Naval Doctrine of Russia: Translation in Meaning and Money

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Well, there is something to think about and something to discuss. The new Naval Doctrine has finally appeared, as a holiday gift from the president. Unlike the Aerospace Forces and the Ground Forces, the naval component was born for a long time. Apparently, they could not clearly formulate specific goals and objectives before fleet in the context of its revival.



The revival of the Russian fleet is generally a separate sore subject, therefore we will not touch it for now, but we will begin our conversation with wording. After all, it is in them that the whole idea of ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXbusing the fleet in future periods is hidden, and hence the development of it.

I'll start with what I liked. I liked the emergence of the concept of "national interests in the oceans." This is great, because if you look at previous documents, there were absolutely no specifics. Now there is and it really pleases.

Moreover, these same national interests are clearly tied to geographical areas and divided into three groups: vital, important and all the rest (others according to the wording).

This happened to us for the first time, so I will analyze in more detail.

In general, national interests extend to the entire World Ocean and the Caspian Sea to boot. They may change depending on the world situation, but initially they are based on the principles and norms of international law, international treaties, taking into account the sovereignty and national interests of other states.

Translation: we are ready to defend specific goals and objectives, specific relations with other allied countries, more aggressively and effectively than is provided for by our very colloidal diplomatic doctrine. The external diplomatic principles of our country, unfortunately, are very vague, something like "for all the good against all the bad."

Here everything becomes clear: if we have a country with which allied relations have been established, then in the event of a conflict between this country and third countries, Russia can come to the rescue. It can, because, for example, if China, having concluded such an agreement, climbs to take Taiwan (the question is when, nothing more), and the military blocs of the United States and other powers begin to interfere with it, then it is not at all necessary that Russian ships will go to the aid of Chinese .

But the naval blockade of, say, Syria by Turkish ships is already a different alignment.

Now for the districts.

The vital areas are internal sea waters (congratulations to the Sea of ​​Azov), territorial seas, the exclusive economic zone, the Arctic, the entire water area of ​​the Northern Sea Route, the Sea of ​​Okhotsk, the Russian part of the Caspian.

Important areas are “water areas adjacent to the coast of the Russian Federation”. The Black Sea, the eastern part of the Mediterranean Sea, the Black Sea, Baltic and Kuril straits, areas of passage of world transport communications.

Other areas are everything else that lies outside the specified areas and water areas.
In general, everything is very clearly painted. Previously, the teeth were driven from slurred and often incomprehensible formulations about the “main threats”, which everyone understood for himself.

Now everything is more clear and understandable. Yes, I emphasize boldly, this is a theory, as it will be in practice - a little lower, but: the fact that the Doctrine declares areas and the right to the presence and use of the Russian Navy in these areas based primarily on Russian legislation, and then on the basis of international norms and concluded treaties is wonderful.

I emphasize again - this is a theory and a legal component. How it will be implemented in practice - our naval comrades will have to talk about this. I think colleagues Klimov and Timokhin will give the Doctrine some of their attention.

After all, practice is not unfounded statements and unsigned documents. Practice means ships that will patrol areas, participate in maneuvers, and perform various tasks.

Naval Doctrine of Russia: Translation in Meaning and Money

And, unlike the NATO countries, which have long divided the areas of responsibility in the World Ocean, the Russian fleet will have to act alone with all the ensuing consequences.

By the way, about the USA and NATO, which is almost the USA at sea.

According to the compilers of the Doctrine, the main threats to Russia's maritime security are the strategic course of the United States towards dominance in the World Ocean and attempts to globally influence transport communications and energy resources of the World Ocean.

The threat, according to the document, is also the desire of the United States and allies to limit Russia's access to the resources of the World Ocean and vital maritime transport communications, the US desire to achieve superiority of its Navy over the forces of other countries and the territorial claims to Russia of a number of states. Also, there is a danger of economic, political, informational and military pressure on the Russian Federation in order to discredit and reduce the effectiveness of its maritime activities.

Everything is intelligible. Points and commas are perfectly placed, from the wording it becomes clear who is the main enemy of Russia at sea. This is the first.

Secondly, Russia is not just planning to return to the World Ocean, but to do it in a human way. That is, it is planned to create logistics centers, and then we can think about organizing full-fledged bases. And return to the list of former Soviet naval bases abroad.

Here it is clear that the former Soviet bases in Finland, Albania, Libya, Poland, the GDR and the PRC do not shine for us, but:
- Cam Ranh (Vietnam);
- Tartus (Syria);
- Socotra (Yemen);
- Cienfuegos (Cuba);
- Berbera (Somalia);
- Nokra (Ethiopia);
- Bizerte (Tunisia);
- Conakry (Guinea);
- Port Said (Egypt).

Soviet ships were stationed in the harbors of these ports. Why not start slowly back? Yes, it will cost money. But so far small bases in the Persian Gulf and in Southwest Asia will tickle the nerves of opponents. Especially if ships will be based on them. But more on that below. By the way, there is confidence that Iraq and Pakistan, if something happens, will also join those who will be glad to see St. Andrew's flag on their raids.

The only thing that is not spelled out in the Doctrine on this topic is why do we need bases. What is the very presence in different areas of the oceans for? Again, is this the stupidest “flag display”, a designation of the presence of the fleet in the region, or is it a full-fledged real coercion of someone to peace?

That's what in the old Doctrine on this score neither a letter, nor in the new one. Why we need bases to ensure the presence of Russian ships on distant shores is still completely incomprehensible. But it doesn't cost five roubles...

And the second. In order for the fleet to be present in some area all the time, in addition to the base itself, you need, sorry, ships! Warships, supply and support ships, reconnaissance ships, and so on.

Do we have them? No. The ships of the far sea and ocean zone in all Russian fleets can be counted on the fingers. And their condition, let's say, is not very good. "Moscow" has shown what all these "repairs" are worth, especially at the former Ukrainian marine plants.

That is, ships capable of being present in the DMZ still need to be built.

Whether it is necessary?

I am 150% sure that yes, it is necessary. Even if there is not a word about this in the Doctrine, but there is an idea in the head.


The Doctrine states that fleets are obliged to ensure political and economic balance and stability in each region. at the global and regional levels.

With the global, by the way, everything is clear, there are no questions. These are Boreas, which at the right moment will slam at the enemy with all their arsenal. And that is all.

But here's what to do if the War does not start even before the use of nuclear weapons won't come? If it goes precisely at the regional levels?

That is, the Third World War can easily represent not one global massacre, but a series of (big) local conflicts. Armenia, as always, with Azerbaijan, Turkey with Syria, Pakistan with India, Israel with everyone from its “peaceful” environment, and so on?

Any such conflict is a violation of transport routes in the region. And even before the conflict, Russia’s economic interests can be violated by frankly piracy methods, from mass fishing in our waters (hello, Japan!) to the interception of our, for example, oil tankers going to countries objectionable to opponents.

Plus a wide range of revolutions, coups, local batches.

Here, the fleet is simply an excellent tool for projecting power into a certain region. And yes, the Fleet with a capital F is able to prevent many unpleasant things. But for this it is necessary that he be.

And with this we have a complete mess. Those ships that are being built at factories today, sorry, this is not for the DMZ. We do not take strategic missile underwater monsters, this is a one-time tool for incinerating the world. But other?

Sorry, small rocket ships and corvettes of 2000 tons each are not for the designated tasks. For the above tasks, ships of a completely different class are needed. We practically don’t have them left, and what remains is the patched-patched ships of the Soviet fleet, that is, 30+ in terms of age. With the reliability and combat readiness that Admiral Kuznetsov and Moskva demonstrated to the whole world.

All this junk must be disposed of without the slightest pity, because there is no use for them and will not be any more. This is an old floating scrap metal, the combat value of which is zero.

And what should be the THAT Fleet that will control the regions of the World Ocean, the Doctrine is so modestly silent. It's a pity. For specific combat missions, specific warships should be registered. Well, all countries that have Fleets do this. China, India, Japan, USA…


We have silence for now. And a complete misunderstanding where the fleet, which does not yet exist, will be used. Although, in principle, it is clear. "Hot spots" are known, and everyone knows perfectly well where to set fire to catch fire, but not cross the "red line", followed by a nuclear strike.

Moreover, the war in the literal sense, as well as Iraq, may not be. There are excellent proven scenarios for Yugoslavia, Libya and Syria. Especially, by the way, Libyan is indicative. Let's remember if Russia had a fleet capable of coming to the Libyan shores and saying: “And we are against the flights of your aviation”, even without an aircraft carrier (and a couple of dozen light fighters are not needed there, it’s enough to bristle with something like the S-400), with the help of ships with decent air defense, it would be possible to disrupt all air operations against Gaddafi’s army.

By the way, the same thing happened in Syria.

I would say that Assad was saved by a miracle, by transferring normal planes to normal airfields. And already from these airfields the terrorists were more or less enlightened. It cost, of course, astronomical sums, but the question is: where was the fleet?

The fleet treated us to two disgraceful things. The first is when he was unable to supply a very small Syrian group of the Russian army and the Aerospace Forces. And I had to buy all the suitable bulk carriers and tankers from everyone in a row in a fire mode. Even in Ukraine.

Well, the second is the epic “combat” campaign of “Admiral Kuznetsov”. A demonstration of our “power”, when, after six months of training, the cruiser sailed to Syria, a certain number of sorties were carried out from its side, the losses amounted to Su-33 and MiG-29KR due to poor-quality arrester cables.

Now everything is clear with the Kuznetsov, we do not have and are not expected to have aircraft carriers, we can relax. However, this will not cancel the absence in the Doctrine of decoding how the fleet should operate.

It annoys me very much that in the Doctrine everything is painted indistinctly again. Like a report from the Ministry of Defense on the successful conduct of the SVO. Everything seems to be so, but the specifics are zero.

Well, what was worth painting: we don’t have an aircraft carrier, and we won’t. There is no point in restoring this trough, it is impossible to build a new one. But here we have "Zircons" as an argument, so that the commander of any American nuclear airfield can think and calculate whether it is worth looking for adventure.


Yes, the USA/NATO/AUKUS have their own approaches. So what? And we have a different program, a different doctrine. And only by checking in real conditions can we conclude which is more efficient and faster: the Zircon from a Russian ship or the F / A-18 with missiles from an American ship.

But a ship in the DMZ with Zircons should not only be, but feel safe from American aviation from a flat-deck. That is, the ship should not be alone.

Well, by the way, this is provided for in the Doctrine and even painted:
"To provide for the development in the Far East of a modern high-tech shipbuilding complex designed for the construction of large-tonnage ships, including for the development of the Arctic, modern aircraft carriers for the Navy."

Yes, new plants are great. And the old ones in Nikolaev too. And the people at these factories who will finally be able to build frigate-destroyer-class warships.

But it was the same in the previous Doctrine. They even talked about aircraft carrier construction, but things didn’t go beyond talk (thank Neptune).

It is clear that if we are serious about the presence of Russia in other regions as a fleet, then we need ships capable of doing this. Cruisers, destroyers, frigates. Which do not exist and which have yet to be built.

Otherwise, I'm sorry, but it's not worth talking about any pink dreams. And all that remains for Russia, whatever Doctrines you don’t accept and what plans you don’t voice, is the role of a coastal country with a mosquito fleet of coastal defense. And the completely outdated concept of repelling a NATO attack on our shores.

Yes, if we talk about the global and regional levels, then everything is in order with the global, our nuclear triad reliably covers us. But at the regional level...

It would be nice to clearly describe what and how we will "repel aggression from oceanic areas far from the borders of Russia." So far, our fleet is categorically not capable of this. As will be further - time will tell.

In any case, as a result, I want to say that the new Naval Doctrine is still a fairly adequate document. Perhaps the first in all modern history Russia.

However, there are too many white spots in it, thanks to which the future of our fleet still looks very vague and uncertain. Yes, we have begun to understand where and why the fleet will have to be used. It would also be very good to make it clear where the Fleet will come from, capable of solving such difficult tasks.

This is not in the Doctrine, but as they say, it is worth starting. Here it is already clear that the implementation of the Doctrine will take more than one year and more than one trillion rubles. This is also an important aspect. But here the fact that at least half of the naval needs were well voiced at the level of a state document plays a positive role.
228 comments
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  1. +65
    3 August 2022 04: 43
    It is better to build the first 50-60 aircraft carriers before winter, then they will start washing clothes in the hole, they will interfere
    1. +43
      3 August 2022 07: 22
      Quote: Santa Fe
      The first 50-60 aircraft carriers should be built before winter

      You still have to live until winter - here lately witches on broomsticks have scattered. One has now landed in Formosa, brought democracy.
      And all these holiday doctrines, parades of the non-existent Navy and plans to build aircraft carriers are food for the electorate with the memory of a fish. These leaders are incapable of ... they are not capable of anything. Neither to build ships, nor to saturate the Army with drones. Neither to improve the economy, nor to put things in order in the financial sector.
      ... Doctrine ... Aircraft carriers ... Two years ago, two UDCs were solemnly laid in Kerch, with embedded plates screwed onto some incomprehensible size and shape, embedded sections ...
      AND ??
      Where are these UDCs?
      NOTHING is observed on the slipways in Kerch.
      Moreover, no sane appearance of these "future ships" was even presented. As it turned out, at the time of the laying, there was NO project at all ... GENERALLY, there was no project for these UDCs ... And on the poster with the left foot of a freshman from a shipbuilding technical school there was a crooked and stupid picture of something.
      AND SILENCE !
      But what is most important and delicious - the entire amount for these two ships (over 100 billion rubles) was allocated IN FULL. Yes And I am sure that it is being mastered quite successfully.
      And maybe already that - fully mastered. That's why the silence.
      So aircraft carriers, that's good. These are not at all some "innovative corvettes with modular weapons" such as 22160 and 20386 ... this is GO-GO fellow Here budgets are on a different level.
      In the meantime ...
      In the meantime, "Admiral Golovko" has not entered sea trials.
      Why is it important ?
      Because the "first domestic power plant" was installed on it ... Or rather, this is already the second ... the first was somehow miraculously ruined, so the second was later rebaptized into the first and ... silence.
      And is it important .
      For if we were never able to create a working power plant for a frigate, then there can be no other ships in principle. For without engines, not a single ship will budge.
      Do you think it's better with diesel engines for corvettes?
      By no means! And there, a year, one and a half power plants for corvettes, pr. 20380 \ 20385, are tortured. And no prerequisites for acceleration ...
      BUT!
      But at the same time, the prices of these corvettes simply rushed into space - a small VI ship of 2000 - 2200 tons with problematic air defense and limited ammo, with low speed (25 knots for a PLO corvette, that sucks) ... costs as much as 450 million dollars. !!!
      For comparison, the frigate pr. 22350 costs 550 million dollars.
      But it is much more interesting to compare it with a frigate type. 054A . Its export (!) price is ... only 189 million dollars. Construction cycle - a little more than 2 years. At the same time, this is a DMZ ship, the power plant of which consists of 4 medium-speed diesel engines (for 20380 \ 20385 - low-speed columns of 6000 l / s) with a capacity of over 8000 l / s. The speed is higher, VI - 4000 - 4500 tons, air defense - 48 (!) SAM missiles "Shtil" ...
      You understand ?? We are building a corvette with reduced performance at a price 2,5 times higher than the Chinese frigate for export!
      For in China, embezzlers, pests and saboteurs are SHOT, property is confiscated and the family is sent an invoice from the state for the spent cartridge !!!
      And here I award all these wonderful people with orders and the title of "Hero" and give full indulgence from criminal prosecution.
      There was absolutely no desire to watch this last show with a parade ... a pitiful sight of boats and submarines.
      But - Doctrine!
      All Fleet construction programs have been hopelessly failed. Own ship engine building has not appeared in the Russian Federation ... In general, no engine building is observed.
      But there is a war, which, at the very least, is pulled by unparalleled hands of leadership ... like a cat by the genitals.
      There is no modern naval aviation ... it doesn’t exist at all, as a combat-ready and functional part of the Fleet and the RF Armed Forces in general ... And no progress in this direction. There are no AWACS aircraft.
      It seems that there is almost a "Zircon" ... but there are no carriers for DM and OZ for it.
      But now there is Doctrine.
      Here we will win.
      1. 0
        3 August 2022 07: 34
        For in China, embezzlers, pests and saboteurs are SHOT, property is confiscated and the family is sent an invoice from the state for the spent cartridge !!!

