The need for the evolution of weapons and tactics of the airborne troops as a result of the special operation in Ukraine

171

This material was in the process of being prepared by the time when an article on a similar topic was published on VO. It is characteristic that in many respects the opinions of the authors coincide; nevertheless, we will consider the problems and prospects of the airborne troops from a different angle.

margin of stability


The Airborne Forces (VDV) are considered one of the most prestigious branches of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation (RF Armed Forces). Both in the USSR and in Russia, special attention was and is being paid to the supply and training of airborne troops. With all the closeness of the armed forces during the heyday of the USSR, many films were made about the Airborne Forces, it was the airborne troops who were presented as Soviet supermen. The strength of the USSR Airborne Forces assumed massive landings behind enemy lines, which was supposed to act on the "spearhead" and on the "tip of the knife."



However, when faced with powerful, well-equipped enemy forces with strong air defenses, large-scale amphibious landings can only be dreamed of.

Firstly, in order to carry out large-scale landing operations, it is necessary to seize air supremacy, which in itself is not so simple. It is possible that it will not be possible to fully implement it at all practically until the end of the military conflict, as does not work we can achieve this in the course of a special operation in Ukraine.

Secondly, even air supremacy does not cancel the enemy's presence of anti-aircraft missile systems (SAMs), including man-portable air defense systems (MANPADS), which cannot be traced until the moment of their use. It is good to demonstrate on the movie screen how hundreds of paratroopers are thrown out, how military equipment is landed, but in reality, the massive use of landing forces in such conditions would turn into a bloodbath - downed transport aircraft, paratroopers shot in the air.

Another scenario for the use of the Airborne Forces is as airborne units, when enemy airfields are captured and the bulk of the airborne units are transferred to the captured airfield, without direct landing from aircraft.

But after all, in this case, the problem of seizing air supremacy does not disappear anywhere, and landing on a captured airfield is in question. What if part of the enemy units retreats to a populated area or to the "green" at the time of the capture of the airfield, and then, when a mass landing begins, they attack planes coming in for landing with the help of MANPADS, and those that have already landed - with the help of anti-tank guided missile systems (ATGM)? An attack can be carried out from a distance of about five kilometers - it is unrealistic to quickly take such territory under tight control. Yes, and other weapons of the enemy can "work out" the captured airfield from a much greater distance - mortars, artillery, multiple launch rocket systems (MLRS).


MANPADS crews hiding a few kilometers from the captured airfield can seriously complicate or even disrupt the landing of reinforcements


Only one MLRS "Grad" from a distance of 20-40 kilometers will turn the captured airfield into a mass grave for transport aircraft and troops

Isn't it possible that any more or less serious use of the Airborne Forces is, in fact, sending troops "for slaughter"?

And the actions in Ukraine fully confirm this forecast.

Airborne units are not capable of landing behind enemy lines and holding out for any significant time without the support of ground forces.

Even in the event of a successful landing, the Airborne Forces do not have heavy armor, no artillery, the amount of ammunition that the landing force can take with them is in any case very limited, and there is no way to organize an effective layered air defense (air defense) system.


Even the latest BMD-4s are not capable of withstanding heavy equipment and massive enemy artillery strikes.

However, all this applies not only to the Russian Airborne Forces, but also to the American Marine Corps. There is no doubt that in the event of an attempt to land a strong enemy on the coast, for example, Russia or China, American marines will drown in blood - ships sunk by anti-ship missiles (ASMs), planes and helicopters shot down by air defense systems, fighters in lightly armored vehicles crushed by artillery and MLRS.

In reality, we see that in all military conflicts in which the USSR and Russia took part, the Airborne Forces were used as ground units, most often better trained, with better motivation, but much worse armed than "full-weight" ground units.

Then the question arises, why do we need the Airborne Forces in their current form, what should be their weapons and tactics of use in the near future?

In order to decide how best to use the airborne forces, it is necessary to understand that sustainability is the opposite of mobility. The more mobile the units, the worse they are protected, the less armor they have, the less ammunition they have, the less the margin of resistance to enemy attacks. This allows us to say that during landing operations, any situations should be excluded, at least the probability of their occurrence, in which airborne units will have to hold any object or territory, should be minimized.

This means giving up massive landings in the depths of enemy territory in order to hold the object until the main forces approach - in reality, there will always be a reason why the advance of ground units will stop or be delayed, as a result of which the landing will go to "slaughter". Now we are not talking about the forward detachments of ground units, which, for example, moved forward with a throw “on the ground” in order to capture a bridge or some other important object, namely, an assault in its classical sense or an assault in the format of airmobile forces.

It can be assumed that the most promising and effective scenario for the use of airborne forces will be the use of the Airborne Forces as airborne sabotage and reconnaissance groups (DRGs), used on a significant scale.

Hit and run


Of course, there are sabotage and reconnaissance groups (DRGs) in the Russian armed forces even now, for this there are units of special operations forces (SOF). Such DRGs can also be formed from the composition of the Airborne Forces. Then what is the difference between the proposed tactics of using the Airborne Forces?

The differences are that in the proposed version, the DDRG becomes the main one for the Airborne Forces as a whole.

The ejection is carried out by disparate, well-armed small groups, simultaneously on vast areas of territory, away from large enemy military formations. Hundreds (thousands?) of DRRGs will inflict numerous strikes on weakly protected enemy military facilities, infrastructure facilities - airfields, fuel processing and storage facilities (fuel and lubricants), transport infrastructure facilities - road and railway bridges, railway junctions, electrical substations, long-range strike complexes type "Point-U" and much more.

The basic principle of the work of the Airborne Forces in the DDRG format should be the principle of "hit and run."

The depth of the deployment should be limited enough so that after completing the combat mission, depleting the ammunition, the DRRG could independently return to their territory. It can be assumed that this distance will not exceed 50-100 kilometers from the border of the territory controlled by its troops.

Why not do this job aviation and high precision weapons long range?

The problem is that the stocks of long-range cruise and aeroballistic missiles are limited, spending them on every bridge, every substation is too much of a luxury.

But an even more serious problem lies in the reliability of intelligence information about the targets being hit - everyone remembers Ukrainian aviation, radar and anti-aircraft missile systems (SAM), “destroyed” by long-range precision weapons on the first day of the special operation. "Eyes on the ground" allow not only to reliably distinguish the layout from the real target, but also to assess the consequences of striking.

However, the actions of promising amphibious assault groups do not cancel strikes with high-precision weapons, rather, they “catalyze” the effect of their use, making them an order of magnitude more effective.

The optimal solution is to minimize the number of DRRG fighters entering into direct fire contact with the enemy. The main weapon of the DDRG should be advanced reconnaissance, target designation and communications, providing high-precision selective engagement of selected targets with corrected multiple rocket launcher systems (MLRS) and artillery, guided bombs and aircraft missiles, and in the event of hitting especially important targets - cruise and operational-tactical missiles.

The need for the evolution of weapons and tactics of the airborne troops as a result of the special operation in Ukraine

Reconnaissance, identification with a high degree of certainty of priority targets and aiming at them with precision weapons should be the main priority and tactics of the DDRG

The large-scale use of the DDRG will force the enemy to concentrate troops to destroy them, after which they themselves can become a target for Russian aviation. In this case, the main task of the DRRG is not to hit targets, but in fact a provocation - to force the enemy to open up, turn on the radar stations (radar) of the air defense system, lift the existing aircraft / helicopters and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), push armored vehicles that will reveal their location and become targets for Russian aviation, artillery, MLRS ...

The use of the Airborne Forces in the DDRG format will require changes in their training and equipment.

Weapon Selection


Firstly, the means of delivery will change - heavy transport aircraft can only deliver fighters and equipment of the Airborne Forces to the border of the line of contact, without entering the enemy's air defense zone. Further, the nomination of the DDRG can be carried out either by helicopters or convertiplanes (if we have such machines in the future), or by promising small-sized, inconspicuous transport aircraft. If there are no questions regarding the transportation of fighters, then it is already more difficult with ground combat vehicles - almost everything can be transported by Mi-26 helicopters, but we have few such vehicles, and combat losses will quickly reduce their number to zero - some kind of compromise is needed.


Mi-26 - good, but not enough - the production of these machines needs to be urgently increased

Secondly, the military equipment of the Airborne Forces must also be adapted for the chosen tactics of use - armored airborne combat vehicles (BMD), not to mention something heavier, do not belong here. Perhaps the solution will be some light and mobile off-road vehicles, something like buggies, ATVs or even motorcycles.


The Chaborz M-3 light, highly passable armed tactical all-terrain vehicle (buggy) is light - developed by order of the Russian University of Special Forces in the Chechen Republic by Zenit-Defens.


Army ATV AM-1 of the Russian Mechanics company


Military electric motorcycle of the Kalashnikov concern

Thirdly, almost all weapons of the Airborne Forces should become highly accurate - the landing force cannot afford to carry wagons of shells, so the basis of the weapons of the Airborne Forces should be ATGMs, MANPADS, UAVs for various purposes, used both for reconnaissance and for hitting targets, including UAVs -kamikaze, promising small arms with sighting systems and the latest equipment.

Examples of promising military equipment that can be effectively used by the DDRG were previously discussed in the articles:

- UAV kamikaze: new capabilities of ground units;
- Drones against manpower: will small-sized UAVs replace the rifle on the battlefield?;
- Car "Tiger Sniper": remotely controlled modules of high-precision weapons for ground combat equipment;
- Jet motorcycle and flying board: special vehicles for special forces;
- Battle suit. Wound statistics, bullets and splinters;
- From the machine gun to the rifle-information complex;
- Ultimate assault rifle for special forces;
- Remotely controlled complexes: automated firing points.


Medium lift helicopters can transport quad buggies in the cargo hold...


...or on an external sling

All this, combined with enhanced training, will allow the Airborne Forces to attack an enemy that is superior in number and in the presence of heavy weapons. To attack, but not to deter the attacks of such, because, as we said above, defense and landing are incompatible (unless we consider the option of heroic death).

For example, the DDRG could effectively act within the framework of solving the problem of destroying Ukraine's communications, discussed in the article "Decomposition of Ukraine as a way to radically reduce the capabilities of the Armed Forces of Ukraine to resist the Russian special operation", acting to a depth of about 50–100 kilometers from the Russian or Belarusian border.

The result of the massive use of the DDRG will be the diversion of significant enemy forces to counter this threat, problems with the transportation of reinforcements, fuel and weapons.

In the context of Ukraine, this means that the territorial defense detachments that the Armed Forces of Ukraine are now deploying to the front lines would remain in the rear, at least most of them. It is possible that a significant part of the weapons supplied by Western countries would not have reached the front line at all.

The transformation of the Airborne Forces into the format of numerous, well-armed DRRGs cannot happen overnight. A huge amount of available equipment and fighters trained within the framework of the existing tactics of using the Airborne Forces will not go anywhere.

Airmobile units


As we said earlier, the use of the Airborne Forces in the format of airmobile units when landing on enemy-controlled territory is fraught with huge losses. And the Airborne Forces, most likely, will not be able to keep a foothold in the depths of enemy territory (of course, if these are not Somali pirates, but relatively modern armed forces). However, on the territory controlled by its own troops, the use of the Airborne Forces as an airmobile force will quickly build up the strike force in the chosen direction.


The airborne forces can transfer manpower and equipment much faster than the ground forces

Potentially, this will make it possible to pull the enemy, quickly concentrating troops near his borders in those directions in which active hostilities were not conducted before.

The enemy has two options:

- the first: to react, draw up troops, build fortifications, thereby weakening other areas;

- second: do not react, but in this case, the airborne forces concentrated for a strike can deliver a swift strike to a given depth of the enemy’s territory, probe his defenses in this area, and then move back, simultaneously destroying everything that was interesting in this area as targets.

In the second option, if the advance is successful, the command may decide to build on the success by supporting the Airborne Forces with ground forces.

