Leopard 2A4 for Ukraine: how can we punch the German "cat" in the face

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Leopard 2A4 for Ukraine: how can we punch the German "cat" in the face

A lot has been said and written about the fact that Germany and a number of other countries have already made the final decision to supply Ukrainian troops with their Leopards-2, so we won’t talk about how we have come to such a life, and we won’t talk about the sacred “red lines”.

Something else is interesting here. The fact is that a considerable part of the deliveries will consist of relatively old modifications. tanks under the index "Leopard-2A4". They will be given by the Poles, Norwegians, Spaniards and even the Germans themselves, who have promised to allocate a whole battalion of obsolete vehicles.



Junk, of course, junk, but what can the protection of these steel "cats" give, and what can we oppose to it?

A little about the tarnished reputation of the tank


The question regarding the reputation of the Leopard-2A4 is quite interesting. On the one hand, it is impossible to deny a lot of advantages of this machine, which includes ease of use, high reliability and increased resource of the main components and assemblies, electronics, and so on. In general, everything that is inherent in German military equipment.

On the other hand, there was the Syrian war and Turkey's decision to participate in it through direct intervention against the Kurds. It seems that many saw the consequences of this in the form of a certain number of Turkish Leopards-2A4 gouged into the trash. Later, versions were even put forward that some of the tanks were destroyed from the oldest Soviet anti-tank missile system "Malyutka", which belongs to the first generation of such systems.


Let's agree, the blow to the reputation was crushing, but only within the general public. Here, after all, the rule is simple: showed on TV or in articles on the Internet a few photos or videos with lined equipment, and in the eyes of the average layman it automatically becomes bad, with thin armor, and it was obviously made by fools who do not understand anything about it.

In fact, the combat use of Turkish tanks and all these incidents with their defeat cannot give a full picture of the Leopard-2A4 armor. Still, the side projections, where they often flew in, as well as the stern and the roof, are the weak spots of absolutely any tank, whether it be at least the Leopard, even the T-72B3, even the Challenger-2. So there’s not even anything to talk about here: during the special operation, when the German “gifts” reach the front, there will be similar situations. An anti-tank grenade, and even more so a missile on board, can most likely lead to the expected result in the form of a vehicle failure, crew injuries, fire, and so on.


A tank's security should be assessed primarily by looking at its frontal parts of the hull and turret, where the bulk of the armor is concentrated. You can, of course, argue for a long time that no one shoots in the forehead, but the Leopard-2A4, like all serial tanks existing in the world, is built according to the principles of differentiated armor and does not imply other approaches to assessment.

And here an interesting situation emerges: there are no statistics at all on the “Germans” destroyed or simply knocked out in the forehead. Therefore, we cannot yet unequivocally answer the question of whether the tank is poorly protected or not. Practice will show this. However, the available data suggests that it will not become a very difficult opponent for our anti-tank weapons, but it can rattle nerves.

Modern indicators do not match


Still, the Leopard-2A4 is a rather old car, so it’s clearly not worth making a very high-tech miracle or a “wunderwaffe” out of it, which can bring its owner’s troops to some transcendental level. Although Western experts of various calibers, as well as nimble editors of Wikipedia, managed to attribute to this old man the magical ability to fend off exclusively all Russian shells, from sub-caliber to the most advanced missiles with a cumulative warhead.

In reality, things turn out a little differently. Serial production of this particular modification of the Leopard for the needs of the Bundeswehr began at the end of 1985 and lasted almost six years until March 1992. Tanks of this release for the entire period of time received two armor options, which are designated as B-tech and C-tech.


All tanks produced from 1985 to 1987 had protection configuration B. Production vehicles from 1988 to 1992 already had more advanced C armor with increased durability. No other booking in the Leopard-2A4 was provided for either in export copies or for the internal needs of the German Ministry of Defense. Therefore, tanks will arrive in Ukraine either with the first or with the second protection option, which, by the way, are not distinguished by huge indicators of durability.

At the moment, there is no specific and official data on what components were contained in one or another booking option. All that can be said with some certainty is the presence of ceramics and other high-hard inserts, coupled with semi-active armor that uses the energy of a cumulative jet to destroy it. In the West, such elements are called NERA (Non-Explosive Reactive Armor). In our country, by the way, almost all advanced tanks are equipped with such in different variations, so this is by no means the prerogative of "NATO" vehicles.

However, if the composition of the reservation is not very clear, then the tender for the supply of Leopards-2 to Sweden brings clarity in terms of indicators of its durability. There, both the Germans and the Swedes tried to give a more or less clear picture not only of the prototypes of the tank in the face of the Leopard 2 Improved (an improved vehicle, the solutions of which were partially implemented on the Leopard-2A5) and Strv-122 (the Swedish version of the Leopard- 2A5" with reinforced protection). Our Leopard-2A4 also lit up there.

On the left, the resistance indicators of the Leopard-2A4 with type B armor against sub-caliber shells in heading angles. On the right are the indicators of the same tank, equipped with additional armor modules on the turret and hull according to the Leopard 2 Improved program.
On the left, the resistance indicators of the Leopard-2A4 with type B armor against sub-caliber shells in heading angles. On the right are the indicators of the same tank, equipped with additional armor modules on the turret and hull according to the Leopard 2 Improved program.

Judging by the illustration, the entire frontal projection of the Leopard-2A4 tank with the armor of option B is approximately 60-70% protected from sub-caliber shells with a penetration of about 300 millimeters in steel equivalent. As for more powerful ammunition with a penetration capacity of 400-500 mm, we are talking about literally 20-30 percent when fired directly into the forehead.

In general, judging by open data, the Leopard-2A4 with type B armor holds sub-caliber shells with a penetration of 350-400 mm and cumulative shells with a penetration of up to 600-700 mm in the forehead. This is not even the level of late Soviet tanks, such as the T-72B and T-80U, which provided a greater level of protection without dynamic protection due to passive armor alone.

Reinforced protection (C-tech) of the late Leopard-2A4 version, although it differs from the early version of the armor, did not bring anything radical in principle. The performance of its resistance can be judged to some extent by the British report, in which the British tried to evaluate them and compare them with those of their Challenger.

British assessment of the durability of the Leopard-2 turret with old and new armor. KE - resistance against sub-caliber projectiles; CE - resistance against cumulative agents
British assessment of the durability of the Leopard-2 turret with old and new armor. KE - resistance against sub-caliber projectiles, CE - resistance against cumulative means

So, the reinforced armor of the "Leopard" in the frontal projection of the tower gives 410-420 mm from sub-caliber projectiles and 750-800 mm from HEAT weapons. On the forehead of the hull, apparently, the results are about the same. Even in this design, the protection of the tank is about 20 percent weaker than that of the Soviet T-72B and T-80U without dynamic protection.

In general, armor by the end of the 80s was far from being the most advanced, and by today's standards it was completely outdated. Although it is impossible to call it absolutely useless. It cannot be overcome by the old means.

What to break through?


We already briefly spoke about the sides, the stern and other vulnerabilities above - when fired at a right (or so) angle, even fairly ancient grenade launchers and anti-tank missile systems can do a lot of things. However, even the armor-piercing shells of the 30mm automatic cannons will inflict heavy damage on a German tank with some degree of probability.

Do not forget about artillery, mines and drones, dangerous for any armored vehicle in the NWO zone, and not only.

As for the frontal projection of the Leopard-2A4, tank cumulative shells, grenade launchers of old modifications and very old anti-tank systems will not have the desired effect. The latter will be useful to know for those who are actively promoting the idea that it is possible to cope with the German "cat" with some complex like "Malyutka" of the 60s.

However, there are a lot of means by which you can properly buy the "German" in the forehead.

Of the tank ammunition, first of all, sub-caliber shells should be noted. Their uranium modifications, it seems, were not brought into the special operation zone, so the Soviet Mangoes, and even more so the Russian Leads in tungsten version, if any, may be quite effective.

Tank guided missiles can also be used. In terms of convenience and frequency of use, they, I think, are far from in the first place, but the same Invar and its modernized version will cope with German armor.

Of the specialized anti-tank weapons, the missiles of the Shturm, Khrizantema-S, Konkurs-M complexes, as well as the Metis-M and Kornet anti-tank systems will show good effectiveness against the Leopard-2A4 armor.

It is possible and necessary to summarize this list with a rather interesting illustration that appeared on the net. Its author/authors described in sufficient detail how to beat a German guest, so many thanks to them for this.

Image source: odetievbrony.ru
Image source: odetievbrony.ru

Image source: odetievbrony.ru
Image source: odetievbrony.ru
219 comments
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  1. +29
    6 February 2023 04: 28
    Leopard 2A4 for Ukraine: how can we punch the German "cat" in the face
    not "cats" should be beaten in the face, but "sholts". this is the edge - tanks with crosses against us. raise the question of German survival.
    1. +13
      6 February 2023 04: 50
      Quote: Grandfather is caste
      the question of German survival.
      Or maybe we will restore the Nord Streams? recourse
      1. +11
        6 February 2023 04: 52
        Quote: Uncle Lee
        Quote: Grandfather is caste
        the question of German survival.
        Or maybe we will restore the Nord Streams? recourse


        And we will sell gas at $15 per 1000 cubic meters laughing
        1. +11
          6 February 2023 05: 39
          Quote: Carat
          And we will sell gas for $15

          For $16,5! Not to your own detriment! wink
          1. Alf
            +4
            6 February 2023 20: 30
            Quote: Uncle Lee
            Quote: Carat
            And we will sell gas for $15

            For $16,5! Not to your own detriment! wink

            And we can do 15 greens, in the same place the partners freeze ... And we compensate the difference inside ...
            1. 0
              11 February 2023 09: 00
              And for such advice, the first whip to the adviser. Colleague, you understand that they are reading IT !!! God forbid anyone at night a genital thought visits, and in the morning it projects on a piece of paper and vote, vote ....
              1. Alf
                0
                11 February 2023 21: 16
                Quote: Beck69
                And for such advice, the first whip to the adviser.

                Bro, I do not understand, what kind of raids? laughing
      2. +1
        7 February 2023 14: 12
        Uncle Lee. For such a German friend, there is no need to be greedy. It is possible to put submarines in a row on the sites of the blown up parts of the gas pipeline and pass gas through them for a beloved friend. This is necessary, so try for the enemies and not see the troubles of your people. The people have no money, they will manage.
      3. 0
        28 March 2023 18: 54
        Crow! There is nothing to be surprised, but for dear "partners" they can restore it. We're not like that.
    2. +3
      6 February 2023 05: 12
      Why is the author obsessed with ground-based systems for the destruction of "leopards" the time for bundles of grenades seems to have passed. They completely forgot that there is a K-52 "alligator", which is sharpened to destroy the same tanks, armed with an anti-tank missile system (ATGM) "Shturm-VU" and equipped with ATGM 9M120-1 "Ataka" with a laser homing head, unguided aircraft missiles of the class “air-to-ground” caliber up to 240 mm, it has long been clear to everyone that if a tank has at least some of the most powerful frontal armor, the upper part is always vulnerable to the same drones, and without active dynamic protection it’s just a target in a shooting range.
      1. +10
        6 February 2023 05: 31
        Why is the author obsessed with ground-based systems for the destruction of "leopards" the time for bundles of grenades seems to have passed. They completely forgot that there is a K-52 "alligator", which is sharpened to destroy the same tanks, armed with an anti-tank missile system (ATGM) "Shturm-VU


        So the "attack" is already listed in the material. request
        1. +9
          6 February 2023 07: 43
          Plus, engineering structures, given the large weight and characteristics of the soil - a ditch, a hose, a pump - mud baths can be very useful.
        2. 0
          7 February 2023 14: 14
          So the "attack" is expensive, but a bunch of grenades and one unit, as if for free.
      2. +7
        6 February 2023 09: 33
        I don’t know if it’s true or not, but Wikipedia says (with a link to the article) that the Russian Federation lost more than 25% of all its Ka-52s, and it was precisely such losses in equipment and qualified crews that forced the use of helicopters without crossing the front line due to the saturation of the enemy STINGERS
        1. +9
          6 February 2023 11: 33
          I don’t know if it’s true or not, but Wikipedia says (with a link to the article)

          These numbers are just taken from the air. In other words, lies. Pay attention to the link that comments on these words. There, some journalist from Forbes pathetically and biasedly writes about the brave Ukrainian air defense nicknames destroying Russian helicopters with "thousands of missiles", while summing up, he refers to the statements of some "independent experts" about 25% of the downed Ka-52s. What kind of experts, where did they get the statistics from, where is it published - nothing. And you read it on Wikipedia and believe. And then you rewrite here.
          ps Yes, even mathematically they do not add up. Above are the figures for the total number of aircraft in service with the Russian Federation - 133. Below is indicated about 25 units of destroyed helicopters. And now the question is - can 25 cars make up 25% of 133?
          1. Aag
            +11
            6 February 2023 16: 27
            Quote: Ka-52
            I don’t know if it’s true or not, but Wikipedia says (with a link to the article)

            These numbers are just taken from the air. In other words, lies. Pay attention to the link that comments on these words. There, some journalist from Forbes pathetically and biasedly writes about the brave Ukrainian air defense nicknames destroying Russian helicopters with "thousands of missiles", while summing up, he refers to the statements of some "independent experts" about 25% of the downed Ka-52s. What kind of experts, where did they get the statistics from, where is it published - nothing. And you read it on Wikipedia and believe. And then you rewrite here.
            ps Yes, even mathematically they do not add up. Above are the figures for the total number of aircraft in service with the Russian Federation - 133. Below is indicated about 25 units of destroyed helicopters. And now the question is - can 25 cars make up 25% of 133?

