Gun with radial guides. "Russian arc" against stereotypes. Innovation and reality

114


foreword


"There are no analogues!" - so they usually say when it comes to something completely new and progressive.



In a previous article “Pistol concept. A look from a new perspective"acquainting readers with a completely new principle of pistol design - radial valve guides (RNZ), it was said just the opposite - there are analogues. Active! And a lot...

And on the basis of the above analogues, in the most understandable form - by the "method of analogies" - it was intelligibly and convincingly shown that this paradoxical and extremely simple principle, which provides no less significant superiority over all classic pistols, is quite feasible and workable.

A pistol, if you consider it not just as a "compact weapon close combat, but as an engineering and technical task, it is a kind of Fermat's theorem in weapons mechanics, a fundamental object for development, on which the edge of design thought is honed to the degree of "razor sharpening".

The totality of conflicting, sometimes mutually exclusive requirements creates a complex, but all the more interesting for the design search, a tangle of problems.

In such "search for breakthrough solutions to problematic technical problems" for the designer, first of all, it comes to the fore developer's main problem - the ability to overcome deeply rooted stereotypes of thinking.

It was precisely this problem of problems that had to be faced closely in the study of a new, extremely paradoxical and at the same time extremely simple idea - the principle of the radial guides of the pistol shutter.

The novelty and paradoxicality of radial guides (hereinafter - RN), made along the curve, at the first acquaintance imposes additional complexity in understanding this idea. The psychological factors of stereotypes and inertia of thinking, the difficulty of overcoming ingrained cliches and patterns affect. Such ideas are often perceived by people with a conservative mindset as "outrageous blasphemy", as "an unheard-of attack on some sacred ideals." And to allow some miserable intellectual half-witted inventors to imagine themselves as “geniuses of mankind” ... Well, no! These strict guardians are by no means “... not funny when a buffoon dishonoring Alighieri with a despicable parody” ...


Rice. 1. Gun with radial guides

However, upon closer examination, a pistol with radial guides turns out to be by no means a “morbid fantasy of an inflamed mind” of another unfortunate inventor. And the validity and logicality of the use of guides, made along a gentle arc of a circle of large radius, becomes obvious due to a number of achieved significant advantages.

Such is the move stories. The process of breaking old stereotypes.

At the end of the nineteenth century, two prominent people from Germany were also ostracized and ridiculed for a number of years for daring to attach an internal combustion engine to a horse-drawn carriage. Their names were Karl Benz and Gottlieb Daimler. Now it is impossible to imagine modern civilization without a car! And where are all those rabid "ridicule" now?

Principle


The physical meaning of the launch vehicle lies in the fact that, as in the case of rectilinear guides (PN), each point of the guides of the shutter, when it moves along the radius, is mated with the mating surface of the frame guides. This is a consequence of the fundamental and natural geometric property of the circle, as a collection of points equidistant from the center. There are no other similar lines corresponding to this property, which is quite obvious.

Due to this property, the contact of the guides occurs over the entire surface, in contrast, for example, to broken guides (XRB-88 pistol of 0.22LR caliber), where, when they are mutually moved, in any case, only point contact occurs, which, with a sufficiently powerful ammunition, can lead to riveting of the surface of the guides and reduce their survivability.

As follows from the theory, the movement of the shutter is determined primarily by the movement of its center of mass.

It is also known that with an accuracy sufficient for engineering calculations, movement of the body at an angle up to 10 ° in certain cases, it can be equated to movement in a straight line. This is justified by the fact that the cosine of 10° is equal to 0,985, which means a decrease in the axial force (recoil) by only 1,5%, and the sine of 10°, which determines the occurrence of an additional (transverse) force that causes friction on the guides, is equal to 0,17, i.e. 17%. If we multiply this figure by the coefficient of dry friction "steel on steel" f ~ 0,1, we get only 1,7% of the recoil force, which is negligible. Figuratively speaking, it's like ruble without two kopecks.

In the context of this article, it is very appropriate to recall this concept, taken from the elementary foundations of the institute course.

And to remind about it not only to other "sofa connoisseurs-experts" who have even forgotten the tangent of 45 °, but also to individual professional specialists, it seems, who have not been attached to the data "holy academic truths". And therefore, sometimes unable to distinguish a rare diamond from a fragment of a simple glass, throwing it into the nearest puddle ...

It is in this concept that lies one of the main keys to understanding the principle.

On fig. 1 shows the layout of the pistol with PH.

In this scheme, specifically to minimize the transverse component of the recoil force, the radius of the guides is increased so much that the angle of the tangent to the radius arc at the point of the shutter CM (see Fig. 1) is only 2,35 °, i.e., it is taken very flat.

Its sine is sin 2,35° = 0,04, i.e., only 4%, which in the practice of technical calculations is considered to be negligible. In addition, according to the formula for the friction force, the sine, relatively speaking, is multiplied by the friction coefficient f ~ 0,1 (without lubrication).

The friction force in the transverse projection will then average only approx. 0,4% of the kickback force, reaching a maximum of 1,2% with heavy dirt (f ~ 0,3).

As you know, the coefficient of friction, depending on the conditions of lubrication or the degree of contamination of the weapon, can vary. from 0,02 to 0,3, i.e. by 1%. Whether such a small change matters against this background is rather a rhetorical question.

And here we are talking only about the force of friction, arising during the movement of a bullet through the bore, i.e. when the shutter is moved by about 3 mm. Further, the shutter moves purely by inertia, similar to conventional pistols, moving along conventional rail-type guides, proven in practice and operable, including in difficult operating conditions.

On fig. 2 also shows that the total angle of rotation of the shutter during rollback is negligible and is only 1,6°.

Gun with radial guides. "Russian arc" against stereotypes. Innovation and reality
Rice. 2. Shutter in recoil position

Close analogues are systems with shutter movement along inclined guides (hereinafter NN), which are described in the article “Pistol concept. A look from a new perspective" have the following parameters:

- for PP MAS-38, the angle of inclination of the guides is 4,2 ° (sin 4,2 ° = 0,07);
– at the Yati-Matic BCP – more than 5° (sin 5° = 0,09);
- for the experimental pistol Randy Neroni - 10 ° (sin 10 ° = 0,17).

At the same time, these systems, primarily the Yati-Matic and MAS-38 software, have passed official tests and, most importantly, have proven their performance over many decades.

In the PH version, the shutter movement is on average almost twice as gentle, and, therefore, the feasibility and performance should not be in doubt.

It is also important to note that the front part of the barrel, passing in the muzzle of the shutter, makes minimal vertical vibrations along the arc of the launch vehicle. With inclined guides (HH), the picture is less favorable.

Conclusion: in this version, the PH in comparison with both straight guides (RL) and inclined guides (NN) have a minimal difference, which can be reasonably neglected. The transverse forces increase by no more than 4%, so the launch vehicles are feasible and efficient, there is no reason to expect a significant decrease in reliability, including in conditions of heavy dusting compared to conventional pistols.

Advantages of RNZ. Quality and consumer properties that are superior to analogues available on the market


The use of PH in the design of the pistol allows you to raise the butt plate of the handle significantly higher than that of classic pistols. Due to this change in the form factor, a number of qualitatively important significant advantages are simultaneously achieved over analogues available on the market.

1. The most important advantage of the launch vehicle is the reduction in the height of the weapon by an average of 20 mm compared to existing analogues.

In this case, a full grip of the handle is ensured (Fig. 6).


Rice. 3. Height dimension and handle size

This advantage is combined with the ergonomic advantage of the handle according to 3 below, which greatly complements it. Jumping ahead a bit, let's take a look at it: "... due to the raised butt plate, the shape of the handle becomes similar to sports pistols and is anatomically most convenient when holding and aiming."

This ensures competitive edge above all classic pistols and especially important for compact concealed carry pistols, which represent a critical market segment.

As evidence, in Fig. 4. The advantage in height of the overall ergonomic model of a pistol with RNZ in comparison with the TT pistol is clearly shown.


Rice. 4. Height advantage. Comparison of the height dimensions of the MMG TT and the overall layout of the pistol with RNZ

An example is the Glock-19 pistol of the compact class, which has a height of 128 mm, and the Glock-26 of the subcompact class, 106 mm high.

For the sake of compactness in height, the Glock-26 handle is shortened by 22 mm, even to the detriment of ease of holding.

In contrast to these models, which are the most popular in the global CSR market, the compact pistol with RNZ (see Fig. 3) has a height subcompact pistol equal to 105 mm with full grip.

