Machine gun "Chauchat" - the failure of the war

145
Machine gun "Chauchat" - the failure of the war
"Group of a special platoon" of the school of junior command personnel of the 11th separate engineer battalion with a Shosh machine gun. Smolensk, 1926


“The gun can fire at a speed of two hundred rounds per minute, and it correlates with other types of firearms. weapons in the same way that McCormack's reaping machine is related to a sickle, or a sewing machine to an ordinary needle. A few men armed with such a weapon can do the work of a regiment."
Richard Gatling

Weapon stories. Why some types of weapons are successful, while others are not, although in theory there should be nothing wrong with them. Nevertheless, weapons are known that have earned a very bad reputation, although they were produced in hundreds of thousands of copies. And in the first place among such losers is the French Shosh or Chauchat light machine gun, as the Americans called it. The reason for such a strange double name is that the head of the commission that worked on this machine gun was Colonel Chauchat (whose name in French is read as “Shosha” or “Shosh”, but can also be spelled!).



And it so happened that back in 1903, the French government, having made sure that one way or another, but the country's army already had a suitable rifle-caliber easel machine gun, thought about having a light infantry machine gun in addition to a heavy machine gun. From the numerous examples of automatic weapons taken for study, the French army council became interested in an extremely light automatic rifle that could fire both single shots and fully automatic, and be carried by a soldier, like a standard infantry rifle. It was the rifle of Colonel Shosh, which he offered in 1907 and 1913, however, without much success. There was interest, but there was no success? Yes, that's right, and all because the French military was frightened by too much ammunition consumption. Therefore, the case with an automatic rifle did not actually move from its place.


FM CSRG 15 (i.e. 1915). Photo armesfrancaises.free.fr

But the epiphany came only when the war had already begun and showed what weapons the French soldiers urgently needed. A commission was created, which was supposed to urgently create such a machine gun. It included Shosh himself, the designers Sutte and Riberol, as well as the Gladiator company. That is why the machine gun was produced under the abbreviation CSRG, according to the first letters of Chauchat, Suttere, Ribeyrole & Gladiator.


"Chowchat" 1915 (produced in 1917) from the Royal Arsenal in Leeds

As a basis, they took a rifle with a 20-round magazine, which acted by the force of the recoil of its barrel during its long stroke, the Hungarian designer Rudolf Frommer, who even before the war tested it in Switzerland. It was slightly modified and in 1915, already as a light machine gun, it was hastily put into production and put into service.


Sector magazine for a machine gun. It was designed for 20 rounds. But experienced soldiers recommended filling it with no more than 17-18 rounds of ammunition in order to eliminate delays due to the fault of the store. Photo armesfrancaises.free.fr

The military usually advocates a weapon that is simple in design - it is easier to master, easier to use, and it breaks less; manufacturers also love it, and it’s understandable why - it’s easier to produce. So "Shosh" turned out to be a godsend for both those and others. The body of the machine gun from the butt plate to the flame arrester was a pipe. Or rather, two pipes inserted one into the other. The machine gun handle did not even have a semblance of a pistol grip, but was a rectangular piece of wood screwed onto a frame and a stamped trigger guard.


Inside them was a ribbed barrel connected to the bolt carrier. Inside the bolt carrier there was a bolt, the head of which rotated and locked the barrel with its protrusions at the time of the shot. The bolt rod passed through a hole in the bolt carrier. A bolt spring was put on it. In turn, the spring of the bolt frame and barrel was put on the same rod with a spring. Photo armesfrancaises.free.fr


When fired, powder gases pressed on the muzzle of the barrel and forced the barrel, along with the bolt carrier and bolt, to move back. In this case, the shutter fell on the protrusion of the sear and was held in the rear position. Photo armesfrancaises.free.fr


Now the bolt carrier went forward along with the barrel. The shutter continued to be held in place by a sear, but at the same time it turned and disengaged from the barrel. Photo armesfrancaises.free.fr


Pressing the trigger released the sear and the bolt, which went forward, fed the next cartridge from the magazine into the chamber, turned and locked the chamber, after which the drummer pricked the primer and another shot took place. Photo armesfrancaises.free.fr


Two French soldiers with the most modern weapons of that time: the right one with a rifle grenade launcher, the left one with a Chauchat machine gun

To shoot a machine gun, a loaded magazine is inserted between the additional handle and the bipod mount. Its rear end then lifts up until the magazine latch engages, holding it in place. For a single shot, the fire selector from the “S” or “safety” position (“sur” in French) is placed in the “C” or “control” position (“controle” in French). If automatic fire is required, then it is transferred to the “M” position - “machine gun” (“mitrailleuse” in French).


The German soldiers who captured these machine guns as trophies also actively used them! National Archives and Records Administration, Washington

Because both the bolt and barrel roll back a distance greater than the combined length of the case and bullet, this movement is called a "long stroke". Such automation is simple, but has its drawbacks. First of all, as it turned out, its use on the Shosh machine gun limited its rate of fire. A long cycle did not allow more than 250 rounds per minute. Again, this did not upset the military too much, since it reduced the consumption of ammunition, but now the soldiers only had to do what they had to do to fill magazines for the machine gun, and even incomplete ones, since the 20-round ones often jammed. Yes, and the shot itself was, as it were, stretched, because of which the machine gun could move relative to the target ahead of time, and this seriously affected accuracy! And he could well have moved, since the heaviest parts of it moved in this machine gun - the barrel, the bolt frame and the bolt itself.


Like the Americans who entered the war in Europe without their own light machine gun. I had to buy "shoshi" from the French and learn how to shoot it in French on the go ... National Archives and Records Administration, Washington

All sources unanimously note that no more crudely designed and ugly automatic weapon than this machine gun fell into the hands of soldiers, although the Chauchat was cheap to manufacture and easily adapted to mass production. This made it possible to produce it in thousands, and this "mass character" just became the reason for its poor quality. The fact is that when it was decided to release it, contractors from various companies rushed at him like flies on honey.

Government arsenals produced only barrels and bolts, and all other parts were produced by private firms, which often had nothing to do with the production of weapons before. In addition, most of the manufacturing tolerances on its parts were of such a nature that it could be produced anywhere. There was also no interchangeability of parts, as French methods did not require careful checking of every detail. Thus, from the point of view of interchangeability, this machine gun can be considered manually modified.


Chauchat for the US Army. Royal Arsenal, Leeds

Firms used cheap and even often illiquid materials, and even violated the technology of their processing in order to reduce the cost of production, despite the decline in quality. However, even machine guns made according to the standards of state arsenals had many shortcomings. In addition to the above, the machine gun was inconvenient to hold when firing. The location of the curved magazine also created considerable inconvenience when carrying weapons, and the thin bipod was easily bent. True, it weighed less than other light machine guns of that time, but this was where its advantages ended.