And, of course, the Airborne Forces can still be used for operational deployment to those areas where ground forces urgently need support, or where the enemy himself decided to go on the offensive, and the concentration of our troops is insufficient.


Airborne requires a lot of transport aircraft

In all the cases described above, the existing equipment and weapons of the Airborne Forces can be effectively used, with only one condition - the share of high-precision weapons in the ammunition load of the Airborne Forces must continuously increase. Where several hundred conventional projectiles are needed, only 1-2 high-precision ones are enough. As we said above, the Airborne Forces cannot afford to carry echelons of shells, which means that the choice is obvious.

Conclusions


Beautiful and spectacular massive airborne assaults, most likely, will remain only in feature films, perhaps we will still see them in exercises (which will have no practical meaning).

However, the Airborne Forces can play an important role not only as infantry with increased training and motivation, but also as airmobile troops, forcing the enemy to respond to a threat, concentrate troops and expose them to attack, and sometimes deliver surprise strikes deep into the territory of the enemy who did not have time to react. on the concentration of Russian landing troops at their borders.

Also, the Airborne Forces can quickly reinforce the ground forces in the chosen direction in the event of an attack by superior enemy forces, ensuring superiority in manpower and equipment, disrupting the enemy’s offensive.

It can be assumed that the most promising way for the development of the Airborne Forces is their gradual transformation into numerous, well-trained and equipped airborne sabotage and reconnaissance groups - DDRG, a kind of "swarm" capable of striking in many places at the same time, with subsequent evasion of a retaliatory strike and retreat . Promising DDRGs should rely on stealth, mobility and the power of the first strike, but not engage in holding enemy territory.

The transformation will require the creation of new vehicles for the DRRG, highly effective means of reconnaissance, control and covert communications, allowing to issue target designation to aviation and artillery, as well as the maximum saturation of the Airborne Forces / DRRG with high-precision weapons.

In the future, the structure and tactics of the Airborne Forces may undergo even more serious changes, but we will talk about this in the next article.
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  1. +23
    10 August 2022 04: 29
    It is already clear that the Airborne Forces are waiting for reorganization. NVO shows that now it is very difficult, if not impossible, to suppress the air defense system in order to ensure the passage of transport aircraft with troops and ensure the landing of troops. So, I think that the airborne units, with their excellent personal training, should be reformatted into jaegers (light infantry), providing it with everything that is possible. Especially in terms of artillery and mobility, and unify as much as possible with motorized rifles, without sacrificing mobility
    1. +37
      10 August 2022 06: 01
      Quote: svp67
      airborne units, with their excellent personal training, must be reformatted into jaegers (light infantry),

      They need to be reorganized into classic motorized rifle divisions.!
      ----------------
      For those tasks that the author of the article described, two MTR brigades are more than enough. sad In addition, each MSD has a reconnaissance battalion, in which there is a sabotage and reconnaissance company.
      ------------
      That "mouse fuss" .. that is taking place now in Ukraine .. precisely because desperately missing normal .. trained MSDs. It is the motorized rifle corps that are capable of breaking through and pushing back the front line hundreds of kilometers in a short time (a week and a half).
      -----------------
      Available .. numerous branches of the armed forces (Airborne Forces) .. given .. that it is manned by conscription .. and spends a fair amount of time and energy .. on useless parachute training .. etc. etc. .. There is an extremely inefficient waste of soldiers and officers.
      Quote: svp67
      airborne units, with their excellent personal training,

      But who told you that the Airborne Forces are better prepared than the normal MSD ??? Better prepared!!! They are better fed .. yes .. But they also know how to shoot worse .. and are untrained in offensive and defensive tactics .. and they don’t know how to interact with artillery and tanks .. .. because - they don’t have either one or the other .. etc. etc. .d etc.
      1. +18
        10 August 2022 06: 16
        Yes, I've been asking questions for a long time, maybe someone knows.
        And why the hell do you hear vegetables only about BTG?
        Where are the actions by divisions, at least, there are not even questions about larger military formations.
        The question is that the super BTG does not provide the required width of the breakthrough section at all.
        In a word, all the charters and instructions are apparently junk.
        So it all comes down to tactical gnawing of defense.
        1. +11
          10 August 2022 06: 44
          Quote: saigon
          Where are the actions by divisions, at least, there are not even questions about larger military formations.

          There are no full-fledged divisions on the Ukrainian front. Shortage of personnel. Just enough for BTG.
          1. +6
            10 August 2022 07: 28
            Shortage of personnel.

            Cons of the voluntary recruitment principle, there are not enough people.
            1. +1
              12 August 2022 04: 50
              Quote: strannik1985
              Disadvantages of the voluntary recruitment principle

              The military-political leadership is afraid of the word "mobilization" like fire, because discontent and tension can immediately arise in the society of "single-child families" (thanks to the liberal asocial ideology and economic policy of victorious capitalism).
              And there is also the most acute problem with the prepared reserve, because ... no one prepared it. And a fighter who served only a year for a term is not a trained fighter. For such a fighter can be trained in a year, but he does not have time to consolidate the acquired skills and returns to civilian life. Where very soon loses acquired skills and even knowledge.
              As one of the means of increasing the combat readiness of the Army in terms of conscripts, it is necessary to urgently consider the issue of increasing the term of military service to TWO YEARS. This is the minimum at which the fighters of the second year of service are already trained soldiers and are able to perform combat missions during a real conflict. Such an approach, by the way, will make it possible to significantly increase the size of the peacetime army without resorting to a more numerous call-up, and will allow the release into the reserve of already really trained military specialists with military skills fixed by practice, knowledge, who have mastered accounting specialties.
              And it will not work to travel on contract soldiers in a serious conflict. For it will not work quickly to recruit / call for them (the contract is voluntary, after all), and it will not work to keep a peacetime army consisting of almost only contract soldiers - it is expensive, it requires additional infrastructure, and this will lead to the fact that the size of such an army (peacetime) will be under any pretext to reduce .
              Therefore, a reasonable balance is needed, towards a certain increase in the proportion of conscripts, but with a service life of at least TWO YEARS ... In my lieutenant years, senior officers of pre-retirement age recalled HOW the level of combat training and the overall QUALITY of personnel dipped, after switching from 3- x year service life to 2 year standard. The Fleet suffered even more! Where they used to serve for 5 years, and began ... only 3 years. It was after such a reform with a service life, after some time, that the Army forbade sergeants to appoint "senior machines" ... because sergeants with such a service life became just boobies, and various (not conceivable before) incidents began ...
              Quote: strannik1985
              people are missing.

              Yes, there are not enough people.
              And this liberal-democratic RF is at war only with the former Ukraine.
              What if it lights up somewhere else?

              With the beginning of the NWO in the Kremlin towers, they suddenly realized - they suddenly began ... to revive "Pioneer" ... and even started talking about the value of the family winked and (oh "ugh!) - motherhood belay . Which is completely unusual for liberals and apologists for the "free market".
              It turned out that in the Russian Federation there is simply nowhere to take ... soldiers.
              The only child of draft age, either studying with his parents or sick. And more than one in the Russian Federation, only in the Caucasus, Tatarstan, and among the small peoples of the North and Siberia, give birth ...
              But it’s so “good” that they came up with everything - the “Little Army” (the dream of the Supreme High Command, aka GDP) of contract soldiers and a little bit of conscripts (the percentage of which should “certainly decrease”), magnificent parades in front of the draped Mausoleum ... agreements and solving cases "right people" ... peppy reports and outrageous propaganda ...
              what And suddenly - I had to fight.
              How to live further?
              Remember the phrase: "Well, if these volunteers on a free (!) basis are ready to come to fight, let them go." In this phrase ... everything. Let them come (Arabs, Africans, others who wish) and fight for free (!!) against the damned fascists ... With whom for some reason they could not agree.
              And they... didn't go.
              There are no bad ones to die for free and become crippled ... And they had to pay their own ...
              And they seem to be paying.
              But there are no divisions on the fronts.
              And it's scary to even think about mobilization.
          2. +8
            10 August 2022 07: 44
            Battalion tactical groups (reinforced battalions in the old way) do not act on their own, but as part of regiments, brigades, which are part of divisions and corps. Another thing is that there are not enough divisions, and hence the BTG too.
            As for the Airborne Forces, everything in the article is correct. Changes in weapons have always changed tactics in history.
            In particular, the infantry now has light but fairly long-range
            and accurate fire weapons, such as ATGMs, MANPADS, the saturation of the armies with accurate and powerful MLRS, artillery systems made deep breakthroughs and landings unpromising without immediate reinforcement of the strike units that broke through into the depths of the defense with a mass of infantry, which should clear large territories from the enemy through which supply lines pass, to minimize the defeat of columns and other objects of rear and technical support, at least by DRG and tactical artillery.
            Yes, and the movement of the "tank wedge" after breaking through the defense is now possible, perhaps, only in platoon, sometimes in company columns, respectively, far from one relatively good road, with mandatory reconnaissance of places of possible ambushes of enemy infantry with ATGMs and the destruction of those.
            This, too, will not accelerate the pace of the offensive.
            1. +1
              10 August 2022 17: 38
              I think in the divisions and brigades of the Airborne Forces and the Airborne Forces, helicopter regiments will be created with transport Mi-8AMTSH and attack Mi-35 with reinforced EW / EW body kit
              as well as the introduction of passive exoskeletons for mounted armor, + built-in parachute system for low-altitude landing (up to 25 meters)
              - high-altitude landing is the destiny of the MTR
            2. +3
              10 August 2022 17: 41
              Quote: Alekseev
              Battalion tactical groups (reinforced battalions in the old way) do not act on their own, but as part of regiments, brigades, which are part of divisions and corps. Another thing is that there are not enough divisions, and hence the BTG too.

              Not only are there not enough divisions, but there are also few personnel in platoons, companies, and battalions. A little more than 300 people in the battalion (and this is if there are no losses and everything is in the state). Despite the fact that the United States has up to 700-900 bayonets in battalions. Here's another example, information for thought - in the expeditionary battalion of marines 72 bbm (armored cars, etc.). Yes, they are inferior in armament to our BTR-82, but they make it possible to use a lot of infantry + a separate supply unit (which is also not bad).

              Quote: Alekseev
              Yes, and the movement of the "tank wedge" after breaking through the defense is now possible, perhaps, only in platoon, sometimes in company columns, respectively, far from one relatively good road, with mandatory reconnaissance of places of possible ambushes of enemy infantry with ATGMs and the destruction of those.
              This, too, will not accelerate the pace of the offensive.

              Unfortunately, you are right. I will add that, given the fact that on our armor, in addition to DZ (and even then only on tanks), there are no countermeasures at all (neither KAZs, nor at least KOEPs (you can not mention the ancient curtain) and fire detection systems), then only and all hope remains for art.
          3. -1
            10 August 2022 19: 01
            There are no full-fledged divisions on the Ukrainian front. Shortage of personnel. Just enough for BTG.

            Not in this case.
            Nothing prevents you from driving all these BTGs into a super-duper division. And hit with a concentrated blow. But UAVs are on the alert, and Tochki-U are on the siding. wink
            The time of massive military formations has passed.
          4. +1
            12 August 2022 04: 56
            Quote: Hoarfrost
            There are no full-fledged divisions on the Ukrainian front. Shortage of personnel. Just enough for BTG.

            BTG in our case, it is in its essence and composition - reinforced consolidated assault regiments. Number of 1000 - 1500 people. In addition to a motorized rifle battalion, they have a tank battalion, an artillery battalion, a mortar and reconnaissance company. Of course, with variations - sometimes as part of a tank company and an artillery battery.
            In the current combat situation, such a structural formation is the most rational and justified.
            The only question is their number on the theater.
        2. 0
          10 August 2022 12: 25
          Where are the actions by divisions, at least, there are not even questions about larger military formations.

