just the standard of hand-to-hand multiplied by denseness
        Well, yes, yes, the same "Dreamliner":
        Machines built (as of April 2023): 1054;
        Operated: since the end of 2011.
        Cars lost/accident victims: 0/0.
        Yes, there were accidents, but not a single disaster with the Dreamliner.
        And yes, dense rukoshops ...
        Quote from Bingo
        with pomp, as expected
        Just the same, with pomp was the first flight of the Il-112V. I remember how this was covered, including on VO, how comments were minused, where they dared to talk about the problems of the aircraft. How "Made by us" and other "blokhery" choked with "netalogues" and "Pindos and NATA envy us." That's where the pomp and unrestrained yelling was.
  28. -5
    28 May 2023 09: 43
    A very beautiful plane, it is a pity that the bird will not fly. In general, I feel some kind of weakness for such aircraft.
    1. +7
      28 May 2023 10: 43
      Yes, the cadaver is the same - I'm talking about the plane. Reminds me of a man who does not look after himself in years with a huge beer belly.
      1. +1
        28 May 2023 17: 25
        Well, tastes, as they say, do not argue.
        I like modern whistles much less than turboprop or piston aircraft.
        Tu-95 is a handsome man. There is a certain charisma and personality in it, and the Tu-4 is completely beautiful.
        1. +4
          28 May 2023 23: 58
          and Tu-4 is absolutely beautiful

          Still would. Boeing B-29 "Superfortress" - the most advanced heavy bomber of the period 1943-1947.
          Pressurized cockpit, centralized weapon control.
          The aircraft served as a model for the development of the world post-war heavy aircraft industry (including for the Tu-95, by the way, which also traces its pedigree).
          The chief designer is Bulgarian Arsen Yordanov (who, by the way, is the designer of another famous aircraft, the Douglas DC-3, known in the USSR under the name Li-2).
  29. +5
    28 May 2023 10: 16
    It's strange, like capitalism in the country, and with such a backlog, like the former Soviet firms "Il", "Tu", "Yak", their production capacities and personnel, and without the damned communists, who, as every jingoist knows, only interfered , all these Boeings and Embraers and others should make room, but the stone flower doesn’t come out, well .. but it’s getting deeper. Why? Maybe because instead of restoring the space industry, for example, orders come up with new ones.
    1. +2
      29 May 2023 14: 21
      It's strange, like capitalism in the country, and with such a backlog, like the former Soviet firms "Il", "Tu", "Yak", their production capacities and personnel, and without the damned communists, who, as every jingoist knows, only interfered , all these Boeings and Embraers and others should make room

      Good designers fled to other industries when capitalism came. The succession is gone.
  30. +7
    28 May 2023 10: 39
    How long can the service life of An-22, An-12 and An-26 be extended?


    1) They are hardy and there is still room to extend.
    2) Now there is a big question, but is an An26-dimensional aircraft needed at all? For example, China removed its An-26 from the 90s production lines. The Americans did not build such an aircraft either. Italian-American - C-27 died from less than 100 sides, and there Lockheed was engaged in breaking through to the world market. The only successful aircraft is the S-195, but this is an MFS for pallets - the conversion of the cabin for the transportation of l / s, moreover, an aircraft with a civilian fuselage section (and not a pot-bellied one like the C27 or Il).

    3) It follows from the first one, but is a puzatik needed? When they developed the requirements for Ila, they were impressed by C27. However, the C-27 is larger and has a payload reserve. A tritely modern Tiger or other armored vehicle Il-112 will not take out in terms of mass. All projects faced the same problem, it is banal:
    - Cars are heavy now and higher and higher. At the same time, there are practically no situations when it is necessary to carry exactly one car, usually it is always recruited for the conditional Hercules of equipment and related cargo.
    4) An-12 can be replaced very cheaply, just extremely cheaply at all levels (maintenance, training of personnel, moderate growth in performance) - load Mishustin on the next visit and buy a Y-8. Moreover, they do not need so much. The plant produces them like sausages, the reviews are excellent, they fly all over Asia-Africa, you can feel them in Venezuela and Kazakhstan.


    1. +2
      28 May 2023 11: 05
      Those. should we buy a Chinese clone of a Soviet car and be happy?
      1. +11
        28 May 2023 12: 09
        Tough times, tough decisions. No, you can certainly invest 200 billion rubles and 15 years of promises. And in the end, get nothing.

        Restoring the An-12 for release does not make sense. Simple and corny, a market under China and a used ear. They will contact the sanction only for free or with an additional payment for being taken away. Russian market - 30-50 cars. On this volume, nothing will pay off. And in the realities of our time, this is 10 years of promises and billions of not rubles spent.
      2. +1
        28 May 2023 19: 40
        Exactly. Nevertheless, we must accept the fact that, as Soviet heirs, they turned out to be useless. And set feasible tasks - like the Il-76 with PS-90A.
    2. Eug
      +7
      28 May 2023 11: 33
      This is how the Y-8 was made by the specialists of the Antonov ASTC according to a clear and COMPETENT TOR - a tie-in into the fuchelage, a new wing (speed increase), engine thrust throttling up to 90% to increase efficiency. As a result, we got very well balanced transport characteristics. And the IL-112, as for me, does not combine volume and load capacity well, it turns out a very large midship.
  31. 0
    28 May 2023 10: 52
    You have not been active as a commentator for a long time (write comments). Voting is prohibited.
  32. +2
    28 May 2023 11: 05
    Manturov knows what he is doing ... well, but the Pogosyans, Dvorkovichi, Khristenki and others are waiting for the money to be brought in again in the bombardier
  33. +11
    28 May 2023 11: 05
    Notice.
    The management, having a Soviet backlog, factories, employees, personnel, and using practically "gratuitous labor" in comparison with Western companies, I think somewhere in a Boeing an engineer is definitely not 45-60 tr. receives, even under such conditions COULD NOT. And that those who failed this project again "chocolate" got a job in the state. structures. This is negative selection in action. Hence the result, there was a disruption of the state defense order, for example, fly out of the industry with a wolf ticket, and with the whole team of managers or look for work in commercial companies, no, again they climb to the Sovereign's feeding trough, so that both the driver and the car and the salary of a million, drag friends , acquaintances ... And in order to attach such a caudle somewhere, it’s necessary to expel someone from the enterprises, so we don’t have any talented designers in the state. sector or talented managers have long been eaten by "ours and ours."
    1. 0
      31 May 2023 22: 11
      Well, there are a lot of questions, actually. For example, why for almost 20 years all financing issues were resolved through banks with double-digit interest rates. The result is huge debt. Something similar is now happening in the construction industry, in fact, they are building with the money of banks. As a result, prices rise and, again, not yet huge, but rapidly growing debts, which can only be transferred to buyers of apartments in a mortgage, to which the crazed buyers are no longer in a hurry.
  34. +1
    28 May 2023 11: 13
    Quote from mixail sherbakov
    Those. should we buy a Chinese clone of a Soviet car and be happy?

