Military Review

AK-17 "Bolt cutter" and a new cartridge - there are no analogues and maybe not necessary?

369
AK-17 "Bolt cutter" and a new cartridge - there are no analogues and maybe not necessary?

I will immediately make some preemption so that there are no accusations of provocations. Of course, there is no AK-17 in nature, but ... In weapons In circles, the option of switching to a more powerful cartridge is being discussed more and more, since the practice of SVO shows that our main cartridge 5,45x39 frankly cannot cope with modern personal protective equipment such as bulletproof vests of class 5, 5a, 6 and 6a. Protective helmets made of modern materials also often become an insurmountable obstacle in the way of a 5,45 mm bullet.


And in our circles, too (the Americans no longer talk, they have been doing it for a long time) they started talking about the need for a more powerful cartridge. About the start of work on the Legionnaire theme, a new-generation shooting complex and equipment that will replace the Sotnik, which is now being tested as a replacement for the Ratnik.

In general, everything is complicated, because we are talking about matters of such a distant future ...

It is difficult from the moment that the “Warrior” was not brought to mind, although in my opinion the complex has a very decent potential for modernization, and here the “Sotnik” has already begun to get along. And, not having tested, we are thrown to the Legionnaire.

Of course, for those who develop, a complete thrill. Know only money, get it and report on time about the work done. Nothing personal, pure business: if you don’t want it with amber buttons, it’s not a question, we’ll add pearl ones.

But about the kits, the conversation is separate and no less topical, because a fierce mess reigns there. But we still talk about cartridges and calibers. After all, replacing like this on the go in the process of waging a war of the main caliber is not easy. It is difficult in every sense, from technical to financial and economic.

After all, it was not for nothing that during the Great Patriotic War, Joseph Vissarionovich did not indulge the army and the Air Force with new models of weapons, oh, not in vain. Let's just think about this:

The Air Force received ONE new aircraft. Bomber Tu-2. All other aircraft were modifications of pre-war models.

The infantry received ONE submachine gun (PPS-43) and ONE machine gun (SG-43). Tankers received ONE new tank, IS. Artillerymen had the most novelties; in accordance with the changing conditions of warfare, the SU-85, SU-100, SU-122, SU-152, ISU-122 and ISU-152 appeared there. Plus a wheeled 100-mm field gun BS-3.

They didn't spoil, yes. It’s clear with artillery, it was the god of that war, and it would be incredibly difficult to fight such a war with cannons and howitzers of the pre-war development period. But the point, I think, is clear.

So let's get back to cartridges and calibers. At the very beginning, I spoke about the Americans, who practically began rearmament. But they began to think about the need to strengthen their small arms ten years ago, when they were still tightly seated in Afghanistan and there the brave marines were convinced from their own experience that modern Chinese bulletproof vests that got to the Afghans through Pakistan simply perfectly hold the standard 5,56- mm bullets. And the power of American standard bullets became insufficient not only at long distances, but also at medium ones.

Surprise gave way to understanding, and so the development of a new caliber, 6,8 mm, began. And at the present time, the US military already has fully functional models of new weapons at its disposal. We have already written about the product of the famous company SIG, there is nothing to repeat.


True, they also have to be brought to mind and brought to mind, because American designers are faced with a very unpleasant problem of decent recoil, which generally makes it very difficult to conduct automatic fire.

During my service, I just happened to be involved in the rearmament process, therefore I dealt with both AKM and AK-74. And shoot, as they say, to your fill from both one and the second.

Of course, in peacetime, the AK-74 was simply gorgeous. The recoil is minimal, the barrel hardly jumps, the accuracy is amazing, and it’s more fun to carry an AK-74 with ammunition. Still, the difference between four 5,45 mm horns compared to 7,62 mm is almost a kilogram. Complying with the regulations on the shooting range is a breeze.


AKM is more cruel in this regard. Freedom-loving behavior when shooting, no bursts of 5-6 rounds (it will fly away to God), a spread from which there is no escape and nothing to level, shooting at a distance of 300 meters and beyond is a feat.

However, at such distances, modern combat almost never takes place. And for 300+ there are guys with SVD and RPK who throw metal at such distances quite regularly and quite accurately. Nothing to pretend to be Rambo.


But at a distance of about a hundred meters, and this is a normal distance for today, the 7,62-mm cartridge practically does not give the enemy a chance, either behind the armor or behind the brickwork. It is clear that 7,62x39 is not 7,62x54 from a three-ruler, it will not break through a brick wall. But it will give a decent psychological effect by arranging a cloud of fragments from a brick. As for armor, here at 100 meters 7,62 mm can seriously compete with armor of any class. And with any helmet.

Here I agree with one company captain from the security unit of the Moscow air defense airfield in Migalovo near Tver. My friends served there, and when they looked in surprise at the AKMs, PKs and Kordas in the armory, the captain gave them a speech with something like this: “What, you understand (approximate translation), hatched? We protect the airfield, which covers Moscow and St. Petersburg from the air, and therefore no holes in accordance with the Geneva Convention and other nonsense! I need corpses on the way to the second line of barriers in which case. Clear?".

There is something in this. The 7,62x39 cartridge is a pretty killer thing that solves many problems when you don’t have to puzzle over the distance to the target. And he is guaranteed to allow you to drop the enemy, not particularly thinking about what number is in the bulletproof vest passport on the enemy.


So if the Americans were faced with the problem of penetrating Chinese body armor and began to recycle their weapons, God himself ordered us, moreover, in the very near future. The war in Ukraine will not end quickly now, and the armor has already been dragged from all over the world.

Although, as I was told by my old friend from the Specialized Specialized Brigade “Prizrak”, who served as an orderly there, and now continued this in the 2nd ac of the NM of the LPR in the same position, no more than 20% of the wounded who came to them account for bullet wounds. 65-70% are fragmentation and explosive.

So the artillery still confidently holds the first place in the destruction of a person on the front line and behind it.

Nevertheless, a person still does not want to die, therefore he uses helmets and bulletproof vests of various degrees of protection. And since we are talking about the fact that this man, packed in armor, still needs to be disabled and sent to think, the 7,62-mm bullet is definitely better suited for this. Other calibers can also be considered, here the question is that 5,56 mm and 5,45 mm are clearly a thing of the past.

Yes, the 7,62 mm caliber has an unpleasant nuance. AKM, as a weapon, is actually less accurate at distances of 100+ than AK-74, and it should take three times more nerves, time and cartridges to make a shooter out of a slanted recruit. However, it will be quite a high-quality shooter with opportunities.

It is believed that 7,62 mm is the caliber of weapons for the pros. It's hard to argue, the cartridge is more lethal, accuracy ... but it all depends on the design of the weapon. Say, 415 mm barrel length AKM is one thing, and 559 mm barrel M-14 is quite another. It is clear that the M-14 is much more accurate, although firing bursts is not at all for this rifle.


It is clear that the truth and solution of the problem can be somewhere between 5,45 and 7,62. The Americans chose 6,8 mm, well, they have the opportunity for this.

We have… No, no one has canceled our Kalashnikov concern, moreover, we already have some developments. For example, AK-308 chambered for 7,62x51 NATO. Already something, a machine gun for a rifle cartridge, albeit not ours.


However, before taking it apart piece by piece, I would consider it necessary to pay attention to this: on the Kalashnikov website, you can read this:

“The design of the AK-308 used components and elements of the AK-12 assault rifle - a posted forend, an adjustable butt, a receiver cover with a Picatinny rail.”

AK-12 / AK-15 ... The weapon is very controversial. Moreover, this was talked about by people who understand weapons much more than the author. And these people quite reasonably questioned the stories about "the highest ambidexterity, modularity, multi-caliber and the ability to reload with one hand". And the fact that the Ak-12 is a fifth-generation weapon was also questioned.

However, there are more than enough materials on this topic on the Internet. I managed to talk to a person (it's good when you have a large military hospital in your city), who used the AK-12 in practice for a long time and shared his impressions with me.

In fact, the AK-12 is a modernized AK-74 and not a ruble more. Differences? Yes, they are. But very little.

1. Sliding butt. Great deal, very comfortable. Positively.
2. Shooting mode with a cut-off in two cartridges. Neutral, my interlocutor already cut off two on the machine, it is rather useful for recruits.
3. Lightweight bolt carrier. Neutral, the difference is imperceptible.
4. The trigger mechanism is made removable. Very convenient in terms of replacement, if there is something to change. In the field, an invaluable option with a spare trigger. Positively.
5. Body kit. This is where it gets tricky and needs some explanation.

An “old school” person (and we are practically the same age, +/- 2 years around fifty dollars) does not need a front “tactical” handle. Unusual. She changes the grip, to which she is already used to at the level of brain firmware. Maybe young and comfortable, but ...

Everything is simple. Just imagine that you have an AK-12 in your hands with a front tactical assault grip, a collimator, a laser pointer or a flashlight on one side of the forearm (there is no longer a hand there, you can hang around) and you need to perform a simple exercise: from the “shooting from the knee” position give an aimed burst, fall, make two rolls, a burst from a prone position, a roll, a magazine change, a burst, a roll, back to the kneeling position.

Represented? Do you understand where the "ambush" is? Yes, in the corner of the left hand. Yes, now some will say that no one canceled turning the barrel up. I agree. And no one canceled the Ukrainian black soil in autumn either. Now try to imagine how much it will stick into all these ribs, it’s not clear what your collimator, flashlight / laser will look like, what the Picatinny rail will turn into and so on.

I didn’t come up with this, this is a person who, let’s say, made martial evolutions under certain conditions. And, judging by the fact that he “only” had a concussion from the arrival of a projectile, he performed them very coolly.

The AK-12 looks very...imposing.


But in a battle that does not take place in the city, among asphalt and concrete, the AKM, with its almost completely smooth forms, looks preferable. In reality, there are many times fewer places where dirt can accumulate.


Yes, these are Chinese, but ... what's the difference in principle, a soldier of any army can be in reality in such conditions

In general, the combat universal weapon, which the Kalash was considered all its life, should have a minimum of relief in the form of ribs, pockets, crevices and other places that will immediately collect all the dirt. It is clear that no one is going to shove the machine into the black soil, but there are situations when the black soil flies to the machine.

We will not talk about plastic Picatinny rails, including on the cover of the receiver. And without that, not very somehow. "Dovetail" originally from the USSR was a controversial thing, but at least reusable. What will happen to the plastic bar when "ejecting" from tank, which I wrote about in one of the articles, depends on how the machine will land on the same engine compartment cover.

No offense, the machine looks very nice and weighty. But given that over the past 10 years our army has been transformed from combat to parade-competitive, as evidenced by “successes” in the NMD today, the AK-12 is the weapon of just the parade army.

Separately, it is worth mentioning the cut-off of firing on two rounds. On the one hand, this complicated the mechanism, on the other hand ... But why? In general, this cut-off was originally invented for submachine guns, which since their inception had to be limited in the rate of fire. At the same PPSh, it reached 1000 rounds per minute, and with this it was really not very convenient. The Germans at their MP-40 struggled with this by weakening the return spring and increasing the mass of the shutter parts. It turned out to be reduced to an acceptable 550-600 rounds per minute. The modern MP-5 is in the middle with its 800-900 rounds / min, depending on the model, and this is where the cutoff is quite appropriate.

But the AK-12, which has 600 rounds per minute - why would he? If only for a beginner, so as not to release the entire store in one fell swoop ...

In general, the AK-12 does not contain anything breakthrough and useful in itself compared to the AK-74. Alas, but it is. In addition to the sliding butt, there is nothing else in it. As for modern bells and whistles in the form of laser sights, collimator sights - and you ask if they are so common in the army and where do they get batteries for them? You will be very surprised by the answers.

Do I need a new cartridge for new conditions?

Very difficult question.

New conditions - they are already in the yard. American miracle fighters in the same Afghanistan did not go on missions with anything, from their M-14s to their Chinese-made AK-47s. To snatch a Soviet machine gun was generally for happiness.




It is clear that this is not only about bulletproof vests, the Mujahideen treat them calmly, they roamed the mountains in unloading over a dressing gown, and continue to do so. Classics of the genre plus local conditions. The point is the instability of a light bullet in the green when it began to scour from branch to branch.

Of course, when 5,56 or 5,45 mm enters the body, and then into the bone, such fun begins inside it, which I myself witnessed. You wish only the enemy, because a light bullet cripples very much. But vice versa - a neat hole right through and the wounded can easily fall to a safe place, moreover, at a trot.

After a 7,62 mm bullet, you don’t run much. After it, in general, survival becomes an urgent problem, especially if it is far from the sanitary battalion.

Just when there was a theoretical confrontation between the USSR and NATO, the games with calibers pursued one goal: to ensure the most dense fire both on the defensive and on the offensive. That is, the soldier should have been able to pour bullets on the enemy for as long as possible. Hence the increase in the ammunition load, which for the AK-74 consists of 4 magazines (120 rounds) and a stock in packs of 330 pieces. Total 450 rounds. For AKM, the figure is significantly lower: 3 magazines (90 rounds) and 240 in packs. Total 350 rounds. It is clear that the weight of the b / c plays the main role here, and in this regard, the caliber of 5,45 mm gave a certain advantage. Especially if in battle there is an opportunity to calmly reload magazines.

So which is better, the much more unstable 5,45mm cartridge, or the heavier and less numerous 7,62mm?

As many practitioners of the use of small arms today believe, our 7,62x39 cartridge is quite relevant and optimal in its combat missions. Modernization? Yes, our gunpowder is rubbish, that's a fact. We are 10-15 years behind the world. The sleeve is not the most modern - it can be survived, all the same, our industry will overstrain in terms of mastering a new sleeve and it will not end in anything good. It would be quite possible to play with gunpowder, but this is also an option that is practically inaccessible today.

What can be played? We think that the length of the barrel. What was Mikhail Kalashnikov looking at while working for AK? Given that his first model was a submachine gun for tankers? That's right, on the PPSh, with which the entire Red Army fought. Cartridge 7,62x25 (very strong for that time) and a barrel length of 269 mm. Sprinkler. Deadly at close range, but a sprinkler. There was nothing to do in the field with PPSh, rifles and machine guns began to rule the ball there. An extreme, but for an example it is quite.


Second extreme. Very accurate, not very fast-firing RPK. 7,62x39 and a barrel length of 590 mm. Twice as long - and here's the result.


What can be the "golden mean"? AK-15/AK-308. 7,62x39 or 7,62x51 with a barrel length of 415 mm. The 7,62x51 NATO cartridge is, of course, elegant, but it is more than doubtful to master mass production in billions of quantities. Moreover, Western gunpowder is better than ours and our such cartridge will not be similar.

Hence 7,62x39 and a barrel length of 500 mm. And the question begins to take shape.

By the way, if you look at Western modern counterparts, for example, take the NK-417 and SCAR-H chambered for 7,62x51 (although the Belgian rifle can easily be converted to our 7,62x39), then you can definitely see TWO barrels there: the usual one is 406 mm long and weighted with a length of 508 mm. Moreover, the 508 mm barrel is not considered a purely sniper weapon, it is a Sniper Support Rifle, a sniper support weapon. More accurate than standard weapons.


A reasonable compromise, as it seems to us, between the length of the weapon and the accuracy of shooting.

It would also be nice to do something with the frankly archaic gas exhaust system in the AK, and it would be generally fine. Today, almost all gunsmiths in the world are trying to work on the topic of a short barrel stroke, but Kalashnikov stubbornly does not want to part with the existing system. Meanwhile, lethal force due to a bullet of a larger caliber, automation due to a short barrel stroke, shooting accuracy due to the length of the barrel and, again, a short stroke - and here it is, a weapon of a new generation.

I emphasize boldly that this is for an ordinary army shooter. The guys from the special forces, who walk in their cozy bunch one after another and look at the world through a collimator within their shooting sector, are different for them. For them, canopies and body kits, for them the layout of the "bullpup" and everything else. We have it for the shooter in the field or trench.

But the managers who have swarmed the now lucrative military sector see it differently. For them, the next generation is primarily in plastic body kits and bells and whistles, more interesting to the same special forces than ordinary infantry.

I suspect that today if you give the task to develop a new cartridge, the military-industrial complex will squeal with delight. After all, the new caliber is new everything:
- new bullets;
- new sleeve;
- new trunk;
- new shop;
- new machine guns, let them be old ones, but the receiver for the new cartridge and the extractor for the new cartridge case will not go anywhere.

How much money can be mastered, right? And how much time will have to be spent on developing a new cartridge and bullets, how many tests ... Crack, budget!

But the main point is that those who will now spend the winter in the trenches in Ukraine, these bright prospects somehow do not care. They need a weapon with which to perform combat missions. The 5,45-mm strekalki can be confidently said to have lost to modern bulletproof vests. And yes, they need to be changed to something more efficient.

Efficient, not spectacular.

Because the old cartridge 7,62x39 may well serve. It would be nice to replace gunpowder, and why not? In any case, between 5,45 and 7,62, the new caliber 6,8 is still closer to 7,62. If you add new automation and an elongated barrel to this, you can get just a chic weapon.

No one says that the 6,8 mm caliber should be forgotten. If the Americans bring it to mind, if the ballistic characteristics of the bullets really turn out to be on top, naturally, it is possible to work in this direction. But work when there is order in the army with weapons in the troops. Rearmament in general is a very slow process, so it can take a very long time to wait until 6,8 in the Russian version is ready. The whole question is, is it worth it? Especially considering that the problem can be solved by a less profitable, but simpler method.
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  1. John Smith
    John Smith 17 November 2022 05: 22
    -21
    80+ percent loss from fragments and 10+ from bullets, and we are still being sold fairy tales about super Kalashnikov 18+
    more corrected projectiles and guided bombs are not needed, zirconium poop from diabetes and Chinese body armor
    without sms and registration
    1. Svateev
      Svateev 17 November 2022 17: 47
      +17
      Quote from John Smith
      The 7,62-mm cartridge practically does not give the enemy a chance, either behind the armor or behind the brickwork ... the old 7,62x39 cartridge may well serve.

      The penetration ability of the 7,62 mm AKM is practically equal to the 5,45 mm AK74, only 10-12 percent more, which does not play any role. Already in the 80s of the last century, a ceramic bulletproof vest RIFLE 7,62-mm bullet pierced only up to a range of 100m. And the armor-piercing bullet of the SVD DOES NOT pierce the modern ceramic armored panel at point-blank range.
      To penetrate modern armor, it is necessary to significantly increase the speed of the bullet. It is with this increase in the speed of a 6,8-mm bullet that the Americans, under the NGSW program, break through the modern NIB. But new armor protection is already being tested, which NGSW will only penetrate up to 100 meters or not at all.
      Detailed and conclusive here http://svateev-va.rf/sib.html
      1. Momotomba
        Momotomba 17 November 2022 20: 31
        +5
        Quote: Svateev
        the armor-piercing bullet of the SVD DOES NOT pierce the modern ceramic armored panel at point-blank range.

        I wonder what the internal organs will turn into after this ...
        1. Svateev
          Svateev 17 November 2022 22: 55
          +6
          Quote: Momotomba
          about what the internal organs will turn after this.

          Depends on the correctly (or not correctly) designed "support" behind the armor plate. Bruising is usually guaranteed. But not fatal.
          1. Momotomba
            Momotomba 18 November 2022 13: 23
            0
            Quote: Svateev
            Depends on the correctly (or not correctly) designed "support" behind the armor plate. Bruising is usually guaranteed. But not fatal.

            Well, if so. But for some time you definitely don’t want to fight ...
      2. Urs
        Urs 17 November 2022 22: 42
        +6
        Ohohoho, I don’t wish you bad, but God forbid you catch a 7.62 RIFLE bullet in a “cool” American armor. Let’s say in the chest, an extensive bruise of the chest + a light bruise (you will spit blood for a long time) and at least a couple of broken ribs.
        After this, not every fighter will rise, as it is no longer necessary to think about the conduct of hostilities, it would be better to recover. request Checked in practice yes
        1. neri73-r
          neri73-r 18 November 2022 11: 14
          +5
          Who argues with this, catching any bullet, even a pistol one, will not seem like a little, but still ALIVE!
          1. Urs
            Urs 18 November 2022 12: 13
            +4
            Well, actually, according to the statistics of the SVO, in 90 percent of cases such damage to a fighter is a prisoner. Well, of course, if they don’t drag their own out and everyone hopes for it, but there are different cases, let’s say there’s no one to drag out. And even if they drag out, then this is a hospital for at least a month, rupture of pleural tissues is very difficult to heal.
      3. minus
        minus 18 November 2022 16: 07
        +1
        I don't know how far the researchers have come in the article you mentioned... Not interested in the properties of UHMWPE boards? Interesting research data were laid out by the way. With a decrease in bullet speed, penetration increases .... A bullet at a speed of 600 meters per second will be guaranteed to be stopped, but for example, at 380 m / s it will make a neat hole ... So the effect of speed is ambiguous ....
        1. Svateev
          Svateev 18 November 2022 17: 03
          +1
          Quote: Minus
          but for example, at 380 m / s it will make a neat hole ...