          And who will be in charge? How many divisions are there in the army?
        3. -1
          10 August 2022 17: 59
          Yes, I've been asking questions for a long time, maybe someone knows.
          And why the hell do you hear vegetables only about BTG?
          Where are the actions by divisions, at least, there are not even questions about larger military formations.
          The question is that the super BTG does not provide the required width of the breakthrough section at all.
          In a word, all the charters and instructions are apparently junk.
          So it all comes down to tactical gnawing of defense.

          From such a hell that divisions of 15 people exist only in the minds of peacetime military theorists, staff mobilization documents and ostentatious divisions in the PPD, such as Tamanskaya.

          In reality, starting from the Roman legions, tactical formations from 3 to 6 thousand people (i.e. brigades) fight in tactical formations, in which an advanced combat core stands out, numbering about 1000. And this core, as a rule, is also divided into 2-3 units, actually reinforced battalions. This is BTG.

          Nothing prevented Vasilevsky in the Koenigsberg operation from bringing together 27 4 thousandth "divisions" into 9 12 thousandth. But he understood that in this case his troops would turn into an uncontrollable horde and König would remain German.



          PS Some wonder why they fight in brigades in Ancient Rome and now? After all, the weapon has changed, then the sword, now the AK. This is due to the anatomical and physiological characteristics of the human body. If we were hobbits, we would fight in divisions. laughing
      2. +14
        10 August 2022 07: 10
        Quote: ammunition
        They need to be reorganized into classic motorized rifle divisions.!

        No. There are situations where the "classic" MSD is redundant and very clumsy
        Quote: ammunition
        In addition, each MSD has a reconnaissance battalion, in which there is a sabotage and reconnaissance company.

        For operations in a wooded area, this is not enough. For a quick transfer to a threatened theater, the MSD is very "heavy", for landing as part of a tactical airborne assault, again overloaded
        Quote: ammunition
        But who told you that the Airborne Forces are better prepared than the normal MSD ???

        Experience, service experience.
        Quote: ammunition
        Better prepared!!!

        I do not agree. Unfortunately, our conventional infantry is in many ways inferior in training to the "winged infantry", where the same fighters are trained to fight, without relying on the rear, on their own
        Quote: ammunition
        for - they have neither one nor the other .. etc. etc. etc.

        Yes, they have everything, and now they must appear even more
        1. +6
          10 August 2022 07: 22
          Quote: svp67
          Experience, service experience.

          My experience says the opposite. Only I mean normal MSD. That is, such an MSD, for which the same amount of resources (monetary) was allocated for the training of personnel as for the airborne forces.
          SME (company) hit 90% (ninety percent) of targets at night RTU. At least one landing company is capable of this ???
          1. +3
            10 August 2022 07: 28
            Quote: ammunition
            At least one landing company is capable of this ???

            Let's just say that what I had to see, and their units practiced the stage of live firing at our training ground, yes, they can. Their marksmanship is very high.
            1. +4
              10 August 2022 07: 34
              Quote: svp67
              Let's just say that what I had to see, and their units practiced the stage of live firing at our training ground, yes, they can. Their marksmanship is very high.

              Dear Sergey!
              I'm not talking about doing standard exercises on the shooting range. I'm talking about night RTU with combat shooting. This is heaven and earth.
              ------------------
              I'll add .. to the postscript. Retired colonel M. Being a battalion commander in the mid-80s .. At the night BTU .. shaking his fists, he shouted - "Oh! ***** Yes, with this there would be battalions in Afghanistan !!!"
              And why ? Because as many resources have been allocated to training as are allocated to the VDB. And the battalion outnumbered any VDB by a head. And in terms of shooting (especially), and in moral and strong-willed .. and in tactical, and in physical .. and (most importantly) in perfect controllability (like with your own five fingers). And the ability to navigate in a stressful situation .. and the ability to shoot with high accuracy .. in any conditions .. and at any distance .. day and night - the battalion was excellent.
              1. +2
                10 August 2022 10: 10
                Quote: ammunition
                I'm not talking about doing standard exercises on the shooting range. I'm talking about the night RTU with live fire. This is heaven and earth.

                If you know what a MOUTH is, then you should know what the STAGE OF COMBAT SHOOTING on them is. The landing force has its own difference, in front of it they carry out LANDING, COLLECTION, and then it went ...
                Quote: ammunition
                And the battalion outnumbered any VDB by a head.

                A very bold statement...
      3. +8
        10 August 2022 08: 07
        But who told you that the Airborne Forces are better prepared than the normal MSD ??? Better prepared!!! They are better fed .. yes .. But they also know how to shoot worse .. and are untrained in offensive and defensive tactics .. and they don’t know how to interact with artillery and tanks .. .. because - they don’t have either one or the other .. etc. etc. .d etc.
        In general, I agree. The cinematic image of a mass airborne assault has long ceased to correspond to reality. But in general - a paratrooper is a voluntary encirclement. Everything depends on his further actions and initiatives.
        1. +1
          10 August 2022 19: 08
          In general, I agree. The cinematic image of a mass airborne assault has long ceased to correspond to reality.

          Corresponds to.
          In the movies (Retaliation, etc.), they were all caught or liquidated too. The last shots, where the group "captures" the UAZ, and then the headquarters - a violation of the rules of the exercises. In reality, they are already dead.
          Anyway, it was a cunning plan of the sailors, they were sent to be slaughtered by a specialist (as in life).
          Another thing is that our "strategists", having seen enough of such films, expect miracles from the Airborne Forces.
          But miracles, as you know, do not happen. winked
      4. +3
        10 August 2022 08: 25
        Quote: ammunition
        But who told you that the Airborne Forces are better prepared than the normal MSD ??? Better prepared!!! They are better fed .. yes .. But they also know how to shoot worse .. and are untrained in offensive and defensive tactics .. and they don’t know how to interact with artillery and tanks .. .. because - they don’t have either one or the other .. etc. etc. .d etc.

        Russian defense analyst, director of the Moscow Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, Ruslan Pukhov, says the same thing:

        The SVO showed that at the moment the airborne troops, roughly speaking, are bad ersatz infantry. Because their aluminum infantry fighting vehicles are generally easily hit, and they have fewer other weapons than motorized rifles.
      5. -2
        10 August 2022 09: 51
        Good thought comes afterwards.
        The meaning of the article.
        You are a plus, and SVP is a minus = in the end both are right.

        The correct conclusion and accounting does not change anything in the army.
        Here the bullet flew past and ... not aha.
        Serdyukov's reforms did not produce results.
        Or?
        And the most bitter, wise men, what and where for 5-7 years before 22g?
        Did you write reports about berets-pants? Going into the open press is already a failure of thought in my mind.
        + Restrictions from politics to the military.
        I do not conclude
      6. 0
        10 August 2022 17: 43
        Quote: ammunition
        in classic motorized rifle divisions.!

        And change the awl to soap. No matter what anyone says, the Airborne Forces even now are many times superior in mobility and in terms of the level of training of ordinary motorized riflemen. Let's turn them into MTS - we get the same clumsy and small group of infantry.
        Perhaps it is necessary to increase the number and quality (training and equipment) of infantry in the MTS units, create their own light infantry units with strong artillery support and, in parallel, develop the Airborne Forces with an emphasis on air mobility.
      7. 0
        10 August 2022 18: 57
        For those tasks that the author of the article described, two MTR brigades are more than enough.

        It was like that in WWII. Our OMSBON - 2 brigades. German Brandenburg-800 - up to the division. And this is for the entire theater of World War II! bully
      8. The comment was deleted.
      9. 0
        11 August 2022 10: 21
        Quote: ammunition
        But who told you that the Airborne Forces are better prepared than the normal MSD ???

        Who, who... PR!!! Winged Guard, Nobody but us, the rest of the fuel oil, In the area of ​​​​special attention, while I'm hanging in the slings - you're in the f ...... e kitty laughing And so on ...
        If anything, I served in Svirskaya 98th ... laughing
    2. -1
      10 August 2022 08: 00
      Quote: svp67
      ... to ensure the landing is very difficult, if not impossible ...

      Attention!

      On the first day of the special operation, the Russian Airborne Forces landed at the Antonov airfield in Gostomel, just 25 kilometers from Kyiv:



      The landing party completed its task.
      Remember before that in the Crimea.



      Bury early. The Airborne Forces will also put a flower on your grave.
      1. +7
        10 August 2022 08: 16
        Maybe! On the first day of the special operation, the Russian military landed at the Antonov airfield in Gostomel, just 25 kilometers from Kyiv.


        The landing party completed its task


        This task could be performed by motorized rifles, and not just by landing.
        1. -10
          10 August 2022 08: 25
          Quote: Konnick
          This task could be performed by motorized rifles, and not just by landing.

          If my grandmother had a member, then she would be a grandfather.
          1. +1
            10 August 2022 10: 15
            If my grandmother had a member, then she would be a grandfather.

            Very witty and relevant ... when there are no other arguments.
        2. 0
          12 August 2022 07: 56
          Could, but did not, and why? Because they weren't there. Why wasn't it? Apparently because the motorized riflemen were not able to cope with this, therefore they sent paratroopers, everything is simply impossible)
          1. 0
            12 August 2022 08: 13
            Apparently because the motorized riflemen were not able to cope with this, therefore they sent paratroopers, everything is simply impossible)

            Why couldn't they do it? Motorized riflemen have better combat training, since paratroopers take up half the time of study with paratroopers. Have you watched movies?
            1. 0
              12 August 2022 08: 29
              Why couldn't they do it?
              Because they were not used during the Gostomel operation)
              No, I served in the Airborne Forces)
              Who said it's better? You?
              Something I didn’t really hear flattering reviews about the quality of combat training in the current motorized rifle formations, although in fairness it’s worth noting that it dipped everywhere, this training, since the army became more for parades and photo reports than for war.
              1. 0
                12 August 2022 08: 41
                No, I served in the Airborne Forces)

                Motorized riflemen did not have such losses that entire companies perished. Here is the main indicator of skill. I stop all discussion.
                1. 0
                  12 August 2022 08: 56
                  As you wish)
      2. +2
        10 August 2022 08: 36
        Quote: Boris55
        On the first day of the special operation, the Russian Airborne Forces landed at the Antonov airfield in Gostomel, just 25 kilometers from Kyiv:

        How awesome are you thinking. The paratroopers landed not by parachute. Then they fought heroically for 2 days until reinforcements arrived. And the publication is talking about the presence of cardboard BMD, which cannot be landed if the enemy has air defense.
        1. +1
          10 August 2022 09: 42
          Can "non-cardboard" BMDs be landed if the enemy has air defense? I can't follow the depth of your thought. Do you not like BMD or the landing itself?
          1. +9
            10 August 2022 11: 03
            Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
            Can "non-cardboard" BMDs be landed if the enemy has air defense? I can't follow the depth of your thought. Do you not like BMD or the landing itself?

            I don’t like the fact that the Airborne Forces are exchanging the performance characteristics of armored vehicles for an option that is extremely difficult to use in theory, but in practice they have never been used at all - for parachute landing.
            As more than half a century of practice has shown, airborne vehicles require air mobility, that is, the possibility of transporting military aircraft from airfield to airfield. And for this, it is not necessary to squeeze its performance characteristics into the Procrustean bed of a parachute landing platform - only into the dimensions of the aircraft cabin and into the mass it raises. Plus, when the platform itself is excluded from the "platform-equipment" system, we have a reserve of mass (up to one and a half tons) and dimensions (primarily height) to improve the performance characteristics of equipment within the existing MGH.
            The most important thing is that our Airborne Forces have long mutated into elite light infantry, which operates in the same ranks as tankers and motorized riflemen. On the other hand, the existing BTA aircraft will be enough to land no more than one aircrew with standard equipment. And when designing equipment for the Airborne Forces, you need to proceed from these realities.
      3. 0
        10 August 2022 09: 59
        Memory is better without flowers.
        And graves.
        The SVP did not mention the simplest thing - tugriks for 1 hour of the airborne forces against 1 grubby land.
        Who is cheaper? And who is more efficient in 1 rupee?
        + price-quality ratio = victory.
        Money does not come from oil, but from the milkmaid Comrade Mani, etc.
        1. +3
          10 August 2022 10: 10
          Quote: antivirus
          charges in tugriks for 1 hour airborne against 1 grubby land.
          Who is cheaper? And who is more efficient in 1 rupee?