    now China is buying engineers en masse. We are specialists for them who have not found a use for themselves here, they are aircraft for us. We are starting to supply not only natural resources to the market, but also trained personnel.
    1. +4
      28 May 2023 11: 39
      Quote: Patriot228
      now China is buying engineers en masse. We are specialists for them who have not found a use for themselves here, they give us planes


      This is clearly not about our specialists. We still have specialists in only one area - in the field of sawing and disbursement of funds. And of course, Russia is very rich in professional bloggers and rappers.
      But to find a professional plumber in Russia now (or some craftsman like a carpenter) is not an easy task.
  35. 0
    28 May 2023 11: 22
    There is only one answer: the irresponsibility of the authorities.

    Grudinin... was imprisoned for something else. What is his 3.7 million compared to the billions spent "in the wrong direction" in Roskosmos (according to the Accounts Chamber). As a fact, 3.7 million is only one and a half of Rogozin's salary. (and not the biggest one was there)

    As a result: the elites are happy, the commoners are puffed up ...
  36. Eug
    0
    28 May 2023 11: 24
    So it seems that the same TV114-7 is on the IL-117, and it is also on the An-140. For some reason, it does not work out to make an engine with a front shaft output, although, it would seem, there are long-established and reliable AI-20, 24.
    1. +3
      28 May 2023 11: 46
      The IL-112 had a forced modification. And these attempts to squeeze power out of the engine failed. The one on the IL-114 received a certificate at the end of last year. Although it is also scary how they fly passenger.
    2. 0
      30 May 2023 12: 39
      UEC is not about design - it's about financial flows. There is no organization that has accumulated all the competencies in terms of design and development (from no one, not only from us).
      The St. Petersburg design bureau is concentrated on HELICOPTER engines, hence the centrifugal compressor on TV7-117, which makes it problematic to boost the engine in the same dimensions and weight.
      The AI-20 is based on the developments of the Ivchenko Design Bureau + the NK-4 documentation transferred from Samara at the command of Khrushchev. Let me remind you, this is in Zaporozhye))).
      Launching into production and fine-tuning a "foreign" design is still a pleasure. Our efficient roam is launching the AI-20 series on the basis of repair production and repair documentation. An experimental copy, of course, will be made. And the series will be launched ... Better not. There is an intelligent (according to preliminary studies) version of the engine based on the NK-4, but, naturally, it has larger dimensions (the axial length is longer). But a full-fledged OCD is from 5 years (if again, they don’t save on something important). It would probably have been taken up if the UEC (as the last time TV7 was finalized) admitted that it was impossible to obtain the specified characteristics. If this had been announced in 2014, then (subject to funding by the Ministry of Industry and Trade, which did not have these expenses in the program) the new engine would have already happened with a reasonable probability ... And so - just wait)))
  37. +8
    28 May 2023 11: 28
    The problem with this IL is a symptom of many similar ones, showing the degradation of the high-tech industry. One of the main problems is the created "vertical" management structures (holdings, concerns, etc.), outwardly similar to Soviet ministries, but essentially different. It's about people and their motivation. Mostly professionals with experience in developing technology and organizing its production, who knew how to get results, got into the ministries. The result is a model of technology with improved characteristics, the organization of the production of a series, the solution of a new problem (satellite launch, nuclear fleet, etc.).
    Now in the governing structures the tone is set by "effective managers" - retired officials, retired military men, friends and relatives of high-ranking figures. Their motivation is "regulation of cash flows", and the formation of uplifting reports to the authorities. What kind of IL is there, Tu or something else should be created under their "control", while it does not matter.
  38. -4
    28 May 2023 11: 29
    The main problem of the IL-112V is that the requirements in the terms of reference have been brought to the point of absurdity. Trying to fulfill them, we got what we got, not meeting the weight requirements. Despite the fact that the wing area is only 65 m2 versus 75 for the An-26. Of course, advanced mechanization makes it possible to improve takeoff and landing characteristics, but the stalling of an aircraft in a crash is precisely the result of a relatively small wing area.
    At the same time, only aviation amateurs and money sawers can call for abandoning this project and starting a new one. After all, with all the shortcomings, the refinement of this aircraft is possible and it will cost much less than the development of a new one.
    1. -3
      28 May 2023 11: 44
      Does such a basic customer need it, MO? Small series and stupidity will cost more than closing the project.
      1. -4
        28 May 2023 12: 05
        Quote: Jonny_Su
        Does such a basic customer need it, MO? Small-scale and stupidity will cost more than closing the project


        You wrote some nonsense. If we assume that this IL will become the same magnificent machine as the IL-76 was at one time, then there would be no end to Western buyers. There would have already been a queue for years ahead.
        1. +2
          28 May 2023 16: 58
          Please specify who and when among the "Western buyers" ordered the IL76?
      2. +1
        28 May 2023 14: 25
        Does such a basic customer need it, MO? Small series and stupidity will cost more than closing the project.


