Empty talk: NATO-style tanks for Ukraine

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Empty talk: NATO-style tanks for Ukraine
Tanks M1A2C upgraded for the US Army, 2020. Photo by the US Department of Defense


The Kyiv regime continues to beg for tanks from foreign partners. First of all, he wants to get modern NATO-style armored vehicles with high performance characteristics. However, so far only obsolete equipment of Soviet standards has been transferred to Ukraine. And instead of foreign MBT Abrams and Leopard, she receives only dubious promises and assurances of friendship and help.



Empty talk


The Ukrainian authorities started talking about the need for an urgent delivery of foreign tanks back in February-March. In the future, this topic was repeatedly raised by both Kyiv and foreign officials. The Kyiv regime seriously said that foreign countries were obliged to provide it with modern tanks like M1 Abrams or Leopard 2. They promised to protect Europe and the USA, democratic values, etc. with their help.

As you know, requests for the supply of tanks were heard, but executed in a specific way. Ukraine received several batches of MBT with a total number of hundreds of vehicles. At the same time, it was only about Soviet-style equipment, moreover, morally and physically obsolete. Another episode of such assistance is taking place right now. Slovenia decided to give Ukraine the M-55S tanks, which are a deep modernization of the old T-55.


Tank M1A2 at the signing ceremony of the Polish-American agreement. Photo by the Ministry of Defense of Poland

In recent weeks, new interesting information has been received about the hypothetical deliveries of modern MBTs. Immediately, two foreign states capable of providing modern armored vehicles revealed the current state of affairs. They noted the fundamental possibility of transferring tanks and indicated that they were considering such a scenario. However, nothing was said about the start of deliveries. Probably not planned at the moment.

Recent statements


In mid-September, the German press reported that disputes continued in the German government over the possible transfer of tanks and other armored vehicles to Ukraine. The idea of ​​supplying "Leopards", and both major versions, is gaining more and more support. However, she also has detractors, and at that time it was not clear whether she would receive approval.

A few days later, German Defense Minister Christina Lambrecht clarified plans of this kind. She did not rule out the transfer of MBT Leopard 1/2 to the Ukrainian regime, but such measures can only be taken after consultation with foreign partners. Germany does not want to act alone.


One of the M1A2 SEP v.2 tanks transferred to Poland for training, July 2022. Photo by the Polish Ministry of Defense

On September 19, at a press conference at the Pentagon, the opinion of the American authorities was voiced. A representative of the department said that in the previous week, several Ukrainian parliamentarians had been negotiating with US congressmen and the military on the topic of military assistance. Tanks were also discussed along with other samples.

A Pentagon spokesman agreed that the Ukrainian army needed tanks. He also recalled that the American side made every effort to supply Ukraine with Soviet-style MBTs from European countries. In the future, the transition of the Ukrainian army to NATO armored vehicles is not excluded. Similar scenarios are being considered by the US military, but no decision has been made.

In fact, Germany and the United States reported that they were not going to transfer modern Abrams and Leopards to Ukraine yet. In addition, they did not specify whether such plans might change in the future. Nevertheless, the Ukrainian authorities reacted predictably. They again requested foreign armored vehicles and promised to win with its help.

Reasons for failure


Hypothetical deliveries of NATO tanks to Ukraine have been discussed for several months, but this topic does not receive actual development. Foreign partners assure Kyiv of their support and readiness to help with equipment and weapons. At the same time, not all samples can be transferred.


Tanks Leopard 2A4. KMW Photos

It has been mentioned in the recent past that certain modern weapons could over-strengthen the Ukrainian army. Third countries are afraid of Russia's reaction to such processes and therefore refrain from part of the supplies. It is likely that modern MBTs are viewed in this way, and their transfer is associated with potential risks.

Foreign ministries of defense should understand that any piece of equipment that falls into the hands of Ukrainian forces is a potential trophy for the Russian army. For the most interesting products, incl. tanks Abrams or Leopard 2 will open a real hunt. Having received such a trophy, Russian specialists will carefully study it, which will lead to understandable consequences.

