Ukrainian air defense against Russian Geraniums. Means and causes of failure

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Ukrainian air defense against Russian Geraniums. Means and causes of failure
"Geranium-2" in flight. Photo AFP


In October 2022, the Russian army carried out an attack on Ukrainian targets for the first time using Geran-2 strike unmanned aerial vehicles. Now this technique is used regularly and causes serious damage to the enemy. Ukrainian formations quickly assessed the threat from the new Russian UAVs and are trying to take various measures. However, attempts to modernize air defense to combat "Geraniums" have not yet yielded the desired result.



The nature of the threat


The product "Geran-2" is a tailless UAV with a wingspan of up to 3 m and a mass of about 200-250 kg. The device is equipped with an internal combustion engine with a pusher propeller. The flight speed does not exceed 170-200 km / h, but a range of at least 1000-1500 km is achieved. The flight is carried out at altitudes from tens of meters to 3-4 km.

The drone is capable of hitting targets with known coordinates. For this, an autopilot with integrated means of satellite and inertial navigation is used. According to various estimates, it is possible to create a UAV modification with a full-fledged homing head. A high-explosive fragmentation warhead weighing 50 kg is delivered to the target.

"Geran-2" is distinguished by its simplicity and low cost of construction, which allows mass production and use of such UAVs. Partially plastic airframe makes it difficult to detect the device by radar, and inertial navigation makes it immune to electronic warfare systems.


German ZSU Gepard. Photo Telegram / "Vestnik PVO"

Detecting, suppressing or knocking out an attack drone of this kind is quite difficult. At the same time, cheapness allows organizing massive raids, and the loss of even a few UAVs will have little effect on the success of the entire event. As a result, the Russian Geranium-2s have become a serious threat to the Ukrainian military infrastructure, and the Kyiv forces cannot cope with it.

At the moment, "victories" over Russian UAVs take place only in the statements of Kyiv officials and structures. After each raid, they report on the successful destruction of a large number of drones and missiles. As it turned out recently, the declared number of downed products sometimes exceeds the number of actually launched ones. In this case, the intended targets are hit.

Barrel means


Already in mid-October, immediately after the first attacks, the Ukrainian formations began to look for ways to deal with the Russian Geraniums. They noticed that the UAV has a low speed and approaches its target at a low altitude. In this regard, an unreasonably bold idea appeared about the fundamental possibility of combating drones with the help of small arms. weapons.

Last fall, videos were massively published - and caused a corresponding reaction - videos of attempts by Ukrainian militants to fire at Gerani with machine guns and machine guns. Naturally, no noticeable results were obtained. However, these ideas have been developed. Already last year, the mass assembly of specialized "anti-aircraft self-propelled guns" in the form of a car with several machine guns began. There is no confirmed information about the successful use of such a technique.


Skynex complex on a car base. Rheinmetall Photos

Last summer, foreign countries promised Kyiv full-fledged Gepard-type ZSU. In the fall, German-made vehicles began to be considered as a means of combating attack UAVs. It is known about attempts to use "Cheetahs" to cover important objects; photo and video materials were published, allegedly showing the defeat of the Geraniums. However, in general, foreign ZSU, originally created to deal with low-altitude air targets, performed poorly.

At the end of February, it became known that the German-Swiss artillery systems Skyguard and Skynex had already set off for Ukraine. Automated turrets with 35-mm guns were positioned as a modern and effective tool for combating UAVs. However, no information about their use and the defeat of air targets has yet been received.

The reasons for the failures of barreled air defense systems are obvious. Thus, handicraft anti-aircraft installations use a visual method of target detection and weapon guidance, which cannot provide sufficient accuracy of fire. Pointing problems are compounded by the limited capabilities of small arms not designed for effective anti-aircraft fire. Full-fledged ZSU Gepard are devoid of these shortcomings - they have their own radar and are armed with 35-mm cannons. However, there were too few of them, and there were also problems with the supply of ammunition, etc.


The British Stormer HVM air defense system handed over to Ukraine. Photo Telegram / BMPD

Missile systems


Until the beginning of last year, Ukraine had a fairly numerous and developed fleet of anti-aircraft missile systems and systems of all major classes, mostly of Soviet design. In 2022, active deliveries of foreign air defense systems began, and a number of samples were decided to be transferred after the first Geranei-2 attacks. It was assumed that the remaining fleet of Soviet systems and products delivered from abroad would cope with the reflection of such raids.

According to reports, Ukrainian air defense is trying to use almost all available air defense systems against Russian UAVs and cruise missiles. Portable complexes, as well as military and facility defense systems, are used. Accordingly, a wide range of radars and anti-aircraft missiles is used.

Despite boastful reports, the real effectiveness of Ukrainian air defense systems remains extremely low. As practice has shown, air defense, built on Soviet components such as various Os, Strel, S-300, etc., cannot cope with the detection and defeat of Geraniums. Apparently, when developing this UAV, Russian engineers took into account the air defense features of potential adversaries and took appropriate measures. Foreign complexes Stinger, NASAMS, Patriot, etc. did not improve the situation.


NASAMS SAM launcher in Ukraine. Photo Telegram / "Military informant"

Now deliveries of new imported air defense systems are expected and are being carried out, and some of them are positioned specifically as a means of combating UAVs. In particular, the VAMPIRE missile system, equipped with the APKWS guided missile (modified version aviation Hydra 70) with laser beam guidance. How successful such an anti-aircraft complex will be is a big question.