        An-26s are not eternal, what will you order to replace them with?
    2. +1
      28 May 2023 11: 49
      Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
      The main problem of the IL-112V is that the requirements in the terms of reference are brought to the point of absurdity


      Well, in what way are these technical data brought to the point of absurdity, if in all respects, compared with Western counterparts, there is nothing fantastic or breakthrough in this IL, but it is completely inferior to Western counterparts?
      Another pathetic attempt, without qualified personnel, to make a completely mediocre aircraft at least somehow close in its parameters to Boeing or CESA
      1. 0
        28 May 2023 15: 26
        Well, in what way are these technical data brought to the point of absurdity, if in all respects, compared with Western counterparts, there is nothing fantastic or breakthrough in this IL, but it is completely inferior to Western counterparts?
        Another pathetic attempt, without qualified personnel, to make a completely mediocre aircraft at least somehow close in its parameters to Boeing or CESA


        A breakthrough machine is not needed. All you need is a workhorse.
  39. +3
    28 May 2023 11: 41
    I agree with Roman, it looks like it's better to close an unsuccessful project. Everyone has them, an effective solution is to close them in a timely manner and not drag out "horror without end".
    I remember there were transport modifications on the Tu-204 and Il-114 with a large loading hatch on board. I wonder if the PS-90 will fit there, for the transportation of which the Il-112 was designed. These are at least two live projects.
    1. +1
      28 May 2023 19: 47
      There was a Tu-330 project, if desired, it could be revived, but they lobbied more for the Il-276, which also failed the competition in India, and is unlikely to be implemented now.
      1. 0
        2 June 2023 16: 09
        The IL-276, in my profane opinion, looks more workable than the incomprehensible outdated Tu-330. It has engines and common solution nodes with the IL-76.
  40. 0
    28 May 2023 12: 07
    Quote: Jonny_Su
    I agree with Roman, it looks like it's better to close an unsuccessful project. Everyone has them, an effective solution is to close them in a timely manner and not drag out "horror without end".
    I remember there were transport modifications on the Tu-204 and Il-114 with a large loading hatch on board. I wonder if the PS-90 will fit there, for the transportation of which the Il-112 was designed. These are at least two live projects.

    Some kind of mismanagement .... Sooner or later the engine will be finished, the design will be lightened, I want to note that many samples of military equipment before becoming reliable machines for a long time brought to mind. Do we have personnel that have become better since then? In general, a lot of time has passed and probably some better alloys have appeared and sooner or later the engine will be ready. Too much work and blood has already been invested in this project to just take it and bury it.
    1. -1
      2 June 2023 16: 02
      From above, the need is closed by IL-76, yes, more expensive, but nothing will stop. From below, in container cargo, it can be replaced by the Il-114, which now looks healthier. And as I understand it, they will promote the IL-276 project, for which there are already engines and units unified with the IL-76.
      Launching an unnecessary expensive project into a series is mismanagement. And from the buried money you can only get experience.
  41. +3
    28 May 2023 12: 22
    Well, wow ... another epiphany.
    About the 112th it was written and rewritten and it has long been known that it was stillborn. And the best option for him (and everyone) is to close the project.
    Drank already in the sweetness, it's time and honor to know.
    1. -1
      28 May 2023 15: 27
      Well, wow ... another epiphany.
      About the 112th it was written and rewritten and it has long been known that it was stillborn. And the best option for him (and everyone) is to close the project.
      Drank already in the sweetness, it's time and honor to know.


      And what about the An-26 instead?
      1. -1
        28 May 2023 16: 11
        do you need it?
        1 - Nuna first estimate, but will it be needed and where?
        2 - if "the pancake came out lumpy" then they throw it away (and they don’t regret it, and with moans and dances with a tambourine they try to correct it for beauty). For the sake of decency, one could pretend that it should have turned out that way ... it's just that this is it ... strange. To score and start designing a new one.
  42. -7
    28 May 2023 12: 58
    By the gloomy title and epigraph, which inspires the reader with hopelessness and defeat, one can easily recognize the author of the article, well, of course, this is Skomorokhov
  43. +2
    28 May 2023 13: 12
    First:
    The author clearly has no information about the development of this product. What exactly are his problems (they are, it's obvious).
    The author's sources of information are rumors from the Plant (Voronezh, of course, the city is not small, but not very big either) and nonsense from the press, and everything that has been published about this program so far is not close to the truth.

    Second: there is some kind of glitch in the interface, it was not possible to supplement the comment of the respected AA17 about the role of the General Designer, so I am writing a separate comment.
    The bias is not only in the department of financial flow management from technical managers, it affects the initial setting of the task by the Customer (there is the same problem).
    If we compare the cost of R & D, in which the Ministry of Industry and Trade acts as the Customer (RRJ / SuperJet, MS-21, PD-14) with comparable topics of the Moscow Region (in particular, Il-112, TV7-117), then the difference hurts the eye. This imbalance, in particular, leads to the fact that in the programs of the Ministry of Defense, ground testing of structures and systems is not funded in the proper amount. At the same time, everything is provided for in a number of programs of the RF Ministry of Defense. That is, savings are allowed on development elements that ensure the safety of using products.
    Somewhere between the KLA and DOGOZ, bench tests are cut off with a broad gesture, but there is no technical control of these decisions. In the case of the products considered by the author (Il-112, Il-114 (here only the UAC frolic), TV7-117), a significant amount of bench testing is not funded in all programs. In addition, for many years of underfunding of conceptual studies, a process was going on, well reflected in the film "Pentagon Wars". Violated the principle of "first platform, then saturation." To cram everything at once, on the first try and without full-scale working out of work in the complex ...

