Who are you, sixth generation combat aircraft?

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In recent years, many people have asked themselves the question: what should the next generation aircraft be like? It seems to be even premature, since the fifth generation is just taking off, and we are already talking about the sixth.

Ничего подобного.



Let's do it first historical excursion into the past and go through these same generations.

Zero generation



Let's just say: a starting point, but since in general and in particular - the same piston aircraft with a different type of engine, it is problematic to call the first one.

Aircraft created in the period 1938/1939 - 1947/1948, including the years of the Second World War. Straight wing, non-afterburning turbojet engines, subsonic speed. No radar, no guided weapons. The armament consisted of cannons and machine guns, as well as unguided rockets.


Examples: Messerschmitt Me-262, MiG-9, Lockheed F-80, Yak-15, Gloucester Meteor, McDonnell F2H Banshee.

First generation



Aircraft created in 1949-1955. The wing became swept, the speed came close to sound (individual representatives, like the F-100 Super Saber, could exceed it). The radar was still absent, the armament remained at the level of the zero generation.


Examples: Yak-25, MiG-15, F-86 "Saber", F-3 "Demon", Dassault "Hurricane".

The second generation



Aircraft born from 1955 to 1965. The wing became triangular (for some) instead of swept, turbojet engines received an afterburner, almost all aircraft in afterburner took speeds up to 2M. However, cruising speed remained subsonic. Radars and guided missiles appeared on aircraft weapon.


Examples: MiG-19, Su-15, Dassault Mirage III, Saab J-29 Tunnan, North American F-100 Super Saber.

Third Generation



From 1960 to 1980. There are no fundamental differences from second-generation aircraft. Engines have become more powerful, speeds have increased, radars have become more powerful. Long-range and medium-range guided missiles have appeared, but these are already specific weapons. I emphasize that there are no fundamental differences between second and third generation aircraft. Americans feel the same way.


Examples: MiG-21, MiG-23, Su-19, Mirage F1, Tornado, F-4 Phantom II, F-5, Saab Viggen.

Fourth generation



The years of aircraft creation are from 1975 to 2010. Here we see real differences from previous generations. Double-circuit turbojet engines appeared, EDSU (electronic remote control system), aircraft maneuverability became much better due to the implementation of the principle of dynamic instability, aircraft became multi-purpose.

Moreover, the division into 4, 4+ and 4++ appeared. Aircraft of the 4th generation, the modernization or further development of which brings their characteristics and efficiency closer to the fighters of the fifth generation, received category 4+. Aircraft, most of the characteristics of which are close to the requirements for fifth-generation fighters (except for stealth), ended up in the 4++ category. For example, 4++ fighters are characterized by cruising non-afterburning supersonic speed, which is a mandatory requirement for 5th generation aircraft.


examples:
4: Su-27, MiG-29, F-14, F-15, Mirage 2000.
4+: Su-30, Rafal, Typhoon, J-10.
4++: Su-35.

Fifth generation



It is customary to refer to the fifth generation of aircraft developed at the end of the 20th century and implemented in metal in the 21st century.

The main differences from the fourth generation machines are the principles of stealth, implemented using appropriate technologies and the placement of weapons inside the fuselage. In addition, these aircraft are characterized by supersonic flight without afterburner and more advanced avionics, radar with AFAR.


Examples: F-22, F-35, J-20, Su-57.

So, we see that from generation to generation (except for 2-3) there is a cardinal improvement of aircraft. What needs to change in order for the sixth generation to really differ from the fifth not on paper?

In fact, not so much modern designers can offer in this regard. If we discard the improvement in the capabilities of sensors, new types of weapons, then we get what kind of picture:
- stealth is being replaced by stealth, based on the use of new radar-absorbing coatings and aircraft shapes;
- effective combat capability at all speeds, from subsonic speed to several Machs;
- optional piloting, that is, the possibility of full remote control;
- network-centric abilities.

Almost 90% of military experts in the field paint such a picture. aviation in the world. But there are those who do not quite agree with this alignment, such as, for example, our Vladimir Mikhailov, head of the Directorate of Military Programs of the KLA.

Based on the statements of those who do not fully support the generally accepted development trend, let's try to look at the real aircraft of the future from a slightly different angle.

The SVO, which is now taking place in Ukraine, has shown that a war in the image and likeness of the 20th century can take place not only between states that are backward in terms of armaments. Today, there are few planes in the sky over Ukraine, and both sides use them very carefully. The reason for this was the saturation of the line of interaction with modern air defense systems available to both sides.


And - as an option - the use of aviation has declined sharply. And therefore, in light of the fact that air defense systems have become, well, a very strong obstacle in the way of aircraft, the emergence of a new generation does not look hasty, but a completely justified process. Otherwise, you will soon get a picture of the use of aircraft only where there are no modern air defense systems. Otherwise, pictures like this picture from the Russian Ministry of Defense will become a familiar picture:


A modern aircraft must be able to do such paramount things as avoiding a strike from an air defense system. This is perhaps the most important property.

How to do this?

first: the aircraft must see the air defense system earlier and destroy it. It is very difficult, because a ground-based radar will always be more powerful than an aircraft one, albeit larger in size. And she will see further than her aviation colleague. This is a fact that will have to be reckoned with for now.

Second: Aircraft may be invisible to ground radar. This is also very doubtful, the development of modern antenna systems is likely to negate all tricks in terms of invisibility. Yes, the planes will be inconspicuous, but the fact that they will be detected, the farther the better, is also a fact. AFAR is just the beginning, the future belongs to multi-band radars, the combined antennas of which in some range in the end, but the aircraft will be detected.

The third: the same, American "What will not catch up with us, it will not be able to destroy." Hypersonic. If an air defense missile can develop a speed of 5M, and the aircraft flies at the same speed, then, alas, the missile will not have a chance to catch up and destroy the aircraft. Yes, there will be chances on colliding courses, but alas, on all the others. Even if the plane just goes supersonic, and then starts accelerating from 2M to 5M, it will still be able to get away from the rocket. And do not forget about how long the rocket engine will work.

Fourth: supermaneuverability. This is ours. What Russian pilots can do with their planes sometimes causes a misunderstanding of physical processes. More precisely, there is an understanding of what the plane does, but how and due to what - no. Many believe that all this is ceremonial nonsense, however, Alexander Pokryshkin was once laughed at his “hooks”. Until, due to these maneuvers, he began to shoot down from positions that others could not even dream of. It's the same here, to "break" the plane in flight so that it can get away from the missile, passing it above or below itself - that's the same thing. It will be problematic for the rocket to turn around and attack again, since the fuel supply is limited. So, he left.

In total, we have on our agenda as many as THREE areas for the development of the aircraft of the future. Of course, all three directions will have certain common properties, for example, multifunctionality. A fighter-bomber is already a versatile aircraft in itself, capable of solving various combat missions, but if it is still capable of intercepting enemy aircraft due to its high-speed qualities, why not?

Composite materials, which will facilitate, but not weaken the design, are also very useful. How far they can make the plane invisible to radar beams is a question, but sooner or later it will get its answer.

Optional piloting, that is, controlling the aircraft from an external source, whether it be an operator or a computer, is possible, although it complicates the electronic filling of the aircraft. But the fact that in the near future there will be aircraft-drones, unmanned, but no less dangerous, no doubt. They are really more profitable than existing UAVs, if only because the combat load drones calculated in kilograms, and aircraft - in tons.

Network-centric stuff. Perhaps this is the most significant feature of the sixth generation aircraft, which will distinguish them from the previous ones. In itself, the idea of ​​transmitting data on the battlefield directly to the performers is good. If an aircraft can easily indicate a target for artillery or MLRS, and an infantry reconnaissance patrol can independently and - most importantly - instantly indicate a target for a strike to an aircraft in the air - this is the interaction that will bring the aircraft to a really new level.


These are general settings. Next, we will have particulars, that is, a division in three directions.

1. Stealth technology stealth and invisibility. The weakest direction, since it has already become clear: the planes will be visible. The only question is how. But in principle, this is not important, the very moment when the radar can detect the aircraft and give target designation on it is important. And they will find the plane by Doppler vortices, by the thermal trace, they will find it not at the main frequency of the radar, but at overtones - the main thing they see. It is impossible to create an aircraft entirely from plastic or completely cover it with miracle materials that will hide it from the “eyes” of radars. So far, this is technologically impossible, and when technology takes the next step forward, it remains to be seen what the radar designers will come up with.

Most likely, stealth technology will be more useful for conventional bombers. It is useful for a fighter-bomber to be stealthy, but other qualities that are incompatible with stealth may be more useful for him.

2. Hypersound. Even if a fighter-bomber can use hypersonic speeds in the “catch up” and “run away” modes, this will already be a breakthrough. The variant currently being worked on in the US, a fighter-drone capable of flying at speeds up to Mach 10, is a very serious project. A reusable hypersonic vehicle capable of delivering weapons to enemy territory several times is very serious, and most importantly, cheaper than disposable weapons (rockets, gliders).

A person can fly an aircraft at speeds above 3 km/h. This has already been proven. How effective it will be, say, for 000 km / h is still a question. And to answer it, it is worth waiting for the completion of the implementation of American projects.

It is clear that hypersound and stealth are hardly compatible things. Many experts in the US openly say that all these coatings that scatter radar beams are very delicate and are unlikely to withstand the temperature regimes of hypersound. There's still friction against the air is very, very strong.

Well, if the Americans themselves say this, then it is worth accepting their opinion.

3. Super maneuverability. This is what they do not have and what we have. Here, even opinions in Russian circles differ, someone believes that a modern fighter does not need maneuverability, the main thing is to see it earlier and launch missiles that fly further.

There is a lot of controversy here. Long-range missiles are great, but those who advocate them usually forget that they are easier to detect. Accordingly, and take measures to care or deceive.

The evolution of an aircraft at a speed that a rocket will not be able to repeat for several reasons is the same way to deal with it as interference or IR traps.

Total. If we are talking about the Russian Aerospace Forces, then the next generation aircraft, about which people from the UAC have already said that “work is underway,” may look like this:

1. Continuation of the line of highly maneuverable aircraft with stealth elements, as the best, which is the enemy of the good.
2. Hypersonic devices are also quite possible, we will be able to develop, and then the appearance of two classes of aircraft is real.

As for the Americans, who have been working on a scramjet engine for a long time, and, accordingly, on an aircraft equipped with this engine, the appearance of two classes of aircraft in them is also quite realistic.

It is doubtful that the US will abandon the idea of ​​developing a new aircraft that does not receive all the developments in the field of stealth. Here, American designers have really done a great job.

Work on hypersonic vehicles may also sooner or later end with the appearance of a combat vehicle capable of flying at speeds up to 10M.


Thus, instead of light and heavy fighters in air fleets countries (pairs of MiG-29s and Su-27s, F-15s and F-16s, and so on), pairs of slightly different properties may appear: a hypersonic interceptor-bomber and an inconspicuous fighter-bomber.
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  1. -10
    29 August 2022 05: 10
    5th generation.
    Additionally, these aircraft are characterized by supersonic flight without afterburner and more advanced avionics, radar with AFAR. Examples: ...., F-35......
    And this, on a stick, exactly matches?
    - effective fighting capacity at all speeds, from subsonic speed up to several Machs;
    No, I don't mind if they said... request feel
    1. +5
      29 August 2022 05: 41
      It is clear that hypersound and stealth are hardly compatible things.

