News from across the ocean: drone attack

One of the authors of The WarZone, already known to us Tyler Rogoway, reports on September 12, 2022 that during the exercises at the National Training Center (Fort Irvine, California), a swarm of attackers was used by a simulated enemy drones in the amount of 40 cars.

The role of the attacking side was played by the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment stationed at Fort Irvine. In the US armed forces, this regiment is known for playing the role of "aggressor" during exercises, for which it uses heavily modified armored vehicles and vehicles.

It was he who, at dawn, launched an attack swarm on the position of the 1st Armored Division, which was the defending side.

drone attack

Each UAV carried any weapon, of course, idle, and had the MILES system, which, using laser technology, allows you to simulate the defeat of fighters and equipment. The swarm was managed by COLSA, which says the swarm is the first to receive formal approval from the US Army and has been used in other exercises.

MILES - realistic training system

Unfortunately, apart from the fact that a massive drone attack was used, the course of the exercises is not described in any way. It is not known what tasks were set for the pack, and whether it achieved success. It is also not reported what countermeasures the defending side used, and whether it managed to achieve anything.

Only a statement by the commander of the National Training Center, Brigadier General Curtis Taylor is cited:

"A swarm of 11 quadcopters equipped with cameras and MILES systems was launched at dawn this morning as part of a training exercise prior to the 11th ACR's assault on 1AD's defensive positions. In future wars, drones will be as important as artillery Today".

Here is such a story.

Comments

[Vladimir_2U]

I have no doubt that in this regard, the US army is superior to our head. Unfortunately.
As a consolation, I believe that our Army is superior in terms of military air defense to the amers by the same head. But this may not be enough.

[Zenn]

I have no doubt that in this regard, the US army is superior to our head. Unfortunately

Unfortunately, you are yet another victim of beautiful American lies.
If the picture shows a dozen flying drones, then this simply indicates that a dozen operators controlled them and their task was to prevent their drones from colliding.
Well, a new reason to ask for a couple of billions for a new program.
And the reality is that several hundred Iranian-made "shahid-mopeds" are capable of pretty much breaking the energy system of the whole country. The cost of one is comparable to the cost of a wrench, which is supplied to the US Army.
How effective are American air defense systems against the attack of "shahid mopeds" ask the Saudis, it was not in vain that they drove the American "Patriots" out of their territory, they are simply useless.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Dzenn

Unfortunately, you are yet another victim of beautiful American lies.

Of course, it is the US Army that is forced to buy kamikaze drones from Iran, and at least slightly modern radios from China.

Quote: Dzenn

And the reality is that several hundred Iranian-made "shahid-mopeds" are capable of pretty much breaking the energy system of the whole country.

Geraniums have nothing to do with real-time impact on the battlefield.
You, unfortunately, are a victim of porridge in your head.

[Civil]

Fans of the steam fleet and the arquebus came running again. Especially for those who are in the Mark V tank in the 21st century:
1. A swarm of drones is a fait accompli. Country 3 of the world Iran produces them in bulk.
2. The most likely hegemons of the US and China produce them in large quantities and they are programmed for attacks without external control.
3. If you lie to yourself again that the UAV is an aircraft modeling circle for children, then this already leads to serious losses.
4. It's time to introduce a criminal article "Negation of scientific progress in military technologies."
And here is a working example from a country that is not the most advanced in UAV technology:

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Civil

Fans of the steam fleet and the arquebus came running again. Especially for those who are in the Mark V tank in the 21st century:

Are you talking to me?! Wrong comment...

[Civil]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Quote: Civil

Fans of the steam fleet and the arquebus came running again. Especially for those who are in the Mark V tank in the 21st century:

Are you talking to me?! Wrong comment...

Not to you. This is how the comment was posted.

[tlauicol]

Fuck! And if you imagine VOG under each of them!?

[Duncan]

Even a pepper spray is enough.

[SincerityX]

Yes, even a firecracker, whatever the corsair 5-7 near the head, will already cause a lot of problems.

[Vitaly gusin]

Quote: Civil

1. A swarm of drones is a fait accompli. 3rd world country Iran produces them in bulk

Where can you read it?

Quote: Civil

And here is a working example from a country that is not the most advanced in UAV technology:

But there are other examples.
A battle-tested Israeli drone swarm could be the beginning of a new kind of war.
The Israel Defense Forces recently made history by deploying a swarm of drones in combat for the first time.
[media=http://www.newscientist.com/article/2282656-israel-used-worlds-first-ai-guided-combat-drone-swarm-in-gaza-attacks/]
[media=https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-apparent-world-first-idf-deployed-drone-swarms-in-gaza-fighting/]

[trenkkvaz]

The US Army purchases various weapons for itself from many Western countries, ranging from small arms to armored personnel carriers.
I don’t hear hooting - it’s a shame America cannot produce pistols!
Other Western countries buy a lot of weapons from the US.
And these are large developed countries.
Also a disgrace?
Or only it can apply to Russia?