Conclusion: thus, in compactness in height, a pistol with RNZ has clear superiority over the market leader Glock-19 pistol on 20%.

2. Gain in reducing the recoil shoulder (hereinafter referred to as RO).

The Glock-19 pistol has a recoil shoulder of PO = 20 mm. However, this is only a conditional software, equal to the distance from the upper part of the butt plate of the handle to the axis of the barrel.

The true recoil shoulder (RPO), which affects the toss of the weapon, is measured from the middle of the wrist joint, and it is approximately 60 mm more than the conventional one.

T. arr. IPO "Glock" will be equal to 60 + 20 \u80d XNUMX mm.

For pistols with RNZ PO = 3 ... 0 mm. Consequently, the IPO will be less by 17 ... 20 mm and will be from 63 to 60 mm.

From this it follows that pistol with RNZ surpasses the Glock-19 pistol in terms of IPO from 27 to 33%, [u]which is significant.

In proportion to these figures, the toss of the weapon during firing also decreases, reducing the time to produce the next accurate shot.

The pistol "Strizh" (Strike One) has a recoil shoulder of 12 mm, and the IPO, respectively, is 72 mm. In this case superiority is from 14 to 20%, which is also significant.

3. Improved handle ergonomics. Due to the raised butt plate, the shape of the handle becomes similar to sports pistols and is anatomically most convenient when holding and aiming.

This ergonomic advantage is also essential.

4. Low line of sights on the slide (Fig. 5).

As the study of the overall ergonomic layout showed, this property is approximately by 20…25% reduces the amplitude of lateral vibrations of sighting devices when aiming and makes pointing and aiming noticeably more convenient and faster.

The gun feels more rigid in the hand. Presumably, this can somewhat speed up the first shot and improve the accuracy of the pistol.

Probably an improvement in intuitive shooting, which requires additional verification.

This advantage is also proposed to be attributed to the essentials.


Rice. 5. View in sight. Low line sights. Comparison of the overall layout and MMG of the TT pistol

5. A significant improvement in the balancing of weapons due to the low location of its center of gravity, due to the lowering of the “bolt-barrel” group of parts weighing about 400 g approximately 20 mm lower, which is unattainable for classic pistols.

This can have some positive effect on the convenience of aiming and manipulating weapons, including when shifting the aiming point sideways (in sports pistols, serious attention is paid to balancing and the low position of the center of gravity).

This property was revealed during the study of the overall ergonomic layout and is not obvious to specialists, since there are no similar analogues among classic pistols (exception - some sporting pistols).

Rice. 5 indirectly gives some idea that the bolt together with the barrel does not rise above the hand as an “inertial mass”, but is sunk down as much as possible. The mass of the shutter is 300 g, the barrel is more than 100 g.

This advantage is also proposed to be attributed to significant.


Rice. 6. Holding in hand the overall layout of the pistol with RNZ. Full grip on the handle

6. High cartridge feed into the chamber. Due to the movement of the ramming lug of the bolt along an arc with some rise upwards, an almost direct supply of the cartridge from the magazine to the chamber is achieved, since the bottom of the upper cartridge in the magazine can be positioned 2 ... 3 mm higher without the risk of double feed, and the front end of the cartridge has an inclination up to the chamber. The reliability of sending cartridges with any types of bullets is increased.

This advantage is also proposed to be attributed to significant.

7. Additional reduction in pistol toss. In a LV pistol, the center of gravity of the bolt is shifted noticeably higher (Fig. 2), and at the moment of firing, not only the recoil force along the barrel axis occurs, but also the rotational moment on the shoulder 5,8 mm (see in the figure) between the axis of the barrel and the center of gravity of the shutter, additionally preventing the muzzle of the pistol from being thrown up.

This property requires experimental verification.

8. The angle of rotation of the shutter during the rollback (Fig. 3), which is 1,6 °, further reduces the amount of toss of sights, since it is subtracted from the total angle of toss of the muzzle. This property is not essential, but plays some positive role.

Some of these properties, namely 4, 5, 6, were not obvious and became clear only as a result of studying the overall ergonomic model of a pistol with RNZ made by the author.

In addition to the above advantages identified in the process of studying the RNZ principle, in the format of a 3D computer model, taking into account the specific features of the application of the RNZ principle the design and layout of a number of common mechanisms and options have been worked out pistol at the level of the most modern requirements for short-barreled weapons.

Hack and predictor Aviator


Based on the analysis of the advantages presented, it can be concluded about the merits of the principle and the significant superiority of the new concept of radial bolt guides over pistols based on the concept of the Glock pistol.



114 comments
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  1. +22
    2 September 2022 04: 51
    To be honest, I have never come across such a concept. It was interesting!
    Good morning everyone, thanks to the author!
    1. +8
      2 September 2022 06: 26
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      To be honest, I have never come across such a concept. It was interesting!
      Good morning everyone, thanks to the author!

      Yes, there was at least one article on VO, about a year ago. The author is well done, his line is oppressed.
      1. +2
        2 September 2022 07: 28
        Yes, there was at least one article on VO, about a year ago.

        I apparently missed it.
    2. -1
      3 September 2022 08: 42
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      To be honest, I have never come across such a concept.

      But it seems to me that the Czechs issued a much more promising concept.https://modernfirearms.net/ru/pistolety-i-revolvery/pistolety/chehija-pistolety/laugo-alien/
      While its cost is high (apparently, because the series is small), but in terms of accuracy it is a champion. If it had passed the tests, like an army one, it would have become in demand not only among athletes.
      1. 0
        8 November 2022 16: 16
        "https://modernfirearms.net/en/pistolety-i-revolvery/pistolety/chehija-pistolety/laugo-alien/" - the gun is very interesting.
        But the pistol in question is also with a "twist".
        It is necessary to take both options and slowly consider. Compare. Test.
        Everything has to be done smartly.
    3. 0
      6 October 2022 18: 15
      A beautiful theoretical idea, vulgarized by a disgustingly made layout! Since there is a 3D model, it was possible to mill it out of plywood for little money, and paint it, with luck, the shutter will walk if done separately.
      3D printing is already more expensive, but you can make a complete model with all the details, shoot a video in German and look for a company willing to risk prototyping and testing.
      1. +1
        26 October 2022 00: 57
        A beautiful theoretical idea, vulgarized by a disgustingly made layout!

        My dear, for you to insult someone else's work with such filth, to pour mud on it - is this a "need of the soul", or what?
        Apparently, having said this, you grow to the skies in your own eyes?

        It took me 5 months to work on this layout.
        It has been sawn, remade and digested a thousand times...
        And there such "space" (!!) problems had to be solved, that words can’t even explain it ...
        And there was no time for beauty!
        The main thing was - to understand the essence of the matter, to find out - can it work, or "idea fix".

        This here "culture" ours is pour mud over, trample in the mud all your own, domestic.
        Show yourself "the smartest", not realizing that you are destroying a great idea that allows you to create a Russian, domestic world's best compact pistol!!

        If you don't understand - understand, study the question ...
        Or better yet, keep quiet, by God ...
        1. 0
          30 October 2022 21: 59
          Sorry, didn't mean to offend you. But still - if you show a layout, it should attract an investor, that is, a person who hardly understands anything about weapons. Or a general who is also not an engineer by training. "disgustingly made" is an opinion considering my skills as a turner-miller, and helping my wife in casting jewelry according to her sketches. Therefore, I know how to work with metal and look from this point of view.
          3D printers are affordable enough to order a print, once you have a three-dimensional one, then convert it to STL and send the file. In order to avoid problems with the law, I would close the hole of the drummer, and draw a couple of holes down into the barrel, so that when the layout was withdrawn for examination, no one would shoot from it.
  2. +2
    2 September 2022 05: 00
    Curved surfaces are more difficult to process than straight ones, and the gain in the convenience of holding weapons is for special forces. So it seems to me!
    1. +16
      2 September 2022 05: 23
      Does a CNC machine care about straight or crooked?
      1. +7
        2 September 2022 06: 08
        Absolutely don't care. In one case linear interpolation in the other circular. The program differs by one number after G.
      2. 0
        2 September 2022 06: 28
        Quote: Monar
        Does a CNC machine care about straight or crooked?

