Ukraine's air defense has become a little stronger, but much weaker

Nowadays aviation plays an important, if not decisive, role in military conflicts. How is it, the reader will ask, because in the course of the Russian special military operation (SVO) in Ukraine, it is not aviation that plays the decisive role - the main burden of the war fell on artillery and infantry?

We have already considered the reasons for this in the materials Awkward questions: air supremacy over Ukraine and its consequencesand Why Russia cannot defeat Ukraine from the air in the same way as the US did in Iraq and Yugoslavia.

Briefly, the main reasons are as follows:

1. Comprehensive information support of NATO countries - the Armed Forces of Ukraine (AFU) are promptly informed about the take-offs of Russian aircraft, early warning radar (AWACS) and electronic intelligence (RTR) aircraft monitor Russian aircraft in the airspace of Ukraine. This allows Ukrainian anti-aircraft missile systems (SAM) to work "from an ambush", not including a target detection radar (RLS).

2. A small number and, apparently, low efficiency of Russian AWACS aircraft, RTR aircraft and integrated electronic, radar and optoelectronic reconnaissance aircraft, the need for the active use of which we have also repeatedly discussed in the materials Russian special operation in Ukraine: to dispel the fog of war, Questions on the use of AWACS aircraft, reconnaissance and combat control during the NWO in Ukraine и Tu-214R in a special military operation in Ukraine: less than a year.

Apparently, the effectiveness of the use of these machines is limited, in particular, it can be assumed that the existing AWACS aircraft of the A-50 family do not see targets well against the background of the surface, and their small number allows aircraft and helicopters of the Armed Forces of Ukraine to operate in those periods when Russian AWACS aircraft do not are on patrol, which is reported to the Armed Forces of NATO by means of RTR. The same applies to the Tu-214R - there are few of them, and the effectiveness is unclear.

3. The absence of specialized electronic warfare aircraft, such as the American EA-6B Prowler or EA-18G Growler, which could cover Russian strike units designed to hunt enemy air defense systems from attacks by anti-aircraft guided missiles (SAM) - hanging containers, apparently , can not always cope with the powerful guidance radars of modern air defense systems. In general, we have an electronic warfare aircraft Il-22PP "Chopper", but again, as it is - only three cars. It is not known whether the Choppers were used at all in the NWO zone, and if so, with what result.

Electronic warfare aircraft Il-22PP "Chopper"

4. The absence of low-observable aircraft with modern electronic filling capable of detecting the radiation of the enemy’s air defense radar and attacking it with anti-radar missiles (PRR) before the air defense system itself detects and attacks them. The use of the Su-57 is, apparently, episodic - these machines are too few for a full-fledged war, and it is not clear how complete their development is.

5. At the beginning of the NMD, Ukraine had a fairly powerful air defense system, in which Soviet-made air defense systems were combined with control systems of NATO countries.

During the NMD, a significant part of the Ukrainian air defense systems was destroyed, but in parallel, deliveries of air defense systems from Western countries were also carried out. Consider how the Ukrainian air defense has changed and what it represents at the moment.

Air defense systems of long and medium range

It is long-range and medium-range air defense systems that largely determine the inability of the Russian Air Force to conduct massive air offensive operations, limited to strikes with long-range cruise missiles (CR) or actions near the front line, most often at low altitude.

At the beginning of the conflict, the basis of Ukrainian long-range and medium-range air defense was, and most likely is, the S-300PMU / PS / PT / V1 air defense systems in the amount of about 250 units, as well as the Buk-M1 air defense system in the amount of about 72 units - slightly outdated , in comparison with those available in the supply of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation (RF Armed Forces), but quite effective. Also, from open sources, the number is not entirely clear, for example, how many launchers of the S-250 air defense system does the Armed Forces of Ukraine have a detection radar? How many tracking radars? Indeed, without them, PU is of no use.

PU ZRK S-300PM1

How many of these air defense systems are left after almost a year and a half of the SVO? On the one hand, we regularly hear about another destroyed S-300 or Buk-M1 air defense system, but the enemy still does not run out of them. It can be assumed that some of the destroyed air defense systems were mock-ups, inflatable or special, highly detailed, some were simply outdated and non-functioning, also a kind of “mock-ups”. In addition, it is unlikely that the same S-300s of the Armed Forces of Ukraine are being dragged to the front line, our Air Forces do not fly deep into the territory of Ukraine now, then how will we destroy them there?

The United States is supplying the Ukrainian Armed Forces with highly detailed models of Soviet military equipment

According to open data, at the beginning of 2023 Ukraine retains more than 200 S-300 launchers with an unknown number of detection radars and target tracking radars, most of which are most likely located in the central and western parts of the country.

As for the Buk-M1 air defense system, which has a significantly shorter target engagement range compared to the S-300 air defense system, the Armed Forces of Ukraine should have significantly fewer of them, since this complex, judging by the video from reconnaissance unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) and UAVs -kamikaze of the "Lancet" type, is quite actively used to cover the ground forces of the Armed Forces of Ukraine near the front line, which means it is subjected to attacks by Russian aircraft and other means of destruction, including the aforementioned Lancet UAV.

PU with radar guidance SAM "Buk-M1"

At the same time, the Armed Forces of Ukraine also received a “new thing”, which they counted on very much - the American MIM-104 Patriot air defense system, however, so far there is only one battery, which, it seems, covers Kiev. It must be assumed that the matter will not arise for new deliveries. In the meantime, the MIM-104 Patriot air defense system is more of a political weapon, for example, the Armed Forces of Ukraine have already announced that they intercepted the Kinzhal hypersonic missile with its help - for the first time in the world.

