Military Review

The problem of the high cost of precision-guided munitions and ways to solve it

148
The problem of the high cost of precision-guided munitions and ways to solve it

The Russian special operation in Ukraine revealed the highest need of the armed forces of the Russian Federation (RF Armed Forces) in high-precision weapons. The problem is that high-precision weapons are expensive, take a long time to produce, and their production volumes are limited by the capabilities of the military-industrial complex (MIC).


What makes up the high cost of precision-guided munitions?

Guidance and control


First of all, this is a guidance system, which, in fact, makes the ammunition highly accurate. For example, on cruise missiles (CR), this is a route correction system based on terrain, signals from the global navigation satellite system GLONASS (or American GPS, European Galileo, Chinese Beidou) and a high-precision inertial guidance system based on ring laser / fiber gyroscopes. At the final stage, the guidance of the CD can be carried out by optical systems for detecting and recognizing the target. Some KR are equipped with satellite communication systems to ensure their in-flight retargeting.


Blocks of inertial guidance for cruise missiles of different classes. Source wikipedia.org

On high-precision weapons designed to hit moving targets, radar or optical, including thermal imaging, homing heads (GOS) are installed. They can also be combined within a single carrier. A slightly less expensive solution is a seeker with guidance on reflected laser radiation. Some precision-guided munitions can be equipped with special seekers designed to target a source of radar radiation, for example, radar stations (RLS) of enemy anti-aircraft missile systems (SAM).


Television seeker missile X-59 "Gadfly". Source wikipedia.org

It can be assumed that of all of the above, the most inexpensive solution is guidance from the signals of satellite navigation systems such as GLONASS/GPS. There is an opinion that the signals of satellite navigation systems are easy to drown out by means of electronic warfare (EW), but in reality this is far from the case.

For example, as part of a special operation in Ukraine, the enemy does not experience any global problems with the use of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), for the orientation of which satellite navigation is extremely important, or Himars high-precision satellite-guided munitions. They will not have problems with the use of Excalibur guided artillery shells with GPS guidance, which the United States is going to supply to the Armed Forces of Ukraine (AFU) in the near future.

Most likely, electronic warfare equipment is capable of tightly closing only a limited area of ​​​​space, but in this case, the attacking ammunition has already been aimed, is in the final section of the flight, and the loss of a satellite navigation signal will not change anything.

It should be noted that for such precision-guided munitions as artillery shells, guidance systems must withstand huge overloads of thousands of G.

Engines


Engines are another complex and expensive component of precision weapons. In cruise missiles, these are highly economical turbojet engines (TRDs), in hypersonic missiles, ramjet engines (ramjet engines) are used. In other types of precision-guided munitions, solid (rarely liquid) fuel jet engines are installed. Gel-like and paste-like fuel engines are being developed.


Williams F107 (WR19) small-sized turbofan engine for the Tomahawk cruise missile. Source wikipedia.org

В UAV-kamikaze, which can also rightfully be classified as precision-guided munitions, use highly economical piston gasoline and diesel engines, and in some modifications, electric motors powered by lithium batteries / accumulators.

There are no engines only in guided bombs, but their short range is their disadvantage, which does not allow them to be effectively used in the face of enemy air defense (air defense) countermeasures. The exception is gliding guided bombs, which can fly many tens of kilometers when dropped from a great height.

Hull, load-bearing structures, control drives, warhead


Precision-guided munitions designed for flying at high speeds, maneuvering with high g-forces, independently or on a carrier, have strong hulls, often with thermal protection from heating by the oncoming air flow, as well as powerful control surface drives. A significant part of the cost can be added by measures to reduce the visibility of ammunition in the radar range - materials, high accuracy of surface mating, complex hull configuration.


Stealth cruise missile AGM-129 ACM. Source wikipedia.org

For some types of ammunition, the hull must withstand penetration deep into the attacked object, such as a ship or an underground bunker, without damaging the warhead. High strength must be combined with low weight, which leads to the use of expensive materials - special steel, titanium, magnesium and aluminum alloys.

The same applies to the warhead, which can be cumulative, high-explosive fragmentation or thermobaric, with increased armor penetration, with a delay in detonation, or, conversely, with detonation in the air. Some types of warheads may include submunitions, which in turn may have their own guidance systems.

So how to ensure the saturation of the armed forces with cheap precision-guided munitions? An example is the US programs to turn conventional unguided munitions into high-precision ones.

Foreign experience


Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM)


As part of the American JDAM program, the development of which was completed in 1997, conventional free-fall bombs receive a set of small wings that increase the gliding range, a tail module that includes inertial and satellite navigation systems, as well as drives and control surfaces. In combination, this allows you to get a circular probable deviation (CEP) of the order of 11 meters at a distance of up to 28 kilometers.


Image of the installation of the JDAM kit on aerial bombs of various calibers. Source wikipedia.org

When dropped from an F-22 fighter flying at an altitude of 15 kilometers at a speed of 1,5 Mach, a range of 44 kilometers was reached. To hit moving targets, JDAM kits include a seeker with guidance on reflected laser radiation.

Since 1998, more than 250 JDAM kits have been produced, which are installed on aerial bombs with a caliber of 000 to 230 kilograms. During the operation in Yugoslavia, 910 air bombs with JDAM kits were dropped, which hit 650% of the assigned targets. The cost of one JDAM kit is about $78.

Precision Guidance Kit (PGK) M1156


For artillery in the United States, a high-precision guidance kit M1156 was developed, which is installed in place of the standard fuse for 155-mm M795 and M549A1 shells, which are designed for American artillery systems M777, M109A6 Paladin and German PzH2000.


Picture of PGK M1156. Source wikipedia.org

By April 2018, over 25 M000 kits had been produced. The production time for one set is less than six hours. Now about 1156 sets of M70 can be produced in one day. The cost of one M1156 kit is less than US$1156.

As in the case of JDAM, the guidance of projectiles with the M1156 kit is carried out according to the data of the GPS satellite navigation system. Yielding to the high-precision M982 Excalibur projectile in range and accuracy, the PGK M1156 is much cheaper and complements it perfectly.


M982 Excalibur projectile. Source wikipedia.org

During tests in 2014, when firing from the German PzH2000 self-propelled artillery mount at a distance of 27 kilometers, more than 90% of the shells equipped with the PGK M1156 fell at a distance of less than five meters from the target.

The M1156 kit has a built-in security system - if it falls further than 150 meters from the given coordinates, it is not undermined, which reduces the likelihood of "friendly fire" - the defeat of its fighters and equipment that caused artillery support in its immediate vicinity.

The M1156 kit is being developed for the new XM1128 and XM1113 high-explosive fragmentation projectiles with a range of about 30-40 kilometers when firing from a 39 caliber barrel (M777), as well as an improved version designed to fire from 58 caliber artillery barrels with the XM1113 projectile at a distance of up to 70 kilometers.


Active rocket projectile XM1113. Source wikipedia.org

Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System (APKWS)


APKWS is a laser guidance system developed by BAE Systems for unguided aviation missiles (NAR) Hydra 70 (caliber 70 mm). The name APKWS applies to both the kit being installed and the HAR Hydra 70 equipped with this kit. APKWS in many cases can effectively replace the AGM-114 Hellfire anti-tank guided missile (ATGM), which has a longer range, a different type of seeker and a more powerful warhead, but also much larger and more expensive. The cost of the APKWS kit is about $22.

APKWS includes an original technical solution - laser radiation receivers are located in the edges of the control surfaces, and not in the head of the Hydra 70 NAR. This allows the Hydra 70 APKWS kit to be integrated between the rocket engine and the detachable warhead with a fuse.


Image of APKWS installation in HAR Hydra 70. Source wikipedia.org

APKWS has a range of 1,1–5 kilometers when launched from a helicopter and 2–11 kilometers when launched from an aircraft. It is planned to increase the range when launched from a helicopter to 12–15 kilometers due to the new NAR jet engine. At the moment, it has already been possible to increase the range of APKWS by 30% only due to the refinement of the software that provides the optimal trajectory of the rocket.

In 2021, an APKWS rocket with a proximity fuse destroyed an UAV during tests, which confirmed its ability to work effectively against air targets, including small ones.

With a high probability, similar kits can be developed for other unguided munitions, for example, multiple launch rocket systems (MLRS) and mortar mines.

Conclusions


Precision weapons are expensive. But when comparing guided and unguided munitions, one cannot simply take two samples, guided and unguided, and compare their cost.

It is necessary to take into account, for example, for aerial bombs or NAR, how many unguided munitions will have to be used to hit a target that can be hit by one or two guided munitions? Then it is necessary to add to this the cost of the carrier's flight hour and how many sorties will have to be made to destroy this target, to assess the risk of destroying the carrier aircraft, which will have to approach the target directly.

For artillery, this will be the wear of the barrel of an artillery gun, the cost and timing of transporting thousands of unguided shells by road, rail or ships (it will be completely unprofitable to transport unguided ammunition by plane). It is also necessary to assess the risk of an enemy retaliatory strike according to the data of counter-battery systems against an artillery battery that fires thousands of shells.

