Concepts for the use of artillery during NWO

133
Concepts for the use of artillery during NWO


Avdeevsky fortified


From the very beginning, the NMD of the RF Armed Forces faced the enemy, who had an excellent artillery fire control system. For this, all the conditions were created: long-term stationary positions, the popularity of targets and landmarks on the territory of the enemy - the DPR and LPR, professionally trained combat crews, reconnaissance and surveillance equipment provided by the West. Even at the initial stage, when our armored strike forces were moving forward, liberating the territory, the enemy as a whole could inflict damage, first on reconnoitered targets due to their many years of observation and shooting, then due to the fact that during the retreat, positions were left that he was thoroughly aware of. all the details necessary for effective damage are known: shelters, roads, positions.



As a result, a whole system of defense was formed in various directions, based on the adjustment of artillery and mortar fire.


A vivid example of this is the Avdiivka fortified. A solid gray area with dilapidated urban development. It is controlled by minefields, which are covered by the fire of well-camouflaged firing points by snipers and machine gunners. This entire zone is clearly visible from stationary observation posts and technical reconnaissance equipment, night lights, thermal imagers, UAVs in patrol mode and high-resolution video cameras located on elevated areas of the terrain - factory pipes, communication towers, high-rise buildings, etc. When trying to advance in such a zone, arrivals immediately go through the reconnaissance group.

Sometimes the fire scheme is built in such a way that the group is first allowed to enter the “fire bag” that is being shot through, then a mortar cut-off is placed behind it and the group begins to destroy by fire not only artillery and mortars, but also small arms weapons from dagger distances. Hence the heavy losses during attempts at each "new" assault, especially when changing advancing units.

And besides, it seems that advancement is still possible, the enemy has dead zones and it’s realistic to get close to him. But it could all turn out to be a well-planned fire trap.

An attempt to overcome such a zone with an attack with a landing on armor is ineffective, since it will be detected and covered by the enemy, or even at the stage of accumulation at the initial line of attack, as recently near Ugledar, or when the landing comes across anti-tank mines. And at the same time it will be substituted for foreign-made ATGMs.

There is a way to overcome such a positional difficulty, and it is in the use of appropriate tactics, which can be discussed separately.

But now I would like to talk about another aspect. In such a defense system, artillery and mortars play a key role. The main percentage of injuries and losses in the infantry is mine-fragmentation.

According to the "Soviet charter"


In this case, we are dealing almost with the classical concept of using artillery according to the “Soviet charter”. There is, however, a key difference. Neither the defenders nor the attackers can afford the open location of artillery crews and the concentration of a large number of guns per unit front. Just because of the sharply increased capabilities of both satellite and airborne - using UAVs, and radar reconnaissance of counter-battery combat stations. A “battery” of three guns has to be brought to a camouflaged position in advance, so that after several support shots it immediately folds and descends to another position.


Sometimes the tactic of a nomadic battery is used. And if the goal is not just to “populate” towards the front line or through residential areas (as the enemy often does), then the tactics of a nomadic battery is a whole system. I will briefly describe how to use it.

First, the target is determined on which it is supposed to strike, then several positions are selected from which this target can be reached with the range of weapons that you have. One thing is the long arm of the Rapier, another thing is the battalion mortar. For such positions, in addition to reach, there must be several conditions. There should be an opportunity to quickly leave and leave quickly. There should not be significant friendly targets nearby - so as not to cause return fire on them.

Then a reconnaissance group is advanced to such a point, which provides cover for the battery when it leaves. Often, the necessary parameters with coordinates are pre-calculated. In artillery, you often need to tie your position with the help of a compass. On the ground, you can carry out all the calculations in advance and outline positions for calculations. Then advance, strike and immediately change position.

Sometimes the departure of such a battery is done on purpose in order to reveal the location of the enemy’s artillery positions, and at the moment of their attempt to cover the nomadic or other allied, friendly means of destruction, they strike already at them - drones "Lancet" or helicopters from our side, high-precision long-range ammunition from the enemy's side.

One way or another, but the concentration of artillery means is impossible for the same reason that the concentration of any means in general is impossible. Only a covert location, scattered in order to reduce losses in the event of an enemy strike.

Until about July 2022, both sides used a similar approach when conducting military operations with artillery in particular.

Further deliveries of Western howitzers and MLRS systems began. "Paladins", "Caesars", "Three Sevens" and the notorious "Haymars" noticeably changed the tactics of the Ukrainian artillery. Indeed, they were allowed to strike behind front line. Just for those objects that were previously considered to be outside the strike zone of enemy artillery. These are warehouses of ammunition and fuels and lubricants, communication centers, headquarters, places of deployment and rotation of personnel, hospitals, repair sites for equipment and places for its parking. That is, for those targets that, due to their characteristics, are easily hit and the defeat of which causes a great material, and often moral, effect - like a blow to the barracks in Makeevka. If before that the threatened zone was located two to three kilometers from the LBS, then with the use of such means it moved immediately beyond 20-30 kilometers.

Counterinsurgency artillery


Let's make a small digression, how the idea of ​​high-precision long-range artillery weapons was born in the West. In addition to the quite obvious vector for improving the performance characteristics in terms of accuracy and range of hitting a target, the nature of the hostilities conducted by NATO countries over the past 50 years apparently played a big role. Basically it is a war of high-tech armies against various national rebel and radical fundamentalist groups.

classical story - there is a well-defended military base in Ethiopia or Afghanistan. Groups of rangers, green berets and other fur seals identify enemy activity. The enemy is hit aviation and artillery, and airmobile and mechanized forces are advanced from the base to block and destroy the survivors.

In such greenhouse conditions for artillery, the main quality is the range, accuracy and speed of reloading and guidance. The target, as a rule, is lightly armored or not armored at all, but highly maneuverable. Hence the request for high-precision, long-range or guided munitions or MLRS with a long effective range is born. An insignificant factor in such a concept is the complexity of maintaining and repairing gun mounts - since they are used within their rear depots and repair shops with trained personnel. The cost of the shot and the wear of the barrel are not important, since the shooting is intense, but rare.

And in general, the concept of such counter-insurgent artillery suggests a balance: we'd rather spend expensive ammunition now than later look for this gang in the jungle or mountains.


The supply of such weapons to the Ukrainian army led to a change in the tactics of its use. Indeed, such weapons can hit significant objects in the rear. But to destroy a trench with a pair of infantrymen, a 155-mm projectile of a precision-guided gun is no better than a projectile of the same caliber of an ordinary howitzer.

Moreover, the advanced stronghold is often so riddled with false and reserve positions, equipped with a system of dugouts and "fox holes" that, even with information about the infantry located there, it is impossible to achieve any "accurate" defeat of the trench with one or two shells. To do this, you need to thresh on it all day, plowing into the "lunar landscape", achieving at least the destruction of communications and equipped firing points, and ensure the application of acubarotrauma - shell shock.

And it would be fine if it were just an equivalent replacement of old Soviet howitzers and cannons with high-precision foreign-made guns. Moreover, the supply of Western weapons coincided with the depletion of stocks of Soviet heritage in the warehouses of the Western Military District. It is no coincidence that Ukraine sometimes led the way in the supply of Soviet-era weapons to Africa. For thirty years of independence, there were very few stale stocks of artillery and shells left in the warehouses of the "square". At the same time, Ukraine, an arms exporting country, considered it unnecessary to build its shell and cartridge factories, living through the Soviet legacy.

Changing the way artillery is used by the enemy


Thus, the natural decline of Soviet-style artillery during the fighting coincided with the supply of Western weapons in this area. In other words, at some point in the LBS, a change in the way the enemy used artillery began to be noticeably felt. If at first they tried to use it “in the old way”, but taking into account the increased capabilities of the performance characteristics, then soon, apparently, a number of factors that prevented this came into force.

Let's analyze them separately.

At first, the huge daily consumption of ammunition led to their rapid depletion. The Western military-industrial complex is in no hurry or cannot increase production in a short time, or considers it too costly for itself, because it is necessary to supply them to the bottomless black hole of daily consumption for free under arguments about the overall contribution to the fight against Russia. It is no coincidence that the main cooperators and sponsors of Ukraine, the United States, turn either to South Korea or to Brazil with a request for the supply of ammunition, after they have raked out all the stocks from the countries of the former Warsaw Pact.

Secondly, there are logistical difficulties in delivery, despite unexploded bridges and active railways, shells have to travel a long way from warehouses in the States or France to a gun hidden in the Clock Yard, for example.

Thirdly, the guns themselves are used in conditions of increased combat load, without proper maintenance, which leads to increased wear and tear of equipment, and the parts using them do not have repair competencies in the field. Therefore, the "crabs" are taken to Poland for repairs, and the "Caesars" and "Paladins" even further.

