From sword to sword and rapier

117
From sword to sword and rapier

A hemispherical guard - a “cup”, two “mustache” with knobs at the ends, a bow on the handle and a long flexible blade - this is how we see a sword (although it would be more correct to call it a rapier!) In the 1961 cult movie The Three Musketeers directed by Bernard Borderi. Film frame


“Your sword lacks modesty!”
- I.e?
She loves to appear naked!

The film "Three Musketeers" based on the novel by A. Dumas (1961)




History weapons. For the first time, I had a chance to see such a rapier with a “cup” and “antennae” back in the summer of 1962 in Gurzuf in the Crimea, where the French film “Three Musketeers” was shown in the upper cinema near the bazaar with the charming Mylène Demongeot in the role of Milady. In my childhood perception, it was just something, so as soon as I returned to my place on Proletarskaya Street, I immediately retold the film itself to my comrades and ... described the swords involved in it. And it is clear that we immediately began to play musketeers and make ourselves the same swords from long and straight rods.

Scoops from soup ladles obtained with tears from parents went to the “cup”, thick wire and electrodes for welding from the nearest construction site went to the crosshairs, but the “knobs” on them were screwed from the beds. There was such a fashion at that time - to decorate the headboards with metal balls and balls. The whole structure was painted with silver for cemetery fences, after which it was possible to go and “sling” from the heart! And as soon as we didn't gouge our eyes out. But luckily everything worked out...


A stabbing sword with a handle in one and a half hands, ca. 1400–1430 Total length 124,8 cm; blade length 97,8 cm; weight 1 Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York


Piercing-chopping sword 1500 France. Total length 101 cm; blade length 85,1 cm; weight 1 g. The ring on the crosshair served to protect the index finger placed on it. Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York

Then there were other films, the heroes of which fought with swords. So in the end, I formed a firm conviction that the sword is a typical weapon of the nobility of the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries. And only much later I happened to find out that the history of this type of edged weapons began much earlier.

And it so happened that swords with a rhombic elongated blade appeared back in the Middle Ages, but they were typical rider weapons, and they were worn not on the belt, but on the left side of the saddle. The reason is the large length that was needed in order to withstand infantrymen and other horsemen in battle, after the knight's spear broke in battle. It was necessary to somehow reach out to the infantryman, including the one who had fallen to the ground, and to inject his enemy knight into the joint of his armor.

There were two varieties of such a sword: konchar and estok.


Italian thrusting sword (Spada da Stocco): c. 1500 g. Total length 113 cm; blade length 95,8 cm; weight 1 g. Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York


Estoc. Saxony, late 122,2th century. It is characterized by a long, narrow, pointed blade, usually triangular in cross section. Total length 106,9 cm; blade length 1 cm; weight 615,9 g. Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York

Konchar had no sharpening at all and was, in fact, a four-sided steel bar with a point designed to pierce armor with it. However, in the West, he quickly fell out of fashion after the cuirasses on the armor acquired a protruding rib in front.

Estok was also worn at the saddle and was a kind of "spare pike", but they could not only stab, but also deliver chopping blows. That's just because of its size, it was inconvenient to hang it on your belt. True, in the East it was used a little longer, and all because there were no solid forged cuirasses with a rib in the middle!


Rapier ok. 1490 Italy. Total length 104,5 cm; blade length 88,3 cm; weight 1 Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York

At the same time, any sword on the belt emphasized the person's belonging to the nobility.

That is why, as early as 1460, shorter and lighter thrusting swords appeared in Spain that could be worn with civilian clothes. And here they got their special name: espada ropera, that is, “sword for clothes”, which gave rise to two varieties of these weapons at once: espada - “sword”, and ropera - “rapier”. By itself, this name emphasized their civil, or rather, court character, since the heavier sword (it was called the “big sword”) continued to be worn with knightly armor.


Sword from the workshop of the famous Milanese gunsmith Francesco Negroli (1500–1558), owned by Emperor Charles V. Total length 107,3 cm; blade length 93 cm; weight 1 Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York

It immediately became clear that, despite the low weight, this weapon is very effective, primarily for "showing things off", which now no longer required wearing armor, and much more. A couple of witnesses and a secluded place were enough to settle scores with their enemy.

But since this new weapon was used with a civilian suit, that is, without a plate glove, care had to be taken to protect the hand. And if the first swords had relatively simple hilts with a straight cross and one or two protective rings on both sides of the blade, then later, namely in the XNUMXth century, very complex guards appeared, consisting of many intertwined metal rods.


Rapier hilt with cup guard. Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York


Embossed image on the guard

New weapons began to develop and improve very quickly. There were also new types of blades. For example, swords with a single-edged flat blade, double-edged only at the end, with which it was convenient to apply not only stabbing, but also chopping blows. Gunsmiths began to make especially durable faceted blades - three-, four- and even hexagonal, for purely piercing purposes.

If the blade was rigid, then the Italians called such a sword "stocco", but if the blade was thin and flexible, then "puma" - "spring". The last blades with a bowl-shaped guard and a cruciform crosshair began to be called rapier, and the weapon itself became a rapier. That is, if a sword is a variant of a lightweight piercing-chopping sword of the end of the medieval era, then a rapier is a lightweight version of a sword, intended mainly for thrusting, since its blade is often not even sharpened.


British sword (and in fact, a heavy sword with a piercing-chopping blade!) With a "basket handle". It is believed to have belonged to Sir William Twisden (1566–1628), who was knighted by King James I in 1603, was a Member of Parliament for many years, and was a collector of books and manuscripts. Date: ok. 1600–1625 Total length 100 cm; blade length 83,8 cm; weight 1 Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York


The same sword is a hilt

For a hundred years, namely by 1560, the wearing of a sword became common for infantrymen, since in most cases they no longer wore armor. For them, the sword has become an excellent weapon of self-defense.

But the swords also became the weapons of the plate cavalry - reiters and cuirassiers. They were heavier than infantry. But in the same way they had a complex guard made of metal rods, similar to a wicker basket. The desire to inflict as strong a chopping blow as possible on an infantryman with such a sword led to the appearance of a broadsword with a chopping blade with a blade sharpened only on one side and an inclined handle, which remained in service with the cuirassiers.


Ceremonial weapons of the XNUMXth century: a shield and a helmet of a cabasset and swords from Nuremberg and Solingen. Dresden Armory. Photo of the author


Sword with a "flaming blade", ca. 1620–1640 Italy. Overall length 111,8 cm; weight 1 g. It had a double-edged sharpening of the blade, which did not allow one to grab such a blade with a hand in a leather glove and deflect the blow, since this was fraught with a serious cut to the hand. That is why such a sword was a favorite weapon of hired killers and duellists-brothers. Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York

But the rapier blades were specially made extremely flexible and were even sold for the sake of advertising - bent into a ring.

