BMP-3. Long-awaited protection from... the past

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BMP-3. Long-awaited protection from... the past

November 11 the news there was a message that Kurganmashzavod began to install the latest dynamic protection on the BMP-3. All this was covered during a visit to the plant by Deputy Chairman of the Security Council Dmitry Medvedev. Naturally, all this was taught as a thoughtful concern for our Army, which is fighting in Ukraine.

Well, that's noble. It is perceived positively.



How was it received by the Army itself? Sad smile.

Does the old proverb that “until the thunder breaks out, the Russian peasant does not cross himself” lives so strongly in our genetic code? Or is this a simple excuse, and the whole point is in elementary ill-conceivedness and, again, in primordially Russian “it will do”?

Well, of course, an attentive lover of the “zomboyaschik” will object, because it was only in September of this year that the news announced the creation of this newest armor! There was even a video from the Alabino training ground with the shelling of a DZ block with a 4S24 element with a PG-7VS shot!



And now, in November, they put it on the BMP-3. In just two months. Well, what are you really talking about "everything is lost"! See how well the tower will now be protected. Five mounts to the right and left of the gun pair.


And the head of the GABTU of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, Major General Shestakov, said that additional protection kits were also created for the BMP-2, BTR-82A, BTR-80 and more:

"... deliveries of these complexes to the troops are ensured, primarily to the areas of the special military operation ..."

(RIA Novosti 11.11.2022)

Something like this was told to me by one television patriotic comrade. Not a bad person, in principle, an ordinary civilian who draws information from the most mass sources.

The very first question I asked him puzzled him a little:

Why just the tower? Will they put it on the body too?

– I don’t know… The news only talked about the tower.

Looked. And exactly. Everywhere only about the tower. Well, maybe it's just that one journalist did not listen to the end, while others "sang" his words. It's normal for them.

How do you know about the corpus?

– So this development is already 20 years old.

- Twenty?

Not so long ago, I published material on the VO about the dynamic protection of domestic armored vehicles. It was covered in great detail. story its creation, theory of application and practice in the form complexesstanding on equipping our tanks.

Already at the very end of the article, a small amount of material was collected about KDZ for light armored vehicles. It was really short, since the size of the article already exceeded all limits, and these complexes did not appear in the Russian troops.

Now it's time to remember about the "newest" protection, announced in September of this year...

By the beginning of the 2006st century, various “tank” KDZs had long been in service in Russia. This is both "Contact" and "Contact-V", in XNUMX "Relic" went into the series.

Was there a question about equipping DZ light armored vehicles?

Undoubtedly. But it was impossible to simply take and rearrange the developed blocks on the BMP. The very composition of the armor, and most importantly its thickness, did not allow this.

With the joint detonation of the EDZ with the PTS, the armor of the armored object received serious damage, and the superimposed shock waves inflicted an almost “open” shell shock to the crew and landing force.


BMP-2 board with a standard DZ unit after firing from an RPG-7


The PG-9V grenade smashed the left block of sections from the "classic" EDZ 4S20. Photo: Research Institute of Steel

We needed other elements of explosives and a different principle of countering cumulative ammunition.

This element was the EDZ 4S24. It contains two times less explosives, providing the same level of anti-cumulative protection as 4S20 KDZ "Contact".

To prevent destruction of the lightly armored hull, dynamic protection elements are located in a container between layers of foamed polymer material, which ensures smooth braking of metal plates scattered by detonation, which destroy the armor of light armored vehicles. But the plates at the same time continue to fulfill their main purpose - they “cut” the cumulative jet, reducing its penetrating ability.

By the way, this solution turned out to be effective in another issue - when a certain KDZ block is initiated, its “neighbors” do not detonate, as happened in the Kontakt KDZ.


Tests of KDZ with 4S24 elements on the BMP-3

In the developed KDZ for light armored vehicles, it was possible to ensure not the transfer of detonation between the elements of dynamic protection, but most importantly, protection against slippage of the leading part of the cumulative jet.

The risk of slippage of the leading part of the jet can be reduced by using highly sensitive explosives, but this increases the risk of EDZ ignition when fired by heavy machine guns or detonation when exposed to 23-30 mm rounds. The Research Institute of Steel managed to solve these problems and bind the unbound in this complex.

But why are blocks for LBT much larger than classic "tank" blocks? Is it only because of a special, "braking" filler?

Not really. More precisely, not at all.


If we recall the theory of the effectiveness of countering the DZ to the action of a shaped charge (described it in the article by reference), then the cumulative jet receives the greatest destruction when it meets the EPD at an angle of 68–70 degrees. It is at this angle of "meeting" that the armor penetration of the "intruder" drops by 75%.

Remember tank turrets equipped with remote sensing - that's exactly the "angle" of two blocks and creates the most effective angle of encounter with ammunition.

And on VLD dynamic protection is laid close to 68 degrees.

Even inside the KDZ "Contact" block, two EDZ 4S20 missile plates are located at an angle to each other, both to cover the space between adjacent blocks and to increase the likelihood of a cumulative jet meeting at the most effective destructive angle.