[sleeve]

Of course, only to Russia! Only we should be ashamed of the purchase... and the purchase of what? In what form do the "shahids" come to us, whose stuffing is on the "geranium" UAV, have the Iranians themselves "advanced" in technology? Are Chinese radios really that high-quality or are there just a lot of them and they are cheap? However, anyone has the right to express their "fie" on any topic, especially if this is interpreted as a sign of "cold analytics".

[hagen]

Quote: Dzenn

If the picture shows a dozen flying drones, then this simply indicates that a dozen operators controlled them and their task was to prevent their drones from colliding.

Even in Russia they have already shown a swarm of drones ("Drone Show"), controlled by a special program, and not "manually". From 500 to 2000+ drones took part in these shows. "... During the show, each unmanned vehicle acts as an independent intellectual unit, communicating with other members of the group...". Yes, this is only a show for now, but they already show that a technologically controlled swarm of UAVs is quite possible. And if today the results of the exercises with a "drone swarm" can be commented on as "a beautiful American lie", then tomorrow it will be the harsh reality of the battlefield. I think that soon no ground operation will be possible without the support of a fair number of "Derivation of Air Defense" type machines equipped with programmable unmanned aerial vehicles and electronic warfare machines. And we need to prepare for this yesterday.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Hagen

And if today it is possible to comment on the results of exercises with a "swarm of drones" as "beautiful American lies", then tomorrow it will be the harsh reality of the battlefield.

I think that so far the problem of such a swarm is in the automated target detection and UAV guidance, but I think that it is already being solved.

[Barberry25]

as an option, you can make commander drones, which, instead of weapons, will carry advanced surveillance devices and issue control centers

[SincerityX]

Peresvet. A lot of. Urgently.


The text of your comment is too short and in the opinion of the site administration does not carry useful information.

[fiberboard]

And why ,, Derivation-Air Defense ,,? But ,, Shilki, Tunguska, Pantsir ,, will not work?

[hagen]

Quote: fiberboard

And why ,, Derivation-Air Defense ,,? But ,, Shilki, Tunguska, Pantsir ,, will not work?

A 57 mm projectile gives a larger cloud of fragments than a 30 mm one. Therefore, "Air Defense Derivation" seems to me preferable.

[fiberboard]

76,85,100mm will give even more fragments. What is that Derivation's ammunition? And I don't want to poke. It is necessary to put 2-23 on the Urals, Zila-131, twin and quad anti-aircraft KPVT, Utyos. In the fight against such targets, an avalanche of fire is needed. And gunners need to be well prepared.

[hagen]

Quote: fiberboard

And I don't want to poke.

What are you going to beat from Utes? You look at their characteristics in terms of range and heights of targets. It is necessary to keep in mind the balance between the maximum characteristics for hitting targets and the possibilities of placing guns on a self-propelled platform with an optimal ammunition load. I see this balance in the range of 57-76 mm. In these calibers, the most acceptable ranges of destruction, a programmable fuse is well placed, and there are successes in creating flight correction equipment. 30 mm is frankly weak, and after a programmable fuse there is generally little room for explosives. But these guns have been mastered by production, so today they are simply cheaper for the economy.

[fiberboard]

And how are you going to detect and hit a small-sized low-flying target at a long distance? And what rate of fire will Derivation have, taking into account the ammunition load? But what if the 57mm anti-aircraft gun had problems with barrel cooling (15 shots - 5 minutes of cooling, 40 shots - 20 minutes)? What to do with these problems? The air defense of Ukraine drove our planes and helicopters over the front line, but nothing can be done about the Geraniums. So can we not, wisely, return to the old effective weapon? Beat UAVs at close range? For purposes such as Geranium, even a quad installation of Maximov will help. After all, they are shot down from small arms. And for Bayraktar, a rocket is already needed.

[hagen]

Quote: fiberboard

So can we not, wisely, return to the old effective weapon?

Somehow on TV, in my opinion, even in the "military acceptance" the Cannon Shell failed to hit the UAV target and caught up with it with a missile.

[K9_SWAT]

Saw. I looked and thought: they will hit or .... They didn’t hit! Only a rocket with annoyance))).
It is necessary to revive anti-aircraft artillery of caliber 76, 85 or 100 mm. Just against all sorts of drones and Himars.

