Why should the Russian Navy weep over the failure of the US military program?

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We are again talking about the US Navy littoral program, in which, apparently, the last kingston has been opened. Many are interested, but what does our fleet have to do with it, but alas, we will have to take a look at the situation completely.

Personally, it seems to me that this kingston was opened back in 2021, when the former USS Freedom was towed from the San Diego Naval Base to the Naval Inactive Ship Maintenance Center.



Why should the Russian Navy weep over the failure of the US military program?
Pictured: "Freedom" being dragged into a sump for decommissioned ships


"Freedom"


In general, ships that have fallen into one of the settling tanks of this center seem to have a choice of a further path. Sale to foreign military, donation of the vessel as a museum or memorial, dismantling and disposal, sinking as part of an artificial reefing program or use as a target vessel ...


Some are lucky enough to go into long-term conservation and are maintained with minimal maintenance (moisture control, corrosion control, leak and fire monitoring) and, if required, they can be called back to active duty.

But something tells me that littoral ships are really everything. And how it all began...

The US Navy's LCS program promised a class of warship consisting of two different designs that could serve as both a light frigate and a coastal patrol ship. That is, everything looked reasonable: the LCS was supposed to deal with tasks for which it would be unprofitable to drive an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer.

As a result, dancing with tambourines around the budget ended up being the way it ended: as you remember, the US military department could not determine which was better, "Freedom" or "Independence" and began to build both classes of ships. Almost immediately.


LCS 1 class "Freedom" began to build in 2005, passed the fleet in 2008 LCS 2 class "Independence" went into construction in 2006, handed over in 2010. They planned to build 32 ships, 16 for each coast.

Lockheed Martin's Fincantieri Marinette Marine built the Freedom class steel hulls, while Austal USA was responsible for the production of the Independence class aluminum hulls. While the ships were being built, an application concept was developed for them. The LCS platform was intended to support forward presence, maritime security, maritime control and deterrence operations, as well as operations independently or as part of a networked force in "high threat environments".

Actually, the replacement of the Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates, very decent ships that are now sold out around the world and serve in other fleets.


Turkey, Spain, Taiwan, Australia, Egypt and other countries operate these ships. Considering that there are 71 more ships out of 1977 built ships (built from 2004 to 36), this indicates a certain strength of the project.

And these frigates were supposed to be replaced by LCS.

We've seen the LCS storm in oceans of claims and scandals about ships not being quite up to the task they were supposed to be, to put it mildly. The main complaint was the constant failure of the power plants, the second problem was the armament.

One of the pluses that became a minus and generally sentenced the LCS program was the modularity of weapons. It was given out as the strongest technological move, they say, a ship with modular weapons in the fight against pirates can replace 12 (!) Ordinary ships (it's not me, it's Joseph Dunford and Northrop Grumman gave this out at one time). And at the same time, the US Navy was slowly rewriting the instructions, canceling the old requirements that the LCS could not fulfill and coming up with new combat missions ... how to say it, simpler.

Initially, it seemed that modularity was really chic. We need a minesweeper or a minesweeper - they installed what was needed, and the ship went. The activity of enemy submarines is not a question. It is necessary to escort the convoy in the face of opposition aviation enemy - please, the air defense module is at your service.

And in the basic configuration, the ships looked, in principle, almost unarmed. The Freedom LCS was armed with a 57 mm Mk.110 cannon, a RAM air defense launcher with 21 RIM-116 missiles, and four 12,7 mm machine guns. There is a hangar for one MH-60 helicopter and one MQ-8 UAV helicopter. There are jamming complexes. "Independence" was armed in the same way, but at least the radar from the "Phalanx" was stuck, at least something.


It is doubtful that in such a complex the ships could at least protect themselves. Indeed, the only thing they were capable of was shooting boats of pirates from Somalia with machine guns. Everything else is highly doubtful.

But modules...

1. Module for combating enemy boats and boats (Anti-Surface warfare module). Two 30-mm Bushmaster automatic cannons in modules, NLOS-LC missile launchers (range up to 25 km), an MN-60 helicopter in an assault configuration and a UAV, which was also supposed to be loaded in combat.

The NLOS-LC program "did not play" and was closed along with the main Future Combat Systems program (chainsaw howl), the Navy wanted to install the AGM-176 "Griffin" missile, but it looked like nonsense even in American eyes. What the high-precision missile with a range of up to 8 km and a warhead of about 6 kg forgot on the ship is a question. As a result, there is a module, but ...

2. Anti-Submarine warfare module. Very meaningful in content. It includes a descending sonar, a towed sonar Thales CAPTAS-4, and an AN / SLQ-61 towed radio countermeasure system. This is the detection and partial protection of electronic warfare. Weapon? This is an MH-60S helicopter or the same MQ-8 drone, armed with a Mk.54 torpedo. Everybody. Plus, the module, as it were, is still not ready.

3. Mine clearance module. On paper, it's a masterpiece. Indeed, the system is simply magnificent, not giving mines a chance to live. Laser mine detection systems from a helicopter, data exchange with other ships and a coastal control center, a mine search sonar, a remotely controlled mine search boat with its own sonar, an underwater mine search vehicle, disposable mine destroyers. The helicopter would be equipped not only with a laser search system, but also with a special magnetic trawl. There is no module, individual components have been tested.