Spanish blades from the city of Toledo were especially famous for their quality. But very soon, the Italian craftsmen from Brescia and Belluno caught up with their Spanish colleagues and began to make blades with the same quality. In particular, the master Ferrara from Belluno, also after 1560, put up for sale blades bent into a ring.


Sword of Prince Elector Christian II of Saxony (1583–1611). OK. 1606. Its hilt is the only recorded work of the Dresden gunsmith Yisrael Schuech. This is one of the best examples of handles, in fact, it is a piece of jewelry for which the Saxon court was famous. Blade of Juan Martinez (Toledo). Materials: steel, bronze, gold, enamel, precious stones, cameos, pearls, wood. Total length 121,9 cm; blade length 104,8 cm; weight 1 Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York

Over time, the skill of gunsmiths has grown even more. As early as the middle of the XNUMXth century, blades began to be made with deep valleys and sharp high ribs, while the valleys were perforated with many through holes, so that such a blade seemed transparent to the light. Well, it is clear that since swords were worn with civilian clothes, their handles immediately began to be decorated in all available ways, so long as they were not inferior to the richness of the costume itself!


Italian style swordsman's stance. Frame from the movie The Three Musketeers (1961)

Possession of a rapier no longer required special strength, which in this case was replaced by dexterity. Numerous schools arose where the nobles learned the high art of swordsmanship.

But, in fact, there were only two styles of fencing on rapiers and swords - Italian (earlier), with a frontal position of the body in relation to the enemy, and French (later), in which the fencer was turned to his right side. In the first case, a parrying dagger, often included in a pair set, could be used along with a sword. In the second, the use of a dagger was not provided, but it was necessary to strengthen the blade of the sword at the hilt in order to effectively parry its blows, which could previously be taken on a dagger.


Morion helmet, drop-shaped ceremonial shield and sword, complete with parrying daggers from the Dresden Armory. Photo of the author

And it is not surprising that those who mastered the art of swordsmanship immediately began to use it in duels with each other, which led to the mass death of representatives of the nobility. That is why in France, Cardinal Richelieu on February 6, 1626, strictly forbade duels, believing that a nobleman could shed his blood only in the service of the king!


And this is how they stabbed each other ... Frame from the movie "The Three Musketeers" (1961)

In the XNUMXth century, swords were worn on a belt, with a sheath inserted into a triangular blade made of many straps with buckles. A special strap pulled the blade in such a way that the sword hung in an oblique position.

Fashion changed in the XNUMXth century. Now the sword began to be worn on a wide sling, worn over the right shoulder. And it is clear that people with the means immediately began to embroider it with silver and gold, but for those who did not have enough money for the entire sling, such as Porthos from the Three Musketeers by Alexandre Dumas, they showed it only from the front, and the part that was on her back, covered with a cloak!

Swords and rapiers continued to exist in the future, but that's a completely different story ...
117 comments
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  1. +8
    5 May 2023 07: 09
    There were two varieties of such a sword: konchar and estok.
    The variety is in the form of a handle and a guard. In konchars, it is a pronounced saber. In Germany, such blades were called "Panzerbrechers".
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
  2. +3
    5 May 2023 07: 29
    However, in the West, he quickly fell out of fashion after the cuirasses on the armor acquired a protruding rib in front.
    I think the cuirassiers of Godfried Pappenheim will not agree with this.
    1. +4
      5 May 2023 09: 31
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      I think the cuirassiers of Godfried Pappenheim will not agree with this.

      However, in the West, these weapons fell into disuse faster than in the East. And why? Because oriental armor did not protect against a hit by a konchar, but European ones, especially cuirasses with a rib, protected them.
      1. +3
        5 May 2023 09: 45
        I think it would be reasonable to consider the heavy cavalry rapier as a direct evolution of the estoc. In this case, two centuries of use - is it "quickly out of fashion"?
        1. +3
          5 May 2023 09: 49
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          In this case, two centuries of use - is it "quickly out of fashion"?

          I did not write anything about the rapier.
    2. +5
      5 May 2023 09: 41
      Greetings Anton hi
      I came across a fresh Hollywood movie in 2023. What do you think, what is the name of it, and who does this African-American actor play? wink




      1. +12
        5 May 2023 09: 51
        The negro d'Artagnan is luxurious.
        1. +13
          5 May 2023 10: 11
          Bingo, Vyacheslav!!! This is a historical (in their tolerant concept) film "Three Musketeers" and "Afro-Gascon" D'Artagnan Yes
          Insanity grows stronger laughing
          1. +7
            5 May 2023 10: 44
            Quote: Richard
            Insanity grows stronger

            In Cinderella, the fairy godmother is also a black woman ...
        2. +8
          5 May 2023 10: 40
          Quote: kalibr
          my lady is a black woman.

          Almost. My lady is now of Indian origin. laughing
        3. 0
          21 June 2023 13: 29
          Or an LGBT activist - Constanta, serving the Queen of Spain (preferably an Asian).
      2. +8
        5 May 2023 09: 52
        My compliments, Dmitry!
        Does a transgender play Constance?
        1. +8
          5 May 2023 10: 17
          And FIG knows. Daughter downloaded, began to look - they saw D'Artagnan, spat, and immediately erased smile
        2. +11
          5 May 2023 10: 51
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          Does a transgender play Constance?

          Constance, as I understand it in current realities, is d'Artagnan's horse. laughing
          1. +8
            5 May 2023 11: 00
            Then this is no longer d'Artagnan, but Lieutenant Rzhevsky.
            1. +7
              5 May 2023 11: 33
              So d'Artagnan is "lieutenant Rzhevsky". Dumas in the images of musketeers portrayed his contemporaries.
      3. +6
        5 May 2023 11: 01
        hi
        Get ready to see the new blockbuster from Netflix
        1. +9
          5 May 2023 11: 12
          Our answer to the tolerant western cinematographer!!!
      4. +5
        5 May 2023 11: 50
        Reminds me of Mel Brooks' Robin Hood: Men in Tights.
        “My first decree is to appoint my friend Upchi as the new Sheriff of Gniloghem.
        - Black sheriff?!?
        - Is he black?
        - Why not? It worked in Blazing Saddles!

        30 years have passed - and the absurd situation has become a tradition.

