Tornado-G: alternative guide package design

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This is not a real prototype, but a computer montage of researchers from the Military Logistics Academy named after General A.V. Khrulev. Explanations in the text. Source: Military Review magazine


"Grad" is the head of everything


The Penza branch of the Military Academy of Logistics named after General A.V. Khrulev (formerly the Penza Artillery Engineering Institute) publishes the specialized magazine "Military Review", which is published mainly by employees of the educational institution. In addition to fairly routine topics, for example, "Adaptation of cadets to the specifics of military engineering education" or "Game technologies in the educational process of the military", interesting topics can be found in the materials. For the sake of peace of mind, we note that the "Military Review" is in the public domain, it does not have a mark "secret" and even "for official use".



Particular attention is drawn to the results of the work of three departments at once - automated control systems and software; general professional disciplines and the Department of Gunpowder and Explosives, dedicated to optimizing the design of the Tornado-G MLRS guide package. What is really wrong with her? To begin with, let's deal with the combat vehicle of the artillery soldiers.

Tornado-G is a modernization of the BM-21 Grad system, which entered service 62 years ago. For its time, it was a highly effective combat unit, especially as part of a triumvirate with Hurricane and Tornado. A 40-barrel launcher with a caliber of 122 mm made it possible to work over areas at a distance of 5 to 21 km. Accuracy leaves much to be desired: in range - up to 160 meters, lateral deviation - up to 100 meters.




Above is the classic Grad, below is its modernized version of the Tornado-G. Pay attention to the protective screen on the Tornado-G launch guide package. Its functions are to protect the controls from the gas jet and increase the rigidity of the structure. A photo: Vitaly kuzmin

In order for the rocket to fit at least into these standards, the engineers provided several solutions.

The first is stabilization on the trajectory due to rotation at a speed of several tens of revolutions per second. The feather stabilizer in the tail of the missile of the BM-21 Grad complex is set at an angle of 1 degree to the axis of the projectile.

The second solution that improves the accuracy of fire is the brake rings on the rocket head, which are installed before launch. Small ballistic ring - for firing at a distance of more than 12 km, large - at shorter distances. In fairness, it should be noted that it would be very naive to expect from Grad (Tornado) accurate firing of unguided missiles at such distances. In the end, a few gusts of wind on the flight path, and the rocket can finally go off course.

Precision accuracy can only be achieved by actively correcting the rocket in flight. But this does not mean that multiple launch rocket systems firing unguided projectiles should not be improved.

The 2B17M Tornado-G machine, in addition to an improved guidance system, has a visually easily distinguishable feature - a protective screen on the guide package. This node is necessary to protect the elements of the controls from the gas jet of the launching rocket. But the protective screen can be harmful due to the ability to transfer shock loads from the gas jet of the rocket to the combat vehicle. At the same time, neither the Tornado-G nor the Grad have retractable supports, which seriously destabilizes the vehicle during salvo fire. The Urals can only turn off the suspension, which does not fully ensure the rigidity of the structure.

According to the authors of the research from the Academy named after General A.V. Khrulev, after the launch of one rocket, the wheels of the Ural carrier vehicle settle by 15–17 mm. Naturally, the truck begins to sway even on a locked suspension. And what will happen when the last fortieth shell comes out of the guide? That is why we so rarely see salvo fire from all the MLRS barrels - by the end of the firing, the vehicle very conditionally sends the ammunition to its destination. Scientifically, this is called the gas-dynamic effect on the package of launch guides. In a good way, it would be leveled by retractable supports, but this is both extra weight and a decrease in the tactical mobility of the MLRS.

The solution seems to be launching rockets with a large interval between them in order to allow the platform to calm down. But this seriously reduces the effectiveness of an artillery raid on a target, when the shells fall on the target almost simultaneously, significantly increasing the impact of the shock wave. This, by the way, is well remembered by the Nazis - the legendary "Katyushas" released all their ammunition in a few seconds and, if they hit, they made a real hell on the enemy's positions. Just due to the repeated imposition of shock waves on each other.

New design "Tornado-G"


The new protective screen, located on the front section of the Tornado-G guide package, naturally takes on the entire force of the gas-dynamic jet of outgoing missiles. Mathematical calculations of the force and the duration of the impact of the jet showed that the maximum force effect is observed 0,14 seconds after the launch of the projectile. During this time, the torch of the rocket engine manages to move about one meter from the official cut of the launcher.

The sequence of firing is also important - rockets coming out of the central rails rock the car the most. Rockets from the "periphery" of the package send part of their gases past the protective screen. Interestingly, the classic "Grad", devoid of a screen, had another problem that reduces the accuracy of fire - the low rigidity of the entire structure. During the operation of the MLRS, the guides make whip-like movements, transmit an oscillatory impulse to the installation, and thereby further reduce accuracy. The protective screen "Tornado-G" was also supposed to increase the rigidity of the package, but it became only a striker for the gas jet of the rocket. One problem solved, another came.