      Super maneuverability and hypersound - that's what is incompatible.
      1. +17
        29 August 2022 07: 45
        There is only one answer - UAV, massive, cheap from plastic, from parts of mass-produced electronics. This is already being partially implemented. For pilot-controlled aircraft, only special aircraft will remain.
        The main task is air strikes on positions, and not actual air battles for superiority.
        1. The UAV copes well with this (aimed air strikes), unlike manned vehicles, the loss of an UAV is not the loss of an expensive pilot.
        2. UAVs are much cheaper to manufacture, for example, there is no catapult, dashboard, oxygen system, etc...
        3. The operator (pilot) of the UAV can control several devices in complete safety.
        4. No overload limit.
        1. -6
          29 August 2022 13: 15
          6th generation is a very distant future
          and the strategic bombers of the new Tu-160M ​​construction is which generation (?)
          By the way, they will carry Air-to-Air self-defense missiles
          even if you estimate approximately - 16 anti-missiles on 1 side
          link Tu-160M ​​(2) will be able to reflect the interception of 32 SAM air defense systems
          Long-range air defense systems are not considered. Carcasses will definitely not enter their zone
          the Soviet division of the Buk-M1 medium-range air defense system consists of 3 batteries
          1 battery: 2 SDA and 1 ROM x 4 missiles ready for launch = 12 missiles
          that is, 2 Tu-160Ms are guaranteed to beat off (32) from a full BC of 2 Buk-M1 batteries (24)
          or fight off the interception of 4 NATO fighters with 6 V-V missiles = 24 / Tu-160 - 32
          up to the 6th generation - still very far away
        2. 0
          31 August 2022 23: 29
          The operator (pilot) of the UAV can control several devices in complete safety.

          I was surprised to discover that for one UAV you need 2-3 operators. I also thought it was the other way around.
      2. 0
        30 August 2022 15: 40
        As well as stealth. In hypersound, no RPM will last long. They need ablative materials based on ceramics or silicon carbide. Maybe something more heat resistant.
      3. 0
        31 August 2022 04: 27
        did you decide to engage in super-maneuverability at hypersonic speed? i.e. at the same time? however genius

        and if at the same time it is impossible, then it is not necessary, yes?))))))))))))))
        1. 0
          31 August 2022 06: 46
          Quote: Drt Fd
          did you decide to engage in super-maneuverability at hypersonic speed? i.e. at the same time? however genius

          You, noname, are definitely not a genius, but even a woodpecker in some places.
    2. 0
      29 August 2022 12: 06
      And this, on a stick, exactly matches?
      Options A and B with weapons on the internal suspension - yes
  2. Kim
    -2
    29 August 2022 05: 12
    in the eyes of a far from - quite balanced article
    it is not clear why the "zero" generation is WW2
    back in WW1 there were air battles and air bombing
    1. 0
      29 August 2022 05: 56
      Quote from kim
      in the eyes of a far from - quite balanced article
      it is not clear why the "zero" generation is WW2
      back in WW1 there were air battles and air bombing
      Aircraft created in the period 1938/1939 - 1947/1948, including the years of the Second World War. ..... non-afterburning turbojet engines, ......
      Clear? hi
      1. Kim
        +1
        29 August 2022 08: 20
        Nope
        I don't mind, "zero" is a rather arbitrary concept
        I would start with Farmanov, Nieuport, Sopvich and Muromets :)
  3. +6
    29 August 2022 05: 31
    I couldn't read everything. Multibookaf. For the first lines:
    I emphasize that there are no fundamental differences between second and third generation aircraft.
    those. Does the MiG-19 differ from the MiG-15 much more than from the MiG-21? Or is the Phantom no different from the F-100? Yeah!
    And where did you put the whole era of variable sweep wing? Or do they not fit into your system at all? F-14 to the fourth generation, as it were, far-fetched. Yes, however, and Mirage-2000.
    1. 0
      29 August 2022 12: 15
      The F-14 is not drawn, it is considered the pioneer of the 4th generation.
      1. -2
        29 August 2022 14: 19
        It may be considered. Only, that's not very. What does he have from there? Prodigy rocket? So you can attach it anywhere. The MiG loses to the 25th in all respects (Although there are nuances here, the MiG does not fly from the deck, and is not included in any generation). The maximum on which you can pull the F-14 - 3+
        1. 0
          30 August 2022 15: 31
          What's from there? Innovative for those times, a scheme with a CIS, an integrated layout (yes, yes, not the first Su-27 in this), radar, avionics, maneuverability is extremely worthy for such a shed, excellent air handling characteristics. In its role as a long-range interceptor of the air defense system, the AUG is an extremely breakthrough machine. The TF-30 engines let him down, and when the F-110 appeared, it was already too late.
        2. 0
          31 August 2022 12: 38
          Bobik012:
          The MiG-25/31 and F-14 are vehicles of completely different classes - strategic ultra-high-speed air defense interceptors and a carrier-based maneuverable multi-role fighter-bomber. And they do different tasks. It's like comparing a Formula 1 car and a mining truck
          1. 0
            31 August 2022 12: 59
            I apologize to correct (if you don't want to, don't read) MiG-25 and F-14 interceptor fighters. Only F-14 deck. He could not perform any other tasks, he did not carry the necessary weapons, and the maneuverability of the F-14 was like that of a brick. Maybe you confused him with something?
            1. 0
              31 August 2022 13: 54
              To implement all the "dancing" maneuvering characteristics of the F-14, he lacked an engine. The TF-30 was the best solution at the time the aircraft appeared, although the engine was frankly so-so: low throttle response, weak thrust-to-weight ratio, and a tendency to surge. Modernization in the form of a replacement for the F-110 engines fully revealed the characteristics of the Tomket, but it was corny late: in those years, R&D was actively carried out under the ATF program, within the framework of which a carrier-based aircraft was also planned (project N / ATF-A aka A / X -AF / X) and the fleet wanted a new toy, cooler.
              1. 0
                31 August 2022 14: 52
                f-14 lacked everything. We would solve the problem with the motor, get out with a glider, then with something else. It was just a bad plane. Only very expensive. He did not belong to any fourth generation (even the MiG-25 is not stuffed there), and only the overestimated CV of the Americans puts him there. In fact, even the MiG-23 in the Iran-Iraq war was a nightmare.
                The ancestor of generation 4, still f-15, and the integral layout in the normal sense of the concept appeared on the Su-27. Let's still be fair
                1. -1
                  31 August 2022 15: 01
                  f-14 lacked everything. We would solve the problem with the motor, get out with a glider, then with something else. It was just a bad plane.
                  These are your thoughts only, with little relation to reality.
                  In fact, even the MiG-23 in the Iran-Iraq war was a nightmare.
                  Google "Fight in the Gulf of Sidra". it will become clear who has scammed whom. And Iranian F-14s are still flying by the way. Such bad planes...
                  Quote: Bobik012
                  integral layout in the normal sense of the concept appeared on the Su-27
                  The contribution to the lifting force of the F-14 fuselage is 40%, there is no integral layout, yes ... At least read Paralay, or something ...
                  1. 0
                    31 August 2022 15: 14
                    In fact, even the MiG-23 in the Iran-Iraq war was a nightmare.

                    Google "Fight in the Gulf of Sidra"

                    in the elderberry garden ....
                  2. 0
                    31 August 2022 15: 15
                    You seemed to me an informed interlocutor. No... It got carried away into propaganda. It's a pity
                    1. 0
                      1 September 2022 09: 40
                      You also seemed ... But your unreasonable hatred and equally unfounded accusation of propaganda left an end to further discussion.
                      1. 0
                        1 September 2022 09: 55
                        Goodbye. I do not hold evil. I don't give any cons
                2. -2
                  17 September 2022 09: 37
                  The fourth-generation integral layout first appeared on the F-16. Our first was the MiG-29. Sukhoi, having crap with the original layout of the T-10, then practically copied the layout of the MiG-29, and called himself the Su-27.
            2. 0
              31 August 2022 16: 28
              Bobik012
              You are wrong. The F-14 had a dedicated bomber version of the Bombcat, which was used in Iraq. The MiG-25 and MiG-31, by the way, also have strike variants of the MiG-25RB / RBT and MiG-31K. The F-14 is optimized specifically for deck takeoff. This is a multi-mode integrated circuit aircraft, and, by the way, with good maneuverability, precisely due to the variable sweep of the wing. By the way, it was used extremely rarely with Phoenix long-range missiles, and, mainly ... Iranians! And, in the main, they carried short-range and medium-range missiles (Sidewinder and Sparrow), like the lighter F-15/16/18. By the way, the American Navy was very sorry that the F-14s were decommissioned. The MiG-25/31 are high-speed long-range interceptors, not designed for maneuverable air combat at all (in the guise of the F-14). Their task is to intercept at high altitudes, speeds and ranges. If the tasks of the F-14 are to defend an aircraft carrier in the near and middle zones, and to strike along the coast, then the task of the MiG-25/31 is to protect against almost any air targets, moreover, at distant lines. As well as reconnaissance at high speeds and altitudes, and bombing strikes from high altitudes and speeds. You can not compare these aircraft in any way. And their combat use was very different - each showed itself from the best side. And do not scold the F-14. It was the first serial integrated circuit fighter with unique characteristics. Every aircraft has flaws. And watch less movies like "Top Gun". It's stupid for the F-14 to fight in close combat with the F-5 and A-4, although they did in the movie, and pretty well. The MiG-25 almost never fought in close combat (excluding the fight with the Predator in Iraq)
              1. 0
                1 September 2022 03: 59
                Didn't want to answer. You have written a lot. OK.
                The shock version of the F-14 appeared later with the aim of adapting it at least somewhere. Not the best option.
                Both the MiG-25 and F-14 are high-speed long-range interceptors. Only the MiG-25 is normal, and the F-14 is not very good.
                The F-14 is not designed for maneuverable air combat at all (maybe it was designed as planned, but it didn’t grow together), don’t let the drop-down wing scare you, it’s only for takeoff / landing (they say it still makes it possible to patrol for a long time, but this is inaccurate).
                And there was no integrated circuit. And the fuselage of any aircraft provides part of the lift. This does not make it integral.
                And yet, yes, everyone has flaws, it's just that in the F-14 they greatly outweigh the advantages. It just failed. It happens.
                By the way. You will laugh, but I have never watched the film about the pilot Tom Cruise in its entirety
                1. 0
                  5 September 2022 11: 55
                  Bobik012
                  Actually, I'm not drowning for the F-14 - an interesting aircraft, but, initially, raw, which was never brought to mind. A good article about the F-14 was here: https://topwar.ru/30807-palubnyy-istrebitel-f-14-tomket.html