        - Good change! Great change! © from the same place
        1. +2
          6 May 2023 10: 20
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Reminds me of Robin Hood: Men in Tights.


          Robin, by the way, also used a straight cutting and stabbing sword.
          The Robin Hood Monument in Nottingham (sculptor James Arthur Woodworth, 195) contains exactly this type of weapon in the composition. Although the historical character, who lived in the era of the Crusades, could not help but know about the local falchions, beloved by archers, by the way, and even about the less common sabers of the continent and the Middle East.
  3. +4
    5 May 2023 08: 02
    And here they got their special name: espada ropera, that is, “sword for clothes”, which gave rise to two varieties of these weapons at once: espada - “sword”, and ropera - “rapier”.

    Regarding terminology - the statement is more than controversial.
    Let's start with the rapier. In English and German - rapier. In Russian - rapier. But in Spanish - espada or espadaropera, in Italian - spada, spada da lato, in French - épée, épée de cour.
    With a sword it is even more difficult, because the weapon that we call "sword" is not designated by the term "espada" in any language.
    In German - degen. In English - smallword. In Italian, in general, it is difficult to draw a "border" between a rapier and a sword - spada da lato a striscia, less often la striscia.
    1. +3
      5 May 2023 08: 26
      In the modern Russian-speaking segment of the Eastfecht, they don’t really take a steam bath and everything that was worn without armor is called "noblewomen".
      "The look, of course, is very barbaric, but true." (C)
    2. +5
      5 May 2023 10: 11
      Quote: sergej_84
      in italian spada

      Spada - does it come from spada?
    3. +6
      5 May 2023 10: 29
      Greetings, Sergey hi
      To understand, you need to look into history. More precisely, the first name of the sword. In Spain, in the 1th century, "espadas roperas" - "a sword for clothes" appears. Many researchers in the translation of this name make two mistakes: they translate "espadas roperas" either as "a sword for civilian clothes"; or translated as "sword for clothes." For example, such a translation is given by John Clemments, well-known in the circles of historical swordsmen. And, based on this inaccurate translation, incorrect conclusions are being drawn regarding the sword and rapier. But the word "espadas" comes from the Latin "spata" - a sword, as the long cavalry sword of ancient Rome was called. And “for clothes” means “clothes, not armor”, and not civilian clothing, since the concept of “civilian clothing” did not yet exist. Reading carefully “espadas roperas”, it is easy to see that the words “sword” and “rapier” are two parts of this name: "espadas" - a sword, "roperas" - a rapier. In many languages, these two names simply do not exist: in Spanish, all the weapons described above are called "espada"; in Italian - "spada"; in French - "epee"; the English use the word "sword" - a sword: court sword - a court sword, town sword - a city sword, scarf sword - a sword for a sash, small sword - a small sword, to designate a sword in relation to more massive English swords; in German, the word "degen" refers to everything that we used to call a sword or a rapier. In practice, only in Russian these two names are used, in other languages ​​only one is used: either "rapier" or "sword". Yes, and these names are prefabricated, among swords or rapiers there are also proper names - Papperheimer and Walloon sword, for example, comishelard - a type of sword in which 3/2 of the blade was much wider than the other 3/XNUMX.
  4. +5
    5 May 2023 08: 34
    there were only two styles of fencing on rapiers and swords - Italian (earlier), with a frontal position of the body in relation to the enemy, and French (later)

    Yes? What about Destreza? The Spanish style is quite different from these two..
    1. +1
      5 May 2023 08: 47
      Quote: paul3390
      The Spanish style is quite different from these two..

      How? In what other position can you stand to the enemy?
      1. +5
        5 May 2023 08: 55
        Here in this one, on the left is the French school, on the left is the Destreza.
      2. +8
        5 May 2023 09: 01
        Everyone. Movements. Resistant. Blows. System. Philosophy.

        For example, the Italian school practices forward movement, and destresza - to the side. After the attack, the Italians demand an immediate counterattack, and the Spaniards demand a withdrawal from the line of attack. The Italians consider the injection to be the main one, and the Spaniards - only an auxiliary means .. Well, and so on and so forth ..

        In addition, destreza is fencing not only with a sword, but also, let's say, with a Navajo. And all sorts of combinations with a cloak, dago and other items. In general, this is exactly what the combat system is.

        Maybe you should read up on this topic? Destreza stands on the works of three masters - De Carranza, de Narvaez and Thibault. All of them are on the Internet. Take a look and you'll see the differences.

        I'll tell you more - in the Spanish treatises a lot of attention is paid to opposing the adherents of the Italian school. So the differences are noticeable.

        Well, for example - "The Book of the Greatness of the Sword" by Carranza and Narvaez https://destreza.one/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Pacheko-de-Narvaez-Kniga-o-Velichii-mecha.pdf?x55400
        1. -2
          5 May 2023 09: 27
          Paul! What you wrote about fencing technique. Receptions. And they really differed both in Spain and in Germany. But there are only two main racks: front and side. There can be any number of schools within these pillars.
          1. +6
            5 May 2023 09: 30
            With the same success it can be argued that all schools are the same, because there are only two options for holding a sword - in the left or right hand .. wink
            1. -4
              5 May 2023 09: 52
              Did you not understand what I wrote? It's a pity ... Holding with the left or right hand also applies to fencing techniques.
              1. +8
                5 May 2023 10: 09
                What other types of stands do you offer? What's on the head? Sitting? lying down? The human body has a limited set of movement mechanics, so any school will inevitably come from a small set of basic outgoing ones. The question is what she proposes to do next..
                1. -2
                  5 May 2023 10: 58
                  Quote: paul3390
                  The question is what she proposes to do next..

                  That's it! Next are tricks. Everything is simple.
          2. +7
            5 May 2023 15: 09
            But there are only two main racks: front and side. There can be any number of schools within these pillars.

            Shpakovsky in his repertoire. Even if he blurted out nonsense, it is almost impossible to get recognition from him of this fact. Unless pierced with a rapier. There is no fencing school within the framework of racks! It is each fencing school that has certain basic fencer stances, which, according to the theorists of these schools, best ensure his (the fencer's) readiness for attack and defense.
            Achille Marozzo, one of the classics of the Italian fencing school, described fifteen different stances. Camillo Agrippa had four of them. In Capo Ferro "this is a body position when the hand and sword form a straight line directed to the center of the affected area on the opponent's body, and the body maintains a stable position depending on the rhythm of movements in order to keep the enemy at a distance and hit him if he approaches his death..."
            paul3390's remark was quite to the point and perfectly correct. However, the author "stands in position" and instead of a constructive dialogue, he simply demonstrates his ignorance in the matter of fencing.
            1. -4
              5 May 2023 19: 14
              Quote: sergej_84
              the issue of swordsmanship is ignorance.

