Towed artillery: a new life in the format of wheeled self-propelled guns

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Towed artillery: a new life in the format of wheeled self-propelled guns


outdated concept


The special military operation (SVO) conducted by Russia in Ukraine clearly revealed the fact that towed artillery in our time is an easy target for enemy counter-battery weapons - just look at the number of American M-777 howitzers or “three axes” destroyed on Ukrainian soil . And this despite the fact that Russian means of counter-battery combat are clearly inferior to similar systems of Western countries, generously provided to the Armed Forces of Ukraine (AFU).




The M-777 often becomes a victim of a counter-battery fight; it’s impossible to say so about self-propelled guns or Himars wheeled MLRS. Image by wikipedia.org

At the same time, the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation (RF Armed Forces) have a lot of towed artillery systems, and these are not only outdated models, which include 122-mm D-30 howitzers or 152-mm D-20 howitzers, but also much more modern ones, such as 2A65 "Msta-B" or 2A36 "Hyacinth-B".


Howitzers D-20 (left) and D-30 (right). Image by wikipedia.org


152-mm howitzer "Msta-B" (left) and 152-mm gun 2A36 "Hyacinth-B" (right). Image by wikipedia.org

You can also mention the completely modern 120-mm gun 2B16 "Nona-K", although it does not have tactical and technical characteristics comparable to its 152-mm brothers, but it is light and maneuverable. However, there are not so many 2B16 Nona-K guns in the troops.


120-mm gun 2B16 "Nona-K". Image by wikipedia.org

The second factor was the high efficiency of wheeled vehicles, including HIMARS multiple launch rocket systems (MLRS), which are more likely short-range high-precision tactical missile systems. HIMARS MLRS and wheeled self-propelled artillery mounts (SAUs), for example, the French Caesar self-propelled guns, operate in the “fire-and-run” mode, when immediately after shooting one or two precision-guided munitions, the combat vehicle quickly collapses and changes positions.


MLRS M142 HIMARS and self-propelled guns Caesar. Image by wikipedia.org

With towed artillery, this tactic cannot be implemented - the deployment / collapse time will be an order of magnitude higher, and the larger the caliber, the more massive the gun, the more difficult it is for calculations to manage it.


Transportation of 152-mm guns 2A36 "Hyacinth-B". Image by wikipedia.org

So what is the road for towed artillery systems to long-term storage warehouses? Use in rare cases for the defense of some hills from bearded "spirits" who do not have the means of counter-battery combat (not yet possessing)?

By no means, there are other options for the development of the situation - this is the manufacture of new wheeled self-propelled guns based on towed artillery systems.

Of course, potentially towed guns and howitzers can also be installed on a tracked chassis, but there are such self-propelled guns in Russia, they are mass-produced, and they are quite perfect, but our army does not yet have wheeled self-propelled guns. It is characteristic that the armed forces of the USSR did not realize the potential of this type of weapons, curtailing the development of a promising wheeled 152-mm self-propelled guns 2S21 "Msta-K".


SAU 2S21 "Msta-K" based on KrAZ-CHR-3130. Image by wikipedia.org

In this case, the military-industrial complex (MIC) of Ukraine, which was so much underestimated before the start of the war, released a rather interesting combat vehicle - a wheeled self-propelled gun 2S22 "Bogdan".

Enemy Experience


It is believed that the development of the Ukrainian self-propelled guns 2S22 "Bogdan" caliber 155 mm was completed in 2018. According to unconfirmed reports, the firing range of the Bogdan self-propelled guns reaches 42 km - with conventional shells and 52 km - with the use of active-reactive ammunition. The ammunition load is 20 shells, of which 6 units are placed in the automatic charging system - however, the automatic charging system was not installed on the samples of the Bogdan self-propelled guns demonstrated by Ukraine.


SAU 2S22 "Bogdan". Image by wikipedia.org

Ukraine failed to establish serial production of self-propelled guns "Bogdan", although, of course, according to the Ukrainian media, it

"The self-propelled guns" Bogdan "played a key role in the displacement of Russian troops from Snake Island."

Yes of course...

If we just look at the design of the self-propelled guns "Bogdan" from the side, then what do we see? We see that its design is very similar to a towed artillery piece mounted on an armored wheeled off-road chassis. If you use “Occam's razor” as a way of thinking, then maybe it is so?

Of course, most likely, the Bogdan self-propelled guns are a “semi-finished product”, and in the future the Ukrainian military-industrial complex could bring it to the level of the French Caesars, but story does not know the subjunctive mood.

Can Russia do something similar?

Wheel self-propelled guns "Msta-K" and "Hyacinth-K"


The Armed Forces of the Russian Federation are in service and in storage with over a thousand 2A65 Msta-B towed howitzers and over two thousand 2A36 Giacint-B towed guns. They have excellent performance characteristics (TTX), allowing them to strike with active-rocket projectiles at a distance of up to 28,9 kilometers (Msta-B) and up to 33,5 kilometers (Hyacinth-B), for conventional unguided shells firing ranges are respectively 24,7 and 28,5 kilometers.

The mass of 2A65 "Msta-B" is 7 tons, and 2A36 "Hyacinth-B" is about 10 tons. In reality, the mass of the placed gun will be less due to the abandonment of the frames, wheelbase and armored shields. On the other hand, a fairly massive frame with a system of hydraulic supports capable of withstanding the recoil of a 152 mm caliber gun, or a system for installing a gun on the ground, similar to that implemented in the Ukrainian Bogdan self-propelled guns, will have to be mounted on the carrier chassis.

In any case, the Russian industry produces a huge number of wheeled chassis of various carrying capacities, if necessary, you can use the machines produced by the industry of Belarus. Ideally, the cockpit of the driver and crew of artillery pieces should be armored, providing protection from small arms bullets. weapons and fragments of exploding shells.

In addition to the artillery gun, the chassis should be equipped with an ammunition load of about 20-30 shells, as well as means to facilitate the supply of ammunition into the gun barrel. As such, it is not necessary to use complex automated feeding systems, perhaps the best solution would be to use the simplest mechanized systems with a counterweight used in warehouses in the commercial sector.

The most important requirement for wheeled self-propelled guns based on towed artillery systems is the availability of modern means of topographic location, orientation and communication, which ensure interaction with reconnaissance means, including counter-battery weapons and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs). Turning and pointing the gun barrel should be carried out by electric drives, duplicated by existing manual guidance mechanisms.

It is necessary to ensure the maximum reduction in the time for the collapse of wheeled self-propelled guns based on towed artillery systems immediately after firing a shot, in order to ensure the timely abandonment of positions and minimize the risks of destruction by the enemy’s return, counter-battery fire.

The question is, how effective will such wheeled ersatz self-propelled guns be without providing a high rate of fire or implementing the “flurry of fire” mode, when shells fired in one minute fall almost simultaneously at a given point?

Efficiency Issues


The effectiveness of the counter-battery fight "buries" not only the towed artillery, but also the "barrage", so beloved by many - they say, the concentration of artillery strikes in a narrow area of ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXbthe terrain will "grind" any enemy defenses, and then they will go into the breakthrough Tanks and infantry.

In reality, the concentration of artillery and ammunition needed to create a “barrage of fire” will lead to strikes against them with precision weapons. What about high-precision weapons - a few packages of MLRS will be enough. The whole question is in the timely receipt of intelligence data on the concentration of enemy forces - satellite, aviation, UAV and so on. The farther, the worse it will be, the reaction rate of counter-battery systems will be higher and higher.

In general, when they talk about the high cost of high-precision weapons and compare the cost, for example, of a guided / corrected artillery projectile and a conventional, unguided high-explosive fragmentation projectile, they often forget a lot of factors, namely:

- the possibility of destroying the artillery system by enemy return fire in the process of spending hundreds of unguided munitions where one guided one could manage;

- the possibility of leaving or hiding the target if it is not hit by the first shot, and the “flurry of fire” will not always help here;

- the need to transport hundreds - thousands of guided munitions - this is one or two railway cars, or the delivery of hundreds of thousands of unguided munitions, with a concomitant increase in the risks of detecting vehicles, complicating logistics, and the farther from the supply bases, the worse the situation will be;

- the situation with warehouses is similar - which is easier, to disguise a thousand guided missiles or one hundred thousand unguided ones;

- wear of gun barrels, with a concomitant loss of accuracy, the need for repairs in the rear, transportation of guns to the rear and back to the front line;

- and all this will cost a lot, and in the aggregate, the use of unguided projectiles may be more expensive than guided ones.