          You see the essence! The cost of maintaining the fleet and training in parachute training .. very high! The MSD, at the same costs as the VDD, receives only 20 rounds of ammunition (twenty thousand pieces) per fighter per year. This applies only to shooting training! MSD trained at the same cost is a very powerful force and very good. efficient. The ratio of forces is 000 to 5 .. or even more. IMHO.
      4. +6
        10 August 2022 10: 14
        Quote: Boris55
        Attention!

        Well, these are TACTICAL HELICOPTER LANDING. And where are the clouds of ILs from which paratroopers are pouring? Where are the domes under which BMD and other equipment hang?
        Previously, MOTOR GUNS were trained for such helicopter landings
      5. +2
        10 August 2022 10: 19
        The landing party completed its task.
        Remember before that in the Crimea.

        Crimea was taken by special operations forces. It was they who seized the communication centers and deprived the Armed Forces of Ukraine of the ability to control their units, even to declare a combat alert. And to surround and block the peacefully sleeping military personnel of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in their barracks is already secondary.
      6. +1
        10 August 2022 12: 33
        On the first day of the special operation, the Russian Airborne Forces landed at the Antonov airfield in Gostomel, just 25 kilometers from Kyiv.

        Tell the regiment 247!
      7. -2
        11 August 2022 10: 30
        Quote: Boris55
        Bury early. The Airborne Forces will also put a flower on your grave.

        Whose? belay
    3. 0
      11 August 2022 23: 00
      svp67:

      —-First of all, determine the nature of military operations: on your own or someone else's territory. The Airborne Forces are applicable to the defense of Russia as airmobile formations.

      - Russia is huge. The Armed Forces are built on the basis of the principle necessary for the implementation of Russia's security in the defense doctrine. Airborne Forces - reserve of the Supreme Commander-in-Chief. As the author pointed out, the Airborne Forces in this case are necessary to solve temporary problems in critical conditions. The Airborne Forces land quite far from the enemy, with temporary air supremacy in a four-dimensional geographic and temporal volume.

      —-There is no air supremacy EVERYWHERE AND ALWAYS in modern wars. And temporary, on the territory of Russia, is possible and sufficient to complete the task.

      - Once again - such a role of the Airborne Forces in the defense of its territory corresponds, roughly speaking, to the structure of the Airborne Forces. Russia is huge, you can't always protect everything. By the way, and therefore the VTA can land on unpaved airfields.

      —- In military operations on foreign territory, say in densely populated Europe, this model of using the airborne forces does not work, except perhaps in 68 in Czechoslovakia. But this is a special case of a quasi-colonial operation.

      - The number and strengthening of the Airborne Forces is a separate issue.

      —-Regarding heavy weapons for the Airborne Forces - it is possible to pre-position it in each of the Military Districts, as the ILC and the Airmobile Divisions of the Probable Enemy do ... in SE Asia, Poland, the Baltic States ... etc.

      —-DDRG is a special operations force. The strength and armament is a separate issue. Perhaps the composition of the DDRG may grow at the expense of parts of the Airborne Forces.
  2. +12
    10 August 2022 05: 15
    All the conclusions that the author made, the Germans made by 1941. Already during operations in Norway and Crete, it became clear that parachute landing was a very risky business, and associated with heavy losses. The same was understood by the Americans and the British in Normandy in 1944. If the Germans had at least a couple of tank and infantry divisions, the entire allied landing would have ended sadly. The landing force can only act against a much weaker enemy. Like in Grenada. But in Cuba, this number did not work for the Americans.
  3. +6
    10 August 2022 06: 33
    Evolution... change of tactics...
    Still, people serve in the Airborne Forces, not robots. And war is not a game of soldiers. Even in peacetime, it is very difficult to throw out an amphibious unit during exercises. In the Russian army, already, it has never been possible to drop a division by landing.
  4. +10
    10 August 2022 06: 36
    It is not that simple
    Airborne Forces in the field, the steppes are an excellent target without opposition
    But given the size of our state, I would not be in a hurry to put an end to the Airborne Forces ... We need a mobile transfer of troops to a critical region and not only for external reflection, I would transfer the Airborne Forces to the FSB
    Well, in the event of a war in the field, the steppes just need to be rearmed by the Airborne Forces, as they did in Afghanistan with the 103rd Vitebsk Airborne Division and the 345th Airborne Regiment in Bagram, giving them tanks and artillery, removing the BMD
    But the Marine Corps needs to form divisions, we have many islands around strategic
    Yes, I would leave the BTG, but I would advance in front with an entire division, try to stop a tank division deployed in battle formation in the field or steppe with the support of 2 regiments of fire support helicopters, and fighters above
    BTG in Chechnya is not from a good life
    1. +1
      10 August 2022 08: 22
      The means of reconnaissance of destruction have changed while you are deploying a division; they will cover it with MLRS, artillery and aircraft, or they will drive it into a fire bag when advancing. we saw all this in the SVO .. today either the DRG or the fire shaft roller .. There is another option for the mass integrated use of high-precision weapons where hundreds / thousands of UAVs, high-precision artillery, aviation are involved, and all this is in a single network and what is the name ACCS https:/ /topwar.ru/33550-koncepciy-avtomatizirovannoy-sistemy-upravleniya-boevymi-deystviyami.html, but there is no technological possibility for the latter
      1. +1
        10 August 2022 09: 30
        I would look at this art when there are 2 regiments of fire support helicopters in the air and with active air and satellite reconnaissance
        Artillery easy target for aviation
        It's just that an ace system is needed here, if it is not there, then you are not ready for war
        About air defense
        You also need to lift 200 or more aircraft into the air, and again you need an ace and drill, and not fly in pairs
        SO the tank division should attack and not blindly in the absence of reconnaissance and UAVs
        1. +1
          10 August 2022 09: 43
          Quote: Saboteur_Navy
          I would look at this art when there are 2 regiments of fire support helicopters in the air and with active air and satellite reconnaissance

          No, I'm also for all the good and against all the bad ..
      2. +3
        10 August 2022 10: 17
        Quote: max702
        while you are deploying the division, they will cover it with MLRS, artillery and aviation

        And you don’t need to deploy within the reach of unsuppressed art, etc. Deploy on your territory .. a motorized rifle corps of three divisions .. with the appropriate reconnaissance .. aviation .. etc. And proprate this hull like a steamroller .. without letting you come to your senses or gain a foothold .. or even dig in your howitzers.
        1. +2
          10 August 2022 11: 16
          Then why the landing on Gostomel and other brave columns tens of kilometers long in the NVO? The author of the article about this and says that the landing is EVERYTHING ..
    2. +5
      10 August 2022 08: 27
      I would leave the BTG, but would advance in front with a whole division

      That's right. BTG is World War II tactic, guerrilla warfare and operations against Bashi-Bazouks. In a division, it is easier to create a concentration of forces in the right direction and a combat complex that can afford to have a command and control system and interaction with aviation, satellite constellation and its own reconnaissance and strike UAVs, and not only at the level of company-platoon, infantry-tanks-artillery. And the fact that now we see a hodgepodge of units, from a company to a battalion, of different subordination, such as the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, the NM of the Lao PDR, and even in addition the Wagnerites, performing a common task without a single battle control center and often not having communication with each other , which even provokes friendly fire, this is a shame for our General Staff.
      1. +3
        10 August 2022 14: 29
        This is not a shame, this is the experience of Chechen ..... operations .... What about the constitutional order, EMNIP. It took .... several years, we got up from our knees ..... But experience, as you know, you can’t drink away feel Unlike the harmonium wink
    3. +1
      10 August 2022 19: 31
      Yes, I would leave the BTG, but I would advance in front with an entire division, try to stop a tank division deployed in battle formation in the field or steppe with the support of 2 regiments of fire support helicopters, and fighters above

      Easily.

    4. 0
      10 August 2022 19: 54
      But the Marine Corps needs to form divisions, we have many islands around strategic

      And how will you land divisions on these islands? Immediately the whole crowd? By what means? Or like Serpentine?
      And do you need a separate branch of the troops to jump from the boat to the shore. It's not a parachute. wink
  5. +3
    10 August 2022 06: 49
    Once upon a time, in each airborne division there was an artillery regiment, in each parachute regiment there was an artillery division, and the author took and took away artillery from the airborne forces. It's cool to write an article about something you have no idea about
    1. +7
      10 August 2022 11: 21
      Quote: Hanter
      Once upon a time, in each airborne division there was an artillery regiment, in each parachute regiment there was an artillery division, and the author took and took away artillery from the airborne forces.

      Was. But this artillery regiment was a "paper tiger". That is, on paper the word looked menacing, but in practice only 6-9 towed D-30s acted as artillery. And the rest of the artillery is a crowd of "Non" with their maximum range as much as 13 km.
      With air defense, by the way, the situation was the same: on paper there were divisions and batteries, but in practice they were armed with ZU-23 and MANPADS. This, excuse me, is the level of air defense of a battalion, not a regiment or division.
  6. +18
    10 August 2022 06: 50
    A key question arises (for me - quite a long time ago): if the Airborne Forces in their current form are not capable of solving combat missions for their intended purpose, namely - landing from aircraft into enemy territory, then why do they exist at all? A branch of the armed forces that is not able to solve its direct tasks under the conditions of modern databases must be completely reorganized. And the name of the Airborne Forces should go down in history. And it turns out, on paper there is, but in fact - no. This is approximately equivalent to the creation of a division of war elephants: they will look beautiful in parades, and useless suicide bombers in battle against tanks and machine guns with machine guns.
    1. +10
      10 August 2022 07: 00
      Quote: Grandfather is an amateur
      A branch of the armed forces that is not able to solve its direct tasks in the conditions of modern databases must be completely reorganized.

      (+) 100. Completely agree with you! Furthermore!! Marshals such as Rokossovsky and Zhukov, Shaposhnikov and Timoshenko agree with you. For at their insistence, by the decision of the State Defense Committee in 1942 and 1944. all airborne divisions were reorganized into guards rifle divisions.
      1. NKT
        +3
        10 August 2022 09: 11
        They did not refuse a mass landing, and even at the end of 1944, a Separate Airborne Army was created, which was then smoothly renamed into 9 GA.
        Throughout the Second World War, airborne formations were created, and then they were also reformatted into rifle divisions and brigades due to the fact that there were not enough people and, when a dangerous situation arose at the front, they were renamed rifle divisions, corps and thrown to stop this threat. So it was near Stalingrad, so it was on the Kursk Bulge, so it was during the Balaton defensive operation, but new airborne units were constantly created almost until the end of the Second World War and they were planned to be used for their intended purpose ..
    2. +3
      10 August 2022 08: 24
      For the fleet, the same questions are only there it is still more expensive ..
    3. +3
      10 August 2022 15: 14
      Let the name remain. The French have cuirassier regiments over there. Which have long been on tanks. But traditions, continuity and other morale.
      And the Americans have armored cavalry units ..
      1. +2
        10 August 2022 15: 31
        Quote: Tavrik
        Let the name remain.

        laughing Let ! You can even have the Life Guards Hussars. And let the uniform remain -))
        angry But the state Like the entire complex of weapons and combat training, it should be motorized rifle.
        1. 0
          12 August 2022 03: 49
          Will we entrust expeditionary tasks, the fight against insurgents, lightly armed units, and so on to heavy motorized riflemen?
          By the way, will we also convert the marines into heavy motorized rifles?
          It is better to leave the Airborne Forces, by analogy with the US Marine Corps, also relatively lightly armed (even their tanks were recently taken away from them). as a rapid reaction force. And for these purposes, both helicopter and parachute landing may be needed.
          1. 0
            12 August 2022 05: 10
            Quote: ratcatcher
            By the way, will we also convert the marines into heavy motorized rifles?