American Shosh. Royal Arsenal, Leeds

At the time the United States entered the war, the government contracted with the French to supply enough Shosh machine guns to equip each division as they arrived. While American troops were reading rave reports of production success with the superior Browning machine guns at home, here in Europe they were forced to fight the Chauchat.


Scheme of the Chauchat M1918 machine gun, caliber .30. The new machine gun received a carob magazine for 16 rounds, which further reduced its rate of fire.

In addition, it turned out that the American cartridge is stronger than the French one and therefore has a greater destructive effect on the machine gun, that is, with this cartridge, the Chauchat began to break down even more often.


American soldiers with Chauchat at the front

From December 31, 1917 to April 3, 1918, 37 864 mm machine guns were purchased or converted to .8 caliber, so that nine divisions were armed with them before sailing to Europe. Well, in total, 30 of these machine guns were produced, and ... where and to whom they were then only not supplied.


Sight and hole for ejection of shells. Due to the unfortunate location of the latter, as well as the recoil pad that goes over the butt, the sight and front sight had to be moved to the left. Photo forgottenweapons.com


Here you can clearly see the bolt and the groove with which it turns and locks the barrel. Photo forgottenweapons.com


Fly. Photo forgottenweapons.com

TTX machine gun "Chauchat":
Length: 1070 mm (model without flame arrester)
Length: 1170 mm (model with flame arrester)
Barrel length: 450 mm
Empty weight: 8,87 kg (model without flash hider)
9,5 kg (model with flash hider and magazine opening shutter)
Cartridge weight: 10,45 kg (model with flash hider)
Store capacity: 20 cartridges
Caliber: 8 mm
Ammunition: 8 x 50R called 8mm Lebel
Barrel rifling: 4 on the right with a pitch of 240 mm
Initial speed: 630 m / s
Initial energy: 225 kgm
Rate of Fire: 240 shots / min
Practical rate of fire: 120 rounds / min
Practical firing range: 200 m
Maximum range: 2000 m
Penetration: 50 cm of soil and 40 cm of spruce wood at a distance of 400 m
Penetration: 1mm thick chrome steel plate at 400m
Production: d'Armes de Châtellerault and Manufacture d'Armes de St-Etienne (barrels)
Made copies: from 225 to 000
Period of use: from 1916 to 1940

Some parliamentarians in France attempted to investigate the "Chauche case", referring to the principles of distribution and placement of production orders and control over their execution, but so many politicians and manufacturers were involved in it that this investigation was not successful.


And this is Ian McCollum from "Forgotten weapons" testing "Shosh" with his own hands and ... great smears on targets with it. Well, it also stuffs no more than 17 rounds into the store! Photo forgottenweapons.com
145 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +13
    24 September 2022 06: 02
    In fact, the machine gun is not called "Shosh", but "Shosha" (with an emphasis on the last A), by the name of the inventor, whose name was Louis Chauchat (the French emphasize the last vowel (Paris, not Paris))
    1. +6
      24 September 2022 07: 05
      Uh-huh, “See Paris and die”!!! crying
      At one time, I listened to how the French mangled the word "Yekaterinburg", it has more German than Russian. Moreover, all three languages: Russian, German and French are related and belong to the Indo-European group.
      Yes, what can we blame, even if in the Sverdlovsk region more than half of the inhabitants do not know how to spell and pronounce the names of their settlements. The classic case for the Middle Urals is the spelling of cities: Upper and Lower Sergi through the “soft sign” - Earrings!
      So ShoshA was not the first and last infidel to whose product the rules of the Russian language were applied, “biting off” the letter “A” at the end of the word. Well, they declined that to make life like this - you had to be more talented so that your invention became a "common name"! There are such examples in the national history of weapons: every Maxim machine gun, and the Nanan pistol! I will simply keep silent about the product of M. Kalashnikov.
      Thanks to Vyacheslav Olegovich about "ShoshU", you will break your tongue on these "frogs" !!! wink
      1. +2
        24 September 2022 07: 17
        So ShoshA was not the first and last infidel to whose product the rules of the Russian language were applied, “biting off” the letter “A” at the end of the word.

        The first time I heard about the bitten off letter. Let's remember "Quiet Flows the Don" and Bunchuk -

        - Are you familiar with the machine gun? - I know the systems of Shosh, Berthier, Madsen, Maxim, Hotchkiss, Bergman, Vickers, Lewis, Schwarzlose. - Wow! I'll talk to the regimental commander...


        How did Sholokhov know at the age of 25 about these machine guns, not having served in the army?
        1. +5
          24 September 2022 07: 35
          Quote: Konnick
          How did Sholokhov know at the age of 25 about these machine guns, not having served in the army?

          And at that time there were interesting books and magazines where they wrote about all this. Personally, I have the Science and Technology magazine for 1929 with an article on the history of weapons and their drawings. And in every issue there were such articles, including about machine guns.
          1. +3
            24 September 2022 07: 49
            And at that time there were interesting books and magazines where they wrote about all this.


            Well, yes, in the village of Veshenskaya there was a very rich library, where a 22-year-old boy was a regular reader ...
            This is an excerpt from the first volume of The Quiet Flows the Don, published in 1928, and written 3 years earlier, at the age of 19. Of particular interest is the Berthier machine gun, which was then in service with the Indian army.
            1. +5
              24 September 2022 07: 57
              I don't know about the library in Veshenskaya. But there were sources of information even then. Before Christie's tank had time to go to the USA, this magazine immediately wrote about it and brought a drawing.
        2. +12
          24 September 2022 08: 05
          How did Sholokhov know at the age of 25 about these machine guns, not having served in the army?

          How did my peers at school know the brands of all cars of the late 80s, including foreign ones.
          Sholokhov was an eyewitness to the First World War and the Civil War, at least had the opportunity to ask and read.
          However, the conclusion “about the regiment commander” is essentially “childish”. Later, the author grows up, like his epic Quiet Don.
          Even if you do not discard the “quasi ideas that the author found drafts of a certain white officer”, the novel “Quiet Flows the Don” is the merit of Sholokhov and only Sholokhov, like his Nobel Prize.
          1. +1
            24 September 2022 08: 14
            Sholokhov was an eyewitness to the First World War

            Yes, an eyewitness, born in 1905, from the age of 9 observed the fighting in Galicia, especially followed the 11th cavalry division.
            1. 0
              24 September 2022 14: 00
              ... and he didn't have any relatives, we're city dwellers, sometimes we don't even know the names of the children from our floor.
      2. +4
        24 September 2022 07: 28
        tfu on these "paddling pools" you will break your tongue !!!
        How can one not remember Paris and Ferchampenoise in the Chelyabinsk region!)))
        1. +1
          24 September 2022 13: 05
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          tfu on these "paddling pools" you will break your tongue !!!
          How can one not remember Paris and Ferchampenoise in the Chelyabinsk region!)))