The prerequisites for the current situation should be sought in the design of Russian UAVs and Ukrainian air defense systems, as well as in the methods of using the latter. "Geran-2" was created taking into account a slight decrease in visibility, which makes it difficult to detect and subsequently target missiles. At the same time, drones often hide from radars at low altitude, use the terrain and fly along the least dangerous routes.

It is known that the Kiev regime places air defense systems and other systems among urban areas and civilian infrastructure in order to create a “human shield”. However, the urban landscape can interfere with the normal view of the area by the radar forces, and also imposes restrictions on missile launches. In fact, additional dead zones are created, and there is also a risk of missile hitting houses or various buildings. As a result, the overall effectiveness of such air defense falls, which contributes to a freer flight of strike weapons.

air battles


There are reports of attempts to intercept the "Geranei" by fighter aviation forces. The Kiev regime reports on the success of such events, but in reality everything is different, and there are virtually no reasons for boasting.


VAMPIRE complex for APKWS missiles. Photo Telegram / BMPD

There are only a few confirmed attempts to shoot down the Geran-2 UAV with air-to-air weapons. At the same time, at least one such episode was conditionally successful and at the same time curious. The Ukrainian pilot on the MiG-29 was able to blow up the drone in the air, but the shock wave and shrapnel damaged his plane. The pilot ejected and the fighter crashed. Ukrainian propaganda tried to make a hero out of this pilot and talked about his heroic struggle with Geranium. The unequal exchange of an aircraft for a cheap drone was diligently ignored.

The Ukrainian Air Force cannot effectively fight Geraniums for several reasons. First of all, this is the moral and physical obsolescence of aviation equipment and its weapons. Fighters with old radars and missiles cannot timely detect, confidently escort and hit a modern UAV. In addition, there are questions about the level of training of pilots who are still able to participate in combat work.

Results and prospects


The Russian army has been using Geran-2 strike UAVs for the past few months, and during this time they have hit hundreds of various enemy ground targets. Despite all the efforts of the Ukrainian air defense, the bulk of the products successfully break through to the intended targets and destroy them. At the same time, Geraniums are not the only means for hitting distant targets. Usually they are used simultaneously with sea and air-based cruise missiles, which improves the overall results of the strike.

At the moment, the enemy, despite all his efforts and assistance from third countries, cannot fight our UAVs. The existing and expected anti-aircraft weapons do not show the required effectiveness. It may be possible to change the situation in the future, but this scenario is not guaranteed. In addition, until the Kyiv regime has a suitable weapon, the Russian Geraniums will have time to inflict additional damage on it, and a new rearmament will simply be too late.
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  1. +10
    25 May 2023 03: 51
    There is too much water and controversial conclusions in the publication.
    until the Kyiv regime has a suitable weapon, the Russian Geraniums will have time to inflict additional damage on it, and a new rearmament will simply be too late.

    "Russian" "Geraniums" have been used for more than six months, and in the past the intensity of strikes was much higher. How did this affect the course of hostilities?
    Once again, it can be stated that Ryabov's conclusions and Wishlist are shattered by reality.
    1. +4
      25 May 2023 07: 24
      Quote: Tucan
      Once again, it can be stated that Ryabov's conclusions and Wishlist are shattered by reality.

      At first I perked up: how well everything is going on at the front! And then I read the signature at the end of the article: the famous storyteller Ryabov.
    2. +10
      25 May 2023 13: 11
      Like, do you think that arrivals at locations and warehouses had no effect on hostilities? With the same success, you can write that lancets / planes / helicopters / quadrocopters did not affect the fighting
    3. -3
      27 May 2023 03: 47
      Agree. The article contains more propaganda than analysts
    4. +2
      30 May 2023 15: 03
      If the efficiency is really so low, then why are the Ukrainians working so hard on those "unnecessary" drones? The 2020 Armenian-Azerbaijani war showed that the old Soviet-made systems were ineffective against UAVs. The problem of using expensive air defense missiles against cheap UAVs in Syria was also noticed by the Russian military. I believe that the price of Western-style missiles is still much higher. So, I would think about evaluating the effectiveness of the product "Geranium" ...
      1. 0
        2 June 2023 03: 44
        Quote from: Pera_Peric
        The 2020 Armenian-Azerbaijani war showed that old Soviet-made systems are ineffective against UAVs