Is it true? On the one hand, the MIM-104 Patriot air defense systems did not perform very well during the war in Iraq, when they did not always succeed in intercepting even the ancient Soviet operational-tactical missiles (OTR) of the Scud complex. On the other hand, over the past time, the United States could seriously modify the hardware and software of the MIM-104 Patriot air defense system, so anything is possible. For us, of course, this would be a slap in the face, but for the United States it would be a good opportunity to advertise and sell our weapons at a higher price, and at the same time improve their characteristics based on operating experience in Ukraine.

SAM MIM-104 Patriot

For us, the goal is just the opposite - destroy, and ideally capture the MIM-104 Patriot air defense system, poking the Americans with their noses in the dirt.

Another modern and dangerous complex transferred to Ukraine is the NASAMS-II air defense system, a joint brainchild of the United States and Norway. The ground-based versions of the air-to-air missiles used in it can hit targets at ranges of the order of 40 kilometers or more - it is sometimes said that the firing range of the NASAMS-II air defense system with the AIM-120D B-B missile can be 180 kilometers, but this is possible call into question, since when starting from the surface, the missile defense system spends much more fuel on acceleration and climb than when starting from an aircraft; after all, a firing range of about 40-60 kilometers looks more realistic.

PU SAM NASAMS-II

We have already talked about this complex and the threats that it carries in the material. AWACS aircraft of NATO countries and deliveries of NASAMS air defense systems to Ukraine will close low altitudes for Russian aviation. Fortunately, only 2 batteries of these complexes of the Armed Forces of Ukraine have been delivered so far, most likely, the Armed Forces of Ukraine will create a cluster of layered air defense in the Kiev region based on the equipment of NATO countries, capable of functioning as efficiently as possible in a group.

Also, the Armed Forces of Ukraine were supplied with one battery of the IRIS-T air defense system as part of three launchers developed in Germany. The firing range of the IRIS-T air defense system reaches 40 kilometers. According to the Ukrainian authorities, the effectiveness of the IRIS-T air defense system reaches 100%, with its help several Russian Kh-101 cruise missiles were shot down, but so far there is only a confirmed video of the destruction of the IRIS-T air defense system of the Ukrainian Bayraktar UAV Turkish production. On the other hand, it cannot be denied that this complex can be very dangerous, and that it is highly likely to shoot down cruise missiles.

SAM IRIS-T

Presumably, the Armed Forces of Ukraine were also supplied with a number of obsolete MIM-23 Hawk air defense systems, developed in the late 50s. Even taking into account the modernization, these complexes can be considered obsolete, however, with proper use, they can pose a threat. Do not forget that the MIM-23 Hawk air defense system is the same age as the Soviet S-125 Neva air defense system, with which the latest (at that time) American stealth fighter-bomber F-117A was destroyed in the sky over Yugoslavia. By the way, the Armed Forces of Ukraine also have a certain number of S-125 air defense systems.

PU SAM MIM-23 Hawk (left) and S-125 "Neva" (right)

Fighter-bomber F-117 and its remains in the Belgrade Museum

Short range air defense systems

The most advanced of them is the Soviet Tor / Tor-M1 air defense system - this air defense system can effectively shoot down all types of air targets at a distance of up to 15 kilometers. The data on their number varies among the Armed Forces of Ukraine: according to some sources, the Armed Forces of Ukraine had about a hundred Tor air defense systems at the beginning of the NMD, according to others - less than ten; the truth most likely lies somewhere in the middle. Considering that short-range air defense systems are often used on the front line, their destruction by the forces of the RF Armed Forces is inevitable. It is unlikely that the Armed Forces of Ukraine have more than one or two dozen vehicles left with combat-ready Tor / Tor-M1 air defense systems.

Ukrainian SAM "Tor"

The Armed Forces of Ukraine also have about a hundred Osa-AKM air defense systems - this is an outdated model with limited functionality, although this complex can also pose a threat when working from an ambush. How many of these complexes are left at the moment is unknown.

SAM "Osa-AKM"

Also, the Armed Forces of Ukraine, presumably, have Tunguska anti-aircraft missile and gun systems (ZRPK) - however, almost nothing is known about their use, which suggests that their effectiveness, like the effectiveness of the Osa-AKM air defense system, tends to zero, most likely due to lack of ammunition. Even in the Armed Forces of Ukraine, they are talking about two captured Russian Pantsir-S1 air defense systems, but without the supply of missiles, they will be of no use, although they can potentially be used as detection radars by the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

ZRPK "Tunguska"

Western countries also delivered 1 Aspide SAM battery and 2 Crotale SAM batteries to the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Globally, they will not affect the situation in any way; in terms of their capabilities, they are comparable to the same Tunguska air defense systems.

SAM Aspide (top) and SAM Crotale (bottom)

Short range air defense systems

The main Ukrainian short-range air defense systems include the Strela-10M air defense system, of which the Armed Forces of Ukraine had about 150 units at the beginning of the conflict, and about 23 self-propelled anti-aircraft guns (ZSU) ZSU-4-100 "Shilka" in the amount of about XNUMX units.

SAM "Strela-10M" (left) and ZSU-23-4 "Shilka" (right)

In addition to the long-range and medium-range air defense systems, the Western countries supplied the Armed Forces of Ukraine with the American M1097 Avenger air defense systems and the British Stormer HVM air defense systems. Few of them were delivered, they will not have an impact on the course of hostilities.

SAM M1097 Avenger (left) and SAM Stormer HVM (right)

The company to them and ZSU-23-4 "Shilka" will be 30 units of the German ZSU "Gepard", equipped with 35-mm anti-aircraft guns. If they were equipped with projectiles with remote detonation on the trajectory, they could become a serious threat to low-flying UAVs, and so they will have little chance of destroying something, of course, if the RF Armed Forces do not use combat helicopters and attack aircraft to attack "in emphasis "unguided weapons, as in the Second World War.