        For in the PRC, people who make up the majority of society are in 1st place.
        1. +11
          3 August 2022 08: 20
          In China, there may be a specific attitude towards citizens, but there is a State. A state with a clear goal-setting and state ideology. When the goals are clear and the whole society is united in achieving these goals. And state officials are under the strict supervision of competent services and bear full responsibility if they begin to put personal goals above state ones. When the state - as a single organism (or mechanism), when efficiency - the main criterion for evaluation. When the whole society works for the Result.
          So it was in the USSR, which showed miracles of the effectiveness of its economic and social model ... But ... Now everything is different. Now ideology is prohibited at the level of the "constitution", and the main criterion for evaluation is personal success at ANY cost.
          And mutual responsibility.
          And all the effectiveness is only in propaganda.
          When the economic models tested by time and practice are rejected for purely political reasons, but the worst of the wild capitalism and colonial practices of the Anglo-Saxon world are imposed.
          The Chinese adopted the Stalinist economic model of the Diverse Economy and IMPLEMENTED it.
          And got the result.
          In our country, even thoughts of this kind are persecuted as "contrary to the constitution" ... The Constitution, written by the "Chicago boys" from the US State Department and the US intelligence community.
          But the parade is "holy". Even during a plague or war ... Which is still NWO.
          1. +3
            3 August 2022 11: 26
            With such bosses and such admirals ..... Dreams, dreams, where is your sweetness.
          2. 0
            3 August 2022 12: 03
            There were no miracles of diversity in the economy of the USSR, do not compose. There was voluntarism, which made it possible to concentrate huge resources in certain areas (military-industrial complex, space, BAM, national outskirts) at the expense of the rest of the country. Only the lazy do not write about the zoo of various weapons in the USSR, while parity with NATO was lost, including in the navy. We don't need this "back to the future".
            China did not take Stalinist principles into service, the Chinese economy has been growing all this time on the open market and attracting new Western technologies for export, and then for domestic use. Management in China is better built than ours, yes. But Stalin has nothing to do with it.
            And our Constitution is written for the president, and this is enshrined in 2020. Who advertised and promoted it, what Chicago boys, what are you talking about ...
            1. +11
              3 August 2022 13: 02
              Quote: Jonny_Su
              There were no miracles of diversity in the economy of the USSR

              Did you carefully read what I wrote? We are talking about the period from the beginning of the 30s to 1955, when Khrushchev's breaking of that very multi-structural system began.
              Do you even know that until 55, almost all ateliers, photographs, shoemakers and shoe factories, furniture production, production of televisions, radios and radiograms, restaurants and many shops were ... cooperative. Dental technicians and some types of medical practice were also allowed for individual (private) activities.
              Have you ever heard that our world-famous helicopter design bureaus - Kamov and Mil, were created as design cooperatives? And they created their first helicopters in this capacity. They were given the building of a former furniture factory for two, they were given a state order for design work ... You have not heard about it.
              And that even in the countryside, a certain part of the population remained outside the collective farms and state farms and led an individual farm life. In the Union republics, there were even more of them, especially those employed in cattle breeding. Have you not heard how during the war one such beekeeper built (paid for) almost an entire tank column for the Red Army at his own expense? And what level of salaries before Khrushchev's revision of tariff scales was heard / seen?
              You will be very surprised.
              The British miners' trade unions, after visiting the USSR by their representatives, began in England at that time a desperate struggle for the same wages and social guarantees as in the USSR! And this is not a tale, but a real fact. A miner could buy Pobeda for one salary. True, the country was then still recovering after the war and people were mostly rebuilding. And the state relied on individual housing. Land plots were issued (for free!) , a loan was issued for the construction of a house, standard projects were offered, building materials were issued at the state price.
              17% of the total GDP of the USSR was created by cooperatives and individual (private was a dirty word) entrepreneurs. And it was encouraged by the state! The state issued loans, premises, assisted in organizing the supply of raw materials and sales, and issued state orders. And there were very serious plans to expand this particular segment of the economy.
              So in the post-war years, when there were many young war invalids in the country - without legs, without an arm, etc. with injuries ... and very quickly many of them (in cities, most of them) were involved in various production cooperatives that sewed shoes, clothes, produced other goods needed by the country ... But when Khrushch took the reins, all these cooperatives were abolished and transformed into state enterprises. No one kept disabled people there ... and they filled train stations and other crowded places, subsisting on alms ... And when this maize farmer decided to hold an international Youth Festival, so that these crippled people would not spoil the image of Moscow, they were all collected and taken to one from the islands where they ended their days ... The disgusting story of the forerunner of Gorbachev and Yeltsin.
              Quote: Jonny_Su
              China did not take Stalinist principles into service,

              What do you know about China?
              Maybe you talked to them about this?
              Do you even know that Stalin's works are studied in their universities. and some in schools. Together with the works of Mao, who considered himself a student of Stalin.
              Here they simply despise Khrushchev.
              And at home they implemented just the Stalinist Diversified Economy. Where, along with large state-owned enterprises in basic industries, there is a place for private initiative. "It doesn't matter what color your cat is, the main thing is that it catches mice" - this is the slogan of a mixed economy with Chinese characteristics.
              That is why, next to the state industrial giants, in China there is a huge number of private enterprises and cooperatives based on ... rural communities. And these communities often developed their enterprises into very large factories and factories.
              They simply implemented Stalin's program ... with Chinese characteristics. And they directly declare it .
              And they took the death of the USSR from internal betrayal very hard and wary. In the autumn of 1991, I accompanied the Chinese delegation around Moscow, and I remember how they tensed up and even darkened their faces when we drove up to Lubyanskaya Square, seeing the empty pedestal of the monument to F.E. Dzerzhinsky ... And with pain, but very concentrated head of the delegation ( the largest northern province of China, 60 million people) said: "We must restore."
              Quote: Jonny_Su
              Management in China is better built than ours, yes. But Stalin has nothing to do with it.

              They did everything according to the patterns of the USSR of the Stalinist period. Having implemented some of the things that Stalin did not have time to do.
              But not China should be an example for us, but our own experience of victories and unprecedented growth and development.
              1. -7
                3 August 2022 13: 13
                There is no need to simplify and reduce the problem to the personality of Khrushchev, after him Brezhnev had almost 20 years and then Gorbachev had 6 years to roll back to the previous social order, but this was not done.
                1. +4
                  3 August 2022 14: 40
                  Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
                  Brezhnev had 20 years and then Gorbachev had 6 years to roll back to the previous social order, but this was not done.

                  Did not have. Which does not negate the great successes of the USSR of Stalin's times and, despite the change of course and a number of Khrushchev's fundamental mistakes, which continued (on the inertia of Stalin's kick) until about 1970
                2. 0
                  3 August 2022 21: 09
                  Violently "minus", apparently, believe that almost 30 years after Khrushchev in the history of the USSR simply did not exist, and it was not possible to fix anything. Here we have one, right here on the site.
                  1. +2
                    3 August 2022 23: 22
                    Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
                    believe that almost 30 years after Khrushchev in the history of the USSR simply did not exist, and it was not possible to fix anything

                    Actually, Brezhnev managed to win back a lot - the most destructive. I wrote to you about it. But he could not fully return to the Stalinist Model for various reasons. Firstly, dear Leonid Ilyich, although he was a good uncle, he didn’t have enough stars from the sky and it seems he just didn’t understand WHAT kind of system Stalin was building, and Stalin’s comrades-in-arms were cleaned out by Khrushchev. And secondly, after the uprisings in Hungary, and especially in Czechoslovakia. Here is the uprising in Czechoslovakia and forced to abandon the so-called. "Kosygin's reforms" ... and the USSR decided to "freeze" for 20 years. So that this does not happen with us. And this period was called "stagnation".
                    Read the works of Kozhinov (academician), Platonov, Mukhin on these topics ... yes, there are many good authors, and not absorb all the dirt and garbage from the liberal (and they are almost all of us) media.
                    1. 0
                      14 August 2022 02: 51
                      Good day to you, thanks for your posts, especially for the authors! I am concerned about the topic you raised, it will be very interesting to read the authors you named.
                3. +3
                  3 August 2022 21: 22
                  Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
                  There is no need to simplify and reduce the problem to the personality of Khrushchev, after him Brezhnev had almost 20 years and then Gorbachev had 6 years,

                  Himself not funny?
                  Brezhnev, of course, returned a lot from what was destroyed by Khrushchev, he returned the Soviet Government, abolished by Kukuruznik, sectoral ministries reappeared, in fact turned off the anti-Stalinist propaganda that the restless Trotskyist unleashed, and which simply pissed off the Soviet people, ensured strategic parity with the United States, economic growth rates and social the sphere developed rapidly throughout the first part of his reign (before the illness). He really was a workaholic, but there were not enough stars from the sky. But the worst thing that he allowed was Andropov for the post of head of the KGB, who became the main agent of US influence in the USSR, brought to power all those geeks of his native land who destroyed the Great Country. And he also reliably covered the exposed agents of the West, preserving not only their freedom, but also providing them with high and significant positions. The most striking example of this is Yakovlev, who became the main ideologist of the future perestroika. It was he, Andropov, who led Gorbach, Shevardnadze and a whole swarm of others to the pinnacle of power.
                  So the period from 1955 to 1985. became precisely the period for the rebirth of the CPSU and the state and economic apparatus of the USSR as a whole, the preparatory period for its liquidation. They were just waiting for the generation to change and their proteges to be in power.
                  And even more so, no one tried to restore the diversity of the Soviet economy. On the contrary , the state monopoly on the means of production only strengthened . Wages have stagnated for at least 25 years, the real purchasing power of wages has been gradually declining ... against the backdrop of a progressive rise in living standards in the leading capitalist countries.
                  This was done deliberately in order to sow despondency and disappointment of the Soviet people in their own socio-political system on the eve of the destruction of their country.
                  So we had real socialism from the mid-30s to 1955. After that, it more and more resembled a mix of social guarantees of a socialist society and state capitalism.
                  Then they destroyed it too.
                  1. 0
                    3 August 2022 21: 33
                    Why should I be funny? I wrote that 26 years have passed since Khrushchev, but nothing has changed. And I was bombarded with minuses, as if I had not been 26 years old. Do you also think that there were no 26 years to correct mistakes? Where to laugh?
                    1. +4
                      3 August 2022 23: 32
                      Khrushchev's SUCCESSORS and accomplices ruled for 26 years. The same L.I. Brezhnev was tied with Khrushchev by an anti-Stalinist coup and blood (complicity) in the murder of L.P. Beria (Beria was not arrested, but was simply killed in his house, and the body was taken out wrapped in a carpet). It was a Trotskyist coup.
                      And the Trotskyists remained in power.
                      The main symbol and guarantee of the inviolability of the victory of Trotskyism was the cousin of Y. Sverdlov - Yu.M. Andropov.
                      So he controlled everything, and led the country to surrender and death.
                      After 1955, there were no more followers of I.V. Stalin in power. And such people were no longer destined to rise to the heights of power.
                      1. +3
                        3 August 2022 23: 41
                        Do you have a split personality? Either Brezhnev is your accomplice, then he won back what he could, you already decide.
                        Or are you provoking me for more posts and lowering my rating with as many downvotes as possible?
                        I keep forgetting what the general's and marshal's shoulder straps mean here.
                      2. 0
                        4 August 2022 02: 06
                        Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
                        Either Brezhnev is your accomplice, then he won back what he could, you already decide.

                        You don't know your country's history too well. Brezhnev was part of a group of generals (do you even know that he fought, in what rank he finished the war, under whose command? That he took part in the Victory Parade) which was assembled by Marshal Zhukov, attracted by Khrushchev to eliminate Beria. Zhukov gathered the generals loyal to himself and carried out a purely military operation - the liquidation group arrived at Beria's house in armored cars, shot his guards and himself from machine guns, and the bodies were taken out. These are memories on camera of his son - Sergo.
                        Do you know anything about Sergo Beria himself?
                        About his role in ensuring the country's security? About his role in the creation of anti-aircraft missile systems, starting with S-25 and S-75. The first Soviet air defense system was called "Berkut" - from the first syllables of the names of its authors - Beria and Kutenkov. Sergo Beria became the author and co-author of many Soviet air defense and missile defense systems. Great scientist, son of a great but slandered father.
                        And Brezhnev ... he was part of that group of generals participating in the conspiracy. Beria was then the second person in the state, oversaw nuclear, missile and a number of other projects. partly continued to oversee foreign intelligence ... and also took part in designing a new look for Moscow. He always dreamed of becoming an architect, the best and most beautiful buildings, the entire center of Tbilisi were designed under his leadership. In Moscow, he oversaw the construction of Stalin's skyscrapers, a complex of buildings on Staraya Square and a number of other objects. Stalin knew how to select personnel.
                        Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
                        provoke, for a larger number of posts and a decrease in my rating, perhaps a large number of minuses?

                        I rarely put minuses to the interlocutor. Unless he's completely talking nonsense or inadequate. And I'm completely uninterested in your rating.
                        However, I wish you to "climb" to the "general".
                        I personally have a good relationship with Leonid Ilyich. Having seized power after the removal of Khrushch, he managed to fix a lot, build and create a lot. But his level was far from the level of his great predecessor (Stalin), and here he has no fault, no one managed to equal Stalin over the entire past period. Even get close. The man was too big and multifaceted.
                        Brezhnev gave us something that we did not have for many years - 25 years of stability. And even though that period was later called stagnation ... those who lived in those years remember this period as the best years. Their own and their country.
                        And yes, Brezhnev suffered from his involvement in the murder (not personal of course) of Beria and the Khrushchev coup. It was because of this involvement that the Trotskyists had hooks and opportunities to influence him.
                        As a person who went through the war, participated and led its post-war reconstruction, he was very well aware of WHAT our people went through, and just wanted to provide him with a peaceful and stable life. Yes, he always talked about it. And did.
                        In general, he was a good, sincere person (he knew a guy from his garage - the driver of a Mercedes donated by the Germans).
                        So everything is in order with my personalities. I told you where and what information to look for, work with it (information) yourself. And I’m unlikely to be able to convince you with such dialogues, we have too different levels of knowledge of the subject. And that's the advantage of my age.
                4. -2
                  3 August 2022 22: 39
                  No one needed it. People were glad that the madness was over, and wanted to arrange life to the best of their ability. They were illiterate and it turned out differently. As a result, turned into capitalism. And everyone turned there, let's be honest.
                  1. -2
                    3 August 2022 22: 49
                    This is not at all discussed. A lot of evil is attributed to Dzhugashvili, but then there appeared those who wanted to outweigh all the failures on Khrushchev, and with a clean eye they consider amnesia as a valor, with aggressive erasure from the memory of 26 years after him.
                    1. +1
                      4 August 2022 00: 16
                      Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
                      on a clean eye, amnesia is considered a prowess, with aggressive erasure from the memory of 26 years after it.

                      In general, for our country and people it was a period of stability, security and confidence in the future. But all this was possible thanks to the Stalinist backlog, because even on the unbroken remnants of his state, our people (Soviet) lived peacefully and calmly for a quarter of a century.
                      Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
                      A lot of evil is listed for Dzhugashvili

                      And you did not try to understand these atrocities?
                      Maybe blame the 37th year on him?
                      Or maybe look into the materials of the upcoming congress for those events? You ask why the Trotskyists in the party got so excited and decided to disrupt the first free elections to the soviets on a competitive basis, prescribed in the new Stalinist Constitution?
                      Who spoke there and demanded to postpone the elections and first carry out thorough purges from the "old elements" - former nobles, officers, priests, old engineers and their families ... Do you know WHO demanded this?
                      And the fact that Stalin asked the Congress to postpone this decision (about the purges) and not put it to a vote, you know?
                      But the Congress, by its vote, supported Khrushchev and his group of secret Trotskyists, and decided to carry out purges.
                      And it started.
                      Stalin then only cut the lists for arrests, trying to limit their scale with quotas for the regions ... Have you seen Khrushch's letters to Stalin at the time when he insisted on expanding the quotas by 10 times? Look.
                      And what then led Khrushchev?
                      Moscow!
                      Where were the most people repressed and shot by the decision of triples?
                      In Moscow !!
                      At the same time they arrested and on the same day shot my friend's grandfather, a former Moscow priest, who had been out of state for 10 years, had no parish and did not serve.
                      And it was Stalin who stopped all this chaos unleashed throughout the country by the Trotskyists.
                      How ?
                      Stalin's recruitment of working youth into law enforcement agencies. The staff of the NKVD was expanded at the expense of young Russian guys on the recommendation of the Komsomol organizations. And then the purges began already in the law enforcement agencies themselves. And already those who unleashed this terror went in single file to the wall.
                      Do you know how Beria started at the end of 1938, when he came from Georgia to Moscow?
                      Since the establishment of a commission for the revision of criminal cases for the rehabilitation of innocently convicted.
                      Do you think he did it himself? Is that where to start?
                      And after all, he managed to save many. How many military, scientists, engineers, stipulated by the Trotskyists, were rehabilitated and returned from prisons and camps.
                      How long did Rokosovsky spend in the dungeons?
                      Thanks to whom was he returned from there not only to freedom, but also received a corps?
                      What did Stalin say to him after his release?
                      Why were the famous Beria sharashkas created?
                      In order not to die in the camps, our designers, engineers and scientists, while their cases are being reviewed. For the review of cases was carried out carefully, with the identification of all the circumstances and the GUILTY of the slander and the imposition of wrong sentences.
                      You can't even imagine WHAT a struggle was then going on between the Stalinist Bolsheviks and the supporters of Trotsky, who was supported by the banking houses and special services of our historical enemies.
                      Our history and life itself is much more complex and multifaceted than you think. And in order to form your OWN qualified opinion, you need to study, understand and analyze a lot. Believe me, in this case, many discoveries await you, for you today, completely unexpected and incredible.
                      But this will require considerable work and patience.
                      To make it clearer to you, my great-uncle is the commander of the Chapaev division, a former deputy. and friend of Vasily Ivanovich Chapaev, was arrested and shot in 1938, his wife died in exile in Kazakhstan, and his only daughter later married my uncle. Do not forget that the Civil War then ended only formally, but its echo was reflected in our history for a long time ... So, for example, I studied at a military university together with the great-grandson of the infantry general Yudenich ... and together we studied Lenin's work "Everything is on fight against Yudenich".
                      Internal reconciliation has not just been achieved and has not been achieved to this day in everything. And then - at the end of the 30s, on the eve of the Second World War, the intra-party struggle between Trotskyists and Stalinists intensified in the USSR. By the end of 1938, the Stalinists won, and in 1953 the Trotskyists took revenge.
                      In 1955, Khrushchev seized full power in the USSR. Since then, a plan began to develop to destroy the Soviet Union, not just as a state, but also as an idea. That's why we were banned from ideology.
                      Legislatively!
                      At the constitutional level!
                      Think.
              2. -10
                3 August 2022 13: 36
                I agree, I missed it here. I do not consider this time so beautiful against the backdrop of the literal hungry cannibalism of the 30s and 40s, and the insane Stalinist projects such as the Northern Railway and the Korean War. It seems to me that you idealize the Stalinist period. I am ready to believe about over wages, this is a feature of the Soviet planned economy, where pockets of prosperity were artificially created at the expense of the rest of the country.
                1. +8
                  3 August 2022 14: 37
                  Quote: Jonny_Su
                  I do not consider this time so beautiful against the background of the literal hungry cannibalism of the 30s and 40s

                  Eee... what? :))))
                  1. +2
                    3 August 2022 21: 29
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Eee... what? :))))

                    The guy heard and read enough nonsense. In my head is a mess of liberal clichés.
                    1. +6
                      3 August 2022 21: 46
                      It looks like we will soon have to explain that the Earth revolves around the Sun, and not vice versa ... crying
                  2. -5
                    3 August 2022 21: 50
                    I mean the famine of 1930-1933, the "Holodomor", and 1946-1947. Both famines were inspired by the policy of the party headed by the "multiform" Stalin, starvation deaths are in the millions in the first case and hundreds of thousands, according to minimal estimates, in the second. Numerous descriptions of starvation and cases of cannibalism can be found on the Internet, everything is easily googled.
                    I agree that Mao cosplayed Stalin and his folly responded with millions of deaths in China. But after Deng Xiaoping, Chinese policy became much more balanced and open to the world; it cannot be called Stalinist.
                    1. +3
                      4 August 2022 01: 11
                      Quote: Jonny_Su
                      I mean the famine of 1930-1933, "Holodomor"

                      I already wrote to you - the famine in the Ukrainian SSR was organized by two sidekicks - Khrushev and Kaganovich, by taking out all the grain in a lean year, dooming people in the grain region to starvation. And they very carefully concealed the scale of the catastrophe they had inspired, setting up police posts at the exits from the villages and intercepting correspondence. And at the same time, Khrushch always mowed in front of Stalin like a village fool - diligent, but not far off. That is why Stalin underestimated / overlooked this cunning and insidious enemy next to him. And I had to work with those who were available, educating and nurturing new generations of Soviet leaders. And when Stalin decided to remove / remove this "old guard" from power, they rallied and killed Stalin.
                      Quote: Jonny_Su
                      1946-1947's.