At the same time, all of the above does not take into account the loss of initiative in battle, the death of personnel, the bitterness of defeats and retreats.

Thus, we can confidently conclude that guided munitions for various purposes are the inevitable future of cannon artillery and MLRS. Unguided munitions will only complement guided munitions, and not vice versa.

And if so, then the rate of fire of artillery guns and the presence of a high rate of fire and the “flurry of fire” mode for artillery systems will no longer be as important as before.

Based on the foregoing, even a wheeled ersatz self-propelled gun, with a low rate of fire, at the level of 1-3 rounds per minute, in the presence of precision-guided munitions, will be a formidable and effective weapon.

Conclusions


As we said above, the Russian Federation is armed with several thousand Msta-B and Giacint-B artillery systems. If we convert at least 20% of them into wheeled self-propelled guns, then we will get about 400-600 wheeled self-propelled guns, albeit inferior to the latest specialized artillery systems, but accurate and highly mobile, capable of operating in the "hit and run" mode, capable in combination with the use of guided missiles to become the "Scourge of God" for the enemy.

Combined with preserved "Peonies" and "Tulips", also armed with guided missiles, this will allow the Russian artillery to create a quantitative and qualitative superiority not only over the Armed Forces of Ukraine, but also over all European countries combined.
163 comments
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  1. -5
    23 December 2022 04: 11
    On the one hand, wheeled vehicles can be deployed under their own power over long distances, on the other hand, in the conditions of a battlefield, the patency of a wheeled chassis is still less, and even more so there is no security. The question is debatable...
    1. +23
      23 December 2022 05: 18
      That is, a KAMAZ dragging a howitzer in tow is more passable than a KAMAZ with the same howitzer in the back?
      1. +2
        23 December 2022 09: 32
        Is not it so? At least one axle more. And less ground pressure.
      2. +9
        23 December 2022 09: 44
        Quote: demiurg
        That is, a KAMAZ dragging a howitzer in tow is more passable than a KAMAZ with the same howitzer in the back?

        passable request. It's easier to carry than to carry. The question is different. How critical is this? I don't think patency is more important than speed here. hi
        1. +4
          23 December 2022 10: 11
          Quote: Adrey

          Come on. It's easier to carry than to carry. The question is different. How critical is this? I don't think patency is more important than speed here.

          That's right, the main thing is efficiency.
          1. -1
            27 December 2022 11: 35
            No, patency is more important. So that art came along with the infantry. Infantry without it will not join the battle, it will wait. So both according to the charter, and according to reason.
        2. mz
          +4
          23 December 2022 14: 21
          Quote: Adrey

          Pass request. It's easier to carry than to carry.

          Why then do all-wheel drive cars? Hooked more trailers to monoprivodnoy and drag. It's simpler. Such logic?
          Each inactive axle is an off-road anchor. A car with a 4x2 wheel arrangement (approx. 1 ton) with an increased road capacity will always yield off-road to a 4x4 car weighing 2 tons. Any trailer impairs the cross-country ability of wheeled vehicles.
          1. +2
            23 December 2022 14: 29
            Look a little wider at the question. Nobody says that the trailer is "+". The question is that worse, carry 10 tons on yourself, or drag along.
            Quote: Monar
            At least one axle more. And less ground pressure.
            1. mz
              +7
              23 December 2022 14: 38
              The trailer will slightly reduce the pressure on the ground (for this to become a significant factor). If the soil is weak, then the trailer will turn into a plow anyway. Therefore, to increase the cross-country ability of wheeled vehicles, it is better to carry on yourself with a corresponding increase in the size of the wheels / number of axles than to drag a trailer. Or use an active trailer.
              1. +1
                23 December 2022 14: 42
                I do not agree with you.
                Let's fix your example. We take two all-wheel drive three-ton trucks. To one of them we load a trailer for a ton into the body, to the other we cling to the fork, and into the mud. Who will go better?
                1. +2
                  23 December 2022 15: 23
                  It strongly depends on the specific pressure on the ground of the trailer, if it is more than that of the tractor, then the amba. Yes, even if it is the same, it will not be very good.
                  1. -1
                    23 December 2022 15: 39
                    Of course you are right, but:
                    Quote: Adrey
                    We take two all-wheel drive three-ton. We load one of them into the back of a trailer per ton, to another we cling to the forkop

                    Schematically, of course, but I think the proportions of the tractor-gun are somewhere close request
                    1. 0
                      23 December 2022 18: 41
                      Definitely with a trailer in the back will drive further. Tobish run longer for the tractor. To paraphrase an anecdote.
                2. mz
                  +1
                  23 December 2022 17: 47
                  In principle, comrade garri-lin answered you, but still in 99% of cases in the first variant (load in the body) the mud throughput will be higher. And 100% in snow.
                  1. 0
                    23 December 2022 21: 56
                    Quote: mz
                    And 100% in snow.

                    I agree with the snow. Sell ​​until hard. Other than that, I'll stick with my opinion and experience. The trailer will unload the main base and go along the broken necklace. hi
                    1. 0
                      6 March 2023 05: 34
                      In areas where there is serious off-road, no one messes with trailers. All cargo is strictly in the body. Although it would seem to you.
        3. +5
          23 December 2022 22: 05
          Quote: Adrey
          Come on. It's easier to carry than to carry.

          Looks like you never had to tow a trailer. Well, at least they pulled sleds? On flat, hard surfaces, yes. In the mud, the opposite is true. That is why, for off-road vehicles, all axles are driven, because each non-driven axle becomes an anchor request .
          1. 0
            23 December 2022 22: 10
            Quote: skeptic
            Looks like you never had to tow a trailer. Well, at least they pulled sleds?

            I don't need about the sled! On Buran, I personally dragged 700kg in spring snow (if that tells you something). Try to load so much on Burka himself for the sake of interest? I'll see how far you go hi
            1. +1
              24 December 2022 19: 29
              Quote: Adrey
              I don't need about the sled! On Buran, I personally dragged 700 kg in spring snow (if that tells you something)

              You can, of course, compare something with a finger, but believe me, how (to a specialist in multi-axle vehicles) in terms of VUS, not to mention the category "E", that a trailer for a car, off-road, becomes even that "anchor", especially on a plowed road tanks. And to compare the tracked "Burka" with wheeled vehicles, off-road - read above. If you really laugh, then because of my youth, I'm on the "Ant" 700kg. cement, through the mud, drove to the dacha. And nothing - brought. wink Naturally, the springs lay on rubber cushions, but the passenger car that stuck in after it got stuck.
              ps By the way, about the artillery... The Germans converted obsolete tanks, including tanks from other European countries, into self-propelled guns.
              1. -1
                24 December 2022 21: 03
                Quote: skeptic
                And to compare the tracked "Burka" with wheeled vehicles, off-road - read above.

                I know this nuance laughing. Just talking about sleds request
                By the way, behind the "Ant" and empty, it's not a fact that the car would have passed.
                That's what "Ant" is for, especially if the rubber is from "Tulitsa".
                Quote: skeptic
                By the way, about artillery ... The Germans converted obsolete tanks, including tanks from other European countries, under "self-propelled guns".