          Here it must be admitted that despite the presence in South Ural Paris of a mini copy of the Ephili Tower, they do not distort its name and humanly emphasize the first vowel.
      3. +4
        24 September 2022 07: 44
        any machine gun "Maxim"

        The machine gun is also correct "Maxim".
        And we are renaming everything. Now, for some reason, they renamed Prince Charles (Charles, Prince of Wales), who became King Charles III (Charles III, pronunciation: /tʃɑːlz/), into King Charles III. wassat
      4. +3
        24 September 2022 08: 38
        ... pistol "Nanan" ...
        It is a belay belay belay strength said good good good
        1. +4
          24 September 2022 09: 31
          Quote: hohol95
          ... pistol "Nanan" ...
          It is a belay belay belay strength said good good good

          You will not believe it, but in the 20s and 30s the philistine perception was such, even in a number of procedural documents. For example, in the protocols of inspection of the scene - "pistol-gun". It cuts the ear today. However, in forensic examination, such nuances are still encountered “a pistol, a revolver type, was submitted for research.
          1. +2
            24 September 2022 11: 11
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            However, in forensic examination, such nuances are still found. “a pistol, type “revolver” is presented for research.
            What is wrong with this sentence?
            1. +2
              24 September 2022 12: 58
              This quote! hi
              However, the pearls in this rejected material were enough for a good page of memoirs.
              By the way - the expert was a guy, not a girl. Perhaps to each his own.
              1. +2
                25 September 2022 22: 49
                As far as I understood, above they paid attention to the fact that there is no error in this phrase.
                The fact is that formally a pistol is a broader name, including the type of revolver.
                According to the definition of GOST 28653-2018, a revolver is “a pistol with a rotating block of chambers or barrels”.

                Although in ordinary speech pistol and revolver are usually distinguished as different types of weapons, formally a revolver is a type of pistol.
      5. +4
        24 September 2022 10: 27
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        See Paris and die

        hi
        The author did not mention the first prototypes
        In the period 1903-1909 a series of 7 prototypes was developed.
        At least one of them had a magazine attached to the top of the receiver.
        Like later on Bren


        Louis Chauchat testing a prototype


        Charles Sutte at the training ground

        Charles Sutter worked for Atelier de Construction de Puteaux (APX)
        This is the state arsenal of the French army.
        It is possible that the development was carried out at the facilities of the arsenal.
        Later, production was established at the Gladiator bicycle factory.
        A strange choice, to be honest.
        1. +2
          24 September 2022 10: 44
          As a basis, they took a rifle with a 20-round magazine, which acted by the force of the recoil of its barrel during its long stroke, the Hungarian designer Rudolf Frommer
          The author: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky


          By the way, Frommer's rifle had a carob magazine.
          Perhaps later it was returned to the design of Shosh.


          Testing the Frommer rifle


          Rudolf Frommer holding a prototype of his rifle

          For Americans, stores from BAR M1918 were used
          The Poles produced under license Browning wz. 1928
          1. +3
            24 September 2022 10: 46
            The design of the Shosha machine gun is based on the decisions of John Browning,
            namely on US659786 patent dated 1900.

            1. +3
              24 September 2022 10: 48
              Video about the Shosh machine gun in Russian
              Channel Feel the Guns GUNSROOM

              1. +3
                24 September 2022 11: 05
                Shop on the German version of the Shosh machine gun
                Apparently, for better retention when shooting "from the hip"
          2. +1
            24 September 2022 11: 14
            They did not return, Rudolf Frommer has nothing to do with Shosha, this is an Internet delusion, he has been walking since the zero years.
          3. +2
            24 September 2022 11: 23
            stores under the American cartridge are completely original,
            Rifle Caliber30 Automatic, Browning M1918. completely different.
            1. +4
              24 September 2022 11: 51
              Quote: irontom
              Browning M1918. completely different.

              I doubt that Wiki contains all the data about BAR, including prototypes.
              It takes weeks, even months, to study any topic.
              In a short article, much remains "behind the scenes".







              1. +3
                24 September 2022 12: 18
                Read sources, and preferably foreign primary sources.
                The American Shosha was designed by the French and produced in France for the American Corps, the machine guns were received upon arrival. The main problem with these machine guns was an error in the drawings of the chamber, hence the large number of delays compared to the French. So the machine gun was quite normal, especially given the wartime.
                1. +4
                  24 September 2022 12: 38
                  Quote: irontom
                  Read sources

                  What's the tone, my dear?
                  You're the only one who can read, right?
                  As I wrote above - it takes weeks to study the topic.

                  We canceled the theme of the original stores for BAR until better times?
              2. 0
                24 September 2022 18: 00
                Hi Michael!
                And what kind of volyn with "bullpup" architecture in the last two photos?
                1. +2
                  24 September 2022 22: 06
                  Quote: 3x3zsave
                  Hi

                  hi
                  This is BAR by bullpup.
                  Apparently, things did not go beyond the experimental sample.

                  Many have experimented
                  The result is the Stoner 63 Bullpup and SA80.
                  By the way, they crossed paths in the mid-60s.
                  Practically relatives
        2. +4
          24 September 2022 15: 11
          Quote: Mister X
          The author did not mention the first prototypes

          It would be necessary, but the volume grows exorbitantly. It becomes not interesting to read for a long time ... Here you have added perfectly and well! I can only say thank you!
    2. IVZ
      0
      25 September 2022 15: 30
      The inventor's name was Louis Chauchat. Absolutely right. But the machine gun in Russia was called "Shosh" with an emphasis on the first syllable.
  2. +2
    24 September 2022 06: 06
    Penetration: 1mm thick chrome steel plate at 400m

    Well, this is not an armored plate, after all, it probably should be thicker, 10 millimeters, after all, the initial bullet speed is 700 m / s, albeit from a short barrel, shorter than that of the Mosin carbine. And not chrome-plated, somehow glamorous, even for the French, but made of chromium steel.
  3. +2
    24 September 2022 06: 15
    The bipod is ugly ... how can the horn withstand American cartridges, how quickly to insert it into the groove, the barrel heats up, you can get burned by grabbing it ... in general, purely French indecency.
    Although the weight of the weapon is decent ... it will be good to hit heads for hand-to-hand combat.
    Photos, as always, are of great interest, and from where only Vyacheslav digs them up. what
    I thank the author for an interesting essay on French weapons. hi
    1. +6
      24 September 2022 07: 24
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      The bipod is ugly ... how can the horn withstand American cartridges, how quickly to insert it into the groove, the barrel heats up, you can get burned by grabbing it ... in general, purely French indecency.
      Although the weight of the weapon is decent ... it will be good to hit heads for hand-to-hand combat.
      Photos, as always, are of great interest, and from where only Vyacheslav digs them up. what
      I thank the author for an interesting essay on French weapons. hi

      Well, let's be objective. Louis Chauchat was one of the "fathers" at that time of the newest type of weapon "light machine gun". Even the name of this type of weapon was not yet. With us, it is not uncommon for this product to appear as a “submachine gun”! The first are always wrong, but they make way for others.
      What can I say if the peers of the first "machine guns" were such "monsters":


      Maxim machine guns on fortress machines.
      Although I prefer Madsen's Danish product.