Element 4S20 KDZ "Contact"

By the way, in the late 80s and early 90s, the Kontakt KDZ was mounted on the T-72 tower in different ways. On the T-72A, they were attached precisely at an angle to a structure welded to the tank.


T-72AV with KDZ "Contact"

And on the T-72B, they were simply installed on the tower to meet with the cumulative at an ineffective angle of 90 degrees.


T-72B with KDZ "Contact"

The fact is that the T-72A (object 172M) and the T-72B (object 184) were fundamentally different from each other, including seriously in terms of booking.

At that time, it was believed that the T-72A needed the maximum possible protection against the action of a cumulative ammunition, and for the T-72B it would even be ... redundant. Well, as for me, there is never a lot of protection on a tank, they could hang it with a “corner”. Well, who asks us, fuel oil? Nobody.

No, I'm not going away from the topic by turning to my own tanks, it's just that the meaning of the layout of the EDZ in the block for lightly armored vehicles will be clear. They are placed exactly at the maximum possible effective angle for the destruction of the cumulative jet.
A sort of “side of a triangle” inside the block itself.


Photo: BTVT.narod.ru

All this was akin to a revolution in the protection of light armored vehicles. And this miracle was developed in the early 2000s. And even (!) Adopted in 2006.

The following KDZs were designed at the Research Institute of Steel on the basis of the 4C24 element:

"Frame" and "Frame-2" for BMP-3,
"Berezhok" for BMP-2,
"Typhon" for BTR-90.



The well-known photo of the EDZ 4S24 test on the BTR-90

These complexes provide very decent protection against a monoblock cumulative shot of any weapons. However ... for unknown fabulous reasons, these KDZ did not appear in the troops. Although they were mass-produced and ... delivered abroad.
Ага.

The fact is that, as in the case of the creation and birth of the Pantsir air defense system, the glorious Arabs managed to accidentally benefit our military-industrial complex and the country's defense. While the specialists of SKBM and the masters of Kurganmashzavod were bringing to mind the BMP-3 BMP-XNUMX, which were damp at that time (frankly speaking), delivered in the UAE, the children of the desert became interested in the developments of the Research Institute of Steel and bought sets of this KDZ for their combat vehicles.

But we are not.

Why? Probably because we did not need such protection.

The whole world feverishly began to equip lightly armored vehicles in DZ. In America, it is decorated with Bradley infantry fighting vehicles and M113 and Stryker armored personnel carriers. The Germans dress "Puma", and the impudent Saxons "Warrior". And this is the BMP.


M2 Bradley body kit KDZ

Italy, France, Israel, Spain, Poland can boast of having protection for "light ladies".

In the West, the requirements for the protection of the LME are defined by special standards. One of them - the NATO Standard "LME Protection Levels" (STANAG 4569 "Protection Level for Occupants of Logistic and Light Armored Vehicles") - defines 5 levels of protection for the LME. The maximum level 5 provides protection against 25 mm APDS projectiles and fragments of high-explosive fragmentation shells.

This standard was adopted in May 2004, but at the moment it has already become obsolete, and many designers of light armored vehicles have already received more serious protection requirements. The requirements for all-round (!) LME protection against 30-mm small-caliber cannon shells, as well as protection against cumulative ammunition with an armor penetration level of up to 400-450 mm, have already begun to be considered basic.

And we have our own way of development. Create and ... do not put in the troops.

Interestingly, but for those who then made SUCH a decision, have they at least inserted a peak now? Well, maybe they at least hiccup?

Ah, I get it. This, the current, DZ complex is the “newest”. How is it different from what was developed 20 years ago? Probably the fact that in the TV box of R & D "Karkas" was called "Cactus". There are no other differences.

I give data on "both" developments in one line, because it makes no sense to compare them, all word for word:

DZ based on EDZ 4S24
Provides increased protection of thinly armored projections from single-block cumulative ammunition.
For BMP-3, the additional protection overlap area:
Hull board 62%
Forehead hull 36%
Tower 70%.
Latticed screens cover the rear projection of the tower and sides with MTO.
The total weight of the set is 4 kg.
Characteristics of element 4S24: Weight 1,36 kg. Dimensions 251,9x131,9x13. Efficiency to initiation from -50 to +55 degrees. FROM.
In addition to protection against single-block shaped charges, the complex successfully protects against B-32 armor-piercing bullets, 23-mm BZT shells and 30-mm armor-piercing shells.
The inertness of explosives in 4S24 is chosen in such a way that the blocks do not detonate when hit by BZT bullets, shells up to 30 mm, large-caliber OFS fragments and various incendiary mixtures up to napalm.


That's why the "armored ones" had a sad smile when M.A. Medvedev was shown the "newest" protection.

By the way, on the sides of the hull there really are no bonnets for attaching the KDZ, as on the towers.




Welded to the next visit of the "high" inspector? What year?

I understand that this is now a mockery in my performance, but it categorically seems to me that we, fuel oil and LBT crews, have the right to do so. It will come true from ours, after only 20 years they can only install it on the tower.

What are our infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers riding in Ukraine now?


With nothing.

The fact that KDZ "Contact" blocks are welded is the hull. They are either empty or filled with rubbish. At least some additional protection from bullets, fragments and the hope of a failure in the formation of a cumulative jet.