"Tornado-G" after photoshop. Source: Military Review magazine

The authors from the Penza branch of the Academy of Logistics see a solution to this situation in the reconfiguration of the guide package itself. You just need to give the front cut an oblique shape, in the manner of a car windshield. The article even provides a computer-edited image of the possible appearance of the new Tornado-G - the slope is approximately 15 degrees. The gas jet of the launching rocket will be redirected upward, reducing the load on the guide package. The article describes this phenomenon as follows:

“It can be assumed that the forced decomposition of the impact force of the projectile jet on the screen of the launch guide package into two components will lead to a change in the oscillatory process of both the artillery unit and the entire combat vehicle as a whole when firing in one salvo. Considering that the value of the technical dispersion of rocket projectiles is determined by the level of initial disturbances formed at the start, communicated to the projectile by launcher oscillations, the issue of synthesizing new design solutions for the launch guide package is certainly relevant and requires additional research.

According to the calculations of the authors of the idea, the impact force of the jet on the guide package will decrease by about 20%.

At the moment, nothing is known about the prospects for such a decision. There is hope that the non-trivial and low-cost idea is implemented in metal and is being tested accordingly. Still, an increase, albeit not so significant, in the accuracy of domestic MLRS is an important bonus for the army. With mass use, as in a special operation in Ukraine, this can turn into a significant advantage.

Based on:
G. B. Belonogov, M. Yu. Komarov "A variant of the design of a package of launch guides for a multiple launch rocket system in order to reduce the inertial characteristics of a combat vehicle." Magazine "Military Review", 2021, No. 2
M. N. Krasnov, Yu. A. Dyachkov, G. B. Belonogov “Assessment of the gas-dynamic impact of a rocket jet on a package of launch guides for a multiple launch rocket system.” Magazine "Military Review", 2021, No. 2
S. F. Podshivalov, O. A. Vdovikina, I. I. Privalov, D. P. Duganov. "Improving the design efficiency of the multiple launch rocket system guide package". Magazine "Military Review", 2021, No. 2
84 comments
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  1. -6
    11 August 2022 16: 10
    What a century, we are finishing our great-grandfather unguided rockets again. Where only for them areal accumulations of targets.
    At the end of the twentieth century, it was announced that one or two missiles in a salvo of systems of this class could carry communication and illumination equipment for the rest, combat missiles.
    1. +4
      11 August 2022 16: 23
      Well, it depends on what kind of wars.
      1. 0
        11 August 2022 16: 34
        A line of trenches, two-level trenches with a concrete bottom.
        Volley, beautiful, past. So from March to August, and the whole field is plowed.
        Out of forty 1, 2, 3 repeaters in the conditions of countering electronic warfare, 4, 5 slowed down and corrected their hits. The effectiveness of the remaining 35 missiles is equal to a thousand or more "normal" missiles.
        Everyone understood this.
        A quarter of a century has passed.
        An under-prototype has already been built.
        Testing will continue.
        1. -3
          11 August 2022 23: 30
          While this projectile will carry out "additional reconnaissance", the position of the MLRS will be opened by the launch of the same projectile and a retaliatory strike will be struck. The idea is dead from the start.
          1. AUL
            +1
            12 August 2022 08: 18
            And who will prevent this scout from being released not from the location of the battery, but from the side, and then quickly, quickly dumped from there?
            1. +3
              12 August 2022 08: 58
              Quote from AUL
              who will prevent the release of this scout not from the location of the battery

              hmm, 6 months is the CBO, and we are discussing "pink bubbles", in "completely serious"
            2. +5
              12 August 2022 09: 00
              Then this scout will be an ordinary UAV and there is nothing to fence in the garden.
              1. +1
                12 August 2022 14: 24
                Such drones should be made in the format of a cheap disposable glider. The launch range of the RS will not give the motorized drone time for reconnaissance and return. And a glider launched at an altitude of 2 km can stay in the air for more than an hour, and all this time it will conduct reconnaissance, and if its flight controller is programmed to search for updrafts, it will be able to fly for several hours in favorable conditions.
                1. +1
                  12 August 2022 17: 19
                  Passive subsonic glider with the ability to stay above the target for several seconds to be overtaken by other missiles, with a cheaper target illumination device.
        2. +6
          12 August 2022 11: 05
          Quote: Andriuha077
          A line of trenches, two-level trenches with a concrete bottom.
          Volley, beautiful, past. So from March to August, and the whole field is plowed.