                There are more tank destroyers. It was the self-propelled guns that went on the basis of their tanks hi
            2. 0
              28 December 2022 01: 10
        4. 0
          24 December 2022 15: 14
          Probably, all the same, it’s not worth it now to spend resources on a radical modernization of art, this should have been done ten years ago. Now it is advisable to focus on a radical improvement in our intelligence and countering that of the enemy. And then having artillery will be an order of magnitude more efficient, including towed ones. We have a lot of self-propelled vehicles that cannot realize their potential due to the operation of even "toy" UAVs.
      3. +4
        23 December 2022 10: 07
        you can act perversely and place the gun on a separate trailer, then it will be possible to attach it to old trucks, the main thing is that there is hydraulics, put the FCS on the trailer itself + a diesel generator and a drive on the gun .. and that's it, it will be cheaper, and the folding will be like this same:
        1. +1
          23 December 2022 10: 38
          You can, but you will lose mobility. This monster will weigh like a decent truck. Tractor to him need hoo! hi
          1. +1
            23 December 2022 10: 45
            well, a specific monster weighs a lot, but altering the current chassis, let's say, will increase the mass by a couple of tons
            1. +1
              23 December 2022 10: 48
              Quote: Barberry25
              well, a specific monster weighs a lot, but altering the current chassis, let's say, will increase the mass by a couple of tons

              It won't work for a couple of tons request. No wonder the Americans used a lot of titanium on the "three axes". The price immediately becomes "indecent" hi
              1. +6
                23 December 2022 11: 04
                On axes, the Americans used titanium to get a weapon for transfer by helicopters, and not because it is a very heavy system
                1. +1
                  23 December 2022 11: 15
                  Quote: Barberry25
                  On axes, the Americans used titanium to get a weapon for transfer by helicopters, and not because it is a very heavy system

                  Agree. But is the meaning the same? Maximum lightening of the structure, which is what we are trying to achieve.
                  Put your "wishlist"
                  Quote: Barberry25
                  the main thing is to have hydraulics there, put the FCS on the trailer itself + diesel generator and drive on the implement
                  when converting an ordinary howitzer to a completely new 4 (or rather 8 with a sharply increased mass) wheeled, rapidly unfolding carriage, in an increase in the mass of "only"
                  Quote: Barberry25
                  let's say it will increase the mass by a couple of tons

                  not work request hi
                  "By eye" we get a monster of 20-25 tons, which only something like an BREM can confidently carry request
                  1. +2
                    23 December 2022 11: 28
                    they have a system for a helicopter .. in the photo there is an anti-aircraft gun that should fire 360 ​​degrees. therefore it is heavy, and we only need a sector i.e. for example, you can take the base gun, remove the armor plate and put hydraulics to deploy and collapse the stops.
                    1. 0
                      23 December 2022 11: 52
                      I would like to describe everything to you in sufficient detail.
                      Quote: Barberry25
                      put hydraulics for deploying and collapsing stops.

                      What will work?
                      Do you think a frame capable of withstanding 150 mm recoil will be lighter than two frames? Can you imagine the stops that can withstand this system when firing and the power of the hydraulics? Please note that the mass here plays a positive role for the stability of the system in case of fire. You don’t shoot tea from a machine gun (and he needs it, too). Will you make corrections on a light system after each shot? Apparently, the coulters will still have to be lowered, how will you dig them out later? Do you know that when transporting at speed for heavy guns, the barrel on the knurler is retracted to preserve the recoil and guidance systems? For self-propelled guns and tanks, there is an additional fixation of the barrel "on the march" for this.
                      1. +1
                        23 December 2022 12: 27
                        1) how do you think the KS-19/30 type systems were transported? you can leave stops in the right directions .. hydraulics are no longer a problem .. there is no way to increase the mass by 10 tons, since the current stops will be replaced by others, taking into account the firing sector, you can leave two short stops except for the frame, by analogy with Malva and similar systems
                      2. +1
                        23 December 2022 13: 01
                        Okay. let's compare.
                        Parameter KS 9 KS30 KM52
                        Caliber 100 130 152
                        Combat weight of installation 9350 29 45
                        Transfer time to combat position 7 60?
                        Transfer time to the stowed position 6? ?
                        Look at the mass of these monsters. Who and where and how often dragged them? Time to bring into combat position?
                        And the cherry on the cake:
                        The complex includes:
                        - gun stations of power supply ESD-50 VSA, placed on two-axle trailers;
                      3. 0
                        23 December 2022 13: 14
                        those. you didn’t even read when I wrote to you that these systems were shown as EXAMPLES and yes, these are systems of the FORTY years ... i.e. doesn't it bother you?
                      4. +3
                        23 December 2022 13: 18
                        Why? I read it. Have you read this?
                        Quote: Adrey
                        Put your "wishlist"

                        Quote: Adrey
                        "By eye" we get a monster of 20-25 tons, which only something like an BREM can confidently carry

                        Well, I'm waiting for an answer to the question of what hydraulics work from ..
                      5. 0
                        23 December 2022 13: 27
                        I described below how I propose to do where you found metal for an extra 15 tons, I don’t know
                      6. 0
                        23 December 2022 13: 30
                        What then is the difference from a conventional towed gun? Where are the benefits? Describe.
                      7. +2
                        23 December 2022 13: 52
                        pluses? well, for example, in the fact that the towed gun as part of the division should, according to the standards, perfectly leave the position within 10-13 minutes, the use of hydraulics will allow this to be done within a maximum of 5 minutes
                      8. 0
                        27 December 2022 12: 07
                        What are the standards, where did you get them from? With or without hydraulics, the towed implement rolls up, hitches and begins to withdraw in 2 minutes. Did it hundreds of times. In a combat situation, and faster, it is possible, for example, it does not cover, the sight is removed after leaving the OP, etc.
                      9. +2
                        23 December 2022 12: 30
                        By the way, Bereg also uses hydraulics by the way
                      10. +1
                        23 December 2022 12: 39
                        Quote: Barberry25
                        By the way, Bereg also uses hydraulics by the way

                        Let's not compare here. Are we considering the towed option you proposed?
                      11. +1
                        23 December 2022 12: 51
                        I don’t compare, I point out that there was hydraulics for firing before, so it’s possible to put the difficulties in order to make hydraulics for 2 stops even now
                      12. +1
                        23 December 2022 12: 54
                        here is the same Bogdana using stops based on the towing system
                      13. +5
                        23 December 2022 12: 58
                        clearly .. We take the Bear + towed gun and put two hydraulics - horizontal and vertical - horizontal is responsible for pushing the stops a couple of meters apart, the vertical one is for lowering / raising the stops, we supplement everything with drives for aiming in automatic mode along the coordinates and that's it .. throw shells and shoot


                        remove the armor shields and there will be the same mass, and if you put the stops at a constant distance, you can remove the horizontal hydraulics and limit yourself to only the vertical ones by connecting the stops with one beam for reliability
                      14. 0
                        23 December 2022 13: 04
                        I repeat the question - from what does hydraulics work?
                      15. -1
                        23 December 2022 13: 16
                        you won’t believe it, from the truck) or do you need something separately?
                      16. +3
                        23 December 2022 13: 24
                        Quote: Barberry25
                        you won’t believe it, from the truck) or do you need something separately?

                        That is, to bring it into a combat-transport position, the tractor must stand nearby? During the shooting the same? Will the hydraulic systems be constantly paired or disconnect-connect? What time is needed for this?
                        Well, what kind of garden plant, this garden to fence, when, with such dependence on the tractor, is it much easier to mount it all at once on it?
                      17. 0
                        23 December 2022 13: 31
                        dependence on the tractor is hydraulics connected and on-board power via an electric cable, just like a conventional modern trailer .. By the way, do you also turn off the hydraulics on the truck while driving?
                      18. +1
                        23 December 2022 13: 37
                        I dare not interfere with the flight of your imagination laughing hi
                      19. -3
                        23 December 2022 13: 54
                        what an ironic way to cover up your blunder)
                      20. +1
                        23 December 2022 13: 47
                        And you turn out to be a small dirty trick laughing
                        It's okay, we'll fix it. laughing
                      21. 0
                        23 December 2022 14: 57
                        Auxiliary power plant.
                        In general, this was done to improve tactical mobility, for example, the FH-77 APU made it possible to move at speeds up to 7 km / h before the tug approached.
                      22. 0
                        23 December 2022 15: 00
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        Auxiliary power plant.
                        In general, this was done to improve tactical mobility, for example, the FH-77 APU made it possible to move at speeds up to 7 km / h before the tug approached.