          I know about the nonlinear penetrating ability according to UHMWPE. But here's what a pistol bullet (340m / s) pierces ... Where does such data come from?
          1. minus
            minus 18 November 2022 17: 33
            0
            Firstly, he didn’t write a word that a pistol bullet. And secondly, why do you categorically limit the speed of a pistol bullet to 340 m / s? Do you want to throw a bunch of models with an initial speed above 400 m / s ???
        2. Momotomba
          Momotomba 18 November 2022 19: 33
          0
          Quote: Minus
          A bullet at a speed of 600 meters per second will be guaranteed to be stopped, but for example, at 380 m / s it will make a neat hole ..

          And from the point of view of physics, what is the reason for this? At a higher speed, the bullet is destroyed, but at a lower speed it continues to impact as a single object?
          1. minus
            minus 19 November 2022 05: 19
            +1
            It would be a very rough comparison, but the easiest way to understand the mechanism is to compare ultra-high molecular weight polyethylene with a non-Newtonian fluid. In which the viscosity depends on the speed of the external action. The higher the exposure speed, the higher the viscosity. .
  2. Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 17 November 2022 05: 24
    +46
    Today, almost all gunsmiths in the world are trying to work on the topic of a short barrel stroke, but Kalashnikov stubbornly does not want to part with the existing system.

    To confuse the short stroke of the barrel with the short stroke of the gas piston (SCAR in the photo) is something. Although the reasoning about the weakness of 5,45 and even at a distance of up to 300 m is also the same ...
    Fans of PPK-20 for pilots generally have a separate hello, although this is not about the article.
    1. 2112vda
      2112vda 17 November 2022 07: 53
      +6
      Yes, the author did not confuse. There is automation with a short stroke of the gas piston, the author speaks, for example, about the same Stechkin Modern machine gun. The short stroke of the barrel was on the Fedorov assault rifle. The same German M3 machine guns on a short course and Spanish handbrakes. So there is no error. Here it is necessary to consider not only automation with a short barrel stroke, but also with a long one (hello to the Shosh machine gun). There are "sprinklers" in the form of single machine guns, 7,62 caliber is better to do, let's say, for an increased barrel stroke. The rate of fire will be in the region of 300 ... 400 rounds per minute, it is easier for the shooter to control the weapon and there is no need to send bullets "into white light". Taking as a basis the Stechkin Modern assault rifle, modifying it to 7,62 mm with an increase in barrel length to 500 mm, you can get a decent assault rifle.
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 17 November 2022 08: 39
        +8
        Quote: 2112vda
        Yes, the author did not confuse. There is automation with a short stroke of the gas piston, the author speaks, for example, about the same Stechkin Modern machine gun.

        Seriously?
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        almost all gunsmiths in the world are trying to work on the topic of a short barrel stroke

        The author, unlike you, simply made a mistake, although it is indicative of his level, and you then dragged in an experienced machine gun and ancient machine guns.
        Well, 7,62 * 39 is outdated.
        1. SincerityX
          SincerityX 17 November 2022 09: 55
          +2
          Well, 7,62 * 39 is outdated.

          That's right, we don't even need 7.62/51. We have our own, 7.62 / 54R, and something tells me that they are even in warehouses, all sorts of different ones.
          1. bairat
            bairat 17 November 2022 11: 14
            +1
            We have our own, 7.62 / 54R, and something tells me that they are even in warehouses, all sorts of different

            And there are probably canvas ribbons, you can’t equip a cartridge with a rim in a regular store. And from the belt to water the adversary ..
            1. Oden280
              Oden280 17 November 2022 17: 40
              +8
              I will reveal a military secret, there are still saddles and sabers in the warehouses, a lot. This is not a joke, he went nuts when he saw it.
              1. cat Rusich
                cat Rusich 17 November 2022 21: 27
                +1
                Quote: Oden280
                I will reveal a military secret, there are still saddles and sabers in the warehouses, a lot. This is not a joke, he went nuts when he saw it.
                Even before the "kit" you need bridle and 4 horseshoes
                soldier
                Horseshoes come in different types of purpose, and horseshoes also need carnations and someone who knows how to shoe a horse (horse)
              2. stankow
                stankow 18 November 2022 01: 37
                +2
                Probably for the Kremlin regiment. And for filmmakers.
            2. Svateev
              Svateev 17 November 2022 17: 52
              +10
              A rimmed cartridge is normally loaded into the SVD magazine.
              1. SincerityX
                SincerityX 18 November 2022 12: 07
                +3
                A rimmed cartridge is loaded normally in any single-row magazine, or in-line block magazine, they have slightly less ammunition, but the chance of jamming in the magazine is 0.
          2. Genry
            Genry 17 November 2022 12: 13
            -7
            Quote from SincerityX
            We have our own, 7.62/54R

            This cartridge is great for belt-fed weapons.
            But for the store - it is contraindicated! am
            1. Vladimir_2U
              Vladimir_2U 18 November 2022 03: 52
              +4
              Quote: Genry
              This cartridge is great for belt-fed weapons.

              It does not allow direct feed from the tape, the cartridge has to be pulled back and only then fed into the barrel. Experiments with direct feed from a special tape required a special tape. laughing
              1. Genry
                Genry 18 November 2022 15: 08
                +1
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                It does not allow direct feed from the tape, the cartridge has to be pulled back and only then fed into the barrel.

                Firstly, a metal tape with spring grips, this is equivalent to a slightly larger cartridge diameter - in short, nonsense about an obstacle to a protruding welt from a direct feed.

                Secondly.
                The greatest effort to extract the cartridge from the tape back occurs at the moment of gas pressure on the piston, and not by the pressure of the return spring of the bolt, which increases the reliability of the machine gun.
                And plus the protruding welt allows for much more play on the case hooks, with a slip forward, which gives more time to calm down the vibrations / bounce at the moment the cartridge is gripped.

                And you also don’t know about the isolation of dirt from the tape?
                1. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U 18 November 2022 17: 56
                  -1
                  Quote: Genry
                  Firstly, a metal tape with spring grips, this is equivalent to a slightly larger cartridge diameter - in short, nonsense about an obstacle to a protruding welt from a direct feed.

                  Brad, Brad, calm down...
                  The automation of the Nikitin machine gun worked on the principle of removing part of the powder gases, followed by their cut-off and bleed through a ball valve. This design ensured smooth operation of automation, a given accuracy of fire and the required resource of parts. Particularly difficult was the task of providing a direct feed into the barrel of a rifle cartridge with a flanged sleeve (with a rim), for which a special tape with a semi-closed link was used.


                  Quote: Genry
                  The greatest effort to extract the cartridge from the tape back occurs at the moment of gas pressure on the piston, and not by the pressure of the return spring of the bolt, which increases the reliability of the machine gun.
                  MG-42 and clones somehow work on direct feed, MAG somehow works on direct feed, and nothing counts and are reliable machine guns.

                  Quote: Genry
                  And plus the protruding welt allows for much more play on the case hooks, with a slip forward, which gives more time to calm down the vibrations / bounce at the moment the cartridge is gripped.
                  Wow, what an advantage, it's good that the direct feed does not know such problems at all.

                  Quote: Genry
                  And you also don’t know about the isolation of dirt from the tape?

                  Well, explain why reverse feed is better than direct feed in terms of "isolation from dirt"?
            2. SincerityX
              SincerityX 18 November 2022 16: 09
              +1
              Firstly, as Vladimir_2U already wrote, it is not suitable for tape when fed directly into the barrel, and pulling back from the tape is a complication of the feed mechanism.
              Secondly, multi-row magazines are now common (mostly 2-row ones), this cartridge very rarely wedges in them, but sometimes the magazine may not feed a bevel cartridge, if the magazine is in-line, or in-line-block (when 2 compartments are nearby), with a chamfer, then cartridges with a rim almost do not wedge.
              1. Genry
                Genry 18 November 2022 16: 42
                +1
                Quote from SincerityX
                and pulling back from the tape is a complication of the feed mechanism.

                You shash ....
                Do you need reliability or fashion?
                Quote from SincerityX
                cartridges with a rim almost do not wedge.

                The main thing lies in the details. You want to be in front of the enemy, with "almost not jammed" .....
                1. SincerityX
                  SincerityX 22 November 2022 08: 35
                  0
                  The main thing lies in the details. You want to be in front of the enemy, with "almost not jammed" .....
                  With about the same chance, an ordinary two-row magazine may not feed a cartridge laughing
        2. Genry
          Genry 17 November 2022 12: 23
          +4
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          Well, 7,62 * 39 is outdated.

          It's just the perfect size.
          Kalashnikov himself said that the cartridge has a very large modernization potential.
          Strengthen the gunpowder, strengthen the bullet, it is possible to make a sub-caliber version (for firing more than 100m) - this will worsen the shooting in bursts and require the alteration of all old weapons for this cartridge, but will solve the problem of penetrating SIBZ in close combat, for which AKMs are intended.
          1. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 17 November 2022 15: 41
            +3
            Quote: Genry
            Kalashnikov himself said that the cartridge has a very large modernization potential.

            And when was it? And isn't this about 5,45?
            Quote: Genry
            Enhance Gunpowder
            What will happen to the sleeve?
            Quote: Genry
            harden the bullet
            What will happen to the cuts?
            Quote: Genry
            it is possible to make a sub-caliber version
            What does not suit 5,45? The same weight of gunpowder with a less heavy bullet gives the same result as an expensive perversion with a subcaliber, also with a detachable pallet, I suppose?

            Quote: Genry
            this will worsen burst firing and require reworking of all old weapons for this cartridge, but will solve the problem of penetrating SIBZ in close combat, which is what AKMs are designed for.
            Well, yes, well, yes, who needs accuracy and accuracy ...
            1. Genry
              Genry 17 November 2022 16: 50
              0
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              And when was it? And isn't this about 5,45?

              Kalashnikov has always been for 7,62x39.
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              What will happen to the sleeve?

              What is wrong with her?
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              What will happen to the cuts?

              Nothing will happen, 7,62 has no problems, since even the thicker shell will remain.
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              What does not suit 5,45? The same weight of gunpowder with a less heavy bullet gives the same result as an expensive perversion with a subcaliber, also with a detachable pallet, I suppose?

              Where is the same hitch - the 5,45 sleeve is much smaller ?!
              A sub-caliber bullet can have a weight as high as 7,62. At the same time, the aerodynamic quality will be much higher and the loss of energy over a long distance will be less.
              Yes, there will be a spread of plastic guides, but for single shooting this is not a problem.
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              Well, yes, well, yes, who needs accuracy and accuracy ...

              Accuracy and accuracy are needed at medium range and you need to quickly shoot single shots. In close combat, you have to hysteria with bursts, but here few people think about aiming, and even vice versa, they talk about the barrel "maybe it will hit."
              1. Vladimir_2U
                Vladimir_2U 17 November 2022 17: 31
                +2
                Quote: Genry
                Kalashnikov has always been for 7,62x39.

                Well, maybe, however, both 6,8 and 7,62 * 51 are far from 7,62 * 39.
                Quote: Genry
                What is wrong with her?
                Blowing up the case, knocking out the primer are typical consequences of an excess weight of gunpowder or an error in the grade of gunpowder. It's the same thing here - don't stuff more gunpowder, it's fraught.

                Quote: Genry
                Nothing will happen, 7,62 has no problems, since even the thicker shell will remain.
                You wrote about a stronger bullet, okay, let it be.

                Quote: Genry
                Where is the same hitch - the 5,45 sleeve is much smaller ?!
                Oh, yes, you don't know simple things. Just compare the photo, and by the numbers - the bottom of the sleeves is 11,35 and 10 mm / d and the powder weights are 1,75 and 1,5 grams for 7,62 and 5,45, respectively. And this is with two, two and a half times the difference in bullet weight. No "much less"

                Quote: Genry
                A sub-caliber bullet can have a weight as high as 7,62. At the same time, the aerodynamic quality will be much higher and the loss of energy over a long distance will be less.
                And the meaning is in a slight increase in quality and a decrease in loss? The initial speed will remain the same. Cost / efficiency to hell flies against 5,45.

                Quote: Genry
                Accuracy and accuracy are needed at medium range and you need to quickly shoot single shots.
                Short queues were not just invented, but to increase the likelihood of hitting medium distances. So either a machine gun or a sniper / Marksman with different cartridges.
                1. Genry
                  Genry 18 November 2022 15: 45
                  0
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  Well, maybe, however, both 6,8 and 7,62 * 51 are far from 7,62 * 39.

                  Increases the shutter travel and, accordingly, the momentum ....
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  Blowing up the case, knocking out the primer are typical consequences of an excess weight of gunpowder or an error in the grade of gunpowder. It's the same thing here - don't stuff more gunpowder, it's fraught.

                  Without blowing up the barrel and destroying the bolt? lol
                  Bloating and knocking out occurs with the wrong sleeve when it does not rest against the walls.
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  You wrote about a stronger bullet, okay, let it be.

                  Problems with the shell, which is torn if not thick enough.
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  Yes, you do not know simple things. Just compare the photo, and by the numbers - the bottom of the sleeves is 11,35 and 10 mm / d and the powder weights are 1,75 and 1,5 grams for 7,62 and 5,45, respectively.

                  You forgot about the squareness of the volume from the radius (the length is the same).
                  And the available weight is not a criterion, since the 7,62 has more volume headroom.
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  And the meaning is in a slight increase in quality and a decrease in loss? The initial speed will remain the same.

                  You "initial" - and I'm interested in "final".
                  The higher the area of ​​​​the bottom of the bullet and the longer the barrel - the more energy. You can’t disperse a thin bullet, with a lot of weight, in a small caliber ....
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  Short queues were not just invented, but to increase the likelihood of hitting medium distances.

                  On the middle ... you only send the first bullet to the target - the rest is the mental impact and the statistics of hitting the target in 20 thousand. rounds on target.
                  But if this first shot of yours does not overcome the SIBZ of the enemy, you leaned out in vain.
                  You need to work in bursts in the mode without aiming, i.e. at close range, when you need very, very quickly ....
                  1. Vladimir_2U
                    Vladimir_2U 18 November 2022 18: 47
                    0
                    Quote: Genry
                    Increases the shutter travel and, accordingly, the momentum ....

                    The pulse increases the shutter speed, not the length of the shutter.

                    Quote: Genry
                    Without blowing up the barrel and destroying the bolt? lol
                    Bloating and knocking out occurs with the wrong sleeve when it does not rest against the walls.
                    And the "wrong cases" also have a transverse gap, and the more energetic the rollback, the higher the likelihood of such a gap, in addition to the already indicated "pluses" of an extra weight of gunpowder. Don't make the walls thicker...

                    Quote: Genry
                    Problems with the shell, which is torn if not thick enough.
                    The problem of "strong" bullets is the rapid destruction of rifling!

                    Quote: Genry
                    You forgot about the squareness of the volume from the radius (the length is the same).
                    And the available weight is not a criterion, since the 7,62 has more volume headroom.
                    Why forget? Volumes 1,56 and 2 cm / sq. 5,45 less than a quarter - no "much more". A bullet is TWO times lighter.

                    Quote: Genry
                    You "initial" - and I'm interested in "final".
                    The higher the area of ​​​​the bottom of the bullet and the longer the barrel - the more energy. .
                    Caliber 7,62 - you put the same mass of a sub-caliber bullet as a full-bodied one, where will the additional speed come from ?! This is elementary physics. But you still haven’t said where you’re going to put the long, because it’s heavy, arrow ... Where? Only in the sleeve. And what's that? Reducing the volume for gunpowder.
                    Quote: Genry
                    You can’t disperse a thin bullet, with a lot of weight, in a small caliber ....
                    This is some kind of nonsense, with the same caliber 7,62 * 54R it gives a speed of 860 m / s for a heavier bullet. The question is in the weight of gunpowder. And with the same barrel, the same weight of the bullet and the weight of gunpowder, the initial speed will be the same, no matter how super-sub-caliber the bullet is ... And a slightly lower drop in speed at a distance will be destroyed by the many times higher cost of the cartridge.

                    Quote: Genry
                    On the middle ... you only send the first bullet to the target - the rest is the mental impact and the statistics of hitting the target in 20 thousand. rounds on target.
                    But if this first shot of yours does not overcome the SIBZ of the enemy, you leaned out in vain.
                    You need to work in bursts in the mode without aiming, i.e. at close range, when you need very, very quickly ....
                    You forgot the word "short".
                    And in general, nonsense about new bullets, powerful gunpowder and high speeds of 7,62 * 39 for existing weapons are broken by a simple thing. Higher bullet speed will require a change in rifling pitch. That's it, new rifling is new trunks ...
              2. stankow
                stankow 18 November 2022 01: 41
                0
                Where was it seen that they were "talking with a barrel"? And what do they get?
                1. Dmitry Tsarevich
                  Dmitry Tsarevich 19 November 2022 14: 43
                  -2
                  Did you really not see? There are a lot of videos from the SVO where the fighters interfere with the porridge in front of them with a barrel at close firing range, sorry for not attaching the video of them completely in the public domain.
            2. Svateev
              Svateev 17 November 2022 18: 01
              0
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              The same weight of gunpowder with a less heavy bullet gives the same result.

              It is not that simple. They tried to lighten a caliber projectile back in World War II ("coil" form). Yes, the initial speed and armor penetration are much greater. But only up to 300m. Because a light, large-caliber projectile is more strongly decelerated by air (ballistic coefficient is worse). Now there are a couple of cartridges according to this scheme, for which pistols and submachine guns with a firing range of up to 200m are made. Further, such a bullet is worse than an ordinary one.
              Details here http://svateev-va.rf/sib.html
              1. Sergey Aleksandrovich
                Sergey Aleksandrovich 17 November 2022 22: 38
                +1
                Oh really? Ballistics is highly dependent on the cross section. Lighten not for the sake of lightening, to reduce air resistance, make thinner, but not in order to make lighter.
                1. Svateev
                  Svateev 17 November 2022 23: 00
                  +1
                  Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
                  Ballistics is highly dependent on the cross section.

                  That's it. And when we lighten the projectile with the same caliber, then the score coefficient worsens.
                  There is some kind of mess in your arguments.
              2. Vladimir_2U
                Vladimir_2U 18 November 2022 03: 39
                -2
                Quote: Svateev
                It is not that simple. They tried to lighten a caliber projectile back in World War II ("coil" form).

                What's with the coil? I'm talking about the difference in weight between 5,45 and 7,62 bullets. The shape of both is quite aerodynamic, the weight of gunpowder is approximately equal, but the weight differs by half.
                And the problems of the coils were solved by separating pallets, and cost.
                1. Svateev
                  Svateev 18 November 2022 17: 12
                  0
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  I'm talking about the difference in weight between 5,45 and 7,62 bullets.

                  Sorry, I didn't understand.
                  I also think that it is more promising to accelerate a 5,45-mm bullet than a 6,8-mm one - the recoil momentum is less, because the mass is less. Why the Americans in NGSW increased the caliber to 6,8 mm, I don’t understand.
                  1. Foul skeptic
                    Foul skeptic 18 November 2022 17: 25
                    +1
                    Why the Americans in NGSW increased the caliber to 6,8 mm, I don’t understand.

                    Then, that they are building the concept of imposing a battle at distances beyond the range of effective destruction of the main infantry weapons of potential opponents - more than 600 meters. And then a fast light bullet will lose a slow heavy one.
                    1. Svateev
                      Svateev 18 November 2022 18: 39
                      0
                      Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                      And then a fast light bullet will lose a slow heavy one.

                      Who told you this? It depends on the score coefficient (BC). And BC depends on the same transverse load. A lighter, smaller caliber bullet may have better BC than a heavier, larger caliber bullet.
                      1. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 21 November 2022 09: 12
                        0
                        I tell you this. Naturally, we were talking about bullets identical in shape and design. And the heavy one will have a higher BC, since the lateral load will be higher, since the length of the bullet grows in the first degree, and the mass in the third. Well, do not forget that the elongation of the bullet has a positive effect only up to a certain point, until the effect of increasing the lateral load begins to be leveled by an increase in the resistance force to movement on the rifling.
                  2. Vladimir_2U
                    Vladimir_2U 18 November 2022 18: 51
                    -1
                    Quote: Svateev
                    I also think that it is more promising to accelerate a 5,45-mm bullet than a 6,8-mm one - the recoil momentum is less, because the mass is less. Why the Americans in NGSW increased the caliber to 6,8 mm, I don’t understand.