Fourthly, the guns themselves gradually fail as a result of counter-battery combat, the use of Lancets and aviation against them, and the cost of each is incomparable with the cost of a Soviet howitzer.

Fifthly, the complexity of the maintenance and preparation of the calculation requires either to give them into the hands of untrained personnel, or to use the calculations of vacationers-mercenaries of foreign states.

Roughly speaking, at the moment two different concepts of the use of artillery have already collided at the front. One is massive, cheap, easily mastered, maintainable artillery, with cheap, but inaccurate shots in mass quantities. The other is expensive high-precision longer-range guns with expensive high-precision, but limited number of shots.

As you can see, in a comparative analysis of the listed characteristics, on the one hand, the main factor is cheapness and quantity, on the other hand, accuracy and range. If the factor of greater range on the part of the enemy of the RF Armed Forces has recently been leveled by the use of guided drones-kamikaze of the "Lancet" type and aviation, then the need to use long-term shelling by the enemy has nothing to replace.

Hack and predictor Aviator


I emphasize once again: infantry field fortifications, even in a forest plantation, and even more so in urban areas, can only be destroyed by long-term shelling with the expenditure of a large amount of ammunition. High accuracy and range do not play a special role here. You simply cannot do without a lunar landscape and plowing. Projectiles have a dispersion radius, and the target has a damage factor. To plow a trench for one infantryman, with a fox hole, you need two shells, a dugout in two rolls - three, and so on.

In addition, I note that we are talking about what is better: to be poor and healthy or rich and sick. Answer: healthy and rich - not accepted under the terms of the introductory. Mass and cheap artillery cannot be high-precision, and high-precision cannot be mass, due to the price of both the shot and the gun.

The end point in the confrontation of concepts will be put by the course of the SVO, however, I will assume that the result will be the same as in the tank confrontation of the Great Patriotic War, when massive, remotely suitable, simple thirty-fours turned out to be the right choice, compared with the "royal tigers" which are the end point in the chain of long upgrades and limited production series.


Offers


In conclusion, I would like to summarize those proposals that could balance our artillery and the RF Armed Forces in general into a more combat-ready form.

The presence of a larger supply of explosives in the Lancet-type UAV, possibly with a tandem, cumulative part.

Installation on the UAV of the "Geran" type of targeting and course correction by the operator.

Development of a self-propelled, heavily armored or robotic platform to suppress weapon emplacements in close contact with an assault infantry unit. Something in between classic a tank (which is insufficiently protected for this purpose) and the BMPT "Terminator" (which does not have heavy weapons, except for ATGMs). The need for such a platform at one time led to the creation, on the one hand, of the T-35 “breakthrough tanks”, and on the other, the Sturmgeshütz STUG-III class of combat vehicles.

Creation of a guidance system for the Krasnopol projectiles along the GLONAS coordinates, in addition to the laser illumination beam.

Designing a control system for existing or new air bombs for planning from high altitude with target guidance from beyond the capabilities of defeating MANPADS.

Application of charges to ATGMs with high-explosive fragmentation and thermobaric parts.

Use of infantry mortars up to 60 mm caliber.
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  1. +10
    15 February 2023 05: 03
    Good analysis of artillery! good And in the General Staff such analyzes are carried out and conclusions are drawn?
    1. +8
      15 February 2023 05: 54
      An interesting question. I would also like to know.
      1. +4
        15 February 2023 12: 10
        Use of infantry mortars up to 60 mm caliber.
        in the silent version, the proto song would be.
    2. +5
      15 February 2023 09: 06
      Why do they need it in Moscow? They don't shoot there.
      1. +2
        15 February 2023 12: 18
        Quote: Million
        Why do they need it in Moscow? They don't shoot there.

        Problems old generals new. There was Tukhachevsky who demanded, under a shot of 3 inches, to make guns, even though the gun was outdated, but shells from the tsarist times of Uim.
        And here are our defective managers, too, why new ones when there are a bunch of old ones and shots for them. Nothing has changed in 90 years.
        In contrast to them, Kutaisov, the chief of artillery under Alexander 1, carried out a reform despite the presence of a huge amount of old shells and guns, leaving only 6 calibers in the troops instead of the 21 calibers available. And three types of guns Cannon howitzer and mortar on a universal carriage. Napoleon met with this arsenal
        1. +11
          15 February 2023 12: 51
          What prevents you from shooting an expensive projectile from an inexpensive gun? After all, it is the projectile that ensures the accuracy of Western systems ...
        2. +2
          16 February 2023 12: 34
          1. It was foolish to ignore the huge reserves of royal shells. In 1812, the production of ammunition was not yet such a hemorrhoid.
          2. The reform of artillery was carried out by Arakcheev. Mortars at that time could not fire from the same carriages, no cannon carriage could withstand this. There were no howitzers, there were "unicorns", this is a little different. At the same time, 12-pounder guns were of "three proportions". Those. 3 guns of the same caliber but different weights.
    3. +9
      15 February 2023 15: 17
      Where did you see an analysis in this article, especially a detailed one? belay
    4. The comment was deleted.
    5. +8
      15 February 2023 18: 49
      Quote from Uncle Lee
      Detailed analysis of artillery

      To be honest, I didn't see it.
      and already
      Quote: author
      Offers

      akin to this
      Experts come up with seven import substitution strategies for Russia

      https://www.vedomosti.ru/business/articles/2023/02/15/963038-eksperti-pridumali-sem-strategii-importozamescheniya
      The presence of a larger supply of explosives in the Lancet-type UAV, possibly with a tandem, cumulative part.

      those. new razratka UAV Lancet No. 7,8,9?
      You can’t shove the uncanny.
      Installation on the UAV of the "Geran" type of targeting and course correction by the operator.

      This is no longer a cheap $10K geranium, but a $200K device. it is necessary to change the moped engine, install a current generator (BIP), pr-transmitting antennas
      Development of a self-propelled, heavily armored
      Jews have shown this for a long time, and the whole world too. Generals in the Russian Ministry of Defense, as they used infantry fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers, they continue (BTR-82 will not let you lie)
      Creation of a guidance system for the Krasnopol projectiles along the GLONAS coordinates, except for the laser illumination beam

      - how? from what and where?
      - GLONASS is not enough for the ZM-14, and for aircraft, too, soon it will die without spare parts at all.
      Designing a control system for existing or new

      ek efficient new thought. realized
      Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) for 15 years. They laughed at him
      Yes, and there is no money, everything was spent on "Hephaestus"
      Here is the Azerbaijani UAB (in my opinion, from 2014) and the whale for the planning UAB. All this seems to be from 2014


      and this horror (genius engineering approach) can only frighten the pilot

      Application of charges to ATGMs with high-explosive fragmentation and thermobaric parts.

      who's stopping you from using it?
      9M114F with a high-explosive (thermobaric) warhead.
      9M120 "Attack" in versions with a cumulative, high-explosive fragmentation and thermobaric warhead.
      It seems to me that every ATGM from birth has the possibility of variability with OF or TB warheads.
      1. +2
        15 February 2023 22: 09
        Quote from Digger
        those. new razratka UAV Lancet No. 7,8,9?
        You can’t shove the uncanny.

        You can do it easier - screw the guidance system from the "Lancet" to the "Geran-1" with 18 kg. Warhead, and get what we want. And there will be no such embarrassment with the "affected" "Lancets" of enemy self-propelled guns, etc. This will not be an expensive option and an unsolvable task. Moreover, if you give target designation to the "Lancet" and direct it through a reconnaissance UAV / repeater. For this, everything has been in stock for a long time, it remains only to assemble, test and train operators. And immediately in the near and operational rear of the enemy, a completely different life will come.
        Quote from Digger
        Development of a self-propelled, heavily armored
        Jews have shown this for a long time, and the whole world too. Generals in the Russian Ministry of Defense, as they used infantry fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers, they continue (BTR-82 will not let you lie)

        In fact, the "Terminator" went into series from the very beginning of the NWO and is already entering the troops. And if you start mass production of BMPT-72 combat modules (they were mass-produced when fulfilling an order for Algeria) and install them on the hulls of the first versions of the T-72 and even ... on the T-55 hulls, strengthening the armor, dynamic protection and side screens, then such a technique on LBS will soon become commonplace. At the same time, BMPT-72 and BMPT-55 can be retrained as ShMPP - assault infantry support vehicle. The solutions are simple and they themselves are asking for implementation, the prototypes have long been worked out, a large batch of BMPT-72 ("Terminator-2") went to Algeria, and in the BMPT-55 our side has long offered to re-equip the old T-55s to all operators of this Soviet armored vehicles . Now I think it's time for ourselves and MASSIVELY.
        1. +1
          15 February 2023 23: 42
          Quote: bayard
          You can do it easier - screw the guidance system from the "Lancet" to the "Geran-1"