        A controversial statement ... Maybe the problem is in training and the curvature of the hands of Armenian pvoshnikov? You also say that it was difficult to bring down the cornfields converted into UAVs, but for the same bayraktars, etc. they had shells and not only, which they easily pissed ...
  2. +3
    25 May 2023 03: 57
    The reason is the same as it was in the First World War - there are simply no air defense systems for them. MZA have been decommissioned, and small arms, which, in fact, could well have fought Geranki ... Have you seen an anti-aircraft sight on a machine gun? And from the open, how are you going to shoot at Geranka? It's easier to point along the trunk wassat
    A classic of the genre of the present time, while some were drawing cartoons, how high-tech will destroy all opponents, you don’t even need to get up from the sofa, others made a simple fool, clumsy like a shovel, therefore unkillable. And most importantly, it is massive! While the mattresses figured out how it happened that they didn’t even have enough budget to crush the Vfgan with high-precision weapons, and switched to carpet bombing, at the same time shaking the entire park of expensive B-1b, others made Geranium, which at a price - you can aim at a dugout, the dugout costs expensive
    1. +3
      25 May 2023 04: 52
      There are no unbreakable bingo targets. The main problem is the training of air defense SPECIALISTS, even the calculations of ZSU23-4 Shilka will shoot them down after a long preparation, first at the training ground, where they will learn to work on a similar plastic target. And then shoot down real drones in battle. To work against such drones, only the manual search and target tracking mode is suitable, the radar does not see it, the plastic scatters radiation well, the screw engine also does not actually produce any radiation. Shooting down a low-speed and non-maneuvering target in flight is not the biggest problem for a well-trained anti-aircraft gun crew. The problem is in changing the route, there can be many dozens of them, and the entire airspace cannot be blocked from the ground, because it is not known where the drone is flying and what it will hit.
      1. -2
        25 May 2023 05: 11
        The main problem is the training of air defense specialists, even the ZSU23-4 Shilka calculations will shoot them down after a long preparation, first at the training ground, where they will learn to work on a similar plastic target.
        The enemy does not have time for the long preparation of a sufficient number of crews for air defense installations: they should have been prepared yesterday. Consequently, Geraniums will still bloom in their territory, hitting the chosen targets. Again, I'm not sure that the Armed Forces of Ukraine have a sufficient number of Shiloks. By the way, I think that Shilka would be one of the best air defense systems to protect against UAVs.
        1. KCA
          +1
          25 May 2023 06: 46
          Shilka does not have OLS, and the radar will not find Geranium, so if you put OLS on Shilka and Tunguska, then they will be completely against mopeds
          1. +3
            25 May 2023 20: 28
            Quote: KCA
            Shilka has no OLS

            OLS can be delivered, but this is time and money.

            Quote: KCA
            and the radar will not find Geranium

            Amendment, original The Shilka radar will not find Geranium, and the radar can be replaced, but again this is time and money.

            Moreover, they were even going to do something similar, there was an OLS in the application, and a new radar, and even the installation of a missile defense package, but something did not grow together.





            1. 0
              3 June 2023 16: 29
              Quote: And Us Rat
              Quote: KCA
              Shilka has no OLS

              OLS can be delivered, but this is time and money.

              Quote: KCA
              and the radar will not find Geranium

              Amendment, original The Shilka radar will not find Geranium, and the radar can be replaced, but again this is time and money.

              Moreover, they were even going to do something similar, there was an OLS in the application, and a new radar, and even the installation of a missile defense package, but something did not grow together.






              What kind of complex is this?
          2. 0
            1 June 2023 19: 35
            You need either a wild density of fire, because Shilka needs to get into Geranium, or a remote detonation to cut it with fragments! Today, Shilka is most likely ineffective against Geraniums. No.
            Yak52 with 12,7mm machine guns will probably be better what but it's useless at night too!
            Laser is the best solution good
        2. -1
          25 May 2023 08: 22
          Quote: Grandfather is an amateur
          The enemy does not have time for a long training of a sufficient number of crews for air defense installations:

          Seriously?
      2. -1
        25 May 2023 05: 27
        Quote: Thrifty
        The problem is changing the route, there can be many dozens of them

        Wow eat! As I understand it, the rest of the aviation travels strictly on rails, blocked it and sleep peacefully. To shoot down a low-speed maneuvering target at an altitude of several tens of meters for any infantry machine gunner of the Second World War ... Shtorkh or maize with a speed greater than Geranium, maneuvering, during the day - a suicide bomber. At night - a little easier - a searchlight and again a suicide bomber. And now we got out that he was maneuvering, and before everyone didn’t maneuver, but they were shot down! Rudel colorfully described. how he brought a bullet in his thigh - they still hit a dive bomber!
        1. KCA
          +1
          25 May 2023 06: 50
          Hit a running boar in a shooting range at a target, and the plane has a speed of 15-20 times more, even a four-handed Maxim will not really help
          1. +3
            25 May 2023 07: 39
            Quote: KCA
            Hit the target shooting boar

            wassat
            I'm already sick of it, in the bullet shooting team laughing My favorite was the exercise, although it is not Olympic ... No, they really pleased me from morning
            1. KCA
              0
              25 May 2023 08: 15
              Well, it happens that my father was also a specialist in shooting at a running boar, he was always the first number, for a moose, however, too, but is everyone in the Armed Forces of Ukraine, and in the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, such good shooters?
              1. +6
                25 May 2023 20: 42
                Quote: KCA
                but is everyone in the Armed Forces of Ukraine, and in the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, such good shooters?

                The question is exclusively in the training of personnel.
                In the IDF, for example, infantrymen are trained for 8 months with heavy emphasis on shooting training, thousands of rounds of ammunition for each fighter, hundreds of hours of exercises with live shooting for speed and reaction under the test.
                "Running Boar" after this does not impress anyone.
                There would be time, desire and resources (well, health), the rest is a matter of technology.
                1. 0
                  3 June 2023 22: 31
                  Quote: And Us Rat
                  The question is exclusively in the training of personnel.

