Submachine gun PPK-20 went into series and enters the army

195
Submachine gun PPK-20 went into series and enters the army
The first version of PPK-20 shown in 2020


In 2020, the Kalashnikov concern developed and introduced a promising small-sized submachine gun PPK-20. In the future, this weapon passed all the necessary tests, incl. as part of trial operation in the troops, and confirmed the design characteristics. To date, all the main work on this project has been completed, and the submachine gun has entered serial production. The first batches of weapons have already been sent to customers.



Production success


Since the first presentation of the new submachine gun, the Kalashnikov concern has regularly talked about the work carried out and their results. They also revealed some plans for the future and made forecasts. Just a few important News this kind has appeared in recent months, incl. literally in a few days.

In August, during the Army-2022 forum, Kalashnikov President Alan Lushnikov announced that by the end of the year, PPK-20 submachine guns and microwave sniper rifles would be delivered to the troops. He also called the new submachine gun the best example in its class, and for the next 20 years. A month later, in mid-September, A. Lushnikov confirmed the previously announced information. At that time, the concern continued to work, and the supply of serial products was still going to begin before the end of the year.


In the last days of December, the management of the Kalashnikov concern spoke about the use of new samples, incl. PPK-20, in the zone of the Special Operation. The weapon was handed over to the armed forces and is being tested in a real conflict. Feedback from users has been established. The responses and wishes of the fighters are analyzed and will be used in the further development of projects.

On February 20, the international military-technical exhibition IDEX 2023 opened in Abu Dhabi (UAE). A joint exposition of the Russian defense industry, organized by Rosoboronexport, was located in a separate pavilion of a large area. One of the participants in this exposition, as in previous times, is Kalashnikov. The concern represents all major modern developments.

In a press release dedicated to the opening of the exhibition, Kalashnikov notes the high commercial potential of the PPK-20 and other samples. Moreover, for the first time, it is reported that export orders for such weapons have been received. The first batches of submachine guns have already been sent to unnamed foreign buyers.

According to TASS, on February 21, A. Lushnikov summed up the interim results of the PPK-20 project. According to him, the Kalashnikov Concern and the Ministry of Defense are now taking measures to adopt the submachine gun into service. At the same time, mass production is established and deliveries are carried out in the interests of the customer.


PPK-20 in 2021 version

For special forces and pilots


Perspective "Kalashnikov submachine gun arr. 2020" PPK-20 was created at the end of the last decade. The finished sample, which has probably already passed the first tests, was first shown to the public in 2020. A year later, a significantly revised version was shown.

PPK-20 was created on the basis of the serial submachine gun PP-19-01 in the Vityaz-SN variant. When developing a new sample, the experience of designing and manufacturing an existing sample was used. In addition, the tactical and technical requirements took into account the wishes of military personnel and intelligence officers who used PP-19-01.

The result of the development was a compact and lightweight submachine gun, using the common 9x19 mm Parabellum pistol cartridge, with high fire performance. Depending on the tasks at hand, the product can be equipped with different devices and accessories.

Initially, it was reported that the PPK-20 will be used by special forces of the armed forces and other structures that require a compact and lightweight weapon. In addition, in 2020-21 tests of the submachine gun began as part of the emergency reserve of pilots of the aerospace forces. They were supposed to use the PPK-20 for self-defense or as a survival tool.


According to the news of recent months, the Kalashnikov Concern is mass-producing new submachine guns and sending batches of these weapons to customers. Our army has already received an unknown number of such products, and they are used during the Special Operation. The details of such exploitation remain unknown, but the development organization is studying and taking them into account.

Technical features


PPK-20 is a compact folding submachine gun for common ammunition. The total length (with the butt unfolded) reaches 660 mm, when folded - 475 mm. Weight with a magazine, but without cartridges - 2,7 kg. Dimensions and weight provide high ease of use, incl. after installing the necessary devices.

The design of the PPK-20 was originally based on Kalashnikov assault rifles of the hundredth series. During the modernization of 2021, the developments under the AK-12 project were used. In both versions, the layout and ergonomics typical of AK products are retained, and parts of a recognizable shape are also used. At the same time, the main parts of the weapon were redesigned for new ammunition and a different principle of operation.

The submachine gun is equipped with a 9 mm rifled barrel 181,5 mm long with a chrome channel. A slotted flame arrester is installed on the muzzle. Especially for PPK-20, a low-noise firing device was developed. It is installed directly on the flame arrester and is secured with a bayonet connection.


PPK-20 received automation based on a free shutter. The bolt looks like the bolt carrier of an AK, but instead of a gas piston, it has a massive rod that ensures proper weight distribution. The shutter is supported by a return spring of a traditional AK design. The shot is fired with the shutter closed. Rate of fire - 800 rds / min.

The design of the trigger mechanism is borrowed from the latest models of machine guns and finalized as necessary. The trigger is built according to the trigger scheme and is controlled by a traditional trigger. On the right side of the receiver, a flag of an advanced design fire fuse-translator is displayed. A smaller checkbox has been added on the left.

Food is supplied from detachable 30-round magazines borrowed from the Vityaz. Various types of 9x19 mm cartridges are used.

The submachine gun is equipped with a folding telescopic stock with adjustable length and an ergonomic pistol grip. On top of the receiver and forearm there is a long rail for mounting sights. There is a regular diopter sight, designed for a range of up to 200 m.


A special bag has been developed for the submachine gun. It allows you to carry the weapon itself, as well as several magazines, a low-noise shooting device, various accessories, etc. The bag also simplifies the packing of the PPK-20 into the pilot's emergency supply, its subsequent removal and use.

With the desired result


Thus, in just a few years, the Kalashnikov concern developed, tested and brought to mass production a new type of small arms with a special combination of characteristics and features. The process of creating a new submachine gun PPK-20 to some extent simplified the use of ready-made developments on previous products. But even in this case, the pace of work and their results are commendable.

As reported, the troops are already receiving serial PPK-20s, mastering them and even using them in the Special Operation zone. The weapon of the new model contributes to the achievement of common goals. At the same time, Kalashnikov not only produces new serial products, but also continues to improve the project - now taking into account the experience of real combat use. And the results of these processes should be expected in the coming years.
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  1. +13
    25 February 2023 05: 12
    in size, it’s quite a Kalash only under nine (((
    1. 0
      26 February 2023 17: 35
      It's horrible! The butt is below the bore, so they also attached a weight above the barrel ... they did. All to increase barrel toss and reduce accuracy. Craft at the level of the 1950s. Modern PPs have a low-mass bolt, and locking the bolt by turning it or the barrel to reduce the mass of the bolt, and cutting off the burst length.
      1. 0
        9 May 2023 15: 25
        You confuse the industrial cartridge and the pistol cartridge .. the recoil is completely different. There is the opportunity to nail the mirror from your hand. The range of destruction is less than that of a shortening, you can shoot on the street. to the teeth divers or stoned Natsik ..
        1. 0
          10 May 2023 12: 19
          Less relevant for NWO weapons than PPK-20 can only be called pistols .... I think it was not worth writing in the article about "the general contribution to the goals of NWO". Missiles, artillery ammunition and armored vehicles are now relevant for the SVO, but not the PPK-20. This is a purely police submachine gun, outwardly beautiful (which means it will be loved by users, which is important), with such a mass of weapons and a 9x19 cartridge, there is practically no recoil in it. AK-74U for police purposes is clearly redundant and dangerous for the city. But for pilots and, especially, tankers, the AK-74U is probably better. Going to clean up saboteurs with him is more expensive for yourself ...
  2. +26
    25 February 2023 05: 18
    The machine is not bad, but it is purely a police car. There is nothing to do with this ratchet in a war. So a question arises in my mind, a small one - why did the topic of compact software suddenly surface right now?
    1. +8
      25 February 2023 05: 37
      why did the topic of compact software suddenly surface right now?

      Considering the distances of small arms combat, when the main actions of the infantry are carried out in buildings, in forest belts and even in trenches. Therefore, a compact weapon is required. Under such conditions, PPSh and PPS, slightly modernized and with new powerful armor-piercing cartridges, would even be in demand. It would be even better to restore the production of APS, which allows you to conduct high-speed aimed shooting with one hand, unlike Boas and other pistols, which must be held with both hands when shooting. Remember the assault on Shushi by the Azerbaijani special forces, when they climbed the cliffs with pistols, without heavy weapons and took the fortress in half a day. In development, it is better to have two APS than one AK. With a pistol, you can react faster and change the direction of fire in close combat. By the way, the APS has an aiming range of 200 meters, and two APS weigh only 2 kg instead of 3 kg of one PPK-20.
      1. +5
        25 February 2023 06: 04
        Conclusion: we need a polymer APS-2 for caliber 9x19.
        1. +5
          25 February 2023 06: 30
          Conclusion: we need a polymer APS-2 for caliber 9x19.

