On the protection of Russian dreadnoughts from the detonation of ammunition

156

It is well known that at the beginning of the First World War, both German and British battleships and cruisers were prone to tragic death when an enemy shell penetrated into the barbettes of the main caliber towers. The reason was that ammunition was supplied to the guns almost directly, which is why a strong explosion inside the turret or barbette led to the spread of fire along the entire supply chain of ammunition up to and including their cellars.

In the battle at Dogger Bank, Hochseeflotte learned an extremely painful, but also extremely useful lesson. A heavy British 343-mm projectile hit the barbette of the aft turret of the battlecruiser Seydlitz. There was an ignition of charges in the working compartment of the tower, and the fire passed into the turret compartments and reached the artillery cellars. As if that weren't enough, the door to the turret compartment of the adjacent turret was open, causing the fire to spread to it as well. The ship was on the verge of death, and only quick and clear actions to flood the cellars saved it from an explosion. But both aft towers still burned out, at least 153 people died in them.

On the protection of Russian dreadnoughts from the detonation of ammunition
That same hit

However, a detailed description of the damage to the Seidlitz at the Dogger Bank is beyond the scope of this article. The only important thing is that the Germans wisely used the experience bought at such a high price.

Before the battle at Dogger Bank, the German ships, as well as the British, had a similar scheme for supplying ammunition to the main caliber guns. Both shells and charges were stored in the respective cellars, from where they were fed into the reloading (working) compartment through special devices - elevators. In the reloading compartment, shells and charges were reloaded into other elevators, which delivered them directly to the guns in the tower.

This scheme had two fundamental drawbacks. Firstly, the charges to the elevators were supplied in ordinary caps, which made them extremely vulnerable to even short-term exposure to fire. Secondly, no one bothered with the shutters between the ammunition magazines and the reloading compartment. Thus, the fire that broke out at the guns could easily go to the reloading compartment and then directly to the cellars, thereby causing their detonation.

According to the experience of the Dogger Bank, the Germans carried out two innovations. They introduced special flaps that automatically closed after the shells and charges were delivered to the reloading compartment, and fire-resistant canisters for filing charges. This turned out to be necessary and sufficient so that, despite the many battle damage to the main battery towers in Jutland, not a single artillery cellar of a battleship or battlecruiser Fleet the high seas did not explode.

The British, alas, were lucky in the battle at Dogger Bank - despite the fact that their battlecruisers received almost four times more hits than the German ones (not taking into account the Blucher armored cruiser, of course), not a single British tower was hit just as it happened with Seidlitz. As a result, the British did not see any reason to introduce any improvements in the design of their turret squads, and it can be safely assumed that the death of three British battlecruisers in Jutland was somehow connected with this.

Of course, I will not undertake to assert that if the Queen Mary, Indefatigable and Invincible were modernized in the model and likeness of the linear forces of the Hochseeflotte, they would certainly have survived. For such a statement, one still needs to know exactly the places and trajectories of hits by German shells, but it is absolutely impossible to get all this. Of course, if some German projectile managed to “pass” directly into the powder magazine, then the design of the turret compartments would no longer solve anything. But such a scenario is extremely doubtful, at least for the Invincible and Queen Mary, which were destroyed from relatively short distances, at which the shells still maintain a flat trajectory, so such a “penetration” looks unlikely.

In general, the version that the tragedy of the British battlecruisers was dictated precisely by the explosive nature of the design of their turrets has long become canonical, and I have no reason to refute it.

But how were things in this matter with the Russian dreadnoughts?

Very interesting information about this is contained in the book of the respected S. E. Vinogradov "The battleship" Empress Maria ", which I strongly recommend to any reader interested in history Russian fleet.

I would like to note that in this work, S. E. Vinogradov, of course, gives a description of the Black Sea dreadnoughts. But he also notes that the design of their turrets and turret compartments was extremely close, and the main difference was only an increase in the thickness of the turret and barbette armor. There were some other differences that allowed the battleships of the "Empress Maria" type to develop a better rate of fire than their Baltic "colleagues", but otherwise the designs were, if not identical, then extremely close to this.

Cases for semi-charges


So, let's start from the stove, that is, from the cellars of charges to 305-mm guns. The charges were gunpowder packed in silk caps with straps, for which it was convenient to pull these caps. Taking into account the fact that the combat semi-charge weighed 65,52 kg, the reinforced practical one - 49,14 kg and the practical one - 36,24 kg, this measure looks quite reasonable.

Semi-charges on Russian dreadnought battleships were stored in racks, and each was provided with a separate case “model 1909/1912”. This case was a cylinder 1 mm high and 323 mm in diameter, made of 320 mm thick steel. The functions of the stiffening ribs were performed by six annular protrusions, and from the inside the case had a layer of asbestos 1,6-3 mm thick so that the semi-charge did not come into direct contact with the steel case of the case.

The case, of course, came with a lid. It closed like this - in the upper part of the case there was a brass ring that created a gap between brass and steel and had 6 grooves. A special mastic was poured into this gap, which had a melting point of at least +90 degrees. and not corroded by sea water. The cover had such a shape that during installation its edge went into the gap, and then you just had to turn it all the way so that the corresponding protrusions on it fit into the grooves on the brass ring. For "turning" a special key was used. And the same key was used to open the case, after which the half-charge was removed from it with the help of the straps mentioned above.

Special attention should be paid to the fact that the case for semi-charges, except for cases of loading ammunition into the cellar, did not move with it, but remained on the rack. Thus, in a combat situation, half-charges were taken out of their cases right in the cellar: but what would happen if such a half-charge ignited?

Accident at Sevastopol


On the morning of October 17, 1915, work was in full swing in the turret compartments of the bow turret of the newest dreadnought. Five sailors reloaded 42 semi-charges in cases from the upper charging cellar to the lower one. As usual, nothing foreshadowed the tragedy, but when only three cases remained to be unloaded, one of them caught on the coaming of the hatch, slipped out of the sling and fell to the floor of the lower cellar from a height of about 3,5 m.

Later, it turned out experimentally that smokeless powder charges are prone to ignite when dropped from a height, and that they are guaranteed to ignite if they are dropped from about 9 m. But in this particular case, 3,5 m was enough - the gunpowder in the half-charge caught fire.


"Sevastopol" goes to Kronstadt, 1914

The result most of all resembled the work of a rocket booster: the lid of the case, of course, was immediately knocked out along with a certain amount of gunpowder, both of which were thrown back into the upper charging cellar, and the two sailors who fed the cases from this cellar were badly burned.



At this time, the case itself was spinning like a top at the place of impact, spewing a powerful stream of fire: the nearest rack with semi-charges peacefully lying in it, packed in cases, fell under its blow. Of the three sailors who were at that moment in the cellar engulfed in fire, one died immediately, and the other two managed to escape to the adjacent spare cellar. Both of them were severely poisoned by gases, which is why the next morning one sailor died.

When smoke was found on the Sevastopol bridge, the order to flood the cellars and turn on the irrigation was given immediately. But he was late - later the commission found that water began to flow even when the gunpowder in the ignited semi-charge burned out completely.

Subsequently, the commission examined 40 cases with semi-charges: thawing of the sealing lubricant was observed in all of them. Traces of burning were observed in 11 cases, and the same number of caps in the cases had traces of singed fabric. But still, the complete burnout of the semi-charge in the powder magazine did not lead to the ignition of the ammunition stored there, or to detonation. It is also interesting that the respected S. E. Vinogradov points out that this accident was not the first on the battleship, and that an incident had previously taken place, in all respects similar to the incident described above. It obviously also did not lead to the detonation of other powder charges.

Thus, it should be assumed that even if one or two half-charges ignited in the powder magazine of the Sevastopol or Empress Maria type battleships in a combat situation, this would hardly have entailed a catastrophe. And more of them could hardly have flared up, due to the design of domestic turret compartments, which will be discussed below.

Turret squads


The cycle of supplying ammunition to the gun, of course, began in the artillery cellars. On domestic dreadnought battleships in the 2nd and 3rd towers, they occupied 2 floors: the shell and under it - the charger. This was a very reasonable layout, since the most detonating ammunition was stored at the very bottom and was maximally protected from the effects of enemy artillery.

By the way, it will be said that the battleships of the classical layout were usually deprived of the opportunity to equip the charging cellars under the shells. This was because the ends where the towers are located are relatively narrow, and the closer to the bottom, the less space. But the charges are less dense and require more storage than shells, so placing them "on the floor below" required excessive elongation of the cellars, which was considered even more evil. At the same time, when the design of the ship made it possible to do this, it was done. So, for example, the placement of charging cellars under the shells was considered an advantage of the battleships Nelson and Rodney, in which the main caliber turrets were concentrated closer to the center of the hull.

Unfortunately, for the same reasons, the charging cellar "did not fit" under the shell cellar under the bow and stern turrets of the main caliber of domestic dreadnoughts - both Baltic and Black Sea. Therefore, in the aft tower, the charging cellar was traditionally located above the shell cellar, and the cellars of the bow tower had a three-story structure at all - charging, shell and charging again.


Green arrows point to charging cellars, red arrows point to shell magazines.

Briefly, the supply of ammunition to the tower looked like this. Through the lower charger, the projectile and semi-charges fell into the reloading compartment, where they were unloaded and placed on the charging table. Then they were reloaded into the upper charger, which already delivered the shot to the gun. Accordingly, there were two chargers for each turret gun - upper and lower.

Supply of ammunition


So, as mentioned above, the semi-charge was removed from the case with the help of appropriate straps and fit into the feeder, called the feeder. The latter delivered the charge to a special charging table, where he laid out. For the lower cellar of the bow tower, the route was longer - it was transported on a special lift to the upper cellar, and from there to the feeder and to the charging table, which was the same for both "floors" of the cellars where the semi-charges were stored.

Above the cellars was the reloading compartment. The ammunition was transported there by the lower charger, which was a metal box with three compartments for a projectile and two semi-charges, respectively. At the same time, the lower charger was made “decoupling”: the projectile compartment could move separately. This was necessary, since the projectile and charges were fed into the loader on different "floors" of the turret compartments, and it did not make sense to do this sequentially to save time. Instead, the charger was uncoupled, loaded with ammunition, and then, again "hooked", was fed into the reloading compartment.

Judging by the descriptions given by S. E. Vinogradov, it was here that the “chain” of supplying ammunition from the cellars to the guns was interrupted. Unfortunately, the respected master, stating the fact of such an interruption, does not give technical details, mentioning only the presence of “flaps, shutters”. But it is easy to assume the presence of flaps or hatches that closed immediately after raising or lowering the lower charger.

After the charger moved to the reloading compartment, its explosive contents were removed from it and placed on the charging table. Unlike the tables located in the cellars, this one was the same for both shells and semi-shots. Having unloaded, the lower charger went back to the cellars.

This was followed by the procedure for loading ammunition into the upper charger. It, unlike the lower one, was made non-releasing. Its lower "floor" was intended for the projectile, the upper two - for semi-charges. Of course, the procedures for moving “lower charger - table - upper charger” were mechanized, here a special rammer helped the sailors: it is, in principle, possible to turn the semi-charges manually, but moving 470,9 kg shells was clearly beyond human strength.

The upper charger, having received its deadly load, delivered it to the gun and mated with its swinging part. Thus, not only was it possible to ensure loading at any elevation angle of the gun, but also to carry it out with continuous tracking of the gun behind the target. Simply put, the stabilization of artillery mounts had not yet been invented, as well as accurate inclinometers that ensured the firing of a shot at the time the ship was on an even keel. Accordingly, the gunner was forced to constantly "follow" the target, combining the angle of vertical aiming of the gun with what the officer in charge of artillery fire asked. Loading guns on domestic dreadnoughts did not interfere with this process.

And it was carried out quite simply and clearly - after the gun was mated with the charger, the projectile tray opened, it rolled out so that its axis was aligned with the axis of the barrel, after which the chain breaker sent it. Then the semi-charge tray was opened, and everything was repeated. After the second half-charge hit the gun, the charger disengaged and fell down into the reloading compartment for a new shot ...

Ready to march and fight


At sea, if there was a threat of meeting with the enemy, they prepared for battle like this. The guns were loaded, with one shot for each gun in the upper loader, one more on the table in the reloading compartment, one in the lower loader and one on the cellar tables: a total of five shots.

As a result, each tower of the dreadnought was capable of firing 15 shots, "having only orderlies on the marching schedule." Accordingly, the dreadnought was ready to open intense fire at any moment, even before the artillery cellar teams took their places on alert.

Conclusions


According to the description of the respected S. E. Vinogradov, the turret squads of domestic dreadnoughts were extremely well protected from fire. In fact, the lessons that the Germans had to "learn" during the battle at Dogger Bank, and the British - during the Jutland, were learned by us even before the start of the First World War.

The metal chargers in which the ammunition was transported protected the semi-charges well from the short-term exposure to hot gases generated during the explosion of an enemy projectile: unless the projectile exploded so close that the box was destroyed. This decision dramatically reduced the likelihood of fire in comparison with the transportation of semi-charges without any protection.

Caps with gunpowder were outside the charger only during the loading procedure, on the charging table of the reloading compartment, and also during the supply from the cellars to the lower chargers. But the ignition of the semi-charge at the moment of reloading the gun could hardly cause the spread of fire into the reloading compartment. Even if this happened, and the charges in it ignited, then, taking into account the dampers blocking access to the cellars, the fire could hardly have gone lower.

But let's say an enemy shell pierced the 125-mm Sevastopol upper belt and the 75-mm barbet behind it and exploded, igniting the half-charges ready for loading on the upper chargers in the reloading compartment at the moment when the corresponding "claps" are open (it just so happened, that just at that moment one of the lower chargers was lowered into the cellars, for example). Even in this case, the chances of fire penetrating into the cellar, located a few meters below, are not too great. Suppose, however, that the burst of an enemy projectile dropped one of the ignited half-charges directly into the open "slam", and it fell straight onto the table, where other half-charges were waiting for loading into the lower charger. What then?

Even in this case, the maximum possible is the ignition of several half-charges, and not in the cellar itself, but in the supply pipe of the tower. Even if, by some miracle, there are six semi-charges on the table, and they all light up, it is far from certain that the flame will be able to “reach out” to the ammunition storage racks.

Of course, the description of the Seidlitz fire comes to mind, in which a tongue of fire “as high as a house” rose above the towers. But you need to understand that as many as 6 tons of gunpowder ignited on the German battlecruiser, while even in six semi-charges for the 305-mm / 52 domestic gun it was slightly less than 400 kg. And even if the flame still reached the cellars, then, as we can see from the experience of Sevastopol, the cases in which the caps were packed confidently protected gunpowder from short-term exposure to even a very powerful fire jet. At the same time, the storage of semi-charges outside the cases was strictly prohibited and not practiced.

Thus, it can be assumed that the weak armor of the turrets and barbettes of the Sevastopol-class battleships was to a certain extent compensated for by the successful design of the turret compartments, which minimized the likelihood of disasters in the manner of those that befell the British battlecruisers in the battle of Jutland. It was to be expected, of course, that in the event of a hypothetical battle between the Sevastopols and German dreadnoughts, the latter hitting the towers and barbettes of Russian ships would lead to heavy damage and no less heavy losses, which could well have been avoided by strengthening their armor protection. But still, catastrophes caused by the detonation of powder magazines, perhaps, should not have been expected.