                    You are mistaken, I do not consider 5,45 a promising caliber, it is quite working - yes, but not promising.
                    1. Svateev
                      Svateev 19 November 2022 09: 56
                      0
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      I do not consider 5,45 a promising caliber

                      What do you think is promising?
                      1. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 20 November 2022 13: 50
                        -1
                        Quote: Svateev
                        What do you think is promising?

                        In the absence of a breakthrough in non-metallic shells and the durability of gunpowder, and in general the replacement of a powder rifle, these 6,8 - 6,5 mm and I think it goes without saying for an army machine gun.
                        Here you mentioned the acceleration of 5,45, but where? 900 m / s is a lot, there are already problems with guiding the bullet along the rifling, with the survivability of the rifling, with the length of the barrel, because the burning out of all the gunpowder will require an even longer barrel. Of course, there is progressive cutting, polygonal, but for a mass machine it is expensive, and will not solve the problem of a small mass of a bullet, because rifled bullets are limited in their length.
            3. Momotomba
              Momotomba 17 November 2022 20: 45
              0
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              And when was it? And isn't this about 5,45?

              The creation of weapons under 5,45 Kalashnikov considered a huge mistake
          2. Svateev
            Svateev 17 November 2022 17: 54
            0
            Quote: Genry
            Strengthen gunpowder, strengthen the bullet, it is possible to make a sub-caliber version (for shooting more than 100m)

            TSNIITOCHMASH spent 18 years (EIGHTEEN YEARS) on the sub-caliber version with zero results. Details - here http://svateev-va.rf/sib.html
            1. Genry
              Genry 18 November 2022 16: 21
              +1
              Quote: Svateev
              TSNIITOCHMASH spent 18 years on the sub-caliber version

              Well, they tried to lick off an anti-tank shell with a crowbar - neither mind nor imagination.
              1. ROSS_51
                ROSS_51 18 November 2022 19: 58
                +2
                Quote: Genry

                Well, they tried to lick off an anti-tank shell with a crowbar - neither mind nor imagination.

                Well, the Americans did it quite successfully with the M903 SLAP cartridges for Browning. "Well, stupid ..." (c) Yes?
                1. Svateev
                  Svateev 19 November 2022 09: 54
                  +1
                  Quote: ROSS_51
                  the Americans quite successfully did this with the M903 SLAP cartridges for Browning.

                  Yes, sabotaged ammo can increase the penetration of an existing weapon. But:
                  - the same problem of the danger of "sabo" for their neighbors;
                  - the weight of the "sabo", although less than the weight of the shell and jacket of the caliber bullet, but it is not zero. And the smaller the caliber, the more the weight of the "sabot" approaches the weight of the core and the benefit of the sabotaged bullet decreases.
                  It is not for nothing that the sabotaged ammunition stopped at the 12,7 mm caliber, and already for the 7,62 mm "the benefit is not at that level" - http://www.svateev-va.rf/sib-istoria.html
          3. dmi.pris
            dmi.pris 17 November 2022 18: 16
            +3
            By the way, from AKM with a compensator at the shooting range he shot down all the targets, except for one - the bullet hit the clothespin with the sensor and the target didn’t lay down for the second time.
        3. Puzoter
          Puzoter 17 November 2022 20: 42
          +3
          It is wrong to say that 7.62*39 is obsolete. Case size and caliber are only part of the cartridge. As the author rightly noted, replacing gunpowder and a bullet can give a qualitatively different cartridge for an existing weapon at minimal cost. The development of a completely new cartridge in a different caliber will require huge financial and time resources, plus the problems of supplying the army with the inevitable gradual transition to new weapon models.
          1. fif21
            fif21 17 November 2022 22: 14
            +3
            Quote: puzoter
            It is wrong to say that 7.62*39 is obsolete

            And here I completely agree with you. Chechnya, Nokhchi with AK47 and we with AK 74. Combat tactics - a trench, a short dash, or are they still walking in a chain? Or does it occur to someone to shoot from a machine gun from the knee, under enemy fire? The main aimed shooting is from a standing position in a trench or a prone position on the ground. And if the enemy has the opportunity to hit you 10-12 meters earlier than yours, the enemy undoubtedly has an advantage. Even when combing through the "greenery", 7,62 has an advantage over 5,45 due to the rebound. And it was rightly noted about the pore, and about the decrease in recoil. They generally forget about the fact that each fighter must shoot a machine gun for himself. Seeing a weapon with a lot of "dimples", "protrusions", "recesses", "slots", I imagine with horror how I will clean it after the battle. Effective in pictures, but not effective in combat. For me, it’s like an AKMS with a GP-30 grenade launcher or a bipod, and a 45-round magazine. I impose my opinion on no one. The main thing is that the designers do not forget what the weapon is for, and in what conditions it will be used. hi
            1. Svateev
              Svateev 18 November 2022 17: 33
              +1
              Quote: fif21
              Or does it occur to someone to shoot from a machine gun from the knee, under enemy fire?

              Believe it or not, this is exactly what our shooting course teaches. For example, the first Test Shooting Exercise (1UKS) indicates to shoot lying down on the first firing line, on the second - from the knee, on the third - standing. And don't you dare change the exercise! So machine gunners and snipers stand in columns for several seconds, aiming a target in a trench from such an unstable position. The probability of hitting a standing one in a trench and a trench one in a standing one correlates (from memory) about 1:11.
              I understand that in 1UKS we test the ability to shoot from any position. But in the Shooting Course there is not a single exercise where we would develop the necessary reflex in a fighter: take a stable position (fall and take a position behind the parapet), and only then shoot with the enemy. The probability of killing the enemy and staying alive yourself will be 11 times higher.
              Quote: fif21
              each fighter must shoot the machine for himself

              But this is not advisable. If aiming errors of a particular fighter are compensated in the sight, for example, an uneven front sight, then another fighter will not be able to shoot from such a machine gun. It is necessary to teach each fighter the correct aiming, there is nothing complicated in this.
              1. fif21
                fif21 18 November 2022 18: 26
                +1
                Quote: Svateev
                There is not a single exercise in the shooting course where we would develop the necessary reflex in a fighter: take a stable position (fall down and take a position behind the parapet)

                I myself am shocked when I see shooting at the "Syrian" in the commercials. Who teaches this? In a real battle, you try to move from cover to cover, with a short throw, a long throw, if there is someone to cover. It will be interesting to know when they start teaching.
                Quote: Svateev
                But this is not advisable. If aiming errors of a particular fighter are compensated in the sight, for example, an uneven front sight, then another fighter will not be able to shoot from such a machine gun.

                This is what I don’t want most of all, so that someone else shoots from my weapon. wassat Therefore, I think that the weapon should correspond to the anatomical features of the fighter (vision, fingers, grip of the weapon). You aim at the center of the target, and the bullets lie down, say, for 9 hours, what prevents you from making an amendment to the sighting device? The saved second or two will be useful for solving other issues. hi
              2. fif21
                fif21 18 November 2022 21: 18
                +1
                Quote: Svateev
                For example, the first Test Shooting Exercise (1UKS) indicates to shoot lying down on the first firing line, on the second - from the knee, on the third - standing.

                In the army, a soldier is taught to shoot, not to fight. Therefore, these exercises are needed, as well as the study of materiel. There is no logical continuation of this training. Mobikov need to learn to fight! And this is an attack, a counterattack and a correct withdrawal. Advance and retreat behind armored vehicles. Exit to the minefield and withdrawal from it. Actions in case of fire damage to the column. Actions in the event of an ambush. Actions in different areas. Actions in the conditions of a village, an urban-type settlement, a city, an industrial zone ....... If you teach theory and practice properly, there will be little month, and not a minute of free time. They will rest in battle, as Suvorov said. hi
                1. Svateev
                  Svateev 19 November 2022 09: 21
                  +1
                  Quote: fif21
                  what prevents you from making an adjustment to the sighting device?

                  If the soldier’s aiming, attachment, descent was checked, he does everything right, but he doesn’t hit from the weapon brought by another shooter, then there is nothing to do, you need to adjust the sight for him. But if he happens to take someone else's weapon, he won't hit. And from a weapon tailored to his characteristics, no one else will fall either.
                  At first, the Americans also customized the M16 for each shooter, with a diopter sight, everyone takes an even front sight in their own way. But the latest instruction on the M16-/M4 included a requirement to train everyone to aim the same type. They are tired of the non-interchangeability of weapons.
                  Quote: fif21
                  these exercises are needed, as well as the study of materiel. There is no logical continuation of this training

                  And I about it! Learn to shoot from different positions. In the middle of the course, in the shooting exercises. But then you need to teach the fighter without hesitation, "on the machine" to take the most advantageous position for shooting at the moment - the most stable and most protected from enemy fire. From the knee, shoot only to get up from the grass, while standing - only on top of some kind of high barrier blocking the target. And that's when it will master - tactics:
                  Quote: fif21
                  learn to fight! And this...

                  I completely agree! And they started teaching it. If you read the news "In the country" of the website of the Ministry of Defense, then this is now being taught to the mobilized. The roasted rooster pecked.
                  Quote: fif21
                  a month will not be enough, and not a minute free. They will rest in battle, as Suvorov said

                  good
          2. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 18 November 2022 03: 49
            -1
            Quote: puzoter
            It is wrong to say that 7.62*39 is obsolete. Case size and caliber are only part of the cartridge.
            Explain to yourself why the Americans, releasing better cartridges (and gunpowder!), Are practically switching to 6,8?
            Quote: puzoter
            As the author rightly noted, replacing gunpowder and a bullet can give a qualitatively different cartridge for an existing weapon at minimal cost.
            Replacing gunpowder and bullets will force you to change rifling! I hope you understand why and what it means..
            Quote: puzoter
            The development of a completely new cartridge in a different caliber will require huge financial and time resources, plus the problems of supplying the army with the inevitable gradual transition to new weapon models.
            Under the cover of huge stocks of ancient (7.62 * 39) and old weapons (5,45 * 39), this is quite possible.
            1. Puzoter
              Puzoter 18 November 2022 10: 42
              +2
              Now there are two practically identical machine guns and two calibers, but there will be three machine guns and three calibers. The supply men will shoot themselves. Despite the fact that the advantage in penetration (I don’t see others) will be leveled in a couple of years by new bulletproof vests. And for the sake of what is asked, to fence the garden. The Americans can afford a lot of things - they wage land wars whenever they want, but we have no such choice.
              1. Vladimir_2U
                Vladimir_2U 18 November 2022 11: 23
                -3
                Quote: puzoter
                Now there are two practically identical machine guns and two calibers, but there will be three machine guns and three calibers.

                I do not urge to drop everything and rivet new. But 7,62 * 39 in its current form has exhausted itself and modernization based on a bullet and gunpowder will still lead to rearmament, which is understandable. hi
                1. Puzoter
                  Puzoter 18 November 2022 12: 24
                  +2
                  Perhaps, but a new cartridge in an intermediate caliber will also not give a decisive advantage - with close energy, its advantage in penetration will be leveled by new bulletproof vests faster than it will be put into service. Perhaps only a return to rifle caliber can solve the problem of body armor, which means a return to semi-automatic rifles and the saturation of units with machine guns.
                  1. Svateev
                    Svateev 18 November 2022 17: 43
                    0
                    Quote: puzoter
                    return to rifle caliber,

                    The SVD armor-piercing bullet B-32 DOES NOT pierce the "corundum" armored panel SK-60K from 10 (Ten) meters. Here in Fig. 2 is a photograph of a panel that was not pierced by several hits - http://www.svateev-va.rf/sib.html
                    You can click on the picture and the photo will open in full size.
                    To pierce such a panel, you need to increase the speed of the bullet. Can you imagine what the return from a rifle bullet will be if its speed is increased to at least 1100 m / s?
    2. insafufa
      insafufa 17 November 2022 09: 29
      +2
      Hence 7,62x39 and a barrel length of 500 mm. And the question begins to take shape.
      The barrel length of the Kalash is not just for nothing, but the optimal ratio for a fighter with a non-removable butt that cannot be removed. It is optimal from the point of view of the fact that it is more convenient to sit with it in an infantry fighting vehicle and operate in urban combat in the interior. with SVD, such a trick will not work, so the sniper always had a PM at hand. With RPK you try to run inside the buildings, the task is very interesting. A sniper support weapon in the squad is needed but nothing more. it is not worth re-equipping all fighters with an elongated AKA. A much more pressing problem is the cooling system like Pecheneg for the PKK, which is what the fighters need so that they are not afraid of overheating the barrel.
      1. Genry
        Genry 17 November 2022 17: 11
        0
        You said everything correctly, but according to your theses below, I think a little differently.

        Quote: insafufa
        With RPK you try to run inside the buildings

        Quote: insafufa
        A much more pressing problem is a cooling system like Pecheneg for the PKK, that's what you need

        If you have 4-row or drum stores, then the PKK is not needed. Each fighter in turn (or all at once) can perform a similar function. A long barrel and bipod are not something you can't do without.
        And you should not refuse to support Pecheneg.
        1. insafufa
          insafufa 18 November 2022 07: 51
          +1
          And you should not refuse to support Pecheneg.
          already, like the PC, they quietly began to descend from the second company in the Caucasus to the level of the squad and the PKK was with him as a fact of strengthening the infantry squad, at least in intelligence it was like that. In my department, where I served as a rangefinder, after the transfer from the batteries, it was exactly like that. And the guys from the Marine Corps did the same, although I personally preferred the AKS to me, the battle distance was not needed even in open areas, most likely for self-defense, just in case.
      2. nedgen
        nedgen 18 November 2022 01: 09
        0
        Quote: insafufa
        Hence 7,62x39 and a barrel length of 500 mm. And the question begins to take shape.
        The barrel length of the Kalash is not just for nothing, but the optimal ratio for a fighter with a non-removable butt that cannot be removed. It is optimal from the point of view of the fact that it is more convenient to sit with it in an infantry fighting vehicle and operate in urban combat in the interior. with SVD, such a trick will not work, so the sniper always had a PM at hand. With RPK you try to run inside the buildings, the task is very interesting. A sniper support weapon in the squad is needed but nothing more. it is not worth re-equipping all fighters with an elongated AKA. A much more pressing problem is the cooling system like Pecheneg for the PKK, which is what the fighters need so that they are not afraid of overheating the barrel.

        Guys, do you think what is the difference between a 415mm and 500mm barrel? Only 85mm. And you can almost see this difference on the AK-74 because of the DTK. It's almost 80mm. I don't remember exactly. So extending the AKM barrel by 85 mm is unlikely to be a problem. But gunpowder in 7.62x39 can definitely be stuffed a little more. Have any of you disassembled this cartridge? I understood. The sleeve is filled somewhere by 2/3 or 3/4 and this is without room for a bullet, i.e. there is a place for an additional weight of gunpowder, maybe only 0.25 g, but there is a place. (although this is my amateurish opinion, I’m still not a specialist in the development of cartridges.) In my opinion, this is exactly what Mikhail Timofeevich had in mind about the potential of 7.62x39, and also the development new types of bullets with improved aerodynamics and more efficient powders. And it probably won't be a big problem to make a short piston stroke. After all, it is he who is implemented in the SVD. And of course, one or two shooters with something like an RPK in the squad, but without fail with sights and then on a dovetail, a picatinny rail on the receiver cover is not about AK. All ways to remove the backlash of the cover are the same as removing the backlash from the dovetail (as I read here on the VO after each cleaning of the AK-12, you have to shoot the machine gun, and this is AGAIN CLEANING and so on ad infinitum). Yes, and the accuracy at a distance of more than 400m is not so important for the machine. For this, there are SVD and Pechenegs.
        1. insafufa
          insafufa 18 November 2022 07: 55
          0
          I agree, we need to upgrade the cartridge 7,62 x 39
        2. Genry
          Genry 18 November 2022 14: 43
          0
          Quote: nedgen
          And it probably won't be a big problem to make a short piston stroke. After all, it is he who is implemented in the SVD.

          In SVD, a delay in the movement of the shutter is implemented, until the final exit of the bullet ....
          And the stroke of the piston / shutter, in the prototypes of AK (SVD), depends on the length of the cartridge.
          1. nedgen
            nedgen 18 November 2022 23: 52
            0
            Quote: Genry
            Quote: nedgen
            And it probably won't be a big problem to make a short piston stroke. After all, it is he who is implemented in the SVD.

            In SVD, a delay in the movement of the shutter is implemented, until the final exit of the bullet ....
            And the stroke of the piston / shutter, in the prototypes of AK (SVD), depends on the length of the cartridge.

            Sorry Genry, but can you point out exactly where in the SVD is the shutter release delay device? As far as I know, there is no such device.
            1. Genry
              Genry 23 November 2022 03: 00
              0
              Quote: nedgen
              where exactly in SVD is a shutter delay device? As far as I know, there is no such device.

              It's not some iron. This is the ratio of the area of ​​the piston, pressure and range / time of propagation of the pressure wave to this piston.
              Those. if you implement a burst firing mode, then the rate of fire will be very low.
              And in machine guns, this rate (similarly) is adjusted to 600 rounds per minute.
          2. Daddy pig
            Daddy pig 21 November 2022 16: 55
            0
            But isn’t it in ANY weapon with gas-operated automatics (and with any other, except, perhaps, a free shutter), the shutter is unlocked only AFTER the bullet exits the barrel bore? Actually for this, "locking the shutter" is necessary.
            And dp, I would like to see what kind of mechanism is there in SVD.
        3. Svateev
          Svateev 19 November 2022 10: 10
          +1
          Quote: nedgen
          But gunpowder in 7.62x39 can definitely be stuffed a little more.

          A change in loading density (gunpowder weight / chamber volume) will entail a change in pressure in the chamber and barrel. Moreover, with an increase in pressure, gunpowder burns faster, such a self-accelerating process. Instead of a shot, you can get an almost explosion with the destruction of the weapon.
          Loading density is an important thing and is calculated based on the type of powder, the density of the bullet in the case, the weight of the bullet, the coefficient of friction of a given type of bullet in a given type of barrel, etc., etc. You can't just "fill up the gunpowder".
          1. Genry
            Genry 23 November 2022 03: 19
            0
            Quote: Svateev
            Moreover, with an increase in pressure, gunpowder burns faster, such a self-accelerating process.

            On the contrary, gunpowder, under excess pressure, slows down its combustion.
            Increasing the amount will not increase the pressure and the unburned gunpowder is simply spit out in the form of a torch of fire.
            This is how the pressure in the barrel stabilizes.

            If you need to increase the pressure, then change the formula of gunpowder.
            Gunpowder can degrade with age, changing its formula and can increase or decrease the working pressure, which leads to delays or explosions of weapons.
            And there are times when the bullet jams in the barrel, and no consequences occur, then they use the next cartridge or knock it out with a ramrod (this is the most painful option for the barrel).
          2. nedgen
            nedgen 23 November 2022 22: 58
            0
            Quote: Svateev
            Quote: nedgen
            But gunpowder in 7.62x39 can definitely be stuffed a little more.

            A change in loading density (gunpowder weight / chamber volume) will entail a change in pressure in the chamber and barrel. Moreover, with an increase in pressure, gunpowder burns faster, such a self-accelerating process. Instead of a shot, you can get an almost explosion with the destruction of the weapon.
            Loading density is an important thing and is calculated based on the type of powder, the density of the bullet in the case, the weight of the bullet, the coefficient of friction of a given type of bullet in a given type of barrel, etc., etc. You can't just "fill up the gunpowder".

            And I didn’t say that you don’t need to change anything in the design of the machine. Probably would have to change the barrel, return spring and something else on the little things. (after all, I’m not a gunsmith designer) After all, something similar was done with the PMM at one time. They sealed the charge of gunpowder into a new cartridge and made radial holes in the chamber so that the shutter did not open prematurely.
  3. Uncle lee
    Uncle lee 17 November 2022 05: 35
    +9
    Because the old cartridge 7,62x39 may well serve
    7,62 - our EVERYTHING! good
    1. John Smith
      John Smith 17 November 2022 05: 37
      +1
      quote from the article as a quality marker-
      American miracle fighters in the same Afghanistan did not go on missions with anything, from their M-14s to their Chinese-made AK-47s.

