The first or last destroyer of modern Russia

64
The first or last destroyer of modern Russia


Modernization


The large anti-submarine ship of project 11551 "Admiral Chabanenko" was built for almost ten years (laid down on February 28.02.1989, 14.12.1992; launched on December 28.01.1999, XNUMX; commissioned on January XNUMX, XNUMX), which has become almost the norm for modern Russia during the construction ships of the first rank. Before commissioning, he managed to change the tail number twice, and the Almighty saved him from renaming, which historically sinned the Soviet and, by heritage, the Russian fleet.



Since 2014, the ship has officially embarked on a major overhaul and modernization, skipping in its biography the Syrian campaign of the ships of the Northern fleet, and now the tense moment of the sluggish NWO in Ukraine. Both then and now, the country really needs ships of the first rank not so much as flag demonstrators, but as real combat units of the fleet in the far sea zone, which cannot be ignored.


From vague and conflicting information for nine years of inactivity, it is difficult to understand the real goals of modernization. In 2016, it was planned to: replace the MR-760 Fregat-MA general detection radar with a more modern version of the 5P-30N Fregat-N radar; change the double-barreled 130-mm gun mount AK-130 to a lighter and more modern single-barreled 130-mm gun mount A-192; dismantle launchers for eight Moskit anti-ship missiles, followed by replacement with launchers for 16 Uran anti-ship missiles. The highlight of the modernization and PR program was the insertion of two UVP 3S14 for the range of modern missile weapons.

Apparently, depending on the timing of the modernization of the ship as a whole and the plans for the adoption of the Pantsir-M air defense missile system, the question of replacing the Kortik-M air defense missile system remained open. Probably, in the original version, in terms of balanced armament and driving performance, the Admiral Chabanenko was the best BOD or even a universal destroyer. Such an indistinct, if not to say, mediocre modernization, both in terms of content and timing, will really turn the ship into a second-class frigate. According to two UVP, it will be equal to the frigates of two admiral series and even two types of RTOs. With anti-ship missiles "Uranus" - the fall is even deeper - to the level of the modernized Soviet RTOs pr. 1234.

One can understand the replacement of the obsolete 6 P-120 missiles with 16 modern and long-range Kh-35s on forty-year-old ships seven times smaller than the destroyer. But to exchange eight heavy supersonic "Mosquitoes" for subsonic "Uranus" for a destroyer?! Initially, the rivals were aircraft carriers, cruisers and destroyers - now we are disqualifying a ship of the first rank to fight corvettes and boats. It is the “anti-corvette” that is considered the X-35 anti-ship missile. It can also be successfully used from two helicopters on the ship under discussion.

And what meaning does the castling of 130-mm artillery mounts carry on a ship that has 10-15 years left to serve? In addition to the notorious cut of the budget and the hypothetical struggle with the growth of the standard displacement of the ship, this does not give an increase in combat capabilities, but spare parts for the AK-130 will be enough until the end of the service from the destroyers written off for scrap, Project 956.

The replacement of the surveillance radar looks about the same, it is unlikely that a breakthrough in tactical terms is expected, but there is hope for an improvement in operational performance. The new element base makes it possible to reduce weight and size characteristics, increase the time between failures, reduce power consumption and, possibly, reduce maintenance personnel. Agree, for a destroyer, and even more so a frigate of the twenty-first century, a crew of four hundred people will look inadequate.


Necessary


Replacement of two ZRAK "Kortik-M" with two ZRAK "Pantsir-M". At present, when the Pantsir-M anti-aircraft missile and artillery system has been adopted by the fleet and is being introduced into modern ships already at the design stage, it becomes a necessary measure in the modernization process to introduce it onto ships, the service life of which will be significantly extended. For clarity of justification, let's make a comparison with the latest frigate.


What can oppose a salvo of eight anti-ship missiles directed at the side of the frigate pr. 22350? We bend our fingers, the ability of the Polyment-Redut air defense system to aim two missiles at four targets, possibly fire two more targets from a 130-mm gun mount, two more targets will remain on the conscience of the calculation of the Broadsword ZAK. If attacking anti-ship missiles are detected at a distance of about 30 kilometers, the outcome of the clash will be decided in two minutes. In an ideal situation, when all the mentioned anti-aircraft weapons and their controls are turned on, combat-ready, the targets are correctly distributed and there are no deliberate interference, there is still hope for a successful repulse of the raid.

I will add, probably, the air defense system will be able to fire even more targets, because the 9M100 anti-aircraft guided missile needs correction only before capturing the IR seeker of the designated target, then guidance is performed regardless of the complex, and the latter may have time to fire a couple more targets. Just keep in mind that the range of guaranteed destruction of the 9M100 is only 15 kilometers, and to destroy the target at this range, the start button must be pressed upon detection.

Now let's calculate the capabilities of the BOD pr. 11551 with the Pantsir-M SAM. By the way, after installation on the ship, the specified complex becomes the “main caliber” of the ship’s air defense in terms of range. Four targets for hitting with ZRAK missiles at a range of up to 20 kilometers, adding four targets each with two modules of the Kinzhal air defense system at a distance of up to 16 kilometers, do not forget a 130-mm double-barreled shotgun and finishing the broken missiles with ZRAK metal cutters. Such firepower at close range inspires respect and confidence.

To the advantages of the BOD over the latest frigate, it is worth adding a slightly higher height of the antenna posts of both detection and destruction means, which gives an increase in the detection range of low-altitude targets. In addition, twice the weight of the BOD compared to the frigate will be a more stable platform for sniping. The same almost threefold advantage will be retained by the BOD when attacking from the stern corners, and only from the bow can the parity level be given to the frigate, taking into account the technological perfection of modern equipment.


Replacement of launchers and anti-ship missiles "Moskit" with UVP UKSK 3S14 with an expanded range of missile weapons. Based on the exclusively naive desire of the author to obtain maximum strike power from the modernization of the ship, as shown in the figure, it is proposed to install six vertical launchers 3S14 of the universal ship firing complex. Based on the overall dimensions of the UVP and the actual volumes of the ship in the intended place of their installation, theoretically 12 UVP would also fit. But we must understand that before the modernization this volume was not reserved by the project, and it was not empty on the ship until recently. The functionality of the occupied premises will have to be redistributed throughout the ship, cut, compacted, etc., etc. On the Marshal Shaposhnikov frigate, in order to install two UVPs, one turret gun had to be abandoned.

The expansion of the above-deck superstructure due to the launchers for the Mosquitoes should help smooth out the contradictions between the possible and the desired. But even if you manage to insert 2-3 UVP, and preferably 4-5, then in any case 16 or more Onyxes or Zircons will be more than an adequate replacement for eight supersonic Mosquitoes. The newly acquired ability to use from the ship both anti-submarine missiles and medium-range cruise missiles for strikes against ground targets, and possibly the SD missile defense system, gives a real chance to keep the Admiral Chabanenko classification in the cohort of universal destroyers or even present it as a destroyer leader.

Necessary


It would seem that the two necessary measures presented above to modernize an already age ship could be limited. It turns out a decent destroyer for a reasonable price with a non-ephemeral increase in combat capabilities. But there is no limit to perfection, and nine years of downtime for this is unreasonably long.

Change the location of the antenna posts of the multifunctional radar ship complex "Mineral-M" and the artillery fire control system "Lev-218". The entire evolution of naval artillery at the height of the perfection of specific classes of gun systems confirmed the invariable postulate that achieving maximum pointing accuracy when firing artillery is achieved due to the closest possible convergence of the barrel line with the aiming line. So it was during the period of domination of the sea of ​​battleships, when their own optical rangefinders were placed in the monstrous towers of the main caliber, and so it remains in our time when artillery is fighting against anti-ship missiles and aviation, when the greatest efficiency of fire is achieved by combining a gun and a guidance locator on a single platform (American "Volcano-Phalanx"; Chinese "Type 1130").

On our ship, the axes of rotation of the guidance radar and the gun turret, which are located in the longitudinal plane, are only horizontally separated by a distance of more than thirty meters. The vertical spacing is close to fifteen meters. It is worth recalling that the radius of guaranteed destruction by an anti-aircraft 130-mm 3S-44R projectile of an anti-ship missile target is only 8 meters and reaches 15 meters for an aircraft.