          I don’t understand them much, but I’ll assume that the lancet “flies” at distances an order of magnitude less than geraniums
          + BIP on geranium will need another
          + alignment
          Quote: bayard
          Basically the Terminator.

          actually, I confused my eyes and thought that the author was talking about Nagmash Merkava. He took care of the infantry against the artillery. Spat. I confess
          And the Terminator, somehow related to
          Quote: Author
          Concepts applications artillery during the NWO

          has little, from the word at all.
          However, like planning bombs and MANPADS
          Quote: author
          Designing a control system available or notnew air bombs for planning from a great height with aiming at a target from beyond the capabilities of defeat MANPADS.
          1. 0
            16 February 2023 19: 38
            Quote from Digger
            Quote: bayard
            You can do it easier - screw the guidance system from the "Lancet" to the "Geran-1"

            I don’t understand them much, but I’ll assume that the lancet “flies” at distances an order of magnitude less than geraniums
            + BIP on geranium will need another
            + alignment

            We are talking about the modification of "Geranium-1", which is smaller in size, has a smaller warhead and range. It is not at all necessary to fly this one to the maximum range, and the control unit and camera from the "Lancet" will weigh quite a bit and will not particularly affect the centering. And if at the same time we use an UAV repeater, then we will have an excellent tool to nightmare the enemy’s near and operational rear lines. Warhead 18 kg. sufficient to destroy any type of armored vehicles, you can install a cumulative warhead with a precharge. And such a "Geran-1M" will cost a little, and the quantity may be sufficient.
            Quote from Digger
            Concepts for the use of artillery during NWO

            has little, from the word at all.
            However, like planning bombs and MANPADS

            Well, for counter-battery combat, the new guided munitions for Tornado-G, Tornado-U and Tornado-S will be very helpful. They have already entered service and are actively used on the Donetsk front. Apparently, this caused the greater effectiveness of the counter-battery fight in recent weeks.
        2. 0
          16 February 2023 23: 39
          You can do it easier - screw the guidance system from the "Lancet" to the "Geran-1"

          Forgive me, but if we are still talking about cumulative b.ch. for the "Lancet", then it seems to be already there. I don't quite understand the subject matter.
      2. 0
        16 February 2023 12: 29
        Uh .... we at one time obliged this GLONASS to blurt out every stupid cart with 4 wheels. Do we do nothing at all? Okay, artillery shell, they could definitely have plenty for Tornadoes and Hurricanes. Didn't want to.
  2. +15
    15 February 2023 05: 53
    Difficulties in using artillery according to the Soviet charter, but where the hell is the self-propelled guns of the Coalition ??? put them at a distance of 50-60 km from the line of contact and figachts on the opornika, without changing position after the first shots ... You can find a battery at such a distance, you can only through satellite ... it will obviously take more than one hour, or even a day ... But in 8 years, 14 Coalitions have been built in total, they don’t make new ones, and the old ones are probably preparing for the parade on May 9
    1. +5
      15 February 2023 06: 44
      A vivid example of this is the Avdiivka fortified. A solid gray area with dilapidated urban development. It is controlled by minefields, which are covered by the fire of well-camouflaged firing points by snipers and machine gunners.

      “With two hundred guns per kilometer of the front, they don’t ask about the enemy and don’t report, but only report to what line our advancing units have reached”
      K. Simonov.
      1. +4
        15 February 2023 10: 35
        This is Marshal K.S. Moskalenko said at least all references to him wink
      2. +1
        15 February 2023 12: 12
        Quote: NDR-791
        “With two hundred guns per kilometer of the front, they don’t ask about the enemy and don’t report, but only report to what line our advancing units have reached”
        K. Simonov.

        Well, Ugledar is an example of the deployment of 30 units of armored vehicles and was caught just in the middle of the deployment.
    2. +15
      15 February 2023 06: 49
      Coalition ??? put them at a distance of 50-60 km from the line of contact and figacht on the oporniks without changing position

      Defenders are not a necessary target, they are like a checkpoint. The basis of the defense of the Armed Forces of Ukraine is artillery defense, based on good communications and target designation. Therefore, detours, coverage and other tactics are not applicable in this situation, the defeat of the column near Ugledar showed this. Until we extinguish communications or air defense, this will continue and no Coalitions will help, we simply do not have time in the counter-battery fight. Not oporniks are the basis of the defense of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, but a well-built artillery defense. And without aviation it cannot be overcome. So we will liberate one village for half a year, unless by some miracle we are able to suppress communications and (or) air defense.
      1. +2
        15 February 2023 07: 58
        I will not say for sure, but it seems to me that the basis of the defense of the Armed Forces of Ukraine is precisely the infantry. Supporters of pillboxes and so on with modern means of reconnaissance and destruction are the mass grave of a garrison who died without harming the enemy. Artillery is food for aviation. Air defense is also carried out by aviation, it is enough to concentrate the necessary outfit of forces. The VKS is quite capable of providing absolute air superiority in a separate sector of the front. Why all this is not done - I do not know.
        1. +4
          15 February 2023 12: 38
          Aviation is just used, only a small one in the form of Lancet attack drones.
          1. 0
            16 February 2023 19: 43
            Aviation is just used, only a small one in the form of Lancet attack drones.


            I can't see through the binoculars that the lancets really used!!!

            If at least 50 Lancets per day (minimum), then Dill's losses would be much (!!) more than Konashenkov tells us!

            And again they hang on our ears that they collect 100 Calibers a day, and only Lankets and other Cub-UAVs - "like mosquitoes in the vast Ussuri taiga ..."
        2. +2
          15 February 2023 18: 17
          Ambush air defense tactics, gives chances to shoot down planes! In order for this chance for the air defense system to be the last thing he managed to do, you need to allocate a large detachment of forces and be prepared for the loss of aircraft! Aerospace Forces are not ready to lose aircraft (the loss limit has been exhausted) and, apparently, not everything is fine, with an instant reaction to the launch of a missile defense system, i.e. The air defense system can shoot back and have time to hide!
          Before attacking Ugledar, it would be right to conduct an air offensive and establish air control over the theater of operations and then go on the attack, and extinguish everyone who tries to resist from the air! But the VKS does not seem to have the strength to do this! feel
          1. 0
            13 May 2023 15: 19
            in terms of sound, with intensive firing of all fire weapons, there will be such a background on the LB that you will not find anything.
    3. +10
      15 February 2023 09: 25
      1. Dispersion at a distance of 50-60 km will be huge, as will the consumption of ammunition. 2. You can find a battery at such a distance, including without any satellites, for example, by sound metering.
    4. +3
      15 February 2023 12: 13
      Quote: Vasily Lugovskoy
      Difficulties in using artillery according to the Soviet charter, but where the hell is the self-propelled guns of the Coalition ??? put them at a distance of 50-60 km from the line of contact and figachts on the opornika, without changing position after the first shots ... You can find a battery at such a distance, you can only through satellite ... it will obviously take more than one hour, or even a day ... But in 8 years, 14 Coalitions have been built in total, they don’t make new ones, and the old ones are probably preparing for the parade on May 9

      To begin with, nona was ready for 15 years already, but it is not yet there and we live on the backlog of the USSR.
      1. +1
        16 February 2023 04: 41
        in 86, there were already NONs in the DRA, there was a battery in the battalion. Moreover, they even gave me one NON to the platoon, he pointed it himself, something like this, lying on the tower with his head into the hatch, he yelled at the gunner, to the left, to the right, a little further))))))). By the way, they hit it, about 2 kilometers along the top of the ridge, and then, in pursuit, three more mines further than 50, further 100. Then they found bloody rags there, a broken PC and a shank from 120 mm mines)))))
        1. 0
          16 February 2023 19: 52
          And I climbed into it in 85 at the training ground in Chapaevsk))). The impression is good!
    5. 0
      16 February 2023 11: 54
      put them at a distance of 50-60 km from the line of contact and figacht on the oporniks, without changing position after the first shots ..


      And what will be the dispersion of shells at a distance of 50-60 km? Will it not turn out that everything will go into "milk"?
  3. +6
    15 February 2023 05: 53
    At the expense of GLONAS, while the fight with Ukraine, you can use it. There will be a fight with NATO off season. Satellites will be destroyed. And so the article is not bad, quite instructive.
    1. +2
      15 February 2023 07: 58
      Quote: Vladimir Mikhalev
      At the expense of GLONAS, while the fight with Ukraine, you can use it. There will be a fight with NATO off season. Satellites will be destroyed. And so the article is not bad, quite instructive.

