German diesel-electric submarines gone down in history

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German diesel-electric submarines gone down in history

Yes, 120 years old story German diesel-electric submarines Germany is finished. The last page has been added to it.

In general, to be historically accurate, the first German submarines were not diesel-electric, but kerosene-electric, but less vicious and efficient weapons from this they did not.



The best example was the events of September 22, 1914, it’s hard to call this a battle, when a boat under the command of Otto Weddigen sank three British armored cruisers, Aboukir, Hog and Cressy, within an hour.


Yes, cruisers were not first-class ships, but they were outdated, but cruisers. The fact that three cruisers were sunk by a boat that had 4 torpedo tubes with six torpedoes (artillery on this type appeared a year later) only says that skillful hands and good weapons are the key to victory over any enemy.


Otto Weddigen

In general, what the German submariners did in the First World War was out of the ordinary, and Britain, bearing the title of "Mistress of the Seas", had many problems due to the actions of German submarines.


The Germans caused serious damage to world merchant shipping. On average, out of every 100 ships that left the ports of England, 25 were sunk by German submariners. During the First World War, German boats sank 5 merchant ships with a total carrying capacity of over 861 million reg. tons, as well as 11 surface warships, including 156 battleships, 10 cruisers and 20 destroyers.

Of the 372 German submarines that took part in the First World War, 178 (48%) were lost. One destroyed submarine accounted for about 74 thousand reg. tons carrying capacity of sunk merchant ships.

But even in the most terrible dreams in Britain, they could not imagine what would begin in some 30 years, when the “Wolf packs” of the Kriegsmarine would put the country on the brink of starvation, sinking all the ships that went to British ports.


Kriegsmarine boats during the years of World War II sank 149 enemy warships, including two battleships, three aircraft carriers, five cruisers, eleven destroyers and many other ships, with a total of 2 and a total tonnage of 919 gross register tons.


The aircraft carrier "Koreydzhes", the first aircraft carrier sunk by a submarine. But not the last

The Kriegsmarine started the war with 57 submarines, and during the war years 1113 boats were built. 863 took part in the fighting, 753 were killed.


But the damage suffered by the Allies testifies both to the level of training of the crews and the quality of the submarines that left the German shipyards.

Here the boat U-2540 can serve as an example.


Launched in 1945, on February 24, 1945, she was accepted into service and enrolled in the 31st training submarine flotilla. May 4, 1945 was scuttled by the crew.

12 years later, in June 1957, U-2540 was raised, repaired and commissioned into the Bundesmarine. Under the name "Whale" (Wal), the boat first served to test new instruments and mechanisms, and on September 1, 1960, it was named "Wilhelm Bauer", in honor of the first German submarine engineer. She served as an experimental boat until August 28, 1968.

Then there was a long overhaul, but on May 20, 1970, the boat was again taken into service. On May 6, 1980, that is, at the age of 35, the boat collided with the destroyer Z3. It was decided to terminate the operation of the boat, on March 15, 1982, it was decommissioned and converted into a museum, which it still remains as. That is, it is confidently approaching its 100th anniversary.


In general, they could and knew how to build submarines in Germany. Moreover, it happened because initially Germany lagged behind the pace of building ships in the UK at the beginning of the last century. And there was less money at the disposal of the German naval command. Hence it turned out that the bet on a new weapon was made unintentionally, but based on the circumstances. But it turned out to be more than effective.

The First World War brought the Germans world-class prestige in the development and construction of submarines. No wonder British Rear Admiral Wilson said that "submarine warfare does not fit into the concept of a noble military duel".

“Secret warfare has always been illegal. Opponents must fight face to face, dressed in easily recognizable uniforms. Therefore, the submarine as a backstage unfair weapon should be damned in England. In wartime, our government should treat all foreign submarines as pirate ships and execute their crews by hanging.”

But the German admirals were not so categorical in their judgments. Perhaps because they better understood the essence of the issue and understood that hanging is a much more humane and quick death than drowning with a submarine without the slightest chance of salvation.

And it was the victories of German submariners in the First World War that brought submarines from auxiliary coastal defense weapons to the class of attacking sea and ocean.


The winners quite rightly imposed a ban on the construction of submarines in post-war Germany - this was one of the points of the Versailles Peace Treaty of 1919.

But the Germans did not stop work - the company NV Ingenieurskantoor voor Scheepsbouw (IVS) appeared in Holland. The heart, of course, was the German designers and engineers, about the same as it happened with the Fokker. It was a foreign project of the German shipyards AG Vulcan, Germaniawerft from Kiel and AG Weser from Bremen.

And the company worked more than fruitfully, having completed a number of contracts with Finland, Spain, Turkey and the USSR. Yes, those same submarines of the "C" series are the business of German heads.


And when 1933 came, all business in Holland was quickly curtailed and the staff began to work hard on the revival of the Kriegsmarine already at home, in Germany.

After the surrender, Germany was divided into zones of occupation, which had a negative impact on submarine shipbuilding, and the FRG began developing its new submarines only at the very end of the 50s. Three boats of the Type 201 project with a displacement of 400 tons were built. The lead one, named U-1, entered service in 1961.


Then there was the Type 205 project, which turned out to be more successful than the previous one, and therefore 9 ships were built within its framework and several Type 201 boats were rebuilt.


Type 205

In 1970-1975, 18 Type 206 submarines with a total displacement of 500 tons were assembled, which easily served until the end of the century. Plus, the same boats were exported to the Israeli Navy.


Type 206

The Type 205 was based on the Type 207.


It was a full-fledged export-oriented variant. And he received recognition: 15 boats were ordered by Norway, boats built in 1964-67, having served their time in the Norwegian fleet, were transferred to Denmark (three boats) and Poland (five boats). Polish boats served for a very long time, the last two ("Skolpen" built in 1966 and "Svenner" built in 1967) were decommissioned in December 2021. More than decent service life.

And Norway thoroughly got hooked on German submarines and ordered a batch of the next project, Type 210 with a displacement of 1040 tons. The boats were received between 1989 and 1991, and are still in operation.

For Israel, in general, a special project Type 800 was developed.


According to this project, three boats were built at the beginning of the century: Dolphin, Leviathan and Tekuma. And after that, three more boats of the next class "Tanin" were built, which were the same Type 800, but with a 10-meter insert for an auxiliary anaerobic power plant.

But the Type 800 actually became a dead end in the development of German submarines and did not go into a large series. But the Type 209, a project designed specifically for export, now it has become a bestseller.


The development of this boat began in the late 60s, but the Type 209 ascended the throne in the 70s and 80s. The boat turned out to be very successful, and even with great potential for further upgrades. In total, several options were built, depending on the desire of the customer, the displacement varied from 1200 to 1800 tons.

For thirty years, before the beginning of the new century, Type 209 was sold out pretty well:
- Argentina - 2;
- Chile - 2;
- Colombia - 3;
- Ecuador - 2;
- Greece - 8;
- Peru - 6;
- Venezuela - 2;
- Indonesia - 2;
- India - 4;
- South Korea - 6;
- Türkiye - 10.

India, South Korea and Türkiye assembled boats on their territory. And in the waters of South America, every second submarine was "German". Confession…


But in the new century, Type 209 did not go unnoticed. South Korea assembled 3 boats at its own (if not foreign!) shipyards, Turkey 4 more boats, Indonesia built 3 boats.

In addition, Germany built 1 boat for Brazil, 3 boats for South Africa, 4 boats for Egypt.

Thus, 68 boats were built in 50 years. To date, 4 boats have been decommissioned for various reasons and one has sunk. But 63 boats are serving in the fleets of 14 countries, although some are already beginning to lose their combat capability.