No sane deputy commander of the unit will put explosives in them.


By the way, what am I, terry fuel oil, why do I include myself in the glorious cohort of BMP crews about KDZ for lightly armored vehicles?

Yes, we just use it too. Yeah.

T-72B3M sample 2016 remember? And the T-80BVM? Have you seen large boxes in the posterolateral part of the tower?


T-72B3M rev. 2016


T-80BWM

These are DZ containers with 4C24 elements, only they are without foamed polymer material between them. This is still tank armor, not infantry fighting vehicles. But the EDS and the principle of placement are the same.


By the way, the Research Institute of Steel claims that these KDZ blocks with 4S24 elements will be extremely effective when closing the sides of the hull of the tanks themselves. Maybe it will be more practical "bags" with the same elements? And even more so current screens?


And we still have a very solid option!

And most often like this:


Nothing has changed since the 90s...

Of course, I am not in a claim to manufacturers, they "set" exactly what they are told and paid for.

So the question is:

whom do you need to come to Uralvagonzavod so that thoughtful (!) KDZ sets are installed on the T-72 (90)?

But suppose whom you need to come to other factories and armored personnel carriers so that KDZ appear on the BMP-2 and BTR-80, even ...

I can not…
82 comments
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  1. +6
    16 November 2022 05: 47
    Where is Arena-M?
    Your comment is too
    1. +10
      16 November 2022 09: 25
      What other Arena-M, at best, budget options for the BMP-3 with bars on the front.

    2. -23
      16 November 2022 09: 46
      You are like children. Everyone dreams of the unrealizable, all these expensive and ineffective KAZs are entertainment for peacetime to be installed on a couple of hundred tanks, war gives birth to craftsmen, soil bags, gratings and other surrogates, but they exist.
    3. MMX
      +6
      16 November 2022 19: 46
      Why. It is replaced on the T-72B3 by an armored rag.
  2. +18
    16 November 2022 06: 08
    During the Second World War, the latest ammunition, it seems for anti-tank rifles, was transferred to the front by planes, almost from an experimental series! So the USSR!
    1. +11
      16 November 2022 09: 32
      For half a year now we have been shouting that we need to "mobilize", in other words, put aside "paper" and other conditionally necessary crap. And the ministries and administrations of most regions do not care, they do not have budgets drank.. mastered. Do they really think that they will be able to escape to the west and there they will be expected, groomed and loved? Or do they expect that the West will come and they will be Gauleiters under it and everything will be great with them?
      1. 0
        16 November 2022 17: 05
        They don't have to run anywhere. To whom is the war, and to whom is the mother dear. If you don't know, they are still fighting for the environment. Experiments on a national scale are being set up.
    2. -15
      16 November 2022 09: 50
      In the Second World War, guns did not have sub-caliber shells, ILs exploded on their own RSs, the skin peeled off the aircraft, a crutch was put on the ILs to imitate a gunner and fought on the T60. All your "experimental" things from the experimental series were raw products and they were thrown away so as not to waste time on field tests, because they had no idea what happened there, for example, firing sparrows from a pistol. Really good things came in series and it never occurred to anyone to throw half-baked.
      1. +10
        16 November 2022 10: 07
        Quote: Victor Sergeev
        In the Second World War, guns did not have sub-caliber shells, ILs exploded on their own RSs, the skin peeled off the aircraft, a crutch was put on the ILs to imitate a gunner and fought on the T60.

        Demonstrated intelligence and knowledge? Glittered naked booty? There were even "coils" for 45 mm, IL-2s were blown up by failed SERIES bombs, like most aircraft in such cases, and poor-quality skin was on SERIES machines, like "crutches". With the T-60, it’s not even a priest, but the ass of ignorance flashed, because this is a mobilization light SERIAL tank on auto units, which by the year 43 had been replaced by no less than a SERIAL T-70.
        Quote: Victor Sergeev
        All your "experimental" things from the experimental series were raw products and they were thrown away so as not to waste time on field tests, because they had no idea what happened there, for example, firing sparrows from a pistol.

        You write some nonsense...
        1. +7
          16 November 2022 11: 02
          so to him! also on the neck to add, a connoisseur of horseradish!
          Ostap waved his arms for a long time and muttered:
          - Connoisseurs! You need to kill such connoisseurs!
          1. +4
            16 November 2022 11: 03
            although, in fairness, only a few coils were given and it was necessary to give a report on the application
            1. +1
              16 November 2022 11: 12
              Quote: novel xnumx
              although, in fairness, only a few coils were given and it was necessary to give a report on the application

              But! Every car or gun. Yes, and they were effective up close ...
              1. +5
                16 November 2022 11: 18
                for a tiger from forty-five it was planned from 200 meters ... the trunk is long ...
                1. +3
                  16 November 2022 11: 33
                  Quote: novel xnumx
                  for a tiger from forty-five it was planned from 200 meters ... the trunk is long ...

                  Life is short! (((
                  1. +2
                    17 November 2022 20: 15
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    Quote: novel xnumx
                    for a tiger from forty-five it was planned from 200 meters ... the trunk is long ...