          Not necessarily polymer, the weight also positively affects the accuracy of shooting, without taking away from the aiming point when fired. I compared the weight of two APS with one PPK-20, since two weapons are twice as reliable as one, and this is very important in close combat. Moreover, the APS allows the use of an assault shield

          Pay attention to how a koryaao fighter with a shield holds a machine gun, since the shield is designed for a fighter with a pistol.
          1. +18
            25 February 2023 06: 55
            Well, I understand everything, both about kneading in trenches and about compactness / rate of fire, but there is such a ratchet - PP-9 "Klin" just for 9x19


            Much more compact, much lighter, the same cartridge, a distance of 150 meters - more than enough for kneading in trenches and nooks and crannies. It is convenient to work with one hand. The same 30 parons in the store. And most importantly, it has been mass-produced for a long time. So why plant a garden?
            1. 0
              25 February 2023 07: 11
              Please do not criticize. But it seems to me that for tankers, pilots, scouts, artillerymen, doctors and many others, an Uzi-type machine would be more convenient!
              1. +27
                25 February 2023 07: 21
                Well, there’s nothing to criticize you for, as it were, but if you objectively compare the Uzi and the Wedge, then with almost equal performance characteristics, the Uzi weighs 3,5 kg, and the Wedge 1,54 kg. Uzi shoots from an open bolt, Klin - from a closed one. I would choose Clint.
                1. +10
                  25 February 2023 12: 15
                  "Wedge" under 9x19 is well suited for those who are uncomfortable walking with a machine gun, all sorts of mortarmen, artillerymen, signalmen, grenade launchers, self-propelled gunners and machine gunners.
                  Namely, the pilots asked for something powerful but with a low-noise shooting device.
                  So they were offered a Lebedev pistol paired with a PPK-20.
                2. 0
                  28 February 2023 20: 00
                  Quote: Leader_Barmaleev
                  Uzi weighs 3,5 kg, and Wedge 1,54 kg

                  It is not entirely correct to compare the PP from the 50s and the PP from the 90s.
                  Uzi PRO, which is released today, weighs 2.32 kg.
              2. +15
                25 February 2023 13: 21
                Pilots (represented by FighterBomber) strongly criticize weapons chambered for a pistol cartridge. With it, a downed pilot is not capable of fighting off an enemy armed with a machine gun and wearing a bulletproof vest. He is virtually unarmed. He does not need ultra-compactness - the pilot does not wear it on himself.
                1. +3
                  25 February 2023 23: 50
                  Quote from: blackGRAIL
                  He does not need ultra-compactness - the pilot does not wear it on himself.

                  Well, yes. Does the ejection seat have size and weight restrictions?
                2. +1
                  27 February 2023 11: 44
                  According to your reasoning, each pilot should have a Kord and possibly an RPG. I believe that a downed pilot should be thinking about running and hiding while waiting for recovery, and not facing certainly more numerous infantry units. Then a submachine gun is more than enough.
                  1. +4
                    27 February 2023 11: 52
                    For pilots, there is excellent 5,7x28 ammunition in any design ... Our menagers simply never dreamed of ... Apparently, it’s nothing but personal profit to count ... There are plenty of opportunities .. For example, a 5,45 sleeve is cut to 25 -27 mm, crimped up to 6,35; 7,62 or so is the most powerful cartridge .... And I forgot to say that cartridges for the troops come from the civilian market ... In the Russian Federation, it means only trauma .... complete sadness
                    1. +4
                      27 February 2023 16: 13
                      As for the literacy of our gunmen, you can rest assured that they understand more than you, for sure. And now, in the case, for a silent and low-noise weapon, the largest possible caliber is chosen, since a bullet flying at a low initial speed must maintain momentum at least due to mass.
                      1. +1
                        27 February 2023 18: 21
                        I agree, I’ll just add to this, who’s stopping you from inserting a bullet of a larger mass. For example, I experiment with a mass of up to 120 UAH; almost the same as the 9mm Luger .. Who's stopping you?
                3. +1
                  28 February 2023 08: 11
                  To penetrate body armor, you just need to supply the pilots with armor-piercing cartridges for the PPK. They are and are being produced, the issue of supply. We still don’t have many pilots, supplying them with such cartridges is not such a difficult task.
                  1. 0
                    28 February 2023 17: 46
                    All this bullshit is a weak pistol cartridge (9mm for sure) .. The pilot needs a compact machine gun (bulpup is quite possible) in .300 Blackout caliber powerful at short range .. An analogue could be a cartridge from 5,45x39 recompressed for a 7,62 bullet ..
                    1. +1
                      4 March 2023 09: 37
                      The AK-74U assault rifle was created and entered service for fighters with "who have little space" drivers, pilots, etc., etc.
                    2. Zoo
                      +1
                      6 March 2023 09: 33
                      Interesting. Cartridge 5,45x39, re-crimped under 7,62 ... Does this turn out to be a cartridge 7,62x39? What a bold and innovative proposal, if only someone had thrown this idea to the designers Semin and Elizarov in 1943.
                      1. 0
                        April 6 2023 12: 43
                        This is almost the same path as the .300 Blackout .. The task is to create a powerful ammunition for short distances .. Which, by the way, could be useful to the pilot ..
                4. 0
                  5 March 2023 19: 37
                  Will the capture group with armor come running and comb through? Rather, it will be a local teroborona or police from limited fit men in caps ...
            2. +4
              25 February 2023 10: 05
              Quote: Leader_Barmaleev

              Much more compact, much lighter, the same cartridge, a distance of 150 meters - more than enough for kneading in trenches and nooks and crannies.

              It turns out that for each battle a fighter must have different small arms? Those. change it depending on the situation?
              When he is on the defensive, in a trench in an open area, it is desirable for him to have weapons: a) long-range, b) rapid-fire, e) with good accuracy of battle. If a soldier is fighting in the captured enemy trenches, what does he need? - Best of all, something similar to PPS. In urban areas, something in between. And how to be? I guess - something in between - AK-12
              And deliveries to the troops of PPK-20 are nothing more than a commercial project.
              I admit that for fighters associated with equipment: cars, artillery, tanks, planes, radars, etc., it is possible that the PPK-20 will be in place. But not the first line fighters.
              1. +8
                25 February 2023 11: 03
                It turns out that for each battle a fighter must have different small arms?
                Quite right. There is a fight in an open area, a fight in a mountainous forest, a fight in the city and a fight indoors. Yes, and the battle in the trench.
              2. +4
                25 February 2023 12: 14
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                It turns out that for each battle a fighter must have different small arms? Those. change it depending on the situation?

                It turns out that in the army a single unit is not a fighter, but a squad (well, or a special group). Which is armed with a variety of weapons. And special units have a whole zoo, and pick up "animals" for themselves, depending on the task ahead.
              3. +1
                25 February 2023 12: 45
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                It turns out that for each battle a fighter must have different small arms?

                Of course. The pistol was born out of a desire to increase the effective distance of hand-to-hand combat, at least up to 5 meters. And already in WWI, in addition to a rifle, having a pistol for trench fighting was a condition for survival. The AKM-type submachine gun gave the illusion that you could get by with one weapon for everything. But it was originally an illusion.
                So yes, for short distances you need a light ratchet, for long distances - a long barrel. And not everyone. If you manage to find one shooter under a good barrel per squad - this is a huge success. The rest of the 200m sighting range - behind the eyes.
                1. +7
                  25 February 2023 12: 48
                  Quote: Mikhail3
                  The AKM-type submachine gun gave the illusion that you could get by with one weapon for everything.

                  There were no "illusions" ... to the squad - SVD, RPK, PKM .. to AKM (AK-74) .. and other RPGs ...
                  1. -2
                    26 February 2023 12: 29
                    Was) That's how civilian ministers got into the ministries of defense, and so it appeared)
              4. 0
                26 February 2023 17: 39
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                It turns out that for each battle a fighter must have a different shooting

                In addition to the assault rifle, you need a pistol under about 7.5FK or 10mm Auto, or 9x21, with a double-row magazine and a low barrel position. In the development, it will sometimes make sense to throw a machine gun behind your back and get a gun while making your way somewhere.
                1. 0
                  26 February 2023 23: 12
                  Quote: eule
                  under about 7.5FK or 10mm Auto, or 9x21, with a two-row magazine and a low barrel position. In the development, it will sometimes make sense to throw the machine gun behind your back and get a gun

                  Also for.
                  Or a submachine gun chambered for 7.62x25
                  and yes. with double magazine
              5. 0
                4 March 2023 20: 44
                I remember whether it was for the Austrian AUG that they produced quick-change barrels to choose from: a short one for a carbine, a main one for an automatic rifle, and a long reinforced one for a light machine gun. I wonder if this idea is alive now?
            3. 0
              25 February 2023 11: 16
              So why plant a garden?

              It is possible to show the appearance of work ... the concern is state-owned, they may ask
            4. kpd
              0
              April 25 2023 13: 02
              PP-9 "Klin" is a 9x18 caliber, so PPK-20 for 9x19 caliber has a higher shot energy and is more suitable for export.
            5. 0
              10 May 2023 12: 36
              Excuse me, of course, but the reasoning about the PP-9 "Klin", APS and similar samples for "kneading in trenches" looks to me, to put it mildly, like the reasoning of people who are far from understanding the situation and not able to think through even the obvious details of the battle. Not to mention the details that are not obvious and comprehended only by the participants in the assaults. Have you thought that in order to get into the trenches, you first need to walk to them? It is far from always possible to reach them unnoticed, without a fight, and it may be necessary to conduct a firefight with the enemy behind the parapets of the trenches. And maybe even move back, dragging a wounded comrade. Will they work on you from trenches with AK-74s and PKs, will you shoot back and suppress enemy fire from 9x19? Well, well ... Or do you propose to carry the PPK or Klin with a second barrel, which can be used after descending into the trench? Very "compact and easy" to get. By the way, how does 9x19 work on body armor, armor plates and army helmets, is it guaranteed to flash? Or will you aim at the neck of the enemy? If you run out of ammo, can you replenish the killed enemy?
          2. SSA
            0
            26 February 2023 02: 24
            Do you think it’s more convenient to hold a shield with two APSs than with one AK?
          3. +2
            4 March 2023 09: 32
            how much does the shield weigh? ))) there the fighter is just a battering ram
        2. +6
          25 February 2023 12: 11
          Conclusion: we need a polymer APS-2 for caliber 9x19.

