Full afterburner: the pace of development of the PD-8 is shifting to the left

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Full afterburner: the pace of development of the PD-8 is shifting to the left
PD-8 under the wing of the Il-76LL flying laboratory. Source: Rostec


8 tons of thrust from Perm


The mobilization of the domestic industry has touched the aircraft industry, probably in the first place. The West decided to close the skies in Russia not only for its own Boeing and Airbus, but also for domestic equipment. Critical imported components, which were previously difficult to obtain, are now completely prohibited from exporting to our country. Fortunately, Russia is not Iran, forced to buy second-hand aircraft through third parties, just to replenish stocks of scarce spare parts.




PD-8 on display in Novosibirsk. Source: gorsite.ru

The domestic aviation industry operates in full afterburner mode. This concerns, first of all, the development of aircraft engines - the most complex, critical and high-tech products. According to the Comprehensive Program for the Development of the Aviation Industry, adopted last summer, by 2030 it is necessary to build at least 5 aircraft engines for various purposes. The turning point should be 2024, in which about 600 serial engines should appear. One should only rejoice at such a pace - never before have such ambitious plans been set in the domestic industry.

Everyone knows the PD-14, which will become the base for a whole series of civil and military aircraft. The rush inevitably leads to some compromises. For example, due to lack of resources and time, the construction of serial PD-35, ultra-high thrust aircraft engines is being shifted. These engines with thrust up to 52 tons will appear several years later than planned. In many ways, this is a fair decision - given the chronic lack of testing and production facilities, it is not entirely rational to force the development of an engine for which only one Il-96-400 aircraft is provided. There is another user - the Russian-Chinese CR929, but the implementation of this project in metal is still a big question.




The gas generator for the PD-8 was built from PD-14, which greatly accelerated the development time. Source: Rostec

Now in the industry, according to Alexander Inozemtsev, Deputy General Director of UAC for the management of NPK Perm Motors, there is an acute shortage of middle-level specialists - technologists, workers, controllers. If the issue with engineers and designers is more or less resolved due to the close cooperation of production with the Perm Polytechnic University, then it is still tight with the rest of the specialists. This imposes special restrictions on the pace of product development, you have to choose the highest priority. For example, to focus primarily on projects for which aircraft are already ready.

On such as PD-8 - the youngest aircraft engine in the Permian family. This unit is waiting for at least three cars - the passenger SSJ-100 New, the dual-purpose amphibian Be-200 and the heavy Mi-26 helicopter. For the latter, they planned to adapt the PD-12 engine in version "B", but last year it was decided to remotorize the entire fleet of helicopters with PD-8V products. A logical decision, given that the PD-12 was not even built in a prototype version, although it was developed on the basis of the PD-14 gas generator. The Be-200 Altair is, of course, a piece product and will not even partially justify the cost of the PD-8 engine, but it turned out to be a good export product. We are talking about the Algerian contract, signed in 2021. The first amphibian with Arabic script on the fuselage in December 2022 left the hangars of the Taganrog Aviation Scientific and Technical Complex named after. Beriev. In total, it is planned to send four Be-200ChS aircraft to Africa. This is an impressive order, given that only 18 serial amphibians have been produced in Taganrog before. Only now the engines on the planes are Ukrainian D-436TP from the Zaporozhye office "Motor Sich", apparently from old stocks. According to media reports, the last motors came to Russia in a roundabout way back in 2018. The Russian-French SaM146 (the one created for the SSJ-100) can become an analogue, but its marine version has not yet been certified. And it won't be anymore.

As for the passenger SSJ-100, the situation distinctly smelled of disaster. By the beginning of 2023, 230 aircraft had been produced, most of which remained in Russia. Naturally, all boards have imported SaM146 engines, albeit with Russian equipment, and one day they will die. Well, if not in the air. For this fleet, a domestic engine was vital back in February 2022. By the way, ten new "Superjets" took off last year.

The importance of PD-8 for the country is evidenced by the fact that NPO Energomash JSC is involved in the production of the combustion chamber. By the way, this enterprise belongs to Roskosmos. Last year, rocket scientists from Proton-Perm Motors also joined the PD-8 program - they are building a test bench for the new engine, and are also involved in the development of control systems.

Dynamics of PD-8


The long-awaited Perm "eight" is a classic bypass turbojet engine that develops thrust up to 8 tons in afterburner. Under normal conditions - 7,5 tons. As already mentioned, the only analogue in the entire post-Soviet space was the D-436 from Motor Sich, but now there are big doubts that this product will be produced at all, not to mention export to Russia. The PD-8 can be called a hybrid created from the "cold" part of the SaM146 and the "hot" deformed gas generator from the PD-14. It was the French SaM146 gas generator that was considered the most problematic part of the Superjets. Now it is being replaced by a native Russian unit. In many ways, this is what makes it possible to speed up all the necessary procedures for testing and certification of an aircraft engine - most of the solutions have either already been tested in practice or are undergoing final tests. The donor of the PD-14 gas generator has already managed to ride Denis Manturov in the air on the pre-production MS-21-301.

The first operational PD-8 was also in the air, however, not under the wing of the SSJ-100-NEW, but as part of the Il-76LL flying laboratory. The first flight took place at the very end of last year, and, according to Rostec, during the tests

“The main operational data are recorded - rotational speed, pressure, temperature, as well as additional parameters necessary to confirm the design decisions made and ensure the safety of the operation of the power plant.”

Bench tests of the motor were completed back in May 2022, when the final understanding of the scale of international restrictions in aviation sphere. The PD-8 is a complete analogue of its predecessor, the Russian "Frenchman" SaM146, but in almost everything is a little better. The specific consumption has been reduced from 0,63 kg/kgf•h to 0,61 kg/kgf•h, while the thrust has been increased by 20-180 kgf, depending on the modification. The Russian engine fits into the engine nacelles of serial Superjets with virtually no modifications.