        The machine may not care, but with the hardening of the surface of the steam, you already have to bother. It seems to me.
        1. 0
          2 September 2022 08: 25
          I don't give a damn about the machine. The designer and technologist do not care at all. The construction itself becomes more complicated. Additional details are included. Manipulations with the gun (assembly / disassembly, etc.) are greatly complicated. All this for the sake of a very dubious gain in ergonomics (ergonomics is a very subjective concept). Not worth the candle
          1. +2
            2 September 2022 11: 49
            Of all the pistols that I held in my hands, I know only the PM. Well, there will be a shutter there not in a straight line, but as in the article to move. Where is the complication of the design?
            Do not judge strictly. Sofa expert. :)
            1. 0
              2 September 2022 12: 48
              Take PM. Bend the guides. And try to insert the shutter. Have you figured out what it will look like? Given that the shutter is also crooked. How will the sleeve be extracted? Will the trigger cock? Much will become more difficult. And without a decrease in reliability will not do
              1. +1
                2 September 2022 12: 55
                Hmm. Really. If you just redo the PM, then garbage will turn out. :)
    2. +2
      2 September 2022 06: 10
      It is doubtful that the grooves are now being polished. And milling is pointless. It is difficult to imagine now one operation on a universal milling machine, if others are done on CNC.
      You can make a new pistol for the old technology. But why? Then it's easier to make old pistols and not to soar brains. And modern equipment without CNC is somehow difficult to imagine. Masochism turns out.
      Maybe I'm corrupted by the CNC?
  3. +8
    2 September 2022 05: 14
    Everything is so logical that the question arises - what's the catch?
    1. 0
      2 September 2022 09: 13
      In the inertia of thinking. "What was good for our ancestors is good for us, there will be no place for any heresies."
  4. +10
    2 September 2022 05: 24
    I don’t know, I didn’t meet it, but the idea itself is interesting, it should lower the aiming line as much as possible and reduce recoil. In my opinion there is a possibility
    1. +3
      2 September 2022 06: 29
      Quote: older
      I don’t know, I didn’t meet it, but the idea itself is interesting, it should lower the aiming line as much as possible and reduce recoil. In my opinion there is a possibility

      Novelty is only in curvilinearity and some reduction in recoil. However, the author recognizes and cites as an example MAT-38 and Yatti-Matic.
  5. 0
    2 September 2022 06: 03
    And on the basis of the above analogs, in the most understandable form - by the "method of analogies" - it was intelligibly and convincingly shown that this paradoxical and extremely simple principle, which provides no less significant superiority over all classic pistols, is quite feasible and workable.
    Nothing of the kind was shown in the previous article, which was reflected in the comments to it. The author responded very nervously to the comments) And he wrote the next article with a stream of self-praise, trying to “decorate” a very controversial idea with excellent epithets.
    It is still not clear how exactly the moment of "sawing" by the upper part of the receiver with the lower part will be parried. In the classical scheme, the vector of movement of the parts of the gun will coincide with the vector of movement of the bullet. As a result, there is uniform wear of the mechanism parts, uniform force compensation by the spring, etc.
    In the proposed scheme, the bullet's motion vector goes tangentially to the mechanism. As a result, over most of the arc area, the parts will rub against each other, and not just like that, but with the impact that the shot creates. The result is rapid and uneven wear of the mechanism, jamming, etc. Probably the first 5-10 shots will really come out good...
    1. 0
      5 October 2022 09: 11
      It is still not clear how exactly the moment of "sawing" by the upper part of the receiver with the lower part will be parried.

      Something tells me that the muzzle will fail earlier all the same.
      In the proposed scheme, the bullet's motion vector goes tangentially to the mechanism. As a result, over most of the arc area, the parts will rub against each other, and not just like that, but with the impact that the shot creates. The result is rapid and uneven wear of the mechanism, jamming, etc. Probably the first 5-10 shots will really come out good...

      Well, firstly, let's remember the work of body armor and in this case, the "blow" will be distributed over a larger area, distributing and reducing the momentum by mm². So not an argument.
      Secondly, you can make a lockable bolt and a gas tube "in the beard" the dimensions of the gun will slightly increase, and even then only in front. So no argument twice.

      Regarding the design itself, in this idea, I find it really important that the cartridge can be sent with a slight skew, which means there is less chance of jamming the shutter. And this is very important, especially for the secondary, from which not many shots will be fired, but in a rather critical situation. Pistols in general, in principle, at long distances are used only at shooting ranges. According to my observations, in real situations the enemy is rarely more than 15 meters away, but as a rule there is practically no time to eliminate him. Therefore, in pistols, they are trying to develop the convenience of aiming at short distances and the convenience of quick shooting, and not accuracy and range.
      In summary, even if this gun is only capable of firing 100 shots, if it reliably fires every penny, then it is already worth it to be embodied in metal.

      All of the above is my personal opinion based on my observations and experience.
      1. 0
        6 October 2022 11: 05
        Quote from SincerityX
        Well, firstly, let's remember the work of body armor and in this case, the "blow" will be distributed over a larger area, distributing and reducing the momentum by mm². So not an argument.

        Due to the fact that elderberry grows in the garden, an uncle lives in Kyiv. I didn’t read further, because it’s not an argument)
  6. +4
    2 September 2022 06: 07
    Why not? Check with practice. A modern machine does not care which grooves to mill. Plastic pouring - even more so.
    1. +3
      2 September 2022 07: 32
      Quote: mmaxx
      Why not? Check with practice. A modern machine does not care which grooves to mill. Plastic pouring - even more so.

      The problem may not be production, but the operation of the mechanisms of the pistol during the shot.
      At least other requirements for materials.
      1. +3
        2 September 2022 13: 41
        All mechanisms must be tested. It would seem that now it is not a problem to make a workable weapon. And not everyone succeeds even now.
  7. +1
    2 September 2022 06: 36
    Quote: older
    I don’t know, I didn’t meet it, but the idea itself is interesting, it should lower the aiming line as much as possible and reduce recoil. In my opinion there is a possibility

    Yes, you are right, but.....
    The physical meaning of the PH is that, as in the case of rectilinear guides (PN), each point of the guides of the shutter when it moves along the radius is mated with the mating surface of the guide frame.
    It's in theory. And in practice, two Cylindrical surfaces will touch at a point. requestAs for a flat surface, there will be "full" contact, except for distortions and wear. request
    This is a consequence of the fundamental and natural geometric property of the circle, as a set of points equidistant from the center.
    Yes, yes, yes, fundamental and natural properties of a circle, yes, on a blank sheet of paper .... recourse
    1. -1
      2 September 2022 13: 44
      These cylindrical surfaces will touch exactly the same number of points as the straight ones. What are two cylindrical surfaces, what are two flat surfaces in contact at three points.
      1. 0
        2 September 2022 16: 04
        Justify the minus! Two SURFACES CANNOT interact at a point. It is necessary to think in volume, and not on a plane.
        Otherwise, I will reject it on principle. Although I do not minus opponents.
    2. +1
      2 September 2022 16: 05
      Justify the minus! Two SURFACES CANNOT interact at a point. It is necessary to think in volume, and not on a plane.
      Otherwise, I will reject it on principle. Although I do not minus opponents.
    3. 0
      4 September 2022 08: 10
      Quote: Mavrikiy
      two cylindrical surfaces will touch at.

      Guilty, of course on the line. fool My minus? How interesting.... crying
  8. +2
    2 September 2022 06: 54
    Clap it! Yes, and run with her in the shooting range and at the training ground. Only then can you understand whether it is good or not. Yati Matic was not made in vain.
  9. +2
    2 September 2022 07: 04
    The author's statement about the reduction in barrel toss compared to the classics is erroneous. When the shutter moves backwards, the curved guides give it an upward impulse. Accordingly, the rear of the frame receives momentum directed back and down. Obviously, this momentum will increase the muzzle rise.

    But it's still half the trouble. The main trouble is in the large dynamic loads on the radial guides at the moment the recoil begins. The recoil momentum tries to move the bolt straight back, and the radial guides force the bolt to move up. Moreover, the curvature of the radial trajectory of the shutter movement increases instantly, which leads to very large loads on the guides at the beginning of the movement of the shutter and a decrease in the load after stabilization of the movement speed.

    To eliminate this drawback, the guides should not have a radial shape with a constant curvature, but a spiral one with zero curvature at the beginning of the stroke and a smooth increase in curvature as the recoil moves. This shape will avoid the actual sticking of the shutter into the frame at the very beginning of the stroke and smoothly distribute the momentum of the shutter rotation along the entire trajectory of its full stroke.