      No.
      Satellites such as ZhPS and Glonass are in geostationary orbit, 36 thousand km from the Earth. At such a height, satellites cannot be shot down by any weapon.
      In principle, it is possible to shoot down such satellites with special killer satellites. But NATO does not seem to have such.
      1. +8
        15 February 2023 12: 49
        Not geostationary. Glonass in orbits about 19100 km, GPS - 20180 km. But yes, the difference for destruction is not fundamental.
        1. -1
          15 February 2023 23: 48
          There are no missiles that have destroyed a former object at an altitude of 20,000 km. And they are not expected.
      2. 0
        13 May 2023 15: 22
        in space, a nuclear explosion due to an electromagnetic pulse will destroy all satellite electronics and our truth too. For this case, we have a compass at SOB.
  4. +1
    15 February 2023 06: 20
    Yes, it would be nice to modify Geranium to use high-powered ammunition ... what this decision will dramatically increase the range of targets hit.
    1. +4
      15 February 2023 09: 26
      there seems to be 50 kg of explosives anyway - what more?
    2. +3
      15 February 2023 12: 15
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      Yes, it would be nice to modify Geranium to use high-powered ammunition ... what this decision will dramatically increase the range of targets hit.

      Geranium 1 has a fragmentation cumulative warhead with an explosive weight of 12-15 kg on account of its whole MIG - 29 shot down over Kiev
  5. +5
    15 February 2023 06: 28
    "According to the Soviet regulations" the contradictions associated with the requirements for a high density of artillery per kilometer of the front were resolved in a natural way, that is, by the use of tactical nuclear weapons. The very need for the appearance of nuclear weapons follows logically from the practice of military operations. This is a factor that resolves urgent contradictions.

    This is the whole point of using tactical nuclear weapons, which replaces the army "shock fists" of the Second World War.

    If the United States found itself in a similar situation, they would have used a blow of 0,5 kt. even in the early days of the conflict. Absolutely without such losses as the Russian Federation has today. The conflict would end there. Everyone would squeal for a while, and shut up .....

    But we have brought our country to such a level that we are "out of order" to act in a modern war using modern methods.
    1. +18
      15 February 2023 07: 21
      The United States would destroy the enemy's air defense and aviation, and then bomb as much as necessary without introducing ground forces.
      1. +1
        15 February 2023 10: 08
        Quote: Cartalon
        The United States would destroy the enemy's air defense and aviation, and then bomb as much as necessary without introducing ground forces.


        Ah, how simple it is! But then it is not clear why tactical nuclear weapons exist in the World .....

        You first need to explain why the US destroyed air defenses in Yugoslavia but did not do so in Vietnam. And why didn't the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation do this a year ago? Just do not universally explain everything with the impenetrable stupidity of our generals.

        Russia did not destroy Ukraine's air defenses for the same reason the US did not do it in Vietnam. And the US didn't use tactical nuclear weapons then for the same reason we can't do it now.

        If the Armed Forces of Ukraine from Adeevka shelled Donetsk for 8 years, then probably we could also shell them with cannons and rockets for a year? And what's the point.....?
        Think - a whole year!

        The conclusion is simple, modern Avdiyevo fortifications cannot be taken by shells and missiles with warheads of 400 kg.
        1. +3
          15 February 2023 11: 45
          Russia did not destroy Ukraine's air defenses for the same reason the US did not do it in Vietnam.

          What is the reason for such a one-on-two conflict?
          1. +5
            15 February 2023 13: 16
            The reason is good and extends to far more wars than the two mentioned: CANNOT.
        2. 0
          16 February 2023 11: 56
          You first need to explain why the US destroyed air defenses in Yugoslavia but did not do so in Vietnam.


          Just after Vietnam, they spent a lot of money and funds on the suppression of enemy air defenses and the results in the same Yugoslavia and Iraq, some of which can be read in the book Skunk Works.
    2. +8
      15 February 2023 10: 13
      If the United States were in a similar situation

      It is known how the States act in such a situation. First, they attack the air defense, communications and aviation of the enemy, and then carry out massive air strikes, and use the tactics of patrolling in the air - at the slightest manifestation of enemy activity, a quick attack from the air. Tanks and artillery play a supporting role.
      they would have applied a blow of 0,5 to-t. in the early days of the conflict

      With their tactics of using aviation, they simply do not need it
      1. +12
        15 February 2023 11: 10
        The United States would destroy the enemy's air defense and aviation, and then bomb as much as necessary without introducing ground forces.
        I agree.
        Ah, how simple it is!
        Yes. That's it. Everything ingenious is simple ..
        1. +6
          15 February 2023 12: 07
          The Americans first of all bribed the highest military ranks, and when a mess began in the army, they began to work in aviation, etc. First of all, they sought and created a strong fifth column in the country, and then they began hostilities! Where they failed, they lost (Vietnam, Afghanistan). We did not achieve this goal at the beginning of the operation, the Ukrainians sold out to the West because of their mentality! For this reason, the NWO has grown into a full-fledged war! If ours in Ukraine could form the 5th column correctly and on time, the SVO has long ended! I think Naryshkin was well aware of this problem, which is why he stuttered when Putin asked him before the start of the NWO about its expediency and how to carry it out! From 2014 to 2022, the Americans were able to throw us away, completely re-flashing the consciousness of our previously fraternal people!
          1. +2
            15 February 2023 14: 43
            Could ours in Ukraine correctly and on time form the 5th column, the SVO has long ended

            5 column can be created in a democratic, non-ideological state-ve. Ukraine is a totalitarian state with a ban on a different opinion and state ideology, it is not possible to create a 5th column there. The fact that the Kremlin did not understand this means the impenetrable stupidity of the inmates there.
          2. +2
            15 February 2023 17: 20
            All four commanders of the districts in Iraq were matchmakers, brother and son, and a faithful party comrade, provided that one remained alive while the others were executed. And there were also guard divisions, also loyal to Comrade Judge
          3. Eug
            +2
            15 February 2023 19: 30
            Well, well, he was aware, but what did he report "upstairs"? Surely about the successful creation of the notorious 5th ... although - I don’t know ...
      2. +2
        15 February 2023 14: 40
        Quote from solar
        It is known how the States act in such a situation. First, they attack the air defense, communications and aviation of the enemy, and then carry out massive air strikes, and use the tactics of patrolling in the air - at the slightest manifestation of enemy activity, a quick attack from the air. Tanks and artillery play a supporting role.

        Vietnam doesn't tell you anything? then I ask you to visit the channel in YouTube
        Shell-shocked Vetnamophil
        I respect him for his work, I recommend that you view it and understand it’s hard to fight when the enemy has allies from half the world and there is someone to supply from weapons to intelligence.
      3. +1
        15 February 2023 19: 27
        Quote from solar
        It is known how the States act in such a situation. First, they attack the air defense, communications and aviation of the enemy, and then carry out massive air strikes, and use the tactics of patrolling in the air - at the slightest manifestation of enemy activity, a quick attack from the air. Tanks and artillery play a supporting role.

        And the United States did not have opponents with normal air defense. Breaking through the air defense 40 years ago does not need a lot of mind. So this is the wrong example.
        1. 0
          16 February 2023 11: 58
          In Iraq, air defense was at least no weaker than in Ukraine at the time of the start of the NMD.
    3. +1
      15 February 2023 14: 34
      Quote: ivan2022
      If the United States found itself in a similar situation, they would have used a blow of 0,5 kt. even in the early days of the conflict. Absolutely without such losses as the Russian Federation has today.
      If only. If grandma had eggs with horseradish, she would be a grandfather lol
  6. -7
    15 February 2023 06: 41
    Sometimes the fire scheme is built in such a way that the group is first allowed to enter the “fire bag” that is being shot through, then a mortar cut-off is placed behind it and the group begins to destroy not only artillery and mortars, but also small arms from dagger distances.
    I immediately remembered the wise men who shout that it is necessary to bypass the fortifications.
    1. +5
      15 February 2023 07: 47
      Quote: Dart2027
      I immediately remembered the wise men who shout that it is necessary to bypass the fortifications.

      By the way, yes.
      For some reason, it doesn’t reach the wise men that the peasants on the front line know better. And if our fighters act in a certain way, then this is the most optimal way.
      1. +3
        15 February 2023 08: 05
        Yes - yes, Field Marshal Haig fully agrees. True, General Ludendorff has a different point of view.
        1. +4
          15 February 2023 09: 14
          Quote: Cartalon
          True, General Ludendorff has a different point of view.

          Do not take it for work, quote what this general wrote about the offensive in conditions where the enemy has a satellite constellation that constantly transmits information to the enemy, communications that allow you to instantly bring information to the addressee and high-precision weapons.
          1. +4
            15 February 2023 09: 51
            Obviously, he would have thought about how to act in these conditions, but in any case, he would not have stormed Marinka for a year, for this there were Italians, with the eleventh battle on the Isonzo, tactical dead ends in the history of military affairs have met more than once or twice, a way out they were found, due to new weapons and new tactics, but swotting into the most fortified place of the front did not lead anyone and never to success.
            1. -6
              15 February 2023 10: 30
              Quote: Cartalon
              Obviously, I would think about how to act in these conditions.