                    Life is short! (((

                    This is true, but on the other hand, it was possible to mask the forty-five even on a flat field under a bush laughing . She's very small. (By the way, the forty-five was called unofficially "Farewell to the Motherland".)
        2. 0
          17 November 2022 09: 19
          And it is possible for truants, what kind of "coils"?)
          1. +1
            17 November 2022 10: 46
            The first sabots did not have detachable pallets and had a characteristic shape.
            1. +1
              17 November 2022 10: 54
              Understood thanks! Now bb is simpler in design, although there are more types :)
              1. -1
                17 November 2022 10: 57
                Quote from SincerityX
                Understood thanks! Now bb is simpler in design, although there are more types :)

                Not for anything, but about easier, you are mistaken! Detachable pallets already dramatically complicate the design, and there is also plumage, while the old shells, roughly speaking, could be machined on a lathe.
                1. +1
                  17 November 2022 16: 21
                  Yes, I was talking about carbide cores in a copper shirt :) They have a very simple design. Arrows (although at 5.45 these are probably already needles), as well as sub-caliber shells, of course, are more complicated than "coils" :)
                  1. +1
                    23 November 2022 09: 59
                    Quote from SincerityX
                    although at 5.45 it's probably already needles

                    Caliber 5,45 is designed to defeat enemy manpower, and not to break through armor or destroy fortifications. And in general, this is not artillery, but small arms. However, I understood the joke of humor!
      2. +2
        17 November 2022 20: 12
        Quote: Victor Sergeev
        In the Second World War, guns did not have sub-caliber shells, ILs exploded on their own RSs, the skin peeled off the aircraft, a crutch was put on the ILs to imitate a gunner and fought on the T60. All your "experimental" things from the experimental series were raw products and they were thrown away so as not to waste time on field tests, because they had no idea what happened there, for example, firing sparrows from a pistol. Really good things came in series and it never occurred to anyone to throw half-baked.

        As far as I know, the skin peeled off ONLY on the first series of the Yak-3 due to the lightening of the structure. And the skin did not EXPLAIN, but it was torn off by the oncoming air flow during a dive. And the side of the gunner on the IL-2 was first removed because the engine did not pull the increased weight of the aircraft. When the forced AM-1942 began to arrive in 38, a gunner's cockpit was installed, although without circular armor. Even the forced AM-38 did not pull an enlarged armored capsule. Therefore, at the side of the shooter, protection was only at the back. And the T-60, with proper use, showed itself very well. The problem was that at that time they were trying to replace the T-60s with the T-34s, but this is basically IMPOSSIBLE. The same problem was with the Lend-Lease Tetrarchs and M-3 (M-5) Yusov light tanks. (Not to be confused with the M-3 Grand. It is a medium tank.) And the T-60 as a support tank for medium and heavy tanks was very good. The automatic cannon was especially helpful. There was even a case (described in Katukov's memoirs) when only 2 T-60s thwarted the attack of a German infantry battalion and put it to flight. All the same, even a 20mm automatic cannon is a terrible thing against uncovered infantry.
  3. -5
    16 November 2022 06: 16
    . Who needs to come to Uralvagonzavod, so that the T-72 (90) will be equipped with well-thought-out (!) CD sets?
    and what is difficult for anyone? Bandera come, put things in order. Apparently they are waiting for the delegation of the Armed Forces of Ukraine ......
  4. +7
    16 November 2022 06: 37
    I have a question for the author: how do the dz blocks react to being hit by a high-explosive projectile, or a thermobaric munition?
    1. +3
      16 November 2022 07: 55
      no way. Even if the remote control works and the lid is thrown, what useful work will it do? What does she need to reject or dispel?
      1. +3
        16 November 2022 08: 00
        Specifically: blows boxes over a large area, or do they detonate? Maybe there is a photo, video of the results of such shelling?
      2. +2
        16 November 2022 11: 04
        Well, maybe it will weaken the high-explosive action, due to the oncoming wave?
        1. +1
          16 November 2022 11: 14
          oh well)) compare the strength in kPa of the shock wave of a high-explosive projectile and the oncoming explosion of the remote sensing unit. It's like a piston. IMHO, the high-explosive impact is distributed over a much larger area, so it is certainly not possible to compensate for a counter explosion at a local point.
          1. +1
            16 November 2022 11: 35
            So, what's going on there? Land mine / thermal bar undermines the dz on the entire side or only demolishes the body kit dz? And the built-in dz? Is there any data on such attacks somewhere?
    2. +5
      16 November 2022 18: 22
      Quote: Tlauicol
      I have a question for the author: how do the dz blocks react to being hit by a high-explosive projectile, or a thermobaric munition?


      Hello.

      Do you mean about the DIRECT hit of the HE in the KDZ on armored vehicles?

      The question is too general, to answer it unambiguously is "to be mischievous".))

      I'll just try to give some information:
      one). First question:
      What is the cost of EDZ?
      If this is an element 4S20 from KDZ "Kontakt", or 4S22 from KDZ "Kontakt-V", then they are the most "stupid", and detonation of neighboring blocks is unlikely.
      The 4S23 KDZ "Relikt" element is more sensitive, but it is more effective against sub-caliber ammunition and low-velocity cumulative ammunition. But the risk of detonation also increases.
      Element 4S24 is as balanced as possible in this matter.