            That's just the Marine Corps in the USSR and now, in its place. What you need. No complaints. Neither in armament (MP is armed quite seriously), nor in tactics .. for nothing else.
            1. 0
              16 August 2022 03: 48
              And its number is 30 ... And they often shove it like assault units, which is also not right ...
      2. 0
        10 August 2022 17: 27
        Let the name remain.
        To nothing. We are not French, not English or American. We must call a spade a spade.
  7. +5
    10 August 2022 06: 56
    Quote: Saboteur_Navy
    I would transfer the Airborne Forces to the FSB


    And why the hell are they needed there, they have their own special forces, not a couple of the Airborne Forces. In general, large airborne assault units are probably the marines, i.e. there is support (during landing) and supply (after landing), though no one canceled the loss, but on the ground everything is more complicated. And then we will agree on the transfer of tank troops to the FSB.
    1. +2
      10 August 2022 11: 41
      Quote: user
      And then we will agree on the transfer of tank troops to the FSB.


      In the late 80s, three divisions were already transferred to the Office - the 48th and 75th motorized rifle divisions and the 103rd airborne division.
  8. +7
    10 August 2022 07: 19
    For reconnaissance and sabotage tasks in the RF Armed Forces, as many as 10 brigades of the Special Forces of the GRU and separately the Command of the MTR. It is also slightly redundant to sharpen the Airborne Forces for such tasks.
    Helicopter landings require changes in the OShS for the transportation of the Mi-8, because this is the most massive helicopter in the RF Armed Forces, i.e. foot companies / battalions, the company has more than 100 people, lightness is compensated by wearable (carried by buggies or motorcycles) heavy weapons.
    1. -4
      10 August 2022 07: 34
      What does redundant mean? MTR solves its own range of tasks behind enemy lines, the Airborne Forces solves its own range of tasks.
      1. +6
        10 August 2022 07: 40
        And why the hell for sabotage and reconnaissance of combat 4 divisions, 3 brigades and 1 (45th) special purpose?
        1. -3
          10 August 2022 08: 25
          Gostomel take ..
          1. +2
            10 August 2022 08: 29
            sabotage groups?
            1. 0
              10 August 2022 08: 36
              There is no longer a question of how, but for what?
              1. +2
                10 August 2022 09: 25
                Vertical reach. There, after all, the problem was not in the landing itself, but in the absence of a ground grouping, the offensive of which this landing was supposed to ensure.
                1. +2
                  10 August 2022 09: 32
                  So how do you think about it beforehand? Stick a compass into the map and describe a circle of 100 km and think about how to ensure the absence of MLRS, artillery, other heavy weapons and enemy troops in this circle .. Can't ensure this? then why the hell to land troops there?
                  1. +1
                    10 August 2022 09: 46
                    I don’t know modern standards, according to Soviet standards, the landing depth of a battalion is up to 30 km, a company is up to 10 km, the duration of independent actions is from 5-6 hours to a day for a battalion and up to 3 hours for a company.
                    Consumption of 122-mm RS for entrenched infantry for suppression (30% loss) - 240 per hectare (100x100 meters). For example, a platoon stronghold of 200x300 meters is 6 hectares. Does it surprise you why the artillery of the Armed Forces of Ukraine is working on civilian targets?
                    1. +2
                      10 August 2022 09: 58
                      Since Soviet times, a lot of water has flowed under the bridge .. one development of communications puts a bullet on the landings .. And if you remember the high-precision and UAVs, then holding some large object becomes very problematic .. then in Gostomel they saw, they took it, but could not use it for its intended purpose .. and why did they take it? We could ensure that there were no means of defeating the enemy in a circle of 100 km from the target of the operation, yes it washed away, but no, it was not worth starting .. Ground units even made their way there, but this did not help, because based on the means of destruction from the enemy, Kyiv would have to be taken, which no matter how it was possible, therefore, the landing was pointless in this current situation, but if at the top they counted on a pro-Russian coup in Kyiv and not participating in the database of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, then yes, a very promising operation would have turned out since there would have been an excellent base in a key place with a runway without restrictions..
                      1. 0
                        10 August 2022 10: 37
                        The norms were written for the conflict in Europe, Ukraine, even with the support of NATO, one can only dream of such indicators.
                        According to the standards of the 80s, an airborne assault brigade is up to 100 km, autonomy is up to 2 days, a battalion (landing, motorized rifle) is up to 50, a company is up to 12 km.
                        Yes, there are a lot of UAVs now, but in order to hit targets with them, the reconnoitered artillery of the Armed Forces of Ukraine must shoot for hours from one place. Consumption per 1 hectare of a strong point is 180-220 (152-122 mm) shells, i.e. for 1 strong point 6 hectares 1080-1320 shells (30% loss).
                        At the same time, the front was destroyed, a land group was breaking towards the landing force at a rate of 35-40 km / day.
                      2. +2
                        10 August 2022 11: 14
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        Yes, there are a lot of UAVs now, but in order to hit targets, the reconnoitered artillery of the Armed Forces of Ukraine must shoot for hours from one place

                        It's strange, but in the Krasnopol SVO one shot is one target .. The West is still better with this .. Your concepts are outdated by 40-50 years, guns are not cleaned with bricks ..
                      3. 0
                        10 August 2022 12: 13
                        And how many UAVs with LCD and guided projectiles with LGSN do the APU have?
                      4. +2
                        10 August 2022 15: 57
                        Judging by our losses in the first month of the NWO, 1351 people are quite enough ..
                  2. 0
                    10 August 2022 10: 07
                    We needed intermediate points from Belarus to Gostomel.
                    They were?
                    Here is the passage of fast land and tanks with heavy, etc.
          2. 0
            10 August 2022 08: 46
            Or help peacekeepers in Tskhinvali and defend the Prissky heights.
            It was not advertised, but it was the GRU special forces that played a big role there.
        2. -2
          10 August 2022 09: 15
          And the fact of the matter is that you need to know what we want to build, who is our enemy, what and whose interests the Armed Forces will protect. Just reform, for the sake of reform, this is nonsense.
  9. +2
    10 August 2022 07: 41
    It is not so important what they are called the Airborne Forces or Motorized Rifles, the main thing is their training and security. IMHO, the Airborne Forces in their current paradigm have become obsolete and need either a serious change or infusion into the regular infantry.
    The realities of modern warfare show that point impact, and not work on areas, has the greatest efficiency, even if one Krasnopol-type projectile costs a couple of lames, then its point use has much greater advantages than the work of the Grad installation or artillery platoon with howitzers, which plow hectares of land. But how to ensure this accuracy is still an open question, as it requires advanced intelligence and monitoring systems.
    Therefore, I think that the main direction will be the development of systems for identifying potential targets, ranking them in order of importance. How this will be achieved is a debatable question, either by purely technical means, or by people equipped with the appropriate tools, time will tell. Well, on the reverse side, camouflage and advanced techniques for misleading the enemy will also be developed.
    1. -5
      10 August 2022 11: 28
      Outdated? And then why have they been talking only about the Airborne Forces lately? Bone in someone's throat this kind of military?! Do not level the Airborne Forces and motorized riflemen (no offense to the latter). He himself served in the Airborne Forces. I know our training and the same motorized riflemen. They weren't even close! How many "hot" spots the special forces pulled out. The Airborne Forces are always the FIRST ON THE FRONT!
      1. +3
        10 August 2022 16: 27
        I wrote my post not to offend the landing force. Only if the motorized riflemen have training and security like the Airborne Forces, then what is the dispute about? The point is that in modern conditions, being thrown out with parachutes to the rear has become not comme il faut, in view of the development of air defense systems, for almost all potential opponents. And without this option, how then does the Airborne Forces differ from motorized riflemen?
  10. -1
    10 August 2022 08: 11
    As delivery vehicles for airborne infantry, it will be necessary to develop flying infantry fighting vehicles of the type shown in the Avatar movie. Flight at extremely low altitudes with enveloping the terrain, 4 semi-rotary propeller-fan units in annular channels with a gas drive from 2 main gas generators based on a gas turbine engine. There is a demo for the designers to think about, an ordinary helicopter or tiltrotor is unlikely to fit here.
  11. -5
    10 August 2022 08: 30
    And why so, only the Airborne Forces? Aerospace Forces also cannot fully (yet) fly over Ukraine. The fleet cannot fully sail and perform combat missions along the coast of Ukraine. We cannot land troops near Odessa. Tanks without infantry are nothing. So let's, in your opinion, reduce everything to simplification. To some kind of "unity". EVERY branch of the military is important! Yes. The methods of warfare are changing. You need to learn new methods. I do not argue.
    The question is - why did they take up the Airborne Forces so actively? What, there are no other branches of the military? Or what order? What, only the Airborne Forces participate in the NWO? Let me explain my interest in this topic. The paratrooper himself is retired.
    1. -1
      10 August 2022 09: 18
      The question is not biased, the Airborne Forces elite of the RF Armed Forces and how to further develop this type of troops will affect the country's defense capability.
    2. -1
      10 August 2022 09: 49
      This is both an order and an indestructible desire for simplification.
      1. 0
        10 August 2022 11: 00
        In a short period of time, this is the second article on this topic on VO. Almost in unison with the first. The march to Pristina has already been forgotten! And the Airborne Forces had many other operations (not so covered). That's the question - it's "w-w-w-" for a reason!
    3. +9
      10 August 2022 12: 58
      Quote: Yegres85101142
      The question is - why did they take up the Airborne Forces so actively? What, there are no other branches of the military? Or what order? What, only the Airborne Forces participate in the NWO?

      It’s just that for more than 50 years the Airborne Forces have been preparing for one war with perseverance worthy of better use, but they are really fighting for another. And even the lack of technical means of waging a war, for which they are preparing, does not stop the landing.
      As a result, we have 4 divisions and 3 brigades on cardboard vehicles, which over and over again are forced to go into battle in the same formation with motorized riflemen. Simply because there is no one else - the ground forces have been reduced, but the territories remain. And it turns out that the nearest ground reserve can arrive only after 4-5 days, or even more (like the 20th Motor Rifle Division on 08.08.08), so the Airborne Forces remain the only means of quickly strengthening the ground forces.
      But the trouble is that in its current state, the Airborne Forces, instead of "amplifiers", turn into "weakeners". Because for normal work, together with the infantry, they need armor, artillery and air defense. Which they demand and receive from whom? That's right, those whom they were supposed to strengthen.
      1. 0
        10 August 2022 14: 42
        It’s just that for more than 50 years the Airborne Forces have been preparing for one war with perseverance worthy of better use, but they are really fighting for another.

        Airborne only? As for me, so everything, well, or almost everything. Shaw across the river, that when providing fraternal assistance ... to friends ....
        1. +1
          10 August 2022 19: 10
          Quote: frog
          Airborne only? As for me, so everything, well, or almost everything. Shaw across the river, that when providing fraternal assistance ... to friends ....

