Instead of towed guns

84
Instead of towed guns


Burning in our hearts is love for our dear land,
We are going into mortal battle for the honor of our native country.
Cities burning in smoke
The harsh god of war thunders in gray forests.

Artillery march. Text by V. Gusev

Military equipment of a possible tomorrow. So, we read articles on the VO and we see that many military experts sing the praises of our cannon artillery in the NVO (although there are those who notice the shortcomings), indicating that it is she who inflicts the main losses on the enemy’s armed forces and mixes it with the ground fortifications.



On the Russian side, the following calibers are used: 100, 120, 122, 152, 203, 240 mm and ... that's all. The opposing side also has 105-mm guns sent as military assistance, and traditional 155-mm, and the same 203-mm "Peonies". The guns "there" are very different, a real panopticon. And Swedish, and French, and German, and the famous "three axes" from the States, in a word, which the Armed Forces of Ukraine do not have.


Swedish self-propelled guns "Archer" ("Archer") - one of the most modern self-propelled guns on a car chassis today

Some guns are very modern, for example, the Swedish "Archer" and the French "Caesar", others obviously hit the battlefield straight from the museum or from the warehouse, but they still somehow shoot.

In fact, if you think about it, then with the way military operations are taking place today, even mortars from the time of the Crimean War could be involved in them! Or some analogue of the American 330-mm Dictator mortar, an indispensable participant in the Civil War of 1861-1865. And what?

You bring such a mortar to a position, unload it from the back of a truck to the ground, point it at the target and ... wow, with a cannonball of a kilogram so under two hundred kilometers by five, only the black powder in the charge should be replaced with smokeless, and the charge in the core - with hexogen, well and put a modern percussion fuse. The action would be truly destructive, but she could not be afraid of return fire. Or rather, take people away, and you can leave the mortar in position, because ... how else can you destroy such cast bronze? Unless a direct hit, and this is already a great rarity. True, the gun carriage can be damaged, but it's as simple as a Siberian felt boot, and it's not difficult to replace it. It seems to be, it seems ridiculous, but why not - as they say, and cheap, another matter - where to get such mortars today.


Archer is firing

Or here's another ... We developed a 406-mm self-propelled gun "Condenser" on the chassis of the Leningrad Kotin heavy tank. It was supposed to fire an atomic projectile, but then it was possible to reduce the caliber of such ammunition, and this gun lost its relevance, just like the Oka mortar of 420 mm caliber. It is good that at least these cannons managed to pass through Red Square, instilling fear and horror in the hearts of the military attachés of other countries present there.

Her trunk was very long. And if she had it shorter? It would be quite possible to use such an ACS for shelling enemy fortifications. And after all, you can’t intercept or shoot down a projectile of such a weapon, and its striking force would be much greater than that of the same 240-mm Tulip mortar.

The 203-mm Malka gun has a long range, and its shells have destructive power. But ... is it really impossible to replace a 203 mm caliber barrel in it with a caliber ... well, say, 210 mm? There were such guns in the past in the Russian army. And the range of such a weapon, of course, will be higher than that of a 203-mm one. But today a lot depends on the range of guns, and the more it is, the better. And if you equip such a powerful weapon with a guided projectile, then it is impossible to come up with a better means for counter-battery combat.


152-mm howitzer 2A65 "Msta-B". Museum of Artillery and Signal Corps, St. Petersburg

It is quite obvious that if things continue as they are now, then the towed artillery will come to an end.

Let us recall at least our 122-mm D-30 howitzer. Until you spread all three of its beds, until you hang out the wheels, until you do all the same in the reverse order, until you attach it to the car ... And then the enemy’s return shells whistled! After all, radar stations today pinpoint artillery positions very quickly and accurately. And the same wheeled self-propelled guns can arrive in the retaliatory strike area much sooner than the towed guns can leave their positions.


D-30 in the Middle East

That is, most likely, the place of towed artillery pieces will be taken by highly mobile self-propelled guns on automobile chassis. He came, shot and left again - this is the tactic that the gunners of the Northern Military District already adhere to today, and in the near future it will undoubtedly become dominant.

Well, of course, here a lot depends on the rate of fire. With manual loading: a projectile - a cartridge case with a charge - a shot, it is impossible to develop a high rate of fire. Meanwhile, it is she who allows you to immediately cover the target with a large number of shells even from one gun and immediately inflict serious losses on the enemy. 12 rounds per minute, and no less, that is, five seconds per shot maximum - this is the rate of fire of modern guns of 152/155 mm caliber today. Well, it is clear that the physical possibilities of such a calculation simply do not allow.


Shells 155 mm caliber. In this form, they are transported over long distances, while the hole for the fuse is screwed with a stopper with a handle!


This is how they are equipped with fuses ...


And this is how they carry it to the gun!

The projectiles are too heavy, and in general manual loading cannot but be slow. This means that, again, it is necessary to abandon towed and manually loaded artillery systems in favor of guns with automated loading, like, again, the Swedish Bandkanon gun, which appeared in the early sixties of the last century. Then only multiple launch rocket systems could fire their ammunition with such speed, because the 14-round magazine of this gun was emptied in just 48 seconds (about 3,5 seconds between shots), which is still a kind of record among barreled artillery systems.

By the way, all the operations to reload the magazine container took no more than two minutes, after which the gun could repeat its fire attack, and only after that leave the firing position, fleeing return fire.


The loading of the M777 is capped, that is, the powder charges are inserted into the metal sleeve separately.


American howitzer M777A2 on firing in Paju, Republic of Korea, 2013

But Bandcanon is already yesterday. But what weapon can become a replacement for existing towed systems in the near future?