ZSU "Cheetah"

As part of short-range air defense, man-portable air defense systems (MANPADS) pose the greatest threat. The Armed Forces of Ukraine had a significant number of Soviet-made MANPADS, such as the Strela-1/2/2M/3 MANPADS and the Igla-1 MANPADS. In addition to them, Western countries supplied a significant number of American Stinger MANPADS, British Starstreak MANPADS, French Mistral MANPADS, Polish Piorun MANPADS and others.

MANPADS Stinger (left) and MANPADS Starstreak (right)

The exact, and even approximate, number of MANPADS supplied by the Armed Forces of Ukraine to Western countries is unknown. However, they drank a lot of blood from the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation. At low altitudes, they seem to be the primary threat.

In addition, the Armed Forces of Ukraine have a significant number of anti-aircraft guns (ZU) 23-mm ZU-23-2, as well as those made on the basis of small arms ersatz-ZU. Both obsolete air defense systems, such as S-200, 2K11 Krug, Kub-M3, Kvadrat-2D, as well as anti-aircraft guns, including 57-mm ZU S-60, 100-mm ZU KS-19.

Conclusions

A little stronger, but much weaker - it would seem that this phrase initially contains a contradiction, but this is how the current state of Ukrainian air defense can be characterized.

Having lost in the number of air defense systems, the air defense forces of Ukraine have gained considerable experience in conducting combat operations, their involvement in the information and control contours of NATO is constantly increasing. Gradually, deliveries of modern Western-made air defense systems began, in the future their number may increase significantly, and it will largely depend on the announced Ukrainian counteroffensive.

It can be assumed that one of the most serious problems of the Ukrainian air defense system is the lack of ammunition. It will be problematic to replenish their stocks for Soviet-made air defense systems, since the United States and Western countries have probably already raked out almost everything that was possible from their own and from other people's stocks. That is, for example, the S-300 air defense systems will remain with the Armed Forces of Ukraine, but they will have nothing to shoot with.

All the pain of Ukrainian air defense in one frame

The deliveries of Western air defense systems in themselves pose a significant threat, but their ammunition - anti-aircraft guided missiles, no matter how effective, is just as expensive - it can be assumed that modern air defense systems of NATO countries using missiles with an active radar homing head (ARL seeker) cost ammunition is hardly less than a million dollars, and if less, then insignificantly. What can we say about ammunition for the MIM-104 Patriot air defense system, the cost of which, according to open data, is about three million dollars per shot. And the air defense systems of Western countries themselves are very, very expensive - how would they not be left without pants.

For Russia, the destruction of the Ukrainian air defense system is a paramount task, the solution of which will quickly turn the tide of the war in our favor. This task is quite solvable, but it will require the attraction of significant resources, competent planning and political will to make some very tough decisions.

Comments

[Bingo]

Another modern and dangerous complex transferred to Ukraine is the NASAMS-II air defense system.

And the opinion of NATO-sheep themselves about its effectiveness on the outskirts:

In general, the appearance of such a chimera as NASAMS clearly speaks of the simply awful situation with air defense in NATO. A simple logical chain - you are pushing an aviation missile optimized for use from aircraft, that is, a priori super-expensive, because you had to fight for every gram of weight and millimeter of dimensions, into a ground installation, and not only do you make it work in unusual conditions, so you cut your strengths, such as launching already at speed and at a height, that is, range, fuck you don’t need it, it turns out that the ability to homing, because of the short range, and on this ka (m. zealous moderators) you throw out tons of money.
In general, I note that the militia successfully demolished helicopters from the sky with ATGMs, so the dill has hands from the well. No, well, there were Arrows too, but then)

[Revolver]

Quote from Bingo

stuff an aviation missile optimized for use from aircraft, that is, a priori super-expensive, because you had to fight for every gram of weight and millimeter of dimensions, into a ground installation

This saving of grams and millimeters is super expensive at the design stage. And when the series has already started, then vice versa - the more they have released, the lower the price of each, because the cost of R & D is laid out for the total number of products delivered. So even unconventional use is economically justified, in any way cheaper than designing missiles from scratch.

[Civil]

So far, there is a fact that our Air Force does not fly deep into enemy territory. However, with the advent of the UMPC, this is not yet necessary.

[Fitter65]

Quote: Civil

So far, there is a fact that our Air Force does not fly deep into enemy territory.

The NATO Air Force was also afraid to fly deep into the territory of Yugoslavia. If you remember that after two months of continuous bombing, the United States and from the satellites were at a slight loss. The F-117A is indicative of air defense, missiles are not a panacea, and it’s scary to start a ground operation. Remember the surprise of NATO after how many tanks the Yugoslavs withdrew from Kosovo? Indeed, according to reports, aviation destroyed them all, but it turned out that there were practically less than two dozen. And almost all air defense systems came out, later examining their positions, the Americans found only several radar units and launchers destroyed in positions. If not for internal traitors who were promised grated carrots with sugar, NATO would have been blown away. The Germans then wrote on the snow with superheated steam, they remember well how the Yugoslavs hung their grandfathers and fathers with lyuli ... But the internal enemy is worse than the external one. USSR and Yugoslavia as an example ...

[Fitter65]

Quote: Nagan

So even non-traditional use is economically justified, in any way cheaper than designing missiles from scratch.