            Where the figures are taken from is not known for certain. But the man under the nickname Mikhail Krasnopalov, in the first five words of his commentary, indicated both his attitude and the reliability of the information. It is so?
            This is me to the manners of communication on the forum ...
            .. There are lovers to write down any opponent, and not just an opponent, - just ... anyone, in the "officer's daughter", "CIPSO employee ... hi
            With regards to the available, lost, in service Ka-52s, it seems that there are not many people who know here (I hope they will remain silent). It is easier to count the Yars.
            But what they give out in the domestic media about the actions of aviation in general, and front-line aviation in particular - firing by NURSs from a nose-up (if this is true - and not a screen) - sorry, suggests that for LBS to fly ... risky (sorry - not quite the correct term when maintaining a b / a), impractical (there are more tanks than helicopters, and even more MANPADS), etc ...
            Once again I urge my colleagues to normal productive communication.
            Irritants and so on in abundance.
            hi
            1. 0
              7 February 2023 05: 18
              What is this stupid text of yours for? Next time, before you write, formulate your idea more specifically and substantively.
          2. +5
            7 February 2023 13: 25
            according to Orix, 31 Ka-52s are lost. They can be accused of bias, but every loss is accompanied by a photo. It can also be attributed to photoshop, but I consider their numbers close to the truth in terms of "no less than ..." - that is, not all losses can be taken into account, some are hidden, but what they calculated is most likely true . The enemy does not have a Ka-52, which means there can be no mistake in the ownership of the wreckage, only the version of multiple shooting of the same helicopter from different angles and dragging to different locations remains. So-so version, in my opinion.
          3. The comment was deleted.
        2. +3
          6 February 2023 19: 57
          Well, even if you read the wiki article itself. They write there for 2022 in the Russian Federation 133 K-52, then they write that the losses are 25 pieces and then they write more than 25% in this way ... Well, this is a deuce in mathematics. Because it's less than 19%.
          1. +3
            7 February 2023 01: 52
            Well, even if you read the wiki article itself. They write there for 2022 in the Russian Federation 133 K-52, then they write that the losses are 25 pieces and then they write more than 25% in this way ... Well, this is a deuce in mathematics. Because it's less than 19%.
          2. 0
            28 March 2023 18: 16
            Losses are also not direct, it can be easier to write off equipment than to repair it, so it’s enough to count the percentages for today 33 lost, two in the form of a trophy, this is something that has already been proven with photos and videos.
        3. +2
          7 February 2023 03: 14
          Yesterday, in a cart, following a link to Turkish resources (according to Mossad), the total losses of the parties for the year were announced. There are personnel, armored personnel carriers, aircraft, helicopters, air defense systems. For helicopters of all types of the Russian Federation, 56 pieces were lost against 302 Germans. If the total fleet of all types of helicopters is 1500 (2020 data), then 56 is clearly not 25%. To believe, not to believe these data, but at least something, more or less real.
      3. +5
        6 February 2023 10: 35
        Quote from Silver99
        equipped with ATGM 9M120-1 "Attack" with a laser homing head,

        "Attack" does not have laser homing! No.
      4. BAI
        0
        6 February 2023 11: 05
        There was a transfer on the "Star". It was said there that helicopters are guaranteed to destroy any NATO tank at a distance of up to 10 km
        1. +13
          6 February 2023 12: 44
          But they didn’t explain at Zvezda why they shoot at NATO tanks for 10 km if the attack has a distance of up to 6 km?

          I'll guess - a whirlwind, which must be directed and held on the target with a laser beam, i.e. the target must be in line of sight while the helicopter is being hit from all the air defense systems in the area.
          1. +5
            7 February 2023 03: 31
            Quote from Gromit
            But they didn’t explain at Zvezda why they shoot at NATO tanks for 10 km if the attack has a distance of up to 6 km?

            I'll guess - a whirlwind, which must be directed and held on the target with a laser beam, i.e. the target must be in line of sight while the helicopter is being hit from all the air defense systems in the area.

            That's right! But ... the use of ATGMs by helicopters is designed to destroy enemy armored vehicles on the front line! And now the TTX Shturm-V has a real range of 6 km! (he himself hit from 6500m and the engine on the rocket worked!). And now air defense - the range of operation of MANPADS is 5 km. Comparing these numbers, it turns out that MANPADS should be ahead of the attacking (defensive) tanks? On the defensive, maybe not on the offensive! The rest of the air defense is the same (the more expensive and the longer the range, the deeper into the rear!). So, as always, it will not be the performance characteristics that will be decided on the battlefield, but the preparedness and skill of specific crews! So, not much has changed since WWII!
            1. 0
              7 February 2023 19: 40
              The helicopter (plane) of the battlefield is always vulnerable, but this is an effective means of destruction, which means it will be used. Otherwise, what was it made for? To scare the adversary and housewives to calm down? Like, if anything, we wow. This time has come, we must win the war by all available means.
            2. 0
              7 February 2023 20: 18
              Quote: non-primary
              Comparing these numbers, it turns out that MANPADS should be ahead of the attacking (defensive) tanks?

              in vain you are so. The tank can be camouflaged, and the MANPADS operator will detect the target earlier than the ATGM operator
        2. yho
          -1
          6 February 2023 23: 27
          Yes, with a volley of NURSs from a roll-up they pierce the roof of the tower, into the light one.
          The roof just slides off.
        3. The comment was deleted.
      5. BAI
        +1
        6 February 2023 11: 08
        Mi-28 anti-tank helicopter. Just at night, it hits warm engines very successfully in the Donbass. Featured on Star
        1. Aag
          +15
          6 February 2023 16: 41
          Quote: BAI
          Mi-28 anti-tank helicopter. Just at night, it hits warm engines very successfully in the Donbass. Featured on Star

          And the helicopter (any) is so silent and cold ...
          The crew can leave the car, take cover during the attack? Abstracting from the "price" of human life: how long can it take to prepare a crew for a tank? By helicopter? How much will it cost?
          And yet - even in the steppe part of the theater, the tank can find shelter. And the helicopter?
          "Star" - she is so ... Sometimes he himself looked to ... cheer up. Like, not all of us are so sad. But, when it came to familiar topics, how they are presented on the channel: at first he whinnied ... Then he cried.
          hi
          1. +11
            6 February 2023 18: 34
            That's right: she's a star. During the years of military service, we called the program "Serving the Soviet Union" "Visiting a fairy tale." Sometimes I watch the Star and come to the conclusion that such a channel is generally superfluous. Never covers the problems of the army.
            1. 0
              7 February 2023 11: 11
              Adequate people watching the "Star" - I do not know. This is a miserable agitprop of the Shaman's era, whose star, in turn, ingloriously went down as more and more "mega-successes" observed by the world in the preparation and conduct of the so-called SVO ...
            2. +4
              7 February 2023 18: 39
              So the Zvezda channel is not for covering problems in the army.
        2. 0
          28 March 2023 18: 19
          Featured on Star


          And on YouTube it was shown how 52 are shot down by Stugnas while they are aiming someone there, so now they are only shooting into the white light from a cabriolet.

          Leopards neigh somewhere in the sidelines))
      6. +4
        6 February 2023 12: 28
        Because, at the moment, the issue of the participation of Ukropov armored vehicles on the front line from the side of the Aerospace Forces is not closed. Ukropov's tanks reach the LBS.
      7. +5
        6 February 2023 17: 01
        Because the author is a tanker, I think. What topic he owns, he writes about it, and quite professionally. hi
      8. +2
        6 February 2023 23: 14
        Quote from Silver99
        Why is the author obsessed with ground-based systems for the destruction of "leopards" the time for bundles of grenades seems to have passed. They completely forgot that there is a K-52 "alligator", which is sharpened to destroy the same tanks, armed with an anti-tank missile system (ATGM) "Shturm-VU" and equipped with ATGM 9M120-1 "Ataka" with a laser homing head, unguided aircraft missiles of the class “air-to-ground” caliber up to 240 mm, it has long been clear to everyone that if a tank has at least some of the most powerful frontal armor, the upper part is always vulnerable to the same drones, and without active dynamic protection it’s just a target in a shooting range.

        He also needs to fly up to the leopard. It is clear that no one will put these tanks at the forefront of the attack. Leopards will play at long distances. They have a head start here.
        1. 0
          8 February 2023 21: 26
          Leopards will play at long distances. They have a head start here

          Which? Handicap to quickly run to your own (if someone survived in the tank) after the arrival of 3BM42 or Whirlwind?
      9. 0
        7 February 2023 11: 34
        Quote from Silver99
        They completely forgot that there is a K-52 "alligator",

        They will attack tanks from a roll-up
      10. +1
        11 February 2023 09: 02
        I doubt that Alligators and Crocodiles will be allowed to frolic for a long time. Immediately from across the sea-ocean they will drag the Indians.
    3. 0
      21 March 2023 14: 22
      Not "sholtsev", but to shoot everyone who allowed this and only chatting, and the Russians are dying!
  2. +4
    6 February 2023 04: 34
    To hit a relatively modern tank head-on is in a completely hopeless situation or in the event of a sudden collision.
    There are a lot of PTO methods since WWI.
    1. -2
      6 February 2023 11: 48
      And why don't we create new ATGMs that will hit the tank in the least protected parts, in the roof and in the engine compartment, take the American Javelin ATGM, carefully study it and create our own prototype, but much more modern and efficient, with much better performance characteristics than at Javelin.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Alf
        +2
        6 February 2023 20: 35
        Quote: sgrabik
        Why don't we create new ATGMs

        Let's take it, click a finger and tomorrow new ATGMs will appear ... They need to be designed (time), tested (time), remove all bugs (time) and saturate the army (a lot of time) ...
      3. +1
        6 February 2023 20: 36
        “Why don’t we create new ATGMs that will hit the tank in the least protected parts, in the roof and in the engine compartment”
        We have created and are already using a roof mine. Detects a tank at about 100 meters, first shoots up, and then dives at the tank. This will probably be more abruptly than a javelin.
      4. yho
        +2
        6 February 2023 23: 35
        It's easy to say. To reproduce an analogue, you need to have your own scientific and technical base.
        The Chinese could, sort of.
        1. Alf
          -3
          7 February 2023 18: 46
          Quote from Yoho
          It's easy to say. To reproduce an analogue, you need to have your own scientific and technical base.
          The Chinese could, sort of.

          In China, the ruling party acts for the good of its country ...
      5. +1
        7 February 2023 11: 25
        Stalin's children fought. Children of the present ... - no. As well as the children of other eccentrics from the so-called "elitist".
        You and others, beautiful souls, still have questions like "why not ..?" remained?
        1. 0
          12 February 2023 19: 13
          And how many children were left orphans when their parents, as enemies of the people, were shot or do you want to count rot in the camps? Well, then they rehabilitated, of course, many posthumously.
      6. 0
        9 February 2023 13: 43
        It's as easy as shelling pears ... But there are no 3rd generation anti-tank systems in the Russian Federation, which means that the industry cannot repeat this. Although, for sure, the same javelins fell into the hands of engineers decades ago.
    2. +6
      6 February 2023 12: 48
      Quote: andrewkor
      To hit a relatively modern tank head-on is in a completely hopeless situation or in the event of a sudden collision.
      I fully support this opinion. For me, considering options for how to disable a tank head-on is generally unpromising. All other options are relevant: roof, board, feed.
      If everything is clear with the roof (from the warring equipment, except that one "Terminator" has protection, the rest are naked), then the board specifically, "Leopard-2" is rather weak. Not only is the main side armor 20mm, but also part of the tank's equipment is placed on the fenders (including its 4th battery). Modern versions of the tank have a well-developed bulwark, but this is good protection against cumulative ones, and it hardly covers kinetics better than its main armor (I don’t have exact data).
    3. +1
      6 February 2023 18: 37
      Probably, in a hopeless situation, first hit the tracks, for example, from a 30 mm BMP cannon, and then into the side from a grenade launcher of a suitable caliber.
      1. Uno
        +5
        6 February 2023 21: 09
        I already imagined how you, under fire from a tank, will choose where to hit, into a caterpillar, into a side or into a tower) in a war, if you hit, then it’s already good
        1. Alf
          +3
          6 February 2023 22: 17
          Quote from Uno
          I already imagined how you, under fire from a tank, will choose where to hit, on the caterpillar, on the side or on the turret)

          Especially if the tank is moving, and not strictly in a straight line, but the distance of the shot is 500 meters... It's only Call of Duty that's possible...
  3. +33
    6 February 2023 04: 45
    "... how can we punch a German "cat" in the face?" (With)
    First of all, these are railway stations, bridges and substations, lack of fuel and "strangled" air defense, finally! Prevent most of them from appearing on the battlefield at all!
    And only in the second - these are all sorts of "fogots", "competitions" and RPGs.
    When these "cats", surrounded by strikers and supported by excellent communications and intelligence, appear on the LBS, then they will still need to get close.
    I really don’t want the disparate anti-tank defense crews that survived after the “chimeras” and “Rapier” to be on their way, later nicknamed “Farewell, Motherland!” ...
    And the heroism of a soldier - yes, he will not be followed!
    1. +21
      6 February 2023 04: 59
      First of all, these are railway stations, bridges and substations, lack of fuel and "strangled" air defense, finally! Prevent most of them from appearing on the battlefield at all!


      This is all correct, but no bridges and substations with "strangled" air defense will happen in the near future.

      I really don’t want the disparate anti-tank defense crews that survived after the “chimeras” and “Rapier” to be on their way, later nicknamed “Farewell, Motherland!” ...