And it happened that in the early 2000s, the United States began to develop a new self-propelled gun specifically for their beloved marines, using the LAV-25 armored car chassis for this. Its main feature was the emphasis of the breech of the gun on the ground, that is, in this regard, it resembled our 240-mm Tulip mortar. There was a base plate, and on the body of the machine - a powerful paw of the manipulator, which put the tool on the ground. The project began to be developed, but for many reasons it was not possible to adopt this weapon.


SAU "Caesar"


ACS PzH2000

But ... in the light of the experience of the special operation, this project looks more than reasonable, although it needs some improvement.

Look at the picture. Before us is an armored combat vehicle, in the aft part of which a 155-mm gun with a cradle and recoil mechanisms is mounted, which rests on a massive ribbed metal plate when firing. It is lowered along with the barrel to the ground using a telescopic manipulator. When firing, the body of the BA rises so that it rests only on the front wheels, which should have added stability to this self-propelled gun when firing. But it had to be loaded manually, and, apparently, this was not a very convenient thing, since the calculation was located on both sides of the gun, but it could not be behind it - there was a car!

And what if this project is somewhat developed and improved?

Equip the gun with a magazine for 12-14 (6-7 cassettes) shells, like the same Swedish guns "Bandcanon" and "Archer".

And then this: the machine arrives at the position, the gun is put into firing position and then automatically shoots the entire ammunition load, say, in one minute. Then the gun, together with the support, is “thrown on its back”, and the self-propelled guns move away from return fire at full speed. It is only necessary to automate all the processes associated with firing, calculate the strength of the base plate and the most advantageous shape, as well as the effort needed by the manipulator, and, again, its strength - and ... that's it!


Hypothetical self-propelled 155 mm automatic gun on the LFV-25 chassis. Illustration by A. Sheps

By the way, by lengthening the barrel of this gun, you can get a very, very long-range system.

Remember at what angles the famous "Paris Cannon" fired at Paris? More than 52 degrees! Because her projectile at the same time rose very high and made its flight in highly rarefied layers of the atmosphere. Here the same situation can take place in this case, and it will turn out that we will kill two birds with one stone at once!

Of course, experts will have to say the final word, but purely hypothetically, the idea seems to be quite sound.
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  1. +9
    16 February 2023 05: 59
    By the way, by lengthening the barrel of this gun, you can get a very, very long-range system.
    If the problem of increasing the range and accuracy of shooting were so simply solved, then the trunks would already be that those "mast pines" ... request
    1. +4
      16 February 2023 06: 23
      Well, that's exactly what they decided. laughing were there trunks of 20 meters or even unique ones of 32 meters? Were. Then the missile armament came, the need to fence monsters for firing at 40-50 km disappeared. \ Accuracy when firing 460mm-807 mm is not so critical, except perhaps at sea.

      And the author's encroachments against those being towed are not entirely clear. Self-propelled art guns have been known since the Second World War (or even earlier), soon a century is looming. But towed ones are still used and produced. Yes, self-propelled guns are mobile, yes, you can wind up loading systems. But not a single country in the world has the money to completely switch to self-propelled guns; there will always be cheap towed 105-155mm howitzers in the infantry. They are cheaper to make, they eat less fuel (tractors), easier to maintain, easier to transfer. Try to push paladins into the plane or take it harder - will it fit a lot? And how many dismantled towed guns will fit into the same plane? There’s also enough for shells, and you can tow it on the spot, even on donkeys.
      Mobile units: tank, assault infantry - yes, without self-propelled anywhere, otherwise they will not be in time. But as we observe - now we have a repetition of the First World War, and therefore there is no need to move around much - in the news there are "breakthroughs" of 2-3 kilometers. And neither one type nor the other will run away from the drone.
      1. +5
        16 February 2023 06: 30
        Quote from DMFalke
        Well, this is exactly how the trunks of 20 meters were decided, or were there even unique ones of 32 meters? Were.

        And here it is not. Having said "A", that is, lengthening the barrel, it was necessary to say all the letters of the alphabet, that is, increase the thickness of the barrel and generally solve the problem of barrel bending, including thermal, the problem of barrel swaying, change the weight and composition of gunpowder, strengthen the aiming mechanisms, etc. , and so on
        Quote from DMFalke
        And the author's encroachments against those being towed are not entirely clear.
        Life forces. The fighting in Ukraine shows that it is better to have a self-propelled artillery system that quickly and independently enters a position, during the deployment automatically performs topographic fixing, receives target designation, makes calculations and, at the end of the deployment, immediately opens fire with the highest possible rate of fire, shoots 10 ... 20 shells in 1,5 ... 2 minutes and quickly leaves
        1. +13
          16 February 2023 07: 37
          Life has shown one thing, that the interaction of all branches of the armed forces ensures superiority. Failures in the functioning of one of the genera leads to a decrease in the effectiveness of others. They would have suppressed air defense, aviation would have suppressed artillery, and then artillery would not have had to work on the principle of firing twice and running. They would have assembled tightly, which contributes to effective fire control, all the artillery in the right direction and she would have taken out any opornik. Just bring shells to the gun.
      2. AAK
        +1
        17 February 2023 13: 29
        Over the past 25 years, not a single mobile wheeled artillery system for the ground forces has appeared in our country (I’m not talking about the 130-mm Bereg, the execution is Soviet, the caliber is standard marine, the number is only a few divisions, the range is also within 30 km, in in general, no ice ...). "Coalition" after being shown at the 2015 parade. have been tormenting for 8 years now and no result ... there is nothing new in artillery systems and is not being done ....
      3. 0
        9 May 2023 15: 59
        As a result of the SVO, the niche of towed guns has quite unexpectedly sharply decreased (it remained mainly for the fight of "poor" states with barmaley), and normal states (I include the Russian Federation among them) will now attend to the supply of mobile artillery of the entire range of caliber and barrel lengths, including machine guns with a maximum shooting speed of a dozen or two dozen rounds per minute two ..
  2. +9
    16 February 2023 06: 11
    The summary of this article is that if grandmother had wheels, then it would not be a grandmother, but a segway, and if a grandmother had a barrel, then it would not be a grandmother, but a tank ...
    An analysis would be much more interesting - why we don’t have this and who will be shot for it, but since you can get fresh vines for loins for this, it’s better to suffer about your grandmother.
    1. 0
      16 February 2023 06: 37
      In the military science of the Russian Federation, this type of civil war did not exist, hence the absence of this type of weapon. They had Africa with its dusty country roads and deserts and shahid machines and highly mobile systems were created against it, the USSR against China or NATO preached a fleeting nuclear missile collision, and the lessons of the Afghan disappeared in the crucible rebellions and counter-revolutions of 85-93
      1. +3
        16 February 2023 11: 15
        Quote: Guran33 Sergey
        In the military science of the Russian Federation, this type of civil war did not exist, hence the absence of this type of weapon.