                  Not a single hunter in my memory has fired at a wild boar beyond the range of a direct shot, and this is well, the edge is 350 meters. In the case of Geranium, the range can be different, the angles of fire too, and even if the master of sports is in the "running boar", then the UAV there is just a hell of a chance to fly away from you.
          2. 0
            3 June 2023 16: 30
            You just need a light machine gun like the German MG.
      3. +3
        25 May 2023 20: 13
        Quote: Thrifty
        Radars do not see her

        Amendment, outdated The radar does not see it.
        But you also need to be able to handle the new ones competently, you can’t change from a donkey to a racing motorcycle overnight.
  3. +3
    25 May 2023 04: 46
    It is very difficult to fight UAV mosquitoes with an air defense baton.
    We need to look for unconventional ways to fight .. create anti-mosquitoes ... anti-UAVs. smile
    Tips can be taken from Mother Nature.
    1. -1
      25 May 2023 12: 05
      Dragonfly? Are you suggesting to play the ornithopter from "Dune"? :)
    2. +6
      25 May 2023 13: 15
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      Tips can be taken from Mother Nature.

      Yeah ... and then it starts:
      “Listen,” he asked, still looking up at the sky, “who will the Hawks hunt after they have killed all the guardian birds?”

      - So how? McIntyre was taken aback. “W-well… well… well…

      “You should design something to hunt the Hawk for safety. Just in case, you know.
      © Sheckley
    3. +2
      25 May 2023 20: 50
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      It is very difficult to fight UAV mosquitoes with an air defense baton.

      It depends on which air defense system. request
  4. +11
    25 May 2023 06: 18
    I’m much more interested in what WE will do if the Armed Forces of Ukraine have the same UAVs in commercial quantities.
    1. Shooting at them with all sorts of S-400.350s is, to put it mildly, expensive.
    2. Shells too, even with a new small rocket. And the distance of destruction of the cannons of the Shell is not enough, as well as the number of them themselves, to cover all objects
    3. We have MZA in warehouses, maybe Shilka and other ZSU-23s will start to get out of the bins?
    1. +2
      25 May 2023 08: 38
      Quote: Denis812
      Shooting at them with all sorts of S-400.350s is, to put it mildly, expensive.

      The S-400 missile weighing 2 tons will do much more work in the development than a light UAV. Even if it hits a UAV, not a house. For the same reason, patriots are not used against UAVs. Former brothers have already done similar experiments.
      Quote: Denis812
      The shell is small, as is the number of them themselves

      Yes. The shell is not suitable for covering countless rear objects, it is too expensive and complicated.
      Quote: Denis812
      maybe Shilka and other ZSU-23s will start to get out of the bins?

      Ryabov rightly notes that a drone is a very difficult target for manual guidance.
      Quote: Denis812
      I’m much more interested in what WE will do if the Armed Forces of Ukraine have the same UAVs in commercial quantities.

      Nothing. Either ignore or agree on, say, "the NWO zone is not more than 50 km from the LBS." Now the ability to hit on the rear is the advantage of the Russian Federation, but this advantage is already political, not military in nature.

      No, you can, of course, lose the armagedulki again, but I would not bet on the effect of this measure.
      1. 0
        25 May 2023 17: 39
        S-400 2 tons in weight will do much more work in the development than a light UAV

        In what building? In the Russian Federation, air defense is not placed in buildings.

        Ryabov rightly notes that a drone is a very difficult target for manual guidance.

        Why manual? And Shilka and Tunguska and Shell - for all the guns work quite well for themselves, not in an open sight :) But they can work with a radar and a machine gun.

        Either ignore or agree on, say, "the NWO zone is not more than 50 km from the LBS"

        I would be all for it. if LBS were, for example, 50 km from Paris. Otherwise, again, some "independent group seized the weapons of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and set off to seize the village near Belgorod."
        1. +3
          25 May 2023 18: 36
          Quote: Denis812
          In the Russian Federation, air defense is not placed in buildings.

          Google "shell on the roof".
          Quote: Denis812
          Why manual?

          Because ZU-23-2 is mentioned.
          Quote: Denis812
          And they can work with radar and machine guns.

          The work of anti-aircraft guns "automatically" has its drawbacks.
          Quote: Denis812
          an independent group seized the weapons of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and went to capture the village near Belgorod.

          Yes, discipline is not the strongest side of the post-Soviet armies. There's nothing to be done here.
      2. 0
        25 May 2023 20: 54
        Quote: Negro
        Ryabov rightly notes that a drone is a very difficult target for manual guidance.

        Manual guidance is an anachronism for outdated technology.

        Quote: Negro
        you can, of course, rub the armagedulki again

        Until the hairs on the palms grow. laughing
      3. 0
        27 May 2023 03: 53
        You need something like the Iron Dome. Or antidrones.
    2. +4
      25 May 2023 11: 38
      So they have already appeared, I’m in Belgorod, they’ve already pulled up for the last week, only drones, from two to five to six a day in the region, they often shoot down over Belgorod, air defense saves, and flies through the villages am
  5. +4
    25 May 2023 06: 20
    Interestingly - are WE ready for the possible mass use of something like this by the Ukroreich? As you rightly noted - in Geranium there is nothing like high-tech, if desired - they can be riveted in batches. So how are we going to knock it down?