The Type 209 boat is not cheap. In 2006, one boat sold for $286 million. By the end of the construction of the 209 series, the price had risen to $ 500 million, but even such a considerable price pales before the price of the new Type 212A boat, which hovered in the region of a billion dollars.

And today, the Type 209 is technically still in the line of the manufacturer, Thyssen-Krupp Marine Systems (TKMS), but the German Navy is no longer placing orders for this boat. License assembly in the same South Korea or Indonesia is a rather profitable business, since it allows you to shift the least profitable parts of production onto the shoulders of others.

And now - a completely logical announcement that Thyssen-Krupp Marine Systems are refusing to produce diesel-electric submarines and are switching to the production of submarines with an air-independent power plant (VNEU). It is also called anaerobic.

The Type 212A and its simplified export version, the Type 214, remain in production.


In addition, there are even newer (but not necessarily cheaper) Type 212CD and 218 designs.


A new round of development? Definitely yes.

Of course, boats with VNEU differ sharply from conventional diesel-electric submarines, primarily in autonomy. If the Type 209, chic in its performance characteristics, could continuously move under water without surfacing for up to three days, then the Type 218 could have been under water for three weeks.

The gap, of course, is fantastic, previously available only to nuclear submarines. But you have to pay for everything. Submarines with VNEU are much more complicated, and therefore more expensive, but they also require special coastal infrastructure. Naturally, it's not cheap either.

It is clear that not everyone can afford a boat with VNEU. Naturally, the countries of South America, precisely because of financial circumstances, chose diesel-electric submarines for themselves. And as of the beginning of 2023, 68 Type 209 diesel-electric boats and only 30 boats with VNEU were built (considering two boats, Turkish and Singaporean, which are being tested).

Therefore, in quantitative terms, the figures for the construction of boats of the twentieth century (DEPL) and XXI (VNEU) turned out to be comparable: 21 diesel-electric submarines of the Type 209 project (counting together with Israeli boats of the Type 800 project) and 25 boats with VNEU.

Here, of course, it is worth asking the question: is it not in vain that TKMS practically abandoned the development of something new, or the modernization of the 209th project, in the presence of orders for diesel-electric submarines?


Apparently not in vain. Of course, those boats from the 209th, which will be assembled at foreign shipyards, will bring some penny to the Thyssen-Krupp cash desk. But it is obvious that the concern considered the 209th project to have exhausted its capabilities. After all, 50 years. For a submarine project, this is a lot, after all, a submarine is not a tank.

The fact that the world's leading manufacturer (and Germany, together with Russia and France, is the top three in the production of diesel-electric submarines) refuses to continue work on diesel-electric submarines, says a lot at once. Including the fact that the engineers of such a well-known company believe that the diesel-electric submarine has exhausted all the possibilities for further development and the future belongs to more expensive, but more efficient boats with VNEU.

But one way or another: Thyssen-Krupp Marine Systems announces to everyone that no more diesel-electric submarines will be built. Anyone who wants to can go to French or Russian shipbuilders, but for the rest there is a reason to think about equipping their fleet with submarines with VNEU, fortunately, Thyssen-Krupp Marine Systems has a choice.

The age of diesel-electric submarines is clearly coming to an end. After all, the more orders there are for boats of projects 218, the lower the price will be for them. market laws.

No one says that diesel-electric submarines will completely leave the scene, of course not! Third world countries must equip their fleets with something, right? And those boats that have been released in the last couple of decades will surely change more than one owner.

But in those countries whose navies can be used for their intended purpose, they will most likely start thinking about equipping the latest boats with VNEU, since this gives a real advantage.

By the way, what do we have with the project 677 "Lada"?
97 comments
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  1. +11
    April 8 2023 04: 51
    The article is not bad, the conclusion is wrong. It's too early to bury a diesel boat. There are places where only it can be used. Shallow water, the most common areas. In addition, the APU power plants are still too raw and there are many problems. One of them is the oxidation of tanks with an oxidizer (even stainless steel rots). Another question is what type of VNU to install. Renewable or refillable? As is already clear from the names, renewable after the oxidizer and hydrogen are used up, they must be restored. This is water splitting, minus, you need a lot of electricity. You need a powerful generator and sophisticated electrical equipment. The second type, refueling. Accordingly, the stock is only stored on the ship, refueled at the base. Naturally, after being used up, either to the base or an ordinary diesel-electric submarine. And since most diesel-electric submarines with VNU are refueling, TADAAA! These are ordinary diesel-electric submarines with BENEFITS and during the war period they are dangerous for the crews themselves. For on the early boats of Germany, pr.212, the tanks with oxidizer and fuel were stored inside the boat, with a burst of the khan to the crew, they would not even have time to gasp. On later modifications, they installed it outside, in battle, a rush and behind you a magnificent trail of bubbles.
    1. +11
      April 8 2023 07: 04
      Size comparison: German Navy Type 212A U-31 (S-181) and Type 206 U-29 (S-178).

      1. -2
        April 15 2023 00: 40
        Maybe the boats are excellent, but somehow clumsy in appearance, they lack our elegance.
  2. +5
    April 8 2023 05: 18
    In the late USSR, and then in Russia, they develop their own submarine with VNEU, and the cart, as they say, is still there. Diesel-electric systems are really the last century, so it is natural that the Germans refuse them, as the Japanese and French have already refused. .
    1. +11
      April 8 2023 07: 42
      The Japanese have already managed to abandon VNEU and return to diesel-electric submarines.
      1. 0
        April 8 2023 13: 27
        Quote: SVD68
        The Japanese have already managed to abandon VNEU and return to diesel-electric submarines.


        And the Japanese abandoned modern weapons and returned to swords. And of course, the Japanese returned to tube TVs, which are very noise-resistant;

        When you write your conjectures, try to give links. The Japanese have long ago completely abandoned diesel-electric installations and are not going to return to them. There are no pluses in them - they have a very mediocre efficiency, they take up much more space, they require much more maintenance personnel and service work, they do not allow you to go under water for a long time, etc. It is possible to list the disadvantages of diesel-electric systems for a very long time. ..
        1. +9
          April 8 2023 21: 08
          Last year, VO had a lot of materials about the abandonment of VNEU in favor of lithium batteries, including in Japan. At this stage, it was considered more effective.
          1. +1
            April 8 2023 22: 11
            Quote: Oleg812spb
            Last year, VO had a lot of materials about the abandonment of VNEU in favor of lithium batteries, including in Japan. At this stage, it was considered more effective.


            Japan is not returning to the traditional system of old submarines with a dependent air-dependent propulsion plant, but creates a revolutionary electric propulsion system powered by lithium-ion batteries, with which it will no longer be necessary to have a diesel air-independent power plant on board. This is not yet the case in any other country. In fact, this is an underwater Tesla. But the most remarkable thing is that such Japanese submarines will drastically reduce the onboard crew and in general such a submarine becomes 30% shorter than a conventional Japanese submarine on an air-independent installation.
            1. +7
              April 9 2023 00: 54
              Quote from iran
              creates a revolutionary lithium-ion electric propulsion system, with which it will no longer be necessary to have a diesel air-independent propulsion system on board.