        And what about the Civil War?
        The requirements for increasing the mobility of artillery are rooted as far back as the 80s of the last century - in the plans and calculations of a full-fledged war of two blocks. Even then, artillery fire control systems made it possible to detect and defeat the firing positions of enemy firing artillery systems within 5-10 minutes. What made the life of towed systems on the battlefield extremely poor and short.
        And if the military science of the Russian Federation forgot about this, then this is very strange. What kind of war was the Russian army preparing for then?
        Quote: Guran33 Sergey
        The USSR against China or NATO preached a fleeting nuclear missile clash

        Yeah .. while accumulating tens of thousands of armored vehicles and containing a multi-million army, backed by a reserve. smile
        1. +2
          16 February 2023 12: 01
          Quote: Alexey RA
          What kind of war was the Russian army preparing for then?

          To war with NATO. It is very comfortable. Because on the one hand, give money, NATO has a whole trillion, and on the other hand, what do you want from us for these pennies, NATO has a whole trillion.

          There is an opinion that if the fraternal people were non-fraternal and completely abandoned theft and mess in favor of "military training in a real way," then the course of the SVO could be pretty surprising, even with the existing budget ratio. What happens when a country is preparing for a specific war with a specific enemy, and not with NATO, we saw in 2020 in Karabakh. This is called "doctrinal advantage".
          1. +6
            16 February 2023 16: 41
            Quote: Negro
            To war with NATO.

            It was some kind of wrong NATO. wink
            Because for a war with NATO, first of all, you need a stable connection at home and the suppression of communications and control from that side. As well as reconnaissance of the battlefield at least to the depth of the division's zone of responsibility with the ability to quickly hit the detected targets.
            Quote: Negro
            There is an opinion that if the fraternal people were non-fraternal and completely abandoned theft and mess in favor of "military training in a real way," then the course of the SVO could be pretty surprising, even with the existing budget ratio.

            On the other hand, if the fraternal people had been recognized as non-fraternal even before the SVO, then the course of the SVO from the very beginning would have been different. Without mriy about fraternal people and the overwhelming number of moderate pro-Russian Ukrainians, oppressed by the evil Bandera and just waiting for brother-liberators. In general, the Second Chechen double is two.
            1. +1
              16 February 2023 22: 05
              Quote: Alexey RA
              Because for a war with NATO, first of all, you need stable communications at home and the suppression of communications and control from that side

              For a war with NATO, television is needed. The rest is pure profit.
              Quote: Alexey RA
              On the other hand, if the fraternal people had been recognized as non-fraternal even before the SVO, then the course of the SVO from the very beginning would have been different

              The Russian army always fights the same way. So the demolition of cities by artillery is uncontested - the enemy can only choose those cities that will be demolished.
              1. +2
                17 February 2023 10: 05
                Quote: Negro
                For a war with NATO, television is needed. The rest is pure profit.

                What was once different? Remember the Cold War, when, before the approval of the budgets of the military departments, the enemy armies suddenly turned into super-professionals using the latest technology. As in a joke about Rabinovich and anti-Semitic newspapers. smile
                Quote: Negro
                The Russian army always fights the same way.

                So if it is at war. And it does not conduct certain operations with an incomprehensible status and limited forces.
                1. +2
                  17 February 2023 10: 33
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  What was once different?

                  The Soviet government gave more money for the war with NATO. What this led to is known.
                  The successes of the Soviet government in military terms, thanks to a happy accident, are known for sure. In 91, the 7th Corps from Stuttgart went to Kuwait. Three years later, their former counterparts went to Grozny.
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  So if it's fighting

                  Starting from Mariupol, he fights as best he can. Just the successes in the first two weeks of the NMD are surprising (more precisely, the Ukrainian side should deal with these successes). And then everything is fine.
                  1. +1
                    20 February 2023 10: 37
                    Quote: Negro
                    The successes of the Soviet government in military terms, thanks to a happy accident, are known for sure. In 91, the 7th Corps from Stuttgart went to Kuwait. Three years later, their former counterparts went to Grozny

                    So in 1994, the Soviet government with its spending on NATO was gone. A to break - not to build. © So completely different troops went to Grozny. Judging by the known figures for the presence of personnel and equipment in the groups that were part of Grozny, active bayonets disappeared from the army in the first place.
                    And with completely different orders of the political leadership - even worse than in the initial phase of the NWO. In 1993, no resistance from the enemy was planned at all, and the level of support of the local population was adopted at the directive level of the Gantamirovites. So they pushed columns into the city under the order "do not open fire first."
                    1. +3
                      20 February 2023 11: 30
                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      So in 1994 there was no longer Soviet power with its spending on NATO

                      Uh uh no. Now we can say that the conditional general Mur*va, born in the 73rd year in the 90s, was personally taught by Chubais to steal, and MTV Europe - to give. And in 94, only and exclusively Soviet officers and soldiers trained according to Soviet standards fought. So everything that happened was shown.