4. Irregular warfare and landing module. One landing helicopter, one fire support helicopter, landing boats for high-speed delivery to the coast and, in fact, the marines themselves. This variation was more suitable for the Independence, which has two helicopters in the hangar. Plus, part of the premises was assigned to the warehouses of weapons of the landing force and the placement of the landing force itself. The module was not ready.

In general, we got ships with a displacement of more than 3000 tons, that is, in fact, a frigate type, but costing two-thirds of the cost of a destroyer.

Plus, it turned out that replacing the module is not a game, but work for 3-4 weeks, plus the presence of specialists was required. If a ship was counter-pirating in the Gulf of Aden, for example, then it turns out that the calculations of the remaining modules would beat the buckets on the shore, gradually decomposing from idleness. A hydroacoustic as a machine gunner is also stupid.

And it turned out that the modules that were embodied in metal suddenly turned out to be permanently installed. And 10 years after the start of the program, Vice Admiral Tim Rowden (commander of the surface forces of the US Navy) at that time, reported that

“All ships will be divided into six divisions. Three divisions each for the Independence class and the same number for the Freedom class. Each division will be equipped with its own types of modules - anti-mine, anti-submarine and a module for combating boats and boats. Each division will work out only its own tasks - the fight against boats and boats, the fight against mines and anti-submarine defense. There will be no replacement crew, whose task is to work on modular weapons - the crews will be formed as permanent ones. At the same time, two crews will be formed for each ship, who will serve on it in turn. This will maximize the participation of ships in combat services "

Curtain, more precisely, bubbles on the water. Two crews - this is in order to work out the resource of the ships as quickly as possible and write them off. And start coming up with something new, not so ... advanced.

But the money has already been cut... However, who are we to cry over someone else's budget? Ours could not stand the exhibitions and competitions, so we are on the waves for the American.

And no one is surprised by the start of the new FFG (X) program, now known as the Constellation class, according to which the fleet should receive up to 20 frigates of this type.


The American naval leadership considers it right to combine the technical innovations of the LCS class and the reliability and durability of the Oliver Perry class of frigates.

True, for the price (500-600 million dollars apiece) and displacement (7200 tons versus 3500 for the LCS), the Constellation class is both larger and more expensive. But here it is immediately clear that a ship of such dimensions will definitely have greater survivability and combat capabilities.

The verdict, as they say, is final and not subject to appeal. Open kingstones!

And already three of the four ships of the first series (Freedom, Independence and Coronado) have already been decommissioned. And this year, nine Freedom-class intertidal ships (Forth Worth, Milwaukee, Detroit, Little Rock, Sioux City, Wichita, Billings, Indianapolis and St. Louis will be decommissioned and placed in reserve, despite the fact that the ships have a nominal service life of 25 years.

25 years turned out to be just an unattainable period. Only "Forth Worth" (LCS 3) will serve 12 years, which will be the maximum figure, and "St. Louis" will be withdrawn from active service after only three years of operation.

Do you also hear mocking laughter? These are the Polish (former American "Olivers Perry") frigates "General Kazimir Puławski" (former USS "Clark" (built in 1980) and "General Tadeusz Kosciuszko" (former USS "Wadsworth" built in 1978) are leaving this circus. I note, afloat and performing some tasks.


Today in the United States, admirals puff out their cheeks (just like ours), pretending that nothing like this happened. According to defense specialist Craig Hooper

"...the first two Freedom class vessels taught the fleet a lot about the inherent stability and endurance issues on the Freedom platform - the LCS 1 was supposed to have buoyancy additions to the stern, and subsequent models grew in size by a good percentage."

“The Navy learned that the shape of the hull, given its weight, required a lot of energy to reach maximum speed, and that the platform used a lot of fuel. And on the experience of LCS 1 and LCS 3, they began to reveal the inherent engineering flaws of the Freedom transmission.

Here. Stormy applause. There is something to learn by looking into your mouth and holding your breath. Build a dozen expensive troughs to start studying their shortcomings! Moreover, congenital. Calculations, preliminary analysis? Let it be you, we'll figure it out on the spot!

In general, the first four intertidal ships served well as test platforms and tests showed that the LCS program is a complete and dull bottom sediment, and the ships are only suitable for cutting into metal and microcircuits. Which will be done in the very near future.

“I think one of the most important things the Navy learned from the experience of testing the first four LCS models was that the Navy did not want the Independence class combat system as much, and that the Freedom operating platform based on Aegis, better suited the desires of the fleet, ”said Hooper

Like this. As a result, both families go to waste, because it is simply unrealistic to sell IT.

And if this were the first time... Here we can recall the already distant 90s, when the Osprey minesweepers were built at an accelerated pace in the USA.


12 pieces were immediately built, but then it turned out what a fierce bottom it was. Due to the design features (the designers had to hang on the yards of these unfortunate minesweepers), ships of this type can only perform one of two tasks: searching or minesweeping, since if there is search equipment on board, there is no possibility of placing any mechanical mine - trawling equipment.

