Western combat helicopters for China

55
Western combat helicopters for China

As in the case of the fighter aviation by the beginning of the 1980s, China was very far behind the USSR and the industrialized countries of the West in the field of helicopter construction. After rapprochement with the United States in the 1970s and 1980s, the Chinese leadership took steps to purchase helicopter equipment and engines from the West. In addition to licensed copying, in a number of cases, Chinese designers illegally borrowed technical components, assemblies and on-board systems of foreign helicopters.

Chinese helicopter industry before the start of military-technical cooperation with Western countries


From 1964 to 1980, the aircraft factory in Harbin produced a Chinese copy of the Mi-4 piston helicopter, which in China had the designation Z-5 (Zhishengji-5). The operation of this machine in China ended in the 1970st century. Already by the beginning of the 5s, the Z-XNUMX helicopter lagged behind the advanced world level of helicopter engineering and could not fully meet the needs of the armed forces.


Z-5 helicopter armed with a 12,7 mm machine gun

In 1982, the Z-5 helicopter was equipped with a Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6 T-6 Twin Pac turboshaft engine with an HP 1 power. With. However, due to the general obsolescence of the helicopter design, the matter was limited to one converted copy.



In the early 1970s, testing of the Z-6 helicopter began, in which Z-5 units were partially used. This helicopter, conceived as a functional analogue of the Soviet Mi-8, was equipped with a Chinese WZ-5 gas turbine engine with an HP 2 power. With. The maximum takeoff weight of the rotorcraft was 200 kg, speed - up to 7 km / h, range - up to 600 km. Crew - 192 people. Capacity - 650 passengers or 2 kg of cargo.


Helicopter Z-6

During the trial operation of the Z-6, several flight accidents occurred, and at least one machine burned down after a fall. Pilot operation of the Z-6 showed that although the helicopter's engine power was greater than that of the Z-5, it was still insufficient, and the single-engine layout greatly reduced flight safety.

As a result, the customer, represented by the PLA, refused to replace the Z-5 with the Z-6. From 1970 to 1977, 11 Z-6 helicopters were manufactured at the Jiangsu aircraft factory.

Helicopter Z-8


From December 1975 to April 1977, China received a batch of 12 SA 321 Super Frelon helicopters in anti-submarine and search and rescue versions. In 1976, the leadership of the PRC decides to establish in the country the production of a copy of the Super Frelon helicopter. The Chinese version of the machine was designated Z-8.

The first flight of the prototype took place in December 1985. Deliveries to the customer began in 1989. The helicopters were assembled at the CAIC Aircraft Corporation in Jingdezhen (Jiangxi Province). Refurbishment was also carried out here.


Helicopter Z-8

The Z-8 helicopter is in service with the PLA Air Force and Navy in four main versions: transport, anti-submarine, search and rescue and ambulance. Can carry up to 39 people or up to 27 equipped troops. In the sanitary variant, 15 wounded stretchers and medical equipment are provided on board. The anti-submarine Z-8 is capable of carrying sonar buoys, torpedoes, anti-ship missiles and sea mines. The maximum payload weight is 5 kg. Crew: 000–2 people, depending on modification.


The maximum takeoff weight reaches 13 kg. The power plant is three WZ-000 turboshaft engines (a copy of Turboméca Turmo IIIC) with a capacity of 6 hp each. With. Maximum flight speed - 1 km / h, cruising - 156 km / h, flight range - 250 km.

The PLA operated both amphibious variants and those that cannot land on water.

The production of Z-8 helicopters was not carried out at a high pace (no more than 7 helicopters were assembled per year). To date, approximately 110 helicopters of this type have been built.

In 2018, the PLA Army Aviation Command announced that it would begin phasing out the Z-8 due to poor performance and high operating costs.

Helicopter Z-9


In July 1980, the Harbin Aircraft Manufacturing Corporation (HAMS) entered into an agreement with the French company Aerospatiale to assemble 50 AS 365N Dauphin II multi-purpose helicopters from French parts. In China, this machine received the designation Z-9. The first helicopters of this type were assembled in China in 1981.


One of the first Z-9 helicopters

In 1994, the Z-9B helicopter was adopted, assembled mainly from parts made in China. The mass production of this helicopter made it possible to begin replacing the hopelessly outdated Z-5.

Very streamlined shape combined with two WZ-8 engines (a copy of Turbomeca Arriel 2) with up to 830 hp. With. provide a flight speed of up to 306 km / h. The maximum takeoff weight is 3 kg. Flight range - 900 km.

The Z-9B helicopter was a significant step forward for the PLA army aviation, it could carry out the tasks of transporting 8-10 armed fighters, rescue, communications, and command and control. Soon an armed variant appeared, capable of providing fire support to ground units. For this, blocks with 57–90 mm NAR, containers with 12,7 mm machine guns and 23 mm cannons could be suspended.