                      Of course, one can say that their Schwarzkopf and Franks against the Soviet General Dudayev and Colonel Maskhadov are torn cats, but I would not pedal this version.
          2. 0
            9 May 2023 16: 04
            Sorry, you inflated the standard special operation to "doctrinal advantage?. BU!! HA! HA!
      2. +4
        16 February 2023 13: 28
        In military science, the situation was not considered when half of the world simultaneously transfers almost all available ATGMs, MANPADS, RPGs and guided munitions to one of the parties.
        1. +4
          16 February 2023 14: 57
          Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
          In military science, the situation was not considered when half of the world simultaneously transfers almost all available ATGMs, MANPADS, RPGs and guided munitions to one of the parties.

          What do you mean it wasn't considered? belay Was the General Staff not aware that Ukraine is a Western-oriented state, and that there is a NATO bloc in the West? And that the NATO bloc will support the outskirts at least technically? Are those people sitting in the General Staff?
        2. +2
          16 February 2023 16: 43
          Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
          In military science, the situation was not considered when half of the world simultaneously transfers almost all available ATGMs, MANPADS, RPGs and guided munitions to one of the parties.

          That is, this photo was not enough for our analysts - to understand who we will actually face?

          Do you recognize the president of Ukraine sitting in the chair? Yes, it's not sleepy Joe yet.
        3. Eug
          +2
          16 February 2023 18: 29
          God bless her, with science, and in the General Staff of the Russian Federation, harsh practices considered such an option, or did the Starlink of the Armed Forces of Ukraine turn out to be a surprise - they expected sweets and bouquets instead?
        4. +3
          16 February 2023 18: 39
          science did not consider the situation when half of the world simultaneously transfers almost all available ATGMs to one of the parties,

          In almost all wars in history, helpers, allies and enemies of the enemy appear who supply weapons and intervene in the conflict.
  3. -2
    16 February 2023 06: 19
    It's time to do more Msta and the Coalition, and raise the caliber. More efficient rocket launchers
  4. 0
    16 February 2023 06: 41
    We need a rate of fire - so there are automatic loaders. You can modify it to any caliber. There is also a chassis on which you can put it all. It's up to the specialists - so they seem to be in bulk. And, everything is not of that quality, well, you also need to work on this.
    1. +4
      16 February 2023 14: 27
      We need a rate of fire - so there are automatic loaders.

      For the rate of fire, in addition to automatic loaders, you also need either absolutely strong heat-resistant alloys (with which, to put it mildly, we are not very good at), or powerful cooling systems that do not violate the geometry of the barrel. And then who will need the rate of fire if the barrel is tied with a bow?
      1. +4
        16 February 2023 19: 08
        We make the current trunks using technologies that are at least half a century old. Only by simplifying it to the maximum and reducing the cost, which affects the quality.
        Arta has long been considered a relic of the past by military strategists. That's why they didn't develop it. And its production collapsed and went bankrupt.
        But on TV, everyone cheerfully reports to the Supreme Commander-in-Chief:
        All is well, beautiful marquise,
        All is well, all is well...
  5. +3
    16 February 2023 06: 46
    made its flight in highly rarefied layers of the atmosphere

    Maybe it’s enough to charge already, it’s time to rarefy the layers?)
  6. +10
    16 February 2023 06: 47
    I read the article with interest. Who is the author? What another innovator-innovator. I've read it. Ba! Historian Shpakovsky!
    The trouble is, if the cobbler starts the cakes,
    And boots stitch pastry:
    And it will not work well,
    Yes, and a hundredfold
    (I.A. Krylov)
    1. -5
      16 February 2023 06: 59
      Victor! When you have been doing something for 20 or more years, you inevitably become a specialist. How do people get education? Five years of poring over books at the university. Then practice ... And without practice, 20 years is quite acceptable. So you wrote without thinking. And again ... what is not so specific?
      1. +8
        16 February 2023 11: 48
        No offense, but this is a typical delusion and self-deception, you can become a specialist only if you do it professionally, that is, in this case, if some kind of whirlpool of events brought you into the army, and you began to command art. batteries or went through the war. This is generally a problem of modern society, that access to information creates the illusion of “expertise”, but honestly answer yourself, can you become a neurosurgeon solely by reading only the Internet?
      2. +3
        16 February 2023 13: 33
        You have already been written here that the thesis of a longer range of a 210-mm howitzer on a self-propelled chassis is, to put it mildly, controversial. If only because the weight of a longer-range howitzer, of a larger caliber, will no longer be 45 tons, but under 60 tons and even more. At least this is not exactly the case in the article.
      3. +4
        16 February 2023 20: 36
        When you have been doing something for 20 or more years, you inevitably become a specialist.

        Well, what kind of specialist you have become - an artilleryman is well illustrated by such, for example, a phrase
        You bring such a mortar to a position, unload it from the back of a truck to the ground, point it at the target and ... wow, with a cannonball of a kilogram so under two hundred kilometers by five, only the black powder in the charge should be replaced with smokeless, and the charge in the core - with hexogen, well and put a modern percussion fuse. The action would be truly devastating

        With such a formulation of the question, the action would really be crushing - nothing would be left of the mortar, nothing of the position either.
  7. +1
    16 February 2023 07: 31
    Let us recall at least our 122-mm D-30 howitzer. Until you move all three of its beds apart, until you hang out the wheels, until you do the same in the reverse order, until you attach it to the car ...


