Critical vulnerability: self-propelled mortars in a special operation

Towed battalion artillery in a special operation does not hold water. Source: fn-volga.ru

Artillery Gods

The realities of a special operation impose special requirements on the mobility of artillery. Especially to the front line guns. Modern means of artillery reconnaissance allocate only a few minutes to the crews to leave the position.

It is the hardest for the mortars. Not only does the projectile approach the target slowly and along a hinged trajectory (which simplifies detection), the crews are also a couple of kilometers away from the front line. The situation is aggravated by the widespread use of reconnaissance and strike weapons by the enemy. drones, capable of both self-attacking and adjusting fire.

And now imagine how you can quickly evacuate the battalion 120-mm mortar 2S12 "Sani", which is actively used in Ukraine. In a combat position, this product pulls 210 kilograms, is mounted on a flimsy wheelset from the Zhiguli, which seriously reduces mobility. The tractor is usually the Ural, which is not protected on either side, and the calculation of five people takes a lot of time to collapse the position.

If you follow the letter of the Charter, then you can move the gun in tow only a short distance. This is not surprising - the extremely lightweight design will not withstand the full speed of an army truck leaving the shelling. Therefore, it would be correct to load a 210-kilogram product into the back of a tractor along the ramp rails. And all this under enemy fire. And this, by the way, is the most powerful artillery gun of the battalion.

In fairness, the enemy is also not going smoothly - a considerable part of the mortars have to be moved on civilian pickup trucks, or simply on the roof of armored vehicles.

Such different and such identical self-made mortars on both sides of the front. Source: Telegram

It is not surprising that the fighters have to convert mortar installations in the field. First of all, tractors are blended with improvised means, which partially protects against fragments and, if you're lucky, from bullets. Secondly, gunners place guns in the back of the car - from now on, these are not towed, but self-propelled mortars. Simple operations can significantly reduce the deployment time and, most importantly, the time to withdraw from a position after work.

In the chronicles of the special operation, such “innovations” have already been presented several times - first they showed an automatic “Vasilek” in the back of a KamAZ truck, later an 82-mm mortar 2B24 on the “Ural”.

How quickly can you leave a position with such a weapon? Source: arsenal-info.ru

An attentive reader will surely remember the famous 2S9 Nona-S and 2S23 Nona-SVK. These self-propelled mortars have long been in service with the Russian army and are used in a special operation. But, as always, there are a few caveats.

2S9 "Nona-S" is a divisional-regimental weapon, very expensive to manufacture and operate. In addition, the vehicle is assigned to the Airborne Forces, which limits the participation of equipment in combined arms operations. 2S23 "Nona-SVK" is a battalion self-propelled gun based on the BTR-80, and it is really capable of replacing towed mortars. But it doesn't replace. In the special operation, vehicles are seen only sporadically, as well as in enemy propaganda reports of destroyed equipment.

In general, for various reasons, "Nona-SVK" is not enough - either because of the small number, or because of the technical condition. The very concept of a universal weapon capable of working both mines and shells is quite controversial. How much does such a solution increase in efficiency and how much does it increase cost and complexity? A question that has yet to be resolved, but after the special operation.

The most surprising thing is that we have plenty of self-propelled mortars, ideal for the conditions of a special operation. True, for the most part they are calculated in units.

Mortars are not for parades

A review of potential novelties for the special operation should begin with the 2K32 Deva product, which is a tracked self-propelled 82-mm mortar. The base is a reliable and unpretentious tractor MT-LB. In the car, everything is extremely simple - a classic 2B24 mortar is placed in the open wheelhouse. No unnecessary exotics with versatility and automatic loading. It turned out simple and angry.

Armor confidently protects against fragments and light small arms weapons, and the ubiquitous drones with VOGs and F-1 on board still have to try to disable the car and crew. In the case of wheeled tractors, defeating the calculation and immobilizing the vehicle from the air becomes a matter of technology. The car is good for everyone, only there are only 36 such copies in the troops, and those in the National Guard.

2K32 "Virgo". Source: forums.spacebattles.com

Czechoslovak ShM vz. 85 PRÁM-S - 120 mm mortar on BMP-1 chassis

If you delve into history, it turns out that the Bulgarians decided to use MT-LB as a platform for a mortar back in the 70s. In the Soviet Army, the self-propelled 120-mm mortar "Tundzha-Sani" refused, citing the presence of the same "Nona". But in Bulgaria, several hundred of these machines are still preserved.

The supply of this equipment to nationalists from the Armed Forces of Ukraine will look like a sad anecdote. And at the same time, the Czechs and Slovaks will provide their ShM vz. 85 PRÁM-S - 120 mm mortar on the BMP-1 chassis, equipped with an automatic loader. A distinctive feature of the machine was an additional pair of rollers.

However, in the Russian army there are single copies of conditional analogues. We are talking about the car 2S12B "Dilemma-2S12" with a 120-mm gun "Sani" placed at the stern. Collapsing and deploying the mortar has become not much more convenient, but here at least there is armor.

But where is this technique in a special operation?

Product 2S12B "Dilemma-2S12". Source: sdelanounas.ru

Self-propelled mortar 2S40 "Phlox". Source: mil.ru

Much more recent samples of mortar weapons are not visible either.

What happens if you put an 82-mm automatic mortar on a light wheeled chassis? It will turn out "Drok", which was repeatedly presented at the "Army" forum. The breech-loading mortar allows you to fire even under fire, and the modern Typhoon-VDV K-4386 chassis significantly increases the mobility of crews.

Nice car but pricey. Not in the current conditions to produce in large quantities. It was necessary to think earlier and arm the battalion artillery. A 120-mm self-propelled mortar MZ-204 "Highlander" based on the armored car "Tiger" will come out much cheaper. They showed the product back in 2016, but the car never reached the gunners.

120-mm self-propelled mortar MZ-204 "Highlander". Source: pogranec.ru

The idea is very good - a muzzle-loading mortar can be loaded from an armored car due to the swinging trunnion of the gun. Most likely, the rate of fire and accuracy suffer, but the crew has a much higher chance of surviving. After work, the "Highlander" is enough to raise the outriggers and hastily retreat from the zone of potential shelling.

In the same 2016, the Burevestnik Central Research Institute demonstrated a heavy and again universal weapon with a semi-automatic loading 2S40 Phlox. It can hit the enemy with both shells for cannons and mines. But, again, where are they, these mortars?

A very rare modification of the BTR-70. At the stern of the armored personnel carrier, a transportable 120-mm mortar "Bant" can be seen. Developed in the late 1970s at the Burevestnik Central Research Institute. Created as part of strengthening the firepower of motorized riflemen. The mortar was mounted on a special gripping device, boxes for carrying mortar ammunition could also be attached there. Source: telegram channel "Tanks peace"

Lithuania handed over to the Armed Forces of Ukraine 10 self-propelled 120-mm mortars and two artillery fire control vehicles based on the M113 armored personnel carrier. Source: Telegram

Unpleasant, but the first to be able to quickly and cheaply put battalion artillery on wheeled and armored moves were thought of in Ukraine. This is how the BTR-3M2 appeared, simple to the point of impossibility - the turret was removed, the fighting compartment was expanded, a 120-mm mortar and forty mines were installed to it at the landing site. There is also a BTR-3M1 with an 82-mm mortar. A few units of this technique were also made for foreign customers, but some copies managed to die during a special operation.

But the nationalists have at least a dozen 120-mm mortars based on the American M113 armored personnel carrier. Handed over gifts from Lithuania. By design, everything is simple - a mortar in the troop compartment with the ability to fire from behind the armor.

BTR-3M2

In the end, let's voice some hope.

First the hope that there are still quite a few infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers left in the rear that are suitable for combat operations.

The second hope for craftsmen from tank repair plants capable of cutting off the tower, installing a mortar in the fighting compartment, and ammunition in the landing compartment. Or vice versa.

Finally, third hope for the corresponding strong-willed decision of the leadership. For example, Dmitry Medvedev, First Deputy Chairman of the Military Industrial Commission under the Government of the Russian Federation.

Otherwise, it will not be possible to quickly and efficiently dress battalion artillery in armor. Now the main thing is to gain time until the mentioned Droks, Phloxes, Virgos and Highlanders approach the front line.

Comments

[Russian jacket]

It is difficult to comment on something without expressions, which will be blocked by the moderator. But in fact. Form for almost 200k rubles. Apparently, with such objects as armored vehicles, and even massive ones, it is unprofitable to cut the budget. Managers in uniform are no better than civilians. Or maybe worse, because they sit only on the budget and are out of control. Evil is missing.

[cold wind]

What could be easier than installing 120 mm in MT-LB or BMP-1? Any heavy equipment repair shop can handle it. Only now you can’t cut money on this and you won’t get a check-in.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

And end up with an irrationally used heavy tracked chassis, with a small portable ammunition load, inconvenient loading and without the possibility of direct fire.

[stankow]

... which is doomed to always shoot in the open, since you can’t fit into any trench, and who will dig in the whole car? And the calculation will work in a meter from the muzzle flame and thunder, deafening. Minis will not be dragged along the ground, crawling and along the trench, but up, opening up to their full height. In general, people write here who have never shot.

[IL-18]

Quote from cold wind

in MT-LB or BMP-

We have a lot of BTR-50s with PT-76s in storage. In an armored personnel carrier already open from above (by the way, floating and 2,5 tons of carrying capacity), a "cornflower" or something larger can be installed by the storage base itself. In my opinion, with a clear organization of re-equipment and training, the issue is quickly (a month or two) and relatively cheaply solved. Although, I served at the headquarters back in the Soviet Army ... In modern conditions, this is stretched out for years, due to not only organizational reasons.

[Dimax-nemo]

And will they start now? Technique still 50's.

[megavolt823]

As for you, I don't know. And we have already sold scrap metal for a long time. Already the factories have long been handed over to scrap metal. And you have a neutered cat looking for something with its paw.

[insafufa]

Quote from cold wind

What could be easier than installing 120 mm in MT-LB or BMP-1?

The chassis without a radical refinement will not pull a 120mm sled like a BMP-1 will jump
here, with minimal modifications, you can install an 82mm tray or cornflower, but there will be no tower in any case.
On the PRP-3, we had an 82mm mortar, breech-loading shells for it were more rare for lighting, they were given out from time to time, since an electric fuse was attached there to an ordinary tray and hit the accuracy of not what but the main thing was to aim.