              I didn't claim to be knowledgeable in this area. The article deals with a narrow issue concerning metal. About the use of it is said only in so far as.
            2. 0
              5 May 2023 19: 37
              Quote: sergej_84
              ignorance

              By the way, I read about the Spanish school and understood why I have only met references to the Italian school and the French one so far. At the heart of it is the rack - side and front. The Spanish school also recognizes the frontal, but the movements are different. In Italian, forward - backward, in Spanish - to the sides. So your comments are inappropriate. It was quite possible not to mention it in this article. Here in the article about fencing schools, you should definitely talk about it.
              1. +2
                5 May 2023 21: 13
                It was quite possible not to mention it in this article.
                It would be worth at least a remark. Your "trouble" Vyacheslav Olegovich is that you "beyond the forest, do not see the fir trees."
                1. +1
                  6 May 2023 07: 07
                  Quote: 3x3zsave
                  Your "trouble" Vyacheslav Olegovich is that you "beyond the forest, do not see the fir trees."

                  Everyone has their own shortcomings, Anton! In addition, to mention everything - you become like an elephant-painter.
              2. 0
                5 May 2023 22: 41
                By the way, I read about the Spanish school and got it,

                You are mistaken, moreover, strongly.
                1. 0
                  6 May 2023 07: 09
                  Quote: sergej_84
                  You are mistaken, moreover, strongly.

                  Really? Then I promise to study everything that is available and what my hands can reach, and set out in detail here. Or should we ask Paul to write about the Spanish school first? He apparently liked it very much, and this is always a guarantee of a good presentation.
        2. -3
          5 May 2023 09: 29
          Quote: paul3390
          So the differences are noticeable.

          In posture or in techniques?
          1. +6
            5 May 2023 10: 06
            Let's just say that you don't know much about Destreza. Do not take it for work - read at least the book at the link that I indicated. And then - we can return to the discussion.
            1. -5
              5 May 2023 10: 54
              Quote: paul3390
              And then - we can return to the discussion.

              I know a lot or a little in this case does not play any role. There are sources whose authors are recognized experts. For example, the same Thomas Laible and John Clemens. You've read about your destrez and rush about with it like a hand-written bag, "oh, I read it!" So what, there are dozens of other books in which there is nothing about her. And what? They didn't get any worse than that. There is no need to elevate anything to the absolute, dear Pavel.
              1. +5
                5 May 2023 11: 16
                Well - and you just as well read other authors with whom you rush about .. Trying to give out your opinion as the ultimate truth, despite the very great outlook.

                And note - the dispute began with your statement that there are only two schools, Italian and French. I noticed to you that the Spanish school is no less well-known and developed, and that it would also be worth remembering. And then - you suffered, how could it be - they dared to correct your opinion like an expert. Oh well..

                As for the books - once again, those that I offered you for review are not from dozens of others. These are BASIC works on the philosophy and practice of Destreza. Without reading at least one - to talk about its differences or not from other schools is simply outright amateurism. So - I would highly recommend that you choose the time and get acquainted with at least the one that I offered to your attention at the link.
                1. -3
                  5 May 2023 11: 41
                  Quote: paul3390
                  Trying to give his opinion as the ultimate truth

                  You are confusing me with someone else. I never give out my opinion as the ultimate truth, but I report the facts.
                2. +1
                  5 May 2023 11: 45
                  Quote: paul3390
                  And then - you suffered, how could it be - they dared to correct your opinion like an expert.

                  Not mine, by no means. I just haven't seen anything about her anywhere. And since the masters don’t write about it, then where am I. I will definitely read what you recommend to me. But since recognized experts have not noted it with their attention, then maybe it is not worth it. Look, Wikipedia says about the German school, so they advise the technique of hitting the head with a pistol grip ... Agree that this is simply not serious.
      3. 0
        6 May 2023 17: 50
        Quote: kalibr
        Quote: paul3390
        The Spanish style is quite different from these two..

        How? In what other position can you stand to the enemy?

        Right! Frontal and left-sided racks are more progressive.
        1. 0
          6 May 2023 19: 36
          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          Right! Frontal and left-sided racks are more progressive.


          Stances at injections are determined by anatomy, basically.
          The heart is usually displaced to the left, which means that it is more difficult to hit it with an injection from the right. The right hand is dominant and stronger, although this can be changed by retraining and training. Interestingly, the technology of rapier fighting did not have time to develop before the intervention in the anatomy of the fighters. The simplest option is, for example, the lengthening of the right arm - soldiers and servicemen would stretch the limb after artificial fractures using some variation of the Ilizarov apparatus. As a matter of fact, making changes to anatomy in history is a common thing - people did it all the time, either flattening or pulling out skulls, then bandaging their legs, or even changing little things. Viking warriors, for example, made special notches and notches on their teeth - one should not think that the Northern Europeans also didn’t do such manipulations on anatomy at all, it was just little known, it was not widespread.
          For the same reason, the sword did not take root well at sea - on ships, battles could often be fought not on a strictly horizontal and free surface, and even at different levels and in pitching, which is why all these anatomical effects began to work differently than under normal conditions.
          A purely mechanical option could be a counterweight device and support on the shoulder - so the options here are far from being exhausted ...
    2. +2
      5 May 2023 08: 57
      Agree. You can also remember Liechtenauer.
      1. +4
        5 May 2023 09: 18
        The German school - it is still not as elaborate and pronounced as the rest. Under Destreza lies both a certain philosophy and biomechanics. I would say - this is something like European aikido with a sword .. laughing

        the use of the sword is nothing but a science, it is a scientific exercise. (C)
  5. +2
    5 May 2023 09: 03
    But, in fact, there were only two styles of fencing on rapiers and swords - Italian (earlier), with a frontal position of the body in relation to the enemy, and French (later), in which the fencer was turned to his right side.