    And the third: "Reporting on time" is now more important for an official than everything else at the system level, alas.
  44. +10
    28 May 2023 13: 17
    Quote: Bledar
    By the gloomy title and epigraph, which inspires the reader with hopelessness and defeat, one can easily recognize the author of the article, well, of course, this is Skomorokhov

    Well, that’s right, they have been silent for so many years, and now our army is dragging this tacit conciliation on itself ... So I think that, for example, the call will affect me, as I remember some leadership bought jeeps for several million and they didn’t have anything for it, so the anger rises. I remember watching how much a bulletproof vest costs in September of that year, it’s under 60k from a factory in our suburbs, people are constantly buying medicines for the hospital, fees are going on, and someone is sitting in state corporations with a thick mug. "The hand reaches for the revolver" otherwise the mood cannot be conveyed. People are already at the limit, how long will this all continue? We are at war! And the country's leadership is in some strange half-asleep.
  45. +6
    28 May 2023 13: 29
    Well, according to the new tradition, they will buy ready-made serial transport aircraft in China and rename them to some kind of Bogatyr and the problem is solved.
    1. +3
      28 May 2023 14: 01
      No, better let it be Dobrynya!!!)))
      1. 0
        28 May 2023 21: 26
        ABOUT! Like for Dobrynya. "And what, did they allocate money for this ?!"
        1. +3
          28 May 2023 23: 48
          From domestic parts? Our fatherland? (THX. There, the whole number can be pulled apart for quotes
  46. +7
    28 May 2023 14: 19
    What prevents our KLA from doing the same? After all, today it is “We can repeat” on every corner, so let's repeat!

    The question is rhetorical, and the answer to it is simple - those who are now in charge of everything and cannot repeat anything in principle, they have different goals and objectives. In my opinion, this issue is becoming obvious to an increasing number of citizens. sad
  47. aba
    +3
    28 May 2023 14: 27
    In fact, our planes do not fly due to the availability of money and the lack of specialists. Strange!?
    Nothing like this! Money must be invested in something, but in Russia again capitalism, and again a period of capital accumulation. And how to accumulate it!? Steal and the second option, sell. They sold everything that could be sold: entire factories, industrial buildings, research institute buildings, equipment under the pretext of modernization ... Well, they stole. From anywhere and everywhere.
    All this took on such a massive character that the bulk of the population became sellers, security guards and managers. And they can build at least something, not to mention an airplane!?
  48. -3
    28 May 2023 15: 15
    Quote: Konnick
    What is the problem with making GTD? There are no people, brains, hands from well. Or the Moon in the second house? I really don’t understand, well, it’s like unlearning how to make sandwiches. Yesterday I knew how, today I forgot, and ask a neighbor for a break

    The problem is not with the engine, although that is part of the problem. The commission has not yet published conclusions about the causes of the disaster, and therefore no work is underway on this aircraft, reminiscent of a cat from Voronezh, with
    streets of Lizyukov, who turned into a hippopotamus.
    Fulfilling all the wishes of the customer in the face of the Moscow Region, the designers, not wanting to be left without work, took up this obviously unfeasible project.

    The launch of the An-26, the main transport aircraft of the Moscow Region, from the beginning of design to the launch in production in 1968, took 4 years. As the author correctly noted, without computers and 3D modeling. But computer simulation played a bad joke on the fate of the Il-112V aircraft. In an effort to save on design, they managed with computer simulation, and not full-scale for testing and verification in a wind tunnel. And the main thing that is checked is the acrodynamic quality of the aircraft. Those. the ability to fly.

    The quality of the aircraft shows how far the aircraft will be able to fly (glide) with the failure of all engines from a height of 1 km. For modern aircraft, the maximum quality is approximately 12 to 18 units.

    This is the ratio of drag to lift.
    An-26 air. the quality is 17.
    The Il-112V, with its hippo fuselage and wings smaller than those of the An26, had a record number of 21 air quality ... but this number was obtained using computer modeling, and not in a wind tunnel and was not tested for real at TsAGI. . This aircraft simply could not physically have such a quality, and, accordingly, plan normally. And leave the tales about the melting of aluminum rods for the press. Therefore, even when empty, but having lost the thrust of one of the engines, it simply fell down, even with a feathered propeller, as the investigation showed.

    And after all, you got another plus.
    Who told you that the IL 112 model was not blown in TsAGI?
    The plane couldn't glide... Well, this plane can't have K less than 15.
    And the control wiring from the high temperature could easily jam.
    1. 0
      29 May 2023 14: 34
      Who told you that the IL 112 model was not blown in TsAGI?

      VASO has its own pipe, but where did they get quality 21 from this hippopotamus with short and narrow wings, that's the question. In addition, funding for testing full-scale samples was limited. If it were blown in TsAGI, then the coefficient 21 simply could not be.
      .
      Well, this plane cannot have K less than 15.

      An-26 has 17. Il-112V just physically could not fly with one engine, so they tried to force the engines.
      1. 0
        30 May 2023 13: 14
        You are not familiar with modern realities. What is the easiest way to get approval from TsAGI? Right! Order him a choice of profiles and A / D layout. That's where the desired figure is obtained))) Further confirmed on the purge of scale models in ... TsAGI.
        And the interpretation of these results is a separate song. Somewhere in the 80s, one of the then Generals ordered to send the same model twice (then the design bureaus themselves made them) for purges at TsAGI and ... DIFFERENT results were obtained))) I liked the answer of industry science: "If we we’ll catch it again, we won’t blow your models at all!”
        The strange wing of this machine is a certain number of dissertations at TsAGI (they need implementations). The fact that it, for military-technical cooperation, at least, is not rational is clear from the thickness of the profile. But there is a positive conclusion of branch science (.
        And yes:
        VASO has its own pipe, but where did they get the quality 21 from this hippopotamus with short and narrow wings, that's the question. In addition, funding for testing full-scale samples was limited. If it were blown in TsAGI, then the coefficient 21 simply could not be.