Here, of course, a respected reader may have a question: what about the “Empress Maria”, and why did she explode if everything was so great with the cellars? But let's not forget that the cause of the death of this ship was a fire that arose in the magazines of ammunition. The causes of this fire have not been established so far: sabotage is not excluded. In the case of the Empress Maria, we are talking about a long-term effect of fire on the charges stored there, and not a short-term one, which was to be expected when the ship received combat damage.
156 comments
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  1. +10
    20 August 2022 05: 18
    Unlike the Britons and Germans, the Russians had a recent and rather unfortunate experience of naval combat. It is possible that it was taken into account when designing battleships.
    1. +6
      20 August 2022 08: 59
      Quote: Nagan
      It is possible that it was taken into account when designing battleships.

      More than likely. hi
      1. +5
        20 August 2022 09: 50
        Dear Andrey, sincere thanks for the above work!
        Specially left to read for lunch and did not lose!!!
        1. +3
          20 August 2022 09: 52
          You are always welcome, dear Vladislav!
          1. +7
            20 August 2022 10: 01
            Do not stop, dear Andrey, otherwise the whole of July and August, Sergey Linnik saved us in the “Armament” section! The rest, with rare exceptions, was not interesting to me personally, since I have a penchant for the history of weapons and equipment.
            Ships are something special, something from a childhood dream. Perhaps people living on the coast do not understand this, when the nearest sea is half a thousand kilometers and this is the Gulf of Ob of the Arctic Ocean.
            However, what am I explaining to a guy from the neighboring Chelyabinsk mining plant.
            Thanks again!
      2. +4
        20 August 2022 13: 31
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Quote: Nagan
        It is possible that it was taken into account when designing battleships.

        More than likely.

        Good afternoon.
        Dear Andrey, thanks for your article, for a long time there was no interesting material on the Navy, I mean not a modern fleet.
        As for the improvement in the design of the supply of ammunition and the protection of the cellars, in principle, no major improvements were made. This applies to all fleets in the world. Although the question of creating a new ammunition supply system was voiced by the American, future Rear Admiral, William Sims in 1908, he wrote that due to the appearance of ships with an increased number of large-caliber guns, the applied projectile supply system would not be able to guarantee protection against the spread fire and detonation of ammunition, not only in cases where a shell penetrates the armor of a turret or barbette, but also in cases of an abnormal situation in a turret or cellar. But in this matter, the "cruel joke" was played by the authority of W. White, who, in response to criticism of the projectile feeding system, stated that he developed this system and it is sufficiently protected and reliable, while it is used on almost all large ships in the fleets of the world. But the battles at Dogger Bank and in the Battle of Jutland put everything in its place.
        1. +1
          21 August 2022 09: 41
          Good day, dear Igor! hi
          Quote: 27091965i
          But in this matter, the "cruel joke" was played by the authority of W. White

          Thank you, did not know
          1. +2
            21 August 2022 11: 36
            Good afternoon.
            The problem of protecting cellars has always been relevant. In 1907-1909, there was increased interest in this problem, since in England they began to solve the problem of increasing the number of explosives in armor-piercing shells. Many experiments were carried out with various armor-piercing shells and it was concluded that an increase in the amount of explosives in a shell, while maintaining its characteristics, is possible only by increasing the caliber of the gun. The first 343 mm guns were planned to be installed on the Colossus battleships, but they did not have time to develop 343 mm guns to the end. On the issue of armor protection of the cellars, W. White again played a role, he said that due to the increase in the distance of the battle, at that time it was assumed that the battle would be fought at a distance of up to 9000 meters, there was no point in strengthening the armor. A short excerpt from his speech at a meeting of the Royal Society of Naval Shipbuilders:
            " In the case of Russian ships in the war with Japan, there are many examples when the armor, according to all the formulas, should have been pierced, but this did not happen. And the Russians, who know about this, in their later projects significantly increased the area of ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXbthe armor and reduced its thickness.."
  2. +5
    20 August 2022 05: 23
    Dear Andrey, thank you for the interesting article and for finding time for it in the current difficult time!

    In fact, the lessons that the Germans had to "learn" during the battle at Dogger Bank, and the British - during the Jutland, were learned by us even before the start of the First World War.

    Obviously, the designers took into account the experience of the Russian-Japanese war.
    the version that the tragedy of the British battlecruisers was dictated precisely by the explosive nature of the design of their turrets has long become canonical

    There was information that the problem with the British was that their gunpowder, unlike the German gunpowder, exploded in the cellars and did not burn out.
    1. +2
      20 August 2022 05: 51
      There was information that the problem with the British was that their gunpowder, unlike the German gunpowder, exploded in the cellars and did not burn out.

      Paradoxically, the reality is quite the opposite. Of course, I read Krylov's fabrications that the Germans supposedly had better gunpowder and did not explode. but in fact the Russians and Germans had pyroxylin gunpowder, while the British had nitroglycerin. and the paradox is that in the open air, pyroxylin gunpowder burns more vigorously than nitroglycerin. but in a closed chamber of a gun barrel, pyroxylin gunpowder, on the contrary, burns out more slowly than nitroglycerin. so the bad English gunpowder version is wrong.
    2. +5
      20 August 2022 09: 04
      Good day, dear colleague!
      Quote: Comrade
      Dear Andrey, thank you for the interesting article and for finding time for it in the current difficult time!

      Always please, glad I liked it!
      Quote: Comrade
      Obviously, the designers took into account the experience of the Russian-Japanese war.

      This is the first thing that comes to mind.
      Quote: Comrade
      There was information that the problem with the British was that their gunpowder, unlike the German gunpowder, exploded in the cellars and did not burn out.

      Yes, there was such information. And it is extremely similar to the truth, especially in the light of tests of British gunpowder (roughly - they set fire to a bunch of gunpowder, it detonated). I wish I could remember where I read about it...
      1. +1
        21 August 2022 01: 15
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Yes, there was such information. And it is extremely similar to the truth, especially in the light of tests of British gunpowder (roughly - they set fire to a bunch of gunpowder, it detonated). I wish I could remember where I read about it...

        Cordite. Prone to instantaneous detonation instead of burnout. You wrote about this more than once in articles about battlecruisers or in the series of articles "Mistakes of British / German shipbuilding". For example, V. Kofman writes about this "The Death of the Lord of the Seas" (Battle cruiser "Hood"). Sincerely, hi
      2. +6
        21 August 2022 02: 40
        Hello, dear Andrey!
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Always please, glad I liked it!

        Eight or nine years have passed since you posted an article on AI in which you refuted the thesis stating that with a linearly elevated system of the main caliber artillery, more optimal armor is possible than with a linear one ("Viribus Unitis" against "Sevastopol ").
        The simplicity and obviousness of the arguments you cited then impressed me.
        Maybe it makes sense to post this work here as well, because here people who are familiar with your work outside the Military Review can be counted on the fingers?
        Perhaps this article can be edited for the better (text, graphics) - add something, remove something - here, of course, you decide. But the theme is great.
        1. +3
          21 August 2022 09: 44
          Quote: Comrade
          Maybe it makes sense to post this work here as well.

          It is quite possible, but it will have to be heavily reworked and the text completely rewritten in order for it to become acceptable for "VO" - the conclusions will remain the same, there are even more factors working in favor of linear than I thought. Thanks for the idea!
          1. +2
            22 August 2022 00: 40
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Thanks for the idea!

            Thank you in advance from grateful readers, including your obedient servant, for your hard work!
    3. +1
      20 August 2022 09: 36
      From the same series of unlearned lessons. Tsushima, Fuji Tower fire. The Japanese (read the British) were lucky that the second hit shell actually put out the fire, and he did not go into the cellar.
  3. +1
    20 August 2022 05: 23
    Informative. And how are things now?
    1. +2
      20 August 2022 05: 31
      And now there are no reloading compartments on the ships. on the other hand, there are many rockets that are equipped with powder engines that burn in exactly the same way as artillery gunpowder. moreover, no asbestos cases for missiles are provided.
      So in the Black Sea, the BOD Courageous caught fire and died - on which the drunk midshipman Shuportyak closed the terminals of the rocket engine with a screwdriver and its engine began to work right in the cellar. and midshipman Shuportyat immediately ran away and did not say anything to anyone.
    2. +4
      20 August 2022 09: 05
      Quote: Popenko
      Informative. And how are things now?

      Good question. Alas, I can't answer it right away.
      1. 0
        20 August 2022 19: 23
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Quote: Popenko
        Informative. And how are things now?

        Good question. Alas, I can't answer it right away.

        As for the "large" missiles (sea-to-sea or sea-to-surface), they are mainly located in individual cells, which in one have thermal protection at launch and the possibility of emergency firing. It is more difficult with anti-aircraft guns, but their power is not so great. Although dreadouts and modern ships with missile weapons are "two big differences" in themselves. Especially in booking.
        1. +1
          20 August 2022 21: 37
          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          Although dreadouts and modern ships with missile weapons are "two big differences" in themselves. Especially in booking.

          The essence of the "booking" of modern ships is to prevent as much as possible from hitting the ship! If you can’t shoot down a projectile flying into a battleship, then you need to protect yourself as much as possible against its kinetic energy and explosion energy with the thickness of the armor and the number of bulkheads, then the rocket can still be shot down. And the example of the sinking of the "Red Caucasus" is indicative, when a cruiser can be sent to the bottom with one missile. This means that it is necessary to create such a layered system for protecting the ship at different ranges of using various types of weapons so that the missile does not reach the ship. What to wear on this ship is 40% of the displacement of static iron, which is not a fact that can still protect against a single missile. What Kaptsov and I once argued well about smile For a rocket can be programmed to hit superstructures with control points, and you can’t place hundreds of tons of armor there - no one has yet canceled the stability of a ship with a metacentric height
    3. +2
      20 August 2022 14: 45
      Now unitaries, in extreme cases, separate sleeves. And there are no guns larger than 130 mm. Well, maybe on some ancient cruisers.
    4. +2
      21 August 2022 02: 27
      Quote: Popenko
      And how are things now?

      Domestic naval artillery installation AK-130.

      Ammunition, ready to fire, is placed in three drums. This allows you to have three different types of ammunition ready for firing, which are used depending on the tactical tasks being solved, and to recharge drums that are not involved in firing during firing. There is a device that reloads the cartridge from the rotating to the oscillating part, which turns the cartridge around its center of gravity from a vertical position to an angle corresponding to the pointing angle of the oscillating part.
      The cellar of 130 mm shots is shaded in red on the diagram.

      According to Ukraine, allegedly there is a "clear confirmation" that the 130 mm shells in the cellar detonated on the Moskva cruiser.
      Original language from Ukrainian source :(є a clear confirmation that the "Moskva" detonated the ammunition of the AK-630 gun mounts).
      laughing
      1. +1
        21 August 2022 03: 17
        Sorry, typo - not AK-630, but AK-130.
  4. -3
    20 August 2022 05: 28
    I have an assumption that it was not the cellar of the 305-mm tower that initially exploded on Empress Maria, but the cellar of 130-mm medium-caliber guns located nearby. this was due to the fact that the medium-sized cellars were not sufficiently thermally insulated from the neighboring boiler room, and in fact on the previous day, during the campaign, Empress Maria was chasing a German cruiser. at the same time, of course, developing full power, which means the maximum temperature in the boiler rooms. and during the night, powder charges of 130-mm caliber heated up and spontaneously ignited and then exploded ..
    and if this version is correct, then sabotage is completely excluded. after all, the cellars of 130-mm guns were located separately and locked with a key, while cellars 305- could be freely penetrated from above from the tower - that is, it was easy for an attacker to blow up a 305-mm cellar, and it was difficult to blow up a 130-mm one. and all the more erroneous is the version that Maria could have been blown up by workers - since she had just returned from a military campaign and no work was done on her that night.
    1. +3
      20 August 2022 09: 51
      Quote: geniy
      i have a guess

      As usual, utterly illiterate
      Quote: geniy
      this was due to the fact that the cellars of medium caliber were not sufficiently thermally insulated from the neighboring boiler room, and in fact on the previous day, during the campaign, Empress Maria was chasing a German cruiser.

      Taking into account the fact that the last campaign of "Maria" was to Varna, and was in no way connected with the pursuit of any cruiser, and taking into account the fact that "Empress Maria" returned to the Sevastopol harbor at 23.55 FOURTH October, and the explosion occurred SEVENTH October, the value of your "version" cannot be underestimated.
      Quote: geniy
      during the campaign, Empress Maria carried out the pursuit of the German cruiser. at the same time, of course, developing full power, which means the maximum temperature in the boiler rooms. and during the night, powder charges of 130-mm caliber heated up and spontaneously ignited and then exploded ..

      Physics, as I understand it, was skipped completely at school.
      1. -1
        20 August 2022 11: 02
        Well, the pursuit of the German cruiser was still, although much earlier: A.S. Voevodsky, who cut off at least 2 nodes of the course at their ship when drawing up the design assignment, which left no hope for the success of the chase.