Thus, the most effective fire can be fired directly at the ship's course and, if possible, direct the target's flight directly at it. The more the target deviates to the right or to the left of the ship's course, the more significant the aiming errors will increase. The transfer of the antenna post of the dual-band radar MR-184 to the roof of the wheelhouse will bring it closer to the control object by a total of at least 13 meters (11 meters horizontally and 7 meters vertically), which will positively affect the accuracy of pointing the main caliber artillery gun.

Reducing the height of the post will also reduce the effect of rolling on the stability of the equipment. At the new location, the electrical center of the radar antenna will be located at a level of 18 meters from the surface of the water. In this case, anti-ship missiles flying at a height of 9 meters will be detected at a distance of almost 30 kilometers.

Considering that the maximum firing range of the AK-130 gun mount is 23 kilometers, and the effective range for air targets is unlikely to exceed 12 km (because a projectile with an initial speed of 850 m / s will reach there in about 15 seconds), such a movement of the antenna post will have practically no effect on the information capabilities of the complex as a whole. On the other hand, an increase in the height of the antenna post KRS-27 "Mineral-M" will have a positive effect on its work.

Re-equipment of the Kinzhal air defense system. The system was put into service in 1986 and proved to be excellent on BODs and destroyers. The land analogue of the complex has successfully passed at least one full-fledged modernization and no less successfully confirms the real combat capabilities in the NVO in Ukraine.

Maybe I missed something, but judging by the appearance of the air defense systems on the ship and the presence of mirror-type antenna systems on them, the air defense system has not been upgraded and, as a conclusion, it fully satisfies the needs of the fleet. Another would argue began, but I agree. At the same time, I dare to propose a new generation of missiles for adaptation to vertical launch launchers.


No one persuades the 9M330-9M331 family of missiles to be disposed of, it is proposed to introduce their more advanced radio command version 9M338 into the launcher and into the complex as a whole and expand and supplement the combat capabilities of the complex by interfacing with the 9M100E missile from the Poliment Redut air defense system, additionally equipped with an infrared head homing. Specialists can compare three missiles according to the criteria of cost, efficiency, and application features. Such adaptation will increase the number of simultaneously fired targets.

Possible


Long arm. The main drawback of the project 11551 ship as a universal destroyer was initially considered the absence of a medium-range anti-aircraft missile system. From the moment the ship was put into repair and modernization, the Navy has already adopted universal vertical launchers UKSK 3S14, medium-range anti-aircraft missiles with an active radar seeker 9M96, and the Polyment-Redut complex has been introduced. Now all these components are already being installed on serial frigates.

Over the past years, was it possible to try to use the dual-band radar of the MP-184 artillery fire control system to correct the flight of the 9M96 missile under the control of the inertial system until active homing is turned on?

It goes without saying that it makes no sense to try to install a full-fledged Polyment-Redut air defense system on an old ship. But if there is a theoretical possibility to organize the control of at least one or two SD SAMs even for a single air target within the range of these missiles using the available reconnaissance and control equipment on the ship, one should not carelessly miss such a chance. Practically, launchers and missiles can be placed on the ship.

Can't be left to change. It is difficult to find reliable and objective information about radars on the World Wide Web. Censorship, military secrecy, competition, unscrupulous advertising are important and justifying factors for their appearance. About the same hard to deal with the engines for ships. Therefore, I apologize in advance to specialists and professionals for possible errors in the information flow of consciousness in the following paragraphs. For example, here is a table that has become widespread after the speech of the President of the Russian Federation on import substitution.


And information from the official website of the manufacturer.


The spread in the power of the units is within 30 percent, depending on what is taken as a basis: horsepower or megawatts ... I don’t know about you, but I am for not only political censorship, but also technical!

I apologize for the lyrical digression, but plans have been made public to build Project 22350M ships in the near future, which should have a completely domestic power plant from two gas turbine sustainer engines M70FRU and two afterburner gas turbine engines M90FR. Wikipedia has already announced the displacement and dimensions of future frigates, well, very similar to the dimensions of the BOD pr. 11551. But enemy informants have not yet figured out what scheme the units will work on: COGAG or COGOG? But could we test a promising power plant on a comparable ship even before they were laid down?


Evil tongues claim that the new generation of Russian gas turbine engines was not created from scratch and not from scratch, but is a further development of their Ukrainian predecessors. But after all nobody and does not object. Judging by the power, the marching DO90 and M70FRU are almost identical. The difference in dimensions indicated in the table is attributed to a different origin and approach to the principles of measurements from various sources. Otherwise, it would not make sense to measure efficiency in units of percentages in the "blue" table.

Thus, I propose to consider these engines as interchangeable and consider the possibility of replacing Ukrainian-made DO90 (UGT15000) with a resource developed over thirty years with fresh modern Russian M70FRU.

The author is wary of suggesting, with the same incompetent impudence, the replacement of afterburning Ukrainian DT59 (UGT16000) with the obviously more powerful latest Russian M90FR, but recommends it.

Firstly, an increase in power from 20 to 24 percent of the original version can kill gearboxes that are not designed for such a load already at the stage of full-fledged tests without concessions and artificial restrictions. Although, on the other hand, a multiple margin of safety was laid in the products created in the Union. History upgrades and repairs of ships with the replacement of engines with more powerful ones, only literal changes were made to the name of the main turbo-gear units, silent about any replacements or reconstructions of their gearboxes. Here is an uncut quote from one competent person:

“GTE DE59 were reduced to GTA MZ, which were equipped with the military-industrial complex pr. 61 in the process of their construction. During the medium repair on these ships, GTA M 3 was replaced by GTA M ZN.1 with GTD DN59. The DE59 engines were also equipped with the VPK pr. 1134B, but they were reduced to the GTA M 5. During the medium repair, these GTAs were replaced by the GTA M 5N.1 with the DN59 gas turbine engine. At the military-industrial complex, pr. 1155, GTA M 9 was installed, each of which included an afterburner gas turbine engine DT59 and a marching gas turbine engine DS71. TFR pr. 1135 during the construction process was equipped with GTA M 7. This GTA includes an afterburner gas turbine engine DK59 and a marching gas turbine engine M-62 with a capacity of 9 liters. With. During the medium repair, these GTAs were replaced by GTA M 000N.7 with GTEs, respectively, DT1 and DS59.

Based on the analogies given in it, the GTA M9 mentioned in it on the BOD pr. 1155 differs from the GTA M9B on the BOD pr. 11551 only by the sustainer engine of increased power DO90. The increase was, according to various sources, at least 40 percent.

Secondly, the actual overall dimensions of the M90FR gas turbine engine, which remain unknown, judging by the lower weight, should not significantly exceed the confirmed dimensions of the DT59 gas turbine engine. Consequently, there is no material reason for not placing new engines in the ship's engine room.

And again, for the sake of objectivity of reasoning and indisputability of conclusions, I must spoil the blissful picture with doubts from the lack of reliable information about the speed of all the gas turbine engines under consideration. Based on the table, a pair of old and new marching engines, despite their related origin and equal power, simply become non-interchangeable on an existing gearbox due to a completely incompatible speed. For a pair of afterburners, these characteristics are closer to each other, which may be the result of an increase in power and efficiency of the more modern M90FR model, which is embodied in an increase in rotational speed.

Based on the information proposed in the article for consideration, I will make two disappointing conclusions.

BOD "Admiral Chabanenko" will be under repair for at least ten years.

As a result of measures to repair and modernize the ship, the main power plant will remain in its original form.

In the context of import substitution and NVO in Ukraine, the epic with a power plant for larger frigates, pr. 22350M, awaits us no less exciting than with their predecessors. But the fact of the successful completion of the long-range voyage of the frigate "Admiral of the Fleet Kasatonov" is encouraging, which means that we will be able to have a new power plant.

PS


Finally, the warship will get rid of the parade-masquerade 45-mm 21KM salute guns. In honor of the great victory, it’s not a sin to smack from the main caliber guns. A dozen sailors in full dress with traditional SKS with shiny bayonets can see off a worthy person on their last journey or meet a distinguished guest.


In order not to end in a minor, let's recall the biography of a worthy person, whose name the ship bears.

Biography of A. T. Chabanenko


Andrey Trofimovich Chabanenko was born on October 30, 1909 in the family of a worker in the city of Verkhnedneprovsk. Ukrainian. In 1927 he entered the M. V. Frunze Naval School. Since 1931 he was a watchman, navigator, submarine miner on the Black Sea. In 1932 he graduated from the training squad of scuba diving. S. M. Kirov, was appointed senior assistant to the commander of a submarine of the Black Sea Naval Forces. In 1933, Chabanenko became a submarine commander in the Pacific Fleet. In 1938 he was appointed commander of a submarine battalion.