        I applaud!
        And why does a serial plant need an A / D pipe? Especially if it's not there...
        Yes ...
  49. 0
    28 May 2023 15: 20
    Quote: Jonny_Su
    I agree with Roman, it looks like it's better to close an unsuccessful project. Everyone has them, an effective solution is to close them in a timely manner and not drag out "horror without end".
    I remember there were transport modifications on the Tu-204 and Il-114 with a large loading hatch on board. I wonder if the PS-90 will fit there, for the transportation of which the Il-112 was designed. These are at least two live projects.

    In vain they did not go according to the Tu 330 project.
  50. -1
    28 May 2023 15: 41
    "IL-112V: development began in 1964, technical documentation was transferred to production in 1968, and already on May 21, 1969, the first flight of the An-26 was successfully carried out."
    Oh, my friend, there were no computers at that time ...
  51. +5
    28 May 2023 16: 24
    1.
    An aircraft with the characteristics of the Il-112 is really not needed by either the Air Force or businessmen (except according to the principle “better a bird in the hand than a crane in the sky”). For bulk cargo, the dimension and kinematics of the An-26 ramp are much more successful, and for bagged and palletized cargo, the dimension C.27/C.295 is more successful (it would seem that the difference in the width and height of the floor is literally measured in centimeters - but these are just those centimeters, which “decide everything”).
    Well, the “all-terrain capability” of a tactical transport vehicle does not need to be raised to the skies - the experience of the Hercules and even the almost classmate S.295 clearly demonstrated this.
    And a simple limitation of all-terrain capability to the level of a leveled area (and not a muddy road in the jungle, as the An-32 had to), and in the middle of a turnaround flight (when up to half the fuel has been spent - and during takeoff the load is also incomplete, because the cartridges and shells are heavier than the wounded) - this is a serious lightweighting of the design (I think for a car of size S.295 - a couple of tons is not the limit), and the payload can be increased due to the reduction in overloads from jumping over bumps (oops! and this is almost S.295!) .
    2.
    A raped TV7-117 with a thrust increased by 1,5 times with the same dimensions is definitely not needed by the aircraft.
    For promising machines of the Il-112/114 class, a new engine in the 3500-4000 kgf thrust class is needed - first of all, with a dimension corresponding to the thrust. Yes, it may well be created on the basis of TV7 or it - but it must be a new engine, not limited by the dimensions of the Mi-38 engine compartment.
    ***
    Well, in conclusion - PS:
    For adherents of the IL-112 “overweight”: it is... only 127 kg from the calculated figures on the specimen that flew).
    The often pop-up figure of 2 tons is from the initially impossible wishes of the Ministry of Defense (to have a light transport aircraft in the 6-9 ton class, but with the ability to land perhaps not on tankodromes - which implies strengthening the structure and reducing the payload).
    For adherents of “incorrect alignment” - so on an empty truck it should be “incorrect” (but, of course, within the limits - which is more than fulfilled on the IL-112). Otherwise, with the load, the alignment will simply go beyond the permissible limits (or we will get large unused spaces, which is extremely undesirable for a transport worker due to the subtraction of the weight of the “extension” from the weight of the payload). And the worst thing is that science has not come up with a third way to solve the problem.
    And there is no need to drive the engine at all. TV7-117 is a very good engine in the 2500 kgf thrust class. Once again, for those who didn’t understand right away - in the traction class 2500 kgf. And the success of TV7-117 is evidenced by the deservedly successful VK-2500 - in fact, it is TV3 using TV7 technologies (except without the latter’s advantages in altitude, etc.).
    The fact that instead of starting work on a new engine in the 3500-4000 kgf thrust class, our “valiant” Ministry of Industry and Trade demanded that the Klimovites rape poor TV7... This is worse than a mistake - this is a crime. Or sabotage.
    Yes, raising the engine thrust by 10-20% of the initial one is a worldwide practice (based on the results of thousands of hours of operation on the bench and on the wing, identifying “weak points” - it becomes possible to eliminate these weak points through new materials or design solutions, and thereby raise engine thrust). However, it also happened by 30% - but only with increasing dimension.
    But, excuse me, when 2500 kgf is squeezed out of an engine of the 3645 kgf class (almost one and a half times), while being limited by the Ministry of Industry and Trade with the requirement “in the same dimension” - it is simply stupid to expect its reliable operation. The result was quite predictable :(
    1. 0
      28 May 2023 22: 17
      A raped TV7-117 with a thrust increased by 1,5 times with the same dimensions is definitely not needed by the aircraft.
      For promising machines of the Il-112/114 class, a new engine in the 3500-4000 kgf thrust class is needed - first of all, with a dimension corresponding to the thrust. Yes, it may well be created on the basis of TV7 or it - but it must be a new engine, not limited by the dimensions of the Mi-38 engine compartment.


      And there is no need to drive the engine at all. TV7-117 is a very good engine in the 2500 kgf thrust class. Once again, for those who didn’t understand right away - the thrust class is 2500 kgf. And the success of TV7-117 is evidenced by the deservedly successful VK-2500 - in fact, it is TV3 using TV7 technologies (except without the latter’s advantages in altitude, etc.).
      The fact that instead of starting work on a new engine in the 3500-4000 kgf thrust class, our “valiant” Ministry of Industry and Trade demanded that the Klimovites rape poor TV7... This is worse than a mistake - this is a crime. Or sabotage.