[TIR]

Mtlb is easily redesigned. Cut out the roof of the aft assault force, build up half a meter of armor along the sides above the cutout, and weld the cut-out roof to these sides from above. This roof has a wide factory sunroof. Under it is a mortar. From the aft landing to the front there is a narrow passage on the starboard side. So put an armored door there. There are 2 rows of seats in the front. The calculation of the mortar will easily fit there. For accurate shooting from behind on the hydraulics, you can put a folding stop. Since the mortar will be in the stern and the mtlb will swing when fired. MTLB will calmly carry a mortar, ammo and additional armor. There are only 2 upper hatches in the front. You can also make a door on the starboard side for quickly leaving a padded car. We made these MTLBs like a horse

[Machito]

I recall the meeting of the GDP with the directors of the military-industrial complex holdings right before the announcement of mobilization. Everyone, ALL directors sit with dull faces and extinct views. One GDP smiles and asks them: Why are you so sour? Smile. And they don't smile. The president's bewilderment can be understood: the holdings had to conclude a state defense order for astronomical sums, directors should be born with a wide river of money, directors should jump like bunnies with delight and clap their hands painfully in their hands, and drivers' hands, like rotten liverwurst. The sadness and anguish of the directors is also understandable: titanic work needs to be done for luxurious space financing in order to significantly increase the output of military products, and enterprises are not ready for this. There is nothing. Not enough equipment, machines. There are no trained personnel, technical specialists, workers. Enterprises are ready for the production of piece products, prodigies for the Army Games and shows, and not for the production of mass products. As a result, we have what we have. Meanwhile, the Eurofascist Union is driving military equipment to the front line in a crowd, no worse than Hitler.

[Beaver]

Candidates for the head of production who came to me from the military-industrial complex were distinguished by astronomical requests for salaries and a complete lack of organizational skills. This is because, releasing 2 products a year, they did not have to work at full strength at work .. Despite the fact that the salary received normal, all the leaders from the military-industrial complex simply decomposed. And now the moment of truth has come. Ahahaha

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Bearded

There is nothing. Not enough equipment, machines. There are no trained personnel, technical specialists, workers. Enterprises are ready for the production of piece products, prodigies for the Army Games and shows, and not for the production of mass products.

Serdyukov was also indignant why the final product included payment for areas that were not used at the time of production. Now the time has come when these areas, machines, and literate people were needed - but they are not, they were reduced in order to save money.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

The destruction of manufacturing capacity by taxes on property and equipment is one of the main problems of our time. Cranes are sawn for scrap so that taxes are not paid, let alone workshops.

[Oleg Ogorod]

And for a long time they ditched such a thing as a mobile reserve. It existed only on paper in the records of the second department.

[Great Mike]

"Star-bearing" traitor to Russia, what else can I say ...

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Bearded

The sadness and anguish of the directors is also understandable: titanic work needs to be done for chic space financing in order to significantly increase the output of military products, and

This says only one thing - these "general directors" have no organizational skills at all. They should learn from the directors of the military-industrial complex during the Second World War. When they, practically from scratch, launched the production of military equipment, when millions of skilled workers, wearing overcoats, left the shops.
Or maybe it makes sense to explain to these "general directors" that in case of failure to fulfill the state defense order, they will go to sunny Magadan to crush cranberries with their booty?

[Andrey Georgich]

Why Magadan comrade? What, we can’t dig a trench for them near the Kremlin?
The father of the nations probably said so.

[Rome]

Organizational skills are one thing. Another, in the USSR there were their own and lend-lease machines, there were vocational schools with competent teachers, there were professional workers, mentors capable of teaching a beginner! And today: there really aren’t any machine tools of our own, you can’t just buy imported machines, there are no vocational schools, there are still not many people who want to be turners, subcontractors have the same ZhO ... and they will ask for the number of tanks !!! hence the sadness

[Artem Prokhorov]

I also see that the problem is in the frames. Turners are not enough wildly. Those vocational schools that remain are riveting the next accountants / lawyers ... Popularization of fur processing is also not enough.
Lord, we tried to hire "specialists" fired from the nearest plant associated with the military-industrial complex in the company - all of them are some kind of self-taught people who cannot even land normally with a reference book. As a result, turners and millers were exported from the destroyed enterprise in Makeevka.

[former soldier]

This says only one thing - these "general directors" have no organizational skills at all. They should learn from the directors of the military-industrial complex during the Second World War.

Not only the times of the Second World War, but also just Soviet times. True, only in the provinces of the Volga region, the Urals, Siberia. The center was spoiled in terms of responsibility.

[uncle Vlad]

You will be sad here, the director understands that he has appointed relatives, and they are stupid. Here you need to work and how. Do you want a real position for your nephew - Director of the Department for planning the need for labor to ensure the State Defense Order. Salary 150 tons.

[restless]

The director of the Obukhov plant in St. Petersburg, which is part of the ALMAZ-ANTEY concern, has a salary of 5 million per month, 150 tons for an ignoramus is also a lot ..

[anclevalico]

Education is ruined, there are no techies. Enterprises are credited and in debt. Loans at draconian interest. Single orders. No director will take you out here. This is provided by the state. So, not from the directors, but from the GDP, you need to ask why everything that is possible was ruined and sold. Everything was done with his knowledge or with unwillingness to be aware. And then he is called the commander-in-chief, and from the bunker the nose seems only to say another speech, which was recorded last year.

[Beetle1991]

Or maybe it makes sense to explain to these "general directors" that in case of failure to fulfill the state defense order, they will go to sunny Magadan to crush cranberries with their booty?

There will be no point.
It's like forcing a nurse or nurse to do a heart or kidney transplant. They are basically incapable of doing this. Put a gun to your head though.
It's the same with these directors. If before the total sanctions they did not modernize production, did not purchase machine tools, then how are they, now, under the conditions of the blockade, will they do something ???? They couldn't then, and even more so now.
They hope that their conscience will wake up and suddenly abilities will appear? Seriously? You don't have to be naive.
As it was before, plus and minus will continue to be so. Those who gave a good result will also give a good result. Those mediocrity who did nothing will also do nothing. And as they say, we have horses at the crossing, you yourself know.

[Midas]

Alas, there are no simple solutions in this matter, where to get personnel in a country that graduates managers, lawyers, accountants and economists in batches, and turners and engineers piece by piece.

[Rabioso]

Everything is fine until you reach the Eurofascist union.

[Yves Montand]

Not everything is so bad Zala in Izhevsk is doing the production of drones in the former mall from scratch. True stench around the sea, even the Washington Post wrote about it. The STC in St. Petersburg also rented warehouse space.

[Alexga]

Everyone, ALL directors sit with dull faces and extinct views.

And what else can they do? Everyone is sitting on bank loans, it is better for them to create one sample, but expensive, than 10, but cheap. It is a mystery to me how the military-industrial complex can exist without direct funding from the budget. Sweat and samples are created with screwed weapons, and then options are thought up where to use them. The Soviet school of creating weapons to defend the Fatherland has already been buried. It's a pity.

[ycuce234-san]

Quote: AlexGa

It is a mystery to me how the military-industrial complex can exist without direct funding from the budget.

If you stimulate sales to the world arms markets, then the military-industrial complex lives well with private money. To do this, it is necessary to promote their weapons in the world and not mainly just subsidize them.

[Alexander_First]

You are absolutely right. Military-industrial complex enterprises have been systematically destroyed since the time of E.T. Gaidar. In the 2000s, the attitude towards the military-industrial complex did not change. Today, enterprises are not ready for a sharp increase in the production of products and complexes for the RF Armed Forces. For 30 years, mobilization capacities have been destroyed (production shops and machine park, warehouse stocks of raw materials and materials, personnel reserve).

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Russian quilted jacket

It is difficult to comment on something without expressions, which will be blocked by the moderator.

And it will instantly block. But my personal appeals to three, in turn, moderators, were simply ignored. Why? Pride did not allow?

[PROXOR]

WHY INVENT THE BICYCLE. There is also 2S9 Nona. Self-propelled. With some kind of booking. Pretty frisky. To her, an adequate MSA with a topographic reference from GLONASS and that's it.
Do not write that nona is 120mm. Nothing prevents making the same 82mm - but why.

[Shelest2000]

Nothing surprising - our generals, according to centuries-old traditions, are always preparing for the last war according to the principle of the old Russian maybe. Yes, more, but cheaper.
PS. There are no words. Some thoughts, and even those are obscene ...

[DemikSPb]

In the contract, the cost of the form was indicated 10 rubles. There was an answer from MO. For 600 tr. you can buy it on the manufacturer's website. And it will still have to wait.

[Proton]

Strange!
At one time, the Minister of Defense spoke about 70% of new equipment in the troops. True, this minister was still talking about cities with millionaires in cold Siberia, and they are about to start building these cities.

[Mazunga]

so the minister))) you never know what the supreme press secretary will blurt out, as the latter puts it, sometimes carries a blizzard))) in general, the main thing is to have a hanging tongue and the fuckers themselves will suffer shown by practice

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: Proton

These cities are about to be built.

And you can start ... The army of builders gives itself away ... They don’t want to share grief in trouble, let them work for the good for food.
There is a lot of land in Siberia ... There is no one to work on it and there is nowhere to grow cucumbers ...

[Beetle1991]

Strange! angry
At one time, the Minister of Defense spoke about 70% of new equipment in the troops. True, this minister was still talking about cities with millionaires in cold Siberia, and they are about to start building these cities.

Yes, he said a lot. About 16.000 Syrian volunteers who are ready to come.

[Igor Zhorov]

The mortar in trench warfare is a weapon of mass destruction. A positional war is going on in most of the theater of operations. Why carry a heavy 120 mm mortar at the risk of calculation and a tractor? They fired back, threw on a camouflage net, ran away to shelters. They covered the mortar, it doesn’t matter there are thousands, if not tens of thousands, in stock. They didn’t cover them again, they shot back and let the drone search, they don’t have enough drones to calculate mortars. The only trouble is that there are not enough soldiers to serve thousands of these mortars, and a lot of them are needed. Self-propelled mortars are good, but they are expensive and few. In a total war, whoever can produce the most inexpensive weapons will win.

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: Igor Zhorov

Whoever can produce the most inexpensive weapons will win in an all-out war.

In a total war, the one who can produce INEXPENSIVE, BUT EFFECTIVE WEAPONS and use the ENTIRE LINE OF AVAILABLE AND PREVIOUSLY PRODUCED WEAPONS to destroy the enemy !!!
The entire range, even those subject to special conditions...
IN TOTAL WAR THE RESULT WILL BE IMPORTANT!!!
FOR RUSSIA - ONLY VICTORY!!!

[AKsvlad047]

At present, the human resource is in the first place, we no longer give birth, as before, 5-10 children per family! Therefore, at the forefront should be a strategy to save the life of a soldier, you are right, we have few of them! We need a protected and mobile mortar point vitally and we don’t need to count money now! There are twice as many material resources than in the west! First of all, it is necessary to take measures to save the lives of professional soldiers, and this is possible with the release of more expensive and advanced equipment! We will no longer be able to throw the enemy with the corpses of our soldiers, there are simply no such numbers of them!

[Rabioso]

You are a little behind the times. Mortars are calculated not so much by drones as by special equipment. The shot is detected in seconds. Ukrainians do not have many of them, but they do.

[IL-18]

Special equipment is also calculated in seconds. And the Ukrainians are the same Russians, i.e. not fools, so there is not much of this special equipment.

[Foul skeptic]

Special equipment is also calculated in seconds.

Tell us about the calculation of passive (sound / acoustic) artillery reconnaissance stations?

[Oleg Ogorod]

By sound, can the station calculate a mortar shot? Or by the sound of a mine flying? Didn't even know.