              And then we just look at the energy density of pouring it into an ion battery and compare it with the energy density in diesel fuel. And we understand that no revolutionary boat that could charge on the shore and perform combat missions simply will not work due to the almost tenfold difference in energy density.
              The Japanese simply use new batteries that allow you to really stay under water under them for much longer than on conventional lead ones, but the power plant, whether it be diesel or some other kind, will be present on board
            2. +2
              April 10 2023 02: 18
              Is it okay that Tesla travels tiny distances, and at the same time weighs more than normal cars? You can make a submarine on hamsters in a wheel - this is also nowhere to be found.
              And lithium batteries are more vulnerable, they burn.
        2. +1
          April 10 2023 02: 14
          >VNEU
          What is this magic? Perpetum mobile? Nothing that diesel is one of the most capacious energy carriers?
    2. +9
      April 8 2023 08: 17
      In the late USSR, and then in Russia, they are developing their own submarine with VNEU,
      We already had boats with VNEU 615 of the project, they were called "lighters" because of the accident rate. This is 50-60 years old.
      1. -2
        April 8 2023 10: 49
        Quote: Aviator_
        In the late USSR, and then in Russia, they are developing their own submarine with VNEU,
        We already had boats with VNEU 615 of the project, they were called "lighters" because of the accident rate. This is 50-60 years old.

        Project 615 is not a diesel-electric submarine with a VNU, it is a diesel-electric submarine with exhaust gas regeneration. There were chlorine filters. The same ones were in the bubble-free breathing apparatus of combat swimmers. learn materiel!
        1. +13
          April 8 2023 13: 32
          Quote: letinant
          Project 615 is not a diesel-electric submarine with a VNU, it is a diesel-electric submarine with exhaust gas regeneration. There were chlorine filters.

          Not certainly in that way. 615A had a SINGLE engine (diesel) for underwater and surface movement, and NPLs have separate parts of the power plant for surface and underwater movement.
          For scuba diving on diesel engines, the lead boat pr. 615A had two tanks with liquid oxygen with a total weight of 8,5 tons and 14,4 tons lime type chemical absorber.
          There is no mention of any "chlorine". Lime absorber "works" with carbon dioxide, however, it absorbs and decomposes CO2.
          -- Free advice:
          learn materiel!
    3. +6
      April 8 2023 09: 43
      Oh, don't rush to bury them. No one has yet tested how VNEU will behave in a real combat situation, with an equal enemy under fire.
      1. +12
        April 8 2023 10: 23
        In a battle with an equal opponent, a discovered boat is a destroyed boat. So it does not matter at all how she behaves under fire.
        1. +10
          April 8 2023 13: 37
          Quote: UAZ 452
          In a battle with an equal opponent, a discovered boat is a destroyed boat.

          There are, however, options:
          - evasion of ASW attacks using depth maneuvers, the use of simulators and LCs, and finally, the use of anti-tank weapons.
          And of course, an immediate attack on the enemy from on-duty TAs with homing torpedoes...
          AHA.
          1. +5
            April 8 2023 14: 40
            And in which of these options will VNEU in one form or another prove to be a fatal problem for the boat and its crew? Namely, this message was in the commentary of the respected Puzoter. If torpedoes began to explode next to the strong hull, then what is VNEU, what is diesel ... It's time to sing "the enemy does not surrender ..." For it will not work to surrender anyway.
    4. +10
      April 8 2023 10: 46
      Quote from iran
      In the late USSR, and then in Russia, they develop their own submarine with VNEU, and the cart, as they say, is still there. Diesel-electric systems are really the last century, so it is natural that the Germans refuse them, as the Japanese and French have already refused. .

      What are the Germans giving up? From diesel-electric submarines, then let me ask you a diesel-electric submarine with a VNU, what is the main engine? Or in Germany they began to build atamaches with VNU?
      1. +11
        April 8 2023 13: 43
        Quote: letinant
        Quote from iran
        In the late USSR, and then in Russia, they develop their own submarine with VNEU, and the cart, as they say, is still there. Diesel-electric systems are really the last century, so it is natural that the Germans refuse them, as the Japanese and French have already refused. .

        What are the Germans giving up? From diesel-electric submarines, then let me ask you a diesel-electric submarine with a VNU, what is the main engine? Or in Germany they began to build atamaches with VNU?

        You are right: The author is somewhat frivolous with terminology. At the same time, it does not say anything about the Japanese and Korean fourth-generation nuclear submarines, in which they abandoned the VENU, giving volumes and weights to conformal high-capacity LIABs. However, compact DGs remained on board for recharging the AB AB.
  3. +21
    April 8 2023 05: 29
    If we focus on a specific region of application, then I do not see the need for the Black Sea Fleet or the Caspian Flotilla to build submarines with VNEU for three weeks of underwater autonomy. The proximity of their coastal bases and the limited water areas make it possible to step over this technology and switch to high-capacity batteries. In the Baltic, which has turned into a NATO sea, it seems that the expediency of our submarine fleet is completely dying off. There remains the Sea of ​​Japan, where there is a huge need for boats with VNEU. Although the Japanese themselves are already switching to batteries instead of VNEU, maybe we should not catch up, but immediately step over? winked
    1. +4
      April 8 2023 05: 40
      I don’t see the need for the Black Sea Fleet or the Caspian Flotilla to build submarines with VNEU for three weeks of underwater autonomy

      Here I remember that many, especially of the "patriotic" citizens, also did not see the point in modernizing the cruiser Moscow ... And then they freaked out together when he was gone ...
      1. +5
        April 8 2023 05: 50
        The story of Moscow's self-drowning is something else than a banal write-off on pins and needles. There wasn't even a needle left.
        1. +5
          April 8 2023 06: 28
          Quote: lelik613
          The story of Moscow's self-drowning is something else than a banal write-off on pins and needles. There wasn't even a needle left.

          Have you ever had to deal with the problem of selling an outwardly “new” car in which the owner’s corpse lay?
          You can not live by the principle: "We smoke a meter, we throw two."
      2. +7
        April 8 2023 06: 23
        Quote: spektr9
        Here I remember many especially of the "patriotic" citizens also did not see the point in modernizing the cruiser Moscow... And then they freaked out together when he was gone ...

        A citizen of Russia should not be interested in the opinion of "patriotic" citizens a priori.
        The bulk of users of "VO" could only "go nuts" from the timing of "modernization" and its quality.
        They don’t understand how big a conscience should be when people’s money is spent for years (even decades) to change awl for soap ... And they especially complain about the responsibility of officials (and their absence too) for the quality and timing of the work carried out.
        1. +4
          April 8 2023 10: 03
          how big should a conscience be,

          Jury hi do not judge strictly, not every house has a microscope.
      3. +9
        April 8 2023 06: 33
        many especially from "patriotic" citizens
        Addresses, passwords, appearances... Who dared? But when he was gone, I definitely went nuts ... I never understood where the crew was in the fight for the ship's survivability. And was it just a fire or was there a combat defeat incompatible with buoyancy? winked
        1. +6
          April 8 2023 10: 01
          I never understood where the crew was in the fight for the ship's survivability.

          And where were the brains of the command that sent a ship of this class without air cover? As always, history does not teach our blockheads anything, neither one's own nor someone else's.
          1. +6
            April 8 2023 13: 17
            And where were the brains of the command that sent a ship of this class without air cover?
            Do you have accurate data that "Moscow" was hit by aircraft missiles? I will say more, in our country not a single ship, except for the Kuzi, is covered by aviation, except for one or two airborne helicopters, but they are not for air cover either. Maybe you confused aviation with Moscow's own air defense / missile defense system, which turned out to be "leaky" from low-flying air targets, such as Neptune missiles? If you are talking about a round-the-clock patrol from an A-50U aircraft, then we will not have enough of their flight resource to cover each ship at sea. winked
            1. +1
              April 10 2023 12: 04
              Quote: Saburov_Alexander53
              Do you have accurate data that "Moscow" was hit by aircraft missiles?