It is doubtful that it is cheaper, as far as I know - air-to-air missiles have always been one of the most expensive types of aviation weapons. Well, the rich have their quirks. loss in range is unambiguous, the loss of other capabilities characteristic of an aviation missile ... By the way, you can understand when the successful Stinger MANPADS are fitted to aircraft

ATAS (Air-to-Air Stinger) is a short-range air-to-air missile for arming light reconnaissance helicopters, as well as propeller-driven, turboprop and turbojet aircraft and reconnaissance-strike UAVs, designed for air combat against enemy jet aircraft and helicopters . Developed jointly with McDonnell Douglas Helicopter Co., which was responsible for integrating the missile into the helicopter's weapons control system

[Alexey RA]

Quote from Bingo

A simple logical chain - you are pushing an aviation missile optimized for use from aircraft, that is, a priori super-expensive, because you had to fight for every gram of weight and millimeter of dimensions, into a ground installation, and not only do you make it work in unusual conditions, so you still cut strengths, such as launching already at speed and at altitude, that is, the range, fuck you don’t need the ability to homing, because of the short range,

In theory, such a "landing" of the RVV is justified by savings due to unification and a decrease in the cost of missiles, since it is already in the series as an RVV. In practice, it is impossible to directly shove the RVV onto a ground-based launcher (provided that the sane characteristics of the complex are obtained) - for example, the engine and guidance system had to be finalized on the IRIS-T SL. As a result, the unification of RVV and SAM is possible only in terms of components, so that SAM becomes a new product.

[Diger]

Quote from Bingo

you are stuffing an aircraft missile optimized for use from aircraft,

1.Sea Sparrow and Chaparral ->Sparrow-III AIM-7x and AIM-9D
Spada (and sea Albatros)->Aspide (same Sparrow)
VL MICA-RVV MICA
In 2005, KTRV presented at the MAKS air show information on the use of an air defense medium-range missile RVV-AE
TPK with RVV-AE on the carriage of the S-60 anti-aircraft gun, as well as the modernization of the Kvadrat air defense system by placing TPK with RVV-AE on the launcher

In the Klenka Research Institute, specialists from the Vympel State Design Bureau (today part of the KTRV) confirmed the possibility and expediency of using the R-27P missile as part of the air defense system, and in the early 1990s. R&D "Yelnik" showed the possibility of using an air-to-air missile of the RVV-AE (R-77) type in an air defense system with a vertical launch

TAM-150 with two rails for Soviet-designed R-13 and R-60 missiles
The RL-4 SAM was created on the basis of the Soviet R-73 missile
SPYDER based on Rafael Python 4 or 5 and Derby aircraft missiles
SAM SLAMRAAM with AMRAAM (up to 25 km) and AIM-9X (up to 10 km)

Quote from Bingo

because I had to fight for every gram of weight and millimeter of dimensions

The air carrier is already giving rocket launchers 500 km / h + launch altitude. From 3000m.
talking about SAM SHORT AND MEDIUM RANGE
And if necessary, they spit on "grams and millimeters"
KS-172 (based on S-300 missiles) or AAM-L with Su-35BM fighter or
PAC-3 in the aviation version from the F-15C fighters as a means of destroying ballistic missiles in the launch or final phases of the flight or cruise missiles

Quote from Bingo

that you force her to work in unusual conditions for her

Do zur "work" in the aquatic environment? At a depth of 1 km, attacking a sedentary submarine?
RVV and SAM: the goals and objectives are the same, the guidance methods and implementation are identical

Quote from Bingo

a priori super expensive

Expensive only gsn (argsn).
But! The more you produce, the cheaper you get per piece.
Smart people do this.
In addition to the obvious + in terms of the cost of missiles (and R&D costs), gains in logistics, maintenance, training, unification of guidance tools, excellent characteristics of missiles for overloads, etc., etc.

And the opinion of the NATO sheep themselves

? As a result of the interpretation of the Russian media (whom it is a shame to name the media)?
PySy. On September 26, UST Taiwan received US approval for the purchase of 4 NASAMS SAMs

[Comrade]

The Armed Forces of Ukraine have already announced that they intercepted the Kinzhal hypersonic missile with its help - for the first time in the world.

In such a situation, the words must be confirmed by physical evidence. And since the Ukrainian side did not provide any evidence that the Patriot was able to shoot down the Dagger, then there is no reason to take this statement seriously.
Let the wreckage show a close-up, so that the serial number is visible.
Otherwise, this is just a propaganda tale to raise the spirits, a lot of them have already been told - either the “Caliber” was knocked down by a woman with a can of cucumbers, or the pensioner flunked the Su-35 from a hunting rifle.

[Mikhail Krivopalov]

Actually google help! Although again, you can always say that any evidence provided is fake. So it all comes down to believing or not believing. I don't believe

[Horon]

So it all comes down to believing or not believing. I don't believe

They have already admitted that it was a fake. They wrote above that evidence is needed, and you have everything through faith.

[123_123]

At the moment, based on data from open sources, including TTX pu and zur Patriot, the history and experience of their use, there is no data on the possibility of intercepting hypersonic targets (such as the Dagger). Their effectiveness is demonstrated by the relatively recent (2019) failure to cover the industrial infrastructure of the SA from Iranian kr and drones.

[Diger]

Quote: Comrade

In such a situation, the words must be confirmed by physical evidence. And since the Ukrainian side is not

Quote: BRIGADE GENERAL PET RIDER

I can confirm they shot down a Russian missile using a Patriot missile defense system.

https://www.defense.gov/News/Transcripts/Transcript/Article/3390136/pentagon-press-secretary-air-force-brig-gen-pat-ryder-holds-a-press-briefing/
/ he is a press secretary of the Pentagon, like in Russia: Konashenkov /

Quote: Commander of the Air Force of the Armed Forces of Ukraine Oleshchuk

On the night of May 4, Ukraine, with the help of the Patriot air defense system, for the first time managed to shoot down the Russian Kinzhal missile.