[stankow]

Yes maybe. Sound reconnaissance station. "Hear" both the sound of the shot and the seismic wave, the mortar plate hits the ground hard. The method is as old as the world, since WWI. During the Second World War, Solzhenitsyn was a captain and commander of a sound reconnaissance platoon. Two pairs of microphones determine the coordinates of the target. And also coordinate your breaks along it.

[Murakow]

This has its own idea. For example, we have one calculation and two mortars with ammunition. Each of them is set from each other at least at a distance above the radius of destruction with one Grad installation with a full ammunition load. They fired back with one mortar, moved on to another, waited for the "answer" on the first, fired back with the second. Back to the first one. Change position if necessary. They shot first, until the "answer" came in on the second, and so on in the same way. The probability of a crew getting under fire is reduced by a factor of two, and the hardware can be better covered.

[xunno]

What is the radius of the ellipse? A salvo of MLRS conventionally lies in an ellipse and not in a circle, and this ellipse, unlike barrel artillery, is extended perpendicular to the direction of fire. In addition, the work is estimated to be ineffective, and spreading individual battery crews along the front means losing fire control.

[stankow]

No, the scatter gap of the arti is stretched in the direction of the fire. Average deviations in range are always 2-4 times greater than in direction. And so, yes. One calculation of two mortars cannot be mastered.

[Krilion]

in fact, it turned out to be for nothing - in the Russian army this is either not there at all, or it is wildly lacking .. starting with first-aid kits and uniforms, and ending with heavy weapons and strike UAVs ... it’s generally not clear what the Ministry of Defense has been doing all the past decades ... the tiger really turned out to be paper ..

[Russian jacket]

Well, how. Heroic defense of armchairs from insiduating colleagues. Geshefts with defense industry enterprises. By hanging the stars of the hero even to the rear. Well, and zeal for your neighbor. The daughter of the minister, who and what is in charge, I hesitate to ask.

[Revolver]

Quote: Krilion

it’s generally not clear what the Ministry of Defense has been doing over the past decades

Here the demand should be from the guarantor, but who will ask him?

[fiberboard]

In vain the author hopes for DAM. DAM is a cheap populist, he again wants to put his GDP in his place in order to continue to rule the country.

[Fenix844]

Judging by his texts on the Internet (under vodka), he is trying to try on the role of Zhirinovsky. Although, it's unlikely to work. Charisma is not

[nazgul-ishe]

"hope for craftsmen from tank repair plants capable of cutting off a turret, installing a mortar in the fighting compartment, and ammunition in the landing compartment. Or vice versa."
And where is the Design Bureau of the Research Institute and other departments that receive a salary for this? It means that there are not the right people or the wrong leadership. The price of the product is efficiency and reliability, and how much money they ask for is commerce.

[Guran33 Sergey]

They were preparing for a "real war" of a fast-flowing nuclear missile with a small presence of a trench. But they received a postponed civil war with its bitterness and irreconcilability and the re-anchoring of the "great war" with hundreds of kilometers of levels and fortresses of cities with a novelty - the local population as a human shield. So it was not ordered art armament of the battalion level and the lessons of the Afghans were lost in the events of the rebellion and coup d'état of 85-93

[HumbleCivilian]

And so, a year after the start of the non-war, nothing really is being done? I would rather believe that this is how they prepared to fight: in order not to win by any chance.

[Guran33 Sergey]

Do you have inside information that nothing is being done, or is this how the situation is seen from the sofa? By the way, the holy javelin in his nickname was poorly disguised

[HumbleCivilian]

Like a scoreboard. Or do you have any reasonable doubts about this?

[wladimirjankov]

[quote postponed civil war] [/ quote]
a long-planned and prepared war between one people.

[Leader_Barmaleev]

But where is this technique in a special operation?

I know more than a dozen rhymes for the word where. I’ll make a reservation right away - Karaganda is not included in this list. And now the question is essentially - will they shoot at least one fat face for this? And the second question - will our esteemed growing (steal) tech now rush to produce what is needed or will it again proceed to testing the next analogue?

[Russian jacket]

They don't shoot. Either they will reward or transfer where the thread is, so that it is warm and seditious thoughts are drowned out by the rustle of shekels.

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: Leader_Barmaleev

I know more than a dozen rhymes for the word where.

I also:

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Quote: Leader_Barmaleev

I’ll make a reservation right away - Karaganda is not included in this list.

And Sayn-shand?

* * *

Quote: Leader_Barmaleev

And the second question - our respected grew (steal) those now rush to produce exactly what is needed Or will he again move on to testing the next analogue?

Good and topical question!

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Leader_Barmaleev

And now the question is essentially - will they shoot at least one fat face for this?

To shoot the "fat muzzle" he must first be found. And he "dissolved" in hundreds of "fat muzzles", try to figure out the most "fat" one. There is only one thing left - to shoot everyone who has a "fat muzzle". But this is a priori impossible.

[IL-18]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

a priori impossible.

Well, the main thing here is to start. Offer the "fat faces" a good reward for handing over another "fat face" to the right place, and...
First, of course, "crow to crow" and "hand to hand." But, as soon as ONE starts, it will go exponentially, and into the budget too.

[_RUSSIAN_BEAR_]

Chief... Everything is gone!
If you're talking about a problem, offer a cheap, high-tech solution. There are hints of solutions. There is no solution itself.
You can only see a bunch of brown, and a huge fan. The easiest way to throw on the fan.
How our experts got it.

[Mikhail Maslov]

You are in vain. People offer, first of all, solutions and solutions. But you just throw the same thing on the fan. Personally, my opinion is not a problem. This is not a systematic refinement (at best). strategy for the development of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, which, by the way, is not even now. You yourself know who is to blame. What to do, change and not only the leadership, but also the attitude of ourselves.

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: _RUSSIAN_BEAR_

If you're talking about a problem, offer a cheap, high-tech solution. There are hints of solutions. There is no solution itself.

Yes, the languages ​​have already been erased to offer ... See below !!!
It's you who OFFER EVERYONE TO GIVE EVERYTHING AT THE ROOM OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT SERVED A SINGLE DAY!!!
There are specialists, there are practitioners, there are tactics and strategies!!! There is no desire to mobilize the defense industry for the production of WEAPONS SHOWING EFFICIENCY AND ADVANTAGE !!!
Well, wait further, what the leaders will come up with ...

[Alexey RA]

Quote: _RUSSIAN_BEAR_

If you're talking about a problem, offer a cheap, high-tech solution. There are hints of solutions. There is no solution itself.

Have you read the article? There are solutions to the problem that are already in the hardware and are based on the base we have. True, these solutions are either not made by us, or by us, but they travel around exhibitions in single copies.

[Stepych]

The author forgot about the Finnish 120 mm. double-barreled mortar with automatic loader AMOS

Terrible thing. Can fall asleep with mines in a few seconds and get out to the rear

[Dimax-nemo]

But the Swedes refused it. And export orders are mainly for single-barreled.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Dimax-Nemo

But the Swedes refused it. And export orders are mainly for single-barrel

By the way, a self-propelled 120-mm breech-loading smooth-bore mortar was developed in the USSR with loading from a 6-shot revolving drum ... "single-barreled"!

It was developed along with the "Tundzha", but these mortars were abandoned in the Union to "please" the "Nona"!

[Dimax-nemo]

Interesting, I didn't know. Nones were originally made for the Airborne Forces, they had their own reasons.

[Div Divich]

Finnish mortar at an astronomical price.
And did the Finnish Army buy a lot of them?
How many wars have been won with it?

[Ross xnumx]

"Cornflower"? Your copper!!! Yes, in the 70s he was a burden in the SSB ... Neither the range, nor the rate of fire, nor the protection of the calculations ... And the base on Gaz-66 ... The battalion commander constantly complained of pain in the spine ... Once they brought him to the armored personnel carrier, so he ran for half a day, as if stung ...
Firstly Secondly Thirdly...
Eugene! If the president does not fundamentally change the structure of the economy in the country, if I once again see this face in dark glasses covering shameless eyes, if hundreds of economists daily talk about the harm of the resource economy and the benefits of developing domestic production, and as a result, the Sukhoi airliner factory Superjet New ONLY this year is planning its "roll-out" with the subsequent transition to serial production of UP TO 20 MACHINES PER YEAR !!! (India signed a contract with France for the supply of 250 Airbuses) ...
In short ... The gap is not visible !!!
* * *
Even about some high-ranking military commanders, not to mention the minister, who did not go from soldier to general, one can say:

That is why the soldier's ingenuity is manifested in all its breadth, the best wishes of the authors, military experts and other people to whom the interests of the country are more important than profits and belongings located abroad ...
Let's continue to persuade and ask "kind" patrons to help... This is the most "sure" and the only way... that the Russian authorities can offer...

[alekseykabanets]

Unfortunately, they know perfectly well what they "want", only their desires run counter to the interests of the majority of the country's population. So, but the answer to the question of what to do with it falls under a number of articles of the Criminal Code.

[Konstantin 2.0]

Until recently, he remained only a reader of materials on VO. But recently, a series of articles from various authors, especially from Roman Skomorokhov, left me no choice how to express my opinion. What is the meaning of most recent publications? The fact that everything is x * rovo! In everything. Artillery, fleet aviation, small arms, planning, command and control, etc. by the list. And in the comments to these articles, weeping and howling. And commentators furiously plus each other. Honestly this is getting boring. Where is the objectivity? Are there any problems in our army? Yes, definitely! Should we talk about them? Definitely needed! Only in this case it is required to cover the issue from all sides! From the last thing I remember. About artillery on Acacia. They're all crap. The guys on Msta S are better. But not a word about it. Only one suggestion. But how fucked is the whole article on Acacia. The same goes for volunteers. This article is similar. On what basis does the author base his conclusions? On photos from the Internet? From groups in the telegram? Where are the numbers? Where is their analysis? Where are the specifics? And it turns out, I'm an artist, I see it that way. Naturally, for a good article, you need to shovel a lot of information. And an article of this level can be assembled in a couple of evenings. And so on down the list. I'm just wondering, how are the tasks then performed? How is progress going on at the front? Just don’t tell me about the stamina and courage of the rank and file or the mountains of corpses and all that. How do guys do their job with crooked machines? Maybe they're just not all curves? Then write specifically that such and such a m * duck specifically gave me a specific machine gun. And then according to such articles there is not quite the correct impression. Where are the cycles of articles, what is happening with our opponents? Please note that we are at war with an army that we have been preparing for 8 years. Not someone there, but an enemy not inferior to us in strength. Where are the reviews of their mistakes? Our mistakes are in all the media at once. All the experts are great and those who yesterday became ready to express their opinion. Where are the articles about our improvements, new tactics, about people and heroes, finally?! Many people like to remember about the USSR and how satisfying and good it was there. And at the same time, you do not get tired of blaming that a lot of good things were hushed up and it was necessary to widely cover and talk about achievements and people. Are you any better now? As a result, I can say that there is no smell of objectivity in VO now. It seems that the resource is now at the forefront of how to attract more audience. And as you know the bad, always! garners more than good attention.