      However, the best light machine gun of the First World War must be considered the product of Lewis.
      1. +3
        24 September 2022 07: 41
        About him will be... So just wait a bit.
      2. +1
        24 September 2022 16: 48
        Where is Hotchkiss Mle 1909???
        Forgotten, abandoned?
        And they write as many as 540 pieces to Russia!
  4. +4
    24 September 2022 07: 20
    Because both the bolt and barrel roll back a distance greater than the combined length of the case and bullet, this movement is called a "long stroke".

    A long stroke is when the shutter is unlocked with a recoil equal to or greater than the length of the cartridge, and the total recoil always exceeds the length of the bullet and cartridge case, otherwise feeding into the chamber is not possible.
    1. The comment was deleted.
  5. +5
    24 September 2022 07: 25
    Good morning everyone! hi

    I don't understand? fuck the Americans it took this junk

    when they already had in production John Browning's magnificent typewriter - BAR 1918
    /
    1. +7
      24 September 2022 07: 39
      Quote: Sea Cat
      John Browning's magnificent typewriter -- BAR 1918

      So after all, they didn’t have a “mass replicator” from SF novels! What's the point that she "stood". It was necessary to establish mass production, part by part, teach, prepare spare parts. All this is not a matter of a day or a month. So - we take what is already there, even if it's crap! It's better to shoot out of shit than not to shoot at all.
      1. +4
        24 September 2022 07: 48
        Hi, Vyacheslav! hi

        It's better to shoot out of shit than not to shoot at all.


        I'm judging from my own experience, it's better not to shoot at all than to shoot shit. Those. throw shit out and fight with an ordinary rifle, there is less chance of dying when the miracle of the weapons genius "Shosh" jams again at the most inopportune moment.
        1. +3
          24 September 2022 07: 59
          Quote: Sea Cat
          I'm judging from my own experience, it's better not to shoot at all than to shoot shit.

          Good morning! Our experience with you, Konstantin, means nothing compared to those who are "above".
          1. +4
            24 September 2022 08: 34
            compared to those at the top.


            I doubt very much that "those at the top" have any experience at all related to military service, not to mention real combat experience. wink
        2. +4
          24 September 2022 09: 14
          Canadian foot soldiers might have agreed with you, Konstantin. But being on the front line and repelling the attacks of the Teutons, they did not want to be left empty-handed!
          1. +1
            24 September 2022 10: 10
            ... they did not want to be left empty-handed!


            Well, it's their own, Canadian business. laughing
            1. +4
              24 September 2022 10: 34
              It's just that their Rosa rifles turned out to be the most "suitable" for parades and shooting competitions, but they turned out to be the most "unsuitable" for high-intensity combat operations.
      2. +2
        24 September 2022 14: 50
        Quote: kalibr
        So - we take what is already there, even if it's crap! It's better to shoot shit than not shoot at all

        The Americans appreciated this machine gun;
        " More crudely designed and ugly automatic weapons never found their way into the hands of soldiers, which were cheap to make and easily adapted to mass production methods, but manufacturing tolerances were such that anything could be obtained......... ... The handle looked like a pistol grip, being just a rectangular piece of wood screwed to the body. Because of the recoil, it was difficult to keep the target, so the shooting was very inaccurate ........ It should be noted that this is incomparably the worst machine gun in its class, which was used by any belligerent in the First World War."
    2. +4
      24 September 2022 07: 40
      Elementary, uncle!
      The USA entered WWI on April 6, 1917, and the Browning automatic rifle was adopted a year later, as noted in the abbreviation.
      1. +3
        24 September 2022 07: 43
        Anton, hello, you have a typo - 1917.
        1. +2
          24 September 2022 07: 51
          Hi Uncle Kostya!
          Corrected, thanks!
      2. +1
        24 September 2022 07: 55
        The USA entered WWI on April 6, 1914

        Actually, in 1917, April 6th.
        1. +3
          24 September 2022 07: 58
          Actually, yes. But, as you can see, I have already corrected the typo.
          1. +2
            24 September 2022 08: 03
            We accept, I also drew attention to Browning, born in 1918.
    3. +1
      24 September 2022 09: 16
      And the Russians had a Fedorov automatic rifle ...
      But for some reason, the Russians asked the Allies for light machine guns.
      1. +3
        24 September 2022 09: 39
        Quote: hohol95
        And the Russians had a Fedorov automatic rifle ...
        But for some reason, the Russians asked the Allies for light machine guns.

        The Fedorov rifle is still a slightly different subclass of weapons. The same Fedorov, heading the plant for the production of domestic Madsenov, did not put his rifle on the conveyor in the original version. However, in the end, the story settled on the Tokarev light machine gun.
        1. +2
          24 September 2022 10: 14
          Hello, hello!
          , in the end, the story settled on the Tokarev light machine gun.


          Vlad, and you, by chance, did not mean Degtyarev. Tokarev did not have machine guns, there was only a prototype submachine gun of 1927 chambered for Nagant and Mauser.

          1. +3
            24 September 2022 10: 38
            MT "Maxim-Tokarev". The first Soviet light machine gun.
          2. +4
            24 September 2022 11: 02
            There was a Maxim-Tokarev MT-25 light machine gun
            1. +3
              24 September 2022 11: 21
              Well, we are not talking about mass production here, a temporary way out, as unnecessary, they were then merged to Spain, if I'm not mistaken.
              1. +2
                24 September 2022 11: 33
                about 2500 barrels were produced, so a big series, the DP-27 just appeared.
                1. +3
                  24 September 2022 11: 40
                  I know how many of them were released, but this is a series, not mass production. DP, of course, is not a masterpiece, but in any case it is better than this monstrous Tokarev compilation.
                  1. +4
                    24 September 2022 11: 47
                    For WWI MT would be perfect!
                    The Germans themselves built MG08/15, MG08/18!
                    From the lack of "handbrakes".
                    And such a "handbrake" in Russia could be mastered faster than they would have set up the production of "Madsenov".
                    1. +4
                      24 September 2022 11: 49
                      For WWI MT would be perfect!