It has been repeatedly noted that Ukrainian servicemen have no experience with NATO tanks. They will have to be trained, and a high level of training is required. Otherwise, all possible risks increase, incl. the probability of hitting equipment to the enemy.

It is also necessary to take into account the financial aspects of military-technical assistance. Modern tanks are expensive, and supplying enough vehicles would be prohibitively expensive. A battalion or regimental set of MBTs can be more expensive than any of the previously allocated military aid packages.


Newer Leopard 2A6. KMW Photos

So, in April, Poland and the United States signed an agreement on the supply of 250 M1A2C tanks, related equipment and equipment. The total value of the contract reached 4,75 billion dollars. The average cost of a tank under this contract is 19 million dollars, and the rearmament of one battalion requires more than a billion. Modern versions of the Leopard 2 tank are also not cheap and are hardly suitable in this regard to provide assistance.

Scarce item


The rapid delivery of a large number of tanks is also hampered by other factors related to the state of the available fleet and production capabilities. It turned out that modern MBTs are almost in short supply, and it is not so easy to find the required amount of equipment, even if we are talking about deliveries on a commercial basis.

Thus, since the spring, German officials have repeatedly reported that the supply of Leopards-2 threatens the security of Germany. The available tanks are barely enough for the Bundeswehr, and the reduction of such a fleet carries certain risks. The production of new tanks or the restructuring of existing ones also face significant restrictions, as well as additional time and money.

Poland has already suffered from these processes. According to the agreements of the previous months, she had to transfer to the Kyiv regime all her T-72s of various modifications. To make up for such losses, Germany was supposed to provide Warsaw with the Leopard 2 MBT. However, it later turned out that the German side could provide only 20 tanks, and with delivery next year.


The last version of the German tank is the Leopard 2A7V. KMW Photos

The situation with the American M1 Abrams also has its own characteristics. Thus, it was reported that under the latest contract, Poland will receive 250 new tanks. However, the production of "Abrams" has long been closed, and in fact we are talking about the restructuring of the MBT of old modifications, removed from storage or taken from combat units.

In general, foreign tank-building powers are experiencing serious difficulties with the production or modernization of equipment. Under such conditions, any new order for combat vehicles is of known interest to the manufacturer, but its execution may be postponed indefinitely.

The situation has not changed


Over the past few months, the Ukrainian authorities have been demanding that they be supplied with modern foreign MBTs of NATO standards. Foreign countries, in turn, help only old Soviet-style equipment and, it seems, are not going to transfer modern Abrams or Leopard 2. Such equipment is only mentioned in various statements so far and only in the future tense.

It is easy to see that in recent months, despite all the past events, the situation with tanks has not changed, and the rhetoric of the parties has remained the same. This suggests that nothing will change in the foreseeable future either. The Kyiv regime will continue to beg for tanks, and foreign partners will again assure of their readiness to help and at the same time look for excuses.
39 comments
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  1. +1
    28 September 2022 04: 10
    foreign partners will again assure of their readiness to help and at the same time look for excuses.
    You can't trust them! From the word at all!
    1. 0
      29 September 2022 12: 06
      All NATO generals are afraid of one thing. That on the Ukrainian front, all these prodigies will burn like matches. And if prodigies burn no worse than Russian tanks, then buyers will think - WHY OVERPAY?
  2. 0
    28 September 2022 04: 11
    any piece of equipment that falls into the hands of Ukrainian formations is a potential trophy for the Russian army. For the most interesting products, incl. tanks Abrams or Leopard 2 will open a real hunt.

    A few months ago they wrote that they managed to get a French CAESAR self-propelled gun. Why not show this product inside and out, as they did in Ukraine with the T-90M?
    In Ukraine, they like to shake captured weapons to raise the morale of the population. I think that our people also need to show what they managed to capture from Bandera, in detail and from all angles.

    Modern tanks are expensive, and supplying enough vehicles would be prohibitively expensive. A battalion or regimental set of MBTs can be more expensive than any of the previously allocated military aid packages.