          Considering that now everything is in armor, it will be much more interesting for the APS under the caliber 7,62x25 (in the common people - "TT cartridge"). This cartridge, even in its original form, is a good hole punch, and if you work on it specially, you can achieve confident penetration of the main army SIBZ.
          1. 0
            25 February 2023 12: 34
            Maybe such a pistol is needed .... Only from the APS it cannot be made 9X18 the maximum possible (in terms of energy) cartridge for the design of automation used in the APS.
          2. 0
            26 February 2023 14: 50
            Serdyukov 9na21 and preferably pp for this cartridge.
          3. 0
            27 February 2023 11: 57
            Of course, the PPK-20 chambered for Luger is already yesterday .... TT is good, but why have two lines of ammunition when you can use one standard size. Variations on the theme of the TT cartridge - different bullets below ..
        3. 0
          25 February 2023 22: 16
          And why not under 7,62x25? It pierces better and the firing range is longer ...
        4. +3
          26 February 2023 13: 47
          Quote from DMFalke
          Conclusion: we need a polymer APS-2 for caliber 9x19.

          I had to shoot with one hand a burst of APS ... So-so fun. Accuracy ... well, maybe only within the limits of a standard apartment. The old man survived. It is only in reserve, in a warehouse, in case of emergency.
        5. -1
          27 February 2023 12: 53
          Quote from DMFalke
          Conclusion: we need a polymer APS-2 for caliber 9x19.

          and the correct conclusion is: return the AKS74U to production !!!!!!
      2. +7
        25 February 2023 07: 53
        Well, my sympathies have long been given to "Cheetah" ... He has a "plus" that "others" do not have! This is an opportunity to shoot 9mm cartridges of all "systems"! Up to (9x30) mm ... Considering that the "Boa" pistol chambered for (9x21) mm cartridges is being adopted, the presence of an "omnivorous" submachine gun "Cheetah" will not be superfluous!



        Now think about what will be more convenient for a commando with a shield and a pilot ... PPK-20 or "Gepard"?
        1. +4
          25 February 2023 09: 06
          Quote: Nikolaevich I
          my sympathies have long been given to "Cheetah"

          hi
          I once published an article about him.
          He did not go for a number of reasons.
          One of them is just multi-caliber, and a large number of interchangeable shutters.
          Have you read?
          1. +4
            25 February 2023 10: 51
            Quote: Mister X
            He did not go for a number of reasons.
            One of them is just multi-caliber, and a large number of interchangeable shutters.
            Have you read?

            I had to ... Well, this is "from which side" to look ... at the "shortcomings"! For some, "this" is a disadvantage! And for another, dignity! Estimate how many samples of submachine guns have been created and offered to the Armed Forces and special units in the country! "You are tormented to count!" And if you also take into account the "undercover" struggle of cartridges (9x19) mm and (9x21) mm ... and (9x18) mm is trying to "keep up" ... then you involuntarily think: hu from hu ... what is translated, how : fuck the ass with an accordion ... in the amount of 10 pieces!
        2. -1
          25 February 2023 13: 26
          An ejected pilot will be more comfortable with a weapon that can hit the enemy in the NIB at the same range as his enemy.
          1. +3
            26 February 2023 17: 51
            Even better is a Mosin rifle with armor-piercing cartridges.
          2. -1
            5 March 2023 19: 51
            You don't have to hit anything. Just keep rare but real shots at a distance until the turntables arrive.
      3. +10
        25 February 2023 08: 18
        Quote: Konnick
        Under such conditions, PPSh and PPS, slightly modernized and with new powerful armor-piercing cartridges, would even be in demand.

        7,62x25 was the most powerful (some even considered excessively powerful) pistol cartridge of those years, and could even be considered a weak intermediate cartridge. And the fact that it’s not very suitable for police functions (weak stopping effect), so it was necessary to make hollow point lead bullets in the same size for these purposes, and for the army a bullet with a steel armor-piercing core was just right, German helmets were full of holes. American police body armor, by the way, too, so the import and sale of such cartridges is prohibited, after the Chinese TT clone earned a reputation as a cop killer.
        And how much does this heaped wunderwaffle surpass the primitive, but reliable, stamping of the teaching staff? Is it really enough to justify the difference in production cost, and that's not counting development costs?
        1. +6
          25 February 2023 12: 18
          And the fact that it is not very suitable for police functions (weak stopping effect)

          Weak stopping action 7,62x25 is a myth. The bullet, due to supersonic speed, when passing through the tissues of the body, creates a concentric shock wave in them. Subsonic ammunition is incapable of this.
          1. +1
            25 February 2023 19: 48
            Quote: Mr. PeZhe
            And the fact that it is not very suitable for police functions (weak stopping effect)

            Weak stopping action 7,62x25 is a myth. The bullet, due to supersonic speed, when passing through the tissues of the body, creates a concentric shock wave in them. Subsonic ammunition is incapable of this.

            Well, it's pure physics. The bullet, passing through the body, takes with it a considerable part of its kinetic energy. The bullet, deformed and stuck in the body, gives it all the kinetic energy. This energy is spent, firstly, purely kinetically on giving an impulse directed from the shooter, i.e. if not discarded, then at least reduce the speed of the target going to the shooter. And secondly, the damage to body tissues is much more extensive than when an undeformed bullet passes right through. So with a much greater probability we have a painful shock, which greatly reduces the desire and ability to perform aggressive actions. This is largely why police officers can and prefer to use slow deforming large caliber bullets that are prohibited for use in war by the relevant conventions. There is little better stopping action, less risk of a rebound or passage right through and hitting someone uninvolved, for which the police are tried for money, or even criminally (manslaughter).
            1. 0
              22 May 2023 08: 45
              according to the FBI report, it takes 2 bullets on average to incapacitate a target, for a pistol cartridge of any caliber, except for .22LR, 1 bullet only when hit in the CNS
      4. +11
        25 February 2023 09: 52
        In development, it is better to have two APS than one AK.

        But not against an enemy who has a class 5 SIBZ and is ready to fight for his positions or, conversely, attack. Forgive me, but regular performance characteristics are not particularly correlated with real life, this is also about the aiming range of the APS, etc. In the 8th, between Tskhinval and Tbet, one of my partners fired with a Georgian for another 15 minutes after he got two hits in his chest with an AK-74M. The Georgian was in a NATO body armor, not even a "plate". The bullets lodged in him, leaving only hematomas on his body and possibly breaking a rib. As a result, I had to go around and throw grenades.
        And, you see the videos of shooting battles in 404, what kind of pistol caliber is there when the enemy retains combat effectiveness after several hits from AK ?!
        When working at an address, shield soldiers work with PP-2000 or with what is convenient or available, but this is a disaster in combined arms combat. In the end, those who have the opportunity to choose use Ksyusha, but not PP, to attack trenches and buildings.
      5. +1
        27 February 2023 20: 56
        With one hand, conduct rapid-fire and even aimed shooting from the APS. Well, you give the author, you are probably a magician and a juggler. At least you saw this gun in your eyes and held in your hands something to write like that.
      6. +1
        27 February 2023 21: 51
        Quote: Konnick
        In development, it is better to have two APS than one AK.

        Better to have one AK-74/AKS-74U than any pistol. Even in a trench, even in a "building", even in an open field. Anywhere and everywhere where concealed carrying of weapons is not required, it is preferable to have a normal machine gun.
    2. -10
      25 February 2023 07: 48
      . There is nothing to do with this ratchet in a war.
      I'm sorry how much wars passed?
      1. +6
        25 February 2023 07: 59
        I'm sorry, how many wars have passed?

        1. Do not apologize, you did not say anything offensive.
        2. This has nothing to do with the topic of the conversation.
        3. For what purpose are you interested?
        4. More than one.
      2. +7
        25 February 2023 08: 49
        I'm sorry, how many wars have passed?

        And you?
        It is very difficult to come up with a more stupid question on an Internet forum.
        1. -6
          25 February 2023 13: 28
          And you?
          More than two. More questions? Ask, I will answer.
          1. +5
            25 February 2023 15: 54
            Or maybe more than three or four, or maybe none at all? Do you really understand how stupid a person looks, boasting of his achievements, about which he cannot provide a single proof, in front of his interlocutors on the forum?
          2. +3
            25 February 2023 16: 00
            If you want, let's do an experiment.
            Just do not be offended, this is solely to show you the features of Internet discussions.
            So, I affirm - you have not been in any war and everything you say to the contrary is a lie. Refute.
    3. +3
      25 February 2023 10: 16
      Quote: Leader_Barmaleev
      The machine is not bad, but it is purely a police car. There is nothing to do with this ratchet in the war

      Yes, there is something. The only pity is that now the Kalashnikov ball is in full swing and their competitors, even winning some contests, still remain the losers. Here, the same "Degtyarevites" from Kovrov had and still have a better and more compact machine, which could be used to arm the crews of combat vehicles and command staff
      1. +1
        26 February 2023 15: 39
        Quote: svp67
        Quote: Leader_Barmaleev
        The machine is not bad, but it is purely a police car. There is nothing to do with this ratchet in the war

        Yes, there is something. The only pity is that now the Kalashnikov ball is in full swing and their competitors, even winning some contests, still remain the losers. Here, the same "Degtyarevites" from Kovrov had and still have a better and more compact machine, which could be used to arm the crews of combat vehicles and command staff

        the machine is good for everyone, only the cartridge no longer answers 9x18 for a Makarov pistol.
        if they had remade it under 7.62x25 or 9x21, then they would have wiped the nose of the Izhevsk people. But I doubt very much that the Izhmash lobby will be allowed into the Moscow Region.
        1. 0
          26 February 2023 16: 48
          Quote: insafufa
          if they remade it under 7.62x25 or 9x21, they would have lost it to Izhevsk but

