The very latest KF51 Panther tank: they didn’t sell it to their own - we’ll give it to Ukraine

The very latest KF51 Panther tank: they didn’t sell it to their own - we’ll give it to Ukraine

There is such a popular expression: “To whom is war, and to whom is mother dear”, which vividly characterizes one of the most important details of any military conflict - business and huge money. The special military operation in Ukraine is a vivid example in this regard: it is probably impossible to count how much profit Western corporations have that are engaged in the restoration and modernization of equipment for Kyiv.

However, here the German Rheinmetall, perhaps, stood out more than the others. It's about the latest tanks KF51 Panther, the possibility of supplying which to Ukraine is being considered by the German government.

Powerful weaponthat could change the course of the conflict? Maybe. But let's talk about something else - the uncertainty in terms of the adoption of the tank by Germany is forcing the concern to look for new markets, among which Kyiv looks like the most convenient buyer.

The concept of the tank seems to be interesting

In general, of course, marketers from Rheinmetall know their business, and they know it perfectly well. An example of this is the KF51 Panther, which, without any exaggeration, has become one of the most famous tank building innovations of recent years. However, there could be no other way: beautiful advertising on social networks and a pompous presentation at the international arms exhibition Eurosatory-2022 in Paris contributed to this in many ways.

Needless to say, even if our media, full of derogatory headlines about Western weapons against the backdrop of a special military operation, approached the German product with some caution, paying more attention to its alleged characteristics, and not how bad it is. By the way, we also wrote about this tank - here here You can read more if you are interested in some details.

But advertising is advertising, and at first glance the car really came out interesting. In it, the gentlemen from Rheinmetall tried to implement what had been ripe for a long time, although more modern trends were not deprived of attention. Moreover, it is clear that they decided not just to go with the trump cards, but literally rush to the attack.

Have the 120 mm classic Western guns already exhausted their potential, and the shells have reached the limit of their power? Is it difficult to decide on a radical increase in caliber? Please, here is an “intermediate caliber” in the face of a 130-mm smoothbore gun - the power of ammunition is obvious, but without “overpayments” in the form of a completely disproportionately increased mass of the swinging part and large-scale changes in the design of the combat vehicle. An automatic loader instead of a human loader is attached.

Need increased situational awareness of the crew on the battlefield? And this is fully implemented in the Panther: tankers have at their disposal both stationary all-round cameras of the “transparent armor” type, and two small-sized quadrocopters that will show in real time what is happening around the tank and in general on the ground.

Reconnaissance drone "Panther"
Reconnaissance drone "Panther"

The Panther's protection is also conditionally all-round: passive classic armor, dynamic protection - most likely of a non-explosive type - and the Advanced Modular Armor Protection (AMAP) active countermeasure system, which can neutralize projectiles such as guided missiles and grenades. As for the upper hemisphere, there are launchers with aerosol grenades and infrared / ultraviolet sensors to detect missiles attacking the roof, as well as a remote-controlled machine gun mount that can be used to combat drones.

Well, Rheinmetall did not forget about kamikaze drones either, fitting on the roof of the Panther a launcher for four HERO-120 loitering ammunition with a flight range of up to 40 kilometers. Any member of the crew can control them - by the way, it still consists of four people, however, this time without a loader, and the commander of a tank unit or operator of those same drones-kamikaze, located next to the driver in front of the car body.
And all this beauty is equipped with new means of communication, and is also equipped with a data exchange bus according to the NGVA (NATO Generic Vehicle Architecture) standard, through which all tank systems are controlled by a single on-board computer.

Loitering ammunition HERO-130
Loitering ammunition HERO-120

Why not candy? True, not everyone in Germany reacted to it with trepidation: in many ways, the candy was old, but with a new wrapper.

The Bundeswehr doesn't really need

All this hype around the appearance of a new German tank in the face of the Panther was accompanied by rather loud statements from Rheinmetall, which carried the rhetoric that is already typical of today. In general, it can be described as follows: the Russians have a lot of modern tanks, and the T-14 Armata is also on the way, so we will have nothing to answer. Well, it is logical that the Panther should become this very answer to the Russian T-14, and nothing else.

But such vivid epithets did not affect everyone.

Many military experts, including Western ones, began to lean towards the obvious conclusion that the new tank is not at all like a revolutionary solution and is simply a deep modernization of the Leopard-2 already in service, and not the latest series, since the hull and chassis were used from the "Leopard-2A4" of the 80s. It’s hard to disagree with this: they simply tried to fit into the car everything that could at least somehow interest the buyer.

Indeed, the chassis itself, such a strange combination of drones on the tank, the presence of a fourth crew member with dubious functionality, as well as the questionable mass of the vehicle of 59 tons, while maintaining, in general, similar dimensions to the Leopard-2, indicate that "Panther" is only a technology demonstrator, and even the improvement of its armor was not engaged. The full development of this concept, according to various estimates and data from the same Rheinmetall, takes a long time. So far, this is just an old tank, hung with brightly sparkling tinsel, some of which, in fact, may turn out to be absolutely useless after appropriate testing and evaluation by the users themselves.

However, there would have to deal with the base chassis itself. Even if it is replaced by that of the Leopard-2A7, at least in terms of security, its resource, considering the prospect, has already been practically exhausted. If there is enough armor today, then tomorrow it may already be insufficient.

But the interest of Rheinmetall is quite understandable: Germany, together with France, has been conducting research and producing some scientific developments for the creation of a new single European tank under the MGCS program (the main ground combat system) for several years now. This concern also participated in this project, but its proposals, to put it mildly, were ultimately simply rejected.

That machine, which was shown at the exhibition under the name KF51 Panther, became a kind of competitor to the promising single European tank. A competitor that has a near-zero chance of being in production for the needs of the Bundeswehr.

Many German media in June 2022, when the Eurosatory arms exhibition was held, frankly wrote that Rheinmetall simply wants to disrupt the European tank project and grab a piece of a very fat pie in the face of part of Germany's 100 billion investment in its defense industry.

So until it comes out. The cart with the Panther is still there, and its claims to be a single tank are still something from the realm of fantasy. At the official level, they even stopped talking about him. But this is not surprising: when the government is serious about acquiring a completely new tank and vehicles based on it, buying an old one, but “on steroids”, looks stupid.