    Not to say that it is very expensive, given that the United States allocates tens of billions of dollars for military assistance to Ukraine
    Data on the cost of main battle tanks, figures from the website of the Canadian Department of Defense.
    $8.5m for the AMX 56 Leclerc 2,
    $6.8m for the Challenger 2,
    $6.7m for the Leopard 2A6,
    $8.8 to 10m for the Leopard 2A7,
    $6.0m for the M1 Abrams,
    $5.0m for the Merkava MK4
    1. +1
      28 September 2022 08: 09
      Quote: Comrade
      Why not show this product inside and out, as they did in Ukraine with the T-90M?

      Hmm, couldn't they just lie to you with this Caesar?
      1. +1
        28 September 2022 14: 57
        And what did you hear about the Caesars in Ukraine? No, they just seemed to take and dissolve. Obviously they didn’t lie, obviously they weren’t interested in ours. I understand if they said that the Himars were captured and not shown in all details, it would be suspicious, but here is a dubious self-propelled gun.
        1. -2
          28 September 2022 16: 26
          Quote from DimCorvus
          And what did you hear about the Caesars in Ukraine?

          What? They work quite well, they sometimes get on the video. I don't watch too much.
          1. +1
            28 September 2022 16: 51
            Sometimes this is once, when they were just put.
            1. -2
              28 September 2022 18: 42
              You see, this is some empty talk. It is known that they were placed. It is not known that they were taken out. Which of the 155mm shells flies from Caesar is even more unknown.

              And if you want to know their location 24/7 - contact the Armed Forces of Ukraine, ask to be included in the battery calculation.
      2. 0
        29 September 2022 02: 37
        Quote: Negro
        and you couldn’t just lie with this Caesar?

        Could.
        Often lie both yours and ours.
        Do you have "reinforced concrete" evidence to the contrary?
    2. -1
      28 September 2022 14: 39
      that the United States allocates tens of billions of dollars for military assistance to Ukraine

      Don't care about the amounts. A bunch of dollars by itself will not turn into a tank , a shell , a ton of diesel fuel , a centner of grain , a kilowatt of electricity . Hang everything to the last rag and crumbs on Europe, all the supply and feeding of the army and the population of Ukraine.
      Their energy, industry and transport will not stand up if they screw up and turn off the economy of Ukraine directly from this. Crowds fleeing from war and hunger? Feed or shoot at the border like Poles do Arabs. It's about whether Russia will simply exist.
    3. -2
      20 December 2022 09: 34
      those tanks that are now going to Ukraine, namely the T-72M1 in the "coolest" version of the Avenger, cost 1,22 million euros .. that is. understand the price difference
  3. 0
    28 September 2022 06: 46
    Quote: Comrade
    Not to say that it is very expensive, given that the United States allocates tens of billions of dollars for military assistance to Ukraine

    ... and most of which end up in the US. And on 404 crumbs fly, but the debt is hung in full. The capitalists help only themselves, and there are no other options.
    1. 0
      28 September 2022 10: 36
      Everyone understands perfectly well that Ukraine will not repay any debts, even if a miracle happens and this entity manages to maintain its statehood on some stump of the territory of the former Ukrainian SSR ...
      1. -2
        20 December 2022 09: 37
        they have already written off everything to our arrested accounts
  4. 0
    28 September 2022 08: 32
    And why, instead of continuing the cycle of "little, late, useless" do we see a discussion of future deliveries? From the new in recent weeks, Thaw, Excaliburs and Nasams have appeared, it's time to tell how useless it all is.
    the situation with tanks has not changed, and the rhetoric of the parties has remained the same. This suggests that nothing will change in the foreseeable future either.

    With tanks, the situation has not changed, but a lot has changed with other things. So you can assume anything, but I would not bet money.
    However, the production of "Abrams" has long been closed, and in fact we are talking about the restructuring of the MBT of old modifications, removed from storage or taken from combat units.