                      No, I understand that generals are always preparing for the last war, but so that gunsmiths...
                      1. +6
                        24 September 2022 13: 05
                        In the RSFSR in 1925 there was a choice ???
                        Old "Lewis" are worn out and without spare parts and cartridges!
                        Or go or checkers ...
                        DP is still in development, and World Imperialism is on the alert!
                        How to arm the troops???
                        Armored cars in the Red Army appeared before the domestic tank.
                        Necessary measure. Faster developed, faster put on the conveyor !!!
                        They began to fill the troops with domestic armored vehicles faster.
                        Did the Americans create a modern "handbrake" by 1941?
                        No. So they ran with BAR and dragged easel "Brownings".
                        The French also "chewed discharge from the nose" and could not properly rearm the army.
                      2. +5
                        24 September 2022 13: 57
                        and dragged easel "Brownings".


                        They are still carrying them. Maybe because the machine gun is very successful? wink
                      3. +2
                        24 September 2022 14: 27
                        Or maybe they can't create a replacement for him...
                      4. +4
                        24 September 2022 14: 54
                        That is unlikely. smile Slightly modernized, the Browning system is still walking around the world to this day, and it suits everyone perfectly. If there was a need, they would find a replacement.
                      5. +4
                        24 September 2022 15: 33
                        But they made as many as 3 models of disposable pistols.
                        The first model was "sowed" over Europe in World War II for 5 "Baku", the other was "sowed" over Vietnam, the third was recently "made" for 120 "green" pieces.
                      6. +4
                        24 September 2022 15: 37
                        Do you have money, do you need to spend it somewhere? Here they suffer. laughing
                      7. +3
                        24 September 2022 17: 05
                        Quote: hohol95
                        But they made as many as 3 models of disposable pistols.
                        The first model was "sowed" over Europe in World War II for 5 "Baku", the other was "sowed" over Vietnam, the third was recently "made" for 120 "green" pieces.

                        A bad head does not give rest to the legs. They themselves blocked the sale of our domestic PM "Makarov" in their market! Now they wouldn’t suffer with scarecrows, but they would have, albeit not a modern, but arch-reliable 8-shot pistol. fellow
                      8. +3
                        24 September 2022 17: 02
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        and dragged easel "Brownings".


                        They are still carrying them. Maybe because the machine gun is very successful? wink

                        Probably more reliable!
                        We also use Kalashnikov.
                        By the way, M2 is indeed an icon of "heavier". We have already mastered the third in the Kord line, and they “pray” for a hundred-year-old old man.
                      9. +4
                        24 September 2022 16: 58
                        Quote: hohol95
                        In the RSFSR in 1925 there was a choice ???
                        Old "Lewis" are worn out and without spare parts and cartridges!
                        Or go or checkers ...

                        If you look objectively, Fedorov in 1925-1927 offered a line of automatic weapons that were conceptually ahead of their time. In at least two parameters, unification and a promising 6,5mm caliber with a flangeless sleeve.

                        Even the first T-18 tanks received Fedorov machine guns, but the poverty of the young Soviet state summed it up. By the way, we are still fighting with a cartridge from the good old Mosinka.

                        DP is still in development, and World Imperialism is on the alert!
                        How to arm the troops???

                        Lewis went to the last fight in the formidable 41st.

                        Armored cars in the Red Army appeared before the domestic tank.
                        Necessary measure. Faster developed, faster put on the conveyor !!!
                        They began to fill the troops with domestic armored vehicles faster.

                        Austin-Putilovets even received a semi-official name - "half-tank". In Poland, it was referred to as a "Russian type" tank.

                        Did the Americans create a modern "handbrake" by 1941?
                        No. So they ran with BAR and dragged easel "Brownings".
                        The French also "chewed discharge from the nose" and could not properly rearm the army.

                        I just want to write if the war delayed. The USSR in 1941 was very close to saturating the Red Army with SVT self-loading rifles. It was the war that forced us to abandon its production and return to Mosinka. A similar reason led to the abandonment of the DS-39, which in peacetime would have been brought to mind anyway. The old Maxim returned to the container.
                      10. +5
                        24 September 2022 17: 20
                        It's good to be rich and healthy...
                        In addition to the "Lewis", they raked out everything that could shoot from the bins of the motherland. From the Browning Potato Digger to the French Lebels.
                        In Leningrad, old 47mm shells from naval guns were re-sharpened for use in infantry and tank "forty-five" shots.
                        If not for the war ...
              2. 0
                24 September 2022 21: 57
                You are mistaken, the bulk went to China in the 38th. And the Chinese even put them into production at home.
                The network walks that the release amounted to 2500 pieces, but there is a reasonable version, which is many times more.
                So the circulation is comparable to the Tokarevsky carbine, but no, no, yes, they flicker in pre-war films and early chronicles.
                1. +2
                  25 September 2022 09: 08
                  About 1500 MT were delivered to China at the same time as 5600 DP-27s; talking about the production of such complex weapons in China in the 30-40s is at least not serious.
                  1. 0
                    2 October 2022 13: 43
                    Oh really?
                    That is, they mastered such a milled cuckoo clock as the Mauser C96 with a file, the design of Hiram's grandfather - with him, with a file - was turned, but could not a simpler MT based on motives? A nation whose national idea is direct copying with improvised means and regardless of man-hours?
                    Well, well.
                    1. +1
                      2 October 2022 14: 18
                      Oh really?


                      Yes indeed. laughing
                      Did you try to shoot from Chinese samples of that time? I'm sure not. But in the presence of not the most developed imagination, it is not difficult to imagine the work of the automation of a machine gun assembled on the knee with the help of a rasp and a sledgehammer.
          3. +3
            24 September 2022 13: 09
            Yes, Konstantin - described himself.
            Tokarev experimented with a light machine gun based on the Maxim.
            However, it must be admitted that at one time Degtyarev acted extremely “humanly” with Gryunov and Kalashnikov.
            1. +1
              25 September 2022 09: 46
              probably all the same Goryunov. Check what you write.
        2. +3
          24 September 2022 10: 40
          What prevented our gunsmiths from creating an analogue of MT back in World War I?
          1. +2
            24 September 2022 22: 03
            Yes, as usual; materiel and bureaucracy.
            They relied on Madsen, since the Danish princesses are the traditional wives of the Romanovs.
            But, not shmogli, and then - Civil.
            By the way, the same rake as in the case of the MT-26 two decades later came already with the RP-46. There is no mobility: the box is not attached to the machine gun in any way, the cartridge case is thrown down. So the change of the illuminated position is due to the efforts of two numbers, and at this moment the machine gun is not very suitable for firing, since by this moment the tape has been removed from it for mobility.
      2. +3
        24 September 2022 10: 15
        But for some reason, the Russians asked the Allies for light machine guns.