    In the first case, it is convenient to apply both chopping and stabbing blows (lunge). It is not surprising that he is earlier, the manner of swordsmanship was closer to that with the use of a sword.
    In the second - the emphasis on lunging at maximum distance. At the same time, it is also easier to protect the chest (heart), where they tried to strike with a blade.
    In modern sports fencing - clearly "French" style can be traced
    1. +1
      5 May 2023 09: 28
      Quote: Illanatol
      clearly "French" style can be traced

      Of course!
      1. +5
        5 May 2023 10: 47
        It was the lightness of the sword that made it possible to invent the whole variety of fencing techniques. There are schools of fencing: Spanish, English, French, German and Italian, each of which had its own characteristics, and whose adherents argued whose school is better. Fencing textbooks are being written: for example, Ridolfo di Cappo Ferro's "Gran Simulacro dell'arte e dell'uso della Scherma" ("The Great Image of the Art and Practice of Fencing") of 1610. In each country, fencing knowledge is systematized and supplemented with something new. For example, the first fencing systems in Germany and Spain focused on chopping techniques, and the principle of “killing with a point, not with a blade” appeared in Italy only in the middle of the 17th century and, gradually, it was the Italian school that became dominant. Fencing became fashionable, it was studied in prestigious educational institutions. In the reigning houses, and not only, there was a position of fencing master - fencing teacher. The sword becomes a sign of a noble person, a nobleman, a bourgeois, sometimes a commoner, a defender of a person’s honor in a duel (not only for men, but also for women), losing honor, a person was also deprived of a sword - it was simply broken over a person’s head.
        1. +3
          5 May 2023 10: 53
          losing honor, a person was also deprived of a sword - it was simply broken over a person’s head.
          And then unpretentiously hung ...
        2. +2
          5 May 2023 11: 23
          gradually it was the Italian school that became dominant.

          This is primarily due to the maximum lightening of the weapon. What kind of chopping blows, even from a brush, has become not entirely acceptable. The risk of breaking the blade is too great, and the cutting wounds inflicted by such a light weapon are not entirely effective. So - the Italian technique of injections was the only possible one.
          1. +2
            5 May 2023 12: 16
            Quote: paul3390
            This is primarily due to the maximum lightening of the weapon.

            Are you talking exclusively about dueling swordsmanship, or swordsmanship in general?
            Of course, in fights, when all the movements of the enemy take place before your eyes, the more mobile and faster fighter will have an advantage, accordingly, the need for armor that restricts movement disappears, as does the need for heavy, but slow weapons.
            But if there is a battle, during which the enemy can be not only in front of you, but also on the side and behind, then the armor no longer seems to be an annoying hindrance, so the weapon should be heavier.
        3. +1
          6 May 2023 17: 58
          The sword becomes a sign of a noble person, a nobleman, a bourgeois, sometimes a commoner, a defender of a person’s honor in a duel (not only for men, but also for women), losing honor, a person was also deprived of a sword - it was simply broken over a person’s head

          Including learning! Swords were allowed to be worn by professors and students.
  6. +2
    5 May 2023 10: 09
    It immediately became clear that, despite the low weight, this weapon is very effective.

    I look at the photo at their characteristics and see the weight of all of them is more than 1 kg, most often 1,2 kg - 1,5 kg: it seems to me that this is not at all light weight? hi
    1. +3
      5 May 2023 10: 33
      Hello, Sergey!
      In principle, 1,5 kg is a bit too much even for a one and a half. However, I think, here it is necessary to take into account the weight distribution of the blade / guard in accordance with the changed fencing technique, in comparison with the same "Carolingians".
      1. +3
        5 May 2023 10: 54
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        However, I think, here it is necessary to take into account the weight distribution of the blade / guard in accordance with the changed fencing technique

        Good afternoon Anton,
        and where is the weight of the sword? apparently in the guard area?
        Never held a sword. hi
        1. +5
          5 May 2023 11: 34
          where is the weight of the sword? apparently in the guard area?

          There is such a book by Woycek Zablotsky "Sabers of the World" in it there is this info on the example of various types of bladed weapons from European museums from Russia, Poland, the East, to Scandinavia.


          It is on swords, the balance is on average 13-15cm. counting from the beginning of the blade, that is, from the guard-crosshair forward along the blade
        2. +3
          5 May 2023 11: 36
          I didn't keep it either, except for theatrical props. You can try to determine empirically, with the help of your caroling.
          1. +2
            5 May 2023 11: 41
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            You can try to determine empirically, with the help of your caroling.

            Caroling is still a different weapon.
            I read somewhere that the Carolingian balance is about a palm and a half from the crosshairs. hi
    2. +3
      5 May 2023 10: 35
      In general - something more, less "standard" for that time.
      The average weight of a combat sword is 1.5 kg. . This corresponds to the average weight of the bastard sword and the later battle sword, which is often referred to as the "great sword". The early sword is essentially a variation of it. The average weight of an earlier (and modern sword) combat one-handed sword is from 1200 to 1400 grams. With a heavier sword, it is too tiring to actively fence with one hand in a long battle. This is not 1-2 minutes of a duel fight without armor somewhere in the alley. The first swords are just a heavier and elongated sword of narrower geometry for working on a heavily armored opponent. The narrowness of the blade and the large massiveness of the sword are dictated by the increased strength of the enemy's armor with a minimum of vulnerabilities. For the same reason (strength of the armor), the shield was gradually abandoned. This made it possible to use the pick-up with the second hand and the half-sword technique in combat fencing. When a fencer took a sword with his second hand in a gauntlet above the guard or in the middle of the blade and with a powerful piercing blow with both hands he tried to pierce the armored opponent with a sword like a spear (considering that at all times the sword was sharpened only half or even one third from the point).
      1. +4
        5 May 2023 10: 58
        Quote: Richard
        The average weight of an earlier (and modern sword) combat one-handed sword is from 1200 to 1400 grams. With a heavier sword, it is too tiring to actively fence with one hand in a long battle.

        A combat sword, as far as I can imagine, and not for fencing, for inflicting a serious blow (or injection, depending on the circumstances) on a generally armored opponent.
        1. +4
          5 May 2023 11: 19
          A combat sword, as far as I can imagine, and not for fencing


          Fencing - does not depend on the type of melee weapons, whether it be a knife, sword, sword, spear, ax, club, or something else. This, encyclopedically speaking, is the very system of techniques for owning hand-held edged weapons in hand-to-hand combat,
        2. +2
          5 May 2023 11: 51
          Quote: Mihaylov
          for a serious blow

          You also need to be able to deal a serious blow, which means you need to learn. One must be able to deliver strong and accurate blows in different planes and directions, from different positions.
          I periodically practice with my cleaver in the forest. Oblique strikes from top to bottom from right to left are quite effective for me, but strikes in other directions, for example, from bottom to top, or from left to right, alas, are not so effective - they have not been worked out by long practice.
          If we stick to the definition that fencing is
          a system of techniques for owning hand-held edged weapons in hand-to-hand combat, application and reflection of blows and injections

          then training in a strong blow is, of course, fencing.
          1. +3
            5 May 2023 11: 59
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            then training in a strong blow is, of course, fencing.