      By the way, the requirement for the absence of detonation of the entire KDZ when one block was blown up has always been the main one for the Steel Research Institute after the story with Babajanyan.
      Ukraine took a different path, they have the design of KDZ "Knife", "Duplet" with the use of elongated shaped charges and their own requirements for sensitivity to explosives.

      2). Second question:
      WHAT OF?
      30mm or 152mm?
      There are three fundamental questions about the HE shot itself:
      - what caliber
      - what is the angle of the meeting,
      - What is the speed of the meeting of the HE with the armor.

      For example, 30mm OF KDZ will not even notice.
      And a 152mm "Genocide" direct fire shot .... And there it doesn't matter why the crew needs to be scraped off, whether the KDZ detonated or not, it's all the same to scrape off.
      If the speed of meeting a large caliber RP is more than 800 - khan to everything.
      ......
      I can tell you from the practice I have seen that a mortar shot threw the "Contact" without detonating the blocks themselves. The crew is alive, but shell-shocked.

      So we need specifics to try to model the situation.
      1. 0
        16 November 2022 18: 34
        Clearly, too many "ifs".
        Well, let's simulate the most popular product: TBG7 or SPG9 (thermobar), and a land mine 120-125mm. Contact 5 and Relic.
        Although, in principle, you answered with an example. If it was a 120mm mine, then it was strong, and the DZ did not explode with the whole body kit
      2. 0
        17 November 2022 05: 03
        It turns out that DZ will not protect infantry fighting vehicles from 20-30mm guns
        1. +2
          17 November 2022 08: 37
          The DZ should not do this, some additional protection appears there, but the 30mm armor-piercing projectile does not care.
        2. 0
          17 November 2022 10: 19
          Quote: Tlauicol
          It turns out that DZ will not protect infantry fighting vehicles from 20-30mm guns

          With this KZT, the BMP-3 has a much greater chance of surviving under fire from 20-30mm machine guns. .
          Much bigger.
      3. 0
        17 November 2022 19: 42
        I think the point was simple. Will the HE hit the entire board or only one or three segments.
  5. Eug
    +11
    16 November 2022 07: 04
    As I understand it, the system for questioning military personnel in combat units and the Military Industrial Commission does not exist now? And yet - "hanging" additional armor (any, not only remote sensing) - as for me, this is a task for repair plants, not for serial ones, because they (repair) are, in theory, much more "flexible". To summarize, then all these tasks, in my opinion, are just for the GABTU - with its adequate work.
    1. +3
      16 November 2022 10: 59
      In theory, yes - there should be upgrade kits, an installation manual and one or two trips with training for repair personnel. factory. But there was an article about rem. factories - it seems that we don’t have them now.
  6. -1
    16 November 2022 07: 47
    Of course, I am not in a claim to manufacturers, they "set" exactly what they are told and paid for.

    This is probably the key. In 2000-2009, it was somehow not entirely believed that trouble could come to us like this from Ukraine. And you know, it's generally good that it happened that way. We have a gap of time to: 1. understand that the West is ready to go all the way in its desire to destroy and eliminate us as a species; 2. understand that the supply system for the army and navy cannot be carried out within the framework of the general rules for financing state and municipal needs (I mean, first of all, 44 FZ, if anyone is in the subject). You need something more agile and not for the purpose of choosing the cheapest. Because in order to show this DZ on the BMP to Medvedev in November, it was probably necessary to move a proposal in March to amend the contract for the manufacture of BMPs of this series to prove its fundamental necessity (in the sense of installing DZ) in all instances. Or sign a new contract with the Moscow Region for the installation of remote sensing. "Breaking through" additional money, or shifting from other budget items, which is also not at all easy and fast. Especially when you consider that there should be the work of two different ministries with their own deadlines for considering letters and appeals and the length of the passage of each letter to the offices of services in these ministries. And only then bring this money to the contractor under the signed contract, manufacture and put on armor. It is not easy to even buy and install a new X-ray machine in the treatment room of the hospital during these periods. laughing
  7. -11
    16 November 2022 07: 57
    If we abstract from the next sobs of the author, then in general the article is interesting.
    By the way, according to the author
    The whole world feverishly began to equip lightly armored vehicles in DZ. In America, it is decorated with Bradley infantry fighting vehicles and M113 and Stryker armored personnel carriers.

    I looked at a photo of an American equipment park in Afghanistan - there is no protection there, except for screens. Maybe the Americans have just begun to do this (the Americans left Afghanistan only a year ago), but then how do they differ from us?
    1. +3
      16 November 2022 10: 19
      They go with them as protection kits for urban combat, apparently they didn’t fight in cities in Afghanistan.) Unlike Iraq, where all the battles took place in cities.
  8. +11
    16 November 2022 08: 41
    Looking at the “hand-washers” of the bosses and the “washcloths” from the Frunzenskaya Embankment of commanders of all levels, it remains only to work out a legal mechanism for the acquisition of military-industrial complex products, if not by private individuals, but by state-approved and controlled by whomever needs charitable foundations, etc. So that grandmothers from their pensions can not only chip in for a bulletproof vest or banal rubber boots for a warring grandson, but also for such things as DZ sets and other items that have passed state tests, adopted for service, but never supplied to the troops.
    1. +3
      16 November 2022 11: 03
      It's still good if these grandmothers in the current realities can generally chip in for something.
      Not all retirees are so lucky.
  9. +7
    16 November 2022 09: 05
    Who needs to come to Uralvagonzavod so that thoughtful (!) KDZ sets are installed on the T-72 (90)?