    There are now about 1000 Abrams in the army, and about 4 thousand in the desert. Naturally, they are not produced, but are taken from the warehouse.
    Poland has already suffered from these processes

    Poland generally began to cooperate with the Germans on military issues. Rotten people.
    Available tanks are barely enough for the Bundeswehr

    German officials will soon be beaten in their own parliament - a politician should be able to lie much better than a third grader. No one will forgive the tanks of the Bundeswehr. They ask you not to interfere with the supply of tanks from other sources - the same fourth Leo in storage in different European countries is at least 400 pieces.
    So, in April, Poland and the United States signed an agreement on the supply of 250 M1A2C tanks, related equipment and equipment.

    The Ukrainians would not mind accepting a couple of thousand M1A2Cs as a gift, but objectively speaking, older modifications will also be fine. In the same Iraq, the Americans sent more than 3 hundred cars, which the Arabs used, as usual, mediocre.
    It has been repeatedly noted that Ukrainian servicemen have no experience with NATO tanks. They will have to be trained and a high level of training is required

    It's funny to hear, given the advent of the T-62 and converted T-55s. Retraining for Abram and T-62 is not so different. By the way, the T-62 also needs a loader.
    For the most interesting products, incl. tanks Abrams or Leopard 2 will open a real hunt. Having received such a trophy, Russian specialists will carefully study it, which will lead to understandable consequences.

    So far, apart from infantry weapons, we have seen only a couple of M777 trophies. And Abram or Leo, not the newest modifications, are even less interesting than the same Javelin.
    1. +1
      28 September 2022 14: 06
      Quote: Negro

      There are now about 1000 Abrams in the army, and about 4 thousand in the desert.

      In the US Army, 2509 Abrams are in service and about 3700 in storage. ILC decommissioned their tanks. Military Balance 2021 data

      1. -1
        28 September 2022 14: 11
        It's all together. Army, ILC and National Guard. The EMNIP Army has 10 tank brigades of 90 vehicles. 750 SA training in fact. If they are used at all, I don't know.
        1. 0
          28 September 2022 14: 40
          Weird. ILC decommissioned their tanks. There are 10 brigades in the army, 5 in the National Guard
          15*87=1305, let there be 300 tanks in training. A total of 1605 tanks, from where the MV took another 904 tanks. Directory responsible.
          1. 0
            28 September 2022 15: 47
            Although everything is logical. 1605 M1A2 SEPv2, they are gradually being replaced by M1A2C. The number is still small, most likely they are going to training and experienced teams, there may still be SEPv2
            They may simply not know about the situation with the M1A1 SA, the tank is clearly outdated, our analogue of the T-72B3 mod 2016.
          2. -1
            28 September 2022 15: 53
            The figure is in appearance before the decommissioning of the ILC tanks. 750 cars in the SA modification do not need to be counted, they are non-combat by American standards.
    2. 0
      29 September 2022 01: 46
      Quote: Negro
      Ukrainians would not mind accepting a couple of thousand M1A2Cs as a gift

      Why do you need them?
      Read the reports of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine: Ukraine lost fewer tanks than it captured, and Russia had almost no tanks left.
      So you can get away with it.
      Quote: Negro
      Retraining for Abram and T-62 is not so different

      Do you have personal experience of retraining from Soviet to Western tanks, or is it just your personal opinion?
      1. -1
        29 September 2022 06: 46
        Quote: Comrade
        So you can get away with it.

        There are few things you can do without.
        Quote: Comrade
        Or is it just your personal opinion?