In the future, a licensed copy of the French helicopter has undergone a major revision. Modification Z-9W was the first anti-tank helicopter created in China. For the first time, a variant equipped with four HJ-8E ATGMs and a sighting and surveillance gyro-stabilized system installed in the upper part of the cockpit was demonstrated in 1998.


Helicopters Z-9W

However, it is impossible to call the Z-9W a full-fledged attack helicopter due to its low survivability. Rather, it is a transport-combat vehicle with some anti-tank capabilities.

In 2011, the Z-9WA modification was officially introduced, designed for operations at night. The helicopter is equipped with a night vision system and a new laser rangefinder-designator. The crew got multifunctional flat displays and a system for displaying information on the windshield. The armament of the Z-9WA included the HJ-9 ATGM with laser guidance.

The real characteristics of the latest modifications of the Z-9, intended for "internal consumption", are not reliably known. Since 2003, deliveries of helicopters with Chinese-made engines with a takeoff power of 980 hp have begun. With. Despite the expiration of the license agreement, the serial construction of multifunctional helicopters based on the French Dolphin continues, which has become the subject of disputes between France and China.

Helicopter Z-10


Unlike the USSR and the United States, during the Cold War, the PLA did not have specialized attack helicopters. The development of rotorcraft of this class from scratch requires certain scientific and technical developments and the availability of a design school, and the leadership of the PRC, as part of friendship with the West against the Soviet Union, hoped for foreign assistance.

Chinese generals wanted to get a combat helicopter capable of fighting tanks and provide fire support day and night, in difficult weather conditions. In the second half of the 1980s, the Chinese hoped to get access to the A.129 Mangusta anti-tank helicopter being developed in Italy, and in 1988 an agreement was reached with the Americans on the sale of the AH-1 Cobra (not implemented due to the imposition of sanctions against China) and licenses for production of ATGM BGM-71 TOW. Shortly before the events in Tiananmen Square, France delivered a small batch of SA anti-tank helicopters to China. 342 Gazelle with ATGM NOT.

After the normalization of relations between Russia and China, an export Mi-35 was offered. However, by that time, Chinese experts had already become familiar with the widespread Mi-25 (an export version of the Mi-24D combat helicopter) and considered it too heavy and bulky. In addition, the aiming and search systems of Soviet combat helicopters were largely outdated by that time. And the Mi-24 itself, created as a "flying infantry fighting vehicle", was more often used as an attack aircraft, mainly weapons which had unguided rockets, and the PLA command wanted to be armed with a maneuverable and at the same time well-protected two-seater, comparable to the American Apache and having a high anti-tank potential.

As a result, it was decided to design a combat helicopter independently, using the most successful foreign developments.

The program for the creation of a combat helicopter in the PRC was strictly classified, and strictly dosed conflicting data were given in the media. This was largely due to the fact that the provision of military technology to China was prohibited due to sanctions imposed by the United States after the events in Tiananmen Square, and the creation and supply of a number of key components and assemblies by European and American companies was motivated by civilian projects. All equipment ordered in the West was allegedly intended for a medium-class civilian helicopter.

The Chinese managed to mislead "Western partners" for about 10 years. Thus, Eurocopter and Agusta received more than $100 million for assistance in the development of the transmission, control system and five-blade main rotor. The helicopter cockpit parts and avionics largely repeat the products of Thomson CSF and Thales. The Chinese attack helicopter, designated the Z-10, uses the American MIL-STD-1553 data bus.

The media published information that the Z-10 used a sighting and surveillance system created by the South African company Advanced Technologies and Engineering (ATE). United Technologies, a subsidiary of Pratt & Whitney Canada, has delivered a batch of PT6C-76C engines to China's Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation (CAIC). However, after the intervention of the US government, United Technologies was fined $ 75 million. The cessation of supplies of American engines somewhat slowed down the process of fine-tuning and adopting the Z-10.

As a result, serial helicopters are equipped with two Chinese Zhuzhou WZ-9 turboshaft engines with a takeoff power of 1 hp. With.

In addition to Western assistance, in 1995 a secret agreement was concluded with the Russian side, according to which the Kamov Design Bureau and CAIC created a joint design team that worked on a catalog of drawings for 2,5 years. According to a representative of the Russian company, the engineering and calculation group of the Kamov Design Bureau carried out design work in accordance with the parameters and layout proposed by the Chinese side.

In parallel with legal and semi-legal deliveries from the West and Russian design support, Chinese technical intelligence was actively collecting information regarding the AN-64A Apache and PAH-2 (HAP) Tiger helicopters.

So, on the Chinese Z-10 helicopter, a helmet-mounted aiming system is used, similar to the American Honeywell M142 Integrated Helmet. Flights at night are provided with equipment built on the basis of French and Israeli developments.