[hagen]

Quote: K9_SWAT

It is necessary to revive anti-aircraft artillery of 76, 85 or 100 mm caliber. Just against all drones and Himars

I once read somewhere that 100 mm anti-aircraft batteries are used to cover the positional areas of the Strategic Missile Forces. I don't know how true this is, but for a military air defense, a 100 mm anti-aircraft gun is too heavy. But I completely agree with you about the 76-85 mm. They can be mounted on a mobile chassis and used to "scare away" small fry, which is too expensive to spend missiles on. One of the tactics for overcoming air defense systems is to oversaturate the airspace with cheap MLRS NURs or cheap UAVs, which will take on the main SAM armament... That's why Pantsir is armed with cheap "Nails" for them. A programmable projectile with a fairly powerful fragmentation cloud and a decent range in 76-85 mm calibers, I think, will definitely be cheaper than a guided anti-aircraft missile. Something like that.

[kig]

Quote: Dzenn

then it just says that a dozen operators controlled them

I'm afraid you're mistaken. A separate "drone" and a "flock of drones" are completely different things, and "flock" is already just a word, but a term denoting a group of drones operating together according to a given program. To control a flock (they use the designation sworm), a dozen operators are not needed, one is enough to control the flock and indicate the target. And how to achieve this goal, the flock will figure it out on its own, and for this there is already special software based on AI.

[Negro]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

I believe that our Army is superior in terms of military air defense to amers by the same head

In the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, military air defense is generally a sore subject. However, there whatever take a sore subject.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Negro

In the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, military air defense is generally a sore subject. However, there whatever take a sore subject.

What a clear idea, please enlighten me on what the pain of the Russian Armed Forces' air defense is compared to, well, the English, or even the American, for example.

[smart ass]

The feeling that our MO is a century behind

[AndrewMv]

There are developments, the trouble is that there is nothing in the army .... They are already sick with their stupidity, cuts and kickbacks .... Until there is responsibility, nothing will be done, it seems to me. What for them to work for the country, when you can steal and go abroad?

[Kovalenko_Ilya]

We have a real problem with responsibility. This is clearly seen in Ukraine. Ours are throwing secret military equipment worth millions of dollars, giving it directly into the hands of opponents. And nothing - everything goes according to plan.
Now I understand why PMCs have gained such popularity in our country. Because there people have the opportunity to take responsibility for what they do.

[Uncle lee]

Drones will be as important in future wars as artillery is today.”

PDO will be improved!

[Maxim G]

Here the questions are more relevant.
When the Ukrainians establish the production of cheap mass-produced kamikaze drones at home, or this equipment will be supplied for them from NATO countries.
And secondly, how will NATO countries respond to the use of "GERANIES" in deliveries to Ukraine, the development of weapons against drones is underway.

That is, we can expect a raid on the territory of the Russian Federation from the side of Ukraine, and, accordingly, a decrease in the effectiveness of our raids on Ukraine (given that the real effectiveness is unclear).

[donavi49]

1) Work has been going on since the summer, even before the Geraniums. Initially financed by Chmut and other volunteers, now they are still pouring in from the budget. Voiced characteristics of 75 kg per 1000 km. With free access to:
a) Austrian engines.
b) Western electronics.
c) Military GPS.
d) Remote industry. Nominally, the drones will be assembled in a conditional garage in Rivne, but in fact they will be brought in boxes from the Czech Republic / Poland, and boards in general in Britain / Norway will be soldered on automated lines.
The only question is when.

2) NATO countries simply do not have them, they have a conditional F-16 / Eurofighter / Rafal with JASSM / JDAM in this concept. Drones of NATO countries are a mandatory optical control of the target, mainly an electric motor, mainly a small warhead up to 2 kg with a low lethality outside a certain radius. So to speak, the experience of the wars of recent years, where the most urgent problem was to turn off some thread of the warlord of the broads on a crowded street or in a house, so that later they would not make excuses to the media for the murdered civilian.

3) Some jammers were handed over to NATO, but it seems to me that it was against such drones that they shot and forgot they are useless. In general, any investment in jammers is taking a potentially losing position, if not today, then tomorrow. Systems are getting smarter, today it is possible to independently determine targets in the search area, capture them, build a priority attack route and detonation points, automatically, without an operator. Burning electronics is an even more useless task. Let me remind you that right now space drones are flying around Jupiter and they feel great. On the ground, it is very difficult to turn off the electronics remotely + a huge shielding margin. Jupiter radiation belt destruction class rifle will be created no earlier than the 40th millennium .

Countering these and other (even jet-powered Carrara) drones is quite simple - MZA + DB missile systems (preferably radio command). Actually raising the air defense structure of the Second World War. This is an expensive counteraction in terms of people, but cheap in terms of equipment and consumables.

[Maxim G]

I meant that in Poland, the Baltics, and Turkey they can easily set up production of analogues of "Geraniums" for Ukraine.

[cold wind]

Here is the Turkish counterpart of Harop/Harpy. Simplify it to the level of Shahed 136 and replace the Turkish parts is very simple and fast. Kargı is called.

[Maxim G]

The question is when and where to wait.

They have a good range...