They refuse to take their own - you can sell Ukraine

Now it is customary to talk about the general anti-Russian hysteria in the West, but it seems that it is far from being ideological for everyone. Many companies are quietly trying, and quite successfully, to make money on this. And Rheinmetall, with its really aggressive business policy, is no exception in this case.

We all remember history almost a year ago, when the former Ukrainian ambassador to Germany, Melnyk, tearfully begged for tanks from the then-doubting German government. But these were only official requests, but unofficially, Rheinmetall had already managed to put out a commercial offer to the ambassador with all the associated costs for crew training, technical documentation, and so on. True, at that time it was only about "Leopards-1", the idea of ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXbtransferring which the chancellor nevertheless rejected.

Now the conversation has already gone about the "Panthers". Moreover, both the Ukrainian side and the leadership of Rheinmetall announced this. The concern hopes that the German government will still issue an export permit for the transfer of these machines to the Armed Forces of Ukraine, which, if approved, could begin in a year and a half.

Here it remains only to congratulate the head of the Papperger concern - the attempt to make money turned out to be interesting. Their own in the person of the Bundeswehr look at this tank with obvious distrust, although it would be more appropriate to say that they don’t look at all yet. But you can sell this “unfinished” in the version that was at the exhibition, after all, and not only to your own, since Ukraine in this regard looks like a convenient buyer: Kiev, in general, doesn’t care what cars will be transferred. The main thing is to get bigger and better. The Europeans will still pay.

It is noteworthy that the interest of the Rheinmetall concern in selling the Panther to a warring country clearly illustrates the fact that it is not considered promising for Germany. Otherwise, there is absolutely no logic in transferring tanks to Ukraine, which are still in development and supposedly designed to replace Leopards-2.

Nevertheless, if Scholz still gives the go-ahead for the delivery of the Panther to Ukraine, Rheinmetall will be able to kill two birds with one stone.

Firstly, the car can confirm its export potential, but, of course, not as a revolutionary solution. In the future, the Panther may become more than just an independent tank that can be put on the market and look for potential buyers. It can also be suitable for the role of deep modernization of Leopards-2 in one form or another. Especially those countries where they already exist.

The second plus is inextricably linked with the first. The order for the delivery of Panthers to Ukraine will allow modernizing and fully loading Rheinmetall production lines both in Germany itself and at the group's plant under construction in Hungary. Considering that in this case the government will pay all the costs, the tank manufacturer will receive a huge financial gain - there will be practically no need to invest in production.

But all this, as they say, is written on the water with a pitchfork. The German government knows how to count money very well, and the removal from storage, restoration and modernization of Leopards-2 for Ukraine is much cheaper than if they were turned into Panthers or built from scratch.
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  1. -1
    18 February 2023 04: 20
    No one will supply them to Ukraine in the short term. And if they put it in 20 years, then Ukraine will no longer exist as a state
    1. -15
      18 February 2023 09: 25
      How did you famously remove Ukraine from the political map of the world? Did you come up with it yourself, or did someone suggest it?
      And who, besides the Ukrainian state, will settle accounts with lenders, given that the Ukrainian state has already collected hundreds (if not thousands) of billions of dollars in loans - this is how many hundreds of years the skakuas have been plowing their black soil and selling good wheat for pasta to Italians, Spaniards and Arabs?
      And on the other hand, how will the skakuas pay off Russia for the Donbass urban landscape they destroyed - after all, restoring this also costs trillions of rubles?
      Even if these madmen turn out to be a Russian mandated territory (protectorate), you still have to pay for the transformation of Donbass into ruins.
      1. +6
        18 February 2023 16: 22
        I didn’t understand a little what skakuas are, but I suppose they are those who yell: “Whoever doesn’t jump is that Muscovite!”
        But I agree with the main message: no one will pay, from the word "absolutely". It's just that Ukraine should not have a legal successor. So it's time for creditors to think about writing off Ukrainian debts as losses.
        And the last. For the destroyed Russian cities and villages, suppliers of HIMARS and 155mm caliber shells must be made to pay.
        1. -8
          19 February 2023 12: 26
          ... the Russian Federation will pay for everything, after the defeat !!!)))
          1. +1
            19 February 2023 19: 24
            Adik thought the same, only then he shot himself ...
          2. -1
            22 February 2023 08: 14
            Banderlozhka you see the site mixed up with grief :))
          3. 0
            12 August 2023 22: 22
            The lad is dozing by the road, the lad is dreaming of victory.)))))
        2. 0
          31 March 2023 20: 22
          They now have a new slogan - 'The fat was dropped, the heroes of the fat!!!' (hungry or what?)
      2. -2
        23 February 2023 21: 51
        And who, besides the Ukrainian state, will settle accounts with lenders, given that the Ukrainian state has already collected hundreds (if not thousands) of billions of dollars in loans

        Lenders, as the losing side, will have to pay us off and, in addition to any other reparations, they will also restore the territories of the former Ukraine (former Ukraine)
      3. 0
        24 February 2023 08: 07
        These are voluntary donations of the so-called coalition, no one pays for them. Yes, and under other circumstances, with the victory of Russia, you will still have to pay compensation for the lives of the fighters, MTS, and simply for damage, including sanctions. This is my opinion and it may differ from yours.
    2. -18
      18 February 2023 12: 34
      The bible says that one power will dominate the rest of the world. Everything goes towards it. And it looks like it will be Ukraine.

      At the end of time, only one power will be above all others, like a shepherd over sheep.
      1. -1
        20 February 2023 22: 30
        At the end of time, it’s like, the end of the world or something, in the next world the dominants are completely different, and so, in 20 years China will dominate, the country of production and technology
    3. +4
      18 February 2023 19: 50
      Quote: aiden
      No one will supply them to Ukraine in the short term.

      What do you mean? There is no tank yet. The fact that something was shown at the exhibition is not yet a tank, but a slightly working one, but a model.
      1. 0
        19 February 2023 05: 12
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        What do you mean? There is no tank yet.