          It's just that in the Airborne Forces this is expressed most clearly. If others at least in theory they can depict something with cash forces, then the Airborne Forces, when used for their main purpose, already at the stage of calculating the order of forces for the release, get a pure Imphal (there, when planning supply issues, due to the impossibility of solving them in cash, they decided to omit smile ).
          1. 0
            10 August 2022 19: 33
            Not, let's say, japas and logistics are a well-known epic. Delivering .... ICHSH, not only logistics .... But why should they be like them?
            What about theories..... Actually, for some time now this glorious trick has been indescribably delivering to me .... The way we really used the aircraft and what they were prepared for. If this term can be used .... This, of course, is for statistics, that is, for most units. there were quite trained places in the USSR Armed Forces, but, in general, feel
            At the same time, all the military ones, to which, one way or another, the union was related to this, sorry, paradigm, were related, like me, to the synthesis of superheavy ones .... I seemed to hear something wink Despite the fact that the experience seemed to be .... The result, not to mention .... about ...... the features of interaction with the selected brothers, as well as the features of the choice of these))) are known to us. Starting with Grechka's visit to the Egyptians a little before the six-day period, and his verdict love
            In general, according to the mind, it was necessary to have, sorry, two armies, no matter how stupid it sounded. Well, or somehow implement these ideas .... Otherwise, we have what we have ... However, this is a separate conversation and, apparently, not here hi
            1. +2
              10 August 2022 19: 45
              Quote: frog
              At the same time, all the combat ones, to which, one way or another, the union was related to this, sorry, paradigm, were related, like me, to the synthesis of superheavy ....

              And this is a well-known joke - preparation for the last war.
              The USSR was preparing the Armed Forces for a big war with NATO or China, WWII in a new way. But in fact, I had to fight in small wars.
              Then the concept changed, and the RF Armed Forces (at least ground troops) began to sharpen for local conflicts. And I had to fight like an adult - with an army trained and supplied by the very "aggressive militaries of the NATO bloc."
              1. 0
                10 August 2022 20: 02
                Probably, one can say so ... But, in fact, the Union had to prepare one hell of a paradigm, taking into account the same ... clients))) For whom neither the equipment was particularly suitable, nor the training .... About now - humbly and mournfully keep silent ....
  12. +4
    10 August 2022 08: 47
    Quote: Boris55
    Remember before that in the Crimea.

    Well, yes, it's good to fly where they don't shoot.
  13. +2
    10 August 2022 09: 04
    1. The Airborne Forces in conjunction with the VTA for landing behind enemy lines is an anachronism in its purest form. This conclusion was reached back in 1984 after the "Shield" and "West-84" exercises.
    2. A variant of a quick jump to a minimum, relatively, distance to the line of contact with the enemy and the unloading of well-equipped mobile groups is possible. Fortunately, our transport aircraft allow us to land on the ground and roads (checked repeatedly).
    3. 3-5 minutes are enough for 10-15 aircraft to unload 200 people with light equipment, and this may already be enough force to break through in a certain area.
    1. 0
      10 August 2022 09: 29
      Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Afghanistan, Kazakhstan.
      Imagine that the unrest in Kazakhstan did not start in January, but now.
      1. 0
        10 August 2022 09: 33
        And why these listings? Where from all of the above was the landing of the Airborne Forces used?
        1. 0
          10 August 2022 09: 35
          Moreover, the Airborne Forces are not only parachute, but also landing troops.
          1. -1
            10 August 2022 09: 39
            And what did I write about or by?
            1. +1
              10 August 2022 09: 54
              Past what? If the protesters block the runway (they tried in Kazakhstan)? To evaluate a section of the highway or some kind of platform, you also need to walk along it with your legs.
              1. -1
                10 August 2022 12: 12
                In war, as in war. Let's say the suitability of the highway can be assessed in one pass at low altitude. And the field is enough to inspect any car to drive through it.
                1. -1
                  10 August 2022 12: 59
                  It is impossible, the surface should be, if possible, horizontal, slopes are allowed, without springboards and steps no more than 0,01-0,02 with a length of at least 100 meters. First, they select according to maps (airbrush descriptions), then the descriptions are clarified from aircraft, then reconnaissance groups work. It is advisable to do such work in advance, why, in fact, they are trying to capture the airfield.
                  1. -1
                    10 August 2022 13: 22
                    It is clear with you - theorist. If they were flying, they would argue differently, and if they were also in combat conditions, then ...
                    1. 0
                      10 August 2022 13: 53
                      With whom do I have the honor of speaking? Did you organize a field airfield? When and where?
                      1. -1
                        10 August 2022 16: 27
                        I flew from unpaved airfields in Africa and Siberia in a large plane, in interesting conditions.
                      2. -1
                        10 August 2022 18: 50
                        Okay, let's assume that the external examination will suffice. Airplanes have arrived, cars or a babai with a machine gun are driving on the site under the landing site. What to do?
                      3. -3
                        10 August 2022 21: 52
                        The whole calculation is for surprise, there is no other way. Let's say, 20-30 km from the collision line. Unloading by landing method conveyor 5 planes in 20 min. The enemy will not have time to react, and 200-300 additional people with breakthrough equipment are a good help.
              2. +5
                10 August 2022 13: 02
                Quote: strannik1985
                Past what? If the protesters block the runway (they tried in Kazakhstan)? To evaluate a section of the highway or some kind of platform, you also need to walk along it with your legs.

                To do this, one or two assault paratrooper battalions with light equipment can be left in the airborne division to capture airfields and landing sites in general. To them - a mobile airfield complex (drive, lighting, ATC). The rest - under landing landing.
                1. 0
                  10 August 2022 14: 29
                  The rest - under landing landing.

                  What about the meaning? Ersatz infantry to disperse riots. Then the staff was like the Soviet DShV, companies of 110 people, a lot of heavy weapons (mortar platoon, grenade launcher and anti-tank squads), transporters like Krak. In the non-landing group MRAP Typhoon. There are helicopters and the opportunity - they conduct TakVD, no - the second echelon in the infantry
                  1. +2
                    10 August 2022 19: 05
                    Quote: strannik1985
                    What about the meaning? Ersatz infantry to disperse riots.

                    Capturing landing sites.
                    Armament and equipment - parachute-borne, but with the expectation of the real capabilities of the VTA. You can at least give "Nona" - if only the cash sides of the VTA could throw out the battalion with equipment.
                    Quote: strannik1985
                    There are helicopters and the opportunity - they conduct TakVD, no - the second echelon in the infantry

                    Helicopters are not about airborne forces. Helicopters are for the Airborne Forces. And I wrote about the paratrooper battalion in the airborne forces, acting in the interests of the division.
                    In short, a return to the origins, when the Airborne Forces had parachute and airborne (in our times - airmobile) units in the formations of the Airborne Forces.
                    1. 0
                      10 August 2022 20: 59
                      Capturing landing sites.

                      They will carry out foot airborne control, only add a landing from helicopters to the airborne assault.
                      Helicopters are for the Airborne Forces.

                      Keeping 4 divisions of idlers for operations that may not exist at all for a decade is a bit wasteful, don't you think?
                      1. 0
                        11 August 2022 09: 53
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        Keeping 4 divisions of idlers for operations that may not exist at all for a decade is a bit wasteful, don't you think?

                        Where did I suggest this? belay
                        On the contrary, I suggested adapting the airborne division to current realities: leaving 1-2 parachute landing battalions, and reorganizing the rest for landing landing (but without fanaticism - so that the BTA could transfer them). As a result, get airmobile forces to reinforce infantry in threatened areas with more protected equipment, but at the same time retain the ability to land on enemy-controlled territory (in low-intensity conflicts).
                        It’s just that helicopters don’t reach everywhere.
      2. 0
        11 August 2022 13: 44
        For these tasks, the army is not needed at all, this is the topic of the Russian Guard, trained to resist unrest and all kinds of uprisings. Everyone must do their job.
  14. +6
    10 August 2022 10: 54
    Actually, the Airborne Forces near Kyiv, Gostomel, Chenobyl ... they completed their task - they captured bridgeheads, airfields ... Then they showed a bunch of prisoners of the highest officers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, with Russian dry. rations. Most likely they captured the ZKP (spare command post) But then the infantry was supposed to work. But it worked out, as always. The units of the Airborne Forces and special forces of Russia, the Armed Forces of Ukraine were stupidly shot by drones and artillery. And there was no answer. When calling for fire support helicopters, while they took to the air and flew from the territory of Belarus, the artillery of the Armed Forces of Ukraine left their firing positions and hid in the forests. We must pay tribute to the Armed Forces of Ukraine, they, under the leadership of the Americans (British), were able to organize an effective "meeting" of our units, in simple terms - they were waiting for us there. Therefore, we had to withdraw our troops, explaining it as a "gesture of good will." But here there are more questions not for the Airborne Forces (they fulfilled their task and not badly), but for the higher-ranking leadership, those who planned and calculated the forces and means.
    1. +4
      10 August 2022 12: 08
      The question was initially not about the capabilities of the Airborne Forces, but about the use of parachute landing in the rear of the enemy from BTA aircraft.
      1. 0
        10 August 2022 12: 39
        RAP is also an element of education and cohesion of the unit. I agree that the Airborne Forces are light infantry, with the possibility of landing using parachutes or landing method.
      2. 0
        24 August 2022 07: 37
        The question was initially not about the capabilities of the Airborne Forces, but about the use of parachute landing in the rear of the enemy from BTA aircraft.


        Well, the Germans answered this question after the capture of Crete. The loss of transport boards was more than 300 units, which was the annual production of such aircraft in Germany at that time, and after such results, no one else did this kind of stupidity. And our generals probably never studied the history of operations of this kind, it seems that until this kind of domestic experience is gained, with comparable losses, conclusions will be drawn.
  15. +2
    10 August 2022 11: 08
    feel
    Why should the "works" of Mitrofanov AKA "turbine in the butt, KAZ on the ship" be printed at all?

    It's getting worse.

    The most promising and effective scenario for the use of airborne forces will be the use of the Airborne Forces as airborne sabotage and reconnaissance groups (DRGs), used on a significant scale.


    military equipment of the Airborne Forces must also be adapted for the chosen tactics of use - armored airborne combat vehicles (BMD), not to mention something heavier, do not belong here. Perhaps the solution will be some kind of light and mobile off-road vehicles, something like buggies, ATVs or even motorcycles.


    And now, dear audience, imagine this epic ride on buggies and ATVs, for example, in Ukraine. Where will it end? That's right, at the first Troshnik with a Maxim machine gun (well, with the end of the wearable ammo at the landing).
    There is a process of "weighting" the landing force and marines, in terms of "giving" (still in insufficient quantities, IMHO) heavy equipment (tanks, artillery), and not transplanting from "aluminum tanks" to ATVs.

    But reality is not a decree for Mitrofanov.
    1. +1
      10 August 2022 12: 56
      The fact is that for each problem you need a certain tool. You cannot do the work of an electrician with plumbing tools and vice versa. You want a troop squad, you have to provide it with light cars, buggies and ATVs. But these tools serve only one purpose - to make the paratroopers move after launch. If you are using a paratrooper unit as mechanized infantry, it must have the same equipment as other motorized units. The same problem arose with the Marines and their landing craft in Iraq. After the 2003 invasion of Iraq, AAV-7A1s were criticized for their poor crew and passenger protection compared to other vehicles. But they were not born to be well protected vehicles.
      1. +1
        10 August 2022 13: 14
        You want a troop squad, you have to provide it with light cars, buggies and ATVs.
        this is for Mitrofanov, he wants so much (and also attach KAZ to the ship from anti-ship missiles and attach something "on strings" to the submarine as a remedy for torpedoes).

        But do not confuse the SAS / SEAL of the times of the war with Iraq with the RF Armed Forces of the times "now and here."
        1. +4
          10 August 2022 13: 18
          Obviously, it's hard for me to make myself understand in translation. If you use Russian paratrooper units in Ukraine as motorized infantry units, then in my opinion they should be equipped, just like other motorized infantry units.
  16. +1
    10 August 2022 11: 09
    crying
    "I'll just leave it here"
    "Thinking acquires pathological features:
    reasoning - meaningless reasoning and sophistication;
    slippage - logically correct reasoning breaks off and suddenly switches to another topic, changing direction;
    paralogism - the conclusion does not follow from previous reasoning;
    reliance on a weak sign - secondary signs are used in the conclusion. not allowing to come to this conclusion within the framework of normal logic
    ."