    the question is wrong! How many and who need to be shot for sabotage, I think a dozen others will be smeared with brilliant green on their foreheads and immediately everyone will be combed showing REASONABLE initiative on the ground
    1. -1
      16 November 2022 09: 36
      You are correct, comrade! I fully support!
    2. +1
      16 November 2022 11: 04
      Exactly.
      The question should be put like this.
      What needs to be done so that the rearmament of the army takes place without personal visits of the "main" to the places?
  10. +4
    16 November 2022 09: 18
    To whom? I believe the officer of the NKVD. For some reason, it seems to me that this magical abbreviation can work wonders, including and especially in the Moscow Region.
    1. +3
      16 November 2022 11: 13
      Quote from SincerityX
      To whom? I believe the officer of the NKVD. For some reason, it seems to me that this magical abbreviation can work wonders, including and especially in the Moscow Region.

      It is not necessary to idealize the times of Joseph Vissarionovich so much.
      Under him, the head of the plant, which produced obviously non-combat-ready tanks and forged documentation for their release, even survived the Mehlis commission - and became a people's commissar. And the army received 47-ton tanks with a suspension and transmission designed for 40 tons, with radiators boiling at 20 km / h, with a turret that did not turn at the slightest heel, with air filters for an hour and a half march along a country road and with a box gears, the gears of which lost teeth on the march. And she thought that she was very lucky if it was a tank of the main plant - because the crews refused to serve on the tanks of the production of the second site.
      1. +1
        16 November 2022 13: 15
        It is not necessary to idealize the times of Joseph Vissarionovich so much

        There is a dream, a pity not yet realized - to send all the characters who sing about the times of "Joseph Vissarionovich" to those glorious times.
        1. +1
          16 November 2022 13: 31
          Quote from Nephilim
          There is a dream, a pity not yet realized - to send all the characters who sing about the times of "Joseph Vissarionovich" to those glorious times.

          The guys were walking on a sunny road,
          Alyosha was the last and most dusty.
          By chance or on purpose, he himself does not know for sure
          Alyoshka stepped on the button with his foot.

          He picked up this button and took it with him,
          And suddenly I saw non-Russian letters on it.
          Guys with the whole crowd to the head of the outpost
          Running away, turning off the road, hurry, hurry, hurry!

          “Tell me exactly,” the chief said sternly,
          And he revealed the green card before him, -
          - Among which village and on which road
          Has Alyoshka stepped on a button?

          Four days searched, four days jumped
          Fighters on all roads, forgetting food and sleep,
          On the road we met a stranger
          Severely examined him from all sides.

          But there are no buttons from the left pocket
          And short pants are not sewn in Russian,
          And in the back of your pocket - gun cartridges
          And a map of the fortifications of the Soviet side.
          laughing
      2. 0
        17 November 2022 03: 27
        And we don’t even need a commission, because the crisis managers sold all the repair plants under the hammer.
  11. +2
    16 November 2022 09: 41
    Quote from SincerityX
    To whom? I believe the officer of the NKVD. For some reason, it seems to me that this magical abbreviation can work wonders, including and especially in the Moscow Region.

    There is more hope for Martians or other space aliens. There are simply NO NKVD officers! To become one, you need to be born into a working or peasant family, a Soviet school, a pioneer and a Komsomol. After serving in the Red Army. And only then will there be a PREPARATION for an NKVD officer.
    And only then will a guy "with Lenin in his head and Nagant in his hand" appear.
    1. 0
      16 November 2022 11: 18
      I do not agree, there are guys and preparation is not lower at all. But... smooth on paper. Any subordinate is always strong with a boss who is able to make a decision and bear responsibility for it. I can say with confidence that these are a big problem, since we are still recruited on the basis of personal loyalty - and not professional suitability. Something like that
      1. 0
        16 November 2022 16: 11
        I’m strong enough in will and spirit, but you won’t vote for me, you’ll be afraid of reprisals) laughing
      2. 0
        17 November 2022 04: 18
        On the white beach, there are also black grains of sand, but this does not stop it from being white.
  12. +6
    16 November 2022 09: 47
    As long as the minister is the one who did not serve in the army, a lover of a big top called army games, this will continue
    1. +4
      16 November 2022 10: 55
      I do not agree. Anything can happen. I once had to implement one project at the plant. But I knocked out a full-time position as a consultant and hired one pensioner who worked in the industry back in Soviet times. Then we broke the horns of the young "leaders" so much and made a rustle that we later thanked the middle managers. It is important to know what you are good at and what you are not. And in the latter case, delegate authority to competent people. Shoigu does not have this main quality of a leader.
    2. 0
      16 November 2022 19: 48
      I'm not sure the military will fix things. Current military with large epaulettes.
      You need to put a competent leader, with a competent team. There must certainly be a military man in the team who understands the joke and was sitting in a tank (airplane, ship, underline as necessary), but there must also be an engineer who periodically monitors new items, orders them, and then drips on the brains "we did it a long time ago, but we don't use everything what the fuck"?
      And also a normal analyst and economist who can calculate the number of tankers, the cost of training, and say "hello, Vasya, put everyone on armature, it will be cheaper than losing them on shahid-mobiles. And screw it up, it will be twice cheaper."