        Do the unfinished Germans have a "Maus"? Let him be sent to Ukraine. We need scrap metal. hi
        1. 0
          19 February 2023 09: 52
          Quote: fif21

          Do the unfinished Germans have a "Maus"? Let him be sent to Ukraine. We need scrap metal.

          I don't mind if you personally send it to scrap. And if not, then it is better that not only the panther, but also the leopard-1 does not appear on the outskirts.
        2. -2
          19 February 2023 12: 24
          Russia has enough scrap metal! ... most of the tanks in the Russian Federation are old scrap metal !!!)))))
    4. +2
      19 February 2023 13: 04
      No one will supply them to Ukraine in the short term.

      Why not, you are always welcome to test the prototype in combat conditions
    5. 0
      20 February 2023 22: 21
      Well, if you personally participate in a special operation, then yes, we will defeat everyone
  2. +8
    18 February 2023 04: 31
    Hmm. touching concern for the dead man .. I'm not talking about a tank, but about Ukraine love
    1. +10
      18 February 2023 06: 09
      Panther: we didn’t sell our own - we’ll give it to Ukraine
      Leopard, Panther, we are waiting for the appearance of the Tigers! recourse
      1. +5
        18 February 2023 08: 39
        Quote from Uncle Lee
        Panther: we didn’t sell our own - we’ll give it to Ukraine
        Leopard, Panther, we are waiting for the appearance of the Tigers!

        Germany will be able to transfer tanks to Ukraine any and "Leorpards" of all models and the super-expensive "Panther" (they don't want to force). Only, in addition to tanks, it is necessary to transfer the repair base, which is more expensive and more cumbersome than the tank itself, and it should not be far from the LBS, and the preparation of repair teams is no less ticklish than managing these colossus with all sorts of "bells and whistles" is not an easy task. And that they will not only receive combat damage, but will also constantly break down. Service and spare parts are also of great importance, not forgetting that these service stations will be hunted by Russian drones and videoconferencing.
        1. -5
          18 February 2023 09: 42
          And it's hard to imagine how the Russian military-industrial complex will hunt for them!
          But here, after all, if equipment is transferred, it will go directly to the bases of NATO countries and it will fall into fairly competent hands, equipped with good heads (even two or three dozen kilometers from the battlefield).
          So already the first Panther battalion, which left the factory territory and was led by completely non-Galician tractor drivers (and God forbid, who got into battles against our Army), will deserve a festive salute with Iskanders, X101 and Calibers over the areas of the Rheinmetall plant, located in the glorious medieval German university city of Düsseldorf.
        2. 0
          20 February 2023 22: 39
          Yes, yes, fools are sitting in NATO headquarters, that we can’t defeat these fools in any way. No need to say gop, last year they wanted to throw the same hats, yeah, they ran, their heels were already sparkling. And in April tanks will come to Ukraine, so let's see who is worth what, there will be a battle for Kyiv or for Moscow.
    2. +1
      21 February 2023 09: 59
      Quote: Alexey Alekseev_5
      Hmm. touching concern for the dead man .. I'm not talking about a tank, but about Ukraine love

      It seems to me that you bury her early. It’s not for nothing that all these slow-movies are on the LBS, it’s not without reason that they don’t give Prigozhin ammunition for artillery, it’s not for nothing that the bridges across the Dnieper and the Beskid tunnel are still alive. It is not without reason that by de-energizing schools, hospitals, kindergartens, we cause, unnecessary to us, the hatred of the common people. One thing. when people from the outskirts perish at the front, and it is quite another thing when their children and sick old people are left without light and water.
      Yes, all we need is a win. Victory over the army of the Outskirts and its power, but not over children and the elderly. We will work with them after the victory, according to Soviet educational programs. I will remind the uryakalki who will now downvote me the words of I.V. Stalin - "Hitlers come and go, but the German people remain."
  3. +11
    18 February 2023 04: 36
    Why write such articles about prototypes? Today, these prototypes are a wagon and a small cart, in order to be put into production, it will be necessary to establish production, logistics, sea trials, then light military operations, in any case, there will be childhood illnesses. But if we assume that they will assemble 20 pieces at once and send them to Ukraine, then most likely 5 will not start, 5 will stand on the front end on the way, another 5 will be dragged back due to electronic glitches, 2-3 will simply be abandoned for other reasons, at best case, the remainder will be returned to Germany to collect information and polish with a file, not to mention the fact that in a month in the Russian Federation the abandoned will be dismantled and fired upon, and Armata will go to re-equip the 152mm cannon.
    1. +6
      18 February 2023 16: 51
      I agree, what kind of "stupid person" will supply concepts to third countries? We run around with armata like a baby, God forbid they kill or even worse capture, here it goes around the rear. Americans in general from their old Abrams going to Ukraine Uranium plates they also pull out the extra electronics, although I’m sure all the parameters of this armor and El have long been known to anyone. And here is the newest prototype !!!! Just a PR from rain metal no more hi
    2. -1
      20 February 2023 22: 45
      Yes, they will re-equip 152 guns and it will go into a series in 20 years. At least re-equip, if there is no normal engine for Armata and there are no assembly lines, for that there are parades every year and even the cathedral was built
  4. +7
    18 February 2023 04: 46
    Kyiv, in general, does not care what cars will be transferred. The main thing is to get bigger and better.

    Why does Kiev need more tanks, if the West has publicly announced that, on the one hand, Russia has halved its tanks in a year, while Ukraine, on the contrary, has increased its number of tanks in a year.
    It follows from the words of the West that the Armed Forces of Ukraine do not need tanks.
    1. +2
      18 February 2023 15: 01
      Quote: Comrade
      Why does Kyiv need more tanks
      Found the correct answer online
      Remember the Ukrainian tanker! The "leopard" tank is not only 1200 liters of diesel fuel, but also 50 kg of metal! Rent it for 000 hryvnia and get 8!
  5. -2
    18 February 2023 05: 08
    My friends, I have never been a tanker, but I have heard a little. And that's what confuses me in this tank - lure, or as our enemies say, shot trap (a trap for shells) in this tank is the MOST OUTSTANDING. With such a lure, even an ordinary kinetic blank will either jam or tear off the tower to the boars. And if an ATGM or a serious projectile arrives, then the polar fox will dance on this Chunga-Changu tank. In short, the tank is very beautiful - like from Japanese cartoons, but the practical Germans apparently decided to test it in a real battle with crews that are not a pity. And now it seems to me that these will be very short-lived tanks, since the maximum vulnerability of this hut is in the frontal projection. So everything is going according to plan... bully
    1. old
      18 February 2023 06: 54
      And if an ATGM or a serious projectile arrives, then the polar fox will dance on this Chunga-Changu tank.