                      Then there was an extremely lean year in the entire Northern Hemisphere of our planet. There were no adequate food supplies, the country was in post-war devastation, the cities / villages / economy were being restored. There was also famine in Europe at that time, even in the USA and Canada.
                      Quote: Jonny_Su
                      Numerous descriptions of starvation and cases of cannibalism can be found on the Internet, everything is easily googled.

                      I knew eyewitnesses of this, I knew a woman who then (a girl) was almost killed for food by her neighbors. but it was in Kazakhstan. Namely, there - in the trans-Volga steppes and northern Kazakhstan, the famine was especially strong.
                      Quote: Jonny_Su
                      I agree that Mao cosplayed Stalin and his folly responded with millions of deaths in China.

                      Don't talk nonsense, it hurts. Maybe in the destruction of sparrows and other small birds in China, blame Stalin? Mao was weird in his own way, no worse than Khrushch was a valuntarist. Economic recovery and sustainable development in China only began after the death of Mao. But the Chinese, unlike the top of the USSR (Trotskyists), do not pour dirt on their history, but draw conclusions and go further by summarizing all their experience. It would be nice for us to do the same. Stalin, by the way, did just that, widely generalizing the experience of the best minds of the former Russia (RI), using scientific, technical and military personnel.
                      Quote: Jonny_Su
                      after Deng Xiaoping, Chinese policy became much more balanced and open to the world; it cannot be called Stalinist.

                      The economic model is clearly Stalinist. And they have always been aware of this and often emphasized it.
                      Mao's excesses were caused not only by the personal qualities of the Chinese leader. Stalin, by the way, treated him with caution and saw his personal shortcomings and, thanks to his authority, softened.
                      Mao, on the other hand, tried to make an economic breakthrough as quickly as possible, not realizing that in the case of China, he had a much lower start and that he would need much more time to do this. He was in a hurry. And after the break with the USSR, he had fewer qualified advisers.
                      Quote: Jonny_Su
                      But after Deng Xiaoping

                      Deng Xiaoping reassured China from Mao's breakthroughs and began reforms precisely according to Stalin's patterns - a Multi-Stack Economy, relying not only on state institutions, but also on private initiative, encouraging the cooperative movement and private entrepreneurship. Quote about the cat - his. Not to see the Stalinist model in the Chinese economy ... you either have to be blind or just don't know anything about it.
                      you have just the second case.
                      Just refer to sources (not liberal) and you will see and understand everything for yourself. Good luck with this.
                      1. 0
                        4 August 2022 19: 02
                        Thank you, interesting opinion. I'm telling you, another information room.
                        But you, right in the last paragraph, interpret the diversity in such a way that you can describe Gorbachev's cost accounting and cooperatives of the 80s as a transition to the Stalinist principles of economic management. In form it will be similar, in fact, of course not.
                        Can you recommend any books/resources on this subject?
                      2. +1
                        4 August 2022 20: 33
                        There is a lot of such literature, and if your views do not interfere with you, you can familiarize yourself with the works of Mukhin, OA Platonov, academician Kozhinov. You can also read Khazin's "Stairway to Heaven". Offhand, I don’t remember everyone now, for the named authors, for now, they will be sufficient.
                        Or you can just take the primary sources, if you're lucky, of course - from the Complete Works of I.V. Stalin. The latter would be the best solution, because it would exclude third-party interpretations.
                      3. +1
                        4 August 2022 20: 47
                        Quote: Jonny_Su
                        it is possible to describe Gorbachev's cost accounting and cooperatives of the 80s by the transition to the Stalinist principles of economic management

                        To some extent, this was true. but the goal of those reforms was different - to show the advantages of "market relations" and capitalism using the examples of cooperators and new entrepreneurs. And also to prepare an economic base for new privatizers.
                        It was then that the conspirators used Komsomol functionaries to create such commercial and "public" organizations as NTTM (Khodorkovsky, Nevzlin), "Barguzin" in Irkutsk (Roma Abramovich) and the like, which immediately after the abolition of the USSR, received huge state assets.
                        But if we stopped only at the resolution of the cooperative movement, then the economic effect would be very large - these cooperatives saturate the market with consumer goods and services quite well in just a couple of years. And this was not at all to the detriment of the basic industries and the economy as a whole. If the USSR had survived, these cooperatives would have resolved the issue of the consumer deficit in a short time and would have balanced the domestic market.
                        But the conspirators did not need this at all.
                    2. +4
                      4 August 2022 10: 13
                      Quote: Jonny_Su
                      I mean the famine of 1930-1933, "Holodomor", and 1946-1947

                      Ivan, let's start simple. Was there a famine in Russia before the famine of 32-33 or not?
                      The question, oddly enough, little studied. But the fact is that the Russian Empire, successfully exporting a lot of grain, itself suffered from hunger permanently.
                      "Russia actually does not get out of the state of famine in one or another province, both before the war and during the war" (A.N. Naumov, Minister of Agriculture in 1915-16)

                      The victims are in the millions. For example, according to the most minimal estimates, more than 1891 million people became victims of the famine of 92/1,3. despite the fact that this figure does not include statistics on children under one year old. Yes, official data is about 400 thousand people. But if we take and compare the mortality in 1891 and 1892, and, most importantly, consider the supermortality of 1892 not in relation to the hungry 1891, but to the early years, when there was no crop shortage, we have almost a million people. But the statistics took into account only the Orthodox (and there were more than 30% of the Gentiles approximately to the total population) and children under the age of one were not taken into account at all. And, since the first census was conducted in 1897, there are generally great doubts about the correctness of recorded deaths, even among the Orthodox.
                      And then - the famine of 1900-1901, the famine of 1905, the famine of 1910-11 ...
                      Is it a bit much?
                      The Holodomor of 32-33 years is a huge tragedy. And yes, it was largely due to the mistakes of the leadership. But you need to understand that he only crowned a whole series of famines that were before, but AFTER him, the famines in the USSR associated with its economic structure practically ceased.
                      In fact, in 1932-33, the following came out - Stalin headed for industrialization, which died safely under the NEP, there was an outflow of peasants into workers, that is, the number of workers decreased. This objectively had to be done, without industrialization the country would not have survived. The second premise is crop failure. And third, these are the mistakes of the leadership on the ground, and, as respected bayard rightly writes, in many respects these mistakes were not even mistakes, but the desire of people on the ground to get away with it at any cost.
                      Stalin is to blame? Yes, guilty. But let's not forget that he began to steer the country alone somewhere in 1930. if not later. And that it was his innovations in the economy that led to the fact that the famine in the USSR disappeared.
                      Simply put, if it were not for the mistakes (and for a number of leaders - malfeasance) of people on the ground, then the famine of 1932-33 would have become an ordinary and unremarkable next famine that haunted the Russian Empire throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries. And if not for the Second World War, it would have become the last. That's why. if a person is open-minded, it will be difficult for him to put this famine as a reproach to the model of the Stalinist economy.
                      Quote: Jonny_Su
                      and 1946-1947

                      I'm sorry, but don't you find it strange to ignore the fact that
                      1) The country has just survived a terrible war, and half of it lies in ruins
                      2) Shortage of workers after supermortality as a result of the Second World War
                      3) A very complex foreign policy arrangement, which excludes the possibility of relaxing and reducing spending on the armed forces.
                      4) Crop failure
                      and reduce the causes of the famine of 1946-47 exclusively to the Stalinist economy?
                2. 0
                  3 August 2022 21: 58
                  Quote: Jonny_Su
                  I do not consider this time so beautiful against the background of the literal hungry cannibalism of the 30s and 40s

                  Are you talking about the famine in Ukraine and the Volga region?
                  It was man-made (Ukraine) - the work of Khrushch and Kaganovich. when in a lean year they took out all the grain under panicles in order to ensure record deliveries ... and then hid the results of their "labor" by setting up police posts around the villages so that the peasants dying of hunger would not disperse into the cities.
                  Quote: Jonny_Su
                  and crazy Stalinist projects

                  PROJECTS???
                  Are you talking about Industrialization? When, in less than two five-year plans, did the country rush from a backward \ bastard \ agrarian into the category of the most advanced? Having reached the 2-3rd place in terms of GDP in the World?
                  Quote: Jonny_Su
                  such as the Northern Railway and the Korean War.

                  The northern railway was built as a strategic one in case of war with the United States, which was expected precisely in the Far East. And the Korean War began on the initiative of Kim Il Sung and Mao Zedong, who simply persuaded him to give them permission to drive the American henchmen out of the Korean Peninsula. The USSR supported S. Korea unofficially (!) Even when the North Korean army was defeated by the American coalition, and even then this was expressed in air cover for Pyongyang from Chinese (!) Airfields. So the Korean War is not a "Stalinist project" at all.
                  Quote: Jonny_Su
                  I am ready to believe about over wages, this is a feature of the Soviet planned economy, where pockets of prosperity were artificially created at the expense of the rest of the country.

                  Come on . belay
                  How are we now?
                  And in the rest of the world?
                  The work of miners is hard and extremely dangerous, like the work of metallurgists in the hot grid, so the salaries of miners and metallurgists are always and everywhere much higher than in other industries. Among working professions , of course . I'm still from the mining region and I know what I'm talking about.
                  But in the USSR in those years (until 1955+) the salaries of other significant specialties were high. Academicians received the most (multiple more than members of the Central Committee and even ministers), high, and even very, were the salaries of cultural figures, artists, singers, especially with degrees and titles. It certainly was not a period of Khrushchev-Brezhnev starvation and poverty of this category of Soviet citizens.
                  You know too little about that period, especially about the details, causes and effects of much.
                  1. -2
                    3 August 2022 22: 20
                    I looked at Wikipedia, maybe it’s true that I don’t know about this bright time. Deaths 1930-1933 in Ukraine, Kuban, the Volga region, Northern Kazakhstan, and the Northern Caucasus. And 1 million people in "the rest of the country." Decree of Stalin and Molotov of 1933 on the ban on the departure of the population from the Kuban and the Volga region. What are you talking about, again, "the king is good, the boyars are bad"? This is not a mistake, this is a systemic defect of the Soviet Stalinist regime. One can not say much about the sprawling road on permafrost, which Beria quickly covered after the death of the leader. This is the same voluntarism that is now driving the laying of incomprehensible helicopter carriers in the Crimea and the Poseidon wunderwaffe. The same level of elaboration and justification. Then the leader was more corrosive, now less, who is more in the palaces, but at the same time understands about macroeconomics. There are pluses.
                    With all due respect, we will not agree on this issue. I'm a liberal, and you have your own information room here))
                    1. 0
                      3 August 2022 22: 53
                      And what did the helicopter carriers not please? They don’t fit in with a bad memory of Stalin, but how?
                    2. 0
                      4 August 2022 01: 25
                      Quote: Jonny_Su
                      Looked at Wikipedia

                      Quote: Jonny_Su
                      . I'm a liberal

                      Then this is a hopeless case and we should not "negotiate".
                    3. kig
                      0
                      3 September 2022 10: 50
                      Quote: Jonny_Su
                      I'm a liberal, and you have your own information room here))

                      In general, the USSR, as well as its successor, the Russian Federation, are countries with an unpredictable history.

                      And we are all moving forward.
                      And now it's the turn of the new leader.
                      Let any of us be
                      but whoever he is,
                      our critical eye will pierce right through it.

                      He will not deceive us, he will not lead us.
                      In the end, all the people will know about him:
                      what he is; what he is;

                      well and so distant in a circle
                      1. +1
                        3 September 2022 11: 51
                        Quote: kig
                        In general, the USSR, as well as its successor, the Russian Federation, are countries with an unpredictable history.

                        This and not only concerns us.
                        "History is politics overturned into the past" ... And every new government writes its own history to the people, which is beneficial to it.
                        But while the carriers of those former events are alive, the seeker has the opportunity to find out his past. But for this you need to study the course of events of the past on your own - according to the materials and artifacts of those years and times, according to the stories and testimony of participants and eyewitnesses of the events.
                        I was lucky to meet and communicate with some of these people.
                      2. kig
                        0
                        3 September 2022 12: 33
                        Why are they somehow far removed from the naval doctrine?
                      3. -1
                        3 September 2022 13: 14
                        To write a doctrine, you need a pen (keyboard) and paper. But for its implementation ... in the Russian Federation, at least competencies are needed in creating at least several types of ship propulsion systems. For without them ships cannot be built.
                        And there will be engines - there will be ships.
                        There will be ships, and you can write a doctrine.
                        Of course, you can first accept the doctrine, and then implement it ... but we don’t know how to do it - simple ways are unknown to us, because everything needs to be done in a special way by hands - like tearing the tonsils through the anus.

                        But seriously, today Russia has absolutely everything to build a full-fledged balanced and powerful Fleet with ships of all necessary types ... except for engines.
                        request Well, that's how we drive our hands.
                        And sometimes they give pitchforks to journalists and "experts" so that they can move them through the water in their forecasts and conclusions.
                        The result is regular and stable.
                        And the quality of general manual management is being demonstrated today, incl. in the organization and general management of the NWO.
                        One can speak about the "sea doctrine" with the same success and result as about the peculiarities of the teenage period of the inhabitants of Tau Ceti.
              3. 0
                9 August 2022 14: 58
                17% of the total GDP of the USSR was created by cooperatives and individual (private was a dirty word) entrepreneurs.

                What sources are you using?
                hi
                1. 0
                  9 August 2022 18: 02
                  Materials of congresses and plenums of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks, statistical data of that time, works by O.A. Platonov (the cycle of books "The Crown of Thorns of Russia"), Mukhin, academician Kozhin ... the experience of personal conversations with a former employee of the State Planning Committee of the late Stalinist period ... Yes, there are many sources, because I was born and raised in That Country.
                  By the way, I recommend Khazin's book "Stairway to Heaven", now its second volume is being prepared for publication (the 1st came out about 10 years ago). Yes, and it’s worth listening to Mikhail - he has been performing a lot lately, these speeches are published on YouTube.
                  hi
                  1. 0
                    9 August 2022 18: 07
                    Sorry, I asked a little vaguely - I wanted to clarify about 17% ...

                    This is in the statistical collection for which year?
                    hi
                    1. 0
                      9 August 2022 20: 17
                      I don't remember now. but I also met this figure with several (including those mentioned by me) authors.
                      Even now I remember with nostalgia the first wardrobe of my parents ... and grandfather ... what was the quality of private traders and cooperators ... And after the Khrushchev defeat, this ... Chipboard guano went - it’s scary to remember.
                      Remember the film "The meeting place cannot be changed" when Sharapov caught Manka Bond? smile That restaurant was cooperative. And the milliner with whom Fox encrypted? smile After the Khrushchev pogrom, this was forbidden.
                      And then it was everywhere.
                      Look at Stalin's speech at the congress - his report on the results of the 1st Five-Year Plan. He said there, using the example of the construction of a textile mill in Ivanovo (approximately close to the text): “Here we built the largest textile mill in Ivanovo in the 1st Five-Year Plan, which covered 50% of the demand for fabrics. We wanted to build several garment factories in the 2nd Five-Year Plan for tailoring from this textile, they prepared money ... But after thinking, they decided - to build another textile factory in Ivanovo with this money to cover all 100% of the needs in all types of fabrics, and leave sewing of finished products to sewing cooperatives and private traders working at home - they will only thank us, and they will provide a larger assortment to citizens. This is how it should be done in everything - to give the production of consumer goods to the initiative of citizens and collective enterprises. " .
                      That's pretty much what he said.
                      And that's how it all came to life.
                      The state took over the basic industries, and cooperatives were engaged in consumer goods.
                      hi
                      1. 0
                        9 August 2022 20: 29
                        Excuse me, but why then Verka the milliner altered stolen items and items from those killed by the gang, while Sobolevskaya worked for Legprom?
                        hi
                      2. 0
                        9 August 2022 22: 27
                        You didn’t understand - in the post-Stalin era, such labor practices as Verka Modistka’s were banned. As well as cooperative restaurants, cafes, canteens, shops and stalls ... request so decided the Trotskyite Khrushchev. Apparently he cared about the people.
                        Here was such a very clear example - in the post-war period there were many cripples / disabled people. Often they didn't have families, or they didn't want to come home like this... And they began to flood the train stations...
                        But!
                        They were very quickly organized into production cooperatives that were engaged in tailoring shoes, clothes, the production of gramophones and electrical appliances ... They also had dormitories / rooms at such factories / cooperatives ...
                        Khrushch dispersed all these cooperatives or repurposed them into ordinary factories / workshops, such things fell into decay (he knew how to do this “excellently”), and the disabled dispersed / spread (some without legs) back to the stations, sang songs and begged along the trains. And when Khrushch decided to hold the World Festival of Youth and Students for the sake of PR, then all these poor fellows were gathered and taken to a lonely island, where they ended their days. Somewhere in the Kizhi region.
                        Quote: House 25 Sq. 380
                        while Sobolevskaya worked for Legprom?