    In theory, we should have under 300 Tungusok, about which, by the way, for some reason, nothing is heard. Unknown amount of Shilok in storage. Shells are available. Even go ZSU-57-2 is somewhere. But here's the state of it all and how effective it will be - but the question is ..
    1. +2
      25 May 2023 07: 52
      Even go and ZSU-57-2 is somewhere.
      There is something they are, but without POISOT they are nothing, it was suddenly discovered back in the early 60s. The same towed S-60s had PUAZO, they worked out quite well for targets, but the mobile ZSU-57-2 did not.
      1. Egg
        0
        31 May 2023 05: 46
        And how interesting were Messers shot down in the Great Patriotic War? Without radar, without computers, without lasers and without satellites .... here the ancestors were eccentrics, they did not know that this was impossible wassat
        1. 0
          16 July 2023 14: 58
          There were radar stations in WWII, both Soviet and lend-lease. Computers were, analog, the same POISOT
    2. 0
      25 May 2023 20: 56
      Quote: paul3390
      So how are we going to knock it down?

      How what? belay
      Something that has no analogues, of course! soldier
      What a provocative question? angry
    3. 0
      27 May 2023 03: 56
      We need an early warning system that could detect such a drone at a front of 1000 km and to a depth of 500 km.
      1. 0
        27 May 2023 20: 26
        Quote: chingachguc
        We need an early warning system that could detect such a drone at a front of 1000 km and to a depth of 500 km.

      2. Egg
        0
        31 May 2023 11: 40
        Quote: chingachguc
        1000 km and to a depth of 500 km.

        For what? With a UAV speed of up to 200 km / h, a detection radius of 150 -200 km above the roof, and such a system will cost tens, if not hundreds of times cheaper hi
  6. +1
    25 May 2023 06: 21
    Quote: Thrifty
    There are no unbreakable bingo targets. The main problem is the training of air defense SPECIALISTS, even the calculations of ZSU23-4 Shilka will shoot them down after a long preparation, first at the training ground, where they will learn to work on a similar plastic target. And then shoot down real drones in battle. To work against such drones, only the manual search and target tracking mode is suitable, the radar does not see it, the plastic scatters radiation well, the screw engine also does not actually produce any radiation. Shooting down a low-speed and non-maneuvering target in flight is not the biggest problem for a well-trained anti-aircraft gun crew. The problem is in changing the route, there can be many dozens of them, and the entire airspace cannot be blocked from the ground, because it is not known where the drone is flying and what it will hit.

    The main trouble seems to be not in air defense, but in its quantity ... with a huge line of contact
    There are enough directions from where you can launch geraniums, and air defenses that can counteract them from a fairly good distance have little, if any
    And what can shoot down in line of sight ... is not in such quantity and in such a mass placed along the entire line of contact or near "important" objects, because no one warns in advance where and where the UAVs will fly, plus the aircraft themselves can fly and not in a straight line, but along a laid course / route ... previously explored by intelligence ... or by launching a handful of "false" targets ahead
    1. +2
      25 May 2023 21: 08
      Quote from Sith
      The main trouble seems to be not in air defense, but in its quantity ...

      The main problem is in the mind! Or rather, in square thinking and an absurd fear of deviating from mossy doctrines.

      Quote from Sith
      in such quantity and mass spaced along the entire line of contact

      No need, one balloon with a powerful modern radar, at an altitude of 3 km, covers hundreds of kilometers from a height of a couple of meters.


      A dozen are needed for a front of 2000 km.
      And 5-6 duty fighter units between them.
      They are the first line of defense, and air defense is just to cover the Air Force and clean up the tails.
      Indeed, on the surface, the solution is:
      1. 0
        25 May 2023 21: 27
        Quote: And Us Rat
        one balloon with a powerful modern radar, at an altitude of 3 km, covers hundreds of kilometers from a height of a couple of meters. At the front in 2000 km you need a dozen

        Well, how long will he live with you, in modern realities? In my opinion, not for long: the target is clearly visible, inactive, a peach, not a target ...

        Quote: And Us Rat
        They are the first line of defense

        D&G. Expensive and stupid. IMHO.
        1. +1
          26 May 2023 15: 40
          Quote: Repellent
          Well, how long will he live with you, in modern realities?

          Surprisingly, not a lot. There is not only a radar station like on an AWACS aircraft, but also very serious self-defense electronic warfare against missiles. And besides, he is under the protection of air defense / missile defense and the Air Force.

          Quote: Repellent
          the target is clearly visible, inactive, a peach, not a target ...

          I also thought so at first, until I learned the nuances of his defense.
          Long-range large missiles can intercept missile defense (a missile from the S-125 has already been shot down) or crush electronic warfare. After all, electronic warfare on such a fool is powered by a cable from the ground, and is capable of blinding the seeker of missiles simply due to bare power.
          And the Air Force will not let them work quietly, because they will immediately start firing back.
          Fighters will also have to deal with the Air Force and electronic warfare.
          So to shoot him down, the task is far from trivial, no easier than shooting down an AWACS aircraft, and maybe even more difficult.

          Serious danger is posed only by an enemy that has technological, professional and quantitative parity in air defense, electronic warfare and air force.
          Therefore, the use of such a scheme against the Armed Forces of Ukraine, subject to all conditions, has every chance of success. Of course, if you neglect some link in the scheme, you can grab hemorrhoids on the fifth point, but no one forces you to hack.

          Quote: Repellent
          Expensive and stupid. IMHO.