⚡️I celebrate the Ukrainian people with a historical legacy!
So, we beat the "unparalleled" Dagger!

/ even despite the strange name of Mykola, he is still the commander /
https://t.me/MykolaOleshchuk
-----
Photo, video here:
https://twitter.com/ronzheimer/status/1656289377129988096?s=46
------
Because the remnants of daggers, after the launch, no one saw live, except for specialists from the RF Ministry of Defense, then they should comment / expose

Maybe fake, maybe not.
But there were statements by officials (USA and Ukraine), there were no defeats of objects on Bankovaya in Kyiv, Zelensky’s bunker, after the well-known attack on the Kremlin

[alexoff]

Maybe a fake, maybe not a fake, a rocket was lifted from the stadium in Kyiv for a week to show a whole penetrating warhead, which is similar to the Betab-500, KAB-500 and a bunch of other missiles. Rockets are always launched in pairs, but here there is only one, without smoke and roar. Infa weaving, as with IL-76 shot down near Kiev

[Diger]

Rockets are always launched in pairs, but here there is only one, without smoke and roar.

Missiles of the Kinzhal complex were not launched in pairs.

Infa weaving, as with IL-76 shot down near Kiev

Did BRIGADE GENERAL PET RIDER write about IL-76 at an official Pentagon briefing?
And Mykola (Commander of the Air Force of the Armed Forces of Ukraine Oleshchuk)?
No and no.
Some kind of rubbish wrote about IL-76, or Lyuska Aristovich, or (forgive me, lord) feigen (not sure for the correct spelling of the last name) some ...
That's it

[alexoff]

No, American intelligence officers and politicians talked about IL-76 in an interview, you would follow your news and heroes

[Diger]

Quote from alexoff

No, American intelligence officers and politicians talked about IL-76 in an interview

Bullshit. A link to "American r and n" please?
(I belittle no need for topcorb 60 minutes and other spoiled substance)

Quote from alexoff

for your news and heroes

Why do you know "my" heroes and news?
Well, enlighten me, otherwise I'm not in the know

[Alex_mech]

Let the wreckage show up close

So it seems that they showed a video with the wreckage.

"Caliber" woman knocked down a can of cucumbers, then the pensioner flunked the Su-35 from a hunting rifle

You are already very, very, very exaggerating. No one has written this anywhere.

[Wildcat]

The author is well done, usually his articles cause less emotions.
But this article is a masterpiece, I admit. After all, it is a little stronger, but much weaker than other articles of the author, so not only everyone can understand it.

No, it’s difficult to count the TOPs of the Armed Forces of Ukraine - at least try - I admit. But even though Irist is still possible to calculate ...
Yes, and how Crotal looks like, you also need to know, especially if an article is being written about him.
The answer to the question "how far AWACS 'sees' from Poland would also be good to know, at least google ....

PS "AWACS aircraft of NATO countries and deliveries of NASAMS air defense systems to Ukraine will close low altitudes for Russian aviation" - who read it? Recommend?

[Bingo]

Quote: Wildcat

The answer to the question "how far AWACS "sees" from Poland

And from the Black Sea, if they fly from airfields in the Crimea? And if we take into account that the all-propellers have complaints about the work of the Air Force - "why didn't they bomb the bridges" ON THE BORDER WITH POLAND ?! So that there were no supplies, or someone was crying, why didn’t Sumy or Chernihiv on the border be wiped off the face of the earth? And according to those who flew out of the Crimea, just with the help of AWACS, it’s not a question to calculate when they cross the front line

[Mikhail Krivopalov]

Well, this is one of the propaganda chips, so everything is done according to science - you need to simultaneously show that the enemy is strong and rallying is required, but at the same time you need to show that the enemy is weak and we are left alone. And it has been working since at least the end of the 18th century.

[Monster_Fat]

So you want to consider the enemy a half-wit, and his weapons are ineffective, insufficient, right? In the second year of SVO ....

[Toucan]

Quote: Wildcat

The author is well done, usually his articles cause less emotions.
But this article is a masterpiece, I admit. After all, it is a little stronger, but much weaker than other articles of the author, so not only everyone can understand it.

If Mitrofanov is compared with another author who regularly writes about air defense, then the comparison is very much not in favor of the first. There are a lot of nonsense and blunders in this article.

[marat2016]

Yes, it is apparently difficult to find out that the Union of the Armed Forces of Ukraine got 24 pieces of "Torah" ....

[KCA]

Fierce nonsense, lope lope was the X-101 shot down? Who said, some Zaparashny, oh, Zaluzhny, so he shoots down 30 out of 10 missiles of any, including Daggers

[Woroshilow]

Well, lying, so what? And you thought that he would come to the podium and tell the truth, "It's very difficult to shoot down, while it's not very good." Ours are doing the same, at least remember about the regrouping in the Kharkov region.

[antivirus]

The main question is what dishes will the Bermuda Triangle be drunk from? Vysotsky has no answer.
Do you forum users know?
How many rockets do you need to win if you don't need a quick win?
Do we need "slow"?
We need acceptable red lines for "defeat" on the outskirts

[Lech from Android.]

The Armed Forces of Ukraine have already announced that they intercepted the Kinzhal hypersonic missile with its help - for the first time in the world.

Is it true?

I think not ... unverified and unconfirmed sources ... it's stupid to rely on the statements of the Americans and the Ukronazis.

[alexoff]

What is there to think? There was a video of how the lancet flies into the avenger, it was necessary to answer with something. Here - they answered by shooting down a dagger, one photo is attached, all of Kyiv's mobile phones are dead.