Nevertheless, it is necessary to work on reducing the cost of precision-guided munitions, including using the experience of other countries.

It can be noted that all the above decisions of NATO countries on the conversion of unguided munitions into guided ones are designed to solve problems at a distance of less than 50-100 kilometers. It can be assumed that this is due to the fact that there are simply no longer-range unguided products or their number is limited, respectively, there is no point in bothering with the creation of kits for their modernization.

There is no doubt that the kits for turning unguided weapons into precision ones,
such as JDAM, M1156 and APKWS are extremely important. However, in addition to them, the armed forces need high-precision weapons that allow them to attack beyond the range of most enemy air defense systems, that is, from a distance of about 200-400 kilometers. We will talk about the prospects for creating inexpensive mass-produced high-precision long-range weapons in the next article.
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  1. yuriy55
    yuriy55 18 September 2022 04: 12
    +8
    Interesting article and very interesting.
    Nevertheless, it is necessary to work on reducing the cost of precision-guided munitions, including using the experience of other countries.

    I'm not sure that Russia has breakthrough technologies and developments in the production of domestic cheap element base.
    I believe that kamikaze drones are capable of replacing the necessary high-precision munitions at a distance of up to 50 km. And strike UAVs can be cheaper and more efficient at a distance of 50 to 150 km.
    Further, the defeat of targets must be assigned to high-precision missiles.
    IMHO. I may be wrong, but minimizing electronics is a very difficult process and TERRIBLY EXPENSIVE to get a XNUMX% result.
    hi
    1. Mustached Kok
      Mustached Kok 18 September 2022 04: 33
      +18
      Something completely different is important - the fact that the development of UAVs and the development of high-precision or guided munitions is impossible without the presence of microelectronics production. And we have problems with this. The availability of high-quality microelectronics production in the modern world is a strategic resource.

      UAVs, by the way, have a number of disadvantages that shells / missiles do not have. So I would not say "they will replace them" - rather, a redistribution of priorities according to goals will be carried out. The most valuable and difficult targets, the destruction of which greatly weakens the enemy, will be destroyed point by point with the help of UAVs, and the secondary targets will be left to the share of guided / corrected missiles and projectiles. At the same time, the category of areal and fortified targets remains, which for a long time will be easier and cheaper to destroy by mass dumping of cast iron
      1. yuriy55
        yuriy55 18 September 2022 04: 47
        +3
        Quote: Mustachioed Kok
        UAVs, by the way, have a number of disadvantages that shells / missiles do not have. So I would not say "they will replace them" - rather a redistribution of priorities by goals will be carried out.

        yes good
        Everything is correct. It is necessary to highlight priority areas and developments and work for the result: high quality, low cost, speed and automation of production.
      2. Stas157
        Stas157 18 September 2022 11: 55
        +4
        . Russian special operation in Ukraine revealed the greatest need armed forces of the Russian Federation (RF Armed Forces) in high-precision weapons.

        There is an even higher need. This is target designation and reconnaissance. How to deal with it?
      3. Genry
        Genry 18 September 2022 13: 32
        -3
        Quote: Mustachioed Kok
        The development of UAVs and the development of high-precision or guided munitions is impossible without the production of microelectronics. And we have problems with this.

        There are problems only in mass consumer microelectronics with high requirements for consumption and calculation. power in hand.
        As for the military, there are no problems, since the requirements here are very low - reliability and shelf life are more important.
      4. insafufa
        insafufa 20 September 2022 08: 50
        0
        We have a wonderful centimeter complex and a daredevil for shelling stationary targets made by their Amitekh plant, so the liberals tried to strangle him with all their might. An excellent complex made it possible, if illuminated with an UAV, to reduce the consumption for the destruction of a strong point to 3-5 shells, its cost was three times cheaper than the red field. Prostate equipment for a shot in the dimensions of a standard HE projectile of 152mm calibers and 240mm mines. so, to destroy a stronghold, 50 conventional uncorrected shells are needed when adjusted from an UAV. They also developed an analog
        kit M1156
        when the same projectiles were aimed at GSM coordinates, however, the consumption increased to 5-8 pieces to destroy the object and depended on the quality of the signal and the determination of coordinates.
    2. Romario_Argo
      Romario_Argo 18 September 2022 09: 58
      +7
      The "Dynamics" module from "Compass" can be screwed into the head of the projectiles with a caliber of 152 mm, 203 mm, into the regular place of the fuse.
      It includes a combined fuse, a GLONASS signal receiver and control surfaces - aerodynamic rudders that unfold in flight and adjust the projectile trajectory, CVO no more than 10 meters at maximum range (average 5m)
      Dynamics = $1000 против $80 = M000 Excalibur
      5 UAS Krasnopol (target speed up to 40 km/h) = 1 M982 Excalibur (target speed 0 km/h)
      export value of 155-mm UAS Krasnopol = $ 70
      export value of 152-mm UAS Krasnopol-M = $37 (sale to India 000-1999)
      set PGK M1156 = $13
      1. frog
        frog 18 September 2022 11: 20
        +2
        Naturally. From only since 2011, nothing but talk. Not the one, you know, the team came up with .... so you can safely push all this into the category of left-handers.
        1. frog
          frog 18 September 2022 11: 36
          -2
          Do the venerable minusers have other information? I will be happy to be confounded, especially since this Dynamics has not been advertised anywhere. Only she is not. However, you can add more minuses if it becomes easier wink
        2. Romario_Argo
          Romario_Argo 18 September 2022 11: 44
          +5
          the Dynamics module is massively used on SVO for 152-mm, 203-mm shells
          turning simple high-explosive shells into UAS - which will last for 100 years
          and RTR satellites issue target designation of the same Bars-M (3) Cosmos-2556 from 19.05.2022/XNUMX/XNUMX
          2 in April 2022
          1. frog
            frog 18 September 2022 12: 05
            -3
            the Dynamics module is massively used on SVO for 152-mm, 203-mm shells
            turning simple high-explosive shells into UAS - which will last for 100 years

            Deer, of course, don’t prolong with a proof, because deer don’t have permits? That is, the correct forest noise .....
            1. Romario_Argo
              Romario_Argo 18 September 2022 12: 50
              -5
              The module "Dynamics" consists of 10 parts incl. testing
              shift at each stage of 30 people for 5 minutes at the assembly stage of the product
              = 12 modules per hour per person
              3 shifts = 15 working hours = 180 items per person x 90 people
              = 16200 Dynamics modules per day
              x 30 days = 486 Dynamics modules per month since the end of 000
              there is a possibility of an increase in the number of assembly shops from 2022
              for 2020 to 08.2022 there are 15 Dynamics modules
              worth talking about the price in 1$ per item
              1. frog
                frog 18 September 2022 13: 04
                +1
                My applause. Long and lengthy, sometimes turning into ovations...
                And where is all this splendor, numbering in the hundreds of thousands? What black hole? With .... lines of contact between bravura (and not bravura)) there are somehow no reports on the application of this brilliant idea. Although the thing is definitely worth it. Or someone outplayed the secrets, although ten years ago tryndezh stood. or, as I suspect (and I will be glad to be wrong), all these theoretical fabrications do not cohabit with reality. Knowing about some features of our system, rather the second....
                1. Romario_Argo
                  Romario_Argo 18 September 2022 13: 09
                  -2
                  the Dynamics module is used on SVO on high-explosive shells 152-mm and 203-mm
                  maybe not massively 500 thousand only
                  average consumption of shells per day 20 pieces
                  satellites launched in April, active since June = 100 days
                  10% 2000 pieces for 100 days = 200 pieces for SPG Msta, Hyacinth-S, Pion
                  SAU Pion 203 mm total involved no more than 30 units
                  here they are apparently only used Dynamics module, mass of explosives 17 kg per projectile
                  there is little to collect and identify - especially when you don’t know what to look for
                  It is also possible that the egg-pod was rammed into 15 million units against NATO
                  The question is how many M982 Excalibur rounds does the United States have?
                  1. frog
                    frog 18 September 2022 13: 16
                    0
                    That I understood already, sho you are sure of it. And happy for you. From only the news from the fields they are silent about this. Secrecy interferes, apparently ....
                    1. Romario_Argo
                      Romario_Argo 18 September 2022 13: 19
                      -6
                      We rammed a jug of 15 million pieces against NATO