    But on the other hand, the spiral shape of the guides greatly complicates the production of such a pistol and impairs its reliability in harsh operating conditions. Therefore, all its advantages over the straightforward classics are quite controversial.
    1. +2
      2 September 2022 13: 47
      The back of the frame, just getting the momentum back-up. Which in theory helps to KEEP the barrel closer to the line of sight. In theory. In practice, the trunk may even peck down. Which is generally good. The target is not lost.
      1. 0
        2 September 2022 15: 33
        Quote: mmaxx
        The back of the frame, just getting the momentum back-up.

        It would be interesting to hear the rationale for this paradoxical (IMHO) conclusion. As I understand it, the return of the sleeve tends to move the free shutter strictly back. In this case, the shutter interacts with the guides, which change its trajectory in the upward direction. According to Newton's 3rd law, if the shutter receives an upward impulse, then the frame receives the opposite impulse, that is, downward. Accordingly, its back part goes down, and the whole structure turns up front.

        If you do not agree, bring your reasoning for public viewing.
        1. +1
          2 September 2022 15: 54
          The barrel, in the general case, bounces, first of all, from the momentum of the outgoing gases and the bullet. The shutter only acts at the rearmost point when stopped. The toss, as a rule, comes from the fact that there is a shoulder. The momentum pushes the barrel back, and the hand rests the gun below the barrel. Shoulder, force, moment. The moment throws up the end of the barrel.
          In this scheme, the shutter stroke is directed slightly upwards towards the rear of the frame. A small moment is created, acting against the main moment from the bullet departure, etc. Well, the trunk is lower. And the shoulder is also smaller. This reduces the moment. And since the cartridge is the same, then the impulse too. The crowd certainly plays its part. A light pistol recoils more sharply.
          In any case, lowering the barrel for accurate shooting at the shooting range is good. But live shooting practitioners have their say. If this gun requires a change of habits, then it can be rejected by practitioners. But here's a question for them. wink
          There is also a whole complex of habits and reflexes. You may like it, or you may not.
          The idea is good. Would try. It is bad if the idea does not receive justification from some other thing. Like some kind of locking of the trunk.
        2. 0
          3 September 2022 13: 30
          Why exactly does the rear of the frame have to go down? The resultant when the shutter and frame interact will be applied in the region of the shutter CM.
        3. 0
          16 October 2022 13: 31
          The handle with the body is heavier than the shutter - the moment will be distributed upwards
    2. 0
      2 September 2022 16: 06
      Well, the spiral surfaces will simply jam.
  10. fiv
    +1
    2 September 2022 07: 24
    I somehow did not catch the moment at which the notorious 20 mm of superiority appeared. They talked and talked about percentages, and then - bam! -
    "1. The most important advantage of the launch vehicle is to reduce the height of the weapon by an average of 20 mm compared to existing analogues.". Where did they come from, these 20 mm revolutions ?? The author calculated the shutter lift as 3 mm.
    Or the author does not say something, or one of the two.
    1. +2
      2 September 2022 09: 03
      Where did they come from, these 20 mm revolutions ??

      He compared it with the TT, which has a return spring under the barrel. The author himself, judging by the layout, has it on the trunk. Here's an extra 20 mm for you.
      The PR specialist knows how to present the product! :)))
      1. fiv
        0
        2 September 2022 09: 30
        After catching thousandths in sine - cosine 20 mm from a photo with a veteran - unscientific. In addition, the revolutionary product is one and a half times thicker than the TT. And so - the debut idea is not luxurious, but fruitful
        1. +2
          2 September 2022 13: 48
          All 9mm pistols are thicker than TTs. Very much.
          1. -1
            2 September 2022 16: 25
            Not everyone.
            Ruger, for example. 23mm width, it is thinner than TT which is 28mm.


            Thicker are those that do not have a single-row store. But they also have more ammo in the store.
            1. +1
              2 September 2022 16: 30
              So there's a pickpocket. I think his payoff is brutal. That for a pistol used at close range is an insignificant drawback.
              Normal pistols are thick. Such logs are...
              1. 0
                2 September 2022 18: 16
                Can't please you :)
                The "normal" Colt1911 pistol (30 mm wide) chambered for 9 mm and even chambered for 45 caliber is only 2 mm thicker than the TT.
                The width of the pistol is in many cases determined by the thickness of the magazine. If the store is single-row, then it is thinner, if it is two-row, it is thicker.
                Glock 17 for 17 rounds in the store (TT has 8 rounds) - 33 mm wide, 5 mm thicker than the TT.
                Glock 19, 15-round magazine - 30 mm wide, only 2 mm larger than the TT.
                1. 0
                  2 September 2022 18: 57
                  I'm not trying to argue everything to the limit. TT is thin, flat. But still, the main running pistols under 9 mm are quite thick. That does not exclude those and subtle ones.
                  1. 0
                    2 September 2022 19: 17
                    Many variants of the Glock are 30mm wide. Do not say that they are not running.
                    But in general, the width of the gun matters for the comfort of the grip and is tied to the size of the palm. If for hidden carrying, then all the same, pocket ones are more convenient.
                    However, I remember that gangsters from one movie secretly carried pistols based on Colt 1911 :) - Star Model B and Auto-Ordinance M1911A1.

                    However, if Jules is clearly a pro, then Vincent is still a gangster, dangerous both for others and for himself ... :)
      2. +1
        2 September 2022 16: 08
        Nope.. Well, most pistols have a spring on the bottom.
        TT is just one of them.
    2. 0
      3 September 2022 23: 58
      Quote: fiv
      Somehow I did not catch the moment at which the notorious 20 mm of superiority appeared.


      And do not catch, since this statement of the author is absolutely false. He was unable to prove otherwise. He just believes in these 20mm.

      The height of the pistol, other things being equal (automation scheme, location of the return spring, identical magazine of the same capacity and the same inclination), will be determined only by the position of the upper edge of the magazine relative to the axis of the barrel. Even if the author manages to place the magazine in the way he has in the animation (the cartridge is exactly along the axis of the barrel before feeding), the gain will be less than 5mm for the 9mm caliber.
    3. 0
      16 October 2022 13: 35
      the upper part of the grip is almost at the level of the trunk, hence the gain in height
  11. +2
    2 September 2022 07: 56
    The problem of the old stereotyped, blinkered world, which does not allow to see the meaning, the truth of the big World.
  12. +4
    2 September 2022 08: 02
    In pursuit of my previous comment, I want to note another very significant drawback of the concept. It consists in increasing the effect of barrel toss on the accuracy of the shot.

    In a classic pistol with straight rails, the recoil drives the free bolt straight back. At the same time, the movement of the shutter has very little effect on the position of the remaining parts of the pistol and the barrel, including the bullet moving along it. And only at the very end of its stroke, the bolt transfers the energy of its movement to the rest of the pistol and, through a compressed return spring, throws them up. By that time, the bullet had already flown away and the tossing of the pistol had nothing to do with it.

    In a pistol with curved guides, the interaction of the bolt with the frame begins with the very first millimeter of bolt movement. As soon as the shutter began to move back and up, everything else, respectively, also began to move back and down. And the bullet has not yet left the bore. Therefore, too early toss will undoubtedly worsen the accuracy of the shot.
    1. +1
      2 September 2022 13: 55
      There is some kind of contraption that locks the barrel and bolt from below. So there is no free shutter. And that means that everything comes into motion after the bullet exits the barrel.
      This thing has the biggest problem. Everyone has long abandoned such lockers. In reality, there were Browning schemes for lowering the rear of the barrel and coupling with various protrusions on the barrel or turning the bolt with larvae.
      1. 0
        2 September 2022 15: 36
        Quote: mmaxx
        There is some kind of contraption that locks the barrel and bolt from below.

        There are no shutter-locking gizmos there. The lockable bolt is practically not used in automatic pistols. The exception is Dessert Eagle. All the rest with free shutters.