      There is also “transparent armor” .. Biathlon can be won easily. One charge of shrapnel flew in - and the tank was blind ..
      1. +2
        18 February 2023 15: 56
        One charge of shrapnel flew in - and the tank was blind ..
        All this fancy "hanging" will be demolished in the first battle .....
        1. +7
          18 February 2023 16: 07
          the meaning of the hitch is to destroy the enemy earlier ... and this usually works. In the Iraqi desert, something didn’t take down the T-72 from the abrams on a hang .. So it’s necessary to be more critical
      2. +1
        19 February 2023 07: 21
        Machine gun 12,7 cope no worse than a shell with shrapnel
  6. +7
    18 February 2023 05: 20
    A dozen copies on the outskirts and now the "panther" is already a tank tested in combat conditions .. A very high-quality advertising move
    1. -11
      18 February 2023 09: 54
      Excuse me, do you have the education of a manager, a lawyer, some other kind of threshing floor or a military man?
      1. +4
        18 February 2023 12: 42
        Neither!!!! I’m a sofa .. There’s no need for a specialist here, just sanity - a tank run-in on the outskirts, which hasn’t even reached fire contact, will begin to be quoted on a par with a leopard
  7. -3
    18 February 2023 06: 00
    A powerful weapon that can change the course of a conflict? Maybe.

    A tank is not one of those weapons... No.
    A high-precision missile with something "burning out", "incinerating", "destroying" within a radius of 100 meters, flying at 100-200 km with an accuracy of ± 0,3 m - perhaps ... Yes
    Hypersonic missiles in huge numbers - can ... Yes
    Tank? recourse No.
    1. 0
      18 February 2023 06: 10
      For tanks, we came up with:

      This can change the tactics of warfare in terms of defense against enemy tanks ...
      1. old
        18 February 2023 06: 45
        It is already in series and tested in Ukraine. Very bad reviews ... from the enemy)
    2. -3
      18 February 2023 10: 18
      Well, until the missiles changed the course of the conflict. As are the tanks. Aviation could and can change the course of the conflict. But alas...
      1. 0
        18 February 2023 10: 52
        Quote from: Derbes19
        Well, until the missiles changed the course of the conflict.

        For whom I wrote:
        Quote: ROSS 42
        Hypersonic missiles in huge numbers - can...

        How many rockets are used daily? Now, when the account goes to several units, you will see everything ...
        We have produced 12 units of "Coalitions of the SV" (for the parade of 2015) ... Where, in what specific direction was it used and what did its use show? It's time to work out these millions of incomes of leaders in the military-industrial complex. what a mess, after all. "Analogues in the world are not", and the results - with Gulkin's nose!
        1. -1
          18 February 2023 11: 27
          Did you write about hypersonic ones because the word "hypersonic" sounds cool or do they have a fundamental advantage over winged subsonic ones in this conflict? Even cruise missiles are too expensive. No country will have enough money to win a war with missiles alone. Moreover, missiles are applicable only to stationary targets. No, only aviation can solve the problem.
      2. +1
        18 February 2023 12: 50
        This conflict between the two uniformly armed armies unexpectedly crossed out military doctrines all major academies, including ours No one seriously expected that the Russian army would climb to take the cities of the fortress and begin to hammer into the forehead of the outskirts of the UOV.
        1. 0
          19 February 2023 21: 27
          This war is waged by the Russian army contrary to all doctrines and charters. In the history of WW 1 and 2, there were no cases when cities / fortresses set up for resistance were taken head-on. But there are examples of such months-long assaults ending in failure.
        2. 0
          21 February 2023 18: 03
          how is it possible to "hit on the forehead" and at the same time incur minimal losses?
          1. 0
            23 February 2023 04: 18
            Usually - according to Okrainsky sources - an average of 20,000 shells and missiles per day
      3. Alf
        18 February 2023 18: 04
        Quote from: Derbes19
        Well, until the missiles changed the course of the conflict. As are the tanks. Aviation could and can change the course of the conflict. But alas...

        Usually the point is put by the infantry. It is possible to raze everything on enemy territory with guns, rockets and planes to the ground and work it into rubble, but until the boot of a simple private is put on this land, the course of the war will not change.
        1. +1
          19 February 2023 21: 34
          If everything is razed to the ground and worked into rubble, then the conflict will essentially (in the hot phase) end and turn into a sluggish guerrilla war. The military confrontation between the armies will end here. There will be no more shelling of Donbass or Belgorod. It will not be possible to provide supply / replenishment of scattered enemy groupings - and if necessary, it will be much easier for the infantry to take this or that city.

          The problem is that this does not work with an equal opponent.
  8. +3
    18 February 2023 06: 12
    The dexterity lies in the fact that they took an existing excellent leopard tank, corrected the appearance a little, stuffed it with electronics and drones - and you're done! The only real novelty is the automatic loader. This is reminiscent of the latest models of Mercedes and BMW, when a slightly updated body was hung on the "old" platform, but 20 "touchscreen monitors were placed inside (nothing new, but the buyer is led to bright pictures). With this tank, a similar situation, this is a great move for rheinmetal - and the only thing that can stop the successful development of this project is that it is a competitor to the American Abrams!
    1. old
      18 February 2023 06: 47
      he is a competitor to the American Abrams!