[cold wind]

Wait for them in December-January, when the work on the deployment of echeloned air defense will be completed in Ukraine, we will withdraw troops from the right-bank Dnieper bridgehead and there will be frost. Western analysts are doing a great job, they did everything to make the Kremlin make the worst decisions.

[smart ass]

The Kremlin is doing well without them, dancing on a rake

[AndrewMv]

In my opinion, the Kremlin, without outside help, did everything to make the worst decisions.

[Negro]

Quote: Maxim G

The question is when and where to expect it

Why wait for this? Western partners will get involved in this dubious story so what?

[Maxim G]

What is doubtful?
They supply self-propelled guns and MLRS, which are used to shell our territory.

[Negro]

Self-propelled guns and MLRS are conceived for conventional warfare. Mopeds are useless in a conventional war; terror against civilians is their only use. It is the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation that have exhausted their capabilities of a conventional war, but this cannot be said about partners even in their hearts.

[Maxim G]

I don’t argue with this, but how much does a moped and a 300 km MLRS rocket cost?
This is another question I think.

[Negro]

Tactical missiles can aim at military facilities - airfields, military units, and so on. And mopeds will not fly to a military facility where there is at least some kind of air defense, but 100% will accidentally or intentionally fly to a residential building.

[Maxim G]

well, like this Ukrainians and terrorize peaceful residents of the Russian Federation.

[Negro]

Quote: Maxim G

Well, the Ukrainians of the civilians of the Russian Federation and nightmare

)))
Therefore, civilians of the Russian Federation already about 2 months ago began to reduce the front line. And at the same time mobilization was announced.

[Maxim G]

And they were evacuated from the border area.

[Duncan]

Hymers is the same geranium, only less range, faster arrival. They hit infrastructure - bridges, warehouses, fuel bases and air defense. In addition to hotels and city administrations. Geranium on military facilities in the rear and their power supply.

[Negro]

Quote from dunkan

Hymers is the same geranium, only less range, faster arrival.

Of course not. Hymars can be (and is) used against the military, it is a difficult air target to hit. Shahid, on the contrary, is an extremely light target and is used exclusively against targets that are not protected by either MANPADS or even KKP.

[Duncan]

On the contrary, Hymars is radio-observable because it flies high in the clear sky (no reflections of the radar beam from any buildings), metal body, huge speed (large Doppler shift for radar detection). Quite a goal for missiles.
Geranium is less visible even in comparison with cruise missiles, on radar it is indistinguishable from a flock of birds. In Ukrainian videos from the scene, shooting from dozens of barrels and MANPADS does not lead to shooting down.

[Maxim G]

Well, what are the EPRs of the HIMARS and Geranium rockets?
Lead, not to be vocal.

[Negro]

Quote from dunkan

Quite a goal for missiles.

Naturally. Only knocking it down is almost impossible, and knocking down two packets is simply impossible.

Quote from dunkan

Geranium is less noticeable even in comparison with cruise missiles, on the radar it is indistinguishable from a flock of birds. In Ukrainian videos from the field, firing from dozens of barrels and MANPADS does not lead to a downing.

The shooter of the UAV will not take it, the Needle may not catch it either. More modern air defense systems catch.
But for shooting down the Highmars, only the semi-mythical S-350 is good enough. The rest is only by the will of Allah.

[Duncan]

The Hymars missile is not a maneuvering munition, it is only corrected in flight. Therefore, the same Iron Dome would have shot down most of these missiles. Another thing is that there are no Russian cheap missiles with an active homing head. And yet - anti-radar missiles are used. The radar needs to work constantly, and it is vulnerable.

[Negro]

Quote from dunkan

Therefore, the same Iron Dome would have shot down most of these missiles.

1. RF does not have an iron dome.
2. The LCD has its limitations, you need to look at whether it is designed for such speeds or not. By the way, the LCD has never worked against missile packages, it is designed for extremely specific conditions. And by the way, he will most likely catch Shahids without question - the latest versions are suitable for aerodynamic purposes too, and Shahid is a very simple aerodynamic target.

Quote from dunkan

And yet - anti-radar missiles are used. The radar needs to work constantly, and it is vulnerable.

The use of drones for radar reconnaissance in combination with anti-radar missiles is a classic of the genre. But for such cases, the Shahid's range is excessive - the PRR will not fly 2 thousand kilometers.

[Vic Vic]

How is that possible? The Hymers are being shot down, but the Shahids, not so much.

[Negro]

What? Arestovich knocks down martyrs with his tongue no less successfully than Konashenkov's haimars.

[Vic Vic]

Do you want to say that everyone just speaks in their favor, but in reality no one knocks anything down?