        To drive the automation of a weapon with a lockable bolt, you need a gas engine with a gas exhaust system, a bolt carrier with a piston and the bolt itself, which interacts with the receiver by closing the larva to the lugs of the receiver. There is nothing like this pistol.
        1. 0
          2 September 2022 15: 47
          Watch the video. Carefully.
          And what locks the semi-free shutter on pistols? Nothing, right? Are you kidding me? For example, Colt 1911 - grooves on the barrel and bolt. Glock - barrel protrusion beyond the edge of the cartridge case ejection window. More to write?
  13. +1
    2 September 2022 08: 51
    especially important for compact concealed carry pistols

    Well, what can I say. A compact TT-sized concealed carry pistol (as seen in Fig. 4) will instantly force the Glock 26 out of the market. Serve the Austrians, but what are they asking :)).
    But seriously, then
    1. The presented sketch obviously does not correspond to the made layout and is rather misleading.
    2. On the layout, part of the shutter goes inside the frame (only the front part of the shutter is open, Fig. 6). And this means that it will not be possible to make a real pistol according to the layout - the back of the shutter will rest against the palm when moving back (the layout shows that the shutter cannot be moved to the rear position, the back of the frame interferes). And the whole idea of ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXbchecking and comparing sizes using a mock-up does not correspond to reality, so you can’t make a real gun from a mock-up.
    3. The size of the shutter is related to its mass. By adding curvature, the height of the shutter decreases - and, accordingly, the mass. The real shutter will have to be done higher. Which leads to the loss of meaning to introduce curvature.
    4. When reducing the height of the shutter, according to the author, you can lower the barrel below. But this will automatically lead to a decrease in the height of the magazine (the position of the upper part of the magazine and the axis of the barrel are interconnected things), and, accordingly, to a decrease in the number of cartridges in the magazine. If you increase them, then you need to increase the length of the handle and, accordingly, the height of the gun. All dimensions will return to the "compact" TT.
    5. The author has long "musical" fingers, it seems. Comparing the position of the trigger on the proposed layout and the TT layout, you understand that not everyone will be comfortable reaching the trigger.
    6. The position of the thumb in the proposed layout is much higher than the index finger (it can be seen from the notch on the handle in relation to the trigger - the notch is much higher. This really occurs on sports pistols, although not on all. But it practically does not occur on combat pistols, even if the design of the gun allows it.
    For example, the modern P226 or the venerable good old Luger :)), structurally quite allow for a "sporty" grip, but they did not do this.


    On sports for practical shooting, this is also far from always found (RG120 (ROC "Aspid"), for example)

    In conclusion, I would like to say to the author that creativity is a useful thing, but the details should also be worked out.
  14. +2
    2 September 2022 09: 53
    The article provides a link to the author's previous article: “The concept of a pistol. A look from a new angle." I highly recommend reading the comments under the 2021 article.
  15. 0
    2 September 2022 10: 13
    Quality and consumer properties that are superior to analogues available on the market

    You can start (start!) Talking about any "analogue qualities" of a design only after creating, testing and debugging a prototype, and not at the stage of creating simple sketches, as the author does. In history, a lot of designs have been preserved, "analogous" on paper and inoperable in practice. The author would have to redistribute efforts and move from the campaign about the "analogousness" of the design to its practical implementation.
    1. +1
      6 September 2022 12: 32
      With further consideration of this issue in refinement, creativity will smoothly flow into the legal plane according to 223 of the Criminal Code. RF. This is not Texas, and not even Austria.
      1. 0
        6 September 2022 15: 05
        With further consideration of this issue in refinement, creativity will smoothly flow into the legal plane according to 223 of the Criminal Code. RF. This is not Texas, and not even Austria.

        Probably for this reason, neither in the Russian Empire, nor in the USSR, nor in the current Russian Federation have they created anything worthy of attention in the field of pistols.
      2. 0
        5 October 2022 09: 37
        I also thought about this, that it would be nice for the author to get off status first)
      3. 0
        6 October 2022 18: 21
        In practice, you can make a 3D model of plastic and paint it. After gluing the nail pieces into the drummer, it will become reliable enough to put on the SCATT simulator and click idle, comparing the accuracy.
        And you can make a video. As long as the barrel is plastic with holes down, and the shutter is plastic, and the store is solid lead - the UK has nothing to do with it.
        Filing an application for a patent in the Russian Federation and passing a formal examination is also protection from officials, it is inexpensive.
  16. +2
    2 September 2022 11: 03
    The idea is interesting, it would be nice to make a shooting model in metal and compare it, at least with Strizh .. there is also a linear recoil system ...
  17. +3
    2 September 2022 12: 39
    I am not a specialist in small arms, nor, based on what I read, I conclude that the source of all the main advantages of the proposed pistol is ultimately the lowering of the bore axis line.
    Then it’s completely incomprehensible to me why the author compares his invention with Glocks and TTs, and not with GSh-18 or PLC-14?

    1. +3
      2 September 2022 13: 56
      I'm not a firearms specialist

      And even more so the author.
      Then I don't understand why

      Yes, just because the author is far from designing small arms.
      1. +1
        2 September 2022 16: 19
        Many good gunsmiths are just enthusiasts. Including Kalashnikov. So in vain you are so. If checked and rejected, it is still a positive experience.
        1. -1
          2 September 2022 16: 30
          ENTHUSIASM - Strong inspiration, elation, enthusiasm for something.

          As you can see, you can’t design a gun on enthusiasm alone. Therefore, all good gunsmiths are not "just enthusiasts", they are also experts in their field.
          1. +1
            2 September 2022 17: 56
            I didn't even come up with this. Already compared. Maxim, Browning, Kalashnikov, Stoner. Not to mention Degtyarev, Tokarev, Simonov, Mausers, Glock in the end. All were strangers. But enthusiasts.
            1. 0
              2 September 2022 21: 02
              You looked at it from one side. Nuggets have been listed. Can you list the fiery enthusiasts who enthusiastically undertook to design, but never created anything?
              1. 0
                3 September 2022 05: 54
                Well, what about without them? Natural selection is needed! First there was Icarus. Everyone invented with Ivan the Terrible (this is Vasilyevich) laughing, Lilienthal ...., and then the Wright brothers.
                What are you going to do here?
                1. 0
                  3 September 2022 10: 10
                  What are you going to do here?

                  Well, if you take scrambled eggs for God's gift, and even with enthusiasm, then medicine is powerless, yes.
        2. 0
          7 October 2022 12: 32
          What's in vain? I seem to be asking legitimate questions.
          As for
          checked and rejected, it is still a positive experience
          , then do you really think that there is not enough negative experience in specialized design bureaus?
          By the way, who will pay for the banquet? Who will make the prototype? And what documentation? Is the author definitely able to develop its kit, according to which something can actually be made?
          Beautiful 3D pictures and an MMG file sawn from a dumbbell are wonderful. Only to the concepts of "development and design of weapons" is it no closer than children's drawings as a gift to a military dad on February 23. Any developer knows perfectly well that the concept of development, even if it is embodied in beautiful pictures, is not even a percentage, it is a fraction of a percent of that gigantic work, which in the end may lead to the creation of a workable sample.
          The Ministry of Defense receives hundreds of proposals from such "offers" every month. And in all my personal practice, not a single one turned out to be truly sensible in fact.
          If you want to develop seriously, the doors of the design bureau are open, there is an acute shortage of specialists there today.
          And do not confuse the concepts of enthusiast and self-taught. All designers are enthusiasts. Without this character trait, there is simply nothing to do in this profession. But the same Kalashnikov, by the time the model of small arms was created, even if it was simply allowed to participate in state tests, was no longer self-taught at all. Read his biography carefully.
    2. 0
      7 October 2022 07: 58
      Alas, now it is necessary to compare with Laugo Alien - both the barrel is low and the toss is seriously less. The video is full with him, the toss is visible. The benchmark in design is set, it remains to look for the best design option, so that Alien is cheaper in production, and locking with a short stroke so that it shoots all sorts of porno.
      1. 0
        7 October 2022 12: 38
        Excuse me, but who determined that "Laugo Alien" is
        Reference in construction
        By whom is he assigned?
  18. 0
    2 September 2022 14: 41
    I had to shoot from PM, TT, Stechkin and revolvers. In fact, you can shoot from a slingshot. Here I see attempts by inventors to come up with some kind of chip, which can then be profitably sold, such as "there are no analogues to this"!
    Such a dry residue - when fired, a different shooting dynamics is obtained (the recoil vector is directed unusually and if you shoot in the air, you will have to retrain for several years)
    I think it will also have a bad effect on the return spring, reliability and service life of the weapon.
    Ergonomics and stealth wearing, for these purposes, take something simpler from ladies' weapons - when you need to shoot at 10 steps.
    This is for stupid PMa shooters grabbing it with both hands and getting their hands injured in the process - that's the whole innovation.
    No need here about cosines - let's better about "stokanuses".
    1. 0
      2 September 2022 16: 25
      But, you see, you can’t sell a product without advertising ...
      "With such a mood, you will not sell an elephant" drinks
      1. 0
        2 September 2022 16: 38
        I completely agree, but advertising is the last thing in the arms trade - everything is decided by nepotism and connections. It started with the Kotovskaya cavalry - and the legendary generals.
        Shoeing an army is a great art (every general overcomes and re-equips it)
  19. -1
    2 September 2022 14: 54
    "At the end of the nineteenth century, two prominent people from Germany were also ostracized and ridiculed for a number of years for daring to attach an internal combustion engine to a horse-drawn carriage."