                        Well, not a single private trader, not only cooperatives. A lot of things apply to light industry.
                        Here is an artel sculpting felt boots. smile
                        Is it a co-op?
                        Yes. Yes
                        And who will provide the Red Army with shoes (which under Stalin had a population of 11 million people ... and at the same time reached the pre-war GDP by 1949), shoes for schoolchildren and preschoolers, including for boarding schools?
                        Army uniform? Sheepskin coats for sentries?
                        The fabrics themselves in all their inconceivable diversity? winked
                        Is he ! Yes
                        Legprom. Yes
                        Here, my aunt led a whole light industry trust. smile But this was already under Brezhnev-Gorbachev. request
                        hi
                      3. +1
                        9 August 2022 22: 28
                        Sorry, but Verka the milliner is under Stalin ...
                        hi
                      4. 0
                        9 August 2022 22: 54
                        Quote: House 25 Sq. 380
                        Sobolevskaya worked for Legprom?

                        And now pay attention to the very construction of the phrase - "worked for Legprom".
                        That is, she was on his contract. smile
                        Perhaps she collected wool for him in the villages and camps for soldiers' boots ... smile
                        Or maybe she distributed orders from Legprom for cooperatives for the production of buttons, zippers and drapes ..? feel
                        There is some ambiguity in such a phrase. what bully
                        hi
                      5. 0
                        9 August 2022 23: 02
                        She headed the fashion house of the light industry - if about the plot ...
                        hi
                      6. 0
                        10 August 2022 00: 32
                        Mmm what . Well, the Fashion House could also be cooperative and contracted from Legprom. smile This happened then. Yes
                        Even if design cooperatives flourished in the country, the same Kamov and Mil.
                        hi
                      7. 0
                        10 August 2022 00: 56
                        I know Kamov's biography only from Wikipedia, where it says:
                        In 1930-1931. Nikolai Ilyich was the lead engineer for the production of the TOM-1 all-metal offshore torpedo bomber at the Marine Aircraft Design Bureau. In October 1931, he was appointed head of the TsAGI design team, which designed the new A-7 gyroplane by order of the Air Force.

                        On March 21, 1939, a decision was made to build a plant for the production of autogyros. Kamov became its chief designer and director, M. L. Mil became its deputy director.

                        In 1940, Kamov became the chief designer of the helicopter design bureau, later the OKB im. N. I. Kamova

                        This design bureau first belonged to plant #82 in Tushino, then was transferred to the site of plant #290 in Lyubertsy....

                        What time period are you writing about?
                        hi
                      8. +1
                        10 August 2022 01: 15
                        About the post-war.
                        When both Kamov and Mil created their own design cooperatives. Each of them proposed their own version of the helicopter - Kamov coaxial, Mil - classic, like Sikorsky's. Both of them were allocated the building of the former furniture factory, signed contracts with both of them ... they installed a plywood partition in the main workshop and set to work ...
                        It was in the post-war period that the cooperative movement developed at a special pace - the country had to be raised from ruins, production restored, and it was decided to stimulate the labor and creative initiative of citizens.
                        Of course, the cooperative epic of the famous design bureaus was not mentioned in the official history. Yes, and much has been blotted out of official history.
                        But in the sources I have indicated - Kozhinov, Platonov, Mukhin, there is about this. Even the cooperative prehistory of the famous design bureaus. That is why they called their design bureaus - "firm" ... however, as in a number of other aviation design bureaus. This is mainly what the employees themselves called their design bureaus.
                      9. 0
                        10 August 2022 01: 19
                        And with them, as with private traders, work was carried out under the heading "top secret"?
                        hi
                      10. 0
                        10 August 2022 01: 37
                        In fact, either Minaviaprom or the Moscow Region concluded an agreement / contract with them, so maybe they kept it secret. At the same time, they insured against failure - the contractor will not succeed - the cooperatives are to blame, it will work out - well done, get funding for development and a place at the aircraft factory. Then (or a little later) helicopters and Yakovlev Design Bureau took up - heavy cargo.
                        But the topic of cooperative prehistory was closed for a long time.
                        After all, one must understand that neither Kamov nor Mil were then eminent aircraft designers, and apparently they were careful to create their own state design bureaus for them. So they suggested - register design cooperatives, we will give you an order, a room for rent, and go for it.
                        At the same time in the USSR, televisions and radiograms (new fashionable news) were also produced ONLY by cooperatives. And at the highest technical and world level.
                        And the TV then was the most peep. heard / seen such - with a LENS? And then more advanced ones with an ever larger screen.
                        And what then were beautiful radiograms fellow - the main decoration of any apartment. It is from an aesthetic point of view. Yes
                        And the furniture!? good
                      11. +1
                        3 September 2022 18: 12
                        It is interesting in that sense that the cooperative movement of the 90s was a return to the decisions of Stalinism. Bayard, thanks.
                        It is my duty to look at the history of the Holodomor, I remember.
                      12. 0
                        3 September 2022 21: 31
                        Quote: Jonny_Su
                        It is interesting in that sense that the cooperative movement of the 90s was a return to the decisions of Stalinism.

                        That is why the so-called. "perestroika" was perceived by many then precisely as a return to the former - true socialism and supported it. But in fact, this turned out to be the first steps towards the restoration of capitalism in the wildest and most immoral form.
                        Quote: Jonny_Su
                        It is my duty to look at the history of the Holodomor, I remember.

                        I recommend reading the book "The Killer of Stalin and Beria" by Mukhin - about Khrushchev. The Holodomor in / in Ukraine, this is his and Kaganovich's handiwork.
            2. +2
              3 August 2022 22: 15
              There were no miracles of diversity in the economy of the USSR, do not compose. There was voluntarism, which made it possible to concentrate huge resources in certain areas (military-industrial complex, space, BAM, national outskirts) at the expense of the rest of the country.

              The USSR concentrated huge resources for the military-industrial complex and space, and the leadership of the Russian Federation concentrates huge resources for the purchase of imported trinkets, yachts, aircraft and the construction of palaces for a handful of idlers and traitors at the expense of the people. Which of these is worse for the country?

              As for "at the expense of the rest of the country", then you read the materials of the 40th Congress of the CPSU in terms of the five-year plan for different cities and compare with what has been done in your city over the past five years. And if your city is not Moscow or St. Petersburg, then you will see an abyss between what was done XNUMX years ago and now, and those plans were completed by the XNUMXth Congress.

              As for the national outskirts, let me remind you that, for example, about half of our gas was produced in the Turkmen SSR, and gas was one of the foundations of our exports.
              About the zoo of various weapons in the USSR, only the lazy does not write,

              This zoo is now forced to fight in Ukraine, because for 30 years our country has not been able to do anything that would be massive in combat units.
              And that zoo is nothing compared to the current zoo, we only have heavy fighters now armed with several different modifications of the Su-27, Su-30, Su-35 and Su-57 with different engines and different avionics, despite the fact that the total number of these aircraft ten times less. About the fact that there is not a single identical corvette 20380 on the Baltic Fleet, I generally keep quiet.
              at the same time, parity with NATO was lost, including in the navy. We don't need this "back to the future".

              Our fleet is now losing not to NATO, our Black Sea Fleet, after "re-equipping with modern types of weapons", under skillful leadership, is losing to Ukraine, which has practically no fleet. And in Soviet times, the Black Sea Fleet had an overwhelming advantage even over the Turks.
              China did not take Stalinist principles into service, the Chinese economy has been growing all this time on the open market and attracting new Western technologies for export, and then for domestic use.

              Therefore, the entire mining industry in China, all metallurgy, all heavy engineering, shipbuilding and aircraft building, all airports, railways and stations, all communications, including mobile operators, most of the automotive industry, banks, airlines belong to the state?
              You read these very principles of Stalin before making such statements and answer a simple question. Why did the USSR under the leadership of Stalin in 25 years turn from an uneducated, half-starved backward country into a superpower, the second economy in the world, with a GDP exceeding for the first time in the history of Russia the GDP of Germany and France combined without exporting oil and gas superpowers into a country with a GDP several times smaller than the GDP of France or Germany, despite the fact that only oil and gas revenues are more than state budget expenditures?
              1. -6
                3 August 2022 22: 59
                Building trinkets and palaces is honestly safer and less expensive than the military-industrial complex building an army to confront the whole world.
                There is nothing wrong with the fact that people have the opportunity to build their own yacht. Tax evasion, corruption and stratification are bad. But in order to live better, this is cured by the expansion of market relations and the development of legal force, and not by the initiation of executions.
                With a fleet of weapons in warehouses, we almost reached a critical lag behind Ukraine. And now everything is still not clear.
                That is, the accumulation of weapons did not fulfill the task of overcoming NATO and finally helps us to overcome a state that is several times smaller in all respects. Very high price.
                About the fleet - I answered above, I consider this a sign of the weakness of the Navy as a customer of weapons systems. I think that it will be more useful to strengthen the Naval Staff and organize an independent audit by the State Duma or the Federation Council.
                About the superpower that Russia was 30 years ago in 1992 after the collapse of the USSR, the top of the Communist Party, please tell someone else.
                1. +1
                  4 August 2022 03: 45
                  Building trinkets and palaces is honestly safer and less expensive than the military-industrial complex building an army to confront the whole world.

                  That is, you think that buying trinkets for dollars received from the sale of oil, gas, ore, metals and timber stolen from the people is good, as is the closure of thousands of modern enterprises and the dismissal of tens of millions of specialists. This is amazing!
                  There is nothing wrong with the fact that people have the opportunity to build their own yacht. Tax evasion, corruption and stratification are bad.

                  You are not aware that in our country to buy what is called a yacht, the vast majority can afford those who have either already stolen from the state or those who continue to do so. Or do you think that Sechin, Abramovich, Usmanov, Potanin, Miller, Prokhorov, Rotenberg, Diripaska and other abominations earned on yachts without committing the most serious crimes?
                  But in order to live better, this is cured by the expansion of market relations and the development of legal force, and not by the initiation of executions.

                  Our country has been playing market relations for 30 years with sad consequences for our country, and everyone who is friends with their heads understood this.
                  So Deripaska stole the Samara aircraft factory, once the largest in Europe, and what aircraft did he himself begin to produce there and in what quantity? He has money, there is a market economy, no one is chasing him, and he does not produce planes. Don't tell me why?
                  About the fleet - I answered above, I consider this a sign of the weakness of the Navy as a customer of weapons systems. I think that it will be more useful to strengthen the Naval Staff and organize an independent audit by the State Duma or the Federation Council.

                  Stop. You yourself are against the military-industrial complex and for trinkets.
                  Building trinkets and palaces is honestly safer and less expensive than the military-industrial complex building an army to confront the whole world.

                  Here is the command of the fleet and sawing money together with the military-industrial complex and sharing it with the deputies and those who come to inspect. And they are fine, they have money for yachts and trinkets, whatever you want.
                  1. -1
                    4 August 2022 19: 09
                    I am against the squandering of people's money)) especially since these funds were taken away from health care, education and normal roads throughout the country.
                    In this case, it is against the military-industrial complex, because it imposes its wishes on the army and navy through monopolists, and the current system of military procurement management indulges it. I do not believe in effective inspections within the Navy or the Ministry of Defense, the system will not give up its own, external supervision is needed.
                    1. -1
                      4 August 2022 20: 36
                      You already decide. Either you write that you are for the construction of palaces and trinkets for people's money, then you write that you are against the squandering of people's money.

                      Spending money on trinkets and palaces is theft of money from the people and this is a crime. But spending money on the army and the military-industrial complex is the same item of expenditure as education and medicine.
                      And by the way, you know.
                      Why did the number of schools and hospitals decrease by THREE TIMES from 2000 to 2015? Do you know that in a few years the Russian Federation will reach the level of the Republic of Ingushetia in 1915 in terms of the number of hospitals?
                      Why has the number of airports in the Russian Federation decreased from almost two thousand in 1991 to two hundred now, while there are FIVE thousand airports in Brazil?
                      And can you still answer what kind of aircraft, in your favorite market, Deripaska began to produce, having appropriated the Samara aircraft plant? Or can you answer what happened to the ZIL plant in a market economy, as well as to thousands of other enterprises?
                      1. -1
                        4 August 2022 22: 47
                        No, after a certain threshold, spending money on the military-industrial complex is launching expensive fireworks. Think that thousands of the smartest engineers and effective managers are doing fireworks in your country when there is literally no toilet paper in the country, gas is not installed in the villages, the automotive industry is underfunded and many roads are just gravel, in stores they "throw" goods in line or need "blat" ( I'm talking about the late USSR) - then it is obvious that the story "give more money to the military-industrial complex so that it heals our fears" does not work. And if we share personal money and people's money (collected in state and local budgets), then let people build yachts and palaces with their personal money. The main thing is that they do it not to the detriment of others and pay taxes.

                        The answer to the question of why the number of hospitals has halved is that the federal budget has significantly reduced spending on health care in favor of "national security." The numbers are easy to google. This reduction took place from 2011-2012, even Kudrin clashed on this topic with the hawk-Medvedev. Therefore, yes, the army, the FSB and the brainchild of Zolotov, the Russian Guard, were financed by hospitals and schools, and how many billions were spent there in secret articles to "ensure a coup in Ukraine" we are even more unknown. The more offensive the Ukrainian results.

                        Deripaska had attempts to produce planes, but it did not work out. State funding in the aviation industry now comes through Rostec (UAC or friendly companies, such as UZGA). This is rather inefficient, but this is a given, and there is no demand for more aircraft in Russia. Deregulation of small civil aviation could improve the situation, then new aircraft factories and airports would appear in the country. In Brazil, government regulation of the development, production and operation of aircraft is much softer, it is easier for companies to bring models to the market, and it is easier for people to buy them.
                        Moscow is now a financial and research center and classical factories will not survive there, even the assembly of the expensive Orthodox "Aurus" has been moved to Yelabuga. The Moscow government is dragging AZLK, but this will most likely be an ineffective subsidized story, it is better to close it, and cover demand from Togliatti. It's sad, but as I understand it, this is the case with megacities all over the world.
                      2. 0
                        9 August 2022 18: 16
                        It’s just that instead of the federal budget for healthcare, expenses began to be made from the federal budget + regional budgets, that is, there was redistribution sources of spending rather than cutting them...
                      3. 0
                        10 August 2022 00: 56
                        I climbed into the article Financing the health care system for 2021. From 2012 to 2018, funding from the consolidated budget decreased by 4% due to inflation. In 2019, oncology was let down, in 2020 they were fighting Covid, there was no real increase in accessibility.
                        You are right about redistribution, only at the same time, poor regions are falling short in terms of costs, while in Moscow everything is fine, there are additional payments to doctors and diagnostics.
                      4. 0
                        10 August 2022 01: 03
                        You are right about redistribution, only at the same time, poor regions are falling short in terms of costs, while in Moscow everything is fine, there are additional payments to doctors and diagnostics.

                        Where they "fail", there are transfers from the federal budget under the section "interbudgetary transfers" and "equalization" ....

                        The consolidated budget also DOES NOT include the MHIF and its regional MMIs, for which funding has been increased....
                        So, over the past 15 years, they have financed the construction of oncological and perinatal centers in dozens of constituent entities of the Russian Federation ....
                      5. 0
                        10 August 2022 01: 33
                        MHIF is definitely included, see
                        articles, regional compulsory medical insurance most likely too. Yes, funding was redistributed to them, with a general decrease.
                        Many note just the degradation of health care at the district and local level (everyone sees this in polyclinics) when centers are created in large cities. With a general lack of funding.
              2. -6
                3 August 2022 23: 27
                It is pointless to prove something to some sheep here! They will understand someday something, but not everything, and not today.
                Everything you state is correct.
                And Putin's "doctrine" is better to read in the toilet, and then only with a strong strain ...
                1. +1
                  3 August 2022 23: 48
                  I do not agree, it is necessary to communicate, I, perhaps, went over with the posts for today. I'll slow down.
              3. 0
                9 August 2022 18: 14
                GDP exceeding for the first time in the history of Russia the GDP of Germany and France combined without oil and gas exports, and the Russian Federation under the leadership of the Democrats has turned in 30 years from a superpower into a country with a GDP several times smaller than the GDP of France or Germany,

                You need to do something with the statistics: already in the early 80s, the USSR was inferior not only to the USA, but also to Japan and collective Germany (Germany + East Germany + West Berlin), and today's Russia from Western countries is inferior to the USA, Japan, is on a par with Germany and ahead of France ...
          3. +1
            4 August 2022 09: 38
            And all the effectiveness is only in propaganda.
            I will disappoint you. There is no effectiveness in the propaganda of the Russian Federation. It is designed for, and yet the society of the Russian Federation also consists of people. Remained, not all destroyed.
      2. -11
        3 August 2022 07: 45
        Quote: bayard
        Here we will win.

        Bang your head against the wall and you will definitely feel better!
        1. +3
          3 August 2022 10: 36
          Be silent, Kyrgyz, be silent, do not disturb Russian melancholy
          hi lol
          1. 0
            3 August 2022 12: 26
            do not disturb Russian melancholy

            why is everyone so tensed and depressed
            maybe it's not all that bad
            RCCs have become smaller, lighter and hypersonic in size
            Granite, Volcano > Onyxes > Zircons
            MRK pr.22800 Karakurt may not be so seaworthy
            but 8 cells under RCC and PLUR, where even 2 Zircons are critically dangerous for AUG
            1. 0
              3 August 2022 13: 23
              If you look more broadly, then the new doctrine just means a departure from the strategy of protecting your own fleet and submarine missile carriers in general. That is, one should expect, as it is now fashionable to say, the projection of force in many directions.
              1. 0
                3 August 2022 13: 32
                2 RCC Zircon is just that and NOT protection
                we should expect another reduction in the size of missiles of both anti-ship missiles and missiles
                it will be a revolution
                for better stability and seaworthiness, it would be advisable to build RTOs pr. 1239 Sivuch - a catamaran scheme for 16 anti-ship missiles, 32 missiles
                fiction ??? - so the rockets will become "smaller" !!!