        Information about the exit of the Breslau for a new sabotage near Novorossiysk was received on July 9, and the new commander of the Black Sea Fleet, Vice Admiral A.V. Kolchak immediately went to sea on the Empress Maria. ... The course and time of Breslau's exit were known, the interception point was calculated without error ... The destroyers that were ahead of the "Maria" intercepted the "Breslau" at the intended point and tied it up in battle. The hunt unfolded according to all the rules. The destroyers stubbornly pressed the German cruiser, which was trying to leave, to the shore, .... "Empress Maria", which had developed full speed, had only to choose the moment for the right volley. them at random into the smoke screen that the Breslau immediately enveloped in the dangerously close fall of shells, but that decisive salvo that could have covered the Breslau did not work. Forced to desperately maneuver (the machines, as the German historian wrote, were already at the limit of endurance), the Breslau, despite its 27-knot speed, steadily lost in the distance traveled in a straight line, which decreased from 136 to 95 cables. Saved by chance flown squall.
        -------------------------------------------------- ------
        23.55
        October 4 - it's 5 minutes before the start of October 5! and if we also take into account that the ship’s crew does not rush from their posts immediately after anchoring, but first put the ship in order, and by the way, the boilers also cool down for many hours, then in fact the whole day of October 5, Maria’s team either didn’t get enough sleep or was sleepy and no work modernization was not carried out
        . On one of them, the "Empress Maria", which had returned the day before after a many-day voyage, that morning the wake-up signals did not sound at the usual time. The commander of the battleship, Captain 1st Rank Kuznetsov, ordered that it be moved an hour later to give the crew a rest after intense emergency work that ended well after midnight: thousands of tons of coal were being loaded onto the ship from two barges at once.
        1. +3
          20 August 2022 16: 42
          Quote: geniy
          then, in fact, the whole day of October 5, Maria’s team either didn’t get enough sleep or was sleepy and no modernization work was carried out

          The explosion sounded not on the 5th or 6th, but on the 7th.
          1. -1
            20 August 2022 17: 41
            The explosion sounded not on the 5th or 6th, but on the 7th.

            not on the 4th, but in fact already at the beginning of the night of the 5th, the battleship Empress Maria just got into the parking lot and her whole team probably turned off the mechanisms for half the night - that is, her people did not sleep at all on the 5th and immediately in the morning the loading of coal began, which continued on the 6th. that is, no technical work on modernization and repairs was carried out during these two days and no workers from the shore during these 2 days on Maria DID NOT HAVE . and on the 7th there was only NIGHT AND MORNING in which the explosion thundered. which means that there are no THERE WAS NO WORKERS![/b] And the fact that [b]IN PREVIOUS MONTHS negligently checked the workers - that's not considered. Therefore, the meanness of Krylov in accusing the officers of the battleship that, due to their inattention, the workers could blow up the battleship.
            1. +1
              20 August 2022 18: 09
              Quote: geniy
              and her entire team must have spent half the night shutting down the mechanisms

              Go learn materiel already.
              1) Under no circumstances could any stokers heat the powder cellars to a state of detonation. This is a minimum of 85 degrees should be in the cellars.
              2) The temperature in the powder magazines was carefully monitored and constantly measured
              3) Purely theoretically, and if for several days the temperature in the cellars was maintained at 60-70 degrees, then the gunpowder could decompose in such a way that it would ignite, but the fact is that this is preceded by a number of visible changes. They were in control and no one would let that happen.
              3) Gunpowder from the Empress Maria was subsequently tested, and showed perfect quality
              4) The ignition of gunpowder from an increase in temperature was considered by the commission, as they say, "in all forms", including the possibility of heating the keel-beam, the conclusions are negative
              1. -5
                20 August 2022 18: 38
                .
                1) Under no circumstances could any stokers heat the powder cellars to a state of detonation. It should be at least 85 degrees in the cellars

                You don’t understand well - the permissible storage temperature limit for gunpowder is 25-30 degrees - when this is exceeded, gunpowder does not spontaneously ignite at all, but only begins to decompose rapidly - microdroplets of sulfuric acid begin to stand out from it, which begin to gradually increase the temperature of the charge and after a few days it will explode.
                2) The temperature in the powder magazines was carefully monitored and constantly measured

                This is true - but they followed the thermometers and apparently there was an excess of temperature, suppose up to 40-60 degrees, to which the sailors decided not to pay attention.
                3) Purely theoretically, and if for several days the temperature in the cellars was maintained at 60-70 degrees, then the gunpowder could decompose in such a way that it would ignite, but the fact is that this is preceded by a number of visible changes. They were in control and no one would let that happen.

                In order to control the state of gunpowder inside the sleeve - for this you need to open it and then spoil it, but apparently during the military campaign to Varna they simply did not open the sleeves
                3) Gunpowder from the Empress Maria was subsequently tested, and showed perfect quality

                Well, that's right - they later checked, but they only checked the charges of 2,3 and 4 towers, and apparently no one checked the gunpowder of the bow cellars, which was heated
                4) The ignition of gunpowder from an increase in temperature was considered by the commission, as they say, "in all forms", including the possibility of heating the keel-beam, the conclusions are negative

                I have considered a lot of different catastrophes and made sure that in many cases THESE INVESTIGATORS ARE NATURAL DOOBS and they do not notice the most important thing.
                1. +3
                  20 August 2022 19: 05
                  Quote: geniy
                  when this is exceeded, the gunpowder does not spontaneously ignite at all, but only begins to rapidly decompose - microdroplets of sulfuric acid begin to stand out from it, which begin to gradually increase the temperature of the charge and after a few days it will explode.

                  You are fantasizing again. Laboratory studies have shown that for the necessary decomposition of gunpowder, he needed to lie at a temperature of +65 for 500 (!) Days.
                  Yes, according to the rules, gunpowder should be stored at a temperature of no more than 30 degrees, but at this temperature it will decompose for a very, very long time. And yes - the decomposition of gunpowder is accompanied by a number of interesting features, including the release of gases, which cannot be overlooked.
                  Quote: geniy
                  This is true - but they followed the thermometers and apparently there was an excess of temperature, suppose up to 40-60 degrees, to which the sailors decided not to pay attention.

                  The temperature was monitored not by sailors, but by artillery officers. And the temperature exceeding 30 degrees was recorded exactly 1 (ONE) time six months before the explosion.
                  Quote: geniy
                  In order to control the state of gunpowder inside the sleeve - for this you need to open it and then spoil it, but apparently during the military campaign to Varna they simply did not open the sleeves

                  :))))) I'll tell you how gunpowder was controlled - for this, from each batch of gunpowder, a small part of the gunpowder was set aside in the same cellar - and then the state of the entire incoming batch of semi-charges was determined from it. There was not the slightest need to open caps for this.
                  Quote: geniy
                  Well, that's right - they later checked, but they only checked the charges of 2,3 and 4 towers, and apparently no one checked the gunpowder of the bow cellars, which was heated

                  Of course - the ammunition of the bow cellars, separated from the KO by the central post, overheated, but the ammunition from the second tower, squeezed on both sides of the KO, did not. wassat You at least a little think about what you write, my dear.
                  Quote: geniy
                  I have looked at a lot of different catastrophes and made sure that in many cases THESE INVESTIGATORS ARE NATURAL DOODS

                  I have read your comments a lot, and I am absolutely convinced that it is not the investigators who are the NATURAL STUPID here Yes
                  1. -1
                    21 August 2022 21: 05
                    Today I came up with two fundamentally new versions - the possibility of self-ignition of gunpowder. BUT YET THIS IS ONLY THE BEGINNING - according to the second version, the reason for the penetration of fire into the cellar has not been thoroughly thought out. Therefore, it is completely uninteresting for me to refute Andrei from Ch with his quasi-scientific arguments. BUT I will do this only in order to enlighten readers a little. After reading just one scientific book on the chemistry of explosives, I was amazed at how much confusion there is in this science. How unstable are the results? And in relation to the topic of self-ignition of gunpowder, I know that there are at least three factors that can easily mislead even scientists, not to mention amateurs, which is Andrey from h and all readers, and I too, but I have a critical way of thinking and ability look for the truth. These 3 factors, and there may be more: 1 change in the chemical composition of explosives, 2 weight, 3 exact match of the conditions for the experiment. So: I claim that Andrey from Ch did not even notice that all three conditions were violated in the counterarguments he cited.
                    "Laboratory studies have shown that for the necessary decomposition of gunpowder, he needed to lie at a temperature of +65 for 500 (!) Days." Andrey took this quote from the book "Dreadnoughts of the Black Sea" from page 54. It seems to naive readers that they wrote that even for a huge 500 days at a temperature of 65 they do not cause self-ignition of gunpowder. BUT no other conditions for this experiment are given. And the fact is that the details can be very important. Gunpowder, as you know, contains microdroplets of sulfuric acid - here they are, when the temperature rises, and can cause self-ignition. However, as everyone knows, as the temperature rises, any liquid begins to evaporate intensively. If in this experiment the sample of gunpowder was stored in an open SURFACE SULFURIC ACID FROM POWDER COULD EVAPORATION ITSELF and from this the gunpowder remained dry from sulfuric acid and did not wish to ignite spontaneously even in 500 days.
                    And here are two more erroneous delusions, not even of Andrey himself - but of those scientists of pyrotechnics who created this rule, and Andrey believed them. "I'll tell you how gunpowder was controlled - for this, from each batch of gunpowder, a small part of the gunpowder was set aside in the same cellar - and then the state of the entire incoming batch of semi-charges was determined from it. There was not the slightest need to open caps for this"
                    The fact is that, firstly, the explosiveness of all explosive substances - not only gunpowder, explosives, but even ordinary fertilizers, is highly dependent on the amount of explosive - the more it is, the greater the likelihood of self-explosion - thousands of tons of fertilizers can explode from the slightest blow, and a thousandth of a gram of mercury fulminate, for example, will not explode from falling to the floor. And Andrey gives an argument that a small part of an unknown weight was taken from a batch of gunpowder and checked - and this is already incorrect - there should be a full weight of the powder charge.
                    The next factor: in the sleeve of an artillery shot, the gunpowder is hermetically sealed, and no gases and microdroplets of sulfuric acid evaporate from it even when heated, and many substances evaporate from the test small batch of gunpowder - therefore, such a check is incorrect. And in addition, Andrey gives a counterargument that these checks were carried out by officers and not by sailors - let at least the admiral himself! If the pyrotechnics scientists have compiled the wrong test procedure, then no officer will be able to determine the dangers. So who are the boobies really is another question.

                    Well, that's right - they later checked, but they only checked the charges of 2,3 and 4 towers, and apparently no one checked the gunpowder of the bow cellars, which was heated
                    Note readers - Andrei did not object to me that no one allegedly checked the gunpowder of the bow turret after the rise of the battleship - that is, he agrees with me?
                    But if you ask Andrei and all of you a question: what - did all the gunpowder of the bow tower explode and burn out? Moreover, I personally assert that the cellar of 130-mm ammunition actually exploded. Do you all agree with this or not? And Andrey here agrees, though and implicitly. I did mention that two thermographs were taken out of the cellar of the bow tower - one from the upper cellar and the second from the lower cellar, and one of them showed the temperature in the cellar 61 and the second 91 and this was published in the collection Citadel 1996 No. 3.
                    So: if the thermographs with paper survived the explosion and fire, then it means that all the powder charges of the bow tower 305 mm should remain intact !! Did any of the false historians write about this?
              2. +4
                21 August 2022 10: 05
                Andrei, good afternoon!
                Pay no attention to this forum member...
                The cellars were then equipped with thermal insulation and a cooling system. And the temperature was regularly measured and logged.
                So your opponent's version is ruled out!
                1. +3
                  21 August 2022 12: 18
                  Quote: rytik32
                  Pay no attention to this forum member...

                  Alexey, good afternoon! I can’t - I know that the person is wrong, you know, but other readers may not know
    2. +8
      20 August 2022 11: 18
      Based on the testimonies of eyewitnesses of the catastrophe, it was established:
      On October 20, 1916, on a ship standing in the Sevastopol Bay (opposite the dry dock named after Nicholas II - Northern Dock), about a quarter of an hour after the morning wake-up, the sailors who were at the first (bow tower) heard a hiss and noticed emerging from the hatches , fans, as well as smoke and flames from the embrasures of the tower. One of them ran to report on the fire that had begun, and the rest, by order of the sergeant major, rolled out fire hoses and, opening the fire cocks, began to extinguish the fire, pouring water into the tower itself and the turret compartment. The fire alarm sounded on the ship.
      But one and a half or two minutes after the start of the fire, a strong explosion suddenly occurred in the area of ​​\u12b\u300bthe forward hook chambers, where semi-charges for XNUMX-inch shells were stored, and a column of flame and smoke shot up to a height of XNUMX meters. This explosion tore out a section of the decks behind the first tower, demolished the forward chimney, bow house and foremast. Many sailors and non-commissioned officers who were in the bow of the dreadnought were killed, burned, wounded and thrown overboard by the blast wave. The steam line of the deck mechanisms was interrupted, the electric lights went out, the fire pumps stopped working.

      Cellars of 130-mm shells, of course, also exploded, but these were not even secondary explosions:
      Explosions followed one after the other (more 25 explosions). Detonated nasal cellars. The ship lurched onto the starboard side more and more, plunging into the water. Fire-rescue steamers, tugs, motors, boats, boats swarmed around ...
      There was an order to flood the cellars of the second tower and the adjacent cellars of 130-mm guns to partition the ship. To do this, it was necessary to penetrate the battery deck littered with corpses, into which flooded valve rods went out, where flames raged, asphyxiating fumes swirled, and every second could detonate the cellar-charged explosions.
      Senior Lieutenant Pakhomov (bilge mechanic) with selflessly brave people rushed there again. They pulled apart charred, disfigured bodies, piled up with rods, and arms, legs, heads were separated from the bodies.
      Pakhomov and his heroes freed the stocks and applied the keys, but at that moment a whirlwind of draft threw columns of flame at them, turning half the people into dust.
      Burnt, but unaware of suffering, Pakhomov brought the matter to an end and jumped onto the deck. Alas, his non-commissioned officers did not have time ... The cellars detonated, a terrible explosion captured and scattered them like fallen leaves in an autumn blizzard ...

      No one considered the version of the explosion of the cellar of 130-mm guns as the root cause of the disaster.
      Telegram from Admiral Kolchak to the Head of the General Naval Staff of the Headquarters, Admiral Alexander Ivanovich Rusin, sent on the day of the disaster:
      Secret No. 8997
      7 (20th New Style) October 1916.
      So far, it has been established that the explosion of the bow cellar was preceded by a fire that lasted approx. 2 minutes. The explosion moved the bow tower. The conning tower, forward mast and chimney were blown into the air, the upper deck up to the second tower was opened. The fire spread to the cellars of the second tower, but was extinguished. Following a series of explosions, up to 25 in number, the entire bow was destroyed. After the last strong explosion, ca. 7 o'clock 10 min., the ship began to list to starboard and at 7 o'clock. 17 min. turned over with a keel up at a depth of 8,5 sazhens. After the first explosion, the lighting immediately stopped and it was impossible to start up the pumps due to broken pipelines. The fire broke out 20 minutes later. after the team's wake-up, no work was done in the cellars. It was established that the cause of the explosion was the ignition of gunpowder in the bow 12th cellar, the explosions of the shells were a consequence. The main reason can only be either spontaneous combustion of gunpowder, or malicious intent. The commander was saved, mechanical engineer midshipman Ignatiev died from the officers, 320 lower ranks died. Being personally present on the ship, I testify that everything possible was done by his personnel to save the ship. The investigation is carried out by the commission. Kolchak.

      Maritime Minister I.K. Grigorovich (Quoted by: Grigorovich I.K. “Memoirs of the former Naval Minister”):
      My personal opinion is that it was a malicious explosion with the help of an infernal machine and that this is the work of our enemies. The success of their infernal crime was facilitated by the mess on the ship, in which the keys to the cellars were available in two copies: one hung in the closet at the sentry, and the other was in the hands of the owner of the cellars, which is not only illegal, but also criminal. In addition, it turned out that at the request of the artillery officer of the ship and with the authority of its first commander, the plant in Nikolaev destroyed the cover of the hatch leading to the powder magazine. In such a situation, it is not surprising that one of the bribed persons, disguised as a sailor, and, perhaps, in a worker's blouse, got on the ship and planted an infernal machine.
      I see no other reason for the explosion, and the investigation cannot reveal it, and everyone should go to trial. But since the Commander of the Fleet should also go to trial, I asked the sovereign to postpone it until the end of the war, and now remove the commander of the ship from command of the ship and not give appointment to those officers who are involved in the unrest on the ship.