During the Great Patriotic War, Chabanenko commanded a brigade of submarines of the Pacific Fleet, which were in a state of constant combat readiness. Participated in the Sakhalin offensive operation, landing troops at the port of Maoka.

In 1946, Andrei Trofimovich Chabanenko graduated from academic courses at the Naval Academy, having received the post of commander of the Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk naval base upon completion of training. In 1948–1950 was a student of the naval faculty of the Military Academy of the General Staff. Since 1950, in the Baltic, commander of the Porkkala-Udd naval base, chief of staff of the 8th Navy. Since 1951, Vice Admiral. In April 1952 he was appointed commander of the Northern Fleet, later A. T. Chabanenko wrote:

“Ten years in the Northern Fleet were the most intense and bright ...
It was possible to achieve the creation of a powerful construction organization, without which it was impossible to overcome the backlog in the basing device. He completed the development of tactics for submarines in strike-search and reconnaissance curtains and practically worked out in exercises.

Under his leadership, the first polar and long-range trips of submarines were made. On July 17, 1962, the nuclear submarine "Leninsky Komsomol", having made a transition under the ice of the Arctic, surfaced in the region of the North Pole. Tasks of this level of complexity were solved for the first time in the history of the world fleet. And in September 1960, the world's first launch of a ballistic missile from a submerged position took place, from the side of the B-67 submarine.

In June 1962, Andrei Trofimovich was appointed Assistant Chief of the General Staff of the USSR Armed Forces for the Navy. In May 1972 he was sent as a consultant professor to the Academy of the General Staff, and in November 1976 he retired. Andrei Trofimovich Chabanenko died on December 19, 1986.
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  1. +11
    28 March 2023 06: 00
    BOD "Admiral Chabanenko" will be under repair for at least ten years.

    Ten years from bookmarking to commissioning. Clean service - about 15 years. Now ten years of repair with extensive modernization. It's all kind of pointless. For 10 years of standing in the plant, the military equipment provided for installation will fundamentally become obsolete. Project 1155 was initially "weak" in terms of armament. Skry pr. 1135M was not much inferior to him, although they had smaller dimensions and displacement. Maybe it makes sense not to invest in the old hull, but to make repairs to the extent that will ensure that the ship can safely serve as it is until ships of new modern projects enter service with the Navy? Indeed, the thought arises that the ship simply became the object of the "mastering" of money.
    1. +12
      28 March 2023 08: 23
      1135 did not lie close to the "Frigates" in hydroacoustics. In fact, only ships with the Polynomial could often count on the full range of the Blizzard / Bell. And, you can rest assured that the Frigate is the smallest ship on which the Polynomial was placed at all. The dimensions of its antenna are already close to absurdity, if it is not 1143 or 1144. Plus, the hangar for two helicopters did not leave any chance of providing a circular attack by the Hurricane. In short, we simply had nothing to arm the universal destroyer in the 80s. Chabanenko - consider this already the 90s.
  2. +1
    28 March 2023 06: 16
    it was not in vain that the strategists of the USSR Navy invented a specific qualification for BOD ships, and even universal ones. Dividing the destroyers of the Navy and BOD in the same ship rank into two specializations in the USSR was not from fat, but from a smart approach to seeing what forces had to be countered on the seas and oceans. A former BOD reclassified as a frigate, this will not make it possible to have either a full-fledged BOD or a full-fledged destroyer with modern weapons. Well, build new frigates and new destroyers, but also new BODs. And new TFRs with new weapons would be more formidable and more versatile units than today's corvettes.
    1. +10
      28 March 2023 07: 33
      Quote: north 2
      Dividing Navy and BOD destroyers in the same ship rank into two specializations in the USSR was not from fat, but from a smart approach to vision ...

      Yes, not from "smart vision", but from hopelessness, because to combine Polin, a hangar for helicopters and 2 130-mm in one building of moderate displacement. could not initially. Project 1155.1 appeared later and took a step forward in versatility, but again, the ship really lacked a zoned air defense system.

      Quote: north 2
      Well, build new frigates and new destroyers, but also new BODs.

      The term BOD is a tribute to the Khrushchev times. Now there is no logic to design / build BODs and destroyers. The destroyer - as a single rank 1 missile and artillery ship should be universal, and now it is possible to build just such. All weapon systems are available and worked out. However, it is premature to dream about destroyers, as long as the fleets do not have the required number of frigates and corvettes, multi-purpose nuclear submarines and secondary armaments.
      1. -4
        28 March 2023 08: 43
        under Khrushchev, the BOD, and then like ships of the second rank, were built only a couple of years. And this is not Khrushchev’s concept, but Gorshkov’s, according to which, after Khrushchev’s Navy, the BOD built the entire Brezhnev time, and completed after Brezhnev’s death and after Gorshkov retired, almost all BODs were laid down during Brezhnev’s lifetime and under the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy Gorshkov. Moreover, with the coming to power of Brezhnev, Gorshkov began building the BOD with ships of the first rank. Why did Gorshkov so appreciate and understand the need for the Navy in the BOD as anti-submarine ships of the first rank? Yes, because Gorshkov was a supporter of the ocean fleet, the submarine fleet, and trying to be in the "skin" of the enemy submarine fleet, he was looking for ways how this enemy submarine fleet would detect it under water and destroy it. That is why he paid so much attention to the construction and operation of the BOD, as surface ships of the first rank to fight the enemy submarine fleet.
        1. +3
          28 March 2023 12: 22
          Quote: north 2
          under Khrushchev, the BOD, and then like ships of the second rank, were built only a couple of years.

          Under Khrushchev, the classic BOD appeared - pr. 61.
          And the idea of ​​​​BOD for those times was justified. Then the range of SLBMs (the first "Polaris" with their 1000-1500 miles) was still not enough to cover the territory of the USSR "from the other side", and SSBNs had to approach areas where our fleet could somehow work on them.
          And then the BOD turned from a weapon for destroying enemy SSBNs into a means of protecting its own SSBNs.
      2. +3
        28 March 2023 11: 43
        Versatility is good up to a point. But then, it turns out that such a ship is worse in all respects, unlike those whom it was supposed to replace with its versatility. So, this issue must be approached carefully.
        1. +6
          28 March 2023 12: 49
          "The best is the enemy of the good" - it has long been said.
          Quote: TermNachTER
          it turns out that such a ship is worse in all respects

          Universal, by definition, cannot be worse in ALL parameters, because it is universal. A specialized ship will always be superior to a station wagon, but only in one, and inferior in everything else ... It’s not just that they came to the idea of ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXbuniversality - it’s cheaper, easier, mass production can be ensured, these ideas are well embodied by the Americans. The fleet is already prohibitively expensive, and the construction of specialized ships will make the recreation of a large fleet a utopia.

          Quote: TermNachTER
          So, this issue must be approached carefully.

          Can not argue. Versatility must be reasonable. TARK pr.1144 turned out to be universal in terms of many tasks to be solved, but became prohibitively huge and expensive, which ultimately predetermined too small serial production, the high cost of operation / modernization ...
    2. +3
      28 March 2023 10: 05
      Quote: north 2
      Dividing the destroyers of the Navy and BOD in the same ship rank into two specializations in the USSR was not from fat, but from a smart approach to seeing what forces had to be countered on the seas and oceans.

      laughing Cool, you veiled the inability of the Soviet military-industrial complex to create a full-fledged universal ship!
      It was impossible to reach the level of a foreign analogue (EM of the "Spruance" type - A.Sh.) in terms of the capabilities of the PLO due to the huge size of the new SJSC "Polynom" and the absence of any reserves on the ship itself, which were previously spent on powerful artillery weapons ( for fire support of the landing - A.Sh.) and the Uragan air defense system ... Given these circumstances, it was decided to create a system of two ships: a URO and air defense ship - pr. 956, and a specialized PLO ship ... - pr 1155. A clear disadvantage was that when one ship failed, the system completely lost its anti-ship or anti-submarine component.
      1. +1
        28 March 2023 12: 03
        optimal upgrade for BOD pr.1155.1:
        2 ZRPK Pantsir-M for 32 missiles = 64 missiles incl. TPK for 4 short-range missiles
        4 UKKS for 32 TPK: PLUR Answer, anti-ship missiles Zircon, Onyx, SLCM Caliber
        4 UKKS for 32 SAM SAM Redoubt
        2 PLC Package-NK for 8 MTT and AT
        Total: 96 missiles, 32 anti-ship missiles / PLUR / SLCM, 8 torpedoes = 136 missiles
        + 2 helicopters
        1. +2
          28 March 2023 13: 35
          Quote: Romario_Argo
          optimal modernization for BOD pr.1155.1