          They have an option for 9x19 Luger and 9x21 with balanced automatics. And they already wiped their nose with this machine
      2. 0
        April 26 2023 14: 35
        [quote=svp67][quote=Vozhd_Barmaleev] The car is not bad, but it is purely a police car. There is nothing to do with this ratchet in a war [/ quote]
        Yes, there is something. The only pity is that now the Kalashnikov ball is in full swing and their competitors, even winning some contests, still remain the losers. Here, the same "Degtyarevites" from Kovrov had and still have a better and more compact machine, which could be used to arm the crews of combat vehicles and command staff.
        I just wanted to write about this. Lobbyist Kalashnikov in the Ministry of Defense Deputy Minister Krivoruchko.
    4. AAK
      +1
      25 February 2023 12: 32
      First of all, for the first time after Afghanistan, there are massive cases of evacuation of downed pilots, and it’s still better to leave with PP and 6 stores than with PM or even APS, plus it’s also more convenient for AKM for tankers, air defense officers, drivers, all those who not at the forefront...
      I agree, with cartridges 9x19 Par. or 9x18 PM is quite a decent PP for OMON / SOBR, in my opinion, for use in NAZ pilots or for drivers, or for crews of armored vehicles, it is necessary to make versions chambered for 7,62 TT / Mauser (who won the entire WWII in PPD / PPSh / PPS and TT), or chambered for 9x21 cartridge (from "Gyurza" or GSh-18), as for more powerful and long-range ones.
      1. +4
        26 February 2023 23: 09
        plus it’s also more convenient for AKM for tankers
        Let's start with the fact that the AKM tankers never had it. Why such a "shovel", if there is a more compact version of it .... When the AKM was in service with the CCC Armed Forces, all members of the tank crews had PMs + for the entire crew there was one machine gun, but not AKM, but AKMS! Subsequently, when the AK-74 was adopted, the AKMS in tanks replaced the AKS-74, and subsequently the AKS-74U ... But this was all the regular armament of the tank crews of the peaceful everyday life of the troops. But when it was not peaceful everyday life, as we had in Afghanistan, then there were no "pestles" in the form of PMs in tank crews, and everyone had AKS-74 or AKS-74U (and at first AKMS) and they are quite normally placed in the tank! We didn’t have insane tankers who would have agreed in those days to advance to a combat exit only with a PM in the pocket of a tank suit! And there is quite a place for AKS in the tank (there is no need to figure out where to attach it to the ejection seat, like the pilots) ....
        So, regarding the PP, tankers because of some kind of convenience there, supposedly ... - AKS-74 is quite convenient (from personal experience). In this case, consider the main nuance. Tanks (unlike aircraft, where there are different stories) are knocked out, as a rule, in conditions of direct contact with the enemy, when leaving the tank, the crew immediately has to fight back (engage in battle) from the battle formations of the adversary's infantry, armed with pistols and not at all protected ... - what kind of software is there. Returning to our Afghan campaign, even the AKS-74U was not held in high esteem there for combat use, the AKS-74 was still preferred (in BM crews). And you are talking about some convenience of software! And with regards to the PPK-20, presented in the article, so here and in general ... - it is exactly the same in size as the AKS-74U, only their characteristics are simply incommensurable. With all my disrespect for the AKS-74U, somewhere in the open field, I would still prefer this "cigarette butt" (as we called it in Afghanistan) rather than PP ...
        1. +1
          5 March 2023 20: 14
          Interesting and persuasive writing! wink But the pilot needs a PP on the same PSU with a pistol. And there is less space in an airplane than in a tank. And the capture group does not always have time to approach, and this is not a brave infantry, but a territorial defense. Everything is a little different. So the aviators of the PP will fit.
          1. 0
            6 March 2023 00: 38
            But the pilot needs a PP on the same PSU with a pistol
            I am writing (if you haven’t noticed) exclusively about tankers .... About the pilots, I noted that they have completely different layouts ... Although, again, if we take the PPK-20 presented in the article, it is exactly the same in size the same as the AKS-74U, which has long been in service (which I also wrote about) ... Unless, the BC of the PPK-20 will be somewhat lighter and more compact, with much weaker characteristics ... But for pilots, I think, PP can be sized and less!
    5. 0
      26 February 2023 15: 35
      Quote: Leader_Barmaleev
      The machine is not bad, but it is purely a police car. There is nothing to do with this ratchet in a war. So a question arises in my mind, a small one - why did the topic of compact software suddenly surface right now?

      The problem with weapons for the crews of tanks and infantry fighting vehicles is also for pilots. PPK 20 is a weapon for the police if it has a 9x18 Makarov pistol cartridge.
      He was needed back in Cher with a cartridge of 9x21 or 7,62x25.
      For me, chestnut is better chambered for 9x21
      1. -1
        27 February 2023 02: 54
        When the PPK was announced, they positioned it that way - for the police and therefore x18. What they have now put on our ears is a pure zhlobsky roll under the guise of caring for the working people. The question of a transitional patron, honestly speaking, reveals a huge distance between mature and immature capitalism, as in the Russian Federation. In other words, this is a purely organizational problem, not a technical one, and the organization of the military-industrial complex and innovations, i.e. efficiency of the national economy.
    6. 0
      4 March 2023 20: 33
      Such a "ratchet" surfaced in the 43rd. Pps was called. And why would it then?
  3. +3
    25 February 2023 05: 22
    PPK-20. Polizeipistole Kriminalmodell 20 laughing
    Sorry, associations, I can not do anything.
    1. 0
      26 February 2023 10: 07
      I have one association - PPE))) a condom weapon - I used it and threw it away. Because 1) the cartridges have run out, and there is nowhere to get new ones 2) lucky, very lucky, to shoot a loser with a normal army barrel, for some reason poking into the distance of defeating this pistol, and at the same time forgetting the armor, helmet and portraying "a loner-cool -walker". And so ... it’s easier for a pilot to shoot himself with a pistol.
      1. +1
        26 February 2023 18: 26
        I agree, Ksenia is better than such a PP
    2. +1
      26 February 2023 15: 36
      Quote from DMFalke
      PPK-20. Polizeipistole Kriminalmodell 20 laughing
      Sorry, associations, I can not do anything.

      I see I don't have the same association with Walter PPK
  4. +1
    25 February 2023 05: 26
    Well, for pilots and helicopter pilots, as a weapon of self-defense, that’s it ... for the battlefield, that is, for infantry, an empty sound out of the blue ...
    1. +5
      25 February 2023 05: 51
      Quote: Shket53
      Well, for pilots and helicopter pilots, as a weapon of self-defense, that’s it ... for the battlefield, that is, for infantry, an empty sound out of the blue ...

      So not peasants in pajamas and straw hats will hunt for flyers, but fighters completely in armor. So for the pilots, this is just a hefty pistol, i.e. about nothing...
      1. 0
        5 March 2023 20: 19
        Is the entire body of the enemy stuffed with capture groups in armor? And who is at the front?
    2. 0
      25 February 2023 08: 50
      that is, the pilots will be armed with a 9x21 pistol Boa and 9x19 PPK20?
      in theory, then the PPK should be translated into 9x21 to unify the ammunition. it will be easier and more convenient.
      1. +3
        25 February 2023 12: 42
        Quote: Nexcom
        that is, the pilots will be armed with a 9x21 pistol Boa and 9x19 PPK20?

        Isn't it a Lebedev pistol?
        1. 0
          26 February 2023 18: 21
          And the devil knows ... Either they wrote about Lebedev that they would be accepted into service, then then the Boa constrictor arose. Then they also changed the caliber of the Boa constrictor, and songs also began about the adoption. In general, one PR around ....
          1. 0
            28 February 2023 15: 14
            Quote: Nexcom
            In general, one PR around ....

            This is not "PR", this is kroilovo ..
  5. +4
    25 February 2023 05: 27
    It seems to me that in order to give the pilots the opportunity to break away from pursuit, small (in the size of an F-1 grenade) are needed, easily installed mines that cock after a short delay after installation (10 ... 15 seconds, so that the pilot has time to move to a safe distance ) and triggered by sounds and vibrations from the steps of the pursuers. One or two explosions would reduce the zeal of the pursuers and would give a gain in time.
    In small arms combat, pilots have little chance, although, of course, it is impossible to leave them completely without weapons.
    1. +1
      25 February 2023 10: 27
      Quote from Andy_nsk
      It seems to me that in order to give the pilots the opportunity to break away from pursuit ...


      In general, it is more logical then to give the pilot a small light drone and a power bank - then he will have good situational awareness and the same device will be a repeater and a radio beacon to call for help.
    2. +3
      26 February 2023 19: 10
      Quote from Andy_nsk
      It seems to me that in order to give the pilots the opportunity to break away from pursuit, small (in the size of an F-1 grenade) are needed, easily installed mines that cock after a short delay after installation (10 ... 15 seconds, so that the pilot has time to move to a safe distance ) and triggered by sounds and vibrations from the steps of the pursuers. One or two explosions would reduce the zeal of the pursuers and would give a gain in time.
      MIB "Insert" - Мmultifunctional Иengineering Бammunition
      He pulled out the pin, threw it away, after 12 minutes the MIB gets up on a combat platoon and works like a "frog" mine (sensors - 4 threads-wires of 10m each).
      In service since 2007, performance characteristics
      diameter 61,5mm
      height 170mm
      weight 830g
      weight BB 50g A-9-1
      defeat up to 10m
      hi
      Can you suggest more POM-2 и POM-3, but here you need to compare the dimensions - how much a pilot can take with him.
  6. +3
    25 February 2023 05: 30
    This is an ordinary Kalash chambered for a pistol cartridge. I will not talk about the advantages and disadvantages - I did not use it.
    1. 0
      25 February 2023 06: 03
      This is an ordinary Kalash chambered for a pistol cartridge.