Well, in fact, the forerunners of modular littoral ships ...

By the way, the super-managers of the US Navy were able to rub half of these underminers into Taiwan, Greece and Egypt for money. The rest were very quickly scrapped. The record holder was the USS Shrike (MHC-62), which served only 6 years.

As a result, the experiment was a success, the "Freedoms" go under the knife, and in their place they will build frigates of the "Constellation" class, which are the European project of the FREMM frigate.


If this is not called "sailed", then in general then it is not entirely clear what is happening.

Of course, for some time, as a distraction, the American littorals will still pretend to be something like that in the coastal waters of the United States, and then quietly take their places in the sump, waiting for cutting.

Why does this concern us so much?


Because we have everything the same, only the pipe is lower and the smoke is thinner. That is, project 20386 corvettes and project 20160 patrol ships. Modular.

Yes, at the beginning of the XNUMXs, when Russia and the United States almost became friends, our naval leadership visited the States with great pleasure, where they picked up this infection - modularity. Then he enthusiastically tells the media how cool Russian modular ships will become.

But Russia is not the United States, the budgets are somewhat different, and the possibilities of industry, too. Why ours liked the idea of ​​modular ship armament so much is hard to say (everyone understood everything), but the Russian fleet rushed into a furious dance on the Danish and American rakes, completely ignoring what was happening with those who started modular dances. And the Danes by that time were stuffing their boats wherever possible.

Today, of course, we (who write) cleverly reason in such a way that we could study someone else's experience, analyze mistakes, and so on. We wonder why many of our admirals did not do this. Yes, today, in the light of the SVO, which simply highlights problems in the Russian armed forces as a whole with a laser, an incapable fleet in particular does not cause positive.

The Danes, by the way, have sold their fashionable Flyvefisken boats, the Americans are putting Freedom under the knife. And what will happen to our project 20160? Non-seaworthy, slow-moving (16 knots - this is the criticized "Varyag" went to the Russian-Japanese at such a speed), practically unarmed both in terms of air defense and in terms of shock (container launchers for "Caliber" are still not ready) weapons?


It's good that they didn't build any further. Six of these misunderstandings will depict something in the parades, because they are simply not suitable for more. One 76-mm gun and two 14,5-mm machine guns are simply excellent weapons for a ship with a displacement of 1800 tons. And from the list of container modules that these miracle ships will be rearming, only the container diving bell is ready so far. It greatly increases the combat capability of an unarmed ship.

Considering that the first modular ship without modules entered service in 2018, comments, as they say, are superfluous.

The same is true for the modular corvettes of project 20386, for which there are no modules yet and which are also mercilessly criticized in many respects. Including in terms of speed too. Plus, the cost of a corvette is comparable to the cost of a frigate of the Admiral Gorshkov type, which is a completely different combat unit.

If you still study the unsuccessful experience of the Danes and Americans, then you can draw certain conclusions:
- in the conditions of the outbreak of war, the ships will fight with the modules that are installed on them. The enemy simply will not give time to replace.
- uninstalled modules, more precisely, their storage locations and the location of the calculations will become priority targets for the enemy.
- modules can't keep up with ships. Proven by both Americans and Russians. The Americans generally have a joke that the modules will be ready the next day after the decommissioning of the ship.


Did they understand all this in Russia when the hobby for modular ships began? After visiting the United States and admiring the strength of the American fleet of our Admiral Chirkov, a turn began in shipbuilding. Having replaced the post of Commander-in-Chief of the Navy to the position of Chief Advisor to the USC President, Chirkov began certain changes in the shipbuilding program.


It was then that the Navy abandoned the idea of ​​​​development of project 20380 and 20385 corvettes, and decided to build project 22160 patrol ships. which were inferior in terms of combat capabilities to the previous project 20386, and in terms of anti-submarine capabilities to the old corvette of project 20385.

But they were expensive, which allowed a lot.

In general, a lot has been written about what Russian modular ships are and by people who are very knowledgeable in maritime affairs. Now one question remains on the agenda: the Americans, tired of figuring out how to use their littoral ships, for which those very weapons modules were never made, simply decided to write them off and cut them.

What fate awaits their ill-fated colleagues in the Russian Navy? It is doubtful that our shipbuilding industry will be able to build new ships to replace these strange creatures. It is the Americans who will tense up and give out a series of their Constellations, fortunately, the ancestor of the project is European and has already been tested in the waves.

And, note, without these modules.

It is hard to say what they will do with the already built ships of the above projects. Most likely, pretending (like the Americans) that everything is going as it should, they will continue to operate. And those same containers for Caliber will be waiting. But in any case, it's time to start moving, because the Americans have already begun moving towards new ships.

The Russian fleet exactly repeated all the mistakes made by the Americans. The only question now is what will be the reaction, if any.