                  I'm talking about the fact that initially, the F-14 and MiG-25 (and its descendant MiG-31) were designed for completely different purposes, they initially included completely different solutions and therefore it is incorrect to compare them. And even if we assume abstractly, if they met in an air battle, it is not known who would win. It would most likely be a draw. But against the MiG-31, the F-14 would have no chance! More precisely, the chances would be only with the exchange of Phoenixes and P-33s, which both could evade.
                  If the F-14, in essence, is a development of the F-111, only with integral elements and a powerful "board" with long-range missiles, moreover, the aircraft is quite "classic", then the MiG-25 was originally unique in its decisions, unique to such an extent, that even now nothing close to the MiG-25/31 is visible and is not expected. The MiG-25 is a high-speed and high-altitude interceptor with unique characteristics. Can you say the same about the F-14? Its uniqueness was only in the radar and missiles, which it lost with the advent of the MiG-31. But the MiG-31 has not lost the speed and altitude qualities of its ancestor. However, it is absolutely impossible to imagine either a MiG-25 or a MiG-31 on any deck.
                  By the way, about the integrated circuit)) If in the classical circuit, where wings are glued to a round or oval fuselage, and then the wings create lift, and the fuselage is only a source of Cx - resistance force, then with an integrated circuit, the entire fuselage is actually a wing and creates lift. Apart from numerous experimental flying wings, the first production aircraft of the integrated circuit was just the F-14. The next was the F-16. Well, after that, the MiG-29 and Su-27 appeared
                  1. 0
                    5 September 2022 17: 12
                    Again, you have a lot of text. I will not refute everything, because it is useless, you BELIEVE! Adherents of sects are not interested in arguments.
                    Let's talk about the original. The purpose of the F-14 and MiG-25 is absolutely identical - an interceptor fighter, only the F-14 is deck-based. But the solutions, as you rightly noted, were used differently. Which were better, history has shown.
                    The further use of these aircraft for other than their intended purpose - strike, reconnaissance, etc., does not change the essence
                    1. 0
                      5 September 2022 23: 23
                      I just happened to dig into the MiG-25. And on the F-14, I saw, however, only the technical documentation, but still, this is enough to be very surprised at the comparison of such different aircraft
                      1. 0
                        5 September 2022 23: 48
                        Apparently that's why he couldn't. Missed the concept. On the other hand, they tried to launch such a contraption from the deck, to shove the unimpressible. It didn't work out very well
                    2. 0
                      6 September 2022 13: 53
                      You accuse me of sectarianism, but you do not want to see an objective picture (and I am for objectivity). The MiG-25, for all its merits, did not completely solve the problem of an air defense interceptor. In addition to it, I had to maintain a whole zoo of Su-15s, Tu-128s, and even MiG-21s and MiG-23s (and these MiGs were not originally planned as interceptors!). In fact, the MiG-31 became a work on the mistakes of the MiG-25, and it was the MiG-31 that was able to close the sky of the country. The MiG-25 did not even cope with the task of fighting the SR-71. They were able to drive away only the MiG-31. Analysis of the pros and cons of the MiG-25 is the topic of a separate large article. By the way, the reconnaissance version of the MiG-25 was originally planned, and according to the results of local wars, it turned out to be even more successful than the interceptor. All reconnaissance missions were completed, not a single scout was shot down, but the MiG-25 interceptors suffered combat losses. Yes, I agree, due to misuse. As for longevity - the F-14s, by the way, are still flying in the Iranian Air Force, and the Iranians are quite satisfied with them. The MiG-25 arrived before the F-14 and left before it, transferring its tasks to the MiG-31. In my opinion, both the F-14 and the MiG-31 fulfilled their roles quite successfully, both aircraft had their shortcomings and limitations, but each was successful in its own "environmental niche". And comparing them is like comparing a buggy and a Formula 1 car. By the way, the air battles between the MiG-25 and F-14 ended, in fact, with a draw. Here is an article about their duel for a snack: https://inosmi.ru/20220904/samolety-255876799.html и https://topwar.ru/159067-prevoshodstvo-f-14-nad-mig-25-ne-vyzyvaet-somnenij-schitajut-v-ssha.html
                      1. +1
                        6 September 2022 14: 21
                        I will not question your credible sources. Conversation about nothing. Goodbye.
                        By the way, spells like, "you are silent, then there is nothing to answer" do not work on me, do not bother
                      2. 0
                        7 September 2022 19: 12
                        For God's sake))) By the way, I threw only what came to hand, but once I rummaged through the library of the Aviation Institute))) It's a pity, then there was nothing to take copies of ...
                      3. -1
                        8 September 2022 03: 46
                        once I rummaged through the library of the aviation institute
                        Is it a spy?
                        Joke
                      4. 0
                        10 September 2022 15: 34
                        The spy differs from the collector in that the spy works for someone, and the collector only for himself. laughing At that time I was just a student
      2. 0
        29 August 2022 21: 23
        Well, why didn't you watch "Top Gun"? ) Even there, the attitude towards him as an outdated pepelatsu is visible.
        1. 0
          30 August 2022 15: 34
          There he is just a star and the main character (popularly - GG).
        2. 0
          31 August 2022 16: 30
          Yah! The US Navy never found a replacement for the F-14. F / A-18s turned out to be better only in terms of maneuverability and 2 times cheaper (probably this played a role)
  4. +3
    29 August 2022 05: 31
    aircraft may be invisible to ground radar

    This will never happen...
  5. +8
    29 August 2022 05: 48
    A hypersonic reusable vehicle capable of delivering weapons to enemy territory several times is very serious, and most importantly, cheaper than disposable weapons (missiles, gliders).
    belay How interesting. recourse Author, can you tell me how many times Shuttle or Buran is cheaper disposable missiles? feel hi And the problem will be equal in complexity.
    1. 0
      29 August 2022 11: 21
      1. It depends on which rocket to compare. If with Saturn, then the Shuttle is cheaper. And the Delta in a heavy configuration is also more expensive.
      2. Reusable Falcon is cheaper than its disposable counterparts
      1. 0
        29 August 2022 14: 22
        Reusable Falcon is cheaper than its disposable counterparts

        I understand that the phrase is hackneyed, but "where does the infa come from?" Vague doubts torment me. It seems that reality did not live up to expectations.
        1. 0
          29 August 2022 14: 42
          Quote: Bobik012
          Reusable Falcon is cheaper than its disposable counterparts

          I understand that the phrase is hackneyed, but "where does the infa come from?" Vague doubts torment me. It seems that reality did not live up to expectations.

          The reality did not live up to expectations so much that we, at least in the pictures, are designing something similar, and the Chinese, in practice, are already working out a vertical landing.
          1. -2
            29 August 2022 15: 14
            All this has been designed and worked out for 60 years. (At least, in my childhood I saw similar projects) In real life, nothing cheaper than the Union has been invented so far. As, however, and more reliable. I'm not saying that Americans are stupid. Just having money allows you to do bullshit (or is that also stupidity?). Something tells me that there will be a familiar story with the falcon - they will advertise it, they will remove the loot, and then they will quietly hush it up
            1. -2
              29 August 2022 15: 34
              1. Falcon - a launch vehicle of a heavier class than the Soyuz. Even if it is more expensive (which I personally strongly doubt), then it fights off with a carrying capacity.
              2. The reliability of the Falcons is not inferior to the reliability of the Unions.
              3. This is the most frequently launched launch vehicle in the world. So yes, Space X is making money, but not just like that, but by launching a payload into space.
              1. -5
                29 August 2022 16: 03
                Ugh! Tired. Goodbye
                1. -4
                  29 August 2022 16: 35
                  Inconvenient truth? laughing
                  All the best
                  1. -4
                    29 August 2022 20: 33
                    If the Americans with their rocket are so open, then why are they so concerned only about the statement that we are leaving the ISS project ... just a statement, and they are already in suspense. From your point of view, they should generally be on the drum. But in fact, there is no.
                    1. -1
                      30 August 2022 09: 48
                      Correction of the ISS is carried out by Russian ships and on the Russian segment of the station. The issue is solvable, but extremely inconvenient, especially in light of the fact that the United States is not going to use the ISS indefinitely.
                      1. -1
                        30 August 2022 10: 54
                        And what ... they will twist their rockets, they have super-duper ... laughing
                      2. -3
                        30 August 2022 11: 39
                        Your words demonstrate your complete incompetence in this matter. fool
                      3. 0
                        30 August 2022 13: 44
                        And here almost all the same "experts" ... it is unlikely that you yourself belong to the space industry. laughing
                      4. -2
                        30 August 2022 14: 30
                        I do not belong, but I know that the correction of the ISS orbit is carried out by spacecraft, and not by "rockets". And if you confuse these two concepts, then further conversation with you on this topic is pointless.
                      5. 0
                        30 August 2022 16: 08
                        In general, since you are so principled, then if you please, say not a rocket, but a launch vehicle carrying a spacecraft. hi In your opinion, it turns out that their spaceships suck compared to ours laughing
                      6. -1
                        30 August 2022 16: 54
                        1. I did not accidentally write "rocket" in quotation marks, this is a direct quote from your words.
                        2. I didn’t say anything like that, it’s nothing more than your conjectures. The American Cygnus did just over a month ago. Another thing is that the swan is imprisoned under Artares, who flies twice a year. However, if the task arises, then the dragon will raise
                      7. -1
                        30 August 2022 18: 34
                        You contradict yourself ... then they are concerned about you because we are adjusting the orbit of the ISS, then they themselves will do it without any problems ... request
                      8. -1
                        31 August 2022 09: 58
                        You seem to have a memory like a goldfish. I wrote "The issue is solvable, but extremely inconvenient"
                      9. -2
                        31 August 2022 14: 13
                        That is, you admit that the Yankees are OK in parts, but in the complex they are not so hot? laughing
                      10. 0
                        31 August 2022 14: 29
                        You have a very strange logic.
                        They had no such task. The problem appeared - they solved it. What's wrong?
                      11. 0
                        31 August 2022 15: 22
                        Did they solve them? If they decided that they wouldn’t care, we would stay in the ISS project or leave. But something is not on the drum for them.
                      12. 0
                        31 August 2022 15: 59
                        They solved them, but this is not the best option, and above I wrote why. Take the trouble to re-read and try to understand what is written. I believe you can do it!
                        PS. And in general, why did you decide that they were not on the drum?
                      13. -1
                        31 August 2022 16: 22
                        The fact that they themselves didn’t care about the drum ... I read you and the conclusion comes out exactly the cat I gave. Individually, everything is OK, but in the complex, not so much :)
                      14. 0
                        31 August 2022 16: 55
                        1. They expressed regret. Usual diplomatic courtesy.
                        2. Alas, my faith in you was in vain. All the best, I do not intend to throw pearls in front of you further.
                  2. The comment was deleted.
                    1. The comment was deleted.
  6. +1
    29 August 2022 05: 53
    Judging by the air defense, aviation does not have much influence on the hostilities, the air defense has won. Maybe planes and helicopters worth billions can fight against the armed formations of third world countries, but the confrontation of modern armies does not allow you to use all the advantages of aviation. The sixth-generation aircraft is needed for the rapid delivery of the appropriate air-to-ground missiles to a range of action, and without unnecessary super-maneuverability, but with short takeoff and landing and at supersonic cruising speed. A sort of flying transport container for high-precision missiles to increase the range of these same missiles.
    1. +6
      29 August 2022 06: 43
      Or even better, a suborbital aircraft that can stay at the border of the atmosphere and space for a long time, have a large number of missiles on board that, if desired, can hit satellites / ballistic missiles before entering the atmosphere. This is really the 6th generation, who will make that one and will rule all the rest
      1. +5
        29 August 2022 07: 16
        Quote from: newtc7
        a suborbital aircraft that can stay at the border of the atmosphere and space for a long time, have a large number of missiles on board ..

        And without a person on board.
        Suborbital or not, the sixth generation will be unmanned, whatever one may say. A man on the fifth is already a weak link ...
        1. -1
          29 August 2022 07: 38
          Yes, I forgot to indicate in my comment that the sixth generation is an unmanned aircraft.
      2. +2
        29 August 2022 08: 58
        Or even better, a suborbital aircraft that can stay at the border of the atmosphere and space for a long time, have a large number of missiles on board that, if desired, can hit satellites / ballistic missiles before entering the atmosphere.


        Yeah ... And so that he can peel potatoes. laughing
        If you are already dreaming, do not deny yourself anything.
    2. -1
      29 August 2022 09: 10
      Judging by the air defense, aviation does not have a special effect on military operations, air defense won

      The technological revolution pushed back the aircraft and brought forward the UAV. Alas, it is...
      1. -1
        29 August 2022 20: 35
        As a scout, just as a scout. Attack UAVs are very good targets for advanced air defense.
    3. -2
      29 August 2022 12: 42
      The problem is in the means of suppressing and overcoming air defense. I doubt that the United States in Ukraine would have similar problems or Israel.
    4. +1
      29 August 2022 14: 26
      aviation has no effect on combat operations, air defense won
      Like, not really. Tell that to the infantry. Remove the aircraft and feel the difference. An enemy with aviation, in all respects, takes out an enemy who has a threefold numerical superiority, but does not have aviation
    5. 0
      31 August 2022 16: 33
      Yeah, but not a single war can do without aviation. And even Ukrainians are trying to fly. And in the last two sentences you directly described the F-35. So how is it? Is he doing his job?
      1. -2
        31 August 2022 16: 36
        Is he doing his job?