          In our sector, the enemy stubbornly resists, ammunition is brought to him, his artillery and MLRS are working. Yesterday-today, the "Grady" of the Armed Forces of Ukraine worked out in the village of Donetsk and at the Sifonnaya station, occupied by ours. On Sifonnaya, these arrivals of "Grads" had about the same effect as the endless volleys of our MLRS on the enemy's fortifications. There was a fire in one place, the fire was extinguished. Probably, the command from our side, having received a report that the exact coverage of the VP by "Grads" did not particularly affect the combat capability of our personnel, who were in shelters captured from the Armed Forces of Ukraine, should draw some conclusions that the MLRS with conventional warheads , probably not very effective against well-prepared well-fortified strongholds with a developed system of full-profile trenches and deep shelters. This is not the camp in Zelenopolye in the summer of 2014, where people and equipment were tightly packed without much protection in open areas. Here - COMPLETE FORTIFICATIONS. And there are already, excuse me, BM-21 installations that fired 500-600 missiles at a given area of ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXbenemy fortifications (this is from one vehicle! Only from one vehicle !!!), but at the headquarters everyone is perplexed "Why don't they surrender? Where is victory?" Well, they don't give up, probably because they're sick of clowns being captured to give up. They sit in good deep dugouts and neigh as you gently scratch them with "Grads", which, in principle, are not suitable for combating long-term fortifications.
          © Murz
        3. +1
          12 August 2022 11: 56
          It’s still easier to take the OTP “Luna” into the head, cramming the Lancets into the head, opening over the target and forward with the song ... similarly for the City of Hurricane Tornado ... only UAVs should be a single swarm ..
          1. 0
            21 October 2022 09: 40
            Kek, why did Iskander not please? laughing
    2. -1
      13 August 2022 00: 52
      the year 2022, and we just thought about how to stabilize the launcher without stops in the ground, so that the projectile with equipment or, for example, with supplies, we won’t see it for another ten years, probably.
      1. +1
        13 August 2022 13: 00
        Most likely, after the Caucasus, no one shot with a full package, so there were no questions
  2. 0
    11 August 2022 16: 12
    That's interesting.
    And if you install "tracking drives" of guidance and automation that would hold / return the package to its original position (not relative to the machine, but relative to the Earth)? And would not allow the launch of the next PC until the error decreases to an acceptable
    1. +15
      11 August 2022 16: 25
      retractable supports are easier to farm than to stabilize several tons. Yes, and reliability (combat readiness) with stabilization will be worse.
      1. +4
        11 August 2022 17: 41
        Quote: maksbazhin
        retractable supports are easier to farm than to stabilize several tons. Yes, and reliability (combat readiness) with stabilization will be worse.

        there is a mechanism for turning off the suspension, but usually it is not used because of the long fuss with it. So that's what the spread is.
        1. +1
          11 August 2022 18: 24
          I tried to figure out the design, but I didn’t understand what to mess around with for a long time? Or is it manually activated there?
          1. +3
            11 August 2022 18: 42
            Quote: igor_sabadah
            I tried to figure out the design, but I didn’t understand what to mess around with for a long time? Or is it manually activated there?

            yes, manually
            1. +1
              21 August 2022 11: 53
              Well, in the best traditions of the SA, we create difficulties and then heroically overcome them. Religion does not allow hydraulics or pneumatics to use?
      2. +8
        11 August 2022 18: 44
        Quote: maksbazhin
        retractable supports are easier to hook up

        I never understood why they are not on the BM Grad. After all, with the naked eye you can see how the car sways when firing. Supports can be made quickly installed and even more quickly removed.
        1. +6
          11 August 2022 21: 29
          What we see even on "collective farm" pickups with handicraft installed "MLRS" from aviation NURS. Simple to implement - effective to use. But...
          1. 0
            21 October 2022 09: 43
            without "but", the distance is completely different, respectively, there just "swinging" is useful - it allows you to make small rockets fly apart. The engine works for them for about a second, if that.
        2. +4
          12 August 2022 10: 57
          Quote: DenVB
          I never understood why they are not on the BM Grad. After all, with the naked eye you can see how the car sways when firing.

          Because the supports are additional weight and clotting time. Plus the traditional considerations of the army. Install hydraulics? Well, how will they refuse ... yes, no, they will definitely refuse - with our personnel and conditions, this will work only for piece machines OM and BM. Put manual screw? So while they are being removed, a package will fly to the fire from the other side.
          Well, then everyone got used to it - once it works, then there is nothing to climb. And the supports are already different, and the reliability is higher, but inertia is a terrible thing.
          1. +3
            12 August 2022 11: 21
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Because supports are extra weight

            Fifty kilograms for each can be met.

            Quote: Alexey RA
            Install hydraulics?

            Почему нет?

            Quote: Alexey RA
            Well, how will he refuse ... but no, he will definitely refuse - with our personnel

            Conventional hydraulic jack. Sold at any auto shop. Lies in the trunk of every second.

            Quote: Alexey RA
            So while they are being removed, a package will fly to the fire from the other side.

            The pressure is released almost instantly.

            Quote: Alexey RA
            Put manual screw?

            Why does it have to be screwed? It can be like a hi-jack, if hydraulics are so scary. You can even come up with a mechanism for quick load shedding. He pulled the handle - the car just "fell", after which the support quickly turns, fastens to the bumper, and you can go. The whole procedure will take about twenty seconds on both sides.