[Bogalex]

So write, set an example. What is the problem?

[Boris55]

Quote: Bogalex

So write, set an example. What is the problem?

Such articles do not comply with the policy of the site administration. Tried a couple of times. They got to the bottom of one, as it were, grammatical error and the article was rejected. I don't try any more.

[Bogalex]

Come on! Ryabov succeeds, but you don't? Do not make me laugh.

[Konstantin 2.0]

Is there anything to be said about the commentary?

[alekseykabanets]

Quote: Konstantin 2.0

Is there anything to be said about the commentary?

Let's try.)))

Quote: Konstantin 2.0

It seems that the resource is now at the forefront of how to attract more audience. And as you know the bad, always! garners more than good attention.

The purpose of any resource is to attract an audience. The site is full of urapatriotic articles too, much more than critical ones, it is strange that you did not pay attention to them, apparently they are not interesting to read?

Quote: Konstantin 2.0

What is the meaning of most recent publications? The fact that everything is x * rovo! In everything. Artillery, fleet aviation, small arms, planning, command and control, etc. by the list. And in the comments to these articles, weeping and howling. And commentators furiously plus each other.

As I understand it, this is your main complaint.))) And you apparently think that "everything is fine and going according to plan, but there are also some shortcomings"? So I will disappoint you, this "non-war" is like a surgeon opening an abscess with a scalpel, just like that, it showed in all its glory the full power of our "second army of the world", our "mighty import-substituting" economy. And the most important thing is that she showed that none of the bosses is punished for failures, and will never be punished. That as Russian moneybags traded with the enemy, so they trade and will trade no matter what. She showed that sooner or later all ordinary people capable of bearing arms would be sent there, but the children of officials and moneybags would remain at their warm feeders. In general, there is much more to write, but I think this will be enough for now. Did I answer you on the merits of the comment?

[Alexga]

The purpose of any resource is to attract an audience.

Alexey, the country is at war, and talking about these topics while sitting on the couch is at least immoral.

[alekseykabanets]

Quote: AlexGa

Alexey, the country is at war, and talking about these topics while sitting on the couch is at least immoral.

What country and what war? And if the country is at war, then why is it trading with the enemy? Something I don’t remember that Stalin would sell diesel fuel to Hitler in 1942. Is it immoral to talk about this? Or the fact that those who work with the resource also do not feed on the holy spirit, they have the same children, mortgages, etc., and the resource should attract visitors with interesting material is immoral? No Alexander, even if we are still sitting on the couch, it is not immoral to talk about all this.

[Konstantin 2.0]

That is, you refuse to admit that our country is now fighting? Just don’t turn on naivety and answer that it’s yours now, etc. We all see perfectly what is happening. And further in the comment, you smoothly lead to the fact that the resource was created to meet the financial needs of its creators. And if you develop this idea, then it turns out that if the audience wants to see a certain point of view, they will see it. After all, these are views, comments, quoting, money. Do you understand that with such a formulation of the question of objectivity, there can be no question?

[alekseykabanets]

Quote: Konstantin 2.0

And further in the comment, you smoothly lead to the fact that the resource was created to meet the financial needs of its creators.

So we have capitalism, my dear man, we even create textbooks to meet someone's financial needs.))) After all, this is not open source software, and even financial issues do not bypass there. Lenin printed Iskra and printed advertising materials there because no one eats the holy spirit, we do not live under communism.

Quote: Konstantin 2.0

That is, you refuse to admit that our country is now fighting? Just don’t turn on naivety and answer that it’s yours now, etc.

Country you say? Someone in a trench feeds lice and exposes their heads to bullets, and someone trades oil and metal with the enemy. So it turns out some different countries for those who are in the trenches and those who trade.)))

[Konstantin 2.0]

Well then, of course, whoever has dinner with a girl dances her. How cleverly you turn everything around. For VO it means capitalism and everything is correct. And for business and people in the trenches, different countries are obtained. You already decide that then we have capitalism or what is beneficial for you to see at the moment)

[Alexga]

..even if we are still sitting on the couch, talking about all this is not immoral.

Your logic is interesting. It is clear that morality for each individual person is an individual concept, but as I understand it, everyone is free to think about it in their own way. You say that the system in the country is rotten, but it is so at the age of 91. You say that the country is trading with the enemy, yes, I do not argue, but maybe there is no other way out to extract financial resources to continue the fight against the enemy. Yes, the kids at the top are not in the country. All this is obvious, but tell me that the SVO should not have been started? Or awareness will come when some ukrofascist comes to the threshold of your house. And Russia was thrown back from the exits to the non-freezing ports of the Atlantic around the beginning of the 18th century. And you cannot change the country now, even if the current regime is bad. There is no other now. And now there is a war with enemies, no matter how they call it.

[alekseykabanets]

Quote: AlexGa

And Russia was thrown back from the exits to the non-freezing ports of the Atlantic around the beginning of the 18th century.

Americans are different?

Quote: AlexGa

You say that the system in the country is rotten, but it is so at the age of 91. You say that the country is trading with the enemy, yes, I do not argue, but maybe there is no other way out to extract financial resources to continue the fight against the enemy.

That is, to trade with the enemy in order to continue to fight with the enemy. It’s a pity Stalin didn’t know about this know-how.)))

Quote: AlexGa

even if the current regime is bad. There is no other now. And now there is a war with enemies, no matter how they call it.

And who, I’m embarrassed to ask, has a war with enemies, you or those who trade? And who started it, you or those who trade? Who spawned the Nazis? Are they not the ones who trade?

[xunno]

Your while sitting on the couch dragged on. If you are young and healthy, take a dupa in your palm and go ahead as a volunteer or a volunteer. Whine and criticize your own power in noneshnye conditions, parodont, not comme il faut.

[alekseykabanets]

Quote from xunno

If you are young and healthy, take a dupa in your palm and go ahead as a volunteer or a volunteer.

I hope you are writing to me from the trench?

Quote from xunno

Whine and criticize your own power in noneshnye conditions, parodont, not comme il faut.

And when, in your opinion, will it become "comme il faut"?)))

Quote from xunno

Your while sitting on the couch dragged on

I don't think so, I have a lot of things to do at home.)))

[dump22]

country at war

Who told you this? The president? Minister of Defense? Thought? Council of the Federation?
Don't invent. There is no war, period.
There is only SVO, and from the very beginning it goes exclusively "according to plan."

https://www.ntv.ru/novosti/2742841/

15.01.2023
Putin: SVO is proceeding according to the plan of the Ministry of Defense and the General Staff

Vladimir Putin, President of the Russian Federation: “The dynamics are positive. Everything is developing within the framework of the plan of the Ministry of Defense and the General Staff. I hope that our fighters will please us more than once with their results of combat work.”

[Oleg Ogorod]

Well, the president himself called it a war in public. They say this war must be ended.

[dump22]

You did not understand the context of the president's statement.
He called war what the Ukrainian regime is doing.
It is they who have a war going on there and it is their time to end their war as soon as possible.

Putin said "end the war": the president spoke about a deep understanding of the NWO
... "Our goal is not to spin this flywheel of a military conflict, but, on the contrary, to end this war: we are striving for this and will continue to strive"

But we have only NWO and there is no war.

[Konstantin 2.0]

No, they didn't. Where in the commentary do I say that everything is fine? Where do I say that problems should be hushed up? You only see what you want to see. And to see, judging by your comment, you only want the bad. Your right. And I want to see an objective picture. From all sides. The world, believe me, is not only black and white. And I will answer your key. Where are the articles about the successful operations of their commanders? Where are the articles about heroism and exploits? Only not posthumous, although this does not beg for a feat. And live, healthy guys. Where are the articles about technology that shows itself perfectly in its own way?

[alekseykabanets]

Quote: Konstantin 2.0

Where are the articles about the successful operations of their commanders? Where are the articles about heroism and exploits? ...

Right now on the main page of the site https://topwar.ru/211101-predstavitel-dnr-zajavil-o-vzjatii-rossijskimi-silami-kljuchevyh-vysot-vokrug-artemovska.html and even today there were several similar articles.

Quote: Konstantin 2.0

You only see what you want to see. And to see, judging by your comment, you only want the bad.

You see that there are some shortcomings, but I see that the system is rotten.

[Konstantin 2.0]

Do you understand the difference between an analytical article and a news article? But you seem to be a systems expert. And this question is not for you.

[Derbes19]

So write an article! Anyone can write an article on this resource. I can offer one more option. Turn on the TV, find the channel "Star". Everything is fine with us, five minutes of viewing and you will feel better.

[Konstantin 2.0]

The first time I kept silent, I will answer you, you do not tell me what to do, I will not tell you where to go.

[Mitrich73]

I support your opinion with two hands. The problem with the authors is that their rating depends on the number of reads of the article. It is very difficult to write an objective article and it will not arouse mass interest, but it is easy and simple to write "darkness", albeit unsubstantiated, but angry and accusatory. Reading such articles, one wonders where the author has so much statistical material to draw conclusions from? Maybe he is admitted to the documents of the General Staff? I think not, they just collect the opinions of individual commentators and issue an article in the style of "pissed off all the polymers."

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Konstantin 2.0

On what basis does the author base his conclusions? On photos from the Internet? From groups in the telegram? Where are the numbers? Where is their analysis? Where are the specifics?

Specifically, surprisingly , the article just has it.
Three types of self-propelled mortars of our power structures are listed - as many as three pieces. And it is indicated that one of them is available only to the Vovans, the second - only to the Airborne Forces. And the landmen were left with only a rather rare 2S23, which was lit up in the Tuva brigade.
True, the author forgot about 2S34, which, it seems, even more were produced than 2S23.

Quote: Konstantin 2.0

As a result, I can say that there is no smell of objectivity in VO now.

Seriously? That is, as long as we are regularly told about our successes and new technology at VO, everything is fine. But as soon as an article appeared that talks about the problem and shows how to solve it using the example of other countries, that's it. dislike and unsubscribe denigration and belittling.

[Konstantin 2.0]

If you can form an opinion about what is happening in the troops and at the front based on these specifics, then I take my hat off to you. Yes, while the articles came out with views on what was happening from different angles, it was more interesting to read, at least. With my comment, I indicated only the direction in which the VO is rolling. But this is just my opinion. And here's the rebuttal? In any case, I will remain a visitor to this resource. I hope that the situation will improve in the future.

[Alexga]

Thanks for the comment. Very accurate and well reasoned. Reading many comments here, I have a question: "Does Russia know that its army is at war?" From serious events on the pages of VO they make a show. It is strange that personalities like Khodakovsky and Strelkov become the greatest experts. Ale, people, but you are not embarrassed by the fact that these individuals have nothing to do with the events in Donbas since 2015, they are fighting only on the Internet. So to speak, Fighters of the media front. How can this happen in a healthy society?! Criticism of the state leadership at all levels. So, people, go back not 32 years ago, remember how the so-called defenders of the White House jumped in 1991, how everyone tried to get rich during the time of voucher privatization, how the country's military-industrial complex collapsed due to conversion. Here are the results of those acts, the state is reaping the rewards. So, gentlemen, ask questions, first of all, not to VVP and Shoigu, but to the owners of awards like "Defender of Free Russia".