              And what about aircraft missiles? The task of air cover is to fight not only with carriers, but also with weapons, including anti-ship missiles.
              Plus, fighters can act as an ersatz-DRLO, at least partially covering low and extremely low altitudes in the most dangerous sectors with their radars.
              Quote: Saburov_Alexander53
              I will say more, in our country not a single ship, except for the Kuzi, is covered by aviation, except for one or two airborne helicopters, but they are not for air cover either.

              Have we already canceled Naval Aviation? Or is interaction with your own sea fliers, but working from the shore, is too complicated sorcery?
              And as soon as the Germans in the Cerberus coped (despite the fact that they had no naval aviation at all - fat German gave the admirals a hand in time, before they killed the squadrons transferred to them with their "skillful" command)? Or how did our people cope during the evacuation of Odessa?
              Quote: Saburov_Alexander53
              If you are talking about a round-the-clock patrol from an A-50U aircraft, then we will not have enough of their flight resource to cover each ship at sea.

              We are talking at least about the duty link of the "Kuznetsov" MiG-29. They don’t care until the end of the TAVKR repair to fly only from the coast - like the Japanese after Midway.
              And yes, where are the pair of Ka-31Rs that appeared at the Black Sea Fleet in 2020?
              As the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation reported on March 13, 2020, the pilots of the naval aviation of the Black Sea Fleet began training flights on the Ka-31R helicopter.
              (...)
              Earlier, on February 26, 2020, the press service of the Southern Military District reported that the crew of the Ka-31R reconnaissance helicopter from the naval aviation and air defense of the Black Sea Fleet (BSF) performed practical flights from the deck of the Admiral Makarov frigate in the Black Sea.
              (...)
              bmpd's comment. Thus, we are talking about the transfer to the 318th separate mixed aviation regiment of the Naval Aviation of the Black Sea Fleet at the Kacha airfield of the only two Ka-31R radar patrol helicopters in the Naval Aviation of the Russian Navy (red side numbers "90" and "91", factory numbers 5232004162714 and 5232004164702).
              © bmpd
      4. +9
        April 8 2023 10: 32
        Here I remember that many, especially of the "patriotic" citizens, also did not see the point in modernizing the cruiser Moscow ... And then they freaked out together when he was gone ...

        Citizens with brains, regardless of the degree of their patriotism, quite rightly did not see the point in modernizing the ships of project 1164, since the modernization options that were offered did not add much to the combat capabilities of these ships, and it would be more expensive to carry out REAL modernization than building a new one a ship with comparable combat effectiveness (not to be confused with displacement). But these same citizens saw even less sense in being in the combat composition of the "Atlantes" in an unmodernized state. Which is tragically true.
        1. 0
          April 8 2023 19: 29
          Citizens with brains, regardless of the degree of their patriotism, quite rightly did not see the point in modernizing the ships of project 1164

          But these same citizens saw even less sense in being in the combat composition of the "Atlantes" in an unmodernized state

          And this is a citizen from the series, we don’t need a fleet with hats in which case we’ll throw it, but there were and there are many of them ... For some reason, it’s true that for some reason they prefer to throw hats on the enemy here, and not on the front line
    2. +8
      April 8 2023 14: 03
      Quote: Saburov_Alexander53
      In the Baltic, which has turned into a NATO sea, it seems that the expediency of our submarine fleet is completely dying off.
      During the Second World War, the Baltic Fleet was practically deprived of a basing system. But even in these unbearable conditions, no one had the thought of abandoning submarines ...
      Are you sure "one of ours"?
      Quote: Saburov_Alexander53
      the Japanese are already switching to batteries instead of VNEU, maybe we should not catch up, but immediately step over?
      Ours are trying ... At least 4 "organizations" are sawing this topic. For me, the work of Malachite on VNEU based on a closed-cycle gas turbine with a single surface and underwater engine seems to be the most promising. Already at the output of VNEU based on the reforming of diesel fuel, which Rubin saws ... Well, and a new discovery of Belarusian scientists to create high-capacity storage devices based on sodium. The capacity at the same volumes is at least 3 times greater than that of LIAB. This is so, as a remark to the question: - "are we going there with my brother?" bully
      1. +3
        April 9 2023 08: 44
        But even in these unbearable conditions, no one had the thought of abandoning submarines ...
        Are you sure "one of ours"?

        Who you have "ours", I do not presume to judge. But I know the history of our submarines in the Baltic thoroughly, I myself am a submariner and it was not an idle interest. I re-read all the memoirs of submariners and I know about victories and defeats. In the USSR, we were told more about the victories, and especially at the end of the war, when we managed to uncork the Gulf of Finland and base ourselves on Finnish bases. But before that, the losses of submarines were so huge that they did not justify their use in the Baltic. But they were driven to the slaughter, and fictitious victories were attributed to the crews, for the sake of good reporting. But after the war, it turned out that half of the enemy ships and vessels "sunk" by our submarines had been plying the expanses of the seas and oceans for decades. The most striking example is the attack on the battleship Tirpitz, albeit not in the Baltic. Lunin was simply forced to believe that he could not do it, and all for the sake of propaganda with the additions of victories to submariners.
        And for the info about VNEU plus you from me, thanks!
        1. +3
          April 9 2023 10: 35
          I recommend reading if you wish: https://libcat.ru/knigi/nauka-i-obrazovanie/istoriya/303739-oleg-strizhak-sekrety-baltijskogo-podplava.html
          This is a book by Oleg Strizhak "Secrets of the Baltic submarine" and the bitter truth that our submariners had to endure in the Baltic.
      2. +3
        April 10 2023 12: 16
        Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
        During the Second World War, the Baltic Fleet was practically deprived of a basing system. But even in these unbearable conditions, no one had the thought of abandoning submarines ...

        After the war, it didn't. Because the USSR directly or indirectly controlled the entire southern coast of the Baltic almost to the Straits and partially indirectly controlled the northern one. Under such conditions, the existence of submarines made sense.
        And now we have the situation of 1943. The Russian Federation controls only the southern coast of the Gulf of Finland and a piece of the coast near Koenig. Everything else is under the control of the enemy. It remains only for the Finns and Estonians to restore the Nargen-Porkkaludd line - and it will be like in that war, when the KBF submarines in 1943, one after another, died at the anti-submarine line, unable to break through it. And this problem was solved only after Finland left the war and the submarines were relocated to Finnish skerries.
        1. +2
          April 11 2023 10: 32
          And now we have the situation of 1943. The Russian Federation controls only the southern coast of the Gulf of Finland and a piece of the coast near Koenig.
          I'm talking about the same ... And given the technical progress in the search and detection of submarines at the current time, then there is no chance at all to get out of the Gulf of Finland if there is a war. The isolation of the base in the Navy in Kaliningrad (Baltiysk) makes our submarines suicide bombers or "disposable", as my first officer said. Although we had a free exit from the Rakushka base in the Pacific Fleet in the Sea of ​​Japan and a depth that immediately allowed us to hide.
  4. +9
    April 8 2023 05: 57
    Yes, those same submarines of the "C" series are the business of German heads.