Although, of course, you can not twitch. For 20 years, participation in the parades of the same "Bykov" is enough. But like a classic: Annushka has not only bought the oil, but also spilled it...
56 comments
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  1. +16
    30 January 2023 04: 58
    Yes, Roman, modularity without modules is of course power. Bablo defeated evil? No, not evil, the loot defeated the fleet .......
    1. +3
      31 January 2023 14: 42
      Not everything is as the author describes in the article. Firstly, 20386 we have one and there is no decision to continue this series. We would have mastered by the end of 20385. Secondly, 20160 will be upgraded, and the new ships will already be with standard weapons. Although in general I agree that the idea of ​​​​modularity for the fleet is practically not feasible.
  2. +6
    30 January 2023 05: 15
    What is it suddenly again (for the thousandth time) about modules?
    Is there really nothing more to write about the Navy ...
    1. +5
      30 January 2023 05: 38
      Yes, there is nothing special to write, mostly only shipbuilders-submariners delight hi
    2. +3
      30 January 2023 13: 57
      Quote: Doccor18
      What is it suddenly again (for the thousandth time) about modules?
      Is there really nothing more to write about the Navy ...

      Well, the news is generally from the USA, that modularity is over. And as for the freaks of 20160 ... well, they moved the "Thor" modules on the helipads, such as they marked the blockade of Odessa and ... that's it - to catch the goofy patrol of conrobandists, but ... with such speed and seaworthiness ... They seem to be making containers in BUGAS. Maybe in the second container they will come up with a submersible GAS. In general, if you figure out how to make at least something useful out of them, then it would be worthwhile for them to think on board the "Packet-NK" and ... instead of a helicopter hangar, try to install "Pantsir-M" like that of "Karakurt". Of course, they can’t add speed and seaworthiness can’t be improved, but at least a tuft of wool from a filthy sheep. what True, the Pantsir-M module costs 1 billion rubles ... and Package-NK costs money ... and the redevelopment itself ... But at least you get some kind of BMZ corvette, on which a helicopter can also land . But there may not be enough time for all this ... the campaign of the 3rd World War is already beginning.
  3. +4
    30 January 2023 05: 26
    The most important conclusion to be drawn from such characteristic blunders of mattresses as LCS and F-35 is that an unfinished project cannot be put into series.
    Although, of course, this gives rise to the under ... annoying cries of "Khdi Armata? Kurgan Khdi ?!" In rhyme!
    1. +13
      30 January 2023 12: 08
      The most important conclusion is that admirals / managers for a Caliber shot should not be allowed to go to government orders, they will spoil everything, SUVs. Ships should be designed and built by scientists, and not convenient "leaders", it is necessary to fight for the Russian fleet, but there is no one!
      1. +5
        30 January 2023 19: 17
        Quote: Severok
        Ships should be designed and built by scientists, and not convenient "leaders", it is necessary to fight for the Russian fleet, but there is no one!
        Learned people design what the fleet ordered them to do. There used to be military research institutes, which I don’t know now, but if they don’t exist, then there is no one to write to except the TTZ admirals.
  4. +3
    30 January 2023 05: 54
    Not a class, but a type! A class is a corvette, frigate, etc.
  5. Eug
    +2
    30 January 2023 06: 25
    Rearm with air defense modules based on Pantsir or Thor (I suspect that it will be very important soon), and let them strengthen the air defense of the naval base in the Black Sea. Against naval drones, especially surface ones, I think they will also be able to "work" with firearms. With underwater ones, as for me, it’s more difficult, although (in my “couch” thinking) a towed GAS - if there is a suitable one in terms of characteristics - and the good old RBU can also be used as a “module” if the displacement allows. And ignore the speed, if only the seaworthiness for the Black Sea is enough with such options for "modules".
    1. +5
      30 January 2023 12: 19
      Quote: Eug
      Rearm with air defense modules based on Pantsir or Tor (I suspect that it will be very important soon), and let them strengthen the air defense of the naval base in the Black Sea.

      They wrote that with the "Thor" the same problem as with the old "Dagger" - the range of the air defense system is less than the launch range of the UAV guided weapons.
      Yes, and we have only land modules. Kupol, of course, wrote that the M2KM is universal, but layout problems remain. The land "monoblock" has a launcher, a radar and a control cabin in a single module, which is not good for a ship: a large upper weight, shading by the superstructure of the bow sector, a rotating "tower" of the module that is absolutely unnecessary for the ship.
      Naval modularity is completely different: separate radar, launcher and control cabin modules that can be placed in the most convenient way (radar - on a superstructure or mast, launcher - below deck, control cabin or its equipment - also below deck, closer to the CIC) and complete them ships in various combinations.
      And the "Pantsir" still has a question about the operation of the radar in marine conditions (high humidity, water dust).
      Quote: Eug
      Against naval drones, especially surface ones, I think they will also be able to "work" with firearms.

      They still need to be found. Judging by the photo, their radar visibility is extremely low.
      Quote: Eug
      With submarines, as for me, it’s more difficult, although (in my "sofa" thinking) towed GAS - if there is a suitable one in terms of characteristics

      It seems that for 22160 they made a module with the Minotaur. But they did it as always - senselessly and mercilessly, having managed to inflate the GAS to the dimensions of a 40-foot container.
      Quote: Eug
      And ignore the speed, if only the seaworthiness for the Black Sea is enough with such options for "modules".