            In general, there is absolutely nothing complicated. I can even do this in the garage.
            1. +3
              12 August 2022 11: 48
              So I wrote about the time of the creation of the BM-21. So...
              Quote: Alexey RA
              Well, then everyone got used to it - once it works, then there is nothing to climb. And the supports are already different, and the reliability is higher, but inertia is a terrible thing.
          2. 0
            21 October 2022 12: 04
            I wrote an answer here with a description of the simplest support design that could be deployed very quickly, but the forum was switched off as usual and, in general, nothing was left after the update.... sad
      3. 0
        12 August 2022 13: 45
        Obviously, it's easier.
        You can stabilize it by damping (extinguishing) vibrations, although even in this case the system (hydraulics seem to be) is not simple.
        And the rate of fire will definitely suffer.
    2. +1
      11 August 2022 22: 35
      The idea is good. Active damping is called. You need a gyroscope. MEMS are not accurate enough.
    3. +2
      12 August 2022 12: 55
      Quote: VicktorVR
      if you install "tracking drives" of guidance and automation that would hold / return the package to its original position (not relative to the machine, but relative to the Earth)?


      M-yes! Only where to do it. The industry has been destroyed by the enemy. And the enemies have not yet been shot. Moreover, they have citizenship abroad, foreign accounts, palaces and yachts, climbed up and harm. A huge field of activity for SMERSH
  3. The comment was deleted.
  4. +12
    11 August 2022 16: 20
    In the seventh paragraph "Claim accuracy" there is apparently a typo, according to the context "precision accuracy" should be.
    1. +9
      11 August 2022 16: 56
      The author has a claim to precision accuracy.
  5. 0
    11 August 2022 16: 34
    A rocket needs to be made at least a little smart! But not to invent all sorts of garbage.
    1. +3
      11 August 2022 17: 01
      That's how they did it.


      Deliveries to the troops of the latest missiles for multiple launch rocket systems "Tornado-G" have begun. They not only reach a given area with particular accuracy, but also hit an object with detachable warheads. The latter on a stabilizing parachute fall on the target almost vertically, so it is difficult to defend against them. Such ammunition easily destroys armored vehicles, manpower and even field fortifications, experts noted. These missiles are two-stage, they can strike targets from different directions and at different angles.


      missiles have a detachable warhead, which makes it impossible to intercept them with modern air defense systems. The ammunition allows you to hit targets even in shelters and behind the reverse slopes of heights - this is beyond the power of ordinary Grads.


      https://iz.ru/1067114/anton-lavrov-roman-kretcul/dobit-zalpom-v-voiska-postupili-novye-rakety-dlia-tornado-g
  6. +6
    11 August 2022 16: 37
    The authors from the Penza branch of the Academy of Logistics see a solution to this situation in the reconfiguration of the guide package itself.

    And what do they have to do with the developers of missile weapons?
    And then, like the artists: "I see it that way" - and then they mold anything.

    All these "design delights" with slopes will lead to the inconvenience of loading (with handles over 60 kg together). And the rebound of the jet stream up will lead to a change in the direction of the rocket down. It is still unknown what force will act on the break of the rotary mechanism, with such a lever of long guides.
    1. +4
      11 August 2022 17: 55
      According to the mind, it is high time to make a system of semi-automatic loading of the Grad-type MLRS.
      In the 90s, the armies offered the 50-barrel Prima.

      Alas, it didn't work out then.
      But the main thing is different. The existence of this model directly says that the weight and size resource of the platform has not been exhausted and allows you to install a semi-automatic tray (per row) from the top of the 40-barrel Grad package to simplify loading the machine.
      In this case, the slope of the package will not be of fundamental importance.
      However, I have a suspicion that on the basis of KAMAZ it is possible to equip a system for reloading and transporting an additional package of missiles, behind the cockpit, like the Belarusian Belgrade.
      Here I can be wrong.
      1. -1
        31 October 2022 16: 48
        IMHO, the HIMARS device is more interesting: the launcher and the rocket pack are not one device. The launcher can independently change packages at any point, without the need to return to the conditional base where charging is performed (by hand or with the help of some kind of automation). Packages are only disposable, which after shooting are discarded and forgotten forever. This will make it possible to separate the logistics of the actual combat launches and supplies (the launcher will have a certain route, at the points of which packages with ammunition will be left in advance)
    2. +3
      11 August 2022 19: 19
      Quote: Genry
      And the rebound of the jet stream up will lead to a change in the direction of the rocket down. It is still unknown what force will act on the break of the rotary mechanism, with such a lever of long guides.
      I'm not sure about the rocket, but the package will begin to nod down under the pressure of gases for sure! Recall the muzzle of the Suomi PP.
      1. +3
        11 August 2022 21: 23
        Case from youth. A neighbor cut off their 16-gauge gortzontalka. One of the trunks was torn, so he shortened it. Out of stupidity and curvature, he cut with an inclination. Degrees 10 or even 15 relative to the axis of the trunk. At the time of the shot, the sawn-off shotgun kicked like a good horse. The trunks went down. Rockets have a huge amount of powder gases. I think the package will tilt and the aft part of the rocket will receive a transverse momentum from the bottom up.
  7. -8
    11 August 2022 16: 48
    So it's certainly interesting.
    But I think the time of unguided projectiles is gone forever. Like Tukhachevsky's tank avalanches.