                      The question is how many M982 Excalibur rounds does the United States have?
                      USA produces 150 shells per month!
                      And the Russian Federation produces Dynamics modules 500 per month
                      1. frog
                        frog 18 September 2022 13: 38
                        0
                        We can produce as many Dynamic modules per month. And we can use it so-so, because we didn’t bother with this topic. Those mentioned by you will easily triple production and know how to use it. And yet they teach ... wards) And so - yes, everything is awesome at the Marquise, things are going like never before ....
          2. bk0010
            bk0010 18 September 2022 14: 03
            +5
            Quote: Romario_Argo
            and RTR satellites give target designation the same Bars-M
            What fabulous nonsense in one sentence!
            1. frog
              frog 18 September 2022 15: 41
              0
              But strong and patriotic. True, with confirmation so-so .... But it doesn’t matter, it sounds .... juicy ..... topical .... Which is what is required.
          3. EVR
            EVR 19 September 2022 07: 58
            +1
            I wonder, dear, where did you get such data from, and who still produces the Dynamics, because suddenly the Compass is collapsed.
    3. KCA
      KCA 19 September 2022 10: 41
      0
      Minimization in military and space applications is evil, then optimization of control algorithms is more important, the Buran had 4 BTsVEMs operating in synchronous mode, but it flew off and landed, although Soviet microcircuits were the largest in the world
  2. Andy_nsk
    Andy_nsk 18 September 2022 04: 55
    +12
    Good article with the right accents. The author correctly pointed out that the main thing at cost is sensors and motors, and not electronic components, as many people think. The cost of microcircuits, and even more so of passive components, the cost of printed circuit boards is insignificant in percentage terms, and often m / s from Zelenograd are used (except for the most high-performance processors, which we cannot and will not be able to produce in the coming years). I see only one way to reduce the cost: to increase the serial production, then the cost of each product will decrease significantly. At the same time, it is necessary to reduce the production of NUR-owls, primarily for aviation. I don’t understand why, for example, they produce NURs for airplanes and helicopters? - the efficiency is low, and pilots must risk their lives and cars every time!
    This does not mean that there is no need to develop domestic electronics, incl. and high-performance processors, of course, but this requires huge investments and time, and it is necessary to direct at least part of the windfall profits from oil and gas to this, only the oligarchs are unlikely to want to share their windfall profits... Unfortunately...
    1. Vadim Voroshilov
      Vadim Voroshilov 18 September 2022 07: 27
      +12
      in the entire automotive industry and other industries where 0% failures during operation are needed, it is provided by electronics with a 90 nm process ... to produce in Russia is essentially not a problem at Micron 54 nm has been mastered .... development is about 28 nm ... it's about the number of chips in the order...roughly ordering 1000 units would cost $1 per piece, and 000 would cost $1
      1. Eroma
        Eroma 18 September 2022 09: 26
        +10
        I read that a chip factory, regardless of the quantity produced, eats a certain and not a small amount of money. Those. capacity utilization is the most important way to reduce costs.
        1. Genry
          Genry 18 September 2022 13: 39
          -1
          Quote: Eroma
          I read that a chip factory, regardless of the quantity produced, eats a certain and not a small amount of money.

          You have a similar situation at home, called "utilities". Heat, water, electricity, security, repairs, ...
          1. Eroma
            Eroma 18 September 2022 15: 22
            +2
            There the problem is not in the command line, but in the production process! A communal service is nonsense, you don’t burn light and don’t pay, but there production consumes resources in a certain amount at any productivity, even if you make 100 thousand chips, at least 10 million, the cost of the plant is the same, abstractly 200 million, for example, in the end you can get yourself: from 2000 to 20 bucks a piece
      2. frog
        frog 18 September 2022 11: 23
        -3
        It all depends on how many of these products this line can generally make. Let it be in a month .... But she can’t do it anymore, even if you turn on the anthem every 10 minutes. And all the questions to the one who these (and similar projects) moved in this form. And scaling this enterprise is quite difficult. if at all possible in our conditions ....
        1. Andy_nsk
          Andy_nsk 18 September 2022 16: 42
          0
          I don’t understand what “line” you are talking about, production lines (as an example, production lines) are used in the mass production of products, usually from hundreds of thousands of products per year and above, in the production of Calibers, and even more so Iskanders and Daggers of such seriality no, which means that, in fact, each product is assembled separately, and the issue of increasing output essentially boils down to an increase in assembly places. Another thing is the limitation on the number of the most critical components, primarily engines and GOS, but their production is by no means mass-produced, and there are no production lines for them, if such lines were created - production would reach hundreds of thousands of items per year, and the cost of each individual product would be reduced by dozens, and maybe hundreds of times.
          1. frog
            frog 18 September 2022 17: 54
            0
            I wrote about the chips, just in case. I know how "pencils" are made.... There, the chkazists just showed up, knowing how easy and simple everything is, the main thing is political will. The very same Loch Ness snake, or Almasty ....
    2. this
      this 18 September 2022 08: 28
      -4
      NURS efficiency is low, you are talking complete nonsense.
    3. dauria
      dauria 18 September 2022 09: 40
      +4
      Good article with the right accents.

      Yes, everything is labeled correctly. It is necessary to make an adjustable one out of an "ordinary cast-iron" in this way. Instead of a fuse, screw in a block with seeker, autopilot, rudders and rudder drives. And along the way, an unmentioned moment is solved. Bombs at the database are stored in small piles, in the open air and transported, sometimes they are simply dragged with kicks in the bomber. So it is much faster to equip a large group for departure. And only the heads, and not the whole ingot, will have to be stored in greenhouse conditions and transported like a baby.
      After all, with an urgent departure of the entire squadron, everyone without exception, who has arms and legs, was involved in the suspension of bombs. And the gunsmiths did only a "fine" operation - they checked the fixation, screwed the fuse and inserted the "ball" into place.
      1. stankow
        stankow 18 September 2022 13: 21
        +1
        And the coordinates of the goals who, when and what will be introduced, in each head?
        1. storm
          storm 18 September 2022 14: 00
          0
          The pilot of the aircraft / helicopter will give the command to transmit the coordinates of the targets to the GOS after detecting and receiving the coordinates of the targets from the equipment installed on the aircraft / helicopter ...
          1. stankow
            stankow 18 September 2022 16: 31
            +2
            And such equipment (aviation sighting system for the WTO) is very difficult. And not every plane has it. Capture the target, determine the coordinates in the aircraft coordinate system, convert to Glonass coordinates. Then how to transfer to the heads of suspended ammunition? There are no wires to the heads, the radio receiver / transmitter (with encryption) cannot be squeezed in. Guided missiles have a special data bus, but converted ones with an attached head do not have one. With art. shells are a little simpler - the coordinates of the target are entered into the head before firing with a portable device. Which, however, should receive coordinates from the SOB machine, again a radio link or wire is needed ... In general, the idea (and practice) is good, but there are difficulties that need to be discussed. In order not to be perplexed - why do artillerymen not really use it!?
            1. storm
              storm 18 September 2022 20: 22
              -3
              The aviation sighting system is available on all Su-34/35/57, as well as Ka-52m, Mi-28nm ....
              They have the ability to transfer data from the sighting system directly to the GOS of guided weapons ...
              1. stankow
                stankow 18 September 2022 22: 54
                +3
                Namely - guided weapons. Which was developed specifically for them and passed through years of testing. And then fuse heads appear, which are screwed to NURSs for which nothing was foreseen - a data bus, loading coordinates. So you can only load the coordinates on the ground and not change them in flight.
  3. The comment was deleted.
    1. Siberian 66
      Siberian 66 18 September 2022 06: 04
      +14
      Infantry caliber? Or Zircon on the tank? And here they are?
      1. avg avg
        avg avg 18 September 2022 06: 14
        +12
        Do not prevent a person from overpowering and tearing off the covers! He needs to feed his family!
    2. frei67
      frei67 18 September 2022 06: 07
      +4
      that is, do you think it is necessary for each mortar in caliber? and how long does it take to find the launch site? pass it on command and? a rocket flies to an empty place
      1. Whowhy
        Whowhy 18 September 2022 06: 41
        0
        Two balloons spaced at a certain distance with millimeter-range locators will detect the launch site (as well as the location of the guns) instantly ....
        1. your1970
          your1970 18 September 2022 07: 03
          +4
          Quote: whowhy
          Two balloons spaced at a certain distance with millimeter-range locators will detect the launch site (as well as the location of the guns) instantly ....

          2 Christmas trees in the air? well...
          1. Whowhy
            Whowhy 18 September 2022 08: 09
            0
            In the conditions of the NWO, if the enemy does not have aviation, how will they be shot down? They are not at the forefront.
            1. stankow
              stankow 18 September 2022 13: 29
              0
              Azrostati air defense systems go astray.
              1. Whowhy
                Whowhy 18 September 2022 13: 38
                -1
                First, you need to crawl to the desired distance, and then have time to crawl away .... wink Secondly, the signature in the radio range of the balloon is scanty, so you have to crawl too close. And in the third, only the radar seeker will work on the balloon, therefore, by hanging corner reflectors on "balloons" at a certain distance in front of the balloon, at different heights, we will cover the balloon from the air defense system, in fact, completely. Only DRGs will remain as a real danger, but there will also be control over them ....
                1. stankow
                  stankow 18 September 2022 17: 02
                  +1
                  The radar signature of the balloon is huge. It has a metal frame, equipment, hanging and holding cables, power and alarm wires - many tens of meters. The balloon itself is not small. And in general, the reflection of radio waves occurs not only from metal objects, but from the border of dielectric media, for example, air-shell. Any classic missile with radio command guidance, for example, will work on a balloon.
                  1. Whowhy
                    Whowhy 18 September 2022 17: 18
                    -2
                    The radar signature of the balloon is huge. It has a metal frame

                    You mixed it up with the dirigible bandel. smile
                    Suspension cables may be synthetic. The power cable and holding cables don't provide much light. The air defense system still needs to be dragged imperceptibly to the desired distance, and corner reflectors can be raised against the air defense system.
                    1. stankow
                      stankow 18 September 2022 18: 43
                      +1
                      No, I did not confuse it with an airship. Where to attach the equipment - transceiver, power supplies, antennas, antenna drives, directly to the shell of a soft balloon? And the power and alarm cables cannot be synthetic. In the meter range, the cables are excited by the incident wave and re-radiate (reflect) almost all the energy. In other ranges reflector directional radar antennas will, as everyone guesses, reflect the incident waves, and that's what it is designed for. Can't be transparent. And it can't be small, like many meters.
                      1. Whowhy
                        Whowhy 18 September 2022 21: 18
                        0
                        Well, maybe you're right about the cable, I'm not a big expert in radar. At least in terms of physics, it seems to be true.
                        Millimeter-wave antennas are small (much smaller and lighter than centimeter-wave), so everything can be mounted in a composite gondola, and its synthetic cables to the shell.
                        In addition, these balloons will hang far behind the front line, so the enemy will have to drag air defense systems close to the front line, and this is fraught.
          2. cmax
            cmax 18 September 2022 08: 33
            +3
            Quote: your1970
            2 Christmas trees in the air? well...