        Maybe because Lewis and the old man Madsen were still more reliable than the Fedorov assault rifle?
        1. +5
          24 September 2022 10: 37
          May be!
          Or perhaps it was the inability to mass-produce Fedorov rifles and the inability of domestic designers to build a handbrake of the MT type from the easel "Maxim".
          1. +2
            24 September 2022 22: 05
            But nothing that even the Germans didn’t master the handbrake from the machine tool right away?
            And it turned out to be a real cadaver.
            1. +1
              25 September 2022 09: 43
              They didn't have a choice!
              In Russia, even such a "cadaver" was not made.
              And they didn’t put any other model on the conveyor.
        2. +3
          24 September 2022 15: 34
          And maybe it all rested on production capabilities?
          1. +5
            24 September 2022 15: 38
            And maybe it all rested on production capabilities?


            And this is most likely!

            "To build a tram - not to buy a donkey!" (C)
            1. +4
              24 September 2022 15: 54
              "Konka owners, private and joint-stock companies, who at one time received the rights to build "horse-drawn railways", prevented the spread of electric transport. The law of the Russian Empire was on their side, and the documents in their hands said that the city government in cannot use any other mode of transport on the streets for fifty years without the consent of the owners of the horse-drawn tram."
              https://naukam.ucoz.ru/publ/istoricheskie/tramvaj_v_rossii/6-1-0-65
              1. +4
                24 September 2022 16: 08
                This is how we regularly get into the dupa, both in those times and in these. negative
                1. +3
                  24 September 2022 16: 22
                  If our country were the size of Monaco or Luxembourg...
                  Would live like "hard cheeses in soft butter"!
                  And so all the troubles from the "size" ...
                  1. +3
                    24 September 2022 16: 51
                    "Our land is plentiful, there is no order like no" (c) request
                2. +3
                  24 September 2022 16: 28
                  This is how we regularly get into the dupa, both in those times and in these.

                  Transport reform in St. Petersburg...
                  1. +2
                    24 September 2022 16: 52
                    You are still lucky that Sabyanin occupied Moscow. bully
                    1. +5
                      24 September 2022 16: 56
                      We have enough Beglov for the most do not indulge.
                    2. +3
                      24 September 2022 17: 35
                      Quote: Sea Cat
                      You are still lucky that Sabyanin occupied Moscow. bully

                      Quote: 3x3zsave
                      We have enough Beglov for the most do not indulge.

                      At least your scope is there, but ours. Either he fights with fences, then ... However, fences get their name in honor of "cowards ..." wassat
                      Change without looking? laughing
                      1. +3
                        24 September 2022 17: 39
                        Change without looking?


                        In Fig - an awl for soap. stop
                      2. +3
                        24 September 2022 18: 07
                        It fights with fences
                        We do not fight with fences, our mayors dearly love them. It stood at the Moscow railway station for 10 years, now it has been standing on Okhta for 10 years.
                        And yes, I haven’t described the New Year’s “garbage reform” yet, but Shnur told about it best of all.
                    3. +2
                      24 September 2022 18: 18
                      Quote: Sea Cat
                      You are still lucky that Sabyanin occupied Moscow.

                      Before Moscow, Sobyanin was a leader in Tyumen. When Putin transferred him to Moscow, the Tyumen people were very indignant that such an efficient and businesslike leader was transferred to the center. Sobyanin is not hated for his policy against local arbitrariness. In Tyumen, he put the media under state control, reduced many bureaucratic positions and dramatically increased the budget of the Tyumen region. In Moscow, under him, public transport developed rapidly, the ugly stalls-legacy of Luzhkov and Gaidar disappeared from the streets, and Moscow began to turn into a city with normal architecture from a market Shanghaichik, as Luzhkov made it ..
                      1. +2
                        24 September 2022 18: 51
                        Moscow began to turn into a city with normal architecture from a market shanghaichik,

                        Yeah, in a word, a solid BORDER and complete nonsense. laughing
                      2. +1
                        24 September 2022 20: 49
                        Tyumen and Moscow, far from being subsidized cities, in terms of the filling of the budget capsule.
                        Now, if Sobyanin showed himself somewhere in Makhachkala or Kopeysk, then the attitude would be different.
                      3. +1
                        24 September 2022 23: 10
                        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                        Now, if Sobyanin showed himself somewhere in Makhachkala or Kopeysk,

                        Makhachkala is located in a warmer climate zone. It's much easier to build there. Tax collection in Tyumen has increased tenfold. If in Makhachkala the local government increased the budget filling rate three times and used these funds wisely, it would make Makhachkala incomparably better and richer than Tyumen in terms of improvement. I was in the Circassian village Ulyap. The locals reproached the Russian Muscovites for their lack of advancement and lack of understanding of the convenience of living with a family in a spacious 10-storey house of 2 rooms instead of five-wall huts ..
                      4. +1
                        24 September 2022 21: 23
                        In Moscow, under him, public transport developed rapidly,
                        Are you talking about the liquidation of the trolleybus fleet?
                      5. +2
                        24 September 2022 23: 03
                        Quote: Aviator_
                        Are you talking about the liquidation of the trolleybus fleet?

                        Trolleybuses have been replaced by battery-powered electric vehicles. Now, in the event of an accident of one trolleybus, the movement along the line does not stop. Introduced MCC, two MCD, a lot of metro lines. According to rough sensations, the length of the Moscow metro has increased one and a half times. That is, the construction of the metro and similar transport is proceeding at a faster pace than under any other government. Electric trains have become more frequent. Compared even to the Soviet period, public transport in Moscow has become freer.
          2. +3
            24 September 2022 17: 07
            Quote: hohol95
            And maybe it all rested on production capabilities?