                1. 0
                  3 August 2022 15: 12
                  And this will again be a defensive strategy aimed only at sinking attacking enemy ships. Such a strategy also has the right to life, but now it seems that changes are coming.
                  1. 0
                    3 August 2022 15: 25
                    16 RCC / PLUR / SLCM is an attack weapon
                    32 SAM is a weapon of defense
                    1. 0
                      3 August 2022 15: 29
                      RCC is a means of attacking ships, but not against the enemy on the coast.
                      1. 0
                        3 August 2022 15: 33
                        16 RCC / PLUR / SLCM is an attack weapon

                        SLCM - sea-launched cruise missile
                        by the way
                        RCC Onyx worked perfectly along the coast to a depth of 100 km in Syria
                      2. +2
                        3 August 2022 16: 15
                        It's not about that at all. A missile can be launched from anywhere and from anything, even from the waters of the Caspian Sea, even from a ground installation. An aircraft carrier or helicopter carrier is capable of operating massively and quickly along the coast, at a considerable distance from bases, which small ships cannot do.
                      3. 0
                        3 August 2022 16: 20
                        we are waiting for the laying of new SSBNs, Borey-B avenue, in order to bring for modernization by 2040, probably the first Boreas (not -A): Dolgoruky, Nevsky, Monomakh under the Caliber SLCM
              2. +4
                4 August 2022 12: 06
                Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
                the new doctrine just means a departure from the strategy of protecting its own fleet and submarine missile carriers in the main

                Most likely in particular! The projection of forces has not stopped for 20 years.
            2. +7
              3 August 2022 13: 54
              Not every karakurt will swim to the AUG ... lol
              1. 0
                3 August 2022 15: 28
                no problem to reach
                at RTOs, Karakurt Ave., the task is to drive the AUG away from the coast
                example. RTOs left the Cam Ranh naval base to remove 200 miles - 360 km
                + range of anti-ship missiles Zircon along a low-altitude trajectory at least 340 km
                AUG will have to keep a distance from the Cam Ranh naval base 800 km
                and the combat radius of the deck F-18s is only 700 km
                + Naval base Cam Ranh covers patrol 4 Su-35 at a distance of 100 km
                that is, carrier-based F-18s have no chance at all even with PTB
                + more air defense systems S-400, S-300V4, Buk, Tor, diesel-electric submarines, BPRK Bastion, Bal ...
                1. +3
                  3 August 2022 15: 45
                  And how will RTOs reach Cam Ranh !?
                  1. -1
                    3 August 2022 15: 50
                    it was an example.
                    let's look at the point of technical support elsewhere (???)
                    just not the Kuril Islands, it has its own specifics
                    and so little will change from a change of place
                    some criteria will increase - some will decrease
                    yet we have only in the complex - and not on the moon
                    1. +2
                      3 August 2022 16: 08
                      RTOs are only on their shores, they won’t reach any other base by the harsh sea, there are no DMZ ships and not singles, but groups - there’s nothing to talk about
                      1. 0
                        3 August 2022 16: 13
                        RTOs only on their shores

                        I agree, that’s why the naval base is needed, even in Egypt
                        no other base will be reached by the harsh sea

                        RTO Buyan flat bottoms in Tartus remember, 2 across the English Channel in the storm walked (!)
                      2. +4
                        4 August 2022 12: 20
                        Quote: novel xnumx
                        RTOs are only on their shores, they will not reach any other base through the harsh sea,

                        Oh, pilot, pilot ... there is no romance in you, even though they called you Romka recourse
                        Motherland said! The sailor replied ... Yes!
                        Quote: novel xnumx
                        no DMZ ships and not singles

                        In 2024, the Northern Fleet will receive a chic naval strike force ... the cruiser Nakhimov and 4 beautiful, seaworthy frigates!
                        Relax, you will have everything, just work honestly! laughing
                  2. +5
                    4 August 2022 12: 09
                    Quote: novel xnumx
                    how will RTOs reach Cam Ranh !?

                    On foot! laughing
                    Mosquitoes pr. 183-R from the Baltic through the Atlantic went to Cuba .... count up! wink
                2. +2
                  3 August 2022 15: 51
                  that is, carrier-based F-18s have no chance at all

                  No chance for what?
                  Because writing this
                  and the combat radius of the deck F-18s is only 700 km

                  You forgot to take into account the radius of the weapons used.
                  1. 0
                    3 August 2022 15: 55
                    You forgot to take into account the radius of the weapons used.

                    consciously, unaware
                    because there will be an air battle
                    Su-35s are calmly giving out the control center for the S-400 or S-300V4
                    patrol 4 Su-35, 5 minute readiness another 8 Su-35 = 12 x 6 = 72 UR V-V up to 150 km
                    and only then when the F-18 decks (48) run out (1,5 multiple defeat)
                    AUG is fired with sub-sonic Axes from a range of 800 km,
                    just under our ZGRLS, S-400, S-300V4, Beeches, Torahs, Shells
                    scenarios can be varied - just some criteria will be modified
                    these are recognized facts by the USA themselves of zone A2 / AD
                    1. -1
                      3 August 2022 16: 13
                      Su-35s are calmly giving out the control center for the S-400 or S-300V4

                      Sorry what?
                      because there will be an air battle

                      Why because?
                      1. -1
                        3 August 2022 16: 16
                        these are recognized facts of the USA itself - zone A2 / AD
                      2. -1
                        3 August 2022 17: 00
                        these are recognized facts of the USA itself - zone A2 / AD

                        And?
                        1) You absolutize the concept of "access denied zone" due to the distorted presentation of this concept in the media.
                        2) This does not answer my questions from the previous post.
                      3. The comment was deleted.
                    2. -3
                      3 August 2022 21: 50
                      Crazy drug addict
                3. -3
                  3 August 2022 21: 48
                  What nonsense is this.
          2. +4
            4 August 2022 07: 23
            Russian melancholy must be periodically shaken!
            hi laughing
      3. -3
        3 August 2022 09: 34
        One thing is clear - it's time to turn off the Internet in Kashchenko.
      4. +1
        3 August 2022 09: 35
        It hurts to read your comment, but you are right! Alas and ah!!! (((
      5. -1
        3 August 2022 10: 08
        Sorry, your solution is to regularly shoot top management for not completing assignments (like in China). But our top management now is all proteges of the country's leadership (USC, Rostec, Ak Bars shipyards). How and who should be shot?
        It seems to me that this is precisely the situation of a weak customer, when the fleet cannot develop a concept and requirements that support political doctrine. And they hang crap on him from different sides as part of "increasing defense capability." It must be noted that our military naval art is at an even lower level than military land and aviation art. And to strengthen the naval headquarters in the broad sense of the word. When we focus on the MIC, and not on the objective function, we will get the absorption of funds anyway.
        1. +4
          3 August 2022 12: 02
          Quote: Jonny_Su
          Excuse me, your solution is to regularly shoot top management for not completing tasks? (as in China).

          Only if the degree of guilt is proven and corresponds to the degree of social responsibility. I am for the responsibility of both officials and government contractors. And not only in the military-industrial complex. And such responsibility must be criminal, because the damage caused to the state and defense from the disruption of the state defense order, or the theft (development) of funds for the development of something there without result, from these people (officials and contractors) is huge.
          In general, in an ideal state, the positions of officials and economic leaders should frighten ... to convulsions and colic, frighten any potential embezzlers, lazy careerists and other pests. Fear precisely RESPONSIBILITY. Then only responsible, conscientious, loving their work and working for results leaders will be in power and at the head of contracting organizations.
          And the higher the post, the higher the responsibility must be.
          If, through the fault of an embezzler, a pest, or just a lazy sybarite, the industry collapses, the country's defense capability is undermined, the state defense order is disrupted, or another no lesser degree of harm is inflicted, there can be no question of any mitigation of the measure of responsibility, except for the "Higher measure of social protection". Retribution must come swiftly and inevitably.
          And in this state of affairs, they will run away from power like cockroaches, as the "frightened patriots" quite recently fled, all these sleek loafers and sybarites.
          And those who will work and give results will come .
          Quote: Jonny_Su
          But our top management now is all proteges of the country's leadership (USC, Rostec, Ak Bars shipyards).

          Alas, this is so, in the country of victorious wild and unbridled capitalism.
          Quote: Jonny_Su
          like in china

          China has implemented a multi - structured Stalinist economic system . Notice that there are no more billionaires there than in the USA. smile
          BUT .
          All these fabulously enriched people carry an obligatory social burden, participate in the life of the country and society, represent their country (and not their loved ones) abroad, and all work together for success and prosperity, to strengthen the defense capability and independence of their country.
          And what is this class of successful and very rich people like in our country?
          Where do they store and where do they invest their unmeasured capital? What social burden do they bear for the benefit of the Society?
          ZERO !
          Not only that, they inflict colossal losses and problems on the country, corrupt officials, collude with external enemies, corrupt society with their own immoral example and the example of their offspring ...
          Which of these rich and famous came out in support of the NWO?
          Which of them did anything to help the fighting Army, the wounded in hospitals?
          Which of them, having learned about the lack of communications equipment, thermal imagers, mavics, shorts / socks, etc. in the troops ... at their own expense, went to the same China for these mavics and radio stations, UAVs and thermal imagers?
          NOBODY .
          Moreover, others presented their own losses to the state with a wish for compensation from the state ...
          And the funds and everything necessary are collected and taken to the troops by ordinary citizens - not favored by the authorities, deceived by it many times ...
          So on whom does the state stand, the Russian one?
          During the Second World War, the children of party and state leaders of the USSR fought on the fronts, died and were injured, mutilated. All the children of Stalin fought, both his own sons and his adopted ones. And everyone else.
          So why in the country of victorious capitalism, all those favored by the authorities turned out to be "frightened patriots"?
          Maybe this is the result and fruit of that very upbringing?
          And always brings up power.
          By its fruits the tree is known.
          Quote: Jonny_Su
          It seems to me that this is precisely the situation of a weak customer, when the fleet cannot develop a concept and requirements that support political doctrine.

          To begin with, we would have to restore the commander-in-chief, so that each commander-in-chief and his branch of service would have all the necessary staff. And the state defense order, in terms of a kind of troops, should be presented and prepared precisely in the bowels of a particular main command, by specialized specialists.
          And in our country everything is at the mercy of industry, which is headed by the right and kind people. Which is easier to enter into the MO or AP than to accept an order from a future user, stand at the same time on the hood and be responsible for the quality of their production. And this is not only about the Navy.
          In our MO, everything was captured by the rear.
          The VKS is commanded by a tanker (sorry - a motorized rifleman).
          But the most important thing is that absolute impunity and irresponsibility flourishes in the higher echelons.
          Nobody is responsible for the result.
          The authorities live in their own parallel reality, and they seem to be very surprised that for a war (sorry - NVO) a combat-ready, well-armed and equipped Army is needed. And the number thereof should correspond to the tasks ahead.
          The quality of management depends on the quality of the manager. Incl. on his ability to assemble and motivate a workable and efficient team.
          1. -3
            3 August 2022 13: 25
            I agree with your last paragraphs. But who will shoot in the scenario of your proposal? The same power. And how do you think she will do it? That's it. Let it be better for each branch of the military to receive the necessary staff at the headquarters, the country will come out cheaper.

            In general, I drown for an independent committee on the army and navy from parliament (that's how it is in Britain, with the White Paper and all that). This is also important, you can start with an independent audit by the representative government.
      6. +1
        3 August 2022 12: 05
        You are tendentious and sometimes write false information, or rather you are lying! The serial Chinese frigate 054A costs $ 348 million, Our 22350 costs 18 billion rubles, at today's exchange rate about $ 300 million. Taking into account, the longer the series, the cheaper the ship. How much the Chinese built and how much We. According to performance characteristics, our frigate is better than the Chinese one! Why is the author lying about the GTU, the second set was loaded onto the next frigate in the series, Admiral Isakov. You either do not own the information or purposefully distort the facts! (((
        1. +3
          3 August 2022 12: 29
          Quote: Sergey39
          Our 22350 costs 18 billion rubles, at today's exchange rate, about $ 300 million.

          Sergey, I don’t know whether out of ignorance or consciously, but it’s you who are misleading people. 22350 has never cost 18 billion rubles. The indicated amount is the estimated cost of the frigate of project 11356, which was called the year of commercials in 2012, if not earlier. In reality, 17 billion rubles. it cost not a frigate, but a project 20380 corvette, and not today, but in 2014. Taking into account inflation, a corvette in the same configuration will cost 25 billion today, and a frigate 22350 - one and a half times more.
          Quote: Sergey39
          Why is the author lying about the GTU, the second set was loaded onto the next frigate in the series, Admiral Isakov.

          it makes sense to talk about this when the first domestic set of gearboxes is handed over to the fleet at Head. While there, according to some reports, everything is not very rosy.
          1. -5
            3 August 2022 14: 37
            All questions to Wikipedia.
            1. +4
              3 August 2022 15: 10
              Quote: Sergey39
              All questions to Wikipedia.

              I have no questions for the wiki. The cost of corvettes is in the report of Severnaya Verf, which built them, clippings from them were published by bmpd. And the link to the CAST from the wiki was valid back in 2011 :))) Just type in the search engine "According to the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST), the minimum price of a frigate 22350 is 18 billion rubles." and look at the time of some links to this news :)))
              I once read the CAST publication itself, but I can’t find it right away. If you read it carefully, it will be clear that we are not talking about 22350
          2. -2
            3 August 2022 15: 30
            Other sources $400 million
            1. +4
              3 August 2022 17: 11
              Quote: Sergey39
              Other sources $400 million

              Flashed and such an assessment. On the same wiki. So 10 years ago, or even more. But the cost of 22350 from a somewhat reliable source, alas, I never came across
        2. +1
          3 August 2022 22: 50
          Quote: Sergey39
          You are tendentious and sometimes write false information, or rather you are lying!

          Quote: Sergey39
          The serial Chinese frigate 054A costs 348 million rubles.

          The cost of the Chinese 054A is relative to their cost to the Pakistani Navy, last year's data.
          Quote: Sergey39
          Our 22350 costs 18 billion rubles, at today's exchange rate, about $ 300 million.

          Don't get confused and don't confuse people. 18 billion rubles cost (precisely cost) frigate 11356 for 2012 - 2013 Approximately the same cost at the same time corvette pr. 20380 (17 - 18 billion rubles). The cost of the frigate 22350 is given at the cost of the head "Gorshkov" - 550 million dollars. And I do not think that the next ones after it will cost less simply because they lingered on the stocks for many years, and this is also an expense. And to this day there are no power plants for them - operational ones, which have confirmed their readiness by sea trials on a real ship.
          Quote: Sergey39
          How much the Chinese built and how much We.

          The Chinese have over 30. But comparing 054A with our 22350 is incorrect, these are ships of different generations and quality. 054A can be compared with our 11356 - the same air defense system, approximately similar to the radar, the same type of SAC, helicopter, old torpedoes. But the Chinese have a 2 times larger missile defense system, but the anti-ship missiles are an analogue of our X-35s. Nui is faster than ours - 30 knots on a gas turbine, against 27 for a Chinese on diesel engines.
          Quote: Sergey39
          the second set was loaded onto the next frigate in the series, Admiral Isakov. You or do not own the information

          I own this information. I just still don’t have information about the readiness for sea trials of the Admiral Golovko from the First Domestic. I really hoped that in the spring and early summer the running would still take place, but the summer is coming to a close, and nothing is heard about the upcoming running. And this means that this one, already the "second first", also does not shine with the quality and readiness of the travel gears. You can build as many of these unfinished, non-working power plants as you like, you can even load them into ship hulls, but nothing will change from this in domestic shipbuilding. Until the first ship with such a power plant goes to sea for sea and proves by test practice that the power plant has been created, is working, delivers the declared characteristics, is reliable and ready for operation.
          And this is not.
          Despite the periodic ringing in the ears from propaganda.
          Quote: Sergey39
          or purposefully distort the facts!

          Immerse yourself in the topic without enthusiasm and hatred, and see for yourself in everything. I have been waiting for sea trials of this power plant for several years, because if this takes place, then all subsequent ships can be built quickly and rhythmically. And if not ... then there will be no Fleet in the Russian Federation.
      7. kig
        0
        3 September 2022 11: 15
        Quote: bayard
        But now there is a Doctrine
        Here we will win.

        Here you are snickering and spitting, but in Vladivostok, by the way, they are going to produce nanotechnology for cars. Don't believe? So it is written in the news: to produce nanotechnology. What else do we have in the Far East? That's right, we have the Zvezda plant there, and from it to Vladivostok, by the way, is only 140 km along the road, and 40 km in a straight line. It's nearby! Soon they will start producing nanotechnologies for ships there too.
      8. -1
        23 October 2022 19: 35
        Ah ah ah! And you forgot about "? cutting" the budget! Not good! This is the holy of holies of traitors and thieves from the Russian oligarchy and bureaucracy!!!
        1. 0
          23 October 2022 21: 59
          Quote: EFIM LYUBIN
          And you forgot about "? cutting" the budget!