[Negro]

Who will tell you now what is "really" there? However, for general reasons, Konashenkov needs to shoot down small projectiles that travel at a speed of more than 2M. Metal, which is important, that is, relatively resistant to small fragments. Arestovich shoots down relatively large and slow plastic rattles, which are caught by any MANPADS, except for the old Soviet ones, and with good preparation - KKP.

[tlauicol]

All the same, IOS in the form of drones will win. They implement the principle of uneven distribution of forces along the front faster than air defense

[Negro]

Quote: donavi49

NATO countries simply do not have them, they have a conditional F-16 / Eurofighter / Rafal with JASSM / JDAM in this concept.

Western doctrines of WTO application are designed to reduce indirect damage. In the case of the second army of the world, we see the use of Katyusha-rockets in the style of famous fighters against the Zionists, but increased to 1000 km range. If the go-ahead for such methods of warfare is given, then a lot of mind is not needed to launch the production of plywood gliders for JDAM.
Another thing is that from the point of view of "escalation" there are a lot of more sane options. Yes, even the same 300 km of rockets will not seem enough to anyone.

[Duncan]

Israel is fired on the principle of whom Allah will send, often it does not even hit the cities. Geranium arrives pointwise, with a high-explosive warhead, at one and a half hundred meters it will only stun.

[Negro]

Quote from dunkan

Geranium arrives pointwise

Not quite.

[parusnik]

Unfortunately, apart from the fact that a massive drone attack was used, the course of the exercises is not described in any way.

Too bad, it would be interesting.

[tlauicol]

After this war ends, and even earlier, combat drones will massively appear in service with the Baltic states, Kazakhstan, Georgia .. There is already growth in Poland, Azerbaijan arranged a demonstrative flogging a few years ago. It's scary to think what will happen over the battlefield when the second Ukrainian war begins.

[Bingo]

It is clear that the direction is promising. It has two significant disadvantages:
* In terms of price-quality ratio, they are still stupidly unprofitable.
* There are already weapons against them, they are used and mass-produced, but there are no combat-ready swarms themselves yet. The shield is ahead of the sword.
But they will develop and apply for sure. and what happens - we'll see.
But for the Russian Federation, the development of this is not a priority. If you have enough strength, you must. Protection against them is a must, the same guns, electronic warfare, small anti-aircraft guns with a programmable projectile detonation ...
And this definitely won’t become a child prodigy - I repeat, the shield is ALREADY ahead of the sword

[tlauicol]

What anti-aircraft guns, did you watch the video in the comments? What kind of electronic warfare - in Ukraine, drones fly like fluff ?! It will only get worse. This is an archival weapon, not a tank and a machine gun

[Bingo]

Quote: Tlauicol

What anti-aircraft guns

57 mm for example. It is the very thing against the group goal.

Quote: Tlauicol

drones fly like fluff in Ukraine ?!

Bayraktars, for example? Or Mavik, about which both sides have already pecked the crown of the head - Mavik's cameraman is a suicide bomber, is he visible?
There will be... There will be shish kebab, but there is already.
But the fact that dill cannot shoot down Gerani just says that in vain they shot shells for the ZU-23 back in the 14th year

[tlauicol]

Just the same, Maviki and other trifles are everywhere there. And there is no money saved for bayraktars. Once again: what kind of anti-aircraft guns when the drones start swarming in the forest, the city?

[Bingo]

Quote: Tlauicol

when will drones start swarming in the forest, city?

To do this, it is necessary that the drone that carries the threat is several times cheaper. Now it's too expensive for them to "swarm". And small army versions of mavics - to shoot with an anti-drone gun, they do not carry weapons

[tlauicol]

Mavic3 carries 2 grenades. Is it a threat or not? It costs 300 thousand and this is not much to kill / injure a couple of people. Not to mention a burned tank or car

[Bingo]

Mavik costs 300 thousand. carries two grenades and requires an operator. He doesn’t know how to swarm - he’s too stupid for this, those that swarm will cost a couple of orders of magnitude more. And the army version, protected from interception and detection of the operator, will also be more expensive than 300 thousand, and the AGS will make a hundred mavics with their operators for the same 300 thousand. That's why they don't swarm in cities and forests

[tlauicol]

Quote from Bingo

The Mavic costs 300 thousand. It carries two grenades and requires an operator. The AGS will beat a hundred Mavics with their operators for the same 300 thousand.

So does he still carry a weapon? About AGS ... No comments
Regarding the "swarm" and the cost - read the captions for the video

[Bingo]

Quote: Tlauicol

So does he still carry a weapon?

Price quality. AGS loses = cannot swarm. And I can't watch the video

[tlauicol]

How much does AGS cost? Range? Accuracy? Mobility? Target intelligence?

[cold wind]

Quote: Tlauicol

Once again: what kind of anti-aircraft guns when the drones start swarming in the forest, the city?

Optimal 30-35 mm with controlled detonation or radio sensor. What kind of this. The Germans and Turks put them on a mobile chassis.