    Most likely, the designers here will offer a simple lever mechanism for unfolding and folding the frame - driven by overrunning with the smallest stroke of the tractor of this tool. From an economic point of view, this is the best option for modernizing the "classic".
  8. -1
    16 February 2023 07: 44
    All right BUT!
    It is quite obvious that if things continue as they are now, then the towed artillery will come to an end.

    What can go wrong? Isn't she already dead? Will they destroy the GPS, Starlink or UAV grouping as a class? What do the elderly stripes in MORF amuse themselves with?
  9. +3
    16 February 2023 07: 59
    Rarefied layers of the atmosphere and a discharged cannon or pistol. So, by the way)))
    1. 0
      16 February 2023 16: 57
      Quote: Vladimir-TTT
      Rarefied layers of the atmosphere and a discharged cannon or pistol. T


      This is how prodigies start. Well, why - with the MLRS rocket we deliver a one-time recoilless launcher to low orbit, into rarefied atmospheres, so to speak, and from there we fire with planning projectiles through half a ball. Simple and school physics textbook does not contradict.
  10. +2
    16 February 2023 08: 05
    If you need to quickly and cheaply, then we put a 152 (5) mm gun on a suitable truck a la Caesar. The same money will come out as a howitzer + tractor.

    If you need a more advanced complex, then an automated unmanned module for any highway. Type RCH-155. I charged the module, went into position, automatically fired back and dumped. There may be no one in the car itself, and it is not necessary to stop.



    P.S. Yes, this system on a boxer's wheeled chassis can fire on the move and with the gun rotated 90 degrees.
    1. +2
      16 February 2023 10: 34
      “The same money will come out as a howitzer + tractor” - and then it will be as always.
      Shooting without jacking will not work, you will have to put at least four jacks with a large plate. The jacks will be automatic, that is, with their own drive. It's all weight. In connection with the installation of the gun, it will be necessary to strengthen the frame. This is weight. Due to the sharply increased weight, the standard chassis suspension will sag, and it will have to be finalized. The power of the regular engine will not be enough .... And so on ad infinitum, or until the moment when the problem is taken up by professionals instead of homemade ones.
      1. +1
        16 February 2023 12: 24
        this system, on a boxer's wheeled chassis, can fire on the move and with a 90-degree gun rotation.
      2. +1
        16 February 2023 19: 27
        Well, about the weight: we have invented a carriage with an automatic support system, very simple, and instead of hydraulics, pneumatics with excessive support are used, in case of damage to the lines, the development of 2010, I saw at the exhibition, that's the solution. But the firm did not win the tender, the grenade of the wrong system
        1. +1
          16 February 2023 21: 30
          In the USA they made such a design, the main plus is the weight of only 13 tons.


          And clearly how the towed gun differs from the self-propelled guns.
          https://youtu.be/W5QF_Adtf_I
        2. +2
          16 February 2023 21: 59
          Israel made Semser 122 (ACS) for Kazakhstan. D30 on KamAZ chassis.
  11. +7
    16 February 2023 08: 25
    That's why study for many years in engineering specialties, if everything is so simple?
    Evil is sometimes not enough for such articles ...
    For some reason, the author completely forgets that the loading of modern guns is separate-sleeve or separate-cartridge not from a good life, but from the need to use variable charges. And the "Bandakannon" cherished by him used a unitary cartridge, which made him absolutely uninteresting for any country, except Sweden, which was guaranteed not to be going to war with anyone. The situation is approximately the same with the "most modern" "Archer".
    By the way, I refuse to understand what kind of "metal sleeve the powder charges are inserted separately" in the M777.
    It seems that the article was not written by Vyacheslav Olegovich, but by someone on his order, and very carelessly.
    1. -2
      16 February 2023 12: 10
      Historians and with the main specialization of the problem, in terms of the Middle Ages and antiquity. They beat Fomenko and Nosovsky with an exclusively administrative resource, because in essence they can’t oppose anything, and then it’s no longer science.
    2. Eug
      -2
      16 February 2023 18: 38
      Switch to liquid or pasty propellants with a dosage according to the firing range from the tank. They don’t fire many shots from one position anyway, and the tank can be carried with shells - like shells ...
  12. 0
    16 February 2023 08: 31
    In conflicts of low intensity, when the means of reconnaissance and communications of the enemy are somehow taboo, self-propelled guns are visible at a glance and will be destroyed no worse than usual, including on the march, and before the first shot. The only question is to create the appropriate software and communications.
    Therefore, the example of the howitzer of the Crimean War is much more attractive. Towed guns should be improved in terms of increasing resistance to close explosions, they should be controlled remotely (perhaps even from the fighter’s tablet on the front line), maintenance crews should be constantly in shelters.
    In any case, very soon artillery in conditions of equal confrontation will become disposable. Fired and forgot about the gun. The use will become possible only in conditions of clear superiority both in guns and in intelligence and communications.
  13. +1
    16 February 2023 10: 17
    A-222 "Coast" was mentioned in the article, or not? Something I didn't notice.
  14. +8
    16 February 2023 10: 23
    After the proposal to replace the 203-mm barrel on the Pion / Malka with a 210-mm one, "because this would increase the range," I didn’t even read further. Do we now have "range" depends solely on the caliber? Is it okay that the M-46 shoots further than Msta (and the D-74 - at about the same distance)? Where can I get these 21-cm shells, which have not been made for at least 60 years?
    1. +2
      16 February 2023 14: 38
      Modern technologies allow a long barrel of 152mm to shoot a modern Malka. 203mm and with modern barrel manufacturing (with increasing pressure) it will give a range of under 100km. For such systems, shells with Glonass adjustment are also needed. By appointment, it will be an analogue of TOCHKA-U or Himars.
      1. 0
        17 February 2023 10: 19
        Well, in fairness, maybe they can. But it’s not entirely clear whether these modern technologies “pay off” when they squeeze out drop by drop from 6 "caliber what was easier to get in 8", or even with a missile with the same guidance? The gun is good because it can solve problems with "stupid" blanks. And when blanks turn into rockets, the question arises - why does a rocket need a gun? This is approximately what the Americans ran into with the ship's 155-mm.
  15. +4
    16 February 2023 10: 36