    The largest number of submarines built (215 units) is the Soviet post-war project 613, which was actually the German project XXI improved and adapted to Soviet conditions.
    1. +10
      April 8 2023 06: 24
      was actually improved and adapted to Soviet conditions by the German project XXI.
      And so it was! But what is your message? Are we so stupid that we couldn’t do it ourselves, or are we great that we were able to use the achievements of the Germans? Of course, there is an American way to achieve technological progress - to buy up all the best minds in the world and use them to create a nuclear bomb or missiles. For me, the result is so important, at any cost. winked
      1. AUL
        +8
        April 8 2023 09: 57
        And it scratched me again
        The Kriegsmarine started the war with 57 submarines, and during the war years 1113 boats were built.
        1113/6=186 pieces per year. And this is in a warring country!
        1. +7
          April 8 2023 12: 58
          Read materials about the construction of submarines in Germany. In the summer of 1944, more than 40 boats per month were taken into operation, the maximum was 43 submarines in July. Moreover, if the Allied aircraft had not bombed the factories in Bremen in the same year, Germany could have reached the production of 80 submarines per month. The construction of the submarine proceeded by analogy with the construction of the Liberty transport ships in the United States. The assembly speed of "Liberty" sometimes reached unthinkable results and the absolute record is 4 days, 15 hours, 29 minutes. But this is one separate ship, and a dozen ships were built at the shipyards at the same time. In the same way, with submarines in Germany, parts and mechanisms were made throughout the country, and assembly was carried out at several shipyards.
          1. +2
            April 9 2023 10: 48
            The object "Valentin" in Bremen for the construction of submarines during the war, according to the plan, was to produce a finished boat every 56 hours. And this is only this plant, but there were others. The concrete ceiling above the plant with 13 assembly blocks was supposed to withstand a 10 ton bomb. At the end of March 1945, the British inflicted a defeat with a special bomb, and two weeks later brought troops there ...
          2. -1
            April 11 2023 16: 09
            Take the trouble to list the types of these boats, otherwise it turns out that this is a two-crew submarine, comrade "submariner"
            1. 0
              April 12 2023 11: 48
              Take the trouble to list the types of these boats, otherwise it turns out that this is a two-crew submarine,
              Maxim, take the trouble to look on the Internet, at least with a request for the "Valentin" object. There you will also learn about the type of boats and how many they managed to release in Bremen. However, it's not difficult for me, here's the link:
              https://fishki.net/2537163-bremen--bunker-valentin.html
              Further, if the numbers really hit you so hard that the term "two-crew submarine" appeared out of place, take a look here:
              https://germanygid.ru/podvodnyj-flot-tretego-rejha/
              By the way, on the boats of the cruising project, where I happened to serve as a radio operator, there really were two full-time crews of 75 people each. What did you mean, crew of two? So these were not boats, but human-controlled torpedoes. smile
        2. 0
          April 11 2023 16: 11
          You need to see not only the quantity, types of submarines, what and when is laid down
      2. AAK
        +5
        April 8 2023 18: 18
        Here, dear colleague Alexander, as in the old Jewish parable - "... and you are right, my son, and you are right, my son ..." in the period of the 20s - 50s this concerned not only the PL, but also aircraft engines, and nuclear and rocket topics, and chemistry, and precision mechanics, and much, much more ...
  5. +9
    April 8 2023 07: 42
    German submarines ceased to be a formidable weapon already in 1943, when the US and British Navy received the latest sonars, direction finders, long-range seaplanes like the Catalina.
    In 1944, the Allies almost destroyed German submarines in the Atlantic, and a turning point occurred in the Battle of the Atlantic - in 1944 and 1945, merchant ships sailed from the USA to Great Britain and back without convoys.
    1. +6
      April 8 2023 08: 59
      There is no VNEU on project 677, this does not mean that we cannot create it, just the installation of any type of VNEU, well, it greatly complicates the construction and operation of boats. To the list of diesel fuel, batteries add a supply of liquid oxygen, a Stirling chemical absorber, or a liquid oxygen chemical equipment for reforming diesel fuel, a chemical absorber, or a liquid oxygen combined-cycle turbine, a chemical absorber, or 100% hydrogen peroxide, a combined-cycle boiler, a turbine, a chemical absorber. absorber, if in the last version this alcohol is burned in peroxide, then the output will be water and pure carbon dioxide, which can be liquefied and thus do without an absorber. At the same time, it is necessary to take into account VNEU, as a rule, they can only provide an economical move at low speeds, and for example, stirlings cannot be made with a large unit power and you have to put more than one even on a small submarine. at the same time, any VNEU requires continuous operation of fuel pumps, cooling circulation pumps, possibly equipment for liquefying carbon dioxide, and this all creates noise. And most importantly, to install VNEU on a double-hull boat in which 30-40% of water (in project 677 underwater displacement 2650 surface 1765 buoyancy margin 33%,) is probably impossible in principle, the entire positive buoyancy margin of the strong hull is spent to compensate for the negative buoyancy of the light hull, which surrounds strong on all sides and therefore weighs a lot.
      that is, if you squeeze a Dewar vessel with liquid oxygen, which is heavier than water, then the weight balance will immediately be disturbed, and why remove it to make it easier.
      1. +9
        April 8 2023 13: 08
        agond There is no VNEU on the 677 project, this does not mean that we cannot create it, just installing any type of VNEU, well, it greatly complicates the construction and operation of boats.

        These are the conversations: it's expensive, there is no money - and they lead to the fact that we have nothing, and what we have dies quickly. Name the base where there were or are stationary coastal compressors? Only on the NSR, but in the Navy - it's expensive. Steam heating of missile silos of project 941 in the database has never been, expensive ... etc., etc.
    2. +11
      April 8 2023 10: 09
      German submarines ceased to be a formidable weapon already in 1943, when the US and British Navy received the latest sonars, direction finders, long-range seaplanes
      Of course, for every tricky nut there is a threaded bolt.⁠⁠
    3. +14
      April 8 2023 11: 15
      I take my hat off to the submariners of any country and time!
      The Airborne Forces, in comparison with them, are "whipping boys" in terms of psychological stability. Paratroopers work at the moment on adrenaline, submariners - under constant psychological stress. You have to have nerves of steel, to sit in a steel box at depth for days and weeks. I’ve been on diesel-electric submarines and there was only one thought - it’s scary and crowded here, let alone fight ... In the event of an accident, this is almost guaranteed death. And if you’re lucky, death is instant, and not from hypothermia and suffocation for several days .. .
      A separate caste of brave suicide bombers is submariners on nuclear submarines.
      1. +2
        April 11 2023 20: 27
        . A separate caste of brave suicide bombers is submariners on nuclear submarines.


        Thank you for your understanding.
      2. -1
        April 15 2023 00: 57
        Jager-I join your opinion! hi hi
    4. +9
      April 8 2023 15: 16
      Quote: Flibuster
      The US and British navies received the latest sonars, direction finders, long-range seaplanes like the Catalina.


      Here all the same (as it is now clear) there was room for maneuver - it was possible, for example, to involve the Germans in the occupied countries in the manufacture of submarine parts. Cut down missile programs and redirect them to the production of air defense missiles to protect against bombing, including missiles for the self-defense of submarines from aviation.
      Try to find more allies - for example, in Latin America, Asia and Africa; in the same India and in pre-war Cuba, German centers of power and infrastructure could well have been. "Liberty Island" until 1940 markedly sympathized with the Germans, which is why throughout the war there were rumors that the Germans secretly used small bases hidden in the bays along the coast of Cuba, which were used to resupply submarines; and it was precisely because the Germans "missed" Cuba that they created the U-Boot-Klasse XIV and could only stay off the American coast for a short time.
  6. +8
    April 8 2023 08: 18
    And what, in boats with VNEU, there are no diesel engines at all? Also, what about batteries? As far as I understand, it’s just that the battery has turned from the main energy carrier for underwater travel into an auxiliary one, for powering energy consumers underwater. The title of the article is INCORRECT.
    ... then Type 218 could have been under water for three weeks.
    And how many miles can a boat under VNEU go in three weeks? That it would be possible to compare it with atomic. And what is the maximum underwater speed without batteries, only with VNEU?
    And let's not forget Dollezhal's Egg as a great alternative to all those Stirlings, ECGs, etc.
    1. +9
      April 8 2023 13: 16
      In general, there are small-sized nuclear reactors that could possibly fit on small submarines. If you do not suffer from megalomania for only nuclear submarines, then for small submarines you can make a suitable nuclear reactor since an anaerobic installation is not possible.
      1. +5
        April 8 2023 22: 47
        Eat. The dimensions of the boats of the Lira project correspond to the dimensions of diesel-electric submarines. The underwater displacement of these nuclear submarines is 3180 tons, and the modern Varshavyanka is 3950 tons. The length is 705 - 81 m, 630 - 73 m.