            Nude nudes were also written about drones a few years ago! What a bad idea is to use small, as during the war years, balloons, only with radars to detect enemy artillery positions.
            1. your1970
              your1970 18 September 2022 09: 05
              0
              Quote: cmax
              What a bad idea is to use small, as during the war years, balloons, only with radars to detect enemy artillery positions.

              The fact that the radar will hang in the air STILL at a decent height and sparkle for 200 kilometers ...
              "Here I am, here I am..."
              Dream to launch anti-radar missiles, dream...
              А under her- SECOND a dream: machines for servicing the first one. If you can still move the radar operators somewhere - and even then it’s questionable, then you can’t move the generators and the leash. It’s enough to bang the leash and this radar will just fly away, for good
              1. Whowhy
                Whowhy 18 September 2022 09: 50
                0
                To do this, at a minimum, it is necessary to have ground-based anti-radar missiles capable of hitting air targets and working against millimeter-wave radars. wink I'm not talking about the fact that it is possible to raise a third balloon with an anti-missile battery ....
                Yes, at the initial stages it will not be very easy until all artillery batteries and MLRS are suppressed. Before raising the balloons, you will have to organize a clear interaction with the calculations of artillery, MLRS and tactical missiles. Then the "response" can be organized almost instantly. But soon the enemies will even be afraid to fart. laughing
                1. frog
                  frog 18 September 2022 11: 26
                  -4
                  To do this, at a minimum, it is necessary to have ground-based anti-radar missiles capable of hitting air targets and working against millimeter-wave radars.

                  Harpoons in a similar pattern appeared quickly. despite all the squeals here. They have had charms for a long time.
                  I'm not talking about the fact that it is possible to raise a third balloon with an anti-missile battery ....

                  What about how small? Let's get the Death Star...
                  You can immediately forget about "clear interaction". As well as about fuzzy .... however ....
                  1. Whowhy
                    Whowhy 18 September 2022 11: 37
                    +1
                    Harpoons in a similar pattern appeared quickly. despite all the squeals here. They have had charms for a long time.

                    Something you, my friend, have not woken up to see yet. The harpoon is an anti-ship missile, and the harm is an air-to-ground missile, not the other way around. In addition, so far there is nothing in the world against millimeter-wave radars .... request
                    1. frog
                      frog 18 September 2022 12: 07
                      -2
                      And what's the difference? A preliminary control center is issued, like a prison, and then the GOS works ..
                      And with this range, everything is not bad, in the context of a conversation ....
                      1. Whowhy
                        Whowhy 18 September 2022 12: 48
                        -1
                        And what's the difference? A preliminary control center is issued, like a prison, and then the GOS works ..
                        And with this range, everything is not bad, in the context of a conversation ....

                        You better go and sleep. laughing
                        Harm walks along the radar beam and it is enough to turn off the radar for a few seconds so that he flies anywhere, besides, he does not catch the millimeter range. And if he can still somehow work on the ground by inertia, then he does not shine at all through the air. And preliminary control points in relation to balloons are the same as "a finger to the sky."
                        You can get it, say, with the help of long-range and medium-range air defense systems, but, firstly, the signature of the airship is not at all large ("rags" reflect the radio beam very poorly), and secondly, a "response" will immediately arrive and it will not seem a little ....
                      2. frog
                        frog 18 September 2022 13: 05
                        -3
                        And all? I am disappointed repeat That is, in the topic you, as expected, "to the generator of positive content, so-so. Also an option wink
                      3. your1970
                        your1970 18 September 2022 20: 48
                        +1
                        Quote: whowhy
                        the signature of the airship is not at all large ("rags" reflect the radio beam very poorly),

                        I read about this idea in "Science and Life" for the 1960s and "TM" of the 1970s ...
                        All of a sudden, it's been 60 years! - and there are still no such radars on balloons in any army ....
                        Quote: cmax
                        There would be a desire, but according to the mind, there is always an opportunity to do it.
                        - for 60 years there were no opportunities
                        It- fact.
                      4. Bolt cutter
                        Bolt cutter 18 September 2022 22: 06
                        +1
                        There is still no radar on balloons in any army ....
                        There are American border guards.
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tethered_Aerostat_Radar_System
                      5. your1970
                        your1970 18 September 2022 22: 38
                        +1
                        Quote: Bolt Cutter
                        There is still no radar on balloons in any army ....
                        There are American border guards.
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tethered_Aerostat_Radar_System

                        smugglers use anything against them??
                        do they have heavy artillery to bombard the positions of such balloons?
                        SAM?
                        MANPADS?
                        aviation?
                      6. Bolt cutter
                        Bolt cutter 18 September 2022 22: 46
                        0
                        they have heavy artillery
                        EL\M2083 (analogue) is used by India and Israel. And their neighbors are extremely restless, and they are well armed.
                      7. Nikolaevich I
                        Nikolaevich I 19 September 2022 01: 11
                        +1
                        Quote: whowhy
                        Harm walks along the radar beam and it is enough to turn off the radar for a few seconds so that he flies anywhere, besides, he does not catch the millimeter range.

                        Harm's INS works in tandem with a prolongator, which generates Harm's "virtual" flight path by the mathematical method! That is, turning off the radar will not always help! And, if my memory serves me, the latest modification of the PRR has the possibility of satellite correction!
                      8. Charik
                        Charik 19 September 2022 22: 19
                        -1
                        and who will deliver the latest version of Harma to them? Lam dead uncles, the latest version costs (but this is not accurate)
                      9. Whowhy
                        Whowhy 20 September 2022 15: 45
                        0
                        Kharm is an air-launched missile.
                      10. Demon_is_ada
                        Demon_is_ada 21 September 2022 00: 42
                        0
                        Colleague, wipe your nose to skeptics! laughing
                        The millimeter range goes well along a flexible waveguide. You can not hang anything at all on the balloon, on the emitter. No wires or anything. Hang the receiver on another lol
                        And let them hit a balloon with a piece of hose, you are welcome ...
                      11. your1970
                        your1970 21 September 2022 07: 39
                        0
                        Quote: Demon_is_ada
                        Colleague, wipe your nose to skeptics! laughing
                        The millimeter range goes well along a flexible waveguide. You can not hang anything at all on the balloon, on the emitter. No wires or anything. Hang the receiver on another lol
                        And let them hit a balloon with a piece of hose, you are welcome ...

                        Repeat
                        Quote: your1970
                        I read about this idea in "Science and Life" for the 1960s and "TM" of the 1970s ...
                        All of a sudden, it's been 60 years! - and there are still no such radars on balloons in any army ....

                        Here are examples of US border guards and that's all ....
                        I am not an expert in this matter, but I am very embarrassed that for 60 years they have not massively adopted (up to the armies of some African tribes) such a necessary, technically simple and extremely useful thing.
                        It doesn't bother you- absence their EVERYWHERE?
                      12. Whowhy
                        Whowhy 21 September 2022 08: 14
                        +1
                        Doesn't it bother you - their absence EVERYWHERE?

                        No, this is the standard dialectical path of development.
                      13. your1970
                        your1970 21 September 2022 09: 29
                        0
                        Quote: whowhy
                        Doesn't it bother you - their absence EVERYWHERE?

                        No, this is the standard dialectical path of development.

                        At the time of printing in the 1960sneed The radar was already confirmed a long time ago. 60 (!!!) years have passed ...
                        In what technical problem? In balloons? In 3 trucks - 1 operator room, 1 descent + generator, 1 in reserve with stocks of everything?
                        Quote: whowhy
                        Millimeter-wave antennas are small (much smaller and lighter than centimeter-wave), so everything can be mounted in a composite gondola, and its synthetic cables to the shell.