      This material was written for the sole purpose of stopping believing the thoroughly edited Wikipedia and showing how you can beat the German "cat", since bridges are bridges, and ours will have to face this "zoo" face to face. And the fact that a kind of memo on the tank has already been prepared is very good. Many thanks to the authors for these illustrations. I just supplemented all this with documentation from the Swedes and the British, that the car is far from impenetrable.
      1. +14
        6 February 2023 05: 09
        What about anti-tank minefields and special anti-tank mines?
        1. +1
          7 February 2023 03: 21
          Better than a mine, there is no worse. The same, just different. It will be hard to catch them on the mines. Mines are placed on tank-dangerous directions, it is unlikely that the Germans will send their own to attack, they will PR, they will hit from afar, they will shoot on video against the background of equipment knocked out by someone, only in extreme cases, bring anti-tank weapons to range.
          1. 0
            11 February 2023 13: 36
            Naturally, you have never heard of the remote setting of minefields ... laughing
      2. The comment was deleted.
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. +3
          6 February 2023 11: 00
          If now they can get into the size of the T-64 / T72, why did you get the idea that the problem is getting into the Leopard with a size 1,5 times larger?
      3. +9
        6 February 2023 07: 38
        In addition to rails, bridges, fuel, repair battalions, ammunition depots, crew locations, mining, there are also MLRS strikes adjusted by drones. And blows to the forehead are probably a sign of poor planning. That does not exclude the value of these manuals.
      4. +5
        6 February 2023 08: 21
        "... This material was written for the sole purpose of stopping believing the thoroughly edited Wikipedia and showing how you can beat the German "cat", since bridges are bridges, and ours will have to face this "zoo" face to face. that a kind of memo on the tank has already been prepared, very well. Many thanks to the authors for these illustrations. I just supplemented all this with documentation from the Swedes and the British that the car is far from impenetrable. "(c)
        You are right, everything is correct, a soldier at the front must be armed with information too. By the way, if the FAB-500 (yes, at least a “weave”) is carefully buried on the road, then Leo will generally fly back to Germany. I understand, of course, that I'm just "shaking the air" when talking about bridges and logistics - it's more from impotence to change something there, on Olympus.
        At the front, after all, our children and even grandchildren want to babysit their children and grandchildren.
      5. Aag
        +3
        6 February 2023 19: 29
        Quote: Eduard Perov
        First of all, these are railway stations, bridges and substations, lack of fuel and "strangled" air defense, finally! Prevent most of them from appearing on the battlefield at all!


        This is all correct, but no bridges and substations with "strangled" air defense will happen in the near future.

        I really don’t want the disparate anti-tank defense crews that survived after the “chimeras” and “Rapier” to be on their way, later nicknamed “Farewell, Motherland!” ...


        This material was written for the sole purpose of stopping believing the thoroughly edited Wikipedia and showing how you can beat the German "cat", since bridges are bridges, and ours will have to face this "zoo" face to face. And the fact that a kind of memo on the tank has already been prepared is very good. Many thanks to the authors for these illustrations. I just supplemented all this with documentation from the Swedes and the British, that the car is far from impenetrable.

        Thanks, Author!
        hi
        But. As colleagues have already said in the comments, you have revealed the topic from the point of view of "armored" ones (as I understand it, by virtue of competence. I respect it.). was not. (as an example, UAVs in the context under discussion, etc.).
        Here colleagues pointed to anti-tank mines. Of course, - not always, not everywhere, but it can be effectively applied. Question: have you tried to introduce a "friend or foe" recognition system on the PTM? Is it very expensive? Agree, - indirect signs: they lay mines - they are preparing for defense; removed, - prepare for the offensive.
        Maybe lagged behind - explain, please.
        hi
        1. Alf
          +3
          6 February 2023 20: 39
          Quote: AAG
          but did they try to introduce a "friend or foe" recognition system on the PTM?

          And how to do it ? Then the defendants S-Ch will have to be put on all their armored vehicles and on trucks. And yet the S-Ch moment-system is reconfigured almost every day, but how to do this with a buried mine?
          1. Aag
            +3
            6 February 2023 21: 08
            Quote: Alf
            Quote: AAG
            but did they try to introduce a "friend or foe" recognition system on the PTM?

            And how to do it ? Then the defendants S-Ch will have to be put on all their armored vehicles and on trucks. And yet the S-Ch moment-system is reconfigured almost every day, but how to do this with a buried mine?

            I understand the problems and difficulties you have outlined. They are not unsolvable. As always, it's a question of expediency...
            By the way, IMHO, it is not necessary to install the system on trucks - the attack aircraft passed on the armor, - further, the sappers are no longer working under the fire of the enemy. Or, - the "friend or foe" block will look like a separate finished product. According to the type of pass, - placed in the unit, turned on, - drove. Yes, - stamina is not up to par, temporary ... Sometimes this will be enough.
            Otherwise, of course, you will have to supply mines with OS (feedback), control, which will increase the cost and reduce resistance to counteraction.
            But still (!), IMHO, sometimes justified.
            There is already a field for creativity: we mine the necessary perimeter with "traditional" mines, leaving the corridors closed with "smart" mines. Mining maps, recognition blocks are distributed to commanders at the hour "H" - N hours ... Damn! Again, the complexity of interaction ... (((
            hi
        2. +3
          6 February 2023 20: 51
          “The question is: did they try to introduce a friend-foe recognition system on the PTM? »
          To do this, the mine must have a built-in radio transmitter and radio receiver. Plus a system for processing the received signal. The same equipment will need to be installed on all armored vehicles. The operation of such equipment will give out any movement of our military.
          1. Aag
            +2
            6 February 2023 21: 30
            Quote: Herman 4223
            “The question is: did they try to introduce a friend-foe recognition system on the PTM? »
            To do this, the mine must have a built-in radio transmitter and radio receiver. Plus a system for processing the received signal. The same equipment will need to be installed on all armored vehicles. The operation of such equipment will give out any movement of our military.

            What you listed is clear.
            "... The operation of such equipment will give out any movement of our military ...". No wonder with closed communication channels (it seems that we are not particularly successful in saturating the tactical link), is it impossible to "play around" with the radiation power?
            Well, if not, then only remains - gouges, ditches (((.
            1. +3
              6 February 2023 22: 37
              It makes no sense to create such a system only for mines. With the help of such a system, tankers will want to identify tanks or infantry fighting vehicles of the enemy, to recognize not for 100-200 meters, but at least 3-4 km. And then the flyers will want to know where whose tanks are on the ground. Here it will be difficult to play with the power of the radio signal. There is no friend or foe system even on anti-aircraft missiles, nowhere. There is no point in thinking about anti-tank mines.
          2. +3
            6 February 2023 23: 49
            No, it's easier. No need to fence the garden with "friend or foe." On the mine is a passive radio receiver with a secure channel. According to the control signal, the mine can self-destruct, as well as temporarily or permanently go into an inactive state. The signal can be sent even from a satellite, even through a mobile network. The battery lasts for several days, then the mine either self-destructs or goes into an inactive state.
            And enemy radio intelligence will not detect any excess radio traffic. And single signals still need to be deciphered
            1. 0
              7 February 2023 05: 32
              "Battery lasts for several days,"
              But this is unlikely. Conventional batteries cannot be stored in a warehouse for several years and still be in working order. Therefore, for example, batteries in MANPADS are capsule batteries, such batteries can lie in a warehouse for decades, but they can only be used once and the operating time is about a minute.
          3. +2
            7 February 2023 00: 18
            To do this, the mine must have a built-in radio transmitter and radio receiver. Plus a system for processing the received signal. The same equipment will need to be installed on all armored vehicles. The operation of such equipment will give out any movement of our military.

            The mine does not need a transmitter. It is deactivated for time N when a low-power signal is received from the vehicle transmitter.
            The signal consists of three modules:
            1. Identification (Own)
            2. Deactivation time (interval from minutes to hours)
            3. Key for changing the identification code.
        3. +1
          7 February 2023 03: 34
          Quote: AAG
          Question: have you tried to introduce a "friend or foe" recognition system on the PTM?

          A mine war, it’s like that, not always, or rather not always strongly, even there are maps of minefields. Or rather, they are, but they are not there. They lie in a safe somewhere, or they took them with them, they forgot to leave them, in short, in a company, platoon, as a rule they are not there and always a surprise. We are shown demining by the Star of Robots, some stray things are different, remember the video of demining petals in the city by tanks. Can you imagine a sensor for hundreds of thousands of mines? Okhota 1 and Okhota 2, there is a smart mine, but it is not massively used.
      6. +1
        7 February 2023 10: 40
        Quote: Eduard Perov
        I just supplemented all this with documentation from the Swedes and the British, that the car is far from impenetrable.

        Everywhere they refer to this "declassified British" test (years of the test are different)
        1983, a de-classified survivability test was conducted that pointed out that the then in-service Leopard 2A4's protection was 350 KE, 700 CE, across a 30 degree frontal arc.
        Do you have a link to this test (full size, not a page of something incomprehensible)?
        approx. in Steel Beasts they write
        The Leopard 2 stores most of its ammo (27) in the hull and is very vulnerable during the transfer of shells from secondary storage to ready racks (15), as the turret must be turned to the right rear and the vehicle cannot observe or engage in combat.
    2. old
      +8
      6 February 2023 06: 47
      First of all, these are railway stations, bridges and substations, lack of fuel

      In the absence of railway bridges, there is nothing at all to deliver this halabud to the front line. Unless Germany also allocates tractors (so far, by the way, they are not). And even the lazy one has already written about Lukoil. And everywhere. Can't you impose sanctions on him too? It is possible from our side - for the support of the side with which we are at war. However, this is a Pandora's box when it turns out that internal sanctions will have to be imposed on half of our exporters ..
      1. +3
        6 February 2023 08: 11
        Quote: old
        And everywhere. Can't you impose sanctions on him too? It is possible from our side - for the support of the side with which we are fighting

        Sanctions policy should give an unambiguous answer, how do we feel about supporting the enemy! Bulgaria supports the Armed Forces of Ukraine, which means that sanctions are being introduced to limit the supply of Russian raw materials and the faucet has been turned off. tongue
        Today, we do not even have an unambiguous attitude towards the enemy! On the one hand, we are at war with him, but at the same time we are doing business, paying him for the transit of oil! feel
        Therefore, we have red lines, this is for a red word! wink
        1. +3
          6 February 2023 09: 39
          Because people who make political decisions about sanctions and people who trade resources with the enemy are very closely tied ... The merger of capital and power - they wrote about this 130 years ago
        2. +3
          6 February 2023 11: 45
          Quote: Eroma

          Today, we do not even have an unambiguous attitude towards the enemy! On the one hand, we are at war with him, but at the same time we are doing business, paying him for the transit of oil!

          You are right, but to be honest, I don't know what to do in this case.
          The fact is that we, for example, have contractual obligations with Hungary for the supply of gas. And this gas goes through the outskirts. So think about how to do it. Stop gas supplies to Hungary and pay huge fines for breach of contractual obligations, or continue gas supplies and receive government revenues for this. budget.
          Personally, I do not undertake to solve this issue. That's why we have a president. I do not think that he will solve this issue to the detriment of the interests of the state. After all, Gazprom is not a private shop, although not all of it belongs to Russia.
          1. +3
            6 February 2023 17: 35
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            You are right, but to be honest, I don't know what to do in this case.

            We should not think about this, but smarter people, those who really make decisions bully
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            there are contractual obligations for the supply of gas. And this gas goes through the outskirts. So think about how to do it.

            To begin with, it was necessary to pre-empt the situation and bring solutions around Ukraine! With the cash of hostilities, declare under any pretext, such as worrying about the environment in the event of the destruction of pipelines by an explosion, and stop transit! Then Hungary, I think, would have found a way to influence the Poles, or Brussels, and receive gas through the South Stream, or Poland would not have banned transit through itself, but only reduced the volume. And so we ourselves gave them the opportunity to cut off everything and remain only with a pipe through Ukraine! fool
            We have some problems with forecasting and strategy No. you’ll think about sabotage and betrayal, because before it didn’t seem like they were fools, but here the grain deal alone is worth something what
            1. -1
              6 February 2023 22: 25
              Quote: Eroma
              To begin with, it was necessary to pre-empt the situation and reduce the solutions


              For this, underwater gas pipelines were built many years ago - the idea was to supply gas directly to the Germans, so that they would be less dependent on the Americans and less succumb to foreign political pressure. It never occurred to them that they would simply be destroyed - there were no major hot conflicts in Europe for a very long time, and this has already affected the worldview.
            2. 0
              6 February 2023 22: 31
              Quote: Eroma

              To begin with, it was necessary to pre-empt the situation and bring solutions around Ukraine!

              And indeed. What a trifle, just preempt the situation.
              Yes, it's easy to be a strategist while lying on the couch.
              You know, I wouldn't risk giving advice without knowing all the ins and outs of the intricacies of the international battle, in which dozens of states are involved, each pursuing its own goals. Yes, I do not argue with the fact that our leadership somewhere in this fight loses, somewhere wins. But, you see, it doesn’t happen that someone always wins in everything. But the fight is not over yet and we do not know when and with what result it will end. The only question for you - well, if you are so smart and know what should have been done before and, most importantly, what should be done now, then why are you still not the president, or, in extreme cases, not the prime minister? Don't you understand that your post is pure criticism? Here you are proposing to turn off transit through the outskirts, and you have calculated how many pluses we will get in this case and how many minuses? But now there is another option, and here you also need to consider the pros and cons, and then compare which option is better. I believe that our leadership is doing just that. And you, with all your desire, cannot, because you do not have the initial data. hi
              1. +2
                7 February 2023 08: 07
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                why are you still not the president, or, in extreme cases, not the prime minister?