      From the book of captain 2nd rank A.P. Lukin "Fleet: Russian sailors during the Great War and Revolution / 2 volumes. Paris, 1934. Small-circulation émigré edition”:
      In the summer of 1917, a secret agent delivered several small metal tubes to our Naval General Staff. They were found among the accessories and lacy silk underwear of a charming creature...
      Miniature tubes - "trinkets" were sent to the laboratory. They turned out to be the thinnest made of brass with chemical fuses.
      It turned out that exactly such tubes were found on the mysteriously exploded Italian dreadnought "Leonardo da Vinci". One did not ignite in a cap in a bomb cellar.
      Here is what an officer of the Italian naval headquarters, Captain 2nd Rank Luigi di Sambui, said about this:
      The investigation unequivocally established the existence of some secret organization for the explosion of ships. Its threads led to the Swiss border. But there they were lost.

      From the book "Secrets of Lost Ships" by N. Cherkashin:
      In the journal Nautical Notes, published in New York by the Society of Former Officers of the Imperial Navy, in the 1961 issue, I found a curious note signed as follows: “Captain 2nd Rank V.R. reported.”
      ... The catastrophe is still inexplicable - the death of the battleship "Empress Maria". Fires on a number of coal miners on the way from America to Europe were also inexplicable, until British intelligence established their cause.
      They were called by German "cigars", which the Germans, who apparently had their own agents who penetrated the loaders' environment, managed to plant them during loading.
      This cigar-shaped diabolical device, containing both fuel and an igniter, was ignited by a current from an electric element that came into action as soon as the acid corroded the metal membrane that blocked the access of the element's acid. Depending on the thickness of the plate, this happened several hours or even several days after the "cigar" was set up and thrown up.
      I haven't seen the blueprint for this damn toy. I only remember that it was said about a jet of flame coming out of the tip of the "cigar", in the manner of a Bunsen burner.
      It was enough for one “properly” “cigar” placed in the turret compartment to burn through the copper shell of a semi-charge. Factory artisans worked at Maria, but, one must think, the check and control were not up to par ...
      So the thought of a German "cigar" drilled my brain ... And I'm not the only one

      Once I came across a detailed article about German sabotage using these "cigars" in the United States during the First World War. The main character of the article was a lighter with a delayed action fuse. The lighter was about the size of a cigar, but it was enough to light the coal in the bunker of a steamer. - The ship went to sea and went straight to the Bermuda Triangle, but the Germans were especially good at launching American artillery depots. The most shocking thing for me in this article was that the Germans set up mass production of these "cigars" on the territory of the United States itself !!! To bring them to the territory of the Republic of Ingushetia from the USA was a piece of cake for them.
      As a child, under the impression of a chemistry textbook (there were so many interesting recipes that it was just creepy!) I made something similar to the German prototype, but without the moderator. I will not describe the recipe, otherwise serious guys will be interested in me. The size of my bells and whistles was not the size of a cigar, but the size of a cigarette. So in your pocket you could carry several of them at once. The effect is awesome! When actuated, this gadget in the blink of an eye burned through a centimeter board, followed by its ignition. The most valuable thing for those who understand. In a partisan detachment, I would have no price.
  5. -7
    20 August 2022 05: 30
    [/ quote] But let's not forget that the cause of the death of this ship was a fire that broke out in the ammunition cellars. [quote]

    In fact, the cause of Masha's death was the illiterate actions of the team. As a result, the battleship lost its stability and rolled over.
    1. +1
      20 August 2022 05: 44
      No, you are wrong. when the forward 130-mm cellar exploded, it naturally broke through the bulkhead into the forward boiler room. and at the same time the command was given to flood all the cellars. and the water flooded all the cellars of Mary, but since there was a hole in the bulkhead, the water also flooded the bow boiler room - which is why this battleship took too much water and sank from capsizing.
      1. -4
        20 August 2022 06: 02
        [/ quote] at the same time, the command was given to flood all the cellars. and the water flooded all the cellars of Mary, but since there was a hole in the bulkhead, the water also flooded the bow boiler room - which is why this battleship took too much water and sank from capsizing. [quote]


        This is a clear description of the illiterate actions of the team.
        And the flooding of the bow KO does not affect the roll in any way, it is located along the DP without a longitudinal bulkhead.
        1. 0
          20 August 2022 06: 13
          And the flooding of the bow KO does not affect the roll in any way, it is located along the DP without a longitudinal bulkhead.

          there really are no longitudinal bulkheads in the KO, and this is what killed many ships - if the boilers were separated from each other by bulkheads, then the flooding of one such small compartment would not lead to the death of many battleships and cruisers - and in particular the same titanic. - and by the way, the Briton of the same type with him had double sides. so Maria has a huge free area of ​​water in the flooded KO - which also creates a roll.
    2. +6
      20 August 2022 09: 11
      Quote: Jura 27
      In fact, the cause of Masha's death was the illiterate actions of the team.

      Wow. Can you tell me exactly what actions of the crew led to the death of the Empress Maria?
      In general, of course, to blame the crew for the death of the battleship, whose ammunition was detonated ...
      1. -1
        21 August 2022 06: 29
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Quote: Jura 27
        In fact, the cause of Masha's death was the illiterate actions of the team.

        Wow. Can you tell me exactly what actions of the crew led to the death of the Empress Maria?
        In general, of course, to blame the crew for the death of the battleship, whose ammunition was detonated ...

        I explain the materiel, for those who are not in the know: no holes were found in the bottom and sides from explosions after lifting, therefore, the loss of stability occurred from the water poured by the crew when extinguishing fires and flooding the cellars. Thus, on the face, - the illiterate actions of the team (of the officers, first of all, of course).
        1. +1
          21 August 2022 10: 05
          Quote: Jura 27
          I explain the materiel, for those who are not in the know: no holes were found in the bottom and sides from explosions after lifting

          Yura, you just open my eyes to life. laughing
          Okay, let's assume that you convinced me. The case is small: it remains for you to convince Academician A.N. Krylov, who drew up the following conclusion of the Commission of Inquiry on the death of the ship:
          On the ship "Empress Maria" at that time, the following measures were taken: an order was made and carried out to flood the cellars of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th towers; hoses from the approaching port launches were received, and jets of water were directed to the place of the main fire, a tugboat was delivered to the port steamer, and the ship was turned sideways to the wind, small fires were extinguished that had arisen in different places on the upper deck from falling burning gunpowder ribbons thrown out by separate explosions from the location of the main fire. Around 7 o'clock in the morning, the fire began to subside, as it were, the ship had neither a noticeable trim on the bow, nor a list, and it seemed that she would be saved

          That is, according to Krylov, the struggle for survivability was carried out correctly, there was no roll and trim, but
          but at 7:02 there was an explosion much stronger than the previous ones; after this explosion, the ship began to quickly land with its bow and roll to starboard

          Since the ship sank, Krylov at the time of the conclusion could not know the exact reasons and described them as follows
          Apparently, the outer side of the ship was damaged or damaged by the explosion of one of these cellars, or they blew off the clinkets of mine vehicles, or there was an explosion of charging compartments of Whitehead mines, or the kingstones that serve to flood the cellars are torn off; the ship, having decks and bulkheads destroyed over a considerable distance, could no longer endure this damage and quickly sank, capsizing from the loss of stability.

          That is, the academician gives as many as 2 reasons for possible flooding, not related to holes in the underwater part of the hull.
          Quote: Jura 27
          Thus, on the face, - the illiterate actions of the team (of the officers, first of all, of course).

          As for me, there is your desire to blame the team, not really understanding the issue.
          1. -2
            22 August 2022 06: 07
            [/ quote] That is, the academician gives as many as 2 reasons for possible flooding that are not related to holes in the underwater part of the hull. [quote]

            These are just assumptions (as with mythical holes), there is no evidence for them after the ship was raised.
            In addition, flooding through kingstones or clinkets is very slow, which the crew had to counteract in time.
            1. +2
              22 August 2022 07: 02
              Quote: Jura 27
              These are just assumptions (as with mythical holes), there is no evidence for them after the ship was raised.

              Are there any rebuttals? No. Severe damage with massive destruction of structures at the site of the bow cellars and KO are attached.
              Quote: Jura 27
              In addition, flooding through kingstones or clinkets is very slow, which the crew had to counteract in time.

              Yura27, brilliant. But nothing that in the nose a lot of people died from explosions? But nothing that the detonation of the cellars continued? It was necessary to give a damn about all this and go check what was going on in the exploding cellars?
              1. -1
                23 August 2022 16: 13
                [/quote]Are there any rebuttals? No. Severe damage with massive destruction of structures at the site of the bow cellars and KO are attached.

                The sense is from internal damage if water does not flow through the missing holes.

                It was necessary to give a damn about all this and go check what was happening there in the exploding cellars? [quote]

                Why check? You write nonsense. It was necessary to control man-made flooding, by counter-flooding.
                1. +2
                  23 August 2022 18: 41
                  Quote: Jura 27
                  Why check? You write nonsense.

                  No, Yura, you just write nonsense.
                  Quote: Jura 27
                  It was necessary to control man-made flooding, by counter-flooding.

                  Read Krylov again. While the flooding was man-made, there was no serious trim or roll. It appeared after another particularly strong explosion, and then events quickly went on the rise.
                  1. -1
                    24 August 2022 06: 53
                    [/ Quote] Read Krylov again. While the floods were man-made[quote]

                    If there are no holes below the waterline, then all floods are man-made. "L" - logic, you can't do it.
                    1. +2
                      24 August 2022 10: 05
                      Quote: Jura 27
                      If there are no holes below the waterline, then all floods are man-made

                      Yes. Damaged kingstones, for example.
                      Quote: Jura 27
                      . "L" - logic,

                      Both me and Krylov. We are so illogical :)
                      Yura, in your L-Logic, you ignored the possibility of flooding through technical holes, that is, clinkets and kingstones. And where is your vaunted logic? Did you go on vacation to the south?
  6. -5
    20 August 2022 05: 36
    In general, the message of the article is funny - it doesn’t matter that the booking of Russian battleships is cardboard, but gunpowder is in cases.
    1. +10
      20 August 2022 09: 16
      Quote: Jura 27
      Overall, the premise of the article is funny.

      Agas. But wasn’t it you, Yura27, who some time ago talked about the fact that the cellars of Russian dreadnoughts had no protection and would easily detonate?
      Quote: Jura 27
      pofik that the armor and Russian battleships are cardboard, but gunpowder is in cases.

      I thought you grew up from childhood, when it seems that the survivability of the ship depends solely on the maximum thickness of the armor indicated in the reference book.
      1. -3
        21 August 2022 06: 35
        [quote] [/ quote] Aha. But wasn’t it you, Yura27, who some time ago talked about the fact that the cellars of Russian dreadnoughts had no protection and would easily detonate? [quote] [/ quote]
        Of course they didn’t have, not to count, for the protection of the cellars, a thin metal case. The last one is really a kind of kindergarten.
        [quote] [/ quote] the survivability of the ship depends solely on the maximum thickness of the armor indicated in the reference book. [quote] [quote]
        This is how it is and also from its location. And it definitely doesn’t depend on the thickness of the cases, because. 12" shells will explode in the cellars.
        1. +3
          21 August 2022 10: 22
          Quote: Jura 27
          Of course they didn’t have, not to count, for the protection of the cellars, a thin metal case. The last one is really a kind of kindergarten.

          Kindergarten, Yura - reduce everything to armor
          Quote: Jura 27
          This is how it is and more from its location

          Of course! Here, for example, a 125-mm casemate and a 75-mm Sevastopol barbette are the bottom, the absence of any protection and a guarantee of detonation. But the 150 mm belt and 80 mm barbet on the Seydlitz are a racially correct solution that can withstand any battle. 225 mm main belt + 25 mm armor on the 12,5 mm Sevastopol substrate, an enemy projectile will easily penetrate and destroy - MO, KO, artillery cellars ... Whether it's the Seidlitz, with its 230 mm side and 50 mm bevel behind him - this is the invulnerable chariot of the gods! Oh, yes, the Seidlitz has the main armor belt of WHOLE THREE Hundred MILLIMETERS! And who cares that the 300-mm section did not even cover half of the bevel laughing
          In general, Yura27, if you already reduce everything to armor, then at least look at the protection schemes for ships that have withstood lengthy naval battles.
          1. -2
            22 August 2022 06: 15
            [/ quote] And here is a 150 mm belt and an 80 mm barbet on the Seidlitz

            You are entangled in two pines, trying to justify the unjustifiable.
            "Seidlitz", actually a battleship, not a battleship. Further one could not say anything, but still, behind a thicker belt 50mm bevel, and not 12,7 + 25,4.
            Kindergarten, Yura - reduce everything to armor [quote]

            No, kindergarten, is to reduce the protection of the cellars to the thickness of the cases for charges. It's not even funny. Or do you seriously believe that the cases will save the ship if a 12" BBS explodes among them?
            1. +1
              22 August 2022 07: 10
              Quote: Jura 27
              You are entangled in two pines, trying to justify the unjustifiable.
              "Seidlitz", actually a battleship, not a battleship.

              Designed to participate in a general battle as part of a high-speed wing, the protection of which, according to the idea of ​​the creators, was supposed to withstand the fire of LK. Yura27. "actually, the battleships" were British LCRs. And the German ones were created as high-speed battleships with weakened weapons.
              Quote: Jura 27
              No, kindergarten, is to reduce the protection of the cellars to the thickness of the cases for charges.

              And no one reduces everything to it - but the fact is that the explosions of 305-mm AP shells in the tower / barbette would not have led to the detonation of the cellars. Unlike.
              1. -2
                23 August 2022 16: 18
                [/ quote] And the German ones were created as high-speed battleships with weakened weapons. [quote]

                Oh how!!! German LCR, it turns out, is not LCR at all, but high-speed battleships with weakened weapons and at the same time weakened armor and increased speed.
                What can you think of to deny the obvious.
                That's why I like you - it's for periodic pearls. Keep it up !!!
                1. +1
                  23 August 2022 18: 53
                  Quote: Jura 27
                  Oh how!!! German LCR, it turns out, is not LCR at all, but high-speed battleships with weakened weapons and at the same time weakened armor and increased speed.
                  What can you think of to deny the obvious.

                  Yura27, if you are at odds with history and do not know that the German LCRs were created to participate in the general battle as a high-speed wing, then these are your personal problems. But he wrote:
                  The main ideas of the German battlecruiser were expressed by the Kaiser, he was supported by the Imperial Naval Ministry. In a memorandum dated June 29/30, 1906, entitled "Large cruiser 1907 and subsequent years" (the German "Navy Law" regulated the laying of warships by year, so that meant a cruiser laid down in 1907 and ships of the same class in the future), an excellent justification was given for the German type of battlecruiser. The main theses of the memorandum were as follows:

                  1) the British fleet has a significant superiority in the classic armored cruisers (the Germans used the term "big cruiser", but we will continue to write "armored" for both German and English ships to avoid confusion because of the performance of English shipyards will continue in the future;

                  2) therefore, any independent operations of a few German armored cruisers, regardless of where they are carried out, are doomed to failure. Whether it is reconnaissance or other actions in the North Sea, or the classic struggle on ocean communications - in the end, the armored cruisers of Germany will be intercepted and destroyed;

                  3) in accordance with the foregoing, Germany should completely abandon the construction of armored cruisers, and instead lay the new class of ships - high-speed battleships, whose main task will be to participate in the general battle as a high-speed wing.