            The truth is somewhere in the middle. Just remember that Maxim was mastered in Tula for almost 10 years!!!
            1. +2
              24 September 2022 17: 56
              And they didn't make pistols!
              And they didn't design it.
      3. +3
        24 September 2022 11: 10
        It wasn’t, there was an experimental batch converted from a pre-war author. rifles 6.5 mm, 8 pcs. 6,5-mm machine guns (automatic) with magazines for 15 rounds in a special company of the Izmailovsky regiment, and if my memory serves me, a couple of pieces fell into aviation.
        It's all.
        The rest of the AF modified by Fedorov for 25 rounds with a handle in front of the magazine, which we know, were released in Kovrov after the revolution.
  6. +4
    24 September 2022 07: 42
    For such a characteristic look of the ugly sector magazine, which was also the cause of a considerable number of delays, we must "thank" the 8x50R Lebel cartridge, which has a much higher taper than the well-known 7.62x54R. If you look at the picture of the same machine gun chambered for the American .30-06 Springfield cartridge, then the magazine looks unremarkable, except that it is a bit short for a machine gun.
    Of course, in 1887 this cartridge was revolutionary, after all, the first ever cartridge for smokeless powder. But by 1914 it was clearly outdated, as was the rifle made for it, with an underbarrel tubular magazine, IMHO the worst of all the mass-produced rifles of the First World War. And the French fought with these rifles in World War II; however, the "success" of French weapons in that war went down in history.
  7. +3
    24 September 2022 07: 53
    And in the first place among such losers is the French Shosh or Chauchat light machine gun, as the Americans called it. The reason for such a strange double name is that the head of the commission that worked on this machine gun was Colonel Chauchat (whose name in French is read as “Shosha” or “Shosh”, but can also be spelled!).

    And again we are present at the birth of another urban legend from this author! Direct generator of "urban legends". This time about "chauchat". In fact, in English it is read "show-sha", because according to the rules of the English language in words that came from French, there are nine of them, if my memory serves me right, as well as in French surnames, the letter combination "ch" is read and pronounced just like in French - like "w".
    1. +2
      24 September 2022 08: 05
      I don't care what the "rules" are. For the mass reader, what matters is how "accepted". I did not come up with the name "chauchat", it is massively found in a wide variety of literature. According to the rules, there can be no William the Conqueror and the city of Rome, but they are!
      1. +3
        24 September 2022 08: 38
        Pralno, Olegych - not a fig!

        "Connoisseurs, it is necessary to kill such experts!" (C) am

        1. +2
          24 September 2022 15: 05
          Quote: Sea Cat
          "Connoisseurs, it is necessary to kill such experts!" (C)

          It's just that I, Konstantin, do not see the point in giving references to literature in popular materials. This is not Wikipedia, where there are three references to one fact. If anyone is interested, take a look and see for yourself. And for those who are just interested in reading for general development - and this is quite enough. I'm not talking about volume. 14 thousand characters - the limit for assimilation. That is, all "creativity" lies in the range from 8 to 14.
          1. +3
            24 September 2022 15: 12
            Yes, everything is fine, just for some colleagues, instead of a banal show off, you just need to upload interesting materials, which, by the way, most do. And you don’t need to kick the author of a great mind - easily and in between times, but to make an interesting article yourself, here, excuse me, "Zarathustra does not allow." request
      2. +8
        24 September 2022 09: 06
        You, dear, write nonsense. Because it is not customary to distort words anywhere, unless of course there are defects in the speech apparatus. And in "the most diverse literature" and not so at the suggestion of such writers is found. By the way, with the history of the machine gun, you also tore a fable from "a wide variety of literature".
        As a basis, they took a rifle with a 20-round magazine, which acted by the force of the recoil of its barrel during its long stroke, the Hungarian designer Rudolf Frommer, who even before the war tested it in Switzerland. It was slightly modified and in 1915, already as a light machine gun, it was hastily put into production and put into service.

        Frommer's rifle was not created until 1908, and Shosh began to design his rifle, the CHAUCHAT-SUTTER MACHINE RIFLE, which was taken as the basis for the Fusil Mitrailleur Modele 1915 CSRG, in 1903.
        The Shosh rifle CHAUCHAT-SUTTER MACHINE RIFLE looked like this.

        At the beginning of the First World War, these rifles were used in limited quantities, including for arming aircraft.

        It was on the basis of this rifle that they created a machine gun.
        So do not take the second position, it is better to listen to constructive criticism regarding your work, replete with blunders from "a wide variety of literature."
        1. +4
          24 September 2022 10: 55
          To clarify, in the photo 8 mm Lebel CS (Chauchat-Sutter) arr. 11th. which were issued in the amount of 100 pieces. 13-14 years old. one barrel is preserved in the museum.
          1. +4
            24 September 2022 11: 05
            Yes you are right. Unfortunately, I have not yet found a photo of earlier samples, including those chambered for 7x59 mm Shosh. You have to dig into the books.
            1. +3
              24 September 2022 11: 28
              the most interesting butt and handle of these rifles were made of aluminum.
              1. +3
                24 September 2022 11: 54
                Found an interesting photo. It turns out that the Germans converted the captured Modele 1915 CSRG to their cartridge and successfully used it. Maybe the machine gun was not as bad as it is customary to write about it?
                1. +2
                  24 September 2022 22: 10
                  No, the simplicity of the Germans with handbrakes was even sadder than ours.
        2. 0
          24 September 2022 14: 28
          Do you think I haven't seen these photos? It's news to me too. And as for constructive criticism ... It was not from you. Criticism yes, but I usually just spit on it. Like this: ugh and all!
        3. +1
          24 September 2022 14: 42
          Quote from Nephilim
          "Various Literature"

          Where do you get information from? Not from literature? And why is your literature more true than mine? Or is the spirit of Shosh himself whispering to you?
        4. -2
          24 September 2022 14: 59
          Quote from Nephilim
          Frommer's rifle was not created until 1908, and Shosh began to design his rifle, the CHAUCHAT-SUTTER MACHINE RIFLE, which was taken as the basis for the Fusil Mitrailleur Modele 1915 CSRG, in 1903.

          Plotnikov S.E. - senior researcher at TsMVS, worked for more than 35 years, it is written that Louis Chauchat developed a machine gun in 1907. The Frommer rifle was created around 1908. So Shosha could be familiar with her, why not. As you can see, the point of view depends on the source of information. I have no reason not to trust Plotnikov, but you do. Are you the author of how many articles and books on weapons?
          1. +3
            24 September 2022 17: 25
            Like this: ugh and all!

            What a highly cultured comment? Are you from Penza?
            Where do you get information from? Not from literature? And why is your literature more true than mine?

            Of course, from literature. Only we have different literature. You rewrite articles from the Internet, which are often rewritten in the third round and contain a lot of errors. I use literature, which in some circles is called "original sources".
            Plotnikov S.E. - senior researcher at TsMVS, worked for more than 35 years, it is written that Louis Chauchat developed a machine gun in 1907. The Frommer rifle was created around 1908.

            With regard to the history of French weapons, Plotnikov is not an authority. You may not trust me, but the Connaissance de l'histoire mensuel magazine or The Chauchat Machine Rifle monograph can. Shosh began working on his design in 1903, when there was no Frommer rifle. But Browning has already introduced the principle of automation - recoil with a long stroke of the barrel (FN / Browning Auto-5).
            Are you the author of how many articles and books on weapons?