Combat helicopter Z-10

Thus, the Z-10 helicopter has become a conglomerate of Western components and technologies, but at the same time it was created by Chinese specialists, and, unlike the Z-9, it is not initially based on a foreign design. Photos of the Z-10 in flight appeared in 2006.

According to Western experts, the capabilities of the Z-10 helicopter crew in terms of searching for targets and using guided weapons roughly correspond to the American An-64A helicopter. However, the security of the Chinese helicopter is inferior to American and Russian vehicles of this class. At the same time, the Z-10 is equipped with all the necessary equipment for counteracting air defense systems and sensors for detecting radar and laser radiation.

Western experts say that the equipment installed on Chinese vehicles is comparable to the analogues available on Apaches, Mongooses and Tigers. If Chinese combat helicopters are still inferior to modern foreign attack rotorcraft in ballistic protection and weight perfection, then there is no reason to doubt the level of Chinese electronics. The airborne self-defense system, known as the YH-96, automatically analyzes possible threats and, if necessary, can independently generate interference and shoot thermal and radar traps. Navigation is provided by Beidou satellite positioning system signal receivers.

According to information voiced in the Chinese media, some of the Z-10 helicopters are equipped with millimeter-wave radar. Allegedly, this station is in no way inferior to the American AN / APG-78 Longbow. The Chinese radar, known as the YH MMZ FCR, weighs about 70 kg, which is significantly less than the mass of the Arbalet radar used on the Mi-28N.

The flight data of the Z-10 combat helicopter is not known for certain. Apparently, the maximum takeoff weight is in the range of 6–700 kg. Based on the ratio of power plant power and mass, it can be assumed that the maximum speed of the helicopter is about 7000 km/h, and the rate of climb is 300 m/s. According to information published in the Chinese media: the flight range exceeds 10 km, and a combat load weighing 800 kg can be placed on external hardpoints.


The Z-10 helicopter is armed with a mobile artillery mount with a 23 mm cannon. However, the Chinese military is not satisfied with the power of the 23-mm projectile, and therefore it was decided to use a 25-mm cannon, created on the basis of the American M242 Bushmaster.

Units with 57–90 mm NAR caliber 57–90 mm, containers with 7,62 mm, 12,7 mm or 14,5 mm multi-barreled machine guns or 35–40 mm can be placed on four external hardpoints automatic grenade launchers. TY-90 missiles with a launch range of up to 8 km or PL-7 and PL-9 with a range of up to 15 km are designed to combat an air enemy. However, the HJ-10 guided missiles are considered the main weapon. Western reference books write that this missile is the Chinese analogue of the AGM-114 Hellfire ATGM.

The number of Z-10 helicopters available in the PLA army aviation is not exactly known. But according to a calculation made on the basis of freely available satellite images, there may be about 120 units.


Satellite image of Google Earth: a Z-10 helicopter with an overhead radar at Baoding Air Base

In addition, information was announced that specially modified Z-10s, along with the Z-8s, were included in the air groups based on the Type 071 amphibious assault ships and are intended for fire support of the landing.

It is known about a new modification of the Chinese combat helicopter Z-10 with an engine capable of providing power up to 1 hp on takeoff. With. With the same geometric dimensions, the maximum takeoff weight of the upgraded Z-800 can reach 10 kg. That is, to approach this indicator closely to the "Apache". Apparently, the reserve capacity will be used to increase security, combat load and fuel tank capacity.

Helicopter Z-11


In the second half of the 1980s, a license was transferred to China for the production of the Eurocopter AS.350 Ecureuil helicopter. Production of the French "Ecurey" began in 1977, and this very successful light helicopter was popular with buyers in different countries.

The first flight of the Chinese "Ekurey", which received the designation Z-11, took place in 1998. At first, when assembling light helicopters, French Turbomeca Arriel 2B engines with an 847 horsepower were installed. With. But later they were replaced by Chinese WZ-8D.


Helicopter Z-11

Initially, the Z-11 was used as a "flying ambulance", to deliver urgent correspondence and VIPs. Since the Chinese army was in dire need of helicopters for reconnaissance, observation and adjustment of artillery fire, artillery observers and radio stations were mounted on several machines to communicate with ground units.

In 2005, the Z-11W entered service, intended mainly for special operations forces. The helicopter has a sighting system located above the cockpit and is armed with four HJ-8 ATGMs. Instead of guided missiles, six-barreled 7,62 mm CS / LM12 machine guns, 40 mm LG3 automatic grenade launchers or blocks with 57 mm NAR can be suspended. The total weight of the combat load reaches 450 kg.