PD-8 under the wing of the Il-76LL flying laboratory. Source: Rostec

About twelve to fifteen months ahead of schedule, in the first decade of 2023, a pair of flight prototypes will depart from Perm for Komsomolsk-on-Amur to be mounted under the wings of the NEW series Superjets. The certificate of conformity is expected by the summer, and the final approval for flights is expected in December 2023. Considering that work on the PD-8 began in 2019, this is a surprisingly fast time even by global standards. We can only hope that the planned shift of the timing to the left will not remain on paper. Given the resources spent on speeding up the program, the chances of the PD-8 appearing under the wings of domestic regional aviation as early as next year are very high. At least twenty SSJ-100 NEW in serial execution should take to the skies in 2024. The situation with the adaptation of the motor to the needs of the Be-200 marine amphibian is more complicated. Here we need new materials that are resistant to aggressive salt water, as well as modification for new operating modes. Competences in this area remained in Zaporozhye, so domestic engineers will have to go through this path on their own. And it doesn't seem like an overwhelming task.
108 comments
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  1. +42
    7 January 2023 05: 16
    In general, our "Western partners" have pressed us against the wall, and there is no other way but forward. I hope that this encourages all interested parties to complete the work on time.
    1. +3
      7 January 2023 09: 54
      I think that whatever is done, everything is done for the better!
    2. +15
      7 January 2023 17: 52

      I think on the contrary, if there were no sanctions, it would be much easier to start mass production, now the example of the MS-21 shows what difficulties have arisen due to sanctions, meanwhile the Chinese have already launched their short-haul, albeit with American engines, into series, although development started later. At the same time, there is already news that they are slowly squeezing out our participation from the project of a long-haul joint project with the Chinese.
      1. +5
        7 January 2023 18: 01
        The collection of "news" is very visual. Of course, while there were no sanctions (especially such as now), it was necessary to develop and implement new developments. But in our "coordinate system" even then everything was not easy ...
        1. +5
          8 January 2023 03: 08
          Quote: WFP-1
          But in our "coordinate system" even then everything was not easy ...

          In "Our coordinate system" then everything was by permissive law - what "we" were allowed to do was done. More often this "right" was even prescriptive - what was ordered was carried out. And now there was a "mutiny on the ship" and you have to think for yourself ... but you forgot how. And most of the "system of power" categorically do not want to learn. For they are used to blowing steam into the whistle (in PR and false promises).
          The principle is to do it and only then boast, they are practically not aware of it.
          This is how it was possible to blow all the fanfare that by the end of the decade "we will build over 1000 new own aircraft ?? This is how you build them when you have not only not a single planned aircraft certified, but many of them have never been in the air did not rise?? And where does such a bravura "confidence" come from?
          Or because they do not plan to fulfill and, moreover, to be responsible for the words? They just do it according to the precepts of Dr. Goebels: "In order to believe in a lie ... it must be monstrous"? How is it possible to replace from 50 to 70% of components with OWN ones in two or three years, assemble experimental aircraft from them, test, bring, certify, launch mass production, debug all cooperation and the technical process of mass production and produce "over 2030 aircraft" by 1000 ?
          Even if their bravura reports are correct that "almost all components and components have already been localized and the first" entirely domestic "will soon be assembled, then they still need to be tested, brought up, rid of childhood illnesses, undergo certification ... and launch SERIAL PRODUCTION, which no one has dealt with us for over 20 years.
          Where to get STAFF?
          If we still cannot mass-produce the Il-76MD90A?
          1. 0
            15 January 2023 16: 39
            The main thing is to promise, and there either the donkey will die, or the padishah.
      2. +6
        7 January 2023 18: 43
        albeit with American engines
        and that says it all, because the engine is the most complicated part of the aircraft. Plus our non-metal fender. Although these shifts are not encouraging, of course, but "capitalism, my friend" Well, at least now the top has been awakened.
        1. +5
          7 January 2023 22: 08
          Bearing in mind their way in high-speed trains, I am sure that soon they will begin to localize everything (if they have not already started in parallel). In theory, we should have done the same with peregrine falcons and superjets. But for 20 years, words about the bad west have diverged from deeds - a selection of news headlines about ms-21 is more eloquent than all words.
          1. +4
            8 January 2023 14: 51
            Do effective managers give birth to something? ))))
      3. fiv
        -2
        7 January 2023 20: 49
        China will face exactly the same problems as the Russian Federation. Nuances, of course, will be. But there will be many more joint projects with us.
        1. +8
          8 January 2023 03: 37
          Quote: fiv
          there will be many more joint projects with us.

          This is if they are sent right now with engines and components, and they impose approximately the same sanctions. But that won't happen for a few more years, that's for sure. The US is too dependent on supplies from China ... a lot of things. And while we are pushing, they will not pile on China like that, although they will be running out.
          Then, of course, they will act as always ... But China does not seriously plan to cooperate with us and does not want to. And quite consciously squeezes us out of the CR-929 project. He has already received everything he needed from us.
          Well, our fellows - instead of using a ready-made and already developed project and preparing the production of the CR-929 at home and under our own index, with our own wing and our own engine, with maximum unification in terms of avionics and other components with a localized MS-21, counting not only on its domestic market (so far about 120 units), but also on the external one (the same Iran, Syria, Cuba, Venezuela, maybe Egypt, Algeria ... India) ... and realizing that China has the domestic market for 1200 such aircraft will not soon be able to saturate even the domestic market ... and the Angles and Saxons will put sticks in its wheels ... Well, how can they not see such an obvious prospect ??? After all, this aircraft can also be offered as a transport aircraft ... and this despite the fact that we hardly have more than 10 - 15 units per year. we will be able to collect ... HOW to arrange such nonsense at the same time ?? If at the same time it is also possible to supply wings and tails to cooperation with the Chinese? And engines (!!) if the Anglo-Saxons throw them! HERE is the main path to the full-blooded revival of domestic aviation for you !! Restore all competencies, with full (!) localization !! It will all pay off. Both internal and external demand . Both the MS-21 and the long-haul will be exported, there is no doubt, but we have a domestic market ... fellow in which - there the ENTIRE park must be changed to domestic ones. Our industry will only have to work for 15-20 years without unbending to fill the domestic market, not counting exports, and there already the next renewal of the fleet ... No? what Do not see ? No. Business sense not working?
          Or is there something else here?
          1. 0
            15 January 2023 00: 38
            Apparently, stealing is more convenient without the Chinese. And there is no need to share, and there is less chance that the truth will be revealed.
      4. +3
        7 January 2023 23: 59
        Well, here you add sanctions for 14 years with a wing, sanctions for turbojet engines and systems for 22 years, an embargo on Airbuses and Boeings. And initially, PD14 was supposed to take 5-10% of the sides, and now sharply 100%. So, if they meet in 2024, this will be a production feat.
        1. +6
          8 January 2023 04: 35
          Quote: Zaurbek
          And initially, PD14 was supposed to take 5-10% of the sides, and now sharply 100%. So, if they meet in 2024, this will be a production feat.