                        Are you talking to me?
                      23. +1
                        23 December 2022 15: 07
                        Are you talking to me?

                        I repeat the question - from what does hydraulics work?
                        Is that your question?
                      24. +1
                        23 December 2022 15: 37
                        Yes thank you. It’s just that I have a lot of answers on the branch, it’s already difficult to make out.
                        The topic of the so-called "motoblocks" has already been raised here. Of course, they make it easier to work with the tool due to electricity and hydraulics, but at the same time, the system itself is complicated and heavier. The ability to move independently can only be regarded as a minor bonus. Will work in ideal conditions with minimum speed. They do not remove the dependence on the tractor for transportation, the time to bring it to the transport position will decrease, but not drastically.
                        As the best argument, who else is in service (not in warehouses) with "motoblocks"?
                      25. +3
                        23 December 2022 16: 20
                        The ability to move independently can only be regarded as a minor bonus.

                        This is just a bonus and a very significant one, "Dhanush" can fire 6 shells (25 seconds), collapse (transition from combat to marching - 50 seconds) and move away from the firing line by about 70 meters (35 seconds) = 110 seconds.
                        Will work in ideal conditions with minimum speed.

                        One of the regular modes is to pull out your own stuck tractor.
                        As the best argument, who else is in service (not in warehouses) with "motoblocks"?

                        The most significant user is India, with up to 300 FH77Bs and Dhanush.
                      26. +2
                        23 December 2022 16: 25
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        about 70 meters

                        How many fragments of 155mm OFS are scattered?
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        One of the regular modes is to pull out your own stuck tractor.

                        belay I'll take your word for it, but I highly doubt it. If only as a winch, if such a function is provided.
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        The most significant user is India, with up to 300 FH77Bs and Dhanush.

                        thanks for the info hi
                      27. +4
                        23 December 2022 17: 19
                        How many fragments of 155mm OFS are scattered?

                        In general, the consumption of shells for a single unobservable target is 300 pieces, when equipped with ASUNO in the mode of short fire raid - movement - short fire raid ... the entire division can arbitrarily move. Hydraulics provides FH77 (1978) transition from combat to marching in 50 seconds, for 2A65 (1987) - 2-2,5 minutes.
                        If only as a winch, if such a function is provided.

                        There, with the FH77, it is regularly connected as an additional bridge.
                      28. +2
                        23 December 2022 17: 27
                        Certainly impressed! But let's estimate the cost-functionality-complexity of such a device before "Caesar", "Archer", "Dana"?
                        What will be the indisputable "+"?
                        Actually, it's interesting to know your opinion hi
                      29. +2
                        23 December 2022 19: 23
                        But let's estimate the cost-functionality-complexity of such a device before "Caesar", "Archer", "Dana"?

                        The price is less, even in full stuffing with a tractor. "Archer" is not bad, but it is small and cannot be loaded from the ground, "Dana" is old, the Slovaks have new "Eva", "Nora" better.
                      30. 0
                        23 December 2022 21: 59
                        Thank you. It was interesting to talk with you hi. But often, cheaper does not mean better, although more is possible.
                      31. 0
                        27 December 2022 12: 23
                        ### shell consumption for a single unobservable target - 300 pcs

                        A single target is hit by 6-8 projectiles. 300 shells are enough to suppress an entire battery.

                        They do not shoot at "unobservable" targets. If the target is not visible with optics from the NP, then it is visible to aviation, visible on photographs, audible sound intelligence, visible to reconnaissance groups.
                      32. +1
                        23 December 2022 21: 51
                        Such a chassis, approximately, for the anti-tank 2a45m Sprut-B for direct fire instead of the Rapier used now. And to it a guidance drive with an automatic target tracking machine, if in fact the enemy tanks show up.
                      33. 0
                        27 December 2022 12: 14
                        ###Electricity and hydraulics they facilitate, but at the same time, the system itself is complicated and heavier

                        Even worse. These additional systems reduce combat stability.
                      34. +1
                        23 December 2022 17: 04
                        Quote: Adrey
                        what does hydraulics do?

                        The engine power take-off shaft, then the pump of the NSh series, the performance is selected according to the drive power and the required fluid flow. That is, another stage of the gearbox, which will switch the engine to the hydraulic pump.
                        But KAMAZ has a pneumatic brake. I propose to make the device for removing the supports pneumatic, on the principle of a "dead center" of the hinge, that is, you only need a pneumatic distributor and an enlarged receiver, in contrast to the new gearbox with a shaft for a hydraulic pump.
                      35. +1
                        23 December 2022 17: 08
                        Didn't seem to get the point of the question. request.
                        The bottom line is that the hydraulics work from the tractor, or from the unit installed directly on the towed implement hi
                      36. 0
                        27 December 2022 11: 59
                        The barrel is retracted to reduce the length of the gun, otherwise you won’t even turn into the forest or in the city, or they will turn back. The recoil carts cannot be damaged, they hold hundreds of tons when fired. In addition, the non-retracted trunk is also fixed - there is always an emphasis "on the marching one".
                  2. 0
                    27 December 2022 11: 52
                    Anti-aircraft 130 mm gun KS-30 in the stowed position 29 tons. And if 152 mm, then probably 35 will be. KS-30 touched in the museum. Makhina. Not suitable for field use.
          2. 0
            27 December 2022 11: 46
            The second axis of patency is also not added.
        2. 0
          27 December 2022 11: 44
          And you can be smart too. Ask gunners - gun commanders and battery officers what they need. And don't give them advice.
        3. 0
          23 January 2023 08: 52
          and let's revive armored trains? railway paths are not destroyed. anything can be placed on the platform.
          joke, if
      4. +3
        23 December 2022 10: 19
        Quote: demiurg
        That is, a KAMAZ dragging a howitzer in tow is more passable than a KAMAZ with the same howitzer in the back?
        Well, how to look, let's take a crane, this is a KAMAZ and it has the same 12 tons in its back; its cross-country ability is slightly lower than that of an onboard KAMAZ with a trailer. The question is not significant if you do not drive on the slopes of mountains and ravines and through mud.laughing 404 all the same has a developed network like Europe, because there this option is good if you still peel from residential development, then in general an airplane.
      5. -1
        23 December 2022 12: 58
        Of course it is more passable, the "trailer" is always worse than the luggage!
      6. 0
        27 December 2022 11: 32
        Yes, towed is more passable. And then the rear axle of the wheeled self-propelled guns is overloaded beyond measure, and the front axle is underloaded. Not only cross-country ability, and handling suffers there. And the stability is not normal - the center of gravity is pulled up.
    2. +3
      23 December 2022 05: 24
      Quote: voice of reason
      the patency of the wheeled chassis is still less .... no security.

      The author writes that the main defense for such self-propelled guns is the ability to quickly leave the position, i.e. armor and should not withstand even large fragments. And with a long range, you can shoot directly from the roads, which Khikhly demonstrate ...
      But I do not agree with the author about the uselessness of a "simultaneous fire raid" - it is still impossible to conduct it at the full range of fire, but at half the range it will allow to carry out a raid with conventional shells with acceptable accuracy and avoid retaliation. Because shells with increased accuracy are needed to compensate for the inevitable spread at extreme distances.
      It's all about intelligence.
      1. +5
        23 December 2022 06: 11
        I also think that purely technically, the fire shaft can also be applied by dispersed artillery, only you need to tinker more with the data for firing
        1. +1
          23 December 2022 07: 00
          Quote: prodi
          I also think that purely technically, the fire shaft can also be applied by dispersed artillery, only you need to tinker more with the data for firing

          I don’t know, all the same, the shaft is kept in front of the advancing troops, which means it is long in time, and this is a vulnerability.
          1. +1
            23 December 2022 07: 40
            of course, vulnerability, but with massive and spatially spaced (rather than pinpoint) shelling, and even with an unfolding attack, the defenders will have a lot of threats
            1. +1
              23 December 2022 09: 52
              Quote: prodi
              of course, vulnerability, but with massive and spatially spaced (rather than pinpoint) shelling, and even with an unfolding attack, the defenders will have a lot of threats