          I'm wildly sorry, but I'm not a shipbuilder and not a soothsayer hi
        2. 0
          30 March 2023 14: 25
          Quote: Romario_Argo
          optimal upgrade for BOD pr.1155.1:
          2 ZRPK Pantsir-M for 32 missiles = 64 missiles

          "Do we leave the daggers?
          Quote: Romario_Argo
          4 UKKS for 32 SAM SAM Redoubt

          It's clear, "Redoubt", but what about the RLC to it? "Polyment"? That is, a complete replacement of the radar and launchers of the air defense system.
          Quote: Romario_Argo
          4 UKKS for 32 TPK:

          Let's assume this will work.
          Quote: Romario_Argo
          2 PLC Package-NK for 8 MTT and AT

          The "Chabanenko" also has the "Waterfall" PLUR.
          Do we leave?
          I would leave.
          By the way, why did they forget about the X-35 anti-ship missiles? What didn't you like? There is a place for them, exactly 4 quadruple launchers stand up. 16 anti-ship missiles do not lie around on the road, and with two or four hits such can fill up a destroyer. And certainly a frigate or corvette.
          I don’t understand at all why there is talk about modernization options for the Chabanenko specifically ... According to the plans, the ship should be handed over to the customer this year. And the composition of its weapons after modernization is known:
          - 16 anti-ship missiles X-35 "Uranus"
          - Two UKKS for 16 UVP cells.
          - Two ZRPK "Pantsir-M".
          - "Daggers" apparently remain in place.
          - "PLUR" Waterfall "- too.
          - the avionics will be updated and will replace the radar.
          This modernization is close in terms of armament to the Shaposhnikov modernization. But the pair of BODs following them for modernization will be modernized according to a more advanced project, with the placement of four UKKS for 32 cells, 4 x 4 X-35 Uran anti-ship missiles and the possible installation of Shtil or Redut medium-range air defense systems ( according to the latest rumors like "Redoubt" ... then "Polynomial" is also possible.
          And "Chabanenko" will soon be tested ... or is already passing.
      2. -1
        28 March 2023 17: 15
        A clear disadvantage was that when one ship failed, the system completely lost its anti-ship or anti-submarine component.

        But, on the other hand, in the case of one universal ship, she would, in general, lose everything. Therefore, I would not consider the creation of a grouping of 2 special ships only as an unsuccessful decision, it also had its advantages. It is clear that due to the lost decade in the 90s, the modernization potential of this couple was not realized, and at the beginning of the 22350s, when this work could have begun, it would have taken a lot of time to restore production chains and technologies. It was, in fact, the time it took to create an industrial base, but it was more reasonable to use this base, of course, it was already to create ships at a new technological level, universal - the same XNUMX.

        1. +3
          28 March 2023 18: 12
          Quote: S. Nikolaev
          But, on the other hand, in the case of one universal ship, she would, in general, lose everything. Therefore, I would not consider the creation of a grouping of 2 special ships only as an unsuccessful decision, it also had its advantages

          Yes, there are no special advantages, forced measures. The shipbuilding industry was not able to build quickly and a lot of 10-12 kt. ships. If the place of seventeen 956s and twelve 1155s had been built by 20 universal destroyers of a larger displacement by 30-35%, there would be much more benefit for the Navy.
          1. -1
            28 March 2023 18: 43
            Yes, there are no special advantages

            Well, how about this:
            But, on the other hand, in the case of one universal ship, she would, in general, lose everything

            Okay, God bless him.
            And, here, about 20 universal ones, which would bring more benefits, one can argue. Well, firstly, the technological level available at that time did not allow to cram it into 8 thousand tons. the equipment and weapons (even the most ultra-modern) that could fit in a total of 15. And taking into account the modernization of the types of weapons already available on these projects (such as, for example, the same Shtil1 instead of Hurricane, the more advanced PLV 1155.1, unlike 1155, and in the already initially good RK - Dagger, Dagger, and the same Mosquito will always be found, what to refine by improving their performance characteristics, etc.), this pair turns into a very formidable force, whose strike capabilities and defense capabilities against any surface, underwater and air threats reach a qualitatively different level. In practice, it is unlikely that anyone could cope with such a pair on the high seas, and if a "loaf" is added to it, then this trinity can theoretically disable the AUG, and even stay alive and leave on their own.
            1. +2
              28 March 2023 19: 50
              Quote: S. Nikolaev
              Well, firstly, the technological level available at that time did not allow to cram it into 8 thousand tons. the equipment and weapons (even the most ultra-modern) that could fit in a total of 15.

              Not in 8, but in 9-10 kt., Taking as a basis a reduced copy of project 1164, where both Polino and a hangar for two helicopters, and the Fort air defense system with the Dagger air defense system, and 8-P.U. Mosquito, and one gun caliber 100-130 mm. But, I repeat, the USSR Shipyards were not ready for such a large-scale construction of such large ships. Atlantes were built for 6-10 years, instead of a reasonable 3-4 years.
              Quote: S. Nikolaev
              this pair turns into a very formidable force, whose strike capabilities and defense capabilities against any surface, underwater and air threats reach a qualitatively new level

              Of course, it was necessary to modernize existing ships, since there are simply no others and will not appear soon. It is a pity that the fate of the destroyers is so sad, they were disposed of 12-13 years after joining the fleet.
              Quote: S. Nikolaev
              In practice, it is unlikely that anyone could cope with such a pair on the high seas, and if a "loaf" is added to it, then this trinity can theoretically disable the AUG, and even stay alive and leave on their own.

              Well, now you've had enough. Even the upgraded 956 and 1155 against the AUG are still rather weak. We need several dozen supersonic long-range anti-ship missiles, we need long-range air defense systems (to create at least some threat to enemy aircraft, to intercept air-based anti-ship missiles), we need AWACS helicopters, we need at least two MAPLs, etc. ... In general, in order to guarantee to press the enemy’s AUG , you need to have your winked serious ship group.
              1. 0
                28 March 2023 20: 19
                Not at 8, but at 9-10 kt

                And yet, 15 is more than 10
                Of course, it was necessary to modernize existing ships, since there are simply no others and will not appear soon.

                Well, no, there already is. And there will be more. And as for modernization - well, what can I say, we had to do a lot of things wrong, and not only in the fleet, but, it’s also probably not worth worrying about the past time

                Well, now you've had enough

                If that's enough, then I don't think so. Here, of course, you have to count. In many ways - from the combat radius of aircraft with AUGs and their usual number of aircraft ready to take off to .. Yes, a lot more. Specialists are needed here.
                And yes, you missed the "loaf". -
                Even the upgraded 956 and 1155 against the AUG are still rather weak
              2. 0
                30 March 2023 20: 12
                Quote: FIR FIR
                Not in 8, but in 9-10 kt., Taking as a basis a reduced copy of project 1164, where both Polino and a hangar for two helicopters, and the Fort air defense system with the Dagger air defense system, and 8-P.U. Mosquito, and one gun caliber 100-130 mm.