          I can't stand these clichés and mantras.
          In the United States, too, they have always cut the budget, but at the same time they built warships and aircraft. Stealing / making money from profits is normal, and inflated prices for military-industrial complex products are the subject of agreements between interested parties.
          But after all, in the Russian Federation they almost always steal at a loss. "Master the budget" and not produce / deliver anything to the customer ... this is almost the norm of "effective management" and "responsible entrepreneurs".
          But I treat the existing reality as an ordinary natural disaster or weather phenomena. It is foolish to threaten the sky for untimely "rain", "dry", that it is dark at night, and the sun is too hot during the day.
          So I treat the "naval doctrine" as a weather forecast, which with a high degree of probability will not come true.
    2. -1
      3 August 2022 10: 23
      They forgot about the Poseidons! How so?! They don't interfere with laundry. They will calmly furrow the depths of the hole. There is a real danger that the tsunam suddenly and all the linen - in dust (along with the hole).
      In short, they promised the people "Poseidons", but in the doctrine they did not even remember. Not good!
    3. 0
      3 August 2022 12: 35
      It is better to build the first 50-60 aircraft carriers before winter, then they will start washing clothes in the hole, they will interfere

      They will build on the Black Sea coast, in the Yalta region it does not freeze. Enough space and linen to wash and budget to spend.
    4. 0
      10 August 2022 23: 58
      All our doctrines are very abstract. Everywhere it is written that we are against everything bad and for everything good. This is Manilovism! Sanctions against us are on the rise. It is possible that we will soon find ourselves in the same isolation as North Korea. We would like to protect the Northern Sea Route and the routes by which we transport liquefied gas to China and India.
    5. 0
      3 October 2022 16: 49
      Seafarers can smoke Bamboo on the shore until the end of the NWO wassat tongue
  2. +9
    3 August 2022 05: 40
    Here it is already clear that the implementation of the Doctrine will take more than one year and more than one trillion rubles.


    First, we need to ensure that Russia has those years and trillions. This is now much more of a concern than white spots in the Doctrine.
    1. 0
      3 August 2022 10: 33
      Fucked-up directors of military-industrial complex enterprises (including USC) rub their hands happily. USC promised to build helicopter carriers in 5-6 years. I wonder if at least one is in service? The French built two in 9 months. So or not?
      1. +4
        3 August 2022 11: 45
        Quote: Bronik
        USC promised to build helicopter carriers in 5-6 years. I wonder if at least one is in service?

        Leave them alone. It was not supposed to build helicopter carriers there, but to help the Black Sea plant. In addition, they were laid down only in 2020, so the years you recommended have not yet passed. By the way, they were going to build them longer - 8-9 years.
        In general, there is a political decision, and it was not the USC that made it.
        Quote: Bronik
        The French built two in 9 months. So or not?

        The first ship under the contract had to build 36 months, the second - 48 months.
  3. -1
    3 August 2022 05: 40
    The cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov" has been under repair since 1999. True, the factory ones promise to soon bring it to sea trials.
    1. +6
      3 August 2022 06: 50
      Since 1999, the cruiser has been laid up. Under repair and modernization since 2013.
      1. Tim
        -2
        3 August 2022 08: 50
        The cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov" is another cut of budget funds.
      2. +3
        3 August 2022 10: 29
        24 years out of action. Do you think this is normal? Weird.
        1. -7
          3 August 2022 10: 45
          Quote: Bronik
          24 years out of action. Do you think this is normal? Weird.

          For 14 years the cruiser was in the sludge, 9 years under repair with modernization. Thousands of kilometers of cables and equipment, missile weapons are changed on the cruiser. There is nothing to be surprised here. Sevmash will hand over the cruiser to the fleet. The admirals saw that the repair and modernization of a heavy nuclear cruiser was a rotten idea.
    2. -3
      3 August 2022 09: 40
      Promise doesn't mean.
  4. +1
    3 August 2022 05: 45
    The doctrine is not about anything, and if you take the specifics, as the author did, then you get a shaking of the air. But at least they gave birth to something. In my concept, the doctrine should clearly prescribe the actions of the fleet and fleets with existing combat units and of course with an eye to the future. For example, the Black Sea Fleet: control and protection of the economic interests of the Russian Federation and allies at sea, the presence (so far) and the same functions in the Mediterranean, together with the allies (Iran) control over the Red Sea, with access to the Indian Ocean, also the Atlantic Ocean.
    1. +3
      3 August 2022 07: 48
      Quote: Mikhail Maslov
      For example, the Black Sea Fleet: control and protection of the economic interests of the Russian Federation and allies at sea, the presence (so far) and the same functions in the Mediterranean, together with the allies (Iran) control over the Red Sea, with access to the Indian Ocean, also the Atlantic Ocean.

      Do you propose to base 15 cruisers, 40 destroyers and 60 frigates in Sevastopol???
      1. -3
        3 August 2022 10: 14
        And what, an excellent Black Sea-Mediterranean fleet would be ...
      2. +2
        3 August 2022 10: 38
        And... Aircraft carrier! Definitely an aircraft carrier!!!!
        1. +4
          4 August 2022 07: 03
          Quote: novel xnumx
          And... Aircraft carrier!

          One for such a crowd? what It will not be enough! recourse
          1. 0
            4 August 2022 10: 33
            And then everything will not fit
      3. +1
        3 August 2022 12: 13
        Quote: Serg65
        Do you propose to base 15 cruisers, 40 destroyers and 60 frigates in Sevastopol???

        The staff will only be happy. For the northern shore of the Black Sea is in every way better than the southern shore of the White Sea. smile
        1. +4
          4 August 2022 07: 05
          Quote: Alexey RA
          The staff will only be happy

          For such a number of personnel in the city, it is necessary to open a pedagogical institute and a couple of culinary technical schools ... wassat hi
          1. +2
            4 August 2022 10: 21
            Quote: Serg65
            For such a number of personnel in the city, it is necessary to open a pedagogical institute and a couple of culinary technical schools ... wassat hi

            Hehehehe .... EMNIP, on Bigler it was that in the USSR, next to each military educational institution, for some reason there was either a ped or a honey. smile
            1. +4
              4 August 2022 11: 03
              Quote: Alexey RA
              on the Bigler

              Kronstadt served the technical school of light industry, the Sevastopol-construction college, the shipbuilding college, the instrument-making institute .... any Black Sea sailor knew the hostel on Bazhenov laughing
              Well, the Sevastopol VOKhRA was the forefront of production in this regard !! In the same Murmansk universities, almost like in Moscow!!!
      4. -2
        3 August 2022 12: 16
        Why in Sevastopol? There is Tartus, to make a good naval base and not only, to create a naval infantry brigade with a large landing craft, to place a MTR regiment, to place at least an airborne brigade, to create good maintenance and repair capacities, to make it as autonomous as possible.
        1. +4
          4 August 2022 07: 11
          Let's start from the end...
          Quote: Mikhail Maslov
          make it as autonomous as possible.

          How is that? Place defense, oil refineries, flour mills, bakeries, meat processing plants in Syria? Sewing and kenaf factories? Interesting plot you drew!
          Quote: Mikhail Maslov
          There is Tartus, to make a good naval base and not only, to create a naval infantry brigade with a large landing craft

          And you want to shove all this into Tartus? Well, if only three floors and seven rows .....
          1. 0
            4 August 2022 09: 13
            That is how to expand the existing base and start building a new one, perhaps somewhat, "sitting in the Black Sea and declaring some kind of priorities simply does not make sense.
            1. +4
              4 August 2022 11: 05
              Quote: Mikhail Maslov
              That is how

              Long live the Syrian Autonomous Province good soldier bully
      5. 0
        3 August 2022 12: 23
        No, of course, Sevastopol is only for the Black Sea, but Tartus should become a large multi-purpose base and not only the Navy.
    2. +2
      3 August 2022 12: 12
      Quote: Mikhail Maslov
      For example, the Black Sea Fleet: control and protection of the economic interests of the Russian Federation and allies at sea, the presence (so far) and the same functions in the Mediterranean, together with the allies (Iran) control over the Red Sea, with access to the Indian Ocean, also the Atlantic Ocean.

      The point is small - to change the geographical and political maps. For all the plans for the Black Sea Fleet rests on a small nuance in the form of the Straits and the member country that controls them NATO aggressive bloc. smile
      1. 0
        3 August 2022 16: 52
        But somehow, large landing ships passed into the Black Sea, before the start of the NWO.
        1. +4
          4 August 2022 07: 17
          Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
          But somehow, large landing ships passed into the Black Sea, before the start of the NWO.

          And who prevented them from passing through the straits before the start of the NWO? The whole ballet began just after the start of the SVO ...
          1. 0
            4 August 2022 09: 30
            And then, in general, they will not be able to walk through the straits, right?
            1. +4
              4 August 2022 11: 07
              They can after...
              To be honest, I did not understand your interest in the straits ....
  5. 0
    3 August 2022 05: 56
    Quote: Mikhail Maslov
    But at least they gave birth to something.


    I would like to understand - why? Is it really a concern for us, the commentators, so that we have something to talk about?
  6. 0
    3 August 2022 06: 33
    In the USSR there were state interests. Now the word "state" is forbidden made in the US image and likeness. Either federal or national. The current ruler of Russia with tenacity worthy of a better application is trying to instill that Russia is a multinational country. But Russian 80%. So when they talk about national doctrine, what kind of nation do they mean. Maybe the Democrats created the Russian nation?
    Well, in general, it's not even a matter of doctrine. Stop praying for money in your pockets, start doing at least something for Russia.
    1. -5
      3 August 2022 07: 36
      that Russia is a multinational country. But Russian 80%.

      So it's the remaining 20% ​​of nationals who are to blame for everything? Approximately so reasoned and Hitler, only about the Jews.
    2. -2
      3 August 2022 07: 51
      Quote: Gardamir
      start doing something for Russia.

      Wake up, you've been sleeping too long!
      Quote: Gardamir
      In the USSR there were state interests

      Feeding African cannibals, is this in the public interest?
      Quote: Gardamir
      Russian 80%. So when they talk about national doctrine, what kind of nation do they mean.

      Are you sure you are a left wing comrade? what
      1. +13
        3 August 2022 09: 31
        Quote: Serg65
        Feeding African cannibals, is this in the public interest?

        In general, the Soviet Union learned and trained specialists for state and economic management for these (just thrown off the colonial yoke) states. Many thousands of engineers, teachers, doctors. In fact, they created their economy on their own loans. And the return of these loans (deferred) fell just in the 90s. The traitors did not collapse our country; in the 90s, the USSR was waiting for a sharp qualitative breakthrough. and in everything - in science, technology, level and quality of life. Including due to the beginning of the return of loans by the countries of Asia, Africa and Latin America - both in money and in commodity deliveries. Their economies, which had grown stronger by that time, were OUR sales markets. A third of all passenger and cargo aircraft in the world was Soviet-made.
        Quote: Serg65
        Feeding African cannibals, is this in the public interest?

        lol Yes . Our Fishing Fleet for UN money (!) fed West Africa with fish. Helped organize its processing.
        And urgent food supplies during crop failure and famine also helped. And there to this day they remember it with gratitude.
        Recoil?
        And where does Rusal bring alumina to its factories from?
        And thanks to whose good memory are African countries now standing in line so that Wagner musicians create armies for them? And that it is Russian business that would come to them instead of the greedy French, British, Americans and other Europeans?
        In Africa, Russians are remembered from the time of the Soviet Union. There, many of the elite know Russian, have Russian wives, and they see and know the difference between a Russian and a European.
        I have a friend - a wonderful guy Benes Ayo. His father is from Uganda. He studied in the USSR, got married there. Military. His mother remained in Riga after the collapse of the USSR. He studied in England and joined the English Communist Party there. A man of ideas, literate and very correct views. Here in Donetsk he was nicknamed Black Lenin - for his fiery speech at the proclamation of the Donetsk Republic. He came here with the beginning of the Maidan, participated in the Russian Spring, in the Crimean Spring, fought in both corps of the LDNR - transferred to different units. I don't know where now, I haven't seen it for a long time. So, people like Benes Ayo are the result of Soviet foreign and national policy.
        And I don’t even admit the thought that it was all in vain.
        1. +2
          3 August 2022 12: 38
          Quote: bayard
          In general, the Soviet Union learned and trained specialists for state and economic management for these (just thrown off the colonial yoke) states. Many thousands of engineers, teachers, doctors. In fact, they created their economy on their own loans. And the return of these loans (deferred) fell just in the 90s.

          So why didn't these African and Latin American countries, which developed under the wise Soviet leadership, return their loans in the 90s? Where did the economy of Angola (with its diamonds), Ethiopia, Mozambique, Nicaragua go?
          And the USSR did especially well with Somalia.
          1. -2
            3 August 2022 16: 00
            So why didn't these African and Latin American countries, which developed under the wise Soviet leadership, return their loans in the 90s?

            So it was not necessary to join the Paris Club, who is the doctor? True, there was no choice, it was painfully obliged for the purchased "beads" turned out to be.
          2. 0
            3 August 2022 23: 11
            Quote: Alexey RA
            did not return loans in the 90s?

            Who to return?
            The USSR has sunk into oblivion, in its place there are 15 independent states with completely different names, plus a bunch of scammers already in 1992 rushed around Africa with "written authority" to collect Soviet debts (they say they bought these debts and now ... well, you understand ) . I was told about these cunning guys at the same time - in 1992, by one senior employee of the Soviet Foreign Trade.
            And what was the "poor blacks" to do?
            Correctly Yes - send them all.
            They sent.
            And then the GDP solemnly forgave them everything, but ... our PMCs, businessmen immediately appeared in these countries ... and somehow things went on. Maybe something will burn out.
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Where did the economy of Angola (with its diamonds), Ethiopia, Mozambique, Nicaragua go?

            And where would they be without our help and our markets?
            After all, they were part of the Commonwealth of Socialist countries. Or have Eastern European countries been more successful? Or did they fall from the sky after the self-surrender of a pretzel?
            And the US and England needed colonies, not prosperous independent countries.
            1. +1
              4 August 2022 10: 18
              Quote: bayard
              Who to return?

              The country that has assumed obligations to repay the external debt of the USSR.
              1. 0
                4 August 2022 19: 53
                Quote: Alexey RA
                The country that has assumed obligations to repay the external debt of the USSR.

                This is understandable and desirable for us. But the borrower turned out to have so many reasons to doubt this and pull the cat by the genitals ... and then, after all, they have another excuse - we are poor, hungry, you left us, there is nothing to give back ... So we had to gather everyone in Sochi and solemnly write off debts. But not just like that, but for preferences for our business, new trade contracts and political orientation.
                And after the concerts of the Comrade Wagner Orchestra in the Central African Republic, things went much more fun - they lined up for our musicians, they called on the tour. And our business with them is tied.
            2. +3
              4 August 2022 11: 47
              Quote: bayard
              Who to return?

              what Interesting girls dance! Russia immediately declared itself the legal successor of the USSR, or is that not it?
              Quote: bayard
              And what was the "poor blacks" to do?

              The poor blacks immediately lost their memory and completely forgot the address Moscow, st. Ilyinka d.23/16 entrance 11?
              1. -1
                4 August 2022 19: 59
                Quote: Serg65
                The poor blacks immediately lost their memory and completely forgot the address Moscow, st. Ilyinka d.23/16 entrance 11?

                Negro looks stupid. Negra when nada is very cunning.
                In the 90s, all sorts of adventurers did not appear for these debts. An employee of Vneshtorg told me in the summer of 1992 that cunning guys for 500 million dollars. redeemed the debts of all African countries for tens of billions of dollars. and went to the Negroes for debts ... But apparently the Negroes met them unkindly, because such attempts did not seem to be repeated again, and the debts of the Negroes to Russia remained ... but were not paid.
                For Negro is poor.
                And borrowed in rubles.
                And go with them to settle this. After all, almost no one succeeded.
                That's why they wrote off debts at interest - for future benefits and preferences.
                Somehow it turned out that way.
        2. +1
          4 August 2022 11: 27
          Quote: bayard
          The traitors did not collapse our country; in the 90s, the USSR was waiting for a sharp qualitative breakthrough. and in everything - in science, technology, level and quality of life

          And why did you decide that there would be a breakthrough?
          Quote: bayard
          due to the beginning of the repayment of loans by the countries of Asia, Africa and Latin America

          I would not like to break your illusions, but .... the money that the Union invested in Egypt, Syria, Somalia, Ethiopia, the SSR would never have received back!
          Quote: bayard
          such as Benes Ayo, and are the result of Soviet foreign and national policy

          Unfortunately, even the wonderful man Benes Ayo lives in Donetsk, and does not occupy at least some leading positions in his homeland ..... the Americans once bought Africans in the bud. The dollar turned out to be stronger than the complete works of Comrade Lenin!
          1. 0
            4 August 2022 20: 24
            Quote: Serg65
            And why did you decide that there would be a breakthrough?

            This is a theoretical premise based on the possibilities of the Soviet economy and the opportunities that were opening up. Of course, there was no task for such a jerk. On the contrary, the task was to prevent such a breakthrough, provoke internal discontent and close socialism with the division of the country and privatization for the right people. I knew some of these people personally.
            Quote: Serg65
            I would not like to break your illusions, but .... the money that the Union invested in Egypt, Syria, Somalia, Ethiopia, the SSR would never have received back!

            Investments are always risky. The United States, for example, has invested a lot in South Vietnam. request
            Egypt was the result of an exchange in a large conspiracy called "Detente". We went to Vietnam, they - Egypt. For even then Egypt cost us dearly.
            Quote: Serg65
            Syria

            I don’t agree here, with the proper approach over time, they could cover everything with commodity deliveries.
            Quote: Serg65
            Somalia, Ethiopia

            These were for us for the sake of bases. Once they left the bases - money down the drain.
            Quote: Serg65

            Unfortunately, even a wonderful person, Benes Ayo, lives in Donetsk, and does not occupy at least some leading positions in his homeland.

            His homeland is the Soviet Union, he stayed in Riga with his mother. Went to his father. By the way, he is not, as it were, the commander of the Air Force (but I could be mistaken, but definitely a fairly large boss). He himself studied in England , where he joined the Communist Party of England ... An interesting guy .
            Quote: Serg65
            The dollar turned out to be stronger than the complete works of Comrade Lenin!