              Large-caliber, long-range MLRS and Chimeras do not have many threats request
              You can consider the issue of setting the shaft differently. The battery fires for 5 minutes, is removed and goes to another position. Immediately behind her, a second one opens fire. The same 5 minutes and a shift. Then the third and so on in a circle, how much is available. In 20-30 minutes you can drive far from the first position, but to a pre-prepared route along a pre-designed and skated route.
              And here the speed of wheeled self-propelled guns comes out on top.
              1. 0
                23 December 2022 10: 45
                here all the trunks spaced over the area of ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXbthe front line (and range) will be "threats" and at the same time interference for enemy counter-battery radars, plus a tank attack - they will make them "bake fried"
                1. +1
                  23 December 2022 10: 51
                  Quote: prodi
                  here all the trunks spaced over the area of ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXbthe front line (and range) will be "threats" and at the same time interference for enemy counter-battery radars

                  If they stand still, they will still calculate and warm up. Maybe not all of course, and not immediately, but who will feel better about this?
                  1. 0
                    23 December 2022 12: 08
                    "fiery shaft" is already quite difficult shooting; for spaced apart guns, generating data for firing will be much more difficult, and if it’s also with their movement, then very few people can do it
                    1. +4
                      23 December 2022 12: 11
                      Quote: prodi
                      "fiery shaft" is already quite difficult shooting; for spaced apart guns, generating data for firing will be much more difficult, and if it’s also with their movement, then very few people can do it

                      So we must strive to be within our "powers". The lives of the gunners will depend on this, as well as the fulfillment of the task.
                      Another war is now. They are not allowed to fight now "in the old fashioned way". We must adapt to it and find new solutions to old problems. hi
                    2. 0
                      27 December 2022 12: 41
                      Fire shaft - this is shooting with the transfer of fire deep into the enemy's defenses. The most common fire mission. Not a single lieutenant is promoted to starley if he has not shown at the training ground that he owns it. Don't judge by the footage from the SVO, the militias are simply trolling the Armed Forces of Ukraine with "harassing fire". But they haven't moved on for a year now.
          2. 0
            27 December 2022 12: 34
            Art preparation, the same shaft - the safest time of the battle. Just at that time, the enemy is in hiding and does not emerge from there. There can be no talk of retaliatory shooting.
        2. 0
          26 December 2022 15: 52
          Quote: prodi
          I also think that purely technically, the fire shaft can also be applied by dispersed artillery, only you need to tinker more with the data for firing

          At the vein This was implemented, but you need to have the Glonass grouping. And there is also a system of celestial navigation, but very capricious equipment is needed
          1. 0
            27 December 2022 12: 43
            Neither Glonass, nor even more so celestial navigation, is ever needed for the "fiery sky". At all.
        3. 0
          27 December 2022 12: 31
          The fire shaft (transfer of fire) is carried out by bringing down the fire of subunits. The author of the article has no idea and thinks that for this purpose the guns are put in a row :) And no special fuss is required, ordinary preparation of data.
      2. +4
        23 December 2022 09: 53
        Even simpler, the author makes no distinction in purpose and variety of ammunition. There is a strong point or building for which tens and hundreds of shells are needed, and it makes almost no difference what they will be, but sometimes cluster ones are better. And there is a single target, in the form of a separate tank or tracked self-propelled guns, for which one controlled one is really enough instead of hundreds of unguided ones.
    3. IVZ
      +3
      23 December 2022 05: 43
      , the patency of the wheeled chassis is still less, and even more so there is no security. The question is debatable...
      Here, a tractor-towed implement is compared with a tractor-mounted implement. With traditional ACS, the comparison is not correct. And no one bothers to book a cabin.
    4. +3
      23 December 2022 06: 26
      “The question, in general, is debatable, like any question of the use of equipment and weapons.
      The author writes a lot, in my opinion, is correct. They say that the possibilities of counter-battery combat are not what they were now, it is necessary to change positions quickly, but at the same time, something important remained in the shadows. It is impossible to win the fight against enemy artillery only by changing positions, it must be destroyed not only by artillery fire at the observed coordinates, but also by using other types of reconnaissance, aviation with URs, UAVs, which is often, but still not enough, being done now.
      Second, simply putting a large-caliber gun in the back will not work. The result is a rather complex wheeled self-propelled gun, comparable in price to a tracked one.
      These are also needed, all weapons are made for their tasks. But to change positions (the new firing position still needs to be disguised for a very voluminous self-propelled gun), isn’t it easier to use a walk-behind tractor, which was invented decades ago, or to come up with a hitch that allows you to attach a gun to a tractor in 20 seconds?
      After all, self-propelled guns have an advantage in the form of mobility, etc., but also disadvantages. This is the price, the complexity of maintenance, repair, crew training.
      Not without reason, sometimes the old D-20 is used more efficiently than the modern NATO self-propelled guns, which shot for two days in the mud and take it to the factory for repairs.
      1. 0
        23 December 2022 09: 58
        Quote: Alekseev
        But to change the position (the new firing still needs to be disguised for a very voluminous self-propelled gun)

        Why mask it if you can remove it after 3 minutes?
        Quote: Alekseev
        Isn't it easier to use a walk-behind tractor,

        Why didn't you like the tractor? the time spent on coupling is more than compensated by the speed of movement (a weak walk-behind tractor will not give out more than 10-15 km / h even on a flat field)
        Quote: Alekseev

        After all, self-propelled guns have an advantage in the form of mobility, etc., but also disadvantages.

        Any weapon is characterized by this request . The question of what is more, + or - hi
      2. +4
        23 December 2022 10: 32
        Quote: Alekseev
        These are also needed, all weapons are made for their tasks. But to change positions (the new firing position still needs to be disguised for a very voluminous self-propelled gun), isn’t it easier to use a walk-behind tractor, which was invented decades ago

        So they tried to make self-propelled guns. The topic didn't come up. For it all worked well only on solid soils, with which we have some tension in the spring and autumn. If you raise the power of the auxiliary engine, the mass of the gun also climbs up. A trailed version of a walk-behind tractor ... it’s easier to fit a regular tractor.
        And most importantly, after all successive approximations, such a self-propelled gun turns into a gun on an all-wheel drive chassis with a powerful engine. That is - in a wheeled self-propelled guns. smile
      3. 0
        23 December 2022 22: 23
        About fifteen years ago, one office (ours) presented a carriage for cannons at the exhibition, from the stowed position, with the help of pneumatics, it unfolded like a spider on four paws, at that time a pair of wheels turned a little inward and upward along the corner, after which each paw was stopped by a rotary front, a total of 40-45 seconds, it took a little less to collapse, each paw had a reverse action spring, while the two front paws had a worm-and-socket connection directly to the wheels. And nothing has changed...
        According to pneuma, I think it is not necessary to explain where to power it from
      4. 0
        27 December 2022 12: 48
        Alekseev You speak correctly. But the gun, even without any adaptations, on the hands, nevertheless, in 20 seconds, is linked to the tractor.
  2. +3
    23 December 2022 05: 16
    In theory, we need a structure that can be separated from the carrier frame for the duration of the shooting, capable of withstanding the recoil of Msta or Hyacinth. Then it will be possible to take serial four-axle Kamaz / Urals from the assembly line.
    And the obligatory ASUNO at least the level of Msta-SM. God bless him with a radar, but topographic location and inertial and satellite are simply necessary.
    1. +4
      23 December 2022 10: 02
      Everything has been thought of before us. The fastest readiness for firing and folding from firing positions was with anti-aircraft guns of the middle of the 20th century.
      1. 0
        23 December 2022 10: 29
        I was just thinking about this) the simplest option is to make a universal chassis for 152 mm and for 122 mm and put the towed guns there - hitched it to the truck and drove where you need to
        1. +2
          23 December 2022 10: 41
          If only everything was that simple. All the same, automation will be required, some kind of drive and a solution for placing ammunition. Something like the 57-mm S-60 installation will have to be deployed.
          1. 0
            23 December 2022 10: 46
            well, yes, you need a generator and hydraulics, but in any case, you need to install an SLA there, but the savings on the chassis will be big - if the truck is knocked out, then I hooked it up to another one and drove on
            1. +1
              23 December 2022 11: 06
              Namely, on large calibers, the chassis can indeed be separated. Then the ammunition can be divided, part on a trailer (semi-trailer), and part on a tractor.
              1. 0
                23 December 2022 11: 30
                by the way, it is not necessary to make a similar chassis completely, we need a sector of 60 degrees for firing, and not 360 i.e. only enough hydraulics for stops i.e. what is now done by hand should be done by hydraulics faster
                1. 0
                  27 December 2022 12: 56
                  There is a more reliable and cheaper intermediate option - mechanical jacks. There is nothing to break, to tear ...
                  1. -1
                    27 December 2022 13: 53
                    well, if they provide a similar rate of folding as hydraulics. then you can
      2. +1
        23 December 2022 10: 33
        Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
        Everything has been thought of before us. The fastest readiness for firing and folding from firing positions was with anti-aircraft guns of the middle of the 20th century.