                I didn’t need it, I lived my life and was happy with it, besides, I’m not one of those who can claim any kind of power hi but at one fine moment, the familiar world cracked and life began to change rapidly. I had to pay attention to what was happening in order to try to calculate events and adapt to changes. request but the whirlwind of events raises the question not of changing the conditions of life, but of survival! belay therefore, attention naturally focuses on what and on whom my life will depend bully

                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                Your post - pure criticism? Here

                I don't give a damn about the hidden motives of decisions, I see the world as it is shown to us.
                Recent events have shown that we are not controlled by the Gods, but by people capable of making very big mistakes! negative The 300 billion dollars that was taken from us, the grain deal in which we unblocked the ports of Ukraine with zero result for ourselves, the regrouping from Kherson, all this humiliates Russia, because this is a demonstration of stupidity and weakness! I am a patriot and I perceive the humiliation of Russia as my own! am no motives will justify a gift of 300 billion and the Grain deal is a banal swindle of a sucker, in life this happens every step of the way
  4. +14
    6 February 2023 05: 19
    So we will soon find out the answer to an interesting and such a popular question among the people.

    Why do we know how to make excellent military equipment - and cannot produce a normal civilian car

    Or is there a paradox

    Or a simple explanation will be obtained. Our tanks are the same as our auto industry, and they were considered excellent only because, unlike the Lada and Zhiguli, there was no way to test and compare them with Western vehicles. They never participated in the battle against their peers, NATO tanks

    The first meeting will put everything in its place
    1. +1
      6 February 2023 05: 41
      Quote: Santa Fe
      They never participated in the battle against their peers, NATO tanks

      The first meeting will put everything in its place


      Now tanks do not attack tanks. The days of the Battle of Prokhorovka are long gone.
      1. +6
        6 February 2023 05: 45
        Now tanks do not attack tanks.

        Tanks will solve problems in one theater of operations, as part of regular armies

        So we'll see what the enemy can achieve using Abrams and Leo2 instead of the previous T-64/72/80. How effective will NATO tanks be (or no significant advantages will be noted)

        How fast to move, how much more accurate to shoot, how much earlier to detect targets

        We will see everything soon, according to the results of operations
        1. -22
          6 February 2023 07: 00
          Quote: Santa Fe
          So we'll see what the enemy can achieve using Abrams and Leo2 instead of the previous T-64/72/80.

          There will not be the comparison that you dream of ... You are missing one important detail - a regular tanker on t72/80/90 and a kakel on a koshar or abrashka, who was given a week to hold on to "boobs" and kicked out to the theater of operations. It's like with javelins - I don't read English, so it's easier to drink / break / lose. Which is a big plus for us.
          1. +22
            6 February 2023 07: 24
            and a kakel on a koshar or abrashka, who was given a week to hold on to the "boobs" and kicked out to the theater. It's like with javelins - I don't read English, so it's easier to drink / break / lose

            Your jokes are a little outdated

            Talk about the fact that the enemy is stupid, he can’t do anything but jump and weapons fall out of his hands, were popular only until the beginning of March last year
            1. -1
              6 February 2023 09: 05
              Quote: Santa Fe
              Talk about the fact that the enemy is stupid, he can’t do anything but jump and weapons fall out of his hands, were popular only until the beginning of March last year

              Come on. They are still popular today. And where our heroes get lyuley - there are either Polish divisions, in the amount of a regiment against a company, or Naibulina sold.
            2. +6
              6 February 2023 12: 06
              Quote: Santa Fe

              Talk about the fact that the enemy is stupid, he can’t do anything but jump and weapons fall out of his hands, were popular only until the beginning of March last year

              Well, let's say not for everyone, they were popular. I have always said that they are warriors no worse than ours, for we are from the same root with them. Plus, do not forget, their motivation is more obvious. Even if here, on the site, men wise with life experience go into hysterics because they were not told (?) About the ultimate goals of the NWO, then what can we say about the bulk of those mobilized. So motivation doesn't matter. And, alas, there are no political officers.
        2. +3
          6 February 2023 18: 01
          In positional battles, there will not be much difference! From art they will get even more, so the size is larger fellow a gigantic tower, where you don’t hit the bark from the roof, then the shells, then the crew will suffer from the Lancets laughing I don’t think that the crews will rely on armor and grapple in front of ATGMs, they will also carefully throw them on, but 120mm guns have no land mines! tongue there are fragmentation cumuls, so they will even be inferior to the T72 in suppressing infantry behind various shelters. wink
          And yet, the bourgeoisie has an overloaded hodovka, in harsh operating conditions, it can pretty much get it! lol
          I think their task is to block the advancing in the breakthrough and shoot our equipment, they are masters in this. All this wealth is supplied for a specific task and, moreover, with a certain role in battle. belay
          The most effective weapon to fight them is the Lancets! good perhaps Leo will fire behind the backs of all the T64s and Bradleys that make up the first line, so ATGMs and T72s simply won’t be able to hit him. Arta can be suppressed by counter-battery fire from their long-range self-propelled guns, so a kamikaze UAV is the best solution Yes
        3. +5
          6 February 2023 19: 39
          So we'll see what the enemy can achieve using Abrams and Leo2 instead of the previous T-64/72/80.

          In general, it's not just about technology. The Egyptians and Israelis clearly showed this ... And the idiocy of the Saudis is also understandable, and why Abrams are on fire with them.
          The sum of technique and correct application is what we will see. Who will be Israelis here on old tanks, and who will be Egyptians on new ones ... And what will outweigh.
          Someone smart, I remember, stormed Grozny with good tanks ...
      2. +3
        6 February 2023 06: 59
        Quote: Carat
        Now tanks do not attack tanks. The days of the Battle of Prokhorovka are long gone.

        In ambushes, tanks are often used against tanks ... there are plenty of examples in the NWO.
      3. +7
        6 February 2023 13: 42
        Quote: Carat
        Now tanks do not attack tanks. The days of the Battle of Prokhorovka are long gone.

        It was precisely at the time of Prokhorovka that the battle of tanks with tanks was a direct violation of order No. 325, according to which the main task of tanks was to destroy enemy infantry.
        And after the war, tanks gradually turned into one of the main anti-tank weapons, along with ground-based anti-tank systems and attack helicopters with anti-tank guided missiles.
        Actually, the tasks of the tank can be understood by the composition of the BC. In the last big war, the emphasis was on OFS, which accounted for 75-80% of BC. And after the war, on the contrary, they hit anti-tank - "godfathers", "crowbars" and even TUR.
    2. +1
      6 February 2023 07: 33
      Quote: Santa Fe
      Why do we know how to make excellent military equipment - and cannot produce a normal civilian car

      Or is there a paradox

      Or a simple explanation

      This paradox is simple to madness - the car had to be made a LOT and cheaply, tanks are a piece product and its cost is absolutely not important.
      Even the pace of production of tanks during the Second World War is anecdotal against the pace of the automotive industry.
      The USSR / RF has never been able and is not able to do very high quality, very quickly and very much.
      So no paradox
      1. +2
        6 February 2023 08: 05
        the car had to be made a LOT and cheaply

        As the history of dozens of auto brands shows, the production of mass and high-quality cars is possible and feasible in practice.

        We are the only paradox. Tanks are traditionally excellent, civilian cars - not too, to put it mildly
        tanks are a piece product and its cost is absolutely not important.

        T-72 - 30 pieces
        Abrams - 10 pieces

        According to the BMP the same picture

        BMP-1 and 2 - 30 thousand+ produced
        Bradley - 6000
        Marder - 2100

        The cost of development / production plays a role, as well as the mass indicators of armored vehicles that affect production volumes and the cost of operation in the troops
        1. +2
          6 February 2023 08: 38
          Quote: Santa Fe
          As the history of dozens of auto brands shows, the production of mass and high-quality cars is possible and feasible in practice.

          Quote: your1970
          The USSR / RF has never been able and is not able to do very high quality, very quickly and very much.

          Suffice it to recall the classic heater faucet, which has been running for 40 years of its release.
          Quote: Santa Fe
          T-72 - 30 pieces
          Abrams - 10 pieces
          these figures are anecdotal for any automotive industry - even a large-block screwdriver.
          Soviet AvtoVAZ spit out 1 car per minute. Well, the cost - I strongly suspect that the cost of the 72nd was somewhere around a million.
          That is why I write that the production of tanks in the background any car industry- piece.30 000 for 20 years
          1. +5
            6 February 2023 09: 14
            Soviet AvtoVAZ spit out 1 car per minute. Well, the cost - I strongly suspect that the cost of the 72nd was somewhere around a million.
            That is why I am writing that the production of tanks against the background of any automotive industry (!!!) is a piece

            Your reasoning is clear. He would make sense if there were no production anywhere in the world quality civilian vehicles

            But these high-quality mass-produced cars are being produced. In the same countries as Abrams and Leopard. And our heater tap has been leaking for 40 years

            Let me remind you that the conversation began with the mention of a paradox. Everything military and secret is of excellent quality, and everything you can touch (auto industry) is a shame. It hardly happens

            Personally, I would not be surprised if it turns out that in terms of the totality of combat qualities, the latest T-72s are at the Leopard-1A5 level. There are all prerequisites for this. Incl. similar combat weights. And production volumes - if the T-72s were able to produce in such quantities, then this was also a catch. It is too simple for a modern tank

            Leo2 and Abrams will generally seem like alien weapons
            1. -4
              6 February 2023 12: 39
              Quote: Santa Fe
              Personally, I would not be surprised if it turns out that in terms of the totality of combat qualities, the latest T-72s are at the Leopard-1A5 level. There are all prerequisites for this. Incl. similar combat weights. And production volumes - if the T-72s were able to produce in such quantities, then this was also a catch. It is too simple for a modern tank

              This has its own logic, but not so direct.

              There is a tank project, so to speak, and there is what they hung on it. Any tank, starting with the T-54/M48/Centurion, can be upgraded as it should - a battalion of such retrotanks is now fighting from the Ukrainian side. The base for modernization of the T-72 is relatively good, the initial "friability" of the design just affected. It is much more difficult to work with the T-64, which was limiting for its time, the suspension was initially at the limit.

              But what is wound on a specific car - there is just something to talk about. It is quite possible that Leo of the latest versions (with a thermal imager) and modern shells will turn out to be better than the old T-72 versions (without a thermal imager, without Mango and with Contact 1). I would not put the M60 and Leo1A5 on a par with the T-62M at all - Western vehicles can perform an order of magnitude stronger.
              And they may not perform, of course.
              1. -1
                6 February 2023 15: 01
                Quote: Negro
                Western cars can perform an order of magnitude stronger.

                After catastrophic losses in armored vehicles, both sides use tanks as self-propelled guns. Just not entering the ATGM coverage area. With this use of the MSA and the accuracy of the gun becomes the most important. The L7 is an excellent gun in terms of accuracy, from the 1A5 version of the Leopards SLA, it is still relevant today, only repairs and minimal upgrades are needed. The principle from this concept leopard 1 was created.
                1. +2
                  6 February 2023 18: 52
                  ATGMs usually outperform tank guns in range. And shooting with a canopy out of sight is not very effective and will lose to artillery. Yes, and not really used by anyone.
                  1. -3
                    6 February 2023 21: 46
                    The effective range of ATGMs of the 2nd generation is up to 1-1,5 km, further only on a stationary target, no one holds ATGMs in the first line, respectively, from a range of more than 2 km, the tank can safely work on advanced positions.
                2. -1
                  6 February 2023 23: 28
                  Quote from cold wind
                  Just not entering the ATGM coverage area. With this use of the MSA and the accuracy of the gun becomes the most important. The L7 is an excellent gun in terms of accuracy, from the 1A5 version of the Leopards SLA, it is still relevant today, only repairs and minimal upgrades are needed. The principle from this concept leopard 1 was created.

                  Leopard 1 was created in a slightly different concept: as a relatively light, mobile tank destroyer. I am also a fan of a rifled gun to support infantry, but I have not seen any proposals for dynamic protection for Leo, unlike the M60. Without dynamic protection, I would not get involved with the current infantry - if, by itself, Merkava 4 is not yet issued.
                  1. -1
                    6 February 2023 23: 48
                    I'm not sure that remote sensing will help, of course you can hang it with contact-1. There is an additional MEXAS reservation, it could remain in the warehouses. Better contact-1 it should be, increasing stability not only against cumulative but also kinetics and fragments.
                    1. -1
                      7 February 2023 08: 36
                      Quote from cold wind
                      I'm not sure that remote sensing will help, of course you can hang it with contact-1. There is an additional MEXAS booking, it could remain in warehouses

                      DZ has shown its effectiveness against infantry weapons. So for battles with infantry, it is actually mandatory.

                      So Leo1, even relatively fresh ones, for example Italian ones, should be improved. And then it is not clear why they are better than the modified T-72. In my opinion it is worse from an operational point of view.
        2. +5
          6 February 2023 10: 22
          We are the only paradox. Tanks are traditionally excellent, civilian cars - not too, to put it mildly

          Depending on what parameters to judge. In terms of ergonomics, our tanks are not a fountain, like cars. In terms of reliability and maintainability, both cars and tanks are at a good level.
          1. 0
            6 February 2023 10: 48
            depending on what parameters to judge.