              That is, nothing.
              Quote: Cartalon
              tactical dead ends in the history of military affairs have met more than once or twice, they found a way out of them, due to new weapons and new tactics

              That's when this very weapon appears, then it will be possible to talk, but for now they are fighting with what they have. And new tactics do not appear from scratch.
            2. +6
              15 February 2023 15: 04
              but swotting into the most fortified place of the front did not lead anyone and never to success.

              There are such bombs as the FAB 500 and there are vacuum bombs, if they sow the Avdiivka area according to the scheme of 100x100 meters, then the effect will be no worse than a tactical nucleus. But there are a lot of residential buildings and ours, at least before, were embarrassed to shoot there, secondly, planes will be shot down if they fly over an object, but you need to bomb from afar, without entering the air defense zone. The Russian Federation is faced with the lack of the required class of weapons - planning bombs. Perhaps there is a way to overcome the tactical impasse. It is necessary to make planning bombs with a range of 80 km.
    2. +5
      15 February 2023 08: 20
      Quote: Dart2027
      I immediately remembered the wise men who shout that it is necessary to bypass the fortifications.

      It doesn’t occur to you that getting around this means for tens, if necessary, for hundreds of kilometers. There is no point in banging your head against the defense. It is impossible to build the same defense everywhere, there are always weak areas. It is necessary to hit them, dismember the defense, surround and destroy, and not arrange Verdun.
      1. -3
        15 February 2023 09: 15
        Quote from cold wind
        It doesn’t occur to you that getting around this means tens, if necessary, hundreds of kilometers.

        Show on the carriage where you can get around for hundreds of kilometers, I really want to see.
        1. +3
          15 February 2023 09: 50
          Easily. Map for April 20, 2022. It was necessary to expand the bridgehead on the right bank and strike along the Dnieper to the north with blocking strikes bypassing south of Kharkov. There was no defense. Naturally, having mobilized people and industry in March.
          Instead, a criminal order was given to destroy the Russian allied troops on the Donbass fortified area. What led to the loss of Kherson, this may lead to the loss of the land corridor, and then the Crimea itself.
          All adequate people at that time wrote about it.
          1. -2
            15 February 2023 10: 34
            Quote from cold wind
            Naturally, having mobilized people and industry in March.

            That is, in March it was necessary to put hundreds of thousands of people under arms, organize them into new units, train, armament, and even rebuild the entire industry? Seriously?
            Quote from cold wind
            It was necessary to expand the bridgehead on the right bank and strike along the Dnieper to the north with blocking strikes bypassing south of Kharkov.

            And receiving blows to the flank from the Armed Forces of Ukraine based on fortified areas.
            1. +3
              15 February 2023 11: 42
              Quote: Dart2027
              That is, in March it was necessary to put hundreds of thousands of people under arms, organize them into new units, train, armament, and even rebuild the entire industry? Seriously?

              That is, there was no need to hope to carry out an operation of such magnitude by the forces of a part of the contract army.
              For comparison, in operations across the ocean on a similar scale, one had to either assemble a coalition or dilute a full-blooded contract army with mobilized ones in a 1: 1 ratio.
              1. 0
                15 February 2023 11: 59
                Quote: Alexey RA
                overseas in operations of similar scale
                Well, who fought there in the same conditions ??
                1. +2
                  15 February 2023 14: 57
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  Well, who fought there in the same conditions ??

                  USA to both Iraqi.
                  In the first campaign, the owners of the largest and most publicized contract army put together an unnatural coalition, in which even Syria took part.
                  And in the second campaign, in order to barge Iraq, which was pretty shattered by sanctions, the US contract army in the theater of operations, it took a doubling due to the mobilized National Guardsmen. And not only for logistics and supplies, but also for the front line.
                  1. -3
                    15 February 2023 15: 51
                    Quote: Alexey RA

                    USA to both Iraqi.

                    Quote: Dart2027
                    fought in greenhouse conditions with an enemy who had neither satellite reconnaissance nor modern communications, and the level of Arab soldiers was always "specific". Well, like a cherry on the cake:
                    For a whole year after the overthrow of Saddam Hussein's regime, the US sent cash to Iraq by plane. A total of $12 billion was sent. This amount has disappeared without a trace. “363 tons of cash was loaded onto C-130 military transport aircraft bound for Baghdad. Who in their right mind would send that much money to a war zone?
                    https://iz.ru/news/321512
                    1. 0
                      16 February 2023 10: 12
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      fought in greenhouse conditions with an enemy who had neither satellite reconnaissance nor modern communications, and the level of Arab soldiers was always "specific".

                      So I wrote that the Iraqi army in the second campaign was not in the best shape.
                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      And in the second campaign, in order to barge Iraq, which was pretty shattered by sanctions, the US contract army in the theater of operations, it took a doubling due to the mobilized National Guardsmen.

                      But, despite this, the United States reinforced the professional army with mobilized National Guardsmen.
                      And here, against a much stronger enemy, they decided to get by with consolidated groups and subdivisions of an incomplete staff of contract soldiers.
                      1. -4
                        16 February 2023 15: 50
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        So I wrote that the Iraqi army in the second campaign was not in the best shape.
                        She was just a generation behind her opponent.
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        And we have against a much stronger opponent
                        With the same success, it was possible to call directly and say - we are advancing on such and such a date, also begin mobilization. And by the way, where did the information about doubling come from? I just asked - there are about a third of the reservists, and they are in the reserve.
              2. +1
                15 February 2023 12: 24
                Quote: Alexey RA
                That is, there was no need to hope to carry out an operation of such magnitude by the forces of a part of the contract army.

                Do you mean that geopoliticians should correlate their geopolitical plans with reality? You, for an hour, are not a liberal?
                1. +2
                  15 February 2023 14: 58
                  Quote: Negro
                  Do you mean that geopoliticians should correlate their geopolitical plans with reality?

                  No, well, I understand that this is fiction - but you can dream. smile
                  Quote: Negro
                  You, for an hour, are not a liberal?

                  I am a pessimistic optimist.
                  Pessimist: "Everything is bad, it can't be worse!"
                  Optimist: "Maybe, how else can!"
              3. +2
                15 February 2023 13: 14
                Quote: Alexey RA
                mobilized in the ratio 1:1

                Well, it turns out that the United States is before wars and during them they are mobilizing. Only there is a nuance. Mobilization of the reserve, not the reserve. Their reservists are regularly trained, 39 days a year.
                1. +3
                  15 February 2023 15: 07
                  The National Guard is not exactly a reserve, but an analogue of the Soviet territorial divisions of the 30s. The training went on in the regime "One weekend per month and two weeks annually" (now, however, the training has been stepped up). And the rest of the time, the assigned staff lives a peaceful life (well, except for getting up to fight the emergency).
                  Well, the National Guardsmen are armed and equipped worse - with what remains of the regular army. In the second Iraqi, EMNIP, there were complaints about the receipt of Vietnam-era equipment by the national guards. smile
                  1. 0
                    15 February 2023 15: 43
                    The National Guard and the reserve of the Armed Forces are different structures. I wrote what I wanted to write.

                    The National Guard consists of:

                    Army National Guard
                    Air National Guard

                    Regular reserves consist of:

                    Army Reserve
                    Navy Reserve
                    Marine Corps Reserve
                    Air Force Reserve
                    Coast Guard Reserve
                2. +2
                  15 February 2023 17: 12
                  Quote from cold wind
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  mobilized in the ratio 1:1

                  Well, it turns out that the United States is before wars and during them they are mobilizing. Only there is a nuance. Mobilization of the reserve, not the reserve. Their reservists are regularly trained, 39 days a year.

                  I remember in the first Rimbaud, John nailed them all :)
                  (Joke of humor)
            2. +3
              15 February 2023 12: 53
              Quote: Dart2027
              That is for March

              Nothing prevented it from being done in September.
              Quote: Dart2027
              And receiving blows to the flank from the Armed Forces of Ukraine based on fortified areas.

              For this, mobilization is needed, to cover the flanks with less trained troops. In addition, then the Armed Forces of Ukraine did not have the funds for this.

              Are you asking who did it? So look, the coalition simply bypassed the fortified areas, blocking them, interrupted control and supply, then dismembered and destroyed them. The main issue is time. After the destruction of the group in the Donbas, Ukraine had nothing to fight with,
              1. -4
                15 February 2023 13: 26
                Quote from cold wind
                Nothing prevented it from being done in September.

                So already in September?
                Quote from cold wind
                For this, mobilization is needed, to cover the flanks with less trained troops.