                  Do you think these are my personal fantasies? No, it's Staff. And he, let me say, in the German LKR understood a little more than yours
                  1. -1
                    24 August 2022 06: 50
                    [/ quote] Jura27, if you are at odds with history and don’t know that the German LCRs were created to participate in the general battle as a high-speed wing, [quote]

                    And the English LCRs were created solely to protect trade, or what?
                    And here it is, "Grossen Kreuzer", how is it translated in your reality? "Speedy battleship" - I guessed it?
                    1. +2
                      24 August 2022 09: 58
                      Quote: Jura 27
                      And the English LCRs were created solely to protect trade, or what?

                      The British themselves did not really know why the British LCR were created. You are ashamed not to know about it.
                      Quote: Jura 27
                      And here it is, "Grossen Kreuzer", how is it translated in your reality?

                      Yura27, I bring to your attention that the determining factor in the purpose of the ship is not the name, but the tasks that the ship solves. So, for example, if the task of the ship is a squadron battle, then it is deep purple whether it is called a squadron battleship, a 1st class battleship or a battleship.
                      The purpose of the German LCR is squadron combat. And the Germans designed their defense precisely from these conditions.
              2. -1
                23 August 2022 16: 21
                [/ quote] And no one reduces everything to it - but the fact is that explosions of 305-mm AP shells in the tower / barbette would not have led to the detonation of the cellars. [quote]


                And where does the gaps in the towers and barbets have to do with it, if it was about the poor protection of the cellars used?
                This is exactly what you remember.
                1. +2
                  23 August 2022 18: 54
                  Quote: Jura 27
                  And where does the gaps in the towers and barbets have to do with it, if it was about the poor protection of the cellars used?

                  And many shells exploded in the cellars of the German 280-mm battlecruisers? They have very similar defenses.
                  1. -1
                    24 August 2022 06: 00
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Quote: Jura 27
                    And where does the gaps in the towers and barbets have to do with it, if it was about the poor protection of the cellars used?

                    And many shells exploded in the cellars of the German 280-mm battlecruisers? They have very similar defenses.

                    And were they fired upon with full-fledged BBSs capable of penetrating the lower part of the GPU?
                    1. +1
                      24 August 2022 09: 52
                      And what does the lower part of the GP have to do with it, why is it impossible to break through the upper one with the entry of the cellar? But the question is not this, but the fact that the LKR of Germany was defended for a considerable length in a manner similar to Sevastopol.
  7. +1
    20 August 2022 06: 07
    Andrey did not consider another very important circumstance: it turns out that the fuses were not screwed into the shells of the main caliber in advance, but instead of them a plug was inserted, and this plug was turned out on the charging table and the fuses were screwed in instead.
    and the death of Marat may have occurred for this reason - on the day before his death, the middle barrel of a 305 mm gun was torn off. and when repelling a raid by German aircraft, they were going to shoot at them even from 30-5 mm guns with shrapnel, and it is likely that three shells were fired at the charging table instead of two and the fuse was not screwed into the remaining unused shell, and the loan from the German bomb hit it rolled in it - gunpowder exploded in a shrapnel shell - and the battleship Marat fired shrapnel at itself. - into the powder cellar
  8. -1
    20 August 2022 06: 55
    "Sabotage is not ruled out." You are kidding the author. A pure water sabotage by a group led by Scout Verman. The group was formed back in Nikolaev, it was supervised by the German vice-consul.
    1. +3
      20 August 2022 09: 18
      Quote: Victor19
      You are kidding the author. A pure water sabotage by a group led by scout Verman.

      And you, of course, have direct evidence of the participation of this group in undermining the "Empress Maria"?
      1. 0
        20 August 2022 09: 45
        During the investigation, Alexei Krylov, a member of the Special Investigation Commission, came to the conclusion that discipline was very poorly set on the ship and very serious deviations from the charter were allowed. This situation was caused by several reasons: the constant rotation of officers and sailors, the presence of a large number of outsiders who performed various kinds of work on fine-tuning the ship, the lack of established experience in operating dreadnoughts, and others. And in the early 30s, the OGPU arrested a group of people, among whom was Verman. They confessed to working for German intelligence, and Wehrman additionally said that it was he who organized the sabotage on the battleship. Its direct executor was a certain Sbignev, also arrested by the OGPU.
        1. +2
          20 August 2022 09: 56
          Quote: Victor19
          And in the early 30s, the OGPU arrested a group of people, among whom was Verman. They confessed to working for German intelligence, and Wehrman additionally said that it was he who organized the sabotage on the battleship

          Sorry, but by evidence, I mean a link to some documents at least. Verman's group was arrested a long time ago, and the same Vinogradov cannot find confirmation of the sabotage version even today.
          1. 0
            20 August 2022 14: 34
            What documents are you talking about. Unfortunately, German saboteurs and Italian combat swimmers did not leave documents either in 1916 or in 1955.
            1. +4
              20 August 2022 14: 45
              Quote: Victor19
              What documents are you talking about.

              Yes, at least about the protocols of interrogations.
              Quote: Victor19
              Italian combat swimmers, unfortunately, did not leave documents either in 1916 or in 1955.

              In your opinion, the Italians drowned Novorossiysk?! :)))
      2. +1
        20 August 2022 17: 32
        Andrew, good afternoon and best wishes! smile

        I also read about the Verman group, if I’m mistaken from Yolkin, and he seemed to have information about this sabotage directly from the Office. I saw a series of several successive photographs of the explosion of the "Empress", I somehow do not really believe in the accidental appearance of a photographer in the right place and at the right time, especially considering the bulkiness of the then photographic equipment.
        But, in any case, our usual gouging is to blame here with the lack of proper control over the artisans and the strict discipline of the battleship team.
        Yes, and Kolchak did not seem to doubt that this was a diversion.
        1. +2
          20 August 2022 18: 12
          Quote: Sea Cat
          I also read about the Verman group, if I’m mistaken from Yolkin, and he seemed to have information about this sabotage directly from the Office

          If I'm not mistaken, this is more of a work of art than a documentary.
          Quote: Sea Cat
          Yes, and Kolchak did not seem to doubt that this was a diversion.

          I also fully admit that this is a sabotage, and moreover, I myself am inclined to this version. It explains everything and is technically possible. But I have no evidence for this hypothesis.
  9. +6
    20 August 2022 07: 54
    Finally, at least something worthy of attention appeared on the site Yes good ...
    Plus hi
    1. +5
      20 August 2022 09: 18
      Greetings, Andrey Nikolaevich! hi
      1. +2
        20 August 2022 21: 14
        Hello again, dear namesake hi drinks Finally, in the evening in Minsk, I got to the computer. Due to a number of life circumstances, I now have a total lack of time. Something has to be sacrificed. Or, as the smart people would say now, optimize your queries. Therefore, the amount of time on VO has decreased significantly, as well as comments. Rarely does anything get my attention. request laughing laughing laughing But! Favorite topic, dear author, a cell after a busy day at work (fortunately, I’m not driving tomorrow - I don’t suffer from this garbage, but I really need to relax feel ). So I will speak hi
        I would classify this material as an addition to the Sevastopol cycle. And it is quite interesting in terms of understanding the approach to the combat stability of the ship. Especially when considered in the context of booking "sevastopol". Whatever one may say, opinions differ on this matter. I remember that you, dear colleague, adhere to the fact that the armor of our dreadnoughts is pretty good. Probably, for the design time and laying of these ships, against hypothetical opponents in the form of German dreadnoughts with their 280-305mm guns and light shells .. And security additional measures to protect the ammunition looks like a pretty significant addition to protect the ship ..
        Now, if it were possible to check in practice, then many questions would be removed. smile
        And so the influence of the RYAV was visible in a number of countries, both on the performance characteristics of their ships ("Sevastopol"), and on the tactics of battle. What is there, Pashen himself, the senior artilleryman of "Luttsov", recalled that he did not shoot with land mines, according to the experience of Tsushima, in the beginning of Jutland, "Lyon" would be at the bottom, like his "colleagues", who were hammered with armor-piercing .. So everything is relative. If there hadn’t been an accident with the Oslyabey, when the battleship received critical damage to the bow almost standing still, then the Russians could have had slightly different views on booking. And so the corrections for speed, which gave hits in the middle of the ship (according to statistics - "Peresvet" will not let you escape, it then perfectly withstood the battle in the Yellow Sea), fell on the bow of the ship, then led to disaster. As a result, the post-war projects of Russian ships were built on the maximum protection area of ​​the ship's projection based on the resistance to land mines. After all, the combat stability of the “Borodino” to land mines without loss of speed is indicative. And if “Rurik” is still excusable due to the smaller difference in the thickness of the protection against the hypothetical caliber of the shells used on it, then for the “Sevastopols” this value is already unpleasant, especially against the background of an increase in the main battery of considered opponents. Like it or not, 225mm against 380mm shells is not comme il faut. Here, even the maximum measures to protect the supplied ammunition will not help ...
        Again, we can only reason on this subject from scant examples, based on admissible guesses.
        So you, dear colleague, brought me back to life on the site with your article. I definitely won’t read Shpakovsky avidly, going to bed in my youth with A.B. Zhuk’s guide to small arms, where Smith-Wesson model 29 .44 Magnum and Colt "Python" with a hunting bear "Desert Eagle" were the authorities lol
        So, dear namesake, I look forward to your materials on the topic of 1904 - 1917. on a maritime theme. always at your service, I drinks hi
        1. +4
          21 August 2022 10: 27
          Quote: Rurikovich
          What is there, Pashen himself, the senior artilleryman of "Luttsov", recalled that if he had not fired with land mines, according to Tsushima's experience, in the tie-up of Jutland, the "Lion" would have been at the bottom, like his "colleagues", which were hollowed out by armor-piercing ..

          I'm just preparing an article-analysis of the damage to "Lion" :)))
          And so the corrections for speed, which gave hits in the middle of the ship (according to statistics - "Peresvet" will not let you escape, it then perfectly withstood the battle in the Yellow Sea), fell on the bow of the ship, then led to disaster.

          So they came to the unarmored window at Peresvet, the similarity with Oslyabey is amazing ...
          Quote: Rurikovich
          Like it or not, 225mm against 380mm shells is not comme il faut. Here, even the maximum measures to protect the supplied ammunition will not help ...

          By itself. Against 343-mm shells and above with QUALITY AP shells, the defense of the "Sevastopol" no longer danced. But the Germans had only 2 380-mm battleships, and those appeared already at the end of the war. And the British had high-quality BBs after the war.
          Quote: Rurikovich
          So you, dear colleague, brought me back to life on the site with your article

          soldier Always happy:)))
          1. +2
            21 August 2022 13: 52
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            I'm just preparing an article-analysis of the damage to "Lion" :)))

            It will be interesting to read good Pashen, of course, can say whatever you want, but I myself wonder how a high-explosive projectile could penetrate the 90mm armor of the roof of the Layon GK turret? what Or was it not high-explosive? ... Or was it high-explosive, but everything turned out so that it still broke through? In short, a lot of questions request
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            So they came to the unarmored window at Peresvet, the similarity with Oslyabey is amazing.

            Well, EMNIP, the shell in "Oslyabya" almost hit the waterline, and in "Peresvet" they landed above it, at least in the area of ​​​​the bow breaker. All the same, there is a difference. And although they seem to have coped with the flow of water, according to the same Sablin
            At the site of the hole at that time were: senior officer Captain 2nd rank Pokhvisnev and bilge mechanic Uspensky.
            After a while, I asked the senior officer how they dealt with the hole. He replied that it was impossible to close the hole, but the water was dealt with and the hole now poses no danger.

            a start was made. The arguments of the apologists for the rapid-fire guns of the late 19th century were confirmed, that the battleship can be drowned by destroying the unarmored extremities .. Therefore, if the "Peresvet" survived in battle with classmates, then the faster-firing guns of the Japanese armored cruisers, which fired at the ship almost everything, did their job. ..
            1. +4
              21 August 2022 13: 59
              Quote: Rurikovich
              how could a high-explosive projectile pierce the 90mm armor of the roof of the Layon GK turret?

              The German "land mine" had thick walls and a delayed fuse, like an armor-piercing one. So he was a "land mine" only on paper.
              1. +3
                21 August 2022 14: 50
                It also had more weight than the armor-piercing one, and the absence of a "Makarov" cap

                high explosive on the right smile
                Maybe he could break through ....
  10. 0
    20 August 2022 08: 28
    Obviously, the designers of Soviet tanks with automatic loading did not know (or did not want to know) anything about all this. In the fighting compartment of the tank - open charges of gunpowder with short pallets instead of shells. But how much the design is simplified - a shot pallet is easier to remove from the tower than a long sleeve. Profit!
    1. -1
      20 August 2022 09: 34
      In the fighting compartment of the tank - open charges of gunpowder with short pallets instead of shells. But how much the design is simplified - a shot pallet is easier to remove from the tower than a long sleeve.

      Yes, you are completely right. Andrey didn’t even mention that on German battleships there were two types of powder semi-charges - the front ones were ordinary in silk, and the rear ones were in brass shells. And this also increased their fire safety. similarly to tanks - gunpowder in metal cases is safer.
      I have a strong belief that the death of tanks from cumulative ammunition occurs because the smallest fragments fall on powder charges and they flare up - killing the tank crew with fire and smoke, and then the projectiles heated by fire explode.
      1. +2
        20 August 2022 10: 54
        Quote: geniy
        Andrey didn’t even mention that on German battleships there were two types of powder semi-charges - the front ones were ordinary in silk, and the rear ones were in brass shells. And this also increased their fire safety.

        Yes. And as soon as 6 tons of gunpowder burned down at the Seidlitz at the Dogger Bank?
        1. 0
          20 August 2022 11: 56
          Yes. And as soon as 6 tons of gunpowder burned down at the Seidlitz at the Dogger Bank?
          And so it burned down. because a metal brass sleeve gives better protection against fire than silk - but only for a few minutes. and then, in a long fire, the laun shells will heat up and the gunpowder inside them will flare up.
          1. +2
            20 August 2022 12: 05
            Is it okay that on Seydlitz it was the ignition of 6 tons of gunpowder that caused a long fire? :))))
            Okay, I will not torment you with materiel. I will limit myself to reminding you that the combination of containers for charges (steel and sealed) and steel filing boxes provided much better fire safety than German shells
            1. 0
              20 August 2022 12: 41
              the combination of containers for charges (steel and sealed) and steel filing boxes provided much better fire safety than German shells
              why dispute it? it’s just that you are comparing German battleships with Russians, and by this factor the Russians are a little better, and I am comparing the German system with the English - the British did not have shells at all.
      2. 0
        20 August 2022 14: 27
        Quote: geniy
        the smallest fragments hit the powder charges and they flare up - killing the crew of the tank with fire and smoke, and then the shells heated by the fire explode.


        If this were so, the tankers would have guessed to cover the charges with panels of aluminum, copper or brass foil folded several times, siliconized fiberglass or asbestos fabric.
        1. 0
          21 August 2022 11: 23
          If this were so, the tankers would have guessed to cover the charges with panels of aluminum, copper or brass foil folded several times, siliconized fiberglass or asbestos fabric.