      After the fields are littered with burnt cats, Abrams will have no competitors.
      1. +7
        18 February 2023 10: 21
        "Do not brag about going to the army, brag about going with the army." That's when the fields are littered with cats, then it will be possible to talk about it.
      2. -6
        18 February 2023 10: 22
        Cats will be roasted just on the fires collected from burning Abrams - or you don’t respect our gunners: they have enough combat skills for more than one NAT
        1. +2
          18 February 2023 11: 38
          I really hope that things will not come to the point that our artillerymen will have to go one on one with NATO armored vehicles.
    2. +3
      18 February 2023 08: 27
      The most up-to-date and ready-to-series "new" tank is the EMBT.
      Hull from Leopard 2, heavily redesigned turret from Leclerc.
      Immediately the ability to put a 120 mm or 140 mm gun, tested on Leclerc, respectively, under 130 mm needs to be completed. It costs AZ, but added 4 crew members, an operator of on-board systems (UAVs, turrets with a 30mm cannon, and other reconnaissance equipment). KAZ naturally exists. "Transparent Armor" too.
      Extremely high firepower.
      Main caliber - 120/140 mm gun
      Optional - 30mm autocannon on separate turret
      Coaxial with the main gun 12,7 mm machine gun
      Coaxial 7,62 mm machine gun with a panoramic sight.
      Three pairs of eyes can conduct reconnaissance and independently fire.
      Almost everything is in mass production, only modernization is needed.
      The only thing you need to add drones, for example, a couple of launchers a la Switchblade.
      1. 0
        19 February 2023 02: 45
        To the production car there is the same, if not a large distance, that of the "Panther".
      2. -1
        19 February 2023 21: 38
        So they are trying to push / promote each of their projects. And if one of them is financed and put into production (even if under the slogan for Ukraine, but without transferring tanks to it), then the chances of the rest for a backup tank will decrease.
    3. -1
      18 February 2023 15: 11
      Quote: Vladimir80
      The only real novelty is the automatic loader.

      130 mm cannon, transparent armor, reconnaissance drones, kamikaze guided drones, separate drone operator. Did you notice only one machine gun? In a real battle, such a tank will not leave even the armata any chance.
  9. +1
    18 February 2023 06: 36
    tanks KF51 Panther, the possibility of supplying which to Ukraine is being considered by the German government
    Strange situation. The Bundeswehr does not need this tank, and the manufacturer expresses a desire to supply Ukraine. And who will pay for the banquet, Ukraine? There are big doubts, as well as that even in the event of delivery, Rheinmetall will "promote" its new tank on the battlefield.
    1. old
      18 February 2023 06: 49
      And who will pay for the banquet, Ukraine?

      The burghers will pay for the banquet. With or without desire, it doesn't matter.
      1. -3
        18 February 2023 10: 09
        Partially Ukraine will pay, partly NATO countries, which will transfer Panthers to skakuas on orders from the European Parliament, it is clear that the EU will try to bend Russia through the UN - but this is how it will turn out (and the less chance they will have, the more "XNUMX" crew members, who do not have Ukrainian citizenship).
        1. +1
          18 February 2023 10: 27
          For some reason, it seems that there is nothing to pay the skakuas. They will beg for nothing. And they'll beg. And the liverwurst will pay. There will be R&D on the battlefield.
    2. 0
      18 February 2023 08: 33
      They did an upgrade for the Challenger, with a 130mm gun. The redesigned turret was used for the Leopard 2A4, which can become an upgrade option.
    3. 0
      19 February 2023 02: 47
      Germany has already paid for Ukraine for IRISs, which are not supplied to the German army itself. Here the problem is different - even if the war lasts another 5 years, the Panthers will still not have time for it.
      1. 0
        19 February 2023 21: 40
        Reyemetall expand the main production. And to whom the tanks will go = this is not his problem at all.
  10. -2
    18 February 2023 08: 25
    Quote: rotmistr60
    Strange situation. The Bundeswehr does not need this tank, and the manufacturer expresses a desire to supply Ukraine.

    Nothing strange when viewed from the position of the Yankees. It is necessary to safely bury not only the present European tank building, but also the foreseeable future, having arranged for him a demonstrative anti-PR in the Ukrainian fields.
    1. -3
      18 February 2023 10: 27
      Yes, there will be no anti-PR. It will always be possible to say that Untermensch are crooked and cannot master a purebred Aryan cat.
      1. -1
        19 February 2023 02: 47
        Well, yes. As we talked about the crooked Arabs.
  11. +12
    18 February 2023 09: 30
    A strange article. The author writes about the incorrectness and ridiculousness of the decisions of the Fritz on the new tank and immediately gives good and logical explanations for the actions of the Germans when making such decisions and actions. Now for the tank, any improvement in the weapon system, even the old one, is a threat and useful at least! Moreover, neither the service personnel nor the logistical paradigm in the production, supply and repair of this chariot changes. The groping for new development concepts goes by feel. I'm talking about the use of innovations on old wheels. The Internet at the beginning, the same was an improvement in communication between computers. The dubiousness of the copter operator, this idiotic snag in the brain of Russian generals, cost us THOUSANDS of lives, not the worst young people on the battlefield! Maybe tens of thousands. And each of them has a father and mother. Sometimes children, wives. They, who died, because of OUR GENERALS, people! Just like you reading this! Each of them!
    1. +3
      18 February 2023 10: 25
      And, by the way, in addition, using the Leopard cart is good. I don't even know what to criticize here. Look, Abrams is just a blank. You take a hull, a turret from the warehouse and make offal to your liking. Outdated, put in storage. Then gutted and further in the same circle.
    2. -1
      18 February 2023 15: 17
      Quote: Anatoly Proskurin
      The author writes about the incorrectness and ridiculousness of the decisions of the Fritz on the new tank and immediately gives good and logical explanations for the actions of the Germans when making such decisions and actions.