    No matter how. Motorized vehicles - train, ship existed, 4-stroke (gas) engines existed. Everyone was waiting for the DVG to finally be light enough to install on a carriage and on an airship. The steam engine has already been rated as inapplicable (Kyuno's carriage). There were no illusions in 1886 about batteries (from the telegraph office) and an electric motor either. By the way, flying non-powered gliders (Lilienthal) were also already in the mature phase, they were also waiting for the DVG, because it didn’t work out with steam ones (Langley, Mozhaisky). There was no ostracism either to the car or to the motorcycle (five years before the Benz car).
  20. +1
    2 September 2022 16: 16
    friends,
    I confess that I did not quite understand the technical parameters, but I understood that practical shooting would improve. The person who wrote the article knows what he is writing about, but it is for specialists. I'll think about it. But overall I like the gun. am
  21. 0
    2 September 2022 17: 28
    Author, if you published here in order to find like-minded people, then in vain. For the military, the characteristics of the pistol are in importance immediately before the performance characteristics of the dagger, and the industry working for them is extremely inert. I would advise publishing on the resources of shooters or practical shooting enthusiasts (these are ready to go to great lengths to increase the speed of the track). Plus, those who work for them are not so entangled in GOSTs hand and foot, there are chances for implementation during your lifetime. And now, if your idea "works" with them, then in 20-30 years, when the next PMMMM is released, your idea will reach the holsters of the military.
    By the way, think about it, can it be more profitable to use an involute? The form is more complicated, but they cut the teeth of the gears, they manage.
  22. -1
    3 September 2022 06: 13
    Hello!
    I am the author of the article and principle.
    I want to provide statistics.
    According to the first video (on youtube - and this is my work)
    per day -1115 views -2 "likes"
    On the second - 913 views - 0 (zero)
    On the third -658 1 (one)

    I do not comment on reviews, but the percentage of "evil" is more than 50%.
    (It used to be over 80%)
    In "I won't fall on your feet".
    For good reviews - I don't bring thanks.
    For bad reviews...

    Look at yourself.
    I don't continue...

    Abs. I am sure that (with rare exceptions) that no one will draw conclusions for themselves.
    I fight for my country. And as you wish.

    No respect for your community!

    Decide for yourself.


    I will not bow at my feet. Victor Shershnev.
    1. 0
      5 September 2022 14: 37
      the author has already been offered 100500 times not to swear by garbage, but to take a loan and come with money to Soyuz-TM, Fort or any other private company with a license to manufacture weapons and order a working prototype from them according to their drawings. If you have CAD drawings ready, I don't think it will be very expensive to produce one prototype.
      and with this working prototype on hand, it will already be possible to compare it with Glocks and other GSh and PM
      Until then, it will be just an empty shaking of air.
      1. 0
        5 October 2022 09: 43
        I completely agree. But I think if he can convince their design department of the importance of his invention, then no money will be needed.
  23. -1
    3 September 2022 12: 46
    Medal "Black ingratitude".
    That's what we lack in Russia!
    And it is worth establishing "Honorary Headband of the Idiot Inventor".
    "Order of the Garter" is - worn on the knee.
    We need - on the forehead.
    And a special "Degree" is an anti-cumulative "tile" on the "Honorary Headband of the Idiot Inventor". The second degree is in silver.
    The first - well, of course - not "in gold". Guess what we should have 1 degree in Russia.
    But only not "in cow ..." and not "in pig ..." Why offend the cute, graceful "Swallows" and "Dunyash" ...
    In "pigeon litter" - just right! You won't offend anyone.
    Chicken - maybe also worth considering ...

    And on the back there should be the Words: "I stand, as before an eternal Riddle ...."

    You won't break Russia.

    PS And burnt plywood, plus a piece of cardboard for a block. budget tight...
    "Scald" - who will guess "ingenuity")))

    The circus is leaving...
  24. 0
    3 September 2022 13: 46
    Why did the author call the guides radial if they are arc? There is a difference between an arc and a radius.
    1. 0
      3 September 2022 14: 26
      Yes, this "author" in general. Allows too much. It's good that at least you paid attention to it.
      You have to think what to understand.
      We have to start and finish with this.
      1. +1
        3 September 2022 15: 21
        Do not despair.
        After all, it’s like with us: just start, what to do, you will immediately become to blame for everything. And everywhere. From your home to the highest authority. Hence the conclusion: everything in the world is created by bad people. The good ones lie on the couch and scold the bad ones. Whoever does nothing is good.
        Forward! Do what you think is right and don't expect gratitude. And our people are good. He must be loved. According to Christian.
        1. 0
          3 September 2022 20: 35
          What a shame, my dear friend, to see how my homeland goes to the bottom.
          My own uncle, Viktor Nilovich Shershnev, was the Chief Builder of the project - the first submarine capable of delivering nuclear weapons to the Atlantic shores of the "probable enemy".
          We trampled the glory of our ancestors into the dirt.
          Enemies can take out the most expensive champagne from the cellars.
          And break the ice...
          Order to be cut out of 3 km of the Antarctic glacier, and charter to the White House lawn. In the "oral" cabinet "...
          Monica will rise well on the "Bala" ...
    2. 0
      5 October 2022 09: 46
      If it comes to that, then "chordal" laughing Let's be hot! For some reason this forum is very welcome) wassat
  25. 0
    3 September 2022 20: 49
    A. S. Pushkin. Poet
    Alexander Pushkin
    POET
    Poet! do not value the love of the people.
    Enthusiastic praise will pass a momentary noise;
    Hear the judgment of a fool and the laughter of the cold crowd,
    But you stay firm, calm and gloomy.
    You are the king: live alone. Free road
    Go where the free mind takes you
    Improving the fruits of your favorite thoughts,
    Not requiring rewards for a noble deed.
    They are in you. You yourself are your highest court;
    You know how to evaluate your work more strictly.
    Are you satisfied with him, a demanding artist?
    Satisfied? So let the crowd scold him
    And spits on the altar where your fire burns
    And in children's playfulness your tripod shakes.
  26. 0
    3 September 2022 21: 05
    The heifer sows his seed.

    Freedom sower is a desert,
    I went out early, to the star;
    A clean and innocent hand
    In the enslaved reins
    Threw a life-giving seed -
    But I lost only time,
    Good thoughts and labors ...

    Ride, peaceful people!
    You will not be awakened by the call.
    Why herds of gifts of freedom?
    They should be cut or cut.
    Their inheritance from generation to generation
    Yarmo with rattles and scourge.

    16
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4KQae9oMWs
    1. +1
      5 September 2022 18: 04
      The author is certainly right in stating that the movement of the mass of the shutter along an arc can reduce the angle of the pistol toss when firing, (especially note the low line of sight), it can be assumed that the pistol will even lower without changing the angle (depends on the mass of the shutter and where it will have a center gravity) how much this will affect exactly is difficult to judge, by the way, pistols with a large toss angle could be quite accurate and convenient when shooting, the same Mauser or Colt 1911
  27. The comment was deleted.
  28. +2
    5 October 2022 21: 29
    That's not the United States with us ... Everything is simple there - publication - advertising - raised money for crowdfunding - ordered - tested. Fast. Comfortable. Therefore, scientists and engineers gather there from everywhere. Nobody wants to fight Russian bureaucracy and bribery. Because there will be no victory.
  29. 0
    14 October 2022 19: 51
    Quote: Bogalex
    By whom is he assigned?