The helicopter with a maximum takeoff weight of 2 kg can accommodate two pilots and three paratroopers. In the fire support variant, an additional fuel tank with a capacity of 200 l can be installed in the passenger compartment. Without the use of an additional fuel tank, the flight range is 225 km. The maximum flight speed is 580 km / h. Cruising - 278 km / h.


Helicopter Z-11WB

Light combat helicopter Z-11WB is equipped with a movable thermal imaging camera and a laser rangefinder-target designator. This machine is capable of carrying a wide range of weapons: laser, thermal and television-guided missiles, FT-9 and YZ-212D small-sized guided bombs, TY-90 air-to-air missiles and a variety of machine-gun and cannon containers. The export value of a light attack helicopter capable of fighting at night, equipped with advanced optoelectronic equipment and modern weapons systems, is about $10 million, which makes it attractive to poor countries.

Helicopter Z-19


Simultaneously with the creation of the Z-10 attack helicopter in China, they decided to play it safe and, on the basis of a fairly well-mastered Z-9, make a relatively light reconnaissance and strike vehicle. Compared to the weakly protected Z-9W armed with ATGMs, the new two-seat Z-19 is better suited for aerial reconnaissance and ground strikes. At the same time, the risk of failure, compared with the Z-10 created from scratch, was much less.

The rejection of the passenger cabin while maintaining the same flight data and maximum takeoff weight made it possible to improve the security and the number of weapons on board. With the old power plant, the Z-19 helicopter became shorter by about 1,5 m. It had a narrower fuselage and a tandem cockpit.


Helicopter Z-19

The first flight of the Z-19, developed by Harbin Aircraft Manufacturing Corporation (HAMC), took place in May 2010. Since the Z-19 largely used the well-developed components and assemblies of the Z-9 helicopter and the avionics already tested on the first prototypes of the Z-10, the tests went very quickly. Despite the fact that the head prototype of the Z-19 was broken in September 2010, military tests of the first pre-production batch began in 2011.

Thanks to the fenestron-type tail rotor and a number of noise reduction measures, the acoustic visibility of the Z-19 is much lower than that of many other combat helicopters. In addition, the thermal and radar visibility is reduced compared to the Z-9.

The Z-19 does not have a movable cannon turret, instead there is a ball with optoelectronic aiming and search equipment and night vision devices, as well as a laser rangefinder-target designator. To fend off various kinds of threats, the attack and reconnaissance helicopter is equipped with sensors and defensive systems similar to those used on the Z-10.


The Z-19 helicopter is capable of carrying a wide range of weapons, including laser-guided ATGMs, NAR units and suspended machine gun and cannon containers. The weight of the combat load on external nodes was not officially announced, but according to expert estimates, it can reach 700–800 kg.


Helicopter Z-19 with over-hub radar

There are pictures of the Z-19 with a millimeter-wave over-hull radar and an HJ-10 ATGM. The same radar station is designed for installation on Z-10 combat helicopters.

There is no information about the security of the helicopter. It can be assumed that the cockpit and the most important parts of the Z-19 can withstand the shelling of rifle-caliber bullets.

The flight data of the Z-19 is at the level of the armed version of the Z-9. A helicopter with a maximum takeoff weight of 4 kg, with a full fuel tank, is capable of staying in the air for 500 hours. During this time, he can fly about 4 km.

The maximum flight speed is 280 km / h. Cruising - 240 km / h. The power plant consists of two WZ-8C turboshaft engines with an HP 940 power. With.

At present, more than a hundred Z-19 light reconnaissance and attack helicopters have been delivered to the Chinese armed forces. Often they enter mixed helicopter crews, where the Z-10 is also operated.

To be continued ...
55 comments
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  1. +9
    9 December 2022 06: 43
    hi
    As always, like the article!
    One consolation is that in terms of attack helicopters, the PRC also has several options and not everything is so good with multi-purpose "middle class" ones - since our Mi171s are also found there in large numbers ...
    1. +5
      9 December 2022 07: 06
      Quote: Wildcat
      hi
      As always, like the article!
      One consolation is that in terms of attack helicopters, the PRC also has several options and not everything is so good with multi-purpose "middle class" ones - since our Mi171s are also found there in large numbers ...

      Yes, this author pleases! Too bad he doesn't write much.
      As for Chinese helicopters, over time, China will also have its own designs.
    2. +8
      9 December 2022 09: 07
      Greetings!
      Quote: Wildcat
      As always, like the article!

      drinks
      Quote: Wildcat
      One consolation is that in terms of attack helicopters, the PRC also has several options and not everything is so good with multi-purpose "middle class" ones - since our Mi171s are also found there in large numbers ...

      I did not begin to talk about these machines, since the Chinese "swear by their mother" that these are their own developments. Although the features of foreign helicopters are clearly visible.