            This is because the collected works of Comrade Steel are neglected in our country.
            But it is not yet evening, there will be a celebration of the Revolution on the American streets.
            I think so . bully
            1. +4
              5 August 2022 10: 09
              Quote: bayard
              This is a theoretical premise based on the possibilities of the Soviet economy

              If in theory, then probably yes ... in theory, we should have built communism by 1980. But in practice, no one would make this breakthrough ... there are no bad ones laughing
              And it's not about...
              Quote: bayard
              provoke internal discontent and close socialism with the partition of the country and privatization for the right people

              And the fact that for a breakthrough it was necessary to radically revise all the principles of Soviet socialism, and the elderly members of the Politburo and secretaries of the Central Committee could not go for this, so we lived by the principle "let us die in peace, and then at least ride on a broom."
              Well, then the chicks of Andropov's nest came to power ... there is no time for a breakthrough ...
              1. +1
                5 August 2022 14: 04
                Quote: Serg65
                Well, then the chicks of Andropov's nest came to power ... there is no time for a breakthrough ...

                The prerequisites for a breakthrough were ripe just in time for the coming to power of Andropov's chicks - both in terms of time and in facts. The USSR then stood on the threshold of serious scientific and technological breakthroughs - in aircraft engineering, the space industry (engines, carriers), etc. The West was afraid of us precisely as an economic competitor, with its own financial and credit system of international payments. And although oil has become a significant share of income in foreign trade, it was not even close to that part of the income that we have now. Our highly processed goods were exported, our (external) markets were huge. But the country did not have enough competent management of the economy, and prohibitive centralization held back the renewal of the assortment and gave distortions in ordering and sales.
                All that was needed was to smoothly return to the Stalinist multi-structure, destroyed by Khrushchev, and with our potential ... it would not even be a breakthrough, but a take-off from stagnation into space.
                But the task of the Andropyan-Sverdlov chicks was diametrically opposite.
                Quote: Serg65
                If in theory, then probably yes ... in theory, we should have built communism by 1980.

                I meant potential. The USSR then made efforts to enter new markets - not only socialist countries. And we had something. By that time, a whole line of new airliners had guessed - Il-96, Tu-204, Yak-42, new aircraft engines were practically or almost as good as their Western counterparts in efficiency and noise, prices were very competitive, fuel was cheap, and expected in the coming years NK-93 was supposed to generally make our aircraft engines for civil and cargo / transport aircraft unattainable in terms of performance for Western competitors.
                It was decided to sell our weapons not only to the allies, but also to neutral countries, and we had something to offer, and at much more interesting prices. And the best quality.
                Many industries were ready to make a leap into a new quality, but were held back by incorrect or flawed planning. Economic science in the higher echelons then sank heavily, and this subsidence was manageable. Planning at the state level absolutely everything and everything killed the initiative, everyone just waited for directives and then carried them out with more or less zeal. And it was not Stalin's "bison" who were sitting in the State Planning Commission at all (as one of my acquaintances called them, who began his career after the institute, right away in the State Planning Commission even under Stalin).
                Quote: Serg65
                elderly members of the Politburo and secretaries of the Central Committee could not go, so we lived according to the principle "let us die in peace

                By the time the breakthrough was ripe, it was just the young in power - Gorbachev, Ryzhkov and Co. ...but not those.
                Quote: Serg65
                for a breakthrough, it was necessary to radically revise all the principles of Soviet socialism

                It was enough just to go back to the roots - to study the experience of previous unprecedented victories in history, WHAT they were achieved ... but Stalin's work was already banned, and "Spark" and others like it, already dispersed the wave of "Stalinist repressions" and other dirt.
                In those years, I was young and was not familiar with the works of Stalin ... but the dregs from the press drank so much that I almost got poisoned.
                And now the sybarites are in power, who built the country "as under Nicholas-2" (Peskov) ...
    3. -4
      3 August 2022 10: 11
      As a result, the USSR burned out on the fact that the state was not for the people. So simply renaming interests is not a panacea.
      1. -1
        3 August 2022 23: 42
        And what, Putin's state for the people? Then only three people should live in this state: the brothers Rotenberg and Kabaeva.
      2. +3
        4 August 2022 11: 58
        Quote: Jonny_Su
        As a result, the USSR burned out on the fact that the state was not for the people.

        Well, why are you so categorical! A simple Soviet artist, a native of a worker-peasant family, Vladimir Vysotsky traveled around Moscow in a Mercedes, which was not even in the Brezhnev collection ... and you are not talking about people!
    4. +1
      3 August 2022 11: 33
      We have, as it were, 2 nations. Russians and Russians. Russians are ordinary people of any nationality. And Russians are the ruling class with dough over the hill, fun in Courchevel, with lack of jurisdiction and everything that Russians have nothing to do with the word at all.
      1. +3
        4 August 2022 12: 02
        Quote: Taimen
        We seem to have 2 nations. Russians and Russians

        Are you a neo-Nazi? And what do you think our country should be called?
        Quote: Taimen
        And the Russians are the ruling class with dough over the hill, fun in Courchevel, with lack of jurisdiction and everything

        laughing Yeah, especially right now ... foreigners, Courchevel ..
        Quote: Taimen
        why Russians have no relationship from the word at all

        Well, yes ... only Turkey, Thailand and the Maldives remained Russian .... poor, impoverished, zaturkanny people!
    5. Des
      0
      3 August 2022 11: 35
      Yes, the statistics are correct, but there are more faces on the street than others. The statistics are deceiving.
  7. +8
    3 August 2022 06: 41
    Terrible Doctrine. No other land power will dare to sink our cruisers.
    1. +1
      3 August 2022 06: 52
      Quote: Hindu
      Terrible Doctrine. None more land power will not dare to sink our cruisers.
      Do not write nonsense. Power is an independent, independent state. Do you think (I hope you know how) that Dill sank our cruiser? request
    2. +1
      3 August 2022 07: 06
      Yes. With such a doctrine, we are not even afraid of Botswana.
      1. +2
        3 August 2022 10: 39
        You don't give a damn about the Congo!
        1. +2
          3 August 2022 13: 34
          Thus, the doctrine, including the construction of aircraft carriers, just means the possibility of influencing countries like the Congo. Is it bad? Or where our ships were recently arrested?
        2. +4
          4 August 2022 12: 03
          Quote: novel xnumx
          You don't give a damn about the Congo!

          Are you dreaming about Britan Beach?
  8. +3
    3 August 2022 06: 41
    we ready to defend specific goals and objectives, specific relations with other allied countries, more aggressive and efficientthan provided by our highly colloidal diplomatic doctrine. Unfortunately, the foreign diplomatic principles of our country are very vague, something like "for all the good against all the bad."
    Thanks, made me laugh. The Navy, like the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, is just a tool to achieve the goal, when they rejected, without achieving anything, the previous tool, diplomacy. request And since it has "vague principles", it will be tinkered with indefinitely without resorting to the sun. fool From the beginning the "doctrine and ideology" of the Country, hence the "doctrine and ideology" of diplomacy and after that the "doctrine and idea" of the Armed Forces. request
  9. nnm
    +6
    3 August 2022 06: 46
    It is clear that only a specialized specialist can professionally analyze the Doctrine in the first place. Therefore, from my amateur side, I can only say that the success of its implementation is based on the reality of achieving the stated goals and readiness to carry out the stated actions.
    Often, a description of even “Wishlist” that is correct in its essence and form is not a program, but a letter from a child to Del Frost. And to write that we want an aircraft carrier fleet is probably right. But to understand before putting it on paper - and whether the economy, industry, scientific, engineering potential is ready for this, to assess the degree of priority of this particular task in the general list of issues of restoring the fleet - this is completely different. Calculate everything, justify it economically and technically - this is already a program.
    And the second part is about readiness for implementation. - you can talk endlessly about protecting your interests, but writing and declaring one thing, and doing another is like an epic with strikes "on decision-making centers" in our country and the "battle" of the PRC with N. Pelossi's plane.
    And the third component is control. You can even successfully meet the previous two criteria, but then remember Einstein's definition of stupidity as trying to do the same thing and expecting a different result. You can restore the strength of the Navy for an arbitrarily long time, but in the end, a new "Vostochny" will come out every time. Therefore, until we can provide:
    1. Technical, economic, and most importantly - scientific and production potential for every word underlying any program;
    2. Correspondence of words and actually made decisions to what is written on paper;
    3. The complexity of planning - when the same Doctrine being commented on is not accepted as a separate document, but is linked to a dozen more plans and programs. When the words about the construction of aircraft carriers are linked to the industrial development program, the budget, the aviation development program, military education, etc.
    4. Not only control, but also effective personal responsibility of developers and executors of program activities

    then our program will remain a beautifully written document, and reality with this document will habitually intersect only in bravura reports on the development of money
    1. +3
      3 August 2022 08: 00
      Quote: nnm
      Therefore, from my amateurish side, I can only say that the success of its implementation is based on the reality of achieving the stated goals and readiness to carry out the stated actions.

      Welcome soldier
      From my own, also amateurish side, I want to ask ... a lot.
      1. ... but do they realize that we are not the USSR ???
      2. ... and we are aware that the preparatory period for the implementation of plans that were previously in full or partial paddock can be so long and expensive that ... sometimes it’s worth thinking about, but we need to drive it ahead of the locomotive, maybe let it develop naturally. Those. everything necessary is done, but without haste, prudently, efficiently, ACCORDING TO PLAN !!!
      There is also a third, fourth ... but the first two, this is so, significant, seriously, that it will not immediately come to the next points.
      1. The comment was deleted.
    2. -1
      3 August 2022 13: 44
      If you do not immediately aim at aircraft carriers with nuclear power plants, but first build a dozen helicopter carriers, similar to Project 1123 Condor anti-submarine cruisers, at least on the same steam turbines, but with a different set of weapons, then the task does not look impossible.
  10. +7
    3 August 2022 07: 03
    Do Russia need these aircraft carriers in general?
    Yesterday I was looking for oil for a car, so it turned out that Lukoil does not produce it anymore because there is no necessary additive package.
    Maybe it's better to deal with domestic affairs?
    1. 0
      3 August 2022 07: 29
      Quote: Architect
      Maybe it's better to deal with domestic affairs?

      Do you have a house, apartment, garage - locked?

      And let's remove the lock and take care of the interior (garage) arrangement. We will make repairs, buy furniture, electronics - well, everything is like with people ... but the door does not close. How do you like this option? How long will the thieves look at all this? I think not - they will endure everything that you equipped with such difficulty ... So why do you propose to leave Russia without a "castle"?

      "The state is a system of survival, preservation and development of the people."

      The army and navy are a "castle" from "thieves". Only with securely closed "doors" can Russia be equipped. In the 90s, when the "lock" was broken and thrown out, trouble came to Russia. Everything that the people accumulated with such difficulty during the time of the USSR was looted by thieves. No need to step on the same rake.

      ps
      Doctrine is the goal. Only by setting unattainable goals, you can at least achieve something.
      1. -9
        3 August 2022 07: 58
        Aircraft carriers - is it really a castle? So now we don't have a castle? Yes?
        But the construction of aircraft carriers will solve this problem.
        On the example of China, which has been building a fleet for many years, we see how expensive and useless the castle is. But Russia went the other way and was not mistaken.
        1. -1
          3 August 2022 08: 14
          Quote: Expert_Analyst_Forecaster
          Aircraft carriers - is it really a castle?

          It is a one of castle elements.

          Quote: Expert_Analyst_Forecaster
          But the construction of aircraft carriers will solve this problem.

          This will improve the performance against thieves picking the "lock" and increase protection in general.

          Aircraft carriers are needed to conduct global and foreign policy in the interests of the country. As an example - for us to overcome the ban on grain trade around the world. Carrier groupings solve this problem at once.
          1. -5
            3 August 2022 08: 37
            Carrier groupings solve this problem at once.


            But won't these aircraft carriers and K cost ten times more than the profit from the sale of grain?
            And in general, do you think that we can win the arms race at sea against the USA + Japan + Great Britain? There is little chance in my opinion. Rather, we will be left without the rest of the "castle", and there will be nothing to store inside the "garage".
            The idea of ​​comparing fleets is meaningless from the very beginning. Because any serious collision can and will lead to a nuclear war. And then why do we need these intermediate links in the form of a huge fleet?

            The fleet is needed. But we clearly understand what tasks he should solve, and what tasks other types of troops will solve. For example, the Strategic Missile Forces.
            And first you need to create an economy that can quickly and not very expensively, at the same time, build a fleet with high quality.
            In the meantime, for peace and protection of interests, the missile part of the "castle" is enough.
            1. 0
              3 August 2022 08: 48
              Quote: Expert_Analyst_Forecaster
              On the example of China, which has been building a fleet for many years, we see how expensive and useless a castle is...

              The fact that China did not give the United States a reason to deploy its base in Taiwan does not mean that aircraft carrier groups are useless.

              Quote: Expert_Analyst_Forecaster
              can we win the US + Japan + UK naval arms race?

              Our weapons (zircons) have already won this race - they have nullified their entire fleet combined. We can them, but they can't us.

              Quote: Expert_Analyst_Forecaster
              any serious collision can and will lead to nuclear war.

              Nuclear powers will never directly fight each other, and with smaller countries - aircraft carriers are just right.
              1. 0
                3 August 2022 08: 59
                The fact that China did not give the United States a reason to deploy its base in Taiwan does not mean that aircraft carrier groups are useless.


                The second part of the sentence is not clear to me.

                As for US military bases in Taiwan... the next step in putting pressure on China could very well be the threat of US military bases on the island. It is clear that China will protest. It will scare. And then go to a deal with the United States.
              2. +1
                3 August 2022 09: 01
                and with smaller countries - aircraft carriers just right.


                That is, there will be fewer countries to show who is who.
                And what about the economy? Spit?
                1. -3
                  3 August 2022 09: 05
                  Quote: Expert_Analyst_Forecaster
                  That is, there will be fewer countries to show who is who.

                  It is the countries that are less at war with nuclear powers.

                  Quote: Expert_Analyst_Forecaster

                  And first you need to create an economy that can quickly and not very expensively,
                  And what about the economy? Spit?

                  Economy in order for thieves to enjoy our fruits?

                  The construction of an aircraft carrier group provides a huge number of jobs. Starting from geological exploration and training in universities of specialists, designers, ore mining, etc. etc..

                  ps
                  The troops of the Strategic Missile Forces do not take part in the NVO in Ukraine.
            2. +3
              3 August 2022 13: 35
              Quote: Expert_Analyst_Forecaster
              And in general, do you think that we can win the arms race at sea against the USA + Japan + Great Britain?

              We don't need to win the arms race. There is no need to chase parity with the enemy in order to destroy the whole world 3-5-10 times.
              We just need to make sure that the cost of a war with us would be unacceptable for the enemy. Specifically for the fleet, this means that the forces of the Northern Fleet and the Pacific Fleet must ensure that the SSBNs enter the positional areas and their survival for the time necessary to develop, transmit and execute the launch command. The aircraft carrier in this scheme will be a forward fighter aviation airfield, which, before the arrival of the reserve from the coast, will provide timely reinforcement of the duty forces over the ship groups covering the bastion - outside the effective radius of coastal aviation (approximately 300-400 km from the airfield).
              The effective radius is the distance within which the reserve from the shore manages to approach the ships being covered and intercept the enemy strike group before it reaches the anti-ship missile launch line. For for a normal cover, the time for the approach of the reserve should be less than the time interval from the detection of the enemy to the launch of anti-ship missiles. Otherwise, there will be no one to cover the reserve.
              Quote: Expert_Analyst_Forecaster
              The fleet is needed. But we clearly understand what tasks he should solve, and what tasks other types of troops will solve. For example, the Strategic Missile Forces.
              And first you need to create an economy that can quickly and not very expensively, at the same time, build a fleet with high quality.
              In the meantime, for peace and protection of interests, the missile part of the "castle" is enough.

              The ambush is that 40% of our strategic SBCs are located on the SSBNs. Therefore, the rocket part of the castle is also a fleet.
    2. +5
      3 August 2022 09: 13
      Quote: Architect
      Maybe it's better to deal with domestic affairs?

      You can develop one and leave the other. No one interferes with strengthening the defense capability and developing domestic affairs.
    3. 0
      3 August 2022 22: 59
      You know, you should rejoice and thank Vladimir Vladimirovich passionately that your problems at the moment are limited to a lack of oil from LukOil. The situation would have looked completely different if he had given Ukraine the opportunity to attack first. Moreover, things could have been much worse in the current sequence of events.
  11. +2
    3 August 2022 07: 31
    Does anyone else take this bastard seriously? There is no money, but you hold on ...
    1. -5
      3 August 2022 07: 40
      Quote: anclevalico
      There is no money, but you hold on ...

      Are you talking about D. Medvedev? So he seems to have been away for a long time. As soon as they closed his TV "Rain", he is not on the air.
  12. +1
    3 August 2022 08: 39
    Why all this? Do we have a class, an stratum, a group of people who need all these seas? NO!! Only the state and all. This is the main problem since the time of Peter 1. How many times has our state tried to build a fleet and how did it all end?
    1. -5
      3 August 2022 08: 54
      I don’t understand the author’s disdain for ships with 2000 tons of corvettes, but this is the same combat unit and it’s much cheaper and faster to build, and it can be done in large series, and the loss is not as significant as a large ship. and then the ship as a tool can and should be made for a narrow purpose, especially large sizes are not required for a specific task
  13. -5
    3 August 2022 09: 40
    The sole task of the fleet is to ensure the basing and deployment of SSBNs.
    Everything else is rubbish. No fleet protects the citizens of the Russian Federation from betrayal in the form of a robbery of our natural resources, which is happening right now, before our eyes.
    1. +2
      3 August 2022 10: 44
      ensuring the basing and deployment of SSBNs


      So this is the most problematic part. With Finland's entry into NATO, this potentially opens up the deployment of promising (from Prisms to hypersonic OTRKs under development) in the rear near the bases of the northern fleet. That is, it is necessary to create a layered all-round defense. Previously, the threat was from the narrow Norwegian sector and the sea. Potentially, the US and NATO create the conditions for a surprise strike with the destruction of most of the NSNF and the fleet right in the base.