[Negro]

This is a wunderwaffle. The USMC takes a Norwegian combat module with a 30mm cannon and puts it on each ZLTV.

[cold wind]

The power of the 35x228 projectile is much higher than the 30x113. For dedicated air defense, 35 mm is the optimal caliber. I agree that putting a 30 × 113 chain gun on armored vehicles is an excellent solution. Especially when shells with detonation by radio sensor go into series.

[Negro]

Quote from cold wind

The power of the 35x228 projectile is much higher than the 30x113.

Certainly, but what for? An air blast in 30mm caliber has already been done, Shahid, and even more so a 30mm quadric, will be enough, but Zero is not yet required to shoot down. It will be required - they simply screw the Stinger or the laser hydra to the same module, there are such options.
But putting a 10x35 autocannon on a jeep, even if it is a 228-ton one, is an impossible task. Not an armored personnel carrier after all.

[cold wind]

What for? Schaub was! I repeat, this is for specialized classical air defense systems and not only against UAVs. For example, for the C-RAM class, range with height is also important there, the power of the projectile and flight speed.
If we are talking about military quasi-air defense, then what do you write optimally. We need complexes that work equally well in the air and on the ground. In M-SHORAD, this is implemented optimally.

[Negro]

We are talking about different things. You are talking about specialized vehicles of the battalion level and above. But in parallel, there is the task of protecting a huge number of rear and front facilities from every little thing or the rear from these scooters. There is not enough money to put a self-propelled gun at every traffic light.

And for a specialized machine, 35mm is not the limit. There are also higher calibers.

[cold wind]

Therefore, I wrote in the first message: Optimal 30-35 mm. Naturally, this is for different classes.
So the USA with 155 mm self-propelled guns recently shot down a KR simulator target, so yes, there are higher calibers))

[Negro]

Quote from cold wind

Self-propelled guns recently shot down a KR simulator target, so yes, there are higher calibers

Yes, that's also a good option. But this is art for art's sake.

[Wildcat]

And for a specialized machine, 35mm is not the limit. There are also higher calibers.

if desired, and 76 mm OTO Melara Rapid was placed on a ground carrier.

But again, the German solution looks more logical against the relatively "small-slow", but flying in a large number of drones, where a 40 mm grenade launcher with a programmable detonation and with the corresponding FCS was installed in the DBM.

IMHO, the SVO showed that the conditional drone has become a standard enemy not only for air defense, but also for armored vehicles (which need either KAZ or an adequate version of BK / DBM); and for the infantryman, who is also already given SmartShooter sights with the ability to fire from individual weapons at the drone.

[Negro]

Quote: Wildcat

But again, the German solution looks more logical against the relatively "small-slow", but flying in a large number of drones, where a 40 mm grenade launcher with a programmable detonation and with the corresponding FCS was installed in the DBM.

Yes, the Americans put a cannon, and the Germans either a machine gun or an air-blasted grenade launcher. All solutions have their pros and cons. There are not enough air-blasted grenades for the same shahid, and the Mavic can fly quite high for a relatively low-speed grenade.

[Wildcat]

There are not enough air-blasted grenades for the same shahid, and the Mavic can fly quite high for a relatively low-speed grenade.

IMHO, nevertheless, a 40 mm grenade / machine gun is a "very close air defense" option, almost self-defense, like Smart Shooters, which should enable the fighter not to get a grenade in the head / hatch of an infantry fighting vehicle from a drone.


The optimal "anti-drone" option is a projectile with a programmable detonation.
Other, cheaper options like Tamir cost a lot: Iron Dome's Tamir missiles cost anywhere from $20,000 to $100,000 each, depending on whose numbers are being quoted. (The Israeli government will not officially disclose this information.). Moreover, the upper estimate, 100 thousand ye, is more common. and higher. For the US Armed Forces 100 thousand ye. this is, of course, a disadvantage, and AIM9X for 400 ye goes to universal installations, because "why pay little when you can pay a lot?"
But for other countries where you have to count money, AHEAD options become the main "anti-drone" tool, IMHO. Even Germany is somehow getting hot with its 35 mm.

[cold wind]

Quote: Wildcat

but again, the German solution looks like flying in a large number of drones, where a 40 mm grenade launcher with a programmable detonation and with the corresponding SLA was installed in the DBM.

The Turks experienced the same. I think that the gun a la M230 is much more effective. It seems that the Turks do not yet have such a thing.

They put their 35 mm ZSU Korkut into the troops, they already fought in Libya.

They are seriously interested in the topic of UAVs and protection against them.

[Wildcat]

The series has long had a 30 mm air defense system with AHEAD (MK310 PABM PROGRAMMABLE AIR BURST MUNITION WITH TRACER https://fbcinc.com/source/Northrop_Resources/30_x_173mm_Full_Ammo_Suite.pdf), for example for the DS30M.
Not bad against drones (link video):
https://www.msi-dsl.com/products/seahawk-a1/

Bushmaster 2 is well registered on ground media.