                Well, for the purity of extrapolation, 1164 GAK does not have a "Polynomial" at all ... it didn’t even lie close. But in VI 10 - 12 Kt. much could be accommodated, incl. and Polynomial.
                The whole trouble is that our Motherland, the USSR, died before the plans for the modernization of the entire fleet of 1155 and 956 under the carriers of the KR "Granat" and "Onyx" could be realized. This process was supposed to start in the mid-90s during the mid-scheduled maintenance. 1155 should have received instead of the 2nd tower from 4 to ... 8th UKKS, SAM "Shtil" and PLUR "Waterfall", and instead of inclined launchers "Meteli" quadruple launchers "Mosquito" or "Onyx" (then work was still going on on inclined launchers for the "Onyx").
                956 should also be upgraded with a sharp increase in strike capabilities. Instead of the aft turret installation, the 4th UKKS (32 cells) should have stood up, instead of the Mosquitoes, the Onyxes, instead of the beam launchers of the Calm VPU and longer-range missiles.
                After such modernization, 1155 became full-fledged destroyers with powerful anti-submarine weapons and great strike capabilities. An absolutely self-sufficient ship both for autonomous navigation and for strengthening the AUG and KUG.
                956 became (and was originally planned as such) escort ships to escort landing forces and enhance the strike capabilities of the AUG and KUG.
                In the future, it was planned to build full-fledged destroyers based on Project 1155 with the 8th UKKS (for 64 UVP cells), the Fort air defense system, the Vodopad PLUR, 2 helicopters and the Polynomial. In VI, about 10 tons. It did not grow together.
                Quote: FIR FIR
                need AWACS helicopters

                For good, modern PLO helicopters have a side-looking radar capable of illuminating not only the surface, but also the air situation at a distance of up to 200+ km. for big targets. Why not an AWACS helicopter?
                Quote: FIR FIR
                need at least two MAPL

                If we talk about the modernized 1155 or 956, then a volley of even one such ship would be enough for the AUG - 32 KR in 4 UKKS + 8 Onyx or Mosquito anti-ship missiles. 40 RCC, this is very serious. Especially if it's 40 Onyxes.
                Such a modernization did not happen to our not the worst ships, which would still remain in service if Fate had not "joked" with them so cruelly.
        2. +5
          29 March 2023 09: 58
          Quote: S. Nikolaev
          But, on the other hand, in the case of one universal ship, she would, in general, lose everything.

          what However! And so ... to search for enemy nuclear submarines, we send a BOD and an air defense ship in the face of a destroyer. As a result of counteraction by enemy missiles and aircraft, we are losing BODs ... how long will the destroyer live in the area of ​​\u6350b\u14bthe enemy nuclear submarine? Option two ... we are losing the destroyer, what is the fate of the BOD? But it's still flowers! BOD - cruising range 3920 miles at 18 knots, destroyer - 4 miles at XNUMX knots .... we have an economic stroke difference of XNUMX knots and a stroke difference without refueling! The difference in cruising range can be ignored, because the refueling of the ships will be equal to the emptying of the destroyer's tanks. Those. because of the destroyer, the BOD will be bunkered instead of once, twice ... and with excessive fuel consumption. What does it mean? And this means that in the area of ​​​​operation of the BOD and the destroyer there should also be a detachment of ships as part of the tanker and its cover, and the tanker is forced to carry two types of fuel in its tanks! And that we have not two ships, but at least six, under the gun of the enemy!
          Quote: S. Nikolaev
          It is clear that due to the lost decade in the 90s

          The problem is different, tandem 956-1155, this is our belated response to Chamber .... American Spruance. Everything would be fine, but in 1986 the Americans put into operation the cruiser URO Bunker Hill, which made a revolution in military shipbuilding, Bunker Hill put an end to our tandem, but not Admiral of the Fleet Chernavin, not Marshal Sokolov did not even raise an eyebrow at this news, therefore, the Soviet military-industrial complex continued to produce an outdated tandem!
          1. +1
            29 March 2023 18: 25
            I don’t really understand something, but what, the Ticonderoga do not need tankers for refueling, or do they need it, but less often (they go alone on the seas, without warrants and partners)? Or as a resultcounteracting missiles and enemy aircraft"Only the BOD and Sarychi fail? And the fact that his PLV is more perfect, supposedly (according to the booklet), is how no one compared in battle.
            1. +2
              April 3 2023 07: 18
              Quote: S. Nikolaev
              Ticonderoga do not need tankers for refueling, or they do, but less often

              what Where did I compare the cruising range between Tiki and Frigate + Buzzards?
              Quote: S. Nikolaev
              And the fact that his PLV is more perfect,

              The problem is UVP MK 41 !!!!!
              1. 0
                April 12 2023 18: 32
                Where did I compare the cruising range between Tiki and Frigate + Buzzards?

                So I didn't compare. smile I just asked you what and what you wanted to explain in relation to the combat capabilities of ships with such detailed descriptions of who and how should be bunkered there.
                And by virtue of what such advantages, MK41 put an end to it on the tandem.
          2. 0
            30 March 2023 21: 07
            Quote: Serg65
            Everything would be fine, but in 1986 the Americans put into operation the cruiser URO Bunker Hill, which made a revolution in military shipbuilding, Bunker Hill put an end to our tandem, but not Admiral of the Fleet Chernavin, not Marshal Sokolov did not even raise an eyebrow at this news, therefore, the Soviet military-industrial complex continued to produce an outdated tandem!

            You should not consider the Soviet commanders in chief and ministers of defense as fools, in the USSR at that time work was underway on the UVP for the Granat missile launcher (the ancestor of the Caliber with nuclear warheads) and the promising Onyx. It was planned to install UKKS with such missiles on pr. 1155 and 956 after their modernization during the planned medium repair. It was planned to install at least 4 UKKS (32 UVP cells), and to replace the inclined launchers for the "Metel" and "Mosquito" with inclined launchers for the "Onyx" (tests of such a launcher were carried out on RTOs). It was planned to change the single-beam launcher for the Shtil air defense system on project 956 to the UVP for the Shtil air defense system. And at 1155, it was planned to replace part of the Kinzhal launcher with a UVP for Shtil missiles.
            From the beginning to the middle of the 90s, it was planned to lay destroyers on the basis of Project 1155 of the larger VI (up to 10 tons). The composition of weapons:
            - 8 UKKS (64 UVP cells for the Granat CR and Onyx anti-ship missiles),
            - 2 x 4 inclined launchers for anti-ship missiles "Onyx" or 4 x 4 inclined launchers for anti-ship missiles X-35,
            - PLUR "Waterfall" with launch through TA,
            - SAM "Fort",
            - 2 helicopters,
            - SJSC "Polynom".
            Such a destroyer would be a full-fledged counterweight to the "Tiks" and "Burks", and would surpass them in terms of the quality of weapons (anti-ship missiles).
            It was then - at the end of the 80s, it was decided not to lay down destroyers pr. 956 anymore, but during the 90s to modernize all previously built 956 and 1155.
            Thus, by the end of the 90s, the USSR would have reached parity in the surface forces of the Navy with the USA, while maintaining an advantage in the submarine forces of the Navy. By the beginning of the 00s, the USSR would have had up to ten AUGs in service ("Krechety" had to be modernized and re-equipped with the Yak-41, "Kuznetsov" and "Varyag" were transitional type AB + four nuclear "Ulyanovsk"), 4 nuclear cruisers of the Orlan type, 10 cruisers of the Atlant project, and up to fifty new and modernized destroyers. These are the ships of the ocean zone. Plus, a fairly large number of SSGNs of several projects - the PLA class, which the United States did not have at all.
            Let me remind you that at the time of 1988 there were 950 SLBMs on Soviet submarines. smile Against 600 SLBMs on US submarines.
            By the way, it was planned to convert part of the Soviet SSBNs with obsolete SLBMs into SSGNs - carriers of the Granat and Onyx missile launchers in launch cups.
            And then the party elite betrayed its people and capitulated to the exhausted enemy.
            If these bastards had not done this then, by the mid-90s the United States and the countries of Western Europe would have fallen into a systemic financial, economic and social Crisis of such crushing power ... about the same into which they are plunging now.
            ... Such pygmies in power, the Great Country then got ...
            Now the whole world would speak Russian.
            With joy .
            1. 0
              31 March 2023 05: 07
              Now the whole world would speak Russian.

              In fairness, it must be said that, first of all, for some time now, speaking Russian, living in our big country has ceased to be some kind of special value for us. After all, all the achievements of civilization - Mercedes, Sony and democracy were there, over the hill.
              Apparently, therefore, "Bunker Hill" should be mentioned twice (in one short paragraph) and pronounced aspirated
            2. +2
              April 3 2023 09: 39
              Quote: bayard
              You should not consider the Soviet commanders in chief and ministers of defense as fools

              I will give you a bunch of examples about the stupidity, and even wrecking of the commanders in chief and defense ministers!
              Quote: bayard
              in the USSR at that time work was underway on UVP for the KR "Granat"

              I am aware that they were walking ..... and they would have been walking for a long time, but there was no time!
              Quote: bayard
              It was planned to install UKKS with such missiles on pr. 1155 and 956 after their modernization during the planned medium repair.