          And what period are you actually talking about: about the Great Patriotic War or the times of the 60-80s that are closer to us? When automatic loading appeared - but after all, any additional materials - aluminum, copper brass foil, fiberglass or asbestos fabric simply will not allow the automatic loading mechanism to work.
          1. +1
            21 August 2022 14: 38
            Quote: geniy
            but after all, any additional materials - aluminum, copper brass foil, fiberglass or asbestos fabric - simply will not allow the automatic loading mechanism to work.


            Only if the designer did not take care of working with such a shelter. Cases for robots, for example, are also available for welding and steelmaking robots, and they do not interfere with these machines - you can look at them on the Internet in specialized online stores. If loading is manual, then it's even easier. It’s quite a direction for the modernization of armored vehicles - the introduction of all kinds of protective covers, sleeves, blinds, pneumatic chambers, covers, reinforcements, casings, bags, for charges, shells and other unsafe or demanding equipment.
            1. -1
              22 August 2022 12: 16
              Only if the designer did not take care of working with such a shelter. Cases .... If manual loading is still easier. It’s quite a direction for the modernization of armored vehicles - the introduction of all kinds of protective covers, sleeves, blinds, pneumatic chambers, covers, reinforcements, casings, bags, for charges, shells and other unsafe or demanding equipment.

              I am personally working on even more radical proposals of two opposite types at once. This is either the use for tanks of guns with liquid propellants, or the storage of ammunition in water tanks. LMW must be separate - separately fuel and separately oxidizer. fuel - perhaps kerosene and the oxidizing agent - either nitric acid or hydrogen peroxide. Naturally, both of these liquids should be stored on the floor of the tank in the least affected part and far from each other. however, the real volume of these liquids is very small compared to solid powder and will provide much more energy.
              and the second way - storing ammunition in water - shells and powder charges, it would seem very simple, but in reality it is difficult, since water turns into ice in winter in the cold and it will not be easy to pull ammunition out of the ice.
              and by the way - my proposal is not at all a departure from the topic of the author of protecting the cellars of Russian battleships - because I believe that on battleships and on all ships in general, ammunition had to be stored in water. but I perfectly understand that it is only in words just to say, but in reality this will cause a large number of intractable problems.
              and with regard to your proposal, it is very correct, since my proposal is difficult to implement and only on tanks of the future generation, but what can and should be done right now is to cover ammunition with at least covers - asbestos or others, possibly impregnated with silicone liquids.
              1. 0
                22 August 2022 20: 43
                Instead of ice or water, try using a backfill, such as granules of slow-burning, non-static plastic, or pieces of metal tubing or metal bands. They have enough heat capacity to absorb the heat of random sparks and they block the access of sparks to gunpowder.
                1. 0
                  22 August 2022 21: 59
                  yes, this is a very interesting idea, I will write it down with your permission - maybe it will be possible to offer the military
                  1. 0
                    22 August 2022 22: 19
                    By the way, liquids are different and not only aqueous solutions are non-combustible. It is possible to use magnetic non-aqueous non-flammable liquids or fog, foam of non-aqueous solutions or powders, fibers from an ultrasonic generator in a container, as magnetically controlled spark protection. The containers themselves can be soft flexitanks, passing into any narrowness.
                    1. 0
                      22 August 2022 23: 39
                      I don't know much of what you mentioned...
                      but I considered myself the most knowledgeable person in the field of physical effects ... how can all this be translated into real practice at least a little ...
      3. +1
        21 August 2022 00: 59
        Quote: geniy
        Andrey didn’t even mention that on German battleships there were two types of powder semi-charges - the front ones were ordinary in silk, and the rear ones were in brass shells. And this also increased their fire safety. similarly to tanks - gunpowder in metal cases is safer.

        It has nothing to do with any such special fire safety, because. even the number of front semi-charges in caps is quite enough for a fire. The Germans used the main charge in the shell not because of its "fire safety", but primarily because of the design features of their guns. While other countries used piston locks for their large-caliber guns (for example, Velina), the Germans used a wedge lock to increase the rate of fire even in large-caliber guns. And since the wedge gate, unlike the piston one, could not guarantee reliable obturation, the breakthrough of powder gases into the fighting compartment, this role of additional protection was performed by the bottom of the sleeve.
        1. +1
          21 August 2022 07: 13
          obturation, breakthrough of powder gases into the fighting compartment, this role of additional protection was just performed by the bottom of the sleeve.

          On the one hand, you are absolutely right that the German engineers, by introducing brass shells for semi-charges, did not at all set themselves the goal of increasing the fire safety of ships. But the fact is that in technology it very often happens that, having introduced some fundamental technical change or improvement, they suddenly receive ADDITIONAL improvements (or deterioration) in other parameters. and the fact is that in naval battles there are such situations that after a period of frequent firing, the gun barrels become very hot, and despite this they are loaded again and then suddenly there is a break in firing - and the gunpowder is already in the hot barrel! and there were cases of spontaneous shots from heating - they were called a LONG SHOT. so the metal sleeve to some extent protected against this, and in other situations, although the Germans themselves did not know about it.

          ---------------------------------------
          but I didn’t know about the wedge gates of German guns at all - please enlighten me.
          1. +1
            21 August 2022 09: 39
            Quote: geniy
            but I didn’t know about the wedge gates of German guns at all - please enlighten me.

            For example, LKR type "Derflinger" - 30,5cm / 50 SK / L50 C / 12 (Hindenburg - C / 13) - 305 mm gun using the method of fastening cylinders with a wedge horizontal sliding gate of the Krupp system. LK type "Bayern" - 38 cm L / 45 SK C / 13 - 380 mm gun for bonded technology with a wedge horizontally sliding prismatic breech. Later "Deutschlands", "Scharnhorsts", "Bismarck" received already lined guns, but all with the same horizontally sliding wedge bolt. For example - "Deutschland" 28cm/52 SK C/28 or "Bismarck" 38cm/52 SK C/34 Something like that. Sincerely hi
            1. +1
              21 August 2022 10: 18
              Great information! I didn't pay any attention to it...
          2. 0
            21 August 2022 10: 10
            Quote: geniy
            in naval battles there are such situations that after a period of frequent firing, the gun barrels become very hot, and despite this they are loaded again and then suddenly there is a break in firing - and the gunpowder is already in the hot barrel! and there were cases of spontaneous shots from heating - they were called a LONG SHOT.

            As far as I read, a LONG shot is a delay in a shot after the ignition mechanism has been triggered. The quality of the gunpowder, the marriage of the ignition mechanism, etc. What you described is a shot due to overheating. In general, of course, anything can happen in battle. I’ll also add that for such situations, firstly, instructions have been developed (the shutter opening schedule, the amount of waiting time, etc.), and secondly, the design of the gun itself is the fuses for opening the shutter when the gun is loaded, blowing the channel barrel with compressed air. hi
            1. 0
              21 August 2022 10: 26
              Of course, I know perfectly well what a long shot is. but I was also convinced many times that very often writers and journalists confuse all concepts and call white black and regarding a protracted shot - now I can’t find the text and quote it exactly, but in the American fleet on battleships there was a situation several times when, after intense shooting in a loaded gun, suddenly gunpowder ignited or a shot occurred - this happened 4-5 times. And once, after spontaneous combustion of gunpowder, one American dreadnought, possibly Texas or Arizona, returned to the port and, right in the port near an American city, it spontaneously fired from one main gun. so consider - this is not a protracted shot?
              1. +2
                21 August 2022 11: 15
                Quote: geniy
                And once, after spontaneous combustion of gunpowder, one American dreadnought, possibly Texas or Arizona, returned to the port and, right in the port near an American city, it spontaneously fired from one main gun. so consider - this is not a protracted shot?

                I have already quoted you word for word the definition of a protracted shot - a delay in the shot after the ignition mechanism has been triggered. And you tell me the same thing again, in other words. I won't argue, I don't want to. And about the case you described, it’s generally either some kind of prohibitive negligence, or even bullshit! Those. after firing, none of the commanding officers and privates bothered to check the materiel, maintenance work, etc., and the battleship with loaded guns went to the base? Well.... request
                1. 0
                  21 August 2022 13: 08
                  I have already quoted you word for word the definition of a protracted shot - a delay in the shot after the ignition mechanism has been triggered. And you tell me the same thing again, in other words. I won't argue, I don't want to.
                  Formally, you and Stankov are absolutely right - but I say again that writers and journalists often misinterpret concepts.
                  well, I also called the spontaneous shot from heating protracted
                  And about the case you described, it’s generally either some kind of prohibitive negligence, or even bullshit! Those. after firing, none of the commanding officers and privates bothered to check the materiel, maintenance work, etc., and the battleship with loaded guns went to the base? Well...request

                  THIS IS A REAL HISTORICAL FACT
                  unfortunately I can't find the exact reference to proof of this right now
                  and the essence there was such that at first there was an explosion, it seems, in the bow tower of the main battery with many dead, and from this the dreadnought returned to the port where a spontaneous shot occurred
                  1. +2
                    21 August 2022 13: 35
                    Quote: geniy
                    and the essence there was such that at first there was an explosion, it seems, in the bow tower of the main battery with many dead, and from this the dreadnought returned to the port where a spontaneous shot occurred

                    This is another matter. I would immediately write the details and no questions! And then I really thought, what kind of nonsense? Even at the machine gun, after firing, a whole series of manipulations is put - disconnected the store, pulled the shutter, closed the fuse, REPORTED! And then after firing the main caliber and no one is anything? request Next time please write all the details. hi
          3. 0
            21 August 2022 12: 05
            A protracted shot is a phenomenon that has no connection with the idle time of the projectile in the chamber. Spontaneous shot from an increase in temp. cannot come. If the powder in the charge is overheated, the barrel can swell or even detonate the powder. When cap loading, a spontaneous shot may occur due to the smoldering residue of the previous charge - fabric, cardboard, soot.
    2. +3
      20 August 2022 09: 41
      Quote: DenVB
      In the fighting compartment of the tank - open charges of gunpowder with short pallets instead of shells.

      Yes. But you forgot to mention a couple of facts. Firstly, the role of the sleeve to a certain extent is performed by the steel body of the conveyor. And secondly, the sleeve does not at all guarantee the absence of ignition, which is why the same Americans carried the BC to a separate part of the tower
    3. +2
      20 August 2022 14: 24
      hi
      Where feminists are launched into a tank, shells are stored in cases in the lower-rear part of the hull (the least affected).

      Photo taken from here: https://david-2.livejournal.com/512849.html
      If we ignore the beautiful eyes, then to the right of them you can see the cylinders - these are IMHO cases.

      True, on Merkava4 - at the level of rumors feel - the "dry tower" was "a little abandoned" No. in favor of simplification of loading.
    4. +3
      20 August 2022 16: 04
      The photo is hard to see.

      Here is a video where behind the brown eyes of Liat on the right you can see from the first seconds the dark red containers for shells in the tank, IMHO.


      IMHO, feminists and .... and the rest are somehow connected with the fire safety of the tank.
  11. +2
    20 August 2022 09: 18
    A small chronology of the death of ships outside of battle only during the First World War, in addition to
    "Empress Maria" and the Mikasa explosion on September 11, 1905 in Sasebo.
    1) November 26, 1914 Raid Sheerness, River Thames. The explosion of the battleship Bulvark.
    2) September 15, 1915 Explosion on the Italian battleship Benedetto Brin.
    3) December 30, 1915 Cromarty. Fire and explosion of powder magazines on the cruiser "Natal".
    4) August 2, 1916 Taranto. Battleship Leonardo da Vinci. An explosion while loading ammunition.
    5) July 9, 1917 Scapa Flow. The explosion of the battleship "Vanguard".
    Yes, cordite is a dangerous thing. Especially for the Italians and the British.
    1. 0
      20 August 2022 09: 36
      and pay attention - gunpowder explosions occurred mainly on battleships, and very rarely on cruisers. because cruisers have gunpowder in cartridge cases, and battleships and armadillos have gunpowder in silk caps.
    2. 0
      20 August 2022 10: 15
      The French exploded so well - Jena, Liberte.
    3. ban
      -1
      23 August 2022 08: 53
      They also forgot Tsukuba and Kawachi, Glatton, Karlsruhe
  12. 0
    20 August 2022 09: 32
    Interesting article.
    As I understand it, on the Izmails, the arrangement of the cellars was similar?
    1. +1
      20 August 2022 10: 07
      There is no exact indication of this, but you must admit, it would be strange if this were not the case.
      1. 0
        20 August 2022 10: 16
        Those. described in a series of articles about "Izmail", this variant of defeat most likely did not lead to the death of the ship?
        1. +1
          20 August 2022 10: 38
          Quote: doktorkurgan
          this defeat option most likely did not lead to the death of the ship?

          It is likely that yes.
  13. +1
    20 August 2022 10: 34
    Quote: geniy
    cruisers are very rare. because cruisers have gunpowder in their shells

    It depends on which cruiser. "Natal" is an armored cruiser with 234 mm guns, so
    loading is probably separate. Well, about light cruisers - why did it explode
    "Karlsruhe" November 4, 1914?
    1. 0
      20 August 2022 11: 35
      "Natal" is an armored cruiser with 234 mm guns, so
      loading is probably separate. Well, about light cruisers - why did it explode
      "Karlsruhe" November 4, 1914?