    Structural solutions:
    The low location of the barrel below the "tail" of the handle,
    Short ramming bolt comb,
    Falling trigger in a weapon chambered for center combat,
    Interchangeable blocks "shutter top - sear - trigger", that is, for a collimator, the descent force is less, for an iron rear sight it is different, which may make sense.
  30. +1
    19 October 2022 09: 40
    At first I didn’t understand about the bend, but as I watched the video, it dawned on me. A very interesting idea. The real model is terrible as a handicraft from a half-educated turner. I understand that efficiency is important, and not appearance at the moment, but still, the concept must have a presentable appearance.
  31. 0
    25 October 2022 14: 30
    Another visionary like Shpakovsky and another "inventor" of the crank-and-rod machine that was published here.
    I have long noticed that if in the text the author writes about the "ossification of thinking" and the lack of "broad views" among contemporaries, instead of elementarily describing the principles of operation of his "invention", give performance characteristics, show at least drawings (I I'm talking about 3D models or existing layouts), and JUSTIFY the essence of your "breakthrough of scientific and technical thought", then the entire text can and should be taken solely as entertaining reading matter.
    Well, the main question for such unfortunate inventors: Why don't you apply for a PATENT? This is logical - you have, undoubtedly, a brilliant idea, so write to the patent bureau and arrange everything as it should. And then feel free to send articles to online publications, backing them up with the number of an honestly obtained patent for an invention.
    1. 0
      25 October 2022 20: 32
      Quote: Daddy Pig
      instead of simply describing the principles of operation of your "invention", give performance characteristics, show at least drawings (I'm not talking about 3D models or existing layouts), and JUSTIFY the essence of your "breakthrough of scientific and technical thought",


      Kind Daddy pig!
      You all of the above(!!!) - right in front of your nose (or, to put it mildly, "patch"). And you don't see?!!!
      It also says about the previous article, by the way - read it, at least before you make an "expert" out of yourself.
      True, only an idiot will show you drawings! Yes, you already see in the technique "not an ear or a snout" - it's useless.
      And about "operating layouts" - how do you imagine that ?! Have you even read the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation? To carry such nonsense!
      By the way, the patent is already 5 ... 6 years old, as it is. But you don't need it either.
      If you don't understand belmes!
      Plus, if you can't even figure out what's in front of you, uhm, "piglet" - do not try his "mind" show.
      The opposite effect is obtained!
      1. 0
        26 October 2022 00: 37
        So write down the patent number, and that's it. Or is it also "only an idiot" will write?)))
        Just indicate the patent number, this is not classified information, if not, then you're just a n *** ball - a dreamer i.e.)
        If there is a patent, then I will publicly offer my sincere apologies.
        1. 0
          26 October 2022 01: 18
          RF patent №2675309 "Self-loading pistol".

          But some of my views have since changed.
          For example, it became clear that the slope of the barrel for better extraction of the sleeve is not needed. And etc ...
          1. 0
            26 October 2022 02: 10
            Yes, I do, and I offer my deepest apologies.
            Indeed, there is a patent.
            Which, perhaps, proves that it is possible to obtain a patent even for a perpetual motion machine, even for a wheel.
            Now on the topic: as far as I know (and real experts, let me correct me if I'm wrong), the recoil of the vast majority of modern small arms with a lockable bore consists of TWO pulses (actually more, but two main ones). The first - occurs during a shot, when the barrel is locked with a bolt, and due to the insidious laws of physics, it is impossible to get rid of this impulse, in principle, it affects the entire closed system (the bullet and the gases expand - in one direction, all the weapons and the shooter holding it - to another). The second impulse is just when the bolt hits at the end point of its path, after the barrel bore is opened. Here you can just try to reduce it, for example, with a counterweight moving in the opposite direction, as in the "Kovrov" AEK automata, or as they are now called, or, very non-trivially, as the Author suggested, by changing the shutter vector. But, I would like to emphasize that in this case (the gun) is just a secondary impulse, which is negligible in its impact relative to the first. The only real way to reduce the first impulse of the "closed system" gunsmiths and the military of all countries have found and used for a long time: this is, in fact, to reduce the impulse itself, by reducing the caliber. Therefore, the armament of the countries consists mainly of the 9mm system (we are talking about pistols now) which combines both lethal force and an acceptable recoil momentum. And all sorts of elephants like 50AE, and even .45, this is for shooting in the shooting range and at the range, that is, entertaining shooting.
            In general, the idea is interesting, approximately like the fifth wheel of a cart, but it has no practical meaning, which is generally proved by the lack of attempts to somehow compensate for the recoil in modern pistols. As for the low location of the barrel: this is far from a new idea, and has already been implemented in many places, it makes sense and practical application is more in sports weapons, military and self-defense is not needed.
            1. 0
              26 October 2022 22: 17
              Your opinion is a very characteristic opinion for us, Russia MILITARY (!) amateur.
              I've already seen something like this beyond measure! Exceptions are rare.
              Especially diligently watered me literally NIAGARA MUD WATERFALLS on Facebook, gentlemen-shooters from the Federation of Precision Shooting of Russia, the Federation of Practical Shooting and others like them.
              (By the way, the notorious Mr. Popenker took the most effective part in this mud-slinging... As I was convinced, he, a programmer by education, is extremely weak in technology.)
              What is typical for your brother.
              These people never read any articles there, and if they read once, then up to half. In the question figure out and THINK is abs. not for them - after all, they already "know everything."
              Although in technology - "no boom-boom" (!!).
              For them, abs. it's clear - everything is Russian - one big shit, and we don't know how to do anything.
              But everything is foreign - here they roll their eyes and are hysterical with delight ... Glocks, x-ti-ai, chesets, Phoenixes, Sig-Sauers (Although it’s right - Zig-Sauer ...), etc ...
              Absolutely all inventors are idiots for them. Though, I will make a reservation, I partly och. I share this point of view, because indeed most of the "inventors of pistols" demonstrate an EXTREMELY uncritical, and often insufficiently professional approach to their work. Very often I see the utter nonsense that they preach without considering it with unbiased and strict self-criticism and falling into the "self-deception" of their ideas.

              Now closer to the point.
              You see - you do not understand, but already undertake to judge.
              Why are you fixated on a low barrel (small recoil arm)? In the first article, I wrote, and generally came to the conclusion that this is just a good property. It is not a panacea, because any pistol shakes when fired, and you still need to restore the scope. But in some cases it gives a win.
              Personally, I think the main advantage of this idea is the gain in height by as much as 20 mm (!!) while achieving "sporty" handle ergonomics. And plus a low aiming line (see photo) and a record low center of gravity (improved balance). And all of the above - TOTALLY (!).
              1. 0
                29 October 2022 01: 21
                And as for the pouring of mud by representatives of all possible shooting federations, which, of course, break in weapons less than the author.
                Somewhere I heard this saying:
                If you were called a donkey once, you can hit it in the face, if you called it again, you can give it again, but if you have already been told that you are a donkey for the third time, then you should still look in the mirror, suddenly it is so.
                So, food for thought
      2. 0
        26 October 2022 00: 39
        So write down the patent number, and that's it. Or is it also "only an idiot" will write?)))
        Just indicate the patent number, this is not classified information, if not, then you're just a n *** ball - a dreamer i.e.)
        If there is a patent, then I will publicly offer my sincere apologies.
        1. 0
          26 October 2022 23: 08
          I'll add to what has been said.
          So you say:
          As for the low location of the barrel: this is far from a new idea, and has already been implemented in many places, it makes sense and practical application more in sports weapons, military and for self-defense - not needed.


          Firstly, where, besides "Elien", did you see a pistol with a recoil shoulder about xnumx mm? (now 3 mm, but in variants - up to "minus" 2 mm !)

          Secondly, I want to ask - why do you, like 90% of everyone else, so stubbornly and persistently want to trample into the dirt, smear and destroy this "our", Russian idea?!
          But it allows you to create THE BEST compact pistol in the WORLD?! Our, Russian, domestic!

          Do you give a damn about the honor of Russian weapons, the honor of the Motherland?!