[Derbes19]

32 years reaping the benefits??? So, for example, look at neighboring China. What it was 32 years ago and what it is now. No. The leadership of the country did not get behind the wheel yesterday, and the questions should be asked to him.

[alekseykabanets]

Quote from xunno

Tiananmen. This is the recipe for China's current prosperity.

On Tiananmen Square, the supporters of the liberal economic model were destroyed, if you don’t know, but the supporters of liberal economic reforms won in our country, they are in power now.

[wladimirjankov]

[quoteWhere are the reviews of their mistakes? Our mistakes are in all the media at once.] [/ Quote]
Why should we analyze the mistakes of the enemy? Why doesn't he make them anymore? We would like to deal with ours. And buffoons do everything right. There is a specific problem - faulty, incomplete and unprepared self-propelled guns were sent to the front. A specific member of the crew of this self-propelled gun speaks about this, lists its specific malfunctions. This is an outrageous fact. Roman Skomorokhov writes about this, gives it publicity and publicity. And if this is not done, then no one will bother to solve these problems, and even more so to hold someone accountable for this. And so at least there is some hope that these issues will be resolved. We cannot remain silent about the mistakes and failures of the command, our defeats and mess. We must always say what is in reality and our reality, and not what we would like to hear and see. In most of Skomorokhov's articles, there is no desire to hype, gloat, trample on our sores, but there is a desire to identify them, bring them to the attention of society and those people who should eliminate them.

[Konstantin 2.0]

Agree! Problems need to be talked about. And then try to solve the problem. Honestly, I really wanted the guys after this article to have at least something changed for the better. And Roman would tell us about it. And several questions arise. First, is there anything going on beyond accusatory articles? Perhaps he helps the guys solve the problems he writes about. Or the guys themselves are fighting for themselves, and he covers this, does not let the problem be hushed up. What happens next? I'm not saying that Roman is obliged to solve all problems. Or I tell him what he should do. No. I just want to understand the meaning of these articles. What is their goal? And the second question. Does Roman have many articles in a positive way?

[Derbes19]

The purpose of articles is to tell the truth. Is this not enough for you?

[Konstantin 2.0]

Do you understand that without further action, this truth works against us? And it doesn't matter if it's true or not.

[nickname7]

Where are the reviews of their mistakes?

Do you want to teach the APU to fight better?

[Konstantin 2.0]

And in the analysis of our mistakes, we do not teach everyone how to fight better?

[Boris55]

Quote: E. Fedorov

hope for the corresponding strong-willed decision of the leadership. For example, Dmitry Medvedev,

On whom, on whom is there hope? For Medvedev?

Is it the one that: "There is no money, but you hold on"? Is this the one who sent a bill to the Duma on which the retirement age was stupidly raised? Is this the one that ruined civil aviation? Is this the one who broke contracts with Iran and Libya, leaving factories without contracts and workers without a means of coexistence? This is the one who gave the fishing grounds to Norway, etc. - DO NOT MAKE ME LAUGH.

This one will sell everything, without exception, and he wanted to spit on the country and on all of us.
For Medvedev, the sun rises in the West.

About our mortars on "wheels":

[Bogalex]

I liked the article, thanks to the author.
On my own behalf, I will add that the roots of the problem that has arisen today with the mobility of battalion artillery lie not in the design of weapons, but in the methods of their use.
120-mm mortars, in the form that we have, were not created for independent actions on the battlefield, i.e. duels with their own kind, but as a mass (and therefore as cheap as possible) means of supporting the actions of motorized riflemen. The mortar was supposed to be in the battle formations of the battalion, ZAKOPAN, its position was equipped with slots for sheltering personnel, magazines for ammunition and built into the BRO (battalion defense area) so that you can still find it with the same UAV. The mortar manifests itself not suddenly and not alone, but in the course of active actions of motorized riflemen, when the enemy, I apologize, is no longer up to searching for a separate mortar.
Alas, none of this exists today.
As for the described technology, the product 2K32 from the ROC "Virgo" was excluded long before its completion. And there were quite good reasons for that, connected primarily with the loading of the chassis - it could not stand it. It's just for you and me to shove a mortar into an MT-LB or BMP from our sofa - a couple of trifles. The reality is much more cruel. And although the Burevestnik somehow managed to bring the prototype to the letter O1 (possibly through the National Guard), it simply does not exist for the RF Armed Forces.
"Drok", when it appears in the troops, will be cursed by calculations. I won't say anything more about him.
I managed to sit in "Highlander" personally. The car is very interesting and, despite some shortcomings, is not without prospects. A sort of Russian "Wiesel-2", whose ears stick out quite clearly from the Perm development. However, alas, by the time work began on promising battalion artillery in 2015, it was too late. Perhaps the realities of today will give him a second chance - we'll see.
Well, the most important thing. In fact, there is nothing good in handicraft "finishing" regular trucks and MT-LB for the placement of mortar weapons. Artillery must not only shoot in the direction of the target, it must hit it - this is its main task. I understand that not from a good life and "for not having a better one", but still. The mortar has not yet been mounted on samples of light infantry fighting vehicles / armored personnel carriers, not from the laziness and stupidity of our engineers, but from the inconsistency of the resulting crafts with the requirements of the Ministry of Defense, which were also not born from scratch.
Can these requirements be ignored? Of course you can!
But today we have a really standard example of the consequences of neglecting all sorts of snips and wheezes - thousands of earthquake victims in Turkey are precisely due to the construction of houses with violations of project documentation standards. And right there, in the center of the earthquake-prone area, the city of Erzin, where no one was injured as a result of the earthquakes on February 6 and not a single building collapsed - the mayor and his predecessors, as it turned out today, turned out to be surprisingly intractable in matters of compliance with building codes.
Summing up, the self-propelled mortar in the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation was created and brought to the series - 2S23 "Nona-SVK". It does not have an expensive chassis, unlike the 2S9 Nona-S. We need to simplify it further - put a pipe from 2B11 instead of a combined gun. The inability to fire 120-mm projectiles of the 3OF49 type will not greatly affect its performance characteristics - there is no need for their mass use at the battalion level. And all sorts of "Phloxes" are better left for parades.

[Georgy Sviridov_2]

In general, I agree ... Although it would be nice to have a unified version, when towed, which could work "from the wheels" if not bypassed, but also be removed from the car and put on a prepared position.

[Bogalex]

"Highlander" is just that, by the way.

[Georgy Sviridov_2]

Well, I wrote in another post the truth is that it looks rational on a tiger.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Your comment from the category began "for health", and ended "for peace."
MTLB chassis do not hold the recoil of the 82-mm 2K32 mortar from the Deva ROC? Do not tell, yes, but only 120 mm does not hold, it sways.
Limited use is associated with the specifics of the 82-mm mortar, left only for mountain brigades.
The armored personnel carrier chassis for the 2S23 "Nona-SVK" is not so cheap. The "Phlox" you scolded and has an even cheaper chassis, and it can carry substantial ammunition with it, and it is more convenient for the crew there.
And the 82-mm "Drok", which you did not like, just has the same pipe instead of a combined gun. And this is an ideal vehicle for escorting and escorting, together with armored cars armed with 30-mm cannons.
The 120-mm "Highlander" car is good, but they made a mistake with the chassis, the capacity is too small to transport ammunition. In modern conditions of the vulnerability of artillery depots, the disadvantage is significant.

[Bogalex]

Your comment is from the category "I have not seen samples in my eyes, but I have an opinion."
The MTLB chassis does not hold the recoil of the 82-mm mortar, which is being developed in the Deva ROC. This is an established fact.
The 82-mm mortar was left not only for the mountain brigades, but also for the airborne forces.
"Phlox", in view of the need for its reservation and refinement of the chassis for the use of artillery units of the 2A80 type, is never cheap, but how much more convenient it is to work on it for a crew that is open to all winds - ask those who fell under enemy retaliatory fire.
You didn't sit in "Droka", apparently. No comments.
"Highlander" was conceived as a complex. The problem of insufficient ammunition capacity (although this is a very controversial issue initially, as for me - there is quite a sane capacity) the SM itself was solved there quite simply and effectively, but I will not discuss it until a decision is made to continue work on this product, I will not.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

We will remain with our own, for me your arguments are water full.
Take, for example, the thesis about the high cost of the Phlox chassis with a support equipped with practically household hydraulics, against the chassis of the Nona-SVK armored personnel carrier without supports at all, cramped and with the same weak protection.

[Bogalex]

Let's stay. Your arguments are not water, but, apparently, time-tested and practice-tested arguments, right?
The Phlox chassis is not the Ural chassis. I understand that you are not aware, but the opinion about "practically household hydraulic support" causes a smile to say the least.
The fact that it is still cheaper than the armored personnel carrier chassis, I do not argue. It is a fact.
However, which is better, to work outside the "Ural" or inside the "cramped" 2S23 (again, it is obvious that you did not work inside the "Nona-SVK") - the question for me personally was resolved a long time ago. Working with a towed gun has always been more comfortable than with a self-propelled one. but not always safer, right?

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

I hasten to disappoint, the safety of the calculation does not consist only in working from under bulletproof armor. There is also a factor in the speed of crew evacuation, calculation. So, at Nona-SVK, the situation with the evacuation of the crew is much worse than at the Phlox CJSC with a multi-door cabin. And due to the greater range, shooting can be carried out from more distant positions.
And the thesis of excessive range does not hold water. In conditions of difficult interaction, range, even at the battalion level, is very important.

[Bogalex]

So at Nona-SVK with the evacuation of the crew, the situation is much worse than at the Phlox SAO with a multi-door cabin

Are you seriously? Is avoiding sudden enemy fire at Nona-SVK "much worse" than at SAO Phlox with a multi-door cab? Can you explain why?

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

This refers to the speed of leaving the car itself. From the discussion, as before, I think that the harm from you is much more than good, with the general literacy of the comments.
The theses about the usefulness of a mortar on a cramped armored personnel carrier chassis, the sufficiency of the range of a conventional mortar, and the earlier opinion about the "Vasilka" as a waste of ammunition, to put it mildly, are strange.
If you give a choice of two options, one is infantry in a truck, and a 120-mm mortar on an armored personnel carrier chassis, the other is infantry on an BTR-82A, and a mortar in the back of a truck. I am sure the vast majority will choose the BTR-82A, and the mortar in the back of a truck.
The economy of war does not particularly provide a choice, therefore a mortar on a truck chassis, and not an armored personnel carrier.

[Bogalex]

Since when has the speed of leaving the car become a component of the performance characteristics of an artillery weapon model ??? Do you read what you write?

From the discussion, as before, I think that the harm from you is much more than good, with the general literacy of the comments.

From you, in this case, there is simply a lot of harm in the complete absence of benefit and literacy of comments in principle.