      Yes, in 2006, any Silovian, instead of his mk39 ebr, dreamed of a Soviet ak 74 (not m!)
      what for a collimator or lpoldovskaya optics, titanium plug, uncle liu gao no / chinese name /
      cooler than moget
    2. Bingo
      Bingo 17 November 2022 06: 44
      +7
      Namely, if something needs to be tightened up, then the cartridges. The rest is from the evil one. 7,62 at point-blank range - even if the armor doesn’t break through, everything is messed up behind him, hell, who will shoot after this
      1. Svateev
        Svateev 17 November 2022 18: 06
        -3
        Quote from Bingo
        even if the armor does not break through, everything is in a mess after him,

        No porridge. Otherwise, armor would not be needed. With proper support (like the body armor of the Warrior), a contusion injury (strike) does NOT disable the fighter for a long time.
      2. insafufa
        insafufa 18 November 2022 07: 58
        +2
        It won’t turn it into porridge, but it will deliver a lot of thrills, after a 9mm cartridge, I went almost point-blank for a week, spitting blood from this, even armor 6k didn’t save.
        1. Bingo
          Bingo 18 November 2022 08: 25
          +1
          Well, a friend of mine recently arrived. Five bullets from 15 meters ... I was lucky as hell that I got off easy, but even then I could not shoot from the word at all. And yes, there were 5,45s, so there was no "to mess" as they say over there ... Uh-huh. Otherwise, I didn’t see how they happen from hitting the armor 7,62 ...
          1. Svateev
            Svateev 18 November 2022 17: 54
            0
            Quote from Bingo
            so no "to mess" as he says over there ...

            Brother! "To mess" is when the 5,45mm loses stability in the body and turns 180 degrees. The surgeon takes it out of the wound channel "back to front". That's when along the wound channel a real porridge from the insides. Agree, a contusion injury from body armor is incomparably easier to endure.
            1. Bingo
              Bingo 18 November 2022 18: 06
              -1
              A long topic ... 5,45 already really often doesn’t break through the armor, it won’t have time to turn around in the limb, well, if it hits the bone. And to knock on the armor - 7,62 WHERE as weighty, I didn’t get it myself, but the people saw it. One slap, and that's it, the dude was out for a long time. This cartridge is still effective, as the article was about. Again, a plus - there are subsonic ones under 7,62, which is why intelligence carries them to this day.
              The moral is - it's not a damn thing to get out with a third caliber. As I said - to improve the quality of existing calibers. And that's it.
            2. Centurion70
              Centurion70 25 November 2022 22: 22
              0
              I will surprise you greatly, but any spindle-shaped bullet in the wound channel turns backwards ... Of course, porridge does not work, but the wound channel hike forms a temporary pulsating cavity with contusion and necrosis of the tissues around it (well, internal organs, if they are not lucky enough to be on a way). The higher the speed of the bullet (fragment), the larger the area of ​​concussion.
        2. Svateev
          Svateev 18 November 2022 17: 46
          0
          Quote: insafufa
          me after 9mm cartridge

          Pistol or Vintorez?
          1. insafufa
            insafufa 21 November 2022 07: 58
            0
            PM 9x18 if there was a screw cutter, then I would lie on the koik, I would not go
  4. BIGLESHIY
    BIGLESHIY 17 November 2022 05: 45
    -2
    Designer Fedorov worked for 6 mm. caliber. And he did a great job of creating a cartridge for this caliber. Even before the revolution, he created an automatic machine. So you need to get daddies with his works from dusty archivists and recycle them for current production technologies.
    1. tatarin1972
      tatarin1972 17 November 2022 06: 38
      +7
      The Fedorov assault rifle, the one that entered service, was chambered for 6,5x50 Arisaka.
      1. stankow
        stankow 18 November 2022 01: 49
        0
        But he also had his own, Fedorovsky cartridge, also 6.5 mm. Did not have time to finalize, the war. And he took Arisaka. Not that, the rifle was still there.
        1. tatarin1972
          tatarin1972 18 November 2022 06: 53
          0
          Most likely, the fact is that the First World War began, and in the Russian army there was a constant "cartridge hunger".
    2. John Smith
      John Smith 17 November 2022 06: 39
      -3
      Quote: BIGLESHIY
      Designer Fedorov worked for 6 mm. caliber. And did a great job of creating a cartridge
      how do I remember the famous Fedorov, the inventor of the cartridge for Arisaka))))) don’t you remember what was the hardest work in getting a pack of Japanese cartridges from a pokki or in printing a pack? Fedorov, well done, attributing someone else's to him is just insulting him, he deserves a monument and not pulling other people's boots on his corpse
      1. Puzoter
        Puzoter 17 November 2022 20: 49
        +2
        The Fedorov assault rifle had its own, original cartridge, which Fedorov himself developed. However, due to the difficulties of producing a new cartridge in wartime, the existing machine guns were converted to the Arisak cartridge, which were in large quantities in warehouses.
      2. BIGLESHIY
        BIGLESHIY 18 November 2022 05: 46
        -1
        Quote from John Smith
        Quote: BIGLESHIY
        Designer Fedorov worked for 6 mm. caliber. And did a great job of creating a cartridge
        how do I remember the famous Fedorov, the inventor of the cartridge for Arisaka))))) don’t you remember what was the hardest work in getting a pack of Japanese cartridges from a pokki or in printing a pack? Fedorov, well done, attributing someone else's to him is just insulting him, he deserves a monument and not pulling other people's boots on his corpse

        Learn how to punctuate first. Where did you see that I attributed someone else's to Fedorov? Fedorov developed his cartridge, taking as an example the cartridge for "Arisaka". Fedorov's work was reprinted in the first issues of the Weapons magazine. Find the magazine binder on the Internet, you can still find it. You will learn many new things for yourself.
        1. John Smith
          John Smith 18 November 2022 11: 18
          -1
          can you read, for example, about a navi cartridge?) Patent bureaus do not issue patents for the number six, even if you attribute 6mm, come up with a body, insert a bullet and a primer, this is, frankly, not a task of the level to invent a stormtrooper or debug the operation of ABC, these in the US stop hundreds of millions every day engaged in handicraftsmen, wildcats are called, many are successful, sometimes without any education,
          and you call this an achievement on sober cabbage soup?
          besides, it was not even produced, a great invention that was never produced and did not serve? it cannot even be argued that the automation for it was worked out,
          there were no full-fledged tests, but our specialist already knows that he was a great patron, yeah, from the cradle to the grave everything is -0,0000000000000000001 milliseconds
          even Yarygin did not cast a monument so quickly) ps. I emphasize that there are no complaints about the machine, for this he is great
    3. Ady66
      Ady66 17 November 2022 07: 44
      +4
      Fedorov used the Arisaka cartridge in his machine gun because at that time there was no intermediate cartridge (7,62x39), and the use of a rifle cartridge (7,62x54) in automatic shooting led to a huge spread of bullets, since it was impossible to hold this machine gun.
      1. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 17 November 2022 08: 47
        +11
        Quote: Ady66
        Fedorov used the Arisaka cartridge in his machine gun because at that time there was no intermediate cartridge (7,62x39),

        Actually, Fedorov created his machine gun under his own 6,5x57 mm cartridge! The Japanese cartridge (6,5x50 mm) he was forced to use!
        1. Ady66
          Ady66 17 November 2022 09: 07
          +4
          Because there were Japanese cartridges, but it was necessary to create production for your own. I meant that the power of a rifle cartridge for automatic individual weapons is excessive.
        2. insafufa
          insafufa 18 November 2022 08: 02
          -1
          6,5 x 57 is more of a cartridge for a rifle, but in the end he offered an intermediate option if memory serves under 6,5x45
          1. Nikolaevich I
            Nikolaevich I 18 November 2022 09: 02
            +2
            Quote: insafufa
            he eventually offered an intermediate option if memory serves under 6,5x45

            Fedorov did not create or offer such a cartridge! Although cartridges of 6,5 mm caliber of different "lengths" exist in the world! Of the modern ones, one can name the Grendel cartridge (6,5x38 mm) ... The 6,5x45 mm cartridge was invented, perhaps, by the "alternatives"!
            1. insafufa
              insafufa 18 November 2022 09: 50
              -1
              As a result, in 1947 equipment began to be exported from Italy, and in 1948 they began to assemble it in Izhevsk. The introduction of the M43 cartridge and weapons for it into the mass series was suspended, and the GRAU issued a new TTT for the 6,5 mm caliber cartridge, which was created in 1949 under the general supervision of Fedorov. To optimize its use in automatic weapons, the base Carcano cartridge was shortened by a cartridge case and a bullet. The cartridge was intended to replace both the M43 and the Mosin cartridge. Below are some variants of this cartridge for use in a machine gun (barrel length 60 cm), automatic rifle (barrel length 50 cm) and assault rifle (barrel length 415 mm).

              So, cartridge 6,5x45 Russian M49.
              1. Nikolaevich I
                Nikolaevich I 18 November 2022 10: 46
                +1
                Quote: insafufa
                So, cartridge 6,5x45 Russian M49

                I repeat ... this cartridge is known to me on the Internet, but, as I remember. he met on the sites of alternatives ... as I remember! And how not to “moon” this topic, for an assault rifle and a self-loading rifle of his own designs, Fedorov created only a cartridge of 6,5x57 mm! Everything else is unrealistic or "pampering"! For an "intermediate" cartridge of 7,62x39 mm arr. 1943 was created. !
        3. Centurion70
          Centurion70 25 November 2022 22: 35
          0
          Perhaps I’ll supplement you, Fedorov’s weapon chambered for the Japanese cartridge (whose production was still established in 1916 at the St. under the Fedorov cartridge and actually was a machine gun) and it was originally called a machine gun, i.e. according to modern classification, a light machine gun.
      2. Bormanxnumx
        Bormanxnumx 17 November 2022 11: 59
        0
        Quote: Ady66
        Fedorov used the Arisaka cartridge in his machine gun because at that time there was no intermediate cartridge (7,62x39), and the use of a rifle cartridge (7,62x54) in automatic shooting led to a huge spread of bullets, since it was impossible to hold this machine gun.

        Fedorov's "native" cartridge 6.5x57 accelerated an 8.5-gram bullet to 850 m / s. and had 3000J. , Arisakovsky 2600+ J. and were typical rifle cartridges of their time. How much can you procrastinate fairy tales about the forerunner of intermediate cartridges.
    4. Eule
      Eule 17 November 2022 09: 12
      0
      70 years have passed since the development of the AK layout. As the commission of 1947 noted, the lack of accuracy when shooting while standing - it remained so. Because there will be no miracle. As long as the center of gravity of the moving parts is not on the axis of the barrel, and it, in turn, is not on the axis of the middle of the supporting part of the butt, there will be dispersion upward and to the right.
      Without a "nationwide" competition for a new balanced machine, nothing can be fixed. If they are afraid of competition - the patent for AR10 has expired, let it be repeated for a start as a serial weapon. But it is with all the chips in the form of a small shutter, almost symmetrical along the axis.
      1. IImonolitII
        IImonolitII 17 November 2022 13: 53
        -1
        Why ar10. We look at hk 416, sig mcx - ar15 with a gas piston. We look at Hk 433, AUG, G36, scar, daewoo K - automation and ar18 assembly in new cases. But we don’t have such a production) here we need a lot of CNC, but we don’t have them
      2. Svateev
        Svateev 17 November 2022 18: 12
        0
        Quote: eule
        with all the chips in the form of a small shutter, almost symmetrical along the axis.

        And the powder gases plant in the receiver, too, with all the ensuing problems that the Americans took a very long time to solve. This scheme requires:
        - gunpowder with extremely low soot formation;
        - wiped from the lubrication of the inside of the machine, otherwise it will coke after the first magazine. Because of what, the Americans first died in platoons.
        1. AlAvis
          AlAvis 17 November 2022 21: 22
          0
          What kind of "powder gas plant" are we talking about, even if the Unitites themselves are switching to a scheme with a short piston stroke (the notorious M-5).
          1. Svateev
            Svateev 17 November 2022 23: 07
            +1
            Quote from Avis
            What kind of "powder gas plant" are we talking about, even if the Uniters themselves switch to a scheme with a short piston stroke (the notorious M-5)

            The piston, even with a short stroke, gives an impulse in the lateral direction (up and down), because it is above the axis of the bore. Of course, the momentum of a short-stroke piston is less than that of an AK, but it is there. To get rid of this impulse, it is necessary to supply gases to the shutter. Or add a balancing anti-mass, like AEK.
            1. Daddy pig
              Daddy pig 21 November 2022 17: 36
              0
              Can you explain what the "impulse in the LATERAL UP-DOWN direction" looks like?
              And how does a "side impulse up and down" appear when the piston moves ALONG the axis of the bore?
        2. Terran ghost
          Terran ghost 21 November 2022 10: 44
          0
          Quote: Svateev
          the insides of the machine wiped from lubrication, otherwise it will coke after the first store

          Where the nonsense about "coking after the first store" came from is completely incomprehensible. Apparently sucked from the finger / taken from the ceiling.
          Well, the causes of the problems of the first production AR15 / XM16 during the Vietnam War have been sorted out for a very long time, and there are a lot of publications on the topic. In a nutshell, a combination of three factors "worked" - an unscheduled replacement of gunpowder from standard to worse in quality, giving much more soot; the absence of the chrome plating of a number of weapon parts, which was originally provided for by the design, primarily the chamber (weapon manufacturers tried to save on production, apparently); a long lack of weapon cleaning ("a broken phone" turned the original advertising slogan about the XM16 "needing much less maintenance and cleaning than any other weapon" as a result into "this weapon does not need to be cleaned, it cleans itself"). And all this was superimposed on a hot and humid climate. The result is the rapid rusting of weapon mechanisms. The sleeve often literally "became attached" to the rusty chamber. After the shot, in this case, the extractor tore off part of the sleeve, but basically it remained in the chamber and it could only be knocked out from there manually with a ramrod.
    5. Terran ghost
      Terran ghost 17 November 2022 09: 35
      +1
      Fedorov worked for 6 mm. caliber. And he did a great job of creating a cartridge for this caliber. Even before the revolution, he created an automaton

      Fedorov really advocated for the 6,5mm caliber. But it was a "full-sized" rifle cartridge, albeit with a lighter bullet. This time.
      And two. The question is in terms. According to Fedorov, "automatic" - an automatic rifle again under the same "full-size" rifle cartridge and with interchangeable box magazines for 20-25 rounds. Moreover, according to the views of the designer himself, only the best selected arrows should have been equipped with "automatic machines". For an ordinary infantryman, he saw a self-loading rifle as a promising weapon.
      1. BIGLESHIY
        BIGLESHIY 18 November 2022 05: 55
        0
        Quote: Terran Ghost
        Fedorov worked for 6 mm. caliber. And he did a great job of creating a cartridge for this caliber. Even before the revolution, he created an automaton

        Fedorov really advocated for the 6,5mm caliber. But it was a "full-sized" rifle cartridge, albeit with a lighter bullet. This time.
        And two. The question is in terms. According to Fedorov, "automatic" - an automatic rifle again under the same "full-size" rifle cartridge and with interchangeable box magazines for 20-25 rounds. Moreover, according to the views of the designer himself, only the best selected arrows should have been equipped with "automatic machines". For an ordinary infantryman, he saw a self-loading rifle as a promising weapon.

        Then they didn’t come / mature to the concept of an intermediate cartridge and an assault rifle (machine gun). And in terms of the best shooters, this is from the point of view of the economy. An inexperienced shooter will release the entire BZ in a minute. The treasury is not infinite.
        1. Terran ghost
          Terran ghost 18 November 2022 10: 14
          0
          Quote: BIGLESHIY
          Then they didn’t come / mature to the concept of an intermediate cartridge and an assault rifle (machine gun).

          Well, the Riberoil carbine chambered for the "intermediate class" appeared as early as 1918. Only then the military was not at all interested in this type of weapon, then light machine guns were still expected to conduct effective fire on area targets at large (more than 1000 meters) distances.
          And in terms of the best shooters, this is from the point of view of the economy. An inexperienced shooter will release the entire BZ in a minute. The treasury is not infinite.

          I would suggest that it’s not even so much ... The key here is that the “automatic” according to Fedorov was supposed to be chambered for a “full-size” rifle cartridge. Hence the recoil and the heating of the barrel. And the main mode of firing weapons is still single, with the transition to firing bursts only when necessary, at close range and in conditions when it will be effective.
          By the way, the American M14 rifle (with which the translator of fire modes was regularly filmed) and its "machine-gun" modification M14E2 is just almost the "weapon system according to Fedorov" is. Unless the Americans switched to a rifle caliber of 6,5mm.
    6. boni592807
      boni592807 17 November 2022 18: 21
      -1
      BIGLESHIY (Alexey). Today, 05:45. -"... Designer Fedorov worked for the 6-mm caliber. And did a great job of creating a cartridge for this caliber ..."

      Yes. but as under the king and after. as now, "there is no prophet in their Fatherland" could not "be in time." and then "trends with tracks" (5.45) and the Japanese mother "Arisaka" had to use. And this is ALMOST. but not THAT. belay No.
      Question.
      And Russia has time.? request feel until the next Tops. on aggressive tracks in fuck... locations. will MONEY budget master? bully wink
      Can. сredi incl. PRESENT there will be new Left-handers and Kulibins. Fedorovs and Kalashnikovs in order to PLEASE the "partners" with the refinement of the AVAILABLE - 7.62. and not in "BRIGHT TOMORROW" drinks . You know the topic. hands are normal and .... and whoever knows whom - show-off "wins" And then. THEY ("PARTNERS") can "hike" the Russian Federation to ZAVRT and "copper basins". And not necessarily nuclear weapons. This is while they warm up and feel the bruises. They will not multiply by x 0 until they calm down. not washing . so skating?
      hi
      1. BIGLESHIY
        BIGLESHIY 18 November 2022 06: 03
        0
        To please the "partners" with the modified 7,62, "Kalashnikovs" + "Mendeleevs" are needed. Do we have them now? Or are they yet to grow? And we really don't have much time. hi
  5. mmaxx
    mmaxx 17 November 2022 05: 47
    +3
    Regarding instability when shooting from AKM, you need to ask practical shooters. Maybe all that is needed is to attach the DTK? Which is on the AK-74.
    And so, in my incompetent opinion, it is necessary to re-press the 7.62x39 sleeve and the bullet a little less. 6.8 mm or something like that. Let the experts decide. Yet 7,62 NATO is too much. I remember TV footage of Belfast in the 70s from childhood. Like the British, who fired from their knees, were knocked over by several shots single shots. Screw L1. She is FAL.
    1. paul3390
      paul3390 17 November 2022 06: 39
      +7
      it is necessary to re-compress the sleeve 7.62x39

      And there is such a cartridge, moreover, it is produced at the BPZ! The notorious American Grendel. It is our sleeve, compressed under 6.5. I shot from the Molotov VPO-128 - the impressions are the most positive ..

      1. mmaxx
        mmaxx 17 November 2022 09: 20
        0
        This I know. It's just a long-range cartridge. Maybe just a smaller bullet so that the weight is less. But again, this is up to you. The question is, why fence a garden, if almost everything is there.
        1. paul3390
          paul3390 17 November 2022 09: 45
          -2
          Not very clear. The same AK under Grendel - just re-barrel and change the return. And - although still entirely. And that's it. Even the old shops will do.
      2. Diverxnumx
        Diverxnumx 17 November 2022 09: 45
        +2
        The sleeve is not quite the same - Grendel has a much smaller taper. But if you re-press only the barrel of the sleeve under 6,5-6,8, then you don’t even have to change magazines under 7,62. In principle, on modern powders it will be possible to squeeze out the same 2000 J of muzzle energy in the new caliber (as on 7.62x39) with the same barrel length with a slight decrease in its resource (PMSM, no less than 5,45).
        1. paul3390
          paul3390 17 November 2022 10: 30
          0
          In general, all legs, including American ones, grow from the Soviet cartridge 5,6x39 .. Already in 1962 .. In the West, it is quite known as .220 Russian ... For hunting, it turned out to be too fast, it tore the carcass godlessly, and for krupnyak it is low-powered, therefore it was not particularly popular in this environment. But for sports shooting - just right. Well, the cunning mattress covers were already re-rolled under 6.5. They say - at the end of the USSR, we also had such almost finished developments. But then - as always, they squeezed the loot.

          As I understand it, there are no problems at all. You take a standard sleeve and re-compress. You just have to play around with gunpowder.
          1. Svateev
            Svateev 17 November 2022 18: 16
            0
            Quote: paul3390
            As I understand it, there are no problems at all. You take a standard sleeve and re-compress.

            How simple it turns out... laughing
            1. paul3390
              paul3390 17 November 2022 20: 30
              0
              And what's difficult? There is a sleeve, equipment too, there is a production of 6.5 bullets, gunpowder too. AND??
              1. Svateev
                Svateev 17 November 2022 23: 10
                +1
                Quote: paul3390
                What's so complicated?