      Z-18

      Z-20
      1. +5
        9 December 2022 10: 17
        I agree, the Black Hawk is hard to miss. But since they swear by "mother" - it means not him! winked
        Probably, for the time being, in terms of quality, it's like "branded pants, but only with ali-express."

        By the way, your assumption that the Polish Newa-SC will go to Ukraine was completely confirmed this week. There is even a photo.
        1. +4
          9 December 2022 11: 21
          Who, here, prevents the Russian Federation from copying equipment like that? Take "Robinson" at least .... Ansat has been used for so long, and there is no theater for it. We don’t copy anything, in a small size there are a lot of TVDs 30-20 years old.
          1. +4
            9 December 2022 11: 58
            Who, here, prevents the Russian Federation from copying equipment like that?

            Yes, you do not need to copy the "technique". All that was needed was an electronic filling. REO, armament, thoughtful universal tire for modifications. Mi-24 and Mi-8 (from the MT series with TV3-117) are masterpieces. Mi-6 even now resume the "old man" - try to block his world records.
            Apache is "light and nimble"? "Don't tell my horseshoes" - he has already crept up to the Mi-24 in terms of weight, inferior in engine power. The fact that less than 11 tons is not needed in the army. Unless "drones" and roll the general's secretaries on picnics.
            They started some nonsense with the Mi-28 and Ka-52, having in fact received gliders with the characteristics of the ancient 24-ki. There was no place to put forces and money? Yes, even if they bought rockets and equipment from the Jews and put them on the 24th and the GXNUMX, since their production was completely ruined.
            1. +2
              9 December 2022 12: 02
              New versions of Apache are planned with a 3300ls TVD
              1. +2
                9 December 2022 12: 16
                New versions of Apache are planned with a 3300ls TVD

                "They are planning." And at what cost? Weight and dimensions of engines, gearbox, transmission, fuel for this luxury? Let's say they turn out. Who bothered us? 40 years have passed. 40! As a result, we stand still, but already with three motley identical ones.
                1. +1
                  9 December 2022 12: 20
                  Don't know. In the next generation, TVD 3300ls was announced. Clear-red, that the rest will increase. So that the size will be similar to the Mi28.
                  1. -3
                    9 December 2022 15: 28
                    that's it, just that - size
                    what about booking Chinese turntables, especially drums (?)
                    if there is, they only hold 7,62x39 or 5,45x39
                    7,62x54 is already in question
                    12,7 and 14,5 mm is already hard
                    our Mi-28 and Ka-52 armored capsules hold 30-mm shells at angles
                    1. +1
                      10 December 2022 22: 53
                      My young friend, you need to know the concept. If this is a PT helicopter, then this is a modern analogue of the Cobra .... Armor now, even on machines like A10 and Su25, does not save from modern systems. And puts them on the brink of survival. The Apache was also a light anti-tank helicopter, apparently they decided to add armor to it.
              2. -3
                10 December 2022 12: 00
                This is a total of two engines. Now 3000 hp.
            2. +1
              10 December 2022 21: 13
              Quote: dauria
              There was no place to put forces and money?

              In the USSR, yes - there was enough money for everything, and even for such expensive experiments.
            3. +2
              10 December 2022 23: 31
              Yes, it needs to end. We do not succeed in a tender, we order two helicopters of the same type from different offices. And with the Su30-34-35 the same song. Well, at least we’re starting to make tanks in a bunch one
              1. 0
                28 June 2023 12: 06
                Well, do you want to cancel the competition? Two little pigs eat more vigorously.
          2. The comment was deleted.
        2. +3
          9 December 2022 16: 27
          Quote: Wildcat
          By the way, your assumption that the Polish Newa-SC will go to Ukraine was completely confirmed this week. There is even a photo.

          It was quite predictable. Yes
          1. +3
            10 December 2022 03: 15
            hi
            From the unexpected: the Armed Forces of Ukraine suddenly found single-barrel MZA installations. A photo of at least 3 installations in trucks was posted on the friendly forum Lostarmore, identified as the Yugoslav M55 (IMHO, it seems that only the "upper store" is not a drum type, but flat). With a sight (TV?) Attached just now with a large screen.