[NG inform]

> still, a firing range of about 40-60 kilometers looks more realistic.
With target maneuvers, these 40-60s can suddenly turn into 4-6s. And even more so when starting from the ground.

[Tikhonov_Alexander]

One thing is clear, that the lessons of the West's wars with Iraq and Yugoslavia have not been learned. And the big question is whether it is worth waiting for something worthwhile from our MO. Not for Senka hat!

[Stas157]

. MANPADS supplied by the Armed Forces to Western countries are unknown. However, they drank a lot of blood from the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation. At low altitudes, it is they who, apparently, are the primary threat.

Fight against MANPADS
useless. Their saturation will always be high. Therefore, it is necessary to focus on the destruction of serious air defense and move to higher altitudes (5 km).

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Stas157

Fight against MANPADS
useless. Their saturation will always be high. Therefore, it is necessary to focus on the destruction of serious air defense and move to higher altitudes (5 km).

Actually, it was clear even 30 years ago. Ours gained experience in the conditions of saturation of the enemy with MANPADS and MZA in Afghanistan - the IBA went to work for 5-6 km, the SHA tried to compensate for the strengthening of short-range air defense with tactics and equipment, but with little success. Then there was the First Iraqi, where the Yankees did exactly the same: they went to medium heights, having previously killed the air defense of Iraq as a system. And in the same way, the Yankee SHA, who tried to work from low altitudes with the support of her ground forces, suffered losses from MANPADS and MZA.

[alexoff]

A lot of things have been invented against MANPADS for a long time, if at least every second Stinger reached the target, we would have ended aviation long ago. You just need to put these electronic warfare systems on every plane and helicopter

[cyberspace]

An electronic warfare container for each aircraft / helicopter will be a little expensive, it will be much cheaper to make an analogue aircraft based on the Su-34.

[Zaurbek]

The main obstacle for the Aerospace Forces is air defense on the territory under the control of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. The question is - how will air defense be carried out during the offensive of the Armed Forces of Ukraine? low heights - let them be covered, but this is not sitting in ambushes, it will be necessary to keep up with the motorized units. And how to protect the average heights? Hephaestus from 5-6000m will definitely lay down cast iron.

[alexoff]

The only way for them to successfully attack is for their allies to surround someone's accounts or someone's children somewhere in the Seychelles. And so, with adequate behavior of the leadership of the Russian army and Balakleya, there would be no

[alexoff]

In general, according to the observations of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, they have saturated air defense only near Kyiv, Kharkov and other Dnepropetrovsk people simply receive strikes with rockets and geraniums, without resisting in any way. And somewhere else in Odessa there is still some air defense, which shoots a little. Patriots could have covered them with daggers long ago, they are stationary and do not hide anywhere, they stand right in the field. But I remember one deputy was interested in whether Western employees were sitting there? Apparently they are sitting and the patriots circled in red. Regarding the work on the rear - well, for example, no MTRs and Petrov-Boshirovs work on the rear, probably because the SBU has not been defeated? And not because we are not such and red lines for us? I strongly doubt that the railway from Kiev to the west is covered by MANPADS all that a pair of Su-34s cannot pass over it at low altitude and drop a couple of dozen fabs along it, so that it can be repaired for three months later.

[solar]

Generally speaking...

according to observations, hits in the depths of Ukrainian territory became isolated, including Geraniums. And the planes, no matter how they did not fly further than the front line, do not fly.

[alexoff]

According to observations, missiles are not shot down at all, according to observations, even Vushniks talk about small numbers of missiles shot down, six months ago there were many times more.

[BMP-2]

In explaining why Ukrainian air defenses still exist, it seems to me that another factor is missing: intelligence data, including aerospace. This data seems to be either extremely insufficient or not up to date and outdated before it can be used. By the way, this can also explain the fact that the Patriots have not yet been captured.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: BMP-2

In explaining why Ukrainian air defenses still exist, it seems to me that another factor is missing: intelligence data, including aerospace.

First of all - RTR.
The classic scheme for opening air defense is a “prick”: several IBA boards loaded with containers with RTR and EW equipment imitate a target attack at high speed, simultaneously fixing reviving radiation sources - frequencies and coordinates, after which they turn around and go away from harm. And then - either on the aired radars go PRR (if the autopsy group goes along with the strike group), or on their coordinates go KR / BR.
In the past, behind the backs of the IBA over their territory, RTR and EW special aircraft could still circle, which, due to more powerful equipment, provided more accurate coordinates and identification of the radar, as well as covering the autopsy group with interference (and sprinkle you, Annushka, the whole range in chalk interference ).

[zyablik.olga]

It is depressing when a person who is far from it undertakes to write on some topic.

[drone-expert]

Most likely, the entire supply of Bukov missiles will soon run out. They already now travel with 2 missiles usually. Which partly confirms the leaks. There remained 110 missiles for 52 installations

Replacing Buki will be very difficult, because. he has his own radar. With an external surveillance radar, it is enough. In fact, 52 Buk can be replaced by 52 IRIS-T. NATO does not have so many of them.

And then, the seeker of the IRIS missile itself can capture an aircraft only 5 km away. Prior to this, the rocket needs external control for a long range and is complex, because for a long range, it flies like an OTRK along a parabola and already dives onto the plane by inertia. For such a number, the external radar must very accurately estimate the position of the aircraft. With the Khibiny turned on on the Su-34, emitting pulses like a radar station, you can only estimate the azimuth to the plane correctly, but not the distance. Therefore, the real range of air defense systems of all types in Ukraine is not higher than 40 km. And this means that you will be bombarded with glide bombs from a safe distance.