            Among the key, offhand -

            Combat weight - directly correlates with security
            The quality of aiming means - in day and night conditions
            Projectile length limitation (mango BOPS core length - 600 mm, Western bops - 750-800)
            ...
            Ergonomics .. probably in the First World War it was scary to get into a tank, everything is the same for modern MBTs
            In terms of reliability and maintainability, that a car

            The tank is being repaired not for its own, but for state funds
            You don't need to save and run around disassemblies, look for spare parts
            you can bring the tank as many times as you like and leave it "at the dealer" and this removes the problem itself from the agenda
            1. +1
              6 February 2023 20: 15
              "Combat weight - directly correlates with security"
              It also correlates with the dimensions of the cars. For example, KamAZ is heavier than a gazelle, does this mean that it is better armored?
            2. +1
              9 February 2023 10: 25
              Combat weight does not directly correlate with security, but indirectly. The size of the vehicle and, accordingly, its reserved volume, the mass of the actual armor. We have less armor volume, the tank itself is smaller, with the same armor protection, our tanks are smaller.
              The quality of the sights, it's hard to say for sure. We can say that Western tanks have higher quality electronics, respectively, and better sights.
              Yes, our shells are shorter, in the T-90, by the way, the length of the shell is already 900, but even if the shell does not penetrate the tank’s forehead, the tank goes into repair, it’s good if it’s under its own power.
              Ergonomics, it's not scary to climb, but the ability to work for a long time in cramped conditions without loss of efficiency. We are worse with this, because there is less reserved volume.
              Maintainability is the ability to change the engine on a tank in the field in 4 hours, without having to take it a thousand kilometers to the factory. Accordingly, the tank spends more time in combat conditions, the dealer costs less for maintenance, its efficiency is higher. I even remembered the marine term " KOH ", coefficient of operational tension.
      2. +9
        6 February 2023 09: 44
        If the USSR did not know how to produce a lot, then how did the T34 become the most massive tank for the war? And some very high-quality German TIGER is not even close in terms of the number of issued
        1. +1
          6 February 2023 10: 15
          And some very high-quality German TIGER is not even close in terms of the number of issued

          But why compare a heavy tank for the elite units of the Wehrmacht and the SS, with the most massive model of the Soviet tank

          The number of armored vehicles the Germans had more than ours
        2. -1
          6 February 2023 12: 46
          Quote: Mikhail Krivopalov
          If the USSR did not know how to produce a lot, then how did the T34 become the most massive tank for the war?

          Hmm, were you interested in the volume of BTT production in WWII?
      3. +8
        6 February 2023 10: 18
        The USSR / RF has never been able and is not able to do very high quality, very quickly and very much

        The USSR knew how to do a lot, and produced a lot. If we talk about weapons, then by the end of the war the cost of each type of weapon decreased significantly, and the quality improved. How many weapons were made, so many were not produced anywhere. What is small arms, what is technology.
        In Russia, of course, this is more difficult, you can’t argue.
      4. 0
        7 February 2023 10: 40
        Quote: your1970
        This paradox is simple to madness - the car had to be made a LOT and cheaply, tanks are a piece product and its cost is absolutely not important.

        The unborn simplified T-64 and the originally secondary T-72 look at your statement with bewilderment. smile
    3. -11
      6 February 2023 10: 23
      Quote: Santa Fe
      Why do we know how to make excellent military equipment

      This thesis referred to the technique of the 40-60s. By the end of the USSR, military equipment began to yield head and shoulders to Western ones.
      MiG-29 and Su-27 (with descendants) has 0 air victories over 4 generations of Western countries. They only killed each other.
      T-64/72/80/90 did not show themselves well anywhere. Everywhere they burn them in packs. What is in Chechnya, what is in Syria, what is in Ukraine. The losses are catastrophic. For the lost 1 Abrams / Leopard / Challenger, hundreds if not a thousand lost T-64/72/80/90.
      The USSR failed in the technical revolution of the mid-20th century, the transition to a post-industrial society and ceased to exist.
      Now the technical situation is even worse.
      1. +8
        6 February 2023 12: 34
        MiG-29 and Su-27 (with descendants) has 0 air victories over 4 generations of Western countries. They only killed each other.

        what a stupid example of the statement made above.
        T-64/72/80/90 did not show themselves well anywhere. Everywhere they burn them in packs. What is in Chechnya, what is in Syria, what is in Ukraine. The losses are catastrophic.

        Well, you're lying here, frankly. First, about Chechnya. There were two problems in Chechnya. The first is a tactic: shove you into Abrams and send you in a parade column to the center of Grozny, and you would also turn into ashes along with your Abrams. The same will happen with Abrams as part of a column in the mountains - he will burn, he will not go anywhere. The second is equipment: unfortunately, sending tanks without DZ into battle in 1995 was commonplace, hence the losses. Is this a design issue? In the book "Tanks in the battles for
        Grozny" it is written that an equipped and competently used tank on the battlefield withstood repeated hits by RPG and ATGM grenades.
        For the lost 1 Abrams / Leopard / Challenger, hundreds if not a thousand lost T-64/72/80/90

        come on, balabol, a link to the statistics of the destroyed 31 destroyed T-000s.
      2. +9
        6 February 2023 13: 53
        Quote from cold wind
        T-64/72/80/90 did not show themselves well anywhere. Everywhere they burn them in packs. What is in Chechnya, what is in Syria, what is in Ukraine.

        Ahem ... actually, according to the experience of the Second Chechen, a technically sound T-72, equipped with an equipped DZ, turned out to be an extremely tenacious machine.
        At the beginning of January 2000, during the fighting to liberate the city of Grozny, 1 tr of the battalion was assigned as service forces to assault detachments of motorized riflemen of the 506th Guards. msp. In two days of fighting in the area of ​​the railway depot, the tank with side No. 611 was hit three times by the Fagot ATGM and six times by RPG-7 grenades.
        The hits occurred in the following parts of the tank.
        ATGM - to the left under the tower (all):
        - two - in the fuel tanks on the fenders under the tower, which during the fighting tankers always kept "dry". The tanks swelled and exploded, then the elements of the mounted explosive reactive armor on the tower worked, there was no armor penetration;
        -one - on board under the tower; it is reflected by the activated element of the mounted dynamic protection mounted on rubber-metal side screens.
        Grenades from RPG-7:
        -one - on top of the commander's hatch of the tower; a cumulative jet pierced the hatch and, without hitting the tank commander, went into the aft wall of the tower;
        -two - to the left in the upper frontal part of the tower; neutralized by triggered elements of mounted dynamic protection;
        -Three - on board the hull, 2 on the left and 1 on the right; all are reflected by dynamic protection elements mounted on rubber-metal side screens.
        As a result, not a single hit led to the loss of combat capability of the tank.

        The survivability of the equipment even made it possible to compensate for the tactical mistakes of the crews:
        After successfully completing the task and after receiving a radio command to retreat, tank 623, which had previously rushed forward, began to retreat, not reversing, but turning around. Thus, he put his stern under fire from the enemy.
        Over the next short period of time, the car received 3 hits of anti-tank grenades from RPG-7:
        -first - into a metal barrel at the stern for additional fuel (in a combat situation on tanks, these barrels were always "dry"). The cumulative jet pierced the barrel through and through, but could not pierce the body of the tank.
        -second - on board the hull; It was neutralized by elements of mounted dynamic protection mounted on rubber-metal screens;
        -the third - in the lower part of the stern sheet, while the firing militant was "cut off" by a burst from a tank machine gun; the cumulative jet, having pierced the stern sheet, also pierced the lower part of the engine crankcase and "stalled" at the partition in the fighting compartment.
        Nevertheless, the tank under its own power with a broken engine crankcase (!), Walked another 300 m at high speed and took refuge on a neighboring street in the location of federal units. There the crew left the car and quickly left it. Tankers reported that oil-fuel fog had begun to accumulate inside the tank and that a fire and explosion could occur. Soon the engine stalled. But nothing caught fire and did not explode. During the day, the engine was replaced, the inlet from the cumulative grenade was brewed, and the tank again went into operation.
        1. +2
          6 February 2023 14: 30
          Every war speaks about the fact that the crews are not the same, the configuration of the problem, etc., etc. This means that it is extremely difficult to train crews well and fully equip them with these tanks. Losses on both sides on this "SVO" have already amounted to more than 2 (two thousand) pieces of T-000/64/72/80 on both sides. This is 90 times more than tanks in the service of the US Army.
          There the Turks lost their Leopards, analyzed the situation and stopped losing them. In this case, you can speak for tactics, and when every time the same thing is such a system
          1. Alf
            +1
            6 February 2023 20: 55
            Quote from cold wind
            more than 2 (two thousand) pieces of T-000/64/72/80 on both sides. This is 90 times more than tanks in the service of the US Army.

            In fact, the US Army has 6600 tanks and this is the minimum.
            1. -3
              6 February 2023 21: 48
              The US Army has 16 brigades of 87 Abrams each, which is 1392 tanks. Everything else is in training books and 4000+ in warehouses.
          2. -4
            7 February 2023 05: 24
            Losses on both sides on this "SVO" have already amounted to more than 2 (two thousand) pieces of T-000/64/72/80 on both sides. This is 90 times more than tanks in the service of the US Army.

            so you've already changed? Earlier I wrote that for 1 downed Abrams there are 1000 downed Russian tanks. Above, I gave you an example of 31 tanks that I counted in the battles for Iraq. Where is the data on 31 beaten tanks in Chechnya, Syria and Ukraine? Come on, don't get lost. And I have not yet calculated the Abrams of the Iranian army, lined with ISIS, Leopards, lined with Kurds, etc.
            1. -1
              7 February 2023 08: 55
              If you want, count Tshki lost in Syria, Iraq, Karabakh, all wars on the territory of the former USSR and Yugoslavia, all conflicts in Africa, the loss of India. And do not misinterpret my words, although this is familiar to you, I hope the meaning of the word "everywhere" is clear to you? And he didn’t talk about thousands:
              For the lost 1 Abrams / Leopard / Challenger, hundreds if not a thousand lost T-64/72/80/90.

              And so if it is interesting to get to the bottom of the words, go stand at the entrance. It is absolutely not interesting to me. That's all with you.
              1. -1
                7 February 2023 09: 59
                And he didn’t talk about thousands:

                So you didn't write it?
                cold wind
                Yesterday, 10: 23
                For the lost 1 Abrams / Leopard / Challenger, hundreds if not a thousand lost T-64/72/80/90

                Are you two on one account playing up?
                count Tshki lost in Syria, Iraq, Karabakh, all wars on the territory of the former USSR and Yugoslavia, all conflicts in Africa, losses of India

                Well, then it won't be difficult for you to show the statistics, esperd. Come on, I offered you to confirm more than 30 thousand lost Soviet-Russian tanks. Or do you not know how to answer for your words?
                And so if it is interesting to get to the bottom of the words, go stand at the entrance.

                amazing! I'm also to blame for the fact that you lied and now, instead of admitting you were wrong, you are trying to quietly crawl away from the answer belay
          3. +1
            7 February 2023 10: 37
            Quote from cold wind
            Every war talks about the fact that the crews are not the same, the configuration of the problem, etc., etc. This means that it is extremely difficult to train crews well and fully equip them with these tanks.

            This only says that if, instead of combat training, commanders are imprisoned for writing many plans and reports, then this will not end in anything good. As well as savings on combat training, the results of which were clearly shown by the ceremonial firing by TURs in 2020.
      3. +3
        6 February 2023 18: 46
        “Mig-29 and Su-27 (with descendants) has 0 air victories over 4 generations of Western countries. »
        MiG-29s in Iraq were able to fill up the B-52 and one tornado. In conditions when the air forces of Western countries had an order of magnitude air superiority! Not to mention the organization of management and much more. And the MiG-25 filled up the Hornet. In Yugoslavia, MiGs were inferior to the air forces of Western countries by several orders of magnitude.
        1. -4
          6 February 2023 21: 51
          B-52 packs (17 pieces) were shot down in Vietnam, under more difficult conditions. With simpler ones, 1 is probably shot down, without confirmation of this, well, well.
          MiG-29 and Su-27 (with descendants) has 0 air victories over 4 generations of Western countries

          But how does this list of yours refute my assertion?
      4. Alf
        -1
        6 February 2023 20: 49
        Quote from cold wind
        For the lost 1 Abrams / Leopard / Challenger, hundreds if not a thousand lost T-64/72/80/90.

        Millions ... Especially when you consider that they did not encounter in battles ...
        1. yho
          0
          6 February 2023 23: 54
          Well, why, faced in Iraq.
          1. Alf
            0
            7 February 2023 18: 49
            Quote from Yoho
            Well, why, faced in Iraq.

            T-64? T-80? T-90?
      5. -1
        7 February 2023 00: 00
        You don't know much. MiG-29 and Su-27 are also in service with many countries. Some facts: most recently, Indian Su-30s shot down Pakistani F-16s. In the Arab-Israeli war of 1982, early T-72s hit quite a few Merkavas. In the Iraqi wars, there were many T-72 victories over the Abrams.
        Unfortunately, domestically produced equipment fought with each other much more often, as in the Ethiopian wars, wars in the Middle East and the current NWO. But it is absolutely wrong, one hundred domestic equipment is worse than Western! Absolutely false! At least by the criterion that "they", for all their advancement, a tank gun is still loaded by a person
        1. -1
          7 February 2023 00: 28
          Quote: futurohunter
          You do not know much.

          Well surprise!
          Quote: futurohunter
          Su-30 shot down by Pakistani F-16s

          All mixed up laughing . Firstly, the MiG-21 shot down the F-16 according to the Hindus, and secondly, the F-16 shot down the Su-30 according to Pakistan. So even in these two fakes everything is mixed up laughing In reality, the MiG-21 was shot down.
          Quote: futurohunter
          In the Arab-Israeli war of 1982, early T-72s hit quite a few Merkavas. In the Iraqi wars, there were many T-72 victories over the Abrams.