        So-so comparison to be honest.
        You take the deployment time of the gun itself, without driving, driving, hitching the tractor.
        Yes, and caliber 85 with predominant shooting at extremely high aiming angles ...
        In caliber 120-150, the mass of the carriage is several times higher. Only coulters dug into the ground from recoil are tormented to uproot manually hi
        1. 0
          23 December 2022 10: 38
          And how are ordinary wheeled SAOs not buried and the problem is solved there? And no one suggests scaling the design one to one, it is only indicated that there is room to grow.
          1. 0
            23 December 2022 10: 44
            Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
            And how are ordinary wheeled SAOs not buried and the problem is solved there?

            On the vast majority of them, shooting is carried out in the direction of travel + -30 ". The coulter lowered from behind leaves the ground simply by moving the installation forward hi
            Above is a post by a colleague Barberry25 and my answer to him. It offers a solution similar to yours hi
        2. 0
          27 December 2022 13: 00
          Adrey, believe the old artilleryman - the openers of the towed gun are more difficult to dig in and strengthen. They are taken relatively easily. They cannot sink deeply - the bed rests on the ground. And shoot them loosen, not wedge.
      3. +1
        23 December 2022 11: 31
        Everything has been thought of before us. The fastest readiness for firing and folding from firing positions was with anti-aircraft guns of the middle of the 20th century.

        Tell us about the "fastest" in caliber 152 mm KM-52 with a mass of 30+ tons.
      4. 0
        27 December 2022 12: 51
        Sergey Aleksandrovich, anti-aircraft guns rarely roll at all. They can stand in position for months. A 4-wheeled chassis is for circular fire, not to speed up deployment.
    2. 0
      23 December 2022 10: 09
      well, then we need hydraulic supports, like they are put on the Shell
  3. 0
    23 December 2022 05: 27
    I think it should be modern complex projectile - weapon - reconnaissance station plus BIUS, because the "zoo" no longer meets the requirements of modern warfare, plus air defense / electronic warfare is covered, well, the main problem COMMUNICATION.
  4. 0
    23 December 2022 08: 34
    Yes, that would be a good solution. The same "Hyacinths" should be transferred to self-propelled wheeled chassis, while there are reserves ... KAMAZ trucks, of course, are a bad option for this, although, I saw a couple of times in the forest, timber tractors climbed quite far until there was mud. Alternatively, the same Volat 6 or 5 series, if not prohibitively expensive. You can fantasize about the mythical mega-Ural with a protected cabin, but here you need to look at things more realistically. Perhaps it is easier to upgrade the tracked Hyacinths to the maximum, for starters.
    1. +1
      23 December 2022 08: 40
      what the fuck Kamaz, we have BASEs ....
      1. -1
        23 December 2022 20: 17
        Is it so that the total mass is 30-40 tons? Moreover, every "Caesar" is two less.
        1. +1
          24 December 2022 02: 51
          remember the Osa air defense system, on a three-axle chassis, where are 30-40 tons? less than 20, also floating ... hi
        2. 0
          26 December 2022 22: 21
          In terms of mass, the same as the eight-wheeled Volat will come out. Research Institute Burevestnik reports a mass of 32 tons.
    2. +1
      26 December 2022 22: 19
      The author comes up with what we have already tried to implement the SAO 2S43 "Malva" on the BAZ chassis.
  5. +1
    23 December 2022 08: 42
    We have experience, we remember the 130mm Bereg complex, we need to produce it.
    1. 0
      23 December 2022 20: 26
      From the "Coast" you will not get such a self-propelled gun, it is heavy for this, there is a lot of "excess". Heavier and absent in the nomenclature of the ground forces 130-mm shells. There seems to be a rather advanced SLA, but the generals don’t really need it (like firing at air and floating targets).
    2. 0
      27 December 2022 13: 07
      A coast for warm and hard rocky shores of the Black Sea. With a developed road network. Field art is a little different.
  6. 0
    23 December 2022 09: 28
    Who are you the author!? "I don't recognize you in makeup" laughing
    Well, you can write adequate articles, and not just blow up enemy bases with fire ships from bulk carriers with ammonium nitrate and the Akula submarine loaded with hexagen laughing
  7. +1
    23 December 2022 09: 41
    All the theses voiced in the article are unconditionally true, but are feasible only under one condition, the prerequisites for which are not yet noticeable.
    It would seem that it is easier? To cross a "snake" with a "hedgehog" - a dump truck frame for 30+ tons with a frame and a truck crane support system for the same mass (we will not talk about the armored cab, they are sculpted in artisanal conditions). As for the gun: remove the bed and wheel travel, provide aiming angles of + - 30 "in the direction of travel and conditions for quick loading of three shots.
    But there are a number of "buts" here:
    1. This is not a new chassis to develop for 7-10 years?
    2. It's not a new artillery system to develop during the same time?
    3. And how to earn money (to cut)? Well, not in cheap production (fortunately, everything is assembled from available, and therefore relatively inexpensive components)?
    The implementation of this project is possible only if there is a "terrible roar" from above. But so far there are no prerequisites on the horizon for this hi
    1. 0
      23 December 2022 10: 10
      Well, if you wish, you can make such a system in 2 years, If it’s sensible to do
      1. 0
        23 December 2022 10: 14
        Quote: Barberry25
        Well, if you wish, you can make such a system in 2 years, If it’s sensible to do

        I think faster, especially in wartime request
        The reasons why this is not, in my opinion, I have indicated hi
        1. 0
          23 December 2022 10: 23
          well, I think if the Kremlin orders, they will do it .. by the way, maybe they are already doing it, it’s just that the military-industrial complex really doesn’t like to spread now
          1. -1
            23 December 2022 10: 24
            Quote: Barberry25
            By the way, maybe they already do