          And thirdly - why is this "military and for self-defense - not needed."??
          What, the military, and even more so for self-defense, is not needed most ergonomic and most compact gun from all existing ??? !!!!
          1. +1
            29 October 2022 01: 14
            Yes, I don’t give a damn whose idea this is RUSSIAN, AMERICAN or ETHIOPIC)))
            It doesn't matter at all. If you are so sure that it will be the BEST EXPLOSIVE SUPER PISTOL in the WORLD, then contact the same Kalashnikov concern, IzhMash, who else makes weapons in the Russian Federation, prepare a report, and try to convince the management to make a sample and conduct tests. If this is indeed such a fine weapon, then at least someone will take it.
            Anything is better than complaining about the "stiffness of thinking." The main argument can be used just the thesis about OUR RUSSIAN BEST PISTOL !!!
            For sim, I bow.
            Good luck and all the best.
            1. 0
              30 October 2022 16: 13
              Yes, just in case...
              I'm already texting 7 years ...(!)
              Four organizations showing interest at the level of Ch. designers and those who supported the idea, do not have the opportunity to implement it due to lack of funding and the economic situation on the CSR market in general...
              The rest - TsNIITOCHMASH, the Kalashnikov Concern, etc. - do not deny in their Conclusions the possibility of implementing the idea.
              But in every possible way, under far-fetched pretexts, they "push" away from her. They do not like any "alien Vikings".
              And they are apparently not financially interested in becoming "world leaders", receiving super-profits, raising the "prestige of the company", "honor and glory" of Russian weapons, and they simply do not want to think about the future ...
              It would seem, from the point of view of common sense, in a competitive environment, each company must turn inside out and stand in line to get an advanced, "innovative" idea for the sake of leadership, profits and, in general, survival in the market.
              But ... In a word, "the inversion of common sense."
              And to generalize, the mechanism of Russia's immunity to advanced ideas in general, and its "pathological" backwardness as a result, the flight of "brains" is revealed.
              All the best.
            2. +1
              30 October 2022 22: 06
              No KK and Izhmash need anything new. They do what there is a production line for, which, by the way, there is nothing to repair, since KK issued a statement about "reducing the hardness of steel to increase the life of machine tools" many years ago.
  32. 0
    3 November 2022 16: 38
    The friction of the metal will be greater and the metal will be eaten faster, then the chatter of mechanisms will appear. Here, the gun will be thrown up less, see how the vector of force - recoil changes, all the recoil will hit in the hand.
    1. +1
      3 November 2022 23: 22
      Have you heard anything about the "Alien" pistol? There, the recoil shoulder is even smaller than mine. beats there all return in your hand?...

      And at the same time - ban car engines. There, each piston makes an average of 100 strokes per second - 50 up and 50 down. How do you say, "Metal will be eaten faster, then a chatter of mechanisms will appear." (And the bearing shells - generally aluminum. Disgrace!!.) And only 500 thousand km go to the overhaul. Well, up to a million plus, some ...

      Have you heard anything about surface hardening, for example, nitrocarburizing? Can you imagine the strength of the bearing raceway??...

      You would be an expert in the State Duma, in the Government ... They need such people there. Not all industry, science and high technology have collapsed yet ...
  33. 0
    14 February 2023 17: 54
    The diagram is cool, but where is the return spring???? If on the barrel, then there should be a free shutter, and here is a movable barrel. Where is the ejector??? In case of a misfire with a ramrod, knock out a cartridge? Then where is the ramrod? From the video it is completely incomprehensible on what trajectory the shutter moves? If the guides are radial - the line of attachment of the shutter to the frame - must also be radial, and it is a broken line of two straight lines. It is impossible to jerk the shutter by the rear part, and by the front in case of a misfire, and in the presence of an ejector, the misfire cartridge will not be ejected. And in the name of what perversion? If you lower the line of the barrel axis, then isn't it easier to take the Browning scheme of 1900 with a return spring above the barrel? But outwardly, the gun on the card looks good, fashionable.
    1. 0
      16 February 2023 14: 50
      I transfer my answer from the comments under the video on YouTube in an edited form.

      Return spring on the barrel.
      Not shown so as not to clutter the picture.
      Locking mechanism - I worked on it for a long time. This option is by far the best of all. It additionally dampens the shutter speed at the end of the rollback by about 30% (!)
      A similar solution was successfully applied by Stechkin on the "Pernach".
      In the video, the design is presented schematically, it is not my plans to disclose the details.

      The extraction of the sleeve here in general is a third-rate issue.
      In this video, I presented my experimental version of extraction.
      Due to the peculiarities of the shutter configuration and layout - with radial guides, the location of the extraction window is preferably from above (strength conditions in the first place).
      But the ejection of the sleeve upwards, like in parabellum, GSh-18, etc. - arrows do not like very much (!).
      Therefore, I worked out this scheme with a forward ejection. (For a long time, about 35 years, I thought about its implementation.)
      Although the GSh has a visor on the ejector, redirecting the sleeve slightly forward, while Yarygin has a small visor with a bevel.
      If, in the old fashioned way, to throw it to the side - I always thought and still think - not the best solution. You can hit a "friendly shooter" with a cartridge case.
      Forward and a little to the side - perfect (!).
      This experimental version of mine is also shown schematically. The sleeve rises forcibly, but I do not disclose the mechanics, although I am sure of it. Pressing the underlying cartridge - helps in the process. Ramp to the top. parts of the breech according to the configuration eliminates pinching in any position of the sleeve.
      There are a number of other positives, eg. the sleeve in the upper position does not immediately fly out, but serves as a "ceiling for the supplied cartridge - in rare cases it is peeled out of the bends (I have a two-row magician without rebuilding - I respect only this type of ammunition supply, because reliability in case of pollution - several times higher (!!) And the capacity of the magician, by the way, is one cartridge more.

      It is necessary to check such an extraction in practice, that's for sure! If it doesn’t work, you will have to do the usual extraction, such as GSH. Well, not a big problem! Might be able to take it a little further...

      The trajectory of the shutter movement along the radius is clearly visible at the end of the video.

      Shutter jerking is possible for the back and for the front.
      Take a closer look at the video - a grip with notches is specially made on the back of the shutter.

      Lowering the barrel axis line according to the Browning scheme of 1900 with a return spring above the barrel will increase the overall height - this is worse.
      Yes, and in the end the same Czechoslovak pistol "Elien" will turn out.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. 0
      18 February 2023 00: 54
      In the comments under the first video, YouTube inexplicably demolished this comment. But fortunately, he remained in the mail.
      Although I consider it completely untrue, and simply extremely amateurish, "for history" and for the sake of justice, I consider it important to leave it here.


      Dmitry Aleksandrovich

      vik111
      Good evening!
      I didn’t answer right away, I carefully read the article Pistol with radial guides. "Russian arc" against stereotypes. Innovation and reality. military review website. There, the benefits are listed point by point, so I will stick to this numbering.

      1. The most important advantage - reducing the height of the gun? Personally, my opinion is that reducing the height is not an advantage, but a design or something. The height can be reduced by shortening the handle. Another thing is due to which the height decreased, with the same height (capacity) of the store - due to the fact that the shutter entered the store itself and if you watch the video with the operation of the automation, you can see that the cartridge falls to a direct feed, from the video it seems that the store is rebuilding, the nose of your words is a double-row store, which means that the shutter will also capture the adjacent cartridge, i.e. 100% inoperability. The store is needed either with rebuilding or single-row or lower the store below, which will increase the height.
      2. Well, yes, the barrel is lower, the recoil shoulder is less, the throwback is less, this is probably the most important advantage. But it must be evaluated in real conditions, and not in millimeters. Those. vvat rate of fire and accuracy, i.e. a bunch of 2 split shots (one after the other). And then calculate the percentage advantage.
      3. I didn’t hold it in my hands, I can’t say anything about the energy economy of holding.
      4. I consider a low aiming line to be a minus, because in real combat conditions, especially at a distance, the hand will block a large part of the field of view, which will make it difficult to aim at a dynamic target.
      5. Balancing means moving the center of gravity rather than vertically, but horizontally, so shifting the CG down will not particularly affect the balancing.
      6. High cartridge feed in a 2-row magazine will not work without rebuilding into a single-row magazine. It is enough to draw a section in the plane of the bottom of the sleeve in the rearmost position of the bolt, it will catch 2 cartridges.
      7. This is just a minus. Because the moment arises even when the bullet moves along the barrels, there is a high probability that the line of sight will be pulled down even before the bullet leaves the barrel. Although the toss will slightly reduce. And it is precisely this moment that will lead to severe wear of the guides.
      8. We repeat, of course, if the toss of the entire pistol decreases, then the toss of sights will also be less tossed.

      Regarding the trigger trigger against the drummer. The drummer can be with a trigger (glock) and without a trigger (luger), the first is bad because the trigger has a large stroke with a significant trigger pull, therefore for sports it is worse than a trigger, where you can adjust the trigger as you wish within a wide range, in principle, shock without a trigger the same, it is less safe than the trigger.

      In total, in my opinion, out of all the advantages, and even that is controversial, there is only one thing - a smaller recoil shoulder, a smaller toss, but it is blocked by a fat minus - the moment of force acting vertically downwards that occurs during the movement of a bullet along the barrel, t.to. the shutter when moving backwards - goes up.
      Well, the external design - the gun looks good, it looks.

      PS Personally, from such homegrown "experts" covers me "universal horror" !!!