[xunno]

What battalion? What mortars? 120 mm mortars in the battle formations of the battalion? You carefully consider the staff of the m / s battalion. There are three Tray fire squads there. 82 mm in battle formations can even work for semi-direct fire (though not for long, because you want to in battle formations). How to use these mortars is decided by the battalion commander. Do you, dear, represent the battle formations of the battalion on the defensive? No? Battalion defense area up to 5 km along the front up to 3 km in depth. Depends on many factors. Terrain, separation, etc. The key here is 3 km in depth. 120 mm mortar throws roughly 8 km. and its exhaust is not bad. Put it in the battle formations of the battalion (I remind you at most 3 km from the front) they will see and devour whether you are on a caterpillar, on wheels or on a scooter ..
And now about logistics and all sorts of rear affairs. As far as I remember, the BC 120mm mortar 80 min (I don’t want to remember how much the gun has, but not all 80. It’s not the point) Large boxes of 2 mines in each. Capping dimensions, weight can be found on the Internet. If you wish, you can calculate how much equipment a battalion needs to bring mines to at least a 6-gun battery (the tonnage of the transport does not dance. The volume of the body and the height of the side are important.). 82 mm mortar - 120 minutes per barrel, how much with a mortar. Much smaller boxes of 10 min. It is easier to move both boxes and mortar in the battle formations of the battalion.
And the last. Mortarmen in a motorized infantry battalion are motorized infantry. And the 120-current mortars are artillery and it can only reinforce individual battalions, and it is no longer the battalion commander who decides which units, from what positions, and to what extent they will work.

[Bogalex]

He wrote a lot, but why and what did he himself understand? What did you want to say?

[erased]

The phrase about the strong-willed decision of the leadership amused me. Since when does leadership have a will?

[Konnick]

But where is this technique in a special operation?

We have not even put automatic grenade launchers on infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers, and this is much more effective than the capricious 2A42 30mm. This automatic cannon requires armored vehicles to go out for direct fire, which is fraught, and the AGS allows you to work from a closed position. On the video, it shoots beautifully at the training ground, but in real hostilities it does not particularly manifest itself.

[Bogalex]

Come on you. The BMP-1PG was adopted by the Soviet army in the late 70s. And, if it not only did not become widespread, but also did not receive its continuation in the BMP-2 and BMP-3, maybe the reason lies precisely in the inefficiency of such modernization?

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

The low efficiency of the grenade launcher on the turret was apparently due to the lack of a then cheap and reliable sensor for the vertical position of the barrel, subject to automation for guidance. I'm not sure if the issue has been resolved yet.
Since, alas and ah, something similar is observed, the absence of a separate drive.

[Bogalex]

Quite possible. In this matter, I am not an expert.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

There is no need to be an expert here. Most likely, the AGS was fitted to the BMP-1 turret during the fighting of the OKSVA in Afghanistan. Back then, GPS signal calculators were huge boxes. And it was impossible to make a sensor based on the GPS signal, as now the Arabs in the Middle East, to determine the angle, a smartphone is applied to the mortar barrel without a sight.
The ancient bubble tilt sensor directly, for an electric drive, cannot be counted. Need electronic or electric.
It may very well be that the barrel position sensor is more complicated than that in a smartphone or in general on a different principle, but the idea is this.

[Demon_is_ada]

I apologize of course, but there are no problems about the bubble level. We fill it with mercury or electrolyte and stuff the paired contacts. Lots of options, no chips. If you pervert, then you can ensure shooting on the move
And I think, to quickly saturate the troops, you can use the BMP 1, just don’t cut anything, and use the integrated ramp loader from the back with a base plate and at least two barrels. When transporting mortars with a plate on the roof, when firing, they lower themselves onto the ground on a single plate, the doors open, there is a crew and a bk and one and a half meters from the box to the barrel.
The fact that automate the binding and aiming at the target is the main task.
If necessary, mortars can be used as wearable. There will be no such problems.
And stuffing a simple mortar into any boxes is insanity, it will break through with recoil, and making it recoil is expensive, weight, etc., etc.

[Bogalex]

There is no need to be an expert here.

Great principle. Most of the articles and comments on "VO" are based on it.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

But experts at harm consider you sufficient firing range of a bare tube of a 120-mm mortar, in an armored personnel carrier with a turret. Alas, after that it is difficult to consider you a specialist, for sure, a military man.
And what about the sensor is wrong? I guess there is nothing to say to the specialist. And there is no secret here.

[Bogalex]

Sergey, what is the range of reconnaissance in the battalion to solve the tasks that are urgent to it?

[Bogalex]

But experts at harm consider you sufficient firing range of a bare tube of a 120-mm mortar, in an armored personnel carrier with a turret.

If you do not know how to understand the text you read, it is better not to write anything about it than to spin nonsense.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

How did you undertake to promote a bare mortar tube, forgetting that ready-made rifling to increase accuracy, which is insufficient for a conventional mine without rifling? And how can a real specialist not know that the range of Nona in the Airborne Forces was not enough when they were left without a D-30 howitzer?
Who's talking nonsense here?

[Bogalex]

Well, let's start by telling me where I "promote a bare pipe." If you read my messages carefully, and not in a drunken stupor, I spoke about the possibility of replacing a gun with ready-made rifling with a 2B11 mortar tube exclusively in the context of the cheapness of converting standard chassis for self-propelled mortars in a short time. The fact that you did not understand this is not a discovery for me.
The artillery firing range of the Airborne Forces turned out to be insufficient at the BRIGADE level, and not at the battalion level. But of course, for you, as a true specialist, this is an insignificant trifle.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Actually, now they are trying to make the Epoch module with a 57-mm low ballistics gun. But trying to shove a grenade launcher into an infantry fighting vehicle instead of a 30-mm cannon, you need to think about it before ! A grenade launcher can be attached to the tower as additional weapons, if such a desire appears.
And if you dealt with both the 2A42 and the AGS-17 "Flame", you would also know about the capriciousness of the automatic grenade launcher, too, and to no lesser extent. It was not in vain that they tried and are trying to introduce the 40-mm Balkan grenade launcher into the troops, where the mechanics should be more reliable in operation, due to the absence of a sleeve.

[Alexga]

And if you were dealing with both 2A42 and AGS-17 "Flame", you would also know about the capriciousness of an automatic grenade launcher too

Unfortunately, for most of the local residents, these samples should shoot, and only a few know about failures.

[xunno]

Have you seen the AGS live? TTX read? Shot from it? If you are far from these matters and all your knowledge is drawn from the Internet, then it would be better for you not to criticize so thoughtlessly. Capricious 30 millimeter paper? Maybe this gun has flaws, but talking about the AGS as a miracle weapon is ridiculous, if not stupid. Look at TTX. Range, spread, ammo efficiency. Of course, foolishly crawling out under an ATGM and sanding it into the horizon is one thing, it’s another thing to put a short one in a semi-basement window or knock off some kind of zealous machine gunner ... AGS is good at shooting at squares at open enemy manpower and its VOG 17 ammunition is weaker than high-explosive fragmentation 30 mm shot.

[james]

I've once called a shame "sunset by hand." so completely downvoted.

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[Georgy Sviridov_2]

On the one hand, heavy systems such as 120 mm or 82 mm Vasilek must be motorized, on the other hand, they cannot all be replaced by the same Nona-SVK, because, in defense, it is easier to bury it, store ammunition nearby in a dugout and equip several such interchangeable positions in battalion defense area. On the offensive, let's say in urban battles, the towed version is also interesting ... There, of course, more than 82mm mortars are good, since they are often placed on the penultimate floor of a building, they make a hole in the roof and work through this hole, but large mortars are also in demand. Especially in big cities. It is banal that any entrance to the metro, even just an underpass, is actually a protected position for a mortar battery with several positions for guns. The concept at the motorcycle league is understandable, but in general it’s also cool on the Tiger ... Mobile, but at the same time protected artillery. And then on the situation. You work either "from the wheels" or you unload and put it on a prepared position. What-no but the tiger has armor.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

As for the motorization of the 120-mm mortar, I want to challenge the idea. There is either a pipe with a stove, or a "Highlander" on a car chassis. Do nothing in between.
But I will support the idea to revive the 82-mm "Cornflower". There are two options. First, install on the Ural chassis from CJSC "Flox". The second is to make a cart on four wheels like the S-60, and also put the engine from the Zaporozhets, like on anti-tank guns, as a generator to use in positions for charging drones and powering the electronic warfare system. If you put on the Ural chassis, then it is desirable to carry out modernization to increase the firing range according to the Chinese model.

[Alexga]

First, install on the Ural chassis

It is not difficult to install, it is difficult to hit the target from this sample. Yes, it is possible to create a sea of ​​​​fire from it, but the efficiency is about zero .. In recent years, they began to install ZU-23-2 on cars, but it is difficult to create a firing course. For accurate shooting, the car must be put on supports, and only the first projectile can hit the target, and the rest go higher.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

The chassis of the SAO "Floks" based on the "Ural" has an emphasis with hydraulics, where is the problem with the support and accuracy of fire?

[Alexga]

Regarding Phlox, the conversation is generally separate, how an experimental machine is still suitable, how a combat issue is debatable. Large, open, shoots close. I had Nona, the rate of fire is lower, but mobility, security is much higher.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Increased mobility for tracked mortars was abandoned, both Khosta and Vena were rejected, only for the landing force an exception was made in the form of Lotus. So, we immediately discard the tracked chassis, and there is a 122-mm Gvozdika self-propelled gun there.
Only Nona-SVK and SAO Phlox remain in comparison. The first sample does have higher cross-country ability, but the Phlox wins in terms of ammunition load, guidance automation and a firing range of up to 13 km. And about the significantly higher security of Nona-SVK, this is a stretch. Judging by the description, only the loader remains outside the armored cockpit on the Phlox.

[d.zacharith]

Here is a link to a video where, quite reasonably, the advantages and disadvantages of a 120 mm mortar on a wheeled chassis are analyzed in comparison with tracks
https://youtu.be/oPk-G8gYy1c

[APASUS]

You read the material, tears well up.

Nice car but pricey.

Is it expensive in our state? We gave 300 billion to the West, we are building the Olympics, rallies, summits, accepting world championships and there is no money for a mortar with a car chassis ..............

[Dimax-nemo]

The best fish is sausage. The best 120mm mortar is Nona. The Chinese have been making self-propelled Cornflower for a long time. And don't try to convince me otherwise. It makes no sense to put a muzzle-loading barrel on a self-propelled gun without recoil devices. Among other things, this is the killing of a chassis with a loss of accuracy (MTLB, by the way, is by no means an ideal base for self-propelled guns), if without ground support. Leave the classic mortars to the infantry, which in terms of their tasks is very limited in technology. Panzergrenadiers don't need it. Expensive? Was it cheap to shove 152-mm howitzers into regiments (which later became brigades)? At the same time, tank barrels would be saved, Nona would shoot at the same distances in every way more accurately than tank smoothbore, and would withstand much more. The BMP-1 chassis, as the author rightly noted, is the most suitable for conversion into battalion self-propelled guns, like mud, so if this tower climbed onto the BTR-D, then it would fit on the BMP-1 "somehow."
PS, if I'm not confusing anything, in the "2C12 Sani complex" a mortar is pulled into the "Shishgu" with a winch.