                And send back wagons with corpses. At the very beginning of the SVO, there were attempts at dashing throws in the spirit of the last century, but it only turned out that in the new reality, several columns were intercepted on the march by Ukrainian DRGs and suffered serious losses. After that, dashing jerks had to be banned.
                Quote from cold wind
                So look, the coalition is just
                fought in greenhouse conditions with an enemy who had neither satellite reconnaissance nor modern communications, and the level of Arab soldiers was always "specific". Well, like a cherry on the cake:
                For a whole year after the overthrow of Saddam Hussein's regime, the US sent cash to Iraq by plane. A total of $12 billion was sent. This amount has disappeared without a trace. “363 tons of cash was loaded onto C-130 military transport aircraft bound for Baghdad. Who in their right mind would send that much money to a war zone?
                https://iz.ru/news/321512
              2. +3
                15 February 2023 14: 06
                Quote from cold wind
                After the destruction of the group in the Donbas, Ukraine had nothing to fight with,

                You are now talking about something else laughing.
                It was made clear to everyone that our goal is the liberation of territories within (borders, sq. km) ... And the fact that wars are won not by capturing settlements (ruins), but by destroying the enemy army, can only be argued by liberals hi
            3. +1
              15 February 2023 15: 04
              That is, in March it was necessary to put hundreds of thousands of people under arms,

              For 8 years (from 2014 to 2022), and the RF Armed Forces already had experience of participating in such a conflict, in South Ossetia, in 2008.
              1. 0
                15 February 2023 15: 49
                Quote: strannik1985
                For 8 years (from 2014 to 2022)
                Did we fight then?
          2. +2
            15 February 2023 21: 14
            After leaving Kiev, the tasks changed. The agenda was the destruction of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and not the seizure of territories. Most wars are fought that way. An example would be Napoleon's campaign in pursuit of the Russian army to Moscow and not to Petersburg, an example of the encirclement of the South-Western Front in 41, sacrificing the pace of the attack on Moscow.
            By the way, I think that it is for this reason that the bridges on the Dnieper have not yet been blown up.
    3. +2
      15 February 2023 09: 11
      It is necessary to bypass the fortifications, only for some reason this means coverage of a couple of kilometers, such as in Ugledar, where it seems that the city is bypassed from the flags, but they operate a couple of kilometers from the suburbs. And you need a girth over a large area, when a city or a fortified area costs tens, and if necessary, hundreds of kilometers, that is, at least as they surround Artemovsk, but in fact there can be an even wider girth. But in order to carry out such actions, even the forces of the corps are not enough, the united actions of the army are needed. That is, at least 50000 people with a full range of weapons and firepower, as well as aviation and, if necessary, a fleet operating in their interests. Then, yes, it will be useful, but you need to develop communication and interaction so that everything is coordinated and there is no friendly fire.
      1. +5
        15 February 2023 09: 16
        Quote: Georgy Sviridov_2
        It is necessary to bypass the fortifications, only for some reason this means coverage of a couple of kilometers, such as in Ugledar, where it seems that the city is bypassed from the flags, but they operate a couple of kilometers from the suburbs.
        Yes, because further, too, the strengthening of the enemy.
      2. +3
        15 February 2023 15: 16
        In fact, there may be an even wider girth.

        And do you think they are fools and will sit and wait until you cover, will not mine the approaches, will not let down the reserve and will not hit the advancing columns?
    4. +1
      15 February 2023 23: 54
      There is no such term - "cut-off". There is a "protective fire". But why does he put it on the retreating enemy, instead of just hitting him??
  7. +3
    15 February 2023 07: 36
    1. "Expensive" foreign howitzers, self-propelled "Crab" / CAESAR, self-propelled can independently perform a counter-fire maneuver, when equipped with self-binding kits and ASUNO, they can be placed by gun.
    https://m.vk.com/@artillery333-taktika-ispolzovaniya-sau-krab-polnaya-versiya
    The division is assigned a maneuvering area, while the time spent at the firing position is no more than 2 minutes.
    2. The 777, L118 and other towed systems have much less ability to maneuver.
    1. +1
      15 February 2023 23: 57
      Well, that's enough! For 2 minutes, you can’t even take an OP, even a fully prepared one. And when will you complete the fire task? Have you seen enough of Skabeeva, or have you read Skoromokhov?
      1. 0
        16 February 2023 11: 27
        Well, enough!

        This means that the self-propelled guns will stop, raise the barrel and fire (if they use stacking), in the case of loading from the ground, the ammunition compartment will lay a dozen shots on the ground in advance. The ASUNO computer will calculate the sight settings while the barrel is rising.
  8. +2
    15 February 2023 07: 58
    One moment confuses me. The appearance of Western artillery in Ukraine forced us to move warehouses and headquarters 40 km or even 80 km from the LBS. Otherwise, there is simply no escape.
    But we don't have range limits. We can hit at any distance with missiles and Geraniums. Why are Ukrainian headquarters and warehouses not taken out all over Ukraine? Why are Ukrainian planes and helicopters still flying? Intelligence not working well? It turns out that they see everything like ours, but they don’t have us? Correct please.
    1. +6
      15 February 2023 08: 12
      Is intelligence bad?

      And this too. It's just that they do not create large warehouses and work from wheels, thanks to clear logistics and the lack of communication work by our aviation. And we even combine a warehouse and a barracks, remember Makiivka. No one seems to have been punished for this, oh no.
    2. +2
      15 February 2023 08: 24
      Quote: Stas157
      One point bothers me. The appearance of Western artillery in Ukraine forced to move

      ... troops from Kherson and Kharkov region. The offensive of the Armed Forces of Ukraine was stopped only by mudslides. Now it is impossible to conduct a mobile war in Ukraine, another is criminal. You can just waste your troops in an unsuccessful meat grinder.
    3. 0
      15 February 2023 09: 17
      Quote: Stas157
      Why are Ukrainian headquarters and warehouses not taken out all over Ukraine?

      Do you even listen to official reports from the Ministry of Defense? They get hit almost every day.
      1. 0
        15 February 2023 21: 12
        And all several thousand have long been destroyed.
        1. +1
          16 February 2023 08: 40
          Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
          And all several thousand have long been destroyed.

          Quote: Georgy Sviridov_2
          Only the United States transferred weapons worth more than $100 billion, that's not counting all the others... Are you really so naive that you think it's so easy to destroy it all? Nevertheless, they have shell hunger, and not ours ...
    4. +3
      15 February 2023 09: 32
      Why not, we hit weapons depots weekly.
      Only the United States transferred weapons worth more than $100 billion, that's not counting all the others... Are you really so naive that you think it's so easy to destroy it all? Nevertheless, they have shell hunger, and not ours ...
  9. +3
    15 February 2023 08: 52
    One way or another, but the concentration of artillery means is impossible for the same reason that the concentration of any means in general is impossible.

    A very strange approach. If we can't do something, then it's impossible?
    In modern wars, there is a concentration in small groups, not columns. To do this, each sergeant and lieutenant must know his maneuver, position and task, have communication and all the necessary means. Here is the problem. With such a quality of command and communications, this is really impossible for us.
    Neither the defenders nor the attackers can afford the open location of artillery crews and the concentration of a large number of guns per unit front.

    From this, a direct conclusion is that artillery must be high-precision, reconnaissance and communications are excellent. There is no way to fire for a long time from one position, there are no huge scandals, logistics in small batches - everything screams about the vital need for high-precision projectiles. But no, the mantra about some T-34s continues.
    1. +1
      15 February 2023 13: 42
      Quote from cold wind
      From this, a direct conclusion is that artillery must be highly accurate,

      I will add - and highly mobile hi
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. +1
      16 February 2023 12: 25
      If they all "concentrate" in one place, then it will not matter whether they were gathered there in columns or what. The column will simply be covered earlier, and this "concentration" later. Now we have come to the conclusion that BTG is already "too big". Wagner already believes that the company is "a lot."
  10. +1
    15 February 2023 08: 58
    the author, you deny yourself logic .. first you tell that in the counter-battery fight, the WTO is excellent, then you say that against the supporters, the WTO is not necessary, but at the same time, do they hold the defense with its help? Well? and the option when high-precision shells (it's faster and cheaper than "Lancets" - which are also WTO) demolish enemy artillery, after which the offensive - dramatically facilitated - was not considered? and in the absence of artillery support, the opornik will not live long ..
    1. +1
      15 February 2023 13: 49
      Quote: Level 2 Advisor
      author, you deny yourself logic ..

      Completely agree with you. Only one statement
      I emphasize once again: infantry field fortifications, even in a forest plantation, and even more so in urban areas, can only be destroyed by long-term shelling with the expenditure of a large amount of ammunition. High accuracy and range do not play a special role here. You simply cannot do without a lunar landscape and plowing.

      what is it worth.
      In general, "shelling" and "lunar landscape" is not an end in itself. The goal should be the destruction of the enemy and not landscaping. Another question is when there are no WTO funds for this, then yes, as usual, we give preference to quantity over quality, justifying that: "There is no other way. It will not be according to science and this is not our method" request
  11. +7
    15 February 2023 09: 16
    Use of infantry mortars up to 60 mm caliber.