          Expensive, yes.
          Stupid? No, against a swarm of such UAVs, no one has yet proposed other methods. Or do you have a brilliant WORKING and PROVEN idea how to arrange everything easier and cheaper?
          Surprise me, tell me why you alone are smarter than hundreds of professional generals in half the world. fellow
          wink
          1. +1
            26 May 2023 16: 27
            Quote: And Us Rat
            why are you alone, smarter than hundreds of professional generals in half the world

            Elephants go north, and trolls go to Bobruisk Yes

            Your blah blah, IMHO, is unconvincing. All this is beautiful until the first meeting with an equal opponent. Israel has not met with an equal opponent for the last 30 years, more and more slippers are wet.

            Until, hi
            1. +2
              26 May 2023 18: 36
              Quote: Repellent
              Israel has not met with an equal opponent for the past 30 years

              Ahhh, I understand, you heard the word Israel and the thought process stalled, giving way to a conditioned reflex. laughing
              But if you carefully look at how the discussion began, calming your emotional impulses and trying to restart the rational thought process, then everything will fall into place. wink
              The person asked what the Russian Federation could oppose in the event of a mirror attack by drones like Geraniums from the side of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. To which I proposed this option, and given the difference in the weight categories of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation and the Armed Forces of Ukraine, it is precisely such a scheme that has the highest probability of success.
              Comprand? wink
              1. +1
                26 May 2023 18: 57
                Quote: And Us Rat
                Ahhh, I get it...

                Hush... not so loud...

                Quote: And Us Rat
                I suggested this

                You suggested something that might have worked for you in Israel. Based on personal experience. Chasing slippers.

                Israel is a relatively small and generally very well protected area. I've been to you, I know. Yes

                In the Russian Federation, the territory is many times larger, and a fence around it cannot be built. Your derizhbondel will live here until the first DRG. And she will definitely not go anywhere.

                It's simple.
                1. +2
                  27 May 2023 20: 21
                  Quote: Repellent
                  Chasing slippers.

                  Good "slippers" from which air defense is needed. laughing

                  Quote: Repellent
                  it is a relatively small and generally very well protected area.

                  Any large area is divided into "comparatively small and well protected" segments.

                  Quote: Repellent
                  Your derizhbondel will live here until the first DRG.

                  Being 50-100 km behind the front line, under the cover of air defense, air force and with good ground protection?
                  Will they cut out the security company and gnaw through the cable with their teeth?
                  Well, with this approach, it means that the PGRK will survive until the first DRG, and then it will be stolen into the seas of Mongolia. lol
                  And what is the question, is a ground-based radar better protected from DRGs?

                  Here in the subject of a proverb about a dunce and a glass phallus.
                  The method is working, and does not depend on the place of application, but on the directness of those who use it. And I am sure that against hypothetical massive drone raids by the Armed Forces of Ukraine, it will be quite effective.
                  1. +2
                    27 May 2023 20: 34
                    Quote: And Us Rat
                    The method is working, and does not depend on the place of application, but on the directness of those who use it. And I am sure that against hypothetical massive drone raids by the Armed Forces of Ukraine - it will be quite effective

                    After reviewing your commercial offer, we decided to buy ... a little of the herb that you smoke laughing

                    Until I buy. For now, I’ll fit you a DRG with MANPADS. And not one, so you don't get bored.

                    Protect yourself. Yes
        2. Egg
          0
          31 May 2023 05: 52
          Quote: Repellent
          the target is clearly visible, inactive, a peach, not a target

          Noticeable with an eye, but will the radar see it? What about IR homing heads? And you can’t see it far with your eye, in any case, much closer than this eye will see the radar or the optical system of the balloon.
          Raising the radar antenna with a balloon is a good idea, it is not clear why it has not yet been implemented.
  7. +4
    25 May 2023 06: 24
    We would do well to have analogues of Israeli anti-radar UAVs Harop and Harpy. To launch them together with Geranium-2 and destroy enemy radars.

    1. +1
      25 May 2023 13: 02
      There is an analogue of a harpy, geranium-1 is called
    2. 0
      25 May 2023 21: 16
      Quote: Sergei N 58912062
      We would do well to have analogues of Israeli anti-radar UAVs Harop and Harpy. To launch them together with Geranium-2 and destroy enemy radars.

      You can try to attach the GOS from X-31P to Geranium.
      1. 0
        3 June 2023 16: 33
        How about trying something? We also have Geranium-1.
  8. +1
    25 May 2023 08: 10
    Quote: Tucan
    "Russian" "Geraniums" have been used for more than six months, and in the past the intensity of strikes was much higher. How did this affect the course of hostilities?


    Definitely positive. Proving the opposite is difficult. But you can try. laughing
  9. -1
    25 May 2023 08: 15
    Quote: Thrifty
    To work against such drones, only the manual search and target tracking mode is suitable,


    And how many "shilok" will be required for an effective manual search for "geraniums"? So to speak, in the line of sight ... isn't it a bit too much, will the enemy have so many?
    The prepared calculation of the ZSU, of course, will be able to bring down the "geraniums". If there are 2-3-4 of them ... and if there is a truly massive raid, moreover, on ZSU positions? Will the nerves survive the calculation? More than likely, they'll just shrug off, you still don't want to die.
  10. 0
    25 May 2023 08: 19
    Quote: Denis812
    I’m much more interested in what WE will do if the Armed Forces of Ukraine have the same UAVs in commercial quantities.