    Here in this line - "signature" to the illustration there are 2 "jambs" that are worth considering!
    Firstly , there are no metal sleeves ! MM-charges (with their number from 4 ...) are placed in a special "sleeve", which is thrown out after loading before firing!
    Secondly, you should consider the definition of "cartridge loading" for the M777! Actually, MM loading (or MMZ loading ...) is used for the M777, which is somewhat different from the "classic" separate-cap loading! (Personally, I consider MM loading a kind of cap loading! But somehow, not very long ago, on the VO page there was a dispute on the topic: MM loading vs separate cap loading ... I defended the point of view that MMZ loading is a kind capped ... But they began to "spread rot" on me with might and main, proving that this is completely "not right"! Unfortunately, I did not write down the "surname" of the most active "opponent" "for memory" ... maybe he will respond today?)
    But no matter how it really is, the M777 does not use (!) The "classic" cap loading! By the way, the M777 has a piston valve!
    1. +1
      16 February 2023 14: 32
      The main technology in the gun is the Barrel (its length and resource and the energy of the charge in the chamber ..... Your reasoning is from the SV98-SVD-AK-74M series. Engineers, when they design, receive technical specifications. Weight, range and TD.
    2. 0
      17 February 2023 13: 03
      Shirokorad writes that the Soviet generals tried twice to introduce cap loading, but both times failed. The last time was in the 70s, approximately. This most "modular" loader in the Coalition seems to be "some" problem for serial production.
    3. 0
      April 17 2023 17: 44
      Modular charges are equilibrium and each has a means of initiation. Cartridge charging is the main charge and has no small additional weighted ones and no means of initiation.
  16. +1
    16 February 2023 11: 31
    As for the departure from the towed one, I generally agree, although "ideally" developing the project is as optional as possible. Today there is a self-propelled platform and fuel for it, and tomorrow some kind of epic ass and guns at point A are needed. This whole wheeled-motor zoo bursts a lot of fuel, and if it is not there, it sharply loses its potency. And this can happen, especially if the enemy focuses on it.
    As for increasing the caliber, they passed. Epic, inspires - but a dead end. Too expensive barrels, conspicuous and piece toys, small resource, low rate of fire, more% of "damage" goes into the ground. With a "successful" hit, yes, kanets. Well, 155 mm with a successful hit, this is it. So the question here is some kind of sophistication, such as the controllability and adjustability of shells for these toys - and in general this is a matter of an economic approach to war. If we can flood the front with smart weapons, then we don't need Colossal and Big Bertha outside of their traditional homeopathic niche "just in case".

    Here you just need to determine priorities - with whom are we fighting? If with earth, trees and earthworms - then yes, a bunch of art and shells of various monstrous calibers, and let's go level the "lunar landscape a la WWI."
    And if with manpower, technology and infra - welcome to the 21st century and its approaches to "smart weapons". Smart - not necessarily "precision", it is also an approach to the scattering of fragments, dist. undermining, etc. So that a smaller% of the "damage" goes to the kingdom of the Mushroom King and causes damage, as it should.
    1. +1
      16 February 2023 14: 35
      For example, MSTa-B comes with Kamaz8x8.
      And so there will be 2 pieces Kamaz 8x8 ... but they will have more BC.
      Or PT 100mm Mt12 + MTLB (6 fighters and a MTLB or SPRUT-125mm driver and 3 people.
    2. Eug
      +1
      16 February 2023 18: 43
      In short - along with the improvement of the actual guns, it is worth paying considerable attention to the shells - most likely, this will give an even greater effect.
  17. 0
    16 February 2023 14: 00
    So we seem to have found a good solution for the foreseeable future. T 62. More than 2 in storage. There should be a sea of ​​shells, they were preparing for a world war, but they quickly changed 000 mm to 115 mm. 125 mm was not in special demand, therefore, they should not have been plundered and sold off especially strongly. Dispose of them anyway, spend money, so it’s better to dispose of them on SVO ...
    With the current tactics, one group of special forces for adjustment and 2 - 3 tanks for firing, this is a very good version of self-propelled guns. Most importantly, it already exists. Put in order, modernize and - to the troops. Factories, of course, were destroyed in 30 years, no buildings, no equipment, no specialists ... But that's another question. In any case, it is more difficult and costly to produce new self-propelled guns than to put in order and modernize the finished T 62. Glory to the USSR! Shame on Gaidar and Chubais!
    1. +1
      16 February 2023 17: 25
      115 mm was not in special demand, therefore, they should not have been plundered and sold off especially strongly.

      You never know that such tanks were sold abroad? And shells had to be sold to them too. And it is more profitable to sell from stocks than to manufacture. And these tanks fought abroad. Therefore, they had a consumption of shots. which needed to be replenished.
      Think they just exchanged a gunsmith for a basketball player?
      The arms trade is a good business.
      By the way, Ukrainians have also been widely engaged in this since independence. There were scandals...
  18. +1
    16 February 2023 14: 09
    in the end, just begs the French Caesar. as rightly pointed out. you get the same guns with a tractor. and it was high time to screw 82 mm mortars to the bodies of the same trucks. or in the BTR-82 cases make a self-propelled 120mm. cheap and cheerful.
  19. +1
    16 February 2023 14: 27
    I wonder why the author did not propose to create a 152 mm installation on the basis of the pion? If you think so, the base would allow you to put a barrel comparable to the length of Pion, that is, almost 74 calibers. This would make it possible to disperse a projectile with a full charge from the sau Hyacinth to 1300+- m / s per second and get a range of 45 + - with a conventional projectile and somewhere around 60 ARS (old type). You just have to sit down and count. One thing is clear that the installation of this shot will withstand easily and without modifications to the chassis.