      Yes, you are still a “specialist”. For reference, the power of turboprop and turboshaft engines is measured in horsepower, or kilowatts. lol
      About the limited engine compartment of the Mi-38, just a “discovery”. laughing
      And about the size. Is it known to such a great engine specialist as you that the TV2-1217 engine, which replaced the TV3-117 engine, was superior to its predecessor in power 2200 hp versus 1500 hp, but at the same time the TV3-117 is lighter than 295 kg versus 334 kg and shorter, 2055 mm versus 2843 mm?
      1. +1
        30 May 2023 13: 22
        Is it known to such a great engine specialist as you that the TV2-1217 engine, which replaced the TV3-117 engine, was superior to its predecessor in power 2200 hp versus 1500 hp, but at the same time the TV3-117 is lighter than 295 kg versus 334 kg and shorter, 2055 mm versus 2843 mm?

        Yes. And between the TV7 of the 1991 model and the TV7 of the 2018 model, there was also a revolution in materials and technologies? No, my friend, we don’t understand the word “backlog” that way)))
        Sorry, no one gave money for what you are talking about.
        1. -1
          31 May 2023 20: 49
          Yes. And between the TV7 of the 1991 model and the TV7 of the 2018 model, there was also a revolution in materials and technologies? No, my friend, we don’t understand the word “backlog” that way)))
          Sorry, no one gave money for what you are talking about.


          So TV7 was initially created taking into account new technologies. And an increase in power as the engine is mastered always occurs. You could even say that the new engine was initially derated.
    2. 0
      30 May 2023 13: 18
      But, excuse me, when 2500 kgf is squeezed out of an engine of the 3645 kgf class (almost one and a half times), while being limited by the Ministry of Industry and Trade with the requirement “in the same dimension” - it is simply stupid to expect its reliable operation. The result was quite predictable :(

      They also asked to reduce the weight)))
  52. +3
    28 May 2023 16: 34
    Without touching on theft and incompetent managers.
    We now have a crisis of technological backwardness in all areas.
    1. Without a long-term program for machine tool building and microelectronics production, this backlog cannot be solved.
    And machine tool building and electronics require engineers. And in order to get engineers, you need to divide schools according to the level of motivation and abilities of students. It is impossible to create a single program for both the future actor and the future engineer. And most importantly - it is not necessary. Some will feel stressed and angry that they cannot cope with the task, while others will reduce their potential among TikTokers and lazy people.
    We have reached a situation where schoolchildren are copying all their homework from the Internet. The requirements for the Unified State Exam are decreasing year by year. And still, the results are falling.
    It is impossible and not necessary to cook everyone well. Don't torment future happy janitors.
    Let future general designers learn.
    2. Current moment. In my opinion, if adaptation is impossible for an amateur, compensation saves him.
    In the high-tech sector, we need compensation solutions.
    Mishustin is right. If we cannot produce an engine at the level of peak performance of our time, there is no need to waste energy. This means that a more reliable solution is needed, even if it is inferior in terms of indicators. Need a transporter? Well, you can sacrifice everything except volume.
    Let it be slow, let it be less capable of aerobatics, it’s not a fighter, after all.
    If you need to transport it, make a flying barn. But reliable, with a margin of planning. Easy to mass produce.
    All aerodynamic solutions are known, there is no need to reinvent the wheel.
    In the future, when the characteristics of alloys and processing precision are improved, please create proud horses. Now that's enough with the workhorse.
    PS:
    Maybe we just can’t afford to constantly strive to shrink the wings and inflate the fuselage? We have to be realistic, otherwise it will turn out like in that joke, “The President of the United States is forcing me to wear shorter and shorter skirts, so that soon the holster will be visible and...”
    1. +1
      28 May 2023 23: 59
      Just like that, the Unified State Exam requires graduates to remember more and more information from year to year.
      And stop blaming final exams for everything - they are not as bad as you think. The only problem with the Unified State Examination is that, unfortunately, they cannot cover very much; it is necessary to give students the opportunity to do more creative work there and so that the school itself prepares for it, and not tutors
  53. +7
    28 May 2023 16: 40
    If, as the author writes, “in 9 years, 7 general directors managed to work for VASO.” - then why be surprised? fool Previously, directors were made up of engineers who had gone all the way from a foreman, a site manager, to a supervisor. workshop, chief engineer and up to the general director. And now the factories are trying to be managed by “effective managers” who can run an aircraft factory or a hair salon - they have the same approach! fool Unfortunately, there is nothing to be surprised about! hi
  54. +5
    28 May 2023 16: 43
    I have already written about the C123 Provider, created in the 60s. Yesterday I read the performance characteristics of the C160 Transal. The twin-engine aircraft, developed 50 years ago, carries a payload of 16 tons. “Maybe something can be corrected at the conservatory?” Mikhail Zhvanetsky
  55. +1
    28 May 2023 16: 54
    ...as in the old saying about the dead: either good or nothing.
    - the proverb, in the original, goes like this: “Either good things are said about the dead, or nothing but the truth.”
  56. +1
    28 May 2023 18: 21
    Of course, all this is very disappointing and sad, the plane as a whole turned out to be good, any technical problems, if desired and stable funding for the project, can be improved and corrected, the main thing is not to waste the allocated money, but to use it exclusively for its intended purpose.
  57. +1
    28 May 2023 18: 33
    If Grudinin was fooled by three lamas, then I can imagine the organization of work at the joint venture. One thing is clear: it was not fans of their business who got to the helm, but wandering guys. I believe that the head of state should keep a tight rein on the highest personnel echelon at stoategic enterprises.
  58. -2
    28 May 2023 22: 14
    Still, it’s not worth comparing with the 1960s. Then EVERYWHERE, and not just here, airplanes and helicopters (and even tanks) were designed and launched into production much faster and with fewer pro... problems. Although computer design was in its infancy (Pierre Bezier presented his epoch-making work to the public only in 1962). Now the coordination of requirements alone may take longer than then the path from making a fundamental decision about the need for a new vehicle to the adoption of this new vehicle for service. Yes, there were failed projects, but this was the exception, not the rule. There were problems at the beginning of operation, but they were resolved in years, not decades. And the machines of that time (with modernizations, of course) still fly. And now... For comparison, the Franco-German Transal (an approximate classmate of the aircraft under discussion). At the end of 1957, the two countries decided to create a transport aircraft to replace the French Noratlas, which was operated by the French and German Air Forces. In 1959, a consortium was created for its development and production. First flight in 1963. In 1967, serial vehicles began to be delivered to the troops (they could have done it earlier, but politicians were wondering whether to buy American Hercules). Compare with the current pace of the A-400, created by the same participants.
  59. 0
    28 May 2023 22: 36
    What’s the problem with putting a PD-8 there, for example? What is bad about a helicopter engine with the Mi-17, Ka-52? I understand these are amateurish questions, but still?
    1. +1
      29 May 2023 06: 01
      What’s the problem with putting a PD-8 there, for example? What is bad about a helicopter engine with the Mi-17, Ka-52?