                And everything else is complicated: the weapon needs to be redesigned for new internal ballistics: the size of the chamber, the length of the barrel, all the gas automatics, the springs of the return mechanism ... It is necessary to design a new weapon.
        2. prodi
          prodi 17 November 2022 13: 01
          0
          and if you re-press only the 7.62x39 barrel of the cartridge case under the previous 5.45 (and not all of it, as in the 5.45x39 cartridge), then how much energy can be squeezed out (from the previous caliber) at practical combat distances ...
          1. Diverxnumx
            Diverxnumx 17 November 2022 13: 37
            0
            5,6x39 from Bloom to you for reference - with a 3,5 g bullet, the speed is about 1000 m / s (although I won’t say at what barrel length). This is 1750 J of muzzle energy. Yes, this is 25% more than the standard 5,45 (about 1400 J), but in 223 rem such muzzle energy is not uncommon.
            1. prodi
              prodi 17 November 2022 13: 42
              -2
              at practical combat distances, the muzzle energy of a bullet is more affected by its speed than its mass (although there will be increased barrel wear in the red)
            2. Svateev
              Svateev 17 November 2022 18: 19
              +1
              Quote from Diver0
              This is 1750 J of muzzle energy.

              Muzzle energy by itself DOES NOT GUARANTEE PUNCHING ACTION. Is important "specific energy of a bullet (kinetic energy of a bullet, referred to its cross-sectional area)" - http://svateev-va.rf/sib-teorija.html
              1. Diverxnumx
                Diverxnumx 17 November 2022 22: 03
                0
                Excuse me, you are probably used to playing the role of Captain Obvious?)) Can you tell us more that the Earth revolves around the Sun, and 2x2=4? :)
                1. Svateev
                  Svateev 17 November 2022 23: 14
                  0
                  Quote from Diver0
                  you are probably used to playing the role of Captain Obvious?)

                  Did you know about the parameter that determines the penetration action of a bullet? Then why were they silent when people here discuss the energy of a bullet as such and come to the wrong conclusion that it is necessary to increase the caliber?
                  1. Diverxnumx
                    Diverxnumx 18 November 2022 09: 36
                    +1
                    1. "Did you know about the parameter that determines the penetration action of a bullet?" - but it's not obvious to you from my answer?)) 2. "Then why were they silent" - so no one asked)). And they didn’t hire me to do educational program)). 3. "and comes to the wrong conclusion that it is necessary to increase the caliber" - there is still a sense in increasing the caliber (in a standard rifled barrel), since it allows the use of longer bullets with a higher specific load (mass / cross-sectional area) without losing stability. Of course, this does not increase the specific energy of the bullet (this depends on the cartridge-barrel complex), but it allows you to save sufficient specific energy at a greater distance. Available, I hope I explained it?)) PS Still, the future belongs to sub-caliber arrow bullets, despite your skepticism. And yes, in the USSR these developments were almost brought to mind - conservatism / inertia and the collapse of the Union prevented.
                    1. Svateev
                      Svateev 18 November 2022 18: 10
                      0
                      Quote from Diver0
                      And they didn’t hire me to do educational program))

                      Unfortunately, I don't have the money to pay you either. what

                      Quote from Diver0
                      the future belongs to sub-caliber arrow bullets ... in the USSR, these developments were almost brought to mind - conservatism / inertia and the collapse of the Union prevented.

                      No. The fatal flaws of the scheme interfered - pallet sectors flying out at the speed of a bullet into neighbors. In addition, the pallet is ballast, which adds extra recoil, pressure in the chamber, etc.
                      1. Diverxnumx
                        Diverxnumx 21 November 2022 14: 53
                        0
                        1. "The unrecoverable shortcomings of the scheme interfered - pallet sectors flying out at the speed of a bullet into neighbors" - there was a nozzle for crushing pallets. Yes, the dimensions did not suit, but due to the closure of the topic, there was no room for improvement. You also read Dvoryaninov's article, and participated in the discussion ...)) 2. "a pallet is a ballast that adds extra recoil, pressure in the chamber, etc." - any new solution has disadvantages. But, if we compare 4,5 / 10, 7,62x54, 6x49, the first one has a significant advantage in DPV, wind drift, flight time and, if evaluated by kinetic energy density, much better penetration of SIBZ. A bonus is the high survivability of the barrel, even compared to 7,62x54, not to mention 6x49.
          2. paul3390
            paul3390 17 November 2022 14: 43
            +1
            I'm afraid that the barrel will not withstand the increased speeds .. The wear will be too great.
            1. prodi
              prodi 17 November 2022 14: 51
              0
              somewhere up to 1200 m / s in a standard shell (before breaking off the rifling) is quite possible; but you will have to work out a stock of interchangeable barrels (in units and with interested fighters), as well as "wean them" from thoughtless automatic fire
              In any case, it will be cheaper than re-equipping with a different caliber
            2. Svateev
              Svateev 17 November 2022 18: 25
              +1
              Quote: paul3390
              The barrel will not withstand high speeds ..

              For a caliber 6-mm bullet with an initial speed of 1080 m/s, the survivability of the rifled barrel TsNIITOCHMASH brought to more than 10 thousand shots. Although less than the usual 20 for the Ministry of Defense, it is quite acceptable.
              BUT 1080m/s is not enough to penetrate the tested experimental armor.
              1. Puzoter
                Puzoter 18 November 2022 11: 50
                0
                Exactly. No matter how you remake the cartridge, but in order to penetrate promising body armor, you need more power, which means more recoil momentum and greater dispersion, which calls into question the very possibility of automatic firing. Therefore, perhaps it is necessary not to invent intermediate calibers, but to return to the semi-automatic rifle of the M1 type and increase the saturation of units with machine guns.
                1. Svateev
                  Svateev 18 November 2022 18: 13
                  0
                  Quote: puzoter
                  more power is needed, which means more recoil momentum

                  You need a lot of SPECIFIC energy. And it can be obtained by increasing the speed and at the same time reducing the weight of the bullet to keep the recoil at an acceptable level. One of their options is an arrow-shaped bullet. True, there the pallet creates other problems.
      3. Pavel57
        Pavel57 17 November 2022 14: 25
        0
        The Serbs converted the AK to Grendel. Produced in series.
  6. Setavr
    Setavr 17 November 2022 05: 56
    +5
    7,62x39 and a 500mm barrel?
    We also had an SKS with a 520 mm barrel. The difference in bullet energy is negligible.
    AKM 2000 J and SKS 2150 J.
    An attempt to revive 7,62x39 only causes bewilderment.
    1. Bingo
      Bingo 17 November 2022 06: 46
      +6
      Quote: Setavr
      The difference in bullet energy is negligible.

      And exactly serious, just ran with the SCS ...
    2. Ady66
      Ady66 17 November 2022 07: 48
      +5
      It's not about energy, it's about shooting accuracy. I had a chance to serve in the air defense, where the SCS remained. My impressions were very positive (in comparison with AKM). Including from disassembly-assembly.
  7. fiberboard
    fiberboard 17 November 2022 05: 58
    +6
    Good article. I just don’t understand why the author believes that AKM is not very accurate at a hundred meters? There it was necessary to shoot single shots (as far as I remember). Maybe two short ones. On the contrary, I did better with AKM than with AK-74. And why did the author forget about SCS? He is also accurate. Why not make a barrel on AKM like on SKS? But with SCS it’s not very difficult to get to 300 meters, for a moderately trained shooter. You can upgrade the SCS and equip one or two Strelkov (Marksmans) with it. And you need to work hard with the cartridges. In vain we switched to 5,45.
    1. paul3390
      paul3390 17 November 2022 06: 49
      +6
      Here with SCS then get to 300 meters

      It's so difficult. More precisely, it is difficult to achieve stability. SCS has an unpleasant feature - let's say 4 in the bull's-eye, the fifth in the gap. At least crack. And from the machine. As soon as the people do not fight it, so far no one seems to have been able to fight it. This seems to be connected with the design of the bed, after all, it is difficult to keep the piece of wood in perfect order. Who dressed in bourgeois plastic - they say it seems to be better with this, although he himself has not tried it. I like mine in its original form .. And so:

      1. fiberboard
        fiberboard 17 November 2022 07: 00
        0
        Well, they’re doing a store for him from AKM and that’s it. Good photo.
        1. paul3390
          paul3390 17 November 2022 07: 11
          +6
          The AK magazine can only be adapted by washing down the box pretty well. What our native LRO looks at with extreme suspicion. Therefore, they use the following stores:

      2. garri-lin
        garri-lin 17 November 2022 20: 57
        -1
        If you work very closely and thoughtfully with the SCS, you will get an excellent carbine. With the optional ability to conduct automatic fire. Exactly what you need in the field. And if you also work with cartridges in terms of armor-piercing cores adapted to breaking through new armor, then there will be a weapon of a new level.
        1. paul3390
          paul3390 17 November 2022 22: 08
          +1
          SCS is already a great reliable thing. You just don’t need to demand from him something for which he was not sharpened. Although - of course, a wooden stock and clip-on loading in our time is already a fair anachronism.
          1. garri-lin
            garri-lin 18 November 2022 00: 12
            +1
            Those who thoughtfully modify it to suit their fantasies sometimes achieve phenomenal results. This is an occasion to reflect on how outdated the weapon is in fact. Perhaps the modernization potential has not been exhausted.
    2. ratcatcher
      ratcatcher 18 November 2022 00: 09
      0
      That's right. I also shot short bursts more accurately with akm, although it is believed that the accuracy and accuracy of 5,45 is better.
      But according to tests, 5,45 just has the best penetration of SIBZ due to the higher bullet speed. There was a good test with the notorious rail - and so 5,45 breaks through it more efficiently. 7,62 has higher energy and stopping power. But at 5,45, the ammunition with 8 stores weighs 1,5 kg less at once. This is important.
  8. Alien From
    Alien From 17 November 2022 06: 09
    +1
    Thanks to the author, the message is clear: weapon tuning ends with a headshot.
  9. nemez
    nemez 17 November 2022 06: 10
    +2
    Hmm, Roman. I didn’t expect it. During the Second World War, a lot of new weapons appeared, and to attribute self-propelled guns to artillery is complete nonsense. PPSh, PPS (development of the beginning of the war); Su-152, IS, T-34-85 (essentially a new machine) - developments during the war. I am silent about artillery - the ZIS-3 was developed by 41, but was considered redundant.
    1. tatarin1972
      tatarin1972 17 November 2022 06: 41
      +2
      This is how they treated artillery, the abbreviations self-propelled artillery decipher itself.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 17 November 2022 11: 23
        +3
        Quote: tatarin1972
        This is how they treated artillery, the abbreviations self-propelled artillery decipher itself.

        Nope. In the wartime USSR, self-propelled guns belonged to armored personnel carriers. They even had tank staffs - without any AIR, spotters, topographical surveys, calculation of data for firing from the PDO, etc.
        The reason is simple - all Soviet self-propelled guns of the Second World War were either assault (including SU-76) or anti-tank. What they suffered from, since the infantry commanders (and some of the tank commanders - remember Dey from Kurochkin's autobiographical "In War, As in War") did not see the difference between self-propelled guns and tanks.
    2. Bingo
      Bingo 17 November 2022 06: 56
      +7
      Quote: nemez
      I did not expect. During the Second World War, a lot of new weapons appeared

      Come on, how did he forget the La-5 - it’s generally a cackle))) Still, it cannot be considered a modernized LaGG - everything is different.
      But the bottom line is that everything is very attracted. There the situation was - at least something, but give. Matilda - to hell with her, there will be Matilda, Renault will get caught - let's at least Renault. And here the question is how to fight further, in the future, there is no martial law in the country, we are not turning trunks on our last efforts ...
      1. Ady66
        Ady66 17 November 2022 07: 56
        0
        La-5, in fact LaGG-3 with a different engine. La-5F and La-5FN, in these machines the changes concerned mainly the engine and the replacement of some parts of the airframe with metal ones. La-7 - the airframe design remained the same, but made of aluminum.
        1. Bingo
          Bingo 17 November 2022 08: 05
          +2
          With a different engine, with a different glider, with different weapons, and as a result, you need to fly it in a completely different way, for example, this is the first USSR aircraft that does not stall at negative g-forces, and therefore it was not necessary to spin through the wing. And yes, it looks like a T-90 on a wedge
          1. Ady66
            Ady66 17 November 2022 08: 25
            +1
            On the La-5, the airframe remained the same, and the engine was carbureted, as on the La-5F. Fuel injection was added to La-5FN. I repeat, the design of the airframe DID NOT CHANGE, in the course of modernization, the design only became lighter, due to the increasing use of aluminum, and aerodynamics improved.
      2. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 17 November 2022 08: 53
        +3
        Quote from Bingo
        how he forgot the La-5 - it’s generally a cackle))) Still, it cannot be considered a modernized LaGG - everything is different.

        Like the Yak-3 compared with the Yak-1 ...
      3. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 17 November 2022 11: 27
        +2
        Quote from Bingo
        Come on, how did he forget the La-5 - it’s generally a cackle))) Still, it cannot be considered a modernized LaGG - everything is different.

        Come on. For the first six months, La-5s were generally produced with a nose from LaGG-3 and a double skin in the nose - to reduce the M-82 "saucer" to the old hull.
        So the La-5 family is a direct continuation of the LaGG-3 through modernization.
        1. Bingo
          Bingo 17 November 2022 11: 44
          +2
          Dog with him, too lazy to argue. Just think - MG-42 and MG-34 are DIFFERENT machine guns, all the differences are stamping instead of milling and feeding the tape from either side, and different motors, that is, centering at least - the same airframe. Do you realize that the same centering will not work long and wide? It means that what flew with a long one - KueldnetsO on landing with a wide one! How many times was it when in the process one motor was replaced by another - ALWAYS, without exception, the glider was redrawn. It’s the same with the shop, it’s just that there was more blunder, but completely two different aircraft, not even to mention the mechanization of the wing
          1. Ady66
            Ady66 17 November 2022 12: 09
            +3
            An excerpt from the book by N. V. Yakubovich "Fighter La-5. Broke the back of the Luftwaffe":
            “In October 1941,” said Semyon Mikhailovich Alekseev, who for many years was deputy to S.A. Lavochkin ..... When we brought the mock-up M-82 to the fire barrier of LaGG-3, the center of gravity of the engine turned out to be closer to the center of gravity of the aircraft than that of the M-105 and the “extra” 250 kg had almost no effect on centering, it only had to move some small things from the equipment to the tail ..
          2. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 17 November 2022 12: 38
            +2
            Quote from Bingo
            How many times was it when in the process one motor was replaced by another - ALWAYS, without exception, the glider was redrawn.

            With the exception of the power plant and changes in the design associated with the installation of the M-82 engine, the La-5 airframe was identical to the LaGG-3 airframe of the 35th series, both types of fighters were built at the plant in Nizhny Novgorod for some time at the same time.

            The semi-monocoque fuselage is structurally similar to the LaGG fuselage - completely wooden with birch frames, triangular section stringers and bakelite skin.

            Actually, that is why the LaGG-5 managed to be pushed through - it could be produced on the existing equipment and equipment from the LaGG-3.
            ... the plant building the LaGG-3 with the M-105P engine can start producing the LaGG-3 with the M-82 engine in about a month and meet the set schedule in two months

            The same six months of production of the "double-shielded" La-5 were due to the fact that the plant did not have specialists for the manufacture of equipment and devices for a normal nose - and the plant continued to drive the native LaGG-3 fuselages, cutting them off to install the M-82 and building on top " light body."
            And then there were no cardinal changes in the design of the La-5 - only modifications and modernization by the "method of successive approximation".
            La-5 can be considered as an intermediate option to more advanced modifications of a fighter with an air-cooled engine: the M-82 engines were docked with the LaGG-3 gliders with the minimum possible design and technological changes. The launch of the intermediate version into a series saved time while the La-5 was being produced, a new modification of the aircraft was developed at the Lavochkin Design Bureau, in which the designers tried to cure the “diseases” of the first version. So, the visibility from the cockpit has been improved. Equipped with the ASh-82F engine, the new La-5 variant was put into production at the beginning of 1943.
            © "War in the Air" No. 69.
    3. faiver
      faiver 17 November 2022 08: 24
      +3
      ZIS-3 was developed by 41, but was considered redundant.
      - probably all the same ZIS-2?
    4. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 17 November 2022 11: 19
      +3
      Quote: nemez
      PCA

      Developed before the war under the program of a new mass-produced submachine gun for the Red Army to replace the PPD. Adopted on 21.12.1940/XNUMX/XNUMX
      In fact, the PPSh was the same PP that the army requested back in the early 30s. smile
      Quote: nemez
      Su-152

      On the one hand - a pre-war gun-howitzer on a modernized base of the pre-war KV. And on the other hand, the crown of work on adapting military-designed KV-7 hulls to at least something.
      Quote: nemez
      T-34-85 (essentially a new car)

      No, this is an upgrade. The new car would be the T-43.
      And the T-34-85 is all the same candles and the same 45-mm forehead, which was considered thin even before the war.

      But the fact that the author forgot about almost a dozen and a half thousand new tanks developed during the Second World War is yes. I'm talking about the T-60 - T-70 family. wink
      1. Terran ghost
        Terran ghost 17 November 2022 11: 48
        0
        Quote: Alexey RA
        In fact, the PPSh was the same PP that the army requested back in the early 30s.

        I’m not at all sure that the Red Army in the early 1930s asked for at least some kind of submachine gun. At that time, submachine guns were generally considered a class of weapons of little use in military affairs, while the configuration of "promising infantry weapons" at that time looked like a "self-loading rifle + magazine-fed light machine gun."
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 17 November 2022 17: 53
          +1
          Quote: Terran Ghost
          I’m not at all sure that the Red Army in the early 1930s asked for at least some kind of submachine gun. At that time, submachine guns were generally considered a class of weapons of little use in military affairs, while the configuration of "promising infantry weapons" at that time looked like a "self-loading rifle + magazine-fed light machine gun."

          This is the line infantry configuration. For her - yes, PP was considered of little use.
          But the Red Army in the 30s issued a task for the PP, based on the armament of commanders, certain categories of soldiers of the Red Army, machine-gun and gun crews, specialists, airborne troops, and vehicle drivers.
          Ideally, the military wanted PPSh - a cheap, massive, simple PP. And at first they received the "Russian Tommy Gun" AKA PPD-34. smile And only when the military-industrial complex mastered stamping and welding in the late 30s, it became possible to carry out the initial TTT of the Army.
          1. Terran ghost
            Terran ghost 18 November 2022 10: 33
            +1
            Quote: Alexey RA
            And only when the military-industrial complex in the late 30s mastered stamping and welding

            And actually it was then that the submachine gun fully and "debuted" as an army weapon. The reason is extremely simple - a weapon with an effective fire range of 100-120 meters (and for submachine guns chambered for 9x19mm, these were about the same figures) at the price of an almost full-fledged light machine gun, it was "well, such a thing."
    5. Genry
      Genry 17 November 2022 12: 42
      +1
      Quote: nemez
      ZIS-3 was developed by 41, but was considered redundant.

      76mm was not redundant, but suddenly it became 57mm? You do not believe the fairy tales of writers - these are still those myth-makers.
      The 57mm gun did not go because of its complexity in the manufacture of the barrel - at that time a very large relative elongation.
      Right now, for the Coalition, a 54-caliber gun is hardly made - in the West, too, with problems.
      1. Pavel57
        Pavel57 17 November 2022 14: 28
        -1
        The 57mm gun did not work at first due to the backwardness of the machine park. After receiving new machines under Lend-Lease, it was successfully produced. Even the British looked at her.
        1. Bormanxnumx
          Bormanxnumx 17 November 2022 15: 36
          +2
          Quote: Pavel57
          The 57mm gun did not work at first due to the backwardness of the machine park. After receiving new machines under Lend-Lease, it was successfully produced. Even the British looked at her

          The British had a 6-pounder, which, with a barrel length of 50 calibers and due to the good quality of English gunpowder, was practically not inferior to ours in breaking through.
    6. nedgen
      nedgen 18 November 2022 01: 42
      0
      Quote: nemez
      Hmm, Roman. I didn’t expect it. During the Second World War, a lot of new weapons appeared, and to attribute self-propelled guns to artillery is complete nonsense. PPSh, PPS (development of the beginning of the war); Su-152, IS, T-34-85 (essentially a new machine) - developments during the war. I am silent about artillery - the ZIS-3 was developed by 41, but was considered redundant.