        Of course personal opinion. If you need such experience, then you can ask around the Jews (they had a lot of Soviet tanks in operation at one time, khe-khe). The Poles, by the way, have such experience. Well, or all sorts of Egyptians with Iraqis.
  5. 0
    28 September 2022 09: 12
    One thing I don't understand. The emphasis of Russian tanks is made in such a way as to overcome water barriers, swamps, and other almost impassable places, especially in the East European plains and steppes. But heavyweights such as the Abrams and Leopards are unable to overcome the mud in Ukraine. They just get stuck there. Will be good targets for art.
    1. -1
      28 September 2022 09: 26
      Where does the strange idea come from that the T-72, made under the Central European theater of operations (Germany) in the 70s and Leo and Abram, made under the same theater in the 80s, should somehow differ sharply in cross-country ability?
      1. +1
        28 September 2022 09: 34
        There is a different approach here. T-72 and others were created for mass use in tank breakthroughs and infantry support. Leopards and Abrams as an anti-tank weapon for tank duels and breaking through defenses based on the experience of using the Tiger and Panther.
        1. -2
          28 September 2022 10: 08
          And from what it follows that they lack patency?
          1. +1
            28 September 2022 11: 36
            Maybe because "Abrams" is almost 2 times heavier!
            1. 0
              28 September 2022 13: 52
              What's the difference? The T-90 is about 2 times heavier than the T-34, does it have much worse cross-country ability?
  6. 0
    28 September 2022 09: 33
    In general, foreign tank-building powers are experiencing serious difficulties with the production or modernization of equipment. Under such conditions, any new order for combat vehicles is of known interest to the manufacturer, but its execution may be postponed indefinitely.


    The United States has tanks and equipment in storage ..... in large quantities. I think we will see her. They have competencies and factories; if necessary, they will quickly establish mass production.
    Here we need to think about our capabilities for modernization and production. The T-62M has already been used (not modernized in any way to date. BMP-2M (which needs to be mass-produced from vehicles during repairs) the cat cried, BTR82M and BMP with additional armor the cat cried ..... BMP-3 in any design (although they are also needed with additional armor) are also not so many.And the front and territory are large, the actions are supposed to be offensive.The enemy is saturated above the roof of the anti-tank weapons.
    I’m already silent about the absence of heavy infantry fighting vehicles on a tank base, although large cities are next in line, at least Kharkov, Nikolaev, Odessa .....
    1. -1
      28 September 2022 10: 25
      Quote: Zaurbek
      although large cities are next in line, at least Kharkov, Nikolaev, Odessa .....

      Is the line in that direction?
      1. -1
        28 September 2022 10: 45
        Without tanks, there will be no queue in our direction ..... and taking into account army aviation, there will be no tanks either.
        1. -1
          28 September 2022 11: 15
          There are some questions following the results of the last month.
          1. 0
            28 September 2022 11: 28
            At the end of the month ... yes. And I think it will get worse. While the army will come to a more or less normal quantitative ratio. I think that the referendums are inspired by the situation in the Kharkiv region and the emptiness in the occupied territories.
  7. 0
    28 September 2022 23: 56
    My regards hi Is it like the Germans of K. Shakhnazarov have seen enough and decided to mow down under the "White Tiger"? Which, judging by the "kin", like the Hound of the Baskervilles, was "hiding somewhere in the swamps"? what
  8. 0
    28 October 2022 20: 16
    This suggests that nothing will change in the foreseeable future either. The Kyiv regime will continue to beg for tanks, and foreign partners will again assure of their readiness to help and at the same time look for excuses.
    But THIS SAME allows me to assume that they will receive tanks, as they received air defense and long-range missiles. And serif stations. And the planes will receive. While our snot will chew.
  9. 0
    8 November 2022 21: 47
    They demand ... Let Zelensky call his historical homeland, there are Merkavas there, the Jews say that they can’t be cooler. They do not deceive each other.
    1. 0
      12 December 2022 07: 00
      Merkava is imprisoned under the Middle East theater of operations, she will drown in the Ukrainian black soil)
  10. 0
    12 December 2022 06: 57
    I think both the Germans and the Americans are afraid of reputational losses, now Western publications put Abrash and Leopold in the first places in all the tops of tanks, can you imagine if they start to burn the ancient rusty T-72 and T-90 turrets, how then to push them all over the world)
  11. 0
    23 December 2022 17: 48
    During the war, both belligerents lie about their miserable losses and the monstrous losses of the enemy! For example, a historical reference from the past. During the Second World War, according to the reports of the Wehrmacht command, at the end of August, significantly more personnel were destroyed in the Red Army than it was at the beginning of the war. And there are 5-7 more artillery systems, armored vehicles and aircraft than there were in the Red Army at the beginning of the war. And so the victorious and advancing side at that time lied!