      That's exactly what, according to the classification - Natal is a cruiser, and in terms of the nature of loading the main caliber guns - it is close to battleships, that is, separate loading.
      And the explosion of Karlsruhe is probably from overheating of the cellars in a tropical climate. perhaps for some time the cooling of the cellars was turned off and all the shells heated up, and then a fire started and all the heated shells exploded at the same time. in exactly the same way, everything happened on the Empress Maria - after all, hundreds of shells of 130-mm guns exploded there at the same time due to preheating.
  14. +1
    20 August 2022 12: 25
    All these general assumptions of yours that the Empress Maria was allegedly blown up by German spies are absolutely wrong.
    as if a German group of spies is already from the city of Nikolaev! as if there was no place closer to Sevastopol for spies
    secondly, the NKVD used various tortures to force innocent people to confess to anything - so there is no faith in them that the Germans blew it up.
    thirdly: this battleship came after a long campaign and loaded coal for two days - so there were no workers from the shore before the explosion. - in other months there were workers but there were no explosions.
    fourthly, an armored conning tower was thrown off by an explosion - and it was under it that there was a cellar of 130-mm ammunition.
    fifthly, sailors were sleeping in each 305-mm tower - and if a fire started in its cellar, the sailors of the tower would feel it - it was precisely that the fire started in the 130-mm cellars - which were locked. and this is a misconception of eyewitnesses that the sailors wound fire hoses into a 305 mm tower - in fact, into the ventilation holes of 130 mm cartridges
    sixthly: none of you knows the fact that in every cellar there was a temperature recording device - a thermograph that recorded the temperature in the cellar. so this device (2 devices) from the 305-mm bow cellar survived safely and showed a temperature of 60 and 90 C - that is, there was no fire in the bow cellar at all.
    seventhly: wings are either stupid or a deceiver, because in 1918 Maria was raised and it turned out that all the powder charges of the 305-mm bow turret were safe and sound - they were then fired on tests - and this fact is carefully hidden by all false historians in ohm number and grape.
    eighth: if the explosion had occurred under the bow 305-mm tower, then it would have been lifted up and dropped, and allegedly it was only "pushed"
    1. 0
      20 August 2022 14: 30
      Krylov is either stupid or a deceiver,
      N. Krylov was an outstanding mathematician and mechanic, engineer and inventor. To say that he is stupid or a deceiver - this speaks of your mental baggage. He designed pre-war battleships before WWI and headed a commission to investigate the death of a battleship. Actually, the commission immediately came to the conclusion that the battleship in Sevastopol turned into a passage yard for everyone. His conclusions are consistent with Verman's testimony. Nikolaev is the place where battleships for the Black Sea Fleet were built. And there is nothing surprising in this that the group is from there. Krylov devoted several articles to this event. "On the death of the battleship Empress Maria" - the main article. The NKVD did not exist then. And all these first and second are only your versions. Spontaneous combustion and other versions of the commission identified as unlikely. The sabotage was the main one.
      1. 0
        20 August 2022 14: 42
        The fact that you did not read military history literature - so no one is to blame for this. you don’t even know that in Bizerte, wings showed a dovetail armor connection that did not exist on that battleship, you don’t even know that wings didn’t design battleships, but only participated in the commission for reviewing other people’s projects, and also that wings participated in the investigation - so They didn't know for sure who was to blame. and also wings either did not find out until his death that the ammunition of the bow turret was raised and did not write about it in his book of 1945, and all your other attacks are complete nonsense.
        1. -1
          20 August 2022 16: 34
          you don't even know that krylov didn't design battleships
          Lying dear
          With a feeling of special pride, Krylov wrote in Memoirs: “25 years have passed since these battleships entered service. All foreign peers of our battleships have long been turned into scrap, while ours proudly sail through the waters of the Baltic and the Black Sea.
          "Your excellent "Marat" has honorably carried out the socialist watch for 18 years."
          With this greeting from Comrade Voroshilov to the battleship Marat, with these words I have reason to be proud and believe that the promise I made in 1908 has been fulfilled.
          After another 30 years, Admiral N.G. Kuznetsov, who for a long time was the commander-in-chief of our Naval Forces, talking about the pre-war years and, in particular, about the ships that honorably carried combat pennants in the Great Patriotic War, wrote in the book “On the Eve”: “So, before starting the construction of battleships of the type“ Sevastopol" held an international competition. A Russian project developed under the guidance of our famous shipbuilder A.N. Krylov, turned out to be the most successful, and the battleships built according to it for a long time were the most advanced in the world.
        2. +2
          20 August 2022 17: 07
          Quote: geniy
          you don’t even know that Krylov didn’t design battleships, but only participated in the commission to review other people’s projects

          And again you are wrong.
          The initial project of the Baltic Plant was indeed made without the participation of Krylov, but then, at the end of the competition, it was Krylov who supervised further design work, supervised them, personally checked the work of the technical bureau, and made significant changes. So, for example, it was at the insistence of Krylov that an increase in the power of machines was pushed through (with a change in the types of boilers), which allowed the ships to develop 23 and even 24 knots. Simply put, in September 1908 he was put to steer the MTC, so he did take the most active part in the design of these ships.
          1. -1
            20 August 2022 17: 28
            Yeah! The Commander-in-Chief of the Navy says that Academician Krylov was the head of the project, and he himself was proud of this life's work, but I must believe Andrei from Chelyabinsk. Once they lied, they will no longer believe.
            1. +2
              20 August 2022 17: 55
              Quote: Victor19
              but I must believe

              Religious issues are sacred to me laughing You can believe in anything. I prefer to KNOW.
              1. -1
                20 August 2022 18: 06
                What religion is here if you contradict the facts?!
                1. +4
                  20 August 2022 18: 41
                  Quote: Victor19
                  What religion is here if you contradict the facts?!

                  I have listed the facts above. The fact is that Krylov was not an employee of the Baltic Plant, but he was a member of the commission that accepted the projects. The fact is also that at the competition the project of the Baltic Plant lost to the German one, Blom-und-Voss (from the point of view of the MTK, headed by Krylov), and from the point of view of the Moscow State School of Music, the project did not even enter the top three.
                  And it is absolutely reliably known that the project of the Baltic Shipyard, which was submitted for the competition, was created under the guidance of another eminent shipbuilder - I.G. Bubnova, it's a shame not to know.
                  And in the future, it was Bubnov who did the same technical project, although under the supervision of Krylov.
                  Therefore, of course, it should be recognized that Krylov took an active part in the creation of Sevastopol (if not for him, a different project might have been chosen altogether). The contours of the battleship were worked out in the experimental pool when Krylov was in charge. I have already written about a number of his innovations above. But he, of course, was not the creator of the Sevastopol-class battleship project.
                  Quote: Victor19
                  Commander-in-Chief of the Navy says that Academician Krylov was the head of the project

                  That's it. Krylov, being the head of the MTK (despite the fact that the experimental pool also remained behind him), in principle, could not have time for design - he just oversaw the work that other people did. He designed the battleships Bubnov.
                  1. -4
                    20 August 2022 19: 01
                    You are a contradiction to what Kuznetsov and Krylov himself says. He was the project leader. And how do you know if he had time or not. Leading shipbuilding engineer of Tsarist Russia, and you say that he simply oversaw the project. He took part and did the calculations.
                    1. +4
                      20 August 2022 19: 14
                      Quote: Victor19
                      You are a contradiction to what Kuznetsov and Krylov himself say

                      Really? Well, let's open Krylov's "Memoirs". Chapter "The appointment of me as the chief inspector of shipbuilding. The appointment of me as the acting chairman of the Marine Technical Committee. Activities in these positions. How our first battleships were designed"
                      Read
                      Immediately, I noticed that from the point of view of the structural mechanics of the ship, the best, far leaving behind all other projects, isproject of the Baltic Shipyard, developed under the guidance of Professor of the Marine Academy of Ship Engineer I.G. Bubnov.

                      and further
                      Since the project of the Baltic Shipyard was the second in the competition, and the first in the design of the ship's hull, It was ordered to proceed with the detailed development of this project in the technical bureau of the plant.

                      And further
                      On my recommendation, the comrade of the Minister of Marine, the plant was asked to conduct this development under the guidance of Professor I.G. Bubnov in the technical bureau of the plant, and Bubnov received all the necessary instructions directly from me.

                      What instructions did Krylov give?
                      I have been suggested:

                      Save the established main dimensions and elements.

                      Draw up a theoretical drawing according to the model.

                      The hull structure should be carried out mainly along the longitudinal system, with grooves in the bottom plating along the stringers, overlapping the groove with such a wide bar that, at the highest design stress on the pitching, the bottom plating would not warp when it was working in compression (the Euler load was not exceeded). This calculation should be done on the basis of the theory developed by Professor Bubnov.

                      Although the usual docking will be done on keel blocks and on cages under the main transverse bulkheads, it is necessary to arrange a solid keel beam on which it would be possible to dock the ship only on keel blocks and which would transfer [143] perceived pressure through very solid middle bulkhead posts to the bulkheads.

                      In construction, three grades of steel should be used: a) ordinary mild shipbuilding steel with an ultimate resistance of about 42 kg / sq. mm and an extension of at least 20%; b) high resistance steel up to 63 kg/sq.mm and elongation of at least 18% and c) high resistance steel up to 72 kg/sq.mm and elongation of at least 16%.

                      To work out the exact resistance standards for the specified steel grades in agreement with the metallurgical plants and submit them to the Marine Technical Committee for approval as soon as possible.

                      For my part, I said that for ordinary steel with a variable load (rocking of the ship), the operating voltage should not exceed 11 kg / sq. mm, for high-resistance steel - 16 kg / sq. mm, for high-resistance steel when docked - 23 kg / sq. mm.

                      A lot of these instructions were given. In addition, I came to the plant every other day and followed the progress of the design work, gave instructions and explanations on the spot.

                      I asked Professor Bubnov to personally supervise the production of the most detailed calculations of the ship's strength and its support with the least expenditure of material and, as the calculations progress, submit them to me for review and approval.

                      This work was performed exemplarily under the guidance of Professor Bubnov. The calculations for the battleships "Petropavlovsk", "Sevastopol", "Gangut" and "Poltava" were then lithographed, and, presenting five huge volumes, are a true guide to the structural mechanics of the ship and the design of ships.

                      Have you ever read Krylov yourself? Or "they heard the ringing, but did not know where it was"?
                      1. 0
                        22 August 2022 22: 06
                        Was reading. A very good work. But this does not negate the fact that Krylov was the project manager and everything was done under his supervision. You yourself wrote about it.
      2. +1
        22 August 2022 19: 46
        Quote: Victor19
        N. Krylov was an outstanding mathematician and mechanic, engineer and inventor. To say that he is stupid or a deceiver - this speaks of your mental baggage.

        His reflections on the causes of the death of "Hood" lead to sad reflections...
    2. +1
      20 August 2022 16: 58
      1. The Germans quite practiced sabotage activities, so there is nothing surprising in this. And it’s easier to get on the ship just for specialists from the manufacturer.
      2. There is nothing more for the "bloody gebne" to do than to try to hang on someone the explosion of the royal, CHSH, battleship. How could they sew on something? What, sorry, impute? From if it was "Aurora" .....
      3-8. It would be interesting to read ... Do not prolong with Profts? I understand that Rabinovich can sing Caruso, but I would still like to hear Uncle Enrico ....
      And yet, yes, I'm not at all trying to prove the obligatoriness of the Germans or anything else. I just would like to see an objective picture ... If, from the sad memory of "Monsoon", in much closer times, there is still no clarity ....
      1. -1
        20 August 2022 19: 18
        3-8. It would be interesting to read ... Do not prolong with Profts?

        What - really on all 5 counts?
        thirdly: this battleship came after a long campaign and loaded coal for two days.

        do you really doubt that 2 days after a long trip they loaded coal? Unfortunately, I have not yet found the original source, although I read it literally today
        coal was loaded for two days - so there were no workers from the shore before the explosion. - in other months there were workers but there were no explosions.

        and what do you actually doubt - that the cabin was thrown off by an explosion, or do you doubt that it was under it that there were bow cellars of 130 ammunition? so look at the drawings of this battleship.
        fifthly - sailors slept in each 305-mm tower - and if a fire started in its cellar, then the sailors of the tower would feel it -

        What do you doubt? Is it really that if a fire broke out in the cellar under the tower in which the sailors sleep above and the sailors of this tower did not smell? by the way - scoundrel historians hide the important fact that probably several sailors of the first tower remained alive and were interrogated, but they denied the explosion in its cellars.
        sixthly: none of you knows the fact that in every cellar there was a temperature recording device - a thermograph that recorded the temperature in the cellar. so this device (2 devices) from the 305-mm bow cellar survived safely and showed a temperature of 60 and 90 C - that is, there was no fire in the bow cellar at all.

        It was written in the collection Citadel for 1996, I think in issue 3, but I don't have it, so get it yourself.
        1. -1
          20 August 2022 19: 50
          And thank you hi
        2. 0
          21 August 2022 10: 41
          There was no automatic thermograph. There was a thermometer, an officer with a pen and a magazine laughing
          And the temperature in the cellars did not rise to the values ​​​​you indicated. Krylov has it all.
          1. +2
            21 August 2022 11: 32
            Quote: rytik32
            There was no automatic thermograph.

            Where do you share? They have appeared EMNIP since the end of the 19th century, right?
        3. -1
          24 August 2022 14: 58
          Well, one of the articles says, in my opinion, quite convincingly, that there could be no spontaneous combustion .....
  15. +1
    21 August 2022 10: 20
    In fact, everything was very sad with the protection against detonation of ammunition.
    This is what the investigation into the death of "Empress Maria" showed. Screenshot from the work of A. N. Krylov, who headed the commission of investigation
    1. +1
      21 August 2022 10: 53
      Quote: rytik32
      In fact, everything was very sad with the protection against detonation of ammunition.

      In this case, we have personal initiatives and "improvements" of the design, especially not widespread everywhere (link to "Evstafiy")
      1. +1
        21 August 2022 10: 59
        Similar "improvements" were on the exploded British cruisers. And also to speed up the supply of shells. So let's leave the question of ubiquity open...
        1. +1
          21 August 2022 11: 35
          Quote: rytik32
          Similar "improvements" were on the exploded British cruisers. And also to speed up the supply of shells

          I won’t even ask how you see the manual feeding of 343-mm shells according to the method described on the Maria. And yes, what do British battlecruisers have to do with our ships?
          1. 0
            21 August 2022 12: 05
            By the beginning of WWI, the prevailing opinion was that the one who shoots first will win the naval duel. Accordingly, all measures were taken to speed up the supply of shells and charges. Up to the removal of armored doors and hatches ...
            Therefore, it is unlikely that such "improvements" took place only on the "Maria", if we know that such an idea was not only at the launch of the "Maria".

            For an analogy, we can recall the armored hatches opened in battle for feeding torpedoes on the "Peresvet" and "Oslyab" ... Open armored necks between the upper and lower coal pits ... All of them were opened not out of sloppiness, but for quite rational reasons .. .

            But back to our "Sevastopol". It turns out that in theory there was protection, but in practice everything was sad.
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. +1
              21 August 2022 12: 46
              Quote: rytik32
              But back to our "Sevastopol". It turns out that in theory there was protection, but in practice everything was sad.

              In principle, if everything was the same as on Mary, then you are probably right
            3. +2
              21 August 2022 13: 29
              Quote: rytik32
              But back to our "Sevastopol". It turns out that in theory there was protection, but in practice everything was sad.


              Dear Alexey.
              I don't think such a conclusion can be drawn. In our reasoning, we think in modern terms, but the reasoning in those days was different from ours. On the Internet, in the public domain, there are minutes of the meeting of the Royal Society of Naval Shipbuilders and the Royal Society of Artillery, if you have not come across these documents, try to find them. In them you can read about what views were at that time. I came across a discussion in the US Senate on the issue of artillery cellars, ship armor, weapons for 1908. It was very interesting for me to read them, in these discussions, naval experts explain to civilians what and how is done on ships, why and for what purposes, that is, "put everything on the shelves." One can see that their views and reasoning are very different from modern ones.
  16. +4
    21 August 2022 15: 30
    Let me give you a couple of illustrations for the article:
    Powder magazine "Catherine the Great" well, or "Free Russia":


    And this is the shell cellar of the destroyer Gromkiy:


    Well, directly 305mm shells of "Catherine the Great":

    And on this ship, the shell cellar was OVER the powder magazine.
  17. +4
    21 August 2022 17: 00
    But let's say an enemy shell pierced the 125-mm Sevastopol upper belt and the 75-mm barbet behind it and exploded, igniting the half-charges ready for loading on the upper chargers in the reloading compartment at the moment when the corresponding "claps" are open (it just so happened, that just at that moment one of the lower chargers was lowered into the cellars, for example). Even in this case, the chances of fire penetrating into the cellar, located a few meters below, are not too great. Suppose, however, that the burst of an enemy projectile dropped one of the ignited half-charges directly into the open "slam", and it fell straight onto the table, where other half-charges were waiting for loading into the lower charger. What then?