                        You understand that during this time drones appeared - as a class of weapons - and we all discussing about radar on balloons? Like 60 years ago? How much more does she need - 10-20-30? Moreover, there are working samples, developments on how to use ...
                        The US border service tried to transfer them to the army, the US army refused. This at least means that there are problems for the army when using them
                      14. Whowhy
                        Whowhy 21 September 2022 12: 29
                        0
                        You can't even imagine what the inertia of thinking is.
                        Moreover, according to psychological research, in peacetime, people who think according to the principle “how it doesn’t get worse”, and not “how to make it even better” get knocked out to the authorities.
                      15. Demon_is_ada
                        Demon_is_ada 21 September 2022 09: 16
                        0
                        Well, 60 years ago there were no centimeter or millimeter radars. Meter on a balloon is a problem, the weight is huge, especially on that element base.
                        There were also no cruise missiles, and especially satellite-guided artillery shells ... Why were they at that time ???
                      16. your1970
                        your1970 21 September 2022 10: 44
                        0
                        Quote: Demon_is_ada
                        Well, 60 years ago there were no centimeter or millimeter radars. Meter on a balloon is a problem, the weight is huge, especially on that element base.
                        There were also no cruise missiles, and especially satellite-guided artillery shells ... Why were they at that time ???

                        There were already cruise missiles.
                        The millimeter range is 30 years old, simple drones are 10.
                        The former are still not there, the latter threaten to displace precision artillery, due to the high cost of guided projectiles.
                        Let's see what happens next - partial mobilization announced
                      17. Demon_is_ada
                        Demon_is_ada 21 September 2022 09: 23
                        0
                        were not massively adopted (up to the armies of some African tribes)

                        Are you kidding me? belay
                        Where do African tribes get millimeter radars? They should eat well...
                  2. Whowhy
                    Whowhy 18 September 2022 11: 38
                    +1
                    What about how small? Let's get the Death Star...
                    You can immediately forget about "clear interaction". As well as about fuzzy .... however ....

                    Another fan of empty banter .... lol
                    1. frog
                      frog 18 September 2022 12: 08
                      -4
                      The principle of the mirror has not been canceled. They exchanged your banter for .... not yours.
              2. Genry
                Genry 18 September 2022 14: 07
                -1
                Quote: your1970
                The fact that the radar will hang STILL in the air at a decent height and sparkle for 200 kilometers ...
                "Here I am, here I am..."

                You were told about "two ...".
                Do you have any crappy stereo music at home?
                When the phases of the signal (or stupidly mono signal) coincide, you get the feeling that it is between the speakers (virtual source) - shoot ...
              3. Demon_is_ada
                Demon_is_ada 21 September 2022 00: 35
                +1
                So this is a dream for us, the search and destruction of radars and carriers of anti-radar missiles.
        2. Grigory_78
          Grigory_78 18 September 2022 08: 47
          -5
          Yes, yes, two balloons with radar, radar operators, power supply and life support systems, fuel supply and other fuels and lubricants ...
          No need to trifle, fantasize already the death star over the battlefield
          1. cmax
            cmax 18 September 2022 09: 23
            +4
            Quote: Gregory_78
            Yes, yes, two balloons with radar, radar operators, power supply and life support systems, fuel supply and other fuels and lubricants ...
            No need to trifle, fantasize already the death star over the battlefield

            When you don't want to do something, you always find a reason. All your arguments and comments of a comrade above and yours can be applied to any type of weapon. An aircraft can be shot down, a ship sunk, a tank knocked out, and so on. There would be a desire, but according to the mind, there is always an opportunity to do it.
            1. frog
              frog 18 September 2022 11: 28
              -7
              There would be a desire, but according to the mind, there is always an opportunity to do it.

              There has already been written quite a lot, in maritime affairs, what are the desires of the users themselves. And what is the result ..... so this is not even optimism ......
              1. Whowhy
                Whowhy 18 September 2022 11: 47
                0
                It is one thing to design anew, and another to assemble from finished products, like a designer ....
                1. frog
                  frog 18 September 2022 12: 11
                  -7
                  Well, you, as an experienced developer, of course, will tell about the compatibility and the logic of the TK (who, by the way, issues something)) and about many other things
                  1. Whowhy
                    Whowhy 18 September 2022 13: 20
                    0
                    Well, you, as an experienced developer, of course, will tell about the compatibility and the logic of the TK (who, by the way, issues something)) and about many other things

                    "In the elderberry garden Kiev uncle" lol
                    1. frog
                      frog 18 September 2022 13: 34
                      -5
                      Thank you. Zampolitov did not like in those years love
          2. Whowhy
            Whowhy 18 September 2022 10: 01
            +4
            No need to trifle, fantasize already the death star over the battlefield

            Empty banter. negative
          3. Genry
            Genry 18 September 2022 14: 15
            +2
            Quote: Gregory_78
            Yes, yes, two balloons with radar

            You will not need "two ..." for the entire front line at all.
            Quote: Gregory_78
            radar operators, power supply and life support systems, fuel supply and other fuels and lubricants ...

            Isn't this supposed with other radar options?

            And for ground-based radars, the attenuation due to the Earth is greater and the range of low-flying targets is completely non-existent.
            Quote: Gregory_78
            No need to trifle, fantasize already the death star over the battlefield

            Those. you generally do not recognize the analysis and critical perception of information.
            1. Whowhy
              Whowhy 18 September 2022 15: 43
              0
              Quote: Gregory_78
              Yes, yes, two balloons with radar

              You will not need "two ..." for the entire front line at all.

              Yes, that's understandable. Two is a "combat unit", since the millimeter range and the detection method are triangulation. The centimeter range requires many times more weight and power, and millimeter stations can be a little larger than a laptop. Yes, and safety is higher, since missiles have not yet been invented against the millimeter range (however, only air-to-ground also exist against the centimeter range).
        3. newtc7
          newtc7 18 September 2022 12: 21
          +4
          Quote: whowhy
          Two balloons spaced at a certain distance with millimeter-range locators will detect the launch site (as well as the location of the guns) instantly ....


          I fully support. Aerostats are the future in terms of airspace control and radio in both conventional and infrared bands. They can be small, cheap and very effective, and they don’t give a damn about the curvature of the earth, the hills, the trees, and what else prevents ours from shooting down everything that flies low near the Ukrainians.
          Those who minus these are classic representatives of "experienced warriors" who cannot look beyond their noses due to the amount of accumulated knowledge.
          If we had these balloons, no Ukrainian Mi-8s would fly to Mariupol, and to Belgorod too.
          It is much cheaper and easier than an AWACS aircraft, and is comparable in efficiency.
          1. Whowhy
            Whowhy 18 September 2022 13: 08
            0
            Those who minus these are classic representatives of "experienced warriors" who cannot look beyond their noses due to the amount of accumulated knowledge.

            Well, or "mishandled Cossacks" ....
            1. newtc7
              newtc7 18 September 2022 13: 14
              -1
              Quote: whowhy
              Those who minus these are classic representatives of "experienced warriors" who cannot look beyond their noses due to the amount of accumulated knowledge.

              Well, or "mishandled Cossacks" ....


              I don't think to be honest. It's just people who have formed a certain view of the world and they do not want something new and unknown to appear there and reject such ideas. Moreover, their criticism is generally logical, but once upon a time tanks were criticized by drones and much more.
        4. stankow
          stankow 18 September 2022 13: 27
          -2
          One radar is enough. With this on earth, there is no need for an azostat. Read about the Zoo radar.
          1. Whowhy
            Whowhy 18 September 2022 13: 45
            +1
            One is sufficient. With this on earth, there is no need for an azostat. Read about the Zoo radar.

            Do you recommend taking it from the exhibition?
            1. stankow
              stankow 18 September 2022 16: 37
              -1
              I advise (if you accept advice) not to take on faith the manuals of anti-Russian propaganda. The zoo has been in operation since 2008. They don’t say how many in the troops, but for example, in a not very dense area of ​​\u4b\u60bdefense, during the last offensive near Kharkov, the Armed Forces of Ukraine captured one copy. Since it is unlikely that everyone was captured, this does not happen in a war, so there were at least 4 of them. Meaning at the front of 20 km - 40 pieces. Quite normal saturation. After all, its range is about XNUMX km, for ballistic missiles XNUMX km. Mean overlap even with a margin.
              1. Whowhy
                Whowhy 18 September 2022 17: 20
                0
                Well, yes, well, yes .... And the rockets keep flying, and the shells keep falling .... recourse
              2. d4rkmesa
                d4rkmesa 18 September 2022 17: 41
                +1
                What cover are you talking about? In all Tg they write that at best they try to reduce the counter-battery fight to a draw, with great difficulty (that is, it usually turns out to shoot back and dump, it’s better not to ask about accuracy). And "Zoo-1M" ​​is a very expensive (~25 million $) and capricious thing, which is very difficult to use, its previous versions have long been broken or do not work due to the lack of zips, and in general more often did not work than did their job functions. Even sometimes it causes bewilderment that Almaz-Antey itself produced such a product.
                1. stankow
                  stankow 18 September 2022 18: 19
                  0
                  Overlap in kilometers of front. Left and right and in depth - 20 km each. And every projectile and rocket in this space is tracked - where it flew from, where it hit, the type of gun that fired it. Yes, technology is complex. Yes, breakdowns are possible. Do you think American technology - the radar does not fail? The repair units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine know her on the fingers, take care of her, they have a lot of spare parts and instantly change damaged blocks? wink
                  1. d4rkmesa
                    d4rkmesa 19 September 2022 12: 00
                    +1
                    "And every projectile and rocket in this space is tracked - where it flew from, where it hit"
                    It's funny, just a branch of the TC "Zvezda" on the topvar. The overlap of the Khmeimim base directly recalled the early Syrian attacks of 400 km each (later, however, it turned out that the terrain was not the same). Where is the information from?
                    As for ukrov, firstly, they have more such radars there, and secondly, repairs are organized promptly in NATO bases.
                    1. stankow
                      stankow 19 September 2022 12: 32
                      0
                      Yes, 400 km overlap with aircraft flying 10 km. Not by stalking UAVs. And 20 shells, rising 3 km. These are the laws of physics and geometry.
                  2. Demon_is_ada
                    Demon_is_ada 21 September 2022 00: 57
                    0
                    All ground stations for counter-battery firing work "after the fact", to determine the coordinates of the position of the battery, he needs 2/3 of the trajectory and sometimes several shots.
                    There was a similar radar on the prp, the uncles from the factory sawed it in my presence and something didn’t work out. Left it as a motion sensor. By the way, it worked on shells.
                    1. stankow
                      stankow 21 September 2022 11: 55
                      0
                      ### All ground-based counter-battery firing stations operate "after the fact"