        According to the analysis of couch experts, it cannot cope with VO.
  7. +2
    29 August 2022 06: 26
    Who are you, sixth generation combat aircraft?
    Come on ... someone blinds another, new one and adjusts the criteria for it ... for the first time, or something.
    However, they are really ahead of everyone in this topic, in terms of timing, for sure.
    1. +1
      29 August 2022 07: 45
      Too distant a prospect to talk about the timing.
      On August 19, 2022, the US Air Force awarded $975 million in framework contracts to five leading US aerospace companies to develop, on a competitive basis, promising engines under the Next Generation Adaptive Propulsion (NGAP) program for the promising next generation American fighter Next Generation Air Dominance ( NGAD). The contracts were awarded to General Electric, Pratt & Whitney (in partnership with Raytheon Technologies), Boeing, Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman. The contracts include the development, construction and testing of prototype engines and are calculated until July 2032.

      https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4576157.html
      1. 0
        29 August 2022 14: 30
        Well, they will build a miracle, such as the F-117 or F-35. Called the sixth or seventh generation. And after a while they will fall asleep. F-15 Forever!
        1. -1
          29 August 2022 16: 47
          The NWO showed just that the "Forever" or Su 27/30 chances are just not enough. 35 or even 117 with the first stealth inclinations will have more chances here. (they will leave a part for the wars with the Papuans, as it is cheaper) hi
          1. -2
            29 August 2022 20: 39
            First you need to bring the f35 to mind for this so that it is forward ... but as they say in YESA, this plane is not at all enthusiastic
          2. The comment was deleted.
            1. 0
              31 August 2022 16: 33
              F-117 - fourth generation aircraft
              1. -1
                1 September 2022 04: 03
                F-117 plane? However...
                1. 0
                  4 September 2022 23: 15
                  I also consider it an iron with wings))) But, seriously, an integrated circuit aircraft, with a load-bearing fuselage and a V-tail. For it does not fit any other category of aircraft))
          3. 0
            31 August 2022 13: 58
            And the NWO is the war with the Papuans. Both in terms of air defense and air force, the Armed Forces of Ukraine are frankly a weak adversary. Soviet technology of the 70s-80s. Yes, and in terms of the campaign, it painfully resembles the "trench fuss" of the First World War, rather than the swift strikes and isolation of the database area from the doctrines of the same 80s-90s.
  8. -1
    29 August 2022 06: 41
    Can someone explain why everyone is avoiding the most obvious option to deal with anti-aircraft and any missiles in general, namely to take on board 20-30 short-range light missiles that could shoot down incoming missiles?! What is the problem with this technology and why hasn't it been implemented so far?! After all, it looks really the simplest and even the most effective of all of the above.
    1. +1
      29 August 2022 11: 22
      1. Where to hang all this?
      2. How much will it all weigh?
      1. -2
        29 August 2022 14: 38
        newtc7
        1. Where to hang all this?
        2. How much will it all weigh?

        I will continue:
        3. Can it hit an anti-aircraft missile? (Do you know her speed?)
        4. Why such a plane, if it can only defend itself? (that if it can)
        5. Why are all around such fools, and only one is smart?
        Maybe before you write idiotic comments, you should at least study the topic a little so as not to look so stupid ...
        1. -2
          29 August 2022 22: 27
          Quote: Bobik012
          newtc7
          1. Where to hang all this?
          2. How much will it all weigh?

          I will continue:
          3. Can it hit an anti-aircraft missile? (Do you know her speed?)
          4. Why such a plane, if it can only defend itself? (that if it can)
          5. Why are all around such fools, and only one is smart?
          Maybe before you write idiotic comments, you should at least study the topic a little so as not to look so stupid ...


          Thank you, but I'm not interested in how I look in your eyes. I'm interested in getting to the bottom of it.
          But in fact, both yours and the answer from above are reduced to one “hemorrhoids”. This answer may suit you, but it may not suit the pilots and the MO. Let's point by point:
          1. Where to hang - why is there not enough space? Though in the fuselage, even under the wings. The bottom line is that these missiles should not be large and too expensive. Well, or at least big at the first stage.
          2. Based on point 1, why does such a rocket need a lot of weight? She can fly 5-10 km maximum to an anti-aircraft missile, so she does not need a lot of fuel and, accordingly, she can be small and light.
          3. I know that an anti-aircraft missile flies fast, but I don’t think that it’s directly interceptable, especially if the course is moving towards rapprochement. Therefore, yes, it’s probably not easy, of course, but if we made the Sarmat fly, then why can’t we be able to do this small potential rocket?
          4. Why is he suddenly only able to defend himself? For example, it can defend itself and launch an anti-aircraft missile at anti-aircraft guns, such a benefit is no longer frail.
          5. So I'm asking, because this is not even discussed. But we can’t be that this idea didn’t come to anyone’s mind and that to whom it came immediately you scattered “well, no, it won’t work out like that.” There should have been at least some plans / projects / design work, etc.

          Man, do you really think that a person should study something before writing a comment on the Internet? laughing
          Yes, this poc just does not know how everything works crying
          1. 0
            3 September 2022 23: 51
            Aircraft do not have a circular view to ensure missile guidance! To provide all-round visibility, this is again volumes and weight + perhaps some kind of airframe configuration is needed so that the vision systems work effectively for defense! It is also possible to shoot down missiles with short-range explosive missiles, if the control center is issued in a timely manner, but this is a problem No.
            The people are wondering that in the future lasers will blind the seeker or even shoot down missiles, but for now, electronic warfare and maneuverability are more effective protection, and stealth is where without it, they should not fly into missiles at all with it laughing
            1. 0
              11 September 2022 00: 19
              So the SU-57 boasts of the same that it has a circular view! 6 afar radars all things. And I think this is very true, only in addition to reb and maneuvers, it is necessary to add anti-missiles there. In what configuration is the question, but it's worth it.
              Well, for example, it’s not easy to put on a fighter from a fighter, and there really will be problems with weight and dimensions. BUT why not stick it on the White Swan?
              By the way, about the pack-yes, or whatever the future super bomber was, they said that they planned to install melee missiles that would have to shoot down everything that flies into it.
          2. +1
            6 September 2022 00: 25
            newtc7
            I think that the idea with airborne anti-missiles did not only occur to you)) But no one has ever implemented something, even in the form of a project. You've already been answered, but I'll add:
            1. Not in every sortie, the plane is attacked with missiles. Therefore, you will have to carry ballast instead of a combat load and burn fuel in vain.
            2. Any guided missile costs money. Considerable. And its development too
            3. Missiles from airplanes fly forward very well along the course and somehow they really don’t like it in other directions. But anti-aircraft missiles often attack from behind
            4. Hitting a rocket with a rocket is still a very difficult task. Therefore, in order to fight off incoming missiles, you will have to spend a much larger amount of anti-missiles
            5. Air-to-air missiles are aimed either at the heat of the target, or at the radar reflection from it. In 50% of cases, the incoming rocket has already burned the fuel, and does not radiate heat. Due to its small size, the reflection from it is also small and a large radar is needed to detect it. And such a radar will not fit into a small rocket.
            6. But if planes fly nearby, their engines radiate intense heat and the planes themselves reflect radio waves well. Therefore, your anti-missiles will be aimed at their own aircraft instead of enemy missiles.
            7. The control of anti-missiles from the aircraft is problematic - it is subject to interference, the anti-missile is difficult to track (explained above), and the on-board computer of the aircraft has to be loaded with another very difficult task (or even more than one, when pointing several anti-missiles). If the aircraft is attacking several enemy missiles, the task of controlling anti-missiles becomes very difficult.
            In short, the idea is meaningless and unrealizable
            1. 0
              11 September 2022 00: 21
              Thank you, at least you answered normally!
              Yes, I think it's all there. And yet the future lies in shooting down incoming missiles and not trying to dodge them. Not rockets so laser.
              Thanks again for your reply
              1. +1
                12 September 2022 12: 44
                I already wrote everything. I repeat. First, interference (including lasers). Secondly, fired ammunition (not missiles! Rather, something similar to the KAZ Arena on tanks) in the path of guided missiles. Thirdly, the use of long-range weapons, which make it possible to hit targets without approaching fighters and entering the air defense zone (including various kinds of drones). Fourth, the adaptive trajectory of the aircraft, taking into account threats. There will be no anti-missiles and anti-missile lasers on board. I have already spoken about anti-missiles. Airborne lasers are not and will not be able to shoot down anything, only blind optical homing heads and nothing more. Study the materiel and see for yourself
    2. +2
      29 August 2022 12: 19
      Trim the sturgeon, it won't take off. The smallest UR explosive is the Israeli Python and our R-60, but in order to take 30 of them on board, and even another load too ??? There are no such fighters, this is a machine in the dimensions of the Tu-160. The fight against missiles is carried out by means of electronic warfare and LTC using anti-missile maneuvers.
      1. -2
        29 August 2022 16: 54
        this is a car in the dimensions of the Tu-160
        That's right! That's why the kartege of Drones is being tested. 5-6 Drones with purely defensive weapons, there will be a completely different conversation for each striker. There will be the same situation as a pair of MLRS-SAMs. The anti-aircraft guns will stupidly not have enough missiles. hi
        1. 0
          31 August 2022 14: 01
          I can hardly imagine how a pilot, even a 5th generation fighter with automation at the level of a neural network (an inferior AI, alas), will cope with such a load. The pilot does not have his own tasks, how to steer drones, or what ???
    3. 0
      31 August 2022 16: 39
      Yeah, 20-30 missiles. And do not take anything else (because it will not work). And half of these "20-30" of yours will miss. And the carrier of these 20-30 will turn out to be the size of a Tu-16. Not to mention the cost of "20-30 missiles". In fact, there have been drugs against missiles for a long time:
      1. Suppression of air defense and enemy fighters by cover groups
      2. Interference, both to the radar and to the flying missiles themselves
      3. Anti-missile maneuvers (together with interference)
      In the future, small-sized ammunition may appear, fired in the direction of an incoming missile and creating a cloud of fragments that hit the missile. There may even be a drop-down net in which the rocket will get tangled.
  9. +1
    29 August 2022 06: 46
    based on the article that modern Air defense will still see the plane earlier .. it’s not at all clear why 5,6 generations are needed with the main feature "stealth" because. the rest of the chips are clearly not the main ones .. maneuverability from an anti-aircraft missile can be avoided in theory - if you're lucky or you are "Pokryshkin" - which was the only one, and not a mass pilot, and they can be launched in pairs .. the speed is much higher than the rocket .. also debatable and it depends on many factors (and there are no such aircraft in the 5th generation yet, and I don’t think there will be, the speed will not pull out the coverage) .. we get that 5,6 generations will be useful in a small amount for a war with already non-barmaley, but not modern air defense either - for its destruction .. and so it’s wonderful further and the 4th generation will work out .. I emphasize - these are the conclusions that are from the content of the article .. in my opinion - unconvincing and why we don’t understand then 5,6 generations - if they are so "about nothing" then it’s possible not to name a generation, but to name a special aircraft for the destruction of air defense ..
    1. +3
      29 August 2022 07: 23
      Quote: Level 2 Advisor
      we get that 5,6 generations will be useful in a small amount for a war with already non-barmaley, but not modern air defense either ...

      Do so many countries have modern air defense capable of withstanding a massive 5-ok .. raid?
      1. +3
        29 August 2022 07: 38
        Well, I’m talking about this too .. according to this logic, for this a whole “generation” is not needed, like a mass aircraft - a regiment or two is enough to take apart all the enemy’s air defenses in a maximum of a week .. it feels like initially this is marketing from striped gun manufacturers with unlimited finances..
        1. +1
          29 August 2022 10: 00
          Quote: Level 2 Advisor
          I’m talking about this too .. according to this logic, for this, a whole “generation” is directly, like a mass aircraft, and you don’t need

          For the level of 97% of countries, it is not necessary.
          But there is another 3% who have strong air defense, but a conflict with which is not at all excluded. And all the same, the number, the number of aircraft of the latest generation, the number of experienced flight personnel and the production capabilities of the aircraft industry will rule the ball ...
      2. +2
        29 August 2022 08: 49
        Do so many countries have modern air defense capable of withstanding a massive 5-ok .. raid?

        It turned out that even Ukrainian air defense can resist. Azerbaijan coped with the Armenian air defense with the help of decoys, unmanned corn crops, forcing the Armenians to use up all the ammunition of anti-aircraft missiles. Why don't we use target aircraft to open Ukrainian air defense and further destroy the radar and air defense systems of the Armed Forces of Ukraine? Or is it better not to shoot at clouds from a "cabrate"?
        1. +3
          29 August 2022 10: 08
          Quote: Konnick
          It turned out that even the Ukrainian air defense ...

          There is no Ukrainian air defense, there is a former Soviet air defense, with Soviet air defense systems, trained personnel ...
          Quote: Konnick
          Ukrainian air defense can resist.

          But did Russia massively use 5th generation aviation to suppress the air defense of the adversary ..?
          Quote: Konnick
          Azerbaijan coped with the Armenian air defense with the help of decoys, unmanned corn, forcing the Armenians

          Azerbaijan fought not with Armenia, but with Nagorno-Karabakh ... The Armenian Su-30s were never used.
          Quote: Konnick
          Why don't we use target aircraft to open Ukrainian air defense and further destroy the radar and air defense systems of the Armed Forces of Ukraine?