          But I don't understand this at all... belay Were the goats scared of the cabbage?? belay It's like under capitalism you can be afraid of an extended order ?? When the production of thousands (!!) engines is at stake! Only for the domestic market in the first order over 300 boards! And from Iran there are at least 300 more (they actually wanted to buy 300 pieces from Boeing and Airbus, but they were refused !! Or do you think Syria, Venezuela, Cuba and a number of others will refuse such an aircraft?
          And if you think HEAD? In order not to dispose of hundreds of billions in foreign bonds, but ... to create our own State Leasing Company and offer our aircraft on lease to the foreign market? After all, the money will not be stored in risky assets, but will WORK and bring profit to the budget. GOOD profit! Stimulating your own industry!
          After all, did you think of nuclear power plants around the world on lease or build your own property?
          And here Uma is not enough??
          Or with the same CR-929. Well, the Chinese do not want to give us half of the profits from their own production for their own market ... Woe?
          What if you think?
          The aircraft project is almost ready, the Chinese, in principle, are not against our supply of composite wings and empennage (if they plan to build 100+ aircraft per year, can you imagine the volume and cost of such supplies?
          Few ?
          We continue to think. angry (because anger is no longer enough)
          From some hangover, we decided that since we disagree with the Chinese on this, we are freezing the development of the PD-35. belay
          Arguments?
          But they say if we ever resume production of the Il-96-400 ... with a new composite wing ... with a new cabin (and what kind of old we need for a new plane, there we need to change the glazing to a modern one), new avionics. .. then we will need a completely different (!!) modification of the PD-35 - with a thrust no longer of 35 tons, of 38 tons.
          Hello. fool
          Thought...
          Wrote...
          You (USC) have an almost finished project of a MODERN aircraft - wide-body, long-haul, with an already DEVELOPED and calculated composite wing ... in the production of which cooperation with China is possible ... And instead of THIS, you take out an aircraft developed in the late 80s from a dusty cabinet ?? Which, again, needs to be REDESIGNED by more than half?
          Who needs to design a new composite wing from scratch?
          New engine with a capacity of 38t.s. , which you will not attach ANYWHERE else?
          The demand for which (IL-96) will be ONLY in the Russian Federation ??
          And how long will it all take?
          And how much will it cost MONEY?
          When is this money ALREADY spent on a much more promising aircraft?
          It's just kind of crazy.
          Just take and ORGANIZE the mass production of CR-929 UNDER YOUR OWN INDEX (for example, "DS-21" or Il-XXX) from YOURSELF.
          With its own composite wing.
          With its own PD-35 engine.
          Do you understand ??
          The domestic market in the Russian Federation from 120 such aircraft?
          What if you look into the future?
          And taking into account the release and its cargo version ?? Volga-Dnepr staggers its Ruslans and Il-76s, it was not possible to buy Boeings and Airbuses, and what is under sanctions does not fly by for a long time ...
          Yes, taking into account the growth of air travel in Russia? smile
          In-from. Domestic demand for 200 such machines is already looming. And that's just the domestic market.
          Are we looking at the outside?
          Iran. Yes
          He EDGE needs new planes. And not only the MS-21 and SSJ-100, for which he has already pre-ordered. He needs rangers too. And this is a big country.
          And a number of other states will certainly order such, especially if State Leasing is offered.
          And what do we get as a result?
          And we have at least a demand for 300+ of these aircraft of our (!) Production. And if we build them in 20 pcs. per year (I don’t even aim for more yet), this is work for 15 years without unbending, but taking into account reaching the design capacity ... for all 20 years. And during this time, other customers will be drawn.
          And with all that, we will be supplying China with wing and empennage kits, possibly engines, and possibly... titanium powertrain kits. Of course, he wants titanium himself ... but we have already set it up for ourselves, and we have the capacities, wow fellow what - Boeing and Airbus fully provided! They already are.
          What else ?
          PD-35 can be put on ... a new modification of the transport Il-76. Yes Yes . The new project can expand the fuselage and ... its carrying capacity in this configuration will increase to 70 tons, and efficiency fellow wai, what will be the efficiency for a transport aircraft. bully
          But in order for this to be so, it is necessary not only to continue working on the PD-35, to continue working with the Chinese, agreeing (!) to their conditions, but also putting forward their own ... They will like them.
          AND WORK!! First of all - Head.
          1. 0
            8 January 2023 18: 10
            It's simple - there is no production capacity. Physically, the equipment cannot be produced in such terms. And capitalism initially provides for a partial surplus of production and free movement of capital, in this case, the ability to quickly rent / buy a machine park and people capable of working for nothing. And this is not
            1. +1
              8 January 2023 23: 54
              Quote: kamakama
              ... And capitalism initially provides for a partial surplus of production and free movement of capital ...

              Capitalism initially provides for the robbery of all who are weaker, banditry, racketeering, and only then an attempt to agree on a joint profit, without giving up the opportunity to devour a partner, at the first opportunity.
              Cut off his angel wings, in your imagination, and remove the halo from him too. It is always a hungry wolf.
              1. -1
                10 January 2023 07: 23
                Bratkov Oleg
                Capitalism initially provides for the robbery of all who are weaker, banditry, racketeering

                Capitalism involves making money by investing in the creation of new companies and factories, to increase capital, although it is not averse to making money on cheap labor. In particular, Musk invested capital in Tesla, in SpaceX and Starlink, creating 3 companies from scratch, this is capitalism. Also, China has created a dozen corporations from scratch.
            2. 0
              9 January 2023 05: 54
              Quote: kamakama
              It's simple - there is no production capacity.