      It’s better not to mention Vilyucha’s condition at all. There is still as much as 1 ICAPL + a pack of non-modernized Albatrosses = that's all the forces to ensure the deployment of the Boreys.
  14. -2
    3 August 2022 10: 00
    In any case, as a result, I want to say that the new Naval Doctrine is still a fairly adequate document. Perhaps the first in the entire modern history of Russia.

    However, there are too many white spots in it, thanks to which the future of our fleet still looks very vague and uncertain. Yes, we have begun to understand where and why the fleet will have to be used. It would also be very good to make it clear where the Fleet will come from, capable of solving such difficult tasks.

    This is not in the Doctrine, but as they say, it is worth starting. Here it is already clear that the implementation of the Doctrine will take more than one year and more than one trillion rubles. This is also an important aspect. But here the fact that at least half of the naval needs were well voiced at the level of a state document plays a positive role.

    I did not understand what the adequacy of the document. Is it really just that "half of the naval needs were well voiced at the level of a state document"? And it's all? Even if it is not clear to the author from this adequate document "where the Fleet will come from, capable of solving such difficult tasks", then what is its adequacy?
    Hmm. The road will be mastered by the walking one, not the trending one.
  15. 0
    3 August 2022 10: 01
    It would first build a fleet, and then make noise with Doctrines ...
    1. +2
      3 August 2022 10: 43
      Touches in the doctrine about the "desire" of the United States to dominate lol God forbid, what are they doing for another 30 years, if not domination?
      1. +3
        3 August 2022 11: 17
        Well, if we talk about the US, then the US is doing one extremely important thing that many people forget about, they form a belt of allies/potential buyers/assistants.

        Here is an example of Rimpak 2022, which takes place against the backdrop of Pelosi's visit:

        Australia with UDC (which will probably receive the same F-35), auxiliary.
        Canada with Winnipeg and Vancouver.
        Japan with the aircraft carrier Izumo (under the F-35) and the destroyer.
        South Korea (the second force of these exercises) - UDC, the most heavily armed destroyer in the world, King Sizhon, a modern frigate and submarine with VNEU.
        India, with a modern Shivalik-type frigate for 2 helicopters, is generally stronger than the Talwars.

        Well, little things, Indonesia (which is now being purchased by military equipment in the United States), Malaysia, Chile with its frigate, Mexico with the latest Sigma.

        The Philippines, which changed the Mi-17 contract for Black Hawks, did not drag the Tarlaks, but dragged the latest Luna frigate bought in Korea


        And these are only those who want to be friends in the Asia-Pacific region with the United States.
        1. 0
          8 August 2022 03: 37
          Australia with UDC (which will probably receive the same F-35), auxiliary.
          Canada with Winnipeg and Vancouver.
          Japan with the aircraft carrier Izumo (under the F-35) and the destroyer.
          South Korea (the second force of these exercises) - UDC, the most heavily armed destroyer in the world

          An important point: the listed countries with the UDC aircraft carrier have access to the purchase of the F-35B. Which, without a doubt, is a unique SKVVP, having almost the same flight characteristics (including the combat radius) as the "traditional" decks.
      2. +2
        3 August 2022 12: 34
        The composition of the ships of the parade, on which a statement about the new Doctrine was made, is touching ...
  16. 0
    3 August 2022 10: 58
    Doctrine is more for the application. This time. Two about all sorts of plans, projects and aircraft carriers should be judged by real cases, and they are such promises:
    The Russian Navy (Navy) will receive by 2020 at least eight of the latest multipurpose nuclear submarines of the Severodvinsk type (project 885, code Ash), Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy, Admiral Vladimir Vysotsky, said in an interview with RIA Novosti.


    For 2022 - 3.

    And you can also remember the plans already with Shoigu - 8 frigates 22350 and 24 corvettes by the year 20.



    The meaning of including an aircraft carrier is again greater, for an understandable application. In the coming years, there is no project (not counting the plastic Storm from Krylovtsy or the hastily redesigned model of Ulyanovsk in 95), no capacity, no chain of cooperation. True, from the minuses, perhaps this will transfer efforts from useful and important projects, like SuperGorshkov, to the reporting topic of the Aircraft Carrier, in order to present the results to Putin and the public.
    1. 0
      8 August 2022 04: 02
      And you can also remember the plans already with Shoigu - 8 frigates 22350 and 24 corvettes by the year 20.

      These figures refer to the pre-war period, now everything has changed a lot down.
      This article does a good job of explaining:
      https://topwar.ru/197950-mobilizacionnyj-korabl-dlja-vmf-v-uslovijah-sankcij.html#comment-id-12730238
  17. -3
    3 August 2022 11: 16
    Before you make ocean, sea, lake and river aircraft carriers, you can think about whether it’s worth making several hundred missile, artillery and torpedo boats and armored boats, landing barges, minesweepers in place of only one aircraft carrier. You can think about the mobilization and arming of civilian courts.
    And even better, in place of one aircraft carrier, increase the ground forces by about two times to the number of Turkish ground forces. If the ground forces are increased to the size of the DPRK, one more aircraft carrier must be donated.
    1. +1
      3 August 2022 17: 28
      Quote: Kostadinov
      Better yet, in place of one aircraft carrier, approximately double the ground forces

      And fly to Mars, and assign a pension of $ 1500 daily to all citizens of the Russian Federation.
      And so - the cost of maintaining the ground forces in 2015 - about 600 billion rubles. - this is still in those prices when the construction of the AB was estimated at 80-100 billion rubles. Only AB has been under construction for at least 10 years .... So good luck :))))))
  18. +9
    3 August 2022 11: 44
    The fleet treated us to two disgraceful things. The first is when he was unable to supply a very small Syrian group of the Russian army and the Aerospace Forces. And I had to buy all the suitable bulk carriers and tankers from everyone in a row in a fire mode. Even in Ukraine.

    The fleet just completed the supply task. Having mobilized the BDK and the vessels of the auxiliary fleet for this matter.
    It turned out to be a disgrace that the state did not find civilian ships in state ownership, which, after mobilization into the Navy, would have removed the task of supplying the army and the air force in Syria from warships.
    Where are they? For example, "Vladimir Vaslyaev" - the last of the gas turbine ro-ro type "Captain Smirnov"? And he is in the command of the sea transportation of a potential enemy called USNS LCPL Roy M. Wheat.

    It is not a fleet that is needed to supply overseas bases in a low-intensity conflict. You need a shipping command or a state shipping company. The fleet only provides these ships with protection - with its flag and, if necessary, with ships and aircraft.
  19. -5
    3 August 2022 12: 17
    Everything! Here is a summary of a highly professional armchair strategist symposium:
    "The doctrine is not needed in FIG - you must first build 100500 aircraft carriers, UDCs and large landing crafts, nuclear submarines, battleships, cruisers, etc., etc., but then WE will tell them there to write in the entoy dactrine itself!".
  20. -1
    3 August 2022 12: 19
    This is an old floating scrap metal, the combat value of which is zero.
    It just reminded me: "Ah, it's you, an old floating suitcase!" laughing
  21. 0
    3 August 2022 19: 54
    But we (they) have the largest yacht fleet with the largest yachts.
  22. -2
    3 August 2022 20: 04
    Quote: donavi49
    So this is the most problematic part. With Finland's entry into NATO, this potentially opens up the deployment of promising

    It is not the Finns who are to blame, but the leadership of the Russian Federation, it was not necessary to feed the Baltic states, Finland and Ukraine with the people's resources.
  23. 0
    3 August 2022 20: 58
    Who is lobbying for this naval nonsense? Protect at least the coastal zone. The threat of declaring a naval blockade looms very real.
    Deal with real problems. What are the plans for the destruction of at least the enemy's Donbass grouping? When will shells stop falling on Donetsk?!
  24. -1
    3 August 2022 21: 16
    There is a Russian proverb: "Stretch your legs according to your clothes." If there were money, there would be developments, samples, and series. In the meantime, only enough for those who have no analogues for parades. So - we look zomboyaschik and dream.
  25. 0
    3 August 2022 21: 17
    I have a question for the author of the article. All this is good that they have decided on the doctrine. The management is confident that on land everything will soon be sorted out, so it continues to spend money, don’t understand something like tank biathlon avidars. (Although it is no secret that the soldiers are not equipped enough and much more) And the ongoing repair, so to speak ... of the ship Admiral Kuznetsov. (Because its status is not clear as well as its purpose). That's how this can fit into the doctrine of I about Kuznetsov.
  26. 0
    3 August 2022 21: 39
    The new Naval Doctrine has finally appeared, as a holiday gift from the president.

    Well, now we will discuss this "doctrine" until the second coming.
    On this occasion, I would like to recall a line from Vysotsky's old song: "Once upon a time, one sorcerer, a liar, a talker and a laughter ..."
    In the current situation, this wonderful "doctrine" is hopeless darkness, complete bluff and pure, naked lies!
    However, as always.
    Don't get used to...
  27. -6
    3 August 2022 22: 16
    another struggle of fantasy with the ruble. Even Shoigu, after 14 years, the budget for rearmament was cut, by the way, the lack of UAVs is a direct consequence of that sequestration, but for some reason they forget about it. And now we can only dream of building a fleet. Or we will start building but finish like the USSR, with ships, but without pants.
  28. 0
    4 August 2022 04: 42
    Now everything is clear with the Kuznetsov, we do not have and are not expected to have aircraft carriers, we can relax. However, this will not cancel the absence in the Doctrine of decoding how the fleet should operate.

    Aviki must be done, despite any difficulties. Ideally, 4 pieces, 2 each for the Northern and Pacific Fleets, with a nuclear power plant.
    And escort destroyers, preferably with a similar power plant.
    Infrastructure will be needed to service these ships in the Far East and in the area where the Northern Fleet is deployed.
  29. 0
    4 August 2022 11: 38
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Quote: Kostadinov
    Better yet, in place of one aircraft carrier, approximately double the ground forces

    And fly to Mars, and assign a pension of $ 1500 daily to all citizens of the Russian Federation.
    And so - the cost of maintaining the ground forces in 2015 - about 600 billion rubles. - this is still in those prices when the construction of the AB was estimated at 80-100 billion rubles. Only AB has been under construction for at least 10 years .... So good luck :))))))

    1. Mars is a good idea. The USSR has already flown to both Mars and Venus with automatic stations. You can send a rover, you can deliver soil from Mars to Earth. For Russia's prestige in the world and for the development of technology, this will be incomparably better than a few aircraft carriers.
    2. More pensions are even better, but for this you don’t need to cut any aircraft carriers. Enough not to keep money from gas exports in European banks. Only 400 billion euros stolen by European banks per 50 million pensioners will be 8 euros per pensioner. Even if it's only once, it's good.
    3. After construction, an aircraft carrier also needs to be maintained, and they make weapons for it and equip bases and do repairs, and pay salaries to sailors and base personnel, and build escort ships and also keep them, and so on. So there is no need to compare the construction of an aircraft carrier with the maintenance of ground forces. Construction and maintenance are two different things. At the same time, an aircraft carrier needs specially trained personnel, and there are enough conscripts for the ground forces.
    The construction of an aircraft carrier and its armament can be compared, for example, with the production of rocket and artillery weapons for the ground forces.
  30. +2
    4 August 2022 17: 38
    Russian Naval Doctrine:

    this is a coastal fleet ...
    and the fleet of the oceans is this one
    yacht price:
    Michelson - $130 million
    Sechin - $190 million
    Prokhorov - $200 million
    Rashnikov - $400 million.
    Melnichenko - $435 million
    Abramovich - $460 million
    Usmanov - $800 million
    what help would the Russian Navy have if all this was confiscated in time, sold, and the money was spent on new submarines and ships ...
    now, almost all of it is arrested...

  31. 0
    5 August 2022 08: 28
    . "Why not start slowly returning?"
    Write correctly. But for the last 30 years, people who are only capable of destroying have been in power! And those who only destroy are not capable of building! Yes, and Shoigu, after Serdyukov, who walked with a red-hot iron through our army, did not build anything. He only stopped the process, but did not restore what was destroyed. Therefore, this doctrine is for "cutting" the budget, most likely.
  32. 0
    6 August 2022 00: 48
    Since the 90s, the army has been the most painful topic for our country. Since the end of the 80s, the fleet has practically been thrown into oblivion, g.v. The concept of collapse continues. Ask yourself what have we created new? Zircons? It began to be developed back in Soviet times. "Funny fleet" Patrol ships of project 22160))). Over the past 20 years, we have declared so much ... "There was strength while the mother wore a pot .."
  33. 0
    8 August 2022 03: 33
    I would say that Assad was saved by a miracle, by transferring normal planes to normal airfields. And already from these airfields the terrorists were more or less enlightened. It cost, of course, astronomical sums

    Now the position of Assad largely depends on the good (or not so) will of Turkey. And she has nothing corny to oppose.
  34. 0
    8 August 2022 10: 24
    Especially, by the way, Libyan is indicative. Let's remember if Russia had a fleet capable of coming to the Libyan shores and saying: “We are against your aviation flights,” even without an aircraft carrier (and a couple of dozen light fighters are not needed there, it’s enough to bristle with something like the S-400 ), with the help of ships with decent air defense, it would be possible to disrupt all air operations against Gaddafi's army.

    Do you think if the Russian fleet had been allocated a frigate with an S-400, to Tripoli, etc. The Allies did not dare to launch an air operation?
  35. 0
    9 August 2022 11: 34
    Why we need bases to ensure the presence of Russian ships on distant shores is still completely incomprehensible. But it doesn't cost five roubles...

    This is a question to which there is no answer))) Military bases are needed where powerful arteries of economic, or at worst foreign policy, protective interests pass. Do we have those in Cuba or Yemen? After all, geography is an inexorable thing - in order to get to Cuba, we will have to literally crawl past NATO countries several times, or scratch across the Pacific Ocean and go around LA - and now, is this possible in the event of at least some conflict situation? Not such a base will protect the Russian Federation, but the Russian Federation will have to be stacked with bones in order to protect and supply such a base. The same, although to a somewhat lesser extent, applies to our African initiatives - any of their supply will take place through Suez, past Japan and South Korea (the fiefdoms of NATO control), bypassing Africa and, accordingly, past the whole variety of NATO fleet control.
    But the issues of the inconvenience of geography and meager economic and political interests are only part of the puzzle. An essential part of the problem is the lack of an "extra" fleet for all these fun adventures in different directions. We have very large water areas of our own and a deteriorating surface fleet, which already looks weak against the background of the fleets of neighboring states - especially in the Pacific Ocean.
    Any separation of ships from existing forces only exacerbates this disproportion, while not working for real security, because now it’s not World War II - a large ship in the ocean is found quickly and quite precessionally.
    The third factor is definitely the economy. What kind of babosiki will we build the fleet for, as the president seems to have put it "with the construction of large aircraft carrier ships", warrants for them, renew the fleet of the "inland seas", create and maintain these external military bases? Given that the entire western flank of our economy has crumbled outwards, that the world is still experiencing the worst post-COVID economic downturn? After all, in addition to all this, after February 24, a number of primary areas of "pumping" were revealed - the aviation industry, and communications, and UAVs, and building up the production of high-precision weapons and updating the tank fleet, and so on and so forth. Where does the money come from, Zin?

    I summarize - stop dreaming about external databases.
  36. -2
    3 September 2022 10: 16
    Everything is wrong. There are no admirals of the scale of Gorshkov who are able to think, and not to cut budgets, there is no VPR capable of thinking, there are no leaders of industry and industry itself, there are no engineers capable of designing, there are no workers ...
  37. 0
    10 September 2022 20: 13
    The fleet is a very expensive pleasure. We have already squandered oil revenues on the sacred bridge (which is not really needed now - you can get to the Crimea anyway), olympiads, championships, funds stolen by the West. It would be better if they voiced the doctrine of creating modern engines, without which all other doctrines are empty air shaking.
  38. 0
    3 October 2022 16: 45
    Seafarers can smoke Bamboo on the shore until the end of the NWO wassat tongue
  39. 0
    8 October 2022 08: 46
    Kuzya will be restored, those who say that he is a trough (the author of the "article"), so in fact any aircraft carrier is a trough, that's how they are arranged. Those who say that it is easier to abandon a new building, why are they in no hurry to give up their apartment if a fire occurs inside. My processor in my computer is broken - you can say the heart of the PC, but I didn’t go to throw out the monitor and everything else. It is not easier to build a new aircraft carrier, it is several times more difficult and expensive, but the result is about the same, a saucer trough. Aircraft carriers in modern missile warfare are not viable, with their cost flying into the sky, but they are quite suitable for all sorts of small conflicts like the Syrian one, so the modernized Kuzya is more than suitable.
  40. 0
    21 October 2022 16: 21
    In the North-East Military District, the complete dominance is not only of our Aerospace Forces, but also of the Navy. We need to make more active use of the submarine fleet and coastal defense military units. Submarines can covertly carry out many military operations, from launching missile strikes to landing troops and performing operational combat operations on the Black Sea coast currently occupied by Bandera. Missile military coastal defense units of the Black Sea Fleet can already now completely destroy Bandera military airfields, command posts, warehouses, accumulations of manpower and weapons of Bandera on the Black Sea coast in the Odessa and Nikolaev regions. Good luck to you guys! Be active and bold!
  41. -1
    26 October 2022 10: 43
    And how is the process of "doctrination" built in general? Who manages it, who participates, how is the composition of participants determined, what are the rules? About three months ago, two respectable husbands rode next to me in a peregrine falcon from Moscow to St. Petersburg. From the conversations (there is a sin, I can listen to smart and interesting conversations), I realized that these are people associated with the development and production for the needs of the fleet (specifically, at that time they were talking about robotics and autonomous robotics). The main thing that I understood until they brought cognac is that the leadership of the fleet does not have a clear and AGREED vision of further development. It was sad to hear.