            We will see request hi
      2. 0
        23 December 2022 14: 25
        how much did the T-60 design during the war?
    2. -1
      26 December 2022 22: 29
      There is Malva at the BAZ base, but they are not in the troops. So everything has already been developed. The problem is not even that. Here the author describes the concept, but I don’t understand what prevents MSTA-S from doing the same thing now? Moreover, it’s once again muddy, wheeled chassis don’t feel very good in such conditions, so why don’t we see such an application of self-propelled guns? I think it’s just that there is a shortage of guided missiles in the troops, which is why we are turning the fields into a lunar landscape, so the problem here is not the lack of mobile self-propelled guns.
  8. -1
    23 December 2022 10: 31
    Areal targets are not going anywhere, the abundance of trenches and strongholds in this conflict confirms this. To defeat such targets, a high rate of fire is important. A good option would be to upgrade the 82-mm mortar 2B9 "Vasilek" with the installation on a chassis similar to the SAO "Floks". Then the mines for firing can be prepared in advance, the cassettes with them can be placed in racks or boxes protected from moisture, and all prepared ammunition can be released during a fire raid in 1,5-2 minutes. There remains the problem of a short firing range and the absence of cumulative fragmentation mines for hitting the roof
    field fortifications and armored vehicles, as well as the problem of the lack of multi-mode radio fuses for small-caliber mines.
    1. +1
      23 December 2022 21: 15
      Another version was posted today on the Military Chronicle "Review of the 57-mm S-60 cannon, which the Wagnerites installed on a caterpillar track." The range is much longer, the ammunition is ready, but it is difficult to make effective cumulative ammunition against fortifications and equipment.
    2. 0
      27 December 2022 13: 14
      Sergey Aleksandrovich I agree, but the minis do not need to be blown up in the air. They work best on contact with the ground. The fall angle is vertical, the hull is optimal, the fragmentation field is low and circular. Air gap - this is for the artillery shell.
  9. 0
    23 December 2022 11: 13
    Self-propelled wheeled artillery systems - we call them SAO ... (self-propelled artillery gun)
  10. +1
    23 December 2022 11: 28
    One small "nude". Until recently, the US Army did not consider it necessary to have wheeled self-propelled guns. Actually, she doesn’t have them now, but they just took care of the issue. The second "nude" - judging by Malva and Colalicia-SVK, we definitely won't succeed with "Caesar". Get a monster like the Shore. The third "nu" is the key word here for the author of "1-2" precision-guided munitions. Even if we have such ones (I don’t think that “plugging” GLONASS into Krasnopol is such an impossible task), optical reconnaissance satellites are definitely not worth waiting for in the next two years. Since you have to shoot not 1 or 2, then you definitely won’t be able to hit the road quickly (by the way, the same Caesar also has a coulter, so it’s not as fast anyway, like the M109 or Msta). Then all the same, a trench, which is much easier to dig for a towed gun.
  11. +2
    23 December 2022 11: 58
    In general, when they talk about the high cost of high-precision weapons

    So they say correctly, there are just point targets, and there are group and last ones, if we talk about work on field defense, conditionally 90%, and the first 10%. For example, a entrenched infantry platoon on vehicles - up to 3 AFVs, CNP, 1-2 dugouts (according to the norm, up to 1/3 should be in shelters), a bunch of positions for machine guns, grenade launchers, shooters, blocked slots, etc. Let's suppose that if you identify and identify equipment and CNP - a legitimate target for "Krasnopol", and the rest? Is the author going to hit every WTO rovik? So there is not enough money for this.
    In theory, each vegetable has its own garden bed, there are 5 vehicles in the division (battery and division commanders), to shine for Krasnopol from them or from the UAV, the remaining 13 work with conventional shells. Moreover, there are now a lot of systems that allow you to accurately shoot a conventional projectile, they just don’t receive such advertising.
    1. 0
      27 December 2022 13: 21
      strannik85 You speak very correctly about the types and distribution of goals. And Krasnopol's guidance equipment is the only one in the division. And more often - portable. Officers' command vehicles do not stand so close to the front line, they do not illuminate from them.
  12. -4
    23 December 2022 12: 06
    Or maybe in order to provide a fire shaft, you need to suppress enemy artillery?
    They did that during WWII.
  13. -1
    23 December 2022 12: 27
    Does the tower remind me of the archer tower alone?
  14. 0
    23 December 2022 12: 45
    So the war showed where are these 80% of modern weapons in the troops? Where are the Almaty, Boomerangs, new Msta. I'm not talking about Krasnopol, we are still talking about a fire shaft
    1. +2
      23 December 2022 21: 30
      Krasnopol is not a wunderwaffe at all, it flies not far, it requires laser illumination of the target. No wonder the Americans removed their Copperhead from service in the 90s (as a result of which Krasnopol remained unparalleled in the world).
  15. 0
    23 December 2022 14: 03
    The easiest and cheapest way is to simply change the carriage of the towed gun in order to attach it to the KAMAZ tightly and that's it. The only question is to provide convenient targeting in this case. He fired, jumped into the cab of the KAMAZ and drove off, it is only necessary to change the carriage and that's all, so as not to interfere with aiming at the target. We have a lot of towed guns, trucks too, in fact, change a little
    1. 0
      23 December 2022 14: 37
      it’s quite realistic to fix the gun stops and hydraulically raise it lower, remove the gun mask, install electric guidance drives, navigation and a ballistic computer connected with communication + weather station .. if you first prepare the projectile and specify it in the calculator, then you can apply it within 60 seconds after receiving the data strike and leave positions within 2-3 minutes, it remains only to adapt the body of the truck so that shells and charges can be taken from the side of the ground as on wheeled self-propelled guns of the Caesar type
      1. 0
        23 December 2022 14: 57
        I wonder if it’s realistic to do without hydraulics and simply use the body of the truck as a fight against recoil, because its mass is not sickly? The truck will definitely not break from this, of course the towing device will have to be modified.
        1. 0
          23 December 2022 15: 17
          in theory, yes, in practice, any truck will eventually have to be thrown away .. it’s not worth the candle .. it’s easier to put stops ... in any case, the deployment / withdrawal speed will be higher than carrying everything with your hands, but taking into account the fact that, in principle, you can’t hear about works on similar topics, they will make analogues of Malvina .. maybe they will really just put Mstu on some, Hyacinth on others and that's it ..
        2. +2
          23 December 2022 17: 12
          Deployment time - don't care. Until they fired, the enemy does not see. You can twist the screw jacks with crowbars. But folding - to apply compressed air under the supports, for "tack", fold the supports with a pneumatic actuator and tear. And then stop and fold the supports sticking out to the sides in a marching way, so as not to depict an inverted toad with sticking out supports.
          1. +2
            23 December 2022 21: 19
            I am not familiar in detail with the design of the used manual screw supports, but there are also quick-clamping vices where there is a lot of free play and then pulling up. It is possible, probably, to make supports according to this principle.
            1. 0
              27 December 2022 13: 31
              It also seems to me that mechanical jacks / drives are the simplest and most reliable solution.
        3. +1
          23 December 2022 20: 40
          When firing like a howitzer, the Msta-B breech departs quite low, and in order to operate such a "shushpanzer" (KAMAZ - 7m + Msta-B without bipods - 8m), the hitch must be able to fold when turning. Those. you need not only a single opener, but also a strongly curved breech for the stroke, emphasis on the ground and towing
    2. +1
      27 December 2022 13: 26
      the Urals The carriage must cling to the ground. And transfer hundreds of tons of recoil forces to it. If transferred to a tractor, it will fail. In general, the clutch of the gun is not such a long operation. They took it, they picked it up. The tractor gave back and the beds lay down on the hitch. Second business.
  16. 0
    23 December 2022 15: 30
    Geocinth can be completely put on the BAZ.
  17. +1
    23 December 2022 18: 17
    just look at the number of American M-777 howitzers or “three axes” destroyed on Ukrainian soil




    The M777 is not towed artillery, but a form of artillery that focuses on mobility. On a mountaintop where vehicles are impassable, helicopters can be flown to locations with tactical advantages.
  18. 0
    23 December 2022 21: 13
    And is it definitely more profitable to convert, rather than build anew?
  19. The comment was deleted.
  20. 0
    27 December 2022 17: 30
    but our army does not yet have wheeled self-propelled guns. - again the USSR is to blame ?!

    The Motovilikha plant, which made the barrels of artillery guns, is going to be completely liquidated.

    Who in the Russian Federation since 1991 was responsible for the military-technical policy in general in the Defense Ministry and in the branches of the Armed Forces?

    One of them is the father of Galkin, Pugachev's husband.

    Who is to blame for the inefficient use of precision-guided munitions in the NWO? + - Well, they gasped once along the Beskydy railway tunnel, WELL - ??? Without a massive strike, everything was restored there and Western weapons
    in the Armed Forces of Ukraine enters uninterruptedly.

    It's like Brekhneral Konashavkin's constant mooing about ... the eleventh high-precision strike on the naval center of the Ukrainian Navy in Ochakovo, which is not able to destroy it.