                      Of course. There must be a fact of shelling and a flight of a projectile. But the definition is obtained long before the end of the shelling.

                      ### it needs 2/3 of the trajectory to determine the coordinates of the battery position

                      Yes, part of the trajectory. And it is always visible, shells and minis rise very high.

                      ### and sometimes a few shots
                      The more, the more accurate the definition of the trajectory, according to the coordinates of the OP and the target. Observation is carried out continuously.

                      ### There was a similar radar on the prp, guys from the factory sawed it in my presence

                      So the unfinished sample was

                      ### something didn't work.
                      You can't judge the general by the particular.

                      ### By the way, worked on shells.
                      So the radar part worked properly. Next up is the software. Since then, he has come a long way...
        5. Monar
          Monar 20 September 2022 15: 41
          +1
          Yeah. Until the wind blows. How will you manage the ball?
    3. ZAV69
      ZAV69 18 September 2022 22: 14
      0
      APU can beat for hours in Donetsk
      Well, not for hours at all. They will fire 3-5 shells "seemingly there" and dump them. An hour later, repeat from a different position.
  4. Kuziming
    Kuziming 18 September 2022 07: 12
    +7
    With respect to the author of the article, now we need to do both promising developments and primitive cheap ersatz drones. The massive use of cheap drones will help at least open the enemy's air defenses.
  5. tlauicol
    tlauicol 18 September 2022 07: 15
    +7
    The Mavic3 is five times cheaper than the Apkvs kit for a 70mm rocket. Apart from the cost of the rocket itself. So, you need to think about the topic of high-precision cheap weapons, but if you need to solve problems now, then ... I would prefer to saturate the troops with drones, kamikaze drones, and not wait another 10 years
    1. Genry
      Genry 18 September 2022 14: 20
      -1
      Quote: Tlauicol
      The Mavic3 is five times cheaper than the Apkvs kit for a 70mm rocket.

      And where did your Mavics go when using electronic warfare?
      Household toy!
      1. tlauicol
        tlauicol 19 September 2022 04: 35
        0
        Quote: Genry
        Quote: Tlauicol
        The Mavic3 is five times cheaper than the Apkvs kit for a 70mm rocket.

        And where did your Mavics go when using electronic warfare?
        Household toy!

        Don't share anywhere. How they flew, and continue
  6. Vadim Voroshilov
    Vadim Voroshilov 18 September 2022 07: 21
    +7
    $ 10 for a set seems to be expensive ... but on the reconnaissance channel - an instructor from the FSB training ground announced the cost of one 000 mm mine - this is 82 rubles, that is, $ 40 ... from the Zvezda channel - the cost of a shot from a tank 000 mm guns about $ 700, that is, 125 set for a 4 mm projectile for $ 000 - equal to the cost TWO 152 mm shells ... not at all expensive anymore
    1. ZAV69
      ZAV69 18 September 2022 22: 19
      +1
      APU can beat for hours in Donetsk
      Casting from gray cast iron in an earthen form, stump, groove - the body is ready. Pour TNT into it, screw in the fuse and expelling cartridge. The issue price is 500 maximum. Where does 40000 come from? Mortar mine is the cheapest ammunition in fact. He doesn't even need a sleeve
  7. Whowhy
    Whowhy 18 September 2022 08: 10
    +3
    In addition to the article, we can say that we have not yet closed the niche of ultra-small ground-based tactical missiles (the Americans have an analogue).
    Take, for example, the new LMUR Product "305". With minor modifications, it can be modified into a vertical launch rocket. If the length is reduced (due to the engine), then it will fit into the troop compartment of the infantry fighting vehicle (in this case, the range will be reduced to ~ 8 km). Such missiles in the troop compartment of the same BMP-3 will fit 12 pieces (based on the equivalence of the weight of seven fighters in full gear), and in terms of dimensions - 28 pieces (but this is already 2240 kg versus 980 kg). Well, we must also take into account the weight of sealed containers (so that the crew does not suffer during the launch).
    Such a missile, with a standard filling, can hit any armored vehicles (as it flies from above), but can also be equipped with four unguided explosive modules fired in 4 directions (with stabilizing parachutes), which, in design, correspond to the MON-50 mine, which, together, with an explosion at a height of 30 meters (the sensor is located in the rocket), they are able to cover a circle with a radius of 60 meters with a continuous field of fragments, with the defeat of enemy manpower in vehicles.
    Also, containers with 4 missiles can be installed near the defended position (as the Americans do). The missiles are launched on a radio command (the direction and distance data are included in the radio command) and are guided either independently or by a laser beam. For a cassette warhead, direction and distance are sufficient.
    1. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 19 September 2022 00: 36
      +1
      Quote: whowhy
      Take, for example, the new LMUR Product "305". With minor modifications, it can be modified into a vertical launch rocket.

      What about fig? request A self-propelled complex "Baikal" is being developed with a missile with a telethermovision seeker, a vertical launch ... yes
  8. Kusja
    Kusja 18 September 2022 08: 15
    +4
    You need to have good intelligence and a network of informers in enemy territory in order to destroy launchers with little bloodshed, and not spend diamond ammunition to intercept an infinite number of missiles from these launchers.
  9. Magic archer
    Magic archer 18 September 2022 09: 30
    +8
    I’ll express my opinion. Instead of all sorts of nano heranos, it was necessary at one time to buy a chip assembly and production line from China (Taiwan). Even the last generation. With the help of bribes, corruption, whatever. resources. And then now there would be no such talk about backwardness and so on. Remember China 30 years ago. For example, the fleet. And compare with the current state of affairs. And then everything will become clear. And I don’t need to argue about 90 e. I will answer like this .But then there were the chic 2000s! And why did we miss this time the question is not for me request
    1. Arkady007
      Arkady007 18 September 2022 10: 30
      +3
      We would have had everything for a long time if not for Chubais and his friends.
    2. AlexLuk
      AlexLuk 18 September 2022 11: 18
      0
      And everything was. Everything was purchased and quite officially. In 2007, AMD bought all the equipment for the production of, if not the most modern, but quite fresh stones. Yes, and they offered to switch to more recent equipment. Only this equipment, bought in Germany, from the AMD company, rotted in the warehouse ... Do not forget about the red chubis rat.
      I advise you to google the article “Microelectronics in Russia before and after 24.02.2022/XNUMX/XNUMX⁠⁠” on a peekaboo, habré or other platform. Very educational.
    3. bk0010
      bk0010 18 September 2022 14: 23
      +1
      Quote: Magic Archer
      the place of all sorts of nano heranos had to be redeemed from China (Taiwan) at one time for the assembly and production line of chips. Even the last generation.
      Bought in 2007. The position before last at the time of purchase (old AMD machines, Fab36, Dresden, if anyone is following, 130 nm, outdated 200 mm wafers). Installed in 2014 on Angstrem-T, still does not work, the company is bankrupt. Micron is working at 180nm on 200mm wafers and trying to render something at 65nm. Rosnano, Crocus and Sitronics tried to do something (300 mm wafers, 65 nm), but nothing is heard about the results, apparently everything stopped in 2014.
      1. frog
        frog 18 September 2022 15: 46
        -3
        Yes, this infa will not help ... loudspeakers implanted in irons. They are generally with digital / real so-so ....
    4. d4rkmesa
      d4rkmesa 18 September 2022 17: 46
      +2
      Unfortunately, corruption then only worked for its own pocket, and not for the interests of the country. First, they bought a line for an overprice, then for several years they paid for its storage in the Netherlands, because corrupt officials ruined the construction of clean production facilities for it. And then it turned out that chips were not needed in Russia, they arrived ... What prevented them from buying out the entire issue and starting production of the same Elbrus? Because everywhere there are only manual drivers, and there are less and less engineers and adjusters of the required level.
      1. frog
        frog 19 September 2022 08: 56
        -2
        Because everywhere there are only manual drivers, and there are less and less engineers and adjusters of the required level.