            From the expected: "the Germans are coming out of the coma gradually" and they are already preparing their 35 mm with a programmer / AHEAD (Mantis / Skynex) for Ukraine. It is not clear how much and in what version - on trucks, on a Boxer or a shelter type - only the amount of 182 million cu is indicated. and delivery time - 2024.
            "Rheinmetall will manufacture two Skynex air defense systems for Ukraine. The company confirmed the order on Friday, but did not name the recipient country for the cars. According to information from government circles, this is Ukraine. Delivery of the systems is scheduled for early 2024.
            Skynex is designed for short-range air defense. Like the Gepard anti-aircraft tank, already delivered to Ukraine by Germany, the system shoots down attacking drones or cruise missiles with 35 mm ammunition.
            Compared to other systems, Skynex offers a financial advantage: while the price per unit of defensive missiles is between 300 and 000 euros, according to industry circles, it has been said that it costs about 500 euros to shoot down an aircraft with a Rheinmetall system.
            "https://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/industrie/ruestungsindustrie-rheinmetall-baut-neue-skynex-flugabwehr-fuer-die-ukraine/28859200.html
            IMHO, they had Mantis on conservation after Afghanistan, but, apparently, they left it ready for themselves.
  2. +9
    9 December 2022 07: 58
    Good morning friends! smile

    Thanks to Sergey for the detailed article, although the turntables are not my topic, it was very interesting to read how the Chinese "brothers forever" got out of the ass in which they put themselves. laughing
    Chinese designers illegally borrowed technical components, assemblies and on-board systems of foreign helicopters.

    But I was not at all surprised at this, because a long time ago I read about how the USSR handed over our type 7 destroyers ("sevens") to the PRC, and the Chinese, having dismantled one ship to the screws, literally re-created the technology. They did the same with our "Pike". This is how much patience and what nerves you need to have! Awesome people! wassat
    1. +6
      9 December 2022 08: 53
      Kstya, hello!
      Quote: Sea Cat
      This is how much patience and what nerves you need to have! Awesome people!

      Diligence and discipline the Chinese certainly do not hold! Yes But, it should also be understood that without an adequate management system, even the most hardworking people can do little.
      1. +6
        9 December 2022 09: 55
        Hello Sergey! smile

        The whole question is which system is adequate for which people. wassat . I do not know what system would suit our people, but judging by myself, I can say that in my seventy-somethings I have not been able to notice anything really suitable.
        Many yearn for the Union, not realizing that the system that led itself to self-destruction could not be adequate, but ... as a rule, they choose the lesser of all evils.
        How can one not recall Nikolai Alexandrovich here: "There were worse times, but there were no meaner ones." request

        Big hello to Olga! smile love
        1. +5
          9 December 2022 10: 12
          Quote: Sea Cat
          I do not know what system would suit our people, but judging by myself, I can say that in my seventy-somethings I have not been able to notice anything really suitable.

          In my opinion, an adequate system is where the government lives according to the laws that it itself adopts, and where this government can be replaced by peaceful means. However, judging by recent events, things are not going well in China either. Theirnius Xi, looking at our Pu, also decided to rule for life. And this, as history shows, can ultimately greatly reduce the life of the permanent leader and is detrimental to the country.
          Quote: Sea Cat
          Big hello to Olga!

          Thank you! I'll pass it on! We have finally moved into a new apartment. We are gradually getting used to it.
          1. +3
            9 December 2022 10: 18
            We have finally moved into a new apartment. We are gradually getting used to it.


            Happy for you! Housewarming! love good drinks
    2. +4
      9 December 2022 10: 16
      I join the kind words about the work of Sergey! I like to read something new. Thank you!
    3. +3
      9 December 2022 16: 37
      However, even after the "parting" with the USSR, specialists from the PRC for a long time had little that they could create on their own!
      They were "lucky" that the Yankees decided to "quietly" reforge the Chinese by "throwing them a bone of Western technologies"!
      Only the Yankees forgot about the "bulldog grip" of the Chinese in terms of training and stealing technology!
      After Tiananmen Square, the White House "stood up"!
      It was just too late...
      Production moved or moved to China!!!
  3. +2
    9 December 2022 08: 02
    The article is great as always, I only have one question - how could the Z-10 be shown for the first time in 2006, if the Battlefield 2005 computer game was released back in 2, where it was already presented ...
    1. +8
      9 December 2022 08: 50
      Hello!
      Quote: parma
      I have only one question - how could the Z-10 be shown for the first time in 2006, if the computer game Battlefield 2005 was released back in 2, where it was already presented ...

      Insider information about this car appeared before, but sufficiently high-quality photos were published in 2006. To be fair, Battlefield 2 only features a helicopter that bears a resemblance to the Z-10.
  4. -2
    9 December 2022 08: 23
    The participation of the Kamov company in the Z-9 project was missed.
    1. +8
      9 December 2022 08: 46
      Quote: Pavel57
      The participation of the Kamov company in the Z-9 project was missed.

      What does the Kamov company have to do with the Z-9 helicopter, which is a sinicized copy of the French AS 365N Dauphin II?
      1. +2
        9 December 2022 09: 06
        Exactly, Kamov is related to the WZ-10 project.
        1. +8
          9 December 2022 09: 11
          Quote: Pavel57
          Exactly, Kamov is related to the WZ-10 project.