          I can't really say.
        2. -2
          29 August 2022 11: 11
          Yes, just an expert.

          Area of ​​NKR, 11000 sq km.
          The area of ​​Donetsk region only, 24000
          The area of ​​Ukraine is 603000 sq km.
          Compare for you the composition of the air defense of Ukraine and the NKR or yourself?
          1. 0
            29 August 2022 12: 48
            Well, that is, the issue of scaling, Azerbaijan needed a few dozen "corners", we would need a few hundred.

            Compare for you the composition of the air defense of Ukraine and the NKR or yourself?


            According to data from open sources, at the time of the start of hostilities, the air defense system in Nagorno-Karabakh included 24 Osa-AK (M) air defense systems, 6 Tor-M2KM air defense systems, one S-300PS division, 2 Krug air defense battalions, 3 divisions of the "Kub" air defense missile system and one division of the C-125 air defense missile system.


            https://topwar.ru/188727-karabahskaja-shkatulka-v-azerbajdzhane-raskryli-podrobnosti-operacii-po-unichtozheniju-pvo-armenii-v-nagornom-karabahe.html
        3. -4
          29 August 2022 14: 46
          It turned out that even Ukrainian air defense can resist. Azerbaijan coped with the Armenian air defense with the help of decoys, unmanned corn crops, forcing the Armenians to use up all the ammunition of anti-aircraft missiles. Why don't we use target aircraft to open Ukrainian air defense and further destroy the radar and air defense systems of the Armed Forces of Ukraine? Or is it better not to shoot into the clouds from a "cabriar"

          Don't smoke THIS anymore. Where did you read this nonsense?
      3. -2
        29 August 2022 14: 41
        do so many countries have modern air defense capable of withstanding a massive 5-ok raid

        Exactly the same as it is able to withstand a massive raid of 3s
      4. 0
        31 August 2022 14: 10
        And how many countries have a massive fleet of 5-k?
        1. 0
          31 August 2022 15: 45
          Still alone. Two on the way...
    2. 0
      29 August 2022 12: 21
      The author of the article is apparently from the air defense himself, or an amateur of this type of troops. But in reality, everything is not so simple, air defense does not provide 100% destruction of aircraft (none, even S-300-400-500-stop-hundred), just as there are anti-radar missiles on board the aircraft, there are electronic warfare aircraft that, in this very, so that her mother gave birth back, network-centricity and enter.
      1. -1
        29 August 2022 14: 51
        He started off so well ... But he slipped into network-centricity ... sad And so, yes. 30% destruction for ground air defense is a very remarkable result. The main task is to drive away and prevent the task from being completed. This is how Russian air defense in Ukraine shows super-efficiency. The enemy, however, is not so hot ... but nevertheless
        1. rtv
          0
          29 August 2022 16: 53
          What's wrong with network centricity? Well, except for the fact that they dragged this term, using both appropriately and out of place. Naturally, more often than not.
          1. 0
            30 August 2022 02: 51
            Nothing bad. If that's what they write about. In fact, as you rightly put it, so far only a term. What will come of this in practice is still unknown. There is a very high chance that things will go wrong.
        2. -1
          30 August 2022 15: 36
          That's right - the enemy is not so hot. The United States, at the last time, also chooses opponents so that they are not so hot. And network-centricity is the essence of the integration of all complexes into a single data exchange system, what's wrong with it? In the US, the 6th generation aircraft is not really an aircraft, it is a program of air dominance and integration, including around the new aircraft.
    3. 0
      31 August 2022 16: 42
      Any air defense is suppressed by competent aviation actions. And air defense responds to this with camouflage, false radars, command guidance, switching radars and their frequencies, and other measures. It's a constant confrontation
    4. 0
      4 September 2022 00: 06
      Quote: Level 2 Advisor
      call a special aircraft for the destruction of air defense ..

      In the United States, such aircraft back in Vietnam were F4 Wild Weasel, equipped with electronic warfare systems and PRR missiles (Shrike in those days). In aircraft of the 4th generation, the abilities of this special board were implemented using containers and Harm missiles, with the help of this kit you can turn any drummer into a Wild Weasel good
      Stealths turn the missile battle over, providing an advantage to its owner due to the expansion of the tactical capabilities of the unit, since the missile over-the-horizon battle is not conducted by the pilot (he is the performer) but by the headquarters, the battle takes place in the radar field provided by the ground-based radar or AWACS aircraft and this is a chess game, not the right strategy and defeat, stealth gives not a frail advantage in this game
  10. 0
    29 August 2022 06: 51
    Let's see. If, of course, we survive.
  11. -1
    29 August 2022 06: 52
    Interesting information.
    Who are you, sixth generation combat aircraft?

    It is not serious to ask such a question in the presence of three fifth-generation serial aircraft in the Aerospace Forces (as of May 2022), limited capabilities in the production of radars with AFAR and the unclear prospect of installing "product 30" on it.
    But the difference between production and concept development is that there is no need to demonstrate anything in real life. Made a model of foam and ...
    *****
    What is the difference between a 6th generation aircraft and a UAV? Who will fly the plane there - the robot Fedor? Some kind of vague development prospect. By the way, air defense already today has missiles capable of shooting down targets moving at speeds up to 7 km / s or more than 20 Machs.
  12. 0
    29 August 2022 07: 03
    It is quite possible to add to the characteristics of generation 6 such a parameter as an attack from space. That is, the device must be able to reach altitudes of up to 80-100 km (it is possible that 45-60 km is "enough"), continue flying there, maneuver and dive vertically at the target.
    Or is it already generation 7?
    1. +3
      29 August 2022 09: 07
      steep dive on the target.

      Why??? You would also write about sirens ...
      1. +1
        29 August 2022 09: 15
        Well then, fool around with a weapon that will hit the target from such a height.
        And the sirens... It's good that you mentioned them.
        Let them howl. Voice of the Apocalypse
    2. 0
      31 August 2022 16: 44
      U-58the possibility of reaching heights up to 80-100 km ... and a steep dive on the target.

      But what, ballistic and quasi-ballistic (Iskander, Dagger) missiles are not enough for this? And why sheer?

      Or is it already generation 7?

      This is V-2 laughing
  13. -3
    29 August 2022 07: 12
    The air defense system showed that the 4th generation aircraft were outdated in terms of the ability to overcome air defense, the 5th generation aircraft were not used on one side of the air defense system (well, not counting 1 serial one, which flies somewhere there). Moreover, as shown by the SVO UAVs, which, due to their size, have a smaller ERP for air defense, are already a headache (although, again, modern UAVs with stealth technology are not used in the SVO)
    1. rtv
      0
      29 August 2022 17: 02
      UAVs present a headache not only because of the lower RCS, but also because targets with the same characteristics were previously considered decoys - the same birds, for example. And the equipment of many radars, radars, air defense systems, air defense systems, etc. they just purposefully ignore them, because why does the air defense system need to see birds? At the same time, radars have been used for many years in the interests of ornithology, which are quite capable of detecting birds. There is more of a problem with overload, because the smaller the size of the targets, the more of these targets.
  14. +7
    29 August 2022 07: 35
    Aircraft created in the period 1938/1939 - 1947/1948, including the years of the Second World War. Straight wing...,
    And then the Me-262 is mentioned ... laughing With such a straight wing that there is nowhere further tongue

    Yes, and completely forgetting other German aircraft ...


    1. The comment was deleted.
  15. 0
    29 August 2022 08: 37
    For many years now I have been observing that aviation in its development is becoming more and more like the notorious "unidentified saucers and flying triangles."
  16. +2
    29 August 2022 09: 16
    The sixth generation aircraft is a drone.
  17. +2
    29 August 2022 09: 16
    Aviation to some extent follows the path of the fleet. Even the 4th generation aircraft are so expensive that they are afraid to use them if the enemy has more or less developed air defense. There is no need to even talk about 4++, 5 and 6. The price of the device is outrageous.
    As a result, it will be like with battleships. Wild cost, fear of losing such an expensive device. As a result, two or three military exits during the war, standing at the wall and in most cases an inglorious death in their own harbor. Whatever one may say, the future belongs to robots. Air defense will always outplay aircraft.
    1. -1
      29 August 2022 09: 25
      As a result, it will be like with battleships. Wild cost, fear of losing such an expensive device. As a result, two or three military exits during the war, standing at the wall and in most cases an inglorious death in their own harbor. Whatever one may say, the future belongs to robots. Air defense will always outplay aircraft.


      What a good example. I immediately remembered how Stalin sent the 42nd battleship "Paris Commune" to Poti until the end of the war.
      1. -1
        29 August 2022 12: 29
        There are a lot of such examples: Italians with LKs like Littorio (having 4 modern LKs they could control the Middle-earth, but the admirals were afraid), Germans rushing with their Tirpitz and Bismarck (as well as Scharnhorst and Gneisenau), Japanese with Yamato and Musashi (most of the hardships of the war on in their fleet they dragged battlecruisers of the Congo type and conventional TKR). The most actively used LK, oddly enough, the Americans, but more for the bombardment of the islands before the landing.
        1. +1
          29 August 2022 14: 07
          The British also drove their battleships across all the seas and oceans, despite the losses. But in general - yes, the aircraft becomes a piece product, the quick replenishment of which becomes difficult ... The next in line is a tank.
      2. 0
        29 August 2022 19: 53
        You can also recall the WWI when the battleships only once entered into battle with each other (the Battle of Jutland) and practically stood in ports throughout the war.
    2. rtv
      0
      29 August 2022 17: 06
      Quote: Konnick
      Air defense will always outplay aircraft

      As a puffman, I'll tell you it's the other way around. Aviation will always outplay air defense. Other things being equal, of course. Aviation has an undeniable trump card - maneuverability. Aviation can concentrate on a fairly narrow section of the front. And air defense, by definition, will be smeared along the entire front. Any air defense system can be overloaded for targets - both reconnaissance and fire weapons. So everything is not so clear. I read such a phrase that air defense is like pubic hair on a woman - they cover it, but they don’t protect it. There is a lot of cynical army humor and exaggeration, of course, but there is some truth in this.
      1. -2
        29 August 2022 20: 10
        Yes, I agree somewhere, but with reservations. Of course, having concentrated a lot of aircraft in a narrow area, it is not so difficult to break through air defense. But what kind of aviation losses will this breakthrough be paid for? Are there countries now that are ready for the loss of hundreds of aircraft in combat? Probably the last war with massive aviation losses was Vietnam. I don't remember anything else. And for a long time, unsuppressed air defense will still be an insurmountable factor for aviation. We are actually seeing this now in Ukraine. The Armed Forces of Ukraine have practically no aviation, but ours are also afraid to work to the full depth of the territory. Even one, albeit an old complex, is a risk and uncertainty. And they were definitely not alone. As a result, it seems like there is complete air supremacy, but in reality it is not.
  18. +2
    29 August 2022 09: 57
    And judging by the conflict in Ukraine ... we wrote off the Su25 early ...... to do the work in conditions of dense air defense .... no one.
    1. +1
      29 August 2022 10: 09
      The Su-25 is not used for its intended purpose. He does not pick his nose at enemy positions, throwing iron and firing from GSh-30-2.
      It simply works as a flying MLRS launcher, with a low cost per flight hour.
      1. +1
        29 August 2022 11: 08
        But no one can fly and do it anymore.
        1. +1
          29 August 2022 11: 17
          Maybe the same Su-34. Only this is nailing with a microscope. And very expensive.
          It is one thing to drive an aircraft weighing about twenty tons, with engines without afterburners, sharpened for subsonic flight. And a completely different aircraft weighing over thirty tons, for which flying near the ground is extreme.
          1. +2
            29 August 2022 11: 50
            Can't .... booking a cabin does not mean booking everything else. And, unlike the 25th and 24th, the wing is not adapted for comfortable flights near the ground
      2. -1
        29 August 2022 14: 57
        It just works as a flying MLRS launcher


        Well, that's what it was made for. NARs are the main armament. FABs according to the situation, and VPU, in general, an additional option (look at the ammunition)
  19. 0
    29 August 2022 10: 07
    I wonder how stealth and hypersound will save from a missile on a collision course with a thermal / laser / optical seeker?
    1. +2
      29 August 2022 11: 10
      He will save by the fact that the reaction time between - detection, issuance of the control center and the launch and approach of the ZR .... will be too long and the target will fly out of reach. Therefore, the United States is trying to involve satellites in the detection ....
      1. 0
        29 August 2022 11: 26
        And why must the launchers be located next to the detection tools?