              The first sample of Caliber was put on public display in 1993, by this time the fleet had received 17 Sarichs and 13 Frigates and that 30 ships! How much do you think the Soviet military-industrial complex could theoretically modernize these ships after the ZM-54 was put into service?
              Quote: bayard
              From the beginning to the middle of the 90s, it was planned to lay destroyers on the basis of Project 1155 of the larger VI

              Given that, work on the creation of the 1155.1 project began in 1982, i.e. two years after the entry into service of Udaly, the question arises .... why then was it necessary to fence the garden with the start of construction of the 1155 project? In addition, three years before Udaly entered the fleet, the BOD with UVP was already in service, the BOD pr. courtier, that's understandable. The fact that Ustinov was the main lobbyist of the military-industrial complex and a loyal ally of the enemy of the people Andropov is also understandable, but where did the Military Department of the CPSU Central Committee look?
              Quote: bayard
              Thus, by the end of the 90s, the USSR would have reached parity in the surface forces of the Fleet with the USA

              laughing You are now writing this nonsense, who are you trying to convince? By 1990, 75% of the surface ships of the USSR Navy were not just obsolete, but OLD!!! Ships that have the ability to fight the enemy on equal terms were 50 pennants ... 50 pennants for 4 fleets !!! In 1985, the first Burke was laid, what parity are you talking about in the 90s ???
  3. +1
    28 March 2023 06: 25
    Designed on paper, on drawing boards. There are no electronic and computer weapon control systems yet in sight. Units, ship machines and mechanisms are controlled manually. To make it modern, with the replacement of the main and auxiliary engines, is twice as expensive as building a new one of the same displacement. The actual question is whether "Chabanenko" will be able to fight off the tomahawks, taking into account the modernized weapons that will be put on it? Will he repeat the fate of “Moscow”? Can he cover with his air defense a squadron, for example, corvettes? or fight a group of Japanese diesel submarines? Experts will add a bunch more questions. soldier
    1. +7
      28 March 2023 07: 48
      Designed on paper, on drawing boards. There are no electronic and computer weapon control systems yet in sight

      I mean, there are no electronic weapon control systems ??? And why are all the antenna posts listed by the author - for the sake of beauty or for business? For your information - the first Soviet combat information system (CICS) appeared back in the 50s. of the last century and before the adoption of the BOD pr. 1155 in the 80s. our engineers in this field have come a long way in evolution. Therefore, it is fundamentally wrong to assume that weapons on Soviet-built ships are used almost in manual mode. The level of automation and electronic equipment on the BOD pr. 1155 is quite "at the level" of all world analogues of that time and is largely sufficient to fulfill the tasks assigned to the crew even today.

      In general, it is not necessary to disdain everything that is done with a pencil and a drawing board. The Royal Unions were also not drawn in AutoCAD, but this does not prevent them from being launched into space to this day, and it cannot be said that at the time they appeared there was not a trace of electronics or automation in them. Yes, the element base was on lamps, and not on transistors, and the speed of computational operations was lower than now, but electronics was still actively used and was present almost everywhere. This is especially true for the Navy, where it was easier to place all this "wealth" than on a tank, although over time, fire control systems also appeared on tanks that calculate, taking into account weather conditions, the distance to the enemy, etc., which greatly simplified the work gunner and increased firing efficiency. And all this, again, was originally designed by hand and on paper.
      The actual question is whether "Chabanenko" will be able to fight off the tomahawks, taking into account the modernized weapons that will be put on it? Will he repeat the fate of “Moscow”? Can he cover with his air defense a squadron, for example, corvettes?

      Firstly, the anti-ship variation of the Tomahawk has not been produced for a long time, therefore, air-to-surface missiles launched by combat fighters, or the same notorious Harpoons, are much more dangerous for our Navy. Secondly, it is not correct to compare the anti-submarine, which was created primarily for the purposes of anti-aircraft defense, and the strike cruiser, whose tasks included, among other things, the creation of layered air defense. We won’t discuss now why Moscow’s air defense was unable to protect the ship - this is a topic for separate speculation, we just note that Moscow had everything necessary not only to not only survive itself, but also provide air cover for other ships. In Chabonenko, all air defense systems are reduced to short-range weapons capable of providing only the minimum possible protection of the BOD itself, there is no question of any cover for other ships or formations. On a good note, destroyers of project 956, which were carriers of the Shtil air defense system - medium-range air defense, which is a seared version of the land-based Buk air defense system, should have covered him himself. It was the use of a tandem of the destroyer pr.956 and BOD pr.1155 that was considered by the leadership of the USSR Navy as the only true one. Therefore, it is at least unnecessary to demand from the anti-submarine that remained in splendid isolation, after the dashing 90s destroyers pr. strike capabilities, and not air defense, which, as it was short-range air defense, remained so. Qualitatively, of course, after replacing the Daggers with the Shell, her capabilities will improve, but not so much as to move to another weight category. You can't jump above your head...

      As for Japanese submarines, how is the Polynomial GAK installed on the BOD pr. 1155, in search mode, capable of causing active bloodletting from the ears of acousticians, regardless of race, gender and skin color. Extremely powerful thing, with this you will not spoil
      1. -3
        28 March 2023 14: 04
        That time has passed, the ship of the 70-80s, like the "Moscow" is all scrap, you need to quickly, in a short time to build modern ships, submarines. soldier
        1. +3
          28 March 2023 18: 17
          Quote: V.
          a ship of the 70-80s, like the "Moscow", everything is junk

          And what will remain???
          Quote: V.
          you need to quickly, in a short time to build modern ships, submarines

          It is unrealistic to saturate the fleet with modern ships in a short time / quickly, since it is very difficult, very long and very expensive. Even rich American admirals think how not to decommission cruisers for longer, there is nothing to replace them ................
      2. +5
        28 March 2023 15: 36
        Quote: Dante
        Firstly, the anti-ship variation of the Tomahawk has not been produced for a long time, therefore, air-to-surface missiles launched by combat fighters, or the same notorious Harpoons, are much more dangerous for our Navy.

        The "axe" has an heir - LRASM. So far, in the aviation version, but tests from UVP were also carried out.
        Quote: Dante
        Secondly, it is not correct to compare the anti-submarine, which was created primarily for the purposes of anti-aircraft defense, and the strike cruiser, whose tasks included, among other things, the creation of layered air defense.

        Not layered air defense, but only a distant line of air defense formations. 1164 is a budget "long arm" against ships and aircraft. The near zone was supposed to be held by other ships of the formation - in the near zone, the Moskva had only the old Osa-M and ZAK. Because the carrier ship of all layered air defense systems is inflated to the size of 1144.
        Quote: Dante
        On a good note, destroyers of project 956, which were carriers of the Shtil air defense system - medium-range air defense, which is a seared version of the land-based Buk air defense system, should have covered him himself.

        Taking into account the ship composition of the Black Sea Fleet, 1164 were supposed to cover 11356. And even better - the duty link of "Sushki". smile
    2. 0
      28 March 2023 11: 00
      Quote: V.
      There are no electronic and computer weapon control systems yet in sight. Units, ship machines and mechanisms are controlled manually

      recourse
      BIUS "Lumberjack-55"?
      The first domestic automatic control systems (ACS) appeared in the 50s of the last century.
      Or ASBU - automatic combat control system.
      It seems to be ABU / automated combat control / BCH-7
      Yes, transistor diodes, and hefty cabinets.
      But there was
      Now lumberjack-e

      Very beautiful contours of the project

      The actual question is whether "Chabanenko" will be able to fight off the tomahawks, taking into account the modernized weapons that will be put on it?

      It's unlikely.
      Zrk redoubt is needed and Zur 9M ****
  4. -3
    28 March 2023 06: 50
    Taking into account everything that we are now seeing in the actions of the Black Sea fleet, I propose a project - a heavily armored barge (not self-propelled in order to save money) according to the catamaran scheme (in order to make it difficult to drown) with powerful air defense and missiles. Everything or change to the mother of not good admirals urgently, yet they haven’t drowned anything. NWO is coming, but the naval forces need all the money for projects, and you can shrink for a while.
    1. +3
      28 March 2023 15: 27
      Quote: saigon
      Taking into account everything that we are now seeing in the actions of the Black Sea fleet, I propose a project - a heavily armored barge (not self-propelled in order to save money) according to the catamaran scheme (in order to make it difficult to drown) with powerful air defense and missiles.