      Sorry, but I'll correct you. The ZiS-2 was developed before the war, and I think the reason for stopping production was not in excess power, but in too many defects in the production of barrels (sometimes it reached 85%), in addition, the F-22USV and ZIS divisions quite successfully fought against German armored vehicles -3, but they were more versatile and there was more ammunition for them than you can say about the ZiS-2 with its 57mm gauge. The ZiS-3 was developed already during the war on the basis of the ZiS-2. The PPSh was developed in early-mid 1941, and put into service after the start of the Second World War. PPS was developed in 1942-43.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 18 November 2022 10: 32
        0
        Quote: nedgen
        The ZiS-2 was developed before the war, and I think the reason for stopping production was not in excess capacity, but in too many defects in the production of barrels (sometimes it reached 85%)

        The reason is not only in marriage by trunks. The ZIS-2 occupied capacities that were urgently needed for the production of 76-mm divisional guns, without which it was impossible to send freshly formed divisions to the front - because the basis of the firepower of the SD is its artillery regiment. Plus, in a month and a half of the war, by August 1941, the army men managed to lose 3094 76-mm divisions out of 8513 available at the beginning of the war - thus blocking all the calculated pre-war loss rates, estimated at 68% per year.

        Therefore, we decided that it is possible to live at the very least without a specialized VET. There are 45 mm with their 40 mm of real armor penetration at 150-200 m, 76 mm divisions with their 35 mm at 300 m, 76 mm and 85 mm anti-aircraft guns, plus Hartz promises to soon bring armor penetration to theoretical. And the Germans do not have as many tanks as infantry.
        But without complete rifle divisions, the front and the country cannot live.
        Quote: nedgen
        in addition, the F-22USV and ZIS-3 divisions quite successfully fought with German armored vehicles

        They fought hard. No, in theory everything was fine. But in practice, even in the middle of 1942, NII-48 bitterly stated that there was no BBS and that shrapnel had to be massively used to strike.
        Due to the current lack of the required number of chamber armor-piercing shells in artillery units, shooting at German tanks from 76,2-mm divisional guns with shells of other types is common.

        3. Shrapnel is still one of the main armor-piercing projectiles., since at a firing distance of up to 300 meters it is capable of penetrating up to 35 mm of armor, which allows it to be successfully used against light tanks, and at close range (up to 200 m) against the side armor of medium tanks.

        Quote: nedgen
        The PPSh was developed in early-mid 1941, and put into service after the start of the Second World War.

        According to Bolotin, the PPSh was adopted by the Red Army six months before the war - on December 21, 1940.
  10. Ponimatel
    Ponimatel 17 November 2022 06: 26
    +6
    A bunch of contradictions and just stretching.
  11. Vladimir Mikhalev
    Vladimir Mikhalev 17 November 2022 06: 40
    +2
    There was a conversation with the guys from Syria at one time on this topic. What is better 7.62 or 5.45. What to say convinced then. The fact is that more than 300 meters rarely use weapons. And you can take more ammunition 5.45 than 7.62. And basically they shoot at the sound. And this is mostly up to 100 meters. Up to 100 meters until the armor is pierced.
    1. Svateev
      Svateev 17 November 2022 18: 33
      -1
      Quote: Vladimir Mikhalev
      Up to 100 meters until the armor is pierced.

      If only armor of police protection classes - from a pistol and a shotgun. The army bronik does not penetrate not only the 7,62 and 5,45 mm machine guns, but also the SVD.
    2. cat Rusich
      cat Rusich 17 November 2022 22: 08
      +1
      Quote: Vladimir Mikhalev
      There was a conversation with the guys from Syria at one time on this topic. What is better 7.62 or 5.45. What to say convinced then. The fact is that more than 300 meters rarely use weapons. And you can take more ammunition 5.45 than 7.62. And basically they shoot at the sound. And this is mostly up to 100 meters. Up to 100 meters until the armor is pierced.
      The question is how the fighting is conducted ...
      For example, in Ukraine - the battles go on without breaking away from their own positions - the "trench war", the battles in settlements (for example, Pavlovka ...) go on for many days and the soldiers do not come off the supply.
      In the old days, they also "argued" about what kind of bayonet should be - a bayonet-knife (like the Germans) or an Orthodox four-sided bayonet for a mosquito.
      The "raisin" is that the soldiers then died not from bayonets, but from bullets ...
      hi
      1. Vladimir Mikhalev
        Vladimir Mikhalev 18 November 2022 09: 43
        0
        The guys wandered around the rear of ISIS. So there were some nuances.
  12. Guran33 Sergey
    Guran33 Sergey 17 November 2022 06: 42
    +2
    7,62-when this size served, they explained that it was an extreme pain shock causing ..6,8-the author mentioned the difference in gunpowder and this will significantly increase the cost of a cartridge of this caliber .. Under the conditions of the main fire contact distance of 100-150 meters, I I personally put on the good old AKM a bullet which in a third of cases retains lethality after breaking through the earthen parapet of the trench dug by the BTM fellow
  13. Saboteur_Navy
    Saboteur_Navy 17 November 2022 06: 45
    +2
    I don’t know how it is now, but before, deep reconnaissance and tactical preferred the good old AKMS and TT, AK 74 and PM were not successful, armored vehicles, due to their characteristics, were thrown at the bases
    My grandfather was a reconnaissance officer in the Patriotic War, they all had German MPs there, I saw it in the photo myself, and German daggers
    1. paul3390
      paul3390 17 November 2022 06: 57
      +6
      they all had German MPs there

      I think - for reconnaissance, this is solely for reasons of obtaining ammunition behind the front line. Well - and compactness, after all, PPSh, and even with a disk, even that paddle with all its advantages ..
      1. Saboteur_Navy
        Saboteur_Navy 17 November 2022 07: 12
        0
        MP was full, there were no problems with cartridges, I think it was used because it was light
        1. paul3390
          paul3390 17 November 2022 07: 19
          +5
          Yes, not so light - under 5 kg with a magazine ..
        2. solar
          solar 17 November 2022 11: 02
          +1
          It is not easy, the teaching staff was much lighter
          Your comment text is too short
      2. mmaxx
        mmaxx 17 November 2022 09: 24
        +7
        Also because the sound of the shot was "German". And it didn't bother the people around.
    2. Terran ghost
      Terran ghost 17 November 2022 14: 54
      +2
      Quote: Saboteur_Navy
      My grandfather was a reconnaissance officer in the Patriotic War, they all had German MPs there

      There is nothing surprising here, by the way. Captured weapons, when used by reconnaissance and reconnaissance and sabotage military units, have two fundamental advantages.
      Firstly, this is the possibility of replenishing ammunition "by recapturing them from the enemy."
      Secondly, this is the lack of unmasking of the detachment by the characteristic sound of shots.
  14. demchuk.ig
    demchuk.ig 17 November 2022 06: 47
    0
    After the word "horn", he stopped reading.
  15. Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 17 November 2022 06: 59
    -1
    Efficiency versus pocket money. The author has not yet begun to write, but has already lost. I put a plush. What's the point? (
  16. Alex 1970
    Alex 1970 17 November 2022 07: 08
    0
    They like to become Roman, but this one somehow contradicts itself in places, and the statement that during the war there was a limitation of new weapons, well, well. In aviation, one Tu - 2, but what about La? Yes, in general, army 41 and 45, completely different in armament.
    1. 2112vda
      2112vda 17 November 2022 07: 56
      0
      LA-5 and the rest are the usual remotorization of LaGG-3.
      1. Alex 1970
        Alex 1970 17 November 2022 11: 50
        0
        https://tech.wikireading.ru/15121, тут видно что это совершенно разные самолеты
  17. Konstantin Cherny
    Konstantin Cherny 17 November 2022 07: 42
    0
    breaks through speed, 7.62x39 is slow, Americans with M5 are not going to shoot in a long burst, replace gunpowder in 7.62x39 and .... increase the pressure, but how long will the weapons and barrels withstand? how will the returns increase? it is necessary to re-design the machine
    1. ssergey1978
      ssergey1978 17 November 2022 08: 18
      0
      Speed ​​breaks through solid obstacles, loose energy.
    2. 2112vda
      2112vda 17 November 2022 10: 21
      +2
      Naturally, breaks through the speed. If you need a "hole punch" but high-speed small-caliber bullets, that's it. If the target needs to transfer kinetic energy to the maximum, then an increased caliber is needed. There is no need to invent anything here, you just need to turn to the experience of hunting weapons with its increased stopping effect. If you care about the Geneva Convention, then switch to small-caliber arrow-shaped bullets with high penetrating power. If you need to reliably disable the enemy, then you need a medium-caliber weapon with high stopping power. Reports are coming from Ukraine that the "warriors of light" are going on the attack in a stoned state under military drugs. They do not need to be hurt, according to the Geneva Convention, they need to be killed. This was clear back in the Chechen campaign, when the mercenaries also spread nonsense. We wrote about this even then to the relevant departments. But solid "common people" are sitting there, sacredly observing the Geneva Convention, only they don't give a damn about our soldiers.
      Naturally, it is necessary to design a new assault rifle and upgrade the 7,62x39 cartridge.
      1. Konstantin Cherny
        Konstantin Cherny 19 November 2022 08: 52
        0
        Naturally, it is necessary to design a new assault rifle and upgrade the 7,62x39 cartridge.

        this will already entail a new machine
        wounds from 5.56 are no less severe, and for frequent and heavier than from 7,62x39, due to a much larger temporary pulsating cavity, the speed of 7,62x39 is decently lower and the cavity is also smaller, through the body without armor both bullets fly out, as then 7,62 ,39x7,62 will transfer all the energy? And penetration at 39x5,45 will be worse than 7,62, especially at a distance, if you accelerate 39x5,45 to a speed of XNUMX and higher, with the same barrel length, then we’ll come + - to the same thing that the USA came to
  18. fiv
    fiv 17 November 2022 08: 00
    +1
    There are many words. Ideas are few. Those that are, have already been erased at the corners for a long time. One of the main ones is that the AK-12 is a bad machine gun. And the black soil will stain the collimator. And what, the collimator will not stain the black soil on SCAR ?? Or a Picatinny rail? So, AK is a good machine gun. And there has been talk about calibers for 20 years already. But, apparently, the topic is classified with us.
  19. faiver
    faiver 17 November 2022 08: 27
    0
    There are nuances in the examples and arguments in the article, but in general I agree with the author ...
  20. Graz
    Graz 17 November 2022 08: 28
    +1
    and that, besides Kalashnikov, we don’t have machine guns? What about the Nikonov assault rifle and the Kovrov AEK?
  21. SVD68
    SVD68 17 November 2022 08: 28
    +3
    Such reasoning without quantitative evaluation can lead to any arbitrary conclusions. For a real assessment, quantitative indicators of the significance of the analyzed factors are needed.
    For example, the Weapons magazine compared the effectiveness of the PKK and AK based on the results of military tests. And according to statistics, it turns out that the effectiveness of the PKK is only 10-15% higher. That is, for example, where an AK requires 10 rounds to hit a target, then for an RPK 9. This is a real, and not arbitrary, effect of the barrel length.
    Therefore, without a quantitative (statistically based) analysis, all arguments about the choice of caliber, etc. arbitrary.
    1. Sergey Aleksandrovich
      Sergey Aleksandrovich 17 November 2022 09: 41
      +1
      Moreover, is there any point in discussing the RPK at all, if the modern RPK-16 and RPL-20 are ready and already being tested in battles?
  22. erased
    erased 17 November 2022 08: 37
    0
    All over the world they are trying to reduce the length of the barrel, the new models of weapons adopted by the US Army have a barrel length of 330 and 406 mm, respectively. And before you make weapons, you need to make ammunition. We need a new cartridge 7,62x39, which will surpass 7n23 in accuracy and at least a little in armor penetration. But without a real reconstruction of the factories for the production of gunpowder, there is nothing to think about this.
    The range of small-arms combat now really does not exceed 300 meters, and more often does not exceed 100. Here, in general, the AK-104, which was tested in Syria, may come up. But do not put a grenade launcher on it. In the Russian Federation, there are already many samples of civilian weapons with a barrel length of 350 mm. You can take it as a basis for the processing of weapons.
    That the AK-12/15 is re-hung with everything and everyone is a different topic. The machine is made more for practical shooting competitions than for the battlefield. Hence all these strips with sharp edges, landing them on the receiver cover, aperture rear sight, places for attaching flashlights and target designators. But this is only necessary for some units, and even then rather not for the army. Collimator sights are relevant, but is it always?
    But the main question is who will do it? After all, it is not only a matter of changing the caliber, it is a matter of the tactics of rifle units, in their training. And everyone knows what is happening now with this. Give a soldier at least an AK-74, at least an AK-15, at least an SCS, without the right methodology, built on the basis of a specific strategy for using the Armed Forces, any weapon can stupidly "fail to work." For there is no trained fighter, no combat-ready subdivision, unit, formation, and so on up to the Ground Forces and the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation as a whole.
    1. agond
      agond 17 November 2022 08: 53
      0
      Suppose the enemy has moved, for example, to 6.8mm, as a result
      1 at medium distances, the dispersion of automatic fire has critically increased,
      2 weapon weight increased,
      3 if the weight of the equipment carried remains the same, then the number of rounds has decreased
      with all this, the enemy intends to wear protection. from 5.45.
      Suppose someone realizing that it is impossible to create full-fledged protection from 6.8 caliber refuses it altogether, but increased or did not increase the weight of other equipment
      The question is, who won or lost more?
      1. solar
        solar 17 November 2022 11: 09
        0
        one who managed to protect his fighters from the mass enemy cartridge
        1. SVD68
          SVD68 17 November 2022 15: 29
          0
          And which of the two indicated provided protection?
          1. solar
            solar 17 November 2022 20: 14
            0
            from what is written, the enemy, it turns out.
            1. SVD68
              SVD68 18 November 2022 05: 17
              0
              It is not clear until the average hit frequency is given.
              1. solar
                solar 18 November 2022 14: 23
                0
                If the bullet does not pierce the vest, then the average hit rate is pure curiosity out of sporting interest
        2. Barberry25
          Barberry25 17 November 2022 17: 23
          0
          or who will be able to provide each platoon with a light AGS ..
    2. Barberry25
      Barberry25 17 November 2022 17: 21
      -1
      "does not exceed 300 meters" and they obviously do not listen to you in the NWO zone, because there the range is just 400-600 meters, i.e. actual visibility range
  23. Yun Klob
    Yun Klob 17 November 2022 09: 30
    -4
    AKM, this is a car, and "small things" are just for sound.
  24. Khibiny Plastun
    Khibiny Plastun 17 November 2022 09: 30
    0
    Serious work is needed on the topic of cartridge-weapon. Which cartridge is needed 6x49, 7,62x51 or a radical transition to a smooth barrel with a feathered bullet. Moreover, since Soviet times, we have had two whole systems - the Kovrov balanced and the Baryshev system that needs to be finalized. And dancing with 7,62x39 is running in a circle with a deliberate lag behind the west and time thrown into the wind, which is more important than money. The author is the guys on the front end, believe me, they would shoot further 250-300 m from a machine gun if the barrel, cartridge, presence of optics allowed ... But this is "anyway further 100 ... 200 ... 300 m. They don’t shoot "It's all from the Evil One! There is no possibility, only they don’t shoot further than these distances, and if possible, they will hit the enemy at a prohibitive distance for that distance. But what am I talking about, these are the Americans who are looking for, testing, studying, and in the end they will reach and get the advantage of the long arm of their soldier over the enemy, and where will we come?
    1. Barberry25
      Barberry25 17 November 2022 17: 27
      0
      Work? Yes, that’s what research institutes are for, let them secretly develop weapons for various technical requirements under the Soviets, but at this stage we need optics, coordination with artillery and more multiply charged and light AGSs / grenade launchers .. Artillery both endured 80% of the enemy and endures ..
      1. Khibiny Plastun
        Khibiny Plastun 17 November 2022 22: 57
        0
        I do not argue. But you need to work for the future.
        1. Barberry25
          Barberry25 17 November 2022 23: 13
          0
          there are specialized research institutes for this, but rushing to change weapons and rebuild 7 cartridge factories is at least stupid
  25. Ady66
    Ady66 17 November 2022 09: 35
    0
    About calibers:
    1. Is the weight of the carried ammunition critical in defense? I think no. This is where the impact comes into play.
    2. In the combat exit, an increased wearable ammunition is certainly needed, respectively, a smaller caliber. In the first and second world assault groups were created, armed with submachine guns. The Germans were the first to use assault groups with PP-18 in the First World War.
    1. Barberry25
      Barberry25 17 November 2022 17: 14
      0
      given that in WWI it was generally bad with automatic weapons ... it’s not surprising. And about the BC, the simplest example is that the Americans on new rifles use magazines of 20 rounds .. which means that when wearing 8 magazines, there is a direct loss of 80 rounds or almost 2 magazines to a conventional machine gun, not to mention the difficulty with the accuracy of automatic fire. If we are to raise the question of new types of destruction of the enemy, then we need: more optics for soldiers and more "pocket artillery" in the form of multiply charged grenade launchers and preferably with the possibility of a ballistic computer. What's the difference what the enemy has a machine gun and cartridges if 20 40 mm caliber grenades can be placed on it from 700 meters in 1 minute
      1. John22
        John22 17 November 2022 20: 16
        +1
        This is right. 40 mm AGS passed the test, but where is it in the troops? The power of a 40 mm grenade is twice that of a 30 mm grenade.
      2. AlAvis
        AlAvis 18 November 2022 04: 27
        0
        M-5 (and standard sight) was created on the principle of "one shot - one kill". How many Kalash shots will be needed, taking into account the worst ballistics, accuracy and target action? Here is a real, "active" ammunition and compare. About the complexity of automatic fire: the main one is single, for high-precision destruction, and not "holes in the sky". Automatic - auxiliary, for point-blank combat. However, the automatic, according to those who have tested it, is quite controllable and better than all competitors in .308 caliber. "More optics" will only work on weapons capable of realizing its potential. "40 mm caliber grenades" - and 203 mm shells are even better, will we count them?
        1. Barberry25
          Barberry25 18 November 2022 11: 23
          -1
          1) the principle is good, only really somewhat different ... otherwise the Americans would have killed all the enemies anyway, since they have all the weapons with the Asog optical sight ..
          2) "reviews of testers" .. quite manageable how is it? Let me just remind you that ALL weapons that have ever been put into service received good reviews from testers, but real participation in the database very often showed weapon problems
          3) i.e. instead of hitting the enemy with fragments of standard ammunition, do you need to invent a new wunderwafer? if your hands fall off the grenade launcher, then you will also need a new machine gun for a new caliber with attention! reduced ammo will not be very good ... Artillery has been driving for 80 years and this must be taken into account - issue rangefinders, multiply charged grenade launchers of the RG-6 type to squads and platoons and develop a light and compact AGS and you will get a proven result and, most importantly, faster and cheaper, and war is the mathematics of large numbers ..
    2. solar
      solar 17 November 2022 20: 16
      0
      In the first and second world assault groups were created, armed with submachine guns.

      There were no other hand-held automatic weapons
  26. Terran ghost
    Terran ghost 17 November 2022 09: 45
    0
    games with calibers pursued one goal: to ensure the most dense fire both on the defensive and on the offensive. That is, the soldier should have been able to pour bullets on the enemy for as long as possible.