          A lot is about 0. Well, under the Indian-Pakistani foolishness, maybe something was dreamed wink

          Congratulations, you were surprised, you still need to manage to write so many fakes in one post! wink
    4. +11
      6 February 2023 14: 43
      The first meeting will put everything in its place
      Exactly .. It would be good not to bring this meeting at all and solve the issues of the special operation more quickly, but we have what we have. There will be a meeting, then everything will be visible.
    5. Alf
      +3
      6 February 2023 20: 44
      Quote: Santa Fe
      and they were considered excellent only because, unlike the Lada and Zhiguli, there was no way to test and compare them with Western technology.

      Israeli wars, however, for a long time.
      The Iraqi war, however, is a long time ago.
      Quote: Santa Fe
      They never participated in the battle against their peers, NATO tanks

      And thank God that looking at them, NATO tanks did not dare to come uninvited!
      1. -2
        6 February 2023 23: 14
        Quote: Alf
        Israeli wars, however, for a long time.
        The Iraqi war, however, is a long time ago.

        It's not easy there.
        Quote: Alf
        And thank God that looking at them, NATO tanks did not dare to come uninvited!

        Why do they need it?
    6. 0
      9 February 2023 15: 05
      Truly so! And it’s also easier to steal on military contracts, I classified the data and no one will check anything. There is no admission, walk the prosecutor.
  5. +7
    6 February 2023 05: 27
    The modification of the A4, of course, is not very "pleasant", but not as dangerous as the A6, whose company will be supplied by the FRG, here's how to hit it "in the faces", that's the question. To which our guys already need to look for an answer and prepare now
    1. Eug
      0
      6 February 2023 08: 25
      Interestingly, it seems that the RF Armed Forces took a lot of "roof-fighters" of the N-LAW type "prisoner", if so, they should be used (if by the time the "cats" attack, the motorized riflemen will be able to provide organized resistance). On the battlefield, there will be no time to determine which modification is rushing, so in any case you need to use everything possible ... as for me - most likely they will be hit from the air, but for this you need to deal with air defense, and this is with space support is very difficult.
    2. +4
      6 February 2023 12: 55
      Our modern wearable (Kornet), self-propelled (Chrysanthemum) and aviation (Whirlwind) ATGMs take any MBT head-on. Another question is how many of them are on the LBS (compared to the older ones).
  6. -4
    6 February 2023 06: 13
    It seems that the world is engaged in mass disarmament. On the fields of Ukraine, old military equipment is being disposed of: Soviet and foreign. smile
    1. +11
      6 February 2023 06: 20
      if so, on the contrary, the world is militarizing, military budgets, after 25 years of decline at the end of the Cold War, are growing by leaps and bounds! the production of weapons in the near future will grow significantly in the West, and in China too ... a solid profit for Western capitalists from their own, they simply have to thank someone - the situation resembles a way out of the Great Depression in the United States, the overproduction crisis has been defeated thanks to military orders and cheap resources Russian Federation ... the economies of the West, China and India will show growth, despite the promises of a recession ... and again the "dolce vita" at the expense of Russia !!!
    2. +7
      6 February 2023 10: 01
      on the contrary, the flywheel of the arms race is spinning in NATO, military orders have gone
  7. +5
    6 February 2023 06: 28
    Author, have a little bit of patience and you will write an article called "Leopard 2A4 for Ukraine: how did we hit the German" cat " in the face.
  8. +7
    6 February 2023 06: 54
    Production vehicles from 1988 to 1992 already had more advanced C armor with increased durability. No other booking in the Leopard-2A4 was provided for either in export copies or for the internal needs of the German Ministry of Defense.

    a sharp increase in armor on 2A5, when no threat from the USSR was already foreseen, in my opinion shows the previously underestimated power of the old T-64-72-80 shells, the Germans made a reassessment after mass testing of the GDR arsenals.
  9. +5
    6 February 2023 08: 07
    After reading this article, it seems that the Mango T-72B does not pierce each other in the forehead from 2 thousand meters. Come on?

    Regarding the "reliability" of German technology. If cars are considered "old" - the same age as the T-72B and T-80U, then what to think about the T-64BV, T-80BV, T-72B, which, not without the help of such and such a mother, but still not only drive, but do they fight? About the Challenger-1, which, to my surprise, almost all were sold to Jordan and are now considered a pile of scrap there even compared to the M60, I am already silent.

    The minimum training period for tankers in peacetime on Leo was named three months. Now, by a strong-willed decision, the Poles have reduced it to 6 weeks. It seems that the Germans and Americans seriously thought in the 80s that if there was a war in Europe, they would not need to train new tankers in 3 weeks, or 6, or 3 months. How to make new tanks. Everything ends early.
    1. 0
      6 February 2023 08: 45
      Quote: Dimax-Nemo
      It seems that the Germans and Americans seriously thought in the 80s that if there was a war in Europe, they would not need to train new tankers in 3 weeks, or 6, or 3 months. How to make new tanks. Everything ends early.

      Do you think they rushed out of peacefulness to sign the treaty??
      Even if the tank factories had not flown in, there would still be no one to work on them. Cities in Europe sit too tightly to each other
    2. 0
      6 February 2023 08: 58
      Quote: Dimax-Nemo
      How to make new tanks. Everything ends early.

      There were different scenarios, including a protracted one. But as the events of the early 90s showed, those who have old bad ones need new tankers. The result of the clash between the HRO army and the Desert Storm army was a bit predictable.
  10. Eug
    +2
    6 February 2023 08: 17
    ATGM is a rather cumbersome type of weapon, I would be much more interested in such data as the number (it is clear that it is approximate and highly dependent on the points of impact) of RPG-7, SPG-9 shots. Although - if in reality the Cats, Abrashi and Daring (?, a very free translation) go in the 3rd wave, then it is unlikely that organized resistance will be from the ground, rather only from the sky ...
    1. -1
      6 February 2023 09: 01
      Quote: Eug
      shots RPG-7, SPG-9

      Who will say? Depends on the harness. The same Turks, on the basis of the experience of Syria, blinded a DZ body kit on their knees. Ukrainians will stop percent with contact 1, they will stick around at least. If, in addition, well-made gratings appear, then the result can be more than decent.
    2. 0
      7 February 2023 17: 13
      If cats and abrams go in the 3rd wave, then who will go in the first two?
  11. +1
    6 February 2023 08: 42
    A normal tank that meets the requirements of this war ... if it fought on our side, but for Ukraine this is another prodigy that will burn out quickly, if it reaches the front at all.
  12. +3
    6 February 2023 08: 55
    Quote: Santa Fe
    Or a simple explanation will be obtained. Our tanks are the same as our auto industry, and they were considered excellent only because, unlike the Lada and Zhiguli, there was no way to test and compare them with Western vehicles. They never participated in the battle against their peers, NATO tanks


    What nonsense. We met more than once. Starting from Korea. Vietnam, Arab-Israeli wars, Iraqi-Iranian war, conflicts in Africa.
    It was precisely American (and other Western tanks) that more often fought against Soviet tanks of the previous generation.
    1. +1
      6 February 2023 13: 03
      In all these wars, Western tanks were, so to speak, in concept after the military tank. At some point, they moved on to the concept of a tank with a weight of 50+ tons. And these cars did not collide with peers from our side.
      1. -1
        6 February 2023 14: 22
        Quote from: blackGRAIL
        And these cars did not collide with peers from our side.

        It means that you do not like the results of these clashes (performed by the Americans).
  13. 0
    6 February 2023 08: 58
    Quote: parusnik
    It seems that the world is engaged in mass disarmament. On the fields of Ukraine, old military equipment is being disposed of: Soviet and foreign.


    Why only old? There is also a new one. SAMs, Jewels, etc.
    Well, it was said that one of the goals is demilitarization. Not only Ukraine...
  14. +3
    6 February 2023 09: 05
    Quote: Santa Fe
    Why do we know how to make excellent military equipment - and cannot produce a normal civilian car


    What does "normal" mean?
    Cars were produced as they were in demand. Given the low purchasing power of Soviet citizens, as well as the quality of domestic roads. In general - what you need. VAZ "classic" has long been in demand in the secondary market, especially in the provinces.
    Do you know a lot of simple, inexpensive, maintainable Western cars that would cost as much as domestic "frets" (in terms of the exchange rate)? Those. no more than 5000 bucks. Try to find something decent (not Chinese or Indian).
    And only a clinical idiot can compare Mercedes and Ladas, since you can only compare goods of the same price category, focused on one consumer niche.
    1. +2
      6 February 2023 10: 28
      What does "normal" mean?
      Cars were produced as they were in demand. Given the low purchasing power of Soviet citizens

      Each Soviet car at the beginning of its history was modern, but was delayed in production for an inadequately long time.

      It was all about the present day.
      Do you know a lot of simple, inexpensive, maintainable Western cars that would cost as much as domestic "frets" (in terms of the exchange rate)? Those. no more than 5000 bucks.

      A new car in the 21st century can't cost 5000 bucks. Lada is a shame that the population is still forced to ride this, and the primitiveness of the frets is presented as an advantage

      Any, how many factories were in demand, screwdriver assembly of foreign cars. Now a used CR-V or CX-5 Mazda with hands will be torn off
      only a clinical idiot can compare "Mercedes" and "Ladas", since only goods of the same price category can be compared

      Now Leo2 will arrive and there will be exactly this situation
      1. 0
        7 February 2023 00: 36
        Quote: Santa Fe
        Each Soviet car at the beginning of its history was modern, but was delayed in production for an inadequately long time.


        It directly depends on the economic history of countries and the world.
        When there are problems in the economy, they use auto-ersatz.
        Europeans generally started with sidecars, microcars, and motorcycles (and even micromotorcycles) were much more common earlier. In Asia, Africa, motorcycles and scooters are used because of the economy and supported by a warm climate.
        The USSR lived in the position of the besieged throughout history - a citizen, WWII, cold and local proxy wars, Afghan, then the collapse of the state and the beginning of conflicts right on its territory: in such conditions, motorcycles were in demand for a long time and even they were almost never removed from the conveyors, not only auto - to spend money on tanks, missiles, planes - the whole history was more important; again - cheap fuel did not contribute to the progress of engine building. In the United States, and among Latin Americans, there has never been a flourishing of very cheap ersatz microcars and only the fuel crisis crippled their auto industry.

        https://youtu.be/qs4xVi9I5m0
  15. -2
    6 February 2023 09: 15
    Quote: Vladimir80
    if so, on the contrary, the world is militarizing, military budgets, after 25 years of decline at the end of the Cold War, are growing by leaps and bounds! the production of weapons in the near future will grow significantly in the West, and in China


    Nichrome will not grow. In the West - for sure, in China - maybe.

    The bourgeois industry is in private hands. Manufacturers have a golden rule: the use of fixed assets (machines, equipment, etc.) should not be less than 70% of the maximum capacity. It was the USSR with a planned economy that could contain huge reserves of industrial capacity, it was in the USSR that plants and factories could work in one shift. This will not work for the bourgeoisie, the one who uses the fixed capital so irrationally runs the risk of merging it with his competitors. Therefore, the reserves for increasing the output of such products are small. The maximum is 1.5 times. And Zalezhnaya "amortizes" Western weapons and equipment simply at an accelerated pace.
    To increase the production of weapons and ammunition more significantly, it will be necessary to build new plants and factories. This will take years. And it’s not a fact that private traders will willingly subscribe to this, given that everything has risen in price: building materials, energy, raw materials, logistics, etc.

    So all this is the crested hamsters' wishlist-dreamers.
  16. +5
    6 February 2023 09: 41
    In general, judging by open data, in the forehead "Leopard-2A4" with type B armor holds sub-caliber shells with a penetration of 350-400 mm and cumulative ones with a penetration of up to 600-700 mm


    I decided to look at these open data

    The protection is concentrated in the turret, which on the 2A4 is equivalent to 590-690 millimeters of Rolled Homogenosu Armor (RHA) versus kinetic sabots, and 810-1290 millimeters RHA versus HEAT munitions.

    Starting with the 2A5 model, an added wedge of sloped, spaced armor measuring 1.5-meters long boosts turret protection to 850-930mm RHA versus kinetic shells and 980-1730mm versus HEAT munitions.


    something strongly differs from the author's data

    In general, judging by open data, the Leopard-2A4 with type B armor holds sub-caliber shells with a penetration of 350-400 mm and cumulative shells with a penetration of up to 600-700 mm in the forehead. This is not even the level of late Soviet tanks, such as the T-72B and T-80U, which provided a greater level of protection without dynamic protection due to passive armor alone.


    In T-64A and T-64B tanks, the frontal armor thickness of the turret is maximum 485 - 496 mm (source: http://btvt.narod.ru/raznoe/bulat-leo2.files/image011.jpg) this is less than armor 660 mm thick .
    In T-80B, frontal armor thickness is between 560 and 640 mm (for 30 degrees 530 mm)
    In the case of the T-80 tank, the turret armor thickness is mainly 600 mm (source: http://btvt.narod.ru/raznoe/bulat-leo2.files/image011.jpg http://btvt.narod.ru/4 /bars_leopard/80-1.jpg)
    Which is again less.

    The frontal armor of the T-72B ranges from 600 to 750 mm, for 30 degrees it is 600 - 680 mm, which is almost equal to the thickness of 660 mm in the Leopard-2 tank.