    In fact, the biggest pain for our artillery is not towed guns, but the lack of modern ammunition with improved aerodynamics and a bottom gas generator. I am generally silent about the corrected ones.
    1. +1
      16 February 2023 16: 43
      The pain of our art that we can’t make a trunk from a peony now. And you want to have an even longer trunk.
      The production of artillery in recent decades was considered unnecessary, they say, and so guns have been accumulated.
      Accordingly, specialized enterprises practically died. And there is no one to ask for this. The Moscow Region will nod at the MPT, and those at the Moscow Region, they say there were no orders.
      And everyone stayed where they were. Including military science with doctors and academicians of modern warfare.
      1. 0
        16 February 2023 16: 54
        The artillery part of Pion was produced at the Volgograd plant "Barricades". It is in place and functions well.
        1. 0
          16 February 2023 19: 25
          You just don't know. in their nuances. Much has changed since Soviet times.
          Therefore, peonies have not been produced for a long time.
          Repairing the old is not producing the new.
          I’ll also add for dreamers, a thin long barrel will sag / sag more than a thick one of the same length.
          If you simply make a smaller caliber in the same pion barrel, will it be effective? The barrel, by the way, will be heavier (hydraulics may not be able to cope). And the projectile is much lighter. Yes, and there is a special warhead for the peony, but I haven’t heard about 152mm.
          1. 0
            April 8 2023 16: 28
            SBC for 152 mm is still available ...
            ............
  20. +2
    16 February 2023 14: 28
    For the Russian Federation, the main thing is not to rest on "an unparalleled system." In We immediately lay a bunch of new things and because of the inhibition of one of the components we do not get the system.
    for example
    - the projectile with Glonass guidance should be applicable and available to all 152mm self-propelled guns.
    - Modern LMS with topographic location and calculations for all systems in general (and mortars too)
    - Modern trunks from the coalition can be placed openly on cargo and tracked platforms (without inventing a sapper-inhuman AZ) .. Put these trunks when upgrading to MSTA self-propelled guns.

    And we are doing the Coalition immediately with an ultimatum and both the trunk is new and the automation and the tower are deserted .... there are so many critical points where, in any case, there will be "childhood illnesses". And in the end, they don't. And shoot far than you need.
    For some reason, they put the MSTA-B barrel on the BAZ .....
    1. 0
      16 February 2023 16: 49
      With other trunks, it's just a problem. with their manufacture. Monoblock 2A64 can now be forged only by an enterprise, and it is in bankruptcy, although it is working. Another one can (could), but it is in bankruptcy and does not work.

      1. 0
        16 February 2023 17: 03
        Although in real life it will most likely be crossed with a hedgehog. 2A64 on Kamaz.
        Although KAMAZ is likely weak for this.
        I remember how the old 122 mm tank gun on ISs shoots, what a roar and what a tremor of the earth. Will the KAMAZ withstand a hundred shots, will it fall apart.
  21. +2
    16 February 2023 17: 19
    But ... is it really impossible to replace a 203 mm caliber barrel in it with a caliber ... well, say, 210 mm? There were such guns in the past in the Russian army. And the range of such a weapon, of course, will be higher than that of a 203-mm one.

    Oh, these fantasists ... as in the song: a dreamer, I called him ...
    Let's start with the fact that any gun without ammunition is just scrap metal.
    And to establish the production of a new caliber of ammunition ...
    One thing is the old Soviet large stocks in warehouses, although it is not known how many of them are left, it is another thing to start producing new shots. And shells and charges, if it's a shell. And stock them up.
    There were a lot of Soviet stocks in Ukraine, but some were sold, some were Ukrainianized and sold. Well, a lot accidentally suddenly caught fire and exploded in several warehouses, including the Czechs.
    Well, the second aspect is the barrel itself, which needs to be made, no one knows where, then tested, put into production ...
    This is a long song.
  22. 0
    16 February 2023 19: 40
    Towed guns will definitely not disappear for a very long time, and mortars in particular ... Damn, the old rapiers have not yet been abandoned, although they had to be sold back in 91, because their performance characteristics are already insufficient, and they are creating a re-grading of ammunition ... If so to add something is to return 160 mm mortars to service ...
    1. +4
      17 February 2023 02: 45
      I would argue about the old Rapiers. I've seen what Rapier can do from a mile and a half. on direct line. Unsuccessfully substituted then in thingbags were taken out. A unitary shot, a variety of ammunition (ATGM Kastet probably has not yet been removed from service), both direct fire and mounted fire. It's too early to write it off.
      And yes, a mile and a half. you will hear the sound of a burst before the sound of a gunshot. Or you won't hear...
      1. 0
        19 February 2023 18: 53
        A 125-mm self-propelled anti-tank gun 2A45M Sprut-B was prepared to replace the Rapier. But where is she?
  23. +2
    16 February 2023 20: 38
    But ... is it really impossible to replace a 203 mm caliber barrel in it with a caliber ... well, say, 210 mm? There were such guns in the past in the Russian army. And the range of such a weapon, of course, will be higher than that of a 203-mm one.