    On the site, at one time, they offered a mobile installation with rackets ... from the "willow" (MANPADS), it seems. I then suggested, as I remember, to supplement the installation with heavy machine guns, with computer guidance and laser sights.
    1. +1
      25 May 2023 21: 21
      Quote: Illanatol
      I then suggested, as I remember, to supplement the installation with heavy machine guns, with computer guidance and laser sights.

      Why are you so modest? It was necessary to offer immediately with a force field, a phaser annihilator and a teleportation engine. Yes
  11. 0
    25 May 2023 09: 17
    Comrade Ehrenburg, as usual, simplifies things.

    Shahid mopeds are a fairly primitive means of destruction, which is clearly visible in any range. Therefore, they are practically useless against VS. They have two advantages:
    1. Cheapness, and through this amount.
    2. Long range, and through this again the number - this time the number of possible targets and directions of arrival.

    The means of combating them are well known.
    1. Any short-range object air defense, again in the maximum possible quantity and at a reasonable price. This task is solved by screwing anti-drone capabilities to almost any modern DBM, machine gun, grenade launcher or light gun. These things are produced by the thousands.
    2. Control of extremely low altitudes using AWACS. And not only airplanes are used: American border guards use balloons, Jews - locators on high masts. The best option is to control the possible launch zones. Therefore, shahid mopeds almost never fly from Gaza.
    3. And, of course, retaliatory (or preventive) strikes by conventional, much more effective means.

    For a number of reasons, the Ukrainian side does not fully use any of these means. Thus, shahid mopeds are more effective than they should be, and cause unnecessary euphoria in some authors.
    1. +1
      25 May 2023 13: 07
      Yes, only Israel and American bases in the Middle East will withstand a raid of geraniums from our partners, and that’s not a fact. The best defense against them is a very clear message - in response to a raid, geraniums will be a raid on the military-political leadership or something else of value.
      1. +1
        25 May 2023 18: 38
        Quote from alexoff
        The best defense against them is a very clear message - in response to a raid, geraniums will be a raid on the military-political leadership or something else of value.

        This did not protect Ukraine.
    2. 0
      25 May 2023 21: 24
      Quote: Negro
      Jews - locators on high masts

      This is 50 years ago. Today, too, balloons and drones of small AWACS.
      1. +2
        26 May 2023 08: 21
        Quote: And Us Rat
        It's 50 years ago

        In Dimon, they seem to be standing now.
  12. +2
    25 May 2023 10: 08
    We have a lot of sensible big-headed talented students, scientists, enthusiasts and just young guys.
    Give them free rein, they will invent and do a lot of interesting things.
    Rake them "in an armful" in acc. organization, to give every opportunity to implement new ideas ...

    But I "catastrophically" doubt our Ministry of Defense, the Ministry of Industry and Trade, Rostec, industry research institutes, etc. ... The system is vicious at its very core.
    This eternal "by the year 2025" ..., "by the year 2030" especially kills...
    When you need "the day before yesterday"!!!

    These "liberals-bureaucrats" can only ruin progressive ideas! And by all means!
    And they do not bear any responsibility!

    (Personally convinced in "my own skin" for 7 years of correspondence on my pistol. Who does not know - see my articles in my account on "VO")
  13. 0
    25 May 2023 11: 37
    There is only one conclusion here - we need a large plant and design bureau on this topic and the mass production of Geraniums 1-2-3-4
  14. 0
    25 May 2023 12: 00
    It surprises me why Shilka and their Polish modifications are not used?
    1. +2
      25 May 2023 12: 26
      Everything has changed a long time ago, the article is late. "Geraniums" are now used at night and not only for strike functions, but also for determining enemy air defense and here UAVs are no less dangerous than as strike ones. Whatever you write here, but the effectiveness of the use of "Geraniums" right now "We have achieved mass character and multidirectionality. As for countermeasures, there is already a video of an enemy kamikaze drone destroying our quadric. I think this is the beginning of the mass use of a UAV fighter. Both from the enemy side and from ours. In fact, everything went to this. The question is efficiency and the reliability of such an "air battle" remains open. As for the use of drones similar to our Geraniums by the Armed Forces of Ukraine. I will upset the cheers-patriots of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, the line of such drones is much wider both in terms of models and performance characteristics and, if possible, if it were not for the air defense of the border area would have been in ruins for a long time.
  15. +1
    25 May 2023 12: 24
    The means of combating them are well known... For a number of reasons, none of these means is used in full by the Ukrainian side. Thus, shahid mopeds are more effective than they should be, and cause unnecessary euphoria in some authors.