      I would say ersatz AK.
    2. +6
      25 February 2023 06: 28
      No, this is not an ordinary Kalash! Automation is different!
      1. 0
        25 February 2023 07: 06
        No, this is not an ordinary Kalash! Automation is different!

        Only the scenery in the form of a gas tube has been left.
        1. -2
          25 February 2023 07: 39
          I'm wildly sorry, but a gas tube is inserted into a person's outlet to remove gases during flatulence. The machine has a GAS PIPE WITH A SHIELD. The PPK-20 has a free shutter, which does not need a gas return automation scheme - the sleeve moves the shutter back. The stem on the gate in this case is an element of weight balancing. Learn materiel.
          1. +3
            26 February 2023 00: 27
            Sergey, I see that "materiel experts" (who, along the way, have problems with flatulence, from that knowledge of other materiel) have put a lot of minuses on you! laughing
        2. +5
          25 February 2023 12: 20
          Quote: Konnick
          Only the scenery in the form of a gas tube has been left.

          This is not a "decoration". It acts as a guide for the shutter and a balancing counterweight for automation.
    3. +4
      25 February 2023 10: 41
      Especially for Sergei Averchenkov who wants to destroy all Ukrainians[b][/b] With apologies to the moderators for the off-topic post.
      Sent from Kyiv two days ago. -
      RUSSIAN Kyiv
      We are not saints and, in general, not like that ...
      For that they got into a vile binding.
      But you know, brother, there is the former Russian Kyiv,
      He is still alive, he prays and waits.

      They shout to him, they say, the brothers do not need you,
      And after spits, grinning, ukroham.
      And he gets up, slandered, unarmed,
      Washes his face and steps into the temple.

      And, taking off his hat, he puts there, silently, candles,
      While a pack of dogs breaks down the doors.
      Now they will break in to drive, maim,
      But Russian Kyiv is ready to die.

      For what? For these old icons
      For the joy that is spilled in the heart,
      For Victory Day, the voice in the choir is sonorous,
      And, in essence, for the Lord Christ.

      Saints of the Caves asks for protection
      Desecrated, but eternal Kyiv-grad:
      - Hear us, Anthony, Theodosius!
      And you hear, Russian brother-soldier.

      Do not believe, soldier, corrupt singers,
      That SS vile reigns here.
      Yes, we are in captivity, but in the Kyiv neighborhoods
      Holy Rus' lives invisibly.

      Come! Purified from demonic turbidity,
      The city will rise, God bless.
      Chkalov, Pushkin and Vatutin will return,
      Russian Jerusalem will be resurrected.

      Our path is not easy, but there is no place for sadness:
      One God, and we are one people.
      And Kyiv was never non-Russian,
      He is alive by faith, and prays and waits.
      You can write many critical words about this poem, but no one can deny that this is the "cry of the soul" of an elderly, believing Kyivian.
  7. +11
    25 February 2023 05: 30
    Various types of 9x19 mm cartridges are used.

    Any automatic weapon that uses this Parabellum cartridge is no different from the German MP-38/40 from a tactical point of view, because. the main combat characteristics are determined by the cartridge, and not by the presence of Picatinny rails or the amount of plastic. However!
    1. +2
      25 February 2023 05: 44
      I had to shoot from the PPSh. Excellent submachine gun, better penetration than MP 38, easy to manufacture. I don't know where else is better. I think it would still be relevant as an indoor assault weapon.
      1. +1
        25 February 2023 06: 32
        It's just that the wounds received from 9 mm are different from 7,62 * 25!
        1. +1
          25 February 2023 07: 07
          9 mm has a more stopping effect, and 7.62x25 has a penetrating effect. I don’t think that having received a burst from a rapid-fire PPSh there are many chances to stay alive. When I fired at the target in a couple of seconds at 30 meters, a couple of bullets even hit the head.
      2. +1
        25 February 2023 06: 59
        Doesn't the weight of the PPSh bother you?
        And the size is big
        1. +1
          25 February 2023 07: 55
          There is no perfect weapon. If you need a small size, then you can put the Glock pistol in automatic mode and not strain.
        2. +4
          25 February 2023 14: 00
          The dry weight of the PCA is less than that of the MP-38, and is equal to that of the ultrasound.
          And if you replace the stock with something from modern materials, it will be lighter than the MP-5.
          It is strange that they still have not been puzzled by restyling in the direction of convenience and compactness, the experience of the same Stalingrad suggests that it is indispensable for cleaning buildings
      3. 0
        28 February 2023 10: 04
        I don't know where else is better.

        PPS is better - more technologically advanced and easier. And so why bother dragging these ancient things to war? The PP class has progressed quite well, this is not a large-caliber Browning machine gun, which is still quite relevant now.
    2. +3
      25 February 2023 12: 22
      This cartridge is currently the most problem-free (of the mass) for reducing (extinguishing) the sound of a shot.
  8. +2
    25 February 2023 05: 49
    Has anyone used this machine, did he only use the MP-5 a little?
    I watched a number of their promotional videos - it seemed to me that the trembling in the hands is much stronger than the MP-5?
    It seems that the cartridge is the same ... I remember the MP-5 much softer than the ultrasound, it does not lose its purpose ...
    And why is it needed - it would be nice if the military users themselves chose the weapon, whether it be attack aircraft or pilots, and not by order, not even the company commander, but colonel generals ...
    1. 0
      28 February 2023 10: 20
      The features of the MP-5 automation are such that it is much softer, there is a circuit with a roller shutter, and the ultrasound and PPC have a free shutter, which is why they "tremble in the hands", this is a less complicated circuit, but the shutter energy is extinguished not so effectively.
  9. +2
    25 February 2023 06: 38
    No matter how I look, I see AKSU.
    1. 0
      25 February 2023 09: 53
      Quote: Prokop_Svinin
      No matter how I look, I see AKSU.

      This would be very nice, but unfortunately it is not.
      1. +1
        25 February 2023 14: 50
        AKSU has an excess cartridge. For the crew of the aircraft it will do, but for indoor combat, with a huge flash, it is unlikely.
        1. 0
          26 February 2023 06: 14
          Quote: Aviator_
          AKSU has an excess cartridge. For the crew of the aircraft it will do, but for indoor combat, with a huge flash, it is unlikely.

          And is this a reason to equip pilots with obviously flawed weapons? By the way, the AKS-74U is perfectly equipped with a "silencer" instead of a regular flame arrester, which is also quite efficient ...
        2. 0
          5 March 2023 20: 27
          The cartridge is normal, but the barrel is shorter than the required minimum for the burning of gunpowder.
  10. +12
    25 February 2023 06: 39
    Kalashnikov President Alan Lushnikov said that by the end of the year, the troops would receive PPK-20 submachine guns and microwave sniper rifles. He also wink called the new submachine gun the best example laughing in its class, and for the next 20 years laughing . A month later, in mid-September, A. Lushnikov confirmed lol previously provided information.
    Everything about this text is great. But in general, the PR service of a company like Kalashnikov would need to master the Russian language.

    Many copies have been broken around the topic "what is a weapon for a pilot under an intermediate cartridge is better than a weapon for a pistol cartridge and the best weapon for a pilot is the PSS group".

    But let's give the floor to pilots, for example - Fighterbomber (https://t.me/s/fighter_bomber):
    1. 'Yes Yes. )
    And before that, our pilots had already been "armed" with the PP-2000. And then they were "armed" with AM-17s to the heap. //// feel sorry for them.
    Now they are armed with this.
    //// that in fact only mannequins are armed at exhibitions.
    And the pilots in the war game both drove with Ksenia and drive. Well, those who could reach it of course.
    "
    2. ' If he is in the NAZ cup, then this is sabotage and treason. For the AKS-74U available in NAZ right now is better than any PP in all basic parameters. For, to the existing Ksenia on the pilot, you can easily place both BC and PBBS. "

    You can then write:
    1. how did the private Kalashnikov Concern appear in general;
    2. who is Alan Lushnikov "Born on August 10, 1976 in St. Petersburg. In 1998 he graduated from St. Petersburg State University with a degree in jurisprudence." https://roscongress.org/speakers/lushnikov-alan/biography/ ;
    3. why the Kalashnikov (automatic) is being redone for the ....th time and it sells so well - especially for the Moscow Region.
    But as of 25.02.2023/XNUMX/XNUMX, there are more surprising things. As they say, "to whom is the SVO, and to whom is the mother dear."
    1. +3
      25 February 2023 06: 55
      why the Kalashnikov (automatic) is being redone for the fifth time and is selling so well - especially for the Moscow Region.

      The Kalashnikov Concern monopolized the production of small arms. Instead, PPK would have been better off resuming the production of APS, increasing the production of Vintorez and SHAFs ... but this is a Tula plant, at one time the quality of the Tula AKM was better than Izhevsk. It is the Vintorez that is the priority of the Wagnerites. And the pilots would not have abandoned the APS. I'm not talking about the Tula automatic grenade launcher A-91 .:
      1. +5
        25 February 2023 07: 52
        Instead, PPK would be better off resuming the production of APS
        - A pistol is a very difficult thing to shoot. Especially with the "queue" function. Somewhere there are craftsmen who, "by hand", can fit the APS queue into the target's size (at least 10 m), but I can't do it and haven't seen anything like it. And exactly such masters do not become pilots.
        IMHO, Stechkin is a little heavy and pilots need something simpler to use, like Glock17 with optics and the ability to install a silencer.

        increased the output of Vintorez and SHAFTS
        this is a "niche" weapon (for example, IMHO, shoot sentries at night), the main problem is the "direct shot range", which in any case, due to the "subsonic bullet, large and heavy", will be worse than even the AK47.