      It's not the engine, but the airframe itself. He just doesn't physically stay in the air. Those. If one engine fails, a stall occurs. Design error.
  60. The comment was deleted.
  61. +1
    29 May 2023 00: 06
    In my opinion, it is not advisable to simply throw away the IL-112V. There are many points that should be used in a new project. But in my opinion, under the current circumstances, the engine needs to dance. And even if the existing engine has more power than required, it’s better than repeating the fate of the Il-112V. hi
  62. -1
    29 May 2023 01: 00
    I see this everywhere, not just at VASO. Engineers and managers in our country have degraded.
  63. -4
    29 May 2023 08: 12
    The explanation of the disaster in August 2021 as an alleged problem with the TV7-117 engine is, to put it mildly, unconvincing. This engine, although new, is essentially a modification of a long-developed and well-debugged engine, produced in large quantities and brought to a high degree of reliability. At first they tried to explain the disaster by an alleged failure of the propeller feathering system, now - allegedly by surge and engine fire. In fact, neither one nor the other could lead to an almost instantaneous development of the catastrophe. There was a fire, but no surge could cause a fire with instant damage to the wing mechanization. In the event of a surge, the fuel supply is cut off, and in the event of a fire, the fire extinguishing system is activated. And in any case, an experienced crew would have enough time to report the situation and fight for survivability.

    The Il-112 crash was most likely caused by a completely atypical factor. For example, an explosive depressurization of the fuel caisson in the area of ​​the inside of the right engine nacelle. At the same time, a fire of corresponding strength broke out, the mechanization of the right wing was damaged, and the plane instantly fell onto the right side.

    Taking into account the difficult political situation in the country and the lack of necessary surveillance by special services over the most important technological processes, a version of deliberate sabotage suggests itself.
  64. 0
    29 May 2023 09: 14
    Quote: Vyacheslav Ermolaev
    Sensors used to be hammered in under the Union. Only then did the military acceptance, which Serdyukov ruined, work normally.

    There is no need for fairy tales about mega-specialists and military representatives; for the most part, they were mostly busy sitting on their pants. I can’t speak for aviation, but in the automotive industry it was basically like this.
  65. 0
    29 May 2023 10: 13
    As if a replacement for the An-26 would not have to be purchased from China.
  66. 0
    29 May 2023 10: 47
    You can throw rotten tomatoes at me, but you can throw negatives at me.
    It’s just that the whole idea with the Il-112, in my layman’s opinion, looks like an attempt (unsuccessful) to preserve the competencies of VASO. It would be necessary... But the circulation is 100 units, taking into account that some of them are undergoing scheduled maintenance, breakdowns, etc. does not solve problems in this segment of the BTA. It’s a bit expensive to carry such a weight for the maximum range, but for a shorter range the Mi-8 (17), for example, is already available. And something about the engine would have already been decided after so many years.
  67. +1
    29 May 2023 11: 44
    At the same time, China created redesigned copies of the An-2, An-12, and An-24. Draw conclusions. In a good way, you need to buy from them. But pride won't allow it.
  68. 0
    29 May 2023 12: 17
    This UAC just needs to be dispersed to hell. Not a viable organization. And the managers there are still the same. They only know how to use budget money. But they are all their own people.
  69. The comment was deleted.
  70. 0
    29 May 2023 14: 24
    there are no questions at all regarding the IL-96 program - 10 aircraft, of which 6 aircraft will be until 2024, this is normal
    The Russian Federation has no more than 25 Boeing and Airbus airliners with the same range and capacity
    UAC will soon close this niche completely (!) - you don’t even have to rush
  71. +1
    29 May 2023 14: 41
    Quote: senima56
    If, as the author writes, “in 9 years, 7 general directors managed to work for VASO.” - then why be surprised? fool Previously, directors were made up of engineers who had gone all the way from a foreman, a site manager, to a supervisor. workshop, chief engineer and up to the general director. And now the factories are trying to be managed by “effective managers” who can run an aircraft factory or a hair salon - they have the same approach! fool Unfortunately, there is nothing to be surprised about! hi