    "The means are known, but for a number of reasons, someone and for some reason does not use them to the full." In this conclusion, all the pain of the Wunderfwaffe supporters is against the effective use of the classic Volkswaffe.
    Of course, the means are known and they are used to the maximum extent, but they are ineffective and this is the whole problem.
    1. Geranium at a long distance can only be intercepted by a very expensive missile from an expensive complex. At the same time, it is very difficult to distinguish it from the bait. The huge consumption of expensive missiles is inevitable and the UAV will crush the defense by numbers.
    2. At close range, it is very difficult and expensive to protect all objects by means of close defense. An attack can always be directed against those targets that do not have protection or crush the protection of a particular object with the number of drones. At the same time, for cheap drones, it is very easy to make baits even cheaper, add REB means or homing to air defense.
    In other words, the "Volkswaffe" will always crush and be more effective than the "Wunderfwaffe", as it was unfortunate for the nailed arms manufacturers.
    1. 0
      26 May 2023 18: 07
      Quote: Kostadinov
      At close range, it is very difficult and expensive to protect all objects by means of close defense

      Quote: Kostadinov
      In other words, the "Volkswaffe" will always crush and be more effective than the "Wunderfwaffe"

      I support. And I'm worried why no one here itches about this (Ukrainian counterparts will fly, how to fend off?). Nothing has been heard about OCD Derivation for a long time. Perhaps the reason is the difficulty of mass production of compact remote fuses. But IMHO, you can go the other way, and still relatively cheaply (and therefore massively, in thousands) rivet "Volkswaffe" to protect against low-speed drones, and not only shock drones. All you need to do is put a serial DPU module + a gasoline generator on a pickup truck / trailer, and fasten an SOVA-type sound-measuring target designation system to it (modify the software for direction finding not a bullet, but a drone), i.e. the drone is preliminarily oriented to the sound, and directly aiming through the camera, even with auto-capture and auto-tracking, without an operator. Get cheap and cheerful.
  16. -2
    25 May 2023 15: 21
    In essence, the article will be brief.
    Until now, the whole world has not realized the potential of the same "geraniums" and analogues. And they haven't even started to fuss yet. But by and large, to establish massive cheap means of shooting down conditional "geraniums" - yes, spit !!! fellow 100 days and there will be a prototype, another 100 days of testing and refinement, and after another 100 days mass production. And this could be done even using the technologies of the early 90s of the last century, there’s really no need to invent anything here ... Take ready-made developments and bring to mind ... A low-flying, low-maneuverable target - pah and grind !!! am
  17. 0
    25 May 2023 19: 36
    As it turned out recently, the declared number of downed products sometimes exceeds the number of actually launched ones.
    How familiar it is ... Our television generals also shoot down and destroy everything for the second or third time.
  18. +1
    25 May 2023 20: 44
    It seems that the author is engaged in hidden anti-propaganda! winked
    Seriously: how does he know about the "bad" qualities of modern (and not so) barreled (and not only) anti-aircraft systems supplied to Ukraine ???
  19. +1
    26 May 2023 20: 29
    Geranium is a consumable - even if they shot down 9 out of 10, it's still good, it cost the enemy 10 times more than launching us. This is the approach that should be, subject to mass production, of course.
  20. 0
    29 May 2023 04: 57
    Quote: Kostadinov
    1. Geranium at a long distance can only be intercepted by a very expensive missile from an expensive complex. At the same time, it is very difficult to distinguish it from the bait. The huge consumption of expensive missiles is inevitable and the UAV will crush the defense by numbers.
    2. At close range, it is very difficult and expensive to protect all objects by means of close defense.

    But how, then, do Russian air defenses quite successfully repulse the attacks of Ukrainian drones? Or are Ukrainian drones "much worse" than the Shaheds?
  21. +1
    31 May 2023 10: 24
    I don't think they bring down enough geraniums. Rather the opposite. That's what exactly is - this is an overload of air defense with many targets and a breakthrough to the object of attack of at least part of the missiles / drones. I don’t understand optimistic reports, after 15 months their air defense remains combat-ready, moreover, supplies of Western systems make up for losses. In order for their national elite (not Zelensky, he is an Anglo-Saxon clown) and the population to start getting tired of geraniums, etc., it is necessary to start hitting hypermarkets (at night, of course), thermal power plants, bridges, overpasses, especially continue and increase fuel and lubricant bases and refineries. And here you should not spare money, remote warfare exhausts the enemy and saves the lives of our soldiers and officers.
  22. -2
    31 May 2023 15: 58
    Another Hurray patriotic article. No specifics. No statistics. "Geraniums" from the author are Russian. In Kyiv, the regime (we apparently do not). Enemies are bad and stupid, ours are good and smart. Standard screenplay for an American movie...
  23. 0
    1 June 2023 01: 42
    Well, finally, a positive article appeared on the site. And then all sorts of Skomorokhovs and Tikhomirovs tired Yaroslavn with their crying
  24. 0
    3 June 2023 16: 34
    Quote: And Us Rat
    Quote: Sergei N 58912062
    We would do well to have analogues of Israeli anti-radar UAVs Harop and Harpy. To launch them together with Geranium-2 and destroy enemy radars.

    You can try to attach the GOS from X-31P to Geranium.

    In fact, if in the Russian Federation somewhere "lying around" on sites and warehouses, until June 2022 the same Tu-123 or even KS-1 and KSShch (let me remind you that their VK-7 turbojet engines are still being delivered to the Air Force for vehicles according to cleaning the runway) - then we would have already mastered the entire Left Bank, Khutorka 404! There, the warhead was not 50kg, but 500kg. and the speed is not moped. And so we see only one starball on mass media media and on the forums! and sisters of the militia and Prigozhin on the air, and even PR named after himself from the high-poor "military correspondents" (a military correspondent is a military journalist).
  25. 0
    25 July 2023 10: 19
    Empty article. Something a lot of them divorced recently