              Well, let's talk about power.
              Now there is a complete localization of the production of MS-21 and Superjet - from avionics to the entire spectrum of on-board systems. And this is industrial cooperation and those same production facilities. and in order for these capacities to exist, work and develop, they need a long-term load for the future. That is, our own WORKING aviation industry. All over the spectrum. Therefore, our own production with maximum / full localization of the new long-haul aircraft will only be in our vein - this is an additional load for aviation industry enterprises across the entire line of industrial cooperation.
              And our own production of heavy and super-heavy transport aircraft will also benefit our aviation industry. And loading the capacities of aircraft engine plants, and Avisma with their aviation titanium, and all other enterprises along cooperative chains.
              We have all the main core competencies and production :
              - Engine building,
              - the most modern production of aviation titanium in FINISHED products (power set, chassis),
              - there are aircraft factories that have survived from the times of the USSR in Ulyanovsk, Voronezh, Kazan.
              - there are projects ready for implementation ("Superjet-rus", MS-21 and Russian-Chinese CR-929),
              - there are promising projects of transport and military transport aircraft,
              - there is a HUGE demand for all types of this aircraft both in our own domestic market and in the markets of our friendly countries (which are in dire need of updating their fleets).
              - there is a joint project with China.
              About China.
              China wants to do everything itself, but it still doesn’t know how to do much in the aircraft industry. But he does not want to share profits from deliveries to his domestic market. But he is ready to receive wings and plumage, and possibly engines, through cooperation from the Russian Federation.
              That's okay. If the Chinese plan to build 100 long rangers a year, these are 100 sets of wings and plumage, these are 250-300 engines per year (!!!), and if they manage to agree on the supply of aviation titanium (even if not the entire spectrum - to load our own capacities ) ... That's okay - let us not get our share of the profits from the domestic market of China, but only on deliveries within the framework of industrial cooperation, it will be just huge amounts of profit for our aviation industry and the state. budget . And at the same time, we will be able to organize mass production of the same long-range vehicles at home - both for the domestic market and for export. And since our domestic market is 8-10 times smaller than the Chinese one, it means that we will be able to saturate our own market sooner and earlier to start export deliveries. At the same time (possibly) relying on industrial cooperation with China in this project.

              Quote: kamakama
              no production capacity

              Some of them already exist. And they can be developed only based on their own needs and the domestic market - in the first place. This demand exists.
              So what's the question?
              Quote: kamakama
              Physically, the equipment cannot be produced in such terms.

              And what equipment are we talking about?
              Assembly lines for the MS-21 have long been ready for launch.
              "Superjet" has long been in mass production.
              The Russian-Chinese long-range project is a joint one. Bye . I hope that this will be the case, but we will build each at our own capacities. But when completing the assembly and production facilities for it, again, cooperation with China. We simply duplicate production for our own volumes.
              And that’s it.
              Money?
              Russia has them - SHAFT! Constant budget surplus with sterilization of "reserves" in bonds of foreign states. It's just that now these funds will go to lending to their own economy. State lending. Such investments are much more reliable and profitable than bond scams.
              Quote: kamakama
              free movement of capital

              This is not necessary. Capital must move, but remain under control. And domestic capital must "move" / circulate in its own economy. New investments will create new industries, new industries will saturate the market and the budget with new revenues, new jobs in such / such industries will raise the standard of living and domestic consumption, increased domestic consumption will stimulate the development of domestic Industry, Agriculture and the service sector.
              That's synergy for you.
              And it's all about capitalism.
              Quote: kamakama
              /buy machine park and people,

              Part of the machine park can be produced at home (and this is already being done) ... I would like to produce everything at home, but this is unrealistic ... But where are you going to buy ... "people capable of working" ?? What markets? Such specialists need to be grown at home, and this is the education system, secondary and higher schools and ... the demand for aviation industry specialists in the DOMESTIC market. Demand in the labor market is expanding production. And when the domestic demand for aircraft is huge, there are projects and production capacities, then everything depends on the State Will, Financing and Quality Management. But Will is above all.
              1. +1
                9 January 2023 09: 20
                There is simply no production capacity, most of the equipment at our Western-made factories, even in the defense industry, as an example, Shoigu was recently at Kalashnikov, where they simply pasted over the name of the Japanese machine. Of course, not all equipment is foreign, there are successes in import substitution, but they concern only the most elementary machine tools, and something more complicated like an OC, for example, is no longer ours, or from ours there is only a building with a nameplate, so a situation arises when "the mountain cannot give birth to a mouse" because of such bottlenecks, the elimination of which will take a couple of decades and several oil and gas "pods" of Russia.
                Even the Chinese are dependent and buy for themselves, if not entirely machines, then Western components (controllers, inverters, PLCs, etc.), well, in general, the quality of their machines leaves much to be desired, they are suitable for undemanding production.
                Of course, there is an option to try to replace the entire necessary chain of imports, it is possible, but all this takes time and money. Those. the first results will be possible at best in 10 years, while against the backdrop of how much Western companies invest in R&D, our capabilities will be zilch, without access to Western markets, this is just another subsidized production with no chance of payback, as can be seen in the example of the Permskiye motors", where a similar situation arises:
                1. 0
                  15 January 2023 00: 51
                  Here, at least someone! In our country, the production of means of production lies on its side. And on the hooves, I'm afraid, will not rise. Like that horse after a hungry winter. Only on the living quarters and the road. Instrumentation lies on its side. microelectronics too. Fundamental science, applied research... it takes a long time to explain. I can only give a reference to the number of patents and publications in journals. In short, IMHO, we live what is left of our ancestors.
                  The crowd is gloomy and soon forgotten
                  We will pass over the world without noise and trace,
                  Throwing not a fertile thought for centuries,
                  Not a genius of work begun.
                  And our dust, with the rigor of a judge and a citizen,
                  A descendant will be insulted by a contemptuous verse,
                  Taunting the bitterly deceived son
                  Over the squandered father.
          2. 0
            9 January 2023 10: 25
            But I don’t understand this at all ... belay The goats were scared of the cabbage ?? belay It's like under capitalism you can be afraid of an extended order?? When the production of thousands (!!) engines is at stake!

            There is no need to be afraid, you need to physically be able to place an order 10 times more ....... serially with the same quality. And this:
            1. more areas/factories
            2. More trained people
            3. More sanctions equipment
            4. Financing, etc.