      The author is a typical propagandist who considers his readers to be stupid sheep.
      1. 0
        20 February 2023 02: 12
        And you try to read the article. And not to be perceived by the class consciousness. :)
        The author ironically over the SITUATION.
        And it is such that a tank which is NOT available is offered for export to a country where a car is required tomorrow. There really is no tank. Rheinmetall assembled "on his knees" one exhibition copy with unknown functionality and tried to push it to the Bundeswehr. He obviously hoped that the enumeration of the widely publicized novelties of all the military industries of the world would delight the Bundespanzergenerals so much that they would fall on their backs shouting "ho!" It didn't grow. The Germans did not give money, they are working on a joint project with the French for a single tank.
        And apparently out of desperation, Rheinmetall decided to play the Ukrainian card. Let me remind you that the same Rheinmetall claimed that it would take him a year to restore and prepare the old Leopards he had in stock. And these are, firstly, the tanks that already exist, and, secondly, the tanks that are much simpler. For the same tank, it is required to create a production line at least. And set up production in series. And how quickly can they do it? Year? Two? Three?
        And, not an idle question, but who will pay for it? Ukraine can only share debts, now even its territory is not an asset. All sorts of things about the Baltics and Poland? They sit on the neck of the Germans. Statesmen? It's not even funny.
        Maybe hope for mythical Russian assets? So with their search somehow does not go well the whole year. They searched for 300, it seems that somehow they found 98, but no one knows what it is.
        It turns out that there is no one to pay except the Germans. And it turns out to be a really funny situation. Rheinmetall was unable to pull the budget for money directly, and decided to go "from the side of Ukraine." It's not clear just what the tank has to do with it? :)
    3. +3
      18 February 2023 16: 14
      A strange article. The author writes about the incorrectness and ridiculousness of the decisions of the Fritz on the new tank

      I wonder if at least one of the solutions used in the tank was ridiculed by me or marked as categorically wrong? Strange decisions were highlighted, which, as it is written in plain text, need to be run-in. So far, this is just a concept, implemented on the principle of "all at once" on the old chassis.
  12. 0
    18 February 2023 09: 32
    well, they have already written about this tank that does not exist today.
    It used to be: I didn't read it. but I condemn
    Now: they do not produce, but I will scold ....
    1. 0
      18 February 2023 10: 45
      Why scold? It is necessary to discuss what they offer from baubles. Don't tanks need surveillance drones? These drones should track cornets with all sorts of javelins. To hit them even with a machine gun, even with a cannon, if the projectile is not a pity. Track hidden enemy tanks. Anti-tank drones are also needed. Like everything else.
      Or our tanks do not need all this? Or is it that we simply cannot produce?
      Another question is that maybe you should not do everything in one bottle? Maybe on the battlefield you don’t need a single tank, but you need a group of different equipment, each for its own tasks, someone covers the sky, someone launches drones and monitors the battlefield, someone throws cornets with javelin grenades or mines, someone then it launches kamikaze drones at enemy tanks, and so on and so forth. Not necessarily all this equipment is needed with crews, some vehicles may be unmanned.
  13. -5
    18 February 2023 09: 46
    Again from the category of cheap show-offs. They are muddying with the Abrams and the Leclercs, but here is a novelty)))))
    Oh well)))
    They are afraid that ours will "lower" all this vaunted equipment below the plinth, and this, unlike information about the NWO, "covered in the right way" in the West, will no longer be hidden)))
    1. -1
      19 February 2023 02: 49
      It's a pity that not only tanks, but even old armored personnel carriers cannot be destroyed with emoticons, no matter how many there are.
  14. +2
    18 February 2023 10: 22
    The more I look at all sorts of new products, the more I am convinced that the Jews are right. For the current war, Merkava is just that. Heavy only. But this is not for all our tanks. And a compartment where you can put additional people, evacuate the wounded. Land the same drone operator.
    Real car.
    1. 0
      18 February 2023 14: 37
      Of course, we have a lot of Moses, but not a desert to lead them through it.
  15. -4
    18 February 2023 11: 01
    Oh well ... they will give / they won’t give ... I already read in many articles that the West is considering a supply planning horizon of 1,5-2 years? ... Are they serious ... two or three more years of fighting? with the Sumerians?!
    1. +3
      18 February 2023 15: 19
      Quote: silberwolf88
      supply planning horizon 1,5-2 years

      Do you want at least 5 years? With what is happening now and 20 years is a real option. We just don't have 20 years.
    2. -1
      19 February 2023 02: 50
      Fight the Sumerians yourself for at least a month on the front, then laugh.
  16. +3
    18 February 2023 13: 05
    I liked the concept of an airborne drone. Any tank can be equipped with this. Weld a "nest" protected from fragments onto the tower. You can make it wired, powered by the battery of the tank, then it will be directly connected, without the threat of interception. Or wireless, with power in the "socket". Auto return to nest. Auto following the tank and manual control. 100 meters high. Thermal imager, target recognition and technology. There may be guidance, with the ability to control the flight of a guided projectile. Oh fantasy.
    1. +3
      18 February 2023 14: 34
      Drone interception is not possible if communication with it and control is via an encrypted channel. You can break the connection, but for this there is a drone AI that will find and sit in its own nest.
      But how do our generals and our military science know this?
  17. -8
    18 February 2023 13: 13
    In the EU and NATO, the authorities have gone crazy after Biden, about 300 billion dollars have already gone to Ukraine, as if into an abyss, and everything will not calm down. Germany is waiting for another kick from Russia. How long have they been rummaging around in the ruins after the Second World War? Memory is short. Three times the Russians have already taken Berlin. For the fourth time, we will not give up Berlin to the Germans. There are so many anti-tank weapons in Russia now that the appearance of several dozen KF51 Panther tanks in the Armed Forces of Ukraine will not make a difference, they will all be destroyed. The only interest is to capture a few images of the KF51 Panther tank to get acquainted with the new bells and whistles of Germany. Yes, and F16 is also more noise than business. Aircraft 30 years ago development. And the performance characteristics of the F-16 and Eurofighters are rather weak, the Americans and NATO will only disgrace themselves in Ukraine with their planes, and everyone in the world will see what rubbish the US and NATO are selling them, stop buying American weapons and stand in line for Russian weapons. It will be necessary to create special forces in the RF Armed Forces to destroy and capture the latest Western models of V and VT.
    1. Alf
      18 February 2023 18: 11
      Quote: Vladimir Dmitrievich Burtsev
      and everyone in the world will see what rubbish the US and NATO are selling them, stop buying American weapons and stand in line for Russian weapons.

      And they won’t take it, we’ll turn off the gas. Familiar? Russia is already being squeezed out of the arms markets. And how the West knows how to impose the purchase of its weapons, we know very well ...
    2. -2
      19 February 2023 02: 53
      Let's win first, and then we will boast? How one Aryan people laughed at the stupidity of the Russians and the cowardice of the Americans, at the primitiveness of the T-34s and Shermans.
  18. 0
    18 February 2023 13: 35
    Quote from: Derbes19
    Yes, there will be no anti-PR. It will always be possible to say that Untermensch are crooked and cannot master a purebred Aryan cat.