    For this reason, the 660 mm armor unit thickness for the Leopard-2A4 tank is not a weak point compared to the 500 - 600 - 680 mm values ​​for Soviet tanks.
    https://topwar.ru/53677-ocenka-bronevoy-zaschity-tanka-leopard-2a0-a4.html

    Again, something does not agree with the author, already even with an article with VO
    Ps it smells bad...
    1. +1
      6 February 2023 11: 29
      All these numbers are relative. Questions to the testing methodology, they are different. Modern wars show that communication, SLA, situational awareness are many times more important. Any armor breaks through, the main thing is to know how and where.
    2. +2
      6 February 2023 12: 16
      I decided to look at these open data

      Your data is extremely high. Neither the British nor the Germans themselves with the Swedes gave such a level to 2a4.

      Again, something does not agree with the author, already even with an article with VO

      The thickness of the armor and the equivalent against a specific type of projectile are different things. You won’t say that the T-72b tower holds such numbers without dz, for example, for sub-caliber shells. And even more so t-80b.
      1. +3
        6 February 2023 13: 12
        Your data is extremely high.

        Ok, please, a detailed article on VO for year 14 in which the flaunting of the a4 leopard is beautifully painted
        https://topwar.ru/53677-ocenka-bronevoy-zaschity-tanka-leopard-2a0-a4.html
        The above information is the latest information about the Burlington armor. In the case of the Leopard-2A4 tank, we can assume or evaluate armor protection.

        There are several methods for assessing armor protection, and most of them give similar results in two groups of options (worst and best); the average between both variants gives the following results:

        For the tower:
        thickness 860-760-620 mm without tilt
        (front of the tower, front of the tower for 30 degrees, sides of the tower for 30 degrees)

        against armor-piercing subcaliber (in mm rolled homogeneous armor - RHA)
        570-510-410 mm

        against cumulative HEAT (in mm RHA)
        910-810-640 mm

        housing for thickness 640 mm without tilt:
        about 500 mm against armor-piercing sabot and about 700 mm against cumulative HEAT


        Even here there is no data on 350 mm ...
    3. +2
      6 February 2023 13: 11
      Open data are very different


      The author cited data from a Swedish tender and a British estimate. They are somehow more reliable than open OBS data.
  17. 0
    6 February 2023 09: 44
    Everything will depend on the skill of the crew and the place where the tanks are used. Everyone writes about armor, but are "caterpillars" easy and quick to change? There are plenty of mines and fragments of artillery from which attachments flies at once. And the height, the t-72 looks much more profitable, it will be easier to get into a leopard from the same anti-tank systems, the comfort is certainly good (western tank building), but the main thing is the survival of the crew.
    1. +2
      6 February 2023 13: 16
      Everything will depend on the number of tanks. Even the latest versions of MBT in the amount of 50 ... 100 pieces. The front will not be sold. But 500 pieces concentrated in one direction (with comparable support for motorized infantry, artillery, air defense) will be a problem.
  18. BAI
    0
    6 February 2023 11: 13
    The Leopard's most vulnerable spot is the rembaza. Only 14 leopards from Germany come with a repair kit. The rest are bare, without a set of spare parts, i.e. disposable.
    The Americans are preparing to send the Ambrams. And to them, repair and recovery vehicles are 4 times more than the norm of the US Army
    1. 0
      7 February 2023 20: 06
      Don't worry so much about repair kits. If BT is used in battles, then it does not live long. And if necessary, "our Western partners and friends" will supply everything to our non-brothers in unlimited quantities. If they sent 14, then this is a CALCULATION that is enough for SUCH a plan of use, for SUCH a period.
  19. +2
    6 February 2023 11: 19
    Rarely at the current VO you can read about materiel, and not about geopolitics. Thanks to the author for this.

    I think it does not hurt to mention circumstances that the author missed - or considered well-known.

    From the Ukrainian side, mainly T-64BV (not BM) and T-72 from storage are participating in the events - that is, mostly naked. On the Russian side, on average, T-72B3, the car is somewhat more recent. Now we are talking about the supply of Western cars of the 90s. With a different balance of protection / weapons / electronics. In general, neatly speaking, the qualitative superiority in tanks in a certain area of ​​​​active operations will be lost.

    Maybe, of course, to hell with him, with a qualitative superiority in tanks. It didn't help much during the year. On the other hand, things were already going smoothly, but with the advent of the enemy more modern materiel ...
    1. -4
      6 February 2023 19: 02
      Let's remember the Great Patriotic War. When the Germans encountered the T-34, they forbade their tanks and small-caliber anti-tank artillery to engage in single combat with him. They carried 88 mm anti-aircraft guns and larger-caliber guns. Those. no need to climb on the rampage if there is no hope of victory. The same with the Leopard: they hit the caterpillars with a 30 mm BMP cannon and hid, added from a feasible ATGM to the side.
      1. Alf
        0
        6 February 2023 21: 00
        Quote: Alexey Lantukh
        When the Germans encountered the T-34, they forbade their tanks and small-caliber anti-tank artillery to engage in single combat with him.

        Can you source?
      2. 0
        6 February 2023 23: 08
        Quote: Alexey Lantukh
        Let's remember the Great Patriotic War.

        What for?
        Quote: Alexey Lantukh
        When the Germans encountered the T-34, they forbade their tanks and small-caliber anti-tank artillery to engage in single combat with him

        They simply did not notice them for the first four months or so. Well, no matter how they noticed, all the roads are clogged with abandoned tanks, you have to go around the field.
        Quote: Alexey Lantukh
        The same with the Leopard: they hit the caterpillars with a 30 mm BMP cannon and hid, added from a feasible ATGM to the side.

        It is very convenient to plan a fight based on the fact that you have a tactical advantage. Continue in the same spirit.
  20. +1
    6 February 2023 11: 31
    If it weren’t for problems with the light auto industry, then I would put ATGMs on every pickup truck and saturate every sector of the front where a breakthrough is possible (steppe, open spaces, etc.)

    And I would also bomb every bridge across the Dnieper that can withstand the entire Leopard. In other words, if these tanks reach the front line and engage in battle with our T-90/72/80, then this will already be a failure of our intelligence, VKS and command. It is necessary to smash every repair plant, every fuel depot, so that the Armed Forces of Ukraine do not even have the opportunity to change the oil in Leopard. Why bring to a direct clash? What kind of collective stupefaction in the upper ranks? I have no doubts about the courage and skills of our tankers, but I would rather watch boring footage of the destruction of the military infrastructure of the Armed Forces of Ukraine than epic tank duels.
    1. 0
      6 February 2023 13: 28
      Despite the fact that the USSR destroyed German logistics as much as possible, this could not prevent a direct clash anywhere. This does not mean that we should not do it. Even now, almost a year later, and despite the West's complete loss of fear of Russia, it is possible to shake things up and start striking at logistics.

      Moreover, outside the territory of Ukraine. At the very beginning of the NWO, the West was really afraid to send weapons to Ukraine. Russia's strike on logistics hubs in Poland was the most logical and expected response. He was expected. And as Comrade Putin rightly said, if the English destroyer Defender had been sunk, this would not have led to a third world war. In the West, they understood that they asked for it.

      And if the bear suddenly wakes up unexpectedly, then the West's jaw will fall off for the second time (the first is when we started drawing red lines instead of a blow).
      1. +1
        6 February 2023 16: 14
        I will paraphrase: the APU will have Western equipment, a feature of which is a greater (compared to Soviet technology) need for maintenance. Therefore, for the successful use of Western technology, the Armed Forces of Ukraine will have to deploy repair bases and an extensive logistics network. Wouldn't it be wiser to destroy them than to allow direct clashes?

        As far as I understand, this is how the Armed Forces of Ukraine achieved success in the Kharkiv and Kherson directions, systematically destroying fuel depots, equipment and ammo depots. Is it time to get smarter? "Infantry wins battles, logistics wins wars"

        PS I have been hearing about red lines for a long time, it has already become a meme among the military.
    2. -1
      6 February 2023 19: 05
      In fact, you can mobilize all the cool Mercedes all-terrain vehicles by turning them into pickups and installing anti-tank systems on them
    3. 0
      7 February 2023 00: 12
      mildsar
      You offer jihad mobiles. At the front, "on the other side", there are already similar bander-mobiles. Something they didn’t particularly show themselves ... And how many of them were burned ...
      1. 0
        7 February 2023 13: 26
        Not really, I'm not suggesting jihadmobiles. I propose to saturate with mobile ATGM crews those areas where mobile warfare is possible with "light cavalry". Shot, hit and ran. the so-called technicals are not a universal tool, but they can show themselves in the steppe area.
  21. +4
    6 February 2023 12: 49
    Interestingly, but no one thought about the ammunition that hits the tank without breaking through the armor? A remote detonation of a projectile / missile on approach to the tank and a stream of high-speed fragments strips off all optics / lasers / radars, etc., and also hits the gun barrel. The result is a blind useless armored box ...
    1. +3
      6 February 2023 13: 12
      Sounds like a cannon spark 2A42 on the BMPT Terminator :)
    2. 0
      7 February 2023 00: 16
      Dmitriy22
      Stupid ... You can get into the barrel of a gun either by accident or with a very close shot, and only across the barrel. In general, tank equipment is designed with the ability to withstand flying fragments ...
      It can only be obtained with close fire from small-caliber automatic guns of 20-30 mm caliber
  22. +3
    6 February 2023 13: 41
    "Leopard 2A4 for Ukraine: how can we punch the German "cat" in the face" - there are enough funds. But there is one thing, the times of the Second World War, the liquid "KS". And against the "Leopards" and against the "Abrams" - the liquid will find a gap! negative negative negative But the thing is different: it all started with the supply of helmets and bulletproof vests .... Now it’s tanks ... And then what? stop
    1. -3
      6 February 2023 19: 07
      We will continue to use tactical nuclear weapons.
    2. Alf
      0
      6 February 2023 21: 02
      Quote: senima56
      And then what?

      F-16. Already on the way...
  23. +4
    6 February 2023 13: 52
    2A4 is something between the t-62m and t-72b3m.
    The T-62m is approximately also armored, has a slightly weaker gun, but better optics (the Germans have something decent with a5, but really modern with a6, before that the French were not in NATO and there are no French matrices there).
    The T-72b3m has a comparable cannon, which is better against fortifications, but even modern crowbars are no worse than those that are standard for 2A4. Better armored, better optics.
    1. 0
      6 February 2023 14: 10
      Quote: Georgy Sviridov_2
      T-62m is also approximately armored

      )))
      Oh well.

      In reality, the T-62 was created on an emergency basis in order to somehow respond to the Centurion with L7 and M60. Accordingly, its counterpart is Leopard 1.
      Quote: Georgy Sviridov_2
      even modern crowbars there are no worse than those that are regular for 2A4. Better armored, better optics.

      )))
  24. +5
    6 February 2023 15: 40
    And where is our Hermes complex, which we have been dragging around exhibitions and have been developing for a quarter of a century?! Is it still not ready?
    1. +5
      6 February 2023 16: 42
      And where is our complex "Hermes"
      at the forum "Army-2020" probably
  25. ata
    +1
    6 February 2023 17: 57
    The tank itself must be integrated into the overall picture of the fighting.
    Including at the level of information exchange with other participants.

    If it comes in an advanced version and if it is well integrated into the Armed Forces of Ukraine and into the Western intelligence support system, then perhaps the biggest difference with modern Russian tanks is this screen.



    The big screen in the center of the photo from the Leopard 2 A7 tank is not only off-road GPS.
    It also displays all available information coming from the battlefield to the tank commander.

    Sources of information may include:
    Other tanks
    Infantry
    UAVs
    Awacs
    Satellites
    And even data provided by friendly civilians.
    This can significantly affect how the tank commander evaluates information and makes decisions.

    I don't know how effective electronic warfare methods are on the battlefield. If effective, the solution may lie in jamming his communications and electronics. If not, then you need to develop and improve your own systems for integrating the tank into the overall weapon system, but this is a systemic issue. To do this, it is necessary that information be promptly received by the tank and from the tank to other participants in the war.


    Another solution is the electromagnetic pulse of a nuclear explosion - a nuclear explosion disables electronics within a radius of tens of kilometers, or other sources of a strong pulse that disables electronics. A nuclear explosion with its electromagnetic pulse can also effectively disable power lines, transformer stations, and urban infrastructure electronics. Effectively solving in this way the issues of destroying the water supply, transport, radars, production facilities, because there are electronics everywhere that will fail. Information in electronic databases is also erased and computers fail. This will negate the advantage in intelligence and communications that NATO countries are now providing to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
    In this case, tank crews may not only be on an equal footing, but tankers who are accustomed to operating on models without a large amount of electronic filling will have an advantage.