Just like the German 35 mm Millennium, the 30 mm AHEAD is actively used in the navy.
Oddly enough, the Germans managed to not only make the 35 mm in a shelter version (somewhere they have it on conservation), but also cram it onto the wheelbases.

The effective range of 30x173mm is claimed to be approximately 35x228mm. (about 5000 m.)

From the point of view of ammunition and placement on ground carriers, 30 mm is preferable, from the point of view of power - 35 mm.
Both systems have been worked out, shells are made not only in Switzerland, which suddenly turned out to be important.
From a practical point of view, "air defense of the near zone against drones and KR" can be quickly and cheaply closed. Just do not forget that Ukraine is big and you can’t put a memory everywhere.

I repeat, the Saiduneri/IrisT and Amraams against the KR and "Iran-mopeds-with-wings" is like lighting a cigarette with 500 euro bills: 400 thousand USD or 1 million USD for an "Iranian moped" is expensive.

[SincerityX]

I'm reading this and I can't understand. What the hell are they thinking about on the Russian site, how would it be better to counteract the Russian troops?

[Bingo]

Quote from cold wind

The power of the 35x228 projectile is much higher than the 30x113.

Term mixed up Power depends on the caliber, and not on the weight of gunpowder in the sleeve. It just flies slower. And it’s just that air defense against low-flying drones didn’t have a range, much less armor penetration, and a short 30 mm projectile is even preferable - for the price and size of BC

[Duncan]

One defeat by the Lancet of a pair of S-300 launchers removed questions about "profitability". Roy would have knocked out everything else.
Where is this mythical shield? Battleships were powerless against aircraft carriers.

[Bingo]

There, the S-300s stood naked, one Shilka would have removed the question about all the swarms of the world. And the Shell would still sneer. And once again - how much does a lancet cost and how much will a swarm UAV cost? And the whole swarm? S-300 will be cheaper. So there will be Lancets, not swarms. Price quality

[Duncan]

There, the Needle was fired at him and that target was lost.
There is also a video of the defeat of the launcher, where the lancet flew out from behind the roof of the building. There is a defeat of the Wasp on the move, because of the trees.
In mass production, they should not be more expensive than Chinese quadrics. On consumer-grade civilian chips, it is not even afraid of sanctions.

[AndrewMv]

There should be... but with our kickback system, they will cost 100 times the cost.

[AndrewMv]

Hmm... look at the battlefields, there is no adequate protection at all even from the simplest commercial drones. And even if we assume that there are or will be any countermeasure systems, it will not be possible to saturate the entire front with them, most likely some special forces will have them, there are already examples. See for yourself, our troops cannot or do not want to saturate the troops not only with drone guns, but with nightlights. Those. the front will always remain vulnerable to drones.

[kill the fascist]

The war on the ruin showed that air defenses missed hits and could not provide acceptable cover. A layered air defense system will be more reliable, but a couple of three missed nuclear charges and a skiff to the decision-making center.

[Maks1995]

IMHO, commentators are confused in terms - a swarm or UAVs controlled separately by operators.
And even more so Geran-Shahid 1, which simply hits the coordinates separately, without TV guidance (they wrote here)

Advanced electronics will most likely lead to the fact that with electronic warfare, the swarm will simply switch to single attacks with fire evasion. How difficult it is to hit a fast, maneuverable small target - there are a lot of videos on the internet.

[Knell wardenheart]

A swarm of drones will be effective if they are fully automatic, directive control. External control in a real combat situation, taking into account the signal delay, electronic warfare and the inevitable errors of operators, will be much less productive for this task. I admit that there should be some operator control inside the directive, but purely through editing the directive, and not through "manual control".

The issue is the armament of drones and the configuration of the use of these weapons. If we are talking about kamikaze drones, then this is one scenario, it is quite possible to implement it as an automatic one even now.
If we are talking about the use of light small arms by drones, this is a different alignment. Now it is less realistic in automatic mode.
Finally, if we are talking about using variations of weapons, including automatic ones - and using a drone not so much as a flying platform, but as a platform delivering these weapons by air from point A to point B - then full automation is also unrealistic.

The second method involves a raid on rear facilities or the elimination of small units.

The latter method of application implies that several drones will penetrate behind enemy lines and set up a stationary ambush there, and after completing the task, leave the area.

Although now it seems that the kamikaze drone is very effective - the disposability of such a device will directly affect the quality of its filling and protection from third-party influences. So I do not exclude that the era of such an approach will end in the future.

[Igor_Gerasimenko]

A question from a layman in UAVs: is a swarm of drones controlled by a single system, or is an operator assigned to each?