    That is, to return to 50-51 mm company mortars? So they were forced out by automatic grenade launchers of the AGS type.
    1. +2
      15 February 2023 09: 30
      And this is the fashion now - to masturbate on a 60-mm mortar. But for me, 160 mm is not enough, only they need to be put on wheels.
    2. +3
      15 February 2023 09: 33
      As practice shows, one complements the other, not replaces. A US infantry company has both AGS and 60mm mortars. Mortars can put smoke and aerosol interference, not only HE work.
  12. +1
    15 February 2023 09: 54
    Looks good at first glance. However, I don't think GLONASS-guided projectiles are that expensive. I would even say - cheaper than Krasnopol. We also have long-range artillery - in the form of Malok, which simply do not have precision-guided projectiles at all. In Soviet times, this problem was solved by "special ammunition".

    From the point of view of the author, it turns out that even Msta is far from optimal. Her barrel also wears out quickly enough, and it is by no means cheap already.
  13. +1
    15 February 2023 09: 58
    They forgot about barrage strike drones with an RPG grenade, which can be fired from a short distance, 300 meters. If one is made completely autonomous and hung over the enemy’s communications, this will cause a collapse of his logistics in the fortifications. End of the war.
    1. +4
      15 February 2023 12: 33
      How to make it completely autonomous and able to hang indefinitely?
      1. 0
        16 February 2023 09: 54
        Infinitely long - means to run in turn without interruption, autonomous - based on AI
  14. +5
    15 February 2023 10: 45
    Creation of a guidance system for the Krasnopol projectiles along the GLONAS coordinates, in addition to the laser illumination beam.
    Your wish has been fulfilled! "Krasnopol-D" was developed with an inertial-satellite guidance system (by the way, GLONASS, not GLONAS!) + laser seeker ... But I think that this is not enough! We need a modification of the projectile with a passive radar seeker! A modification with a television guidance system (TSN) at the final ("terminal") section of the projectile's flight path would not hurt either!
    Application of charges to ATGMs with high-explosive fragmentation and thermobaric parts.
    Available ! The "Kornet-D", for example, has both tandem-cumulative, and thermobaric, and high-explosive fragmentation ...
    Use of infantry mortars up to 60 mm caliber.
    And why the hell to introduce an additional caliber and annoy the "supplies"? There is already an 82-mm mortar "Gall" ... (1. The firing range is commensurate with the range of "sixties"; 2. The mortar is lighter than the "Tray"; 3. The shot is lighter than the shot to the "Tray" ...) In addition, in the DPR , for example, they made in one of the workshops a "company" 82-mm mortar ... with a shortened barrel, with a "small-sized" plate, and, therefore, lighter (!), With a firing range of 1,5 km ... shot weight less shot to the "Tray" due to a decrease in propellant charge ...
    4.Designing a control system for existing or new air bombs for planning from high altitude with target guidance from beyond the capabilities of defeating MANPADS.
    It is necessary to have a tactical or operational-tactical missile with a powerful warhead that could "steering" to the target, like an aerial bomb, for example ... As a "sample" you can present the South Korean ballistic missile Hyunmoo 5, which in a certain sense is "universal"! That is, it can deliver a 1-ton warhead to the target at a distance of over 3000 km or an 8-ton warhead at a distance of up to 300 km! In terms of weight and size characteristics, it is comparable to the Soviet RSD-10 "Pioneer"! But for now, I do not insist on the resumption of production of the modernized (!) "Pioneer"! I'm waiting for the hypersonic "Snake"! It was "conceived" as an anti-ship complex, but we already know how SCRCs are used in the NWO!
    1. +2
      15 February 2023 13: 13
      You can’t take a lot of 82-mm mortars with you (unlike 60-mm), but, to be honest, a 60-mm mortar now is either from poverty or laziness. I don’t see the point in it in the presence of automatic grenade launchers. AGS-30 has an acceptable weight for company weapons.
  15. -6
    15 February 2023 10: 52
    The author painted everything on the case, neither add nor take away, "offers" are generally brilliant, and by the way, hello to the all-weepers - "criticizing - offer", otherwise you are a stupid bawler.
    But here is the sect of witnesses of the Holy Chimera, now it will clearly come out to gomno))) Although the author clearly substantiated his words
  16. +2
    15 February 2023 11: 33
    will be detected and covered by the enemy or even at the stage of accumulation at the initial line of attack

    Auto RU. The starting line and the line of transition to the attack are two different lines. The transition from one to another usually occurs sequentially, though sometimes it happens that they almost coincide. sad
    1. +3
      15 February 2023 15: 34
      What are you talking about when an author writing about artillery has it "strike"? Terminology is clearly not his forte.
  17. +3
    15 February 2023 11: 42
    In any case, you need to look at the root, as one famous character broadcast.
    If you have been provided with a field of fire with many traps and you have an itch to go along it, take care first that the enemy cannot see you, for example, with a radio-video-heat-tight curtain, and occupy it with something during your advance, for example, with a dense shelling of thermobaric ammunition ( Sunshine to help you).
    In general, the situation in Avdiivka described by the author as a solution involves flooding the entire surrounding field with napalm, clearing the field with remote demining, and only then walking along it, hiding behind a veil from observation.
  18. +1
    15 February 2023 13: 14
    Quote: insafufa
    And here are our defective managers, too, why new ones when there are a bunch of old ones and shots for them. Nothing has changed in 90 years.

    On the contrary, the "efficient" managers abandoned most of the old shotguns - 57, 76, 85 and 100 and 130 mm cannons, 82 and 120 mm mines, old MLRS and ATGMs, Tochka missiles and decided to replace everything with 152 and 203 mm self-propelled guns and Iskanders in the ratio of one new artillery system in place of 10 old ones and 1 shot in place of a thousand. Let's take the path of the expensive Wunderwaffe to the place of the cheap Volkswaffe. The same mistake that the German Reich made in 1943 and realized only in 1945.
  19. +1
    15 February 2023 13: 20
    ... UAV type "Lancet", possibly with a tandem, cumulative part.

    I ask the author to explain why loitering ammunition tandem warhead? To overcome dynamic protection, I would venture to suggest, but I realize that dynamic protection does not cover 100% of the target surface, including the roof and rear projection, where a remotely controlled kamikaze drone may well fly - a matter of guidance. Then what is she for?
    1. +1
      15 February 2023 15: 13
      Quote: Proctologist
      To overcome dynamic protection, I would venture to suggest, but I realize that dynamic protection does not cover 100% of the target surface, including the roof and rear projection, where a remotely controlled kamikaze drone may well fly - a matter of guidance.

      Have you seen videos from shock UAVs? There, on the final section of the trajectory, it is almost impossible (once) to reach the point - they often just hit the silhouette. And then you can get into the tower with its scales of DZ blocks on the roof.
      1. 0
        17 February 2023 01: 47
        In the upper projection behind the remote sensing, the armor thickness is still small. And DZ only partially reduces the armor penetration of the cumulative jet. As for aiming, well, for example, during the tests of the Mi-28 they boasted that they could put a rocket in the left or right track of the tank to choose from on a bet. So it depends on what to beat and where.
  20. +2
    15 February 2023 13: 37
    The end point in the confrontation of concepts will be put by the course of the SVO, however, I will assume that the result will be the same as in the tank confrontation of the Great Patriotic War, when massive, remotely suitable, simple thirty-fours turned out to be the right choice,

    Does the author agree to commensurate losses? It would be nice for him to see how many T-34s were lost during the war years.
  21. +1
    15 February 2023 14: 14
    Designing a control system for existing or new air bombs for planning from high altitude with target guidance from beyond the capabilities of defeating MANPADS.