            Nine women will not give birth to one child in 1 month. Literally until the age of 22, the main customers ordered firmly the MC21 with the PW-1100. With PD-8 - this is completely predictable, it was just an option, after the development of PD14. They just changed priorities.
  2. +17
    7 January 2023 05: 21
    did not believe his eyes. we have to the left! Wow.
    1. -10
      7 January 2023 11: 05
      We will give all records our sonorous names like steel ...
      And from 14 g, something was not clear with the sanctions?
      To the left of 26 or 28? And from 14 g how much to the right?
      Song of Manturov. Mantras will heal us. Also, deer antlers on the windshield of aircraft need to be certified ... by the 30th year.
      The process with horns is more complicated than it seems and requires "working out"...
      About ms 21?
      1. 0
        8 January 2023 23: 59
        Quote: antivirus
        ...
        And from 14 g, something was not clear with the sanctions?
        ...

        So those who destroyed the USSR took the industry into their own hands. And they hope, like aristocrats under the tsar-priest, to tear taxes from the population, and squander it all in Paris. And the production is all cunningly redone, the key elements are not produced here, these gentlemen were not allowed to attend balls in Paris until they destroyed a similar production here. They tried their best. But to break, not to build ...
    2. +8
      7 January 2023 11: 12
      One should only rejoice at such a pace - never before have such ambitious plans been set in the domestic industry. Come on! They made bigger plans. These plans have shifted to the left. Only plans. Let's wait and if in 2024 they really give out 600 engines, then we will rejoice.
      1. +7
        7 January 2023 11: 52
        Quote from: Derbes19
        Let's wait and if in 2024 they really give out 600 engines, then we will rejoice.

        Effective offer.
        Wait.
        It is clear with the stands, there were tests. But flight tests in fact have not yet been. Flight launch, throttle response, switching on and stability of the afterburner, etc., are worked out in flying laboratories. In this case, there was only one flight with one engine. December 26 Kochkarev from LII im. M.M. Gromov lifted the Il-76LL into the air. PD-8 in this flight was launched only in idle mode. So there's still a lot of work to be done. And it will be possible to talk about some shifts only after at least passing the certification.
        1. nks
          +2
          8 January 2023 13: 13
          developing thrust up to 8 tons in afterburner

          Quote from: skeptick2
          inclusion and stability of the afterburner

          oh, hand! What afterburner - what are you talking about?
      2. +1
        7 January 2023 13: 15
        Derbes19. Russia was shifted to the left, that is, to the right, so much so that everything turned out to the left and to the left, but no further. Nothing to measure.
      3. +2
        8 January 2023 13: 58
        In their place, I would not publish any plans at all, only report what happened. Well, they don’t know how, they can’t plan anything here, because in order to plan something, you need to be able to influence the situation, circumstances, in the end, you need to take some actions to implement plans, and not just shift plans into the future. In the financial sector, planning has long been replaced by forecasting (the forecast didn’t come true - well, it’s nobody’s fault, it’s just that I couldn’t, I couldn’t), I even wonder why they didn’t do the same in industry. Although, if no one bears responsibility for anything anyway, then it really doesn’t matter what you call it.
    3. +4
      7 January 2023 12: 51
      This is how the author sees it. And how it will turn out - we'll see. Moreover, there are enough inaccuracies in the article. No PD-8 for the MI-26 will happen in principle - the thrust is 8 tons versus 11,5 tons for the D-136, which is initially. We are talking about development using the technologies of the hot part of the PD-8, you need to get a thrust of 11-12 tons, otherwise this bird will not lift 20 tons close. The PD-8 itself will completely receive serial production - 40-50 engines per year for 2 models completely.
      1. +7
        7 January 2023 18: 42
        Did you confuse it with power? Firstly, the engine thrust for a helicopter is completely out of place, because the thrust is created by the propellers and here the engine power is more important. The D-136 does not have a thrust of 11500 kg, but a power of 11500 hp. You yourself understand that the maximum take-off weight of a helicopter is 56 tons, and it takes off on propellers, so your 23 "tons of thrust" do not roll here. I did not find information on the power of the PD-8, which is quite natural. It will appear when a turboshaft version is made from the PD-8.
        1. 0
          7 January 2023 23: 53
          in the TVD variant, the low-pressure low-pressure turbine, which converts the jet thrust of the gas jet into rotational power, will rotate the gearbox and the main rotor of the helicopter in place of the low-pressure low-pressure compressor (fan), so the helicopter D-36 was made from D-136.
    4. 0
      7 January 2023 16: 18
      the pace of development of the PD-8 is shifting to the left
      .

      If rates are shifting to the left, does it mean they are declining? Unlike timing. More precisely it is necessary to be in terms.
    5. 0
      7 January 2023 17: 41
      Well, crosses, thank heavens, so far only the Armed Forces of Ukraine draws on tanks. They think that the Balkenkreuz will turn them into the Teutonic Knights of the XNUMXth century.
  3. +60
    7 January 2023 05: 34
    as for the complaints about the lack of middle-level specialists ... I recommend that responsible persons still try to pay people a good salary corresponding to the level of complexity and responsibility of the work they perform, and not rely on the enthusiasm of workers for food ..
    1. +30
      7 January 2023 07: 14
      yeah, it's funny the average salary is considered, hard workers get 25, the driver's hand is 400, the average is good, what really ...
      1. +4
        7 January 2023 21: 26
        In my former native Central Research Institute "Elektropribor" at a pilot plant, the average salary of a worker-machine operator is 100 thousand, and for a production manager - 120.
      2. +3
        7 January 2023 21: 29
        For me, the term "hard worker" means an assistant, a worker without qualifications, specialists must be treated with respect.
    2. +25
      7 January 2023 07: 21
      Quote: Krilion
      as for complaints about the lack of mid-level specialists ... I recommend that responsible persons still try pay people good wages

      Our bosses prefer to charge themselves a huge salary, and the rest - what will remain in the payroll after that. And then complain about the fact that they say there are not enough specialists!

      But under capitalism there is no shortage. Everything is determined by the price. Every whim for your money. For example, there are not enough janitors. Well, pay the janitors at least a modest Russian average salary. Then there will be no end to the wipers for sure!