    Someone, admins, pass Mitrofanov's work into the hands of specialists.
    Once again, it's getting worse.
    You shouldn't do that to a person.
  17. +9
    10 August 2022 11: 41
    DRG can be used when the front is mobile, supply routes are poorly covered, the population is at least neutral, and terrain conditions allow the group to move covertly. The enemy must be weaker. Classical drgs were used by the Germans in Europe in 40, in the USSR in 41 and 42. In the case when the opponent’s soldiers clearly followed the charter, the Fireburgers suffered losses and did not achieve their goals, but where the Belgians or our cyrics interpreted their duties in a broader sense, slept, thought, etc., then there was success. Maykop 1942 example.
    In 44, when the Germans used their DRGs in the Ardennes, everything instantly ended with an epic fail. DRG is very mysterious and beautiful, but of little use in a full-fledged conflict.
    Well, the avatar mixed intelligence and sabotage into a bunch. These are completely different dishes. the scout quietly came, looked and quietly left, this is precisely his task .. You can be a cool rambo with an ion blaster and spaceship support, but if the shepherd boy saw you or you foolishly took off the sucker sentry, then a company of evil units will instantly arrive and you, having killed a million people from a machine gun to the head, will not complete the task, but will go to the places of eternal hunting.
    what to do with the Airborne Forces in their current format is not a task for our minds. It is clear that they were being prepared for a completely different war, hence the strange technique in the conditions of the massive use of tanks and howitzers. The saturation of the Armed Forces of Ukraine with anti-tank weapons, and very good ones, the presence of tanks and rocket launchers led to completely unjustified losses. The heroism of the paratroopers was the result of erroneous decisions on their use, on equipping with inappropriate equipment and underestimating the enemy.
    The situation with Markt Garden was repeated. Against howitzers, determination and the ability to run well and shoot light weapons help very little.
    Everyone was preparing for counter-guerrilla wars: Vietnam, Algeria, Afghanistan, Syria, the occupation of Iraq, a sluggish suffocation with the Kurds, etc. But there are two main components: 1. we have a plane, but they don’t have 2. We have a lot of howitzers, but they don’t. But the Armed Forces of Ukraine have both, and everything went wrong.
    Well, and most importantly: This is how to start revising the concept of the Airborne Forces or the Marine Corps, posing one question - WHY EVERYONE NEED A PARACHUTE ?! no one can. This requires a second Taburetkin.
    1. +1
      10 August 2022 12: 33
      I have read your speech and agree with what you wrote.
  18. -4
    10 August 2022 12: 20
    In short, another anti-landing article. This is without expressions. Because the main message - to destroy is carefully puttied and smeared, sort of like for objectivity, ....... .
    Nothing new except being shot down in the air, they won’t fly, ....... . There are a lot of equipment and tactics in the Airborne Forces and VTA that are not covered, but they are. Previously, they were silent about this, but now God himself ordered. The less the enemy knows, the sweeter his dreams. Kazakhstan events already forgotten? Someone got a good punch in the nose. And a long time ago there were Czechoslovak events. And they did it. Our country is very large and only the Military Transport Aviation and Airborne Forces can transfer from west to east in a few hours. As you might guess over our country, no one will knock down on our sites, and such sites exist and are ready to accept a mass landing within a few hours. I served in the VTA, I have an idea on the issue. P/S. How many people know what the abbreviation OKDO stands for and what tasks they performed?
    1. +1
      10 August 2022 12: 47
      The question is not in the Airborne Forces, but in the need for large detachments of all those trained in parachuting.
    2. +2
      10 August 2022 12: 48
      Answer one question - pliz! When was the last time an amphibious landing (regiment, battalion) was carried out by parachute in a military conflict in the presence of both opposing sides of the air force and air defense (dshk does not count).?????
  19. +1
    10 August 2022 12: 31
    This issue is also being discussed in the West. Are parachute chairs still relevant????? In my opinion, large units of paratroopers are no longer needed. Against organized armies, we will never see mass air raids, it will be a massacre. Many respond by hinting at the need for a paratrooper spirit. But the problem is, what's the point of teaching so many men, at great expense, to skydive when they'll never jump. The spirit of a paratrooper, fierce light infantry can be obtained even without preparation for launch. So the paratroopers serve YES, but not en masse. Actually, the author is talking about paratroopers being used as DRGs, but in this case, you have to use the HALO launch, and it is difficult for me to use large masses of people. If the landing takes place from a helicopter, then what is the point of launching large masses from the air????
    We need light infantry, well trained, motivated and quickly transported, but that this requires the qualifications of paratroopers, I have doubts.
  20. +3
    10 August 2022 12: 48
    In the entire history of wars (since the late 1930s), there are only a few examples of the effective combat use of the Airborne Forces. But you can't do without infantry. The cost of training and maintaining a paratrooper is significantly higher than that of training an infantryman. Landing cannot replace infantry. (Another thing is special forces.)
    Questions: what is the dressing of the game, and is the game worth the candle?
    1. 0
      10 August 2022 15: 15
      If you pick up the story with paratroopers, then in World War II:
      1. Denmark, Norway - landed by 1 company by parachute. Denmark Bridges over Storstremmen, - the guards fled, in Norway, the Sola airfield, a tough battle (from the point of view of Norwegian history) - 4 killed. landing near Narvik - 2 companies, used to reinforce the encircled rangers.
      2 .. the capture of Fort Eben-Emael - although the landing was carried out only by gliders. - a brilliant result, only 6 killed, and the fort fell.
      3. Crete - on the first day, the Germans landed 11 people by parachute and gliders, by the end of the day 000 soldiers remained in the ranks. The island was taken because of the high fighting qualities of the Germans and the inadequate command of the gentlemen .. After the victory, Adik presented all the survivors with the inscription Crete on the sleeve of his uniform and banned landings altogether. In the future, the paratroopers were used as infantry and came to a natural zeroing. Seelow heights were passed through the positions of paratroopers.
      .four. Vyazma - the landing of about 4 paratroopers, about 10 of them were able to join the KK. General Belov. the landing was unsuccessful, a large spread, the loss of a larger number of cargoes, the loss of command during the landing. the paratroopers fought with Belov and pulled back up to 000 divisions. the task of capturing communications was not completed.
      5. 4200 fighters landed by parachute, 692 paratroopers were lost on the first day, another 209 were captured. the rest of the groups were dispersed and left to join the partisans.
      In the Red Army, paratroopers were mainly used as guards infantry.
      6. Normandy - on the whole, the successful use of 2 divisions that landed by parachute and glider method, were able to complete part of the tasks, capturing bridges, destroying bridges, etc. losses: 1.003 killed, 2.657 captured, 4.490 missing out of 17 l / s paratroopers.
      7. Market (Holland): an epic battle of Anglo, Polish and American paratroopers in 44 with the aim of "opening the road to Berlin." In total, 34 soldiers and officers, 876 artillery pieces, and 568 vehicles were landed in the rear of the Hans. two strategic bridges were captured, but they could not hold the key bridge in Arnhem. The total losses were more than 1926%. The Germans lost only 50 killed and wounded. even in England is seen as a strategic defeat.
      Draw your own conclusions
      1. 0
        10 August 2022 16: 56
        All right. One question - where does the info about the paratroopers on the Seelow Heights come from?
        1. +1
          11 August 2022 13: 44
          "On the left flank of the 11th Corps, the 9th Airborne Division of General Bruno Brauer was destroyed. The personnel of the 9th Airborne Division: of the nine thousand German paratroopers who took up defense on the Seelow Heights, only 500 people escaped back to Berlin, which subsequently in full force destroyed during the storming of Berlin.
          On April 19, the SS reconnaissance battalion surrounded the retreating soldiers of the defeated 9th parachute regiment of the Wehrmacht in front of Berlin and, disarming them by deceit, shot everyone, including the seriously wounded.

          "1945. The last circle of hell. The flag over the Reichstag" Isaev A.
          1. 0
            11 August 2022 18: 09
            I am interested in the topic of the capture of Berlin.
            Thanks for filling in the gap.
  21. -3
    10 August 2022 12: 54
    Conclusions
    Beautiful and spectacular massive airborne assaults, most likely, will remain only in feature films, perhaps we will still see them in exercises (which will have no practical meaning).

    Strangely, there is no advice or concern about the condition of the motorized rifle units, which will be more numerous than the Airborne Forces, but, as they say, only the lazy does not discuss whether we need the Airborne Forces.
    Why? Maybe because not a single army in the world has reached the level of our Airborne Forces yet, both in terms of training, numbers, and quality of equipment for landing.

    Afghanistan, Chechnya - these are military operations against militants who used guerrilla tactics, and it is impossible to judge here by the categories of a large-scale war.
    Ukraine, a "special operation", has already drawn conclusions ... Maybe you need to understand that the Airborne Forces may first of all be required in a global war, from which no one is immune. Secondly, it should be noted that the Airborne Forces have become a plug in all holes, in many ways our units are used for other purposes, like ordinary motorized infantry. Naturally, in this case, they lose all the advantages, and receive only disadvantages from the lack of heavy equipment.

    The last thing that everyone is so concerned about is the need or uselessness of the Airborne Forces, maybe our sworn friends really need Russia to lose what it can rightly be proud of, what it has pulled far ahead of the West, it is necessary to destroy our landing troops? They don't have the Airborne Forces like we do, we don't have the Marine Corps like the US does. So that?

    Maybe it's enough to want already, "what's best", the Airborne Forces, like nuclear missiles (which no one has yet used), must be, must be ready, and the enemy must know this. For me, it would be more logical not to break up the Airborne Forces, under good pretexts and various reasons, but, in general, to create a single corps of landing troops, which would also include the marines. With our open spaces and disturbing borders, we will always need the Airborne Forces.
    1. +1
      10 August 2022 13: 10
      I see that the question is always misunderstood. The question is not whether light infantry is needed, which can be transferred by air or helicopters. The question is whether it is necessary to have large formations of troops trained in parachute launches, since massive air raids are a thing of the past. In short, there are few real paratroopers and more light infantry that can be transported quickly without the qualifications of paratroopers.
    2. +2
      10 August 2022 13: 23
      However, even in the US, there is debate about the role of the Marine Corps and what changes are needed. This does not mean the destruction of the marines or airborne units, but only their adaptation to today's needs. The marines abandoned the tanks, believing that they do not fulfill their role, and the paratrooper cannot give up his parachute?????
  22. +1
    10 August 2022 14: 28
    wassat I like this place the most:
    Why not do this job with aircraft and long-range precision weapons?
    The problem is that the stocks of long-range cruise and aeroballistic missiles are limited, spending them on every bridge, every substation is too much of a luxury.