      Otherwise, we will fight with the BMP-2 and variations of 72 until we are blue in the face.
      Vaughn, 62M dug up. What's next? T-55, t-54, t-34?
      Give me a t-10M or something ....
  13. +1
    16 November 2022 10: 49
    I apologize, of course, but there is a strong feeling that those who make political and military decisions regarding the military-industrial complex treat LBT as LGBT!
    1. +3
      16 November 2022 11: 36
      very accurate answer good , none of them went in boxes. Somehow, on urgent duty, a cook in an outfit said one phrase, remembered it all his service and made comparisons: "- as long as there are only children of cooks and locksmiths in our ranks, we will continue to be a worker-peasant ... far from professional. ..” and he was right. When we overcome this threshold, then they will look at us with reverence, and not like this - "but the mahr has gone."
  14. +3
    16 November 2022 11: 53
    "Who needs to come to Uralvagonzavod so that the T-72 (90) will be equipped with thoughtful (!) KDZ kits?" Beria. And you need to start with Shoigu ...
  15. 0
    16 November 2022 13: 16
    "By the way, on the sides of the hull there really are no bonnets for attaching the KDZ, as on the towers." Of course, there are no such as on the tower, since there are other fasteners.
  16. 0
    16 November 2022 13: 26
    And where did the umbrellas go?
    They tried such a folding umbrella made of mesh, so that a cumulative projectile (if the tank had a trunk to it) was caught.
  17. -1
    16 November 2022 14: 40
    DZ can be effective on heavy or at least medium infantry fighting vehicles. The easy ones don't make sense. The jet will pierce 1,5 cm of steel anyway, but dz can be dangerous for dismounted infantry.
    It’s another matter for more advanced technology, this may make sense. It may not save you from modern means, but it will definitely protect you from the old RPG-18, SPG-9.
  18. +1
    16 November 2022 16: 14
    Although it is interesting to read, but I did not understand, the protection that Medvedev was shown was not effective or effective, but her path to the troops turned out to be too long, or both at once.
    For example, in medical research at the end of the text they give a short summary of everything that is written above.
    1. +3
      16 November 2022 23: 55
      . but he didn’t understand, the protection that Medvedev was shown was not effective or effective, but her path to the troops turned out to be too long, or both at once.

      Effective.
      The path to the troops before crime is long.
  19. +2
    16 November 2022 16: 18
    human life in our country in the entire history of Russia was valued extremely low (((including soldier's ((that's why we are dying out ((
    1. +2
      16 November 2022 16: 31
      Quote from Aleprok
      human life in our country in the entire history of Russia was valued extremely low (((including soldier's ((that's why we are dying out ((

      It is not true, there has not been and will not be a country in the world where human life would be valued higher.
      1. 0
        16 November 2022 19: 53
        Are there proofs?
        It was appreciated in the USSR.
        And here all socially significant people have a salary, well, using the example of a teacher - 25k.
        Doctor - 27k.
        How do you value your life, do you feel it?
        Maybe things are done fairly, and not just like that?
        Maybe in IR people remember that they are people? Acquire an understanding of the value of humanity? With a mop in ....

        They would appreciate life - in 2014 they offered the entire LDNR to move to Russia and give out 10 million lifting money on the snout. To each.
        If anything, 1 day of the war in terms of consumption, only BC will cost more.
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. -2
            21 November 2022 12: 53
            If anything, according to the constitution of the Russian Federation, the president is a servant of the people, and it is also forbidden to start aggressive wars there.
            But it's different, right?)
            And the soldier swore allegiance to the Fatherland and the Constitution, and not personally to the president, tea is not a slave of the king.
            Can you smell 1905, 1918? And he's getting closer.

            And no, Israel is not my country.
            Although the values ​​of life and actions in the interests of their state should be learned from them.
            1. 0
              21 November 2022 18: 44
              Quote: Devil13
              If anything, according to the constitution of the Russian Federation, the president is a servant of the people, and it is also forbidden to start aggressive wars there.
              But it's different, right?)
              And the soldier swore allegiance to the Fatherland and the Constitution, and not personally to the president, tea is not a slave of the king.
              Can you smell 1905, 1918? And he's getting closer.

              And no, Israel is not my country.
              Although the values ​​of life and actions in the interests of their state should be learned from them.

              rock the boat. it's all Zionist machinations
              1. -2
                21 November 2022 21: 17
                Wow, this is an argument, the intrigues of the Jews, rocking the boat!
                Says a man who feels sorry for the money for the norms of equipment and salaries.

                Well, you come, I'm not a Jew, I always have a poebalu with me, I distribute it for free.