      Not enough engineers - pay them. Make a completely free higher education. Under socialism (in the USSR) there was an excess of engineers! And our unfortunate capitalists have a disadvantage. Lack of brains, with an excess of greed and the absence of any morality!
      1. +8
        7 January 2023 09: 18
        Not enough engineers - pay them. Make a completely free higher education.
        What a catch here, in order to pay, there will not be enough income from oil and gas .. for engineers, of course .. Other incomes are needed here, except that "Moskvich" with a Chinese face will conquer world markets .. smile
        1. +5
          7 January 2023 11: 17
          Enough. Engineers develop products that make money. It is thanks to engineers that technology develops.
          1. +7
            7 January 2023 16: 45
            Before that, the principle “why do we need engineers, we have a gas pipe, we will buy everything” worked for us. Well, they sat on their pipe ...
      2. +4
        7 January 2023 16: 31
        I remember two of my bosses once sat on headhunters and studied how much competitors would offer me and my colleagues and how much we should pay so as not to run away.
    3. +6
      7 January 2023 11: 40
      Quote: Krilion
      responsible persons still try to pay people a good salary, corresponding to the level of complexity and responsibility of the work they perform, and not rely on the enthusiasm of workers for food ..

      Remember, a capitalist will never pay more than he can. It can only be forced to pay more by unionization and competition.
      1. +7
        7 January 2023 17: 39
        The capitalist will pay so much that less is impossible.
  4. -5
    7 January 2023 05: 48
    That's how we know how to be baptized when the thunder struck.
    The Russian marine industry revived, revived and even started working. Well, for now, only in Perm. Yes, and where else?
    Traditions .... The hard-working Urals, being always puzzled by the Center, being always underfed and not favored by the Center - both under the tsars and under the Bolsheviks-communists - the laboring Urals can and knows how to get together and work.
    Here are the first results on PD-8.
    Everything is going well enough. Everything according to the usual formula -
    hype.
    Confusion.
    Punishment of the innocent.
    Rewarding the uninvolved.
    The pace of work is such that the components of this formula this time do not alternate, but go side by side.
    1. +2
      7 January 2023 07: 22
      The turning point should be 2024, in which about 600 serial engines should appear.

      Glory to promises, debts and debtors!
      Hooray! Hooray! Hooray!
  5. +13
    7 January 2023 06: 03
    . Competences in this area remained in Zaporozhye, so domestic engineers will have to go through this path on their own. And it doesn't seem like an overwhelming task.

    Let me remind you that, according to the Constitution of the Russian Federation, the Zaporozhye region has been an integral part of our Fatherland since 2022.
    So …. lol there are no impossible tasks!
    1. Qas
      +4
      7 January 2023 07: 38
      And this very joyful fact automatically returned competencies (if you know what it is) in engine building in the Russian Federation?
      1. +3
        7 January 2023 08: 53
        Quote: Qas
        And this very joyful fact automatically returned competencies (if you know what it is) in engine building in the Russian Federation?

        When returning Zaporozhye, he will return - motor-sich, which has those competencies. Worse, after the return of Zaporozhye, funding from Perm will be cut ...
        1. +11
          7 January 2023 11: 37
          Have the Chinese officially abandoned the dream of Motor Sich, or will we figure it out later? what
          1. 0
            7 January 2023 16: 33
            And here is what they will offer and whether the Turks will offer more. And the fact that we are all being held by the testicles, we can also hold! True, I don’t think that someone will leave us the whole enterprise
        2. +2
          7 January 2023 19: 52
          It is still unknown what and who will remain from Motor Sich.
  6. -4
    7 January 2023 06: 48
    Quote: Popenko
    In general, our "Western partners" have pressed us against the wall, and there is no other way but forward. I hope that this encourages all interested parties to complete the work on time.

    now the buildup will pass, and everything should go in the normal way ... unless, of course, again, someone puts a spoke in the wheels ....
    1. +10
      7 January 2023 08: 28
      Quote: Alex242
      unless of course again, someone puts a spoke in the wheels ..

      Nobody puts sticks in our wheels better than ourselves. We create difficulties and overcome them confidently. Old Russian fun, unfortunately
  7. 0
    7 January 2023 06: 49
    Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
    . Competences in this area remained in Zaporozhye, so domestic engineers will have to go through this path on their own. And it doesn't seem like an overwhelming task.

    Let me remind you that, according to the Constitution of the Russian Federation, the Zaporozhye region has been an integral part of our Fatherland since 2022.
    So …. lol there are no impossible tasks!