        Now you can sit and think, if boats with VNEU are really so expensive to manufacture and operate, wouldn’t it be better to return to small-sized nuclear submarines with lead-cooled reactors. Moreover, new reactors of this type have already been created taking into account the mistakes made in the past.
        1. +1
          April 9 2023 10: 45
          You just read about these Liras, about why the boats of this project served in the Navy, probably less than any other nuclear submarines. About their noise, prohibitive (even for the USSR) complexity and high cost of operation. I do not know which of their shortcomings are fundamental, and which were simply "childhood illnesses" of technology. But since this direction has not been developed anywhere (in the form of new boats, and not experimental reactors - technology demonstrators), it means that they have not yet coped with all the fundamental problems.
          1. +1
            April 10 2023 02: 41
            A lead-cooled reactor, like, for example, the RD-180 rocket engine, the know-how of Soviet engineering and design schools. Theoretically, anyone can build. In practice, it doesn't work. And without this unique reactor, the creation of such a boat is impossible. This reactor is unsurpassed in compactness.
            The boat was really difficult and problematic. But its capabilities for that time were prohibitive. The noise you are talking about was only at high speeds, like all boats. Well, there the speeds were crazy by the standards of submarines.
            The fundamental shortcomings of the boats and the reactor are known. They have been corrected in new projects.

            Rosatom is currently building an industrial power unit of the BREST project with a lead coolant. It means that the fundamental problems have been dealt with.

            In any case, if we are talking not about RTGs, but about compact high-power reactors, there is nothing better yet and is unlikely to appear.
            1. +1
              April 10 2023 11: 58
              Rosatom is currently building an industrial power unit of the BREST project with a lead coolant. It means that the fundamental problems have been dealt with.


              The technology is the same, but the problems caused by the operating conditions may be different, so it’s not at all a fact that they managed it.
        2. 0
          April 12 2023 12: 17
          wouldn't it be better to return to small-sized nuclear submarines with lead-cooled reactors.
          Alex, that's not the point! According to international treaties, which we still adhere to, it is forbidden to have a nuclear fleet in service in the Black and Baltic Seas. Therefore, VNEU was primarily needed there. Our designers probably remember about lead and sodium coolants in reactors and will return to them if they consider it appropriate at a new level of technology. You know the main disadvantage of LMT, the need to constantly maintain the temperature of the molten metal in the circuit, which, when parked in the base or in the dock, requires connection to an external source. And what happened to our first nuclear submarine on the ZhMT K-27, you can read here:
          https://dzen.ru/a/W4rf_LR3WwCpdjTY
  7. +5
    April 8 2023 09: 40
    Diesel-electric submarines will definitely return when their automation makes it possible to manage with a crew of 3-5 people.
  8. +6
    April 8 2023 10: 27
    There was a type 205 U-9 inside the boat, by the way, very small and compact, only the commander has his own cabin, which is closed with a curtain, you can only go sideways from the central post to the torpedo one.
  9. +4
    April 8 2023 10: 38
    Batteries are rapidly improving. Soon, all these crutches in the form of VNEU of the current iterations will simply be of no use to anyone.
    1. +2
      April 8 2023 16: 37
      Quite right. Lada, as they say, has an underwater range of 650 miles, at a speed of 3 knots, this is under water for more than 5 days. Probably, already now it is possible to bring this indicator to 10, or even 15 days, using other batteries. The issue is safety and cost.
    2. +2
      April 8 2023 22: 18
      Quote: UAZ 452
      Batteries are rapidly improving. Soon, all these crutches in the form of VNEU of the current iterations will simply be of no use to anyone.


      Japan already has submarines powered by lithium-ion batteries, which no longer require VNEU on board. For 30 years, ours have not mastered VNEU, and the Japanese are already abandoning VNEU in favor of all-electric power plants.
      1. +3
        April 8 2023 22: 59
        That is, you credit them, and reproach ours with the fact that the Japanese spent a hell of a lot of money on the VNEU fashion theory, made idle crap and returned to where they started? But ours did not do this ... Hmm ... interesting logic. For some reason, I thought that the design genius consisted in being able to weed out unviable concepts based on knowledge and experience at the THEORY and PROJECT stages. And it turns out you need to do everything "in nature." I think that you are personally ready to donate both your income and the income of your family to these delights, right? :)

        In my opinion, it is just very fortunate that ours did not rush into this race, limiting themselves to full-scale experiments. Somehow I don’t smile at paying out of my own pocket, the obliques of an inquisitive engineering mind, excited by articles in Popular Mechanics.

        In another comment above, I already wrote that we already have a solution to the problem of a small-sized submarine with a long underwater range. If you need just such a boat. But diesel-electric submarines are taken first of all by cheapness.
        1. +2
          April 9 2023 10: 56
          No matter how it turned out that we spent a total of more money on "field experiments" than the Japanese on really working VNEU.
          And in the mind - the fleet, and in general all the armed forces must be ready for war at any time. If we wait for the enemy to bring his military technologies to perfection, hit bumps and spend resources on dead-end paths, and we, so smart and cunning, take into account their mistakes and immediately go on the right path, then situations will inevitably arise when all sorts of Armats and Coalitions exist in single "ceremonial" copies, and T-62s are fighting. The same situation will be with the submarine fleet, if you suddenly have to fight at sea now or in the near future, and not in some bright (or dark) future.
          1. +1
            April 10 2023 02: 52
            Already tried that. Under the USSR, in the 70s, they decided to create the "most-most" all of themselves, a breakthrough and perfect attack helicopter. The result is known, after half a century we are barely providing our troops with obsolete helicopters of as many as two designs.
            After the collapse of the USSR, they realized to go their own way and form the Air Force on the basis of heavy information security. Giving up easy. As a result, we still cannot replace cars that are half a century old.
            According to your logic, we apparently needed to build a "laser Boeing", rush to develop a railgun and be sure to build a destroyer "belly up". :)
            Who would only give us the money for all this, as the staffers - about 700 billion dollars ... :)
            The world is full of projects of varying degrees of feasibility. Chasing all the fashion trends means being left without anything at all. Don't forget, these very Japanese people you admire so much don't have their own aircraft. F-4s are still flying there. And the entire Air Force fleet was bought in the USA.
        2. +1
          April 9 2023 22: 01
          the Japanese spent a hell of a lot of money on the fashionable theory of VNEU, made idle crap

          The Japanese built 10 submarines with VNEU, they did not develop VNEU, but bought a license for a finished one from the Swedes.
    3. +3
      April 8 2023 23: 07
      Quote: UAZ 452
      Batteries are rapidly improving.