    I have seen enough of the fields plowed with funnels that the MO does not hesitate to sign because of its stupidity
    "artillery firing at enemy positions"
    Only there are no positions there. Clearly plowed field.
    Who is this nonsense intended for?
    Shoot yourself in the ass.
    Well, this is about sore.
    Already throws up from non-existent wins of the RF Ministry of Defense.

    As for bm13
    "The Katyushas released their entire ammunition load in a few seconds and, if they hit, they made a real hell on the enemy's positions."

    IMHO. And only IMHO. The role of bm13 is greatly overestimated.
    I understand: the weapon of victory and all that.
    Only now the real effect of the use of bm13 took place under a number of conditions.
    Covering a concentration of unarmored vehicles or a concentration of troops.
    Lack of the most primitive shelters
    Which was not easy to achieve due to the short range and low accuracy of the then systems.
    Otherwise, the effect was psychological at best.
    The medium tank withstood a direct hit without losing combat capability, there is a lot of evidence from both sides.

    Of course, there were undoubtedly extremely successful applications. But this is a matter of luck, given the state of situational intelligence of those years.

    Some of the monsters of Soviet military literature have a story "Katyusha". It is semi-artistic (as it were) and rather tragic.

    Hang out packages, don't hang out. It's all outdated. They don't shoot like that anymore. Expensive and stupid.
    1. +2
      11 August 2022 19: 45
      Knowing the area of ​​​​concentration of the second echelon, it is likely that the Katyusha attack on them was more than effective. And they didn’t particularly hammer the first line, as far as I remember. They didn't really take trenches. It's like in cannon artillery. Need and guns and howitzers and mortars. And so that one universal tool for everything, so it still does not exist.
      1. -3
        11 August 2022 22: 00
        Yeah, "knowing the area."
        Here they stand in rows and columns like during the Napoleonic wars. Infantry and trucks. And you definitely know about it. And you have time to fit the car to the launch site. And of course you manage to get in!
        Blood! Guts! Dismemberment!

        Are there too many coincidences? Don't you think?

        You should forget about unmanaged blanks.
        Oddly enough, precision-guided munitions will cost less for a circle. And most importantly, it is more efficient, and in terms of its own losses, incl.

        The fact that the electronic industry is ruined in the Russian Federation and it itself is unable to produce chips is another matter.
        Do you know that our cruise missiles use, for example, TeI and SMC controllers?
        Well, for example.

        Of course. Well, why do we need precision-guided munitions!
        Only oldschool! Only hardcore!
    2. -3
      11 August 2022 21: 35
      If you dig deeper than the Katyusha, it turns out that the Germans captured the first samples at the very beginning of the Second World War. Captured, but not copied - fools? At the same time, remaining No. 1 in the segment of WWII missiles. It was believed that their spin-stabilized missiles were more accurate. They did not see the obvious advantages of the Katyushas.

      I also think that shooting at squares is the lot of the wars of the twentieth century.
      1. -6
        11 August 2022 22: 20
        The Germans did better. Multi-barreled "mortar" aka "vanyusha".
        But they did not have access to American gunpowder, so the range suffered
        And so the hail is the very "vanyusha".
        1. +2
          12 August 2022 01: 43
          In the 41st, we still did not have American gunpowder.
          1. -3
            12 August 2022 03: 51
            Deliveries from the USA began in the fall of 41. Not yet an official lend-lease, but in fact it was under the guise of a loan.
            And what? did you fight a lot of bm13 at 41?
    3. +3
      11 August 2022 22: 55
      And how do you want to shoot at flat targets? How many singles? Is there enough time to scout all single targets? Do you notice everyone? And how will you shoot, one by one? Will you have time? And if this is a mass of moving targets? And you were informed of the entire line of the center of the attacking battalion? What target coordinates will you enter, where will you get them from. Also, the center of this target moves 100 m per minute? Here, a protective fire is needed, not the WTO. You hesitate and look and you will have to fight back with direct fire laughing
      1. -2
        12 August 2022 03: 45
        And there will be no "area targets" in a modern war, but they didn’t exist before (do not confuse shelling in an area)
        Many singles are exactly the same as one single. Ideally, ammunition should be able to distribute targets within a swarm.
        Exploration and additional exploration is ongoing.
        The question is dumb.
        Already answered.
        Time will be if the reaction time is minimal.
        Already answered.
        I do not need to report, you will report to the commander in 41.