        And the pilots would not have abandoned the APS
        as a weapon that is constantly "on the body", and not "in the NAZ cup" - yes. As a primary weapon, it's not very good. Once again: you need an intermediate cartridge, a "bank" - a silencer and optics, IMHO; compactness is also required, and this, IMHO, turns out to be a bullpup.
        Option 1

        https://youtu.be/cbWe1gJVDaA?t=37

        Option 2 (in the mini version):

        https://youtu.be/qpYAtJEJY2Y

        automatic grenade launcher A-91
        yes, I agree, something like the A91 could solve the problem of "weapons of free hands" (pilots, drivers, gunners - according to some estimates, up to a third of any aircraft); at least it's not AK74, for the "hundredth" time - "like new, only now it's black."
        1. -1
          25 February 2023 09: 20
          type Glock17 with optics and the possibility of installing a silencer

          Yeah, compare the 200 meters of the aiming range of the APS with the 50 of the Glock. From the Glock, if only to shoot.
          1. +2
            25 February 2023 13: 07
            Quote: Konnick
            Yeah, compare 200 meters of APS sighting range

            On the Makarov cartridge, yes, 200 meters of aiming range.

            Mortar sight.
            1. +1
              25 February 2023 13: 15
              Quote: Negro
              Mortar sight.

              You can’t shoot from a mortar at 200 m wink
              1. 0
                25 February 2023 15: 48
                You can’t shoot from a mortar at 200 m

                From the company 50-mm, the most massive in the Second World War, it was possible to shoot at 100 meters ....
                1. 0
                  25 February 2023 15: 56
                  Quote: Konnick
                  You can’t shoot from a mortar at 200 m

                  From the company 50-mm, the most massive in the Second World War, it was possible to shoot at 100 meters ....

                  Regularly? It’s just that the maximum lethal range of fragments is officially considered to be 200m, hence the minimum sights.
            2. -1
              25 February 2023 15: 17
              Don't pay attention. There are 99 percent of such "sofa shooters".
          2. +1
            25 February 2023 13: 18
            200 meters sighting range APS
            it was the Soviet government that had such a sense of humor. In principle, on the C96, either a kilometer or 500 m was also drawn on the sight.
            1. +3
              25 February 2023 18: 32
              Quote: Wildcat
              In principle, on the C96, either a kilometer or 500 m was also drawn on the sight.

              I remember, very small, I determined the maximum speed of the car at the last mark on the speedometer (I learned to count early). The field had a "maximum speed" of 180 km/h. I had a lot of respect for this car.
              1. +1
                25 February 2023 19: 16
                The field had a "maximum speed" of 180 km/h. I had a lot of respect for this car.


                Hmm, under certain conditions, and 180 km / h is not the limit.
                For example, if you trust this calculator here (https://www.translatorscafe.com/unit-converter/ru-RU/calculator/free-fall/) Niva in 14 seconds. with a little at a distance of 1 km, it can reach speeds of more than 500 km / h! True, the calculator is very conditional request , does not take into account air resistance and in general - this record for Niva will be the last what .

                Something similar can happen for those hoping for a 200 m target range of the APS, IMHO .... recourse
          3. SSA
            0
            26 February 2023 02: 34
            Listen, let the APS stop singing songs of praise! Did you hold it in your hands? He is UNCOMFORTABLE as a pistol, Glock surpasses him in everything !!! Ergonomics, production, weight, wearing comfort, striking properties of the cartridge ... IN EVERYTHING!

            APS loses to any PP in everything, because there is no need to talk about any automatic mode with one hand. Only with an example.
            The military immediately abandoned the APS (and it was made for them), neither in the police, nor in the police, nor in the special forces, was the APS ever used because of the loss to the PM and Cypress.
            Stechkin never considered him the pinnacle of creation, he was given a technical assignment, a pistol with the ability to fire bursts, he did. ALL!
    2. 0
      28 February 2023 11: 20
      Quote: Wildcat
      Many copies have been broken around the topic "what is a weapon for a pilot under an intermediate cartridge is better than a weapon for a pistol cartridge and the best weapon for a pilot is the PSS group".

      He-he-he ... the most interesting thing is that the Kalashnikov also has a new small-sized assault rifle, positioned as a "replacement for Ksenia." An article on it was on VO exactly after the article about PPK-20.
      So, it seems to me that after the fulfillment of the contract for PPK-20 there will be the following approach to the projectile: by popular demand PP will be changed to automatic.
  11. +2
    25 February 2023 06: 40
    Quote: Amateur
    Various types of 9x19 mm cartridges are used.

    Any automatic weapon that uses this Parabellum cartridge is no different from the German MP-38/40 from a tactical point of view, because. the main combat characteristics are determined by the cartridge, and not by the presence of Picatinny rails or the amount of plastic. However!

    Are the accuracy and range ergonomics of any sample under the same cartridge the same? And why all over the world designers come up with different options, don't they idiots?
  12. +1
    25 February 2023 07: 12
    Fuck knows, here you have to ask those who run with him. The firebomber almost swears at him, but if you look closely, then all the flyers in his tape go with APS, and the PP is better than the ersatz-PP, with all my personal love for Stechkin, he is not a submachine gun, and he has shortcomings him decently.
    Another thing is that it’s a no brainer that the PP does not play against a fighter in armor and with Kalash. And moreover, no armor-piercing flyers will be issued to him, this is fantastic.
  13. +2
    25 February 2023 07: 18
    An absolutely unnecessary thing for pilots in a war, the AKS74U, with the same dimensions and weight, is a complete rifle.
  14. +6
    25 February 2023 07: 22
    No matter how much they justify it, I still don’t understand why the pilots and tankers need it and not the good old AKSU.
    1. +3
      25 February 2023 12: 47
      This was discussed at VO more than once. It's all about the ability to use a pair of Lebedev pistol and PPK-20, chambered for 9x19, devices for silent and low-noise shooting.
      And for tankers, PPK-20, in my opinion, was not offered.
      1. 0
        26 February 2023 06: 19
        Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
        It's all about the ability to use a pair of Lebedev pistol and PPK-20, chambered for 9x19, devices for silent and low-noise shooting

        And you missed the part in which the inoperability of PBBS was mentioned. The fact is that 9 * 19 armor-piercing cartridges are supersonic ... And the "suppressor" is perfectly placed on the AKS-74U.
  15. +1
    25 February 2023 09: 05
    however, instead of a gas piston, it has a massive rod that ensures proper weight distribution
    Insanity ... Let them design anew, without a place for a tube and a piston and without a heavy non-working piece of iron.
    Various types of 9x19 mm cartridges are used.
    Why not 9x21 mm? This is not a civilian weapon, where is the guarantee that the enemy will be without armor?
    1. +1
      25 February 2023 12: 51
      Most likely, the 9x21 cartridge will be too powerful for firing with a silent firing device.
      1. 0
        25 February 2023 15: 12
        What's the difference? A subsonic cartridge for almost any system can be made. Heavy bullet, slow speed.
        1. +2
          25 February 2023 16: 50
          Why make a separate subsonic cartridge when you can get by with regular ones? And will you also fill the pistol with a special subsonic one?
          1. 0
            27 February 2023 09: 45
            Then what is easier is a special cartridge than a special machine gun)
            1. 0
              27 February 2023 12: 22
              In this logic, it is high time to make your own 5.7 or grendel or .., only these are problems of completely different scales: introduce some kind of device or change the attitude to the order-production cycle.
            2. -1
              5 March 2023 20: 39
              A special cartridge is an order of magnitude more complicated than a weapon for it.
  16. +3
    25 February 2023 09: 43
    Interestingly, we have our own cartridge - 9x21, which is more powerful than the Luger one. What guided by not taking it?!
    1. -1
      25 February 2023 11: 00
      If the PK-20 has a free shutter, then the shot comes from its open position, the Baryshev assault rifle also shoots from the open shutter, but the cartridge is 5.45x39 there
      1. +1
        25 February 2023 15: 46
        Quote: agond
        If the PK-20 has a free shutter, then the shot comes from its open position

        PPK-20 is essentially "Vmtyaz-SN", and it has shooting from a closed shutter. "SN" is a special purpose, and with a closed shutter it is easier to dampen the sound of a shot ...
    2. +2
      25 February 2023 15: 11
      Unification, however. 9x19 is a powerful enough cartridge for its tasks.
    3. 0
      25 February 2023 16: 53
      The submachine gun SR-9M ("Heather") was created for the cartridge 21X2 long ago, adopted and supplied to law enforcement agencies. good
  17. +1
    25 February 2023 11: 35
    We are waiting for the AM-17 ... And the modified serial RPK-16 ...
  18. +1
    25 February 2023 14: 37
    This is good, welcome news! good Good luck to the designers of the Kalashnikov concern! drinks
  19. 0
    25 February 2023 15: 10
    Well, why is it? Akms of the same size, heavier per kilogram, low noise is provided only by a different cartridge and the same silencer.