    Eyes bleeding...
  24. 0
    16 February 2023 22: 11
    Quote: Dimax-Nemo
    After the proposal to replace the 203-mm barrel on the Pion / Malka with a 210-mm one, "because this would increase the range," I didn’t even read further. Do we now have "range" depends solely on the caliber? Is it okay that the M-46 shoots further than Msta (and the D-74 - at about the same distance)? Where can I get these 21-cm shells, which have not been made for at least 60 years?

    make a smooth barrel 210-240 mm, and under it a long feathered guided projectile with satellite guidance and a departure speed of 1300+ m / s. This way you can bypass the limitation in the length of the projectile for a rifled gun and the speed of its acceleration.
  25. -3
    16 February 2023 23: 15
    The best artillery is a 1 Mt rocket. I think so
  26. The comment was deleted.
  27. -4
    17 February 2023 13: 57
    Towed guns in modern warfare are medieval.
    All of them should be decommissioned and sold to third world countries, replaced by self-propelled guns.
  28. +2
    17 February 2023 15: 30
    Quote: ycuce234-san
    Let us recall at least our 122-mm D-30 howitzer. Until you move all three of its beds apart, until you hang out the wheels, until you do the same in the reverse order, until you attach it to the car ...


    Most likely, the designers here will offer a simple lever mechanism for unfolding and folding the frame - driven by overrunning with the smallest stroke of the tractor of this tool. From an economic point of view, this is the best option for modernizing the "classic".

    The time for folding and deploying the D-30 howitzer is, according to the standards, "insane" 90-150 seconds. Three towed axes have about the same garbage. What is the advantage of self-propelled artillery over towed artillery? The answer may arrive during this time only if other artillery is on duty somewhere at this time. No self-propelled gun hidden in an unknown hangar will reach positions in such a time. And for duty, she absolutely does not need to be self-propelled. On the contrary, she needs to stand at the chosen position for hours, while being disguised and dug in. Because the answer to it, if it arrives, it will have a spread. KVO for Msta at a distance of 30 km is only 274 meters. This is if all the parameters matched. And so they will easily miss half a kilometer. Go outside and walk 274 meters to see how much they miss you. Since the answer will be given without visual control, but according to the standards, it is easy to survive such an answer in scattered trenches for the calculation of a dug-in cannon. By the way, for high-precision corrected projectiles, the KVO is a full-fledged 50 meters, instead of advertising three to five. This is indeed much more accurate, because the area of ​​​​such a QUO is ten times smaller than a low-precision one, which means that the shells need to be proportionally smaller and the attacking position must be proportionally smaller for a guaranteed defeat. But this is not advertising 3-5 meters. And not one shot. Only an intelligent artilleryman from a sighted position can have one shot. Then some unique ones show miracles. But you don't have to make the rule out of the exception.
  29. 0
    18 February 2023 13: 00
    Quote: Dimax-Nemo
    Well, in fairness, maybe they can. But it’s not entirely clear whether these modern technologies “pay off” when they squeeze out drop by drop from 6 "caliber what was easier to get in 8", or even with a missile with the same guidance? The gun is good because it can solve problems with "stupid" blanks. And when blanks turn into rockets, the question arises - why does a rocket need a gun? This is approximately what the Americans ran into with the ship's 155-mm.

    NATO has had a 6 "shot for a long time, but not an 8", so apparently they are developing what they have. Why are we not developing our 6" and 8" shells, you need to ask Shaigi and Chemezov. Where did the compass and its developments go?
    A projectile from a cannon arrives at speeds that are only available to the OTRK and so far no one can shoot it down. The difference in price between an otrk and the most sophisticated projectile will be just the size of the gun itself
  30. 0
    24 March 2023 05: 26
    most likely, the place of towed artillery pieces will be taken by highly mobile self-propelled guns on automobile chassis. He came, shot and left again - this is the tactic that the gunners of the Northern Military District already adhere to today, and in the near future it will undoubtedly become dominant.


    Everything has long been invented and tested, the same D-30s had to be massively put on a car chassis and sent in hundreds to the troops from the very beginning of the NWO.
    1. 0
      26 March 2023 14: 45
      If the front line does not change for half a year, if the same sector of the front is shelled for half a year, then it would be reasonable to make long-term shelters for your guns. it’s easier and cheaper for anyone to use self-propelled guns, while it will never break or get stuck in the mud.
  31. -1
    April 14 2023 21: 54
    It is quite obvious that if things continue as they are now, then the towed artillery will come to an end.


    Only it should have happened twenty years ago.
    There are a significant number of automobile chassis in the troops, therefore it is not difficult to make self-propelled guns from a towed gun and an automobile tractor, installed hydraulic stops, installed a gun in a body or on a frame.
    Issue to the commander of the calculation. a good radio station, and a tablet for fire control.
  32. 0
    April 17 2023 17: 37
    The author, the M777 has modular loading, not cap loading. A cap is just a rag bag and the means of initiation to which is a separate exhaust tube, which must be screwed into the breech. And the modules are the equilibrium charges of gunpowder in plastic combustible sleeves with an initiation means from which they gain a propellant charge. In particular, the Coalition has a modular charge. And we don't make them.
  33. 0
    16 June 2023 23: 30
    Range is meaningless without reconnaissance and guidance. The UAV will not fly inside the territory, which means guidance only by GPS, and satellite reconnaissance, which does not give a target in real time, which means that super-long-range guns are not needed. Yes, you can work from a great depth along the front edge, increasing the survivability of artillery, but again this is not a panacea.
  34. 0
    6 November 2023 02: 02
    Serbian self-propelled gun MGS-25 Aleksandr. Barrel length 52 caliber. The volume of the charging chamber is 23/25 liters. Fully automated. You can fire while inside or using remote control. 12 projectiles and propellant charges inside the weapon module.
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