      It is better to give the fleet an air regiment for the same money and teach admirals how to use aviation. The last one will be the most difficult. smile
  5. +5
    28 March 2023 07: 11
    The minor article, moreover, crafty in places, from the author Andrei Vladimirovich Kononov, differs from the review article, without any bias on 30.12.2021/XNUMX/XNUMX from Kirill Ryabov!
    Why did the author stick the SVO here, what is it possible to use the destroyer in this operation? If, only in the "steppes of Ukraine".
    Compared Chabanenko with RTOs for Kh-35 missiles, but why don't we focus on the 3S14 launch complex, for 16 missiles (zircon, Onyx, Caliber, Answer)? Are these missiles worse than the Mosquito with a range of 150 km?
    What, Shell, is worse than Broadsword?
    And the modern 130 mm gun mount is lighter, worse than the double-barreled 130 mm gun, which they began to develop in 1976?
    Why compare gas turbine engines when both Gorshkov and Kasatonov run on Ukrainian engines.
    Modernization of the radar, the same unnecessary thing?
    Yes! The shipbuilders promised to hand over Chabanenko by the end of 2023, but I think, as always, the shift will be to the right, but by how much, the question is!
    1. +2
      28 March 2023 10: 08
      Quote: Sergey39
      Why did the author stick CBO here

      laughing For solidity!
  6. 0
    28 March 2023 08: 25
    M-yes.
    So it was during the period of domination of the sea of ​​battleships, when the monstrous towers of the main caliber housed their own optical rangefinders


    No need to casually forward statements in related topics if you do not understand them.
  7. -1
    28 March 2023 08: 27
    The stormy fantasies of the author - even two UVPs (by the way, these are 8 Onyx + 8 PLUR - dreams come true!) It is not so easy to shove into a ship in which no space was initially provided for this. That is why I had to change the AU (yes, - together with 2 AK-100s or one AK-130, dreams will not come true, something had to be sacrificed). Theoretically, one could try to replace the Dagger with the Redoubt .... but only in theory.
  8. -3
    28 March 2023 08: 44
    What can oppose a salvo of eight anti-ship missiles directed at the side of the frigate pr. 22350?

    An example of one well-known cruiser shows that the surest thing is to try to batten down the bulkheads and turn bow or stern.
  9. +5
    28 March 2023 08: 45
    The large anti-submarine ship of project 11551 "Admiral Chabanenko" was built for almost ten years (laid down on February 28.02.1989, 14.12.1992; launched on December 28.01.1999, XNUMX; commissioned on January XNUMX, XNUMX), which has become almost the norm for modern Russia during the construction ships of the first rank.

    From the mid-90s, I worked on the Germany-Kaliningrad line, at the Yantar Shipyard there were three hulls, one Chabanenko Pr.11551, the second Yaroslav the Wise Pr.11540 laid down in 1988, which left the factory in 2009 . 20 years even with the collapse of the Union, this is a lot, because the estimated life of ships is 25 years. At the same plant, there was a third hull without a name, but it was never brought to the state of a ship. After Peter the Great, if anyone was engaged in shipbuilding, then they didn’t reach their hands, then there was no money. Limited capacity CVD with outdated equipment. The most modern plant at the time of the collapse was Sevmashpredpriyatie, two Nikolaev plants and one in Kerch. For 30 years after the collapse, little has changed, except for what has subsided, and an attempt to create a modern CVD at the DVK.
    South Korea, Taiwan are not powerful powers, but the CVD is a couple of orders of magnitude higher, China 30 years ago, when the "collapse" occurred, was at the level of Russia in shipbuilding, but now it has already surpassed the United States. Without a fleet, Russia is a regional power, and hundreds of billions of dollars were brought abroad by Russia's enemies, and there was nothing for it, but it will not be, this is not the time of Joseph Vissarionovich.
  10. -2
    28 March 2023 09: 01
    11551 overhaul without frills and at sea for service - an old ship, alas, let it just serve with honor to rest. Turn into a museum and into St. Petersburg. He deserved this right.
  11. 0
    28 March 2023 11: 06
    In addition to the notorious cut of the budget

    special accounts and absolute control + secret
    when we don’t know something because we are not supposed to - immediately cut
  12. +2
    28 March 2023 11: 38
    But to exchange eight heavy supersonic "Mosquitoes" for subsonic "Uranus" for a destroyer?!

    More precisely will be exchange empty launchers for "Mosquitoes" for subsonic "Uranus".
    Or is the author not aware that the production of "Mosquitoes" at AAC "Progress" was discontinued back in 2014?
    Re-equipment of the Kinzhal air defense system. The system was put into service in 1986 and proved to be excellent on BODs and destroyers. The land analogue of the complex has successfully passed at least one full-fledged modernization and no less successfully confirms the real combat capabilities in the NVO in Ukraine.

    Between the ship "Dagger" and the land "Thor" the difference now is the same as between the base T-72 and T-90.
    For the ships, "Kupol" developed "Tor-MF" on its own initiative. But the Navy is still leaning towards Pantsir-M.
    Evil tongues claim that the new generation of Russian gas turbine engines was not created from scratch and not from scratch, but is a further development of their Ukrainian predecessors.

    And what's with the bad tongues?
    There was no bare place - the Turborus ship gas turbine engines until 2014 were developed jointly:
    On the Russian side, NPO Saturn OJSC (responsibility zone - power turbine), NPO Avrora FSUE (GTE, diesel and unit control systems), Kolomensky Zavod OJSC (diesel engine) participate in the cooperation on the creation of the unit. on the part of Ukraine - GP NPKG "Zorya - Mashproekt" (turbocharger and gearbox). The tests are carried out on the basis of the Ukrainian state enterprise RPC "Zorya-Mashproekt", since there is no bench base for testing offshore gas turbine units in Russia yet.
    © bmpd
    As a result, not all GTE units had to be replaced, but only the gearbox and turbocharger. Well, build a test bench.
    1. 0
      28 March 2023 14: 44
      Already in Yaroslavl, the engine was made, and the stand. Already even put on "Yaroslav M.".
      And there is also a stand in Kronstadt at the morzavod - there was a branch of "Zori"
      Now the new Kingisepp mash is in full swing. the plant is a branch of Transmashholding. Everything will be there.
      1. 0
        28 March 2023 15: 24
        Quote from Vashek
        Already in Yaroslavl, the engine was made, and the stand.

        In Rybinsk, the test complex was already in operation in February 2018.
        UEC-Saturn created and put into operation a unique assembly and test complex for shipboard gas turbine units (SIK KGTA) with unique test benches for the country with a capacity of up to 15 to 40 MW
        © bmpd, February 28, 2018.
  13. 0
    28 March 2023 11: 40
    Good article - detailed. I would like to see all this in the "iron" as soon as possible.
  14. +2
    28 March 2023 12: 02
    The entire evolution of naval artillery at the height of the perfection of specific classes of gun systems confirmed the invariable postulate that achieving maximum pointing accuracy when firing artillery is achieved due to the closest possible convergence of the barrel line with the aiming line. So it was during the period of domination of the sea of ​​battleships, when the monstrous towers of the main caliber housed their own optical rangefinders

    In fact, tower rangefinders in all fleets were considered reserve and were intended for fire control in the event of failure of the main rangefinders and SUAO.
    And the basis of the SUAO was two or three KDP / rangefinder posts, placed as high as possible - on the roof of the superstructure, on the top of the mast, on the conning tower. The reason is simple - visibility range + less weather influence. In the battle of "Rinaun" with "Charles" and "Gnei" in 1940, the tower rangefinders failed due to the fact that they were tritely flooded in a wave (the rangefinders were drained for 3 days).
    1. +2
      28 March 2023 12: 31
      Yes sir. In WWI - a central aiming sight, in WWII - KDP, for the Anglo-Saxons it's all a "director". But for modern small-caliber automatic installations, the location of the radar / aiming optics on the installation itself is really preferable.
      1. +2
        29 March 2023 10: 28
        Quote: Dimax-Nemo
        But for modern small-caliber automatic installations, the location of the radar / aiming optics on the installation itself is really preferable.