        There are Ranzhiry, Barnaul and Polyany, when target designation is distributed centrally.
        If detection occurs by optical means (you don’t need much intelligence to detect heat from hypersound), then the detection station does not unmask itself.
        The same Pine, located 20-30 km from the front, can issue primary target designation for the S-400/500, and which, being deep in the rear, will shoot just on a collision course.
        1. 0
          29 August 2022 11: 49
          I mean the reaction time after the radar detects a target with a GP speed ..... the target needs to be detected, calculated to launch the rocket at some point in advance and corrected. With hypersound, there may not be enough time for all this. with BR, the issue is resolved by early detection ..... but you can’t solve it with a conditional aircraft or a cruise missile with a GP speed, only upon the fact of detection. If the radar is ground-based, then the radius is less, if AWACS, then more.
          1. rtv
            -1
            29 August 2022 17: 13
            Quote: Zaurbek
            with BR, the issue is resolved by early detection

            With a ballistic missile, the issue is resolved by the fact that it flies along a ballistic trajectory, which can be completely calculated from three serifs (I exaggerate a little, but still). In other words, the warhead simply falls to the Earth without maneuvering either in course or in speed, relying on its wild speed. And the aircraft is an aerodynamic target that can maneuver very actively, due to which the target tracking may be disrupted with the need to re-detect it and start the route (and this time), moreover, when firing at long ranges, the target can hide behind the horizon / terrain ( this is for fans of long-range missiles), as well as the need for a large maneuverability margin for missiles, which makes missiles expensive with all the consequences.
            1. -1
              29 August 2022 18: 19
              Just increase the speed of Br to GP ...... And the task will become much more difficult ...
              1. rtv
                -1
                29 August 2022 23: 51
                What does speed have to do with it if the trajectory remains ballistic? Moreover, the speed is already almost hypersonic.
                1. -1
                  30 August 2022 09: 40
                  Moreover, I wrote about the problems of hitting such targets with GP speed. for simple BRs ... the speed drops in the final section. But for the BR, the trajectory is known when the launch is detected ... but for the CR it is not known.
                  1. rtv
                    0
                    1 September 2022 18: 14
                    You have everything in a bunch. The speed of the ballistic missile increases significantly due to gravity and slows down slightly due to friction in the atmosphere, but the speed of the warheads does not decrease. The minimum speed of a ballistic missile at apogee. Because the warhead just falls to the Earth, then its trajectory is very easy to calculate, but not at launch, as you wrote, but after the apogee has passed. Until the apogee, the rocket has an engine running and it can change its trajectory, and therefore its calculation before the engine is turned off is impossible. In this case, the warhead falls to Earth just at hypersonic speeds, in this light your proposal to increase their speed looks strange. And the defeat of ballistic missiles occurs as early as possible, ideally before reaching apogee.
  20. -1
    29 August 2022 11: 04
    The confrontation between the Air Force and Air Defense is the confrontation between a projectile and armor. That is, eternal.
    The peculiarity of the NMD is that there is no complete destruction of the enemy's industrial potential - its energy, transport communications, mechanical engineering. As a result, he is able to partially restore the losses of his aircraft in technology. It is clear that NATO is helping them, but the scale of the industry of the Russian Federation and the UK is different, what would they fight now without NATO? In a normal war, they don’t behave like this, therefore it is not correct to draw conclusions on this issue based on an analysis of the NWO.
    There is a peculiarity in the confrontation between the Air Force and Air Defense. The Americans in Iraq, the Azerbaijanis in Karabakh pushed through the enemy's air defense, we in the NMD did not. That is, the result of the confrontation between aviation and air defense is decided at the beginning of the conflict, then either the air force almost does not fly, or there is practically no air defense. That is, the task of the 6th generation (as before 5, 4, 3) is to defeat air defense at the beginning of the war. And then you can drop bombs even from transporters - there is no one to shoot them down. Provided that you coped with the air defense and the industrial potential of the enemy, otherwise it will be like in the NWO.
    1. -1
      29 August 2022 19: 34
      Sorry, but there was no full-fledged air defense either in Iraq or in Karabakh ... in Ukraine, stationary mobile air defense systems were suppressed, but they are mobile ... today in one region, not tomorrow in another.
  21. +1
    29 August 2022 12: 02
    Now several pieces have entered the board, which can fundamentally change the rules of the game.
    This is LO, this is a network centric, and finally this is a UAV. Yes, these are not the most "new" things, but over the past decades they have made unprecedented progress.

    LO is already capable of performing some kind of protective functions, in the foreseeable future it can become a means of leveling both the speed and maneuverability characteristics of the "golden birds", especially when combined with a network centric.

    Network-centric - allows you to link together several radars and "smart weapons", all this is capable of both significantly reducing the effectiveness of stealth, and maneuvering or using anti-missile weapons. In the foreseeable future, interceptor UAVs may also appear inside the network centric, with much more impressive characteristics than any manned aircraft.

    UAVs - the development of AI and drone design technologies, the reduction of "stones" and the improvement of engines - can lead UAVs into an era when, at least in defense, they can confidently occupy their niche as the same interceptors that combine stealth (size, EPR), super-maneuverability ( greater uniformity of design, lack of a pilot), speed (possibility of external accelerators for launch, smaller size compared to traditional aircraft while maintaining the power of the remote control). UAVs can also be slaves and, under certain conditions, an ultra-efficient means of covert penetration deep into enemy defenses (it should be understood that the quality of satellite maps is growing, satellite Internet coverage is also increasing - the day is not far off when UAVs with AI can be sent to a complex autonomous flight with combat task much more confidently than now).

    All these technologies can have a great impact on what the 6th generation aircraft will be like - a passerby up to the 7th generation or a really combat-ready machine. Now a picture is emerging that modern air defense in the complex severely limits the work of aviation (and in my opinion the capabilities of integrated air defense will only increase in the foreseeable future), forcing it to push through air defense before performing its combat mission (that is, in fact, air defense in any case copes - at least delaying aviation and reducing its effectiveness over time). Aviation itself, in order to overcome this problem, is following the path of increasing stealth, situational awareness and equipment with more long-range weapons. That is, in fact, the aircraft turns into a "bomber carrier" or "rocket carrier", and the main evolution takes place along the line of development of these means, but not the aircraft itself. If I am right and the effectiveness of air defense will only increase in the future, the evolution of the 6th generation aircraft will, by and large, only supplement the 5th generation in the direction of improving the capabilities of the "bomber carrier". Birds and pilots are too expensive, it turns out the situation is akin to "saving title ships" in World War II. A number of tasks to defeat aircraft will remove missiles, a number of tasks will remove the use of UAVs. What remains is unlikely to wait for some kind of qualitative breakthrough in the 6th generation.
  22. -3
    29 August 2022 13: 05
    Does the pilot agree to sit on the plane and engage in maneuvers, knowing that missiles are already flying at him? And that the chance to dodge 50 to 50, and if there are several missiles, are they close to zero?
    IMHO, an unmanned vehicle should deal with such somersaults in order to save expensive equipment. And the pilot will sit at the control panel with a cup of coffee ..
    This is the 6th generation.
    1. -1
      29 August 2022 19: 29
      Do you know that any sortie and in general a battle, whether on land, on water or in the air, is 50/50? Nevertheless, people all over the earth do not stop fighting.
  23. +1
    29 August 2022 14: 37
    The problem with the 6th generation is that the pursuit of outstanding technological breakthroughs - we have approached the physiological limitations of the pilot.

    If we continue to evolve in super-maneuverability, we will face the fact that, technically, aircraft will be able to perform insane evasive maneuvers, but will not be able to implement them due to strong overloads on pilots, who may begin to lose consciousness when trying to perform a maneuver. Or the maneuvers themselves will be so complicated that without help from the aircraft itself, the pilot will not be able to perform the maneuvers.

    If we develop speed, we will encounter a problem that we encountered in the past. Namely, complex, heavy and overall life support systems for pilots of such aircraft. At hypersound, the temperature rises. this requires a more complex cooling system than on subsonic and supersonic aircraft. At this speed, overloads with simple maneuvers will also increase. It is also much more difficult to carry out a safe ejection of pilots in hypersound.

    So it turns out that something completely crazy cannot be achieved on airplanes, only on UAVs. But they, in turn, have their own CONCEPTUAL problems that cannot be fixed. Therefore, aircraft and UAVs will exist together.

    That's what I would think about - the idea of ​​changing the shape and geometry of the body of the aircraft. Not through moving mechanisms, as it is now. And through the very change in the shape of the fuselage. Try using shape memory materials. This will be the real 6th generation. And what is voiced now is only generations 5+ and 5++.
  24. +1
    29 August 2022 14: 44
    "The variant that they are working on today in the United States, a fighter-drone capable of flying at speeds up to Mach 10, is a very serious project" ... they don't have missiles that fly ...
  25. 0
    29 August 2022 14: 47
    The economic meaning of aviation is the use of cheap ammunition from an expensive and reusable carrier. If there is air defense, then the inevitable losses lead to the fact that it becomes economically profitable to use expensive and smart missiles. Considering that aviation also works on the ground, mostly not with blunt and cheap cast iron, but with quite expensive and smart missiles, a natural question arises. What for? There is no gain. In addition to the exorbitant price of modern aircraft, the cost of infrastructure and their maintenance tends to go something like this into space. Although the same tasks can be successfully performed by OTRK or MLRS with smart missiles. And much cheaper.
  26. -3
    29 August 2022 15: 18
    I think that the ability of vertical takeoff and landing should be a sign of the 6th generation.
    Only on the ground can an aircraft be hidden (including moving away from a distant missile), it can be refueled and repaired without vulnerable and expensive airfields, it is possible to secretly concentrate forces for a surprise attack.
    But the passion for hypersound may not be so necessary. So our high-speed bt7 could not do anything with the t3 t4 of the Germans.
  27. +2
    29 August 2022 16: 37
    1) Mig-19 - 1st generation, Mig-21 - second.
    2) According to some signs (without clarification), the Stealth era is ending, stealth will again be achieved by a low-altitude breakthrough. It’s not that stealths will cease to be made (there remains a lot of equipment against which they are effective), it’s just that funds for low-altitude flights will return en masse.
    All IMHO, of course.
  28. 0
    29 August 2022 16: 47
    It is easier to describe "flying saucers" and other UFOs: visible - invisible, change flight paths, instantly fly over the horizon, affect people and electronics, and so on.
  29. rtv
    +1
    29 August 2022 16: 50
    You start reading and it seems like nothing, but then pearls like
    stealth is replaced by stealth, based on the use of new radar-absorbing coatings and aircraft shapes;

    As if stealth technology just implies a decrease in the RCS of the target (effective dispersion area) through the use of:
    a) new forms of the fuselage, in which instead of reflecting the electromagnetic energy of the radar probe pulse towards the radar itself, it is scattered in other directions
    b) due to the use of materials that absorb the energy of an electromagnetic wave, there is just the problem that this approach only works in high ranges of radio waves, tk. the material is not capable of absorbing the energy of electromagnetic waves with a length greater than the thickness of this coating (plus or minus, I don’t know the exact numbers), i.e. in the range of meter waves, the coverage of the aircraft should be so thick that the aircraft will not simply take off, therefore radars of this range are not sensitive to such measures, but air defense systems and radars operate in higher ranges and this moment works there.
    As a result, it is absolutely incomprehensible what is the difference between stealth and stealth in the author's head.

    Well, what do we have next:
    find the plane by Doppler vortices

    This, of course, pearl. Does anyone know anything about Doppler [/b]vortices[/b]? I'm sure even Doppler himself didn't know about it. There is no such thing, there is a Doppler frequency shift, when you, by the noise of a train or car passing by, understand without looking that it is approaching or moving away from you. Because when approaching, the frequency increases, when moving away, it decreases.

    they will find it not at the main frequency of the radar, but at the overtones - the main thing they see

    Did the author go to vocal lessons a lot? The radar does not have the concept of overtones, unless harmonics were meant, but in any case, the radar does not have non-fundamental frequencies, all frequencies at which it operates are fundamental. If you mean wide-range radars, then there are practically none. Because physics. The antenna-feeder system of the meter range is fundamentally different from the same decimeter range, and that, in turn, from the centimeter AFS. There are radar complexes in which several radars of different ranges work in concert.