        I already understood that you basically do not understand how it generally works.
        I especially liked "Enter coordinates" :)
        On a paper map, draw rhombuses from the officer's ruler, which indicates the area where the hail battery is covered. Yeah.

        I do not consider it necessary to engage in your education.
        Take care of yourself.
        1. +1
          12 August 2022 23: 13
          Well, it’s lucky that you won’t be engaged in my education. Then explain to readers. Where did the targets of the type disappear - a stronghold, attacking infantry (up to a company), lying infantry, artillery ops, an advancing column, an area where a tank company is concentrated (all of this is observed, there is also in the NWO. Or is it "outdated"?). So, reveal all the targets and fire as single WTOs? Well, there is a grove, inside 10 armored vehicles. See among the trees under the masksets? You have 15 minutes and 1/4 BC on this goal in the list of goals. Do not fire - climb on your infantry. Who will be waiting for you to squat? It is on the map, to remove the direction, the distance with an accuracy of 50 m is a matter of seconds, the accuracy is enough for the eyes. What does the drone have to do with it, for ponti? In 30 seconds, 300 shells will fly there, evenly distributed along the front and in depth, it won’t seem enough. The target in optics is better visible, you don’t have to look at it from above, especially since the drone has a fatal flaw - monocular vision.

          Or for example - someone else's infantry counterattacks. How can a drone help you? Rely on the good old OF, and the data on the NZO should be ready with you in the evening. Even on an electronic tablet, even on a paper map, you still won’t sleep much before the battle, there are a lot of things to do at night at the ADN command post. You won’t be able to sleep in, pick up the drone in the morning and then click the mouse with one finger, as some comrades dreamed about.
  8. Owl
    +4
    11 August 2022 16: 51
    The solution used for the overhaul of the system and increasing the accuracy of shooting is worthy. And if you change the order of missiles launched from the "packet", from the least deflecting guides, to the most "rocking" the system, then it's generally wonderful. As for those who want to "make each missile (projectile) controllable", then let them calculate the cost of a salvo at an area target (platoon opnik or company stronghold) with NURs and guided missiles, let them think about how they will direct the missiles: target illumination, pre-set coordinates or seeker And how much will it all cost.
    1. +7
      11 August 2022 17: 21
      Quote: Eagle Owl
      As for those who want to "make each missile (projectile) controllable", then let them calculate the cost of a salvo at an area target (platoon opnik or company stronghold) with NURs and guided missiles, let them think about how they will direct the missiles: target illumination, pre-set coordinates or seeker And how much will it all cost.

      And who will count the repeated transshipment of these missiles by hand, delivery, storage, maintenance, preparation of fuses. A lot of people are involved, with large volumes of labor hours and a final considerable amount for all these types of work (do not say that everyone does it for free).

      Artillery is a huge job and it is necessary to minimize misses and more automate all processes from loading to firing.
      1. +1
        11 August 2022 23: 08
        It is necessary to minimize not misses, but losses. You need to automate in moderation. For the sake of combat stability.
      2. Owl
        +3
        12 August 2022 07: 52
        Ammunition must be of different types, with different types of warheads, guided and unguided. The used ammunition is chosen by the commander, depending on the type and type of the target being hit: a buried command post - a penetrating warhead on the UR, a company stronghold - a volley of NURs.
    2. +3
      11 August 2022 19: 41
      presented an interesting idea. A type of system with artificial intelligence parrying the buildup by successively launching missiles from certain pipes. I think that even today it is possible to write such a program and hang sensors. The only question is whether it makes sense. But overall it's interesting
      1. +1
        11 August 2022 23: 13
        There is a sense, any modern car has this. Active damping. And this is not AI, but simply an automatic control system.
    3. 0
      11 August 2022 23: 03
      And how long will it take - to reconnoiter all the targets in the stronghold, determine the coordinates, they will fire ... 40 NURS-and 20 seconds. Shoot 40 correctables - half a day.
  9. +1
    11 August 2022 17: 06
    As soon as I counted up to Photoshop, I moved on to the comments. If you teach future engineers and designers this way, nothing good will come of it. To add a squiggle, which (quite possibly) will improve the characteristics of the product, is not bad, but there is also a calculation of the production process, taking into account the existing machine base. Forming a pipe with a guide groove on a punch, and then turning it on a lathe of the 30s of the last century is one labor and cost price. The use of a three (five) coordinate machine to give the pipe a beautiful cut is another. The first thing you need to teach photoshoppers in uniform is the calculation of the production data sheet. The second is the determination of the required resources for production. Then a comparison of production efficiency with the achieved effect of improving the characteristics of the product. If a new prodigy costs the same as three conventional products, and in terms of application it can withstand only three volleys more ...
    1. +3
      11 August 2022 18: 40
      Quote: mongol9999
      Form a pipe with a guide groove on the punch,

      What grooves? There are no grooves there.