        Everything is logical, it’s much easier to drive with your hand / yelling stiff nonsense / throwing hats than to work. Again, he closed his mouth - the materiel to the original.
    5. The comment was deleted.
  10. Arkady007
    Arkady007 18 September 2022 10: 29
    +2
    Personal opinion.
    Inertial systems are the least susceptible to external influences and are absolutely autonomous. We need to focus on them. Moreover, we are not the latest in their development and implementation.
    GLONASS and GPS can be turned off by removing satellites and then shells and bombs and missiles will be covered.
    The simplest kamikaze drones, cheap and cheerful.
  11. Proctologist
    Proctologist 18 September 2022 10: 36
    +10
    I remember the results of the 1991 war in Iraq: the Americans made an amazing conclusion that GPS-equipped missiles are in no way inferior in accuracy to remote-controlled ones, which are radically more expensive. They are more expensive, incl. and the need to direct (one launch - one operator), while with GPS "fire and forget." Volley - no problem! Today we see the real cost of satellite navigation from Chinese gadgets with aliexpress.

    Second. High-precision weapons realize their advantages only in conditions of "high-precision" reconnaissance. What's the point of accurately hitting the coordinates from which the target has just taken off and left? You need to see the target more accurately than the ammunition allows, and not vice versa.

    Hymars is the tip of the iceberg, a fairly simple missile system (I don’t call it MLRS, since it doesn’t hit areas). We have the same or better. But the combination "satellite constellation and CIA intelligence + operational target designation for GMLS missiles" allows these missiles to inflict significant damage.

    The final advantage of precision weapons is logistics. If it takes 1/10 of "ordinary" ammunition to hit a target, then you need 10 times less ammo, warehouses and vehicles to transport it. Considering that precision-guided munitions are being transported by aircraft, this is a significant advantage.
  12. Vladimir Michailovich
    Vladimir Michailovich 18 September 2022 11: 15
    +1
    Thanks to the author for an interesting material.
    Confused only statement of a problem-expensive/cheaply.
    There is only one measure of value - labor, in this case, the labor of engineers and workers. This also applies to the actual ammunition, guidance systems, and even global positioning systems.
    By itself, the raw materials for production are worth a penny.
    To reduce the cost, it is necessary to nationalize military-industrial complex enterprises, legally limit profits to 20%, and impose a complete ban on the use of imported components. It's no secret that the use of imports is a breeding ground for corruption.
    1. d4rkmesa
      d4rkmesa 18 September 2022 17: 53
      +2
      Military-industrial complex enterprises already belong to the state, profit, or rather, profitability there is <5% (your 20 would be considered happiness there, read the laws on the state defense order), the import ban - well, then you’ve arrived, you can sweep shops for six months, and then close.
  13. Vladimir Michailovich
    Vladimir Michailovich 18 September 2022 11: 25
    +1
    Quote: your1970
    It is enough to bang the leash and this radar will just fly away, for good

    And what prevents you from making and installing 1000 balloons, some of which are equipped with emitters simulating a working radar? The emitter is on the balloon and the receiver is below? Who prevents to place optical stations there with brains fixing the consequences of firing, for example, sound, dust, thermal radiation. The Armenians in Karabakh set up optical stations on long poles and worked, quite successfully by the way. a generator with concrete rings for wells - they cost pennies - and you already need a direct hit - and this is a resource.
    1. stankow
      stankow 18 September 2022 13: 36
      -2
      The wind interferes. And icing. And helium deficiency.
      1. Whowhy
        Whowhy 18 September 2022 14: 28
        +1
        Strong winds are rare, places with increased wind load, like on Taman, are also not common. In addition, the balloon can be made according to the shape of an aerodynamic figure (wing) with a Bartini profile, which "runs" towards the flow.
        There are modern hydrophobic coatings against icing. There seems to be no shortage of helium (well, or I'm already completely behind the times in retirement), but who prevents the use of the same hydrogen? No one will fire incendiary bullets at this balloon.
  14. Axon
    Axon 18 September 2022 11: 42
    +4
    We need cooperation, which will show that the cost is not so high, but the defense industry does not want to share the money.
  15. iouris
    iouris 18 September 2022 11: 58
    +4
    The problem of high cost is an ideological and political problem. Do you think it will be cheaper to capitulate? Those who are unable to secure victory must leave. Or they need to be removed by any means.
    1. UA3QHP
      UA3QHP 18 September 2022 13: 01
      +2
      The problem of high cost is an ideological and political problem.

      That's for sure. At present, all high-precision products are produced according to peacetime standards, in small batches, almost manual assembly. Moreover, these products are designed for long-term storage.
      If we transfer production to wartime standards, then the cost will decrease by at least an order of magnitude. But who needs it?
  16. Vladimir Michailovich
    Vladimir Michailovich 18 September 2022 12: 01
    +3
    Quote: Arkady007
    The simplest kamikaze drones, cheap and cheerful.

    I also think so. Yes, in the Russian Federation they can be manufactured in 100000 pieces, monthly, without any problems.
    Modern software allows you to accurately navigate the terrain and select targets automatically using an image bank. Run around the clock at 10 units per hour along the main logistics highways and any logistics will be covered and with them military operations. No air defense will survive.
    1. stankow
      stankow 18 September 2022 13: 38
      -1
      And hit civilian cars? You can not do it this way !
  17. shark507
    shark507 18 September 2022 12: 20
    0
    Quote: Gregory_78
    Yes, yes, two balloons with radar, radar operators, power supply and life support systems, fuel supply and other fuels and lubricants ...
    No need to trifle, fantasize already the death star over the battlefield

  18. AndreiSam
    AndreiSam 18 September 2022 13: 06
    +5
    Again, an attempt to push through a false narrative about precision weapons: expensive. No, it’s not expensive to maintain an enemy army - this will cost the people dearly.

    Take the same artillery shells. According to the standards for the destruction of a bunker-type target, up to 100 shells can be withdrawn, while only one or two are enough to be corrected. Projectiles of any type require special grade steel and machining on machine tools for their production, not to mention the logistics and storage of tons of unguided projectiles.

    And if the cost of the corrected one is several times higher, then their effectiveness is an order of magnitude. So even in economic terms, high-precision weapons have an advantage.

    Microcircuits cost a penny, various kinds of servos are the same. I mean, a basic set that can turn a free-falling bomb into a guided weapon is a penny compared to the total economic effect.
  19. Alekandr
    Alekandr 18 September 2022 13: 24
    +3
    In continuation of the topic, I recommend reading the article https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/obschie-svedeniya-o-zarubezhnyh-boepripasah-s-sistemoy-korrektsii-traektorii/viewer.
    The saturation of the WTO troops is of course very important, but this only works with intelligence, target designation and timely response to the information received. And with this it seems that we are worse than the enemy. I believe that this is the main problem of the RF Armed Forces in terms of equipping V and VT.
  20. spirit
    spirit 18 September 2022 14: 40
    0
    When dropped from an F-22 fighter flying at an altitude of 15 kilometers at a speed of 1,5 Mach, a range of 44 kilometers was reached

    Maybe one of the authors of VO will take up the comparison of the effectiveness of JDAM and Hephaestus) What do the SU34 pilots say about this?)
    1. LastPS
      LastPS 18 September 2022 20: 59
      +2
      Yes, no one knows what efficiency Hephaestus has and no one will tell.
  21. Ryaruav
    Ryaruav 18 September 2022 15: 08
    0
    an attempt to bring a howitzer high-explosive fragmentation grenade into high-precision ammunition is faced with the fact that MLRS systems already have such ammunition that are cheaper and longer-range, and for tanks even a cornet, a javelin is cheaper
  22. 1984
    1984 18 September 2022 15: 41
    0
    or maybe, at least for a start, start equipping shells with radio fuses for detonation at a height, this is a technology from the end of the Second World War, and even our troops do not really use it, although the effectiveness of destruction against openly located manpower and equipment increases several times, I understand that it’s better to hit the trenches and trenches with a delay setting, but there were quite a few episodes with the driving equipment of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and the soldiers walking along which, I have never seen them shied away with an air blast ....
    1. alien308
      alien308 18 September 2022 17: 11
      +3
      A radio fuse with a modern noise-resistant and intercept-protected radio channel or a timer fuse are sabotaged by arms manufacturers. Devices are inexpensive, you won’t earn much, and work and hemorrhoids to hell. It is more profitable to make 1 expensive rocket than one hundred thousand modern fuses.
    2. Whowhy
      Whowhy 18 September 2022 17: 49
      0
      Actually, I met with such fuses 30 years ago - they brought me for examination. The children, as always, climbed where they didn’t need to (to the warehouses of the office that designed Acacia), they began to disassemble one, smashed the tube with the intermediate detonator with a hammer (and there was a heating element), well, and decided to hit with a hammer on "this powder". It’s good that they poured at least a little and the whole detonator did not explode when they hit it with a hammer (not otherwise, one of them had a powerful Protector Angel). However, after the micro-explosion, the hammer bounced off and flew alone on the head, not sickly ...
      Well, I'm sorry, I was talking .... repeat This is me to the fact that there should be such fuses in the troops. yes Only, judging by the design, these are not radio fuses, but something like a laser rangefinder (very compact).
  23. the same doctor
    the same doctor 18 September 2022 16: 55
    0
    The problem of the cost of precision-guided munitions is solved by simplifying their design and increasing their number.
    Also, reducing the range of an ammunition by half reduces its price by a factor of four, i.e. it is necessary to bring the launchers closer to the target.
    The cost of electronics (if it has its own) can be generally neglected - the filling in a SIM card is more complicated than in Krasnopol. The transfer of rocket electronics to a modern element base will significantly reduce the price ...
  24. Vladimir Michailovich
    Vladimir Michailovich 18 September 2022 17: 22
    -1
    Quote: stankow
    And hit civilian cars? You can not do it this way !