      How much more to ignore.
  6. +1
    30 January 2023 06: 51
    American modularity and ours differ. And very much. Our modularity means replacing obsolete equipment of the same type of one class with new one. That is, there is a certain volume in the stern for a cannon machine. a week or two, but they don’t dock for half a year. Roughly speaking, unification in size for equipment. As an example, universal launchers for anti-ship missiles. Onyxes, Calibers or Zircons can be used with minimal changes.
    1. +4
      30 January 2023 19: 48
      Life has taught me this way ... A friend told me that he served on the Varyag, how they cut out 4 decks with all cable routes, posts and weapons in order to change something in the turbine. Now weapons are placed in the nose, and above the MTO, a maximum of a helicopter hangar. So modularity was brought up.
  7. +7
    30 January 2023 07: 25
    For some reason, I thought about the system of our military education ...
    Military schools are specialized secondary institutions that provide almost all the knowledge for officer service. Further in the academies, this knowledge is deepened and expanded. But the strategic level, and all graduates of military academies are supposed to be strategists, implies an excellent knowledge of the economy and its laws, because strategy is resource management, not least. With this, our military education is rather weak. If strategists are being trained, so it is necessary to train strategists, i.e. people really with an academic education, with the broadest outlook and intellect. Perhaps then such "masterpieces" will not be created.
    1. 0
      30 January 2023 09: 39
      What are the laws in economics? So, observations of consumer behavior and accurate calculation, because the economy is, first of all, people, and here psychological stereotypes come to the forefront. The (scientific) law is objective and universal, it does not depend on the subject (person), just as the acceleration of free fall does not depend on a specific person and biological species. For example, animals do not have an economy and the "laws" of the economy do not apply to them.
      1. +9
        30 January 2023 09: 46
        In fact, the translation of the word "economy" - "economy". As for the objectivity of economic laws, it manifests itself through the actions of subjects. In other words, the actions of the laws of physics do not depend on the actions of a person, while the objectivity of economic laws implies the occurrence of a specific consequence from a specific action, i.e. expressed in the establishment of a rigid causal relationship.
    2. +2
      30 January 2023 10: 23
      Military schools are specialized secondary institutions that provide almost all the knowledge for officer service.


      This is with what fright you have become secondary military schools? lol
      1. +8
        30 January 2023 13: 44
        I don’t know myself, the devil beguiled. I won't do it again.
  8. +3
    30 January 2023 09: 26
    In the late 80s, we drove minesweepers and destroyers to patrol and escort in the Persian Gulf, the Gulf of Aden, the Albaran Sea, and the South Atlantic. In the 90s, minesweepers with destroyers ran out, they began to drive BODs.
    I have a question for Mr. Admiral Skomorokhov .. Mr. Admiral, the BOD is already running out, TAVKR Kuznetsov is still under repair, how do you plan to protect Russia's economic interests in the vast oceans?
    1. +4
      30 January 2023 23: 25
      how do you plan to protect the economic interests of Russia in the vast oceans?


      And we have worse problems now.
      The question is - what prevented a pair of corvettes from being built in 22160-2016 instead of six 2021s? And then not a single one was laid during this period.
      Another question - what prevented, instead of 20386 (40+ yards in total) and six 22160 (36 yards), from building five 20380 without an ultra-expensive radar, with which their price went over twenty billion?
      The answer is nothing.
      And yes, 22160 is unsuitable for protecting economic interests, in general.

      By the way, the performance of the fleet in the NWO has not yet made your brain come out of the dusk and notice how miserable your antics are in the comments?
      Or do you get paid for every ... mmmm ... time?
      1. +3
        31 January 2023 08: 05
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        And we have worse problems now.

        Exactly, for this reason, the finances will go past the fleet to the more sought-after branches of the armed forces, and not to the corvettes!
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        and what prevented, instead of six 22160, from building a pair of corvettes in 2016-2021?

        This is not a question for me, you are moonlighting as a sewer in this topic, and you have the cards in your hands! It’s quite enough for me that the corvettes are being built, by the way, despite the commemoration you tripled for them!
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        fleet performance in NWO

        laughing Sasha, you shouldn’t consider me that simple-minded layman to whom you successfully hang noodles on the ears! That Black Sea Fleet, which you and your fans are pouring excrement on, successfully completes the task of destroying the logistics and economy of Ukraine!
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        22160 is unsuitable for the protection of economic interests, in general.

        And who is eligible?
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        how miserable are your antics in the comments?
        Or do you get paid for every ... mmmm ... time?

        bully Of course they do, you and Klimov are not the only ones who receive salaries in Nezavisimaya Gazeta for your libels! By the way, where is Klimov? In what regions now?
        1. 0
          1 February 2023 08: 51
          The question is, what prevented FIFA-2014 from spending billions on strengthening defense instead of Sochi-2018? So the holidays passed and H who doesn’t even remember them anymore, and the ships would have served for another 30 years ... I’m already silent about storing Russian money in the bedside table of NATO countries
          1. +3
            1 February 2023 14: 18
            Quote: Mikhail Krivopalov
            prevented instead of Sochi-2014, FIFA-2018 from spending billions on strengthening defense?