      Unfortunately no. Lithium-ion batteries are discoveries of the 70s and developments of the 80s. The first industrial design was made by Sony in 1991. And their main problem from the moment the development began to this day was a terrible fire hazard. Any violation of the integrity of the battery, and God forbid water gets there and this thing ignites and burns at a high temperature. At the same time, it is practically not subject to quenching.
      And after three years, the battery begins to degrade rapidly and soon loses up to 60-70% of its capacity. Do you think these factors make lithium-ion batteries a good choice for a combat submarine?
      1. +1
        April 9 2023 08: 14
        Quote: abc_alex
        Do you think these factors make lithium-ion batteries a good choice for a combat submarine?


        There are experimental batteries with aqueous non-flammable lithium electrolyte. They have a lot of their own shortcomings.
      2. 0
        April 9 2023 11: 09
        Do you think these factors make lithium-ion batteries a good choice for a combat submarine?

        Of course no. But a nuclear reactor, if you list its shortcomings, is generally an extremely poor choice for a combat submarine, but it is used! Or let's talk about the ingress of water into the reactor core, or its depressurization, the ingress of coolant into the habitable zone.
        The fire hazard of batteries is of course a problem, but you can conjure with a undockable compartment in case of fire. This is clearly easier than developing a new generation of small-sized nuclear reactors, and even ensuring low noise for it, comparable to a purely battery boat (which practically only makes noise with propellers).
        About degradation by 30-40% in three years, most likely your information is somewhat outdated - Tesla gives a significantly longer warranty for its batteries, and progress in this direction is just going at the fastest pace. Yes, and lithium does not disappear from the batteries, so if the battery compartment is structurally designed as a quick-change module, then recharging can be done very quickly, and the elements from the replaced compartment can be sent for recycling. All this will hardly be more time-consuming than the total maintenance work on a diesel engine over the same three years.
        1. +2
          April 10 2023 03: 31
          Quote: UAZ 452
          Of course no. But a nuclear reactor, if you list its shortcomings, is generally an extremely poor choice for a combat submarine, but it is used!


          So after all, a nuclear reactor is an energy GENERATOR. And not storage like a battery. The reactor has an advantage that overcomes all its shortcomings - it is able to keep the boat functioning underwater for months. Ensuring the functioning of all systems. In nuclear submarines, the factor limiting underwater passages is already the crew.
          And the battery cannot generate energy, it must be infected from an external power source.

          Quote: UAZ 452
          Or let's talk about the ingress of water into the reactor core, or its depressurization, the ingress of coolant into the habitable zone.


          It may be like that. But I repeat - months of underwater movement.

          Quote: UAZ 452
          The fire hazard of batteries is of course a problem, but you can conjure with a undockable compartment in case of fire.

          ??? And what's the point? You throw a source of energy into the sea, and then what? To the bottom? A boat without electricity is dead. And diesel does not work under water ...
          Quote: UAZ 452
          This is clearly easier than developing a new generation of small-sized nuclear reactors, and even ensuring low noise for it, comparable to a purely battery boat (which practically only makes noise with propellers).

          How and where will you charge the batteries? The higher the capacity, the longer the charging time. :) A boat with high-capacity batteries is not easy either. Yes, even if you "conjure with a detachable compartment." And you will still get a boat that does not fundamentally differ from the existing ones and loses the nuclear submarine by a multiple in all respects.
          Which is simpler is a complicated question :) We know how to make reactors. We are good at it. Including compact ones with lead coolant. And if we start developing, a positive outcome is guaranteed with a high degree of probability. But VNEU or high-capacity batteries have not yet been learned to do. Whether it works or not is an open question.

          Quote: UAZ 452
          About degradation by 30-40% in three years, most likely your information is somewhat outdated

          But I didn't write that. I wrote: after three years, the battery begins to degrade rapidly and soon loses up to 60-70% capacity. That is, it holds the container for three years. But then the degradation process begins, which leads to a loss of capacity.

          Quote: UAZ 452
          Tesla gives a significantly longer warranty on its batteries.

          ???? And what does Tesla have to do with lithium-ion battery technology? She does not produce them, but collects them from ready-made elements made in China. What and how it gives a guarantee there is an exclusively marketing question, Musk's enterprises are famous for their non-standard approach to fulfilling promises to customers.

          Quote: UAZ 452
          Yes, and lithium does not disappear from the batteries, so if the battery compartment is structurally made in the form of a quickly replaceable module

          It's not all that simple. When charging-discharging, the crystal lattice changes
          Lithium containing elements.
          Yes, the concept of quick-release batteries has been in the air for a long time, but so far it has not even been implemented for a car, and it does not need to create a sealed case that can withstand multi-ton pressure.

          Quote: UAZ 452
          reloading can be done very quickly

          Alas and ah. It is forbidden. The reaction in the battery is chemical. Speed ​​up - it can go wrong and lead to the wrong thing. Modern fast charging is a marketing ploy. The battery is divided into 2-4 banks, charging in parallel. This speeds up the GENERAL process, but at the same time requires a large power source of the charging current.

          Quote: UAZ 452
          All this will hardly be more time-consuming than the total maintenance work on a diesel engine over the same three years.

          So far, this is not done even on cars. :) And I don't know if it's realistic to open the hull of the boat once every three years to replace the batteries. There, the battery will not be the size of a matchbox, tons ...
          1. +1
            April 11 2023 20: 41
            . is it really possible to open the hull of the boat every three years to replace the batteries.


            There is no need to open. A conventional lead battery is loaded / unloaded by the regular crew through a hatch in the hull using a conventional crane. Naturally emergency work briefings and other rigmarole.
            With lithium, there are no differences in organization. The same "banks" under a hundred (and) kg. and a faucet.
            The design of the pl provides for such things.
  10. +3
    April 8 2023 10: 42
    I wonder why the Japanese did not massively use submarines in World War II?
    1. +5
      April 8 2023 13: 21
      I wonder why the Japanese did not massively use submarines in World War II?

      Here everything is written:
  11. +2
    April 8 2023 13: 09
    The aircraft carrier "Koreydzhes", the first aircraft carrier sunk by a submarine. But not the last


    It was a jalopy built in 1917.

    But the fact that the U-81 submarine destroyed the newest British aircraft carrier Ark Royal shocked everyone in 1941. The U-81 submarine was then commanded by 26-year-old lieutenant commander Friedrich Guggenberger.
  12. The comment was deleted.
  13. -1
    April 8 2023 13: 55
    In general, to be historically accurate, the first German submarines were not diesel-electric, but kerosene-electric

    To be historically accurate, Germany's first submarine was a muscle submarine.

    1850 Submarine Wilhelm Bauer.
    But the next ones were already diesel ones, since it is not the name of the fuel that is of fundamental importance. and the method of its ignition. The boat U-1, built in 1906 in Kiel, used 2 Körting Petroleum engines for surface propulsion. It was a classic diesel. And the fact that it used kerosene as fuel, so in those days different types of fuel were used for diesel engines - from oil to lighting gas.
  14. +1
    April 8 2023 14: 18
    German diesel-electric submarines gone down in history

    Well, here the author obviously got excited, since ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems continues to build diesel-electric submarines (Dakar-class for Israel and will build them until at least 2031, Type 212CD for Norway until 2034). The presence of an auxiliary VNEU on these boats does not fundamentally change anything - these boats are diesel-electric.
  15. +7
    April 8 2023 14: 57
    With admiration, I was convinced that Roman Skomorokhov was a player on the pipe. That is, he understands all the subtle nuances of all, without exception, issues of equipment and weapons, as well as the military industry and, what to hide, strategy. After reading, the question arose: why is the American experience not mentioned, even in passing? There is also a submarine, but all boats are nuclear-powered. That is, they completely abandoned diesel engines there, long ago and forever. He scratched his eye and the thesis that hanging is more humane than death along with the boat. Hanging for the military is a disgrace. This is the highest degree of humiliation. Apparently, when preparing the article, Roman got too carried away with copy-paste, and there were no submariners nearby. Either he did not invite people who understand. I am not a submariner, but, having shown the publication to a friend from this higher caste of military personnel, I quickly regretted it - he cursed so subtly that I did not have time to put aside new turns of speech for myself in my subcortex. However, the ruddy moderators would not have printed them anyway. .
    1. +1
      April 9 2023 22: 14
      why is the American experience not mentioned, even in passing? There is also a submarine, but all boats are nuclear-powered. That is, they completely abandoned diesel engines there, long ago and forever.