                1. The comment was deleted.
  20. 0
    16 November 2022 20: 19
    It is at this angle of "meeting" that the armor penetration of the "intruder" drops by 75%.
    Is the game worth the candle? We take the old "Boot" (armor penetration - 210 mm), which means that in order to have a result, the armor of the infantry fighting vehicle must be at least 52 mm. What is the equivalent armor of the BMP-3? Well, maybe it makes sense to try and cover your forehead. But this is an old man SPG-9. The same old Tou has armor penetration from 500 to 900 mm - no chance for infantry fighting vehicles.
    Therefore, in fact, the question is: if penetration cannot be prevented, then maybe it is possible to reduce the armor effect of the cumulative jet and direct efforts towards this? Stuff corundum balls (like a tank), sheathe the hull from the inside with Kevlar (to catch fragments of armor), something else. All the same, at 4 tons you can think of a lot.
    1. +2
      16 November 2022 21: 01
      In addition to the rather lethal RPG-7 and SPG-9, the enemy is armed with a variety of 40-mm automatic grenade launchers in a wide variety of designs. Among the ammunition for automatic grenade launchers there is, for example, the M430 HEDP cumulative fragmentation grenade. It is against such weapons that gratings and dynamic protection are fenced.
  21. The comment was deleted.
    1. The comment was deleted.
  22. +3
    16 November 2022 21: 18
    and the whole point is in elementary thoughtlessness and, again, in primordially Russian “and so it will do”?


    But do Russians rule Russia, do Russians distribute the budget and form the State Defense Order .....
    At the helm there are solid faces with dual / triple citizenship, not pronouncing "P" .....
    Their families and money have long been abroad, and Russia for them is a bottomless feeder that they have been "pulling" for 30 years ....
  23. +1
    16 November 2022 21: 56
    I am more than sure that a couple more billions were allocated for "re-development". All funds have been successfully mastered and sawn.
  24. +1
    16 November 2022 22: 04
    Who needs to come to Uralvagonzavod so that thoughtful (!) KDZ sets are installed on the T-72 (90)?

    One gets the impression that UVZ is hopeless. There are no new ideas and there is nowhere for them to come from, the old ones are made through a stump deck. And total irresponsibility.
    They only learn to make freight cars. They are not capable of more. Even the exhibition samples are obsolete.
  25. +1
    17 November 2022 01: 07
    There is no doubt that it is necessary to work on the protection of armored vehicles, but at the same time, protection should not harm the mobility of vehicles. And the cost of this weapon should be commensurate with the time of its real life on the battlefield. First of all, our weapons should be able to more effectively hit the enemy. This is much more important than resisting his blows. It was these considerations that always stood in the development of this or that military equipment. Even more important is the introduction of systems that ensure the interaction of various equipment on the battlefield. And this means that by the time light armored vehicles appear in the zone of effective destruction, the enemy should not have a practical opportunity to hit them. That's what was lacking and lacking, in fact, in our army - the gray matter in the skull of the persons in charge of the hostilities. Remember with what armor Nazi Germany started the war with us. And what, something prevented her from reaching Moscow? Or did the appearance of well-armored, expensive vehicles in subsequent years provide them with the opportunity to win the war? It is not necessary to portray as idiots people who were forced to make compromise decisions. It would not hurt to hear their opinion on the ambiguous statements of the author of the article.
    1. +3
      17 November 2022 12: 15
      . It is not necessary to portray as idiots people who were forced to make compromise decisions. It would not hurt to hear their opinion on the ambiguous statements of the author of the article.

      Hello.

      And the author does not portray the people who make decisions as idiots.

      I'm just tired of waiting.
      I have been patiently waiting for my entire service.
      Hear an opinion?
      Please let me know what they told me:
      "... At the moment it is not considered appropriate, there are more important tasks...".

      And so for more than 30 years on almost all critical issues.

      Tired.
      1. -1
        17 November 2022 23: 02
        I don't know who you were talking to. Usually these people argue why it is not advisable to increase the reservation by the proposed method. In order to assess the feasibility, you need to familiarize yourself with the concept of the interaction of various equipment on the battlefield.
  26. +1
    17 November 2022 04: 38
    We don’t need armor, we have hats, dear soldiers hold on !!!
  27. +3
    17 November 2022 10: 49
    To begin with, at least all light armored vehicles in the combat zone
    action equipped :
    1. sets of additional reservations providing protection in a circle
    from 12,7mm bullets.
    2. mine floor screens.
    3. anti-cumulative screens (grilles).
    This is something that is not expensive, is produced quickly and can be installed by crew and mobile workshops in the field.
  28. The comment was deleted.
  29. 0
    12 February 2023 14: 33
    No, of course, there must be a certain level of protection on armored vehicles. But defense has never led to victory; means of destruction are always more effective. Take, for example, German heavy tanks on the western front of World War II. For a long time, the Allies did not have guns capable of effectively penetrating the armor of these vehicles, but they effectively hit them with the help of ground attack aircraft. The success of the battle depends on the correct combination of the combat properties of the means used.
    It makes sense to make the BMP-3 heavier (raise in price) with additional armor if it is possible to adequately increase the engine power. Otherwise, we will get an expensive and clumsy car, which they will still find where and how to hit.