[Sergey_52]

Of course, a single system. Synchronization of real-time actions of such a number of objects is simply beyond the power of a person.

[Codett]

At one time I believed that we also had progress and competence in robotics and UAVs. But then it turned out that Iran, living under sanctions for many years, has overtaken us, and instead of producing our own UAVs, we buy from them. After that, everything fell into place for me: why are the deadlines for all aircraft and shipbuilding programs being pushed back, why is there no Armata, KAZ systems, Su-57, Okhotnik, Kurganets, Platform-O, AWACS A-100, our analogues of Bayraktar and other hyped wonder weapons in the army, which were supposed to be in operation by 2020? It's a pity that because of sabotage and betrayal, and perhaps because of the banal incompetence and corruption of some responsible leaders, who are also defective managers, our army suffers losses, and because of the mistakes of others, our officers and soldiers pay with their lives.

[gsev]

Quote: Codett

But then it turned out that Iran,

An employee in a cadet corps in Russia, somewhere in the suburbs, whose most intellectual task is to fill and turn on a tape recorder around 2005, he received several times more than a graduate of a technical university who worked as a designer. Therefore, to expect returns from designers in such conditions is simply stupid.

[Dedok]

Quote: gsev

An employee in a cadet corps in Russia, somewhere in the suburbs, whose most intellectual task is to fill and turn on a tape recorder around 2005, he received several times more than a graduate of a technical university who worked as a designer.

but as much as I can talk about this - I don’t think that something will change here, even taking into account what is happening and we all see ....

[gsev]

Quote: Dedok

I don't think anything will change here

I think that Putin has already stopped investing easy money in sports, theaters, cinema. Now they have become close to adequate pay for the military in the war zone. I think Kadyrov will soon realize that it is easier to pay an aircraft designer and get modern weapons than to substitute the color of your nation for modern weapons. But the construction of pompous buildings and the re-tiling of tiles can wait. Investing in the Iranian military-industrial complex is fraught with danger in the long term. At one time, the borders of Iran extended through Georgia and Armenia to Dagestan and the North Caucasus.

[core]

by and large, the army is not interested in new products, it's hemorrhoids. and another problem, and society and the army, and in general the whole country did not believe in the possibility of war. and she came, and we were not preparing for such a big won. ready for local conflicts. they are ready for nuclear armageddon, but they simply did not believe in a big war. and therefore not prepared.

[Dedok]

Unfortunately, apart from the fact that a massive drone attack was used, the course of the exercises is not described in any way. It is not known what tasks were set for the pack, and whether it achieved success. It is also not reported what countermeasures the defending side used, and whether it managed to achieve anything.

they are trying to predict risks for air defense, respectively - to look for ways to prevent such risks
we, faced with this back in Syria, did not draw any conclusions for ourselves ...
therefore, we see what the "Geraniums" are doing with the Soviet air defense (on the other side), and the Western counterparts are not ready - in Kyiv (in the city itself) they found an accelerating unit from the German Iris on the ground - which may indicate a miss ...

[zenion]

Oh, and fool our brother, oh, and fool! Just like in the days of the United States, when the country was ruled by the president-actor, laser weapons for shooting down, the devil knows what. But they did. So the prisoner of hell pretended that such a would fell on his knees in front of the United States. What does he weigh there, less than a mosquito, and the USSR shuddered.

[core]

what is the advantage of a swarm of drones? I don't see the benefits. lone drones are invisible, perform their function in silence, a swarm is visible, a swarm is detected, a few high-explosive explosions in the air and that's it. what is the feature of the swarm!? carry a grenade, a mine? the purpose of the application and the advantage of the swarm in a narrow area are not obvious and technically redundant.

[Comrade Kim]

Quote: Vitaly Gusin

A battle-tested Israeli drone swarm could be the beginning of a new kind of war.

The phrase is not finished.
And it will sound like this: "in Ukraine."

Despite the statements of the former leader of Israel, Netanyahu, and his "admirer" Gantz, about refusing to supply weapons to Ukraine, the Zionists continue to pump the Ukrainian Nazis with military aid.
Intelligence, the supply of military equipment through the "anus" (Poland).
As if after that, Israeli will become Polish.
The training of the Azov and other Nazi units by the TsAKHAL is just a small part of the military assistance provided by the Israeli Zionists to the Nazi regime in Ukraine.
Is our Ministry of Defense ready to fight swarms of Israeli drones?
Isn't it time to use the numerous relatives, firmly entrenched in Israel, and taking root in the form of children, grandchildren, mistresses and wives, to stop the threat?

[Sith]

It's time to make a light OLS module with technical vision and an AGS-17 with shrapnel and a remote fuse on a rotating platform ... because light drones are light drones ... they can do a lot of harm ... but shrapnel must be protected from them at close range charge)