    Even in this case, the maximum possible is the ignition of several half-charges, and not in the cellar itself, but in the supply pipe of the tower. Even if, by some miracle, there are six semi-charges on the table, and they all light up, it is far from certain that the flame will be able to “reach out” to the ammunition storage racks.

    And why assume when there was a real case - a fire in the second BSh of the Marat LC LK on August 7, 1933, exactly during practical firing.
    The investigation found that after the second turret's right gun bolt was opened during a prolonged shot, the charge ignited. Then a chain reaction began:
    The flames traveled down the shaft of the upper charger and ignited the two half-charges in it. At the same time, the flames spread to the middle and left guns of the fighting compartment and began to break out of the embrasures of the tower. From the right upper charger through the supply window of the reloading compartment, which did not have a fire cover, the flame spread to two half-charges located on the right reloading table. Further, the flame engulfed the entire reloading compartment and ignited the additional 4 half-charges (on the tables) and two half-charges in the left upper charger of the left gun through the same reloading compartment feed windows, which also did not have fire covers.
    The total flame from the burning of the 10 mentioned semi-charges rushed up the shafts of all the guns and simultaneously down the shafts of the lower chargers to all the lower cellars, namely the upper charger, projectile and lower charger.
    © Galkevich I.E. Fire in the second tower of the battleship "Marat". Gangut. Sat. Art. SPb., 2010. Issue. 59.

    The worst option is a fire with a total of twelve half-charges with the penetration of fire into the cellars. Result? The shells and charges lasted until the cellar flooding system was triggered -
    combustion energy of 753 kg of pyroxylin powder was not enough to start a fire in the cellars. And after 15 minutes, both cellars and the turret compartment were flooded along the waterline.
    Moreover, even twice the worst case, given that the fire started during the absence of fire covers in the supply system: the covers of the old design were removed, and the new ones constantly failed.
    When considering the following report by L. M. Galler (No. 5 / A / 29ss, dated August 25, 1933) and the reports of the flagship gunner of the battleship brigade Fedorov and the commander of the BCH2 "Marat" Melnikov, it turns out that the fire covers mentioned in the act of the commission, which were absent on at the time of inspection, on the upper chargers and tables in the reloading compartment of the second tower, they were of an unsuccessful design, failed during operation and were not replaced with new ones.
    1. 0
      22 August 2022 07: 12
      Alexey, thank you very much! Somehow I missed this moment
  18. +6
    21 August 2022 22: 06
    Good day, Andrey!
    Thanks for the article, you raised a very interesting topic.
    A few questions immediately come to mind...
    1. But we didn’t have any experience in the REV, which would encourage the introduction of fire dampers! The towers did not explode and the ships did not die from this. The fire in the Fuji tower was not allowed to flare up by a broken hydraulic pipe, and this fire did not occur here. There is a suspicion that the explosion of the cellar from a hit shell did not destroy the Borodino, but it is not clear where they hit. Rather, the experience of the RYAV spoke of the need to increase the rate of fire and eliminate any obstacles in the way of supplying ammunition from the cellar. All the more respect is the foresight of our ancestors, who provided for the interruption of the fire covers on the upper chargers and tables in the reloading compartment of the ammunition supply chain from the cellars to the tower. What the Germans and the British thought of only during WWI,
    2. These lids, however, were treated rather negligently. This is confirmed by the fire in the second tower of the battleship "Marat" on August 7, 1933, in which 65 people died. The covers were removed as they were of "unsuccessful design". See the article by Igor Galkevich in "Gangut":
    https://zen.yandex.ru/media/id/5e7da90638906d44f052c041/pojar-vo-vtoroi-bashne-lineinogo-korablia-marat-62043a9b8667d266fb1ca262
    3. You are confusing explosion and detonation. They have different propagation speeds. Gunpowder does not detonate, but explodes. The explosion gives large fragments, and the detonation turns everything around almost into dust. The detonation of 45 tons of gunpowder in the bow cellar of "Maria" or "Marat" would have smashed the ships into atoms, and the detonation of shells would have been added to the detonation of gunpowder. However, it was just an explosion, when the pressure of powder gases destroyed the upper parts of the ships, and the shells were only scattered around. They were then raised intact.
    1. +2
      22 August 2022 07: 13
      hi Thanks for the link and comments!
    2. +1
      22 August 2022 11: 16
      Quote: Andrey Tameev
      2. These lids, however, were treated rather negligently. This is confirmed by the fire in the second tower of the battleship "Marat" on August 7, 1933, in which 65 people died. The covers were removed as they were of "unsuccessful design".

      In the printed version of the article about the lids, it was written that after installing the lids of a new design, they quickly began to fail and they had to be tied up almost so that they would not interfere with the flow.
      However, given the cause of the fire in the turret, it is highly possible that the lids were fixed in the open position as part of a competition between turrets for rate of fire.

      Although, not only we had such a struggle for loading speed. The Yankees on their LKs during Short Range Battle Practice, originally planned as a competition in the rate of fire, were forced to directively limit the interval between volleys - for fear of igniting charges in the breech during delivery.
    3. -1
      22 August 2022 12: 25
      3. You are confusing explosion and detonation. They have different propagation speeds. Gunpowder does not detonate, but explodes. The explosion gives large fragments, and the detonation turns everything around almost into dust.

      You are using incorrect terminology. if strictly scientifically, then no explosion exists at all - but in reality it should be called a gunpowder explosion DEFLAGRATION - that is, just very fast burning, and it doesn’t matter - in the open air in tens of seconds or in the gun chamber - in thousandths of a second - it’s still deflagration.
      but the explosion of a projectile is a detonation.
      but the trouble is that the entire population of the earth is so accustomed to calling any fast phenomena an explosion that it’s impossible to convince anyone - and the rupture of a steam boiler with water also has an explosion, and a round cast-iron bomb stuffed with black powder has an explosion. and the gas in the apartment - an explosion.
  19. -1
    22 August 2022 12: 56
    "Empress Maria" returned to the Sevastopol harbor at 23.55 on October XNUMXth, and the explosion occurred on October XNUMXth, the value of your "version" cannot be underestimated.

    It is difficult to guess: either Andrei from Ch is misinforming all readers, or he is telling the true truth. Because almost all sources claim that "Empress Maria" actually returned to Sevastopol 2 days later - as much as October 6 (old style), and immediately after night the next morning she had an explosion. while Andrei claims that the return took place on October 4
    Here is a quote:
    On October 6, “Maria” returned from the sea for the last time ... ”
    https://www.stoletie.ru/territoriya_istorii/tajna_gibeli_flagmana_202.htm
    And this, by the way, is the decisive fact of who could blow up this battleship. the fact is that if he actually returned on October 6 and there immediately began work on putting on a barrel and cooling down the boiler and various mechanisms, then on this previous day there could not have been any presence of maintenance workers. which means that Krylov’s vile version that supposedly the workers could blow up Maria is his complete lack of conscience.
  20. +1
    22 August 2022 13: 51
    Of course, if some German projectile managed to “pass” directly into the powder magazine, then the design of the turret compartments would no longer solve anything. But such a scenario is extremely doubtful, at least for the Invincible and Queen Mary, which were destroyed from relatively short distances, at which the shells still maintain a flat trajectory, so such a “penetration” looks unlikely.

    The German armor-piercing and their blasters hit very well and often worked as expected. It is very likely for them to go into the powder magazine.
  21. ban
    0
    23 August 2022 09: 05
    Andrey, welcome!
    Article +, at least there is something to read, otherwise recently most of the contents of VO are the Murzilka level
  22. 0
    23 August 2022 22: 13
    In order for everyone to draw their own conclusions, here I compiled the conclusions of the commission, which was headed by the famous shipbuilder A. Krylov
    On the death of the battleship "Empress Maria".
    The commission, comparing the testimony of the commander, officers and lower ranks about the circumstances of the death of the battleship "Empress Maria", came to the following conclusions.
    II. Turning to the consideration of possible causes of a fire in the crew chamber, the commission settled on the following three:
    1. spontaneous combustion of gunpowder,
    2. negligence in handling fire or gunpowder,
    3. evil intent.

    1. Spontaneous combustion of gunpowder seems unlikely, and its possibility almost disappears for the following reasons:
    a) The gunpowder was freshly made in 1914 and 1915, tape for combat charges and pasta for practical ones, containing diphenylamine as a reagent, which reveals the slightest beginning of decomposition of gunpowder by the spots appearing on the tapes. Meanwhile, in the charges handed over from the ship to the warehouses and laboratories at Sukharnaya Balka to replace damaged caps and to re-bandage the charges, such damage to gunpowder is not indicated.
    b) As far as is known, the manufacture of gunpowder and then charges from it is carried out very carefully, and all measures have been taken to exclude the possibility of even accidental use of a tape with gunpowder; So far, no cases of decomposition of gunpowder adopted for the fleet have been observed.
    c) The temperature in the cellars was very moderate all the time, reaching only once for several hours 36 ° when the keel beam steam was heated from blowing into it. The heating of the beam could not be more than 60–70 °, it happened in April 1916 and it could not have a harmful effect on gunpowder due to its short duration (1–1½ hours), and also because the charges were not directly adjacent to the beam.
    Thus, no circumstances have been found under which it is known that spontaneous combustion of gunpowder can occur.

    2. Carelessness in the handling of fire and indiscretion in the handling of gunpowder also appear to be unlikely causes of a fire.

    The kruyt chambers are ventilated, and so much ether and alcohol vapors do not accumulate in them so that an explosive mixture can form that can ignite from the flame of a candle or match, etc.
    Even with the complete absence of ventilation and the complete drying of the solvent, the amount of air in the crucible chamber significantly exceeds that at which an explosive mixture could form.
    Thus, if one enters the crucible chamber with a lit candle or light a hibernation, light a fire and leave some rag, rag or bunch of tow to burn, this will not cause the ignition of ether and alcohol vapors, even if their smell is felt.
    In order for the charge to ignite, it is necessary that the flame itself penetrate into the closed case and reach either the tapes or the igniter, or it is necessary that the igniter, consisting of checkers of black powder, completely crumble, penetrate in the form of pulp through a loosely wrapped lid, come into contact with the flame and , flashing, transferred combustion to the charge in the case.
    As can be seen, a combination of a number of accidents is necessary, each of which is unlikely in itself.
    The kruyt-chambers are always lit, orderlies must go there to measure the temperature,.......

    III. The Commission cannot fail to note on the battleship "Empress Maria" significant deviations from the requirements of the charter in relation to access to the storage chambers.

    In relation to the very device of the hook-chambers, there were a number of deviations, which made it possible to access the hook-chambers even without any keys, at any time.

    The hatches of the bomb cellars are equipped with lids, which must always be locked. Meanwhile, on the battleship Empress [231] Maria, these covers were not only not locked, but they were completely removed, under the pretext that, for the convenience of manual feeding, wooden tables with a hole were placed above the hatches through which caps were fed.
    Thus, the bomb cellars were in constant open communication with the hook chambers.
    In addition to the locked hatch from the tower itself, it was possible to penetrate into the bomb cellars.

    But besides this, manholes were made in the tower through which you can go to its lower pin. This pin is surrounded by a casing, which separates the pin from the hook chamber; in this casing there is a neck from the hook-chamber, closed by a door.
    On the battleship "Empress Maria" this door not only did not have a lock, but was completely removed in all towers, so that from the pin room there was an open passage to the hook chamber, and to the pin room there was an open passage from the tower itself, both through the combat and and through its working and reloading department.

    IV. On the battleship "Empress Maria", when it was anchored, a number of works were carried out, and the total number of craftsmen who were on the ship reached 150 people, divided into small batches from different factories.
    The check of the artisans who came to the ship and left it was organized in such a way that it did not give full confidence whether any of the artisans remained on the ship and whether anyone arrived on the ship arbitrarily under the guise of a workman, for a correct name check on the shore there were no artisans going to the ship and returning from the ship, the entire check was assigned mainly to the ship's staff.

    V. Having thus noted the lack of verification of the artisans, non-compliance with the requirements for access to the storage chambers, the commission considers it necessary to analyze the third assumption about the possible cause of the fire that led to the death of the ship, namely: [233] Malicious intent, - the probability of the assumption cannot be estimated by any precisely established circumstances. The Commission considers it only necessary to point out the relatively easy possibility of bringing malicious intent to execution with the organization of the service that took place on the sunken ship.
    a) The kruyt-chambers were not locked, because they always had access from the tower itself.
    b) The tower, together with the charging compartment, served as a living quarters for its servants, numbering about 90 people, therefore, the entrance and exit from the tower of anyone, especially in uniform, could not attract anyone's attention.
    c) In order to set fire to the charge so that it catches fire, for example, an hour or more after arson and so that this is completely invisible, no special devices are needed - the simplest, ordinary wick is enough. It is important that an intruder cannot enter the cruise chamber; after he has penetrated into it, bringing the intention into execution no longer presents any difficulties.
    d) The organization of the inspection of the artisans did not ensure the impossibility of an outside intruder entering the ship, especially through the barge standing at the side.
    Having penetrated the ship, the attacker had easy access to the crew chamber to bring his plan to fruition.
    VI. Comparing the relative probability of the three assumptions made about the causes of the fire, the commission finds that the possibility of malicious intent is not excluded, but its execution was facilitated by the significant deviations that took place on the ship from the requirements in relation to access to the storage chambers and the imperfection of checking the workers who were on the ship. .
    1. 0
      24 August 2022 21: 44
      In general, as I understand it, the commission under the tsar decided that this was most likely a sabotage. And considering that then they did not know what we now know - a sabotage group led by Verman - so it was.
  23. 0
    26 August 2022 13: 07
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

    Yes, there was such information. And it is extremely similar to the truth, especially in the light of tests of British gunpowder (roughly - they set fire to a bunch of gunpowder, it detonated). I wish I could remember where I read about it...


    There are a lot of nuances here.
    For example, if we take the catastrophic explosions of gunpowder from the French and Japanese in pre-WWII times, they considered the main reason that when new caps were produced, in order to save money, old gunpowder "refreshed" with ether was mixed with new gunpowder.
    And such a cocktail "suddenly" turned out to be prone to spontaneous detonation.
  24. 0
    26 September 2022 07: 41
    It should be recognized that the designers and builders of Russian battleships were at their best, and all the shortcomings of the ships are the result of errors in the terms of reference.
    Paradoxical as it may seem, the catastrophe of Marat serves as proof. It is clear that in deep water the steamer would have sunk, but in a similar situation, the much larger and more modern Arizona was simply gutted and turned inside out. Marat, however, retained the structural integrity of the hull, was raised and used as a training ship for a long time.
    Only that part of the crew that was at the epicenter of the explosion and on the torn off and sunken superstructure died. Compare with Arizona, where more than 90% of the crew on board died, and nothing remained of 900 people at all.
    If the admirals who formulate the TOR could go a little further than the combat experience of the last war, Sevastopol could turn out to be the best 12 '' battleships in history. There were resources, the same transition to liquid fuel, in the use of which in civil shipbuilding Russia was ahead of the rest of the world.