      Quote: mongol9999
      The use of a three (five) coordinate machine to give the pipe a beautiful cut is another.

      Five-axis cutting machine?

      Quote: mongol9999
      The first thing you need to teach photoshoppers in uniform is the calculation of the production data sheet.

      The designer and the technologist are two different specialties.
    2. +2
      11 August 2022 23: 16
      Pipes can be cut in the old way, straight. Just shift in height. And weld an inclined front plate.
  10. -6
    11 August 2022 17: 09
    Unguided missiles are all in the past.
    We had a couple more years, but we had rockets for MLRS with satellite guidance, it was necessary to do mass production.
    Not only would they reduce the cost of the rocket (by mass production), but also increase the efficiency many times over.
    It’s cool, of course, to declare that 1 GRAD can plow an entire football field, but this is not effective
    The use of unguided missiles has completely outlived the century. For example, it makes no sense to install these installations with NARs on helicopters.
    Efficiency is shown by Krasnopol - that is, guided projectiles.
    1. +3
      11 August 2022 23: 20
      "To plow the whole field" is very effective. And in 90% of cases it's the only one possible. The conditions for the application of the WTO are not a particular case.
    2. 0
      12 August 2022 07: 56
      There will be no satellites in a full-fledged war with NATO, at least they will definitely be "turned off" for us, not so many of them.
  11. -1
    11 August 2022 17: 36
    Pictures are pictures, but in fact, zilch.
  12. +4
    11 August 2022 17: 55
    I will state my opinion. That NARs, that artillery from closed positions are weapons for use in areas. Pointwise - only guided missiles and shells. It makes sense, respectively, for point targets. Hitting each fighter with guided projectiles - probably, it makes no sense (now). And there are big questions about cost and especially target designation.
    But I can’t imagine how to suppress, say, a fortified line of defense of a battalion with pinpoint weapons. Probably shrapnel or ODS (especially) would work better. Maybe in the future every drone will chase every fighter, but it seems to me that drone fights will be in full swing there.
    1. +2
      11 August 2022 19: 38
      here I am about it below. MLRS have other goals than a surgically accurate strike on a point target. There are already other systems for this, without 40 guides))
  13. 0
    11 August 2022 19: 07
    Design in the production of military equipment is not the last thing. If they had made a turret on the BTR-60/70/80 not in the form of a truncated cone, but in the form of an oblique cylinder, like this package of guides, and installed a hatch, the capabilities of the machine would have increased.
  14. +1
    11 August 2022 19: 16
    Quote: VicktorVR
    That's interesting.
    And if you install "tracking drives" of guidance and automation that would hold / return the package to its original position (not relative to the machine, but relative to the Earth)? And would not allow the launch of the next PC until the error decreases to an acceptable

    And why not carry packages with loaded shells, and install them on the "whatnots" pre-installed in front, after shooting, simply left until a better time, when the response is no longer terrible? Rigid structures standing on the ground will not sway. They launched the M16 (Luka Mudischa) during the Second World War in boxes, right from the ground!
  15. 0
    11 August 2022 19: 23
    yes, but wouldn't such a screen angle lead to an increase in chassis sag? do you need a reverse angle? Or maybe combined?
  16. +7
    11 August 2022 19: 35
    None of the supporters of making corrected missiles for 122mm MLRS are embarrassed that its task is to hit the squares. And it is estimated precisely by the size of the covered area. And 40 missiles from the package should not, as it were, be pushed into one dugout, but to destroy manpower in an area of ​​a certain number of hectares. Well, the equipment has accumulated at the pontoon crossing, we need to hit as many vehicles as possible, and not cover any 4 infantry fighting vehicles with an accurate accurate blow. Therefore, there is MLRS, there is OTR, there is cannon artillery (which also has guns and howitzers and mortars and various calibers). This buildup in Soviet times did not at all interfere with covering hectares of territories with hail, and evenly it worked out as it should. And if you are worried about the wind and so on, it’s better to put a ballistic computer on cars and other equipment with topographic location, etc., increase the accuracy of the MLRS in this way. Cut those 100-160 meters down to 50-80 meters and for 40 barrels in one setup, that's more than enough. IMHO.
    1. +1
      11 August 2022 20: 25
      Well, why such trifles ... the main thing is that the child prodigy is cooler so that the chest can be wheeled. laughing
    2. IVZ
      +3
      11 August 2022 20: 37
      Completely agree with you. For each target "its own caliber". To improve accuracy at long firing distances, you can turn off the vehicle's suspension - a common technique. If necessary, it is possible to provide for the possibility of equipping ammunition with trajectory correction units with semi-active laser seeker following the example of aviation NARs, but the main task - the destruction of area targets is most effectively (and cheaper) solved by MLRS.
    3. +4
      11 August 2022 22: 11
      And the goal for the MLRS is to hit the enemy who has taken refuge in a fishing line, or a forest belt. When you know that he went there, but you can’t smoke him out. What now has to be in NWO.
  17. -2
    12 August 2022 11: 27
    This is terrible. Instead of developing individually guided guided munitions, automated input of initial data, "military thought" rested its horn against a wall. This was true in 1941.
  18. The comment was deleted.
  19. 0
    13 August 2022 22: 09
    “It can be assumed that the forced decomposition of the impact force of the projectile jet on the screen of the launch guide package into two components will lead to