One can argue whether the leaks are true or not, but Shahidov purchased 2500 pieces. The stock of air defense missiles in the balance is definitely not higher than 200-300 missiles if you add up the S-300 and Buki.

In fact, if the Ukrainians do not start an offensive right now, they have the risk of being left without an air defense umbrella with very fragmented coverage by Western air defense systems and worse quality than the S-300 and especially Buki in the mass

[Pavel57]

The numerical layout is interesting.

Disadvantages of the article:
- the author often confuses the terms air defense systems and launchers,
- anti-aircraft AIM-120 spends more fuel than aviation .... why all of a sudden? Rather talk about overclocking capabilities. The carrier aircraft plays the role of an accelerator.

[drone-expert]

Since suddenly, more fuel is required for the same range, i.e. range is lower. This is also due to acceleration, as well as launch altitude. There is another aspect, for a long range, air defense missiles do not fly in a straight line, but along a ballistic trajectory to save fuel. To do this, they have a complex mechanism for determining where the target will be approximately at the time of their arrival, and this is also done taking into account the use of electronic warfare by the target, which is quite easy to prevent the accurate determination of the range to it. These are all optimizations for air launch. For a ground rocket, you need to reprogram, but no one does this. Therefore, the range of missiles when launched from the ground is much lower, even ground-based radars more than 40 km usually do not use

[Bongo]

Quote: Pavel57

The numerical layout is interesting.

But unreliable.

Quote: Pavel57

Disadvantages of the article:
- the author often confuses the terms air defense systems and launchers,
- anti-aircraft AIM-120 spends more fuel than aviation .... why all of a sudden? Rather talk about overclocking capabilities. The carrier aircraft plays the role of an accelerator.

And a bunch of other bugs...

[Proctologist]

Quote: Nagan

saving grams and millimeters is super expensive at the design stage.

In journalism and disputes, the ability to put an end to the point is valuable. How do we calculate the cost of a rocket and, more importantly, its value? Here, there are two rockets, A and B. A is cheaper, B is more expensive, because "with savings in grams and millimeters." Straight, honestly cheaper in mass production, taking into account R&D. The price of the rocket in the customer's warehouse is lower. We put a point.

Since the price of rocket A is lower, therefore, they tried to use them as a priority, and they - that's bad luck! - are over. There is a launcher, there are no missiles for it (there are expensive missiles B in the warehouses, but you can’t launch them from complex A), drones fly past and flap their wings affably.

So, unification is worth a lot! If the missile is universal and can be used from different launchers (carriers), this adds value to it, simplifies logistics (that is, saves other costs), and if you put the end in another place, on the cost of hitting a target with a missile, then the result may be different!

Even partial unification, in terms of avionics, warheads, engines, costs a lot and reduces the cost.

[koramax81]

"According to open data, Ukraine retains more than 2023 S-200 launchers at the beginning of 300"
Tell me where you found these "open" data. Not on the ZSU website by any chance?

[marat2016]

Based on the fact that in 1992 there were 43 DN S-300P and 6 S-300V1 batteries, the figure of 200 PU is possible.

[yaglon]

As of February 2022, there were 208 launchers, 67 launchers were reliably destroyed, the rest of 141 launchers, but actually less than one and a half times. Not everything destroyed is confirmed, plus the wear and tear of equipment, plus the execution of almost all available ammunition. The basis of the air defense of the Armed Forces of Ukraine now is MANPADS.

[solar]

The basis of the air defense of the Armed Forces of Ukraine now is MANPADS.

If this were the case, then Russian aviation would operate to the very Polish border, and not to the front line, as it is now.

[yaglon]

This is not an argument. If it does not work, then the residual amount of air defense is sufficient to close the upper echelon. And there are quite a few of them, hundreds of S-300s, Beeches, Patriots, NASAMS ...

[yaglon]

"The exact, and even approximate, number of MANPADS supplied by the Armed Forces of Ukraine to Western countries is unknown."
For those who were banned in Google, I inform you that 2600 Stinger MANPADS, 2700 Strela-2 MANPADS, 100 Mistral MANPADS, zero Starstreak MANPADS (they are only part of Stormer HVM) have been delivered.

[Evgeny_Sviridenko]

As the saying goes: "With the world on a thread." A wide variety of systems is also a blow to combat capability. No interchangeability at least. Both components and military specialists. But to study all this "good" it is necessary to trophy.

[solar]

so they will have little chance of destroying something

There is a video of the use of the Cheetah on, as they say, a cruise missile.

The author has not yet written that there were reports of the transfer of Sea Sparrow missiles by the Americans for use in Buki with minimal alteration. If this is the case, then it must be taken into account that NATO in general and the Americans in particular have a fair amount of obsolete Sea Sparrows, they were replaced by ECCM.

[alexoff]

Are you giving yourself credit? Cheetahs, among 30 pieces, shot down something once, that's an achievement!

[Petio]

You need good group protection systems in containers. Su-34s carry such. The main question is to what extent they are effective.

[Alex_mech]

Iris is not alone. To find out, just go to the search on the news ...

[Stepan S]

In addition, it is unlikely that the same S-300s of the Armed Forces of Ukraine are being dragged to the front line, our Air Forces do not fly deep into the territory of Ukraine now, then how will we destroy them there?

We will destroy with missiles and kamikaze drones, which has been happening all the time in the last half a year.

[Stepan S]

According to open data, Ukraine retains more than 2023 S-200 launchers at the beginning of 300

Where did the author see these "open" data? Did Zaluzhny tell him?

[Stepan S]

The Armed Forces of Ukraine have already announced that they intercepted the Kinzhal hypersonic missile with its help - for the first time in the world.
Is it true?