    And often in the media space, ukrov are called "undersized krivoruky"?
    Examples - in the studio!
    Because immediately the questions will arise:
    1. Why help the Krivorukov so much?
    2. Who taught these crooked hands? Western mentors? They, too ... not quite the standard of perfection?
    3. And those who will buy these tanks are all purebred Aryans? This is not the most numerous category of people, however. It turns out that the sales market will be very modest, which is not good for business.
  19. -3
    18 February 2023 14: 00
    All imperial ambitions in Germany are playing, the next one will be the Tiger?
    1. -1
      19 February 2023 02: 54
      No, the name "Tiger" for armored vehicles is already taken. Guess who?
  20. +2
    18 February 2023 14: 28
    I would like to note the following.
    One, at that time only an exhibition copy, was shown in 2022. It was officially planned to begin mass production of "cats" by 2035. Skeptics said that it was real by 2040. Now tank manufacturers say that the delivery of the first batch is possible in 18 months.
    I am writing this not for comparison with the actual production and commissioning of Armat units (time, their number and combat use), but about the gigantic industrial and military-technical potential of the enemy.
    Everything is very, very difficult in the confrontation between Russia and all this "NATO".
  21. +1
    18 February 2023 16: 21
    The German government knows how to count money very well,

    In light of recent events, a rather controversial statement. The gas epic and the consequences thereof are witnesses.
    1. +2
      18 February 2023 18: 47
      I confirm from Germany.
      The current government has simply "ripped off the roof." They don't care about counting money. We have a crusade here in support of Ukraine and against Russia.
      We (Germany) will not stand up for the price! fool
  22. 0
    18 February 2023 19: 49
    No one there will give anything to anyone, so this is not even a prototype, but a concept. It still needs to be produced, to see what came of it, to put it into series. It's definitely not 3 or even 5 years.
  23. -1
    18 February 2023 19: 51
    Just been to the "Netto" store, budget. One cucumber (long, greenhouse) costs 1,79 €
  24. +2
    18 February 2023 21: 00
    The tank is interesting and quite promising. On the battlefield, he (in theory) can turn out to be a very serious opponent even for "Armata" and it's stupid to deny it. Although anti-tank weapons also do not stand still, and by the time the Panther appears on the battlefield, there will surely be a worthy answer to it ...
    Therefore, the tank has a few questions... 1. Why is this tank of no interest to the Bundeswehr? 2. When will the first serial copies of this tank actually roll off the assembly line? 3. And most importantly - how much does one copy of the new "Panther" cost and at whose expense do they want to deliver them to Ukraine, given that Ukraine itself is almost completely insolvent?
    1. 0
      18 February 2023 21: 07
      KF51 ist aber mit 51 Tonnen deutlich leichter als der Leo 2 und schwerer bewaffnet und mit Stückpreis von 15 Mio. Euro auch noch deutlich günstiger als der Leo 2 mit einem Stückpreis 19 Millionen.
      I'm translating.
      KF51 weighs 51 tons, lighter than Leo 2, with better armament, costs 15 million euros, Leo costs 19 million.
      It was officially planned to begin mass production of "cats" by 2035. Skeptics said that it was real by 2040. Now tank manufacturers say that the delivery of the first batch is possible in 18 months.
      And he was not interested until the "fried rooster" pecked in the ass.
      1. -2
        18 February 2023 21: 49
        Thanks for the translation, but it’s surprising that Leo is cheaper, that it can’t be better that it’s cheaper (within the same manufacturer)
        1. 0
          18 February 2023 23: 09
          As they say, for what I bought, for that I sell ...
          Officially published data.
  25. 0
    18 February 2023 22: 54
    As the unforgettable Ostap Ibragimovich used to say: "Talking in favor of the poor))) there is no tank - there is a mock-up. No one knows how much time and money it will take to bring it to mass production, and this is clearly not about Banderland, they have no money and no And how much will it cost if the "leopard 2A7" is already 12 million?
  26. 0
    18 February 2023 23: 30
    Germans are bastards!

    The tank needs 4 UAVs (TWO PAIRS), and specialized ones. 1 - "defensive", hanging from above, 2 - reconnaissance and target designation and for target illumination.

    2 work, 2 charge like robotic vacuum cleaners. Charging sockets behind the turret on the case. The change is automatic.

    A similar standard UAV layout - two pairs - for BPM, BMD, BTR and

    I think that EVERY (!) fighter should have a mini-copter, like a first aid kit. To see, sitting in a safe shelter, whether the enemy went on the attack under the cover of an artillery attack. Fly around the corner or just look around. Sorry for being self-evident.
  27. 0
    19 February 2023 02: 10
    The idea with drones has captured the minds, but is not a miracle weapon. Electronic warfare equipment will play a cruel joke with them. It is better to integrate drones at the level of the battalion commander in that part of it that is responsible for reconnaissance. And the tank itself should not be littered with such. It is better to install an additional turret with a machine gun to cover the side projections from grenade launchers, or additional aerosol traps, in other words, there are many options.
    1. 0
      19 February 2023 02: 59
      Ok, Chinese civilian Mavics from aliexpress fly from both sides, and the electronic warfare somehow doesn’t interfere with them very much. Russian electronic warfare turned out to be monstrously overestimated. Perhaps the Americans or Europeans have something much more effective in their secret bins (I don’t believe it, but so be it), but in any case this is not a problem for the Germans.
    2. +1
      19 February 2023 18: 20
      apparently, you didn’t drive a tank, seeing the district from an UAV ... In terms of tactics: no one will drag electronic warfare against a tank - neither a powerful long-range one, nor a mobile near one.
      1. 0
        2 May 2024 14: 46
        I propose integrating drones at the battalion commander level. He already has a staff, and the headquarters already has intelligence. Let intelligence do this. The ways of promotion and promotion are her task. If they don't know how, let them learn. In the current conditions, it is necessary to install electronic warfare on each tank and improve the KAZ towards all-aspect control. All FPV drones are crap with low speed, if KAZ intercepts ATGMs, then these drones should be dealt with.
  28. +2
    19 February 2023 03: 46
    Naked 100% PR of the Rheinmetall company. Even if the NWO lasts another five years, the Panther will still not have time for it. This is not World War II, when it took a couple of years to get from the drawing board to the battlefield. Now even the conservative modernization of long-used equipment lasts for years. Already established production is at least ten months from cutting metal to factory testing (data from a recent court decision on BMD-4). A highly optimistic program for a new Franco-German tank has been underway for several years now, with entry into service scheduled for 2035. Armata, which really exists in the experimental series, was shown in 2014, after 9 years the result ... Well, that's it. T-62s are fighting. A Leclerc with a 140mm cannon and a Swiss Leopard with another 140mm cannon (which pierce anything, even Armata, even Panther) were shown back in the early 90s, about 0 cars went into production. And Rheinmetall does not even have a prototype. Only the body of the old Leo A4 and the model of the tower made of plastic. By the way, I have questions even to this layout. Damn, did you really put a quadrangular stabilization casing on a tank gun? How about an automatic fake? Although no, judging by the fact that it only covers the upper part, this is a stealth. True, it covers only 40% of the barrel length, unlike true stealth casings (which can be seen on naval developments, and which cover 100%). So why put this ridiculous blotch on the gun, which does not stabilize and does not give radio invisibility? There is a bad suspicion that the concept of the tower was created not by engineers, but by designers. Who were given the task "Well, you ... play beautifully, like in a science fiction movie. But inexpensively, we have a budget."