    First of all, the reduction in caliber was intended to increase the effectiveness of the fire. After all, in order to hit the enemy with a shot with this same shot, you need to hit him.
    A bullet with even the most excellent penetrating effect, but flying past the target, does not cause damage to the enemy.
  27. Diverxnumx
    Diverxnumx 17 November 2022 09: 49
    +5
    In general, the article is amateurish.
  28. Ingenegr
    Ingenegr 17 November 2022 10: 09
    +8
    "The trouble is, if the shoemaker starts the pies, and the pieman makes the boots." It seems that in Rus' it is ineradicable.
    A novel, in order to write NORMALLY on the topic of small arms and ammunition for it, you need to UNDERSTAND these issues. That is, at least, KNOW, namely KNOW and confidently OWN terminology, UNDERSTAND the difference between a short stroke of a gas piston and a short stroke of a barrel. KNOW what the specific kinetic energy of a bullet is and why exactly this parameter is decisive when comparing the penetrating effect of bullets of the same design. And there is still a lot to KNOW and UNDERSTAND.
    You have good material on a number of topics. You should not spoil your opinion by issuing articles on questions that are unusual for you, apparently.
    1. Svateev
      Svateev 17 November 2022 18: 47
      0
      Quote: Ingenegr
      KNOW what is the specific kinetic energy of a bullet

      Balm for the soul!
      But why is the "engineering negro" screen saver not relevant - target number 4? Actual head target No. 5 - http://svateev-va.rf/yps.html
    2. Dimax-nemo
      Dimax-nemo 20 November 2022 09: 50
      0
      What is kinetic energy and by what formula it is calculated - they pass at school. But in general, there are "military-economic studies", R&D there are all sorts of research projects. In the USSR, in the end, entire institutions were engaged in this. There is a problem. What is justified by statistics does not always suit specific individuals who, in this very statistics, run the risk of falling "in the wrong column." It's like getting vaccinated or not getting vaccinated.
  29. Kolin
    Kolin 17 November 2022 10: 16
    +8
    Not an article, but a collection of tales.
    Modern 5,45s have higher armor penetration than 7,62x39s, while modern armor plates hold rifle bullets without any problems.
    1. Svateev
      Svateev 17 November 2022 18: 42
      0
      Quote: Kolin
      Modern 5,45 has higher armor penetration than 7,62x39

      Slightly lower, as the lateral load of the bullet is greater (the bullet is longer). But in general, you are right: even a 7,62-mm rifle does not penetrate NIB.
  30. Glory1974
    Glory1974 17 November 2022 10: 22
    -1
    In the late 80s, the 6,0 cartridge was tested in the USSR. Well-known events put an end to this, but the logic of development is clear.
    We need a cartridge that combines the advantages of 5,45 and 7,62 mm, and without their inherent disadvantages.
    In modern conditions, it is impossible to say that some caliber will radically increase the effectiveness of a weapon. Everything works in a complex, and sights, and optics, and ergonomics, and gunpowder, and the enemy’s ability to provide everyone with high-quality armor. Already now, US helicopter pilots have bibs holding a bullet from an SVD from 10 meters, but no one will carry one in the infantry.
    The Americans are rearming because their weapons objectively turned out to be worse than those of potential opponents, it became impossible to wait further. Therefore, they buy German guns for the Marines and are working on a new complex.
    1. Foul skeptic
      Foul skeptic 17 November 2022 11: 48
      +2
      The Americans are rearming because their weapons objectively turned out to be worse than those of potential opponents, it became impossible to wait any longer.

      Which weapon was worse than which weapon?
      1. Glory1974
        Glory1974 18 November 2022 11: 45
        -1
        American small arms worse than Soviet
        1. Foul skeptic
          Foul skeptic 18 November 2022 11: 49
          +1
          American small arms worse than Soviet

          I ask you to name specific American small arms that are worse than specific Soviet small arms.
          1. Glory1974
            Glory1974 21 November 2022 10: 13
            0
            specific American small arms that are worse than specific Soviet small arms.

            M-16 is worse than AK-74
            1. Foul skeptic
              Foul skeptic 21 November 2022 10: 40
              +1
              You forgot to specify the comparison criteria, as well as the definition of "worse-better".
              At the same time, do not forget to take into account that it is not necessary to compare AK-74 and M-16, but variants comparable in time of appearance, that is, at least AK-74 and M16A1.
              1. Glory1974
                Glory1974 22 November 2022 10: 20
                0
                I haven't forgotten anything. In order for everything you want to list, you need to print a monograph.
    2. Svateev
      Svateev 17 November 2022 18: 54
      0
      Quote: glory1974
      We need a cartridge that combines the advantages of 5,45 and 7,62 mm, and without their inherent disadvantages.

      You're right. But to achieve this is difficult, in caliber bullets everything has already been brought to the limit of perfection. We need qualitative changes. And this article by Skomorokhov again slips an ineffective caliber bullet.
      It is easier for the Kalashnikov Concern to receive loot for the developments of Mikhail Timofeevich than to develop a fundamentally new one.
    3. Barberry25
      Barberry25 18 November 2022 16: 09
      0
      Well, in general, first you need a new cartridge + weapons for snipers and machine gunners, and then after that you should think about machine guns.
    4. Dimax-nemo
      Dimax-nemo 20 November 2022 09: 46
      +1
      In the USSR, they were seriously engaged in arrow-shaped bullets and achieved some success.
  31. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 17 November 2022 10: 33
    0
    The Americans are planning 6,8mm for a machine gun, a light machine gun, a rifle with a heavy barrel. And transfer Unified machine guns from .308 to .338 (reaching .50 caliber on a single machine gun.
  32. Alexfly
    Alexfly 17 November 2022 12: 19
    +3
    Damn, I do not understand what the article is about? What nonsense has been written? Horses, people, and thousands of volleys mixed up in a bunch ... Until the cartridge case changes, becomes longer, less conical, then the power will not change, there are no other gunpowders and there will not be .. Without private participation, this business cannot be developed . Dead end option..
  33. IImonolitII
    IImonolitII 17 November 2022 12: 36
    0
    Today, almost all gunsmiths in the world are trying to work on the topic of a short barrel stroke.

    Oh, after that, the whole article flies into the trash :)
    If anything - to master a new sleeve is not a difficult task in such a small caliber, it would make sense.

    To increase power and ergonomics - AK-203 / Ak-103 with aluminum from anti-aircraft guns under 6.5 grendel is the best option. The sleeve is old, the weapon is adequate, albeit heavy.

    In terms of armor penetration, both 5.56 and 5.45 in armor-piercing design perfectly sew everything up to the rifle class. Who else would supply them to the troops in quantity (
    1. agond
      agond 17 November 2022 13: 03
      +3
      Practice suggests that it is better to hit from a small one, but often, than from a large one, but less often ... otherwise both will not work together.
      So where do these themes come from? .. businessmen from gunsmiths order and lobby ., at the beginning they say everything is bad and then - let's develop something, but radically improve the quality of the 5.45x39 cartridge, the accuracy of bullet manufacturing, lighten the sleeve, raise the properties of gunpowder, they don’t take automated optics , and switch to another caliber please.
      1. Dimax-nemo
        Dimax-nemo 20 November 2022 09: 45
        0
        This is a very large investment in fixed assets. They will not pay off if you do not make billions of cartridges. No one would have given money for this in peacetime. And now it's too late to drink Borjomi.
    2. Svateev
      Svateev 17 November 2022 18: 57
      0
      Quote: IImonolitII
      In terms of armor penetration, both 5.56 and 5.45 in armor-piercing design perfectly sew everything up to the rifle class.

      Even with a tungsten core DO NOT SEW - http://svateev-va.rf/sib.html
    3. Alexfly
      Alexfly 18 November 2022 12: 20
      0
      All the same, the Grendel 6,5 sleeve differs from the AK sleeve, it does not have this crazy taper, a bullet of a smaller caliber, but of different mass and length ....
  34. AlexSam
    AlexSam 17 November 2022 12: 56
    0
    Quote: Alexey 1970
    I like to become Roman, but this one somehow contradicts itself in places

    I don’t like Roman’s articles (it is felt that the person carefully studied the works of Alexei Anatolyevich Navalny and other luminaries of patriotic thought), but this one, at least in some places, draws on analytical
    1. Diverxnumx
      Diverxnumx 17 November 2022 15: 20
      +1
      If a person "floats" in the topic, then what kind of analytics can be expected from him? :)
  35. Nephilim
    Nephilim 17 November 2022 13: 21
    +2
    The author wrote, wrote, but did not write the main thing about the fact that in Russia they were not honored to create something to replace the Soviet "Kalashnikov". All "AK fantasies". All in keeping with tradition. The Russian Empire, after all, in the field of small arms, besides the meager circulation of Fedorov’s assault rifles, did not do anything on its own. The USSR seriously shook this trend, and for more than 30 years, today's Russia has been riding on its legacy, without having been honored with anything in the field of army small arms. And there is nothing on the horizon. "Kalashnikov" claims in Russia for immortality.
    1. Diverxnumx
      Diverxnumx 17 November 2022 13: 45
      0
      And what kind of revolutionary over the past 30 years has been created by adversaries? From machine guns / assault rifles, of course.
      1. Nephilim
        Nephilim 17 November 2022 13: 48
        0
        State your understanding of the term "revolutionary", then I may somehow be able to console your wounded turbo-patriotic pride.
        1. Diverxnumx
          Diverxnumx 18 November 2022 11: 05
          0
          1. "Explain your understanding of the term "revolutionary" - yes, easily)). Revolutionary - leading to qualitative changes and making the previous decision unnecessary / useless (all this in relation to the shooter, ok?). 2. "I, perhaps, somehow I can console" - thanks, I don't need it.)) 3. "Your injured turbo-patriotic pride" - as I understand it, you are accustomed to putting convenient labels on your opponent? Otherwise, why did you get the idea that my pride is wounded and it is "turbo-patriotic"?...: )
    2. Nephilim
      Nephilim 17 November 2022 14: 24
      0
      Oh, even the body squeezed some kind of minus sign. And in fact, there is nothing to object to.
  36. Dimax-nemo
    Dimax-nemo 17 November 2022 13: 38
    +4
    Short stroke of what? trunk? This, excuse me, who is working on this now, and where? If the author meant "short stroke of the gas piston", then yes, in the West, if they do not copy the M16 / 4, then they choose just such a design of the gas outlet mechanism (also AR, only different). Now here's some food for thought. Why, having applied just such a design on the SKS and SVD, did we not switch to it on the AK-74? Can anyone name at least one massive and successful machine gun with such a gas outlet scheme?

    As for 7,62x39, everything was clear from the very beginning. That we have pasta, cigarettes and cartridges must be of the same caliber. There could be no other thoughts in 1943. Although Fedorov, even before the WWI war, it was quite clear that it was necessary to reduce the caliber to at least 6,5 mm. And at first, after the Civil War, we worked on Fedorov's small arms system. But even then it was not up to fat. If we talk specifically about an intermediate cartridge, and not a machine-gun one, then it is generally impossible to obtain comparable ballistics with a machine-gun one without reducing the caliber. And this is a single shot. If you want to somehow get further than the PPSh in short bursts, you should not consider anything other than our 5,45x39. Increasingly more powerful when fired from weapons lighter than 4 kg. without a bipod makes firing bursts a waste of ammo. At least with "normal" automation, in which there is a "normal" shutter. So here either put on panties, or take off the cross. Considering that it was artillery that inflicted the bulk of the defeat in the last war, the battalions are full of automatic grenade launchers, and that now we even have a 7,62x54R belt machine gun and 1-2 grenade launchers in our squad (and this is not counting the BMP-BTR), I I don’t see any point in messing around with changing calibers for shooters. Their number is actually not even number three now. Their main task is to cover the machine gunner while he changes the tape.

    I would agree entirely with the author about the "body kit" of the AK-12. But it is already useless to fight the indestructible desire of a significant part of the personnel to fasten at least a collimator to the machine gun, and even better a "teplak", even at their own expense. Since MO does not offer any special alternatives (at least in the form of the same dovetail strips), only what can be bought in stores remains. Those. what is attached to the Picatinny rail. Yes, the manufacturers of various junk came up with this thing without consulting Izhevsk first. Yes, the manufacture of such a receiver cover, on which it would make sense to put a sight, will ultimately cost significantly more. But, alas, we have to be here already "like everyone else." The side mount is also not really a gift when ejecting from a tank (although the AKS-74U would have been enough in the tank, which you still don’t need while you are in the tank). The newfangled handguard is rumored to improve barrel cooling. The MO has already refused to cut off for two shots. In short, the attempt to adapt the AK to the requirements of the American arms market can be considered a failure. Especially when mobilized.
    1. Terran ghost
      Terran ghost 17 November 2022 14: 49
      +1
      Quote: Dimax-Nemo
      If the author meant "short stroke of the gas piston", then yes, in the West, if they do not copy M16 / 4, then they choose just such a design of the gas outlet mechanism (also AR, only different)

      Yes, not only in the "West", but in many other places too. The principle is simple - "why reinvent the wheel?". Hence the variations on the AR18 theme (there is at least some kind of variety), and numerous "clones" AR15 / M16 / "Heckler-Koch 416" (from a variety of banal and boring "clones" HK416 to a very original Iranian rifle Khaybar KH- 2002).
      Soon, apparently, we should expect the appearance of "clones" of the Chinese QBZ-191 and the Swiss-American MCX, originally developed by SiG-Sauer (its MCX Spear version was recently adopted by the US Armed Forces).
      Quote: Dimax-Nemo
      it is already useless to fight the indestructible desire of a significant part of the personnel to fasten at least a collimator to the machine gun, and even better a "teplak", even at their own expense

      Why fight it? o.O. Optics and collimators seriously increase the accuracy of shooting by a trained infantryman from his standard weapon. I am already silent about night vision devices and thermal imagers - Voor widely equipped with similar equipment. US forces, for example, are very fond of conducting offensive operations just at night.
      1. Dimax-nemo
        Dimax-nemo 20 November 2022 09: 29
        0
        They just aren’t going to reinvent anything, it’s another matter that in the same IDF M4 they never gave out to the first line. Drivers were given, for example. And not everyone was delighted with the M4, although they cleaned and lubricated it regularly. Now the armies are small, you can’t count on large orders from your own state. Therefore, you have to think more about the US arms market. You will laugh - AK-12 is largely from here. The author of the article quite rightly writes that the "newfangled" weapon is too "bully", and there are too many places where dirt and snow can accumulate. You definitely won’t get any sight from your native MO. And not everyone has the money to buy it. Now arms manufacturers are not thinking about how to fight with it, but how to sell it in America.

        "Self-supply" of fighters is a fundamental evil. The relevant scientific institutions should decide who needs what and how much, and the state should take care of that. what was that.
        I repeat. Having Pecheneg or PKM and BMP in each compartment, you don’t have to worry too much about the caliber of machine guns and what sights they have on them (there are exceptions). We are quite capable of providing companies with automatic grenade launchers and even tanks. But about how best to use the available firepower, in the first place - artillery, you need to think seriously.

        Yes, the "thermal imager" weighs not so little, with it the "former" weapon is already close to 4 kg. Hence the desire to further reduce the weight of everything else, the actual weapon. It turns out badly.
        1. Obliterator
          Obliterator 20 November 2022 12: 22
          0
          Quote: Dimax-Nemo
          "Self-supply" of fighters is a fundamental evil. The relevant scientific institutions should decide who needs what and how much, and the state should take care of that. what was that.

          With the current level of management and supply activities of the state, self-supply is the only way to go to war more or less equipped.
        2. Terran ghost
          Terran ghost 21 November 2022 10: 06
          0
          Quote: Dimax-Nemo
          that in the same IDF M4 they never gave out to the first line. Drivers were given, for example.

          Actually, exactly the opposite. The M4 and its derivatives completely replaced the Galil in service with the IDF (Israel Defense Forces).
          Therefore, you have to think more about the US arms market. You will laugh - AK-12 is largely from here.

          And here is the "US arms market", if the AK12 was created as part of the "Warrior" program to create a new set of weapons and equipment for motorized rifle troops of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation.
          about the caliber of machine guns and what kind of sights they have, you don’t have to worry too much

          In general - in modern conditions it is impossible.
          PS: And by the way, yes, optics are also very much put on light and single machine guns now. And shooting from such aimingly short bursts or even single bursts (where the design allows) becomes a completely regular way to use such weapons.
          Quote: Dimax-Nemo
          Yes, the "thermal imager" weighs not so little, with it the "former" weapon is already close to 4 kg.

          You are asking the wrong question. With a thermal imager, a soldier can operate effectively at night; without it, he cannot. Everything is simple.
          1. Dimax-nemo
            Dimax-nemo 24 November 2022 13: 24
            0
            And Galil was no longer in the first line by that time. In the first line they planned Tavor. M4 comes almost for nothing. At Galil, the receiver needs to be milled.
            Moreover, the Americans were invited for consultations on the modernization of the AK. We do not buy weapons for the army if they are not in demand on the world market. Remember what Borisov said when he took office as Deputy Prime Minister about Armata and Su-57.
            Did I say something about optics on machine guns? I said that we now have machine guns in our squads, which used to be issued to platoons at best.
            The effectiveness of the action at night does not negate the fact that the total weight of the weapon, tending to 4 kg, is already unacceptable. Hence the stubborn attempts to lighten the weight of German assault rifles and AK-12s.
            1. Terran ghost
              Terran ghost 24 November 2022 15: 44
              0
              Quote: Dimax-Nemo
              And Galil was no longer in the first line by that time.

              Because it was just the M4 that replaced it.
              Moreover, the Americans were invited for consultations on the modernization of the AK.

              Given that in the United States, military versions of the AK were not produced from the word "completely" - it is not clear what exactly was expected to be obtained as a result of consultations.
              PS: And oh yes, even among the civilian AK-based carbines produced in the USA, only in some cases we are talking about full-fledged production "from a metal billet". And not about assembling from "parts kits" usually originally produced in Romania, Yugoslavia / Serbia or Bulgaria.
              Quote: Dimax-Nemo
              The effectiveness of the action at night does not negate the fact that the total weight of the weapon, tending to 4 kg, is already unacceptable.

              Well, apparently "unacceptable" according to this logic were the "three-ruler", PPSh, "Garand" and even AK of the 1949 model;)
              But in general, everything is very simple. If the troops allied to you do not have night vision devices and thermal imagers on their weapons, but the enemy troops do, then it all ends with the fact that the enemy sooner or later will impose a battle at night. And there, the theoretical calculation about the "unacceptability of a total weight of 4+ kilograms" will no longer cost anything ...
    2. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 17 November 2022 15: 56
      +2
      Quote: Dimax-Nemo
      Why, having applied just such a design on the SKS and SVD, did we not switch to it on the AK-74? Can anyone name at least one massive and successful machine gun with such a gas outlet scheme?
      Not massive, but there are:

      AM-17M assault rifles (5.45mm with a 41 cm barrel)


      Small-sized machine gun AM-17 (5.45x39 mm, 7,62x39mm) and AMB-17 (9x39mm)

      SHF (Chukavin sniper rifle)
      1. Dimax-nemo
        Dimax-nemo 20 November 2022 09: 14
        0
        I asked - a massive and successful machine gun, hinting that for automatic fire a scheme with a short stroke of the gas piston .... well, how should I say it .... in short, no need to be smart where you need to shoot bursts. The complication of the design does not pay for a more accurate single shot for an ordinary shooter, who will still shoot in bursts anyway.
    3. Barberry25
      Barberry25 17 November 2022 17: 08
      +6
      and you stay in a trench in the NWO zone, and then tell me that you don’t need a collimator, a heat shield or a bank .. Especially when you blindly squint at night towards the enemy, who from 400 meters will look at you through a thermal imager ... The problem of the old generation is that they have no knowledge of the current situation, and one of the biggest requests from LBS is to give us a drone and a heat gun..
      1. Dimax-nemo
        Dimax-nemo 20 November 2022 09: 21
        0
        The problem is that we ourselves cannot produce matrices for thermal imagers, and we are unlikely to learn in the near future (since we have not learned in 25 years). And the supply channels will be closed in half a year or a year. Of course, I understand that aiming at an optical sight is much easier and more enjoyable. But breaking it is much easier, and the aiming line rises. So the question of switching to "ordinary" assault rifles exclusively to optics has not yet been unambiguously resolved anywhere.
        Inconsistency in the supply and equipment of the army is a fundamental evil.
        1. Incvizitor
          Incvizitor 20 November 2022 12: 29
          0
          In the Republic of Belarus, pulsar heats are very much nothing if we ourselves cannot in this regard, you can buy from them.
        2. Barberry25
          Barberry25 20 November 2022 18: 01
          0
          supply channels of what exactly? matrices? but nothing that they are made in Russia and China, as it were, refused to supply them? just tales about "here they will block the supply of matrices" I have been hearing for 8 years
          1. Dimax-nemo
            Dimax-nemo 24 November 2022 13: 28
            0
            Chinese friends are very smart, and do not want to fall under secondary sanctions. I'm not talking about the leadership of the CCP, but about Chinese private business. Belarus is under almost the same sanctions as we are, if necessary, they will add it. And where do we mass-produce matrices for thermal imagers? The production of chips is generally a problem for us, it's not exactly non-existent, but it does not cover domestic needs.
        3. Terran ghost
          Terran ghost 21 November 2022 10: 24
          0
          Quote: Dimax-Nemo
          Of course, I understand that aiming at an optical sight is much easier and more enjoyable. But breaking it is much easier, and the aiming line rises.

          The question here is not what is "more pleasant" and what is not. The question is that the presence of optics on machine guns and light machine guns (together with the training of infantrymen to use such weapons) is a stupid opportunity to conduct effective fire from weapons in combat conditions from noticeably long distances.
          1. Dimax-nemo
            Dimax-nemo 24 November 2022 13: 30
            0
            From noticeably large - in your opinion, from what?
            1. Terran ghost
              Terran ghost 24 November 2022 14: 13
              0
              Quote: Dimax-Nemo
              From noticeably large - in your opinion, from what?