    A submachine gun is needed only by special forces, and even then in the immediate vicinity of civilians. In other cases, the ability to break through a bulletproof vest is more important than not to break through a peaceful one.
  20. Eug
    0
    25 February 2023 15: 22
    As for me, changes in the system of small arms are long overdue. I think it’s time to develop an ARMY PP, the main requirement is that when it hits the enemy, if it doesn’t kill, then it contuses so that the enemy is only concerned about his health (even when hit in a bulletproof vest or limb), and this is at a distance of up to 250 m. As for me , 9x19 or even 9x21 for such a PP is frankly weak, 9x39 is redundant, but 9x30 Thunder, already mentioned in the comments, is just that. To reduce the cost and unify production, use the scheme or AK (gas outlet), or PPK (as I understand it, a free shutter, if the Cheetah turned out, then it can be used for 9x30). This is for arming the crews of combat vehicles, pilots, and rear servicemen. And for fighters who are constantly engaged in firefights with the enemy, optimize AKs of all types to increase the muzzle energy of the cartridge and, accordingly, lethal force. What I call "optimization" - change (increase) the length of the barrel and - possibly - change the rifling pitch, I think that an increase in lethal force can still be squeezed out of the 5.45x39 cartridge. Yes, it will be much less convenient to be placed in the BMP-D, less convenient to move around, but if at the same time there is an increase in the lethal range of the shot - I think it's worth it .. however, this is just the opinion of the "jacket" - in our air regiment during my services 87-89 in general, SCSs were ... yes, and PBS will have to be neglected - it’s better, as for me, to take an extra store instead (by weight) ... or a grenade.
    1. +3
      25 February 2023 16: 26
      Artillerymen with 152-mm howitzers with AK behind their backs run. This is wrong, they need to be given pistols, to facilitate military labor, let AKs be folded nearby during work.
      1. +1
        25 February 2023 16: 36
        Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
        Artillerymen with 152-mm howitzers with AK behind their backs run.

        As well as signalmen, rocketmen ...
        1. -1
          25 February 2023 16: 52
          I agree that pistols should be distributed to the maximum number of fighters who are uncomfortable with machine guns. Even drivers, when they change wheels, will come in handy.
          1. +4
            25 February 2023 17: 27
            In the USSR, pilots were armed with AKS74U. which is comparable in size and weight to the PPK-20, but the first has a 5.45x39 cartridge and the second has 9x19 .... so what's the point of replacing?
            1. SSA
              0
              26 February 2023 02: 48
              Weigh the cartridge, shoot from both at least 50-100 meters, feel the recoil, sound, try to get a burst from the AKS-74U, try to hang a silencer on it, etc. .. and you will immediately understand everything.
              I guarantee that you will throw away the AKS-74U
              1. +3
                26 February 2023 06: 21
                Quote: SSA
                Weigh the cartridge, shoot from both at least 50-100 meters, feel the recoil, sound, try to get a burst from the AKS-74U, try to hang a silencer on it, etc. .. and you will immediately understand everything.

                You advise what you have never done, and even in thought experiments...
      2. 0
        5 March 2023 20: 42
        AKs are already close by. In an open box of shells at the entrance of the slot. Artillerymen run with him only in front of the authorities and military correspondents.
  21. 0
    25 February 2023 17: 24
    It would be better if they quickly adopted the AM 17, with the same weight. And if you need a PP for self-defense (artillerymen, air defense officers, etc., those who are not directly on the front line), then SR2M Veresk is better, it is a kilogram lighter.
  22. 0
    25 February 2023 19: 57
    I may be wrong, but why does a pilot need some kind of light submachine gun, and not a machine gun, for self-defense or for getting food in the event of an emergency landing or ejection? After all, against him, most likely, there will be opponents with machine guns. This is first. And secondly, in order to get the beast, a more powerful submachine gun cartridge is much preferable to a pistol one. As, however, and if necessary, protection from a large predator. I do not understand who invented that the pilot needs a weaker weapon. The Syrian experience proves otherwise. There, the Stechkin submachine gun during the well-known incident with our pilot turned out to be useless. Is PPK-20 radically superior to it? I'm sure not. The 9x19 cartridge is more powerful, but not by much, than the 9x18 cartridge. And a longer barrel is not a salvation here either. The MP-40 did not outperform the PPSh-41. And the AK-47 outperforms them both. And AK-74. Why put a pilot in obviously more unfavorable conditions in the event of a battle?
  23. 0
    25 February 2023 20: 27
    Quote: Eug
    As for me, changes in the system of small arms are long overdue. I think it’s time to develop an ARMY PP, the main requirement is that when it hits the enemy, if it doesn’t kill, then it contuses so that the enemy is only concerned about his health (even when hit in a bulletproof vest or limb), and this is at a distance of up to 250 m. As for me , 9x19 or even 9x21 for such a PP is frankly weak, 9x39 is redundant, but 9x30 Thunder, already mentioned in the comments, is just that. To reduce the cost and unify production, use the scheme or AK (gas outlet), or PPK (as I understand it, a free shutter, if the Cheetah turned out, then it can be used for 9x30). This is for arming the crews of combat vehicles, pilots, and rear servicemen. And for fighters who are constantly engaged in firefights with the enemy, optimize AKs of all types to increase the muzzle energy of the cartridge and, accordingly, lethal force. What I call "optimization" - change (increase) the length of the barrel and - possibly - change the rifling pitch, I think that an increase in lethal force can still be squeezed out of the 5.45x39 cartridge. Yes, it will be much less convenient to be placed in the BMP-D, less convenient to move around, but if at the same time there is an increase in the lethal range of the shot - I think it's worth it .. however, this is just the opinion of the "jacket" - in our air regiment during my services 87-89 in general, SCSs were ... yes, and PBS will have to be neglected - it’s better, as for me, to take an extra store instead (by weight) ... or a grenade.

    A pilot chambered for 9x30 ...? Under such barrels, as a rule, more serious shooting training is needed, because the return is higher, and most importantly, why, to engage in a shooting battle with angry infantrymen, especially after ejection, when the spine spilled into shorts? If the regular infantrymen surround him, then he will most likely surrender, the chance of survival is high, but if the Basmachi, then you need to think about fighting or shooting yourself, otherwise they can kill very painfully. Embittered but armed with shotguns, the villagers, however, can be driven away with PP. And for the taiga, jungle, sparsely populated places, a pistol is not enough, you can at least hunt from the PP.
  24. 0
    25 February 2023 20: 30
    Quote: Traveler_2
    I may be wrong, but why does a pilot need some kind of light submachine gun, and not a machine gun, for self-defense or for getting food in the event of an emergency landing or ejection? After all, against him, most likely, there will be opponents with machine guns. This is first. And secondly, in order to get the beast, a more powerful submachine gun cartridge is much preferable to a pistol one. As, however, and if necessary, protection from a large predator. I do not understand who invented that the pilot needs a weaker weapon. The Syrian experience proves otherwise. There, the Stechkin submachine gun during the well-known incident with our pilot turned out to be useless. Is PPK-20 radically superior to it? I'm sure not. The 9x19 cartridge is more powerful, but not by much, than the 9x18 cartridge. And a longer barrel is not a salvation here either. The MP-40 did not outperform the PPSh-41. And the AK-47 outperforms them both. And AK-74. Why put a pilot in obviously more unfavorable conditions in the event of a battle?

    If the PKM pilot had been there, the result would most likely have been the same, but it would be problematic to shoot himself from it.
  25. 0
    25 February 2023 22: 12
    And what is its advantage over "Ksenia"?
    1. SSA
      -1
      26 February 2023 02: 58
      The fact is that the AKS-74U is an under-automatic, from which you still need to try to get to 100 meters.
      And the PPK-20 is a submachine gun at maximum speed.
      1. +3
        26 February 2023 06: 23
        Quote: SSA
        The fact is that the AKS-74U is an under-automatic, from which you still need to try to get to 100 meters.
        And the PPK-20 is a submachine gun at maximum speed.

        You were even too lazy to look at Wiki ...
        1. SSA
          +1
          27 February 2023 14: 24
          And what can Vicki tell me? Can you be more specific? Here's a man, a tanker, rightly said, a "cigarette butt" is not welcome in combat units! And I, as a shooter from the AKS-74U, insist that it’s hard to get a burst of 100 meters from him. Throw is strong.

          AKS-74U at a distance of 20-50 meters, in everything except the penetrating ability of a bullet, loses to PPK-20.
          And at a distance of 300-400, the AK-74 loses in everything except compactness.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. 0
            2 March 2023 03: 29
            What, offended, pressed on the night bosses? laughing

            Quote: SSA
            AKS-74U at a distance of 20-50 meters, in everything except the penetrating ability of a bullet, loses to PPK-20.
            And at 100, and at 150, and at 200 m, 300? A? How is it with losing?

            Quote: SSA
            And at a distance of 300-400, the AK-74 loses in everything except compactness.
            He shot with AKS-U, of course, 300 m, and for AK without optics - the limit.

            Here's a man, a tanker, rightly said, a "cigarette butt" is not welcome in combat units!

            And what kind of tanker writes this? Out of your head tanker?
  26. -1
    26 February 2023 02: 42
    And what advantages will a Kalashoid chambered for a pistol cartridge give to a downed pilot over the owners of normal Kalash and ARok, who are waiting for him on the ground?
    1. SSA
      +2
      26 February 2023 02: 55
      In combined arms combat, against an infantry squad, none. For the pilot, this is the end. If he had at least an AK, at least an M16.
      And if, secretly making his way through enemy territory, he stumbles upon a patrol of two or three people, then he may even be able to put them
  27. +4
    26 February 2023 09: 41
    Hi all. I'm no expert, but common sense says this. The pilot is not an attack aircraft. If he is in a situation of using weapons, then he is in enemy territory. His task is to get out and not to join the battle. If a regular battle has begun, then he is in the minority and nothing will help. Even an electric air gun. So the pilot needs a means of survival and a stealth weapon. Psychological protection, light and with a guarantee of a silencer. For 2-5 days until it comes out. Probably the most.
    1. -1
      26 February 2023 10: 16
      The pilot has a silent weapon, this is logical, but then subsonic speed and a heavy bullet are needed, and a 9x19 cartridge is only enough for a pistol with a silencer. Of course, it makes no sense for the pilot to engage in a "regular battle", his task is to go unnoticed, if this did not work out, then he needs to break away from the capture group while avoiding firefights, this is best done by mining the trail behind him with radio-controlled mines. It turns out that instead of a machine gun it is better to have a pistol with a silencer and a few mines, perhaps even a light silent grenade launcher. if it exists in nature.
      1. 0
        26 February 2023 11: 07
        Quote: agond
        It turns out that instead of a machine gun it is better to have a pistol with a silencer and a few mines, perhaps even a light silent grenade launcher. if it exists in nature.