            In this sense - yes, I meant, so to speak, fencing in the narrow sense, that is, mainly dueling.
            The eternal question about terms! hi
            1. +3
              5 May 2023 12: 22
              fencing in the narrow sense, that is, mainly dueling.
              Also dueling swordsmanship ...)))
              1. +1
                5 May 2023 12: 44
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                Also duel fencing.

                This, as I understand it, is "God's judgment"?
                1. +2
                  5 May 2023 12: 52
                  Yes, ordalia, performed by Hans Talhoffer. If interested, I can then send the entire "comic".
                  1. +2
                    5 May 2023 15: 02
                    Quote: 3x3zsave
                    Yes, ordalia, performed by Hans Talhoffer. If interested, I can then send the entire "comic".

                    Yes, it will be possible to see, apparently a funny spectacle.
                    But the ordeal, it seems to me, is still not quite a duel, even if the duel grew out of it. hi
                    1. +2
                      5 May 2023 15: 38
                      Ordalia is basically a trial or contest. Before the ubiquity of another method of inquiry, the inquisito was perhaps the only method of "investigation".
                      1. 0
                        6 May 2023 18: 01
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        Ordalia is basically a trial or contest. Before the ubiquity of another method of inquiry, the inquisito was perhaps the only method of "investigation".

                        More ancient legal customs are "God's judgments" by fire or water.
                    2. +1
                      5 May 2023 15: 55
                      Yes, it will be possible to see, apparently a funny spectacle.
                      When I get home, I'll take a picture and send it.
            2. +2
              5 May 2023 12: 26
              We also declare that this section is related to art, since it contains demonstrations - simple and understandable, the same as in Philosophy or Geometry. And this is true, because we are talking about natural movements, slow and fast; about the natural structure of man, about the existing blows to the limbs, which is an obligatory knowledge for both attack and defense. We will also talk about geometric figures, circles, angles, and lines described by Euclid. And despite the fact that the principles in art are not proven, there are no such obstacles for science. As arithmetic gives rise to music, so painting is the product of the View, and Theology is the product of Science, and therefore the blessed do not leave science. Accordingly, art also contains science in itself, although art is not a science in itself; all the principles that exist in art are collected from different sciences and come from a formal rational perception. So, the skill to “hit” and the skill to “defend” are parts of the science of Philosophy, these skills describe the actions of a person, while scientific reflections on them have the goal of gaining knowledge about the actions of a person, since it is in actions that the hidden part of a person is manifested - that is, , his anime. Animo is the origin of the ethics and morality of man; eco-
              10mics and sciences of government, family, home, as well as the source of the policy of the State. And even if we assume that we have science before us, we accordingly prove the desired assumption with the definitions of science, apply analytical questions, since these methods allow us to know the cause of the subject, which is indisputably known to all representatives of the Greek and Latin world and does not cause contradictions.


              Louis Pacheco de Narvaez. What is the essence of fencing.
            3. +4
              5 May 2023 12: 55
              If we consider the duel as a product of the development of the institution of a judicial duel, then "duel fencing" was practiced back in the devil knows what times.
              Of course, the ability to deliver accurate and strong blows with long-bladed weapons can only be obtained through special training. Or, chopping sugar cane on a plantation in Haiti - practice has shown that such "fencing" also brings real results. smile
              Although it seems to me personally that in the definition I have given: "a system for applying and repelling blows and injections", the inseparability of the concepts of "applying" and "reflection" can be implied, in the sense that in the absence of any of the listed signs, the concept itself is absent. In this case, one can speak of fencing only from the moment the blade began to be used not only for striking, but also for repelling blows, and this, at best, is the Late Middle Ages.
              1. +1
                6 May 2023 18: 05
                If we consider the duel as a product of the development of the institution of a judicial duel, then "duel fencing" was practiced back in the devil knows what times.

                Not even with the manifestation of clubs! If we consider from the point of view of the marriage ceremony, then fights for the continuation of offspring appeared long before the appearance of mankind.
      2. +3
        5 May 2023 11: 37
        With a heavier sword, it is too tiring to actively fence with one hand in a long battle.

        The sword, the same bastard, in general, does not imply any kind of fencing. When an opponent in armor and with a large shield is against you, is there any sense in exquisite knuckles? Chop the bastard, and all the cases. It is not for nothing that chivalry at first considered fencing to be the lot of commoners, noble - not necessary. For the main weapon of the knight is still a heavy spear, the sword is already in auxiliary roles. And when it comes to him - no special art is required, the main thing is to chop harder.

        But when the big shields became a thing of the past, then there was a chance of an injection in the right place. And - gradually appeared fencing. As a science to oppose a certain opponent.

        It's like a katana and kendo - put a samurai with it against, say, a Swiss in armor and a bastard, or even against a Viking in good chain mail, a shield and an ax. I think that a samurai would have had very few chances .. Despite all his fencing delights.

        Yes, and kendo itself - in turn, the fruit of the Tokugawa era, when the clashes of armored warriors stopped and the duel was fought between the characters in hakama. Right there - yes, a katana sharpened in a razor is a terrible weapon. And before that, in Japan, fencing with swords was not particularly cultivated, because the main weapon of bushi is the bow and spear in the same way. Not a sword at all.
      3. +1
        5 May 2023 12: 40
        For the same reason (strength of the armor), the shield was gradually abandoned

        Please note that fencing with such an object as a buckler, that is, a fist shield, was extremely popular throughout the 16th century. For some reason, this aspect is almost not displayed in the cinema, perhaps because the masters of such a battle have disappeared. But the buckler was at that time the same standard item of arms worn by the nobleman as was the sword. Only later - it was replaced by a daga as a weapon for the left hand.
        1. +2
          5 May 2023 12: 47
          perhaps because the masters of such a battle were transferred
          Of course, they may have died out, but the ISB officers use bucklers for themselves.
          1. +2
            5 May 2023 13: 14
            Alas - they are extremely rarely involved in consulting historical films. Preferring to carry terrible nonsense and gag to the masses. Instead of somehow trying to show the true realities of those years.
            1. +3
              5 May 2023 13: 28
              There are not so many historical films and simayat. From the last decent thing that I watched, the Spanish TV series "El Cid".
              1. +1
                5 May 2023 13: 35
                Well, the same destreza seems to have been shown quite acceptable in Captain Alatriste.
                1. +1
                  5 May 2023 13: 47
                  "Captain" recently reviewed, awesome movie! But 1612 is a very long time ago, I don’t even remember the plot.
                  1. +2
                    5 May 2023 14: 56
                    And you don't have to. Just type fencing from the movie 1612 on YouTube .. The rest - it makes no sense to watch.
  7. +1
    5 May 2023 11: 02
    At one time I tried to deal with this very question - what is a sword and what is a rapier. In general, I came to the conclusion that the rapier is a purely piercing weapon, and the sword is also a chopping one. I don't know why I came to this conclusion for myself. But the abundance of terms used to designate long-bladed weapons at different times in different places is such that it seems to me fundamentally impossible to systematize these terms and clearly define their meaning.
    1. +1
      5 May 2023 11: 07
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      At one time I tried to deal with this very question - what is a sword and what is a rapier.