              Depends on target size. For a target of the size "growth (running) target" the effect is less pronounced than for targets of the size "head target", where the difference can be, as far as I remember, not even a percentage, but several times.
  37. Pavel57
    Pavel57 17 November 2022 14: 21
    0
    Quote: Saboteur_Navy

    My grandfather was a reconnaissance officer in the Patriotic War, they all had German MPs there, I saw it in the photo myself, and German daggers

    The Germans and SCS respected, and PPSh.
  38. Dost
    Dost 17 November 2022 14: 32
    0
    It is strange to read the author's conclusions about the penetration of 7.62 and 5.45 calibers, seeing how the wars on the video are trying to break through the armor plates with both calibers. When shooting with a caliber of 7.62, the plate was not pierced, but 5.45, but with a special core, was pierced. And what's the point of fencing a garden when you can make more special cartridges?
    1. Svateev
      Svateev 17 November 2022 19: 05
      -1
      Quote: Dost
      5.45 but with a special core-struck.

      5,45 mm with the most penetrating tungsten core (bullet 7N24) pierced ceramic armor only up to 50m. It was in the 80s of the twentieth century - http://svateev-va.rf/sib.html
      No machine gun pierces new armor with any bullet.
      That is why the Americans are transferring their rifle to a new, faster NGSW cartridge.
      1. Dost
        Dost 17 November 2022 20: 55
        0
        I mean that the penetration of 5.45 was higher than 7.62
      2. -Dmitry-
        -Dmitry- 22 November 2022 10: 25
        0
        "5,45 mm with the most penetrating tungsten core (bullet 7N24) pierced ceramic armor only up to 50m. This was in the 80s of the twentieth century - http://svateev-va.rf/sib.html
        No machine gun can pierce new armor with any bullet."


        Dear, you have now froze such nonsense. Firstly, the most armor-piercing bullet at 5.45 is 7N39. Secondly, what armor class of protection? Do you even know that sibz have protection classes? And if the protection class is Br5 or 6, then it is natural that any 5.45 bullets do not take them, because Br5 is designed for shelling with armor-piercing bullets 7.62x54 B-32. Here they can take Br4 7N24 and 7n39.
  39. T-55
    T-55 17 November 2022 15: 22
    0
    Maybe the Belarusian VSK-100 is IT. Made by shortening the RPKM barrel.
  40. ifdru74
    ifdru74 17 November 2022 16: 13
    +4
    Once again, let me remind you about the law of conservation of momentum. This vile law of ungodly physics prevents light elves and dark orcs from making blasters with infinite point-blank range. And then comes the law of conservation of energy, which requires that the bullet has a mass that will bring enough energy to kill and injure the adversary at a confident defeat range. Well, heretical pseudoscience - materials science, which speaks of the accelerated wear of barrels and other parts of the thunder stick, comes as a snack.
    The soldiers were tired of carrying weapons of normal caliber - they were given melkans (5.45 / 5.56). The soldiers were glad that there were more cartridges, and they began to weigh less. But not for long, because they were dressed in armor weighing 20+ kilograms, which were not penetrated by melkans. And then the Mujahideen, who did not wear armor, took the fashion to shoot from outside the zone of destruction of small-caliber weapons.
    Does this mean that a thunderstick is needed, which makes the armor impact sick and severely injured? That's not necessary! You can teach soldiers to shoot more accurately so that they fall into the vulnerabilities of the adversary. You can give them an old proven weapon with an intermediate cartridge, which is now being rapidly developed in the West. But this will not bring profit and fashionable youth hype. And the soldiers will have to be trained for at least two years, because otherwise you won’t be able to teach them to get where they need to go. Because a large caliber is less flatness (physics, damn it!) And still training soldiers to shoot for the result.
    And do not talk about civilian weapons with pre-conscription training - this is not even anti-science fiction, but pure fantasy! When ... gays from the Duma create bans for law-abiding citizens, because lawbreakers have taken the fashion for shooting. There are no shooting ranges, DOSAAF sees assistance to the army and navy in the paid training of drivers and sambists.
    1. agond
      agond 17 November 2022 16: 50
      0
      In the seventies, the accumulated knowledge made it possible to make a qualitative leap to switch to 5.45x39, a cartridge ideal for firing in short bursts, if, in such shooting, it is no longer suitable, it is necessary to change not the cartridge, but the automation of the weapon, If you need something more powerful for single shooting, then you need a new cartridge, and you should not get hung up on small steps like today, 6.8mm tomorrow 7.62 or 8.6mm, you should immediately stop, for example, at 10mm with a long sleeve along the diameter of the bullet, so you can use cartridges of different lengths with different energy depending on tasks. And to create a single cartridge for small arms for all cases is unrealistic, as elsewhere. should be a specialization
      1. ifdru74
        ifdru74 22 November 2022 18: 40
        0
        In the seventies, the accumulated knowledge made it possible to make a qualitative leap to switch to 5.45x39, a cartridge ideal for firing in short bursts

        The massive introduction of SIBZ slightly spoiled the blissful picture of the 70s, when a soldier mowed down the advancing enemy in short bursts. Because now it’s not enough to get there, you have to get where you need to go. Therefore, we are returning back to the 50s-60s, when all soldiers must be taught to hit "where they need to." And the rear, too, because the fighters of the DRG will wear SIBZ. But this does not mean that the Melkan will be forgotten. It works great in cities, against those who do not wear SIBZ :-)
        if, that in such shooting is no longer satisfied, it is necessary to change not the cartridge, but the automation of the weapon

        You can’t change the laws of physics, either reliability (when the energy of moving parts is always enough for the automation to work), or high-precision shooting (a thick and heavy barrel that hangs inside the forearm and weightless automation parts that go into rejection of the slightest grain of sand).
        at the same time, you should not get hung up on small steps like today, 6.8mm tomorrow 7.62 or 8.6mm, you should immediately stop, for example, at 10mm with a long sleeve along the diameter of the bullet, so you can use cartridges of different lengths with different energy depending on the tasks

        Everything has been researched for a long time. There are monographs based on experimental data that have shown the dependence of lethality / recoil on the caliber. Almost all optimal calibers have already been introduced. Occasionally there are originals like Cheytac who find something that the researchers of the 70s did not have enough imagination for and drag it to ... the masses.
        And to create a single cartridge for small arms for all cases is unrealistic, as elsewhere. should be a specialization

        a single caliber is good, but there will always be soldiers who will stand up and cripple themselves and those around them. That is why it is impossible to make cartridges of different energies in the same dimensions. Soldiers are the main danger of any system built on logic and knowledge.
    2. Svateev
      Svateev 17 November 2022 19: 10
      0
      Quote: ifdru74
      the law of conservation of energy, which requires that the bullet have a mass that will bring enough energy to kill and injure the adversary

      If you do not break through the armor, then the lethal action is ZERO.
      Breakthrough action is an unconditional priority. Lethal action - what will happen - http://svateev-va.rf/sib-teorija.html
      1. ifdru74
        ifdru74 22 November 2022 18: 21
        0
        If you do not break through the armor, then the lethal action is ZERO.

        if you shoot from a Saiga12 at a person wearing armor, then there will be no penetration, but the person will die anyway. Because 3000-5000 joules at a short distance will press the armor plate into the carcass so much that the ribs will pierce the heart. But in the coffin it will lie as if alive :-)
        1. -Dmitry-
          -Dmitry- 23 November 2022 06: 15
          0
          if you shoot from a Saiga12 at a person wearing armor, then there will be no penetration, but the person will die anyway. Because 3000-5000 joules at a short distance will press the armor plate into the carcass so much that the ribs will pierce the heart. But in the coffin it will lie as if alive :-)


          Another stereotype. If the armor withstands a hit, then the armor injury should not be higher than degree 2:

          2 - medium Bruised wounds. Focal
          intramuscular hemorrhages.
          Single hemorrhages in the mesentery of the intestine
          Loss of combat capability
          3-5 min. Limited boss power up to 10 days. Complete
          restoration of combat capability up to 15-20 days

          I advise you to study at your leisure GOST 34286-2017, GOST R 55623-2013 and GOST R 5 0 7 4 4 -9 5
          Maybe then you won't write such h.. inaccurate information.
          1. ifdru74
            ifdru74 23 November 2022 19: 13
            0
            hm. how did they cheat physics? It seems to me that if we have a 7.5 dm2 armor plate, then even non-penetration will hurt the user a lot. Everyone's bone strength is different. If you roughly estimate, then behind the plate there will be 130-180 j / m2 (there will be +/- analogue of SVD at close range). Personally, I will not test this for myself.
            Here .223 / 5,45 with a bullet weight in the region of 4 grams gives two times less, which is also unpleasant, but more vital.
            1. -Dmitry-
              -Dmitry- 24 November 2022 13: 11
              0
              There is such a thing as CAP - google it.
    3. Terran ghost
      Terran ghost 21 November 2022 10: 33
      0
      Quote: ifdru74
      You can give them an old proven weapon with an intermediate cartridge, which is now being rapidly developed in the West

      In what kind of "West" for some reason is "developed rapidly" "an old proven weapon" (and how can it be developed in general then;) )?. The new American 6,8x51mm cartridge (aka .277 Fury) is by no means an analogue of the domestic (Soviet) 7,62x39mm cartridge of the 1943 model. Simply because even in the "training" (and "civilian") version, it produces on a 406-mm barrel (for comparison, the AKM / AKMS barrel length is 415 mm) an initial bullet speed of 838 m / s and a muzzle energy of 3050 + Joules.
      The "army-combat" version of the same cartridge on the same barrel already produces muzzle energy of 3650+ Joules.
      1. ifdru74
        ifdru74 22 November 2022 18: 25
        0
        It’s just that the bourgeoisie didn’t massively introduce an intermediate cartridge, as the Soviet Army did. Therefore, they are now fighting over who will receive the circulation for the cartridge. As soon as the eater is announced, they will begin to find out from whom they will buy the shooter. It is possible that these are parallel processes. That's what I call "introduction" :-)
        1. Terran ghost
          Terran ghost 23 November 2022 10: 21
          0
          Quote: ifdru74
          As soon as the eater is announced, they will begin to find out from whom they will buy the shooter.

          Well, we already found out. The US Department of Defense opted for the MCX Spear rifle manufactured by SiG-Sauer (accepted for trial operation by the US military under the name XM5) and the 6,8x51mm cartridge for it manufactured by the same company.
  41. Sergey84
    Sergey84 17 November 2022 16: 40
    +1
    armor penetration for BS bullets up to 300m is better at 5.45
  42. Ivanov IV
    Ivanov IV 17 November 2022 16: 41
    +1
    I used AKM. And cartridge 7,62 is more convenient and preferable for me. It is not necessary to complicate automation. You have to know how to shoot.
    But the barrel, indeed, needs to be lengthened and made structurally stiffer.
    1. Svateev
      Svateev 17 November 2022 19: 11
      0
      Quote: Ivanov IV
      But the barrel really needs to be lengthened and made structurally stiffer

      And what's the problem? Take the PKK. Only you can’t break through a bulletproof vest from it.
  43. hhurik
    hhurik 17 November 2022 16: 48
    +3
    Quote from Diver0
    5,6x39 from Bloom to you for reference - with a 3,5 g bullet, the speed is about 1000 m / s (although I won’t say at what barrel length). This is 1750 J of muzzle energy. Yes, this is 25% more than the standard 5,45 (about 1400 J), but in 223 rem such muzzle energy is not uncommon.

    He did not give birth to such speed wink He owned Bars in cal. 5,6x39 - well, such a thing, especially the shells cracking along the entire length after the shot were impressive. I remember there was a shell and a semi-shell. There was also a half-shell with the letter "a", in red sleeves - it is written on the pack, some kind of copyright certificate was used in the design. Speed, EMNIP, 800 m.s. with pennies. I once shot at stray dogs (at the request of the workers) - they ran away after being hit, the birds, however, fell. I sold it as unnecessary, I bought a self-loading in .223.
    No one will change anything for the next 20-30 years - for economic reasons.
    1. Diverxnumx
      Diverxnumx 18 November 2022 11: 41
      0
      Most likely, these are problems of specific cartridges. In theory, there is nothing difficult in obtaining 1000 m / s for a 3,5 g bullet on a rifle barrel for a cartridge case of this volume.
  44. Barberry25
    Barberry25 17 November 2022 17: 02
    +1
    the question is ... why write an article about nothing and without specific proposals? The old generation’s love for AKM is understandable, these are the times when the grass was greener, etc. etc.. they just forget. that the transition was just because of the difference in exact distance shooting. And yes, the Americans are switching to a new caliber because of Afghanistan, and not because of Chinese armor, since they have a new idea to fix-shoot from one mountain to another. 400-500 meters, and here the presence of optics on the ak-74/12 just steers, and not the transition to the old cartridge, just like steer the density of fire. , who allegedly left the AKM because he is cool, and not because he was not given a new AK-74 and PKM .. this is a wild argument ...

    I already wrote under another similar article - until the new level of SIBZ is understood, and for a second it pulls on exoskeletons with a higher level of protection, trying to give birth to a new automatic machine + cartridge complex or trying to use the old one - this is just a direct drank of dough - first provide personnel with optics ..
    1. Svateev
      Svateev 17 November 2022 19: 16
      0
      Quote: Barberry25
      I already wrote under another similar article - until the new level of SIBZ is understood, and for a second it pulls on exoskeletons with a higher level of protection, trying to give birth to a new automatic machine + cartridge complex or trying to use the old one - this is just a direct drink of dough -

      The new level of NIS is already quite objectively visible. And you need to change the rifle only for one that will penetrate this new NIB. Otherwise, you are right, just "drank babala". What this article is leading to.
      1. garri-lin
        garri-lin 17 November 2022 21: 27
        0
        Well, the SIBZ that looms in the near future will definitely be tough only for "piece" cartridges. It turns out you need to return to full-fledged rifles and load expensive core cartridges. There is no other way.
        1. Svateev
          Svateev 17 November 2022 23: 19
          -1
          Quote: garri-lin
          There is no other way.

          Why not? Sub-caliber bullet. Armor-piercing shells have already gone this way, for bullets it is also possible. There are, however, problems - http://svateev-va.rf/sib-cniitm.html
          1. garri-lin
            garri-lin 18 November 2022 00: 14
            +1
            I myself recently spoke about the conceptual analogues of 7N31 for the 7,62 × 39 cartridge.
      2. ifdru74
        ifdru74 22 November 2022 18: 45
        0
        Each soldier has an inch (25.4mm) bolter, and instead of machine guns, autocannons from 37mm :-)
        And then the power armor will not stand!
  45. Boris-5
    Boris-5 17 November 2022 17: 05
    0
    There must be separation in everything. Someone is fighting in a trench, someone is sitting in a building. The machine should carry ammunition far away, after all, the 21st century. And you put it all together. We do not have universal soldiers. 7,62 is the optimum. And these parasites are obliged to create a normal assault rifle, based on AKM, have the Kulibins really disappeared. The main thing is to keep effective managers away.
  46. cpls22
    cpls22 17 November 2022 17: 08
    0
    The time will come, and for the new American caliber 6.8 - they will pick up more effective protection. They will have to think about its next increase. Returning to caliber 7.62 now, we will step over this step.
    1. Svateev
      Svateev 17 November 2022 19: 19
      0
      Quote from cpls22
      Returning to caliber 7.62 now, we will step over this step.

      Caliber is not a panacea. You need bullet speed. And an increase in speed increases the recoil momentum. And in order to maintain accuracy, it is necessary to reduce the mass of the bullet, that is, DECREASE the caliber.
      1. cpls22
        cpls22 18 November 2022 19: 53
        0
        With equal speed, more mass gives more damage - isn't it? The greater mass also provides greater range. The problem of stabilizing weapons when fired should be solved through design decisions, and not by reducing lethality / effective range.
        1. Svateev
          Svateev 19 November 2022 09: 35
          0
          Quote from cpls22
          The problem of stabilizing weapons when fired should be solved through design solutions

          No design solution can reduce the recoil momentum. Newton's Law, damn it! And the recoil impulse "sausages" the human body and the weapon that this person is holding. Even the anti-mass in the AEK submachine gun dampens the impulses of only the moving parts of the mechanism, but not the recoil impulse that the bullet left the weapon.
    2. AlAvis
      AlAvis 18 November 2022 04: 36
      +1
      An assault rifle is not a tank gun and a larger caliber is no better. The 6.8mm was chosen for its optimal ballistic coefficient. The Pentagon conducted research, created a bullet (at a given speed) and gave freedom to developers - how to release this bullet.
      1. cpls22
        cpls22 18 November 2022 20: 00
        0
        The Pentagon is now devouring money in every possible way before it goes bad. The new caliber for this is a good way to spend them on a grand scale.
        As far as I understand, the optimal ballistic coefficient is a relative value, and depends on the specification.
        Range, accuracy and lethality at this range dictate the conditions. The Pentagon wants to lengthen its arms, and this must be countered. With a small caliber, we will not increase our arm span in any way. And to start a new caliber is not the time.
        1. Svateev
          Svateev 19 November 2022 09: 43
          0
          Quote from cpls22
          With a small caliber, we will not increase our arm span in any way.

          Let's increase it and how! Increased bullet speed gives more than just penetration. This and a more flat trajectory = a long range of a direct shot. This and less bullet flight time = less all shooting corrections: for target movement, for wind, ... for everything!
          For example, a light feathered bullet ("arrow") TsNIITOCHMASH, even with worse accuracy of fire, showed a better hit rate at a target at a distance of 800m than a 7,62-mm bullet. Only due to more speed.
  47. Eug
    Eug 17 November 2022 17: 28
    +3
    Shooting is almost always carried out not at the target, but at the target area - try to find conditions in battle when you can aim accurately. Yes, and the front sight of an AK (any), taking into account the perspective at a distance of 200 meters, will close a standard trench opening .. which surprised - they write everywhere that 5.45 7N6 with a standard bullet is worse than 7.62, but with a heavy one (7N10, 7N24) it seems to be better .. what regarding the barrel length under 7.62 - it is not clear why the SCS is not mentioned, with its soft recoil and good accuracy, as for me, it is the length of its barrel that is optimal for 7 62. Due to the short barrel stroke, this scheme is more sensitive to pollution than the gas outlet. Something like this...
    1. AlAvis
      AlAvis 18 November 2022 04: 40
      +1
      "Shooting is almost always carried out not at the target, but at the target area" - let's return to the linear formation and volleys of fuses. Progress is being made towards accurately hitting the enemy from a safe distance.
    2. -Dmitry-
      -Dmitry- 18 November 2022 19: 05
      +1
      7n10, 7n24 are armor-piercing paths, not heavy ones. Or rather, 7n10 Increased Penetration, that is, PP, but 7n24 is a full-fledged armor-piercing - BS.
  48. nickname7
    nickname7 17 November 2022 17: 59
    +2
    The author is wrong about the uselessness of the picatinny rail, since a thermal imager can be installed on it even at night, those units that do not have a rail turn into easy prey.
    This problem was revealed by the SVO due to the fact that there are no slats on the AK-47, then thermal imagers purchased by volunteers cannot be installed, meanwhile, the Armed Forces of Ukraine have no problems with thermal imagers.
  49. Couchexpert
    Couchexpert 17 November 2022 18: 04
    +2
    The internal dialogue of the author is chaotic and subjective... However, nothing new. At the exit:
    Quote: article
    Hence 7,62x39 and a barrel length of 500 mm. And the question begins to take shape.

    Quote: article
    But the main point is that those who will now spend the winter in the trenches in Ukraine, these bright prospects somehow do not care. They need a weapon with which to perform combat missions.

    Issuing the PKK to everyone? But no, he has a 590 mm barrel, it won’t work, you need to develop a new one ... Although, the middle should be between 269 and 590 ... And, suddenly, this 1,5 cm elongated AKM 429,5 mm. Hm...
    Quote: article
    We have… No, no one has canceled our Kalashnikov concern, moreover, we already have some developments. For example, AK-308 chambered for 7,62x51 NATO. Already something, a machine gun for a rifle cartridge, albeit not ours.

    And it is not necessary under ours. Under "ours" everything is already there and the next AK-stopyat hundred will not bring any qualitative change. But what the Americans did, we should also try to repeat. "Their" new 6,8×51 mm SIG or .277 SIG Fury and the old 7,62×51 mm NATO are like "our" 5,45×39 mm and 7,62×39 mm only at a new energy level. And if the same characteristics of the impact on the target are needed, then the charge will have to be used the same. Miracles don't happen. And what digests 7,62x51 could well be adapted for 6,8x51 (perhaps a little weakened and a regular solid brass sleeve). We forget about the queues, we develop ways to deal with recoil. Yes, and the Americans themselves, I think, over time, the power of the cartridges will be slightly reduced, otherwise, well, the thing turns out very "not for everyone".
    But is it really an important task now?
  50. Elephant
    Elephant 17 November 2022 18: 26
    +3
    Yes, we have a really big problem with the quality of gunpowder. Production needs urgent modernization