            I've been waiting for this crown question of yours. I have enough articles, and not only on weapons topics. But the presence of publications is by no means an indicator of the level of knowledge in any issue. And it happens that a person writes a whole encyclopedia about samurai, but he has no idea how chebako timae differs from hakobi timae.
            1. -2
              24 September 2022 17: 58
              Quote from Nephilim
              I have enough articles, and not only on weapons topics.

              That's lovely! But why immediately CROWN QUESTION? You can find out about me on the Internet, but I don’t know anything about you, and I don’t like to communicate with the shadow. At least something ... And since you have a lot of interesting materials, share them with VO. Everyone will just say thank you.
              Quote from Nephilim
              what is the difference between chebako timae and hakobi timae - he has no idea.

              And is it fundamental? It seems to me that no. And the book didn't get worse. And here’s what’s strange - I don’t know, but a book about samurai came out, and the Institute of Oriental Studies was the reviewer and gave the go-ahead and another grant from the Russian Humanitarian Foundation, that’s even how. Unfair, right? You, now, you know ... what's the point? What happened to you?
              Yes, from Penza, so what? And as for culture... Thank God I belong to the 4th generation of citizens and people with education, so even if I send someone obscene and knock out my nose with two fingers, my culture will not decrease.
              1. +4
                24 September 2022 18: 21
                Thank God I belong to the 4th generation of citizens and people with education

                You know, Kroeber and Kluckhohn counted about three hundred definitions of the concept of culture. But in no place of residence and educational qualifications are factors determining whether a cultured person or above a cultured person has risen.
                1. -2
                  24 September 2022 19: 19
                  I don’t give a shit about them and their calculations, frankly! But you did not answer: what can I read from you? And why, having such a high level of awareness, do you not give a share to VO readers? It is clear that since you do not respect them, then ... yes ... how to share with such people. But still ... Show us all an example, so to speak, of online journalism on a military topic.
                  1. +3
                    24 September 2022 19: 54
                    I don’t give a shit about them and their calculations, frankly!

                    Bravo, bravissimo!!! This is what I understand - the answer of a city dweller in the fourth generation and a candidate of historical sciences! Where are the uncultured peasants.
                    But anyway...

                    None anyway.
                  2. 0
                    25 September 2022 07: 11
                    Quote: kalibr
                    Show us all an example of, so to speak, online journalism on a military topic.

                    And I understand there will be no answer to this?
            2. 0
              24 September 2022 18: 14
              Quote from Nephilim
              monographs The Chauchat Machine Rifle

              Can! But for a popular article, shoveling $198,00 monographs is who you have to be? And there is no electronic version on the Internet, I looked when I was selecting material for the article. This book was published in Canada in 1995 and is available on Amazon. There is, but not about our honor, in any case, I can't afford it.
              1. +1
                24 September 2022 18: 48
                $200 is not such a big amount if a person is really interested in any issue. It could be easier to do. Contact a friend in France who has the information you need. And no costs.
                1. -1
                  24 September 2022 19: 14
                  Quote from Nephilim
                  $200 is not such a big amount if a person is really interested in any issue. It could be easier to do. Contact a friend in France who has the information you need. And no costs.

                  Did you write this drunk or foolishly? Or maybe you have an oil rig near your house? I live on a pension of 14,500 r. 200 bucks for 223 pages of paper - it's crazy! I don't have any friends in France. I do not speak French. And besides, I don’t have the habit of straining my friends or acquaintances with my needs. I think it's not pretty.
                  1. +1
                    24 September 2022 19: 47
                    Did you write this drunk or foolishly?
                    Again kultureshka flooded?
                    200 bucks for 223 pages of paper - it's crazy!

                    It all depends on the subject matter. The artist Arkhip Kuindzhi lived on perfect crumbs with huge incomes. Almost all the money was spent on talented students. Do you think you're crazy?
                    And besides, I don’t have the habit of straining my friends or acquaintances with my needs. I think it's not pretty.

                    Yes, with friends you, apparently, are not very good.
                    1. +1
                      25 September 2022 07: 13
                      Quote from Nephilim
                      Not really.

                      Precisely very much, but my attitude towards them is not consumerist.
                    2. +1
                      25 September 2022 07: 14
                      Quote from Nephilim
                      Artist Arkhip Kuindzhi lived on perfect crumbs with huge incomes

                      I don't have huge income. Nothing to waste...
  8. +1
    24 September 2022 16: 51
    Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    Will there be an article about Hotchkiss Mle 1909?
    And then the satya on VO from 2012 is clearly outdated!
    "Shosha" put into production
    due to difficulties with the production of other types of machine guns!
    1. +1
      24 September 2022 17: 40
      And by the way, it would be interesting for me to read about the volyn, which is in the hand of the right soldier. T-Gewehre" M.1918
      1. +2
        24 September 2022 18: 01
        This article is not about the Teutonic "armor killer", but I think it will be interesting.
        warspot.ru
        "The most secret weapon of the Second Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth"
        Andrey Kharuk Feb 01 '18
        1. +1
          24 September 2022 18: 15
          Thank you Alexey!
          I'll see for sure.
      2. +2
        24 September 2022 18: 05
        There is material about T-gever. And I think there are some interesting photos. Will have to try. While I'm busy - Michael ordered Warwick Castle - I'm sitting over it.
        1. +2
          24 September 2022 18: 19
          While I'm busy - Michael ordered Warwick Castle - I'm sitting over it.
          Class !!!
          Although I would prefer the French. Just think: there are 4969 castles of varying degrees of preservation in France! And about the same number is known only from written sources.
          1. +1
            24 September 2022 19: 25
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            Although I would prefer the French.

            Eh, I didn’t want to write, I wanted to keep a secret, but if so. There will be a French castle for you, Anton. I have already found one ... I am preparing materials for an article about him.
            1. +1
              24 September 2022 19: 32
              With pleasure I will "walk" through your material in the comments)))
              1. +1
                24 September 2022 19: 41
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                "go through" your material

                I hope...
      3. +1
        24 September 2022 18: 20
        Two "Imperial stormtroopers" on the left have captured and re-barreled under 7,92mm "Shoshiki".
        1. +1
          24 September 2022 18: 26
          It is clear what the signature was about, but I was interested in the "elephant man".
    2. +2
      24 September 2022 18: 03
      Quote: hohol95
      Will there be an article about Hotchkiss Mle 1909?
      And then the satya on VO from 2012 is clearly outdated!

      I honestly didn't plan. But ... I agree with you, Alexey. Will have to see what can be done!
    3. +1
      24 September 2022 18: 28
      Quote: hohol95
      about Hotchkiss Mle 1909?

      Alexei! I found very interesting material about this machine gun - there will be an article.