    those. even with computer technology, they have nothing factual except "assume" ...
    even modeling and calculating on a computer - no way ...
    1. 0
      16 August 2022 18: 20
      It would be much more logical not to engage in design frills, but to convert the multiple launch rocket system into a multiple launch rocket system, add a plate to the pipe package, the mortar method of throwing at close and medium distances is the most energy efficient, then comes artillery, rockets in last place.
      1. 0
        16 August 2022 20: 45
        I have a feeling that our problem is not in the "pipes", but in the ammunition (I'm not even talking about the "electronics" for providing / controlling fire)
        not exhibition samples, but "belligerents" ...
        this looks like a complete scam...
  20. 0
    18 August 2022 11: 23
    "pretentious accuracy" .. well .. you can not read .. but according to the text - another rearrangement of beds instead of a cardinal decision: instead of firing echelons of missiles, it is actually cheaper and more efficient to switch to guided weapons .. but the experience of the effect of using highmars, when 6 missiles are placed in a circle with a diameter of 10 meters, apparently they didn’t teach anyone anything ...
    1. 0
      19 August 2022 09: 23
      Quote: Krilion
      "pretentious accuracy" .. well .. you can not read .. but according to the text - another rearrangement of beds instead of a cardinal decision: instead of firing echelons of missiles, it is actually cheaper and more efficient to switch to guided weapons .. but the experience of the effect of using highmars, when 6 missiles are placed in a circle with a diameter of 10 meters, apparently they didn’t teach anyone anything ...

      You are right that it is necessary to develop high-precision weapons.
      It is not clear why it is assumed that we do not have such missiles - our MLRS of a larger caliber also have an adjustable high-precision missile.

      However, speaking of HIMARS, you forget the difference in quantity, caused, among other things, by the difference in complexity.
  21. +1
    19 August 2022 09: 11
    Guys, of course, excuse me, but it would be nice for the authors of this concept to finish at least 11 grades of the school.

    According to the calculations of the authors of the idea, the impact force of the jet on the guide package will decrease by about 20%.

    Let's see what the authors offer.

    When a rocket flies out of its guide, the jet stream acts PERPENDICULAR to the shield and ALONG the guides.
    Further, the force of its influence is directed along the guides and acts on the platform (machine) itself at the point of attachment of the package to the body. This point is much lower and closer to the center of mass.

    What the authors of the concept propose is to tilt the shield by 15 degrees and break the vector of forces acting ALONG the trunk into 2 components (the authors of the concept have already gone through the addition of vectors or not yet?).
    So it won't go down by 20%. 20% of the force will push the package not along the trunks but across, because. DOWNLOAD the entire structure at its very tip.

    Should we continue about the shoulder of strength, or does everyone remember the 9th grade at least in general terms?

    The authors urgently need to patent their accuracy reduction device.
  22. 0
    25 September 2022 05: 57
    So, here we have the best software for modeling any gas dynamics. One could try not to write assumptions.
  23. -2
    28 September 2022 20: 10
    This is how we cut the budget, we boast of a new development that is so old that they no longer remember when it was invented
  24. -1
    7 October 2022 11: 06

    . But this does not mean that multiple launch rocket systems firing unguided projectiles should not be improved.


    but I didn’t guess here .. why 10 unmanaged regiments if they are defeated by 1 regiment with managed ones? correctly, to ensure additional losses of drugs prepared under the outdated program .. zrad
  25. 0
    28 October 2022 11: 52
    Very interesting, but, in my opinion, the time has already come for each missile to be individually aimed at the target ... The 122m charge is quite powerful, especially if it arrives in the right place ...
  26. 0
    1 November 2022 08: 33
    Why not contact any industrial automation engineer? The device for retracting supports with a pneumatic drive can also be made on the basis of pneumatic cylinders for sale, and even skolhoz with brake chambers "Kamaz" - there is a lot of effort and low speed.
    I imagine it like this: the supports, approximately like those of a truck crane, have two levers in the upper part, translated through a dead center, a pneumatic cylinder is attached to the hinge. This arrangement eliminates the transmission of shocks to the pneumatic cylinder itself. Lowering in the usual way, with the rotation of the axis of the support with a crowbar. After firing - open the pneumatic actuator valve, it will move the middle hinges through the "dead center" and lift the supports from the ground, continuing to pull the levers. Yes, it is possible that when leaving the position, the supports will stick out to the sides, but a violation of the road clearance in a war is of little importance. And having run away to the side, stop and turn the supports into the size of the car.