            what Do you have problems with defense?
            Quote: Mikhail Krivopalov
            So the holidays passed and H who doesn’t remember them anymore, and the ships would have served for another 30 years

            I knew the times, Mikhail, when they did not spare money for ships, tanks and planes, but for some reason this did not save the country from death!
            Quote: Mikhail Krivopalov
            I'm already silent about the storage of Russian money in the bedside table of NATO countries

            And a lot of Russian money in NATO's nightstand? And if the name of the bedside table is changed to the Buyer of gas and oil, and the money is called revenue, assets in joint companies and loans...???
    2. 0
      31 January 2023 00: 45
      Defending our borders and territories will be an extreme concern.
  9. +9
    30 January 2023 09: 47
    The Americans played with everyone, until there were no opponents close. Billions will not master themselves. Plus the theme is quite in the spirit of the times. Now when China is building 10+ destroyers at the same time, the games are over. Here is the Far - 5x052DL (each for 64 missiles) at the construction stage on January 23. Approximately the same in Shanghai.


    Actually, now China and the United States are leaving for their league in the fleet. The rest can not compete objectively.
    1. 0
      30 January 2023 14: 18
      One of the key problems is that in the LCS program there were 2 completely different ships Freedom and Independence. The first one turned out to be extremely unsuccessful, they actually wanted to unhook him from the project, but LM prolapsed their project. If there was only one Independence, then the experiment would have ended successfully.
      1. 0
        31 January 2023 07: 50
        Quote from cold wind
        One of the key problems is that in the LCS program there were 2 completely different ships Freedom and Independence

        )))
        Some Soviet traditions.

        Here is another funny moment. The Americans were so fed up with revolutionary and unparalleled ships (LKS, Zumvolt, Ford) that the experience of serving the "ship" part was almost the main requirement. Therefore, they took the vile Catholic FREMM, and not the Orthodox, that is, the Protestant Type 26, which seemed to be the first choice in their situation.
    2. -2
      31 January 2023 13: 26
      There is one objective reality that is being fought and put in the first place in terms of threats, not the Chinese surface fleet, but the Submarine Forces of the Russian Federation, which have great power. In this matter, the Chinese grow and grow.
  10. PPD
    +8
    30 January 2023 10: 02
    And what will happen to our project 20160?

    Author, do not explain what is the project 20160?
    I know 22160, but 20160?
    Probably this project will be designed someday.
    It was made in order not to drive to fight the BOD pirates.
    And the error you have is not in one place.
    If you can’t tritely name the project correctly, what kind of naval topics can you talk about at all.
    Pull up knowledge for a start elementary.
    And then soon you will have Abrams flying like a helicopter will start wassat tongue
  11. +6
    30 January 2023 10: 22
    Fully agree with the author. These very modular ships will fight with what is installed on them, it is unrealistic to change modules in a war. Further, those who served and serve on ships are well aware that it is impossible to prepare the crew for all options for completing the ship, the same preparation for the BZZH is achieved by constant training, to automatism. And if the ship is one today, and tomorrow it will be completely different? How to be?
  12. +1
    30 January 2023 11: 22
    There is nothing criminal in modularity, the question is that the ship should, in principle, be for different tasks at the same time: air defense, attack.
    But then, by changing the charges in the universal launchers, he will get a bias in one direction or another.
    It's just that the operators will have more weapons at their disposal.
    Putting tori and shells on ships may not be ideal - land systems are not designed for pitching.
    1. +8
      30 January 2023 12: 42
      They forgot one thing, and the most important thing, the people, the crew, without him it's all just iron. How do you imagine acoustics in the role of an operator of a circular view of the SNR, an anti-submarine commander in the role of an air defense ship or a minesweeper. It requires too diametrically opposed skills and experience.
    2. +6
      30 January 2023 15: 22
      Quote: dfk-80
      There is nothing criminal in modularity, the question is that the ship should, in principle, be for different tasks at the same time: air defense, attack.
      But then, by changing the charges in the universal launchers, he will get a bias in one direction or another.
      It's just that the operators will have more weapons at their disposal.

      And we will end up with "Burke" or "Tika". Because PLO needs two normal GAS (how much did "Polynom" require for itself? wink ) and a pair of helicopters, and for air defense, a superstructure or mast with 360-degree headlights. Plus BIC.
      1. +3
        30 January 2023 19: 21
        Quote: Alexey RA
        And we will end up with "Burke" or "Tika"
        Well, good. I don’t understand at all why, having six dozen Burks, the states are messing around with this trifle. Berks can solve all problems and there are many of them. Is it cheaper to run? So the boats themselves are wildly expensive, most likely they will not beat off on savings.
        1. +3
          31 January 2023 07: 32
          Quote: bk0010
          I don’t understand at all why, having six dozen Burks, the states are fiddling with this trifle