    wassat Of course! People in our country in bulk - nowhere to go! Not like missiles ... Let them destroy infrastructure instead of missiles ... hand-to-hand ...
    Bravo, author! Films about Soviet paratroopers sit in your subconscious and control your thinking ... Even if you understand that this is ridiculous ...
  23. -1
    10 August 2022 14: 56
    Some write that the Airborne Forces have cardboard equipment, I don’t see the difference between the BMD and the BMP, in addition there is Nona and the proven D30, and it’s completely sweet octopus SD, it seems to me that the service life in these troops is the same as in the Marine Corps you need to do 2 years as before, and only then with those who wish to conclude contracts
    1. +1
      10 August 2022 16: 58
      Nona is a thing, but mainly due to her universal gun. In Chechnya, she showed herself well.
    2. -1
      10 August 2022 19: 14
      2 Dmitry Krasikov
      in vain. The armor of the BMP 1/2 is decent enough - it protects itself from 7.62 and non-armor-piercing 12.7 mm bullets even from the side. What can not be said about armoring BMD 1/2 ... And how this lumeli BMD burns! Well, the conditions for landing in BMP and BMD are incomparable (albeit crappy everywhere wassat ). - Why did the paratroopers need a BM capable of transporting troops in the reserved space? - Riddles in the dark...
  24. +2
    10 August 2022 15: 54
    There is one niche for which I would leave exercises and training for massive parachute landing in the training program for airborne soldiers. This is when the Airborne Forces are used as a means of quickly strengthening friendly troops in the event of serious losses. The enemy is advancing, he sees that the front will soon break through, and then the landing party comes to his aid (which does not land over the battlefield, but several kilometers from the front line) and dramatically changes the balance of forces on the battlefield. All the same, NE reserves can be detected and calculated when planning and attacking. But the strength of the landing force and the time of its arrival cannot be known when planning an attack.
    For all other cases, a transition to a "motorized rifle scheme" is really necessary. THOSE. The Airborne Forces should become airborne troops, move over great distances (which is critical for our country) and, with a minimum of time to prepare, begin to participate in hostilities. Completely update the idea of ​​​​helicopter landing. Modernize equipment under the new rules. Increase the number of high-precision weapons in the Airborne Forces. To work out new tactics of a combined ground-air attack (when the target is simultaneously attacked both through helicopter landing and through ground landing with heavy armored vehicles).
    1. -1
      10 August 2022 18: 08
      and then a landing party comes to his aid (which is landed not over the battlefield, but a few km from the front line)

      For unsuppressed air defense, your few kilometers of weather will absolutely not play.
      1. 0
        10 August 2022 22: 59
        I said that to help MY parts. Accordingly, landing from YOUR side of the front.
        1. 0
          11 August 2022 09: 00
          AND? A few kilometers from YOUR front line - this, imagine, within the reach of modern missiles with unsuppressed enemy air defense ..
  25. +1
    10 August 2022 16: 05
    Landing operations have always been aimed at radically changing the ongoing battles. They were given a special role in the theater of operations, no one disputes that it is difficult to do this now. For this, combined arms logistics exist. Undoubtedly, with the existence of the Center-Control problem, they are difficult to use. For this, there are problem solving. Without it, nowhere.
  26. +7
    10 August 2022 16: 09
    Quote: Per se.
    They don't have the Airborne Forces like we do, we don't have the Marine Corps like the US does. So that?

    We must develop the cavalry! belay
    1. No analogues!
    2. Retains mobility even when fuel depots are destroyed.
    3. You can put machine guns and anti-tank systems on carts. Firepower + mobility in the absence of fuel and lubricants. And you can launch light UAVs.
    4. Support for a domestic manufacturer of horse harness (it is possible to reprofil the developers of parachutes, who will be left without orders after the cancellation of parachute training) and horse breeding.
    5. Does not require expensive support, such as BTA. But at the same time, horses and carts comply with the BTA loading format.
    6. High permeability. You can consider special forces mules.
    7. High stealth. The horse, unlike the car and the ATV, is able to execute the command "lay down".
    8. High protection of the horse from the electro-magnetic impulse.
    9. High maintainability of carts and harnesses.
    10. Does not require special training of drivers.
    11. They look beautiful in parades.
    1. +2
      10 August 2022 16: 11
      Moldavian cavalry on sheep from this series, I will tell you a terrible thing.
  27. +2
    10 August 2022 17: 42
    the author started for health but came to the middle for peace. on the one hand, it is already clear that the airborne forces are an irrational use of the best human resource. on the other hand, an attempt to turn them into some kind of "ddrg" - only to strengthen the voiced shortcomings. these ddrgs will catch and kill in the rear even easier than the current paratroopers. they have even less equipment and striking power is even lower. despite the fact that the preparation of a saboteur is even more difficult and expensive. in general, such airborne forces are obtained in a square, with shortcomings in a square.
    I agree about air mobility. the only rational use of the airborne forces in our time is the rapid transfer by aircraft, by landing method, to threatened areas thousands of kilometers away. say, to the Far East or to Central Asia. plus tactical landing by helicopters. but the parachutes should be taken away and thrown away.
    Well, the big question is whether to keep 45 thousand airborne forces with ground forces of 280 thousand. More precisely, it’s not a question anymore.
  28. +1
    10 August 2022 17: 59
    Well, yes ... The time is coming for universal "heavy" units and "jaeger" special forces with light but effective weapons. The units of the MSBR or MSD will obviously arm themselves along two "vectors". Powerful "wearable" means, including mortars and a set of heavy weapons. Such equipment will help ensure the transfer of "lightweight" parts of motorized rifles without heavy weapons along the front to enhance defensive capabilities. In strategic terms, in the context of the prevalence of the contract component, which means the impossibility of mass concentration at all frontiers, this will be a quick transfer of drugs to ready-made BKhVT on other theaters.
  29. 0
    10 August 2022 18: 24
    Only thanks to the Airborne Forces could the NWO begin. Alas, combined arms units are not able to perform tasks in the required volume. their level of training is "window dressing", which is what the VS are sick with. Senior bosses have long become businessmen and have forgotten about the BP, only reports and a photo report. The Airborne Forces are 80% contract soldiers, not a single branch of the military can boast of this (except for special forces). Yes, lack of staffing. The Airborne Forces are effective when the ENTIRE ARMY is fighting !!! They fulfilled their tasks, only there was no one to develop success. And the Airborne Forces are not a "steel fist". We don’t take the Russian Guard seriously in such databases at all. The Airborne Forces have tasks: "Reconnaissance-strike actions in a reconnaissance detachment and mixed. so. gr. aviation", "Air mobile. blocking", "Air-raid. action", "Air-assault. attack", etc. d. But since others cannot fulfill their own, the Airborne Forces have to commit Heroism on the moral and strong-willed. The problem of errors in planning, organizing interaction and management, and this is to the General Staff. Yes, maybe the equipment no longer needs to be parachuted. But parachute landing should remain as an element of moral and psychological preparation. Glory to the Airborne Forces!!!
  30. +2
    10 August 2022 19: 53
    in the context of the "operation dill" concept, the airborne forces are not needed in principle, i.e. could be used partially as a DRG, and the entire bulk needs to be "retrained" into assault units ...
    there are solid cities to the western border - they need to be stormed, they are unlikely to be surrendered ...
    during the Second World War, consolidated units were created to storm cities ...
    there were assault brigades in the SA, although in the 70s they were not much different from the infantry and they were not trained in "urban battles" ...
    in the 80s they were transferred to the subordination of the Airborne Forces ... well, there the fairy tales ended ... capitalism came ...
    everything is done after the fact...
    after Chechnya, mountain brigades were revived ...
    after dill, they will probably create assault ...
    and these regiment-level landings and the dumping of equipment - well, maybe the Papuans are impressed ...
    to solve possible problems of this kind, you can keep a brigade / airborne division - this will be enough, most likely ...
    it is necessary to be able to fight in the fields, sands, mountains, forests, cities ...
    this is enough for us, and in the "district" ...
  31. -1
    10 August 2022 20: 34
    It seems to me that a classic landing is needed: the tasks that he solved have not disappeared. It is not parachutes that need to be taken away, but conditions must be created under which the landing force will be able to solve its tasks: to strengthen aviation, for example, which will suppress all threats to the landing force in the landing area. In addition, you can land troops in your rear to quickly support the unit in a difficult situation. Remember how the spooks beat our frontier post all day long until reinforcements arrived? Or a company in Chechnya, which held the height. Aviation and landing (and no one but them) can make sure that this does not happen again. Is BMD armor weak? So drop the quick-mount armor modules on the next platform. Does Nona hit only 13 km? And then aviation and UAVs should contribute. It’s cool to include aviation in the Airborne Forces, but it’s definitely necessary to attach the landing force.
  32. +3
    10 August 2022 21: 25
    many copies in the comments are broken due to one false formula

    airborne = airmobile = parachute

    Only the last part, parachute landing, is outdated in it. Airmobile troops are needed, capable of rapid and long-range deployment. Landing - no doubt, too. But these landings should not be parachute, this does not work today.

    But even parachute landing is possible, but as a tool for MTR, a covert landing of small DRGs. Mass paratroopers are a thing of the past, like cavalry.
    1. -1
      11 August 2022 13: 04
      I appreciated your ability to summarize the question well. Thank you. good
  33. -1
    10 August 2022 22: 18
    in reality, there will always be a reason why the advance of ground units will stop or be delayed, as a result of which the landing will go to "slaughter".
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++
    Which is exactly what happened when the Allies parachuted into Arnhem in 1944. German tank formations rolled the paratroopers into asphalt, as General Patton's tank and mechanized formations got stuck in the defense of the German infantry.
    1. -1
      11 August 2022 19: 04
      Stuck part of the 30th British Army Corps, Lieutenant General Brian Horrocks. And Patton was stuck at the time at the Moselle in France.
  34. 0
    10 August 2022 22: 28
    I have always been tormented by vague doubts: will NATO allow the passage of several dozen and even more than a hundred clumsy transport aircraft in its relatively deep rear? Because everything looked impressive and beautiful during the exercises, but it would be enough for one or two units of enemy fighters to approach the launch range of at least medium-range missiles and 6-8 transport workers would find their end with all the personnel or equipment inside them.
    I immediately remembered how effectively an avalanche of BT light tanks swept at the Kyiv maneuvers of 1935, and how effectively these avalanches of BTs were mowed down by German 37-mm anti-tank guns in 1941.
  35. 0
    10 August 2022 23: 20
    Actually, nothing new. The limit of possibilities is the landing, the capture of a bridgehead (bridge, airfield) and a short wait for the main troops to break through from the outside. Very short (a day or two), then the enemy will pull up heavy weapons and make minced meat out of them. Gostomel is a prime example
  36. +1
    11 August 2022 12: 21
    The need for the evolution of weapons and tactics of the airborne troops as a result of the special operation in Ukraine
    The conclusion suggests itself that under the described conditions, the Airborne Forces can be used in conjunction with support units, including the National Guard, only in the case of "quick" military-police operations abroad, but not in a full-fledged war.
    1. +1
      18 August 2022 18: 12
      It was clear for a long time, but the inertia of praising and beating with heels in the chest, they say, we are so tough that we smash all the tanks and infantry fighting vehicles / armored personnel carriers of the adversary with our fists, did not allow us to take a sober look at the situation.
  37. 0
    11 August 2022 19: 40
    that's right, BUT here's a specific case - unrest in Kazakhstan. I understand that this is not the topic of the Airborne Forces, but there is a place for airmobile forces in the system. namely AERO and MOBILE. the name may be different, rapid reaction forces, airborne forces, airmobile ..
  38. 0
    12 August 2022 15: 32
    Also, the Airborne Forces can quickly reinforce the ground forces in the chosen direction in the event of an attack by superior enemy forces, ensuring superiority in manpower and equipment, disrupting the enemy’s offensive

    The author contradicts himself. At the beginning of the article, he denies the possibility of the Airborne Forces to resist the enemy on the defensive and disperses them to the rear in the form of a DRG, and at the end puts them on the defensive.
    First, denying the possibility of light infantry to stay on the defensive, one should look at the actions of the Ukrainians in Mariupol.
    Secondly, when proposing to throw DRGs in the rear, it is necessary to provide for their return. The method of mass casting and return proposed by the author - who can do it as best as he can - is to send troops to slaughter.
    The correct use of the DRG is the covert delivery of a small number of groups for the purpose of reconnaissance, sabotage on communications and their covert return.
    The correct use of the landing force is the deployment of relatively small units to capture strategic objects (mainly transport hubs) in the direction of attack of the ground forces after they break through the enemy’s defenses in order to block his movement, the approach of reinforcements and supplies. That is, the isolation of the combat area. Moreover, actions in the interests of the advancing troops, that is, in full cooperation with them in one circuit. Of the weapons - only manually controlled, fire support - by artillery of the advancing troops, respectively, the throwing range is the effective range of artillery support.
  39. 0
    12 September 2022 04: 24
    the author is an idiot...