          Do you mean the impact Z-10? Here's what the post says about it:
          in 1995, a secret agreement was concluded with the Russian side, according to which the Kamov Design Bureau and CAIC created a joint design team that worked on a catalog of drawings for 2,5 years. According to a representative of the Russian company, the engineering and calculation group of the Kamov Design Bureau carried out design work in accordance with the parameters and layout scheme proposed by the Chinese side ...
          1. +4
            9 December 2022 09: 46
            Missed this paragraph. Everything is in the article.
  5. +2
    9 December 2022 09: 07
    China will not be left without helicopters ...
  6. +1
    9 December 2022 13: 51
    Quote: Bongo
    我 没有 开始 谈论 这些 , 因为 中国人 中国人 以 的 母亲 发誓 发誓 , 是 他们 自己 的。 虽然 外国 直升机 的 特征 清晰 见。。。。



    You are very angry with the Chinese.

    We never deny that we rely on the proven, unique experience of the United States and Russia. Because we don't have to reinvent the wheel a second time. We do not hesitate to use the best solution for current conditions. Instead of being new and different, as if we were rebellious punks.

    Israel is following the same path, making some improvements in American technology. Why doesn't anyone in the world say that the Jews are a copy, uncreative and imbecile? Rather, they compliment that it is a developed country.
    1. +5
      9 December 2022 16: 17
      Quote from: wanna
      Quote: Bongo
      我 没有 开始 谈论 这些 , 因为 中国人 中国人 以 的 母亲 发誓 发誓 , 是 他们 自己 的。 虽然 外国 直升机 的 特征 清晰 见。。。。

      The site is in Russian, and if you want to be adequately perceived, please write and quote on Russian.
      Quote from: wanna
      You are very angry with the Chinese.

      My Chinese friend, where am I "angry" or lying?
      And why should I be "angry" with the Chinese? Maybe because, unlike Russia, you imprison and execute your high-ranking corrupt officials? Or maybe because you defend your national interests and your government cares about the growth of the welfare of the population? Or maybe because your businessmen work for the good of the country, do not pump out resources and do not transfer capital to Western banks?
      Quote from: wanna
      We never deny that we rely on the proven, unique experience of the United States and Russia. Because we don't have to reinvent the wheel a second time. We do not hesitate to use the best solution for current conditions.

      My dear Chinese friend, where in this publication did you notice the words of condemnation? Do not confuse stating facts with criticism. In my articles, I try to be as objective as possible and not biased. hi
    2. +3
      9 December 2022 16: 51
      Articles are written about your military-industrial complex on VO, but do you consider this an insult?
      Let's not "go into the wilds" of history and "tear the vests on the chest"!
      The first helicopters in China appeared thanks to the USSR!
      Do you want to dispute a fact?
      After the "divergence of opinion" you tried to design yourself.
      Did it work out well???
      After admission to European and American technologies, your production of "helicopters" perked up!
      Or do you disagree?
      Present the "helicopter" developed only in the PRC!
      Or the main tank. How the Jews created the Merkava. What did your tank builders create?
      1. +3
        9 December 2022 18: 37
        Alexey hi , I agree in many respects, only one question - an Israeli-designed engine for the Merkava? I really don't know, shame on my gray head. sad
        1. +3
          9 December 2022 18: 56
          Diesel engines from 1st to 3rd "Chariots" from Teledyne Continental.
          And the 4th Chariot has a GD883 diesel engine from General Dynamics.
          All diesels from USA!
          The "Sons of Israel" have not yet mastered their own design of tank diesel engines.
          Maybe...
          So is the gun of the first and second "Merkava" licensed L-7, the third and fourth have the Israeli product MG251 - 120mm "from Rheinmetal Rh120".
          1. +3
            9 December 2022 19: 24
            All diesels from USA!
            The "Sons of Israel" have not yet mastered their own design of tank diesel engines.

            Yep!!!! And they roll a balloon at the Chinese! am
            1. +3
              9 December 2022 19: 55
              You would know who and how stole the ideas of Vickers-Armstrong in the 30s of the 20th century ...
              Only Russians and Poles paid for licenses!!!
              The French, Yankees, Germans and Co. simply "looked at" the products of the British and, with varying degrees of success, tried to reproduce at home!
              1. +2
                9 December 2022 20: 02
                French, Yankees, Germans and Co.


                But the tanks turned out to be completely different, especially judging by the German ones.
                1. +1
                  9 December 2022 20: 24
                  How many "copies" the Germans broke.
                  How Herr Knipkamp "digged the ground with his hooves" (6th Department of Armaments - was responsible for armored vehicles).
                  He wanted to "bury" the Fourth Panzer two or three times !!!
                  And I had to "bury" his "fast" Deuces E and D and his beloved Troika in 1943.
                  The Americans generally "torn" Vickers 6 tons, but he "did not go" with them.
                  The Japanese wanted to copy the Soviet ShKAS for their aviation - and found out that it was very difficult for their arms industry!
                  1. +2
                    9 December 2022 20: 43
                    The Americans generally "torn" Vickers 6 tons, but he "did not go" with them.