    An exclusion zone is being declared 100 km from the front line - civilians must leave the territory ahead of time. Yes, and warriors from both sides use civilian vehicles.
  25. Vladimir Michailovich
    Vladimir Michailovich 18 September 2022 17: 24
    -1
    Quote: stankow
    The wind interferes. And icing. And helium deficiency.

    Well, this did not interfere with balloons during the Second World War.
  26. SkyMaXX
    SkyMaXX 18 September 2022 19: 11
    +2
    Adjustable versions of NAR C-8 and C-13 have long been developed. But just where are they? The thing is very useful, it saves dozens of "pencils" and one expensive ATGM when firing at lightly armored vehicles.
  27. max_everhead
    max_everhead 18 September 2022 20: 07
    +2
    As usual, we have nothing of the sort. There are high-precision weapons, but there are no options for such a budgetary re-equipment. 250 JDAM sets....
  28. Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 18 September 2022 23: 40
    +1
    1. There is an opinion that the signals of satellite navigation systems are easy to drown out by means of electronic warfare (EW), but in reality this is far from the case.

    For example, as part of a special operation in Ukraine, the enemy does not experience any global problems with the use of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), for the orientation of which satellite navigation is extremely important, or Himars high-precision satellite-guided munitions. They will not have problems with the use of Excalibur guided artillery shells with GPS guidance, which the United States is going to supply to the Armed Forces of Ukraine (AFU) in the near future.

    1. Well, finally! Confessed! That the effectiveness of electronic warfare turned out to be much lower than "advertised dreams"! Repeatedly on the pages of VO, I expressed distrust of electronic warfare equipment, giving priority to active air defense / missile defense systems (air defense systems, MZA ...)! And it turns out that I am, in general, right! I am not categorically opposed to electronic warfare equipment; but I am opposed to putting them "at the forefront"! The fact that despite the presence of vaunted electronic warfare systems in the HSR, HIMARS rockets successfully hit objects. Often 3 shells at one point, says that "excellent expectations were not justified"! Special air defense systems are needed, "sharpened" against artillery shells, RSs and URs ... (you can add: also against loitering ammunition ...)! And "abroad" this was understood much earlier than in Russia! Both in Israel with the "Iron Dome" and in the USA with the MNTK they are successfully developing this direction!
    2. Kamikaze UAVs, which can also rightfully be classified as high-precision munitions, use highly efficient piston gasoline and diesel engines, and in some modifications, electric motors powered by lithium batteries / accumulators.
    Not only ! Especially compact turbojet engines (TRD) are also used, created using gas turbines and compressors from turbocharging systems of automobile combustion engines. , both PuVRD and turboprop engines (TVD) can be used ... and with piston engines it’s not “everything so simple”! Along with the "traditional" pistons, axial piston and rotary piston engines are being developed! Among the "electric" UAVs there are also drones with "hybrid" power plants ("piston" + electric generator)
    3. Engines are absent only in guided air bombs, but their disadvantage is their short range, which does not allow them to be effectively used in the face of enemy air defense (air defense) countermeasures.
    Why compare UABs with missiles if UABs are a separate "class" of weapons? It is believed that for URs, the warhead (warhead) occupies 0,2-0,5 of the total weight (mass) of the rocket ... while for UABs, the warhead takes 0,7-0,9 of the total weight (mass) of an air bomb ! And this is the "highlight" of UABs! In addition, there are UABs equipped with engines (solid-propellant rocket engines and turbojet engines ... and possibly PuVRDs ...); but small in weight and "moderate" power and with a small supply of fuel!
    4.JDAMIn addition to JDAM, there is also a Russian planning and correction module (IPC) from the GNPP "Basalt" for "old" (free-falling) bombs! But the "ignored" RF Ministry of Defense!
    5. For artillery in the United States, a high-precision guidance kit M1156 was developed, which is installed in place of the standard fuse for 155-mm M795 and M549A1 shells, which are designed for American artillery systems M777, M109A6 Paladin and German PzH2000.
    In the Russian Federation there is a similar "module" "Dynamics" from "Compass" ... To which the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation at one time reacted "coolly"!
    6.ARKWS[b]So what about ARKWS? You can also screw in the "vane" control (correction) module in place of the head (nose) fuse! (Such "converters" have been developed, for example, for 80-mm NARs in Ukraine and the Russian Federation ...)
    7. In addition to the listed bells and whistles, special subsystems are also used for the high-precision use of free-falling bombs (SVP-24 "Gefest" and the like ...). Do not "forget" cluster bombs (containers)!
    PS Often there are categorical "objections" against guided (adjustable) ammunition with "motivation": "expensive ... very expensive!) This is strange and stupid! Often, in order to hit a target, it is necessary to shoot tens and hundreds of "ordinary" ammunition ... at that while guided munitions can destroy a target with one or two ... at most, three! Who will say how much 100 "ordinary" shells will cost and compare with the cost of one guided projectile (air bomb)? And the logistics problems? Why does the RF Ministry of Defense often forget that "the miser pays twice" (and in war they pay with blood!), that "we are not rich enough to buy cheap things" ?!
  29. acetophenone
    acetophenone 19 September 2022 02: 08
    0
    Quote: Ryaruav
    an attempt to bring a howitzer high-explosive fragmentation grenade into high-precision ammunition is faced with the fact that MLRS systems already have such ammunition that are cheaper and longer-range, and for tanks even a cornet, a javelin is cheaper

    That's just, as far as I know, missiles go astray, but shells do not.
  30. Cheburek
    Cheburek 19 September 2022 10: 55
    -1
    "Precision weapons are expensive." Expensive is a relative term. High-precision weapons are created for the "blitzkrieg" concept, in the minimum required quantity in order to disable the control, communications, air defense and supply centers within a few weeks, it requires competent and long-term planning of the operation with the collection of a large amount of information about the enemy. Capable units with a loss of control and supply are already finishing off the advancing units with cheap weapons. Therefore, the concept of "expensive" for high-precision weapons can be applied in armies, where, instead of the ability to plan and conduct operations, they are trying to raise the effectiveness of conventional mass cheap weapons with "expensive" ones for use in everything ...
  31. certero
    certero 19 September 2022 12: 31
    -2
    A simple question is where is the Russian analogue to American chimeras? Where are our shells and missiles flying on glonass?
    1. frog
      frog 19 September 2022 21: 04
      -1
      Come on, but what was the championship!? And what kind of Olympics?)) Are you all talking about some kind of analogues .... And "Poseidonishche"? That's where the power is!! Give them GLONASS, decadents .....
  32. usm5
    usm5 19 September 2022 20: 25
    -2
    High-precision weapons are technical means for "fraer" wars with the Papuans. It is pointless to fight with such an adversary as NATO with conventional weapons, and it is even more pointless to organize a long arms race. We will be left without "trousers" and fall apart like the USSR. It must be understood that the United States will not calm down until they "undermine" Russia. Therefore, there are two main options. The first is to surrender to the mercy of the winner. The second is to defeat NATO and their closest allies with a global one-time strike of strategic weapons. To the democratic question: "What does the people want?" -can answer a referendum. For those who doubt the true purpose of NATO, there are two tests to start with. The first is to break off diplomatic relations with the main opponents. They continue to be impudent - to disable the satellite constellation used for target designation. It didn't sober. So war is inevitable and we must strike first.
  33. Vladimir Dmitrievich Burtsev
    Vladimir Dmitrievich Burtsev 23 September 2022 17: 50
    0
    Guided munitions are needed for pinpoint strikes. And when you need to deliver a powerful blow to large concentrations of enemy units or powerful fortified areas, strikes by MLRS forces and bombing strikes by strategic aviation air forces are more effective there. Tu-95 flew near Kharkov and flew away. One bombing strike by strategic aviation aircraft is capable of wiping out a large railway junction or up to 2-3 kilometers of fortified capital defensive objects of the enemy. THOSE. capable of making a corridor in half an hour to break through the Bandera defense line in the Donbass. In the Donbass, it is necessary not to squeeze out, but to cut off and thus liberate the territories occupied by Bandera. How many years will you squeeze Bandera out of Donbass?! Tired though!