    That is, apparently you can’t be a little pregnant - you need to either create your own electronics or destroy the enemy’s, and ideally, both. So, for example, in the USSR, vacuum tubes were used instead of transistors, because they survive a nuclear strike better.
    1. -1
      7 February 2023 00: 09
      ata
      A vigorous strike will help you only if it will cause a retaliatory strike. EMP arises only from high-altitude or space explosions. Learn the materiel
  26. 0
    6 February 2023 21: 39
    It will be possible to think about tanks manufactured in 2000 when pipes and rubber goods (technical rubber products) will be replaced in these tanks. Any economic person changes them once a year. To understand the problem, look at a hose that is 20 years old. Hydraulics will tear and crack, even if reinforced with a metal mesh. Now open the engine compartment and you will understand that all seals and fuel equipment are "KAYUK". The oil seals should hold at maximum speed. Any gearbox will be “Kopets”, in a week or two. They will fail from fires in the engine compartment. Replace! It is necessary to disassemble almost everything ... And collect it. In the field .... In winter.
    1. -2
      6 February 2023 21: 55
      And now we are looking at how the equipment is being prepared before shipment. After such repair and modernization, the equipment is like new.
      1. -2
        6 February 2023 22: 55
        The tank, of course, was relevant before the advent of a jet engine and a conventional locator. They sent me a video with a mockery in the cart: Watch how I burn yours. !!! The tank drives around the city, turns the turret and shoots at it from the windows. The crew leaves the tank and is shot by snipers. Wounded tankers crawl onto the lawn and writhing die, subside. Because the government destroyed the tank school in the city. And the commanders with experience failed to tell that a tank in the city is "zero".
      2. -1
        6 February 2023 22: 59
        The tank, of course, was relevant before the advent of a jet engine and a conventional locator. They sent me a video with a mockery in the cart: Watch how I burn yours. !!! The tank drives around the city, turns the turret and shoots at it from the windows. The crew leaves the tank and is shot by snipers. Wounded tankers crawl onto the lawn and writhing die, subside. Because the government destroyed the tank school in the city. And the commanders with experience failed to tell that a tank in the city is "zero".
  27. 0
    6 February 2023 22: 37
    I wonder how the 30th RPGs like Hook and Barkas will cope with cats? They seem to be from the series: "KAZ? DZ? No, I haven't heard ... am ":)
  28. -5
    6 February 2023 23: 26
    Quote: Santa Fe
    And some very high-quality German TIGER is not even close in terms of the number of issued

    But why compare a heavy tank for the elite units of the Wehrmacht and the SS, with the most massive model of the Soviet tank

    The number of armored vehicles the Germans had more than ours

    It seems that the scoop strangled the Germans in quantity.
    1. 0
      7 February 2023 09: 19
      Quote from Canna Steinfeldgrubber
      It seems that the scoop strangled the Germans in quantity.

      Apparently, this is news to many, but the potential problem for Germany of a war on two fronts was discussed long before the advent of tank production.
  29. 0
    6 February 2023 23: 35
    Quote from ata

    So, for example, in the USSR, vacuum tubes were used instead of transistors, because they survive a nuclear strike better.

    Involuntarily he imagined some kind of Lancet on the lamps.
  30. +3
    6 February 2023 23: 41
    You can, of course, destroy at long distances with MLRS and artillery, you can on the way to the front line, but who told you that the tankers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine will go into suicidal frontal attacks, or will they go in even columns, substituting the sides?
    "From the other side" are also not fools fighting. They will hide, disguise themselves, wait in ambushes, dig into the ground and concrete in fortified areas.
    Therefore, in the battle "eye to eye" you will have to face them sooner or later. And then recommendations will be needed on where and how it is better to beat.
    Nothing prevents us from doing anti-tank ambushes and mobile groups of tank hunters.
    As well as minefields, wolf pits and other traps. In armor with the enemy, a variety of means and methods are good
  31. +3
    7 February 2023 00: 06
    Judging by everything, many commentators gathered in tanks to fight tanks. And most likely, the same Leo and their other brothers will be dispersed in parts, and will more often be used as a means of supporting the infantry. And in this role, any tank is dangerous and any tank will be valuable, even outdated.
    And therefore, it will be necessary to use any available means against tanks, everything that is at hand, and at least captured Jewelins. Therefore, such recommendations are extremely useful.
    1. +1
      7 February 2023 08: 49
      Quote: futurohunter
      Judging by everything, many commentators gathered on tanks to fight tanks

      Inertia of thinking. But yes, the tank is a universal anti-tank weapon, so this possibility should be taken into account.
      Quote: futurohunter
      most likely, the same Leo and their other brothers will be sprayed in parts

      So far, the conversation is about creating Western-type connections, completely on Western materiel. The Ukrainians call it "corps", but for now I would call it an incomplete division.
      Quote: futurohunter
      everything that is at hand, but at least captured Jewelins.

      It would be strange if the "trophy Javelins" lay idle for so long. The last months with trophies are sparse.
  32. +2
    7 February 2023 00: 30
    Of the specialized anti-tank weapons, the missiles of the Shturm, Khrizantema-S, Konkurs-M complexes, as well as the Metis-M and Kornet anti-tank systems will show good effectiveness against the Leopard-2A4 armor.

    In fact, almost any Russian tandem will fit. The given protection of this tank (as well as many others) from the CBC refers to the monoblock CBC. Russian tandems have a very "powerful" precharge. For example, in the PG-7VR, the RPG-18 KBCh actually acts as a precharge. The effect of the precharge on the combined armored barrier leads to the occurrence of local destruction of the barrier in a certain area of ​​the jet penetration and, accordingly, to a decrease in the equivalent thickness of the armored barrier for the main charge of the CBC in this area.
  33. +1
    7 February 2023 11: 48
    It's more of an ethical issue, I'd say. Germany begins to take part in the conflict directly. None of the Ukrainians will be able to fully service such equipment, which means the Germans are already in the war.
    1. 0
      7 February 2023 19: 54
      You don't have to serve them. He will reach the enemy and do his job. The "life" of a tank in battle is not long.
  34. 0
    7 February 2023 14: 20
    Quote: Eduard Perov
    First of all, these are railway stations, bridges and substations, lack of fuel and "strangled" air defense, finally! Prevent most of them from appearing on the battlefield at all!


    This is all correct, but no bridges and substations with "strangled" air defense will happen in the near future.

    I really don’t want the disparate anti-tank defense crews that survived after the “chimeras” and “Rapier” to be on their way, later nicknamed “Farewell, Motherland!” ...


    This material was written for the sole purpose of stopping believing the thoroughly edited Wikipedia and showing how you can beat the German "cat", since bridges are bridges, and ours will have to face this "zoo" face to face. And the fact that a kind of memo on the tank has already been prepared is very good. Many thanks to the authors for these illustrations. I just supplemented all this with documentation from the Swedes and the British, that the car is far from impenetrable.


    - and yet, now is the time for drones .... 5 liter (preferably 3 liter) cans of incendiary mixture (napalm), delivered by quadrocopters and dropped on the stern of the tank ....
    1. 0
      7 February 2023 19: 56
      It is better to throw unbreakable vessels with alcohol >=40. And you specified the correct displacement. Especially the first one. Enough for a crew of 5...
  35. +1
    7 February 2023 15: 08
    Quote: Dmitriy22
    Interestingly, but no one thought about the ammunition that hits the tank without breaking through the armor? A remote detonation of a projectile / missile on approach to the tank and a stream of high-speed fragments strips off all optics / lasers / radars, etc., and also hits the gun barrel. The result is a blind useless armored box ...


    - in this case, it may be worth talking about hitting 1, 2 bullets into the bore by targeted shooting at close range (automatic, machine gun, sniper fire) ... the question is - can the bullet affect the projectile in the breech when fired? ....
  36. +1
    7 February 2023 19: 47
    You can fight armada Armata. Very efficient and effective, their use in parades is unparalleled. But it won't be expensive. Therefore, I propose the RPG-43, cheap and cheerful. I met her 40 years ago. Thing!!! (sorry, old, 52 years ago!) And still remembered correctly here. Bottles with cops!!!
  37. -1
    8 February 2023 09: 31
    Quote: Dead Day
    and "sholtsev

    I agree.
    It was necessary for a long time, to firmly squeeze Putin's iron fist, the sluggish German "Faberge", blocking all gas pipelines to Europe.
    But it seems that Yeltsin's and Nemtsov's scumbags have wormed their way into the Kremlin, ready to obligingly spread "rolls" in front of the West.

    Why Putin does not strangle these perverts.
    These ghouls will drive gas to Europe, even if tanks with crosses appear at the Garden Ring.
  38. 0
    10 February 2023 14: 35
    Quote: Santa Fe
    Each Soviet car at the beginning of its history was modern, but was delayed in production for an inadequately long time.


    And why change something if the consumer is satisfied?
    Competition is real only when supply prevails over effective demand. And demand exceeded supply. market laws.

    Quote: Santa Fe

    A new car in the 21st century can't cost 5000 bucks. Lada is a shame that the population is still forced to ride this, and the primitiveness of the frets is presented as an advantage


    Maybe it turns out. And there are those who are ready to buy.
    The population is forced, because the majority of the money is only enough for this.
  39. 0
    10 February 2023 14: 37
    Quote from Canna Steinfeldgrubber
    It seems that the scoop strangled the Germans in quantity.


    And the allies fought differently? Also strangled by quantity, however.
  40. 0
    12 February 2023 00: 31
    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    Quote: Eroma

    Today, we do not even have an unambiguous attitude towards the enemy! On the one hand, we are at war with him, but at the same time we are doing business, paying him for the transit of oil!

    You are right, but to be honest, I don't know what to do in this case.
    The fact is that we, for example, have contractual obligations with Hungary for the supply of gas. And this gas goes through the outskirts. So think about how to do it. Stop gas supplies to Hungary and pay huge fines for breach of contractual obligations, or continue gas supplies and receive government revenues for this. budget.

    But this should have been thought about before!
    How gavzprom boasted about the zombie - like what huge and long contracts we signed !!!
    I could never understand their joke .. well, although it’s clear - a long contract means stability and the possibility of planning ... that is, work in a relaxed atmosphere !!!
    Here also have received a hemorrhagic on slabone!!!
    The terms of the contract were such a mess - that the Americans got excited and
    checked your project "404 - fuck you gas in Europe"
    THAT is here a manifestation of geopolitical stupidity and shortsightedness - the conditions for gas supply turned out to be too sophisticated, provided that we did not control the gas transportation routes.
    They showed their shortsightedness and cowardice .. well, they got a hemorrhoid to the fullest.
  41. 0
    12 February 2023 08: 10
    Which day there are disputes about what to beat and how to beat. Was it impossible to get and check with what and how before. Or maybe we’ll wind a wire on a goose for him?
  42. 0
    21 March 2023 14: 29
    What the heck! Why not destroyed, not burned during the transition. This whole special operation is real and is a special operation to destroy all patriots and sane heroes in Russia. They really have a war with our heroes, and we also have a special operation to destroy them .... All these attacks on the king are only to divert the vector of popular unrest from him ... Perhaps he is fulfilling the American order ... We have everything some actions of retribution... You are out of your mind, up there. These actions of retribution must take place every second, burn and burn this entire outskirts! Who didn't hide... What the fuck kindred people... But Russian patriots don't mean people! What rehab centers! Stick them in your... what a rehab! Legless, armless, with half a head are our heroes. This shouldn't happen at all! Instead of burning down and blowing up the whole outskirts to hell, you are destroying the elite of the Russian gene pool, people with a conscience, thinking and real patriots of the country! And bleat about some kindred people. Not a single scratch should be on the Russian hero! And if it scratches, burn the city right away, leave one funnel! I'm sick of this whole show! What 50 - 90 dead dill per day! There should be 50000 - 9000 per day! There is a war to destroy the Russians! And these creatures above are about some kindred people ... In this case, do not care about the Ukrainian grandmother and child, it is important to save the RUSSIAN WARRIOR, THE RUSSIAN CORRECT GENE POOL! In any case, they hate us, which is quite natural - their sons, fathers and children are dying ... And in any case, they will try to take revenge on our children! You can’t sit on two chairs - either Russians or Ukrainians .... Wipe off the face of the earth all the Khoklandia Okrainsky, and all the geyropa along with them! Just shame and shame! Better a complete eternal emptiness than such a disgrace!
  43. 0
    22 March 2023 13: 35
    The answer to the title of the article is a nuclear missile in Germany .. It's time to finish with these creatures. And you need to start from England .. And why Armageddon will come on the planet again ....
    1. 0
      April 19 2023 15: 53
      Well then, expect a rain of atomic missiles in response. How do you like this prospect instead of Armageddon?
  44. 0
    23 March 2023 11: 56
    The leopard is primarily dangerous for its accurate shot due to its excellent sights, control system and gun stabilization. In general, a reliable and well-balanced vehicle in terms of its characteristics and qualities. The armor is quite serious, and any tank has vulnerabilities and there is not a single sample of this technique in the world that could not be destroyed. At the same time, one should not forget that people are fighting on vehicles, and most likely, the crews will be recruited from experienced tankers with existing combat experience who have undergone additional training on these combat vehicles.
    In connection with the above, it seems to me that the most effective weapon against Leopards, as well as any military equipment, is, first of all, not to defeat it on the battlefield, but to destroy the logistics of transportation, supply of fuel, ammunition, spare parts, remote mining of tank-dangerous areas. And do not forget that this tank is quite heavy for 55 tons and not every bridge will be able to withstand it, that is, by destroying those able to withstand it, it can be very complicated, but everything in a compartment, and make combat use impossible, as well as other equipment.
    Oil, the blood of war! There is no fuel, no tanks, no infantry fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers, shells and cartridges will not be brought up! And the soldiers will not be brought to the front line!


  45. 0
    28 March 2023 19: 16
    You can easily give in the face with a dressed condom. In addition, you can buy a lot of them, in China, they don’t even build a factory because of this. In addition, there is a lot of worn rubber on civilian cars.
  46. 0
    April 2 2023 18: 28
    Thanks for the author for the professional assessment of the article. Now this is a rarity.
  47. 0
    April 3 2023 15: 33
    This "counterattack" really got it already. I really hope that representatives of our General Staff can not only puff out their cheeks and wear a hat. He owed a lot to our fighters who died and were captured in the first months of the NWO. I believe that they will not run through this "counterattack", and even better, they will gouge all this bastard on the approaches and in places of concentration.
  48. 0
    April 19 2023 15: 52
    "... than we can punch the German "cat" in the face." Yes, anything! There are excellent T-54s and T-55s, the famous and legendary T-34 is on the way, and if anything, Austins can be used. Where ours did not disappear.