                    "because of the suspension. smile They didn’t go. In general, when testing a prototype, they hung a sign on it “BE GOOD TO YOUR TANK” (BE GOOD TO YOUR TANK))))))).
                    1. +2
                      9 December 2022 21: 08
                      I recommend - an article with Zen by Yuri Pasholok
                      "American Vickers Mk.E clone, mindless and merciless:
                      February 27 2021
                      "Light Tank T1E4 and T1E6, unobtrusive copying of the Vickers Mk.E with patenting of the stolen"
                      The Yankees patented the "six-ton" Vickers suspension as their own ...
                      1. +2
                        9 December 2022 21: 52
                        The photo that I posted above is from this article. smile
                        The Yankees patented the "six-ton" Vickers suspension as their own ...

                        Well, the suspension is also from there.
    3. +3
      9 December 2022 18: 35
      Good evening, colleague. hi

      uncreative and imbecile

      What are you talking about, here no one has ever called the Chinese people imbeciles, or anything similar. Such insults are not at all in the spirit of our site, and to accuse the author of this article of bias is completely nonsense.
      Let's be friends and do without far-fetched accusations. smile drinks
    4. 0
      15 December 2022 08: 56
      We don't get angry. China's approach to design by copying is a normal, adequate process that is used around the world, by and large. The Soviet Union built the Red Army in the 20s on this, and, for example, the MiG-15 engine was nothing more than a British Rolls-Royce. On the contrary, I am amazed at the pace of development of the Chinese military-industrial complex and the presence of truly unique samples of the BMP type for the marines.
  7. +2
    9 December 2022 20: 08
    Judging by the photos and appearance

    All phones are now copies of Apple
    1. +2
      9 December 2022 21: 35
      Apples are all the same in structure.
      However, they differ in size, weight, color and taste from each other!
      So is the technique. It looks the same, but inside their own "cockroaches live" !!!
      Before World War II, the Japanese copied a lot of things without a license!
      For the USSR, the recipe for the first washing powder was obtained by economic intelligence!
      Nobody is blaming you for anything!
    2. 0
      9 December 2022 21: 36
      Apples are all the same in structure.
      However, they differ in size, weight, color and taste from each other!
      So is the technique. It looks the same, but inside their own "cockroaches live" !!!
      Before World War II, the Japanese copied a lot of things without a license!
      For the USSR, the recipe for the first washing powder was obtained by economic intelligence!
      Nobody is blaming you for anything!
    3. 0
      9 December 2022 21: 37
      Apples (real fruits) are all the same in structure.
      However, they differ in size, weight, color and taste from each other!
      So is the technique. It looks the same, but inside their own "cockroaches live" !!!
      Before World War II, the Japanese copied a lot of things without a license!
      For the USSR, the recipe for the first washing powder was obtained by economic intelligence!
      Nobody is blaming you for anything!
      1. +1
        11 December 2022 12: 11
        I understand what you mean.

        What I'm trying to say is that we can easily access the human brain and its experience.

        But these are products of a complex industry that cannot be reproduced. Because it will require building a lot of factories located upstream. This is a huge investment and very wasteful. Because by the time you've spent twenty years creating all the conditions for replication, this product is already outdated.


        The Chinese are clearly not stupid enough to copy. We are like a sponge soaking up everything that surrounds us, but we are definitely not stupid enough to copy.
        1. +2
          11 December 2022 14: 22
          Why do you stubbornly deny copying products or technologies?
          Everyone was doing this. All! Since the dawn of humanity!
          Now the PRC industry has reached a level where there are scientific personnel and a technical base for the development and production of their own products!
          So make your original products! Helicopters, ships and ships, household appliances and spacecraft.
          And do not fall into various complexes ... "knocking your heel in the chest" !!!
  8. +2
    9 December 2022 21: 57
    Quote: Zaurbek
    Who, here, prevents the Russian Federation from copying equipment like that? Take "Robinson" at least .... Ansat has been used for so long, and there is no theater for it. We don’t copy anything, in a small size there are a lot of TVDs 30-20 years old.

    The absence of a copier, namely machine tool building, engine building, electronics industry, modern materials, etc. With the remnants of Soviet industry, it is possible to copy only the developments of the time of the USSR, and even then not all.
  9. 0
    10 December 2022 07: 03
    Greetings! Thank you for the article. Do you think the Z-10 is a better and stronger model? And how will it look against the backdrop of HAL Prachand?
  10. 0
    10 December 2022 23: 16
    There are many helicopters. We also have enough. The problems are the same for everyone. Loads of cars here and there. It's time to close the circle. To each his place.