      They refused because of the special location of the States - overseas from all sides. Now Australia is trying to take the same path.
  16. +2
    April 8 2023 15: 01
    Quote: Subtext
    I wonder why the Japanese did not massively use submarines in World War II?

    Here everything is written:

    Thanks, I read hi
  17. +4
    April 8 2023 18: 06
    Quote: Sea Cat
    do not judge strictly, not every house has a microscope.


    The author wrote:
    “It is not for nothing that British Rear Admiral Wilson said that “submarine warfare does not fit into the concept of a noble military duel.”

    There is no need to give such examples.
    The British are still fiends.
    Starting from the bloody suppression of sepoy uprisings, ending with the sinking of civilian ships with Jewish migrants at the end of World War II.
    These (British) will not blink an eye, they will sink the hospital ships and bomb the absolutely non-military Dresden.
    Only the Zionists are worse than the English executioners.
    PS a good book about submariners: "Steel coffins".
    Blood, sweat, feces - just up to the nostrils, such a sea romance.
    Well, the film of all times and peoples: "Das bot", it's a pity that ours didn't shoot anything like that.
    And what material!
    What is only the attack of the century, Marinesko.
    Or the sinking of Goiy (more than 7000 souls of the Nazis were sent to the bottom of the Black Sea).
  18. +3
    April 8 2023 21: 46
    Vneu uses an engine? It means that under water it rumbles and a boat with an electric drive is much more interesting here.
  19. The comment was deleted.
  20. 0
    April 9 2023 00: 06
    During the First World War, German boats sank 5 merchant ships with a total carrying capacity of over 861 million reg. tons, as well as 11 surface warships, including 156 battleships, 10 cruisers and 20 destroyers.
    10 battleships? Seriously? England had a little more than 30 of them in total.
    1. +2
      April 10 2023 16: 48
      Quote: bk0010
      10 battleships? Seriously? England had a little more than 30 of them in total.

      Duc ... this, apparently, with the old EDB and according to the Russian classification of 1907.
      You remember that wonderful moment when "The Twelve Apostles" suddenly became on a par with "Sevastopol". smile
  21. +1
    April 9 2023 00: 56
    Quote: lelik613
    The story of Moscow's self-drowning is something else,

    Since when did this defeat by enemy fire become self-drowning?
    I remind you that the ships located at the pier in Berdyansk were hit by a rocket recognized only a year later.
    Therefore, we are waiting for revelations about Moscow
  22. 0
    April 9 2023 06: 51
    It remains to wait until domestic boats and VNEU for it are ready, and find out how the designers managed to fulfill the technical requirements and the necessary characteristics. We have already heard a fair amount of promises, but things are still there.
    1. +2
      April 9 2023 09: 12
      Quote: not the one

      not the one
      Yesterday, 10: 09
      NEW

      +10
      German submarines ceased to be a formidable weapon already in 1943, when the US and British Navy received the latest sonars, direction finders, long-range seaplanes
      Of course, for every tricky nut there is a threaded bolt.⁠⁠

      The Germans used unfinished Enigma cipher machines to communicate with their boats, which the Allies learned to successfully decipher and determine the places of future concentrations of wolf packs in the Atlantic and then send their "sonars, direction finders, seaplanes" there, now if the Germans, like Stirlitz, used the usual walkie-talkies
  23. +1
    April 9 2023 11: 00
    Quote: Alexey Lantukh
    In general, there are small-sized nuclear reactors that could possibly fit on small submarines.

    A nuclear reactor, with all the desire, cannot be made so quiet, so a boat with it will always be much noisier
  24. 0
    April 9 2023 11: 37
    Actually, VNSU, an auxiliary power unit for long patrols on a low-noise how. The main power plant still remains a diesel-electric power plant. So talking about stopping the development and construction of diesel-electric boats is complete nonsense. It is diesel-electric submarines with an additional auxiliary VNSU that are being built. Sea crossings of the boat pass under diesel engines, and the attack and withdrawal under batteries.
  25. +1
    April 10 2023 10: 45
    Quote: Amateur
    The largest number of submarines built (215 units) is the Soviet post-war project 613, which was actually the German project XXI improved and adapted to Soviet conditions.

    1. Project 613 is fundamentally different from the German 21 project.
    613 boat for the sea area approximately 1000 tons. It is optimized for small seas (Baltic, Black Sea) and for action close to the coast.
    German 21 projects are an ocean boat of 2000 tons and the main goal for them is transoceanic convoys far from the coast.
    2. Project 21 is a recognition of the defeat of German tactics in submarine warfare. A coordinated attack on the surface by large groups of boats and the destruction of convoys from merchant ships was already impossible and it was also impossible to achieve previous successes with the help of 21 projects.
    With this 21 project, a symbol of the failure of German military planning - huge funds and efforts were lost without any useful military result in the decisive period of the war. This is an example of how not to do it. A much better beater will focus all efforts on the 23rd project and on the small Seehund boats. If the Germans built boats like the Soviet project 613, and it beat much better in 1944-45.
  26. +1
    April 10 2023 13: 42
    There is no need to assume that German shipbuilders always follow the right path. The Japanese Navy abandoned VNEU (dv. Stirling) in favor of lithium-ion batteries. The use of the latter is reincarnation for diesel-electric submarines. It is possible that domestic "nelsons" were frightened by accidents with LIAB at our experimental facilities and "grabbing" the German experience, they "give birth in agony to a stone flower" with the long-suffering "Lada". And it’s worth taking a closer look at the experience of the samurai, ordering and demanding that enterprises produce relatively safe lithium-ion batteries and start equipping the already serial 677pr with them. taking into account changes in the ballast or an increase in the weight of the AB assembly elements. And then it will be too early to bury the time-tested diesel-electric submarines.
  27. -1
    April 10 2023 20: 00
    The age of diesel-electric submarines is clearly coming to an end.


    To be happy for technical progress is, of course, good. Only life shows that being categorical in this matter is a thankless task.
    Submarines with VNEU will certainly occupy their niche in accordance with the tasks assigned to them. But diesel-electric submarines in their niche will be in demand for a long time.
    It's like recognizing the superiority of firearms over bows and arrows and saying that "the age of edged weapons has come to an end."
    And the fact that a well-known developer and manufacturer announced the end of production ... Well, so, they "at Hitler's headquarters" announced a lot of things. Refusal of coal thermal power plants, for example. Full transition to renewable energy. Progress is. "Morally obsolete." And then like, "Oh!"
  28. 0
    April 10 2023 20: 04
    Quote: sergej_84
    so in those days different types of fuel were used for diesel engines - from oil to lighting gas

    So it is now too. On what only diesel or diesel. smile
  29. 0
    April 12 2023 08: 03
    within an hour, she sank three British armored cruisers, the Aboukir, Hog and Cressy.


    So the cruisers were not light armored, but heavy, armored ..
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