And you look at the photo and video of the cast iron that they pass off as the "Dagger", at least visually compare the contours, the shape of the head part and maybe the questions themselves will disappear. Or if Ukraine has declared, then everything is so and there is nothing to understand?

[alexoff]

The fact that the video appeared a week later says a lot. Looks like they were looking for something similar.

[Uncle_Misha]

If our aviation does not fly behind the LBS, it means that the Armed Forces of Ukraine are in full order with the air defense. Russia has no means to destroy it, this must be recognized and no longer groaning about this. what is. All flights of our aviation are recorded by the Americans, the high flight altitude and considerable EPR contribute to this. In principle, American air defense systems are designed to defend facilities, there are enough MANPADS and mobile systems for land forces, unlike us, they rely on aviation.

[alexoff]

What's the logic? If aviation does not fly behind a ribbon, then there is impenetrable air defense, if the MTR does not work behind a ribbon, then there is an impenetrable front line more abruptly than that of the Wehrmacht in 1942? As if someone checked this air defense

[Uncle_Misha]

And here SSO? If they don’t fly for LBS, then there is one reason for this, there is a great chance they won’t return from there. Yes, it’s impossible to call the air defense of the Armed Forces of Ukraine impenetrable, but to break through we need tools with which, let’s say, we don’t have very much.

[alexoff]

MTRs do not work behind a ribbon, VKS do not work behind a ribbon, although both should. How is it known that there is a great chance of not returning? Is this somehow verified? Maybe there are stupid illumination radars there, but there are no missiles for hundreds of kilometers? Or is the war strange for everyone except the Aerospace Forces, is everything honest there?

[UAZ 452]

After today, they are unlikely to fly over their territory closer than 100 km from the border.

[Repellent]

Quote: UAZ 452

closer than 100 km from the border will not fly

It is unlikely. A "planning" bomb does not fly that much.

[UAZ 452]

In the current realities, they will be forgotten, only missiles launched from airspace deep in the rear. Gliding bombs are sent to warehouses, where free-falling FABs are already gathering dust, army and attack aircraft are laid up.
Or pick up a key, develop effective measures to counter the increased capabilities of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. I hope we can.

[alexoff]

With the approach - and suddenly the enemies shoot at me - you can generally immediately give up. For some reason, enemies use aviation and air defense, although they have a risk of dying orders of magnitude higher. If our aviation cannot work either when air defense is nearby or when the enemy has fighters, then something is wrong with aviation

[Yaroslav Tekkel]

So something is really wrong with her. And for a very long time. It is enough to compare what losses the US Air Force was ready to take in Vietnam and what losses the USSR Air Force turned out to be enough to give birth to the legend of the Stingers.

[the same doctor]

The winner is the one who has more and better weapons. In the meantime, Nabiulina does not give money for "better", and Defense Ministry officials are blocking "more". The suspension of UAV production described by Prigozhin means only one thing: a new owner has been found for this cash stream.

[drone-expert]

Quote from solar

so they will have little chance of destroying something

There is a video of the use of the Cheetah on, as they say, a cruise missile.

The author has not yet written that there were reports of the transfer of Sea Sparrow missiles by the Americans for use in Buki with minimal alteration. If this is the case, then it must be taken into account that NATO in general and the Americans in particular have a fair amount of obsolete Sea Sparrows, they were replaced by ECCM.

Not a fair amount. AIM-7 has been withdrawn from service and there are small remnants of the US Navy. In reality, the delivery of up to 40 such missiles and an experimental one is expected. The missile is very old and it is difficult for her to work against electronic warfare like the Khibiny. More precisely, it will go at a distance of no more than 20 km. Since the era of planning bombs has begun, it doesn’t matter at all

In the Cheetah part, the video can also be deep fake. The fact is that Cheetahs practically do not shoot. This can be seen from the extremely low consumption of their shells. Why is not difficult to guess. Their old radar without a narrow beam is well defined even for 40 km, and the effective range of anti-aircraft artillery firing at drones and cruise missiles is no more than 1 km. Cheetahs just fly around. They can shoot down something either completely by accident, or if they stand directly on an object that can be hit

[bratchanin]

The analysis is high quality and professional. But it seems that again something is missing, something has not been completed ... The Russian soldier will overcome everything.

[Glagol1]

Another stuffing article that the Patriot arrived in 404 and immediately began to intercept hypersound. They will start shooting down asteroids so soon. Mr Mitrofanov, who are you?

[Engineer]

I don’t understand, is the article from last year?
Yesterday, ALL missiles and UAVs were intercepted over Kuev, including 6 daggers, which the Western press honestly calls aeroballistic

Moishe stop fooling yourself? in terms of quality, technology WE ARE LAGGER, which means you need to take a cheap but effective amount

Economic War..
Learns from Iran and the Arabs, all the same ancient civilizations

[Engineer]

how Persians and Arabs fight .. cheap, albeit with low efficiency (usually zero)
But grind down the enemy's resources

from the latest examples, spending hundreds of millions of dollars by Saudi on Patriots VS deshman UAVs and the Iron Dome VS scraps of pipes with saltpeter and aluminum powder

In (on) not Iran, and even more so not Israel, without having their own statehood, the owners will quickly get bored if the bills for "adventurous civilization" go off scale for hundreds of billions of dollars

[Georgy Sviridov_2]

A Patriot can only intercept an aeroballistic target by accident. It was not intended for this, therefore it was difficult for him to shoot down the same scuds, and everyone saw the shots when the Patriot fired all the missiles, and then shot down the cancer with his carcass ...
The Americans themselves use THAAD as a non-strategic missile defense system ... But the complex is complex, you can’t rivet it a lot, even 1 battery was squeezed to give the dill.