    As long as no one is responsible for anything with his head, there will be no sense
  21. 0
    27 December 2022 22: 17
    It seems that we have already understood this and began to develop wheeled self-propelled guns. Now it only remains to wait for the mass production of these self-propelled guns and their appearance in the army.




  22. -1
    27 December 2022 23: 24
    It is characteristic that the armed forces of the USSR did not realize the potential of this type of weapon.

    In fact, in the USSR, self-propelled artillery began to develop precisely on a wheelbase. 76-mm SU-12s were mass-produced, lit up in many photographs and newsreels, and even managed to take part in battles with Japanese militarists.
    But the conclusions from the experience of the combat use of these systems in the conditions of the domestic theater of operations were made absolutely correct in the future, right up to the end of the 80s (when the children of marshals - pupils of the Arbat Military District came to the leadership of the Armed Forces) did not return to the issue of creating self-propelled artillery on a wheelbase .
    Judging by the photographs circulating on the net, today the leadership of the RF Armed Forces again decided to follow the old rake.
  23. 0
    28 December 2022 15: 23
    Horses-people mixed in a bunch.
    Naturally, when delivering a massive artillery strike using towed artillery, this artillery will be exposed openly, no one will bother to dig even a poor trench.
    Naturally, no one will take it into his head to bring towed artillery to firing positions only on the eve of artillery preparation, but they will install it there in six months.
    Naturally, when delivering a massive strike with towed artillery, no one will bother to cover the areas of its firing positions with air defense systems, air defense will smoke bamboo and contemptuously ignore enemy reconnaissance UAVs, they say, it’s below their dignity, bring down UAVs.
    Naturally, no one will bother with a counter-battery fight, and no artillery or air strikes will be delivered to the firing positions of enemy artillery.
    Naturally, no one will be puzzled by the neutralization of the enemy satellite constellation. And if during the proxy war in the Reich's coming out, the NATO orbital grouping is inviolable, then in any other conflict, the first thing that will be done is a blow to the orbital grouping. After that, all these reviews of the situation in real time will sink into oblivion. And it’s not yet a fact that without space reconnaissance and communications, without an online data transfer mode, the enemy will be effective.
    It seems to everyone that self-propelled guns are better protected. But a close break damages the undercarriage. And the self-propelled guns are chained to the place. Even if the regular tractor of the towed gun is out of action, it is always possible to find the "Ural" or "KamAZ" to which the gun clings and the combat effectiveness of the artillery unit does not fall.
    Further, the current hostilities are specific. First, the NATO satellite constellation is inviolable. Secondly, NATO AWACS aircraft are working quietly. Thirdly, electronic warfare systems are used to a limited extent against artillery reconnaissance radars and UAV control systems. In a large-scale conflict, there will be neither calm work of space reconnaissance, nor unhindered flights of AWACS aircraft, nor inactive electronic warfare equipment. And without this, determining the coordinates of firing guns becomes a non-trivial problem. After all, in order to hit a towed gun in a firing position, you need to know the coordinates of this gun with an accuracy, well, at least up to a meter. An error of plus or minus a dozen meters already turns high-precision weapons into the same uncorrected ammunition in terms of the level of impact. And how to determine the coordinates, if the UAV is lying like autumn leaves from the trees, AWACS aircraft cannot determine the coordinates to the level of the position of a separate gun, the orbital grouping has been neutralized. And it’s impossible to hit and shoot everyone once or twice.
    The author's maxims immediately evoke memories when, following some experience of the war in Afghanistan, somewhere in 1984, some leaders suddenly became inflamed with a desire to make the ALL army light. Like, infantry fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers, tanks, self-propelled guns, towed guns in Afghanistan did not show the expected effectiveness. That is why we are reformatting groups of Soviet troops in Europe. We will leave only 82-mm and 120-mm imnomers, grenade launchers, portable MLRS launchers, to move either on foot or in "jeeps". And tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers, self-propelled guns, heavy howitzers and guns will be scrapped. It's good that there were smart heads who slapped the "reformers" on the heads, they say, cretins, you are trying to transfer the counterguerrilla war to the theater of combat contact, where there will be a clearly defined front line, where the enemy is not in the mountains in ambushes, but will be in tanks and BMP / BTR to fight, with artillery support. Are you thinking with your head or with your asses, nerds?
    But in general, I remember 10 years ago, artillery was already declared a dying branch of the army. They filtered through the lip, like, why the heck do you need it when a pair or a Su-34 link arrives and they defeat everyone with high-precision rocket bombs. About enemy air defense, however, the projectors did not hear from the word at all.
    Therefore, speculative conclusions never lead to correct decisions.
  24. 0
    29 December 2022 18: 34
    Take for the base DT-30 "Vityaz" - a two-link all-terrain vehicle. The gun is at the back, 203 mm is possible, the gun from the "Peony" will stand up. A two-link is the best option, high cross-country ability, speed of 40 km/h, the gun is in the back, everything else is in the front.
  25. 0
    19 January 2023 01: 21
    We have wheeled art systems, these are the same Nona SVK based on the BTR-80 and the coastal defense complex Bereg. By the way, a fairly perfect system, although expensive. Due to the perfect suo and radar, it can hit moving targets without the use of corrective ammunition. But they are few...
    Towed artillery will exist for a long time, mortars will generally remain so until an army entirely of robots begins to exist.
  26. +1
    31 January 2023 19: 23
    To make an attachment to a wheeled vehicle towing a gun, which in 20 seconds will stick the coulters of the carriage and pull it out in 20 seconds, while the crew, having fired back, is loaded into the car, you can do it like nothing. BUT! There is little to steal and cut. Therefore, we look at the equipment at the parade and coffin the personnel in the war.
    An anecdote about a soldier who swept the parade ground with a crowbar - is it necessary? Or do you know? Now, it's the same.
  27. 0
    17 February 2023 16: 22
    I do not agree with the author.

    In the NWO, towed artillery is successfully used to hold the heights.
    I see no reason to write off what brings good results. On the contrary, this needs to be preserved and modernized in order to increase the range and accuracy.
  28. 0
    19 February 2023 13: 43
    Why can't a modern fighting compartment from the Coalition be put on the BAZ chassis from Malva? Put immediately above a pair of rear axles so that it is not as long as a steam locomotive. KAMAZ seems to me to be losing to BAZ here.

    And finally, why can't you "copy" the Caesar self-propelled guns, they said that we got these as a trophy. Where is everything????????
    1. 0
      3 March 2023 09: 25
      So we already have 4 wheeled trailed guns, we just need to speed up the deployment / collapse time there and make shells with glonas / gps. They are more than ten years old. Yes, and we have better Caesars, MLRS of various modifications.

      It is not necessary to make an exact copy.
      1. 0
        6 March 2023 11: 28
        In terms of the totality of characteristics (firing range, accuracy, mobility), we have nothing better than Caesar in the series. And what does the MLRS?
  29. 0
    27 March 2024 09: 15
    From an amateur's point of view:
    What prevents you from installing on a ready-made towed gun mechanized drives for bringing the gun into the combat and traveling positions, completely removing this function from the crew and the AZ based on the Drum of the first shots (necessary and sufficient for a fire attack + UR/US in case of a sudden threat)?

    Accordingly, shooting is carried out with a weapon, which is a transformable semi-trailer with a permanent coupling to a tractor, which is:
    * energy source for gun drives
    * calculation post in armored capsule
    * charging machine with a manipulator for changing the Drums of the AZ gun and an automatic loading of the Drums
    * carrier of counter-battery warfare and PDO (Anti-Drone Defense) means

    notes:
    * The drum can be replaced by a system of a pair of interchangeable magazines
    * If the mechanization drives are powered, then by equipping the gun (for example, with a barrel that has almost exhausted its service life) with a diesel generator/battery, you can transform it into a remotely controlled stationary firing point (by dismantling the already unnecessary drives for bringing into firing position)
    * The transfer to the stowed position can be staged (1 automatic lifting off the ground and hanging of the beds and support plates. 2 the start of the road train movement. 3 automatic bringing of all elements into the normal stowed position while the road train is moving)