[Alexga]

PS, if I don’t confuse anything, in the “2S12 Sani complex” the mortar is pulled into the “Shishgu” with a winch

Yes, there is special rigging equipment for loading a mortar in the back.

[Dimax-nemo]

And the author wants to say that loading a mortar with a winch takes longer than fiddling with towed howitzers? Again, for short distances it is allowed to tow the mortar on the hook.

[Ronino]

Along the way, towed artillery has become obsolete ... With such a presence of satellites and UAVs, in addition to counter-battery systems, it simply cannot survive ... It was necessary to think and make the right decisions the day before yesterday ...

[malyvalv]

Therefore, the best mortar now is a tank and not all sorts of Nona and Cornflowers.

[vvn_vl]

but we have a new, but incomprehensible form, parades, partisan villages, tank biathlon, temples and so on .. I forgot: even in Kronstadt, the minister’s daughter fusses about the forts - spuds the garden

[Oleg Ogorod]

We have many research institutes and design bureaus that were supposed to develop concepts and models of military equipment. Take the Central Research Institute 46 of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation. In which there are a lot of doctors of sciences, there are also academicians. Whose salary and benefits are fantastic in comparison with life in the country of the bulk of the people.
Only now a military operation, not even a war, has shown that they are worth a penny.
In general, in recent recent years, Arta was considered by them a relic of the past, which should not be produced and developed. This also applied to barrel artillery, which includes mortars, and rocket artillery, such as hail and tornadoes. They say we have iskanders, they are accurate and powerful. Only fabulously expensive, both launchers and missiles.
But if we return to the topic, then all the shown samples of equipment on various chassis are not ice, in my opinion. One barrel on a heavy chassis, and even with manual loading, this is probably strange.
Tactics quickly fired back and left, with one barrel, this is probably a dead end.
Why can't you cross a grass snake and a hedgehog? Mortar and multibarreled hail? He fired a dozen pre-loaded mines in a row and quickly disappeared.
The striped ones in peakless caps have similar settings.
"Reactive bomber installation-6000", name - "Smerch-2" - Soviet jet-powered naval bomber with a stationary two-plane homing installation with twelve radially arranged barrels.
However, the land forces have all sorts of Pinocchio-Suns, who should destroy all life in the enemy's trenches.
But they are heavy.
And how many of them are involved in the operation, it is difficult to say. Once the enemy is still sitting in the trenches.
And if you need to shoot only one mine per hour, then the mortar in the trench should probably not be moved to wheels. Here, to make an automatic calculation of guidance, this should have been done a long time ago.

[Demon]

To finish the existing one, you just need to put a high-speed winch in the body, a more advanced option is a tail lift in order to save the strength of the fighters for the constant shortening of mortars into the body. And to quickly leave the OP to the nearest forest or to the spare OP, an ATV is enough, they can also carry out a quick delivery of ammunition to the front end. Although knowing the army realities of peacetime, everything that is not all-metal and not tightly welded breaks or disappears.
By the way, the author confuses the role of battalion mortars with nomadic guns, so most of the article is sucked from the finger. If you put them on a self-propelled chassis, firstly they will become more expensive, secondly, they will be much more noticeable, thirdly, they will be a priority goal, and fourthly, their operation will become much more complicated.

[Radical]

Quote: Konstantin 2.0

Please note that we are at war with the army that we have been preparing for 8 years ..

Who stopped us from doing this?

[tank66]

of course, not a mortar, but a tanker ... but I’m fantasizing not from scratch ... I’ve been capitalizing on equipment for Transneft for several years ... and so: if I were given the task URGENTLY to issue 300 self-propelled mortars to the FRONT / say, for 2 weeks \ - I would take from the oil and gas workers, and without loss for them, tractors of the TTM-3902 type, or analogues .... + requisitioned d-245 engines / from MTZ / from private traders + ordered Belarusians novya .... There are quite a few skating rinks and goslings in the north. Manufacturers: in the Lower N. and in the South Urals, a few "live" would strain to expand production and in any car service, with the involvement of a gray-haired mortar man, he screwed up a "pipe" I hung a conveyor belt on the sides of the layer 4 / it won’t help from the chimera, but it will hold the fragments ..... soon the dirt - and these are swamps ....

[moreman78]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

Limited use is associated with the specifics of the 82-mm mortar, left only for mountain brigades.

Yah? We have only 2 mountain brigades (34th and 55th) and both have 120mm Sani in battalions. 82mm Trays remained only with the 80th Arctic and 25th Omsbr.

[Dimax-nemo]

It is interesting, and how do the generals imagine carrying a 120-mm "non-mountain pack" mortar over the MOUNTAINS? I remember that before that war, a special 107-mm was developed and produced.

[xunno]

I wonder how you imagine a mortar on some kind of chassis on a mountain path? I wonder where you read or who whispered to you that you need to manually roll the 120 somewhere in the mountains? Afghanistan is a mountainous country. Find at least one link about such a movement. There are "Trays" for the mountains, there are your relatives - donkeys, and the calculation can drag him up the hill. It would make sense.

[Dimax-nemo]

In this case, I didn’t write ANYTHING about the chassis at all. And you immediately call names. It was not I who included 120-mm mortars in the staff of mountain rifle brigades. That's why I'm asking - how do the generals imagine this with a 120-mm mortar? We do not have donkeys and mules, we have horses, moreover, more than 80 kg. you can't load them. Therefore, any mountain pack system should be disassembled into parts no more than 80 kg., This is how they differ from ordinary ones. As far as I understand, this does not apply to the usual "regimental" 120-mm mortar.

[wladimirjankov]

[quote And finally, the third hope for an appropriate strong-willed decision of the leadership. For example, Dmitry Medvedev, First Deputy Chairman of the Military Industrial Commission under the Government of the Russian Federation.][/quote]
It is certainly a pearl of pearls. Dimon is our everything. The only thing left to do is rely on him.

[dfk-80]

There is not enough lightly armored base a la luasic, only the original version for the military. Add resistance to infantry mines to the front wheels. Buoyancy is not needed. Due to the armored hull - make it a carrier.
And then behind the mortar + folding supports or on a trailer. A car of this dimension hides unlike armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles. Due to armor, survival will increase (except for air explosions).
Well, the ideal option: a remotely guided mortar 82/120 mm. No electronics - a flexible cable or several link traction for 10-25 meters. You twist back and forth, aiming along one axis. Pulled-pressed - aiming and twisting along the second axis. The operator has duplicated scales. Cassette for 3-5 shots. Gunner on one side, loader/carrier on the other. And everyone is removed from the mortar. Plus - the trench under the mortar will be smaller and easier. The survival rate of the calculation will increase significantly.
Well, then on this platform you want to take the wounded from the BC, you want an AGS with a cord, or a radar with a drone suppression team.
Equipment of the car: engine, gearbox, brakes, headlight (one), brake light in the premium version. A sort of jeep 2.0. And any body kit for your money. Load capacity 500-800 kg.
Well, a platform like the BTR-40 immediately asks, only half as low. A sort of dodge 3/4. Kamaz and Urals, this is good - but expensive, requires a lot of armor and is very large.

[Hagakure]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

The destruction of manufacturing capacity by taxes on property and equipment is one of the main problems of our time. Cranes are sawn for scrap so that taxes are not paid, let alone workshops.

The destruction of standing production shops by taxes is the basic principle of the WTO. You should not have any equipment that does not work at full capacity. Cut it up, and when you need it once a year, buy it from someone who will make it for you all year round. Not a combine, but outsourcing is the main element of the WTO. And Russia does not want to leave the WTO, as the Russian Foreign Ministry announced just yesterday. Russia's presence in the WTO is convenient for large exporters. But it also makes Russia dependent on the world's major manufacturers of all sorts of small things. As a result, there is nothing to build something large. A market of at least one and a half billion people is immediately open to any novice Chinese. Before the Russian one, it is ten times smaller. Therefore, as long as the Russian market is not protected by its own legislation from foreign competitors, there will be no development. The whole secret of Russian weakness is the WTO.

[AdAstra]

It seems to me that everyone knew everything to their own, but they acted according to the principle "who will fight with us, we have a vigorous loaf", and here it is how it turned out.

[steelmaker]

The bad guys rule! I talk about it all the time. 100 years have passed, and Putin has everything Lenin and Stalin to blame. The communists riveted so much equipment, there is no where to put it, they are stored in the fields. Take and do, modernize! Well, you have to do it! And it’s easier for no one to do it. "It's easier to trade with the Motherland." And Putin, surrounded by others, does not, it turns out.

[Hagakure]

Our author is a total lover of self-propelled artillery, and clearly far from the realities of war. The author asks the question, how much time does it take to roll up a heavy sled? Yes, in fact, the Sani are at an artillery position less than the same 120-mm mortars on the Tiger thrust. Because they shoot faster than such a semi-automatic mortar. Because apart from Nona and Vasilko on MTLB, no mortars can fire bursts. And any other semi-automatic loses in rate of fire to a non-automatic mortar. At the same time, for some reason, he completely rejects the meaning of the existence of stationary positions. In fact, I must disappoint the author, but many positions are either stationary or conditionally stationary, i.e. such that for years can be located in war conditions only here and nowhere else. And they are certainly shot down by the enemy, and enemy drones can hang over them. And they will destroy a self-propelled gun no more difficult and no easier than towed artillery. And in these cases, it makes no sense to occupy such positions with self-propelled guns. The self-propelled gun is an offensive weapon. Came, fired, left. But even to conduct a counter-battery fight, you will be stationary artillery. You will not put forward your self-propelled gun anywhere in two or three minutes and you will not neutralize someone else's self-propelled gun with it. In your defense at a stationary position, for such an answer, the boys on a stationary position should be on duty. And their position can be a meter by meter mortar lowered into the basement with a window into the sky. And around such a position there will be destroyed houses of courtyards of the private sector. How do you drive your self-propelled gun into such a window? And such a position is very difficult to detect from a drone, very difficult to hit by any means, even if it is detected. Moreover, most of your front, dear, will always only hold the line of defense. Purely theoretically, the army of big Russia, in case of a sudden attack on microscopic Georgia, can simultaneously attack on all fronts. But practice shows that even an opponent of the level of Ukraine will not allow you to do such a trick. Someone will have to keep the defense for months in the trenches, and somewhere to create directions for a breakthrough. There will be few breakthrough areas, and many defense areas. And in the defense sectors, your bulky, clearly visible from the air, self-propelled guns that are always breaking down are not really needed. They need inexpensive, well-dug artillery. Including it is needed to attack a moving enemy, which has arisen in the firing sector right here and now. Including for the destruction of the same self-propelled guns that advance in a column or one by one to fire at previously discovered positions. No, the author is pushing the idea of ​​​​mobility and security of self-propelled guns against towed artillery. And why shouldn't he go further in his thought and suggest abandoning artillery altogether in favor of tanks. The tank is well protected, unlike any self-propelled gun, it is mobile, it can be buried.
In general, I would advise the author to somehow more fully immerse himself in the realities of the war before writing his fantastic articles. Well, fans of the idea of ​​​​total self-propelled - you can dislike. Reality will not cancel it.