    And look at the deputy ministers of the Ministry of Industry and Trade, none of them worked in their specialty, but only studied at business schools. What can a country expect with such leadership?
  72. RMT
    0
    29 May 2023 15: 51
    I know personally how delicious it is to work in the commercial department of an enterprise...
    more?
  73. 0
    29 May 2023 16: 54
    IL-112 is a stillborn child. This was clear from conception.
    The main issue for today is the creation of a design bureau capable of solving the assigned tasks.
    Everything was filled up by Serdyukov and Medvedev and nothing has been created yet.
    There are no specialists who can think logically and outside the box. There are only representatives of the new generation who have successfully passed the Unified State Exam, who lack the concept of the honor of the country and the desire to work for society.
  74. -1
    29 May 2023 17: 51
    I will try to get to the point, ignoring the empty bickering of ambitions, causeless swearing, as well as outright enemy-mafia stuffing already going on here in the comments - like: “we are resuming production of the Ukrainian AN-70 with D-27 engines.”
    In short, in the niche of a light transport aircraft it is necessary to make a long-developed, but clogged with UKRAINIAN ENEMY LOBBY, under the guise of a “lost competition” (we know how these “competitions” are held) - MiG-110: https://ru.wikipedia.org/ wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B8%D0%93-110
    And there is an engine for it, outstanding and long ago made and tested: just do it and fly: NK-4, at one time ALSO FUCKED - BY THE UKRAINIAN LOBBY MAFIA
    https://translated.turbopages.org/proxy_u/en-ru.ru.b505212a-6474baa6-0ef391e0-74722d776562/https/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuznetsov_NK-4

    I actually went through all this destructive enemy Ukrainian lobby mafia over the past 15 years on the almost dead aviation industry website https://www.aviaport.ru/conferences/
    There, moderators consistently squeezed out patriotically pro-Russian qualified participants, in favor of pro-Western ones in general, and pro-Ukrainian ones in particular. Already 3-5 years ago they physically squeezed out (“banned”) almost all patriots there. There, just then, the supporters of the SSZh-100, An-70, An-140 and An-148 were completely “hurray-victors” prancing on white horses and expelled - then completely victorious in production at Russian factories, and on that site-forum. How they triumphed then: note how many of these enemy planes the Russian aviation industry will kill today! As many as 3 of these Trojan planes, enemy ones, driven through Ukraine were pressed into Russia! And now HERE THEY ARE INVOLVING this An-70 and the engine for it again! I even remember some of the characters who then and now run and restore order both on the “Airport” website, and in the Russian aviation press and TODAY. There was (and IS!) such a character - a prototype, who did not fall silent for long during the SVO, and at the same time it turned out that this was the Kharkov “fighter of the invisible front of the Ukrainian-fascist propaganda”! I don’t know under what nickname he is present here, but he is certainly present, and he is moving here AGAIN - “AN-70 and the engine for it” for Russia: “We kindly ask”! BEWARE OF ENEMY SPY AGITATORS
  75. +1
    29 May 2023 18: 55
    Quote from Tim666
    Quote: Vyacheslav Ermolaev
    Sensors used to be hammered in under the Union. Only then did the military acceptance, which Serdyukov ruined, work normally.

    There is no need for fairy tales about mega-specialists and military representatives; for the most part, they were mostly busy sitting on their pants. I can’t speak for aviation, but in the automotive industry it was basically like this.

    You shouldn't have been downvoted.
    Military representatives now, boys who graduated from a technical non-core university, were established through connections, and have never been to a military school or military unit for a day. But they have shoulder straps, benefits, and length of service.
    The institution of military representation has also rotted, at least in aviation...
  76. 0
    30 May 2023 13: 10
    This is the personnel policy under Rogozin. I failed silt 112v. Transferred to the ship "Eagle"

    https://news.myseldon.com/ru/news/index/212880526
    And here are the results
    https://www.ixbt.com/news/2022/11/17/orjol-poka-ne-poletit.html
  77. The comment was deleted.
  78. 0
    31 May 2023 10: 35
    The problem is gigantism, larger and more powerful, but for smaller ones, name regional users, nothing is being created .. The helicopter engine has been brewed for many years. Dviguns have been created for AN2 type aircraft and helicopters since the collapse of the USSR, and things are still there, but that’s understandable, everything that used to come into the budget now settles in the offshore oligarchy and others like them ..
  79. 0
    31 May 2023 12: 46
    As a result, when they really get into trouble, they will buy from Iran, China, India, Brazil....
  80. 0
    31 May 2023 22: 13
    After thinking about the article, I decided that it would be stupid to “bury” the project. A lot of effort, time and money were invested. So we need to bring it to mind. To do this, as always, you first need will, motivation and determination.
  81. -1
    4 June 2023 15: 52
    It turns out that Skomorokhov is also an “expert” in the field of aircraft construction! What a well-rounded person!
  82. -1
    3 August 2023 17: 47
    Quote: bk316
    And in general, let's pass the law wrote stupidity - ten years of a stricter. Wrote two relapse - life. Wrote three incorrigible - execution. Kidding.

    Well, if I’m “kidding”, then you can have 5 “zones” and 5 “chemicals”.
  83. The comment was deleted.
  84. The comment was deleted.
  85. 0
    15 September 2023 23: 56
    If the aircraft plant in Voronezh finally dies, then why the “efforts” of the Ministry of Industry and Trade aimed at developing the PD-35 for a new long-range aircraft?
    Who besides Voronezh will be able to build these giants?

    The shortsightedness and outright stupidity of the country's leadership is simply amazing, they are ready to fill KAZ with money without any guarantees for the usual blah blah, and they keep Voronezh on starvation rations....
    (where the promised 30 modernized Tu-22M3M by the year 20 from which hypersonic “Daggers” were supposed to be launched, who will be responsible for the 5-year delay in the release of new Tu-160M, now these “fairy tales” are about the serial production of 10 Tu-214 per year If previously one or two aircraft per year were released with grief in half.
  86. -1
    19 November 2023 09: 40
    to spend 30 years but still not bring the engine to fruition - this is probably only possible in today’s Russia... in such a period of time you can create three engines from scratch... critters...