      And then there are modern sports swords, saber and rapier, which look almost the same... hi
    2. +3
      5 May 2023 11: 46
      what is a sword and what is a rapier

      I would distinguish them somewhat differently. A sword is a military weapon designed to be used in combat against a similarly armed enemy, possibly in a cuirass or thick leather tunic. In addition, it must be long enough to get the infantryman off his horse. And strong enough to allow chopping blows from the shoulder as well.

      The rapier is a variant of the weapon to be worn exclusively with civilian clothing. Against exactly the same. And since it is worn all the time, it is noticeably shorter and lighter. For carrying a heavy durynda tangled in her legs on her side is still a pleasure ..
      1. +2
        5 May 2023 12: 01
        Quote: paul3390
        I would distinguish them somewhat differently. A sword is a military weapon ... A rapier is a variant of a weapon to be worn exclusively with a civilian suit.

        It is possible and so, but unfortunately, it is too often possible to find references to wearing a sword, and not a rapier, with civilian clothes. A question of terminology, which, I'm afraid, can't be streamlined or unified in any way.
        1. +1
          5 May 2023 12: 18
          references to wearing a sword, not a rapier, with civilian clothes

          And it depends on who wears, as I understand it. If a military man, but in a civilian way, then he can also wear a familiar sword. And if Shpak, although a nobleman, is probably more comfortable for him with a light rapier ..
    3. +2
      5 May 2023 11: 47
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      that the rapier is a purely piercing weapon, and the sword is also a chopping one.

      And Thomas Laible too! So you are in good company!
      1. +2
        5 May 2023 12: 06
        Quote: kalibr
        And Thomas Laible too! So you are in good company!

        I'm glad I'm at least not the only one. smile
        However, it seems to me that such a point of view is too crude a simplification, alas, and there are too many exceptions to this rule.
        However, it seems to me that the task of a clear systematization of terms denoting weapons cannot be solved in principle. smile
        1. +2
          5 May 2023 12: 21
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          solved in principle.

          Why? Above, for example, Paul wrote the following very well:The rapier is a variant of the weapon to be worn exclusively with civilian clothing. Against exactly the same. And since it is worn all the time, it is noticeably shorter and lighter. For carrying on your side a heavy fool who gets tangled in his legs is a pleasure.. "
          1. +1
            5 May 2023 12: 37
            Paul's concept is also vulnerable to criticism. smile
            1. +1
              5 May 2023 12: 48
              And he does not pretend to be the ultimate truth, because he remembers those years very badly, so many years have passed .. crying Old age.. wink
      2. +1
        5 May 2023 12: 21
        And Thomas Laible too!

        Do you mean his book "Sword. Great Illustrated Encyclopedia"? I’ve been looking at her in a bookstore for a long time, but it’s expensive, Yoshkin cat. request
        1. +1
          5 May 2023 19: 19
          Quote: Richard
          Do you mean his book "Sword. Great Illustrated Encyclopedia"?

          She. And well written and illustrated too. The next article in continuation of this one will be on it. So you can appreciate.
  8. -1
    5 May 2023 13: 55
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    But if there is a battle, during which the enemy can be not only in front of you, but also on the side and behind, then the armor no longer seems to be an annoying hindrance, so the weapon should be heavier.


    A sword / rapier, of course, is a quite effective weapon, but ... a collision with an enemy armed with a shorter but massive blade could be fatal for the owner of the sword.
    Real pirates of the Caribbean, armed with rather crude weapons (such as a machete), simply cut these noble swords with one blow. Blades made of Toledo or Damascus steel were not affordable for all aristocrats.
    And swords were not always effective against Turkish scimitars or sabers-"batorok".
    Isn't that why the heavier broadswords lasted much longer than these swords?
    1. +4
      5 May 2023 14: 53
      I said that a duel and a group fight have completely different specifics and, accordingly, impose completely different requirements for combat equipment.
      A duel is a fight between two people on a flat area, the threat is only on one side, you can move freely, leaving the line of attack or choosing a convenient battle distance. In this case, a lighter and longer weapon gives a tangible advantage.
      A group fight is significantly different from a duel. The enemy can be on either side, the room for maneuver is limited, so protective equipment is mandatory, which means that the weapon should be heavier and shorter.
      And yes, taking blade for blade is a stupidity that our ancestors did not suffer from. Blade defense did not involve repulsing the blow with a counter blow, it was carried out by parrying, retracting the blade, etc. This is in all fechtbooks.
  9. 0
    5 May 2023 13: 57
    Quote: paul3390
    And if Shpak, although a nobleman, is probably more comfortable for him with a light rapier ..


    Rapiers could also be worn by persons of ignoble origin. For example, students.
  10. 0
    5 May 2023 14: 04
    Quote: paul3390
    The sword, the same bastard, in general, does not imply any kind of fencing. When an opponent in armor and with a large shield is against you, is there any sense in exquisite knuckles?


    There's a meaning. The article also mentions swords - "konchars" as the predecessors of swords.
    They tried to inflict stabbing blows in the weak spots of the armor (for example, in the joints).
    Over time, the armor became too effective, chopping weapons (excluding heavy axes or two-handed swords with a wavy blade) became difficult to hit the enemy. Therefore, more and more they relied on accurate stabbing blows ... in fact, fencing began to develop, the place of brute force began to be occupied by the mastery of the blade.
    Over time, the weight of the armor nevertheless became smaller, they became more comfortable and less restrictive, which made fencing easier.
    1. +2
      5 May 2023 17: 05
      swords - "konchars", as the predecessors of swords.