    At the same time, I would not argue that they will see in any case. Finding targets is not an easy task, which is greatly complicated by the curvature of the Earth. Unfortunately, many people ignore or don't know this fact. There is no point in increasing the range of a radar or air defense system beyond modern values. For a low-altitude field radar, a range of 75 km is enough, just the radar should be at the vertices of a triangle with a side of about 40 km (ideally) to create a continuous radar field at low altitudes. But this is very expensive, so they add a scale of 150 and 300 km, so that the generals rejoice, and the townsfolk admire. And the fact that not a single ground-based over-the-horizon radar with an antenna phase center height of ~ 10m will be able to detect a target at a height of ~ 50m at a distance of more than ~ 42 km - because the horizon, your mother.

    So there will be misses of goals, there is no getting around it. And taking into account the high speeds, the short time spent in the radar detection zone, when the count is literally in seconds, and the targets are hit almost above the covered object, the issues of anti-aircraft combat play with new colors. And here it is necessary not to thoughtlessly increase the figures in the performance characteristics to hundreds of kilometers, creating expensive radars and radars with a price of billions of rubles and which in themselves are a good target for the enemy. And, in my opinion, to switch to the use of inexpensive, highly mobile and robotic low-altitude field radars, which are capable of creating the necessary radar field at low altitudes at a reasonable cost and reduce the air defense reaction time. For example, in the group of Soviet troops in Germany, in order to stop the violation of the state border of the GDR by small aircraft, the FRG organized the duty of army aviation helicopters right at the radio positions. This is a good example of interspecific interaction (army aviation is the ground forces, one type of the USSR Armed Forces, and the radio engineering troops (RTV) belonged to the air defense forces, another type of the USSR Armed Forces). As a result, the border was locked up, although in the beginning the West Germans flew across the border without hindrance. In other words, it is necessary to establish interaction between the types and types of troops, since we are talking about network-centric military operations. But anyway, I digress. In general, the article sounds plausible in places, but in places it’s just quiet horror.
    1. -1
      29 August 2022 19: 22

      So the author wants to show himself as a generalist "both a Swiss and a reaper and a gambler on the pipe" it's all about him.
  30. -1
    29 August 2022 19: 09
    Firstly, the radar on airplanes appeared back in WWII (1939-1945) and the second, the author writes almost enthusiastically about the American aviation industry. Forgetting that they are still only dreaming of hypersound, and problems with combat aircraft are already over the roof ... they cannot even create a normal reliable engine for their modern combat aircraft.
  31. -1
    29 August 2022 19: 51
    One thing is clear, that the creation of new materials can improve the strength and reduce the visibility of the aircraft.
    And the creation of new engines and new fuel can speed up aircraft.
    Electronics and weapons can also be improved endlessly.

    So, materials brought from other planets can open up new abilities, for example, if they find a metal that has less attraction to the earth, this will increase the carrying capacity of aircraft, so they will either become even larger - to carry dozens of tanks. Or they will carry small planes inside themselves. Also, new materials can increase the strength of armor from bullets and missiles.

    Therefore, the study of other planets is critical to the discovery of new materials.
    1. -1
      29 August 2022 21: 48
      Well, it's all Wishlist, and that, and that, and "it is possible without bread." Aircraft that can at 3M are already mostly made of metal, for now. It may also be that "speed is the new stealth," as they say.
  32. 0
    29 August 2022 20: 52
    A hypersonic missile is difficult to shoot down, not only because of its speed, but because it can maneuver at high speeds, withstanding exorbitant overloads. The trajectory becomes unpredictable, and makes it difficult to intercept.
    And a hypersonic aircraft with a pilot will not be able to maneuver in the same way, since the pilot will not withstand such overloads.
    This means that the plane will fly at high speeds like a log, the trajectory of which can be calculated, and therefore shoot down. High-speed targets with a predictable trajectory have long been learned to shoot down.
  33. 0
    29 August 2022 21: 29
    Ah, it's all nonsense.
    If the beginning is good, reminded (annually they remind like 2-4 times) about generations, then 5-6 is already a gag.
    About 5-10 years ago it was written, 6e is flights into near space and hypersound, + partially stealth and a common command network
    But space, hyper and stealth are expensive and not particularly compatible, they couldn’t get anywhere, so now everyone comes up with their own “6th”.
    Because hyper and stealth are difficult to combine, super-maneuverability is for parades, and everyone is already boasting about it, and a swarm of UAVs is already applicable at 5m. It would be Roy himself, with what problems because of the cost ....
  34. -1
    29 August 2022 21: 54
    Quote: Konnick
    Judging by the air defense, aviation does not have much influence on the hostilities, the air defense has won. Maybe planes and helicopters worth billions can fight against the armed formations of third world countries, but the confrontation of modern armies does not allow you to use all the advantages of aviation. The sixth-generation aircraft is needed for the rapid delivery of the appropriate air-to-ground missiles to a range of action, and without unnecessary super-maneuverability, but with short takeoff and landing and at supersonic cruising speed. A sort of flying transport container for high-precision missiles to increase the range of these same missiles.

    seem at sea, the Americans developed the concept; an arsenal ship .. where, apart from ~ 200-300 anti-ship missiles, there was nothing .. well, as for the conveyor, something similar happened with the Amerovsky F-4 Phantom when the designers considered that it was enough to equip a carrier-based fighter (that is, operating over open water) (A-7, A-9) and that's it .. but the Phantom had to fight over the jungle where his radar did not cope well with low-flying targets and rezalt .. the heroes of US NAVY had a hard time .. so the concept 6-ke would have to (possibly) act not quite as planned by its designers and the result ... however, this is all fortune-telling on kava .. something like this
  35. 0
    29 August 2022 23: 19
    Super-maneuverability is, of course, wonderful, but today there are missiles with a gas-dynamic control belt that perform maneuvers with an overload of up to 60 g.
    That is, the plane will fall apart by a third of the overload that the rocket can carry without problems, and the pilot will lose consciousness already at 10 g, well, maybe 12-13, if the physical condition is above average.
  36. +9
    30 August 2022 00: 05
    Do I understand correctly that hypersound and a person in the cockpit are incompatible things?
    Since a person can fly in hypersound only directly and with a slight acceleration. RUS movement and you are smeared on the walls.
  37. 0
    30 August 2022 13: 42
    Everything mutually excludes each other. I'm talking about the article. The combination of military branches is a breakthrough at this junction! For example. Drones, an aircraft uterus with operators with support for control from a geostationary orbit! Something along those lines.
  38. 0
    30 August 2022 18: 37
    Once upon a time, the author began a series of truly interesting and sincere essays about the railway, but that’s not all ...
  39. 0
    30 August 2022 21: 34
    Exit to space...
  40. 0
    31 August 2022 08: 19
    Something sank... Someone once said that the most beautiful thing in the world is a galloping horse, a dancing woman and a tea clipper under full sail at sunset on the high seas... The tea clippers with their brave captains have gone into the sunset. and sailors. Now the time has come for planes and pilots, air battles of fighters, attacks of attack aircraft .... The time has come for flying platforms and machine guns ....
  41. 0
    31 August 2022 11: 57
    As always, with this author, the article is extremely superficial, and about nothing. Even in the article, the author confuses generations with each other, refers the aircraft of one generation to the aircraft of another, contradicts himself, etc. Big fat minus to the author!
  42. 0
    31 August 2022 12: 55
    There is no zero generation - it seems that the author invented it himself. There was only the first - from Me-262, Non-280, Gloucester Meteor to MiG-17 and extreme Sabers. In general, these generations are purely a marketing ploy. Once upon a time, cunning hucksters from the American military-industrial complex came up with them to justify the increase in the cost of new aircraft projects (compare the cost of the Me-262 and F-35 - it grew rapidly with each new "generation"). Well, and then the notorious "5th generation" is also an option to sell new super-expensive aircraft. By the way, for some reason the author forgot about aircraft of other classes, for example, bombers. They also developed. Rather, there are not generations, but the process of improving and developing combat aviation. By the way, planes of previous generations are still successfully flying, for example, Tu-95, B-52, Mirage-3 and even MiG-21. Moreover, they are also being improved, and the MiG-21-93 / 2000 / Lancer, for example, was approaching the 4th generation fighters in terms of its capabilities. If we talk about the 6th generation, then this is more talk. Judging by the conflicting requirements, new classes of aircraft will appear, for example, hypersonic weapon carriers. It is also impossible to say that air defense will "cancel" aviation. Aviation has always responded to any improvement in air defense, in the form of an increase in its characteristics (for example, speed and flight altitude, the same "invisibility"), the emergence of new weapons against air defense (for example, anti-radar missiles), and methods of countering air defense (air defense breakthrough at low altitude, maneuvers for ground strikes in conditions of strong air defense, special air defense suppression air groups, etc.). In the conditions of wars of the future, there will be a place for everyone - UAVs of various classes, advanced aircraft, advanced aircraft of obsolete types, and even obsolete aircraft, but with new weapons. And even such options as a hang glider and a gyroplane)) Moreover, as in the development of computers, when the growth of their characteristics practically stopped, a certain limit is also observed in the development of aviation. Perhaps an aircraft similar to the Su-57 / F-22 is the limit for a manned, maneuverable multi-role fighter, both in terms of performance and physiological limitations for the pilot. Obviously, all these hypersounds will definitely not be maneuverable, either in a manned or unmanned version. And "invisibles" will not be exactly
  43. 0
    31 August 2022 12: 57
    I do not rule out that in the wars of the future it is even possible to reincarnate aircraft similar to the IL-2 - an armored low-speed attack aircraft. How many abreks are now fighting in different jungles?
  44. +1
    31 August 2022 13: 03
    I will add about super-maneuverability. It is pointless to discuss it now, because it has become the norm for modern Russian fighter-bombers. And super-maneuverability is used not by itself, but together with certain tactics and interference. You can talk as much as you like about super-maneuverable missiles, "which you can't get away from," but somehow they forget that they also have limitations. For example, in terms of traction. The rocket engine does not work all the time of its flight. And on the way to the target, the rocket may just not have enough of this missing thrust. In addition, any targeting equipment has target tracking algorithms and targeting restrictions. So, an aircraft’s super-manoeuvre can lead to the disruption of its tracking by the enemy’s radar, or its loss of the missile’s seeker, especially if this maneuver is accompanied by distracting interference. This is already in use
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  46. 0
    31 August 2022 17: 09
    brief characteristics of the 16th generation aircraft (only from the experience of the SVO)
    1. Biplane fuselage of the "Ilya Muromets" or "IL 76" type 2. Complete! Stealth for radar 3. Complete noise reduction 4. Almost complete masking from visual detection 5. Systemic focus on using from the simplest bomb weapons to super duper KABs 6. Carrying capacity up to 40 tons 7 Range up to 3-4 km 000. Cruising speed from 7 to 700 1000. Ability to separate into separate objects with the task of hitting available targets in case of partial damage and the presence of a "rescue shuttle" for the crew with a range of at least 8 km Main, of course point 500-2-3
  47. 0
    31 August 2022 18: 48
    4+, 4++, 4+++++ are already notions. Nobody adds any pluses anywhere except Russia. There is, for example, the base model F / A18 Hornet, and there is its continuation F / A18 Super Hornet, which received a new antenna, new weapons, and even a new wing. At the same time, the manufacturer does not attribute it to any +++.
    This is from the same opera as it was customary in the USSR to give aircraft modifications a completely new brand (Su17 - Su20 / 22, Mig29 - Mig35, etc.).
  48. 0
    3 September 2022 20: 53
    razwedke RF nado ubiwat yankeskih konstruktorow tak kak Izrael Iranskih fizikow atomscikow ubiwaet iz za duraka cto etogo zapretil USA priobreli mnogo opasnoj tehniki i hiperzwuk sdelajut edinaja alternatiwa ne pozdneje cem w 2025 prewentijnyj jadernyj udar po USA wojennyje rozhody USA 12 raza bolse cem RF efekt ocewidnyj promedlenje death podobno, koncit z nelepym mirolubjem
  49. 0
    3 September 2022 21: 13
    Quote: Yakut
    rich much cheaper.

    wy prawy economicskoj podhod glawnyj neponjatno kakoj durak was minusujet ja plusowal w itoge 0
  50. 0
    3 September 2022 21: 27
    Quote: MauZerR
    and other "partners" would have been part of Russia already in 2014.

    pomesala neresitelnost wlastej RF zapad wtoroocerednyj w etom
  51. AML
    0
    4 September 2022 20: 25
    Quote: Vladimir_2U

    Super maneuverability and hypersound - that's what is incompatible.