    you can think about this only after the NWO and after the restoration of the regions (new since 2022)
  8. +4
    7 January 2023 06: 52
    In this story, a lot now depends on how quickly it will be possible to bring and start producing PD-14
  9. Eug
    +4
    7 January 2023 06: 56
    As far as I understand, the D-436 for the Algerian Be-200 could have been officially supplied by Ukraine, as was the case with the Zorya-Mashproekt engines for Indian ships being built in Russia.
  10. +5
    7 January 2023 07: 01
    Need will make the brain work. I made this conclusion for myself 30 years ago)
  11. 0
    7 January 2023 07: 38
    developing thrust up to 8 tons in afterburner
    this engine does not have afterburner, there is a takeoff mode
  12. +11
    7 January 2023 08: 21
    The D-436 is the same joint development as the SaM146, only in one case Russian-Ukrainian, and in the other French-Russian, but its production and development in Russia was abandoned in 2014, before that 10 years "picking in the nose", as and from the An-70 the rights to which we also had equal rights with Ukraine, and the PD-8 is a clear example of the effect of a roasted rooster and thunder. But it looks like a fairly good example, although it was possible to get what you were looking for much earlier and with less strain.
    But be that as it may, the news is good!
    1. -2
      7 January 2023 17: 59
      Quote: mark1
      about its production and development in Russia was abandoned in 2014, before that 10 years "picking in the nose", as well as from the An-70, the rights to which we and Ukraine also had equally
      The An-70 was abandoned, because they did not do what was needed: they ordered a medium transport aircraft, but built a heavy one. And we had a heavy one - IL-76.
      1. 0
        8 January 2023 20: 03
        Well, what are we minus? What's wrong?
        And here is the text so that the administration missed it.
      2. 0
        9 January 2023 12: 36
        Yes. Only IL-76 we no longer produced. EMNIP. The Tashkent factory died a little, but the new ones .... Until now, in patrimonial writhing .... And the 70th was supposed to replace the An-12 .....
        Like, it also had to work from the ground ....
        I'm not talking about the minuses, because I did not put it)). Yes, think out loud. And according to rumors))), they refused not only because it is heavy ..... Everyone was talking there wink
  13. +1
    7 January 2023 08: 39
    What's so amazing about that? The certification service was given a pendel in the ass (recently, information slipped that one of the leaders of the Federal Air Transport Agency was imprisoned for taking a bribe). The engine itself is ready, the question is to obtain flight certificates. For this, 3 engines have already been manufactured (this is not counting those that were factory tested). Now they are preparing engines for installation directly on board.
    1. +13
      7 January 2023 08: 56
      Well, he's not that ready.
      Rather, not ready at all.
      We need a huge cycle of tests on the ground and on the wing. Then (rather, in parallel) fine-tuning and treatment of "childhood diseases".
      And plus - testing for a resource. Well, for starters, a serial sample should have at least a hundred hours.
      But in general, the progress in creation is huge, if not stunning.
      I know people who work for him.
      They work hard. Just don't hurt them with money.
      We have everything right now, including ZP- "within the framework of the contract."
  14. +13
    7 January 2023 09: 37
    The plant requires mid-level specialists - technologists, workers, controllers. Requirements work experience of 3 years, secondary specialized education - salary 21.000 rubles!!! GO TO ...!!!!!!!
  15. +3
    7 January 2023 10: 16
    On the one hand, it's good.
    on the other hand, they again paint and divide the skin of an unkilled bear
  16. +1
    7 January 2023 11: 05
    PD35 is needed yesterday for the gas industry, these are the very turbines that fail and there is nothing to replace.
  17. +3
    7 January 2023 11: 50
    NWO was originally planned incorrectly. It was necessary to take industrial centers with high-tech industries (Kharkov, Krivoy Rog, Nikolaev, Dnepropetrovsk), at the same time encircling and cutting off the supply of the Donbass group. And the troops had to be used at least three times more. All these obvious conclusions. For informed people, they should have been obvious. It was necessary to provoke the Ukrainian offensive, then declare a patriotic war, mobilize and carry out the operation in a completely different political atmosphere. Now we will have to do the same thing, only with much greater efforts for which 300000 mobilized will not be enough for sure, we still need at least the same amount to control the occupied territories and protect supply routes.
  18. TIR
    0
    7 January 2023 12: 28
    I would also like to know how reliable they are and the cost of their operation.
  19. +3
    7 January 2023 12: 34
    SaM146 was originally poor. And no conclusions of our international experts had any effect. As proof, we can cite the fact that the first SSJ-100 was waiting for the engine to start when rolling out for more than 40 minutes.
    If the gas generator was developed and made by the French, then everything else is by us. Most likely, this is why we so easily adapted the new gas generator PD-8 to the rest of the engine components.
    What was useful from the French I do not presume to judge. But we could not make control electronics without their participation. Therefore, the experience with SaM146 was not completely useless. True, they lost a lot of time fine-tuning this motor. For our money.
    Well. During the development of SaM146, Saturn took responsibility, re-equipped production and was able to make PD-14. Other enterprises were not ready to create this family. Muscovites, Pitertsy and Samartsy are busy with their engines. Therefore, we can only thank them for their work. But not all engine lines are made by Saturn. Therefore, he needs not to pull the blanket over himself, but to help with the development of other enterprises.
    1. +1
      7 January 2023 16: 36
      Initially, the idea of ​​​​the joint SaM146, as well as other imported superjet stuffing, was that the bourgeoisie would contribute to the admission of this aircraft to the international market, since "honest and unbiased" international certification and other permits for "alien" to the West are very conditional, and usually last exactly as long how much it takes for your products to become morally obsolete. Approximately the same as they hoped for the development of our high-tech enterprises, transferring their blocks of shares for a nominal fee to their competitors from the west. The enterprises, of course, were destroyed, and the French made the hot part for us "conditionally fit" for our money, with a ban on climbing into it on our own, but only for French specialists. And the French organized the terms of repair, ensuring the uncompetitiveness of the superjet. And there is no direct confrontation (joint venture!), And the Russians spent money and time, and the plane is uncompetitive, and the Russians have not created their own or with bona fide partners. In the West, working with competitors has been honed for centuries. So far, apart from raiding and arson, nothing comes to our minds.
    2. nks
      +2
      8 January 2023 13: 20
      Quote: B-15
      As proof, we can cite the fact that the first SSJ-100 was waiting for the engine to start when rolling out for more than 40 minutes.


      This can prove only one thing - most of the authors and commentators on this site are completely incompetent in the topics discussed. On the roll-out, the engines usually do not start, and in this case there was no such start-up and was not planned.

      Quote: B-15
      Saturn took responsibility, re-equipped production and was able to make the PD-14.

      Saturn is not a general contractor under PD-14/8. Well, check out at least the basic facts before scribbling comments.

      And the SaM146 is an excellent engine, which largely determined the competitive advantages of the SSJ. By the way,
      PowerJet provided high-quality service support, unlike GSS.
  20. +2
    7 January 2023 12: 53
    Quote: mark1
    D-436 is the same joint development as SaM146, only in one case Russian-Ukrainian

    Oh, how many wonderful discoveries the spirit of enlightenment prepares for us)
    1. 0
      7 January 2023 19: 10
      Cooking, cooking ... especially if you get into the topic a little.)
      1. +3
        7 January 2023 20: 56
        From Ufa, the D-436 has esu and Omsk units, and the Zaporozhye gas generator and fan
  21. 0
    7 January 2023 15: 10
    "We can only hope that the planned shift of the timing to the left does not remain on paper." That's it! That's it! Let's hope and wait! hi good
  22. +11
    7 January 2023 15: 48
    Fortunately, Russia is not Iran, forced to buy second-hand aircraft through third parties