    1. Most likely, Rheinmetall does not have any ready-made project at least in the drawings, but there is an unprofessionally concocted concept at the level of "a fifth-grader drew a spaceship."

    2. The path from this concept to a working sample, even with the best funding, will take years and the result is unlikely to be similar to what was intended.

    3. The path from a working sample to a large series will take another year (hello, Armata). We have not the slightest chance of seeing Armata in the battles in Ukraine.
  29. 0
    19 February 2023 09: 24
    Quote: Alf
    Russia is already being squeezed out of the arms markets. And how the West knows how to impose the purchase of its weapons, we know very well ...

    Well, how, squeezed out? How many American weapons did China buy, for example?
    The Russian Federation will receive big money for such a product for a long time to come. The main problem is the lack of production capacity (they work for the NWO), and even the unfair competition of Western companies (which has always been the case).
    The United States has pretty badly spoiled relations even with previously loyal and loyal allies. Arab sheikhs will confirm...
  30. 0
    19 February 2023 10: 54
    No matter what anyone says - the car is very interesting
    1. 0
      26 February 2023 21: 01
      Rather strange, given that it was washed down on the basis of the hull and chassis 2A4 ...
  31. -1
    25 February 2023 18: 17
    The special military operation in Ukraine is a vivid example in this regard: it is probably impossible to count how much profit Western corporations have that are engaged in the restoration and modernization of equipment for Kyiv.

    And why only "Western"?
    In our military-industrial complex, in general, now it works in 3 shifts.

    The war is like a gift to them - only they are depressed that the program for rearmament of the GPV-2020 army has ended, and the money for the new SAP-2027 will go past them, mainly for the modernization of nuclear weapons.
    And even worse, trouble was already knocking at them - according to the government's plans, they wanted to force them to increase their share of civilian products to 2025% by 30, and up to 2030% by 50!

    And then the war and all these gloomy prospects fly into the trash and again you can rivet tanks and bombs as usual!
  32. 0
    31 March 2023 20: 19
    Panthers from Reichmetal will burn exactly like all other tanks with the Nazis ...
  33. 0
    April 2 2023 07: 46
    New doesn't mean good. Field and military tests did not pass. Pushed all that is possible. Another cyber waffle from Rheinmetal.
  34. 0
    April 2 2023 07: 59
    What does "sell" to the outskirts mean? They stand like a cast-iron bridge. Where is the money Zin. And most importantly, the Sumerians are such smart guys that they will definitely put him in another counteroffensive, and they will sentence him there. Reputational losses will be simply terrible, who will then buy it for this loot? And God forbid, Russian Ivan captures and digs? So, for the sake of testing in a real combat situation, but with a German crew, it can be allowed. Populate from afar. There was already one mustachioed European gentleman who also believed in indestructible prodigies. First, he shoved the newest secret tanks into the swamps near Leningrad, where they were safely and partially infested. And one is captured whole. Exhibited at the exhibition of captured weapons in the Central Park of Culture and Culture in Moscow. And then it was tested at the GABTU training ground, thanks to which its weak points were revealed. His next wunderwaffles were, oh my god, the Panthers. Which he drove all in a crowd to the panterbrigade and sent near Kursk. Half of them broke even before reaching the LBS. The other half was halved by minefields, anti-tank weapons and aviation of the Red Army. There is a documented fact that even the gun mask was pierced by a 45mm sub-caliber projectile. I'm already silent about the sides of the hull and turret. And most importantly, in the Red Army there was a so-called. tiger fear, but there was no mention of panther fear at all. Live example: ml. lieutenant Pegov on the T70 !!!! while in reconnaissance, he burned 2 panthers from an ambush and somehow didn’t boast about it. Yes, routine. I would like to note that the main criterion for any weapon is not the performance characteristics written on paper, but the head of its owner.
  35. 0
    9 May 2023 19: 19
    The tank concert is not bad.
    IMHO, return the standard 120mm fluff, scanty ammo for it, pieces of 6-8 crowbars and the same number of land mines ... We fill the rest with drones to the eyeballs ... Since all 4 crew members can work with them, then they are from a closed position and should do this , UAVs should not be 4, but 40 pieces. And the Cannon, the cannon is so for self-defense and critical cases (ambushes or the need to break out of the boiler or an offensive there on the second front, when all the UAVs are used up, the advanced units have broken through the front, and you need to catch up with your own, but pockets of resistance may still exist). In such a concept, it would be interesting for us to create mobile protected drone points ... In fact, he is not afraid of anything except a direct hit of 152/155+ caliber or an AT, but the chance to catch an AT in the rear is scanty ... Well, hitting a mine, but again there are no mines in the rear ...
    While lighter equipment can be hit by fragments of shells ... And when ambushed, and fire from smaller-caliber guns, including automatic cannons.