[Centurion70]

As far as I remember, we planned to change the staff of motorized rifle units. On the BMP-3, they were to be equipped with 2S31 "Vena" artillery battalions, and on the BTR-82, with 2S23 "Nona-SVK" artillery battalions.
In 2012, Serdyukov refused to purchase Nona-SVK, but they were still assigned to the mountain rifle brigade and the guards regiment in 2018 ...

[Oleg Ogorod]

The main problem is that Russia has never really needed techies, design engineers and technologists.
Merchants and officials are our Russian everything.
Yes, and Ukraine is part of Russia in spirit for many centuries. with a common mentality.
Although Ukraine and Ukraine are different.
Russia has always been rich in raw materials. Which could be disposed of and traded privately on behalf of the state.
Therefore, officials and merchants have always been the main ones with us.
Will something change now?
As long as there is no direct threat to these officials and merchants, then why will something change?
Someone answered for the fact that the army was not fully (to put it mildly) ready for military operations?
NONE!
Everything is in its place and continues to hang noodles on the ears of the President and the people.
And if little depends on the people, then on ...
Stalin understood the situation perfectly, so World War II ended the way it ended.
Now the prosecutor's office will try to make the leadership of the industrial enterprises of the defense industry extreme. Not all of course, there are untouchables, their own.
But not officials of the Ministry of Industry and Trade, nor officials of the RF Ministry of Defense.
Of course, lawlessness has been going on at many defense industry enterprises for a long time, if you exaggerate a little. But the work of defense enterprises now is somewhat different from the work of enterprises in 1941÷1945. Yes, until 1970.
Is it possible to change? You can probably, you just need to understand that the laws of physics cannot be deceived. Society also develops according to the laws of physics. And consciousness (mentality) has the same force of inertia. To change the vector, you need a force no less than this stagnant selfish mentality.
Is she there?
The parades were before the war, when Lviv was attached to the USSR. Everything was fine when there were no hostilities on the territory of the USSR ...

[Pavel57]

The leaders of the military-industrial complex need to .... stab, and not only on Wednesdays.

[Kornily]

There is an example of an armored personnel carrier-transformer "Boxer"
The chassis remains, just change the body type that is redundant for this war game to the one that is needed at the moment.

[faterdom]

the third hope for an appropriate strong-willed decision of the leadership. For example, Dmitry Medvedev,

Why "third"? On him, the breadwinner-father is the only hope!
What would we do without him, miserable and miserable?
Yes, without him, and the chickens do not rush anywhere, and the crop failure of beer, oh, that is, barley, and the cuckoo in the clock does not know what to crow.
It's good that we have it, just lucky, undeservedly, of course, but lucky!
Probably, God was somehow distracted from our Power, and then he looked: either Khrushchev, then Gorbachev, then Yeltsin ... We need to correct the situation and sent us Medvedev, this is Leonardo and Albert, Macchiavelli and Churchill in the image of one person!

[Div Divich]

I look at the truck with guides for loading the mortar into the body.
And I can’t understand why some kind of loader, hydraulic or crane winch has not yet been made.

And phlox is just a tribute to fashion, the French have a Caesar, and we wanted the same, but a little bit of our own.

Instead of an expensive wunderwaffle, they would simply put a winch in any truck, and a frame for it, that's the enemy punisher ready.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Also, at first, I thought about Phlox CJSC. And when I looked closely, I changed my mind. For a maneuverable war, that's it. Of the advantages:
increased to 13 km firing range,
comfortable spacious armored cabin,
machine gun on the roof for self-defense,
guidance automation,
ease of loading, where boxes of ammunition are at hand,
large portable ammunition,
low cost chassis
great unification of ammunition, sufficient accuracy of firing ammunition with ready
rifling at a low price of a shot, including direct fire,
ground stop to protect the chassis and against rocking.
Fits into the concept of abandoning mortars on tracked chassis, and the concept of strengthening the firepower of the battalion level.
The machine is suitable not only for the Airborne Forces, but also for reinforcing motorized rifle battalions.

[d.zacharith]

It is possible to transfer part, not all naturally, of mortars to transportation by low-bed trucks .... like this MAZ
https://www.snabavto.by/articles/maz-4370-katalogi-obzor-i-tehnicheskie-harakteristiki/
Immediately, the time for folding-deployment will be reduced, plus, the work of the calculation will be facilitated

[Alexander_First]

The question of the availability of self-propelled mortars in motorized rifle battalions has long been overripe. The mortar crew must be protected from small arms fire and shrapnel. And also he is obliged to immediately leave the firing position, after firing at the enemy. Otherwise - an answer and ... But who will solve this problem? Uncles, incapable of distinguishing a mortar from a howitzer, dressed in an almost marshal's uniform? To pick up a running gear for a self-propelled mortar is not a problem. There are many options. Example: take a tank t -54B, or t 55 from storage. Remove the turret, reinforce the bottom, weld the armored wheelhouse and mount a 120 mm mortar. (but this is my fantasy - how many tank repair enterprises were scrapped? Where to do all this?)

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Yes, really? If you arrange a survey of what people want to see on a tank chassis, a mortar or a heavy flamethrower system, then 98% will prefer TOC. 120mm mortar on a tank chassis? It's not even funny.

[Sergey269]

First of all, tractors are blended with improvised means, which partially protects against fragments and, if you're lucky, from bullets.[i][/i]
blended - how is it? How can mixing in a blender protect against splinters? Dear authors, take care of your reputation and the nerves of readers (among them there are also specialists who can distinguish the method of cooking from fortification measures). I hope that you have met the building by the "surname" dugout.

[Old_wars]

The simplest solution with a mortar is to install it on a lift, and not necessarily hydraulic, you can use another principle. So all the recoil when firing will go into the ground and the requirements for the chassis are greatly simplified. An even simpler option, but less fast, is a loading and unloading tail lift. in this case, it will take time to load the unloading, although it will be less than a minute.

You can even use the Gazelle, but the BMP is better left for other tasks.

[RoTTor]

Those. ALL academies, research institutes, departments of the Geshtab, responsible for the long-term policy in the field of armaments and for the state defense order, turned out to be completely unsuitable for professional use.
Where are the personnel and organizational conclusions?

[OLEG CZIGANOV]

In order to win the war, even taking into account the mistakes made, you need a leader, like Stalin, who was not afraid to get dirty, who at the end of his life said that they would scold me in every possible way, attribute what was not, but a smart person will figure out who is right, and a fool and it's useless to prove. Look at what is happening, that we do not have weapons, there are many, and why it is not used, this is a question for the leadership. It can be seen with the naked eye that today's standing without changes is not due to the impossibility of delivering large-scale strikes to them, while using a massive offensive by the Navy, Air Force, ground forces, rocket artillery at the same time, the Ukrainian army will not survive, the Russian side has every opportunity to decide the outcome of the war quickly. But the question arises why this is not being done, while our leadership is talking about possible or desired negotiations. So then it turns out that this war is not for the sake of people, but for the sake of money and influence, which means that our government cannot yet agree with the Americans on mutually beneficial interests, the interests of oligarchs from our side and corporations from the United States, and ordinary people on both sides are cogs, consumable. Our crony government does not need a people's victory, they only need money. Therefore, it is clear that the perpetrators are not punished, since all responsible positions in the leadership are occupied by their people and relatives from the president’s entourage, but will he surrender his own, he is one of those who does not surrender his own, the same Chubais, the same oligarchs who left the country calmly , it turns out that they are enemies for the people, but not enemies for the leader. Now it is clear why Serdyukov, Shoigu, were not punished for the collapse of the army and the military-industrial complex, why Medvedev, Chubais, Siluanov were not punished for the collapse of the economy, healthcare and education, this is such a policy of power. And on our part, mobilization is most likely an attempt to frighten the enemy, so that it would be easier to negotiate with him, but they were not afraid. Now they have 70000 trained soldiers in the reserve, more units with foreign mercenaries are being prepared, which means a large-scale offensive is being prepared, tanks are just being sent to them, there will also be planes. What are we waiting for? I am more than sure that there will be another wave of mobilization and we will be thrown at the tanks like cannon fodder. Does anyone remember the last time we were informed about our losses from independent sources, it says about 150000 killed, in my region, several people every day according to information from Instagram and all the guys are from ordinary families.

[Roman Efremov]

Quote from cold wind

What could be easier than installing 120 mm in MT-LB or BMP-1?

In the near future, generals will have to realize that the old Soviet infantry fighting vehicles do not provide even a minimum level of protection. Accordingly, the question will arise: what to do with thousands of chassis of old infantry fighting vehicles, still quite usable. As an option - use them as a base for a self-propelled mortar - the alterations are really minimal. There are other options: a light tracked transporter for personnel, ammunition, the wounded, a combat vehicle for MANPADS or ATGM operators.

[Valnik]

And in the SA there was a floating tank. Why not a chassis for a mortar?

[Dzungar]

we have plenty of self-propelled mortars, ideally suited for the conditions of a special operation. True, for the most part they are calculated in units.

Eee, it's like - plenty, but there are only a few of them ... So there are plenty of them, or is it still not enough ...? And what?

[Bolo]

Comrade Stalin! Please come back, without your firm hand, we are ** here!

[Fangaro]

The third hope, in the person of Dmitry Anatolyevich, should come first.

[storm]

[quote = ColdWind] What could be easier than installing 120 mm in MT-LB or BMP-1? Any heavy equipment repair shop can handle it. Only now you can’t cut money on this and you won’t get a check-in.
[Center]
This idea of ​​simply pushing a mortar into an infantry fighting vehicle or MT-LB was abandoned during the war in Afghanistan.
After several shots from a 120mm mortar, the BMP-1 and MT-Lb knocked out the floor in the troop compartment.
When firing from an 82mm mortar, the floor of the BMP-1 and MT-Lb was knocked out after 100-150 shots.
Army craftsmen from scrap metal welded a special frame fixed inside the troop compartment and distributing the loads from a mortar shot, but then problems began with the destruction of welds throughout the hull.
The most acceptable option is to install a mortar on a folding frame behind the armored vehicle with the plate supported on the ground when firing.
The frame with the mortar is lowered from the transport position and supported by the plate on the ground using hydraulics or manually.
A mortar crew and ammunition for a mortar are transported to the troop compartment.

[ailcat]

So maybe it’s time to remember the tyr-tyrchiks like the pre-war “Komsomolets”? A simple, cheap mini-tractor (without comfort for the crew and unarmored), capable of quickly dragging an 82 or 120 mm mortar into the firing zone and almost as quickly dragging it out of it...

[Dimax-nemo]

It is very strange that the author did not mention Tundzha. After all, it was supplied to the “brothers” in the Warsha bloc.
https://topwar.ru/41520-otechestvennye-minomety-v-poslevoennyy-period.html?ysclid=ljy54wqdlo940027230