    These two parameters are quite compatible, but they are incompatible with the 3rd parameter, a person. 20G is the physiological limit after which bones fold. It is clear that there are exceptions, but that’s why they are exceptions.
    1. 0
      4 September 2022 21: 33
      20G is the physiological limit after which bones fold.


      The limit for a pilot is 8-10G, because with such an overload a person simply stops seeing, but how can a blind man fight?

      But bones can withstand up to 40 G for a short time - John Paul Step proved this back in 1951.
      1. AML
        0
        5 September 2022 06: 45
        Quote from Mitia68
        20G is the physiological limit after which bones fold.


        The limit for a pilot is 8-10G, because with such an overload a person simply stops seeing, but how can a blind man fight?

        But bones can withstand up to 40 G for a short time - John Paul Step proved this back in 1951.


        This applies to exceptions.

        7-8g short-term loss of consciousness begins. Many pilots tolerate 10-12g quite well. Ejection at 20g. Selected by experience.

        And so, in auto racing there is a known accident in which the pilot went to 150g and remained alive.
    2. 0
      3 November 2022 12: 15
      8-9G is the biological limit for humans, even pilots can withstand them thanks to special suits. But you can, for example, place a person in something similar to a liquid bath and he will withstand at least 50G. By the way, hypersound does not mean huge overloads; it is not the horizontal speed that is important, but the acceleration, the time it takes to gain hypersound. But hypersound and super-maneuverability (in the modern sense) are incompatible, since in this case there will be overloads at which the aircraft will fall apart, although the question is, what is super-maneuverability for hypersonic aircraft?
  52. 0
    4 September 2022 21: 27
    A swarm of miniature AI-powered UAVs without direct operator control?
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  54. 0
    17 September 2022 10: 05
    The author refers to statements by UAC officials that “work is underway.” Believing the bureaucrats of this structure, who in 20 years have completely destroyed the civilian aviation industry and driven the military into coma by merging and closing design bureaus and factories, is not to respect yourself.
  55. 0
    17 September 2022 10: 30
    Those latest technologies and technical solutions that will provide a breakthrough and a qualitative leap in the capabilities and characteristics of UAVs and UAVs, compared to the current level, will determine the new generation. And it could be anything.
  56. 0
    2 October 2022 10: 14
    Wow, how hard it will be to rethink the author’s written opinion (already with his classification, the confusion of cause and effect began - which ultimately led to quite erroneous conclusions regarding 6th generation devices).

    Well, let's start with the classification, like the author (and, perhaps, we will limit ourselves to it). But we will try to avoid his mistakes (and therefore we will describe not only the signs, but, first of all, the reasons for their appearance).
    Generation 0. This is de facto a piston aircraft with a jet engine attached to it. That is why, in fact, the generation is considered zero (and not the first), because it is not yet quite a jet aircraft.
    Generation 1. These are already vehicles with “high-speed aerodynamics” (swept wings, etc.), but still under the same concept of use as piston engines - and therefore the main, if not the only, way to destroy the enemy is a visual search and shooting from cannons .
    Generation 2. Oops. The plane accelerated to supersonic speed and began to overtake shells, and even fly past the target in a matter of seconds. That's right, the second generation is supersonic, locators to detect a target (they can do this before a person can visually find a point in the sky) and guided missiles that can be aimed even at a fast-flying target.
    Generation 3. But in this generation, “quantitative” development was replaced by “qualitative” (and this principled the difference between the 3rd generation and the 2nd, which remained behind the scenes for the author - as, apparently, for those specialists he mentions). Air defense has developed to such a level that it has to be broken through - either at supersonic speed, or clinging to the ground, or... That’s not the point. The main thing is that the 3rd generation aircraft became multi-mode (which, given the level of aerodynamics development in the 60s, practically guaranteed the presence of a variable-sweep wing) and automated (because at high, and especially supersonic, speeds, the pilot simply would not have time to go around the terrain manually ).
    Generation 4. And now our beloved science of aerodynamics said its “meow” - fortunately, by the 70s it had already developed so much that it had learned to control an airplane in an unstable (and not just non-laminar, but rather even anti-laminar) flow. A complex and unreliable variable-sweep wing is no longer needed - an influx in front of the ogive (or close to it) wing contour is enough, etc. and so on. Yes, this madly consumes the aircraft’s energy, which means that powerful engines are very, very necessary.
    Moreover, electronics have reached a level at which missiles can guide themselves, without even requiring locator or laser illumination of the aircraft that launched them.
    In summary, the characteristics of the 4th generation are super-maneuverability (more precisely, the ability of the aircraft to be controlled in a disturbed flow), a thrust-to-weight ratio close to unity (how else can one compensate for the energy that is quickly lost during super-maneuverability?) and “fire-and-forget” weapons.
    Generation 5, or "Suck it, FAR." Yes exactly. The massive introduction (both in air defense and on aircraft) of locators capable of detecting a target, minimally revealing themselves by radiation (or at ranges exceeding the radius of destruction) required the appearance of aircraft that were barely noticeable to locators (the boundary between hot air from the engines and the cold atmosphere is also definable in radar- range, by the way). The increase in the range of air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles required a reduction in the time spent in the enemy's potential detection zone. Well, and the pilot’s maximum awareness of the surrounding situation, which can change very quickly when an aircraft is detected and begins to intercept it.
    In summary, the features of the fifth generation are stealth, supersonic cruising and network centricity.
    And finally -
    generation 6. It has only two fundamental differences from the fifth: save the pilot and save the plane. The best way to save the pilot is to remove him from the plane. But the tasks remain the same - that is, a radio-controlled (including via satellite) drone does not work here, the machine needs real autonomy (that is, the ability to strike and conduct an air battle without human participation).
    Well, at this stage of the development of air defense systems, there are only two ways to save an aircraft - make it inconspicuous on approach and teach it to fly faster than missiles after detection.
    All.
  57. 0
    14 October 2022 10: 21
    It's fun to read the author. Even an amateur like me has two things on which there are serious comments: 1) nods to the United States and 2) “combat readiness at all speeds.” The physics of aircraft behavior in supersonic modes is somewhat different from behavior in subsonic flight modes. For example, simply throwing a rocket “out of the belly” as modern “5th generation” (sic!) aircraft do in supersonic modes is an extremely unsafe task, therefore you need either a “torpedo tube” that would launch the rocket forward, but then its “barrel” should is in the aerodynamic shadow, or in pre-launch and launch modes, meet the oncoming flow at about a zero acute angle, or look back. However, when launching from the shadows, or backwards, another problem arises - the destruction of the rocket at an abnormal angle of attack when meeting an incoming air mass, as well as the destruction of the nose of the rocket during an air strike. When launching a rocket that is constantly in the flow, the rocket body will influence the aerodynamics of the aircraft, and the aerodynamics of the aircraft will influence the rocket body - when placed on a pylon or on the wingtips, the edge of the shock wave of air flowing around the nose of the rocket will fall on the aircraft body, the same is true for rocket body. In this case, the shape of the cone and disk of the shock wave will be different at different speed modes, different densities and air humidity.

    In short, the physics of this process is so crude that for now it’s easier to use wonderful daggers. Or use this “plane” in combat in hypersonic modes in low orbits (LEO “only” 150+ km), where air friction can be neglected.
  58. 0
    16 October 2022 23: 14
    Third: the same American “Whatever doesn’t catch up with us, won’t be able to destroy us.” Hypersound. If an air defense missile can reach a speed of 5M, and an aircraft flies at the same speed, then, alas, the missile will have no chance of catching up and destroying the aircraft. Yes, there will be chances on head-to-head courses, but unfortunately on all others. Even if the plane just goes at supersonic speed and then starts accelerating from 2M to 5M, it will still be able to get away from the rocket. And don’t forget about how long the rocket engine will operate.
    What? Is the author crazy? Or I forgot the incident with the supersonic spin of an American astronaut at a speed of 5,1M and the KKO X-15. Next: what kind of engine should there be for the pause and 5Mach trails? And at altitudes above 25 km. such an aircraft practically became useless in the 1970s, which is why the Boeing X-20Dinosoar striker died - the fact is that even that PKO could easily knock down such an inter-medium carrier, it had problems with visibility in all ranges including the IR range, in terms of defense, such a carrier only flew straight; otherwise, in a manned version, it could easily kill even a trained pilot!
    Work on hypersonic vehicles may also sooner or later end with the appearance of a combat vehicle capable of flying at speeds up to 10M.
    And then Ostap got carried away! I have already written more than once about the NGB & Louckheed GTD-21A & Louckheed SR-72 Aurora that although these strike carriers can provide real support, they can cause more problems for operators than the effect of putting them into service! One flight of this prodigy and then you’ll have to explain and apologize to the reconnaissance mission for about twenty years
  59. 0
    21 October 2022 09: 08
    I would like to add my 5 cents about what a 6th generation aircraft should be like.
    We have already seen that even with a mediocre and scattered air defense system, planes fly “under the trees,” i.e. their use is so difficult that their effectiveness is already at the minimum level. At the same time, we saw that air defense systems simply cannot effectively combat small UAVs, especially kamikazas. From this we can conclude that the main thing that an aircraft of any generation needs is the destruction of enemy air defense. Means of destruction - let's say there are, the same lancets or geraniums. However, in order to destroy them, they still need to be discovered. But we have huge problems with this. Therefore, the first thing that is necessary for our planes to fly is to detect enemy air defense systems, i.e. intelligence service. The second thing that is necessary is the suppression of enemy reconnaissance, since they know when, at what time, from where and where our planes and missiles are flying, but we know nothing. Therefore, it seems to me that the first and main problem in a war is the intelligence struggle. And first you need to win it, then your hands will be free for everything else. For now, we are losing it to smithereens.
    Well, let's say we can't do this. Then, as an option, the aircraft should be provided with high-quality cover, for example, by the same UAVs. So our planes flew to bomb targets, and UAVs of various types are flying below, covering the area from which missiles could potentially be launched at the planes. Some drones, for example, having noticed a missile launch, will be able to create false signals and take the blow, others - kamikazes - will be able to detect the launch and promptly destroy the installation. Those. The meaning is that the plane flies where it needs to and goes about its tasks, and the group of drones is engaged in the prompt detection and suppression of air defenses.
    Well, another option, I liked the North Korean drone aircraft, which, as stated, is capable of reaching speeds of up to Mach 7. Those. hyperspeed is also, of course, an option for 6th generation aircraft, and although there will also be problems there, at least MANPADS will no longer be able to reach it, probably even the most promising ones.
  60. 0
    3 November 2022 12: 10
    Incorrect division by generation. It’s easier to divide by price and uselessness in modern wars.
    Zero generation: piston aircraft were notable for their mass production and brought victory to the war, the first and second generations were still useful, the third and fourth, given their price, are almost meaningless, and the fifth is, in principle, afraid of war, so, a very expensive platform for very expensive missiles. The sixth generation will generally be a platform for stealing money.
  61. 0
    12 November 2022 15: 35
    IMHO, hypersound, super-maneuverability at high speeds already raise the question of piloting. In my opinion, a real sixth-generation combat aircraft is an unmanned vehicle with OPTIONAL piloting capabilities. Algorithms and AI must be created that would allow solving combat missions autonomously. And network-centricity, in a good way, should already be in 4++.
  62. 0
    21 November 2022 07: 50
    It remains to add that 7th generation aircraft will be equipped with anti-aircraft missile defense systems based on different physical principles.
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