          1. This "little thing" is one of the strongest ships in the world. I'm talking about Constellation, not about LKS.
          2. Not all tasks are solved by quality, many require quantity. First of all, for cruising (taking into account modern realities). For example, if you want to sink Russian tankers, will you drive Berks?
          3. American ships, this is not new, tend to rise in price. The question is "what kind of ship can we get for a billion dollars?" always appropriate, so to speak for calibration. Half a Burke for a third of its price is a fair deal.
    3. 0
      31 January 2023 19: 24
      You probably haven't read Stanyukovich. From the word "completely". On each ship, each sailor in his area of ​​responsibility knows every valve, switch, pipe, cable, etc. And nailed it all to a shine. The commander in white kid gloves went down to the engine room and could run his finger anywhere. The punishment for the soiled glove was immediate.
      Now, imagine a new module...
  13. +10
    30 January 2023 12: 36
    A reasonable question arises. Why are the people who made such decisions, who allowed the incompetent waste of budgetary funds, and most importantly, the gifted ones, who “pushed through” such misunderstandings, their positions and names are specific and known, are still not the penal code of the FSB of the Russian Federation, the military prosecutor’s office has not opened criminal cases under articles of sabotage against them, undermining the country's defense capability and a huge waste of budgetary funds. Oh, I forgot, in an inherited estate society, with a personnel policy on the verge of idiocy, based on nepotism, personal loyalty, lies and crime, where the principles of “we don’t hand over our own” and mutual responsibility rule the show in relations, and the main criterion for evaluating activity, spiritual and material, not professional and business qualities, personal achievements, but loot and personal connections, this is impossible.
  14. +7
    30 January 2023 12: 36
    Six worthless patrolmen of project 22160 need to be turned back to Zelenodolsk for modernization. All is not yet lost. They can make mediocre corvettes.
    Initially, according to the project, it was planned to install on this ship in front of the superstructure an air defense system, Shtil-1, for 24 cells. But then, for some reason, they abandoned the air defense system, and the room for the missile cellar remained. The deck was sewn up and a gym was made indoors. Now you can make a cutout in the deck and insert a 1-cell ,,Calm-12,, module and a ,,Caliber,, 8-cell module there. According to the starting equipment.
    Further, behind the helicopter hangar, on the sides, where 20-foot containers should stand, you can install two ,,AK-630 ,, or ,, Duets ,,. They just go there.
    Under the helipad, above the docking chamber, where 40-foot containers for missiles should be, it is possible to install Paket-NK complexes on each side and lowered GAS. Further aft, on the same deck, you can install a towed GAS.
    That's actually the whole modernization. There are places for the complexes and no changes to the ship's hull are required. At the same time, he can still perform his reconnaissance and sentinel tasks. In his docking chamber, he can carry a DSHL for delicate operations, or he can also carry an unmanned anti-mine boat in it. The speed of this corvette will be more than 20 knots, which is not entirely bad. The downside is that he will not have a bulb and nasal GAS. Here is such a corvette of the near zone for the Black Sea from a patrolman can be made for not very big money and relatively quickly.
    1. 0
      30 January 2023 13: 38
      Is there enough space for additional equipment operators? The ship is not large. Although, as a last resort, add residential containers (change houses), there is where to equip workplaces.
      1. +1
        30 January 2023 18: 04
        There are 20 additional places. In terms of habitability, they say, this is the best ship.
    2. +3
      30 January 2023 15: 47
      Quote: Vladgar
      Initially, according to the project, it was planned to install on this ship in front of the superstructure an air defense system, Shtil-1, for 24 cells. But then, for some reason, they abandoned the air defense system, and the room for the missile cellar remained. The deck was sewn up and a gym was made indoors. Now you can make a cutout in the deck and insert a 1-cell ,,Calm-12,, module and a ,,Caliber,, 8-cell module there. According to the starting equipment.

      The problem is that there is a place under the UVP. But what to do with the radar is not clear. Where will we put the same "Nuts"?
      Quote: Vladgar
      Under the helipad, above the docking chamber, where 40-foot containers for missiles should be, it is possible to install Paket-NK complexes on each side and lowered GAS. Further aft, on the same deck, you can install a towed GAS.

      There is only room for 2 containers. One of which will be occupied by the Minotaur.
      And there is a well-known problem with the "Package" - it has both a heavy launcher and significant loads when fired.
      Quote: Vladgar
      In his docking chamber, he can carry a DSHL for delicate operations.