        There is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, yes, when installing a radar in a block with MZA, the parallax is minimal. On the other hand, the radar makes the moving part of the AC heavier (both in mass and in moments), which is especially critical for ZAK with their requirements for guidance speeds. Plus, the proximity of electronics to vibrating when firing brrrt not in the best way affects reliability (especially in terms of contacts).
        And on the third hand, for the defeat of maneuvering anti-ship missiles, the accuracy of ZAK is not critical. Its task is to create a "scrap cloud" in the zone of the probable location of anti-ship missiles (which is determined by the permissible overloads of anti-ship missiles). And then there is the matter of statistics. smile
  15. 0
    28 March 2023 12: 18
    Author, please: do not talk about things in which you have a superficial idea. In particular, about the engines and units of Zori and Saturn and their interchangeability. On such a serious site, I think you need to be more careful with information.
  16. 0
    28 March 2023 14: 10
    In short, the military shipbuilding of Russia is in the ass.
  17. +1
    28 March 2023 17: 44
    It seems that this article is for making money, taking into account the retelling of the biography of Admiral Chabanenko. The author, a weak specialist in maritime subjects.
    At Chabanenko, the dock repair at the Nerpa shipyard was completed and it went under its own power for modernization to another plant in Murmansk, back in early 2022.
    They promised to hand over the ship at the end of 2022, but, as always, they postponed it to the end of 2023. We'll see.
    There is experience and developments in the modernization of Shaposhnikov, and they are used with certain changes. Instead of 8, there will be 16 Kh-35 missiles. Instead of the Kortik air defense system, they will put the Pantsir air defense system. In some sources, there was talk of replacing the Kinzhal air defense system with the Shtil air defense system. But, this modernization is a question.
    They are silent about torpedo weapons, the NK Package, or they will get by with the Answer.
    What about RBU, they will leave it or dismantle it.
    In any case, the ship will be more armed and its anti-submarine functions will not be affected.
    It will be a good ship in the KPUG warrant.
  18. 0
    28 March 2023 18: 12
    It is the “anti-corvette” that is considered the X-35 anti-ship missile.

    Rumor has it that it was a missile of this class that, in the amount of a couple of jokes, RK "Moskva" was sunk.
  19. -1
    28 March 2023 23: 47
    Back in the distant eighties, I read in the Soviet Foreign Military Review that Western countries were switching to arsenal ships, where the main thing would be the number of launchers.
    Universal launchers in which missiles and anti-ship and anti-aircraft and some other missiles can be stored.
    And we are still trying to modernize it is not clear how and it is not clear why.
    1. +1
      29 March 2023 08: 23
      And, ships with missiles and so are arsenals, their launchers cannot be reloaded at sea, you need to go to the base, so they came up with a large number of launchers.
      Our leader in PU, the cruiser Nakhimov, which is planned to be put to sea at the end of 2023.
      1. +2
        29 March 2023 10: 37
        Quote: Sergey39
        And, ships with missiles and so arsenals, their launchers cannot be reloaded at sea, you need to go to the base,

        Well, the Americans were initially under the illusion of reloading at sea. smile Because of this, on the Tiki and the first Burks, one Strikedown module was installed in the bow and stern blocks of the UVP - instead of 8 standard UVPs, this module had 5 UVPs + a crane in place of 3 UVPs.

        But then they abandoned this concept, replacing the Strikedown with a standard 8-cell module.
  20. +1
    29 March 2023 12: 53
    Dear author, why are you so pessimistic? Repair and modernization of the ship will last 4 years maximum, not 10 years.
    The ship's power plant does not need to be changed. This is a very complex process involving cutting the hull and reconfiguring the entire engine room. This is the case when it is really better, easier and cheaper to build a new ship. They will repair and sort out the old power plant. They didn’t change it even at Shaposhnikov and Vinogradov, which are older than Chabanenko for more than 10 years.
    They will replace the Daggers with the Shells, and the rest of the modernization will be carried out according to the Vinogradov scheme. Instead of the bow and stern complexes ,, Dagger ,, an air defense system ,, Shtil-1 ,, will be installed. There are 24 medium-range anti-aircraft missiles in the bow and 24 missiles in the stern. A total of 48 missiles.
    Instead of the heavy and bulky AK-130 gun mount, which occupies a large space below deck, they will put the A-190, which is many times lighter and takes up less space.
    In front of the superstructure, where salute guns are placed, two VPU 3S-14 ,, Caliber ,, 16 cells will be squeezed in. Two more TLUs will be installed at the stern, instead of the dismantled RBU ,, Boa constrictor ,, A total of 32 cells. Under PLUR, anti-ship missiles of various types and CR. The ship will also carry ,, Onyxes , which will adequately replace anti-ship missiles ,, Mosquito ,,.
    In place of the dismantled launchers, Mosquito, two launchers, Uranus, will be placed on each side. There are 16 missiles in total.
    Instead of TA, they will put in their place PTZ, Package-NK .. four pipes on each side with small-sized torpedoes and anti-torpedoes. Perhaps even 8 pipes on board. The sit is here.
    The radar is planned and Fourke, and ,, Positive ,, and ,, Mineral ,,
    It will be quite a combat destroyer.
    1. 0
      30 March 2023 11: 55
      After all, it is not difficult to deceive me, I myself am glad to be deceived! That is, you assume a complete rearmament in terms of rocket-artillery and radio-electronic ... I would rather bet that the ship will not come out of repair at all. hi
      1. 0
        30 March 2023 13: 14
        According to this scheme, they plan to modernize the BOD ,, Admiral Vinogradov ,,. In addition to ,, Shells ,,. And this ship is 10 years older than ,, Chabanenko ,, It is in the factory, under repair. All antenna posts were removed from it, both gun mounts and four AK-630s were removed. Also removed were ,, Daggers ,, RBU and TA. Everything will change to other weapons. The works are designed for 4 years. ,, Chabanenko ,, has every chance to undergo the same modernization.
      2. +1
        4 May 2023 16: 32
        Quote: Scharnhorst
        After all, it is not difficult to deceive me, I myself am glad to be deceived! That is, you assume a complete rearmament in terms of rocket-artillery and radio-electronic ... I would rather bet that the ship will not come out of repair at all.

        The ship got under repair due to the development of the power plant. There is no replacement for DT59, M90 is a pumped D090, and is similar in weight and dimensions to it. Due to the difference in speed, you will have to change the gearboxes, including the inter-gear jumper. The afterburner DT59 was connected through a gearbox to the shafts through a ShPM (tire-pneumatic clutch), and it would have to be recalculated and the screws changed to a heap.
        Something like this))). It is cheaper to build a new ship, taking into account the fact that we cannot make gearboxes of this type yet, all the necessary equipment in Ukraine. Planetary gearboxes operating from 14000 rpm to 150. We don’t make such gears now, there are no such furnaces
        1. 0
          4 May 2023 16: 38
          As one of my friends said, it’s cheaper to take Nikolaev with Zorey-Mashproekt than to build such a thing from scratch
    2. 0
      30 March 2023 16: 17
      Fantasy, all this will not happen. It has been standing for 9 years now.
  21. +2
    29 March 2023 22: 36
    If the modernization is successful (not like the cruiser Moskva), then our Navy will receive a completely modern destroyer, not counting the Uran complex, since Onyx missiles seem to me a more powerful and advanced weapon. This is an ocean-class warship and, despite its age, it will look preferable on a long voyage than the long-suffering frigate of the "Gorshkov" type.
    It's a pity that some gay managers in the Ministry of Defense managed to send the last cruiser of project 1144 "Admiral Lazarev" for recycling. So it would be with us (after the modernization of Admiral Nakhimov and Admiral Lazarev, and then Peter the Great) three (!) Most powerful missile cruisers - one (or two) in the Northern Fleet and one in the Pacific Fleet - two are constantly in service, one is on prophylaxis, eh , Dreams Dreams...
    I am sure that in the current conditions to carry out such modernization of some Soviet-built warships is a much more correct decision than to wait until the "effective managers" get tired of cutting the people's dough and bring the "new Russian" diesel engines, turbines and gearboxes to mind. In this state, the construction of new modern ships of the first rank, such as the Project 23560 Leader destroyer, for example, and even more so (now another fleet hater will grab his heart somewhere), such as a nuclear aircraft carrier (!) Is simply unrealistic ...
  22. 0
    29 May 2023 18: 18
    It's definitely good stuff.
    It is a pity that MO VO does not read in principle, and will not hear the cries of the soul.

    About the placement of 3S14 - I recommend evaluating the height of the placement of the launcher on a classmate. And also compare the masses (in fact, AI's favorite topic is masses, dimensions, weight distribution)
    X-35 shove nonsense there, but there are inclined launchers from RTOs that are fully capable of launching Onyxes.
    AU was replaced primarily because of the weight, I think, in order to maintain the weight distribution.

    And yes, first of all, the BOD would be worth replacing the TA with 324 mm, but not the Paket-NK PU, but light ones, you can even stupidly on the turntable the same way.
    And not this heavy crap with bk 4 torpedoes without the possibility of reloading.
  23. +1
    28 March 2024 20: 47
    Question for competent visitors to this resource: the other day it will be 10 years since Chabanenko underwent repairs and modernization, when will we see him in service again? How many more work mods will be added and delivery deadlines will be postponed?