        If the pilot needs to hold out until the PSS helicopters and fire. support - mines will not help. When operating near the LBS, there are more than such cases.
      2. -1
        26 February 2023 12: 37
        While the pilot is in the field of view of the enemy, he does not need a silent weapon, he is still seen. You need a rapid-fire with a high density of fire - in order to bring down the chase for a while and break away, hiding behind mines on the escape route and thereby slowing down the pursuers.
        If the enemy does not see him, then there is no need to shoot at anyone at all.
        So a silent weapon for a pilot is a maximum silencer for a pistol in NAZ, and even then a crane is arguably overweight, better with a larger cartridge and means of survival in order to generally hide in a far corner and wait for help.
        1. -1
          26 February 2023 14: 58
          Quote from solar
          You need a rapid-fire with a high density of fire - in order to bring down the chase for a while and break away, hiding behind mines on the escape route and thereby slowing down the pursuers.

          I will add that it is also armor-piercing and fairly accurate - the modernized AKS-74u is perfect. As for the mines: it turns out that, apart from the pilot’s shooting, the basics of mining will have to be done, because simply throwing behind your back on the run will not work.
  28. 0
    26 February 2023 10: 26
    A question for connoisseurs, why are PPs not made for other popular and powerful cartridges: 7,72x25 and 9x21?
  29. -1
    26 February 2023 12: 32
    And why is this PP needed in the army?
    For the self-defense of pilots? So it has the weight and size indicators of the AKS-74U - the same 2,7 kg, and almost the same length when folded.
    At the same time, the AKS-74U has a much more powerful cartridge.
    PP chambered for 9 * 19 would make some sense if it were compact and lightweight, PP chambered for small-caliber powerful self-defense cartridges such as HK MP7 or FN P90 also make some sense, there are pros and cons, but this one is why ? In many respects, it loses to the AKS-74U and has no advantages.
    1. -3
      26 February 2023 13: 18
      Probably, the Soviet silent 30mm grenade launcher 6G16 could come in handy for the pilot, the mass without special cartridges and mines is only 1.7kg, the aiming range is 100-150m, although grenade launchers cannot be used separately from machine guns.
  30. 0
    26 February 2023 14: 52
    I wonder why the Kedr-Para project did not take off under 9x19 2011 with a silencer, Picatinny rails?
  31. -2
    27 February 2023 02: 38
    The mess in the comments is depressing, which reflects a misunderstanding of what, why and how the choice is made. I do not think that the forum participants are far from the topic so much that they do not understand banal things, but the presented nomenclature and the behavior of manufacturers cause this feeling of incoherent PR fuss.
    Regarding the weapons of the flyers, kmk, you need to think separately and not interfere with the specifics of gunners or signalmen (whoever they just don’t drag in to complete the coverage of a muddy idea). It seems to me that survival weapons should take into account the theater of operations. It may seem "too civil" to give the choice to the unit commander, but the kmc "no fools" - people really know better than the circumstances.
  32. +1
    27 February 2023 02: 48
    The gentlemen above are looking for some ingenious reasons of an okototactical nature, but one must look from the angle from which the situevina is looked at by the greedy Kalashnikov management, who do not smell gunpowder and need to promote their new zhrenovina using their connections in mo. And the fact that the guys who were deprived of their normal weapons will be put down with their fart in their hands, the gentlemen of the managers do not care - they themselves only make money on their own and send money to the kids over the hill.
  33. 0
    27 February 2023 11: 51
    And is the PP-2000 in service ??? not a good weapon Regarding the weapon in question, I can only add that Kalashnikov works on the same principle as the BMW, that is: the same sausage of different sizes. laughing
  34. -1
    27 February 2023 18: 06
    In a word, expensive police weapons. Then better or at least not worse than PPS
    under 7,62 * 25 and cheaper at times
  35. 0
    28 February 2023 11: 00
    What is there to discuss? Customers and developers of such weapons should argue. There are always many nuances that are unknown to an outsider's eye. The war will put everything in its place, it’s more expensive to lie there. Life on the line.
  36. +1
    28 February 2023 12: 28
    And this is at a time when special forces around the world are abandoning submachine guns and switching to compact assault rifles. Those. this PP is hardly needed by special forces, tk. SIBZ is sold almost in a household store and climb on criminals in armor, having a submachine gun - well, that's it. Why do pilots need it? Each downed pilot abruptly turns into REMBU and begins to mow down the search parties who really want his blood or captivity? If you run into infantry, consider it necessary to drain the water, press it with fire into a couple of barrels (and the enemy may also have a machine gun) and where will you rush? Only a "Hyundai Hoch" or a bullet / grenade for yourself. About the impossibility of installing PBS-s on the AKS-74U: this is not a problem of an automatic machine, but of industry, for some reason the Americans put anything and tuning Kalashmats there from the "build your own blaster" category, as for AR-ok - there is everything and a little more. It would be good for the Kalashinkov concern to learn, and not to drive another cut-project. Make "Ksyuha" a normal folding adjustable butt, a normal DTK with a thread for a quick-detachable PBS and a receiver cover like "Anti-aircraft gun" releases, so that RedDot can put it all in the troops, supply magazines with plastic lungs, from the same AK-12 ... But no, they will cut and plan another "analogue" clone of the MP-5, once again raping the machine gun of Mikhail Timofeevich (God rest his peace).
    1. 0
      1 March 2023 08: 49
      The very phrase "automatic for pilots" means that the weapon is intended for a shootout of one person with a capture group (so that the pilot does not surrender and die in an unequal battle), and in order to fill up a random single witness, an automatic machine is not needed, a pistol with a silencer will do. The pilot's task is to quickly and quietly leave the crash site, of course, for fast movement, a minimum weight of wearable equipment is required, and it is probably better to have an observation device (s) instead of a machine gun to avoid unnecessary meetings.
  37. 0
    1 March 2023 09: 26
    Quote: agond
    The very phrase "automatic for pilots" means that the weapon is intended for a shootout of one person with a capture group (so that the pilot does not surrender and die in an unequal battle), and in order to fill up a random single witness, an automatic machine is not needed, a pistol with a silencer will do. The pilot's task is to quickly and quietly leave the crash site, of course, for fast movement, a minimum weight of wearable equipment is required, and it is probably better to have an observation device (s) instead of a machine gun to avoid unnecessary meetings.

    That's what I'm talking about. The pilot does not need a machine gun. At all. No. And the special forces need a short SHV, on which PBS, sights and laser sights are easily mounted.
  38. +1
    1 March 2023 10: 09
    I own the civilian version (the barrel is longer, single fire) - for tactical shooting at 100 - 150, even 200 m - very good. Wide freedom for tuning and body kit.

    But the design is really a dense past century.
    The bar for sights on the hinged cover of the receiver is a dubious pleasure; after each cleaning, the sighting of the same collimator must be checked (well, at least the cover is not just removable). And what is the cost of a rivet on the cover of the receiver to reduce the gap between the cover and the bolt carrier to reduce its backlash? And the backlash is decent (the mass of the shutter is large), it does not affect accuracy so much when firing single shots (although it already affects it with tempo shooting), but with automatic shooting? A rivet to solve a problem, to save the receiver from cracks, well .... not the 21st century at all. The overall build quality also leaves something to be desired. In my opinion, this is still a police weapon, not a combat one.
  39. +1
    1 March 2023 11: 49
    This is all good, but as for me, no small arms will significantly improve our position in the NWO. Therefore, it is probably better to spend money on artillery and air defense. I'm still waiting, waiting for the derivation of air defense to appear in hostilities.
  40. +1
    4 March 2023 21: 32
    And here, without a diopter, nowhere) ... Biathletes entrenched themselves in the Kalashnikov. Well, we'll see. PPSh also had an effective range of 200 m (100 and 200 with a folding whole), but it was intended for combat.
  41. +2
    5 March 2023 12: 21
    Hmm, in 2023 a submachine gun with automatics operating on the principle of a free shutter is sad in itself, but also in dimensions and weight close to AK - this is already a diagnosis.
    1. 0
      1 May 2023 17: 04
      And indeed, short-stroke automatics for PP seem to be better. That is, take any powerful pistol as a base. And in the dimensions of the software, you can also use a hydraulic damper.
  42. 0
    6 March 2023 21: 34
    I actually have a question ... the butt "leans" to the right, like the German G-36, but there it does not interfere with the shooting. And what about the Kalashnikov product? And why ... at the indicated firing distance, SHOULD THE diopter sight be put in? And this is after all the complaints and discontent "from the trenches"?
  43. 0
    22 March 2023 16: 00
    So they will rise up in a victorious impulse
    Hundreds of thousands of steel trunks
    And Parabellum cartridges
    Defeat all our enemies!
  44. 0
    8 May 2023 09: 50
    People, think about it, this is a PP weapon for cops, all 9 ki and more, for the army only Ak-12, special forces Ak-15, for pilots, tankers, artillery, etc. - Ak-105! Well, how much can you cut the budget for nothing!
    1. 0
      7 March 2024 10: 40
      So what the hell even for the cops? Why is “Ksyukha” worse?
  45. 0
    20 May 2023 16: 46
    In caliber 9x21 with an armor-piercing cartridge like under the "Gyurza" it is very interesting for close combat.
  46. The comment was deleted.