    Yes Yes! Let's design! And more layouts! Prototypes! Exhibitions! International salons! Parades!
  22. BAI
    +3
    15 February 2023 14: 52
    Analysis, so to speak, of recent history, not even history - today. And the photo with shells is from the First World War. More than 100 years.
    Shells from artillery shells fired at "Hill 60" by the British during the fighting south of Ypres, Belgium. As a result of shelling, the height of the hill decreased from 18 meters to 4 meters.
  23. +2
    15 February 2023 15: 55
    So I'm wondering what is more expensive to produce Krasnopol or an adjustable 122 mm rocket for Tornado-G (grad)?
  24. +1
    15 February 2023 16: 29
    "I emphasize once again: infantry field fortifications, even in a forest plantation, and even more so in urban areas, can only be destroyed by long-term shelling with the expenditure of a large amount of ammunition. High-precision and range do not play a special role here"

    If mass production of GLONASS-guided munitions is set up, I think the cost will not be that big. And most likely it will be more economical to destroy various dugouts with them than to spend dozens of ordinary shells. And of course you need good intelligence.
    1. 0
      15 February 2023 21: 40
      Our army in the Second World War had such "fortified areas" as Avdiivka, Vugledar, etc. didn't even notice. Bypassed, blocked the garrison and destroyed. There is a lot of experience in storming the Maginot Line, Mannerheim of Soviet URs, Königsberg, etc. We don't have problems like we have now. If everything is done according to science, then the capture of any fortifications does not cause difficulty. The main thing is to encircle to stop the supply of ammunition and reinforcements. Only our generals beat their foreheads against the wall. During the war, the Germans did not bathe, bypassed the fortifications with tanks, smashed the rear, and the infantry finished off the encirclement.
    2. +1
      17 February 2023 01: 41
      It is necessary not to make shells, but body kits, as the Americans do. For the Americans, a bomb costs 50 thousand dollars, and a body kit for it is 200. Only 250. And ours are specially sharpening a projectile that will cost a million. The Americans simply wind a small correction block onto an old projectile from storage, and here's a guided projectile for you. Ours specifically needs to develop something new and expensive in order to steal more from the budget.
  25. DO
    +2
    15 February 2023 19: 03
    Installation on the UAV of the "Geran" type of targeting and course correction by the operator.

    Yes, in the company of Lancets1 and 3, for hunting heavy "animals", there are clearly not enough older "sisters" - Geranium-1 and Geranium2, with the same video guidance.
    And for the Lancets, which have a relatively short range, you can work out their delivery to a remote target square using an UAV carrier (for example, Orion or its imported equivalent).
    Development of a self-propelled, heavily armored or robotic platform to suppress weapon emplacements in close contact with an assault infantry unit. Something between a classic tank (which is not well protected for this purpose) and the BMPT "Terminator" (which does not have heavy weapons, except for ATGMs).

    A robotic tank (and this may be a modernized old machine) can be controlled from the outside not only via a radio channel, but also via a disposable fiber (on a coil up to 2 km long) without a cable sheath, which looks like a fishing line. Naturally, the fibers must be repeatedly redundant from different points in case of a break.
    Creation of a guidance system for the Krasnopol projectiles along the GLONASS coordinates, in addition to the laser illumination beam.

    In the event of a direct conflict between Russia and the US / NATO, the first thing the Americans will do is disable the GLONASS satellites.
    And since such a conflict is very likely, here and now it is not worth spending resources on the development of Krasnopol-GLONASS shells. It is better to rivet more laser-guided shells. In general, it is better to prepare for hypothetically military operations without satellites.
    1. 0
      31 March 2023 00: 37
      In the dupu, this is laser guidance, there is no one there at such distances to highlight the target with a laser.
  26. +2
    15 February 2023 22: 51
    Actually, the SVO did not discover anything new in the use of artillery. Everything was predicted in theory even before the start of the NWO, and something else in the 1980s. That the generals ignored this is another question.

    1. The requirement of the highest mobility from artillery. Taking into account the massive use of counter-battery radars, satellite reconnaissance, drones, loitering ammunition, high-precision projectiles (including the BONUS type that do not require laser illumination or precise coordinates), staying in one place for more than a minute or two becomes a mortal risk. He arrived quickly, quickly (but not into milk) shot back, quickly left. Equipped positions, loading from the ground - this is all the day before yesterday.

    2. Based on the previous, full-fledged artillery can only be self-propelled. Towed guns can only be kept for specific conditions/tasks. Now they are massively used by both sides only because the need for artillery is great, and there are still a lot of them in warehouses. But they are lost (again) by both sides much easier than self-propelled guns. This is probably the last major war for towed artillery.

    3. Effective enemy counter-forces to fire at the maximum range (hence the maximum charge). Shooting with an incomplete charge will only be practiced sporadically. This practically turns a howitzer (all NATO and most of the Russian artillery are howitzers) into a cannon and reduces the barrel resource to a minimum (1500-2500 rounds). The resource of the barrel, therefore, for a long time becomes the same limiting factor in the consumption of ammunition as the presence of the ammunition itself.

    4. A complex multi-stage system of decision-making and approval to open fire should be minimized. Roughly speaking, the command of the brigade should only directly control artillery fire when the brigade has undergone a large-scale offensive along its entire front (and then it is necessary to single out the most priority areas of defense that need support). During periods of calm, all incoming data from drones, ground forces or anything else should go to a single network, and each individual weapon should have real-time access to this data in order to immediately hit the spotted target without requests of its own decision.

    5. Since long fire with adjustment is not possible due to paragraph 1, there is no point in using bulky batteries and, especially, divisions. Ideally, each weapon should move separately, but at the same time any number of them (within reasonable limits) should be able to immediately combine from different positions against the same target.

    6. The need to quickly (in 1-2 minutes) hit the detected target requires the ammunition of each self-propelled gun to have at least one Excalibur-type projectile (for stationary targets) and two BONUS-type (for armored vehicles). In the future, the proportion of such high-precision munitions should increase. Even though the Excalibur costs 200 times more than a conventional 155mm projectile, a number of factors play in its favor:
    - at an equal cost, the industry still produces one guided projectile faster than 200 conventional ones
    - if you need to quickly change position, the ability to hit a target with one or two shots looks much more interesting than the ability to hit it with 200 shots (especially if the target itself can change position)
    - logistics is also simplified by 200 times, which is especially valuable if the enemy is trying and has the ability to break it
    1. 0
      16 February 2023 00: 09
      You have 6 statements. Every single one, wildly wrong. Beautifully painted, apparently not the first time. But you don't understand how art works. And so much information from real databases is now available!
  27. +2
    15 February 2023 22: 54
    Definitely a plus. clearly and to the point. Thanks author.
  28. 0
    17 February 2023 01: 23
    We started the article for health - finished for the rest. The first part was so beautiful that I already thought that the man was really from the front. But apparently, of course, the author was interested in the state of affairs. The main problem of the second and third parts is that the author does not understand that the country's economy is no longer Soviet and it cannot produce so many shells to plow the fields endlessly. And these shells are not as cheap as he thinks. And the price of a projectile here does not determine the amount of production capacity. And they are few. And you don’t have to chase every infantryman with an artillery shell. Why put an expensive projectile there if it is enough to drop the VOG from the quadric, or several from the AGS?
    As for the Lancets, etc., they also consume imported components that are under sanctions, which means there will not be as many of them as they should.
    About Geranium, people also adequately answered - you will not recycle it. And if you recycle, it will no longer be Geranium, but something 10 times more expensive. The problems of the Russian army rest on the fact that the country's economy is weak and not self-sufficient. In fact, this conflict is controlled by the Americans. It is they who determine how intense this conflict will be. And here you need to understand that in addition to the high-precision M777, they also have the M119, which can deal with just the lunar landscape. Therefore, to hope that they will end up with something there, that it is dear to them, etc. not worth it. These guys are trying to figure out the perfect value for money here. They conduct experiments anyway at the expense of Russians and Ukrainians, so why don't they have fun? Therefore, posing the question about "the poor and the healthy and the rich and the sick" is not relevant. If you look at the characteristics of American artillery, you can see how they combine it. They give a high and high-precision rate of fire in the first three minutes, eight shots each, in fact, when it is necessary to engage in high-precision counter-battery combat. And then they sharply reduce this figure to three shots per minute. Those. you either accurately hit a previously reconnoitered position for three minutes and roll out of position, or slowly and relaxed, systematically processing enemy fortifications when enemy artillery has already been neutralized. So Americans manage to be both rich and healthy. And there is also a wide choice of shells: there are high-precision expensive ones, there are inexpensive ones for lunar landscapes. And all for the same weapon. It does not need to be opposed. These are just different tasks, each having its own niche on the battlefield.
  29. 0
    31 March 2023 00: 28
    Once again, everything is fine, beautiful marquise.
    Unfortunately, guided munitions are much better for hitting a trench and anything in general, since ordinary ones have to spend not one or two, but almost a wagon. Reasoning in the style of yes we will spam them with hats / shit guns rests on a situation where warehouses and command posts are purposefully knocked out to us from a distance at which we cannot do anything promptly. And in the end, it suddenly turns out that expensive high-precision and long-range artillery is cheaper than the so-called "mass and budget"
  30. 0
    14 May 2023 17: 19
    Artillery can be dispersed by guns and fire at one target if each gun has the means of binding to the ground and the ability to calculate corrections for each gun. And even a smartphone can provide this. And with one fire raid they will no longer be suppressed. Exactly (within the limits of tabular deviations) it is possible to shoot with an ordinary projectile, if it is possible to adjust the fire from the same UAV. Another thing is that we have not produced towed guns since the mid-90s, with the exception, it seems, of Nona. And self-propelled guns produced almost a division a year.