      Yeah ... very delicate - because you can accept and release DSHL only in calm. Otherwise, it simply will not enter the porthole.
      1. +1
        30 January 2023 18: 41
        1. Now, "Nuts",, they no longer put. Corvettes don't have them. The patrolman is equipped with a radar station “Pozitiv”, which monitors the air and surface situation, with a detection and guidance system. It is also possible to additionally place the Mineral radar by installing AFAR canvases on the planes of the tower.
        2. There will be no containers under the helipad. In the stern there will be a normal, stationary towed GAS. In the GAS container, the Minotaur is no longer required.
        3. The PU is not heavy. These PTZ complexes, with all their problems and loads, are on corvettes. They even wanted to put them on ,, Karakurt ,,.
        4. There is a design flaw with the transom cover in the stern. When opened, it is fixed in a horizontal position. When entering the docking chamber through the port on the waves, the DSL hit against this cover. The paratroopers filled themselves with bruises and bumps. The lid can be lifted up to a vertical position. We'll fix it. There are no people on the unmanned anti-mine boat. There is no one to be crippled and the boat is smaller and lower. These are additional functions that the corvette, in general, do not need. You can also refuse them. Brew the stern and make a technical room or cockpit there. Everything is solved. Let's agree that it will be at least some kind of fighter, in any case better than a toothless dove of peace. The ship is not hopeless.
        1. +3
          30 January 2023 20: 19
          1. There are no "Nuts" on the corvettes, because there is another air defense system. All ships with Calm or Hurricane have Nuts. 2nd place for containers exactly under the helipad, which, as it were, hints: either the use of a helicopter, or shooting with Caliber. 3. PU "Package" is not at all heavy. It's just that the shot is fired by a powder charge, which requires deck reinforcement, so the "package" in the container will not work. 4. It is generally necessary to kill this docking chamber so that it does not interfere with the work of the "Minotaur". At the same time, again, no way. 5. Crew for it all? 6. And the energy of the ship will pull all the Wishlist? Radar and HAK will normally consume this way. 7. The ship was built according to civil standards, that is, duplication of systems is not provided. The vessel is only 1800 tons, and you want weapons in it like in a frigate. "Ship" place in BOHRA
          1. +1
            31 January 2023 00: 40
            I support, a bit to finish and a wonderful pskr will turn out
            1. +1
              31 January 2023 10: 23
              Quote: guerrilla707
              I support, a bit to finish and a wonderful pskr will turn out

              So 22160 was the original PSKR. This is directly stated in its tasks - the protection of territorial waters, patrolling the 200-mile exclusive economic zone in the open and closed seas, the suppression of smuggling and piracy, the search for and assistance to victims of maritime disasters, environmental monitoring of the environment, etc. Even when it was given to the fleet, 20 percent of purely naval tasks appeared in this list.
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. +1
      30 January 2023 23: 30
      Initially, according to the project, it was planned to install on this ship in front of the superstructure an air defense system, Shtil-1, for 24 cells.


      It was never planned, the bow of the hull is too narrow, Shtil's UVPUs do not fit there.
      No need to look at models from exhibitions, to which launcher caps were glued to the deck.

      Further, behind the helicopter hangar, along the sides, where 20-foot containers should be


      They are not on the sides, they are under the flight deck.

      you can install complexes ,, Package-NK ,, on each side


      Will the deck withstand the recoil when the gas generator is triggered in the TPK CM-588? Return to the real world, please.
  15. 0
    30 January 2023 13: 19
    To call the Oliver Perry frigates good ships - is that such a joke?))) The ship turned out to be a rare bullshit, why the mattress covers quickly stuffed them into their sixes. By the way, this has already been written about many times.
    1. +2
      30 January 2023 15: 51
      Quote: TermNachTER
      To call the Oliver Perry frigates good ships - is that such a joke?))) The ship turned out to be a rare bullshit, why the mattress covers quickly stuffed them into their sixes.

      They were put away when the Cold War ended and the LCS games began. And before that, the OHP was the backbone of the PLO and air defense on the routes of the same Atlantic. A normal budget escort is cheap and massive.
      1. 0
        8 February 2023 00: 19
        A single-shaft, single-rotor ship that could fail for any reason. A single-channel air defense system capable of firing at only one target. Unsuccessful contours of the hull, because of which, there was a sharp, very unpleasant pop of the bow on the wave. These are just the main drawbacks. I can continue.
      2. 0
        2 March 2023 09: 41
        Perry was their ship of the 2nd, if not 3rd, line. Hence the location of the universal AU, one shaft, and much more. They take them because you can take them, the electronics are excellent from the very beginning.
    2. +2
      30 January 2023 23: 31
      This is only in your virtual reality, but in the real it was different.
  16. +4
    30 January 2023 13: 44
    The main conclusion is that platforms developed in the 60-70s are now fighting. Tanks, planes, ships. Everything developed by design engineers based on military experience using new technologies is still working. And new solutions, like the F-35, that modular ships - all this is just a wunder waffle on paper. Everything is returning to reliable, time-honed systems with software, guidance systems and other things that are currently needed linked to them.
    1. +2
      30 January 2023 15: 53
      We won the Second World War not with the most advanced weapons, but with technological, easy to learn and use, and therefore massive and reliable. If we compare the T-14 and T-90, then 90% of the tankers going into battle will prefer to fight in the 90s and 72s. As for amers specialists, AKM is preferable, and technological and more advanced AR and KX
  17. +1
    30 January 2023 21: 18
    Well, 20160 can be used as patrol ships in the interests of the Border Troops or something like that. Many guns are not needed, a platoon of marines and a boat have somewhere to place.
  18. +2
    31 January 2023 08: 35
    Come on, you blame the ships of project 22160. I am sure that a skilled crew will be able to reveal all the positive properties of the ship, which Chirkov, Zakharov and their associates talked about. Here, by the way, to mobilize them, make up the crew of 22160 and send them to the NWO.
  19. 0
    4 February 2023 21: 09
    Is anyone still surprised at the purges in the Red Army before the start of the war? I think that many times more landings and executions are needed now. And, in fact, why be surprised? Both here and there capitalism, and therefore systemic problems are the same.