    Sorry, but in light of recent events with the UAV, the statement is rather cynical.
    In general, according to the article - alas, but, most likely, Manilovism.
    Has our attitude towards technical professions changed in our country? Has the vocational education system been revived and has been bearing fruit for ten years now? Crowds of young people stand in line at factories, ready to learn the professions of engineers and workers?
    Not? Then where do all these dreams come from? For 30 years, every year we have been losing our status as an advanced technological power more and more, and here, having also lost access to many, without exaggeration, critical components and technologies, are we suddenly waiting for some kind of breakthrough? Are you seriously?
    Does anyone else really hope that an order from a very respected leader or even a sack allocated by the state (what a sack - even a wagon) of money in itself can become the magic wand of the Fairy Godmother and immediately cancel all those destructive processes that have been going on for so many years and even decades destroyed our industry?
    I understand the New Year, but it's time to stop believing in Santa Claus.
  23. 0
    7 January 2023 16: 52
    pd-35 will have a thrust of 35 tons. not 50.
    1. +1
      7 January 2023 23: 12
      Yes, they swung 50 tons. We don’t even have projectors for such aircraft, you can put it on oblique ones.
  24. 0
    7 January 2023 18: 54
    it is necessary to entrust the turchak - and under the strict control of the party, the engine will be brought to the end of the year,
  25. +1
    7 January 2023 19: 00
    I can’t even believe, for once, a shift to the left. Apparently, somewhere the "effective" ones were underdeveloped.
    1. +1
      7 January 2023 19: 57
      You don't even have to worry about this. Will finalize. There is still time, but they know how to "work". Hope I'm wrong. We will see.
  26. 0
    7 January 2023 22: 58
    Well, now I hope everyone understands that such a huge country as Russia is obliged to produce and develop everything itself?!
    I wonder where Serdyukov is now ...
    1. +1
      8 January 2023 15: 27
      I wonder where Serdyukov is now ...

      On May 8, 2019, he was elected Chairman of the Board of Directors of the UAC, under his leadership, a reform of the country's aviation industry is being prepared.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  27. +1
    7 January 2023 23: 11
    Interestingly, if it is possible to make a pd8v, then a theater with a propeller can be sawn?
  28. 0
    7 January 2023 23: 28
    Everything is quite positive, but there is an example of a raw TV7-117-ST, which ruined the IL-112 a year and a half ago, and which was never brought to mind. The main thing is to make a reliable engine and correct childhood illnesses, we still have to fly on them.
    1. +1
      8 January 2023 00: 04
      For some reason, turbojet manufacturers are doing better than theater manufacturers. By the way, the theater of operations on the Mi6 was created on the basis of an aircraft theater of operations, and now they decided to make it from PD8. Weird.
  29. 0
    7 January 2023 23: 47
    Unexpectedly, according to the author, that PD-8 is a symbiosis of PD-14 and SM146. If so, then the remotorization of the existing Superjet fleet is becoming a reality.
    1. 0
      8 January 2023 00: 01
      They announced that they would not remotorize. Manturov said that we can ensure the life cycle of CAM146 ourselves
  30. -2
    8 January 2023 02: 51
    Quote: Mitroha
    Quote: Alex242
    unless of course again, someone puts a spoke in the wheels ..

    Nobody puts sticks in our wheels better than ourselves. We create difficulties and overcome them confidently. Old Russian fun, unfortunately

    well, yes, lobbying in favor of our current enemies, I think now it can be punished more severely .....
  31. -1
    8 January 2023 05: 47
    If you read the author’s predictions about the SSJ100, then you can’t fly on them because the engines break down on the go. Afftor to the ward,✓6 let him write his notes there.
  32. +5
    8 January 2023 06: 25
    The most interesting thing is that the bulk of the organisms responsible for the total destruction of the local aviation industry are now in charge of the processes. And one telegram lover (who taxied at 08-12) does not choose words in his statements at all, trying to catch his hype on a wave of patriotism and pretends to be a champion of the interests of all Russians, all over the world. And you say...
  33. +6
    8 January 2023 12: 25
    I read the article "They do not have enough middle-level specialists" ...... I looked at the vacancies of "Perm Motors" ... Salary from 25 to 35 tr. Who's going??? I would swear, but it is forbidden
  34. 0
    8 January 2023 13: 06
    Then it will be necessary to create a hybrid of PD engines and products 30 - there will be engines for high-speed transport aircraft. Only in 5 years, and then it will be too late.
  35. +2
    8 January 2023 13: 09
    This has never happened, and here again ...
  36. -1
    8 January 2023 16: 26
    As I understood from the article on PD 8, they screwed the back from the old engine and things went
  37. 0
    8 January 2023 18: 08
    Oh, fortunately, the "effective managers" did not have time to completely ruin our industry! But even "in the fat zero", under Putin, they just abandoned the domestic Il and Tu and created the "globalist" Superjet. Now, as usual, in an emergency mode, you have to make up for the lost decades ... But China - well done, did not wait for favors from the West and make the most of its own!
  38. +2
    8 January 2023 23: 15
    And once, long ago in the "backward USSR", where they only knew how to make galoshes, there were such wonderful schools of engine building .... but you need to understand something like that, something else
  39. 0
    8 January 2023 23: 59
    The lead developer and integrator of PD-8 is Rybinsk.
  40. 0
    9 January 2023 10: 50
    We have no Lost Profit indicator in the Government’s indicators, hence the lack of results
    1. 0
      17 January 2023 08: 00
      We have no Lost Profit indicator in the Government’s indicators, hence the lack of results
      Of course missing. The "dEffective" concept of under-stolen does not exist. Or are you talking about something else? Other than that they are of little interest.
  41. +1
    9 January 2023 15: 04
    Competences in this area remained in Zaporozhye, so domestic engineers will have to go through this path on their own.

    And the factory. Klimov, the engine, which was transferred there for outsourcing, was appointed to lead a diver. He was well versed in sea water. So what's the problem?
  42. 0
    13 January 2023 06: 54
    Competencies in this area

    Adoration of the West.
    The word of knowledge, skills, abilities do not suit you?
    1. 0
      17 January 2023 08: 15
      Of course it doesn't fit. Knowledge, skills, abilities, this is for professionals. And managers have just competencies, in verbiage.
  43. 0
    13 January 2023 06: 56
    Quote: Sergey28
    responsible for the total destruction of the local aviation industry

    The idea of ​​responsibility is recognized in the Russian Federation as extremism.
    And its to you as an example, for example.
  44. 0
    14 January 2023 21: 46
    Quote: bayard
    And where does such a bravura "confidence" come from?
    Or because they do not plan to fulfill and, moreover, to be responsible for the words?

    From the parable of Khoja Nasreddin:
    “And don’t mourn my head, because in twenty years one of us will surely die - either I, or the emir, or this donkey” (c)