      Don't think. For the konchar is actually a replacement for a broken spear. Or when the cavalry is already bogged down in the infantry ranks. Fencing them is an extremely dubious occupation ..
  11. 0
    5 May 2023 14: 19
    Quote: paul3390
    The risk of breaking the blade is too great, and the cutting wounds inflicted by such a light weapon are not quite


    The lightness of the weapon does not really matter. The weapon is lighter, but the blow is faster.
    Kinetics is not only determined by mass.
    You know, a blow with a rebar (an analogue of a sword) breaks bones no worse than a blow with a crowbar (an analogue of a sword).
    The cut wounds from the sword were quite deadly.
    1. +1
      5 May 2023 17: 10
      You don't factor in the deathmatch factor. Inflicting a cutting blow that does not lead to a serious injury to the enemy, you can easily run into a counterattack, which will be fatal for you.

      For in many schools this is a standard combination - to immediately respond to a sweeping secant blow with a direct injection.

      And - I was not talking about a sword, but about a rapier ..
  12. +2
    5 May 2023 22: 48
    After the film "Dartagnan and the Three Musketeers" I went with a few boys to the rapier fencing section. Fortunately, the coach came to our school. We had a chic gym and so that the children did not lose time, training took place at school after studying in several sections. So six months later I took first place and became Dartagnan. But after that, the coach kicked me out, regardless of the merits for the mat in training. And so my musketeer career ended. Since pride did not allow me to ask for forgiveness.
  13. 0
    6 May 2023 08: 33
    Quote: paul3390
    Don't think. For the konchar is actually a replacement for a broken spear. Or when the cavalry is already bogged down in the infantry ranks. Fencing them is an extremely dubious occupation.


    Konchar was especially effective when they delivered accurate piercing blows to weak spots. That is - when making a lunge, which is the basis of fencing.
    1. 0
      6 May 2023 13: 15
      Once again - the konchar is a weapon almost exclusively of a cavalryman. To replace the spear. I don’t really imagine fencing with a sharpened one and a half meter armature ..
  14. 0
    6 May 2023 08: 43
    Quote: paul3390
    Inflicting a cutting blow that does not lead to a serious injury to the enemy, you can easily run into a counterattack, which will be fatal for you.


    I don't know what a cutting blow is. There are chopping blows (hence the cutting on swords).
    As for the counterattack - how to look.
    First, it is quite obvious that they tried to inflict chopping blows, first of all, on the opponent's hand holding the weapon. After a successful chopping blow, the possibility of a counterattack was reduced to zero.
    Secondly, with all the virtues of the sword, she hopelessly lost to such a type of edged weapon as a saber and its successor, a saber.
    The latter - suitable for both stabbing and chopping blows, turned out to be more versatile.

    Interestingly, by the time of the Napoleonic Wars, combat swords (well, or rapiers) were still in service?
    Sabers - yes, broadswords - yes, but swords ... um, I don’t remember in films or books.
    Well, we still actively used checkers in the Civil War.
    In general, the European tradition of using a straight blade lost out to the Eastern tradition of a curved blade.
    1. +2
      6 May 2023 13: 01
      the European tradition of using a straight blade lost to the Eastern tradition of a curved blade.

      And this is understandable. With the disappearance of the armor, the meaning of a purely piercing weapon was also lost. It is clear that a saber strike on an unprotected carcass is much more destructive than a rapier thrust.
  15. 0
    6 May 2023 08: 55
    Quote: Trilobite Master

    A group fight is significantly different from a duel. The enemy can be on either side, the room for maneuver is limited, so protective equipment is mandatory, which means that the weapon should be heavier and shorter.
    And yes, taking blade for blade is a stupidity that our ancestors did not suffer from. Blade defense did not involve repulsing the blow with a counter blow, it was carried out by parrying, retracting the blade, etc. This is in all fechtbooks.


    Um. Long two-handed swords were used only for duels?
    The constraint affected not only the length of the blade, but also the style of combat. Slashing in tight spaces is easier than lunging.

    Protective equipment went down in history much earlier than melee combat. Alas.

    That's just the enemy, armed with a shorter and heavier blade, could deliberately hit the sword, trying to break it and disarm the owner. And just in a cramped space (on the deck of a ship, for example), it was sometimes not easy to avoid the latter.
    I didn't mention pirates for nothing. They, with their machetes (such as daggers), quite successfully coped with the Spaniards, armed with swords, in similar circumstances.

    Fechtbooks are just about fights. In reality, things often happen that are not spelled out in the instructions.
    1. 0
      6 May 2023 13: 04
      With their machetes (such as daggers) they quite successfully coped with the Spaniards armed with swords

      Naturally. When fighting a crowd against a crowd in a cramped space on the deck, on which a bunch of ropes are also stretched, a long sword becomes extremely inconvenient. Sword - she needs space.
  16. +1
    6 May 2023 13: 45
    Quote: paul3390
    Naturally. When fighting a crowd against a crowd in a cramped space on the deck, on which a bunch of ropes are also stretched, a long sword becomes extremely inconvenient. Sword - she needs space.


    Well, the deck is particular. The tightness is not only on the decks. In Russia, after Peter the sword, it seems, were also in use. Just not for very long. They probably abandoned them as a result of taking into account real combat experience in wars with the same Turks.
    Fencing with swords performed by musketeers is beautiful, but cutting with sabers still turned out to be more practical.
    However, this is just my opinion, I insist on it. But if I had to choose, I would not choose a sword.
  17. 0
    6 May 2023 13: 54
    Quote: paul3390
    Once again - the konchar is a weapon almost exclusively of a cavalryman. To replace the spear. I don’t really imagine fencing with a sharpened one and a half meter armature ..


    Of course, there was no full-fledged fencing. But the classic felling (as with a sword) with a konchar is also not optimal. In fact, the konchar was used like a broadsword at a later time. They hit the enemy with a stabbing blow (as well as with a broadsword), thereby practicing the skills of the accuracy of such blows, which are also necessary for fencing.
    Going directly from cutting with swords directly to fencing, however, is problematic.
    There must have been intermediate steps.
    Interestingly, did the horsemen fight with swords? Well, a nobleman on foot is always dumb.
    A nobleman needs a horse, after all, status. Or did they dismount to fight with swords?
  18. 0
    7 May 2023 00: 48
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    Constance, as I understand it in current realities, is d'Artagnan's horse.

    D'Artagnan had a "Béarn gelding" of a "yellowish-red color". When he drove it into the city of Meng.
    The current realities to the production of transgender animals, fortunately animals, have not yet reached.
  19. 0
    10 May 2023 11: 27
    They made checkers from Rapiers. She also bent over.
  20. 0
    5 July 2023 14: 53
    Considering the length of the swords, we must bare in mind that people were much shorter than today! I remember being in the museum once, where the knight's attire would not fit a 14 years old youngsters of nowadays!